459: Steven Grayhm—Sheepdog

Mike meets actor, writer, and director Steven Grayhm https://stevengrayhm.com/, whose award-winning film Sheepdog https://www.sheepdogthemovie.com/ is about to hit theaters. Steven breaks down how a three-hour ride with a tow truck driver led him on a 14-year odyssey to get to the truth about veteran post-traumatic stress. It's a conversation about grit, service, sacrifice, and the complicated realities faced by the men and women who stand their post long after the uniform comes off. Steven's passion for telling their stories with honesty and respect shines through every frame of Sheepdog, and every minute of this conversation.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  Hello friends, it's The Way I Heard It. I'm Mike Rowe. My guest today is Stephen Graham. He made a movie called Sheep Dog. It is remarkable. And Chuck, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I do believe it made you cry like a 10-pound baby girl.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  I told you that in confidence, Mike. Yes. It made me cry. It made a young woman by the name of Tracy cry. It stuck with us for days.

• 0:26Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. I'm not going to tell you why the movie is called Sheep Dog. You're smart. You'll figure it out. But this is, I'm going to call it a passion project. Stephen Graham is an actor who's been kicking around now for some time, but he's spent the last 13, 14 years getting this independent film made. And it is, I'll say, an unflinching, gritty, super honest look at post-traumatic stress, what it does to an individual, what it does to the loved ones, what it does within a community, and a potential way out.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  It's getting praise from a lot of real vets who are seeing it and saying, "I want to show this to my family because it nailed it."

• 1:16Mike Rowe?

  And I wish my ex-wife could have seen this. I wish my kids, from whom I'm estranged, could have seen this, or will see this. You know, there's so much about this topic that is difficult. You know, it's difficult. People don't flock to the theater, and they don't buy books, and they don't watch TV shows that deals with this topic because it is heavy. But, as you guys know, you know, we've been trying as best we can for a long time, in my little company, to shine a light on lots of different ways to deal with post-traumatic

• 1:56Mike Rowe?

  stress. And this film does it in a very ambitious way. I didn't know this guy, Stephen Graham.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  The audience might know him from White Chicks.

• 2:05Mike Rowe?

  Yes.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  He got his butt...

• 2:06Mike Rowe?

  With Terry Crews.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  He wound up in a wheelchair because of Terry Crews, I think.

• 2:10Mike Rowe?

  In a most unfortunate...

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Yet hilarious way.

• 2:14Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. But who knew he was a screenwriter and a director and the star of this film? And who knew this Canadian kid who studied in England cared so deeply about this country and about our military and wanted so very much to create this love letter around an issue that actually matters? It's, um, I mean, I hate to say it, but it's a very important film.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  I would agree, and he wouldn't be here if it weren't for a US serviceman, and I'll let him tell the story in there. But I do want to say about this movie, first of all, that it stuck with me really hard. You know, I called you immediately and said, "Hey, Ben, this is really something." This movie has won 15 awards in the film festival circuits, including Best Actor and Best Screenplay.

• 3:08Mike Rowe?

  Best Screen.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:10Mike Rowe?

  Both of which, you know, Stephen Graham did.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 3:13Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. He spells his last name Funny, and he'll explain why right out of the gate. And then we'll have a conversation that I hope you'll share, because people ought to see the movie, and they, I think, look, there are a lot of ways to say thanks and to be grateful and to acknowledge what's happened to a lot of men and women who put on the uniform. It's important to do that, but to Chuck's point, it does stick with you. I just watched the film in real time last night. If you're listening to this now, it's probably because the film is about to be released in theaters nationwide. My advice is to check it out. It's thoughtful.

• 3:56Mike Rowe?

  It's a great use of the word sheepdog, which frankly, I haven't heard enough since the Bugs Bunny Road Runner Hour.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Well, I just want to say that I believe it will be in limited release in December, and it will be nationally distributed in January.

• 4:11Mike Rowe?

  Find it. See it. It's called Sheepdog by Stephen Graham. You'll meet him next.

• 4:22Mike Rowe?

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• 5:07Mike Rowe?

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• 5:48Mike Rowe?

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• 6:00Mike Rowe?

  Stephen, are you prepared to be interesting for roughly 90 minutes?

• 6:03Speaker 02

  I hope so, yeah.

• 6:05Mike Rowe?

  Me too. Hey, thank you for coming. From where did you come?

• 6:09Speaker 02

  I'm from Western Massachusetts. That's where I'm currently living with my wife and my 13th month old.

• 6:16Mike Rowe?

  And where you filmed this amazing movie.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  Thank you, yeah. Sheepdog, yes. I wanted, we'll get into the film details, but just-

• 6:22Mike Rowe?

  You bet we will.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  But just about Western Massachusetts and why that was so important. So my wife's from there. She grew up there. I grew up a little six hours north of that, like just across the Canadian border. And I did 21 years in LA. My wife did 10 of those last 21.

• 6:40Mike Rowe?

  So funny when people say that. It's like, it's the same way you talk about prison.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, anyone that's lived here that long is like they're with the city underwent a lot of changes. And you know, and we were blessed that she got pregnant and like anyone in that situation, you gotta make some big decisions.

• 6:56Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  And you know, it's no longer about yourself and you know, so we went back to Western Mass. And, uh, and that's where we currently are and, and it's great for so many reasons.

• 7:08Mike Rowe?

  Let me say, as we get into your film and a whole lot of other things, um, I watched it last night. I so appreciate that you made it. I loved watching it most of the time, but I gotta be honest, man. There were parts of it, and I'm, I'm in this world. The combination of grit and like unflinching reality around this issue. PTS. Did we say the D anymore or is it just PTS?

• 7:38Speaker 02

  I don't like to say it, but yeah.

• 7:41Mike Rowe?

  I mean, it's so well acted and it's so poignant, but there are moments where it's as real as a great doc. But before I even got pulled into the story or anything else, I got pulled into Western Mass. Those drone shots or did you use a West cam, did you use helicopter?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  No, those were drone shots. Yeah, that's, uh, TJ Millard is, was our aerial cinematographer. He does all Taylor Sheridan stuff.

• 8:06Mike Rowe?

  Keep him.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  He's a veteran.

• 8:07Mike Rowe?

  Keep him.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  He's a, just a wonderful human being and yeah.

• 8:10Mike Rowe?

  My compliments because I'm, I'm such a stickler for, uh, for place.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:17Mike Rowe?

  You know, like in novels and movies, it's sometimes you just get such a sense of the place. And you can't do it with exposition and you can't do it with like, you know, monologues. You just have to show it and somehow get the, uh, what do they call it? The, uh, the patois.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:36Mike Rowe?

  Right? And you got it in drone shots. You got it in the interior of that paper mill.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  A real paper mill?

• 8:44Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, it was, and I've been in a few and I looked at that.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:47Mike Rowe?

  And right, and I said out loud, "Holy shit, that's a real paper mill."

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:51Mike Rowe?

  Obviously have closed right and left. So I guess the word is verisimilitude. Um, and your movie is filled with it. And congrats, man, because I know that was not easy to make and it must have took a long time.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a 14-year journey to today, sitting here in front of you. And I never-

• 9:09Mike Rowe?

  It all comes to this.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it does. And, and you know, and thank you for allowing it to come to this.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, you know, spent years on the road, sitting in front of veterans, and I'll get to the, the genesis story, but, but just speaking about Western Massachusetts, it was imperative that as the storyteller, as the screenwriter, that if I'm holding up the mirror, I have to be authentic. I can't judge the characters. And I have to show the audience the truth. And Western Massachusetts was perfect because everywhere I had gone across the country, I was going to a lot of small towns, a lot of working-class folks, especially those that serve in the military. Mental health workers, same thing. Um, and I wanted it to reflect that.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  We were very fortunate, just in terms of the paper mill. That paper mill shut down in 2017. My brother-in-law, uh, who worked his butt off there for years, uh, he had a contact and the guy who ran the mill, and they let us in there. And, um, because it needed to be authentic. It needed to be, I mean, even the pulp, that was real pulp, you know, that's, it's not even paper. It's actually like cotton rags.

• 10:27Mike Rowe?

  Why is it important that the detail like that-

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 10:31Mike Rowe?

  In a film like this-

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:34Mike Rowe?

  Because one- Be so right.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  One false note and you're dead.

• 10:37Mike Rowe?

  And the whole song-

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a house of cards. Yeah. And I knew that. And oftentimes when I'm asked, like, what was the hardest part of the 14-year journey? It was getting it right.

• 10:50Mike Rowe?

  Why do you know that? When did you learn that the devil truly lives in the details?

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Okay, I can answer that probably in two parts. When I learned the responsibility of what I was embarking on, wasn't until I met with the first veteran that I met with in 2011 in McAllen, Texas, George Rice.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  I was idealistic. I set up cameras just like this. And he was very open and he was lovely. And then we cut the cameras and broke for lunch. That's when he pulled me aside and he was like, hey, so you're the screenwriter? And I didn't know at the time if I was gonna write a screenplay. I was journaling. I was just trying to get the story of like, understanding what was going on in our country. And he began to open up about a military operation that now, you've seen the film. My character talks about it. In the film, it's loosely inspired by these events. But at the end of that conversation, off-camera, he took off his in memoriam band that had the name of three of his fallen brothers. And he held it out to me and he said, "Don't let me down."

• 11:58Speaker 02

  And I remember in that moment, I did not want to take the band. And he said again, "Don't let me down."

• 12:04Mike Rowe?

