#289 - New DMT Study Finds Evidence Aliens Are Simulating Our Reality | Zoltan Bathory & Danny Goler

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Zoltan Bathory is a musician, martial artist & founder of Five Finger Death Punch. Danny Goler is a filmmaker who created an experiment with DMT & laser beams that suggests we could living inside a simulated computational reality. SPONSORS https://twc.health/danny - Use code DANNY for up to $30 off + free shipping. https://bit.ly/viiadannyjones - Use code DANNY for 15% off. https://evening.ver.so/danny - Use code DANNY for 15% off your first order. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off DANNY GOLER LINKS YouTube Channel: @dangothoughts https://www.tiktok.com/@dannygoler https://www.instagram.com/dannygoler https://twitter.com/GolerDanny ZOLTAN LINKS https://www.instagram.com/zoltanbathory @FiveFingerDeathPunch FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Psychedelic super soldiers 09:38 - Zoltan's jiu jitsu training 20:04 - Zoltan's near death experience 34:27 - How Zoltan escaped Hungary 40:52 - The truth about the burning monk 50:51 - Hacking the body's operating system with meditation 59:47 - Tapping into the universal consciousness 01:05:07 - Zoltan's work in the aerospace industry 01:14:08 - The "cup of consciousness" analogy 01:26:18 - End of spiritual childhood 01:33:42 - How to map the DMT space with science 01:42:19 - Objecthood & the gestalt of reality 01:52:45 - Reality is a hologram 02:01:46 - NEW DMT laser experiment using magnets 02:11:02 - Seeing DMT code without DMT? 02:26:07 - Correcting the map of human history 02:33:09 - The purpose of human existence 02:47:17 - Dropping your "anchor" of reality in experience 02:55:59 - Kicked out of the DMT space by a 'being' 03:11:32 - What NDEs and DMT have in common 03:22:30 - Asking for help from DMT creatures 03:33:12 - Using DMT as a tool for human optimization 03:49:18 - Experiments to help you break out of the matrix 04:01:13 - "Burning man magic" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07Danny Jones?

  Oh, we are rolling.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Like you mean jujitsu rolling or just rolling?

• 0:10Danny Jones?

  Not jujitsu rolling, just regular rolling. Maybe later we'll do some jujitsu rolling. I gotta bring my mat over here, though.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Maybe you can smoke DMT and then you guys can roll.

• 0:18Danny Jones?

  Imagine? Can you imagine? It wouldn't be much of a roll. I mean, he like play with me like some fucking cat toy or something.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  I think that's regardless. Well, then Hardy, right? The MMA fighter, he used to talk about his usage of psychedelics in fighting.

• 0:32Danny Jones?

  Who?

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Dan Hardy was his name?

• 0:34Danny Jones?

  I don't know who that is.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was a famous, yeah, he was a famous UFC fighter.

• 0:39Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 0:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he used to talk about how he used to get in the cage on mushrooms. And he said, "I could see the future," he said, "like I can see that." Yeah.

• 0:46Danny Jones?

  Well, you know, they do that, they give that to warfighters now. That thing, remember that article I sent you last night?

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's...

• 0:53Danny Jones?

  They're giving people in Ukraine, they're giving Ukrainian soldiers ibogaine and like that, and psychedelics, psychedelic mushrooms, they're doing, DARPA's doing this study. That's fun, they're funding people at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, I think, to study the use of psychedelics like ibogaine and even psilocybin on soldiers and on the battlefield.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  On the battlefield?

• 1:15Danny Jones?

  On the battlefield for like, for like edge detection. Because I guess it enhances edge detection. Like, well, not just that, but to be more optimal with a fucking gun.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Ibogaine?

• 1:26Danny Jones?

  I guess.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  That, the story you sent me looked like...

• 1:29Danny Jones?

  Did you read it?

• 1:30Speaker 01

  I just saw the title, because it was in the middle of the night. But the title seemed to have implied, have been implying that it's for healing, like a trauma.

• 1:38Danny Jones?

  I think part of it's for the trauma and part of it is also...

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Let's remove your trauma so you can go back to battle.

• 1:42Danny Jones?

  Also, a huge part of it is for optimizing battlefield, like soldiers on the battlefield.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  That's what it says in that story?

• 1:51Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 1:53Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Maybe it's not that cool then.

• 1:54Danny Jones?

  To make them more accurate, like shooting.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  I mean, that's insane. That's the wrong usage of the title.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  I can see what LSD definitely would be.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  LSD, that's what they thought.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  MKUltra, all that stuff, that's what they thought, right?

• 2:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I mean, look, the government's been weaponizing drugs since the beginning of time, right? If they're gonna use, if they are studying drugs, they're gonna figure out a way to weaponize them.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:14Danny Jones?

  You know?

• 2:15Speaker 01

  I mean, that that you would think it sounds like it should be an obvious thing for us. And yet I think that the the problem is that it's an obvious thing for us.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Like, that should not be the attitude of humanity as a whole. Like, this idea that it's always a zero sum game just needs to go away, basically.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Otherwise, there's just no chance. Because you're gonna get bigger and bigger weapons. You're gonna be able to go wham, and you're gonna destroy more things. So the attitude of the monkey is the only thing that becomes actually matters.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Well, there is that meme, you know, that people who run the government, those people never took mushrooms, and the people who took mushroom know why this is a problem.

• 2:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly, right? Oh, man. Well, it's great to have you guys here today. Danny, Goler, you're back. We had a fantastic episode, talking all about the DMT laser experiment you did. And I'm sure we're gonna talk more about that today and some of the new stuff you've been doing with it.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  I had a blast.

• 3:10Danny Jones?

  And Zoltan, it's awesome to meet you, brother. We had a fucking wild conversation last night at dinner. You you are like a Renaissance man. You're born in Hungary, correct?

• 3:22Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 3:22Danny Jones?

  Soviet-controlled Hungary.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:24Danny Jones?

  Uh, double black belt jiu-jitsu judo and you're founder of the band Five Finger Death Punch.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Double in some music, yeah.

• 3:33Danny Jones?

  You do everything. What the don't you do?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  And so that's pretty much it, you know, like you have a checkmark on life that these are the things I need to do, and I just I just check them. That's pretty much what it is.

• 3:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah. So how did you guys get together? How did you guys first meet?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  We met through a mutual friend who I don't, I'm not, I'm never sure if he necessarily wants to always be mentioned in every context, but we met through a mutual friend, very good friend, and we basically met at the, at an event that, event that Zoltan is now the founder of as well, which is the PGF. It's a Brazilian jiu-jitsu, would you call it a league?

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Yes, a professional grappling federation, and we have jiu-jitsu competitions.

• 4:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  I was invited to come help with the event, just kind of shoot stuff and all that good stuff. And then me and Zoltan were, I was invited to Zoltan's house to shoot some, actually a podcast, so just do a little setup. And I had to stay for another day because we were, you know, we were kind of rolling behind. So then it was like, hey, can you stay overnight? I'm like, sure. That evening, we sit down, start talking. He starts talking about some profound shit that, you know, always kind of the conversation drifts towards.

• 4:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  And then I, I remember I, the short version of the story is that I asked him some question about something that he was describing in the psychedelic space. And then he kind of threw me a glance. And he goes, okay. And then he kept on talking and then I asked him another question. Then he goes, wait a second. And he goes, what's your name? I go, cause we didn't really, I go Danny. And he looks back at our mutual friend and goes, wait. This is DMT Danny? I go, what? He goes, bro, I've been following you. I'm like, what? I was like, first of all, I didn't know my name was DMT Danny. Second of all, and he's like, bro, I'm like, you know, and then, and then later Zoltan was saying that the reason he looked at me is because he knew

• 5:29Speaker 01

  that the question I asked him, which I wish we would remember what it was, but I asked him something that he knew that only somebody who went really deep in the space kind of would know that kind of stuff. Cause it's very specific.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  And that's, and then from that moment on, we just literally became best friends. Like we were just like two, you know, butt heads just sitting there and like talking till 5am about all kinds of.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  He stayed a week.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  I stayed a week.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Like we started a conversation, it lasted a week.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Stayed at your house a week?

• 5:55Speaker 02

  You know, that's the kind of thing where, you know, somehow people who are in this space usually find each other, you know? I always joke about it. There's no secret society. What is, is everybody's underwater and you pop your head out and look around and who was ever, whoever is out, you can see them kind of, you know? Like you, we always, we kind of have this network. We all sort of know each other. Eventually we, we find each other and I heard about him. Like that was his nickname, DMT Danny. And, and you know, I kept hearing the stories and I was, I was aware of the laser. And I was aware of Pepe, the, the guy who was making the lasers for me. So, so I knew of him.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Right? And I had sort of a spiritual conversation. People were asking questions and I was talking and I look up and I see like, there's this circle around me. Everybody pulled up their chair. I'm like, oh, shit, it became a lecture sort of, right? And that's what, what Danny said. He asked me a question. And the reason I looked at him, I'm, okay, he, he cannot possibly know that. The, I wish I remember what you asked.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  But there's no way for you to know that if you haven't been there.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Right? And then he has the second question and that's when I'm like, okay, hold on for a second.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Are you Danny?

• 7:08Danny Jones?

  You knew it.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  One thing I can say that was kind of surprising to me is because a lot of people in the, just in the psychedelic space in general, they have this way of exploring these spaces that is very loose, so to speak. So people go into these spaces and they have their experiences and then they exchange notes. But ultimately, it's always a very, it's a very shifty ground that people are trying to describe to one another, right? So people come to a conclusion about particular things like beings or spaces and things like this. But with Zoltan, it was so obvious that not just that he exploited it very deeply, but also, I mean, you know,

• 7:48Speaker 01

  his reputation kind of runs in front of him. So like, it's not like, so Zoltan loves stories, he has a lot of stories. But at the same time, there's the execution level is so high, right? Every single thing he touches, I call him like a master pattern recognizer. Yeah. The martial arts, the music. He was never taught to play the guitar. So it's like, he just understands what patterns work. Like, he, he just started, like, what I started telling you, like, he started building this property he got. And then he was like, well, maybe I'll get into like, understanding some things about architecture. Pools, one of the, one of the most reputable architects in Vegas, back from retirement, brings him into the project. The reason I started telling you the story is because we met the guy when

• 8:32Speaker 01

  he was already finishing the project. Yeah. He told us, completely unsolicited, he said, Zoltan is the most, is the most talented architect he's ever worked with in his life. And I said, wait, are you an architect? And Zoltan goes, no. I just, I just understand what works. So he gave him ideas that he never thought about. So like, it's, he just, he has this one of these minds that just understands what works in terms of functionality and outcome. And this is what- That's fascinating. Yeah. And this is why when he started talking about the space- Usually it's a conversation between two guys like dude, I went to that space, I did this thing, oh my god, it was crazy, blew my mind.

• 9:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  But it doesn't usually come from someone like Zoltan, who's like, on the other hand, you know, like, has all these responsibilities and serious stuff and all these businesses riding on his shoulders that he has to make like serious decisions. And somehow it all works. And Zoltan always, if you hang out with Zoltan like just one on one, it always looks like he's just hanging out. Like, there's no, like, there's no effort whatsoever.

• 9:35Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  And I had this moment, I'm, I'm, I'm just gonna do, share this one small anecdote. At this moment, we're sitting with Aaron, the director of the film, again, shout out to Aaron Vanden. We were at Zoltan's show, we went to see Five Finger Death Punch. And we're sitting there and Zoltan is sitting and talking to everybody after the show. Security, other people, like, all this stuff happening, right? And Aaron and Zoltan are sitting and Zoltan is telling him a story. And then later, we spoke to Aaron and it goes like, dude, how does he have time to talk and talk to us? And I go like, I don't know. But I'm like, do you understand that everything around us right now, the arena, the security, the

• 10:18Speaker 01

  everything that is happening right now, this is a machine that he built. Like, the buses here, everything. Now, obviously, there's other people involved and they're obviously, they're doing their jobs and everything, but the mind to put everything together in a way so it's like, it works like this lubricated machine, that's all Zoltan. So somehow he put it together in a way that now you can just sit and enjoy and not worry about too many things. Like I said, he travels with a posse of all black belts in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and a full dojo, just so he gets to also train. So he kind of, he thought of every single-

• 10:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah, how many black belts do you travel with on your tour?

• 10:51Speaker 02

  The last tour, we had seven.

• 10:53Danny Jones?

  Seven of them. And you guys just, what, drop a mat out in the driveway and just-

• 10:57Speaker 02

  I'm carrying my mats and then pretty much I had two video guys, two video guys, both of them black belts, the rigor, light guys, a black belt.

• 11:05Danny Jones?

  And you video the sessions?

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Sometimes, sometimes.

• 11:08Danny Jones?

  That's super helpful.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  So I can train, basically. But that's, that's the case for the last, you know, like nineteen, twenty years. I always had at least one. And as, as we, you know, were progressing and more crew we can afford, everybody I would hire, I would hire people who have a skill set and also martial artists. You can expect more from a person who's a martial artist. It's because martial arts restructure is your mind. You you start thinking differently, right? Because, you know, I started when I was a kid, I was nine years old. And um and it develops rewiring in mind, meaning like it develops a personality that otherwise you wouldn't. And that doesn't mean that you have to start when you're really young, you can start right now. It still will do the same thing, right?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Because there is, there are these moments where, okay, you have to go on the mat and fight this other guy. So what happens there? Procrastination. Can you push this fight back? No, this is happening right now, right? So you have to, you have to accept the inevitable, like this is going to happen right now, you like it or not, comfortable or not. Is this going to happen? So you have to accept those things and if you parallel that to life, right? Things happens and you have to deal with that. Then second, nobody can jump in. This is not a group effort, this is gonna be you and the other guys. So now we're gonna save you, so you have to be responsible for everything that's gonna happen, right? So there's a teaching in that.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  And then as a martial artist, you start to, let's say that the fight starts or the the match starts. And then, you know, you have to figure this out, right? Again, in life, difficult things are happening and you have to figure that. You get caught in uncomfortable situations. And you have to know when to fight your way out or where to happen, fight another day, right? So that's a skill that you will have to understand in life. You know, and and the skill that my natural reaction is to figure out a way, I have to problem solve. When both mentally and physically I'm being pressured, basically. Right, that's it's because it's a human chess game, so it's both mentally and physically intensive, right? And then as you master this, you start to realize that, wait a minute.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  I can also use your motion against you. Right? And so the uncomfortable situation will will will turn into, you know, advantages. And it's the same thing in life. That's what crisis management is. Like you look at a crisis like, wait a minute. I can use this, right? This is maybe a great P R moment when it's looks like a crisis, but I'm gonna turn this around. So you start to see that in martial arts, you know, what we do, it will develop traits in you that you can parallel to your career, to your life, because these are the same things. But most importantly, it becomes a reflex. Like when you have some kind of adversity, I don't think about the adversity, I immediately go to the solution.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  I don't even think about it. So it's that that that element is not there anymore. Like, oh, my God. Right. Oh, my God, what do we do now? That doesn't happen. It's like the situation happens and immediately I I automatically go into a solution and automatically go into how do I use this? Whatever it is that's happening, how do I use it as an advantage? This in it becomes automatic. If you start to live your life that way, it's it's a game now.

• 14:29Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  It's the whole thing is a game. It's a chess game. So life becomes this chess game of of uh basically strategy. And then it becomes fun.

• 14:39Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  And then once you walk on it, once you do it for a while, you walk on a mat, you don't, you're not scared. Doesn't matter how big the other guy is, it's like, okay, he's like three hundred and fifty pounds, can I beat him? Right? I'm not thinking like, oh, my God, I might die. No, it's like, can I beat him? Can it is there a way?

• 14:54Danny Jones?

  How am I gonna beat him?

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Right. See what I mean? And so that becomes your personality.

• 14:58Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  And then that, you know, that I think that's one of the reasons I became successful.

• 15:03Danny Jones?

  Overcoming obstacles.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Because it's, yeah.

• 15:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  And it's it's that's the thing. You um, you know, you're looking at uh

• 15:12Speaker 02

  You're looking at a situation and you look at it, it's a, it's a problem, right?

• 15:19Danny Jones?

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• 16:33Speaker 02

  In life, like, oh, there's a, you know, there's a, there's a problem. I look at it like, oh, it's, it's an obstacle I have to jump over. It's fun.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Yes. Yesterday when we were sitting and having dinner, you asked Zoltan a question that I kind of chuckled at. You asked, what do you do in your, like, what do you, what do you do? Like, what do you do on a day to day?

• 16:52Danny Jones?

  What do you do every day?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:54Danny Jones?

  Like, what's your routine?

• 16:54Speaker 01

  And that's a really funny question if you actually get to hang out with him for a little bit because I've seen, I've seen the switch. So like, yesterday you just experienced like us just talking and exchanging stories and all of that stuff. I saw the switch happen with Zoltan when somebody walked in the room and said something to him. One of these like, you know, in the movie moments where somebody kind of whispers something in his ear, like something happened. And you see like this immediate switch in his face. He goes, he just gets up, he get like, all right, I'll be right back. Walked outside, comes back and something just happened, right? Something, he ju- he just solved some kind of a problem and you never felt it as the guest.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Like he just walked outside, you saw something was going on, somebody asked something, he had to like give input, serious input. He comes back out, hey, and you just continued the conversation of like, whoa, holy shit. So there's like, there's this immediate switch of like, oh, we gotta go into different mode now, okay. The warrior kind of wakes up and you see it in real time. It's very interesting. It's also why I realized that nothing that he does, at least from my interaction with you so far, is unintentional. So when we just sit and hang out, it's like, yeah, that's my free time. I'm gonna talk about whatever is close to my heart and I wanna talk about. But he never does a thing that is unintentional. And because of that, when he told me, okay, he recently just decided to come on my podcast,

• 18:17Speaker 01

  which is not even that huge yet. So there was a very intentional decision. It's like, no, I think this is important to talk about now. Because I never, he never spoke about this publicly ever before, because there was no reason for it. It was just, you know. And now he felt like it's important enough. And I took that also as, well, first of all, as kind of like a checkmark of like, okay, we're on the right path here. But also, there's an understanding that something, even if we don't fully understand what it is, none of us, there's something very major that is going on that needs attention.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  And that attention needs to be put on in the right way, not just, you know, like, I see a lot of people, kind of like in a lot of different communities, from spiritual communities of the awakening, UAP communities, disclosure, the rising of AGI in the tech world. All of these things seem to be like types of crescendos that are arriving. And we're all in some relationship to them, the mapping of the human mind, neural link, all of these things, right? And it seems like, and we, the truth is that none of us actually knows what the, you know, what the real thing is, my discovery. But I don't think it's coincidence. I don't think it's a coincidence. I think all of this is almost like the universe goes like, hey, pay attention.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's end of childhood.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we're, this conversation is gonna get very.

• 19:36Danny Jones?

  Meta, for lack of a better term. And we're gonna talk about a lot of deep philosophical ideas and

• 19:42Speaker 02

  But also impractical things, by the way.

• 19:43Danny Jones?

  Practical stuff, the DMT, I wanna get into the DMT laser stuff. But before we do that, I'm really interested in hearing your origin story. And where you come from, and how you grew up. And how you ended up here.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Origin, so. Like you, Adam and Eve, or?

• 20:02Danny Jones?

  Yes, exactly, the snake in the garden.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  So, so basically, I grew up in Hungary, that was, at the time, it was a communist country. So, so I grew up in Hungary and set out to be a scientist. The communists had this, you know, this idea of separating people into various castes of like, they come to the kindergarten, which by the way, we walked to in the snow when I was, I don't know, four years old, five years old, that's completely normal. The snow is taller than me. And the kindergarten is like three, four miles away and your parents just put you out in the cold. So, all right, kid.

• 20:34Danny Jones?

