Ep. 785: Another Attack On Our Public Lands

Steven Rinella https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella/?hl=en talks with Jeremy Romero of the National Wildlife Federation https://www.nwf.org/ about yet another attack on our public lands by Sen. Mike Lee's latest Border Lands Conservation Act. Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 0:34Steven Rinella?

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• 1:15Steven Rinella?

  you to tailor the climber based on your preferred hunting method. So you can choose between two climbing modes and two hunting modes. So I like having something that's got this level of versatility. Get 20% off all tree stands by using the code MEATEATER at summitstands.com. That's a phenomenal deal. That's summitstands.com. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we have a special emergency swap. This is dedicated to all the listeners out there who say we should just stay out of politics. Joined today by my friend Jeremy Romero, who's a hunter-conservationist and serves with the National Wildlife Federation.

• 1:53Steven Rinella?

  And Jeremy is here to talk about kind of what I view to be like, one of the most, I'm trying to choose my words carefully here.

• 2:05Steven Rinella?

  Cynical, creative, and kind of like, um, a little bit like of an exploitive, and I'll explain why I'm using these words. A cynical, exploitive, public lands bill that has emerged without a lot of fanfare, and without a lot of reporting. If you, if you follow the news, you've been, you've seen that we, we've suffered another, a number of conservation setbacks, um, coming out of the, the Trump administration. Where, uh, undoing the roadless rule, okay? That's going on.

• 2:46Steven Rinella?

  Uh, we had put, we'd put the Ambler Road, building a big industrial corridor into Alaska's Brooks Range, that had again temporarily put to bed. Ambler Road is back on the table in order to allow a foreign mining company to drill and export a bunch of mineral wealth out of Alaska and create a 250 mile industrial corridor going into one of our last vestiges of wilderness. Uh, we have another phenomenal piece of wilderness called the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. We learned a couple of days ago that they're, they're, they're looking to open up and reissue drilling leases in Anwar. There was a lot of, uh, resource management plans, Bureau of Land Management Resource

• 3:28Steven Rinella?

  Management Plans, that just got undone. So, Montana, Alaska, North Dakota. So, these were management plans that many stakeholders came together, they served a lot of interests of hunters and anglers, um, that got thrown out the window. Okay? The aim for everything we're talking about, what we're going to talk about in a minute, the aim here is to be able to, um, a, a push by the, uh, administration to increase resource extraction and industrialization.

• 4:01Steven Rinella?

  If you remember back before a lot of this stuff started brewing, a lot of this stuff was whispers um last June, but last June, we saw perhaps one of the most direct assaults on public lands. And that was uh Utah Senator Mike Lee's push to sell off a few million acres of public lands. Um, that got enormous pushback. Uh, I would say like enormous bipartisan pushback. Um, we had seen that happen again. What year was it? The Chaffetz one, Jeremy? I'm sorry. Do you remember what year Jason Chaffetz proposal, which was remarkably similar? Tw- 2017?

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Sounds right.

• 4:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, 2017. I think it was right around 2017. Um, there was another proposal to sell millions of acres of public land. That was met with enormous bipartisan pushback. The media uh seemed to be, the, the national media seemed to be expro- surprised by the fact that, that hunters coalesced around pushback on that issue. Um, that was by a, a, a Utah lawmaker named Jason Chaffetz. Uh, Senator Mike Lee, just in, in June 2025,

• 5:20Steven Rinella?

  brought out a new plan to sell off millions of acres. It had different sort of code words. You know, I, I find that these plans or a lot of this legislation, and we'll get into this in greater detail with Jeremy. A lot of the anti-public lands legislation, anti-wilderness area legislation will carry like a, a it'll carry fashionable buzzwords. Okay? So one of Mike Lee's early versions of the sell-off was like, was couched in this language around affordable housing. But then when you look at the details of the bill, it didn't really do much to address affordable housing. Um, before it was in 2017, it was like, um.

• 6:05Steven Rinella?

