Is Using ChatGPT Hurting My Relationship?

She comes to Esther with a question that feels distinctly of this moment: when does a tool become a transgression? After leaving a long, stable marriage, she finds herself in a new relationship marked by intense highs and low lows. She turns to AI, using it as a real-time coach to navigate arguments and break painful communication loops. She shows up differently, and the relationship begins to shift. But as the dust settles, a new question emerges. What does it mean to rely on something your partner doesn’t know about, and wouldn’t agree with? Is her use of ChatGPT a tool or a transgression? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I've been in a relationship for about nine months that is pretty emotionally intense. My partner is in recovery and can be very reactive and our conflicts escalate quickly. When they began, I found myself either over explaining or getting pulled into circular arguments. I'd come out of a long, stable marriage where conflict rarely escalated, and this is my first relationship after that. So this dynamic felt disorienting and I felt totally out of my depth. So I started using AI. Sometimes I'd consult with it to help me understand what was happening and sometimes I'd even use it in real time during conflict to help me regulate my responses. It kept me grounded and it also helped me do my part to influence our interactions toward peace. It helped so much.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  I became less reactive, more clear-headed during conflicts, and I stopped participating in the loops. At this point, I'm no longer using it in real time and I rarely even consulted about us because I've integrated most of the tools it taught me. But I don't fully know how to understand what happened because it's so novel. I mean, I did grow into somebody who could hold this relationship more effectively, but did I stabilize something that might not have actually held together on its own? Though he does not know I was using AI in this way, which is, for a fairly open person like me, questionable in its impact on intimacy. It did feel like private turbocharged self-regulation, which was incredibly calming, but my subjective experience had an objective prop.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  It definitely shaped our dynamic, especially in conflict, where I'd started using AI and suddenly break the loop before I knew how to do it on my own. So I'm curious where the line is between personal support and something that affects the integrity of a relationship and where intimacy comes into play. Thanks.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  When is the end of the day and you're settled into the couch looking for your evening watch? You're not looking for Homework the Movie. You're looking for comfort, excitement, or something in between. Whether you're craving something familiar or in the mood to discover something new, Amazon Prime has what you need from screen to doorstep. Because it's not just about genres or endless content. It's about finding the thing that matches how you're feeling, whatever the mood. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 2:54Esther Perel?

  So is there anything that you would like to add?

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Well, I think the biggest thing I'm grappling with is the ethical question, actually, of the one-sided use and the secret use. And whether that's... I mean, it's a brave new world, right? And AI doesn't have the kind of standards and practices that a therapist has, you know, with confidentiality and such. So I feel like in hindsight that I might have been breaking trust with him, because literally, Esther, I would copy paste our conversations from, you know, our chat into AI because I wanted to get it right. I didn't want to just, you know, describe my version of it. And then it would spit out a suggestion of what to say.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  And at first, it was completely different than what I expected to have to say because it's just, you know, I was participating in the loops like I described. And I'm really going to focus on myself in this conversation and my complicity in the loops. And that's where it really came in handy. But yeah, so what it was describing was different because I just, I hadn't, I'd never cultivated those tools. The relationship I came from was with a man with whom I shared a very similar background. And my new partner and I have completely different backgrounds. So I'm just, I'm needing, I'm just needing more, you know, more help. Um. So but you know, but he's totally against A I. He's not team A I at all. So I just, I don't, not really sure where the line is there.

• 4:26Esther Perel?

  That's an important, that's an important statement, right?

• 4:30Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 4:30Esther Perel?

  If he was team A I, you wouldn't be asking me, should I share with him or not?

• 4:35Speaker 00

  I'm actually, I'm not sure if I'm asking, should I share with him or not? I don't plan to share this with him, but I am interested in in the ethics behind it.

• 4:46Esther Perel?

  Walk me back for a moment.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 4:49Esther Perel?

  How did you start using A I? What made you think A I could help you in that moment?

• 4:56Esther Perel?

  Give me an example of one of those copy paste. What do you mean you copy paste? You wrote it all down or you recorded your fights?

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Oh, well, I should actually clarify that our our relationship is mostly long distance.

• 5:08Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  So a lot of our arguments take place over text.

• 5:12Esther Perel?

  Okay, so the source material landed itself.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Completely.

• 5:17Esther Perel?

  What else do I need to know about?

• 5:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm so sorry about that.

• 5:20Esther Perel?

  No, totally. I, there are questions about your relationship. There are questions about what A I represents for you here and what it represents to the relationship. So there are three different touch points. Just to start, there'll be others potentially that may emerge as we speak, but have you had a relationship in using A I for other situations and this just became one more? Was this a whole new ignition for you? How did it start?