  Don't die.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  That way, don't get lost and, you know, and then see you later. That's it, that was completely normal. Anyway, so we have a pretty different upbringing, you know, like, here's a spear, you go and fight for your food. You know, it's Sparta. And, and so they come to the schools and they pick out the kids and they're like, okay, you're good at this, we're gonna put you in a special school, you could, you do, good at, let's say, athleticism, and then you go to a school that is specifically for sports. And so they picked me out and they're like, okay, you're math, science, you know, and we're gonna put you in a special school. So I had like two or three math classes every day and that was my jam. I was gonna be a particle scientist, that was, I was interested in a moment I could read the, you know,

• 21:17Speaker 02

  instead of reading, you know, books about cowboys and Indians and everybody did, I'm like, deep down in the tectonic systems of the, of the planet and, you know, and particle science. And that was my jam. And, and then somewhere around, when I was 12 years old, I had a

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Because we're sitting here, so I'm gonna connect this story. I had an out of body experience. I had an accident and at the time I didn't understand what happened, but I definitely, I didn't look at my own body. I hit a truck with my little bicycle. And but I had the sensation of whatever I wanted to look at, wherever I wanted to go, I was just there. And I understood like, whoa, something is bizarre, something is weird. And I, you know, I got up, eventually I sit up, I was in a pool of blood with a circle of people around me. And I just grabbed my bicycle, went home. You know, my mother, it's communist country, you know, that's how it works, like kid, I'm bleeding out of my head. It's a kid, don't get it on the carpet.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  That's it, that's it, you know, you can have a sword sticking out of your head and like, oh, probably you should go to the hospital. But you gotta walk because I'm busy. So, you know, that's pretty much how this this work. And so I went to the library and I started to search. And at the time, the Google search of the times were like you reading the books and then you have footnotes. And you just simply find where the, you know, where those excerpts coming from. So I dug down the path of eventually I found books about life after that. And eventually find Eastern philosophy. So by the time I was like fourteen, fifteen, I was knee deep into Kriya yoga and meditation and, you know, and all that. And so, and I also had issues with science.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  So I had a moment where I was about fifteen, I started to battle my professors about about theoretical math. I disagreed with a lot of things and there are issues of of of practical math and theoretical math. So I had a conflict there while I'm researching and experiencing early days of wasn't psychedelics, so to speak, but I'm down on that path. Yoga meditation, it's a it's a science, breathing techniques, various techniques.

• 23:32Danny Jones?

  Because that seemed to be connected to what you were, the idea that you were searching for with that near death experience you had.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  I I I understood very early the question that while we have, you know, maybe scientists like, you know, Higgs and Einstein and, you know, this is important, this is very important, their work is really important, science is really important. I was gonna be a scientist, but ultimately, the most important question, all these things, science is subservient of the most important question and most important question, what the hell is going on? What's going on? Why are we here, who we are, why? What is this, right? So if you look at science, why we're looking for science? And one way, yeah, we wanna, you know, we wanna make ourselves comfortable. We invent things and build things to make ourself less dependent on physical labor, right? That's one reason for science. Yeah.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  But the ultimate reason is like the explanation of what the hell is happening? And I felt like yoga and, and, and these mental sciences are on the same path. This is, I tried to answer the question, and later in life psychedelics. To me, it's the same exact thing, trying to figure out the ultimate question of what the hell is going on? What is this perception? How am I alive? How am, how am I perceiving? Not even, not even how I'm alive, but just the perception itself. And why? And why are we here? So that's the most important question. And so while I was having clashes with, with, with certain scientific ideas,

• 25:00Speaker 02

  I was also barreling down this path of, of, of yoga and mental sciences and trying to figure this out. And so, and in the same time, I was playing music, which is, you know, I was very interested in music and, and again, as somebody who's scientifically oriented, I started to understand like, wait a minute, music, everything is, is a vibration. And, and as a musician, I'm playing with the source code.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Basically, I am playing with harmonies, melodies and a correlation. And if you think about the whole, the entire universe is basically symatic patterns, right? And so I kind of, I, I understood that, at that age, that, okay, so as a musician, right? I am playing with the source code and also with music, I can affect you as a human. Like, just to give a very short example, you know, I can give you a guitar riff and I put a drum beat to it. I'm gonna make this drum beat a little bit. Shuffled, meaning that the snare will not come mathematically what it's supposed to. It's gonna be a little bit late, barely audible, right? You're gonna, it's gonna give you a feeling that, oh, man, we are cruising.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, this feels good, right? It's, you know, island time, yeah, right?

• 26:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Now, I take the same guitar riff. I'm gonna put a drum beat on it, I quantize it. So it's exactly on time. It's gonna be like, oh, man, let's go to war. Bam bam, it just feels like, let's go. Or I take the same snare and I push it a little bit. Again, it's not really audible, you can only feel it. And so now snare comes a little bit early. I'm giving you anxiety, physically giving you anxiety, right? You're like, oh, go, right? So imagine if I start to just mix those patterns within a song. I give you an anxious verse and I release it in the chorus.

• 26:48Danny Jones?

  Was there a moment you can remember that inspired you to start looking like, start practicing music and learning?

• 26:55Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, there's the obvious issue that music kind of chose you, right? So I don't really have a mo, I was always interested, you know? I wanted to be a guitar player, so couldn't afford it. I got a jigsaw and my parents' coffee table. I'm like, yeah, this looks good, all right? And I just made myself my first unplayable, but very heavy metal guitar, you know? So I, you know, you had to, you had to make, you know, eastern philosophy and eastern life is like what we have and how far we can go with that versus a wish list of what I need to accomplish. So I made my first guitar.

• 27:27Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  I wanted to be a guitar player. I wanted to, you know, I was interested, but I don't have a specific moment that ignited like, oh, yeah, that's what it is.

• 27:36Danny Jones?

  What kind of music were you listening to at that age?

• 27:38Speaker 02

  So I started with the British punk.

• 27:40Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  You know, like was just like the voice of the rebellion in a communist country game, you know? And then eventually switched into heavy metal. And it was a purpose, a purpose was really like, it was not, you know, it was not that it wasn't, wasn't illegal, but it was framed upon, right? So it was like a little kid, what can you do when you're 12 years old? You're not gonna, you know, steal your grandfather's AK that he hid in the Second World War in the backyard. You're not gonna start a revolution. You need some kind of an outlet, like how do I oppose this? The system and, you know, the heavy metal felt like, well, this is the rebellion, you know? So it's, it was also, you know, loaded, so to speak, for me, that was kind of like, oh.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  Of a western culture seeping in and also if you think about rock music was sort of a voice of the rebellion even in the west it was you know it was countering social you know social standards that they disagreed with right so you know so so for me it was both interesting as in playing with the source code understanding that with playing with the source code I can physiologically even affect how you feel

• 28:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah

• 28:47Speaker 02

  and I've just talked about rhythm you know now there are major and minor scales minor scales are sad major scales are happy so I can manipulate how you feel and I thought that's fascinating right then understanding how there is a there's a math involved with music this is these are mathematical correlation and then beyond that it's also geometrical correlations I see patterns on the guitar versus learning a scale I I see patterns

• 29:14Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm

• 29:15Speaker 02

  right so I thought that was amazing and it was a vehicle for rebellion so I'm like oh this is perfect so I was doing that

• 29:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah

• 29:22Speaker 02

  right I'm doing visual art in the same time so I went to school for that too like I have um you know commercial art and design degree and and I'm barreling down on a path of you know yoga and and trying to understand what's happening and and eventually science start to sort of

• 29:42Speaker 02

  phased out of my life like I always gonna have the scientific approach to the things but but it kind of was phased out because I felt like science is a loose explanation a collection of ideas that try to explain what's going on and there's a difference between experiencing what's going on or trying to explain it

• 30:02Danny Jones?

  Right

• 30:02Speaker 02

  right because I you know I I look at it there's there are four kind of people when it you know the reason Danny said that I I finally said like okay you know what I'm gonna step out and I'm gonna start talking about it what we talk about you know the side so the second space I been involved with that for decades there was no reason to talk about it because I it's it's not like I needed the attention And um, and I felt like the world is not ready. Hmm. We're just not there yet to talk about it, but something's changing. There is a end of childhood from a spiritual perspective for this planet.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  People growing up spiritually and um, and the forecast of people, people like there are the flower child. The flower child that we joke around, tree huggers, right? Uh huh. The, the, the modern, the hippies. Yeah. Jump into the place and it's a playground. Hmm. Then there's the explorers. The explorers are people who also jump into the psychologic world, but with a scientific mind trying to explore that there is something more here, something tangible, something real, because our experiences correlate and we can verify that this happened to me, I saw this, did this happen to you, you saw this too. So then we can verify each other's. Yeah. Experiences. So something is real here. Hmm.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Right? Then there is the observers, the scientists who watch this thing. But they wanna stay outside. They more of a, they try to measure and, and figure out without being part of it. Right. And then there are the civilians who have no idea.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  They just. The NPCs. They have no clue that this is happening. I don't know about NPCs, but yeah. Well, yeah, but you know, there's the, different functions, right? Yeah. And I feel like that today we, we arrived to this moment where, you know, when there are enough attention on it and the observer class, the scientists who generally held highly as their scientist are, are getting, take, taking a notice and getting more and more attention going on. That's where also the laser comes in. That's where these tangible things were, okay, something is going on here and then is it not? That our job is to figure out what's going on, our function in life,

• 32:23Speaker 02

  or existence, figure out what's going on. And when this space is opening, even though it takes a substance to get there, but it's a verifiable real, verifiable real, then we need to explore that.

• 32:35Danny Jones?

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• 34:02Danny Jones?

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• 34:19Speaker 02

  And we did that. And then so... Not to make the full arch where I came from growing up in that country and eventually coming here, but.

• 34:26Danny Jones?

  How was, how hard was it to get out of, of there and get to the US? How old were you?

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Took a, took a revolution. I mean, communism had to collapse.

• 34:36Danny Jones?

  There's a lot of history there.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, we didn't have, we didn't have passports. We couldn't go to countries that are western countries. We were completely aware of, you know, a western culture, but we were just not participating. So we were sort of in a, in a, in a pit. Life was, you know, the race cars were going and we were just sitting in a pit watching the race. We were not part of it. So while we were completely aware of western culture and we can A, B the system, right? Oh my God, that's pretty cool. And this sucks.

• 35:01Danny Jones?

  Yeah, right.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  So, so we wanted to get out of there, but you know, there's a minefield, like an actual minefield on the border with trigger happy border patrol. You can't get out and you don't have passports. And, you know, if the system was great, then, then you don't have to lock us in. We would have stayed, obviously. We all wanted to get the hell out of there. And, um, and in eighty nine, it started to cave in. It started in Poland, actually, the dock workers started to strike. That was the first crack in the system. Like, oh, wait a minute, you can track it. And I remember a moment when I was fairly, very young, actually. And, um, we were watching TV and, um, the one TV channel we had, black and white, one TV channel, communist propaganda does not work on Monday, no TV on Monday,

• 35:44Speaker 02

  and stops at midnight. That was life. And so, and I remember that, uh, there is a transportation industry in America was striking. And then, you know, these guys were gleefully like, oh my God, you know, the capitalist system is crumbling, the bourgeois will fall and here the communism will succeed. That was the propaganda on TV. And they were showing how the Americans were at on the street with the little signs. And I'm, look at my dad. I'm like, well, hold on for a second. So in America, I can go on the streets with a sign and yell that I'm not happy and nobody's shooting me. Nobody's arresting me. I don't disappear. That's how that works. I need to get the hell out of here. Right? And the

• 36:26Speaker 02

  bewildering part, like, he didn't understand what I was asking.

• 36:31Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Because they were so, they were born into that fear based system.

• 36:36Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Like they were telling me like, kid, shut up. If we're gonna get arrested, we will disappear.

• 36:41Danny Jones?

  Like hyper normalization for them.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Oh, that was completely normal to them. So they they were broken souls born into this system. They never knew anything else. Right? So they they were that that experiment, the fleas in the jar that can't jump out.

• 36:52Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know if you know that experience. They put fleas in the jar and put a lid on it and they tried to jump out and keep hitting the lid. And after that, you take off the lid and they will never jump out.

• 37:02Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Cause they learned that that's the lid. And so it's kind of like that broken souls that couldn't even imagine. When I was telling to people like, oh, I'm going to America and I'm gonna play rock music. I'm a tour the world. People thought, are you crazy? Like that was ridiculous to them. Like what? You're insane. That's not possible. We don't have passports. That's just not a thing. Right? So. I never had a doubt that I'm gonna do it. And well, obviously it's proven that I did, but you know, but that was basically uh. Growing up there and eighty nine ish when it's uh started to crumble and eventually collapsed. And once we had passports, then it's like everybody's like, okay, let's go.

• 37:42Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:44Danny Jones?

  And then you, you said you spent a lot of time practicing Buddhism with actual monks?

• 37:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:49Danny Jones?

  So. How did that happen?

• 37:50Speaker 02

  So once I was in America, I came here without speaking a word of English. So I I could say like, yeah, beer. That's it.

• 37:57Danny Jones?

  Is it true the Hungarian language is like not connected to any of any of the other languages around that area?

• 38:02Speaker 02

  The closest, yeah, the closest would be Finnish, but we have maybe thirty words, fifty, thirty, forty, fifty words. I don't know that. Rooted in the same, you know, word, but not really. Like, so we basically nomads, like Otilla the Honda first wave, and then the second wave was Arpad. That was his name, Arpad. Uh, the the leader who.

• 38:23Danny Jones?

  Arpod?

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Arpad, yeah.

• 38:24Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Um, so basically it's an. North China, Mongolia, that area. Mm hmm. The nomads were coming over to. Right. To Europe and so that's how the Huns, Hungarians, the Huns came. So we are barbarians, right? And then, you know, they picked that current territory of Hungary as their home base. So maybe not, you know, so the European languages were not connected to that. Right. There is like, probably like twelve, thirteen million Hungarians in the world who speak that language. It's a very different language. Logistically, it's absolutely different. Right. Built, you know, and um, yeah, I didn't speak English. So I had to learn at that, wherever I was, I was staying this place where somebody left a book, Sashank Redemption.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  And I had a Hungarian English dictionary and I translated this book word by word. Wow. Without any understanding of, you know, grammar or anything. So I translated, probably read the book like thirty times because I always started it over because it started to make sense. And I would watch TV, I had a little black and white TV in the room. And I put on the closed caption and I could recognize the words and the pronunciation. Hmm. And once I could understand English, I would live in Barnes and Nobles and Borders and on the bookstores. Because they let me just sit there with a tea, which was the cheapest version. I couldn't afford anything else, right? So I would have a tea and I would sit in Barnes and Nobles and just read.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Just anything I could devour, because I was sudden I have this library of Eastern philosophy, Mesopotamian philosophy. You know, I read Carlos Castaneda's entire, you know, work three times at least, you know. And then all the books that I could never get in, you know, in Hungary. So that was my just devouring that, you know. And, and I was a seeker, so I would seek out yogis and people that I would hear about that could do things allegedly that are superhuman. And then I met people and I saw things that I can verify that, okay, I saw that this happened. This is not in our current set of understanding that what can physically happen. Right?

• 40:37Speaker 02

  So I would, I would go and, and meditate and, and then I found this Sri Lankan monks that I spent a lot of times with, you know. So that was parallel to everything else I was doing.

• 40:51Danny Jones?

  That's fascinating. Yeah, and you, last night, we were talking about the monk who lit himself on fire during that protest.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Dick Montauk, yeah.

• 40:58Danny Jones?

  Yes, in Vietnam. And you were saying that that was a recruiting call. That was not sort of a protest based on the gasoline exports or anything like that.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  So if you, if you, if you understand, you know, if you understand the way they think, the Buddhist monks, and it's very, very similar to the, the shamans or the men of knowledge, so to speak.

• 41:17Danny Jones?

  Can you pull up that photo, Steve?

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Of, you know, Mesoamerican history, right? When the Spaniards came and, and what happened there, they have a very similar, way they relate to, to oppression. Because, you know, the smooth seas want to make great sailors, sort of idea.

• 41:36Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  That spiritual or, or physical oppression will lead to your most rapid development as a person, right? And so if you, if you, if you know that they understand that concept, right? If you know that, understand that concept, then you know that they're not going to get involved in, in political, the motivation is not political. And if you read the Dharma part or you, and any of the teachings, right? It's always that the meaning of those teachings is, is dynamic. It's, it's almost like, you will understand what you're capable of understanding at the moment. And you read that same thing a couple of years from now and it will mean something else.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  And that's the brilliance of that, right? And so there are so many of these teachings and these anecdotes that you read it and it might, mean one thing and then later you realize like, oh, there was a, that's just a seed and there are some amazing things in there.

• 42:33Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  So if you understand how they think and how they operate, then, then you know that it's, um, that there's a different motivation. So, so things that, what, what you see on face value is usually not what it is. Right? And, and that particular picture that we're talking about, you know, it, it's, to me, that was a light tower moment. What I call a light tower moment is when, when you look at something and on face value, this is a political protest. And as a, as a political protest, this, this picture was one of the most favorite picture, most famous picture in, in, in the time. I think it's 1962 when this happens.

• 43:11Danny Jones?

  Can you find out, Steve?

• 43:13Speaker 02

  I think 62.

• 43:14Danny Jones?

  Pull up like the Wikipedia page about it.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  And and so, you know, so this triggered this this this major event of, you know, human rights and and so so so the picture was published everywhere and it was a very well-known picture because how the world related to this, like the shocking element of like, you see this monk Yeah. motionless. Fuck. Right? Just burning to the absolute most horrible death without flinching. Yeah. Kwon Dook, yeah, I think Kwon Dook, right? Nineteen Nineteen sixty-three, June eleventh. Okay, there you go. So sixty-three, so Kennedy was president, right? Go back, Steve. I want to read that again. Well, sixty-three, so I think Kennedy was president at the time. In June, yeah, he was still president, yeah. Right.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  So so this picture, this moment, right? Because of of the nature of the picture, because because how shocking that is, right? This became sort of a and and even if you read Wikipedia, it's probably still to this day going to relate to why this happened as a political event. Hmm. Right? And again, go back to how monks and how the how these guys actually think and operate. If you intimately understand that, then then you know that this is the face value, but there is more to this. And what I meant my light tower moment, that this was a perfect vehicle for the whole

• 44:45Speaker 02

  world to see this, because this picture was everywhere. Yeah. And some of us, a small percent, but some of us saw this picture, and my question wasn't political. My question is like, hold on for a second. If this monk can sit there, burn to death without a blink of an eye, whatever power this human attained, I need to know and obtain.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  That's, that's incredible, right? So some of us looked at it like, oh, I need to, I need to investigate this. I need to get into meditation, Buddhism, da, da, da, da, da, right? Because I need to understand, this is, this is superhuman.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Right? So, so it's a light tower moment because I wasn't the only one who thought of this. A pretty large amount of people saw it as, most of the people saw it as a political issue.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  But a, a pretty large amount of people also saw it as I saw it, like, hold on for a second. How is this possible?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  There's a miracle is happening right there. A miracle is happening right in front of us. If this monk came out and says, check it out, guys, I'm gonna light myself on fire. I'm gonna perform a miracle. Nobody would have believed him. Everybody would question like, oh, maybe there was some kind of an ointment or.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Everybody would have questioned that this is real. But because it was sort of, uh, uh, um, presented as a political thing. It just kind of went through the system without being questioned. But those of us who see the world differently, those of us saw, uh, superhuman powers. But if this is humanly possible, I need to know how.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  I need to know how to calm my mind and how to put myself in that position.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  That I can do this. And now if you think about it, at the time Buddhism was kind of getting eradicated and, and the knowledge that these guys were, were, you know, the libraries were burnt and the, the knowledge that they obtained and, and, and put in libraries were being eradicated. So this picture probably recruited more people to Buddhism and to this path. And I don't even like to use the word Buddhism because it's an ism. But more people was recruited for this path than probably anything else they could have done.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  Right?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Because even though there is a small percent of people who saw it as, as, as an incredible human feat, right? That's still a huge number because the whole planet was exposed to this picture.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Hmm. Can't even imagine being there watching in real time. It's just.

• 47:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I think there's video, there's video of it and it's cra- it's fucking insane.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  I keep trying to imagine what it's like to like stand there.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  The immolation, that's the, the name of the pictures, the immolation.

• 47:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  And, you know, and again, right there, you see something that is humanly should not be possible.

• 47:28Danny Jones?

