536 Brene Brown: Create True Belonging and Heal the World

"Choose courage over comfort because you can't have both." - Brene Brown If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/536 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 536 with number one New York Times bestselling author, Brene Brown.

• 0:08Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:34Lewis Howes?

  Paulo Coelho said that "the strongest love is the love that can demonstrate its fragility." Welcome everyone to a very special episode with someone I've been trying to interview for many years now. Her name is Dr. Brene Brown, and she is a research professor at the University of Houston. She has spent the past 16 years studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, and is the author of three number one New York Times bestsellers, The Gifts of Imperfection, Daring Greatly, and Rising Strong. And her latest book, Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone, is out right

• 1:15Lewis Howes?

  now. Now, her TED Talk, The Power of Vulnerability, is one of the top five most viewed TED Talks in the world with over 30 million views. In addition to her research and writing, Brene is the founder and CEO of Brave Leaders, Inc., an organization that brings empirically-based courage-building programs to teams, leaders, entrepreneurs, change-makers, and culture shifters. And we covered so much. I really enjoyed connecting with Brene. This is actually the week before the hurricane happened in Houston where we did the interview and where Brene is from. And we talked about so many things and really just dived into a lot of these different topics. I've got a book out that most of you know that's all about masculine

• 1:59Lewis Howes?

  vulnerability. And there's just so much I wanted to connect on with Brene. And we covered a lot of things about what belonging truly means, what makes people so comfortable. Complex in this crazy complex world. What every parent needs to know when their kids grow up and leave the house. Why parents are so defensive about their parenting style. How to support men and being willing to discuss vulnerable topics. And so much more, we dive into a lot of different things and so many of you have been asking about when I was gonna have Brene on. Well, it's finally happened, so I would love your support in sharing this out. So if you're listening on your podcast app on your phone, make sure to take a screenshot of the image of the podcast right now.

• 2:44Lewis Howes?

  And share it out on Twitter, on Facebook, or your Instagram story. The link is lewishouse.com/536. And tag myself at Lewis Howes and at Brene Brown. So she can see that you're listening to this as well. Again, just take a screenshot on your phone and share it out right now. All right, guys, this is the episode you've been waiting for. The one I've been excited about interviewing, the one, the only Brene Brown.

• 3:17Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. I'm very excited today we have the incredible Brene Brown on. Thank you so much for having me.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Thanks for coming to Texas.

• 3:25Lewis Howes?

  Yes, I'm very excited to be here. We have an event called the Summit of Greatness every year, an annual event. And the people on my team in our program write down the person that they want to have on the School of Greatness. And most of our team is women and most of them put your name down as the people, the person we want to have on. So we're finally making it happen and my team can stop asking for Brene, it's happening. And I'm very excited about this because you have a new book out called Braving the Wilderness. The quest for true belonging and the courage to stand alone. Make sure you guys get this book right now, it's gonna change the game. And I got a chance to go through it, love everything that you write about in here and I feel very connected to you.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:05Lewis Howes?

  Because. I felt very alone for almost my entire life. I felt like I didn't belong anywhere. I was the youngest of four. I was always picked on, bullied. I was sexually abused when I was a kid by a man that I didn't know. I was always picked last on sports teams. And I know you weren't even picked for, I think it was the step team or some type of...

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, the drill team.

• 4:27Lewis Howes?

  The drill team. I remember how, you know, that made, that kind of transformed your life.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  It was defining.

• 4:32Lewis Howes?

  Defining, right? These moments that we go through as kids can really define and shape us. And so I'm just, I feel connected to you in that sense that I felt very alone and didn't know who I was for a very long time. And still, I'm trying to learn who I am.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too.

• 4:46Lewis Howes?

  You are?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:47Lewis Howes?

  But you seem like you have it all figured out.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Oh God, no, I don't. No, I don't have, I mean, first of all, I think the one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering. You know, that's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was in eighth grade, by itself is not a lot. But how my family responded to it, it was like when things changed for me and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So I think that I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know, I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders,

• 5:33Speaker 01

  who have the belonging thing completely nailed. Because I don't think it is what we think it is. You know, I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends or having a crew or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out because I still feel lonely and alone and on the outside of things on a really regular basis.

• 5:55Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:56Lewis Howes?

  I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people, a 15-city tour,

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:00Lewis Howes?

  millions of fans around the world and you still feel alone?

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can feel really lonely.

• 6:04Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  And it's really hard because, you know, you talk about that book tour. I'm severely introverted.

• 6:10Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Super private. And so I love that connection between me and an audience, but it can also be hard on me. And also, I'm talking about things that no one... It's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topics sometimes. And we laugh and we have fun and we'll sing. But I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone and to belong to yourself above all else. And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself and sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  And so I think that's hard. I think I do feel, I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap. Like I want to find the researcher storyteller, Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me believing what I believe in and doing it really well. But there's not really a blueprint sometimes.

• 7:22Lewis Howes?

  We're all trying to figure it out. We're all trying to figure it out.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  I don't get to copy anybody and so it's hard.

• 7:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  It's still hard. But here's a thing that has changed everything for me. I belong to me. So even when I feel alone and I wonder like who's my crew and who are my people, I belong to me for sure, for the first time in my life maybe.

• 7:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:52Lewis Howes?

  You know, I remember being in, you know, the youngest on these sports teams growing up. I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever. So I was the youngest and I remember just wanting to fit in, just like you did on the, that team. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to feel like they liked me, like I mattered, like I was the cool kid or whatever. And when they would do things that I didn't really agree with, or they would bully other kids or make fun of people. It's like I didn't want to not say anything, you know, I didn't want to stand against them because I wanted to belong.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:21Lewis Howes?

  So if I did stand up against them, then that means I was alone. And that was my biggest fear, was being alone.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  No, yeah, because that's what, that's what teams and groups deliver. They deliver this thing that you're not alone.

• 8:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  The problem is, there's just, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be, what do I need to say, what do I need to wear, how do I need to act? And changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are. Because if we, if we, if we fit in, because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging. That's not belonging, because you betrayed yourself for other people. And that's not sustainable.

• 9:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you start to lose yourself.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  You start to lose yourself, exactly what you said. And so, I think it's hard. You have to show up as who you are.

• 9:20Lewis Howes?

  How do we find out who we are?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  That's the life's work, right? That's frickin' hard.

• 9:27Lewis Howes?

  Do you know who you are?

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I do.

• 9:29Lewis Howes?