• 5:53Speaker 00

  The first time I ever used A I, it was actually for work. I had to come up with a contract for a client and I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to draft a contract and this is gonna take forever and I only have a few minutes. And I had A I, I put all the, you know, the terms into A I and it drafted me this gorgeous contract. And I was like, oh, wow.

• 6:11Esther Perel?

  What do you use?

• 6:12Speaker 00

  Uh, Chat G P T.

• 6:14Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  So in in conversations with my therapist about this relationship, she had recommended a couple of books to me. Stop Walking on Egg shows and It's Not You. And then I thought to myself. There's this whole world of relationship books that I haven't really dug into. And I have this tool here that can access all of them and synthesize the information in such a way in real time that might be really useful for my situation. And I was in a place where our dynamic had gotten so volatile. And I was at a loss as to what was mine to own and what I needed to leave with him to own. And so I I asked the tool.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  And, you know, I actually said, you know, using this large language model neural network of all the relationship books. You know, here's the situation. What do you think? And it gave me this amazing answer. It was a bit sycophantic. But I'm I'm emotionally supported enough in my life where sycophancy actually causes me to be suspicious. So I found that I could train it not to be sycophantic as long as I kept reminding it. But it gave me this response that gave me so much insight into why we were the way we were together. And it shone a light on the kinds of loops that we were in.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  And it helps me disentangle the threads of validating him emotionally without meeting him in a loop. So does that make sense?

• 7:49Esther Perel?

  Conceptually, it makes a lot of sense, but since relationships are lived in the details. I'll ask you to share an example that's more granular. Because the reason you kept coming back is not because it was vague and abstract. You kept coming back because it was extremely precise. It was extremely pragmatic and instructive. You could instantly go and try it out, practice, practice, and then see what happens.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:23Esther Perel?

  And come back with the next installment. Do you see each other in person ever, or the whole thing is just on long distance?

• 8:30Speaker 00

  Oh, we see each other as much as we can. Yeah, I would say we probably spend probably about a fifth of our time together.

• 8:37Esther Perel?

  Give me an example of, um.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Of the time when I used it?

• 8:43Esther Perel?

  Yeah, it's more like I didn't need it to be sycophantic. I needed it to be super useful.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 8:49Esther Perel?

  And I needed to see myself transform in front of my own eyes.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 8:55Esther Perel?

  By applying the instructions.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:59Esther Perel?

  And that became the power of it. So, tell me more.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  So, I am a woman who loves her male friends. And I've always had male friends in my life, uh, ever since I was little. And I really value the presence of them. They're a good balance for me. And they've never, ever, ever been a threat to my relationships, my romantic relationships. They're completely separate. And he has background where he's actually been left for his ex-girlfriend's male friends. So he has that experience and he brings that into our relationship as a suspicion.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  So that's, I think that's fair, but I also need to hold my own boundaries around that. And um, and communicate those with him in such a way that doesn't allow him or just doesn't, you know, doesn't call my integrity into question. So when I had a male friend who was traveling, stay at my house and he was not there. He had a really big problem with it. And, you know, he said some things that were not true about the dynamic. And I had to separate out his emotions, you know, his valid nervousness about it from.

• 10:24Esther Perel?

  He accused you of cheating?

• 10:26Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah.

• 10:28Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  And so I had to separate that from the reality and from holding my boundaries and, and, and asking him to trust me. Disentangling his emotions from the trust. And that's that's really tricky, you know, I mean, my impulse as a very logical person is to describe my day with my friend. And show him how I can't possibly be doing what he thought I might be doing with him. And even putting him on the phone, you know, I would, I put my friend on the phone with with him just till they could meet, you know, uh, on video call. And so that was, that was my impulse.

• 11:14Esther Perel?

  It all backfired.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  Right, right. What was way more useful was.

• 11:20Esther Perel?

  I could have told you that, too.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:23Esther Perel?

  Basically, you were trying to legitimize your actions, separate the truth from his fears, be defensive, and all of this was getting you nowhere.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  Right, right. And so, um, yeah, so ChatGPT was like a real time coach, you know, and it with the, what I could do is I I managed the situation much more effectively by just hearing him out and just not even not being available for him to call my trust into question and asking him to please meet me with more curiosity, you know, if you have a question of my behavior, you need to ask me about it. And and then when you ask me about it, when I answer, I really need you to trust me. So separating those threads was was very useful for me. And that's, I think that all of our loops follow a similar pattern.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  And I've been able to deploy these tools for them. When I use it in real time, I have to say it's it's much quicker and more efficient in breaking the loops than I am on my own still. Um, but I'm getting better, I'm getting there.