  Extra or excess public lands that we have excess public lands. We're going to get rid of some of them. Um, the, the bill we're going to talk about now uses another currently fashionable buzzword in order to accomplish something that really doesn't do much to serve the buzzword that it's being marketed under. But going back to June, uh, this big sell off push was pulled. It was defeated. Uh, when that happened, a lot of people I know in the conservation space were like, we're, we're cautious about declaring it a victory. They're like, that was a, we won a battle. We didn't win the war. This will come back up very quickly.

• 6:45Steven Rinella?

  One might think that, um, Senator Lee, like it was kind of a bruising on that. Uh, one, one might have thought he might retreat from the, the idea altogether of kind of weakening protections. Um, but, but, but he hasn't, he, he's, he's, he has a, um, he, he's committed to the idea of opening up, of weakening public lands protections, opening up undeveloped lands to development. That just, that's where he is. That's his commitment. Uh, so we're looking at a new bill here that was introduced on October 2nd. And this is the one I was

• 7:28Steven Rinella?

  saying that just hasn't like, for whatever reason, hasn't received a bunch of news. And I think it's because it's entering an area that's quite clouded with all these other things that I laid out, the role this rule, uh, Amblin Road, Anwar, resource management plans. So this one's kind of flown a little bit under the radar. And I've asked Jeremy Romero to come on. He was the one that told me about it. Um, I asked him to come on and explain to me and explain to our listeners what the Borderlands Conservation Act.

• 8:02Steven Rinella?

  is all about and it ain't about conservation um so Jeremy can you can you talk people through

• 8:12Steven Rinella?

  what the Borderlands Conservation Act is like what is it at face value? And what is it actually about and then we'll get into some details?

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, you bet Steve. Thanks for for having me on to talk about this issue. You know, I think you you said it brilliantly. It's a it's an attack on public lands. You know, Senator Lee, I I think uh really took a stab at at undermining public lands when he went through the reconciliation process and you know, the the large effort to sell off public lands. And essentially, this is this is no different. So um in October, early October, Senator Lee introduced Borderlands Conservation Act with, you know, in a nutshell, that bill is is focused on border security. Again, you you said and use the phrase of kind of these these sexy terms, right? These terms that are popular

• 9:03Speaker 00

  in society today and and border security is one of those. And this bill is aimed at at just that increasing border security along the northern and southern of borders in the United States. Um, kind of creating these hundred mile buffer zones in the northern and southern borders. And basically creates and gives Department of Homeland Security the authority to manage these roads in an effort to strengthen border security. And it does it by a number of different measures that we'll talk about this in this conversation.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Really, those measures, in my opinion, undermine the importance of public lands and the protections afforded to public lands like things like the nineteen sixty nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act.

• 9:46Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, which which of these points should we jump into first here?

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's just talk about this hundred mile buffer and kind of the rationale behind, you know, inventorying these illegal roads and trails.

• 9:59Steven Rinella?

  So yeah, I want to hit that because when we talk about the 100 mile buffer, um, this, this will impact, you have to appreciate like what we're talking about. So I'm going to tell people something obvious here. If we're talking about, if you look at a map of the United States and then imagine coming in from 100 miles on all of our borders, north and south and Alaska. Okay. You're, you're taking in wilderness areas in Washington, you're taking in wilderness areas in Idaho, you're taking wilderness areas in Montana. Um, jumping eastward from there where this, this grabs hold of all of the boundary waters

• 10:43Steven Rinella?

  area. Um, it would come into areas in Maine, national parks, wilderness areas in California, wilderness areas in Arizona, wilderness areas in New Mexico, Big Bend National Park in Texas, Tongass Wilderness Area in Alaska, Wrangell St. Elias Park and Preserve in Alaska. So this is a, I mean, this, you can one hand go like, oh, it's a hundred mile buffer, but you need to appreciate what we're talking about when we talk about a 100 mile buffer coming in from our borders. Like it's, it's grabbing on to huge swaths of land.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's exactly right. And I'll, I'll note that the one, you know, the one type or the types of land jurisdictions that this bill is not specific to are tribal lands, state lands and private lands. Other than that, it's taken, you know, the, the stroke of a paintbrush within that 100 mile buffer and any land that's administered by the federal government under DOI and USDA is subject to these measures in this bill. So as you mentioned, everything, everything administered by DOI, by USDA, all those national parks, all those, uh, you know, Forest Service units, all those BLM field offices, wilderness study areas,