  Who are you?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Uh, in what way?

• 9:34Lewis Howes?

  If, if someone just said, who are you, Brene, what would you say?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Uh, Brene Brown.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Mom, partner, researcher storyteller, Texan. I don't know, I ask them how much time they have. Because, you know, the thing is that we want to, when we ask people who they are and we want to know, we'd like those really easy files to put them in. But I'm a complicated person.

• 9:59Lewis Howes?

  Are you?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I think, I know who I am.

• 10:02Lewis Howes?

  What makes you complicated?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  I don't know if I'm complicated, but I'm complex.

• 10:07Lewis Howes?

  You're interesting.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 10:10Lewis Howes?

  Very interesting.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Some days, yeah, some days, no.

• 10:12Lewis Howes?

  Very interesting.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  You know, I think what makes me complex is, I think what makes everyone complex is the paradoxical nature of people.

• 10:19Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  So, you know, like, I speak in public, I love doing that, but I'm incredibly introverted. Um, I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. My kids say, "Yes, ma'am, no, ma'am," but I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that, but to be really polite when they're doing it.

• 10:39Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, I think I'm, um, I'm unapologetically earnest. Like, I believe in the goodness of people, but I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good.

• 10:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  And so, I think, I understand people, I think I have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  So, I think there's just a lot of push and pull.

• 11:04Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  And I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined.

• 11:08Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, I think that's some-

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Do you?

• 11:10Lewis Howes?

  I, I was gonna say, I feel like my entire life, I didn't want to be defined as well. They were like, "You're gonna be this jock in college, you're gonna be like this alcoholic, you're gonna be in the frats."

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:20Lewis Howes?

  All my siblings said this to me, and I was like, "No, I'm not." I made a bet with each one of my siblings, a hundred dollars each, that I want to have one sip of alcohol in college, because I was like, "I want to go against everything you think I'm gonna be."

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:31Lewis Howes?

  I joined the school musical, because they were like, "You're just gonna do sports." I sang, I played guitar, I salsa danced, I was like, "I'm gonna do everything different than what people would expect of a tall, white man," right?

• 11:42Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 11:42Lewis Howes?

  I was like, "I want to be different."

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:44Lewis Howes?

  And I think in that process, I was like, trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what, you know, what was fun for me.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:51Lewis Howes?

  Uh, as opposed to just trying to fit the box and the mold of everyone else. Because you can lose yourself in that fitting in, I think.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  You can lose yourself in the fitting in, and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in.

• 12:01Lewis Howes?

  It's true. Trying to go against it, I'll tell you, yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really hard, I mean, it's a thing that-

• 12:08Speaker 01

  It's a quote that is, Braving the Wilderness is all about this, starts with this quote from Maya Angelou, that "We're never free until we belong nowhere, we belong everywhere which is nowhere, which is no place at all." Which I thought was a terrible quote for many years. And I was like, "Why are you saying that, Dr. Angelou? You're pissing me off." But then I realized, really, and she says, "The cost is high, but the reward is great." And I think, I think that's the thing, that I feel like I belong everywhere I go, no matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  And the minute I become who you want me to be, in order to fit in and make sure people like me, is the moment I no longer belong anywhere. And that is hard.

• 13:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  I mean, that's a hard practice. That's an everyday practice.

• 13:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I can, I can be whoever you want me to be like that.

• 13:10Lewis Howes?

  You're like a chameleon, you said.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Oh, I can be totally like a chameleon. Like, sometimes, it's really funny, because like, I always, because I travel so much, I have all these miles, I always sit in business class, and I'm normally the only woman in business class. Every now and then, there's one other, maybe, which is a conversation we should be having, too.

• 13:25Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  But it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. Like, I can talk about whatever that person, like, and it's so funny, because we'll talk about sports usually first, or football, or we'll talk about politics, and he'll say, "What do you do?" And I'll say, "I study vulnerability and shame." "Oh, well, huh, well, I'm gonna play some Angry Birds." You know, and right that moment, like, I can just, and it's not that I know everything about everything, it's just...

• 13:57Lewis Howes?

  So you're saying most men don't want to chime in and learn more about that?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  No, that's usually, if I want to go to sleep, I'm like, "I'm a shame researcher. What do you do?" And he's like, "Okay."

• 14:06Speaker 01

  But I think I can be anything, like...

• 14:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're adaptable.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  I'm adaptable, and adaptable is great, because anyone that comes to my home, or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable.

• 14:18Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  But then, if I get so adaptable, that my goal, my intention of adapting, is to make sure you like me, then that's when I betray myself.

• 14:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. What would you say is the time in your life you've been the most alone?

• 14:30Speaker 01

  High school.

• 14:31Lewis Howes?

  The whole journey?

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just sucked.

• 14:34Lewis Howes?

  It does suck.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  And you know, my daughter just graduated from high school and she had this amazing experience. You know, just incredible experience and it was so healing to watch.

• 14:47Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think it happened because she, I think she had the confidence to put herself out there and you know, student council president and you know, that kind. I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what, you belong here. No matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn't matter, you belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Does that make sense?

• 15:22Lewis Howes?

  Because they felt safe coming back, no matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four and fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team. But in my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a cheerleader or you were on the drill team and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club. You know, I would have been in debate or those kind of things.

• 15:57Lewis Howes?

  Newspaper.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure, yeah, yeah, photographer for the yearbook.

• 16:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  But those things did not have a lot of value.

• 16:04Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Not, no.

• 16:05Lewis Howes?

  Your parents didn't instill that as something credible or worthwhile?

• 16:08Speaker 01

  No, it's just I, cool was the number one value at home. Cool, lots of friends, popular.

• 16:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't. And so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know, I found, I found a place to be, you know, cool. And yeah, that just goes bad fast.

• 16:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:34Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this?

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, we've talked about all of it.

• 16:37Lewis Howes?

  You have?

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:38Lewis Howes?

  You've let it go, you've processed it all?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, because they, you know, they read my books as I write them and they're, you know, they're like. Shit, this is exactly what every parent wants. A child who grows up to be a shame researcher. But, no, they just, that's the miracle of my parents. Like, my parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone, I think, could ever know, which is, it doesn't end when your kids leave. Like, they keep growing and exploring and, you know, and however hard it was for me not being able to be, you know, we did not do vulnerability growing up.

