The House of Boleyn (with Tracy Borman)

Where does a woman go when a King is wooing her and won't stop? Dana speaks with Chief Historian of Historic Royal Palaces, Tracy Borman, about her newest historical fiction novel, THE HOUSE OF BOLEYN. Support Noble Blood: —ORDER 'THE ARCANE ARTS' https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/771398/the-arcane-arts-by-s-d-coverly/ — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/noblebloodtales — Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250840578/anatomyalovestory' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250861016/immortalityalovestory' See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dana Schwartz?

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• 2:26Dana Schwartz?

  Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Listener discretion advised.

• 2:38Dana Schwartz?

  Hello, I am so thrilled to be back again with one of my all-time favorite historians, the brilliant Tracy Borman. Correct me if I'm getting any of these titles wrong, but Chief Historian of Historic Royal Palaces, Executive of the Heritage Education Trust, Chancellor and Professor of Tudor History at Lincoln Bishop University, and just all-around brilliant bestselling writer, historian, and novelist.

• 3:06Speaker 03

  That is correct. I'm really lovely to hear. So thank you ever so much. I'm really thrilled to be back.

• 3:13Dana Schwartz?

  Your new book, The House of Boleyn, is out in the US on August 4, and it is a novelization of historical fiction about the rise of the Boleyn family. I think I speak for a lot of people interested in this period of history. The Tudors are sort of a gateway drug. People are fascinated by that period, Henry's Six Wives, and Anne Boleyn particularly. And so it was such a joy to read this book that presented the Bolins in, I can say honestly, a light I had never seen them before.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, I'm so pleased. That really does make me very happy because, of course, you're absolutely right. The Tudors are the gateway drug, and the Bolins are the gateway drug to the Tudors. They're sort of the most famous family in Tudor England. They've been written about. They've been shown on screen. There are websites. There are all the social media accounts, all sorts of things. So I thought, okay, what can I do that is different and that is fresh? And that's why I decided to set The House of Boleyn, which is a play on words, at Hever Castle, their beautiful home in the southeast England countryside. And the reason I wanted to do this, apart from bringing a fresh perspective,

• 4:34Speaker 03

  was to show the Bolins as they really were. Like when they're off duty, when they're not pretending to be these slick courtiers and political operators. Hever was their refuge and where they went to escape from all of that, to escape Henry VIII in Anne Boleyn's case. And so hopefully, it's provided a more authentic view of this controversial family.

• 5:01Dana Schwartz?

  To rewind a bit before the famous Anne Boleyn, who of course became Henry VIII's second wife, before Anne's meteoric rise, who were the Bolins? What was their position in Tudor society?

• 5:16Speaker 03

  So one of the great myths is that Henry VIII basically plucked the Bolins from obscurity and made them big. And this was definitely not the case, because actually, the Bolins were probably northern French originally and came over with William the Conqueror in 1066. They settled in Norfolk, so east of England, in the east of England. And they gradually kind of built up their prosperity. They became traders in wool, farmers, landowners. And then they started to move in royal circles in the 1400s. So at least, you know, a century before Henry VIII, they were already on the rise big time.

• 6:00Speaker 03

  And they came into the orbit of such monarchs as Richard III and Henry VIII's father. And really, just it built from there. So they were absolutely already established, both as a family and within royal circles by the time Henry VIII noticed Anne Boleyn. And we should say as well that Anne wasn't the first Boleyn who Henry noticed. Really, he was a very big fan of her father, Thomas, who was a rising star in Henry's court. And from the very beginning of his reign, because Henry came to the throne aged of 17. So he's a very young king. And Thomas Boleyn then was in his mid-30s. So I think he was almost like a father figure for Henry VIII.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  He knew that he had a great deal of experience, and he trusted him and promoted him. So yeah, it's not just all this, oh yeah, Henry falls in love with Anne, and then her whole family rise. They're already rising.

• 7:00Dana Schwartz?