  You have to take the band.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  And I did. And I got in the car. And I remember my co-star in the film, Matt Dallas, he did, you know, he went on the road with me. And we sat there in the car in silence and we knew we had bit off more than we can chew. We had no background. We had no, there was nothing to equip us but our curiosity and the sense of responsibility that we felt. But we didn't know what we were doing. And we sat there and I remember thinking, well, the easy path right now is to go back to LA and just call it a day and go like, hey, we're not cut out for this. Or I take this band and I continue on. And that was the summer of 2011. So there was no way to, if you were gonna continue onwards through the country, that

• 12:49Speaker 02

  you could ever, there was, inauthentic wasn't an option. Right? It wasn't. Shooting the movie, all I wanted to do was, you know, in telling the truth and telling people's stories, hundreds of people that we met with.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  I wanted to do them a service to be like to represent their lives as best as I knew how to. That wasn't a glossy Hollywood story or movie. I raised all the production budget, independent financing, out of Texas. I had no studio notes. I took a lot of script notes from people I trusted in the veteran community, mental health community. But I didn't have anyone trying to, I had no agenda personally, but I didn't have anybody looking over my shoulder with an agenda. And that's how-

• 13:41Mike Rowe?

  Other than your soul and your conscience-

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:44Mike Rowe?

  And the incredible weight of the project that you assumed. I want people to understand something. I've done, I don't know, maybe 14 stories about vets and various organizations that are trying to help people like the character you portrayed who are struggling so terribly with this stuff. But I live in a very, very specific kind of TV land where there's no pre-production.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:14Mike Rowe?

  There's really no second takes in my world. There's no casting. There's no, very, very, very little of that. And so I have, I have a certain amount of freedom to move and pivot and zig and zag fast. I can touch things like they're hot.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:34Mike Rowe?

  In relative terms.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:36Mike Rowe?

  You can't.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:37Mike Rowe?

  You're in a whole different type of world. So I think it's important for people to understand that, you know, I get a certain amount of credit for trying to shine a light on this issue, but I can do it quick. I don't know that I would have bitten off the bite you bit.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  It was terrifying.

• 14:58Mike Rowe?

  It had to-

• 14:59Speaker 02

  It was terrifying.

• 15:00Mike Rowe?

  I feel like if I listen carefully, I can hear the echo of your sphincter slamming shut 14 years down the road.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Echoing.

• 15:08Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. Through the heartland.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Look, I-

• 15:15Speaker 02

  I was surrounded by good people. I was surrounded by people, Gold Star family members.

• 15:19Mike Rowe?

  You cast them.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  I did, five of them. And, um, and then I was just, you know, people that, veterans that would check in and make sure everything was okay and.

• 15:30Mike Rowe?

  How many vets in the movie altogether?

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Seventeen, seventeen, yeah. And, um, and why that was important too, not just in the storytelling, but through my production company, Team House Studios. You know, our mission is to hire and train veterans and Gold Star family members in front of the camera and behind the camera. And, you know, what I had learned very quickly was that, and this is not my opinion, this is just from the feedback from vets that have worked on our set, was a return to the camaraderie. So if you put a group of veterans, say, in an Airbnb and they're sharing a house, when you wrap and they go home and they're eating chow together, there's a sense of camaraderie that they miss from the service that they get again, you know? A lot of people don't

• 16:15Speaker 02

  realize this, filmmaking, you're working with your hands, you know? And it's a very blue collar job and it doesn't get glossy and all the Hollywood nonsense until you get to the red carpet. But the actual making of the movie, I mean, you're moving C stands and sandbags, I mean, you know this, right?

• 16:30Mike Rowe?

  Sandbags, they'll move themselves.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  You're doing it up and down sewers. But, and then the hours are wild, right? So just to touch on what you've been doing in your work too, because this is a good, this tethers very well to why that is the mission of the production company. Veterans show up on time, they'll stay late. As you've said in your own words, they'll tuck in their shirt. They don't whine, right? And I don't want to like ever blanket statement something, but I say this with so much honor and pride, that's only been my experience.

• 17:03Mike Rowe?

  They want the ball. It's the top of the ninth, the bases are loaded.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:07Mike Rowe?

  Give me the ball.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Yep, yep.

• 17:09Mike Rowe?

  So, yeah, I don't, you know. Uh, that's a quality to search for.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:14Mike Rowe?

  And it's easier to find in the cohort you're describing.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:18Mike Rowe?

  For sure.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:19Mike Rowe?

  And so many other things, you know, that it's all, I think you're talking about soft skills.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:24Mike Rowe?

  Basically, you know, and yeah, it's a, it's hard to even talk about that in the real world. Certainly in a traditional HR department, in a traditional company, you know, let's sit down and talk about how to train your employees to behave.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:40Mike Rowe?

  It's, it's good luck.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And I think it's interesting because for me out in Western Massachusetts, there's a technical school, it's Franklin County Technical. And my wife has childhood friends that went there. And again, I, I don't want to generalize here, but I'm just saying they're all flourishing. They work very hard.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  From what I understand, they're all happy. And, you know, they have a, there's a sense of purpose out there. Many of them are like family to me. That's been like, think about that shift from Los Angeles to, to being in that, in that kind of environment, and it's been very healthy for me.

• 18:18Mike Rowe?

  It's a sea change.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially being someone who grew up, you know, on my grandparents' fruit farm. Like, it's been really good for me.

• 18:25Mike Rowe?

  What kind of fruit?

• 18:30Mike Rowe?

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• 19:15Mike Rowe?

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• 19:59Mike Rowe?

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• 20:12Speaker 02

  Okay, grapes. Strawberries are probably the hardest to pick because you're bent over and apples, cherries. And then there was, in the early days, a little bit of livestock, just for milk and so on. But I remember going with my grandmother. My mom's parents are Polish immigrants. And we would go to the market with whatever we picked, you know, to sell it. And that's how I spent most of my summers if I wasn't playing baseball.

• 20:43Mike Rowe?

  Why is your last name spelled so funny?

• 20:45Speaker 02

  You know, it's a long story, which I actually haven't told, so here we go.

• 20:53Mike Rowe?

  Okay.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  You can't have two names in the union. And...

• 21:00Mike Rowe?

  In the Screen Actors Guild.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 21:02Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  And I remember, you know, my early manager at the time, my agent was like, oh, you might have to change your name and everything. And I didn't want to change. I'd heard stories that Leo DiCaprio, he had a manager that said, change your name to Lenny Williams. Your name is too ethnic or something. And yeah, and it's just so ridiculous. Thank God he didn't.

• 21:21Mike Rowe?

  Hey, Chuck used to be... He called Brad Pitt once.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Didn't work out.

• 21:25Mike Rowe?

  Didn't stick.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  And so I didn't, I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my parents. I'm like, I don't want to change my name. Do I go with my middle name? And my mom was like drawing out letters and whatever. And she with me at the table said, okay, there you go. And that's it. And I never looked back.

• 21:40Mike Rowe?

  She just, you, you basically, you're just playing Wheel of Fortune with your mom.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it, uh, that's, you know, what they had asked that I had to do or whatever, but I, look, I wasn't gonna go with, you know, Steven Sweetwater or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, are you joking?

• 21:59Mike Rowe?

  You mean the Western Massachusetts Sweetwaters?

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:03Mike Rowe?

  I read about you guys.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  So, yeah, that's just one of the things. I mean, it's funny because, you know, I read in Harrison Ford's biography that at the time he was joining the union, there was already a Harry Ford or a Harrison Ford, and he was gonna have to change his name. And I believe it was, don't quote me, but it might've been like a jazz musician or something. And on the day he was gonna change his name, the gentleman, may he rest in peace, I don't know who he is, passed away and he got to keep his name.

• 22:32Mike Rowe?

  Well, there you go.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  And it could have been, you know,

• 22:34Mike Rowe?

  Something.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Charlie Ford, stars in.

• 22:37Mike Rowe?

  Frank.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, Return of the Jedi.

• 22:38Mike Rowe?

  Is Han Solo.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:40Mike Rowe?

  No, I had a heck of a time with a guy named Mike Rowe, who had bought micro.com years ago. And he didn't do anything with it. He just held it. And, you know, I, I learned later that he, he basically bought the thing like in season three of Dirty Jobs.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 22:56Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. He watched the show and he's like, you know what? I think this son of a bitch is gonna do something with his life. And he bought it because it was his name too. And, uh, we eventually reached out and say, hey, look, if you're not using it, can I, can I, can I buy it from you?

• 23:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:11Mike Rowe?

  And you know what? He simply asked for too much. And so I passed.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:18Mike Rowe?

  And then he passed. And then.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  I mean, you got it.

• 23:21Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, I got it. Yeah.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  What is the moral of this story? Of both of these stories?

• 23:25Mike Rowe?

  Well, I think one moral is patience.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:30Mike Rowe?

  Like, it's very Shakespearean, what's in a name?

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:34Mike Rowe?

  Right? You know, it just seems like.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:36Mike Rowe?

  But it's also really, I mean, we hear these stories, but I'm always fascinated by them because, like, I wonder if I'd be sitting here talking to you today had had my name been Zach, which it was for 24 hours, apparently. But my mom had second thoughts. And so, you know, does Stephen Graham, by a different spelling, wind up taking a different road? Or Stephen becomes Simon? Or Sven?

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, no, no, it's funny that you say that because it definitely, at the time, it was because I booked a gig, right? So you have to make that decision there, you're joining the union.

• 24:08Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  At the time, I was in university, was in my second year, and I was pretty sure I was gonna go pre-med, and I was pretty sure I, I don't know, maybe I wasn't gonna do that, right? And so I think it definitely, oddly, if we're talking about consonants in a last name, it definitely, whatever reason, defined a different path. Because I went all in. I went all in. I, to my parents' devastation, I, it was very expensive, I was on an academic scholarship, but, you know, it didn't cover all of it. I was staring down the barrel of tens of thousands of dollars.

• 24:47Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  And I jumped ship. I was like, I'll just, you know, and I moved to Vancouver, Canada at the time, and.

• 24:55Mike Rowe?

  To act.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  To act, right. But I had, I have to say, I did train classically, I had studied at the Royal Academy in England and everything, like, so this all was in that year of, like, dropping out. And I moved to Vancouver, Canada, and I was very fortunate to work right away. And it was, I moved to Vancouver, I didn't know a soul, so you're kind of redefining yourself, but you're still yourself. Like, I never, I felt more me because there was no guardrails or there was no training wheels. It was all in. And I was very fortunate. And then within those, gosh, I don't know, two or three years, I booked work, I was able, and that's when I moved to Los Angeles, and then. There was no looking back.