• 12:36Esther Perel?

  So while you were trying to garner his trust,

• 12:41Esther Perel?

  AI was also capturing your trust.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:47Esther Perel?

  And what allowed you to trust it? Not as in it gave me good advice, but as in I'm gonna do what it tells me. I'm going to practice something different when I'm so completely wrapped into being stuck in this repeated loop. Where did your flexibility come from? It's beautiful.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  Good question. I have a pretty good level of discernment. And when everything it was telling me made complete sense.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  And was was challenging for me, but challenging in a way that felt true.

• 13:29Esther Perel?

  So you knew when you derailed and you needed somebody or something to help you get on a different track?

• 13:37Speaker 00

  Yes, ma'am. Mm hmm.

• 13:39Esther Perel?

  And did he notice your change? Is he aware that you've embarked on a different track?

• 13:47Speaker 00

  I don't know if he noticed a change in me as much as he noticed a change in himself. Because he noticed that he was seeking more self-awareness on his own part. And holding himself differently in our conflicts. He actually remarked that his friends and family noticed a change in him. That, you know, hey, it might be attributable to our relationship, but I I have to say, I don't know that the dynamic would have been complete without my use of AI.

• 14:28Esther Perel?

  Says you.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  Right, says me, sure.

• 14:31Esther Perel?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the loop is bigger. AI makes its recommendation.

• 14:40Esther Perel?

  You put them into practice.

• 14:43Esther Perel?

  When you change, he changes. Because there's no better way to change the other than to change ourselves. When we are in a loop. Because if I do something that instigates you to respond in a certain way. If I start doing something else, sooner or later, you're gonna respond differently. Because I'm not giving you the expected repartee. So in loops, it is really the secret of how you change them. If you change you, you change the other. But the other doesn't necessarily think that you've changed. They notice their change.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:27Esther Perel?

  Or sometimes they may say, I'm different because she's different. So in effect, what I'm telling you is that you didn't just use AI for you. AI wasn't just coaching you, AI was coaching the relationship.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, that feels accurate. Yeah.

• 15:47Esther Perel?

  Did you read some of the same things in the books that were given to you?

• 15:50Speaker 00

  I did. Yeah, they were very similar to what the, what the AI was coaching me to do.

• 15:57Esther Perel?

  Or the AI learned well. A large language model on.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:02Esther Perel?

  The arrow goes in a different direction.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:05Esther Perel?

  So ChatGPT is regurgitating in a very efficient way. What it has taken from, as you said, all the books that I couldn't read.

• 16:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:16Esther Perel?

  You know? And has there been moments when it said something and you said, I'm not doing this? Do you argue?

• 16:25Speaker 00

  I do. I argue with it.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  You know, sometimes, yes. I have to say, sometimes it's a little bit inhuman.

• 16:33Esther Perel?

  And you were wrong.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  That's true. That's true. But often its recommendations are so cold, you know, and they're, they're inhuman. And I'm, I'm a very warm. Oh, okay.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Um, let's see here.

• 16:48Esther Perel?

  I don't know you, so if you tell me warm and cold, I don't really know what that represents for you.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 16:54Esther Perel?

  So, I'm not just nosy for the sake of nosy, but in the examples, I get to experience more of you on a granular, sensitive level.

• 17:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Would you mind if I looked something up real quick?

• 17:09Esther Perel?

  Go ahead.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  Let's see, I'm just gonna look at my phone. Um, yeah, I'm just gonna look at my phone and see and see if I can find, um, real quick, um, a recent recommendation that I thought, oh, man, that's I'm not, I can't say that because it's so cold. So, let's see here. Uh, so something, I was trying to draw a line about some, some assumptions he made when I called him and the, the AI suggested that I said, you can have your reactions, but I'm not the place, you discharge them by assuming things about me. And that to me reads as a little bit combative. What it does, though, what's what I think ChatGPT is really good at doing is giving me different options and letting me choose from them or synthesize them.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  And then I can, I can look to see the different angles it comes from. So that I can do something and then add my voice and add a little bit more personal context.

• 18:16Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 18:56Speaker 04

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's fall drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon Fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in-store and on lululemon.com now.

• 19:26Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin? comes from Shopify. Starting a business requires you to be resourceful, and the more you flex that muscle, the more you start to recognize growth opportunities, like using Shopify to launch your business. And that's especially true if you launch with Black Friday approaching, so you can take advantage of the extra online traffic. Shopify is the platform for a record-breaking, reliable, holiday-selling season for businesses at every stage. Their pre-built website themes and AI site builder make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional-looking website. And you don't even need to touch a line of code to do it. They also have a mobile app that lets you run your online store from anywhere.