  No.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Human should not, so, so right there, this is, this picture should trigger you.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  And start you know pad that I need to know this. This is, this is, this is absolute control. Like this is when, when your mind has full control. And, and that is the point of, of, of meditation, that is the point of the whole path that you attain that power. When you, you know, you have this incredible computer in, in your, in your head, right?

• 48:01Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  This, this mind of us, right? And then, and, and the train of thought never stops. So this is a constant, you know, there's always moving, right?

• 48:09Danny Jones?

  Steve, don't, you, you can play it for us, but don't show it um on the actual podcast, cause it'll get us fricking.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Copy.

• 48:16Danny Jones?

  No, not copy written, but it'll get, it'll get banned. No, this isn't the same thing, is it? This is different.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  No, this is it.

• 48:21Danny Jones?

  This is really it?

• 48:22Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 48:23Danny Jones?

  This is the same guy.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  There were a couple of more, so this wasn't the only one. It's put, it could be a movie or, or there were a couple of more, so this was.

• 48:31Danny Jones?

  I thought he did it to himself on the original one.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  He did, yeah.

• 48:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  He put, put the, you know, I mean, his students were there, but.

• 48:36Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  So.

• 48:37Danny Jones?

  Oh, he's, those were his students?

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, around him, yes.

• 48:40Danny Jones?

  Oh shit, I didn't even realize that.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, you know, ultimately, the, the point of meditation that you have this, this train of thought completely uncultivated, running free. Right? And there's this idea of mindfulness. If you at all time, you're completely conscious of what your mind is doing. Think about it, you drive home and I ask you like, what did you see on the way home? What roads you took? I probably don't remember. You just autopilot home, right?

• 49:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  So that means like, that's a simple proof of you were like, took your half an hour, let's say to drive home. For a half an hour, you were not completely conscious of where your mind was and what it was doing. Or you're saying like, hey, you know what? This, this idea popped in my mind. Well, I didn't just pop in your mind. Something triggered that idea. You saw something, something triggered it. And before this idea popped in your mind, your mind was doing something else. And you're not aware of what it was doing. So that the ultimate way of existence is that you're at all times completely and fully aware of what your mind is doing and thinking. And you're in control of that. Could, can you be depressed if you can't, if you're in control? No. Can you have a suicidal thought? No. Can you, you know, can you have crazy thoughts? No, you're in control.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  And so we are not fully in control with our mind. And so the point of that meditation and what this take one do achieved is that absolute control.

• 50:06Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  So that is that picture right there has so many things in there.

• 50:14Danny Jones?

  It's like a fractal.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's so many things in there, like you see a man in absolute control of his body and his mind.

• 50:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  And it seems superhuman.

• 50:23Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  There's a lot packed in there.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  And so some of us saw that as a light tower. That's why I call it the light tower event, even when you see this and you go, okay, I need to understand this, I need to learn this, I need to, I need to be barreling down that road, that path.

• 50:45Danny Jones?

  And how, so when you started practicing this and, and learning more about it, you mentioned last night that there's, um, there's something, something you can achieve, like a certain level you can achieve in the practice of this stuff and of this meditation where you can basically like tap in to this, for lack of a better term, D M T state automatically, like by the flip of a switch?

• 51:09Speaker 02

  Yes, it, it's a, you know, there's a, there's a, so there, that's, yoga is a science and there's, there's a physical elements with how the, you know, the Kundalini, which is basically a spinal fluid moves up on your spine and how it, it triggers certain things. But, but so there's a, there is an actual physical exercise, but you know, yoga has seven different paths and there's Kriya yoga and there's various forms, but it all goes to the same spot, right? You have, um, you have a narrator, right? And this narrator is basically explaining to you the world as you're moving around or, you know, it's like, did I close the garage door? That's technically a voice in your head.

• 51:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  Okay. So if the voice in your head is talking to you, that is bound by, it's, it's, it's in a prison of the language. That voice will never say anything to you that's not been already spoken, invented.

• 52:03Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Because it is using a language. And it's you're a prisoner of that language that you're speaking. Because everything, and so this voice will talk to you in that language. That's, that's one issue. There are other issue that we have a built in automatic filter. An automatic filter is that you have the, the basing oper- the base operating system is the survival of the individual, then the survival of species and so forth, so on. And there is a hierarchy of what's important, right? And so the most important part is you to survive. That's the, that's the, the red telephone of like, hey, you're in danger, run or fight. Right? So there are those things, but in everything else, there is like, almost like there's an equalizer and what's important, what's not important. So let's say you're sitting in an airport and there's a million people talking.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  You don't hear anything, just noise. And now somebody's gonna say the word podcast. You'll hear that word. Because it's important to you. Right? But you didn't hear any of the other words. Right? If you bought a new car, you'd start driving it around and you start noticing, man, everybody has a car. Well, the number of those cars didn't change. It just wasn't important to you. So, so what, what it means that your mind actually deletes information that is seemingly not important to you. Right? You perceived it, but it deletes it.

• 53:18Danny Jones?

  Save energy, right?

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Correct. And it's just a lot of data.

• 53:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  It, it finds it not important. Now, he- here's, here's a problem. So you have two elements here. One, the voice that's processes, processing everything is, is in English for you, right? So, so you're prisoner of that language and the boundaries of the language. And then there's also a filtration system that you're not even aware of. You don't even know what was deleted. You drove home and a lot of things happened that you didn't see. Because you saw it, I shouldn't say you didn't see. You saw it, but you didn't register it.

• 53:52Danny Jones?

  It's like I noticed sometime is like if you're there's if there's ever like a route you are used to driving like on a daily routine and you're driving from here to there, whatever. And then one day you decide to walk the same route. All of a sudden, it's a whole new world.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:05Danny Jones?

  Like, I never saw this building here before. You know what I mean?

• 54:08Speaker 02

  Now, the question there is that, okay. So I have the filtration system that takes out the information that might have been important, but I did notice. Right? And everything that is described to me, my mind is kind of speaking to me in English. How do I get out of this? And that is the science of yoga, that is the meditation. Let's get out of the filter. Let's get ahead of the filter.

• 54:30Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  And let's do non-verbal communication versus verbal communication. Right? And a way I could prove that to you, I could point at certain things in this room. And if I ask you to tell me what I'm pointing at, right? Literally, we can do that. So go for it.

• 54:46Danny Jones?

  Microphone. Danny. Cup.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  So what's gonna happen?

• 54:51Danny Jones?

  Too much.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  I'm gonna outrun you, right?

• 54:53Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  Okay, you still saw what I point at and you knew what it was, but you didn't have time to formulate the word.

• 54:59Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Right? Because that takes a microsecond. You have to reach in to the library, grab the word. Your hard drive has a speed, right? And but your attention moved faster. So so your attention moved faster than your language could possibly move. So is it possible to see and perceive things faster than you can formulate the word? Yes. And you knew what I was showing, I was showing. You perceived it, you just couldn't say the word, right? So with that, imagine if you meditate and your your language, you know, like your mind is speaking to you. That whole idea to outrun that. You can't engage.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  You have to kind of like do a Mayweather boxing style, like you're just you're just stepping away from the punches. You're it's trying to talk to you and you're stepping away. It becomes a game of the mind is trying to talk to you and you're not engaging. And eventually you achieve that silence when it stops talking. Right? And then the first step of spiritual realization is a self-realization when when you have this moment, when you realize that the witness, you're watching, you're the witness. And you're watching your mind trying to talk to you. And then I was on this moment of hold on for a second. If I'm watching my mind, then I'm not the mind and who am I?

• 56:24Speaker 02

  And that's a very profound moment of one of the major steps in spiritual, you know, processes when you realize that like, whoa, I can watch my own mind and processes from a different perspective than who is the watcher?

• 56:40Danny Jones?

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• 57:25Danny Jones?

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• 58:02Speaker 02

  Right. Right. And so these are the two, so that's one step. Like I, I was ahead of the language.

• 58:10Danny Jones?

  Separating yourself from your mind.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Yes. And I was other than, and then so there are techniques. There are physical techniques, there are mental techniques, you know, the mantras, law songs or mandalas, very complicated pictures that you look at. There's various techniques and tools that, you know, that various people use to achieve this. But you can play piano or do jiu-jitsu. Because you're not thinking, why are you doing Jiu Jitsu or you're playing guitar? I'm not thinking like, did I left the stove on?

• 58:37Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  My mind is kind of in a flow state.

• 58:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  So that can be also meditation. That's kind of the base of tantric meditation, tantric Buddhism, or anything can be your meditation, as long as your mind shuts up, as long as not.

• 58:49Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Right. So that's one. Second is that getting ahead of that filter, getting into that mindset when you perceive all, and you get to decide what's important versus the routine of you drove home, you don't even remember, right? The filter was done. If I didn't tell you to watch the red cars, you don't know how many there were. But when I told you, watch the red cars, now you're there, right? So we are in charge with that.

• 59:19Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  So these are all practices. And then comes psychedelics.

• 59:26Danny Jones?

  So how, how do you, without psychedelics, turn that filter off?

• 59:30Speaker 02

  That's basically the process of meditation. The first step of the process is stopping the language.

• 59:36Danny Jones?

  The language first?

• 59:37Speaker 02

  The language first.

• 59:38Danny Jones?

  Okay, so that's part of it.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:40Danny Jones?

  Okay, I understand.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Because once the language is there, right? Then your communication is verbal. Now you're inside the box. Now you, you know, now you can't... Well, and here's the thing, like about composing music, painting pictures, right?

• 1:00:00Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  Um, doing any sculpture, I'm gonna give you a really good example with that, because you can't make mistakes there. So, okay, so if I, you know, if like, everything, I see the view that everything is possible. And what I'm talking about, everything is possible, is there's a potential. How to make a light bulb work? That that potential was the same a billion years ago than it is now. We just didn't have the technology or the need or the, you know. But how it works is the same. If time travel exists, that exists right now. We don't know how to do it. That doesn't mean that there's no answer to that. There's a way to do that.

• 1:00:41Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  If we need, you know, nuclear fusion on a room temperature, if it's possible, it's possible right now. We just don't know how to do it, but it's possible, right? And it's the same thing with art, sculptures, painting, music, right? All that. So I'm not really...

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Inventing anything, I'm just reaching and more like discovering. Or I just bring something into this space and manifest it, right? And I would say this exercise of like if I give you a pencil, I'll say, okay, draw a straight line, you can execute that. Draw a circle, you can execute that as perfect as you can. Okay, a triangle, square, a sine wave.

• 1:01:24Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  Okay, shine wave, everything, okay, cool. Mona Lisa, draw the Mona Lisa. Everything that needed for that, you executed. You, all the elements that it's made of, you executed and I can see that you have full control over the pencil.

• 1:01:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Right? And so there should not be a problem to draw anything, to paint anything, right? And what that is, it's, it's about you getting into this flow state, making that connection with the potential.

• 1:02:01Danny Jones?

  Like the muse.

• 1:02:02Speaker 02

  Creating a bridge, right? And holding that vision, like you're not painting the Mona Lisa. And it would be to the most obvious when you're making a sculpture. When you're making a sculpture, if you made a mistake, that piece of stone is gone. You can't glue that back.

• 1:02:18Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  Okay, so you have to have a full vision of what you're about to do. Right? And so that is the process, like getting into those flow states when you can create this bridge. And the reason I'm bringing this example, because that's kind of what happens in meditation, right? That I'm, I'm getting to this flow state when I have a bridge to the ultimate potential. And I'm just giving you the example of how it happens when I compose music. I have to hear all the instruments in my head to write the song. I have to be able to do that. I have to create that bridge. If I'm making a sculpture, I have to see that sculpture in my head and hold that vision in order to make that.

• 1:03:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  So I'm copying what's in my mind and what's in my mind is not mine.

• 1:03:04Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  Right? So I created the bridge. I am making a sculpture. I can't make a mistake because I hit the wrong, I chip the wrong thing. It's no longer gonna be possible to make this sculpture. And so that's the, that's the thing that you're trying to strengthen in meditation. Like, how do I make my connection to this universal soup of consciousness as solid as possible?

• 1:03:29Danny Jones?

  Have you ever heard of the book called, I think it's called The War of Art by a guy named Steven Pressfield?

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Art of War, yes.

• 1:03:35Danny Jones?

  Art of War, yeah, of course you've heard of that one. There's another one called The War of Art. He's a guy named Steven Pressfield. He's a writer. And he talks about the idea of tapping into this muse, which is similar to what your idea is of universal consciousness. Where like he, every day, he basically follows the same protocol where whether he feels like it or not, he sits down at his desk at the same time every day and forces himself to write for an hour, two hours, three hours, whatever it is. And he says, sometimes he doesn't want to fucking do it. It's the last thing he wants to do, but he forces himself to just start fucking writing for the first hour. And then eventually with no distractions, locked in a room with just his pen and paper, the muse will start flowing through him and take over, right?

• 1:04:20Danny Jones?

  And then this, this, this creativity, this magic will start flowing through his hand.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  So what he is doing, I could equate that to, well, that's meditation. That is the process, right? So, so the difference, I guess, is that we are very specific. When I'm talking about, the reason I use, let's say, the, an idea was sculpture because it's so permanent. If I made a mistake, that's a permanent mistake. Not even like drawing, but I can use an eraser. That, that piece of stone was chipped off of that rock, it's gone, you know?

• 1:04:50Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  So that demonstrates like how strong your vision has to be. And I can also parallel that to your, your life because that's just, that's just what I do as an artist. But I do the same thing with my life. So when we talked about like, okay, you do all these things. Well, that's how it happens. I wanted to race monster truck. Okay, I'm gonna race monster trucks. I wanted to work for the space industry. I have worked for the space industry for years. Right? I wanted to be a musician. Yes, I am a musician.

• 1:05:18Danny Jones?

  You work for the fucking space industry?

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Jesus Christ. Doing what? We can't just gloss over this.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  He was a guitar player for the space.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  We were explaining with zero G guitar solos.

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  No, it's like, look.

• 1:05:34Danny Jones?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  It started with not to take a big side road there, but yeah, for a few years I was a consultant for the space industry. I have been in a conversation with Anusha Ansari was up on the, you know.

• 1:05:46Danny Jones?

  With who?

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Anusha Ansari, she's an Iranian astronaut, basically.

• 1:05:51Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  And she was on a space station. We were on the phone while I'm on a tour bus. My band is hanging from the chandeliers, throwing bananas at each other and I started screaming at them like, guys, shut the fuck up. I have fourteen minutes to be on this phone call because then it's out of.

• 1:06:07Danny Jones?

  Oh, my.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Everybody looked at me like, what?

• 1:06:11Danny Jones?

  Why did they want you to consult with the space astronauts?

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Okay, I designed her space suit and her mission patch and all that. So I was a designer originally that I was doing, you know, 3D movies and the shorts. You know, the story to compress the story started with, you know, scientists were and, you know, engineers were looking at, looking for somebody who can make their visions into 3D animations so they can build certain things or get funding for certain things. So that's where it started. Then a friend of mine who was working on a flying, flying car, which eventually became a flying motorcycle, which flew and in the Smithsonian Museum, came to me like, hey, can you help me engineer or, you know, at least do the, the, the representation 3D movies of this?

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  And I do have understanding on engineering, so I started to build this thing for them. And I'm like, okay, this is not gonna work. Right? Like, I, I can see this not gonna work. How about move this here, move that there? So did some modification and that made it patentable. Right, so I'm one of the inventors on the flying, you know, motorcycle. And we got the patent and it flew and all that. So that was the origin of this and then, and then eventually kind of sucked me into that world because they needed somebody who has the, the design abilities. Right, I could do 3D animation and all that. I can design all kind of stuff. And the understanding of, of engineering. So I'm not gonna do something crazy that's something unfeasible. So that's how I kind of got built in.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  And then I also did user interface design for various, you know, electronics and whatnot. It just means like if you pick up your phone, if you think about how it works, it's already wrong. I have to be able to guide you. I have to give you a user interface that, that is obvious. That's the magic, that you should not be thinking about how to use a VCR. It should be obvious. Right, to, to give you an example, you know, the arrows, it's pretty obvious. Probably ancient times, if you, you know, draw an arrow, you kind of know, like, look that way or go that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where, where, you know, let's say a, a stop sign is learned. Yes. A stop sign is, the color red is, is, is ancient because you will recognize color red warning.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Right, so that's sort of a, it's, it's in our genetic history now. But the stop sign itself, the shape of it, is learned. So there's a science of what is learned and what is, you know, for example, something in between. If you, if you look at poster, if somebody is looking to the, you know, this way or that way on a poster. Right, if you're looking in this way, right, then it feels like you're looking to the future. Because of the motion of the clock. If you look the other way on a poster, it feels like you're looking back to the past. And these subliminal stuff that, you know, that's just there. And some of them is learned, some of them is, is inherited almost genetically.

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  Like how the birds know which, you know, which, uh, a snake is poisonous. They have one, one trial. They can't get it wrong once, right? So, so if that was the case, all birds would be dead by now, right, by chance, right? So somehow the birds know which snake not to mess with, right? Right. So there's a genetic history. So, so a good user interface designer knows this, that what are the things that are naturally, you know? Almost a genetic history and what are the things that our society taught you?

• 1:09:30Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  And how much of that you can use?

• 1:09:32Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  And so anyway, so I was involved in that.

• 1:09:34Danny Jones?

  So you helped design the spaceship, the space suit?

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, well, just that's just a design. That's like, it's almost fashion. It's not like, yeah, yeah, no.

• 1:09:41Danny Jones?

  Not like the functional.

• 1:09:42Speaker 02

  No, no, not the functionality, but you know, but I was involved with a lot of stuff that um, that more technical. But I'm not a airframe engineer. I work with them, but I'm not, you know. So anyway, but I was a consultant for them for various things and.

• 1:09:59Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  I think I just, I think I just. I think I just realized something about you. So in terms of meditation, the way I see it is you basically learn how to uh, quiet your immediate field to get access to the bigger field where there's more information.

• 1:10:12Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  And most people are just like in the immediate instance, constantly splashing the pond of their immediate field. They're like all the time.

• 1:10:20Danny Jones?

  Like the stuff that's right in front of them.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Right in front of them. So then it's the, that's the immediate language you interact with, the words you say. That's why everybody sounds so repetitive all the time. And because you're constantly excited, that's where you believe the boundaries are. That's my mind. But if you learn different forms of meditation, what you learn is to, every time it tries to get excited, it's like asking you, it's like, hey, excite me again. And usually you just tap, right? But then you learn to not tap. You just wait. And then eventually it quiets enough. And you start seeing the further parts of the mind where there's like more interconnected information. And it's actually easier to acquire some form of genius in a lot of different things. Because you all of a sudden see, oh, oh, I didn't realize that's like connected. Oh. Then you start like connecting all these things.

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  And essentially the ultimate path, the Buddhist path is to stay not excited forever. Basically till, till the moment that the full dissolution of the form just happens.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  But the degree to which you can do that, that's the degree to which you, how far you can see into the mind space, so to speak.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  Well, you create or recreate, meaning, what do you mean by that? Meaning that, you know, like uh, you, you, if you're on a human plate plane, we have a language, we use all the same words, same phrases, same. And I'm looking around and I take things and I combine them and I recreate, regurgitate, recycle things that already are here. Versus if I can get beyond that, if I can shut down my language center, if I shut down the chatter, right? And then I also manage to. Even the filter system, the filtration, which basically what we travel to this space is what some of these psychedelics do is is just jump over that.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  Take a shortcut.

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  Shortcut boom, you just ride that.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  It just shoots you through that, yeah.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, so so technically a little bit of a cheat, but you know, we we jump over that, but you you end up in the same space where, okay, I'm not bound by the language and I'm not bound by, you know, by the filter system. So I will suddenly have access to things that still you didn't create it because you just bring over the potential. You know, you just bring over what can be, but but you're outside of this regurgitated sort of recycled human space. You're not reusing existing stuff. You have a space now to bring things over and have original thoughts. I'm doing it in an air quote because, you know, it's just my personal belief that you're just an antenna, right? And

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  But let's say you bring it for the first time here.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  But yeah.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  That's the innovation.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  Manifested, meaning like, you know, we're living in this three dimensional universe that we accepted as a agreed upon reality. And and by having these meat puppets, these exoskeletons of of of meat puppets, I guess I can call it, that can interact with this perceived physical world, I can create things. That sculpture exists because it was somebody's idea. And then that was a non tangible, just an idea. It's energy, sure, but it was non tangible, right? So that was an idea. We we could argue about it like, you know, what what an idea is.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, that's a good question.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  What is an idea? It's energy, but yeah, but it's a conscious energy. So so that was first and then somebody through the exoskeleton that we can control, the meat puppet, were physically capable of bringing that into this world, the same way that I need this body and an instrument to create a guitar piece or or music, right? But but the idea, the melodies and all those things, the idea itself.