• 25:38Mike Rowe?

  It is interesting if you think about what happens when you change your geography.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:43Mike Rowe?

  Right, and we started with geography, but it really influences. Your surroundings have an undeniable influence on who you become. I think your name also has an influence.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:57Mike Rowe?

  On your identity. And to be forced, or at least asked.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:02Mike Rowe?

  At the, you know, tip of a sword to change it if you want the gig.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:07Mike Rowe?

  I mean, it's like this one more example of, all right, I am transforming in a lot of different ways. Your movie is about identity. It's about transforming. It's about what happens to a guy who goes in to hell with a band of brothers and comes out different.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 26:27Mike Rowe?

  And then, what's he do? He can't fix his problem, the character you play, Cole.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Calvin Cole, yeah.

• 26:36Mike Rowe?

  Calvin Cole.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Sergeant Cole, yeah.

• 26:37Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, he can't fix his problems by buying a vowel or juxtaposing some letters. And he can't fix his problems by moving to a new town. His problems, you know, are up there in the undiscovered.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think it was really important to me in the storytelling to, like, Calvin is not broken. There might be fragments, but he is not broken and he does not feel sorry for himself, you know? And I think that, you know, if I share with you now the genesis of how I got to doing the research and why I'd love to tell you, because that really connects to the character that I thought was important to play. So, beginning of 2011, speaking of Vancouver, I'm shooting up there, but I'm now, I'm living in LA. I shoot a film up there, I rap on it, and I drove through the night, as I typically would do when I would go up to Canada. Three hours north of the city, my car breaks down and.

• 27:33Mike Rowe?

  North of LA?

• 27:33Speaker 02

  LA, yeah. And I call AAA and they send the local tow guy out. And so this guy shows up and he was like, oh, we're driving all the way into LA. Yep, and he's like, alright, well saddle up, partner. We got a long ride in there. I'm exhausted because I've been driving through the night, so I'm kind of nodding off, you know, falling asleep. And he just started to to open up to me. And he started to talk about the challenges of his marriage, of being the father of three, his financial hardship. And then he began to open up about all of the medications that he was on for his post-traumatic stress from his military service, multiple deployments.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  I don't think I said three words on that drive. I just listened. And I remember throughout this, you know, one-sided conversation, that he kept saying to me, I can't believe I'm telling you this. I've never told my wife. I can't believe I'm telling you this. I haven't even told a therapist this, and so on. We get back to Los Angeles. I thank him for getting me home safe. Give him a hug. I'm like, brother, if you ever need anything, I'm here. You ever want to grab a beer? And I looked into his eyes and I was certain that there was comfort for him to never see me again. And I was like, alright, you know? I couldn't stop thinking about him that week. And I was like,

• 29:02Speaker 02

  how could a guy who served his country feel this alone and disconnected from his family, his community, from his country?

• 29:12Mike Rowe?

  And just so I'm clear, in spite of this connection, you see in his eyes a look of relief that he doesn't have to see you again?

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that there was something that was just cathartic. I don't know.

• 29:23Mike Rowe?

  Well, maybe because you're now you're walking around with his secrets. And, you know, I mean, it's it's one thing to unburden yourself. It's another thing to run into the person.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right. That's correct. And I think that that speaks to what it was that like, having shared that with somebody, maybe in his direct circle, that he would have felt judged or I don't know. But I do know that that lit the spark. And it wasn't just a sense of curiosity. It felt like a sense of responsibility. So, a month later, I'm on the Paramount ranch, shooting a western with Matt Dallas, who became my co-star in the film. And I said to him, hey, man, I had this experience. And I tell him all about it. And I said, I've been journaling ever since. And I, there's gotta be more men and women like him. And I feel compelled. I gotta go out on the road and find out. If this becomes anything more than just journaling in a screenplay,

• 30:18Speaker 02

  I think you should play my best friend. And the reason I said that to him was because a week earlier during filming, Matt had shared a very personal story with me. And I'll never forget, as he was describing the pain of the personal story, he smiled through it, like the tow truck driver in some ways. And I was like, so that's where that came story-wise. Matt agreed to go on the road with me that summer to see it for himself. And as I told you the story with Staff Sergeant George Rice, once he handed me that in memoriam band, there was no looking back. And 13 years, 14 years later, here we are.

• 30:57Mike Rowe?

  But you know that, I mean, there's nothing intrinsically or inherently magical about that band. It was

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:04Mike Rowe?

  It was the meaning you consciously or unconsciously assigned to it. So the question is, you know, I mean, I get your road to Damascus. You had a moment.

• 31:20Mike Rowe?

  But still,

• 31:23Mike Rowe?

  you Canadian?

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm dual citizen, yeah.

• 31:25Mike Rowe?

  Studying in England?

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:27Mike Rowe?

  Well, why do you give a damn about the trials and tribulations of the people who fought for this country?

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Because I wouldn't be here. My grandfather was a POW for five years during World War II, and he was tortured.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  I grew up with him sleeping on the bottom bunk to his stories at night in his broken English about what happened to him. He can just, at that time, he described, in my childhood mind as I remember it anyway, literally a scene of American and Allied troops coming over the horizon to liberate them from these labor camps. That was my dog in the fight. If they hadn't have been, he wouldn't have got to North America. I wouldn't be here. That's part one. Part two.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  When Operation Iraqi Freedom first happened, I remember sitting on the freeway and hearing the news of 48 hours, I believe it was, to, for Saddam Hussein to get out of the country. And I remember I had auditions all that week. And the first casualties began to come in, and this was at the advent, I think, of like internet updates, like Yahoo internet updates, whatever. And the first American casualties began to come in, and for whatever, like, I couldn't, I couldn't focus. I was so, I just couldn't believe we were sort of living through this, right? And you see the faces of the fallen or whatever. And I basically, for those following weeks, I called off any appointments I had or anything,

• 33:08Speaker 02

  and I was just trying to work through it. I don't know why, Mike, I don't. But I, I just, my empathy. And then all those years later, you know, because I had read books on it, I had, you know, studied, you know, I'd read Generation Kill, I had read books like On Combat, On Killing, just out of fascination and so on, but, but it wasn't until that personal, sort of seminal moment with a tow truck driver where I was like, okay, this is, this has to be a calling. And I was willing to accept that if it wasn't, I could have made that decision once I was out on the road.

• 33:50Mike Rowe?

  Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training, like travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive, pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately.

• 34:32Mike Rowe?

  I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid are looking for a straight path

• 35:16Mike Rowe?

  into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  And I have to say, like, the research didn't stop there. I was very fortunate, the Detroit VA Medical Center, that first summer, I was able to build their trust. They allowed me in there to role-play with their doctors, their therapists, their neurologists, neuropsychologists. That informed so much of the film, and informed Virginia Madsen's character, who plays my trauma therapist.

• 35:55Mike Rowe?

  Terrific, by the way.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  I also, yeah, she's just incredible. And then, I also did Honor Flight out of Austin. That's where you take veterans, as you know, to their respective memorials in DC. So Vietnam veterans and World War II veterans that I had the great fortune to do multiple times. Most of Vandy Curtis Hall's dialogue was informed directly. I didn't invent that. That stuff I heard down at the bar with my respective veteran that I was with, or with the group, over whiskey.

• 36:25Mike Rowe?

  So you're putting words in actors' mouths that you had heard in real life? Or that are coming out of a transcript?

• 36:32Speaker 02

  No, that are in real life. So like, so here's the thing, I'll give you an example.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  At the end of Honor Flight, they do your coming home, okay? And again, I want to be really careful because I don't want to blanket statement things, but I'm just giving you my own personal experience of what it was for me. So you get your coming home.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  As you get off the plane back in Austin, you know, they announce over the P A, "Hey, everybody, we have, you know, national treasures that are going to be walking through or in their wheelchairs through, all standing ovation." And it's, it's

• 37:08Mike Rowe?

  It's amazing.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  unbelievable. You get chills all the way up your neck. You know, some Vietnam veterans, certainly mine, that I was chaperoning, had no interest. And I'll never forget that on one particular occasion, he turned to me, my guy, and he said, "I don't need this." We were spat on when we came home. We had to exit out the back. Your medals are in the mail.

• 37:36Mike Rowe?

  That's in the movie.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 37:37Mike Rowe?

  You spit in the, somebody says, "Thanks for your service," in a bar and walks away, and you basically repeat it. Like you spit the words out as you

• 37:47Speaker 02

  Because, because in my experience, look, I know that civilians oftentimes don't know how to thank veterans.

• 37:54Mike Rowe?

  They mean well.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Of course, they just don't. And I often say to vets that I know, look at, like, it takes a lot of courage to come up to a stranger and go, "Hey, thank you for your service." So just understand that side of it. But most veterans, in my experience, said, "Well, don't give me some hollow gesture. Just ask me how I'm doing," you know? And so I felt like that's why my character reacts that way, because I had just seen it so much, where if I was out with a group of veterans and, you know, civilians come up like, "Oh, you know, thank you for your service," or whatever, and it always felt empty and hollow. And, and I thought that that was fair to share.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  Asking, "How are you doing?" and really meaning it, goes a long way. Goes a really long way.

• 38:40Mike Rowe?

  I wonder sometimes, I've talked to a lot of vets about this too, and, and one guy said,

• 38:48Mike Rowe?

  My question was, why is that expression of gratitude so often taken or mistaken? For something else? And he said, it's because I really don't need to hear a tacit admission of guilt from someone I've never met. And the truth is, if I'm being brutally honest, I didn't really do it for you.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:15Mike Rowe?