• 20:09Esther Perel?

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Esther to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Esther. Go to Shopify.com/Esther today to hear your first...

• 20:29Esther Perel?

  Tell me more about your relationship now. Interestingly, at this point, I know more about your relationship with the chat than I know about your relationship with your boyfriend.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay. So it's the kind of dynamic where we have very high highs and then the lows suck. There are lows that I've never had in a relationship before, or if I have, it's been a very long time, back maybe in my early twenties.

• 20:59Esther Perel?

  And the same is true for the highs?

• 21:01Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, most definitely. I've never experienced this kind of high before in a relationship. And I don't mean like a high as in a good drug high, but just the kind of, just our connection is just so beautiful and so meaningful to me. It's woken me up in ways I've never been awake before.

• 21:22Esther Perel?

  In what sense?

• 21:24Speaker 00

  Well, I see the world through trinities. The mind, body, spirit, head, heart, hands, et cetera. And, you know, I've always been very good at cultivating my trinity individually, my mind, heart, and body. But I've never really cultivated a connection between my heart and my body. And that is a connection that it has really woken up in this relationship. Our dynamic has really activated that. And it's not just in our relationship, but it's the kind of thing where I can feel gratitude more in my body now. I can feel joy in my body now. I can feel sadness. Um, I haven't, like, before meeting him and having this relationship, I hadn't cried since I was probably ten,

• 22:09Speaker 00

  except at my grandma's funeral a few years ago. And now I'm an emotional person. Now I cry. It's wonderful. And I absolutely credit our relationship with waking that up. So it's very precious to me. Now, I'm sure that the connection was always there, of course. It's just now it's awake and now and he's, he's really helped me realize that. So I know it's meaningful to him as well. And it seems only to be getting better, you know, especially now that we can have more healthy conflicts.

• 22:45Esther Perel?

  I was for ten years before this in a relationship. That was stable.

• 22:54Esther Perel?

  That may have been more distant.

• 22:59Esther Perel?

  More conflict avoidant. No highs, no lows. Steady temperature.

• 23:07Esther Perel?

  I don't know why you left or why it ended or why they left for that matter. I don't know the end of that relationship. But I find myself, or you find yourself, in a new relationship that has all the passion that the previous one lacked.

• 23:25Esther Perel?

  But the passion comes with an erotic intimacy, an erotic charge, and also an erotic wrath.

• 23:34Esther Perel?

  And it goes from heaven to hell and very fast.

• 23:39Esther Perel?

  And if we don't find a way to not drop so low,

• 23:46Esther Perel?

  slowly but surely, the highs will erode.

• 23:51Esther Perel?

  So I needed to find something fast and effective. And you did something that is quite wonderful, which was to say, I'm gonna focus on me. Because it's very easy in a dynamic like this, since it's part of the core of the dynamic, to be a blame fest. You do this, you do this, I do this because you, I wouldn't do this if you didn't. It's a whole blame fest.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 24:20Esther Perel?

  That's part of the loop. So you decide, I need help. I need to change this. What can I do? I don't wanna be in this place. I don't wanna say what I say. I don't wanna feel what I feel. I don't wanna do what I do. How do I step from out of this? And in that sense, you're using this AI, this machine, in a very pragmatic, tool-oriented way.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 24:50Esther Perel?

  And part of your question is, is this a tool? Is this a legitimate tool? Is this a transgression?

• 24:59Speaker 00

  Hmm, yes.

• 25:00Esther Perel?

  Which is no longer a tool? Is there a breach? Am I violating something? Is this an ethical dilemma? Or is this simply, I couldn't read every book I wanted to read, so I found a very good Reader's Digest?

• 25:17Speaker 00

  That's so true.

• 25:18Esther Perel?

  Hmm. Okay, that's why I wanna know about the relationship. Because what happens when you say to me, no, I don't plan to share any of this? Okay, I mean, not that you have to, not that that matters to me, but what you did say is, he is not into this.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  No.

• 25:39Esther Perel?

  So that is where it taints, or tints, maybe is a better verb, the secrecy a little bit more.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:50Esther Perel?

  It's like, whatever he's, he would not be into that I'm doing behind his back. And not only am I doing it behind his back, but on top of it, I'm bringing it into a relationship. And little does he know.

• 26:02Speaker 00

  I know, and I have to tell you though, I, I think I justify it because if the tables were turned and he were doing this, if he were using AI, I would absolutely celebrate it. I would love for him to get a second opinion, as long as he was using what I was really saying and not his version of, you know? If that makes sense.