• 1:13:57Speaker 02

  We could argue about what that is and where it is from. You know, my, my, my personal belief that is the number of beings in the universe is one. There's one field of consciousness and we have a capacity to capture some of it.

• 1:14:09Danny Jones?

  Yeah, can you explain? I thought it was fascinating how you explained last night you had the cup and you were explaining there's a lid on the cup.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:14:17Danny Jones?

  And through these practices, whether it be meditation or whether it be smoking D M T, you can basically lift up the lid a little bit.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:14:26Danny Jones?

  And access that stream of consciousness or poke your head up above the water.

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:14:30Danny Jones?

  And um, you explained, I guess you had one experience with like five M E O D M T where the lid just flew away.

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  So yeah, basically it's a, it's the thing about a jar has a, you know, has a top and you know, we, we can, so you're compartmentalized. You contain and you have access to a certain amount of processing power.

• 1:14:51Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  Right? So, so processing power, meaning there's a general field of consciousness. You can call it the phenomenon, you can call it God, you can call it whatever, but it's just one giant consciousness. And, and that's all there is, right? And then we, uh, as these beings have a certain capacity to, to capture a certain amount of that. So we have a capacity to, to contain or use or channel a certain amount of this energy or this conscious energy. And um, and so basically that was the idea, like, you know, like you, you are the container. We have these physical bodies at least perceived, right? And you know, and I put my hand on the cup and look at that's all you got.

• 1:15:32Speaker 02

  And then certain meditation techniques or psychedelics start to create some cracks on that cup. So now all of a sudden you are connected to this universal consciousness. And, and if I was to take my, you know, hand off that cup, then you are connected. So, so somehow you, almost like you, you, you delete the membrane.

• 1:15:53Danny Jones?

  Can you fill the cup up more and retain some of that and save some of it?

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  You could look, grow your capacity. So you grow your capacity of, of how much of that you can access on channel or, or contain.

• 1:16:11Danny Jones?

  Kind of like building a muscle.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  You're growing the cup.

• 1:16:14Speaker 02

  Growing the cup.

• 1:16:14Danny Jones?

  Growing the cup.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you have a, you know, and again, this is, we're talking about something that we are using a language that these words and these concepts were not, concepts were not really used or often used. Right? So basically we're forcing ourselves to describe certain things that, you know, there are not really words and concept for.

• 1:16:40Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so we're using a very rudimentary tool. When we, when we talk about these things, that's why it's amazing when, you know, when we, when we go into the space and we can talk about things, we both describe using language, we describe certain things that we saw or happened or experienced, right? And, and that's the amazing part that, you know, we,

• 1:17:05Speaker 02

  we're giving you an eight bit version of, you know, a 256 bit experience, kind of, right? So it's like, it's a, you know, it's a crypto punk of what actually happened, right? So, so that's generally the, the issue that when we're talking about these things, I'm using words and concepts that I'm kind of forcing.

• 1:17:25Danny Jones?

  They don't do it justice.

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, they don't. But, but for the lack of a better explanation, or, you know, I could say that, that the point is to crack that lid open or take that lid off and, you know. The worst part of actually coming back from the space is understanding like I'm getting dumber.

• 1:17:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's what you were saying.

• 1:17:45Speaker 02

  Right. Like I feel it like, man, I understand everything. I'm right here. And then you have to come back and then you're getting dumber by the second.

• 1:17:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  Because as you're losing that, that connection or you're losing that access is like.

• 1:17:57Danny Jones?

  Well, I, I've never met anybody dumb who's done a lot of DMT.

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:18:01Danny Jones?

  Everybody I've ever talked to who does a lot of DMT, they're super fucking smart.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Right. Well, it's a relative. I'm dumb compared to what, you know, and it's, it's one of those things.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  But, but I think in general with the all contemplative practices from meditation to psychedelics, any seeking beyond the immediate space that we're familiar with. The best part of it is the practice. Like the difference, the main difference between the eastern way of doing things and the western way of doing things is then the eastern way of doing things, the emphasis is fully on the practice and the experience of it versus the theory and the stuff that you believe about it, right? The dogma, whatever it is.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  You might believe all the stuff about Jesus, but be nothing like Jesus.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  And you might believe nothing about Jesus, but be exactly like Jesus. Just by understanding certain things about life, about experience. And the point of, you know, well, in Vipassana, for example, the main, the main point is to keep your lid open as long as you possibly can, and you don't resist and you don't push. And then what you watch happening is that all these little wiggles that trying to convince you that something is important right now. Eventually, when enough time passes and that thing expresses itself fully, you realize it wasn't. And then there's only so many times this can happen to you before you realize, oh.

• 1:19:22Speaker 02

  Wait, say that again, all the little wiggles?

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the little wiggles, what I mean is that all these little things, that all the little convictions you have of like what you quote unquote must do right now, right? You're like, you sit there, we can make it specific, you sit there, you just basically, you know, you scan your body in a particular way. You're trying to do that and thoughts constantly interrupt, right? Like, oh, I gotta itch this place. So that's a, that's a simple one, right? Everybody familiar with that. Okay, well, what happens if you don't itch? So the conviction, in the immediate moment, the mind goes like, oh, the world's like, I gotta itch. Like that's not a what if, like, no, we gotta itch right now, okay? And then you practice, like, okay, well, then let's stay five more seconds. And then you wait. And then eventually that itch goes away, like it never existed.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  And that feeling of complete conviction that you have to itch goes away with it. So this, so this sounds like, oh, that was just like an itch. Well, everything's like this. The thought of like, oh, whoa, I gotta call this person right now. Cause I don't know, like, they're gonna get upset or like all these stories you have, right? Okay.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  I mean, listen, if it's important and you know, they need to get in your house to fix something. Okay, I get it, but you don't need to panic about it. But usually, most things are not as important as we believe they are.

• 1:20:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  And the point is that the stress that is created in our bodies because we are convinced that we have to do X or Y are actually a much bigger problem than any X or Y. So basically, what you practice is, how do you let things go, literally? Not in terms of, how do you not push, not pull? If something is pleasant, how do you not get attached to it like, oh, I want more of that? Or if something unpleasant happens, how do you not immediately recoil and try and push it away versus like, hey, you can fix it if it's uncomfortable, but you don't need to like freak out about it. It's like, okay, how do I just stay with it for a second? That's really the main practice. Now, from that, from that simple practice, you start understanding that really it's the concentric circles, the fractal of life.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Everything is like this. So when you try and get to like a solution to something complicated, under pressure, you can be more or less successful in it, but you will for sure be more successful in it more, more of the times if you can have a more quiet mind. A mind that is not constantly trying to compete with a million ideas of what's important, what's not important. If you know how to quiet that pond, the right ideas find you immediately. It's like, it's almost like as obvious as I just gotta pick up this cup versus all these competitions that happens in your mind. So I think that ultimately, when you're looking at all the practices, meditative practices and the psychedelics, the lead part is just the realization that your immediate space is not everything.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  And most of the time, you don't have to make as much effort to achieve things as you think you do. It's more of just your neurosis, I never know how to pronounce that word. How do you say, how do you say that word?

• 1:22:23Danny Jones?

  What, what is the word?

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Neurosis?

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  Neurosis.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Neurosis, there you go, there, neurosis.

• 1:22:29Speaker 02

  The Hungarian guy is.

• 1:22:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's the Hungarian guy.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, correctly. Neurosis. So your neurosis is basically the thing that really convinces you that something is wrong, when in reality, you could have just relaxed and not say anything. So, this is like, this is actually a perfect example right now, right?

• 1:22:47Danny Jones?

  So it's making you like, basically, this is, basically you're comparing something like myopia of the mind to.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Perfect example.

• 1:22:55Danny Jones?

  Seeing the forest for the trees.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  I was, I just want to say, this was super interesting for me. I'm watching you guys talk, and every single thing you guys are saying is so fascinating to me, and I'm like, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I have, like, I want to, I want to say this thing about it, right? And then I was like, okay, but then you just wait a second, and then, oh, it was, it was expressed. I was like, oh, perfect. But, but imagine how much this happens in life, right? Were you just like, kind of like, oh, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta do this? I was like, well, what was your goal? Your goal was that, that idea would be expressed? Well, it was just expressed. So don't worry about it.

• 1:23:30Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, just relax, just relax. But that is very difficult to do, because we always want the, the, the self-expression, and we want to, in some, in some way to, existence is already implying you there, and if you can be comfortable with not being implied, the degree to which you can be comfortable with not being implied, is the exact degree to which you're free.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  Because if you're okay, if it would be completely to dissolve into the background, that's essentially nirvana. You just, it doesn't matter, you just kind of float there. Now, given that's a, that's a very difficult thing to achieve, because, you know, but that's really, that, that is the ultimate seed of the ultimate path, where there's really, you can enjoy whatever happens, and you can, you know, you can go through very difficult times when they do happen, but this, the extra suffering on top of it, with all the inner struggle of the mind, doesn't actually have to be there, and you can just let it go.

• 1:24:32Danny Jones?

  It, it almost, it seems so counterintuitive to the way civilization is going, right? Because like, everything we do, like, everyone is just in such a rush to get shit done, you know? And it's like.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  And to what, to what end?

• 1:24:45Danny Jones?

  That's what makes technology advance, that's what makes things more convenient, that's what makes more money. And like, that's what's pushed our society so far, like to where it is now, to where we literally have self-driving cars and headsets where you can fucking fuck other people across the world on and like, all this crazy shit.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  But that's a great example, like in a company, there's never, even when they say, uh, uh, you know, they have an upward-driven trend, right? But when, like, a company cannot stand the idea that there's a downwards trend of some sort. Like, there's a flux in everything, right? So if over twenty years, the company always makes money, but some years it goes a little down. The year that it goes a little down, everybody are losing their minds.

• 1:25:32Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Why? You know what I mean? Like, it's just part of a natural flow. Like, if, if, if, if the company is constantly losing money, it's just not working, okay, that's a different story.

• 1:25:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  But if you can have, like you said, the myopic nature of it is a perfect, perfect way of describing it. It's, if you can just relax around the down, downwards trends, which is literally in everything. You can't escape it, in stock market, in, in, in, in natural processes, in your life, in every.

• 1:25:59Danny Jones?

  Sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  And again, it's okay.

• 1:26:03Danny Jones?

  Do another line.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  Exactly. No, and this is why I keep saying, you know, I'm like, I'm, I love technology, but it's absolutely true that if we don't, if we have everything, and yet we still can't enjoy it, what's the point of having everything? Yeah, it's finding that balance, basically.

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  So I think that's what we were talking about, is, is the end of childhood. For, uh, end of spiritual, spiritual childhood for this planet is coming. That's why these conversations, and especially exploring these spaces, we maybe talk about psychologics and D and D, is, is coming because, because what you guys right now talk about, or talking about, is this chaos.

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  What's happening on this planet is this chaos comes from a very simple place. Again, none of us know what the hell is going on. Right. What is our purpose? Why are we here? What is it we supposed to do? Yes. And in that chaos of not knowing what we're supposed to do is where all this happens. Let's build this, let's build that. Like, there are obvious things that we, as humans, we're trying to get away as far possible. Let's say, physical labor and difficulties. So we build machines and we build help that alleviate that necessity. Now, eventually, we're going there when human labor will be completely eliminated, right? Um, or most of it will be eliminated.

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  AI and technology and robots will do most of those things. And when that happens, that will be a massive change how this planet behaves. Because once human labor is unnecessary, that will crush completely the financial systems. Because if you don't work, how do you afford the things that are being produced? Right. And so that will completely change how money and finances and everything works and how society works. Also, it will give you the freedom, like, now you can do really whatever the hell you wanted to do. Because your physical labor is not necessary. Also, the exploitation of that will has to end because we don't need you to, you know, seed and and harvest those, you know, I don't know, rice crops or whatever the hell.

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  Or you don't need to go and mine because robots are doing that, right? So that is coming. That is definitely coming. And but there's the spiritual side of that, that we're going back to the times where, you know, the great philosophers from ancient times, when they had the time to sit around and think about what the hell is going on. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so, so I think our society, or species, I should say, is going back to that point where we we will, what we're doing and core is what we're talking about, what our connection is, like, me and Danny, you know, and a bunch of people who are in this space talking about is like, okay, there are answers in that space. And, and

• 1:29:00Speaker 02

  And humanity, the entire species needs to figure this out. Because again, there is science. Is science important? Yeah, but what science is, is basically looking for answers for the same question. Why are we here? What's going on? Or if you just think about, if, if science is looking for explanations, well, thanks. You explained how it works, but that doesn't give me the answer. Why am I here still?

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:24Speaker 02

  Right? So if you can scientifically explain how I exist, or scientifically explain the processes and my biology and all that stuff, cute, awesome, ah, yay, right? But still did not answer the ultimate question. What the hell is going on? Why are we here? Why this is happening?

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  The way that science is done now, I feel like it basically decided that there's one modality to understand the world.

• 1:29:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  So the original question was always, what is going on? Right?

• 1:29:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  And then people came about, went about it in different ways. Through religious, religion, philosophy, fill in the blank.

• 1:30:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Science came along, and it was another way of coming at what's going on.

• 1:30:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  But it produced a certain amount of tangible goods through that method that kind of verified it on a different level. Because it made something that everybody can see regardless of their, you know, in, in, inner seeking. So like, they're just like, oh, it made a camera, it made this and made that.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  And it is a very, very strong tool. But I think what the confusion became then is that that is the ultimate modality, where of course it isn't. So like, I always say that-

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  Science?

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, capital S, science for me, in the grand scheme of things, has to be just the enterprise of human understanding. That's it. Which should include all the inner science, which is like the, what it's like to be you, what it's like to be a society. It has to do with everything that is contained within what we call existence, including experience and everything else.

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• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  So contemplative science is part of science, capitalized science. And it's only when we're going to start understanding that it's one project and bringing it together. So like the technical stuff, but also the hard problem of consciousness. Like what is actually the connection between consciousness and all the technical stuff and how it works? And what Zoltan was alluding to is that I, we just started Code of Reality, Inc. So I guess it will, it's just in its infancy. And I asked Zoltan to be on the board of directors, just to kind of help guide the process. He has a lot of experience, both in, you know, building things, understanding what works. And our ultimate goal is to basically bring as many smart people from all the possible domains together

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  to work on this problem without feeling the pressure of either being ridiculed. Or like, we want to create a coherent picture of what it's like to have what we call capitalized science. So like the human, the enterprise of human understanding. Well, not institutionalized, more like, how do you create a container for people to come together? There's, there's already think, by the way, this is not necessarily that. So there's a, you know, there are scientific endeavors that are doing it in that way, or starting to do it in that way.

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  Santa Fe Institute are doing that. That's a known thing. They bring interdisciplinary minds onto a project. So like if they have a problem in engineering, they would still bring philosophers or even musicians to think about the problem together because there's certain understandings from other domains that are much more holistic if you, if you approach it that way. Now, and that, those are very important things. And we want to create something that will... Put even a bigger emphasis on the fact that hey, you bring in neuroscientists, a physicist, a really like experienced psychonaut.

• 1:33:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  Work together to understand it. Cause I keep hearing these like, people think they're somehow domains shouldn't be talking to each other. They'll say like, why are you talking about your experience with DMT from the perspective of physics? I'm like, what do you mean? Like, why wouldn't I?

• 1:34:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  It's part of whatever's going on, right? Like, yeah, but that's something has to do with the mind. It's like, wait a second.

• 1:34:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Is whatever the mind not somehow related to everything else that is physical? And this is super smart people and they keep, there's this, there's this confusion that somehow there's this separation because of the domains that we've created in our minds. No, that's biology. It has nothing to do with physics. What are you talking about? Of course it has to do with physics. We just don't understand that connection. So we want to create a container for people to express themselves in that environment in a way that will build towards a common goal versus just having like a patchy kind of interaction online that sometimes maybe somebody will stumble upon some information somebody else did in a different domain. We want to bring it together.

• 1:34:42Danny Jones?

  And there's also, it's also by nature, this thing, you can't really study this thing with the scientific method.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Which one specifically?

• 1:34:50Danny Jones?

  With the DMT, with the DMT experience and with the laser, like it's not.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, Gallimore's doing that.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  Define science, right?

• 1:34:56Danny Jones?

  Right, like reductive science, like the reductive uh, method of solving a, or figuring out what the fuck is going on here, right?

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't agree. I think it's just broader. So I think it's just like how wide the ontology you include. So right now, if we're.

• 1:35:10Danny Jones?

  You can't, you can't actually put it in a fucking, on a, on a scale and weigh it.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  You might.

• 1:35:15Speaker 02

  Right, but you're talking about science, when we look at science from the observation point of I measure. I measure and I verify processes and, and see if it's repeatable, right?

• 1:35:24Danny Jones?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:35:24Speaker 02

  But here's the thing, is it repeatable? Yes, because we are going regardless of the method, regardless of what way. And it is a chemical process. So this is scientific. Something happens that a molecule gets introduced to your mind and I will suddenly switch something on that I can access spaces that otherwise are inaccessible to me. And then another person and many of us, you know, doing the same thing. And then we can talk about verifiably the same thing, that you see the same things in that place. Right? Even if you, even as a scientist, you go, well, you guys all hallucinating. It is pretty strange if you're hallucinating the same things. So it needs to be explored, right?

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  So, you know, what the science look at things like it's science if it's repeatable and verifiable. Well, you know, we, you can talk about a lot of psychonauts and they're gonna tell you, draw you the same, let's say, beings that they saw, the same places that they saw. Right? So it's verifiably, verifiably, we have similar experiences. So that means we absolutely as, as a species, we need to explore this. Right? Besides, you know, your body generates D M T. Right? So your lungs and your, your mind is manufacturing this to begin with.

• 1:36:40Danny Jones?

  So crazy.

• 1:36:41Speaker 02

  Right? So, you know, so, so needs to be. Now, if, if I just go from the individual perspective and say, okay, um, I'm in the space. And I am seeing structures, incredible structures, like, like incredible complicated cathedral-like structures. Right? Where Notre Dame is child's toy compared to what I'm seeing. Okay. Then, you know, let's say, if, let's say, I'm, I'm hallucinating. All right. Let's go that route. If I am, then clearly my mind is capable of, of creating such complicated structures. That was before unknown to me. If my mind can imagine these incredible things on its own, that means I need to step out of the way

• 1:37:26Speaker 02

  and let this mind roam and create and bro bring these things here.

• 1:37:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:31Speaker 02

  Or I am going to something that exists, something that is tangible. And this is when, you know, the scientists drop off like, oh, you know, we don't. But if I can go back to the same places, which I can, I've been mapping this for over a decade. And going to same places, have familiar places. And then we have conversations with people who also going into this space. That, that's what I mean, like childhood ends, this conversation is now out in the open. I haven't been talking about this, but I am because now a lot of people start to understand. So we have common references. If fifteen years ago I told you or told anyone this, they would look at me like you're crazy. We have to have a common reference.

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  Now enough people being in this place when we have common references, there's a common library. Even words that we use, people talk about the machine elves.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Speaker 02

  And everybody knows what you're talking about, whoever been in that place.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Came from Terrence, right?

• 1:38:25Speaker 02

  Right. But but the thing is like, when you have many, many, many people saying the same thing, then it's like, okay, there's something to this. Obviously, right? So if that's the case, then then these places we're going to are more likely to exist than not. And what would fulfill the scientific, you know, question here? That if we can talk about the same place completely independently, rescribe it to each other, many of us. And it aligns, it's parallels, then absolutely we need to explore it. So I think I think it's it's an absolute necessity. That's why I said there's forecasts, there are child, the flower child that jump into this space and like woo-hoo. Colors and explosions, awesome. There's that.