  I did it for the ephemeral you. But I, most people enlist for very personal reasons, even if they're patriotic reasons, they're personal. In the same way, I think that when it gets down to the short strokes, it's not about the chain of command, it's not about, it's not about your family at home, it's about the guy next to you.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 39:38Mike Rowe?

  And so that is what you, I think you were talking about earlier. If you, when you find that band of brothers mentality.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:45Mike Rowe?

  Maybe it's in a paper mill, in a movie.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:48Mike Rowe?

  Maybe it's in a sewer, in a reality show. But that's part of the thing, I think that, I'll generalize and say men, women too, but mostly men are starving for that kind of connection. And so when we see that connection made real in films, and we see it depicted on the battlefield, you know, that, I don't think that's a lie, I think it's a portrayal, but I think it's real. And then when you break that, and then throw those guys back into polite society, with no reverse boot camp to help them sort it out, that's a problem.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  I think too, though, is that the older generation of warrior, you know, the VFW and the American Legion are very popular at one point, but I've walked into VFWs and American Legions all over the countries, and I'll see different generations of veterans, but predominantly older. And I think in the advent of social media, oftentimes, it's like you're part of like a Facebook group, maybe. So you're still like you're connected, but you're not, right? You're, you know, like, you're, especially if you're out in a rural area, you know, some vets don't want to go to the VFW if they think, oh, that's for the old timer,

• 41:07Speaker 02

  having the cheap beer, right? I've heard that. But I always argue to that. But it's so important to, it doesn't have to be about that. And it's so important to connect with, if you're having trouble connecting with civilians, it's so important to connect with those that might have walked a mile in your shoes, just different conflict. I saw that a lot on Honor Flight. I saw when the vets, it was a younger generation that were, and I'm laughing because I think of like, some of the, the, some of the conversations between the younger and older generation vets, and they just get on each other, and it's sometimes

• 41:47Speaker 02

  gonna be hilarious. But it's so healthy. And then you have this incredibly communal experience, whether you're at the Vietnam Wall, very sobering, or at the World War II Museum, or not Museum, at Memorial.

• 42:02Mike Rowe?

  The Monument, yeah.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  At the Monument. And, and then that night, if you're so lucky, you get to have a couple of whiskeys together. And there's just something, it's like, it's like a sweat lodge. There's just something in that. And then to be a civilian who didn't serve and to be able to be invited into that, it's, it's, it's life changing.

• 42:24Mike Rowe?

  It heartens me to hear you say it. I agree violently. It's not just something, it's something eternal. Man, how much fun did we have in VFW halls?

• 42:34Speaker 01

  A lot of fun, a lot of fun.

• 42:37Mike Rowe?

  And precisely because it was populated with a generation that

• 42:43Mike Rowe?

  Was distant from us and yet available to us. And these were men who who sang the old songs and four part harmony and who ate their peanuts and drank their national bohemian and would sit you down and would tell you a story, like a real story about foxholes and grenades and uncommon valor, you know, and then pause to sing a song and that that was communal. And I'll tell you, man, I it's funny, I did a movie a couple of years ago and filmed a scene at the World War Two memorial. I was just doing a stand up, basically, and an honor flight came in.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:25Mike Rowe?

  It was totally unplanned and I called the crew over because there was an old man in a wheelchair who knew me, had seen me on the TV. Turns out he grew up like a mile from my parents and he and my dad were in Korea at the same time. And suddenly I'm just squatting there, crew comes over and we filmed this moment. And so that this kind of goes to my earlier point and I don't know if it's even worth making again, but these moments that you're describing, they they occur in in real life and your job is to somehow make them believable on screen. My job too, smaller screen.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:10Mike Rowe?

  But the moral of my story is the the moments that we use to promote that project were the moments I had with that old man that were completely unscripted.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:24Mike Rowe?

  Unanticipated.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:25Mike Rowe?

  And utterly real. That's what I meant before when I said, I think I have an unfair advantage, like we're both trying to do the same thing, but to be able to grab that moment.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:36Mike Rowe?

  And put that on screens to promote the project is a gift.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  It was sheepdog was lightning in a bottle.

• 44:43Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  I really mean that and I'll tell you why.

• 44:45Mike Rowe?

  Who's the sheepdog, by the way? I still can't figure it out.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  That's for you to determine, but there could be multiple sheepdogs. What I did with the story was take David Grossman's.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  From On Combat, take, it was a metaphor that a Vietnam veteran said in his book. I didn't want to make it sort of the literal sense of as we know sheepdogs in our society, those that are law-abiding citizens that are comfortable with violence if need be, the wolf being, you know, somebody who would commit a violent act that's immoral, and then the sheep being the general populace. I wanted to take it further and make it more of a metaphor for our story's sake of the wolf at your door. Because I'm not showing you war scenes in the film, right?

• 45:33Mike Rowe?

  Not one.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  I'm showing you the war of the soul. And that's what I saw, because I've never walked on a battlefield. And that's what I saw. But I do want to say that like, what informed so much of so much of that writing and how it sort of came to be that, was I felt, and why we pick up in the story 10 years after his first deployment. I hadn't seen that film for my generation. I hadn't. I'd seen Coming Home, I'd seen The Deer Hunter, that sort of thing.

• 46:03Mike Rowe?

  American Sniper?

• 46:04Speaker 02

  He's back, it's only a few years. I'm going like, if you were to pick up 10 years after that, right? Because I felt like, in some ways, that's where a lot of my research began. Like, I think guys that I was sitting in front of, men and women, were only out two, three years in the beginning. And then I remained friends and I would follow their lives to see like, where are they ending up and all that. And as it took longer to get the film made, and if I was going to play the part, I got older, the characters got older, and it became more interesting to me. It just took on something in its own light. But I do want to say this about it being lightning in a bottle. And I appreciate you talking about the authenticity of the performances.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  The independent filmmaking, you have no money to throw at any problem, zero.

• 46:55Mike Rowe?

  Zero point zero.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Right. I had to trust that the research I did in my screenplay and the words on the page were enough. So there was never a moment on set where I ever went over into the corner going, gosh, what would Calvin do in this moment? I was, it was just pure instinct. I would typically do two takes, like Clint Eastwood style. The last person I would typically speak to was my cinematographer, Evans Brown, who was like Gandalf. And he would have this calming voice. I'd already mapped out the camera movements and everything and, you know, we rehearsed. And then I would step in front of the camera. And that's what came out. And so I was never overthought.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  And that was also very similar to my entire cast.

• 47:42Mike Rowe?

  Had you directed before?

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I directed music videos and stuff like just not, nothing like, you know, and I directed a,

• 47:55Speaker 02

  you know, a kid's sort of like horror film. Not, not like this.

• 47:59Mike Rowe?

  Feature film, not like.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no, but not, nothing, nothing like this, not a serious drama. And so, no, I, this was like a foray for sure. And, and I can't tell you how many times over the years that people said to me, and we were laughed out of Hollywood offices, right? And that's why, partly why it took so many years. And, and I understood it, like, nobody, nobody saw it. And they certainly didn't see me on the poster and, and, you know, and, and I had gotten to a place where this is not a vanity project. But what I did know was that the work that I was gonna do as the actor and the researcher and the writer, typically in LA and Hollywood, you're lucky to get 30 days before you're rolling, before you're on camera. When you hear about, you know,

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Daniel Day Lewis getting a year to prep for Ablink in, well, that was something he worked out with Spielberg, who wasn't happy about that, by the way.

• 48:52Mike Rowe?

  No, that's luxurious.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Right, so my concern was I didn't want someone stepping into it who was just gonna give their version of what they thought it was. I wanted to give my version of what I knew it was. And that was the difference. And that's how I ended up there.

• 49:16Mike Rowe?

  Couple of weeks ago, on this very podcast, I talked with Brooke Rollins, our Secretary of Agriculture, about the incredibly complicated business of delivering affordable beef to our citizens without disadvantaging American ranchers. We also discussed the very controversial decision to import 300,000 metric tons of ground beef from various foreign countries and the maddening policy that allows meatpackers to label imported meat as a product of the USA. Well, shortly after that conversation, one of my sponsors, Good Ranchers, reported an unusually high level of interest in their product. And this is not surprising.

• 49:57Mike Rowe?

  Given a choice, most people would prefer to buy their meat from American ranchers. And Good Ranchers is the number one company in America that delivers 100% American meat straight to your door. They partner with over 100 local farmers and ranchers to deliver pasture-raised meat with no antibiotics and no added hormones. They've got 25,000 five-star reviews on TrustViolet. 25,000, including my own. This month, when you visit GoodRanchers.com/row, you'll get a free Angus ground beef bundle with your first order. Again, that's GoodRanchers.com/row for four bonus pounds of ground beef raised right

• 50:39Mike Rowe?

  here in these United States, and that's guaranteed. Support your local ranchers by insisting on American meat delivered at GoodRanchers.com/row. If you could eat a steer, if you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch, get Good Ranchers now. Hey, haul!

• 51:02Mike Rowe?

  Chuck, can you find the poster for the film? I'm gonna look at some of the...

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Something to stand for? Oh, for this film?

• 51:08Mike Rowe?

  No, no, no, this one.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Oh, sheepdog, yeah.

• 51:09Mike Rowe?

  It's not all about me, all the time, anyway.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Are you sure?

• 51:12Mike Rowe?

  I'm sure.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:13Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you know what? You're right. Bring up my movie. Let's talk about that. No, I wanna, I, um...

• 51:18Speaker 01

  I don't know that I have the poster, but this is the website, right?

• 51:22Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. I'm looking for the reviews.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:25Mike Rowe?

  Oh, they're down here.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you go, if you go down, um, yeah, we.

• 51:29Mike Rowe?

  I'm not gonna make you read these.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  No, but there's a couple, yeah, there's a couple there. Yeah, this, uh, yeah, Joe Newmeyer, we were, I was floored.

• 51:37Mike Rowe?