• 17:12Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 17:12Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. Like, yeah, like, our family motto was literally lock and load. Like, get ready, you know, family trips. You're in the car for five hours, it's all six of us. You really have to go to the bathroom, but the rest stop is on the other side of the highway, we're not pulling over. Like, suck it up, hold it. Like, we were tough. We were tough. Like, we'd fall down and get hurt, you know. My dad would say, like, "I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball." You know, like, yeah, like, we were tough. And so, and we were, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done.

• 17:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  And so, however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s. You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16, you know.

• 18:02Lewis Howes?

  Was he able to process that, or no?

• 18:04Speaker 01

  No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life. But she was the most amazing person in the world. But everyone knew she was an alcoholic, so my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at our, at her house growing up, because it was the 50s and she was divorced. You know, and so my mom became the head of the drill team and the, you know, the valedictorian. And, and so however hard it was for me growing up, having to try to outrun vulnerability, it was a million times harder on my parents. And they didn't, they did what they knew how to do. And they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so, I don't have...

• 18:54Speaker 01

  I think the hard part comes from people that I've interviewed my whole life, where the parents don't grow and change. And they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did. As opposed to my parents, who lean in and say, "Tell me more about that." "I have a funny story. You hear a funny story about my dad?" "It's great." So, we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so, my husband's a pediatrician. So, like, we know a lot about child development from our, just from school. And so, when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, "You know, you have two choices." "Like, Louis, you have two choices. You can either hand me the water, I'm gonna have to take it from you. What is your choice?" So that if you decide not to hand it to me, and I have to take it, it's not my fault. That was your choice, right.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  And so, one night, I was talking to Ellen, and we were at my dad's house in San Antonio. And I was like, "Ellie, you need to turn off Dora the Explorer. It's time to go to bed." And she's like, "Mm-mm." And I said, "Ellen, you have two choices. You can get up and turn off the TV, or I'm gonna get up and turn it off for you. And if I have to get up and, you know, turn off the TV, you're gonna lose privileges to watch it tomorrow."

• 19:59Lewis Howes?

  And that's your choice.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's your choice. So, you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me, and he was like, "Ah, damn, sis, what are you raising, a hostage negotiator?" I was like, "Dad?" And he's like, "Seriously, Renee?" We had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that. So, the next day, I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio, and he's watching Ellen. And he's in the driveway, it's like 110 degrees in San Antonio. And he's sweating. He's like, "Ellen, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up, or I'm gonna have to put it up for you. And the second one's a dumbass choice." So, I was like, "Wow, you're so close."

• 20:35Lewis Howes?

  You're getting there.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  You're getting there.

• 20:37Lewis Howes?

  You're getting there.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  My parents are amazing in that way, that like, they're learning and changing. So, I think it's harder when parents say, "I'm done. What you got was what you got. No apologies, no change, no remorse. Take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker."

• 20:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  And I think we see that a lot.

• 20:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we do. I mean, what should parents be learning about how they can grow? I mean, how can they start to be aware? Because I think it starts with being aware.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 21:07Lewis Howes?

  Of what they know and what they don't know, and being receptive to learning something different, which is really hard to do. I think once you've had these habits for so long. So that's the first thing. And I want to dive into the lack of vulnerability with what's happening in Charlottesville right now as well. Because I know you did something on that this morning. So I guess, how can parents listen to this and be aware and be willing to move forward in a different way of learning something new when they're so stuck in their ways, potentially, that it's worked for them to this point to get to where they're at?

• 21:39Speaker 01

  You know, I think, I believe, this with my whole heart. I believe that 99.9% of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have.

• 21:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. I think we're doing the best we can with what we have. And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from, that I have to just come down. People defend their parenting like they're defending their lives because it's such a shame minefield.

• 22:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, and a great example is the work you're doing around men and vulnerability. I cannot tell you the number of fathers and hundreds, if not thousands, of fathers I've interviewed that said, "I shamed my son every time he was vulnerable."

• 22:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  "I put him down. I made fun of them. I hit him every time he was vulnerable." And now I look back and I know it's because that's the way I was raised or I was afraid he'd be soft and get hurt at school or, you know, whatever the thing is. And so I think for parents, it's about understanding, giving yourself permission. To not have been, I'm not perfect, like, you know, like, I've never not been a researcher and a parent. My husband's a pediatrician. Our kids will be in therapy.

• 23:00Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  And the reason why I think that'll be so successful is, there's only two kind of kids you raise. Kids who will ask for help when they need it, are kids who won't. And that's as good as it gets, is to raise a kid who'll ask for help.

• 23:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I never asked for help.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:14Lewis Howes?

  I was always suffering inside.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 23:16Lewis Howes?

  And I always felt shameful, guilty, and I just, my way of asking was being angry, resentful, mad, hitting people in sports.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:24Lewis Howes?

  Or outside of sports, because that's all I knew.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  I'll tell you a story about a guy that I interviewed, very, one of the first men I interviewed when I went from interviewing all women to men, was a guy who said, I said, "What a shame for you." And he used the P U S S Y word, which is like, just synonymous with shame in male culture, right?

• 23:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  And he said, "I'll never forget the day that changed my life." He said, "I was at football practice, I was a freshman in high school, and he said, the coach yelled, 'Get on the line.'" And I didn't want to get on the line, the line of scrimmage.

• 23:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  In case people don't know, I know you know, but, he asked me to make sure I walked through all the sports metaphors with him now.

• 24:06Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  And he said, "I was afraid to get on the line, because I know, you know, it's where people crash into each other. And so, I must have had fear on my face, because my coach looked at me and said, 'Don't be a P U S S Y, get on the line.'" And he said, "That's the day that I learned that the way you deal with that is you change that fear into rage." And he said, "And I just plowed over the guy across from me." And then he said, "Then I spent the next 20 years plowing over my wife, my children, my colleagues, the people who worked for me."

• 24:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  He said, "That's what I did with my fear."

• 24:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I mean, I can definitely relate.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:47Lewis Howes?

  I mean... I remember being picked last on a, on a team once. When it was a coed sport, we were playing dodgeball on the playground. I think it was third or fourth grade. And there's two captains, two guys. And they were picking one at a time, right?

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Oh god, brutal.

• 25:02Lewis Howes?

  They pick all the guys.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:03Lewis Howes?

  And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be the last guy chosen.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:06Lewis Howes?

  But then they go and pick all the girls. And then, then I'm gonna pick my name. I'm just by default the last pickers team. And so as a, as a, you know, a boy trying to fit in, in third or fourth grade. It was devastating. And I told myself in that moment, I was like, never again will I be picked last at any sport.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  I'll do whatever it takes.