• 12:00Speaker 00

  wilderness, like they are all subject to the measures in this bill, all within that 100 mile buffer. And those are, there's a couple of other key points when we get to the wilderness portion of this that I'll also, I'll make, I'll make sure to distinguish, but. You know, basically, within this hundred mile buffer on the northern and southern boundaries, Department of Homeland Security is going to work in coordination with DOI and USDA to inventory what they would consider illegal roads and trails that have been that have been created by illegal border crossings. And that's important because, one, how do we determine if, in fact, a road or a trail is created by illegal border crossing? And if these agencies, if these land management agencies determine that, in fact,

• 12:45Speaker 00

  these roads were created by illegal border crossing, then it's providing DHAS, Department of Homeland Security, the authority to then create and manage these roads as navigable roads for the sake of border security. So installing infrastructure, technology that can monitor border security and illegal border crossings and and prevent those from happening in the future. And so it really opens up this this can of worms of, you know, deciding whether or not these roads actually are illegal and whether or not these trails are illegal, and if so, be able to be managed. And it doesn't really consider the impacts to developing these roads.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  You know, currently, a lot of these agencies go through travel management plans where they inventory the road use system and determine whether or not these roads are navigable or in navigable and create this kind of access plan, this map that you, that I, that others can then access public lands. And they do a pretty meticulous job of being able to lay out this footprint of what's considered navigable, right? You want to you want to protect wildlife, you want to, you know, protect wildlife habitat. There's cultural resource protection when it comes to managing these roads. And so allowing for this kind of unregulated development of of roads really,

• 14:12Speaker 00

  I think, puts a lot of important things in the crosshairs along this buffer. And and like you hinted to, I mean, a hundred mile buffer, to me, is is outrageous, right? I mean, we're talking from the southern the southern border to almost Tucson, Arizona, right? It encapsulates a lot of country that they are claiming to be important for border security. And in my perspective, um, I think it's a little outrageous to think that a hundred mile buffer and all the different types of land jurisdictions and land management, uh, land jurisdictions within that hundred mile buffer are really going to lend to increasing border security.

• 14:52Steven Rinella?

  So I I struggle a little bit just to understand even the logic there, that it be that if you were to determine, if someone were to determine that a road, that an illegal road, say on BLM land, that an illegal road on BLM land, or like an unregistered road on BLM land, or an illegal trail on BLM land, that they determined to have been utilized by illegal immigrants, or for my, for, for illegal immigration of some part, that that would then give you justification to go in and make it into a road.

• 15:31Steven Rinella?

  On a wilderness area.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. In wilderness and non-wilderness, it's, it's mind boggling to me to, to think about how these, how, how the mandates in this bill and, and those land management agencies, how they will come to the conclusion saying that these trails and these roads were created by illegal border crossing. You know, how, how do you determine that, right? Like that's, I, I think that's kind of the, the big question I have in my mind is, you know, when it comes to a trail, for instance, I mean, you and I hunt a lot. We're, we're in places where, you know, uh, livestock, whether that's a, you know, a grazing allotment or what have you, are in a lot of areas we, we tend to occupy. You know, if cattle are utilizing a trail that they've created and, you know,

• 16:18Speaker 00

  let's just say there's a, a boot track on there, does that mean that that road was used and created by illegals? And now it gets to be, uh, managed by Department of Homeland Security in a, in a fashion that allows them to access, you know, these, these areas. Um, if a road was created by illegal OHV use, or it was once determined to be navigable and has since been deemed in navigable, so is no longer accessible to the public. How do you determine that that road was, road was created by, by illegal border crossing? And then be able to reopen that road, right? How, the question I have next, next to what I just pointed out is, then how do you enforce?