  A thoughtful, engaging, beautifully acted drama that can stand tall in the company of such giants is Coming Home, American Sniper, and The Messenger. Holy crap, dude. Real, raw, powerful. Scroll up a little, Chuck, because there's more.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Oh, you mean this way?

• 51:53Mike Rowe?

  No.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  You mean this way?

• 51:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a couple at the top, yeah.

• 51:56Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, there you go. Oh, there's, oh, I mean, dude, this, one of the best films of the year. A rare, perfect film.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  I know.

• 52:05Mike Rowe?

  I mean, come on, that's, that's gotta make you blush. I mean, in places where you don't blush.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  I really mean this, like, because even at the awards that we won on the film festival circuit, like, I, because right now I'm feeling a little shaky just talking about this.

• 52:18Mike Rowe?

  This is almost gross. I don't believe you. This is ridiculous. These are, these love letters, look at the two of you there.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  Every, every time that we've ever won an award, we're typically shocked. And I say that because there's a machine out there. And I know you know this, you've been in the business a long time. And just to lighten things up a little bit, because I'm gonna tell you. So, we went to the Beverly Hills Film Festival, it was one of the, we were very fortunate, we screened there, tons of veterans came out, it was sold out, 250 seat theater. I had first responders, Vietnam veterans, it like, we had already, that night, we won the night. It was emotional, the impact was great. The next day is the award ceremony. So, I show up with Matt Dallas, you know, it's at the Beverly Hilton, you know, where they do the Globes. And, uh, you know, we show up and, and our table is at the very back corner, literally beside the bus stand.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  You had to, there's a, there was a railing, I took photos because I was like, my mom won't believe this if I, and my wife won't believe it, there was a railing. We had to go underneath the railing on the way to the bathroom, bus stand.

• 53:22Mike Rowe?

  That's fantastic.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  To get to it, and I said to Matt, enjoy the champagne, we're not gonna win anything tonight. I said, they've.

• 53:27Mike Rowe?

  They never would have put us here.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 53:30Mike Rowe?

  And they're serving us MREs, this can't be right.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  So, so it's just like, you know, glamorous thing, and, you know, the whole thing, everybody's black tie, whatever. And we're just, just there, just trying to take in the moment, you know. We had a great night, again, the night before, we already felt like we'd won. And they call my name for for breast screenplay. And I was, it was that moment of like, was it that they say me? And Matt's like, you gotta get up there, go, go. So I get up there and you're like on a jumbotron, you know, on each side. And you're like, and you gotta understand from where I'm coming from and everything I've been through on this project, that couldn't be more wildly far from anything.

• 54:07Mike Rowe?

  Not why you did it.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  Right. So you're up there and I had nothing prepared. I just, you know, speak from as you wouldn't, you know? And I just spoke from my heart. And then a few awards later, they call best actor. And again, I'm like, this has got it. There's this, I feel like I'm being punked. So I go up there.

• 54:26Mike Rowe?

  So is you.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:27Mike Rowe?

  Best screenwriter, best actor.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Best screenwriter, best actor. And I was so nervous up there. I even bumped the microphone with my chin. I'm like, oh, sorry to the, you know, emcee and everything. And let me tell you, full circle moment. We're at the after party and.

• 54:42Mike Rowe?

  Wait a minute, no best director?

• 54:44Speaker 02

  They gotta spread those awards out. They gotta spread those awards out. You can't be greedy. Hey, we were the only film that took two awards home that night.

• 54:51Mike Rowe?

  And did like, did you have to climb over the railing to get to?

• 54:54Speaker 02

  You know, I'm not joking. I had it like this and I had one arm and I put it on the table. And if you, if, if anyone out there doesn't believe me, I'll have to release footage of it. But, but, but look.

• 55:05Mike Rowe?

  I want to see that.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:07Mike Rowe?

  That's hysterical.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  But, but you know what, though? For us, we had such a good laugh about it. And then at the after party, you know, I have a, have a young child and I said to Matt, you know, I, I, I gotta get home to my wife and I'm just really tired and everything. But we'll say thank you to everybody and then I gotta go.

• 55:23Mike Rowe?

  I'm not sure you understand how Hollywood works.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  Right, I know, but I, I just like, I don't, I get, I'm, I was never, look, I ran a moving company while people like, I didn't go to the Hollywood Hills parties and stuff like that. I was always focused on the work, but I will tell you, I'm standing there with the awards. Matt's gone to the bar to get a beer and the seize part and who walks towards me. It looks like John Voight, but I've worked with John. It's not John. And the guy's like a foot shorter. And I'm like, why do I know? And he said, hey, how are you? I just want to say I was really moved by, by your speech. You know, in my career, I had the good fortune to do. A film that dealt with our Vietnam veterans and just in that moment, I'm like, Mr. Savage, John Savage.

• 56:10Mike Rowe?

  Good grief. Deer hunter, John Savage?

• 56:12Speaker 02

  Yes, and I'm like floating above my body. I'm like, put down the awards, Matt, Matt, like Matt Dallas, get over here. Don't worry about the beer, get over here, right? He comes over and, um, and we had this great moment together and, and I, I said to him, you have to understand how surreal this is for us because we've watched that film so many times.

• 56:35Mike Rowe?

  It's his film in a lot of ways.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  I said, I said to Matt Dallas, when I wanted him to first watch that film over a decade ago. I said, if we can have the same humanity in our characters as John Savage has, we'll be in good shape. We'll be in good shape. And I was able to tell that to him to his face. And it was emotional. I was like, that's it. Anything that happens now, we don't have the money for the Hollywood machine to spend $50,000 in LA Times articles and Variety and all this kind of stuff. We don't have that. I just hope that we're the people's movie and that's all we can be. I just hope that the men and women that we set out to represent, the Gold Star families, the first responders, their families that have committed their lives to service and

• 57:22Speaker 02

  sacrifice, that's all I care about. And if we've done them solid, then we're going to be okay.

• 57:28Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, you've done them solid for sure. But you've made a movie that can't be watched casually. You know what I mean? It's like you don't put it on in the background, look up every now and then, see what's going on.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:46Mike Rowe?

  You need to sit down and you take a deep breath. Take this for what it's worth because people, people will watch with different agendas and I think maybe for different reasons. I would have watched it. Well, I mean, you were coming in, so of course I'm going to watch it. But like out in the real world, I, I'm not sure what I would have done, Stephen, to be honest with you because, because I've spent a lot of time in the space and it always leaves me feeling like a giant pair of hands came down from the sky and just like wrung me out. And then just like said, okay, now, now you think about all that. Count your blessings, selfish bastard, right?

• 58:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:26Mike Rowe?

  I mean, and so. The movie is both a love letter.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:31Mike Rowe?

  To the people it portrays. But it's also a challenge to the rest of us.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:38Mike Rowe?

  And by the way, let's go there because the rest of us includes me and you. And I'll, I'll ask you a question I get all the time and forgive me. Did you have an imposter syndrome going on ever? Did you ever feel?

• 58:51Speaker 02

  Not, not while we were filming because I didn't have time to think about that. But, um.

• 58:55Mike Rowe?

  Because you didn't serve and I didn't.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right. Yeah. And, and I did, I think in the beginning.

• 59:00Mike Rowe?

  You surrounded yourself with people who did.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yes, but I think that like, like, look, the performance is as good as it is because I didn't overthink it. I, my North Star were the stories that both uplifted me, but for years haunted me in my own nightmares. That was it. It was that simple. When I gave that monologue to Virginia Mattson about the sheep pen, that was one take. I had met with all the guys in that unit that had loosely inspired, many of the guys that had were in that unit that had inspired that story. There was never, I, I mean, when I delivered it, I, I saw it.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  I saw it all because I had heard so many different perspectives of how that all went down. And then of course, the time I spent with Brad Link in Pittsburgh, where in 2011 I went and lived with him, I, I stayed in his sister's attic. And I, I thought it was only going to be a day or two with him. I ended up staying with him for a month. And he used couch cushions as military homes to like, explain this particular operation. And there's just certain things that stick with you when he talks about the crack in the sheep pen wall and how ominous it was. So those things for years had haunted me. So.

• 1:00:19Mike Rowe?

  A two foot crack.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  A two foot crack in the wall that when he walked by it, he had this awful feeling. And it wasn't anything else but that. And I started to see that in my own nightmares. And amongst all the other stories over the, you know, the years that have been shared with me. But I think that when you talk about imposter syndrome, look, it's a heavy lift. It was terrifying every, it's still terrifying. You can read all the quotes and awards and everything. But it's not out there yet to the public. Um, the response has been incredible from the veteran community on the film festival circuit. Um, all over the country. But it's a heavy lift. And I know, like, just talking tonally about the film.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  There are parts that are very heavy. But I had to go to that place. Because in honoring the stories of those that were shared with me, I wasn't gonna get into some of the movies that have been made in the genre that get into, for lack of a better term, blood and guts and so on. But I really had to go into the quiet spaces of trauma. It's not necessarily what's said, it's what's not said. And I had to go there. That's what, not only what I saw, but if you're gonna sit there and relate to something, I felt that that was my duty. So, at these film festivals, we do a Q and A typically. When you have Vietnam veterans that stand up, some in tears, and say, "You effin' nailed

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  it." And that's all they wanna say, and they sit back down. When you have an OIF or an OEF that come up to you and hug you in tears, or say in front of a full auditorium of people, "I finally have a film to show my family why I am the way I am, but why they are the way they are." And then say, "I wish I could show this to my ex-wife." You know? And so, like, it goes the full gamut, no question, but I hope the takeaway for folks when they see it is a few things. It's not a post-traumatic stress movie, it's a post-traumatic growth movie. You don't have to do it alone. You don't have to do it alone. But you have to do the work. You have to do the work.

• 1:02:35Mike Rowe?