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  Then the scientific minds, the explorers like us who go into this place and okay. What's happening here? We're going in there with a purpose and a question and and and explore. And then there's the scientists who would like to measure things and looking from the outside. And there are research on this, right? But they're not researching it with using the molecule. So you cannot have the experience. So that's that's, you know, it's like, that's a difficult, that's the barrier right there. And there are the unaware who have no idea.

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  To be fair, DMTX is doing that, but I would say they are one facet of a much larger attempt at this. And it shouldn't be limited to the way they're doing it. And I I think the main difference. To what you said about it, I guess you can't quantify it. That's because you didn't have a wide enough of a sample of it. So it was repeatable, but not repeatable enough, right? Now it's repeatable enough because you have more people doing it more often and they can actually. So you had Dennis on, right? The legendary Dennis McKenna.

• 1:40:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  Wonderful book that he wrote.

• 1:40:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, The Brotherhood from the Scary Business.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Incredible book. And here's the thing, what happened to him was particularly interesting to me because he was the one experiencing this incredible opening of whatever happened to them in La Chorera. And it is also the thing that made him recoil and go a different route into science. And then somehow through science, he acquired this, this separation factor. That I feel that, that when you train in proper science, it happens. Because you basically are trained to be less and less fooled by your own inadequacies and thoughts and all of that stuff.

• 1:40:55Speaker 01

  But it's almost like you're now being convinced that there is no place to your convictions and all the stuff that you're experiencing. And the truth is that everything we do is just conviction in the aggregate. Everything we do, like I always say, especially in neuroscience, is some consensus between what we can see that the brain is doing at the time that somebody's reporting something.

• 1:41:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  And then we just collect that data over many, many individuals. But that's the cash value is from somebody reporting something to you, right? So if you have enough of a sample, and this is where things like the code actually come into play. Because they're repeatable enough for you to potentially try and actually probe in a way that you would anything else in science. It's not like when you go and see the beings, like, well, describe to me the being. Well, it was a big spider. Wait, was it purple? No, it was black. Interesting. Okay. But you saw a purple one? Yeah. Hmm. I wonder how many years it would take us to get, reach any kind of consensus this way.

• 1:41:50Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Especially because we know that the worst kind of data point on the planet is hearsay by a witness, right? So it's like, okay, you have to be able to record directly from the brain, right? But if you have something as concrete as the code, you can potentially do like perturbations to it, see if actually something changes. Now, it might pan out to different degree and not pan out to other degrees, but that gives you the, that gives you the freedom to actually explore it in that way. Now, to be fair, again, you know, specifically with the code. People like Gallimore, in a very good faith way, from a scientific standpoint, say, "Well, you know, I do think that with all my expertise, I'm saying that, yes, there are hallucinations that should be able to be mapped on this perfectly, as you're describing. Fair enough, let's explore that proposition.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  There must be ways. The question should never be like, "Can you explain it a way with science?" It should be, "Okay, is there a counterpoint to what I'm saying? Yes, great, let's explore how we can discern then whether it is what, A or B? We should come up with experiments to make the discernment, versus saying, "Can science explain it in the way that we perceive it currently? Sure, but we should explore how it explains it. And maybe what we should question is certain assumptions that science makes about the world." Because I think at this point, it's pretty clear that, at least physicalism, as it's perceived in the most, you know, naive way of it, which is like, there's just physical matter, and then they're just us arising from physical matter. I think that's pretty clearly out.

• 1:43:20Danny Jones?

  So, I think it was really interesting what Gallimore said on that video. He was explaining, which you explained on the podcast, was this term called "object-hood."

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:29Danny Jones?

  So it's like this idea of, and correct me if I'm fucking this up, but like, you see, I see this can, right? And I know it's a can, because I've seen this a million times before, right? And I know it's on the table, because I've seen this table a million times before, blah, blah, blah. But if it's the first time I'm seeing this can, I'm gonna be like, "Whoa." Like, it's gonna like freak, I'm not gonna know what to think of it, because I don't have any sort of frame of reference for this can, right? To know that it's real, and it's sitting here on this table.

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  Just a small correction, I think matters. It wouldn't be the can, it would be a can that is of a completely different gestalt. So you have what's called gestalt, so they're basically frames, right? So you have, this is, with the way we perceive the world at the moment, you can think of this level of qualia for each and every one of us as a gestalt. So it's like, okay, it has a quality to it that I recognize, that I never think about, because this is the water I swim in.

• 1:44:20Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  But this can is part of that gestalt. It's like, it's, I know. So if another can appears with a different writing on it, you're not gonna freak out. It's like, "Oh, why does it say, you know, these letters?"

• 1:44:30Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  Well, what happens in DMT, which is why it's so interesting to so many people, that there's no argument about that. The reason it's so unique is because it's a completely different gestalt. Like, it's a completely different thing that you've never experienced before, if you've never done it before.

• 1:44:45Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  That would be equivalent to that can you're describing. But even in that space... And this is where it gets kind of dicey because on the one hand, Galimor's point is the reason that DMT is so interesting from a neuroscientific perspective is that it seems to be extremely coherent and we know the brain is not just receiving like a camera, but it basically does a lot of guesswork according to what everybody knows to happen. So it's projecting from the inside. So if something immediately became, comes to you that you've never seen before of a completely different flavor and it's super coherent, well, that's difficult to explain in neurological terms because the brain is not just, again, receiving like a camera. It should have some, some form of inner representation of it.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  With the case of the code, and this is why it's very unsatisfying because you kind of have to see it to really understand that point. There's, when you project the laser on the surface, the reason that it's very difficult to postulate that it's somehow the result of the light hitting that particular surface in a particular way combined with a really psychedelic substance, because whatever you see is not even on the surface. It's like, it's almost like you're now seeing a subspace that is hovering within our space and it goes infinitely into the z-axis with extreme coherence and it doesn't kind of dissipate as you would expect a random pattern to be. It just, it's a completely coherent framework.

• 1:46:13Speaker 01

  It's its own gestalt and it's completely coherent on its own right.

• 1:46:17Danny Jones?

  And your eyes are open when she, it's not, so, correct me if I'm wrong, I've only done DMT once. So when you see stuff, is it typically in 3D space when your eyes are open or is most of the stuff you see with your eyes closed?

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  You mean in DMT with general?

• 1:46:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  It depends what you do.

• 1:46:32Danny Jones?

  Like anything?

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:33Danny Jones?

  Like remember when you saw this console?

• 1:46:35Speaker 02

  It's a choice.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  It's a choice.

• 1:46:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can choose both.

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  So some of it would be, this is why it's dicey, because some of it would be mapped on as a result of the extreme condition that your brain is under and in that way, your brain might be transforming some things you already see and transforming it into something else.

• 1:46:52Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:46:52Speaker 01

  But the claim that we're making is there's other things that are not the result of that. They actually exist and you become aware of them. So now the question is, how do you discern? How do you make that discernment?

• 1:47:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  Which is where the, the conversation around the word object comes in.

• 1:47:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:08Speaker 01

  Galimor's correction, just to be super fair to what I said on your latest podcast, was that Anil Seth is using the word "objecthood" not to describe some objective component of what real objects would have. Now, it's not actually what I was saying, but I understand his correction, because maybe it came across as if I was saying that. So I'm not saying that objecthood, that quality that Anil Seth is talking about, is somehow an objective component, and this is how we can discern what's real and what's not real. But it is a good enough of a parameter to use to triangulate what might be more that thing that just exists and we've become aware of

• 1:47:51Speaker 01

  versus the thing that is like a hallucination, where it's just something your brain saw that is now incorporating into a larger cognitive structure that it's making by itself. Because for all intents and purposes, the one point that is constantly being missed, what is physical matter? Because in the end of the day, even if it's all mind, even if it's idealism and, you know, mind is the most fundamental thing, whatever you picture about the world, something is regular enough that you can't walk through the wall. And I actually asked this when I was out with Goler when we were like meeting face to face, and I asked him like, "But what is, in the context of everything you know, right? How would you define what's out there? Like, what is this physical thing?"

• 1:48:36Speaker 01

  And he goes like, "The multi-billion dollar question, man." Like, that is the question. Because even if you do believe that everything is spiritual stuff ultimately, something is happening that prevents you from going through the wall. Yeah. And that part, there's a rule set. And that part is constantly being overlooked by modern neuroscientists, it seems, that they're saying, "No, but it's all, you know, it's all mind." I'm like, "Sure, but we have to talk about what is it that gives it this quality of being physical?" Because there's clearly a difference between that and what I'm, like, there's a reason why it's so difficult to manipulate the physical stuff, and it's so much easier to manipulate the mind stuff. There's a lack of malleability there that needs to be talked about.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  This is why physics has to enter the picture. And you have to combine our understanding of physics... Because there, yes, there are abstractions. Nobody has ever seen an atom and all of that jazz. Sure, that's true. However, these abstractions help us to understand certain functionalities that we can make predictions on, and it checks out. So like, the reason we can build complicated things is because we understand something about these processes. So how do these processes then connect to what we call consciousness? Not just from a philosophical perspective, because where DMT is, is exactly this margin. It is the event horizon between the physical and the non-physical. Because it is so profoundly real, and at the same time, not physical.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  So it kinda, you know, like, the event horizon is, like, that's where quantum physics and classical physics meet, because it's such an extreme condition. Extreme conditions allow us to investigate the deeper parts of nature. DMT is an extreme condition that allows us to probe into that question. What is the connection between the physical and the non-physical?

• 1:50:26Speaker 02

  Like, look at your dreams. You can have a dream where your eyes are closed, but you're dreaming of the beach. There's light on the beach, right? Your eyes are closed, but you're experiencing in your dream a full color, the smell, the field. And you can have even lucid dream that you wake up from, I'm not even sure at the moment, when you wake up like, oh, was that real? Oh my god. You're still almost physically affected by the dream. What happened there? Right? How real is that? And what's the difference between right now and the dream?

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:01Speaker 02

  Right? And so there's this idea that, not proven yet, but the idea is that DMT is the reason that, that's the fuel.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  For the dreams.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  For the dreams, right? That's the fuel from the dreams. And so, when we talk about that event horizon, right? And you're looking at the dreams and how real is that and how real is this, right? The only difference is, when you're talking about the mind's work, it's the same. The only difference is that, that in...

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  This reality that we perceive, if I move this cup and I wake up tomorrow, it will be still there, right? So wherever it is, tomorrow I come back and it will be there. So there is some kind of permanence of this when we.

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  And the code has that.

• 1:51:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  That's what I meant by the code has objecthood. It's clear to you it's there.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  Just by observing it. So now it's very difficult in linguistic terms. So to give you the, you know, people now email me all the time, obviously with a billion theories, right? And there are as many theories as there are people, right? That's the easy part. You can come up with all kinds of theories. What I'm personally interested in is what is it that we can postulate about the world along the lines of what we're talking about here with like the connection between consciousness and physicality that is actionable, repeatable, testable? Most of it will not pan out, just like in everything else in science. But my point is it should squarely fall within the purview of what mainstream science is. And it should stop being this margin thing that we're doing because it is the central

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  substance of what in fact is going on. We have to be able to say something concretely about what it is instead of keep relying on very vague general statements like, well, the brain is a very powerful machine. Like, okay, well, you said nothing because like, sure. You just said, I have a magic wand that can do anything. That didn't explain nothing. So like, what is it that that magic wand is doing specifically to make A or B or C happen? And how it relates to what we can actually probe? What, you know, I'm in the habit of talking about some of my ideas, but only to illustrate that there are concrete ways along which we're thinking about this. They might not pan out, but here are propositions.

• 1:53:31Speaker 01

  What I'm trying to do is to encourage more smart people to think about this in these terms, in serious terms. I think the holographic principle is exactly correct. And there is a way to map. So the holographic principle is a principle in physics. I think we talked about it a little bit last time. But essentially, I want to see if we can map onto what is happening with the laser. And us and the universe in terms of a hologram. What is each component in the setup of a hologram? That maps onto what our real world is because the holographic principle is one of the most promising frames in physics at the moment. So I think it's exactly correct, which is that we are a holographic projection from a two dimensional filament. I think we're a three dimensional projection from a four dimensional, sorry, four dimensional

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  projection from a three dimensional filament, but that will take us far afield. But I think that in a hologram, you have the source light coming in, it's being split by a beam splitter. Each beam goes its separate ways. This one goes through a set of two mirrors or one mirror. This one goes through a set of two mirrors or one mirror. And then this one goes to an object, hits a screen. Okay? That screen records the information that the beam hit after it already passed the object. So if the first beam comes from here, hits the mic, from the mic it goes to a screen, the screen records the information, just like in a photo.

• 1:54:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  Okay. Now, the difference between a photo and a hologram is that the second beam that was split from the original beam comes through the set of mirrors from the side now, and it meets this first beam here, right before it hits the surface.

• 1:55:08Danny Jones?

  So stereoscopic.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  Essentially, it measures not just the amplitude, but also the phase shift. And that gives you this ability to basically measure more information about from all directions of the whatever it hit, the mic in this case, instead of just hitting the two dimensional imprint of the mic.

• 1:55:25Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  Okay? So what I think, here's one proposition of how to think about this problem, and we'll see if it checks out. I think that we, our consciousness, whatever it is, is the, this is called the reference light, the one that comes from here. So I think we are the reference light, literally our consciousness is a form of light, it's a reference light that hits the source light that came from here, and where they meet, the source light and the reference light.

• 1:55:52Danny Jones?

  Where's the source light coming from?

• 1:55:54Speaker 01

  Big question. So that might be the source, God, whatever you want to call it. Okay, if you want to use esoteric terms, I don't know what the source is. I have no idea. Whatever started it all, okay? But where they meet at the sheet, which in our case, I would say it's the bulk, which is spacetime. Okay, the sheet that registers everything is the substrate of whatever physical matter is, whatever spacetime is. Okay, so where the reference light and the source light meet, that instance, together with the bulk, they create the triangle that creates conscious moment, conscious moment, conscious moment. It's the information being registered in real time. And I call it the pistons of consciousness, like it's that of like instances of actual consciousness.

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Now, this sounds super theoretical, esoteric, cool. I think there's a way to map this in a way that is testable. Because we can say, okay, if this is the reference light and this is the, so if we are the reference light, certain things would be true and other things would not be true. What are they? Uh, for example, there would be an related angle to perception, specifically with the light, so diffraction, for example, that would yield a certain kind of observation, the second we get to the details of it, and wouldn't yield other kinds of observations. So if I make the turn thirty degrees, it would create a certain coherence of the image. And if I go fifty degrees, it might not create the same. Now, we have to get to the details of that and I need

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  a lot smarter people than myself to actually like think about that because there's a lot of math involved. But here's an example of how you can think about this specifically. You have to come up with a theoretical framework that would lend itself perfectly for experimentation. And then you have to run the tests. Ah, we tried thirty degrees, didn't work. That must have been wrong. As Feynman famously said, if it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong. That's the part that I feel that is missing. You either have people That are so far deep into the experiential side that they simply don't care about experiment. They just wanna keep everything being whatever they think it is. And you have the other side, the extreme on the other side, which you have this form of rigidity. Where people just go like, no, it's only what we can verify with external tools.

• 1:58:06Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  That's another component of it, I agree, but it is not the whole picture. There's certain things that we, as the collectors of data that we are, can experience. That at the moment, other instruments can't, and that should be taken into account. It complicates things, I agree, because people have aspirations, ideas, confabulations. We're not a perfect, you know, thing. But even though it complicates things, it's the only way to go. Because you have to include what we're experiencing. If we see that we can, you know, recruit the right kind of people that are interested in finding out what's true. Instead of, you know, constantly just believing whatever it is. So you have to kind of bring it to a central point. Where you both take into account the hard experiments.

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  But you also take into account our agreements of what we think is going on in that instance. And that's somewhat to get, but this is just an example. I'm not saying it will necessarily pan out. But there are ways to think about these things.

• 1:59:02Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  In concrete ways, and I wanna encourage more of that. And I do think that actually explains quite a bit. So for example, if you look at a hologram from the side. Like a regular hologram, right, if we can envision it. If you notice, the third, the reason I'm saying we're four dimensional hologram and not a third dimensional hologram. Is because the hologram on a, when you look at it. It's actually three dimensional only in, it's implied. Because it's a two dimensional sheet. The third dimension is implied. The fact that it looks like it has depth, right? But there's no actual degree of freedom. If you would be that hologram, you can't actually move in the third direction. It's just implied. But you can move in two degrees of freedom.

• 1:59:44Danny Jones?

  You can't, you can't walk around it and see it from all angles.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  If you would be that hologram, you can't, right? But we can move in three dimensions. Which means that we can't possibly, the third one is not implied. The third one is actual, which means, so there has to be one more dimension that is implied. And I'm claiming that's time. The reason we cannot move in time. On our whim, because time is implied. It seems to be there. The change from moment to moment that we experience seems to be there, just like the third dimension is implied in a hologram. But we have three degrees of freedom. So we are a four dimensional hologram projected on a two dimensional sheet, which is the bulk, which is spacetime itself. Now, you can say, well, the bulk is actually four dimensional.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  I'm saying that time is actually implied. The bulk is, the surface of it is three dimensional. And again, this actually lends itself to real experimentation. Like, is there ways to curve the surface in a way that we can see that if we do that, then time would appear to move slower or faster, depending on our perception of it, which we know to actually happen, right? And again, this is

• 2:00:51Danny Jones?

  We can do forward, or we can do forward time travel. Like, that's been proven.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  Well, at least your perception of it is, right? Like, it's like somebody charges you fifty dollars to move fifty minutes in the future, and then you just go in there. It's like, all right, it'll take you fifty minutes to move fifty minutes in time. You have to somehow explain what appears to us to be the case in terms of what we think the larger structure is, which is what the business of physics is in, right? It's just that it's constantly omitting the first person experience. And I'm saying you cannot omit it anymore. You have to somehow explain

• 2:01:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:01:27Speaker 01

  The fact that we're experiencing things a certain way. It's part of existence. And neuroscience will tell you, well, you know, these perceptions, these apparent time changes in your perception, they're just in your perception. Fair enough, but is there a way to test for that? Is it possible that time for you is actually moving slower, just like physically it's moved slower, closer to a mass in physics? Is it possible that it's actually, your brain is taking less computational steps? Is it possible that it's actually moving slower because of whatever happens in your mind? I don't know, but I'm claiming there's a way to discern these things, and it needs to be entertained more seriously in that way.

• 2:02:08Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 2:02:10Danny Jones?

  I'm gonna pretend like I understood everything you just said.

• 2:02:14Speaker 02

  And then you can ask a question about time. Is there such thing?

• 2:02:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:19Speaker 02

  Just the perception of it.

• 2:02:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, well, that's, that's an interesting idea, right? The perception of time and, and time being a dimension.

• 2:02:33Danny Jones?

  And like, how does, how does the dimension of time specifically relate to DMT?

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know. I, one, one thing before you jump into that, I do wanna say it cuz it's important. We just conducted

• 2:02:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  The first officially magnets experiment.

• 2:02:51Danny Jones?

  Okay, yeah.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  That for all intents and purposes, I think, I think most likely is actually bunk. Like, I think it actually doesn't work.

• 2:02:58Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  But here's an example of us actually trying something.

• 2:03:00Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  I doesn't, something happened there one time, actually with my fiance, weirdly enough. All the subjects, including myself, we couldn't see any difference. So the, the experiment was we put a magnet behind the surface. We projected the laser on the surface from the other side. We smoked the empty, we look at it. And I thought we're gonna see some change because of the, if a magnet is powerful enough in the back.

• 2:03:23Danny Jones?

  Behind.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  The surface. So if I, if I just have a sheet of paper and put a magnet here, so you can't see it from here, right?

• 2:03:31Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  And then you project the laser from this side.

• 2:03:33Danny Jones?

  Yep.

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  And then I'm smoking the empty and I'm seeing the code.

• 2:03:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:37Speaker 01

  I thought that if the magnet is powerful enough, I would be able to see some kind of a change from this side. That will tell me where the magnet is, even though I can't see the magnet. You understand?