  You know, there was a point, I think it was made in a Gareth Russell history book, where he points out that also the line between the nobility and the wealthy landowners like the Bolins wasn't quite as stark as we might imagine with regards to intermarrying, just because there weren't that many elite aristocratic families at that time. They would run out of people to marry.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Exactly. It gets a bit incestuous, really. And so Gareth's absolutely right. And actually, one particular moment does elevate the Bolins socially. And that's when Thomas Boleyn's father, William, marries Lady Margaret Butler. And so she's the mother of Thomas Boleyn. And she's an Irish noblewoman and heiress. She's the daughter of the Earl of Ormond, one of the most distinguished nobles in Ireland. So I think people aren't that aware that the Bolins have this Irish heritage. And that's what gave them that crucial bit of pedigree. So I think people still saw them as new money. They've made their wealth from trade.

• 8:08Speaker 03

  And then thanks to Margaret, that's when they become more socially acceptable.

• 8:14Dana Schwartz?

  As you mentioned earlier, there's been plenty of depictions of the Bolins. Maybe the most surface-level version of Thomas Boleyn that sometimes appears in pop culture is that he's this conniving man who uses both of his daughters just to, you know, for lack of a better phrase, prostitute them for the king.

• 8:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:35Dana Schwartz?

  Your Thomas Boleyn is a much more nuanced character and and I it it seems more accurate to how he actually might have been. Can you speak a little bit to how you imagine Thomas Boleyn might have actually been as a person?

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. I should say I did a huge amount of research for this novel, even though I've been researching the Bollins for years. I really wanted to go in deep for this. And everything I found out about Thomas Boleyn pointed to him being an affectionate father who was trying to protect his family, not use them as collateral damage in his rise to the top. And so and you just have to look at the way he really invests in Anne Boleyn's education. And he sang abroad when she's 12 or thereabouts. And he also keeps one of Anne's letters.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  So Anne writes to him when she's just about 11, 12 years old. He cherishes that letter and keeps it with him always. And and you can see how often he's read it as well. This is a man, lots of papers pass his desk. There's no reason why he would keep this letter from his 12 year old daughter unless it meant something. And I do think as well, Thomas genuinely wanted to protect Anne when he kept bringing her back to Hever. When Henry starts to show her interest and pursue her. This isn't a strategy, I don't think. It's always presented as, oh, yeah, you know, it's treat him mean, keep him keen, drive Henry mad with frustrated lust.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  And then he'll marry Anne. I don't think it was. I think genuinely, Thomas knew how dangerous the king was. And he wanted to protect his daughter from that.

• 10:16Dana Schwartz?

  Especially given how it ended with Anne, which I don't know if anyone could have seen coming. How the king would be quite that dangerous. That that takes such a melancholy note.

• 10:28Speaker 03

  Absolutely. I mean, honestly, I think even seconds before Anne died on the scaffold at the Tower, he didn't think it was going to happen. Eyewitnesses noted that as she walked to the scaffold, she kept looking over her shoulder, expecting a messenger from the king saying, okay, look, I've taught you a lesson now. Uh, and the whole thing's off.

• 10:51Dana Schwartz?

  Oh.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  And I'll just send you to Hymory. And I just think it's heartbreaking because it was unprecedented for a Queen of England to be executed. And I think it shocked everybody. And I do think, uh, you know, I work at the Tower of London and we we've done a lot of research into this. And the fact that they just use an old arrow chest as a coffin says to me that nobody thought this was going to happen. They hadn't prepared for it. And, you know, Henry does go through with it. Uh, and it must have been just beyond shocking, I think.

• 11:24Dana Schwartz?

  You speak about that retreat back to Hever Castle in this book. Obviously, the House of Boleyn focuses on on Hever particularly. So for those unfamiliar with the broad strokes of the story, after Anne comes back from France, she's very sophisticated. She's learned European courtly manners and fashion, catches Henry's eye. And then can you take us through the story about when she leaves court then?

• 11:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. Anne arrives at the English court in the spring of 1522. And she stands out from the beginning because she has had these several years in France and before that in the Netherlands. And she literally has a, you know, je ne sais quoi. She's she's dressed in French fashion. And she probably speaks with a bit of a French accent, I like to think. And she has charisma. I would really like to emphasize this about the Bollins because, yes, they were brilliant and and politically shrewd and all the rest of it. But they were a charismatic lot. And I think that's a big part of the appeal for Henry VIII. And all of the commentators at the time are at pains to point out that Anne is not beautiful.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  They all say the same. Uh, she's got dark hair when blonde hair is fashionable. Her skin is swarthy, not pale. And all the rest of it. But she has this X factor, this allure. And soon she has a whole host of male admirers. I think she's just proved that, hey, looks don't matter. If you've got the the kind of self-confidence and the charisma and you know you're special, you're gonna get quite a few admirers. And that's exactly what happened.