  No shortcuts.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  I don't wanna sound pompous, but just in what I saw, there isn't a shortcut. And I promise you, and I'll try not to be emotional about this, but... I promise you, if you do the work, if you do the work, there is light at the end of that tunnel. I promise you, I've seen it. I've seen it firsthand, and it's a worthy path. It's a worthy journey, and that's all I hope that people get out of it by the end. And if you're a civilian, the call of action is to be more connected in your community. Go up, if you have a veteran that lives on your street, how are you today? It's that simple, you know?

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  And I think that that's our duty, I think as civilians. And I'm hoping that the film, at the very least, I think if we can save a single life with the film, it'll be the greatest Hollywood success story. But if we can at least build the bridge with that gap between the civilian and the military and the veteran community, I think, I think we've done our job.

• 1:03:51Mike Rowe?

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• 1:04:34Mike Rowe?

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• 1:05:13Mike Rowe?

  I'd bet my own life that this movie will save lives. I really would, and I'll tell you something else.

• 1:05:22Mike Rowe?

  Two other men have sat where you're sitting. One you know for sure, Gary Sinise.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:05:27Mike Rowe?

  And Gary said something very similar. And of course, he uses music.

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:32Mike Rowe?

  The way you're using your film. It is a bridge. It's a reason.

• 1:05:39Mike Rowe?

  It's a connector. The other one is Scott Mann. You know Scott?

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  I don't know personally, no.

• 1:05:44Mike Rowe?

  Scott wrote the book about Pineapple Express.

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, wow. Pineapple Express, right, about getting out of Afghanistan. Yes.

• 1:05:51Mike Rowe?

  He did this, basically, oh my god, the story's amazing, but he he managed it from Florida, I believe, where he was living. And he's, he's getting calls and everything has gone to hell at Abbey Gate. And it's just.

• 1:06:09Mike Rowe?

  So he did that. But it still wasn't enough. This is Green Beret who saw all the things and did all the things. And now he's home and now this happens. And now, today, what is he doing? He's building bridges. He's writing books.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Mike Rowe?

  So you got books, you got music, you've got film. You have an artistic community who's trying as best they can to use the, you know, the clay on their potters wheel.

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Mike Rowe?

  Right? And then you've got all the citizens. And then, of course, you've got the cohort with whom we're most concerned.

• 1:06:46Mike Rowe?

  How bad is it? Like, what's your latest understanding of the stats? Seventeen a day, twenty a day?

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  So when I started out on the journey, the report came out, I think in 2012. So in thirteen, 2013, they reported twenty-two a day. And, um, and, you know, that's an interesting thing, too, because.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  At the time, I was trying to get people to care as I was going into the research and so on. And I would talk sometimes to the press, sometimes I would do local television. If you ever mentioned veteran suicide, you would literally have a producer behind the camera freaking out like that wasn't on the docket. Why is he not talking about white chicks or whatever movie he's in?

• 1:07:29Mike Rowe?

  No shit.

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  And you're like, oh, wow. So then I looked into like, well, how do we make this palatable? And at the time, I was working with a VSO out of, and that's a veteran service organization, out of Dallas. And at the time, we were going into recruitment centers and we would videotape pushing out 22. And at the time, I think it was around the ice bucket challenge and we were like, we should hashtag this. And this is the only way we can make it palatable, that we thought anyway, at the time, to bring awareness to it. And it took about a year, I think, or so to really take off. And that's when, because it started off, we hashtagged it Sweat for Vets. And then we changed it to 22 Push Up Challenge.

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  And, you know, a year later, The Rock's doing it, Chris Pratt's doing it.

• 1:08:18Mike Rowe?

  That was you guys?

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Yes. And, and those things take on their own.

• 1:08:22Mike Rowe?

  I did that.

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  Did you?

• 1:08:24Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:08:26Mike Rowe?

  I did the push up thing.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, there you go. And, and I hope at the, like, look, I want to be also honest, like, as the original architect of that, with the group, with the VSO that we worked with, I wasn't managing that weekly or something of where that mission, because what happens all, when those viral campaigns go, they turn into something else, right? Where people are doing it for awareness, for all the right reasons. Some people do it for clicks, whatever it is, but as long as the message is getting out there, which was veteran suicide, and just for this small period of time, it seemed like we could talk about it. And, and it's even going into press on this movie, I feel like we're back to this place where we can't talk about it again.

• 1:09:10Mike Rowe?

  What is it, you think?

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  I mean, you gotta sell car commercials on the commercial break? I don't think it, I don't, I don't know. And do we, to be honest, as a viewer, do we just tune it out? We don't wanna know what's behind the curtain. We don't wanna know that. That's ugly, that's scary. I don't wanna know. That's also why, when you have an all-volunteer military, which is, you know, such a small percentage of the population, it's those families that are carrying that weight for the rest of the country. Right? It's easier if it's over there.

• 1:09:46Mike Rowe?

  For sure. Look, well, I'll tell ya, I gotta be very careful with this episode. Cause I learned a lesson just a few months ago. Like, with regard to, I mean, this'll make the rounds.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:09:57Mike Rowe?

  But it'll be on YouTube. So I gotta, I gotta think about the thumbnail. And I gotta think about the description. Because I went to Fredericksburg, Taylor and I shot a story down there, six months ago, maybe? Black Horse Forge. Steve Hots, former interior designer, who signs up to fight ten, twelve years ago. Eighty-second airborne, breaks his back, lots of jumps, and then loses an eye. Comes home, ugh, he's spiraling. And he's, he's this close to checking out. And he goes in his garage and he pulls out a forge, which he's had for years, and he fires it up.

• 1:10:42Mike Rowe?

  It just starts hammering metal, old railroad ties, starts making knives, you know? And he finds the time compresses when he does this. And it gets out of his head. And his friends are struggling, and he calls them, and they come over, and they start making knives, they start forging. This is probably nine years ago, ten years ago, he started doing this. Twenty-two thousand vets have gone through the Black Horse Forge. Zero suicides.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:09Mike Rowe?

  Zero.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:10Mike Rowe?

  Now, we shoot this story, we tell it, and we put it out there. And what pops up? A black screen, instead of the thumbnail. Which is important when you're out there in social, right? It's, it's like your poster.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:25Mike Rowe?

  That P and A stuff matters, right? Print and advertising. And so, it's replaced, YouTube replaces it with a black screen, that says, "Warning."

• 1:11:36Mike Rowe?

  Suicidal ideation, blah, blah, blah. It might as well have said, nothing to see here. Keep scrolling, or you might become sad. Now, that's what we're dealing with.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. I'm really sorry.

• 1:11:52Mike Rowe?

  Well.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  Because.

• 1:11:53Mike Rowe?

  We'll fix it.

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  But let's have the hard conversation.

• 1:11:55Mike Rowe?

  Well.

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  I'm, I can have it.

• 1:12:00Speaker 02

  Let's talk about, there's two sides to this, in my own experience, again.

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  A sense of purpose is very important to wake up in the morning. You know that, you've dedicated, you know, your life's work to this of providing jobs for people, or inspiring people to get out there and work and feel useful. That's so important and it's critical. A sense of direction, especially if you're coming out in the military, you know, there's structure in everything that you do in the military. And if you come out and you, you don't have that sense of structure, you don't have that sense of purpose, again, in my experience, it affects your self-worth. How can I be useful to myself, to my family, to my community, to my country? So, that's a really unfortunate story. The second part of it, though, is what's between your ears.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  And the whispers can lie. And I'm just telling you from personal experience that like, when you take on, especially taking on everybody else's trauma, it affects you. I would go into restaurants, I couldn't have my back to the door, I was always watching people's hands, what's in their bags. You're hyper vigilant, hypersensitive, and that's somebody who's not served, that's just somebody who was exposed to it for years, right? I think that what we need to try to do better, and again, I don't want to stand on a soapbox here, because I respect the heck out of what you're trying to do. And I do think that there's a lot of value, and I know you know that. That sense of worth, that purpose, whatever it is that you're doing.

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  You know, Michael Landen, wasn't he the actor from Little House on the Prairie? Who said, be the best ribbon tire, you know, best ribbon maker? I remember that story as a kid. And, and that stays with you. And I think that there's, there's a lot of value in that. And I think that there has to be a balance and then we gotta be able to talk about it. About the psychological, right? What you go through. And how we manage that. With the practical, with the physical. Whether that's physical fitness, your diet, job, whatever it is.

• 1:14:08Mike Rowe?

  Well, each according to his own.

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:10Mike Rowe?

  You know, you can make movies, I can make TV, Gary can make music.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Mike Rowe?

  Scott can write books. Google and YouTube can just as easily throw gas on the content. As they can turn the dial down. It would be just as, it'd be a very simple matter for Regal Theaters, just throwing out a name, could be any of them. To take your film and make it available for free on Veterans Day. All over the country. It would be a relatively simple thing for Amazon or Netflix or HBO Max or Roku to do the same thing.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Mike Rowe?

  So, you know, I don't think it's enough to fight for equal treatment. Honestly, I think that, and this gets a little icky and I'm not sure how to navigate it.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:15:02Mike Rowe?

  You know, but, but it's, if your film is viewed purely as an entertainment property. Then we miss all of the upside of a public service announcement.

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:15Mike Rowe?

  If it's seen as a public service announcement, it's a lecture and nobody wants that.

• 1:15:19Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:15:20Mike Rowe?

  And nobody wants a sermon.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:22Mike Rowe?

  It has to be both. And so it's a monumental struggle, I think, for artists of all stripes. What we could use collectively is the kind of corporate enthusiasm.

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  Yes. Yes.

• 1:15:38Mike Rowe?

  And that's.

• 1:15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:39Mike Rowe?

  I mean.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's why I think it's unfortunate, again, without seeing the video, that that would ever happen.

• 1:15:44Mike Rowe?

  It was a feel-good video.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  I can, I can only imagine, and you probably were like, this is, what is going on? What world am I living in that this, that could potentially help somebody would just by.

• 1:15:53Mike Rowe?