• 2:03:46Danny Jones?

  Understand, yeah.

• 2:03:48Speaker 01

  I couldn't.

• 2:03:48Danny Jones?

  Nothing, no change?

• 2:03:49Speaker 01

  So far for us, no. However, there was one instance where we have to, we had a camera from above that sees like, like, almost like sees both sides at the same time. Uh, my fiance, she just kinda jumped in and she just like, uh, we probably, Aaron got very mad. He's like, we can't use this for them, like, okay. But for the experiments that might be viable, she, she saw, well, she didn't see, but she, I guess, guessed five times in a row where the magnet was, exactly. So that was strange because I have to admit, I didn't see any difference. Okay. So either there's some other component here we don't understand, or she just got super lucky. I don't know. We have to look through the data. But I just, I just wanna emphasize this because this is how it should be.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  This is how people should go about this. They should try whatever it is they think that might work. I don't know, I don't know why we didn't think of actually putting, cause we had not that powerful magnets, but they were pretty powerful, like a hundred pound magnets. And we should have used more of them, like also on the laser itself to see if anything. And we had, uh, uh, my good friend Pablo is an engineer, helped us create the rotating magnets experiment by Persinger. Uh, he created, helped us create a device, who by the way, was suggested by John Chavez. Shout out to John, who also, by the way, invested in our film quite a bit. So thank you, John. And, uh, basically the rotating magnets is something we can maybe put the laser in between and rotate the magnets and see if that does a difference. We didn't do that.

• 2:05:12Speaker 01

  We're learning. The point, the larger point is, there should be more of that. We should just test this in this way, and if it doesn't pan out, doesn't pan out, but we're gonna keep trying. And I wanna encourage more of that. This insistence that, that, where I feel that I mostly depart with the way that Andrew chooses to go about this. Again, I have tremendous respect for him and I, you know, we had since then really great conversations. But where I would openly disagree with him is that there's this insistence that DMT is so crazy that there's no way anytime soon we will ever be able to make sense of it. I'm saying that attitude actually shoots you in the foot.

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  Because if you decided that, of course, you're not gonna make progress. You have to believe that it's possible to actually discern certain things.

• 2:06:02Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:03Speaker 01

  And maybe even he does think that in other ways, maybe he just disagrees with the specific way which I'm doing it. But this is the way I choose to go about it, and I want to encourage more people to do that and not to get caught up in what they want to be true. If it doesn't work out, say it doesn't work. So we can proceed to the next thing, so we can try another thing, so we can all think about it together.

• 2:06:23Danny Jones?

  Well, I think, and one of the things that he said which struck me was, or one of the questions that he asked was, what makes this code any more real than anything else that you see in DMT world, right?

• 2:06:39Speaker 01

  It's closer to what this is.

• 2:06:43Danny Jones?

  It's closer to what this table is. So it's always the same thing, no matter who it is.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  No, it's as real, I'm claiming it's as real as Jupiter is there.

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  That's what makes it different.

• 2:06:59Danny Jones?

  So like, when you explained that console thing that you saw, you explained that sitting in 3D space, that was anchored.

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just existing.

• 2:07:09Danny Jones?

  To the floor, you could walk around it and see all around this whole thing that was there.

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  Oh, I see it all the time.

• 2:07:13Danny Jones?

  So that would be the equivalent of, oh, you still see it all the time?

• 2:07:16Speaker 01

  100% of the time, every time I smoke.

• 2:07:18Danny Jones?

  Every time you smoke, you see the console?

• 2:07:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:20Danny Jones?

  Holy shit.

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Did I send you the, our, Lazlo, our VR guy, well, he's much more than a VR guy, but he's also a VR guy. He created like a fully immersive environment with the representation of the console in it. And it really delivers how real it is. Now, this is like Zoltan says, an 8-bit version of the real thing. But it delivers how real that is for me. But that's just me. The reason the console is much less impactful is because I can't, I don't know what to do to make other people see the console.

• 2:07:50Danny Jones?

  Oh, right.

• 2:07:51Speaker 01

  But I can show you the code.

• 2:07:53Danny Jones?

  You don't use any sort of external devices like the laser to see the console?

• 2:07:58Speaker 01

  No, it's as real as this mic for me. By the way, the console, this is a small anecdote and unrelated to, not gonna be that interesting probably, but the console was doing something when we were shooting that experiment that it never did before. Usually the console opens up and has a lot of sections all over the room. And only the very small sliver of menus come in like follows me, but the rest of the console just kind of hovers in the room. It's almost like the body of the console, right? It has different sections. One of the sections, the more physical sections, the one that is just always there.

• 2:08:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:31Speaker 01

  Came out and started scanning the people who were looking into laser. I've never seen that before. Yeah, it was like a plate that came off it and it was scanning them, like it was interested in what we were doing. I've never seen that before. Again, this is one of these like, you know, trip report. I don't know what to do with that. It's not a, people say, hey, can you release the next video of the console? Cause I'm working on one. I'm like, dude, I, I need to have some information there that I didn't have the first time. And I don't have that yet. I wanna, I wanna say something new. I don't wanna just keep repeating, you know, what we already said. And if I'm not sure, I'm not sure.

• 2:09:05Danny Jones?

  Zolos, how many times have you seen this code?

• 2:09:07Speaker 02

  So, um, maybe four.

• 2:09:11Danny Jones?

  Four times.

• 2:09:12Speaker 02

  Four times. But, you know, the, the idea is that eventually this will reach a critical mass. Um, you know, there was a time when we had an idea of a geocentric, you know, universe, right? And who thought that was geocentric? The scientists, it wasn't the, the workers in the field. You know, it was a scientist who agreed to, and you know, so there's a scientific class agreed to something that wasn't the case. And then came, you know, Copernicus Galileo, there were, there were people who thought, well, I don't think that's the case, right? And at the time, that was the craziest idea. It almost caused their lives. They definitely caused their freedom, right? And it, it had to reach a critical mass where, where it, it flips.

• 2:09:57Speaker 02

  People start to be interested in this deeper because there's a critical mass of people, right? And that's what, so that's, that's kind of what's happening that, you know, like what, what, what Danny was explaining is a, he's actually approaching it in a very scientific way, right? Of, you know, scientific mind will get into the space and will try to. Analyze it and and and that's the point of these experiments that is there a scientific way to prove beyond the anecdotes that there is a code, we all saw it, right? That's that's an anecdote and how do you physically prove that? But eventually there are going to be enough people to see this code.

• 2:10:41Speaker 02

  That's what I mean by a critical mass will happen or enough people venturing this space. That's why I said end of childhood spiritually, that more and more people venture in this space and our anecdotes start to, you know, be parallel.

• 2:10:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:10:57Speaker 02

  When it's just simply not, you know, I'm coming from a pragmatic or a spiritual direction than a scientific direction, but I'm just pragmatically saying like, you know, when 10,000 people say that, hey, man, I saw this and our and our experiences are verifiable in a way that there's a there's a mass of people that saw this, right? Then it's it's not it's not possible to ignore anymore. It it is asking for the um it is asking for the scientific community to like, well, we got to look at this.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:11:32Speaker 02

  Right? And the whole idea of basically creating the encoded the D M T TED Talks, the, you know, that a a a community that can start comparing notes. And then there is enough data just alone by witnesses, right? Then is is it tangible evidence? Well, you know, when 100 people saw you rob the bank, you probably robbed the bank.

• 2:11:59Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:12:00Speaker 02

  It's just one of those things. So.

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  By the way, did I tell you that we might have figured out a way to see the code without the molecule?

• 2:12:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  What? Yeah. So David Carter, the other board member, uh, who approached me a few months ago, uh, with the opening line, you don't know, but I've been following you for a while, which is uh, and this concerning.

• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  You probably get that a lot. Yeah. No, no, he's incredible. Carter's incredible. So he basically, I guess the best way to describe is who he is is a large, he would say is a organizational expert, but I think is a large scale problem solver. So basically, he worked from everything from government projects, software development is big into crypto and AI now. He understands what makes big processes work. He even worked on some classified, you know, projects. And he said, look, about a year ago, back then, when you reached out to me, I ordered the laser, I saw the code. I never reached out to you, but I started basically talking about it in my circles.

• 2:13:09Speaker 01

  And because I have a certain reputation, people listen to me. He said, when I would go to these conferences, I would like, when we're at the end of whatever, you know, conference we are, I would like whip out the laser and start showing them. And I said, wait, what were you showing them? He's like, well, here's the thing. I have a certain kind of reputation. So this was a prop. I was removing one more step for them to venture into. So like, instead of me telling them, there's this laser. I'm like, oh, here's the laser. And I would just turn it on. It's just a simple deflected laser. But I was telling them, like, I've tried this. I've seen the code and I was explaining where you would see it. And people got so interested because they are looking for this like next step of like understanding. So David recently told me that, I haven't seen him myself yet, but he is, you know,

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  there's a certain, well, reputation that he has with like being accurate with what he's saying. He said, he thinks they figured out a way to see some visibility of the code with these old sensors of Sony cameras that had this night capability. And if we string a bunch of them together, I think we'll be able to see it much more coherently. Now, if it's true, that will automatically change. The conversation. The conversation entirely. And there's also a team from Japan that apparently from 2014 was collecting data from light coming from stars. And they discovered that they can actually discern statistically at this point, pretty concretely,

• 2:14:35Speaker 01

  that there's information in there. There's some kind of a code. There's some kind of glyphs running in there. That is not periodilia. They can actually discern that now with machine learning.

• 2:14:46Danny Jones?

  It's not what?

• 2:14:46Speaker 01

  Periodilia, which your tendency of your brain to just make shapes out of nothing. Because your brain is really good at creating patterns.

• 2:14:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:55Speaker 01

  So they can discern that this is not it. That it's actually real information of some sort. So all of these things are kind of converging. But I just wanted to mention that because Zoltan keeps referring to the end of childhood of humanity.

• 2:15:08Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:15:08Speaker 01

  The it's it's I really think that all of the stuff that I mentioned before, the these crescendos that are all arising at the same time. The reason that you have all these like very animated conversation here about, you know, God and what are these the disclosure and all of this stuff? Is because something is happening that is bigger than us, but not in an esoteric sense, but in an actual sense. It's actually happening. And whatever it is, and the reason that I guess there's maybe urgency is the wrong word, but maybe more of an attention needed on this than currently is being allocated to it. That is an important component. We can no longer pretend that it's just a nine to five.

• 2:15:53Speaker 01

  We go to work, everything is normal. Even the people that think of it more in terms of like the, you know, the, I think the UAP community, the disclosure is a good example is because I've had the conversations with people from that community. And when I asked the question, have you ever considered what you're going to do the day after the disclosure? There's always silence.

• 2:16:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  Because that's really the important part. Okay, disclosure, now what? Like, what do you, how do you envision yourself being a moment after?

• 2:16:20Danny Jones?

  You gotta find a new dragon to chase.

• 2:16:23Speaker 01

  That's exactly it. So.

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  It's interesting that you said about the light out of the stars. Because in that space, I did have that experience that it's it's much more than just light. And I saw this, this, this scientific paper, we're talking about like, well, the electromagnetic processes within a star are much more complicated and much more than the processes in our brains. So is that possible that they have consciousness? Theoretically, yes.

• 2:16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:53Speaker 02

  That's kind of insane, you know? But when we talk end of childhood, like, look, if, if humanity, right, realizes its purpose.

• 2:17:05Speaker 02

  Like if that question gets answered of why are we here, what we are doing, right? That would be such event that probably the most monumental one. And it sounds to me that you're gonna most likely find that answer.

• 2:17:24Speaker 02

  Or get closer to that answer in that space, not in the scientific explanation of how processes work.

• 2:17:31Speaker 01

  Hmm. The process is just a result of the much deeper space.

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:17:35Danny Jones?

  I was gonna, I was gonna ask, when you're studying this stuff and when like you try to help more people become more aware, like the only way to study this is to have obviously lots of people look at it. If you have a million people look at this thing and nine hundred thousand see it and a hundred thousand don't.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  Or to see a way to substantiate it on a screen or to send the information directly into some kind of a chat G P T.

• 2:17:56Danny Jones?

  But at the same time, when you're saying like, we're seeing this code. Like, how do you eliminate this confirmation bias that they're expecting this to see something? You know what I mean? Because isn't that, isn't that a way to, that people would attack this? Say, look, you're, these people are expecting this and they're already seeing something. Like, it's not double blind, right?

• 2:18:19Speaker 01

  So that's two separate things. One is the people attacking it, which they will. It's just natural.

• 2:18:23Danny Jones?

  That's, that's how you make stuff stronger.

• 2:18:25Speaker 01

  That's fine. That's fine. The, the, so that's a non, non point for me. People can attack it all day. If it's real, like I always say, as Terrence used to say, it can take the pressure. I don't mind that.

• 2:18:34Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 2:18:34Speaker 01

  The second part of your question is, even Gallimore, you haven't watched the full video yet, but at the end, he says.

• 2:18:40Danny Jones?

  I watched, I finished it last.

• 2:18:41Speaker 01

  Oh, you finished? Okay. So you know how he says, which is actually a self contradicting point, which I alluded to in my response video, which is, he says that

• 2:18:51Speaker 01

  priming doesn't have this longevity that people attributed to it with the code. And yet he himself somehow.

• 2:18:58Danny Jones?

  Priming doesn't have, so, okay.

• 2:18:59Speaker 01

  It doesn't have this longevity. So priming is, if I give you a cold drink to, to hold. If you don't know me and I ask you general questions, most people would have more negative kind of things to say about the person. Same thing with a worm drink and the other way. Okay, that's priming. I'm priming a certain state that makes certain general occurrences more likely. Priming does not work with specific content, hyper-specific content that I was gonna convince you. If I say, so here's, this is easily testable. If people think it's priming, take a group of people that you know for sure didn't hear about this, right?

• 2:19:37Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 2:19:37Speaker 01

  And then tell them about elephants. Inject it subliminally, talk to them about it, do all of that, then show them the laser.

• 2:19:45Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:19:45Speaker 01

  Okay, if they still tell you they see Japanese letters, can we then agree that this is not it, right? So that's easily testable.

• 2:19:53Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:19:54Speaker 01

  The other point that people make, which is like, oh, but, which by the way, I've done, I've told people something else and they came back and said, I didn't say what you told me, but I saw these weird, they said Chinese.

• 2:20:03Danny Jones?

  Like me, I saw the gears.

• 2:20:05Speaker 01

  The gears that you see in the beginning, yeah, but it's just the way it appears. So, but the other point of like, yeah, but if you do make it big enough, I was like, okay, hold on. So you're telling me that you believe that if one guy can say something convincingly enough, you can then convince the entire earth that something is there? Well, then I think that's a whole phenomenon all by itself we should study then. Because what are you talking about? People go to the DMT space all the time, right? How do you know about the machine elves?

• 2:20:33Danny Jones?

  Somebody told you about it all the time.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  Exactly. So are we saying, oh, we shouldn't talk about machine elves? Because if we're gonna keep talking about it, it's gonna be confirmational bias, and then how do we know if they're real or not? Well, the only difference here is that I'm claiming that this is actually real, which was already in the zeitgeist, already in the conversation. I think it's the level of emphasis that I'm giving it that people are uncomfortable with. They're uncomfortable with the amount of certainty I have about it, which I get, right, which I get. But at a certain point, you have to admit when you do know what you know. So the reason that I'm saying things with this amount of conviction, the things that I am saying I'm knowing with conviction, again, to remind everybody, the only thing I'm saying that I know for sure is that whatever it is, people say, why are you calling it the code of reality? I don't know, it's a placeholder, it kind of looks like a self-executing

• 2:21:19Speaker 01

  code. Do I know it codes for all the environment and everything? Of course not. Here's what I know for sure, whatever that is. Exists on its own side even when you're not looking. It's a real thing. Or if you wanna say, yeah, but everything is mine. Okay, even within that frame, whatever it is that you mean to say, the external environment within, within the perception that everything is mine. Okay, however you wanna play the language game, it is an external thing to you as you are perceiving yourself right now. That's a real thing. That's all I'm claiming. Why I know this with absolute uncertainty? Well, there's a certain long process I went through personally over years and years and years, before I even spoke about this publicly, where I actually never assumed anything about it. I just allowed it to unfold. I just kinda looked at it for what it is.

• 2:22:03Speaker 01

  I didn't really land on any conclusion or anything. And eventually, with a lot of hammering into me, with like insistence from the other space to say, "Yo, what else do we need to show you?" And I'm like, "Wait, so you're telling me..." They're like, "Yes, yes, it's what this is." I was like, "Oh." They're like, "Thank you." So then eventually you go, "Okay, I know this is real. I no longer feel the obligation to pretend to think that maybe..." I don't think that maybe. I know for sure. Does that mean that everybody has to have this amount of conviction? Of course not. But I'm, I don't feel apologetic for the amount of conviction I have because at a certain point, there is such a state of the brain, of the mind, called knowing. It's a very limited knowing.

• 2:22:48Speaker 01

  It's a very small portion. I'm not claiming to know the ultimate secrets of the universe, but I know I can't walk through the wall. Do I know this? Yes, I know this. Do you know this? Yes. And anybody who insists otherwise is just playing a weird language game, right? You know you can't walk through the wall. Let's not be silly. Okay, I know that the code is there as much as I know that I can't walk through the wall. So at a certain point, I have every right to have the conviction that I have, and I can defend these convictions. And anybody has the right to criticize my convictions, which is exactly the situation we're in. The, the move that the other side sometimes makes is just like, "If you would just have less conviction, I would be more comfortable with it." Well- That's not, that's you.

• 2:23:32Speaker 02

  That's not how it is.

• 2:23:33Speaker 01

  That's, that's fine, but we're gonna have the conversation with the amount of conviction we're gonna have for both ends about it. And the only thing that would substantiate it ultimately is if something comes from it. If something that can actually comes to fruition from it. Up until this point, the main criticism was, well, if these things are real to any degree, how come they always so elusive? How come they don't really leave any mark or like real information behind? Well, here it is. Here's the thing, let's start playing with it. And now people push the horizon even further.

• 2:24:04Danny Jones?

  Do you ever get the, the feeling that maybe this stuff wasn't meant to be studied and scientifically proven?

• 2:24:08Speaker 01

  Why is it discoverable then? That's, that seems to be an arbitrary point.

• 2:24:12Danny Jones?

  That's a paradox. Maybe, maybe, maybe it just wasn't meant to be known by everybody. Maybe this thing wasn't, maybe this thing isn't meant to change humanity, right? Maybe it's not meant to help humanity mature or evolve. Maybe it's just for specific people to discover on their own and it's not.

• 2:24:33Danny Jones?

  There, are you familiar with this study? There was this John Hopkins study that went on. I just had this journalist on here named Travis Kitchens, who was a part of a John Hopkins psychedelic study, research study in like the nineties or early two thousands.

• 2:24:45Danny Jones?

  With a couple, with a, what were the gentlemen's names who were, started that study? Like the guys that were like the pioneers of the psychedelic Renaissance were a part of this study. And it was this study where they brought in a bunch of people from different religious part, a bunch of different religions. Like they brought in a Buddhist, a Jewish, Jewish person, Christians. People like the heads of all the faiths, right? Who had different religious beliefs. Put them on psychedelics and tried to find out what the common theme was behind all of their experiences and how they projected their own religious frameworks onto it, right? And they had this hypothesis that.

• 2:25:26Danny Jones?

  Of this idea called perennialism. I don't know if you've ever heard of perennialism, but perennialism is this idea that all religions came from one common source, like they're all drawing from one source, which is, goes back to like, with some of the stuff like Brian Marescu talks about is like the hallucinian mysteries and the Greeks were experiencing this psychedelic, they were going into this DMT state or the psychedelic state where they were seeing God, right? Or they were, they were experiencing these things that eventually got translated into different religions, right? For different reasons, which, you know, religions kind of like Christianity

• 2:26:06Danny Jones?

  spiraled out of control and became, you know, this thing that we know of today. And like, it's like the ultimate goal of this was trying to find one common core to all religions and to, to all human belief and the core of human consciousness, almost, right? But it's like,

• 2:26:31Danny Jones?

  to me, and what Travis pointed out great was like, I don't think, I don't think it really matters that much, right? Like if you're a Christian, or if you're a Buddhist, or if you're a UFO person, or if you're a psychonaut who thinks that, you know, whatever you believe, as long as your belief makes you a better person, more power to you.