• 13:04Dana Schwartz?

  It's why men don't understand why women love Benedict Cumberbatch. Sometimes it's not the traditional leading man looks.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  I couldn't agree more. Absolutely. People who on paper shouldn't be, you know, heartthrobs, they end up being because of that, that kind of twinkle in the eye, that confidence. And and that's definitely what Anne had. And, you know, one of her first suitors was sort of Irish cousin of hers, James Butler. So from her grandmother Margaret's family, um, but she didn't like the idea. She thought, I can do better than that. I don't really want to go and live in Ireland. So she sets her sights higher to Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland, one of the most eligible bachelors in court, and he seems to have fallen in love with her. But then Cardinal Wolsey, Henry VIII's minister, gets in the way of that. And then finally, in in sort of about 1526, so four years after Anne first appeared at court,

• 13:56Speaker 03

  Henry notices her big time. He rides out in this joust, wearing an embroidered heart that's in flames. And a motto in French that means, I declare, I dare not. In other words, somebody has my heart, but I don't. So here it is. Everybody knows by then, he's fallen for Anne Boleyn. And then the next several years are spent, Henry trying to, you know, just persuade Anne to be his mistress. Because it's too difficult to get this annulment of his first marriage to Catherine of Aragon. So he's he's absolutely, he's trying for the annulment, but he's desperate to have Anne. And and this is when her visits to Hever start to become more and more frequent.

• 14:40Dana Schwartz?

  For those who maybe don't quite know how the story ends, from Anne's perspective, it is a daunting task to think, I'm going to cast aside this Spanish princess of major pedigree with major world allies and and break from the Catholic Church. Why wouldn't Anne just become Henry's mistress? Are there not? I mean, there are some material benefits to that, but there are costs as well.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think there are, absolutely. And and I think one of the biggest reasons why Anne wouldn't be Henry's mistress is she'd seen what happened to her sister. So Mary Boleyn was also a mistress of Henry VIII, one of a few ladies at court who had that distinction. And what it proved was that Henry quickly loses interest when he has what he wants. He's a natural hunter. He wants something that's out of reach. And with Mary Boleyn, yeah, they have an affair for a while. They may have had a child. Her daughter Catherine could have been Henry's. And then she's discarded her reputation in ruins.

• 15:46Speaker 03

  And Anne, from the very beginning and to her great credit, wants more for herself than that. It comes back to that kind of self-confidence, that self-belief, which is rare, I think, in a woman at this time. Or at least she might feel it, but society might not let her express it. But but Anne is backed by her father in this. He doesn't want to see another daughter ruined. Um, as well, I think there's another reason, though. During my research for the House of Boleyn, I found evidence to suggest that actually, there was somebody else who had Anne's heart. And it didn't seem at all to me that there was any love on Anne's part, or even any attraction really on her part towards Henry.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  It seems to have been all one way. Now, the frustrating thing is, we have all of Henry's love letters to Anne. We don't have her replies. So that is, it's a one sided story that history has left us. But I kind of explored the possibility that she doesn't want Henry. And she's coming back to Hever genuinely because she wants to escape him. And perhaps because Hever is quite close to somebody who does have her heart.

• 16:55Dana Schwartz?

  It's also a very tricky situation because Henry is the boss. Even if you don't want to become his mistress, you don't want to make him upset.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  Exactly. And there's only so long you can say no to the King of England. Yeah, he especially like Henry, who I kind of think is a spoiled child, Billy. And yes, he he wants what he can't have. And then he he gets very, very angry and frustrated when things don't go his way. And he is dangerous. Pretty early in his reign, he he executes two of his father's ministers on no charge whatsoever, really. And people know this by the time that he starts courting Anne in the mid 1520s. And Thomas Boleyn certainly knows it. And what a dangerous world. He probably thinks, no, Anne would be better off just marrying a local nobleman and steering well clear.

• 17:49Dana Schwartz?

  I mean, in retrospect, I think she would have been.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  I know. And it's those great what if moments. If only she had been allowed to follow her heart. I think, yeah, things would have turned out very differently.

• 18:03Dana Schwartz?