  That segment will save lives as surely as your film will. Guaranteed. And I can't even point to some dastardly maniacal bean counter in the corner, twirling his mustache. Ah, it's not that, it's an algorithm.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:09Mike Rowe?

  It's a, it's garbage in, garbage out.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Mike Rowe?

  And somebody is painting with a very broad brush.

• 1:16:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:16:14Mike Rowe?

  And we're covering up a lot of really important things. And it's dumb. You know, it's dumb, but this is a.

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  But I, I want to talk to you, though, and I agree with all of that. I, I do want to say, like, in the corporate aspect of things, we did partner, we're announcing this soon, but we did partner with VetTix, right?

• 1:16:30Mike Rowe?

  Great.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  It's a 501(c)(3). VetTix has committed their mission to creating memories that last forever for veterans, first responders and their families. Get you out of your house. You want to go see a country music or, you know, a concert? Or, you know, your favorite sporting event? They do that. We're the first film they've ever partnered with on this. And we had to go out there and find those relationships because we knew we weren't going to get them in the system. Just as you're saying, we knew we weren't going to get that. We had already experienced, we had a decade, more than a decade of the no's and people, you know, not wanting to help you out. We have an incredible VSO coalition, corporate sponsors that have come in,

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  that see the need, especially for the veterans that they might employ. You know, Navy Federal Credit Union has already purchased $20,000 worth of tickets through VetTix to send veterans, first responders, their families to the movies.

• 1:17:27Mike Rowe?

  Terrific.

• 1:17:27Speaker 02

  So we're finding ways. I know that it's not going to be easy, but nothing on this journey has been, you know? So I kind of go into it of like, you know, with, we just work our butts off, keep our heads down and hope that the message and what we're trying to do reaches folks.

• 1:17:47Mike Rowe?

  Forgive me for thinking like a marketer, I can't help it.

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Mike Rowe?

  Tell the vets who see the film with a vet tic.

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:17:58Mike Rowe?

  To take their phone out after the movie.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:01Mike Rowe?

  And record their honest reaction to it. Find a place where they can upload those videos with the proper releases and then start building

• 1:18:10Mike Rowe?

  the kind of campaign.

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:11Mike Rowe?

  That is just brutally and relentlessly transparently authentic.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Mike Rowe?

  And you start putting together thirty, ninety, two-minute clips of vets with tears of gratitude in their eyes.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:25Mike Rowe?

  Saying straight to their cameras, "I felt alone and now I don't. Somebody finally gets it. I wish my ex-wife could have seen this. I wish my kids could see this," and so forth. And, look, I don't have a crystal ball, but I, I've got a pretty good idea, I think, of what is persuasive today. And anything other than that feels like marketing. It feels.

• 1:18:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:53Mike Rowe?

  It feels like P and A.

• 1:18:59Mike Rowe?

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• 1:19:43Mike Rowe?

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• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the thing is, and I appreciate you saying that, we began to do that on the festival circuit because we were seeing such a profound reaction. So Vietnam veterans, if you know, you go to our Instagram or TikTok, you'll see veterans of all generations sharing their heartfelt feelings. Now, to build upon what you said with VetTix, first of all, if you sign up for VetTix and you're a veteran or you go to first tics and you're a first responder, you, as I said, you can get entered into these lotto's for different things, you know, and then they notify you if you're one of the people that get the tickets, you know. You can get up to three other family members can come with you.

• 1:21:04Speaker 02

  But what they do to incentivize and encourage you to share your experience, which only helps the community, if you really loved something, right? If you went to a concert, a sporting event, or now our movie, and had an experience that you felt was unforgettable or worth sharing. If you post it on social media, they actually give you basically tokens, if you will, towards other events to encourage you to do that, to be willing to put yourself out there, right? But I do, to build on what you said, that is the grassroots that we hope for campaign because we don't have the big Hollywood marketing dollars. We don't have that machine working for us. And like I said, this was always about ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances.

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  And I just, I hope that Sheepdog becomes the People's Movie.

• 1:21:52Mike Rowe?

  I hope it does too. When can the people see it?

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  It'll be in select theaters this December and then nationwide in January.

• 1:22:00Mike Rowe?

  How excited are you?

• 1:22:01Speaker 02

  Very nervous.

• 1:22:03Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  But I'm, I'm mostly honored.

• 1:22:08Mike Rowe?

  Who's your favorite Canadian actor?

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  John Candy.

• 1:22:13Mike Rowe?

  Have you have you seen the documentary?

• 1:22:15Speaker 02

  Not yet, but I can tell you as a kid, Summer Rental, I can watch that even as an adult. It's a masterpiece.

• 1:22:23Mike Rowe?

  What was it, the the whole, I mean, the Second City TV?

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  Oh, like SCTV, but even Uncle Buck, I mean, he had some. He shows up in movies like, oh, and planes, trains and automobiles.

• 1:22:36Mike Rowe?

  That.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  That's Oscar, that's Oscar worthy. He was heartbreaking in that.

• 1:22:40Mike Rowe?

  And to hear, I saw Steve Martin interviewed.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:45Mike Rowe?

  About that, and he just couldn't have been more effusive about the whole thing, but he said that there's an incredible scene where he basically comes clean and tells Steve Martin.

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:57Mike Rowe?

  You know, who he is.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:58Mike Rowe?

  His wife's been dead for 10 years.

• 1:23:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:00Mike Rowe?

  He's just been living on the road. And Steve said, I think that's the scene. If I'm wrong, it's it's one that comes a little later on the street, but it like, it was so much longer.

• 1:23:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:13Mike Rowe?

  And he said, it's the only time I've ever agreed that, okay, it's tighter, shorter. But it felt like we were cutting into something kind of sacred.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:30Mike Rowe?

  And I.

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:31Mike Rowe?

  I wish I could see that. That moment and that crazy moment when they're driving down and they're going the wrong way.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:38Mike Rowe?

  And he screams, he looks over and all he sees is the skeleton version of his head.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Mike Rowe?

  I fell out of my chair laughing, man. John Kennedy was a frickin genius.

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, he was, he was it. He could break your heart and make you laugh in the same moment. Oh, yeah. I mean, he shows up even in, doesn't he show up in like, he had a cameo in Home Alone?

• 1:23:56Mike Rowe?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  And he just, that was all improvised from what I understand, and he just riffs and he, but you know what it is? Like, yes, he's a comedic genius, right? But it's like his humanity.

• 1:24:08Mike Rowe?

  Oh, man.

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  It just comes out, it just like, yeah.

• 1:24:11Mike Rowe?

  Heart, sleeve.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:12Mike Rowe?

  Here you are.

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:13Mike Rowe?

  And and he's, he was so, it's so interesting to hear him talk about his weight and how he was really hurt by the way people.

• 1:24:25Mike Rowe?

  Couldn't not ask him about it. They just couldn't not ask him about it.

• 1:24:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:30Mike Rowe?

  And, uh, yeah, man.

• 1:24:31Speaker 02

  And I think that the story goes, and I, I hope I'm right about this, that he was also aware that,

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  of the health issues in his family. So there was something that, that came across that he felt like, or knew he was on board time, as we all are, but maybe a shorter

• 1:24:48Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  time span. And, and I think he just loved hard and gave it everything he had.

• 1:24:52Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:24:54Mike Rowe?

  What about Nathan Fillion? You know Nathan?

• 1:24:56Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 1:24:57Mike Rowe?

  Canadian boy.

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  No, I don't know.

• 1:24:59Mike Rowe?

  The guy was on Castle and, uh...

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  No, I don't, uh...

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  The Rookie. He's on The Rookie right now.

• 1:25:05Mike Rowe?

  He's on The Rookie now, but he was famous for...

• 1:25:08Speaker 02

  Castle, wasn't it?

• 1:25:09Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, but before that, uh, he plays Malcolm in that, in the Josh Whedon big frickin' space cowboy movie. It's huge. Yeah.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't...

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  What's he thinking?

• 1:25:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:25:25Mike Rowe?

  No, before Guardians of the Galaxy. Oh, man, he's listening out. He, he's a friend of mine before that. Right around Galaxy Quest. Right around. You gotta find it, Chuck. It's gonna drive me nuts. What about, uh, what about Jimmy Dune from Star Trek? He's Canadian.

• 1:25:39Speaker 02

  Um, are we talking? I don't, look, William Shatner is, isn't he?

• 1:25:43Mike Rowe?

  William Shatner's Canadian.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't, I mean, no disrespect to the family.

• 1:25:46Mike Rowe?

  Oh, you're telling me how young you are now?

• 1:25:47Speaker 02

  No, I, I just like, I don't know that. Um...

• 1:25:49Mike Rowe?

  Are you so young, Steven, with the funny misspelled last name?

• 1:25:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, alright.

• 1:25:53Mike Rowe?

  You're so young.

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know that. Um, but I mean, you know, a lot, I guess also too, let's be honest, a lot of great comedians came out of Canada, you know, Jim Carrey, Mike Myers.

• 1:26:05Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 1:26:06Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, everybody from SCTV and Second City, you know, so I think like, those become your sort of like...

• 1:26:14Mike Rowe?

  Your touchstones.

• 1:26:15Speaker 02

  Folk, yeah, your folk heroes almost, like your, you know, um, and hey, you know, the, the humor and the joy that they, they've brought so many people, but that was kinda, those were my, like, you know, there's serious actors that I like and so on, but, you know, that was, you know...

• 1:26:29Mike Rowe?

  Serenity.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  Serenity?

• 1:26:32Mike Rowe?

  Pretty sure the ship was called Serenity.

• 1:26:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, it's Firefly.

• 1:26:35Mike Rowe?

  Firefly, thinking of Fireflies.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  That's it, Firefly.

• 1:26:39Mike Rowe?

  Well, you got your work cut out.

• 1:26:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, I gotta do, it sounds like I gotta do their homework.

• 1:26:43Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you're probably gonna have to re-watch Star Trek. With particular emphasis on Scotty. Who was at Normandy? And who was shot? I think it's, I think a cigarette later. Yeah, he got shot to pieces, blew his finger off.