• 26:20Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. Right. But what I'm saying is that your ethical dilemma takes place in the context of a particular relationship, where your partner has strong opinions about the very thing that you're questioning.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:35Esther Perel?

  And you can't ignore that.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:39Esther Perel?

  Hmm? And I, honestly, when I say it doesn't, it's not, it's not what I think here, because I, I have no answers to some of your questions. These are new questions for many of us.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 26:51Esther Perel?

  But the question about, is this a tool or is this a transgression?

• 26:58Esther Perel?

  I want you to think about for a moment, as you experience it.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that you made a really good point a while ago when you said that, um, you know, when I was describing our, the granular conflict. And you said, I could have told you that, you know, I meaning you. And so I think, what if, what if I were in a relationship where I needed support? And I were to seek out the help of a therapist? And my partner would say, I don't like therapists. I think there are a lot of bunk. Mm hmm. Yeah, so is this, is this parallel? I don't know.

• 27:37Esther Perel?

  So, I have been in situations where one person comes to therapy and the other person is a convinced skeptic, thinks the whole thing is useless. And the question is not about what people think about therapy.

• 28:02Esther Perel?

  In my mind, or what people think about AI for that matter. I mean, not that they are irrelevant, but I would put another one on top of it. You can't sleep and you decide to take melatonin and the other person thinks melatonin is useless. You want to eat a certain way and you change your entire diet and the other person thinks it's stupid. It's what is the level of differentiation in the relationship? How much does one person live side by side with another person who thinks differently about certain things?

• 28:43Esther Perel?

  Does different things, practices different things? Without thinking, if I don't like it, if I don't agree with it, if I don't believe in it, if I'm not a convert, you shouldn't be doing this, or I'm gonna tell you on a regular basis how poorly I think about it. Which I'm saying to you is that the process, the dynamic is more important, the particular issue. If the issue is drinking, taking melatonin, going to therapy, doing the AI, they are not the same, but the dynamic may be the exact same one.

• 29:25Speaker 00

  I see.

• 29:26Esther Perel?

  And the dynamic is, you shouldn't do what I don't like.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:31Esther Perel?

  Or what I don't believe in or agree with.

• 29:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:35Esther Perel?

  Differentiation is about the acceptance of otherness inside a relationship without reactivity.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  Hmm. Yeah, I see what you're saying.

• 29:46Esther Perel?

  Which is in effect what the AI counseled you on.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:51Esther Perel?

  It didn't just counsel you about how to not engage and get angry and be in a fight. It told you how to be able to listen to him without agreeing with him. That's differentiation. It told you about how to elicit curiosity toward you, which means engaging with the otherness.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 30:14Esther Perel?

  It didn't just say, let me show you the guy that's staying with me so that you can see that I'm not sleeping around and I'm not cheating on you, because that really wasn't doing it.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Uh-uh.

• 30:23Esther Perel?

  It showed you how to have empathy without having to first constantly being into self-legitimization. That's differentiation.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Uh-huh.

• 30:34Esther Perel?

  So, one thing I say to you is when you get advice from the chat, it's useful to know what is the advice you're getting.

• 30:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:42Esther Perel?

  What is it actually coaching you on? It is coaching you not just on reducing conflict. It is coaching you on tolerating difference and introducing the tolerance for difference inside your relationship.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's really beautiful too, because we are so different. Oh, man, our backgrounds are different, we are different, and our outlooks on the world are different, you know? Politically different, all the differences. And I think, you know, I love us and I love people who are different. They expand my world, but being in a relationship one is certainly fraught with a lot of friction. And I'm just, I'm so grateful to this tool for helping me navigate that friction in a way that has made it work. I'm not sure it would have worked otherwise, to be honest with you.

• 31:32Esther Perel?

  Because I would have felt attacked unjustly?

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, attacked and stressed and questioning myself all the time and questioning my sanity.

• 31:48Speaker 00

  I guess bending too, contorting too much, contorting myself too much in order to match what I felt like he was demanding of me. You know, rather than holding my own and respecting my own boundaries and being able to, to stand solid in myself. And to really celebrate our differences as, you know, as I want to. Because I, I love the ways that he's, the ways that he's different from me. You know, he, he pushes me, challenges me, and I just, I love that about us. But as you know, it just, it comes with this other side that I'm navigating.

• 32:21Esther Perel?

  And the other side is what?

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Oh, the, the ways of approaching conflict, the friction that happens.

• 32:30Esther Perel?