  And as you point out, Henry is not a patient man. I always found it interesting when reading about him constructing his castles, making his architects never going to work overtime because when he had an idea, he wanted it immediately.

• 18:18Speaker 03

  Absolutely. So impatient. He doesn't like waiting, whether it's palaces or wives. He he wants it now. And then we get the thing, he kind of sates his appetite and then he moves on to the next thing. And that's why, you know, he builds more palaces than any other king. It's about 60 of them in his repertoire. And it's just the same with every, he he has these great passions and then they burn out and then he's on to the next thing. And I think Anne noticed that. And so did her father. And she thinks, yeah, I'm going to tread a bit carefully here. But, as I said, there comes a point where you have to succumb to the inevitable. And and that's eventually what happens with Anne.

• 19:02Dana Schwartz?

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• 22:56Dana Schwartz?

  So Henry, while Anne is at Hever, begins sending her extravagant gifts to try to woo her. It's a fascinating period of history, just because it feels so modern. But what sort of gifts does a monarch send to woo a would be mistress?

• 23:14Speaker 03

  So money is one of the gifts, just yeah, give me the cash, you know, jewelry. And there is one particular gift that Henry, so the story goes, gives to Anne and it causes some controversy. So Henry has a rival for Anne's heart in the form of court poet Thomas Wyatt, who grows up very close to where Anne lives, they're childhood friends, their fathers are friends. And Henry gives Anne a heart shaped ruby on a chain. And then he's playing bowls with his rival, Thomas Wyatt.

• 23:54Speaker 03

  And Thomas Wyatt then just pauses in the game and reaches for something in his pocket. And it's that ruby on the chain that Henry had given Anne. And he kind of dangles it in front of Henry, you know, look what Anne gave me, something that she didn't care about clearly. Henry is furious and he storms off the bowling green, refuses to finish the match. And yeah, he ups his game from that day forward. He's like, okay, I've really got to try and get Anne because clearly I have a rival in Wyatt. So it's an intriguing little story.

• 24:28Dana Schwartz?

  Especially because to fast forward a bit, it's Wyatt's son, isn't it? Who leads the rebellion that almost costs Anne's daughter her life. The Wyatts are always causing troubles for these girls.

• 24:41Speaker 03

  Those Wyatts, yeah, they're troublesome, but it seems irresistible, but absolutely. And this is the point, you know, we were making earlier about just how tightly knit this world is. You see the same names and then the sons of that person, you're cropping up again and again, and indeed the daughters. So yeah, it's a very close knit world, the Tudor aristocracy.

• 25:05Dana Schwartz?

  Hever Castle is so vivid in this novel. Obviously you are chief historian of historic royal palaces. I've been lucky enough to visit Hever Castle, but even if I hadn't, just reading this novel, I would have felt as though I were there. But for those who haven't been lucky enough to visit, can you describe what it is? Cause I think when people hear castle, they think different things.

• 25:30Speaker 03

  Yes, they do, they do. I'm so pleased it came across vividly for you because that was absolutely my ambition for this book. In fact, I said to my editor, I want Hever to be like a character in the book, you know, more than just a backdrop. I really wanted the readers to feel immersed in this beautiful home. So Hever is sort of like a fairy tale castle. It's got turrets and a moat and a drawbridge. It's got three portcullises, but it is quite small and modest as castles go. So it's nothing on the scale of say Hampton Court or Annick Castle up in the northeast of England. It's kind of pocket sized, so that makes it feel very intimate.

• 26:15Speaker 03

  Now it has been altered over the centuries, but in recent years, the curators have lovingly restored it to how it would have looked in the time of the Belins and it is just amazing. Even down to the rush matting on the floors where you get the scent from that. And I just found it wonderfully evocative. I spent, as you can imagine, a lot of time at Hever when I was researching this novel. And visiting it at different times of the year was so important as well. It changes, the smells change, the colors, the ivy on the outside of the castle, it sort of turns red in autumn. The inspiration for the book cover, by the way. And it was just a joy. I did, somebody once told me, you know, if you're writing a novel, you should set it somewhere that you want to spend time.