• 1:26:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:59Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you never notice that in Star Trek. Scotty, he's got, he's got a missing finger. Yeah, yeah, left it in, uh, left it in France.

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:27:07Mike Rowe?

  I mean, he really did.

• 1:27:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:08Mike Rowe?

  But talk about a tearjerker, I'll leave you with this, man. Talk about man's humanity to man, that guy. That guy.

• 1:27:17Speaker 02

  Oh, I know what you're talking about.

• 1:27:18Mike Rowe?

  Spoke at conventions, Star Trek conventions, all over the country. And he took a phone call from a fan who was at the end of her rope. And basically telling him, look, I'm, I'm going to end my life, but I've always so admired you and I've so loved your work and I just, I just wanted to call you and tell you that. And, uh, he hits her with all this reverse psychology, asking her, well, how's she gonna do it? You know, and blah, blah, blah, and really freaks her out. And then says, look, I don't have time for this. If you want to meet me and discuss the details of your demise, uh, there'll be a ticket waiting for you at the convention center up in Boston. And so this woman comes.

• 1:28:01Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:28:03Mike Rowe?

  And they talk. And she comes to four, five, six subsequent Star Trek conventions. And they become friends. And then she drops out of his life for years. And then he gets a call over a decade later. She's healthy, she's married, second kid's on the way.

• 1:28:27Mike Rowe?

  Thanks for saving my life, Jimmy Dillon.

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  I'm so glad that story ended that way. That's the power, that's, that takes a lot of courage to handle it that way, to come in at it that way.

• 1:28:38Mike Rowe?

  Oh dude.

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  He must have known enough about it, though.

• 1:28:40Mike Rowe?

  He knew.

• 1:28:41Speaker 02

  Like, I don't mean about her personal life, but about.

• 1:28:43Mike Rowe?

  Well, he just knew enough about.

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  The struggle.

• 1:28:45Mike Rowe?

  That's right.

• 1:28:46Speaker 02

  He knew enough to be able to go in there, and here's why, that ties in.

• 1:28:48Mike Rowe?

  You don't say, "Thank you for your service," in a moment like that.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  The trauma therapist that I studied with for Sheepdog.

• 1:28:54Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  Some of their tacts, I was really uncomfortable with.

• 1:28:58Mike Rowe?

  I bet.

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  Where I was like, you know, I would say we would like, I do work with them all day at the VA, and we'd go out for a beer later, and I would be like, hey, I just wanted to like, kind of talk to you about that, like, do you think that was okay? Like, that tact was a little, either abrasive, or like, like, there's a lot on the line here, and you know.

• 1:29:16Mike Rowe?

  Precisely.

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  Thank you. That's exactly what they would say. There's everything on the line.

• 1:29:21Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  And I'll never forget, um, standing in the cafeteria at the Detroit VA, a five, or a six-foot-five corpsman, pointing across the room of the cafeteria to a five-foot, and I only mention size because you have to think of a warrior, right? A five-foot-tall trauma therapist, and he says, "That lady right there saved my life."

• 1:29:47Mike Rowe?

  Hmm.

• 1:29:48Speaker 02

  And I find that, and she was someone that had a very different, I would say unorthodox, unique tact in there, just as you mentioned of this child.

• 1:29:58Mike Rowe?

  Well, you know what you call her? That'd be a sheepdog.

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:30:04Mike Rowe?

  Great movie. Um, it's only gonna save a bunch of lives. Um, but the important thing is you got two awards, and I hope those wind up on a mantle someplace where.

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it's an embarrassment of riches, but we have 15.

• 1:30:16Mike Rowe?

  Oh geez.

• 1:30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I only say that because it matters to the other film festivals, Omaha, Iowa, all over the country.

• 1:30:24Mike Rowe?

  Yes.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  We're grateful. Naples, Florida, but I, I, yes, and I mean this when I say this, those aren't ours. They are not ours. Those are the people that we represent in the film.

• 1:30:36Mike Rowe?

  They're on loan.

• 1:30:37Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:30:38Mike Rowe?

  You're a custodian.

• 1:30:39Speaker 02

  Thank you. But they, if that can help elevate the message and the awareness of the film, we're filled to the brim.

• 1:30:47Mike Rowe?

  Sorry, I know we're over, but last question.

• 1:30:49Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:30:50Mike Rowe?

  Because I ask it out loud when I watched your movie last night. What did it feel like at the very, very, very, very, very end to see yourself on Larry King 13 years ago?

• 1:31:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:03Mike Rowe?

  Talking about what this thing might turn into?

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  So first off, when I look at that Larry King clip, I laugh in the beginning because I'm wearing a T-shirt in there and like Matt's wearing like a suit coat. And why that was, was because we were racing to get to a studio. I left my jacket. I was all flustered. I get there, I'm sitting in his makeup chair accidentally. It was like that. And so when I got in front of them, you know, I was just dialed in of like, I'm here to talk about this subject matter and that's what we're in. And so when I look at that and I think of like, one, how young we look in it, but also I just look like a fish out of water because I was.

• 1:31:43Mike Rowe?

  You were.

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  I was.

• 1:31:44Mike Rowe?

  But you knew the mission.

• 1:31:45Speaker 02

  But I did, and I have to say this because, you know, I know Larry did a lot of work for veterans. Like, he took a shot, just as you're doing here today, which I'm so grateful for. He took a shot on us. And, and he, you know, most people that are going to be watching this, they don't know who I am, right? And they don't need to. That's okay. Providing this platform for us. I look at that Larry King clip and I am filled with gratitude. And I, I also think of, we had been on the road at that point for two or three months. So we were literally just coming off it. And I can see, my family jokes about this because of my, how direct I was with them where I was like, I would sit there and I would listen. Or I would say, well, think about it, Larry.

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  And I wasn't saying it to be condescending. I was exhausted and everything that had been shared with me on that road trip, right? And I was frustrated and I was angry and I was motivated. And when I see those clips at the end of our movie, that's what I see.

• 1:32:45Mike Rowe?

  You know, as much as I agree and believe that people need rest and are better off when they're rested.

• 1:32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:54Mike Rowe?

  There's no denying. The long list of great things that have happened because exhausted people kept pushing. You're tired right now.

• 1:33:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:03Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:04Mike Rowe?

  I'm tired all the time.

• 1:33:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:07Mike Rowe?

  I mean, I fell asleep 20 minutes ago.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:08Mike Rowe?

  I don't know.

• 1:33:09Speaker 02

  But I will say it's it's a good tired. I'm the father. I have a beautiful son. He's healthy. My wife's happy, healthy. And here we are, and we're able to talk about this meaningful and beautiful film. And I like.

• 1:33:22Mike Rowe?

  No.

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  It is a labor of love.

• 1:33:23Mike Rowe?

  It's a blessing.

• 1:33:24Speaker 02

  2026, you know, catching up on rest from 14 years, but it'll be well worth it.

• 1:33:28Mike Rowe?

  Final, final, final.

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:33:31Mike Rowe?

  For those people who are just listening and not watching. You're probably saying, who's this? Who am I listening to? Who's this guy sound like? And maybe could it be Matt Damon? Well, it's not Matt Damon, but even watching the movie. They're like five time. Now, maybe it was the Boston thing.

• 1:33:48Speaker 02

  I didn't go hard into the pain on that.

• 1:33:49Mike Rowe?

  No, you didn't.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  Cause I was like, it'll be farcical. Nobody's gonna buy it. And we already saw Good Will Hunting.

• 1:33:55Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. But.

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  But but I was like, my father in law, he's an industrial tow truck driver, and I love him to death. And he. He kinda has that accent. So I'm around him a lot, right? And so that's where that kinda you kinda pick up on it. It just gently sort of like.

• 1:34:10Mike Rowe?

  Are you telling me I had to wait for 90 minutes to learn that your dad is an industrial tow truck driver? And your moment on the road to Damascus happened, basically with a tow truck driver?

• 1:34:20Speaker 02

  That opening shot bringing you into the paper mill?

• 1:34:23Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  That's who's behind the wheel of that truck. That was my father in law. And the man doesn't miss his mark. We lined it up. You cannot make this up. The cinematic gods blessed us that day. It's like six in the morning. The sky opened just as he was coming through frame, because that was my homage to Deer Hunter.

• 1:34:41Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 1:34:41Speaker 02

  I wanted the truck to come in and hit you hard, the sound of the. The diesel engine to bring you in, and then you push past it, and there's the paper mill. Right? And that was him. We get on the walkie with him, and I'm like, you got it. You're wrapped for the day. That's it. It's, you know? But yes, I I'm very fortunate to be surrounded by salt of the earth people who work very hard and.

• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  And my wife, you know, comes from a military family. Both of her brothers are combat veterans that served in.

• 1:35:11Mike Rowe?

  What's her name?

• 1:35:11Speaker 02

  Vanessa.

• 1:35:12Mike Rowe?

  Boy's name?

• 1:35:13Speaker 02

  River.

• 1:35:14Mike Rowe?

  Vanessa River, you should be proud of the old man. You did a good thing, man. Your movie's got to save lives, that's for sure. Pity about your last name, but people get over that.

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:23Mike Rowe?

  Uh, keep an eye out for the film. It's called Sheepdog. It's awesome. Thanks, Stephen.

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  Thanks, Mike.

• 1:35:28Mike Rowe?

  Anytime.

• 1:35:29Speaker 03

  This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile. Sorry it went on so long, but if it made you smile, then share your satisfaction in the way that people do. Take some time to go online and leave us a review.

• 1:36:06Speaker 03

  I hate to ask, I hate to beg, I hate to be a nudge, but in this world, the advertisers really like to judge. You don't need to write a bunch, just a line or two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. Not four. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. And not three. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. Definitely not two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. We need five. All you've got to do is leave a quick. Even if you hate it. Five. Especially if you hate it. Review. Thank you.

• 1:36:41Speaker 04

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