• 25:26Lewis Howes?

  I am going to be a machine. I'm gonna train for six hours a night. I'm going to, you know, take no prisoners mentality and just, I mean, I dominated on that dodgeball game that day. I was just like throwing the ball, like just diving everywhere. I was like, never again.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  And did you ever get picked last again?

• 25:41Lewis Howes?

  Never got picked last again.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:43Lewis Howes?

  But, and it helped me achieve, you know, was all state in multiple sports. Was all American in two sports. I broke world records. I played professional football. I play on the USA handball team now. And it guided me towards achieving these things, but it left me feeling very unfulfilled every time I'd achieve them. Or anytime we lose, it was like an attack on my life. Every loss we ever had on a sport, it was like my life was at stake. And I felt like I was worthless. Because if I didn't win.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13Lewis Howes?

  That meant no one was gonna accept me, or I wasn't good enough, or I was gonna be picked last or something. So I would take it so personally when I wouldn't win. And then I would take it out on my family, my girlfriends, my friends, everything. And I didn't know how to communicate. And I'm still learning, you know, I'm still imperfect every day, but it's like, I wasn't even aware. There was never information about how to connect or how to communicate and feel like it was okay or you're allowed to. Because anytime you try to talk about any vulnerabilities as a guy, growing up for me, it was like you're P U S S Y.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:44Lewis Howes?

  Don't be a little girl, or don't be a B I T C H, you know, all these things. And so it's very, I think it's very hard for me, and especially for a lot of men who grew up to stand alone. And feel like they belong in an isolated world. If they're not going to join a group that's going to make fun of them or put other people down. So how do we stand alone? When we're not introverted, or we want to be around other people? How do we? How can men communicate better or feel like it's okay to be vulnerable?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:12Lewis Howes?

  We were talking before about how, you know, most men that I know played sports with would never watch The Power of Vulnerability TED Talk, or they would never read, you know, books from you or Oprah that I'm aware of, because they would talk bad about, you know, female leaders trying to talk about vulnerability.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:28Lewis Howes?

  You know, they would say, "That's soft. That's weak."

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:31Lewis Howes?

  "I don't watch that stuff. I don't read that stuff." And really, that's the stuff we need the most, in my opinion.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  And I think it's changing. I think I told you earlier that I think 50% of the readers of Daring Greatly are men, and the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations are men. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why.

• 27:47Lewis Howes?

  Wise men.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  I can, huh, I hope, I can flip it for you on a dime.

• 27:52Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  So it used to take me, when men would, when men would say, this is how the call would go, "Hey, we'd love for you to come in and work with our leadership team. We saw your TED Talk. We thought it was great. Are you available?" And I'd say, "Sure. What do you want me to talk about?" And they'd say, "Anything but vulnerability and shame." And I would say...

• 28:12Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 28:13Speaker 01

  "So what do you want me to talk about if I don't talk about vulnerability?" And they'd say, "Courage." And then I would say, "Okay." Then I would try to spend like a half an hour explaining the relationship between vulnerability and courage.

• 28:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Because all men want to be brave.

• 28:24Lewis Howes?

  Isn't vulnerability courage?

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Vulnerability is courage. So I only have to ask...

• 28:28Lewis Howes?

  Isn't vulnerability power?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yes. I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing. It's this. Vulnerability is defined as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. Can you name one act of courage that you've ever been involved in or that you've ever even witnessed that did not involve uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure? And it's a loaded question, because I know the answer's no, because I've asked it thousands and thousands. I've, I've stood in front of Navy SEALs and Special Forces Military Personnel and said, "Give me an example. I want you to try hard to give me an example of courage that didn't require vulnerability." And in 10 years, I've never had a single person be able to come up. I've even had two

• 29:11Speaker 01

  guys come up to me who were in the military that said, "We're going to think about it and get with you."

• 29:15Lewis Howes?

  They never got back to you?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  "Oh, my God." I said, "Do it. I would love it. Give me an example of courage, even on the field."

• 29:24Speaker 01

  That doesn't involve vulnerability. Like if you, if it, if you think you're being brave and it doesn't involve risk or uncertainty, you're not being that brave.

• 29:33Lewis Howes?

  It's too safe?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you know how it's gonna turn out, it's not courage. And so in that moment, people go, shit. But I wanna be brave and I don't wanna be vulnerable. And I'm like, therein lies the great dilemma of our time. Yeah, no one wants to be uncomfortable. No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave. And it just doesn't work like that.

• 29:57Lewis Howes?

  Right, and anytime we try something new, we've gotta, we've gotta be uncomfortable.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  It's vulnerable.

• 30:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's vulnerable.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  I mean, when I ask people, what is vulnerability? People would say initiating sex with my wife. Sending my child out the door who thinks he's going to make the first chair in orchestra. And knowing he's probably not gonna make the orchestra at all. Getting fired. Starting my own business. Saying I love you first in a relationship. Trying to get pregnant after my first miscarriage. I mean, like, vulnerability is, it's uncertainty. It's not knowing, but doing it anyway, because it's the brave thing to do. And so, the problem is, I think, that the greatest shame trigger for men is do not be perceived as weak.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  And in our culture, we believe that vulnerability is weakness. So you don't have to skip too many steps before you go, hey, it's shaming to be vulnerable. And so, men do two things in the face of shame. Pissed off or shut down.

• 31:03Lewis Howes?

  Put on a mask.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Put on a mask. And so, what we're learning and what people are starting to see very quickly is you cannot be a courageous leader if you're not vulnerable. If you're not willing to have hard, uncomfortable conversations. Give hard feedback, receive hard feedback. Excavate issues like Charlottesville that no one wants to talk about. Like discomfort is the great enemy of courage. Like my motto is, we say it here all the time, choose courage over comfort. Cause you can't have both. And if you think you're being brave and you're super comfortable, you're not being that brave.

• 31:43Lewis Howes?

  Is there an area in your life right now where you don't feel your courage is enough?

• 31:48Lewis Howes?

  Or something you've been wanting to say to people that you haven't said fully or holding back on?

• 31:51Speaker 01

  I think the Charlottesville Facebook Live today was hard.

• 31:55Lewis Howes?

  Was it?