• 26:58Speaker 03

  And so I thought, yep, Hever, that would be a nice place to hang out for a while. But I'm really pleased it came across so vividly because it felt like that to me. And I got to know it so well that, you know, even when I'm, I was writing, as I often was, sitting here in my study at home, I could just close my eyes and imagine it and smell the wood smoke as you pass through the courtyard and all the rest of it. So that was a joy, bringing to life the world of Hever.

• 27:27Dana Schwartz?

  As chief historian of historic royal palaces, what does that job consist of?

• 27:33Speaker 03

  Honestly, it's the best job I've ever had. And I kind of, I've got major imposter syndrome about it because I get to research the history of the palaces. But what I spend most of my time doing is communicating that history. So I do a lot of filming. There's a long running series inside the Tower of London that I'm part of. I make podcasts, I write content for our website, I do social media videos. We've got a YouTube channel now. So I spend a lot of my time talking about the history of the palaces, the people who lived in them, the events that took place. For a historian is a dream job and that's why I just, it's pinch me moment every day.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Because I've worked for the palaces for 18 years and it still feels so new, so old at the same time, bits of it. But, but it feels like there's always something new to discover. Hampton Court has got 1,360 rooms and I still haven't been in all of them. And you know, that's just one of the six palaces. So it's, it's an amazing, amazing privilege to be chief historian. I kind of wish I could go back and tell my sort of hopeful but slightly disillusioned 18 year old self while I was just applying for loads of jobs and getting knockbacks that, yeah, be all right, it's gonna be okay.

• 28:56Dana Schwartz?

  Did you learn anything new about Hever while you were researching this book?

• 29:00Speaker 03

  I did. New for me, probably not new for Hever, because the curators there, their knowledge is so extensive. But I really went into every nook and cranny of that castle. And two particularly thrilling moments for me were standing in what's called the best bed chamber, which is probably the chamber where Thomas Boleyn and his wife Elizabeth slept. But also, it was a very hierarchical castle, because the best bed chamber would then be given to whoever ranked the highest. So when Anne started to be courted by Henry VIII, she got bumped up and she got in the best bed chamber. And it was, it all had restored.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  It's so beautiful. And they think that it was in that room that Henry would, sorry, that Anne would have been reading the love letters from Henry. And so to stand there, and they've actually got some facsimiles of those letters in the room, fine to do. And then going up on the roof, which I'd never done before, and just looking out across the wield of Kent, the sort of the, it's in this valley, you can see the sort of sweeping hillsides, and just imagining Anne up there, sort of waiting and watching for yet another messenger to arrive with another letter from the king. Because it was while she was at Hever, for Christmas, actually, in 1526, that she received one of those letters. And

• 30:22Speaker 03

  for the first time, Henry talked of marriage. And that must have been huge. Imagine those conversations around the dinner table that Christmas. So I guess what? The king's just proposed. Of course, it would be a few years until she does actually marry him. But yeah, you get such a sense of their story at Hever. You can see how it kind of played out and how important Hever was to that family.

• 30:47Dana Schwartz?

  What I find fascinating in this book is not only is Hever a character, but you you make the Bollins and their family members come alive so vividly in ways that I just hadn't seen before. One example that stuck out to me is Jane Boleyn, the wife of Anne's brother, so her sister-in-law. I think in in most other media, she's usually portrayed as conniving and backstabbing. She testifies against Anne Boleyn. I don't know if that's the the proper phrase, but but your Jane is a is a more nuanced character. Can you speak a little bit about about the the girl who married into the Bollins?

• 31:26Speaker 03

  Yes. So Jane, Parker, as she was before she married Anne's brother, George. I feel very passionately about Jane, because she has been so maligned. She is always a villain in every single portrayal you see, even my beloved Wolf Hall, which I absolutely love. But she's still a nasty piece of work. There's no evidence for that. And I filmed a documentary about Jane a number of years ago. So I researched her in some detail. And actually, she is always seen, you're quite right, as the one who provides the vital evidence that that really sends her sister-in-law and her husband to their deaths. That's not backed up by the sources. And in fact, what we do have is a letter from Jane to the king pleading

• 32:08Speaker 03

  to be allowed to see her husband, George, when he's in the tower. And so pleading for his life. Really, her villainous reputation only gathered ground during the reign of Anne's daughter, Elizabeth. And it was a difficult one for Elizabeth, because she was passionate about rehabilitating her mother and proving to the world that she wasn't this wicked adulteress. But she couldn't criticize her father for putting her mother to death, because her father's Henry VIII. That's the one she owes her throne to. So instead, she looks for other scapegoats. One of them is Thomas Cranwell, and the other is Lady Jane Boleyn, or Lady Rochford, as she is then. And so that's when the villainy begins. It's, much

• 32:53Speaker 03

  as I love Elizabeth, she's kind of to blame for the blackening of Jane's character, very, very unfairly. So I was determined to present a different Jane in this book. And as you say, more nuanced. She has her own journey in this, and I hope a more sympathetic version.