• 16:59Speaker 00

  These roads to be used for the intent in which the bill describes and not for all this extracurricular activity like illegal OHV use. Um, I think there's, I think there's a bigger question to be had, which is who's gonna, who's gonna front the cost for developing these roads? I think right now, when you look at the deferred maintenance to agencies like, uh, Forest Service and BLM, there's hundreds of thousands of miles of roads that are deteriorating because these agencies don't have the resources to manage the roads that they have considered and deemed to be navigable through these travel management plans. And we're asking, we're asking these agencies to

• 17:39Speaker 00

  create more roads and take away from roads that they've already deemed to be accessible and the management and the resources, you know, that they need to manage those roads. Um, there, there's a lot to unpack there. And so I, I think there's a lot of questions and I think the bill doesn't do a great job of, of defining how these actions are going to be conducted. Um, and those are part of the, part of the many problems I have with the bill.

• 18:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, let, let, in a minute, let's get into a little bit of the, how these bills come up where they leave so many details up to one's imagination. And that in some ways was attributable to the sinking of the sell-off plan, where the sell-off plan went through a, a handful of versions that had these like permutations. And then the end, someone realized, and it was pointed out, and this was acknowledged by the office that put it forward. It was pointed out, even though this was put together as this idea of addressing affordable housing, and the way the bill was written,

• 18:43Steven Rinella?

  you couldn't have prevented foreign governments from buying the land.

• 18:49Steven Rinella?

  Right? So you, you wind up in this thing like you're, you're saying it's one thing, but then you're not clarifying with enough level of detail about how it would be determined. I would be able to take it a little more seriously. If someone was talking about a three mile buffer, a five mile buffer, a 10 mile buffer, I'd be able to look at it and be like, yeah, I'm willing to at least take this at face value. But when you've gotten a hundred miles

• 19:15Steven Rinella?

  north of the border with Mexico, or a hundred miles south of, of the border in Idaho.

• 19:25Steven Rinella?

  Like I, at that point, I don't think we're talking about immigration anymore. And so it opens up this question of like, what is it really about? If it was a five mile thing, I'd be like, okay, this is about immigration. Hundred miles is about something entirely different and we'll get to that in a minute, but let's get into a couple of these components. Um, one of the ways that they're trying to sell this, uh, again, couching it in language that anyone would agree with. This is like a tactic, right? You say like, oh, border security. Well, who wouldn't want border security, right? Must be a good idea. Here they're like, hey, this will help with search and rescue. Um, explain that component.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and it's important to note that the search and rescue piece is basically also tied to this amending the wilderness act.

• 20:12Steven Rinella?

  Okay. So I'm out of order then let's get into amending the wilderness act.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  You bet. So a big component of this bill is to amend the nineteen sixty, nineteen sixty four, nineteen sixty four, excuse me, wilderness preservation act. To allow for the use of developing roads, using motorized mechanized travel. Um, kind of under the auspice of search and rescue and border security. So basically allowing the things that the wilderness act prevents for the sake of border security. What's, what's important to note is that when it comes to search and rescue in wilderness areas. A lot of the land use management agencies and local law enforcement, local search and rescue already have plans in place.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  To one, prevent, um, more than is intended to when it comes to, uh, you know, occupying and, and, and being in wilderness areas to conduct those, those search and rescue operations. So they can already go in and use motorized mechanized travel if it's deemed that they absolutely have to for the sake of human life. They have these plans in place and they can go in there and they can fly a helicopter. They can take a, uh, you know, like a gurney that's, that's got a wheel on it. They can travel in on potentially on four wheelers or use their motorized types of transportation in certain circumstances.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  These plans are already. Coordinated and developed with those land use management agencies, local law enforcement, search and rescue. And so what this is trying to do is, you know, amend the Wilderness Preservation Act to create those roads to codify the use of motorized mechanized operation in Wilderness Act, which to me is a really slippery slope. And earlier you mentioned like how these bills are written and how kind of things, let's just say fly under the radar, may not be explicitly defined. This is an important piece because what this, what this section of the bill does not clarify

• 22:28Speaker 00

  is when it talks about amending the wilderness to create roads, motorized use with, you know, for the sake of border security. It does not explicitly mention that it's wilderness areas within the 100 mile buffer, right? It's just, it's just amending the Wilderness Preservation Act. So technically it applies to all wilderness areas, you know, aside from those within that 100 mile buffer. So in my mind, that means if you can justify that building roads in wilderness areas is for the sake of border security, it can be, it can be any wilderness in our country.