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yes. I was, my voice was shaking. I was shaking. In fact, we got here today and we knew we were gonna film us together, but we were gonna film some other stuff first. I said, I just need to do the Facebook Live because I don't want to lose my courage. And I think that's hard because when you're, when you talk about race and privilege and power, first of all, you're, I'm gonna get like, you know, death threats and people are gonna say, you know, all that stuff.

• 32:21Lewis Howes?

  You're wrong either way.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  You're wrong either way, right. Um, but the, the ability that I have to opt out of speaking out about it because it doesn't supposedly affect me is the definition of privilege. So I don't believe we can opt out of it.

• 32:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  And I know that I'm white, upper-middle-class, really educated, Judeo-Christian, straight. I know that I've got blinders on, that no matter how hard I work, I will say something that is not right.

• 32:50Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  And it will, people will come back and they will fire off against me around it. And it will hurt, but I'd rather take the chance in it hurting and learning. But it's always, it's scary to talk about this stuff today.

• 33:04Lewis Howes?

  It's

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Do you think?

• 33:05Lewis Howes?

  I think it's really hard. And I try to come from a place of like, super authentic and loving of all humanity all the time.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:12Lewis Howes?

  I was raised by, you know, I had two great parents, but my mom and two older sisters were really the ones who came back to me after they would go on a date with a guy. They'd be like, Louis, never do this on a date. You know, always treat women this way. So I've always tried my best.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:26Lewis Howes?

  You know, I'm imperfect in so many ways and constantly make mistakes with people.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too.

• 33:30Lewis Howes?

  But most of my team, I was telling you before, most of my team is women. I think 80% of my team is women. And

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Clearly why you're successful.

• 33:38Lewis Howes?

  Well, and they get paid more than the men on my team. Not because they're women, but because they produce better results. And I, my, my business is based on results.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:48Lewis Howes?

  I've got people of different ethnicities. I've got people of different sexual orientations. And I had someone tell me last week, they said,

• 33:56Lewis Howes?

  You know, white male privilege is a thing, and I think you need to incorporate more values into your organization. So that you're not living from this white male privileged place. And I was thinking, I was hurt by this because I get it, I'm white, I can't, there's nothing I can do based on the way I was born. There's nothing I can do.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:14Lewis Howes?

  I can't change the way how I was born, but I can choose to determine how I want to live and how I want to show up in the world. So I'm constantly trying to be mindful of speaking out more.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:23Lewis Howes?

  Of, because I think that's what a lot of my friends are saying about Charlottesville. If white men aren't opening up and talking about this more, it's not going to come across to the people that are, I guess, marching with torches, which is, just blows my mind that this is happening still. It blows me away that this is happening. I don't even understand it. I'm like, I'm blown away.

• 34:46Lewis Howes?

  I don't know. And I'm just like, how can I be a better, more impactful in this place? And how can we get rid of this? How can we end it?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:54Lewis Howes?

  Do you have the answer?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:55Lewis Howes?

  No. It just blows my mind.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  No, and I think we need to do a lot more listening than, you know, and hear what, hear from the people who've been affected by this the longest. I think we do need to speak out. I think white silence around these issues is death. I mean, I just think it's, it's terrible. I don't think we can come in and save the day. I think we need to come in and with humility and curiosity and say, this is what I think and I want to learn and I want to, if I make mistakes, let me know and I'll try to make them better.

• 35:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  And I think we need to take responsibility. And I, I think

• 35:33Speaker 01

  it's easier sometimes for me in my life

• 35:38Speaker 01

  to

• 35:41Speaker 01

  just keep asking questions, just keep reading, just keep, just keep talking about it. And when I am so uncomfortable that I don't want to do it anymore, just to keep doing it because to remember that my discomfort is, you know, that's my privilege.

• 35:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  And so I don't know that there's an answer other than discussions. And I'm not, I wasn't surprised. About Charlottesville, really? No.

• 36:04Lewis Howes?

  I just, really, it just blows my mind. Maybe I'm just ignorant to that.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think it's about being ignorant to it. It doesn't, you know, I've studied shame for 15 years and fear. Like, that's what it looks like.

• 36:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What do you think they're, these individuals margin like this are most shameful of in their own life? Why are they so?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  I would never venture to guess. Um, I, I don't know, but I do think it's about powerlessness.

• 36:28Lewis Howes?

  They feel powerless.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that people go, oh my God, okay, so the white, you know, the white guy and the khakis and the, you know, fancy polo shirt feels powerless and, you know, cry me a river.

• 36:42Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Um, I think we don't, we don't give a shit about that at our own peril. Um, not caring about it and not trying to understand it. I'm not taking it on my load, for sure. I mean, I'm not gonna add it to my back. I got other stuff to do. Um, but I am gonna try to understand it because I can't imagine a way through what needs to happen over the next decade that does not involve understanding pain. There's this incredible James Baldwin quote that says, "Now I understand why people hold on to their hate so stubbornly, because once they let it go, there's nothing but pain."

• 37:26Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Um, and I think we, we dismiss and don't care about that pain at our own peril. Um, because pain will make itself known. It, it will not be dismissed. It's not an affect or an emotion that dissipates when it's ignored.

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Well, I think this is, this is fascinating, you're saying this, because I never wanted to feel the emotional pain. It was so hard to go through.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:54Lewis Howes?

  I got a, a breakup with a girlfriend. Like, I didn't know how to deal with the emotional loss.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:59Lewis Howes?

  Of any type of pain or suffering.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:02Lewis Howes?

  As a man, and I remember being in the fetal position my freshman year in college for days, sobbing in my dorm room, just curled up in a ball, uh, because I, you know, a relationship ended and I was so sad to be alone and I didn't have this person in my life anymore. And I would take it out on the football field. I was like, I don't wanna feel this type of emotional pain. So how can I inflict as much physical pain on myself and other people? To get it out. And it's hard to switch that off and just be like this loving, vulnerable man after you're on the football field like inflicting pain on other people because you're supposed to.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  No, and I think whether we play football or not, we're much better at causing pain than we are feeling pain.

• 38:42Lewis Howes?

  You don't want to feel it.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  No, you don't. And so we cause it and we hurt other people.

• 38:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we do.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And so, and if you look at leadership, whether you're in an organization, leading a country, leading a family, as a parent, one of the cheapest, easiest ways to lead is to give people someone to hate and blame for your misery. And so we have to really watch that in our country right now. So if we, all you have to do when people are in uncertainty and fear is give them someone to blame and give them a reason to blame them. And then step back and watch everything just fall apart. And so I think that's happening right now in our country.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  And so we have to push away the rhetoric, you know, we have to own our pain. And let me tell you, it's not like you tell that story about the football field and it's so prophetic because every crisis we're up against right now, almost without exception, is about our inability, our unwillingness to deal with pain. If you look at the opioid addiction right now, across, you know, somewhere, beginning with physicians, sent the message, there's no reason for you to hurt at all.