• 33:11Dana Schwartz?

  I love it, because it also reminded me how much history is just hearsay that people believe and repeat over and over. In the the course of of doing this podcast over too many years to to admit, it's astonishing how often, once you go back to the actual source, you realize it doesn't say what you've been told it says.

• 33:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. In fact, earlier today, and I'm not just saying this to boast, I was in the archives at Westminster Abbey.

• 33:40Dana Schwartz?

  It is a wonderful boast. I'm very jealous. Yeah.

• 33:44Speaker 03

  It's a good boast. The reason I'm saying this is because the archivist said exactly that, what you've just said. He said, so often, there's a so-called fact, and then you look into it, and you look at the source of it, and you realize the source isn't there. And it's just one of those things that become established. And it's not backed up by any of the archives stretching back for centuries. And it happens a lot. It happens. And there are, I think there are so many myths about the Bollins in particular. We've already talked about that myth that there were these schemers, these social climbers who put ambition before everything else. You know, then, of course, you have the myth that Anne was an adulteress, and then that she was a witch, and that she had a sixth finger on one hand.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  Again, no contemporary evidence for that whatsoever.

• 34:30Dana Schwartz?

  But if she did, that would have been airtight proof that she's a witch, just on the record, of course.

• 34:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, what else could it possibly mean? You know, so, yeah, quite often, you scratch beneath the surface, and there's nothing there to back up these these myths. So even though The House of Boleyn is a novel, I hope I've been able to dispel some of those myths. And I have included quite a lengthy author's note at the end, to make it clear, you know, that these are the known facts. This is the evidence. Because personally, I read a lot of historical fiction. And I always really appreciate an author's note at the end.

• 35:08Dana Schwartz?

  One thing that I just want to ask you as a as a writer is, how is your approach to writing fiction different from when you're writing a history book?

• 35:18Speaker 03

  One big difference is that when I'm writing a history book, I research and write as I go. And I suppose I do that with my novels. But the difference is with nonfiction, I don't write it in order. So I do the research, and I might find something out that goes into chapter 17 one day, and then chapter two the next. And so it kind of comes together, but not necessarily in the right order, because it's led by the research. And then it does take shape. By the way, I would highly recommend to any of your listeners, this approach of research and write. Because for my first couple of books, I did, I just spent months and months doing all the research. And then I then I had the writing to do. And it's, it's not as efficient. And I don't think it produces such a good book, in a

• 36:02Speaker 03

  way, because you're constantly editing yourself if you write from the beginning. Novel, I'm writing from day one, but I write it sequentially. I start at the beginning, I work my way through. Because with a novel, I do have a kind of skeleton of what it's going to be and the structure. But each chapter, I don't know where it's going to go. So I start it. And as I'm writing, ideas occur to me. And I think, oh, yeah, that could be a nice little subplot. It's quite nice for the creative process to just leave lots of flexibility to develop characters and storylines. But I do, for the sake of my sanity, I have to start at the beginning and just work all the way through. I know Hilary, Hilary Mantel, for example,

• 36:44Speaker 03

  she was definitely not like that. She was a big fan of just writing up random scenes, and then at the end, knitting them all together. But but, yeah. And who am I to criticize Hilary Mantel at all? It worked for her.

• 36:58Dana Schwartz?

  Yes, absolutely. But no, that does seem like, unless you're Hilary Mantel, I think that would drive most of us a little insane.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:06Dana Schwartz?

  You do mention inventing new characters. And before I let you go, one of my favorite characters that you invented was a character called Esther.

• 37:16Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 37:17Dana Schwartz?

  I just loved her. I believe she was not. There was no historical evidence for her.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  No.

• 37:23Dana Schwartz?

  Can you speak a little bit about the decision to invent that character and and how she, what role she played in the novel?