• 23:09Steven Rinella?

  Or building roads is helpful for search and rescue, apparently.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 23:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 23:48Steven Rinella?

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• 24:59Steven Rinella?

  Okay, we got into some of the details here. What is your take? Earlier I used like a term cynical and I'm a little, I'm not totally happy with word choice on that. But what you see is again and again, you see these things that they're, they're, they're trying to couch it as one thing, but what they're talking about is something else. Okay, so here it's taking this idea of border security, this idea of search and rescue. And, and, and low and behold, what does it really come down to? It comes down to like weakening protections on wilderness areas and making it easier to develop and do road building.

• 25:41Steven Rinella?

  Do you like, in your view and your analysis of this, do you, do you feel that that's fair? Like, do you feel that there really is, I hate to use it, but like, is there like a sort of conspiracy of sorts? Of trying to use whatever tools are applicable, whatever national crises we have, affordable housing, border security, whatever it is to try to just do anything to weaken protections on wilderness areas and weaken protections on public lands? And if that's true, like what is the end game? Like, how does that ultimately get them what they want?

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I, I think, you know,

• 26:23Speaker 00

  from like a conspiracy perspective, i- it's hard not to think that there's these ulterior motives when it comes to these types of, of bills and legislation.

• 26:35Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  I mean, we've seen ti- and, and time, you know, time and time again, where uh, individuals like Senator Lee or others just don't have the same perspective of public lands that you and I or others do. And therefore, I think their perspective of public lands is a much more, you know, let's just call it an asset-driven mindset.

• 26:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  Where they look at public lands and they see uh, different types of um, investments that they can return on these assets, right? Different types of ways that these lands can be more profitable than they already are than just creating open spaces where we can recreate, where we can hunt, where we can fish. And in their minds, I don't believe that this is something that they, they enjoy seeing and how public lands are used, are utilized. And, you know, for that reason, I think we've seen these assaults on public lands through different, different efforts, the reconciliation process that you, that you mentioned earlier. And so it's hard for me to think that

• 27:38Speaker 00

  these bills, when I see them, are just focused on what the title of the bill is, is written as, right? I, I have, I, I can't help but think that there's, that there's these, these details, that there's these underlying efforts within, within the, these bills that are aimed at attacking and undermining public lands from multiple perspectives.

• 28:01Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Getting more access, therefore you can potentially have none, you know, um, you can have more resource extraction or irresponsible use of public lands. Um, I think it's a slippery slope and I think they're, they're recognizing that. They have to be a little bit craftier, a little bit more creative in how they attack public lands. And so, you know, you said it, you said it spot on, like using terms like affordable housing, border security, I think terms that maybe hit, hit near and dear to a lot of Americans, you know, lives and, and homes. Like I, I do think by trying to create these kind of false narratives, by trying to get people on board for these ideas that

• 28:44Speaker 00

  really aren't the root of, of what is intended by these pieces of legislation. Um, I can't help, I can't help but, but think there's, there's more to it than what, than what we're reading.

• 28:54Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I don't want to use too hyperbolic of, of, of language here. Like, like, I just want to, you know, acknowledge, these things are coming from, you know, patriotic people who no doubt love their families and love their communities. It's just, we're like ideologically opposed on an issue. My view is that undeveloped landscapes are of extreme value and will become more and more valuable over time. And that preserving them, conserving them comes at no cost to us. They're still there. They will still be there later on. Once a

• 29:35Steven Rinella?

  as the world gets developed, as the nation gets developed, as our last wildernesses get developed, we'll burn through an asset and will later regret what we did. And I think that there are some activities, hunting, fishing, hiking, those are things that I'm interested in. There are some activities that can go on right now without having adverse impact on these great American assets. So I don't want to, when I use the word conspiracy, I don't want to act like, like someone's objective in putting this forward, that the objective is to be, um, like evil or something. It's just like a different thing. Some people look at undeveloped landscape and they see wasted opportunity. I look at undeveloped

• 30:17Steven Rinella?

  landscape and I see an incredible asset in the nation's bank that can bring enjoyment and mental health and physical health to all Americans while we hold it.