• 40:04Lewis Howes?

  Here's a pain reliever.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Here's a pain reliever, you know, and things are not going well in your life, well, here's a way to discharge hate and pain that'll make you feel better, like.

• 40:14Lewis Howes?

  By drinking or by smoking or sex or whatever.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Medicated, addicted, in debt and obese Americans in history. Like, our tolerance for discomfort is zero.

• 40:28Lewis Howes?

  Soft.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So here's the irony, soft.

• 40:32Lewis Howes?

  What we're taught in football, don't be soft.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Don't be soft. So it's actually our inability to be vulnerable.

• 40:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  That makes us weak.

• 40:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I agree. One of the things I talk about and try to express as many people as possible is to actually put yourself through pain and discomfort every single day. I try to do this physically through working out to try to push myself farther than I want to, where I'm like emotionally want to cry.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:58Lewis Howes?

  Because I just know by conditioning myself to feel pain every single day, that when a lot of stuff comes my way, I'm capable of taking it on and processing the emotions as opposed to being like, I just need a drink. I need this. I need that. I've never been a drunk in my life, so I don't even know what that feels like. But it's hard, especially as for myself, I'll speak for myself as a man. It's hard growing up, learning how to deal with those type of emotions. It's really challenging. There's no class in school that says, okay, when you're feeling this way, Louis, here's how you're supposed to act.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  It's vulnerability.

• 41:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, here's how you're supposed to act. Here's the step-by-step process. Like, there's no process that we're taught unless it's our parents or we seek it out.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  And it's not modeled because I think parents fear kind of soft boys turning into soft men.

• 41:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Who, you know, I remember interviewing this guy who was in his 70s and I said, what is shame to you? And he's like, shame is being the kid you can shove up against the lockers.

• 41:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:59Lewis Howes?

  Shame is being the kid that you shove up?

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, being the kid that you can shove up against the lockers.

• 42:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  You know, and it's like, but really, we've got to shift it and we've got to shift it. I think it starts parenting school. Athletics is huge.

• 42:14Lewis Howes?

  Huge.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  I mean, it's a really, I mean, let me, let me, let me do this. Okay, let's do the sports thing.

• 42:21Lewis Howes?

  Do it.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Okay, ready? Okay. Two football teams. You're going to place a bet.

• 42:28Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Both of them have hurt quarterbacks. Both of them are playing, well, both of them have hurt quarterbacks. This team over here recognizes its vulnerability and is going to put in a second-string quarterback. This team ignores its vulnerability and pretends like it doesn't exist. Who are you betting on?

• 42:46Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, depends on the injury.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Oh, Jesus. Great football team.

• 42:50Lewis Howes?

  Hey, because I played hurt my whole life, you know.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say that most of us would say you are more, you are less likely to win if you do not acknowledge your vulnerabilities as.

• 43:00Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  So even if you play your quarterback,

• 43:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  you've got to make sure your line is ready.

• 43:04Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, and you've got to switch the plays up.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:06Lewis Howes?

  If his arm's hurt, you're going to pass it off.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  You're going to pass off, right.

• 43:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, give it more time in the hole, whatever you're going to do.

• 43:12Lewis Howes?

  The team that acknowledges their vulnerabilities.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Is going to be more successful.

• 43:14Lewis Howes?

  And is adaptable to change.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:16Lewis Howes?

  Is going to be more successful.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:17Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Right, so why do we think as men to pretend like you're not vulnerable makes you the most vulnerable?

• 43:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Makes you the most susceptible? I mean, we just have data, I mean, just like I could fill this whole room with data about you don't get to opt out. Let me ask you this. Do you know a guy in the world, you know, a lot of guys, right? Who can say, "I've existed this point in my life without being uncertain, at risk, or emotionally exposed?"

• 43:50Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Right, you can't not do vulnerability.

• 43:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  But you can pretend like you don't. Then you're not making choices over the behaviors you engage in when you're vulnerable.

• 43:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Then you don't know when you're vulnerable, and then you're acting nutty.

• 44:05Lewis Howes?

  And I think you pay major prices.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:08Lewis Howes?

  When you don't, when you aren't aware or when you're not acting like you're aware.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:12Lewis Howes?

  You just act like everything's fine, or you don't need help, you don't need support, you don't need to address the situation, or

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:18Lewis Howes?

  grieve, or whatever it is.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:20Lewis Howes?

  That's when you get hurt the most.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  It's when you get hurt the most.

• 44:22Lewis Howes?

  It's when you suffer the most, and I think that's when the most anger, frustration, rage.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Rage.

• 44:27Lewis Howes?

  And, I guess, divergence happens. And I was watching this video last night where they were documenting the whole process of the Charlottesville thing. I think Vice was doing this. The person interviewing like the leader, one of the guys who was like the leader of the marches or whatever, was saying about how, you know, this is our land and our forefathers were whites and it belongs to us. It's like this whole thing that it belongs to a certain race or something. It just blows my mind. It's like-

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Forgetting clearly about the Native Americans who were here-

• 44:58Lewis Howes?

  Who were here.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Before we took it.

• 45:00Lewis Howes?

  Right, exactly. But I mean, it just blows my mind that all this comes back to like feeling like we need to belong, I guess, to and protect what was ours or what's our rights, something.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  It all comes back to identity and belonging.

• 45:13Lewis Howes?

  Belonging, yeah.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  But underneath identity and belonging, there's something that we don't talk about and it comes down to power. It comes down to power. I mean, I think what we're witnessing is power over's last stand.

• 45:26Lewis Howes?

  And that's what I love. You write about how, I think, most men who come from this place feel like power is only one person or one group can have the power as opposed to we can spread the power-

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:36Lewis Howes?

  -throughout the world.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Like it's a pepperoni pizza.

• 45:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Like if I give Louis a little power, I'm gonna have less, so make sure I'm comfortable giving it to you-

• 45:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  -when it's not.

• 45:46Lewis Howes?