• 37:30Speaker 03

  I'm so pleased you liked Esther, because she was my favorite. So the reason I made Esther up is because there's hardly any evidence surviving for the household that served the Bollins at Hever. So there's only one name of a servant that survived, and that's Robert Cranwell, Thomas's steward, who I made a pretty horrible villain in this novel. But Esther is the ladies maid to to Anne. And what I wanted with this novel, because the action never leaves Hever, I needed to give the reader lots of other storylines. So even if Anne is away at court, there's still lots going on. And Esther's story,

• 38:10Speaker 03

  as you will know, is quite dramatic. It has a lot of tragedy, but it has hope as well. And I really wanted to convey this warm character, but also have have her as a confidante to Anne. And that was entirely authentic. Servants in later centuries become much more deferential. They have to be seen and not heard by their masters. But in the Tudor period, they're more like companions. And so, you know, people like Anne would have been sharing her innermost thoughts and fears and secrets with her servant, who I've made Esther. And so it enabled me to get into Anne's head again, rather than just have her constantly thinking to

• 38:51Speaker 03

  herself. She can be expressing what she feels to her trusted servant, her beloved servant, Esther. So I really enjoyed drawing that that particular character.

• 39:01Dana Schwartz?

  And as you allude to, it gives the reader this delightful upstairs, downstairs, Downton Abbey itch to scratch that I I just loved.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  I'm pleased you said it, because Downton Abbey was my inspiration with this. I'm a big fan. And I just thought, you get so involved in the servants' storylines as well. And so that's what I wanted to achieve with The House of Boleyn.

• 39:22Dana Schwartz?

  It was absolutely wonderful. You're just such a brilliant writer of of history books. Your books truly have been invaluable in the research as I'm writing episodes of this podcast. It's so wonderful to speak to you. I'm such a fan of your fiction as well. The House of Boleyn is out in the US on August 4. If you're a Tudor lover like me, you will absolutely love this book. Tracy Borman, thank you so much for joining us.

• 39:49Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute joy.

• 40:00Dana Schwartz?

  Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz. Writers for Noble Blood are Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Paul Jaffe, Natasha Lasky, and me, Dana Schwartz. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Gomes Griffin with supervising producer Reema Ilkayali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 40:41Dana Schwartz?

  If you know Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, you know he's one of the most delightful people on television. He's also a serious history nerd. He has a new fun history podcast called What the Fact, co-hosted with Carter Roy from Conspiracy Theories and Murder: True Crime Stories. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from across history and tell you the story behind them. Carter sets the scene, and Connor brings the deep cuts, the hilarious tangents, and his infectious love of history. From the worst years to be alive, to the women so powerful they started wars, Connor

• 41:25Dana Schwartz?

  and Carter will take you all over the timeline. Every episode will leave you in a better mood and a little smarter. The wildest stuff is real, and the real stuff is way wilder than you think. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on your favorite podcast app, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 41:49Speaker 07

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• 42:26Speaker 01

  What do you do when things get tough? You don't give up. You stand your ground. If you've been diagnosed with metastatic prostate cancer and have tried hormone therapy, ask your doctor about Pluvicto. Lutetium Lu177 Vipetide Tetraxitan. Pluvicto is not chemotherapy. It's a different treatment that targets PSMA-positive cells. Pluvicto can be used before chemotherapy for some people. Pluvicto is a prescription treatment used to treat adults with prostate-specific membrane antigen-positive metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer, or PSMA-positive MCRPC, who have already been treated with hormone therapy and are considered appropriate to delay chemotherapy. Pluvicto involves contact with radioactivity, which may increase the risk for cancer and cause fetal harm. Drink plenty

• 43:09Speaker 01

  of fluids, urinate often, use contraception, and talk to your doctor about ways to reduce the risk of exposing others to radiation during and after treatment. Pluvicto can cause low levels of blood cell counts, kidney problems, and infertility. Tell your doctor if you have weakness, pale skin, shortness of breath, bleeding or bruising more easily, an infection or changes in urination. Side effects include decreased blood cell counts, tiredness, dry mouth, nausea, appetite loss, joint or back pain, and constipation. Ask your doctor about Pluvicto, because every day without cancer progression is a victory. Visit pluvicto.com to learn more.

• 43:41Dana Schwartz?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.