  That comes after.

• 32:33Esther Perel?

  There would be no conflict if you said yes to everything.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:40Esther Perel?

  You say I love the difference.

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:44Esther Perel?

  Does he?

• 32:47Esther Perel?

  Or does he like to change the difference into sameness?

• 32:52Speaker 00

  That's a really good question. Um, he says he loves the difference. Yeah, he says he loves the difference.

• 32:59Esther Perel?

  On a good day?

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, on a good day, he says he loves the difference. And he also, on a good day, he says how much he has learned from our relationship. And you know, when he, when he walks, um, he loves how he walks differently. And he loves the feedback that he's gotten from family about his changes, about, you know, his confidence and his calmness. There are some things about me that, um, I think that he wishes were, were different. Um, do you want me to be specific?

• 33:35Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 33:37Esther Perel?

  You understood me.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  So, yeah, okay, thank you. Um.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  His background is a little bit more suspicious of institutions than mine is.

• 33:48Speaker 00

  And he, um, has, let's see, I call it the C word, but I'm gonna go ahead and use it. Um, he knows about, all about the conspiracy theories that are out there. And he gives them a lot of credence.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  You know, on a, on a still day, um, he'll look up at the sky and look at all the, the contrails and just kind of be like, oh, they're poisoning us with all the chemtrails and, um, and I'm, I'm more, I'm, I'm a little bit more trusting of our institutions. I think that institutions are really useful in our society. And that's, that's my point of view. And I'm learning that that's a big sticking point. So, you know, it makes a lot of sense with his background that he is mistrustful of institutions. And I like to have him send me all of the sources that he uses to validate his worldview so that I can

• 34:51Speaker 00

  understand it and question mine if needed.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  Think that he he sees me as kind of naive, maybe a little bit blind. And it's an interesting power dynamic, you know, because um he I I think and I I know this is kind of common for a lot of people who give credence to this stuff is um, you know, they kind of see that they have access to this truth that the mainstream doesn't have access to.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  And I think that he wishes that I were a little bit more suspicious along with him. So that's just one example. Uh, it's a big one. And we're coming to the place, I think, where we're trying to share our information sources a little bit more with each other.

• 35:42Esther Perel?

  Is he curious about yours?

• 35:46Speaker 00

  Uh, not really, to be honest. He thinks I'm naive and he's not, he he figures that my information sources are all the mainstream media, which, you know, he doesn't trust. That's not really true. I do have my little nichey outlets that I like. But yeah, he doesn't trust that. He he still thinks that I'm very mainstream and naive.

• 36:10Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 36:51Speaker 05

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon Fall Drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's Fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 37:20Speaker 06

  Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger: Fresh for Everyone. Restrictions apply. See site or store for details.

• 37:53Esther Perel?

  Have you asked Chat to think with you about the power of what the physical passion represents for you in your ability to be in the presence of differences that you probably would not have chosen otherwise?

• 38:20Speaker 00

  No, I haven't asked that question. That'd be a great question to ask.

• 38:24Esther Perel?

  But it is a question that you have, right?

• 38:26Speaker 00

  It is, absolutely. I gotta tell you, though, I do, I have a, my family is a little bit more, it's kind of between the two of us. And I always, I like challenging conversations and I like, I love nuance.

• 38:43Esther Perel?

  But when you tell me what you just did, it's not a challenging conversation. Because Chat tried to switch your response from attack and reaction to reflection and curiosity.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:06Esther Perel?

  What I asked you is not if you agree, if you think alike. I don't think homophily should exclude politics. So that's not the point. But what you're telling me is the burden is on you.

• 39:21Speaker 00

  To smooth the differences? And I'm accepting this burden because of the passion?

• 39:28Esther Perel?

  Yeah. There's very few things that can actually withstand the power of these differences than the power of the body.

• 39:41Esther Perel?

  Not the heart, not the mind, the body. So when you say, I read his things, I look at his sources, I am the naive, I am the one who doesn't see, I read the mainstream bullshit, I, I, I. He sets the tone on that. And so then I'm just thinking, it's an interesting thing. It's like, you're willing to change your mind, you're willing to, which is great, by the way. But you are with somebody who expects you to change your mind. If anybody is to change their mind.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  Perhaps, yeah, I definitely don't expect him to change his mind. I don't, I don't see that ever happening.

• 40:25Speaker 00

  That's okay. It's something that we've navigated so far, and I think as long as we are respectful of each other. Am I, am I getting it wrong here?

• 40:37Esther Perel?