• 30:32Steven Rinella?

  And it might be, and I know like without a doubt to me will be of far more value to future generations than it is to us now and in our in our undeveloped landscapes are at their most valuable state as they sit. Right? It's like it's an asset. So yeah, I don't want to put this in terms of of um

• 30:53Steven Rinella?

  good versus evil. It's like it's like it's an ideological battle with with real with real results like like real things are pivoting on this. Okay. Um.

• 31:06Steven Rinella?

  What now and then you see where people put forward pieces of legislation that you know aren't to be taken seriously. Um, like people do it. There's there's a performative quality to some legislation. When there was talk of, uh, give you an example, when when some guy put forth legislation that would have put Trump on Mount Rushmore. It was performative. Right? Um, for a lot of people, it was good for a laugh. It sparked a lot of conversation like, is there really room on Mount Rushmore? What is Mount Rushmore made of? Where would you put it? What's the history of Mount Rushmore? But in the end, it was like a performative

• 31:47Steven Rinella?

  gesture. It was never something that was meant to be advanced and and signed into law. Right? Is this? Is this like making a statement? Is it trying to like advance an idea that future generations might pick up on? Like, like, what is this? Is this serious?

• 32:09Speaker 00

  I I think it can very well be serious, and I I do think it's somewhat performative. I I think it's, you know, Senator Lee and other co-sponsors, you know, dipping their their toe in in the water to do a temperature check and see how a bill like this is perceived and whether or not it's going to get the support and the attention to to gain some traction and and potentially move forward. Um, I hope it's it's kind of all smoke, no fire. Um, for a lot of the reasons that we've been talking about, you know, it's it's interesting when you look at this bill to see who the co-sponsors are.

• 32:45Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  And I say that because there's only one co-sponsor that's occupying a state that is relative to the language in this bill, and that's Senator Cruz out of Texas. You don't see other Republican or Democratic senators.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Along these these border states that are cosponsoring this bill.

• 33:04Steven Rinella?

  Well, that that's funny you mention that because I mean Utah sits well outside of the hundred. Uh Senator Lee's state of Utah sits well outside the buffer. Um, I see a representative from Wyoming sits outside of the buffer, but you're right. Senator Ted Cruz of Texas is uh has portions of his state in the buffer zone.

• 33:26Steven Rinella?

  In the very generous buffer zone.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  That's right, and you don't see individuals like Senator Danes, Senator Sheehy, Senator Rish. Um, like, oh, you know, you know, those senators on the northern part of the of the border. Um, those people who you would who you would think if this was a uh an issue that was really important. You would think that the the states that are going to be impacted by this legislation would have more of a of a perspective on the bill. Maybe that's a maybe that's a sign, right? Like, maybe that's a sign that this this bill really is just kind of an an attention seeker and not going to get the traction that or the seriousness that people are going to to think when they read it.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  Um, and for that reason, like, maybe that's why those individuals don't, you know, aren't sponsoring the bill. And, you know, obviously, that's me just being, you know, rather presumptuous. But I think when I when I see the lack of those cosponsors, I just have to ask those questions.

• 34:28Steven Rinella?

  Got it. And and what do you think will happen? Like, what's the next step for a piece of legislation like this? Like, remember that remember that cartoon you were little kid? I'm just a bill on Capitol Hill? Like, like, what uh like, what's what's next?

• 34:40Speaker 00

  Well, it was it was referred to the Committee of Energy and Natural Resources.

• 34:45Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  So amongst all the craziness that's happening in in DC right now, um, this bill has to be put on the calendar by by E and R, by Senate E and R. And then, once it's there, they have to to listen to the bill and they have to vote on it to pass it out of committee.