  Don't give any slices away.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Don't give slices away. Hold all the... And so what we see around the world right now, not just with this administration, but globally, is we see the concept of power over making a last stand. And it is not going to work. What is going to work moving forward with the completely devastatingly difficult problems we have at hand is power with and power to. Power with each other. Collective power. The things that are killing us right now, we're not going to solve by ourselves as a nation. They're global issues. We need global solutions. We need everyone at the table for them.

• 46:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  But that is a really, I mean, we are at a huge turning point in history that should not be minimized or misunderstood. I mean, for the first time ever, the problems that challenge us, challenge us the most, are problems that will not be solved with national solutions. They are global problems. That require global solutions and collaboration. And for a lot of people, that's really scary.

• 46:54Lewis Howes?

  Hard.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Hard, hard. What about us? What about me? You know, um, and last stands, you know about last stands. Last stands are violent.

• 47:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Last, last stands are fueled by desperation.

• 47:07Lewis Howes?

  Whatever it takes.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  And fear and whatever it takes.

• 47:09Lewis Howes?

  Risking it all.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Risking it all. And so what you're seeing right now are people risking it all. Showing up at these marches with fricking tiki torches. I mean, like, it's not even start around the Polynesian, how the Polynesian people feel about their tiki torches. But I mean, like, with tiki torches, basically, basically mimicking the Ku Klux Klan.

• 47:32Lewis Howes?

  It's so crazy.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  But without sheets, this is la, this is power over last stand. And these folks are nostalgic for a time that never existed.

• 47:44Lewis Howes?

  Where they thought they had the power.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Where they, yeah, they're, what they're interested in is, it was so much better back then. And what they're not saying is, when people knew their place. And so it's going to get harder.

• 47:57Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. If you had a message to give to our nation's leader, what would you say?

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Roosevelt said that the presidents, the presidency, above all else, is a place for moral leadership. And I believe there are lines that we do not cross. There are morality lines etched in dignity about people's inherent worth. And we should never cross those lines. And they have been crossed so many times around immigration, around women, around building walls. And that, at the very least, we can, we can argue about policy. We can argue about whether, you know, social security lock boxes, or what should we do around taxation? Healthcare, those are important things.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  But at the very least, a person in that office should be a moral leader.

• 48:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  And that line should never be crossed. Because when you cross it, it says so much more about your integrity than it does about the people you're attacking.

• 49:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. If you had a, a microphone, and everyone had headphones on, was listening to the end of this microphone, and you got a message to share to all the men in the world. Within 60 seconds or less. And all the men, we're gonna put on headphones and hear a message from you.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  It's very Orwellian, I like it.

• 49:22Lewis Howes?

  And you got one chance to say something to these men. From all over the world, and they could all understand English, and they understood you.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  You're taking care of all the logistics.

• 49:31Lewis Howes?

  All logistics, they got it on. It's not fuzzy, there's no wifi signal, everyone's got access to hearing your voice for 60 seconds. All the men, and all the women are actually standing by listening as well. What would you say to all the men of the world, in general?

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Golly. Um, you know, I wouldn't wanna screw that up. Let me think, um, yeah. I think I would say that vulnerability is not weakness. It's about the willingness to show up and be seen when you can't control the outcome. And it is actually our greatest measure of courage.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  So...

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Show up in an authentic way and let us see your hearts. Because we know how lonely you actually are.

• 50:22Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, men are lonely.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, it's, it's really, men are lonely, it's really hard.

• 50:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  But I, I would not, I think that's, I don't think I would say anything differently to women either. You know, because I think there is certainly, you know, for women, the greatest shame trigger is do it all, do it perfectly, and never let them see you sweat, look perfect, work perfect.

• 50:49Lewis Howes?

  In all areas.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  In all areas, yeah. Yeah, be smoking hot and brilliant and this, but don't ever look like you're putting any effort toward it. And so...

• 50:57Lewis Howes?

  It's so easy, right?

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Right, it is, I don't, I don't understand why my sisters have not nailed that. But, uh, I think so, it's hard for women to be vulnerable because it's less than perfect. You know, um...

• 51:12Lewis Howes?

  You mean women aren't wearing masks?

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's terrible because then the two collide. And you see in a lot of partnerships, I mean, I've seen it so much in my research, this contract we have, where I'll stay smoking hot and awesome. And, you know, money and provider shame is such a real thing for men. And, you know, you do this, and this is our contract, and we're both in straitjackets till we die. Yeah, and so like-

• 51:42Lewis Howes?

  How do we remove those jackets?

• 51:44Speaker 01

  We just start getting real with each other. We just start being really honest. And we see each other. You know, we really see each other.

• 51:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, wow.

• 51:58Lewis Howes?

  I've got a few minutes left, so I'm gonna be mindful of these questions.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  I know, unfortunately, let's go now, let's cut it.

• 52:04Lewis Howes?

  I could ask you, I could talk to you for hours. Is there anything you feel ashamed of still?

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Oh, I have moments for sure, like, I will have moments of... But now I know, I mean, it's, we can't ever get rid of shame. What we can do is develop resilience to shame. So when it happens and it washes over, that warm wash that makes you feel small and not enough, when that washes over me, rather than yelling at my kids or just decimating myself with hateful language, you know, and like, "You're stupid," or "You're not..." Now, when it washes over me, I'm like, "Okay, I'm in shame, don't talk, text, or type. What happened?" So there are still, I mean, I still have triggers around it. I still have triggers around it, and I still think it's probably the same. Motherhood, trying to, you know, do everything and balance everything and be where I'm supposed

• 52:52Speaker 01

  to be, and that's still hard sometimes, you know?

• 52:56Lewis Howes?

  What's the process that someone should take on when they feel shame, anger, rage?

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Well, shame is, shame I can really help you with is, first and foremost, talk to someone, talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love. So if you really, if you, if something happens and you're overwhelmed with shame, the first thing you need to do is get back on your emotional feet, don't talk, text, or type to anyone, because the first, one of the things we want to do is push that shit out on other people.

• 53:20Lewis Howes?

  I'm good at that.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:21Lewis Howes?

  I'm guilty of that.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, yeah. So just get into a dark, quiet place, and then talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love. Just be like, "Dude, it's okay, like, you screwed this up, you, what you said was super hurtful, you're gonna have to circle back and clean that stuff up." But give yourself a break here, just like I would talk to Ellen or Charlie if they made a mistake. Then reach out and talk to someone about what you're feeling. Shame cannot survive being spoken. So if you, if I call you and I'm like, "Oh my God, Louis, I'm in a shame shitstorm. You're not gonna believe what happened." And you listen to me and you respond empathically or empathetically. With something like, "Oh my God, I've been there." Or, "Oh God, I get it. I'm sorry. That sucks." Shame can't hold on, because shame can't survive empathy.