  No, but you're not, you're not getting it wrong at all. But there's something you feel and you don't want to see it. It's one thing to respect differences, and it's another thing to be cast as the naive.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  Hmm, yeah, it is, it is pretty shitty.

• 40:52Esther Perel?

  Okay? You're telling me I have strong opinions, I can hold my own. I have been with more than one man in my life. I have had different types of relationships, and I don't know anything before the one before this. But I hold my ground, is what you're saying. And that's a different thing.

• 41:14Esther Perel?

  To be the naive. With naive comes a whole set of other associations, huh? That's personality, that's not content.

• 41:22Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:23Esther Perel?

  That's why I'm asking you.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  So you're asking me to explore what that means in the other parts of my, of our dynamic?

• 41:32Esther Perel?

  Yeah, yeah. Because so far you've asked Chat to help with very specific things.

• 41:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, like real time.

• 41:40Esther Perel?

  I don't wanna act this way, how do I act another way?

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:44Esther Perel?

  That's very, very helpful and precise.

• 41:47Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:47Esther Perel?

  Now you're entering a range of other issues in the relationship that are a lot more subtle.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:56Esther Perel?

  They're not obvious, they're not explosive, they're not argumentative, they're not adversarial. It's kind of how do I co-opt?

• 42:07Speaker 00

  So how do I use that as a, a framing? For this next phase of our relationship as I work out the subtleties of our compatibility? And our power dynamics?

• 42:17Esther Perel?

  Hmm. Mm-hmm. You got the word right.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  You know, um, I feel like that's a really interesting like intellectual exercise and I'd love to talk about it with my therapist.

• 42:32Speaker 00

  But I wonder what ChatGPT would say about that. I'm gonna write it down.

• 42:36Esther Perel?

  You wanna ask? Go ahead.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  Right now?

• 42:39Esther Perel?

  Yeah, let's see.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Okay, okay. So, let's see.

• 42:44Esther Perel?

  I'm curious too.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  Okay. So he thinks I'm naive about world issues. It's just like brass tacks here.

• 42:53Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  Alright, so taken as a pattern, how does the intensity of our physical connection override?

• 43:01Esther Perel?

  Be strong enough to withstand the diminishment of my mental abilities.

• 43:06Speaker 00

  Okay, thank you for, thank you for that.

• 43:08Esther Perel?

  And I'll tell you why this becomes a relevant question.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 43:13Esther Perel?

  Because if at some point Chat understands you better, doesn't put you down for what you think, doesn't claim you to be naive in your worldview and whatever else, then your relationship with the AI will change.

• 43:32Speaker 00

  I like being in a relationship with a human, with somebody like a messy human. You know, it's it's very rewarding, it's beautiful. I like all of it, you know. I love, I love the whole gamut of the human experience. I love, you know, the fact that I can feel sadness now and cry about it is gorgeous to me. And um, the fact that I can feel joy in my body is gorgeous to me. So relating with AI is just not like that at all. It's all it is is just, it's tapping into knowledge. And the moment it starts becoming a sycophant, I, you know, I shut that down because I don't want that validation, you know.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  I, I, I know I'm a reasonable person and I, I know that I'm intelligent enough.

• 44:21Esther Perel?

  Good.

• 44:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. But I do, I'm concerned about that for sure, for, for the people who, who don't have that. You know.

• 44:32Esther Perel?

  But you're being very clear about yourself, so I can totally put aside the concern that I raised with you. So what does it say? What does it answering us?

• 44:42Speaker 00

  All right, so I'm just gonna go ahead and tell you the, how the, okay, so he thinks I'm naive about world issues. Taken as a tip of the iceberg for a pattern, might the intensity of our physical connection be strong enough to withstand my discernment on these matters? Okay, short answer, no. The physical connection won't carry a structural mismatch in how you're seen and interpreted. Longer answer without softening it, what you're describing isn't really about world issues, it's about epistemic trust. Does he believe your perception of reality is sound? Right now, across multiple situations, he assigns intent, questions your read, and positions himself as more accurate. That's a hierarchy. My read is greater than your read.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  And once that hierarchy is in place, it doesn't stay contained to one topic, it generalizes.

• 45:31Esther Perel?

  By the way, that is being answered on the basis of things it's now remembering.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:36Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  A little bit, yes, yes.

• 45:39Esther Perel?

  Good friend.

• 45:39Speaker 00

  Okay. Okay, why the physical connection won't offset this? Strong chemistry can increase tolerance, delay confrontation, make repair feel more rewarding, but it does not correct misalignment in respect, trust, and interpretation. In fact, it can make it worse. Because the better it feels physically, the more you're tempted to overlook what doesn't hold structurally. The real question isn't about intensity, it's this. Can you feel attracted to someone who consistently doubts your judgment and assigns you a lower level of discernment? You already answered that earlier, which I did. My attraction drops when he assumes negative intent. Naive is just a more global version of the same move.