• 2:26:51Speaker 01

  I tell you why it doesn't map on to the way I see it. Because the answer to your question, is it possible that it's not meant to be entertained by everybody and it's not supposed to help us? The answer is, of course, maybe, yeah, maybe sure, maybe you're right. But that's a lot of maybes, right? The, the more reasonable way to, to proceed, I would say, is to look at how any other big understanding in human history ever happened, which is always a correction of the map. The reason that in some domains, it might be, might be okay to hold opposing views about different things, but in other domains it isn't. I forget who gave that example, but it's

• 2:27:32Speaker 01

  a perfect example. The example is, if you think you're on a ship, and you go out and you just open the window, crack the window because you want some more air, but you happen to be on the submarine and you get confused.

• 2:27:48Speaker 01

  It really matters.

• 2:27:51Speaker 01

  No, forget about the fact that you can't really open the window, but let's say you could. The point is, if you don't understand the situation you're in, you might make moves that can be detrimental. So making the map match the territory is a very important. It's a very important endeavor. And just notice that whenever people sailed outside of the domain of the current

• 2:28:12Speaker 01

  conviction of society, either intellectually or physically into the ocean, you're gonna fall off the face of the earth. What if, just stay here. What if we say, hey, wolves are gonna come to the village. Either you like it or not. You have to understand always the larger environment you're in. It's just the nature of the game. And if then you wanna say, well, look, I understand the game has worked this way so far, but maybe this is it, this is the limit. Well, that's an arbitrary limit.

• 2:28:39Speaker 02

  This thing can be connected, though. You can connect this to, the conversation you were saying about the various religions, right? And what Danny just said. So there's actually a connecting element here. One is starting with every single religion, right? Is in the realm of verbal communication. What we talked about originally, the filters and beyond the filters. And so it's in a box of language.

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• 2:30:05Speaker 02

  Right, so whatever religion that is, the the search is the same ultimately. The question is the same, what are we, where we came from? Right. Is there a an entity that created us, or how how does this operate, right? And all that happens in the verbal realm. Yes. Because regardless of the religion, they use a a set of lan- a language, be it Sanskrit, being Hebrew, being English, being whatever it is, right? You're operating in that box. Mm hmm. And everything that you can talk about is a a a loose description of something. So you have to move outside of the box, outside of the language,

• 2:30:49Speaker 02

  and move beyond that point where it becomes an experience. When it's an experience, I'm pretty sure the experience is exactly the same to every in quote religion. The the the split comes from the different culture and language that you're explaining or talk about the things. But if you go to the experiment part, which is outside of language, which is below, before the filters, right? Mm hmm. That takes that information, then it's probably exactly the same. It's your description of your experience is what difference, right? Yeah. And then, but then he was talking about the functionality of of, yes, it is our purpose maybe to go and experiment and figure out things and and

• 2:31:34Speaker 02

  and have answers

• 2:31:37Speaker 02

  to this ultimate question. What are we doing here? Why are we doing it? Now, you equate it to the submarine that you might open a window that you shouldn't be opening, right? Uh, this this could be true, that we could be barreling down in paths that, you know, that are not exactly optimal optimal or even detrimental, right? But if we just say we stay with the pragmatic, the absolute pragmatic basics, then the experiments, the experience of it, right? When it's non-verbal, it's most likely the same. So this is the language that and the descriptions that separates it into different buckets of religion.

• 2:32:20Speaker 02

  And the question always gonna be the same, why? Why?

• 2:32:24Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:32:25Speaker 02

  What is the purpose?

• 2:32:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:32:26Speaker 02

  So that is a fundamental question of all. Everything as, everything as is a subset of that.

• 2:32:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:33Speaker 02

  The ultimate question is, what is happening? Why is it happening? What is our purpose?

• 2:32:39Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:32:40Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 2:32:40Danny Jones?

  And I think that's part of the human brain's operating system is to ask that question, why? Because, right, because everything comes from something, right? We came, both came from our parents, came from our grandparents. A plant, a tree comes from a seed planted in the ground. But like, where did the first one come from? The very, very first one is only by us being able to have the gift of reason is to find, is to believe in a God.

• 2:33:03Speaker 02

  I don't think it's human. The question is general, right? I think in any other species, any other species exist in this universe will have the same questions. The same exact questions. Doesn't matter that you grew up in a different solar system, in different circumstances. The question will be the same.

• 2:33:22Speaker 01

  And it would be asked on the level that you can entertain. So for an amoeba, the form of the question would be, how can I be more comfortable? Oh, this is too hot, I'm gonna move to the shade. But the question always drives the process. That's a completely natural thing in existence itself. Yeah. So to then put a, an arbitrary stop to it because of other things we think we understand. Because notice that everything you described, there are also conceptual frameworks.

• 2:33:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:33:48Speaker 01

  There are also other things that people claim to understand. So it's just a competition between the frames of understanding.

• 2:33:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:55Speaker 01

  So the, the example with the submarine more illustrates, what if there's something you're supposed to do and you're not gonna do? Because you didn't understand where you are. Is there a cliff there? And you thought it was just a two dimensional shape, but it's more than that. So you have to understand that you're on that path, right? And so the answer to most times, like, should you know? Almost in every instance, it's yes. It's always better to know and then to do something about it versus not know. There are some limited cases that I would say, like, if a meteor is hurling down towards us and we have three weeks to live, is it better to know? In this limited instance, maybe not. Because in three weeks, we're just gonna panic and it's not gonna be better.

• 2:34:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:34:33Speaker 01

  But. These cases are much more rare than all the other cases. Like, is it good for us to know how to synthesize polio or to build the atom bomb? Well, it's good for us to know that that's a possibility and then kind of work around it. Because to say we shouldn't have never discovered it, that's just postponing the moment in which it will be discovered someday. It's always better to know something and then to do something about it properly. And that's why I'm saying the attitude of the monkey is we keep pointing to these external things as the blame. But it's like if we can get our act together, then we can stop pointing.

• 2:35:08Speaker 02

  Right. I can drop a paradox on top on this.

• 2:35:12Speaker 01

  Please.

• 2:35:12Speaker 02

  I can drop a massive paradox. Okay. So because it makes sense, right, that we should know. But knowing, knowing that we shouldn't know is also knowing. I'm gonna give it to you. I'm gonna give you into an actual experience that I personally had in the space, deep in the space. I've been there hundreds and hundreds of times. And there are different levels and I'll give you an actual example. When it's non-verbal communication, how data comes to you, you just know. And it's independent of time. So meaning when you're in that space, you just out of a sudden know something.

• 2:35:57Speaker 02

  And it's almost like it didn't really take time. So it's not like there's a book of knowledge and it takes time to absorb that. It just, oh, I understand. And it's instant, right? And so there was this moment where I realized that we are in, being in that space. And when you reach this idea that, you know, like what is, that the Buddhists talk about, where is, Pat's are talking about this oneness. When we took off my hands from the cup and then you realize like, oh, there's this one consciousness, right? And there's the obvious question like, why are we compartmentalized?

• 2:36:38Speaker 02

  Well, in that one consciousness, it's absolute. There is nothing else. Just this one consciousness. And in that state, if you can absorb that for a second, it's the loneliest existence that it can be. It has no companion because there is nothing else but it. That's it, right?

• 2:36:58Danny Jones?

  Just one.

• 2:36:59Speaker 02

  Just one. But that one, this universal consciousness, this soup of everything, is one coherent consciousness. And it is, for a lack of better word, is it's the absolute loneliness. Because it has no companion. However, in a second, you're compartmentalized. Now, you're not cop.

• 2:37:22Speaker 02

  You're a sub-process, right? Then you're not in that absolute consciousness.

• 2:37:28Danny Jones?

  You're surrounded by others.

• 2:37:29Speaker 02

  Correct. So out of a sudden, there are processes, there is no, is there are, there are experiences can be, can exist, right? And so I had this perception of, of

• 2:37:44Speaker 02

  the job or purposes is that every possibility can be experienced. And it's almost like your function. And this, it will take away some sort of, uh, some sort of, uh, uh, uh, anxiety of human existence. Because, am I doing my purpose? Yes, we all do. Our purpose is to experience, live this life. There, there's no way out. You were born into this life and you're absolutely have to live it until you're not living, right? There's no way out. That's the process. And the process is that you're living at one set of possibilities.

• 2:38:24Speaker 02

  It's your possibility, your possibility and your experience is not going to be anywhere near to anyone else's. It's very unique to you, right? And so this set of data was fed to the absolute consciousness. This experience, yours, yours was fed and yours was and all of ours. So, so this, the phenomena, God, the whatever you wanna call it, experiences all the possibilities, the infinite possibilities. And you are that subroutine that experienced this one. So whatever it is you're doing, you're doing your job. You're living your life, you're experiencing and you're feeding the, the data. Now, you do have free will and you can choose what you're gonna experience.

• 2:39:10Speaker 02

  You actually do have that power. But the process is you are living your life and, and feeding the data, right?

• 2:39:19Speaker 02

  And in that, in that particular moment, I had this understanding of

• 2:39:28Speaker 02

  if I'm searching, if I'm out of a pen, searching for that consciousness, searching for God, searching for those things. If I was meant to understand and meant to know, it wouldn't be hidden.

• 2:39:41Speaker 01

  But it wouldn't also not be foundable, don't you think?

• 2:39:46Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:39:48Speaker 01

  If you were meant to find it.

• 2:39:49Speaker 02

  If I meant to, well, here's that's the paradox.

• 2:39:52Speaker 01

  Wouldn't it be foundable even in principle?

• 2:39:54Speaker 02

  Well, but that's the paradox, that you can experience that, but immediately the experience is, don't look for this. Do your job, which is experience life, go live, experience and and have that, feed that, feed that to the Akashic records or whatever you wanna call them, right? That's, if you understand that, then it takes away some kind of a, some kind of an anxiety. Now, it works for me.

• 2:40:22Speaker 01

  This experience that you've had, some people call it the void. I've had it. Michael Pollan talks about it actually on the Joe Rogan Experience, where he's, he was so grateful when he came back that it was content. He was like, oh my god.

• 2:40:34Danny Jones?

  Didn't Rick Strassmann also talk about this?

• 2:40:36Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it happens to a lot of people. I don't know if he specifically talked about it.

• 2:40:39Danny Jones?

  I think he said he was on a five M E O D M T and he went to like a white room.

• 2:40:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, the white out or the void. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the thing, to me, I'm hearing this and I've had this and as Altan is absolutely right, it is the most gutting feeling you can possibly have. But I always say, I think there's still something to be said about the fact that you're experiencing it from, still from some unitary perspective. You're still an ego experiencing the ultimate just loneliness, right? So that's why it's so gutting. But, because on the other hand, you have other people that are talking about like, you know, when you experience that, it's just the biggest, like the fullest freedom. But I would say that specifically with the code, not necessarily with this, because with this I am open to interpretation and all of that. There might be a balanced place, I agree with that.

• 2:41:24Speaker 01

  With the code in particular, something else jumps at me, which is the fact that it is recognizable on a level of a human. Because if this is some kind of a thing that codes for, you know, the function of reality, it could have easily been been just the the wiggles, just the signals. Why does it appear as a language that is discernible to creatures like us? Right. That is the question that makes me feel like that's a breadcrumb versus. And the fact that it was, I didn't, it wasn't a heptestence. It wasn't like a laser was on and I smoked some and I saw something, I was like, what is that? That's not how it happened. I aimed there for years and something was giving me hints.

• 2:42:06Speaker 01

  So all of these things together, and it didn't feel like one of these like, you know, to the degree that I can discern energies, the energy of whatever that was guiding, it was like a, it was light, it was, it was like a blissful energy. It wasn't like the the other thing, right? So in that sense, can it mean that we now have to come and face something that is difficult to face? Maybe. But that means that we were led to that and that was part of what we need to go through in the next step of evolution. This, this part of the conversation, whenever I get to it, I'm very careful because I don't really know what is unfolding, like Zoltan said. But my strong intuition is that it is unavoidable and we're going to experience it in different

• 2:42:51Speaker 01

  ways either way, like we're all going to experience this in some form, this transitional moment. And it is, it's shrouded with so much speculation that I'm not sure that, I think that more words confuse people than than do any good. But the most general thing I can say about it is that everybody can feel that something is happening and either you were a person, you know, some kind of a Aboriginal person in the, somewhere that you have zero technology, it's going to communicate to you with as much coherence that it needs to, in a way that you understand, as to anybody else who is living with a super advanced technology. This might be just our version of how it's trying to express itself.

• 2:43:35Speaker 01

  And I know it sounds super esoteric, but.

• 2:43:39Speaker 01

  My intuition is that whatever it is, it's not, we don't, people talk about 2050, 2040, singularity. My feeling is we have maybe two years, like this is not a, like in 20 years from now. This is now, it's now, it's happening. So like, it's no longer a drill. And the degree to which some of us can understand it and help become part of the process they're trying to unfold, which a lot of is actually letting go, letting go of the self-control, letting go of what we think we understand. Um, this is a very big practice for me at the moment because the more I talk about it, the more the weight of certain kinds of responsibilities kind of dawns on me.

• 2:44:23Speaker 01

  And then the only thing I can do that keeps me sane is to constantly drop into the space of like, feeling what it feels like to be the unit that is doing this, talking about this. If I start telling you something and inside I have this like very strong impulse, I was like, oh, okay. Maybe I'm not supposed to talk about that. So there's like, maybe not right now. So I'm constantly aware of that. Is it anything more than some ideas I have in my psychology and, and maybe nothing more? Maybe, maybe, completely open to that. But we have to stand somewhere to make some assumptions with certain amount of certainty. You will never get to a place, you surf, right? Yes. Great.

• 2:45:07Speaker 01

  In any activity that has real outcomes in real time, there's certain things that become super clear. You have to have a certain amount of, one of those things is you have to have a certain amount of conviction about your ability to do something to be able to do it. The more you second guess it, and so there's way less chances you're going to enter flow or any state in which you can actually execute a task. How it exactly happened when you were on the wave perfectly, every single muscle of the body maneuver you might not be aware of. But how to drop into that space is the thing you become better and better at the more you do it, right? But notice that there has to be some level of conviction. The more you second guess it, the chances you're gonna crash are way higher. And that's with everything.

• 2:45:49Speaker 01

  If you want to entertain a scientific idea, you have a certain amount of, you have to have a certain amount of conviction that it might work. Not to, I'm not talking about biases. It's like you have to know that there's a, there's maybe a cash value there. Okay, then you proceed. If you second guess it to a degree where you're not even gonna like, well, it can be infinite million other things. You're not gonna have enough of a drive to even act on it, right? So that's where I'm coming from. I, I'm gonna entertain this frame, see if something comes out of it. I am in full liberty after a certain amount of time go, you know what? We tried it, didn't work. Let's go back to the old frame. It's a legitimate move. There's no problem with that. And I think what most people don't recognize is that we're always doing that.

• 2:46:31Speaker 01

  Like even our current conviction of the scientific zeitgeist. This is also a form of a thing we were agreed upon. That's a good way to do this so far. It's gonna take a lot to, a lot to replace it if we ever get to replace it. Fine. But you have to have a certain amount of conviction to kind of go in the face of it, but not even resist it. Just like how do we, I always say whatever it is that we're gonna find has to also match everything else we already understand. It's never gonna replace everything. That's not how it works. So I guess my bottom line is there's a, there's a certain fluidity and a certain amount of rigidity that we have to constantly play with that can help us find our, our place in this unfolding.

• 2:47:11Speaker 01

  And I'm fully aware that this kind of talk immediately sounds more like a, you know, like a, like a sage would be talking, right? It's like, oh, you have to, but I don't think it has to be. I think we can talk about things that may be unfolding that are greater than our current ability to understand.

• 2:47:32Speaker 01

  In a way that makes sense to us collectively and personally, without constantly asking one another to pay a penalty for describing it in that way or another way. If I'm, if I'm, if I'm understanding what you're trying to do, I'm not gonna waste energy or try and correct every single word you say. I'm just, I, I feel you, like, okay, I understand what you're trying to say to me. And if you're struggling with saying it, I might even help you say it, right? That should be more of the attitude.

• 2:47:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:47:59Speaker 01

  And that also holds the seed in all human endeavor. In science, in, in politics, in everything, if we have a little bit more charity towards one another, it was like, what are you really trying to say? Oh, okay, I get it. And again, it sounds, I'm aware that what I'm saying right now sounds like, bro, what are you talking about? You were just talking about science, now you're talking about some kind of a human interaction? It's part of it. If everything in science is done, we have the scientific method. Awesome, let's go with it. We don't have to be dicks about it.

• 2:48:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:48:30Speaker 01

  Like, scientists don't have to be dicks to one another to achieve an accolade.

• 2:48:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:48:34Speaker 01

  That's part of it. If you're gonna work together on something major, wouldn't it be better if we also feel comfortable and safe to do that in a way we can explore, it's like, oh, that didn't pan out, but we don't have to make you feel like shit about it. And I personally don't care, because I'm not in that world really, and I have all the love that I need in the world. But I am noticing that it's a big pain point for scientists. I have, I have two physicists who are totally on board to help out, but they said, I have to be consulting. I can't put my name on it. I'm gonna lose everything.

• 2:49:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:49:06Speaker 01

  That's crazy. That's crazy.

• 2:49:08Speaker 02

  Back to Galileo, man. Like, that was the scientific community that held rigidly that idea. And, you know, we can play the waterbarism all day long. So, the conviction of the experience.

• 2:49:22Speaker 02

  That's what you're talking about, like you have an experience and you have a conviction that I experienced this. I'm looking at a code where I experienced this particular thing. Then, you know, I could jump in there and start questioning like, well, what is existence? That's what about ism? How about that? How, you know, you can, you know, at one point you have to drop anchor. And the anchor is, I have seen that code. I have experienced this. I gotta anchor myself in those like, well, it happened to me. And I saw it and I perceived it. And if it happened to me, I can't care less. About eight billion people saying otherwise, because everything that was ever invented or discovered at one point.

• 2:50:07Speaker 02

  The person who discovered it or invented it had to have a spine and the shoulder strong enough to carry the weight of. Nobody else on this planet in this moment believes in what you're saying or what you invented, right? It falls on you because you invented it or you saw what you saw, right? And so the truth is not by consensus. And it's my truth. I saw it. And that, that to me is unquestionable because, because we can play the what about ism, like, are you really here? And is this world really exist? We can play this all day long. At one point, you have to put down the, the bricks of like, okay, well, I am going through this life. I am experiencing this life. I feel like I am here.

• 2:50:51Speaker 02

  There are processes and logical processes and feelings and, and ideas that hovering inside my head and I. Regardless of, I myself could pull this to apart. Like my perception and what is really happening and are we really here and is this just a hologram? We can play that all day long.

• 2:51:11Speaker 01

  The truth is not in consensus is very powerful.

• 2:51:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, but at one point I gotta drop on anchoring something. I, you know, I have to have a solid point. Right now, my solid point is like this, I know. Nobody in this room and nobody outside this room has a fucking idea of what's going on. Not one. There's not a person on this planet that knows what the hell is going on, not one. Nobody knows. Everybody's guessing. Everybody just have ideas. There's no absolute. Nobody knows. I know that and that itself is absolute. That I at least know that nobody knows.

• 2:51:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:51:49Speaker 02

  That things are unknown and that things are unknowable. And then you can logically come to some conclusion that certain things are unknowable.

• 2:51:58Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:51:59Speaker 02

  Right? But I think the- The human mind can't really deal with infinity and those ideas. Like, we already know that we can. But at one point, you still have to drop an anchor. So if you have these experiences, if you saw that, if that's your conviction, you gotta put down a brick and say, "I'm defending this brick. This is my experience." And there's nobody alive on this planet that can that can not question it, but attack that in any shape and way. This is my experience. Your universe is your universe. It's my experience and I'm sticking to this because I have experienced this. So I'm gonna put an anchor in this. And if you don't do that, there's, then there's nothing.