• 54:07Lewis Howes?

  I 100% agree with that. A quick example, for 25 years, I held on to the shame of being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. And I was like, if anyone knew this about me, you know, my life was over. That's how shameful I felt, embarrassed and,

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:24Lewis Howes?

  You know, abused, I felt from the experience. And when I finally had the courage to share it, it took me, you know, a couple of years to share it over and over many, many times. I don't feel shameful. Like, I can talk about it openly and freely, without feeling embarrassed, without feeling weak, soft, vulnerable. Because, you know, I own the experience and it's not something I have to hold in and like react through rage, because I can just share it. And I can communicate, as opposed to

• 54:53Speaker 01

  It's so brave.

• 54:54Lewis Howes?

  Hold into this.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:55Lewis Howes?

  And I think whenever I face anything that I'm scared to talk about now, I just say, "Well, how can I talk about it?" How can I journal? I like to journal first.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Oh, that's huge.

• 55:04Lewis Howes?

  So no one can shame me, right?

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's huge.

• 55:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And then I start having conversations. And when we have ownership over that shame, I feel like it doesn't own us anymore.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  I mean, so that's a perfect example. First of all, it's devastating that that happens. It happens to boys.

• 55:20Lewis Howes?

  One in six.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they think that's an underestimate. They think that that-

• 55:25Lewis Howes?

  No, one in six is what's known.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they think it's probably double that, because of our culture and inability of boys to speak safely, even to their own parents around it.

• 55:34Lewis Howes?

  I never told anyone.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:36Lewis Howes?

  My parents didn't know.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Right. So, so here's the example exactly. You talk about it now. So when, so two choices. You own your story, you get to write the ending. You don't own the story, the story owns you.

• 55:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  So then you talk about it now, so shame can't hold on. But then people see and hear you talking about it. And it gives them permission to talk about it. That's why shame cannot hold on to being spoken. So your courage to talk about that- Deflates shame. It takes it out of the air.

• 56:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  It's like filtering poison out of water.

• 56:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Because you've got the courage to speak up. I mean, and that's how it works. And that's how all of this works. Is that we own our story, or it owns us.

• 56:21Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. Final two questions. I know I've got to hurry up. Okay.

• 56:27Lewis Howes?

  This is called the three truths. I ask everyone at the end of the interviews, the three truths. You've written many books, you know, all number one New York Times bestsellers. Let's imagine it's your last day, many, many years from now.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:38Lewis Howes?

  You get to write the story when it's your last day on your own terms, right? You've written every book you've ever wanted to write. You've said everything you've always wanted to say. You've done every video, interview, whatever it is, you've achieved anything you set out to do.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:51Lewis Howes?

  But for whatever reason, it's all erased and gone. So no one has access to any of this information.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:56Lewis Howes?

  And you're there with all the people you care about. And you have a piece of paper and a pen. And you get to write down three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced in life. This is all people would have of your message left behind. What would you say are the three truths for you?

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Steve, Ellen, and Charlie were my greatest true loves, for sure.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  After that, everything seems small.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Love takes courage. Be brave. Let yourself be seen.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  And don't wait for the grownups to get there. It's, that's, that's the myth. We don't know what we're doing. We're just putting our best foot forward. So if you have an idea and answer, go for it.

• 57:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:44Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. That's cool.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:46Lewis Howes?

  Before I ask the final question.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:48Lewis Howes?

  I want to make sure you guys go get the book.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  I'm scared for the final one. Cut. Let's go. Wrap it up.

• 57:53Lewis Howes?

  The final question's easy. But this is, Braving the Wilderness, The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone. Make sure you guys go get this book. It's going to be a game changer. Highly recommend it. I'll have it linked up everywhere on the site and below this video. Very powerful. You're an incredible writer. And I just know this is going to serve so many people who feel alone in the world of uncertainty. And I want to acknowledge you, Bernay, for being an incredible gift to the world with all of your imperfections and the beautifulness that you have within you. I think it takes so much courage to share these things, the way you've been doing them for years, decades, you've been opening up and talking about it.

• 58:35Lewis Howes?

  And to bring it out to a public platform and continue to dive in deeper. I acknowledge you because the weight that it carries of listening to everyone else's pain, as I've started to open up about mine, I just feel the weight of everyone now sharing with me. I can only imagine

• 58:54Speaker 01

  It's a lot sometimes.

• 58:55Lewis Howes?

  The weight that you get to carry and are, you know, privileged to carry because of the work you're getting to do and the impact you have on so many people who feel, who are suffering, who feel like there is no hope, there is no way out, who are stuck in all areas of their life. You give people such inspiration and tools and education on how to transform their life. So I acknowledge you for all the work that you do.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 59:21Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome, you're welcome. Uh, this is the final question.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 59:25Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome, it's my pleasure, yeah. Um, the final question is simple, it's what's your definition of greatness?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  To own your story and love yourself through that process, that's greatness to me.

• 59:38Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 59:42Lewis Howes?

  That was awesome. There you have it, my friends, I hope you enjoyed this powerful interview with Brene Brown as much as I enjoyed connecting with her. Just so much love, joy, uh, grace, beauty, wisdom from her. And I just really love connecting with her, her entire team that helped make this happen. They were all incredible and so much love to them down in Houston right now. Again, if you enjoyed this interview, please share it with your friends. Let's get this message out far and wide and spread the love for Brene. The link is lewishouse.com/536. The full video interview is back on the show notes page at that link.

• 1:00:23Lewis Howes?

  All the other resources we talked about are at lewishouse.com/536. Again, if you're listening to this, make sure to take a screenshot on your podcast app on your phone, upload it to Instagram story, post it on your Instagram page, your Facebook. Quick page, send out a tweet. There's lots of great quotes that we added from Brene that you can get at the show notes link as well. So all that good stuff is available for you. Just make sure to tag me @lewishouse and @brenebrown. So we know who's listening, who's watching out there as we'd love to connect with you and reply back as well. So thank you so much and I hope to see you sharing it out far and wide to support Brene. Again, as Paulo Coelho said, "The strongest love is the love that can demonstrate its

• 1:01:08Lewis Howes?

  fragility." I hope you guys enjoyed this one and as always, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.