• 35:01Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  And then there it goes on its own kind of trajectory to potentially being voted on on the Senate floor. Has to have a House companion. Um, you know, it still has a long route before it's even, I would say, remotely considered serious. But the fact that it was introduced is is serious enough for me to to want to talk to you about.

• 35:22Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, and this will come up under an early. Um, an early person that'll get a look at this is Senator Heinrich from New Mexico, who has, you know, who, um, represents landscape within this buffer. Um, he's a big, oh, you know, like a very informed, very dedicated defender of public lands. Like, what's his take on this gonna be?

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Well, I imagine Senator Heinrich, that, as you mentioned, is a champion for conservation, champion for, for public lands, somebody who, you know, gets out and hunts and fish, fishes on our public lands. I think when he sees a bill like this, he's gonna ask a lot of questions, um, and he's gonna pick it apart, kinda as we've been picking it apart on this conversation. I, I don't think a bill like this is gonna, actually, I know a bill like this is not going to land well with, with Senator Heinrich. I think he, he will do a, a brilliant job of asking those important underlying questions of the intention and rationale of this bill. And, uh, you know, with that being said, I hope the result is, is the bill doesn't move out of committee and is essentially dead upon arrival.

• 36:30Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. But it is, man, it's like a very interesting, and, and like I said, you, I didn't know about it. You know, we were together right around this time when this came out. You're the one that explained it to me, and I thought that regardless of where it lands, and it's, it's very early to say, it's a very, it's an interesting civics lesson, and it's an interesting look into how people are, and this is the point I keep making, uh, interesting look at how people could have a historic axe to grind, like a career-long set of goals. In this case, if your career-long set of goals is to reduce protections on

• 37:10Steven Rinella?

  public lands and open up development and industrialization of wildlands, that's like the career-long goal. The way in which you can look for opportunities in the national dialogue to be like, oh, that's how I'm gonna talk about my perennial issue. And then the conversation changes, and there's like a lot of talk about affordable housing, let's say. That's how I'm gonna talk about my perennial issue. And then there's a lot of talk about illegal immigration. That's how I'm gonna talk about my perennial issue. And it brings to mind this analogy of that the, the bottle of the wine.

• 37:51Steven Rinella?

  Stays the same, but you continue to apply a new label onto that wine. Um, and so it's just a, it's a, it's a fascinating glimpse into the thinking here. Um, I hope listeners like give, like, start paying more attention to that in the years that are coming as we continue to have these conversations. Um, and thank you, Jeremy, to come on and explain in this and telling me about it. Again, I think it's, um, like I said, if nothing else, it's a great civics lesson for people.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, uh, I really appreciate you letting me come on and talk about the bill. Um, you know, any attack on public land is important to me to get out there and, and, and talk about and advocate for public lands and the right to hunt and fish and protecting these areas for future generations. So we're going to keep, you know, our eye on this bill. We going, we're going to do our due diligence to, to make sure a bill like this doesn't, uh, doesn't have a future and, you know, in the future, you know, keeping, keeping a, uh, you know, keeping a close eye on, on legislation that comes out and looking at how they are somewhat, uh, you know, disguised in different ways. And I, I recommend people do their, their due diligence and look at, look at bills,

• 39:05Speaker 00

  look at legislation, not just for what the title of the legislation is, but what the actual action items in legislation are. Um, and I encourage you to be, be active, reach out to your, you know, your congressional members and, you know, be, be an engaged member of, of society. I think as the reconciliation process and the public land sal off kind of played out, we saw a tremendous amount of, of support from everybody on both sides of the aisle. You know, whether you, uh, whether you hunt and fished or didn't like it. Um, we all came together and, and pushed back on the public land sal off. And it was an extraordinary thing to see. And I just hope that we can continue to have those shared visions when it comes to pieces of legislation like this.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  So Steve, again, I think, I thank you for, for letting me come on and, and talk about this bill. And we'll just keep tracking, keep tracking it.

• 39:57Steven Rinella?

  Okay. Uh, again, you're hearing from Jeremy Romero from the National Wildlife Federation, a very avid, um, hunter angler out of New Mexico. Thank you. Thanks again, Jeremy. Thanks.

• 40:40Steven Rinella?

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