• 46:24Speaker 00

  Next section is what this pattern becomes over time if unchanged. Are you interested?

• 46:30Esther Perel?

  In the first line.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  Okay. Not hypothetically and predictably, you explain your thinking more. He pokes holes and reframes. You defend her withdraw. He retains the position of more accurate, which erodes ease, respect, and desire. And you either disengage emotionally or start editing yourself to avoid being misread. And then it corrected my framing. It said, "The correct frame is, does this relationship support or erode my ability to trust my own perception?" So that's the question. And yeah, that's everything, isn't it? It's interesting. There does seem to be a growing disconnect sometimes.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  And I don't think it overrides my ability to trust my perception. But I do think it might override my ability to bring that trust to bear, if that makes sense, because it's so, yeah.

• 47:31Esther Perel?

  Yeah, that's why the chat says, "You will avoid these confrontations." So I'm going back to your original question, because we have arrived to the end of our time together, which is, how do I ensure this remains a tool and doesn't become a transgression? Figuratively, metaphorically, the transgression. As in, it's a secret, I'm hiding it from him. And in part, because when it comes to AI, the dynamic is not that different from the politics. It's the same.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  It's like a way that, so he has his power, that he's keeping close to the vest on his side, and this is my power, and keeping close to the vest on my side?

• 48:16Esther Perel?

  Exactly. So, the next question is, what are the rules of transparency? What are the rules of privacy? And what makes for secrecy? In a conspiratorial viewpoint of the world, there often is not really a sense of privacy. It's transparency or secrecy.

• 48:46Esther Perel?

  Separately from politics. So, that's another question. And these are questions for you to ponder. These are not questions that we can answer, you know, in our conversation. But what is, what is privacy for you? And what is privacy in our relationship? How does the relationship evolve? That some things that we are expecting to share from it with each other, and some things remain very much our own. Does it change if we have a way to move in together versus if we live in a long-distance relationship? How does the circumstances of our relationship dictate what is shared and what is personal? If we live apart, we don't have to tell, I'm going now and I'm coming back then.

• 49:31Esther Perel?

  If we live in the same place, there's more likelihood that we would have to make that a shared piece of information rather than just my life. The rhythms of my own life. These are developmental questions of any relationship. Separately from any tech.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, and I came from a place where, to me, like intimacy equals full disclosure about everything.

• 49:57Esther Perel?

  Intimacy equals full disclosure, okay?

• 50:01Speaker 00

  Mm hmm, of everything, you know.

• 50:03Esther Perel?

  There is a possibility that if he is in recovery, he has known to do things not in a transparent way.

• 50:14Esther Perel?

  So often, people who have had addictions are masters of hiding

• 50:22Esther Perel?

  in all kinds of ways.

• 50:26Esther Perel?

  And they often think other people are hiding because they know very well how to do it themselves.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's where the trust issue comes in, for sure.

• 50:38Esther Perel?

  I don't trust you is often because I know what I would be doing if I was in your situation. Or I am capable of doing such a thing, or I've, you know, I've been in situations that make that very much a possibility.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Hmm, mm hmm.

• 50:54Esther Perel?

  How is this conversation for you so far? Because we have to stop it.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  Oh, I love it. Yeah, I know. I I love it. I think it's wonderful. I had no idea what to expect going into this. And, um, you know, I I love that you you've made me ask ChatGPT a question in real time, and you framed it in a way that I think was so far below the surface for me, but made a lot of sense, and it brought it up. And I just, I I feel like you really heard me and what I was saying, and I loved that, I loved your framing of our relationship, once you learned our, um, learn more about it, you know, and our passion, and and then you

• 51:38Speaker 00

  you have such a great background with these very volatile dynamics and kind of can identify that, you know, while yes, there are high highs, there are also low lows, and navigating those is a challenge. And here I I found a tool to help me navigate those challenges so that I can enjoy the high highs a little bit more and make it last longer, you know, to be honest.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  So, yeah.

• 52:02Esther Perel?

  Good.

• 52:02Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 52:03Esther Perel?

  You're welcome. I wish we could talk more, but we have to stop.

• 52:09Esther Perel?

  So I'm gonna just put three dots at the end of the sentence. And thank you very much. You're helping me think and ask new questions as well.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 52:25Speaker 07

  This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?

• 53:09Speaker 07

  Are Astaire Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 53:57Speaker 05

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.