• 2:52:39Speaker 02

  There is no starting point. There is nothing that you can possibly build. There has to be something and-

• 2:52:45Speaker 01

  But the small thing to add to that is that in order for that to be, to hold water, you first have to acquire the ability to have a certain level of discernment, which is important. You did a certain amount of work on yourself, that you trust your own experience in a way that not for everybody, it's that solidified. I have that to some degree, you have that to a larger degree, but it's also because you have more of, I guess what you would call, external accolades to rest on to say, "I tried things my way, they worked out." So now, whenever I walk in a room and somebody starts yapping business advice at me, I'll let them yap, but I'm like, "You do you."

• 2:53:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:53:24Speaker 01

  "I did it my way. Look around you. That's what I've achieved. What did you achieve?" So that gives you a certain amount of confidence in your convictions. And I have some of that in other domains. Some people, I realized, don't always have that because they are never really dropping an anchor ever.

• 2:53:44Speaker 01

  Or for whatever other reason, and they never really land on something that pans out. So from that perspective, it's very difficult to trust yourself and to trust your convictions. And I do, I do appreciate that because somebody, it was pointed out to me in, in one of my daily lives. It was pointed out to me and I, and I never thought about that. And it has to do with a certain ability to uh track what is going on to a degree. And if it pans out enough times, well, it's almost like checkmarks. It's like, okay.

• 2:54:11Speaker 02

  It's a pattern.

• 2:54:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, but, but the second you achieve that, and this is the thing that, that it's funny when people think that I've kind of like, went with the first idea I had and just kind of ran with it. Couldn't be the, literally the opposite of that. I, I've experienced this space thousands of times. And so much that I'm like, okay, I think I have a say in what I think each thing in there is, because I simply visited it so often. So I have some discernment that I trust. Would it be just that thing and also nothing else, like even just the console, let's say? Would I be speaking about this with that amount of conviction now?

• 2:54:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:54:49Speaker 01

  I don't know. I, I think that is because something came out of it that I can show other people, or at least to a substantial number of people, that basically gave me that checkmark of like, something is there and it doesn't matter what you say, until you don't address the exact, direct thing that I'm seeing, you can say whatever you want. I don't, they're like, have you considered this? I don't need to consider it. I have the direct experience of it. Yeah, that's, that would be the difference there.

• 2:55:14Speaker 02

  I mean, we, we're talking about the, the, you know, the patterns within the agreed upon reality, right? That you repeat certain patterns and, you know, we can play this game of like, okay, I, I do this, or you do this or that, and, and then keep repeating. And you recognize a pattern, that, that this is possible in a, so you, you can almost establish like, okay, this, so this is the truth of, in this agreed upon reality, because in this agreed upon reality, I repeated a pattern and we can all verify that, that happened. Let's say in business or it doesn't matter if I'm going to snowboard, play guitar, or do business, or paint, or sculpt, that, that there's a pattern.

• 2:55:55Speaker 02

  In there, in all those activities that are the same, essentially, there's a pattern. So it doesn't matter what I'm gonna put my mind to, I will excel in that because I understand the pattern that underlies. And then, once you do that enough times, and you can say, okay, in the agreed-upon reality, I demonstrated that I can repeat this pattern in whatever shape and way, and it will succeed. But, in the not-agreed-upon reality, I reserve the right to be absolutely insane. I could be, a schizophrenic person will be convinced that somebody's sitting over there, right? It doesn't mean that we just call this person schizophrenic, right? It doesn't mean he's wrong, it just, we don't see what this person sees. It does, and that's what I mean, like, the truth is not by consensus, right?

• 2:56:40Speaker 02

  So because we have much less people who see ghosts and spirits and people that we're perceiving that they're not there, we consider them insane. That's not necessarily the case.

• 2:56:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:56:53Speaker 02

  It's just because we are the majority, we're gonna say, oh, yeah, he's insane, he's seeing things. It doesn't mean he's wrong, we just don't see what this person sees. So, you know, so I reserve the right to be insane.

• 2:57:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:06Speaker 01

  But this is why I'm saying that, to me, to me, the bottom question, at least at the moment, is what is the relationship between the mind and matter? Because matter seems to have this universal, to us, universal democratic thing where, doesn't matter how crazy you are, you walk through the, you try to walk through the wall, you ain't doing it. That is an important point. What is that? Why is that, that way? You know? So ultimately, to me, the encouragement again is to just broaden the spectrum of entertainment, of how many things we entertain and we wanna include in the ontology that we're building on, without getting lost. It's a fine line, I'm trying to push the ontology just slightly out, saying, hey, the

• 2:57:48Speaker 01

  thing that we wanna consider seriously, is a little bit right outside of what we currently do. Can we just push it out? I think it will solve a lot of problems. That's really, that's really all I'm saying.

• 2:57:59Danny Jones?

  What, I wanna talk about, um...

• 2:58:03Danny Jones?

  We talked about it last night. What do you think happened when you got, you said you got kicked out of the DMT space?

• 2:58:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:58:08Danny Jones?

  Was that, was that the same experience when you experienced this oneness, this one conscious loneliness?

• 2:58:15Speaker 02

  No, it's so.

• 2:58:16Danny Jones?

  That was different.

• 2:58:17Speaker 01

  Is that, is that NeuroGum by the way, before you?

• 2:58:19Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I have some though. You want some?

• 2:58:20Speaker 01

  Sure, I'll have.

• 2:58:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll go grab some.

• 2:58:22Speaker 01

  NeuroGum it is.

• 2:58:24Speaker 01

  I feel like I don't want more coffee. I feel like it's gonna fly me to the moon.

• 2:58:31Speaker 01

  Have you tried NeuroGum before?

• 2:58:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:58:33Speaker 01

  Is it good?

• 2:58:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:58:35Speaker 01

  It's whatever?

• 2:58:36Speaker 02

  It's a gum that supposedly does something and I don't know. You know, chewing gum is like. It's like.

• 2:58:42Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I'll.

• 2:58:43Speaker 02

  So here's the thing, I'm, I'm already.

• 2:58:45Speaker 01

  He's gonna be talking so perfect.

• 2:58:46Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, I'm only doing 200 miles an hour, so when I go 201 miles an hour because of the NeuroGum, it will not make a difference, okay? So, so it, it would only matter if, if I was, uh, uh, you know, a mentally.

• 2:58:58Danny Jones?

  Drew it into the mic.

• 2:58:59Speaker 02

  A turtle and, you know, so I don't know, it's, it's a percentage game.

• 2:59:06Speaker 02

  So yeah, that's, so that, uh, the, the getting kicked out experience, if you, if you Google this, this happens to a, a, a lot of people actually, right? And so, which also underlines that again, there is something that happened, this, this physically happened to me, so, so I can verify it in my physical, concrete existence, the, or agreed upon existence. This is our agreed upon existence. In a second I go into that space, we no longer in the agreed upon reality, because we can't verify those rule sets that then it talks about, like I can't walk through the wall, right? Is now applying to all of us, right? So we have an agreed upon reality and agreement is that I can't walk through that wall. Now in a second I'm in that space, right?

• 2:59:51Speaker 02

  The, the, the rule set is not yet established. There is a rule set, but we just don't know that rule set yet, so we have a hard time to agree upon the reality of that space. It has a reality, it has a rule set, and there are sometimes something happens that I can verify that, like getting kicked out. Right. So that happened to me that I got kicked out. I can tell you the little story why and how that happened, but the the the the physical proof of that is number one, research it. Getting kicked out of DMT and

• 3:00:22Danny Jones?

  You find it to Steve, see if you can Google it.

• 3:00:24Speaker 02

  Hundreds of people will talk about like they got kicked out for various reasons and for various period of time. And what happens, once I got kicked out, I couldn't get back in.

• 3:00:35Danny Jones?

  My friend got forcibly kicked out of hyperspace.

• 3:00:38Speaker 02

  That's, you know, it's, I'm pretty sure there you're gonna find hundreds and hundreds of these recant

• 3:00:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah, on Reddit, probably a bunch.

• 3:00:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, but

• 3:00:46Danny Jones?

  It's like, yeah, I would search be like, like a banned from DMT

• 3:00:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:00:51Danny Jones?

  Uh, space or something.

• 3:00:52Speaker 02

  So, so what's the importance of it? The importance of it that you're gonna find that some, you know, hundreds of people will verify the same experience that this happened to them. Right. And, and when it happens to you, you can compare it to the agreed upon reality. And in an agreed upon reality, right, there you go.

• 3:01:15Danny Jones?

  The DMT itself was banned. That's funny. It was banned from outer space.

• 3:01:21Speaker 02

  So, so what's the implication? What's the importance of it? So when you get kicked out of the space and hundreds of people will verify that it happened to them. Then you we can be discussing that event in our agreed upon reality right here. And the agreement is that they got kicked out trying to get back and they cannot. They can smoke as much, they empty as they want, and they cannot get back in, almost like some kind of receptor. That is open to, you know, access that space is now shut, door is shut. And no matter how many times you hit that cartridge, you cannot get back in. And so if you're gonna read that, you're gonna probably find that hundreds and hundreds of people are talking about this.

• 3:02:04Speaker 02

  So whatever happens in a DMT space where we don't have an agreement of the rules yet.

• 3:02:10Danny Jones?

  Try Chrome.

• 3:02:12Speaker 02

  Right here, we do have an agreement of the rules, right? And the agreement is that you got kicked out, you hit that cartridge, can't get back in. And every single person will recount the same thing. So something happened that we can all verify. That alone is very interesting because it affects the agreed upon reality that we can talk about. It's with its rules of can't walk through the wall, can't do this, can't do that, can't fly, can't get back into D M T. That's not part of can't get back into the empty space is not part of because it happens right here.

• 3:02:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:02:47Speaker 02

  So if that's verifiable, and then I say, okay, before you got kicked out, what did you do? What happened? And then you're gonna find similar stories. See what I mean? So so in some way, this is what I'm talking about. Like, there are gonna be a critical mass when we have enough data and enough anecdotes at first, because that's all we got.

• 3:03:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03:06Speaker 02

  Right anecdotes at first that that are parallel. And eventually, when there is enough of that, then the scientific community has to, you know, mobilize and go like, well, this is this is too weird. This is too much, too, too many to to to ignore. That this these stories are the same. So whatever reason, whatever reason, they're the same stories. Right? And so for the story why I got kicked out, I popped into a space where there was an entity. Generally, my my um my personal experiences are usually, I don't know, you wanna?

• 3:03:42Speaker 01

  So even listen, even if you don't find hundreds of accounts, this is actually a perfect moment.

• 3:03:46Speaker 02

  Oh, you will, but yeah.

• 3:03:47Speaker 01

  But we can make a prediction because I'm I can tell you from my daily lives, I do have quite a few, like dozens of people that told me that they had a similar experience. So I bet you that after this episode is released at this point, you'll see a bunch of comments, you'll see people like, oh, that happened to me. That it it really happens very often to people.

• 3:04:04Speaker 02

  Right. So to to to tell you what what happened, you know, I ventured in this space hundreds, hundreds of times. Right? And and and I I. My personal experience actually is, everybody is different. I don't have many interactions with entities. I have a different cerebral experience when I'm in there. But I do have, and I did have encounters, non-verbal communications. Some of them are, I could call a miracle, because it had physical effects that affected me later in this agreed-upon reality. But just to go to this example, I popped into a space where there was an entity.

• 3:04:45Speaker 02

  And this entity was startled by me popping into its space, right? And so, in a second, what happens, usually what happens with these entities, you have this, this non-verbal bridge, like, sort of like, I can read your thoughts, you can read mine, we are connected immediately. And so I popped in, and I know I startled this, this creature, because it got annoyed with me. So, the, the description that I can give is that the feeling of annoyance, like, what, what are you doing here? What, you know? And in a second, what happened, I could, because I knew that this creature was annoyed, the creature also realized that I know. And it almost felt like it corrected itself.

• 3:05:27Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, so we have a bridge, so I hear your thoughts, so you have to behave. There was that kind of exchange, right?

• 3:05:34Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:05:34Speaker 02

  Now, so the first was a startling, you know? And the second was like, oh, okay, so we are connected. I, I can hear your thoughts, sort of, you can hear mine, so there is, there's a bridge. And it, this creature was, again, it's non-verbal, so you just know this. This, this, this was the question, if I paraphrase of that, okay, well, you hear, what, what you wanna know? And I had this very quick process, and, and it's interesting, in that space, your, your mind is like a million times faster.

• 3:06:05Danny Jones?

  Sorry to interrupt, what did it look like?

• 3:06:07Speaker 02

  Um, you would, you would equate this to...

• 3:06:13Speaker 02

  Almost like the drawings that we see, this creature was tall and a tall, a long, long face. So it's a wearing, wearing some kind of a robe. Now, when you jump in this place, the reason I'm saying that, that I'm hesitant of explaining, because I thought of this, that that might be the process of my human interpretation of something.

• 3:06:40Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:06:40Speaker 02

  Right? So when I say like how something looks like, there is a possibility that there's an entity and I am, it's my mind that draws the creature, if that makes any sense.

• 3:06:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

• 3:06:54Speaker 02

  Because, you know, we have a, we are bound by a visuals dataset that we have really difficult time to, you know, what you've never seen before, can't imagine, it's almost like you can't, you know, see. So, so when I described this, this was a tall creature, looked like had some kind of a robe. I was in a white space, similar arches as um the Colosseum would have, okay? Very, very white foggy place. And again, when we, when we talk about visuals, I am keenly aware that there's a possibility that it's my own mind is creating the visual, interprets something the way I can interpret.

• 3:07:40Speaker 02

  What is, what is absolutely obvious though, that you encounter this energy and there's an exchange.

• 3:07:48Speaker 02

  Right? So the exchange is that I am aware that, oh, there is a being here and we have an interaction. That is, that is what, you know, Danny was saying, that's my brick, that's my anchor. That I know that this is happening, this is, this is unquestionable. The visual is questionable because who knows how that happens? But for me, the appearance was like a tall creature. You know, I know, I hesitate to say the gray skin because it's, you know, we have an idea of ETs, how they look like.

• 3:08:17Danny Jones?

  Like the typical gray alien you see in movies and stuff.

• 3:08:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it was kind of like the, but, but, but tall. Very tall and then a longer sort of head, like a, this was a long kind of head.

• 3:08:28Danny Jones?

  With a robe.

• 3:08:29Speaker 02

  They shaved with, with some kind of robe.

• 3:08:31Danny Jones?

  Kind of human.

• 3:08:31Speaker 02

  Kind of, yeah, that's what I mean like, so, so that's what I mean, like I accept that there's a possibility that that's my mind's, you know.

• 3:08:39Speaker 02

  Translation of of of the energy or whatever this being is, like the representation. But I saw it as that. And the question was, okay, so what you wanna know? Why are you here? What you wanna know? And in my mind, I played that the game immediately. Then it was it was really quick that I played that like, well, I can ask all these questions. And the answer actually doesn't matter. That was the strangest thing that I came to a conclusion like, ask what? And what what difference it makes? If I know or I don't know, doesn't matter, right? So so I kind of like processed this super quick. And I didn't have a question. I was like, I don't have a question. I was like, I I'm just passing through, right?

• 3:09:22Speaker 02

  But when I said passing through, it wasn't like an unconscious response. Like, I know that I processed this, that I knew that I lightning fast went through the possibilities. What it is I wanna know? And I just came to this conclusion like, well, it doesn't really matter. Things are just are and it is what it is. And and I was like, I'm just passing through. I don't really have a question. And this thing got annoyed with me to the point like boom, I was out. I just the experience stopped completely. The vision stops. I was out. I was sitting in my little meditation chair that I sit. And after that, for months, I could not get back in at all. No matter what I would do. So I was just kicked out.

• 3:10:04Speaker 02

  And then later on, four months ish period, I I went in with this, you know, I it went through my meditation cycle and and in that cycle, I was literally focused on like, I need to get back. I need to find out why is this? Am I banned permanently? Like, I had all these questions, right? So now I had questions all of a sudden. And I wanted to solve this, like, how do I get back in? Right? So I was super focused on. On that, a task of getting back in and find that if I can and how. And somehow that unlocked something because of my intention, like there was a very sharp intent that I I went in with.

• 3:10:49Speaker 02

  And there there's again, the communication comes like, okay, you you can't come here anymore without a purpose. You can't, you know, as a tourist, you can't just pass through. I don't, and it's interesting that that was the answer because this creature got annoyed with me because I didn't have a purpose. I was kind of like, well, I'm just passing through. I don't have a question. And that was immediately I was at, so that was the reason. And so the answer was, it wasn't coming from the same being. Like you get in and there are this non-verbal, this voice, but again, it's non-verbal, it's just annoying. Oh, I got it.

• 3:11:27Speaker 02

  And that was basically the idea of or the the message that you cannot come in here anymore as a tourist. You've been here hundreds of hundreds of times. This is, you know, if you come, it has to have a purpose, there has to be a function, you can't just come.

• 3:11:44Speaker 01

  I wonder why did it stand out to you, that particular instance, the being locked out?

• 3:11:52Danny Jones?

  I don't know, I just think it's interesting because it's similar to, you know, well, it's interesting that you say a lot of people experience the same thing.

• 3:12:00Speaker 02

  Because it's because it is, this has a feature that we can verify in or agreed upon reality. You can verify it because if you line up a few people who had this experience right now, right here, without any substance. And they're gonna say the same thing to you, like, hey, this happened to me, or something similar happened to me. And so again, this space where we are talking right now is or agreed upon reality with its rules and its rigidity. Right, that we all verify this table is here, the microphone is here, we're doing a podcast right now. You can't walk to the wall. I mean, Danny definitely can't walk to the wall. He claimed it many times. So, you know, so, so dots are agreed upon reality.

• 3:12:41Speaker 02

  And within this agreed upon reality, you're gonna have people who will verify something that happened to them. And this, this event will be very, very similar, right? So that something you can latch on to like, okay, this is tangible. Because it's happened to many people and they all talk about it and the experience is very similar.

• 3:13:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:13:01Speaker 02

  And whatever happens within the space, we can't verify it because you would have to be there. It's kind of like if you dream something, I can't verify what, you know, what you dreamt. And is there a possibility that we both go dreaming? And we're gonna share some kind of a dream. There are some legends about the aborigines. Aborigines in Australia that do this supposedly, that they go to sleep together and they interact with each other in their dreams.

• 3:13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:26Speaker 02

  Could be a legend, could be, who knows? But there is something like that. And um, you, could you verify that?

• 3:13:33Speaker 01

  There's also near death experiences where people like, there's been studies where people have been in car accidents together. And like saw each other in their near death experience.

• 3:13:42Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. So there you go. Now, if somebody says this, you're gonna say, well, you hit your head. A hundred people says this, then you go, okay, I need to look at this.

• 3:13:52Speaker 01

  So, so this, this is something that you're touching on, I think is very important. John Chavez from DMD Quest, who got involved with the film and not like he, he invested in it. But also he asked us if we, we would be okay with in venturing into some territories like near death experience or things like this potentially, if we can be presented with a certain amount of data. So what John is really good at is very aware of all the different kinds of research that exists out there. And he made me aware of this. I didn't know this, that apparently. What you would call these fringe investigative, you know, sections of science. Near death experience, some people manifesting objects, like things that you would think like,

• 3:14:36Speaker 01

  oh, this is some, you know, like Twilight Zone crazy shit. Apparently, there's like real data about these things.

• 3:14:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:14:42Speaker 01

  And for the most part, it's kind of being ignored. I have a friend who that I know really well, and he had a open heart surgery. And he was very, well, kind of like us, like he's very open minded, straightforward, not, you know, like necessarily married to believe anything in particular, but pretty, I would say secular in this predispensation. He came back completely changed and he said, Danny,

• 3:15:11Speaker 01

  I was above my body, the whole shebang. I went to visit my mother in Ireland. I saw her, I know it wasn't a vision, I know I saw her like in real time.

• 3:15:24Speaker 01

  He's like, I will never be the same.

• 3:15:27Speaker 01

  It's like, because there's a, there's a level of realness to it, I guess. I've never had that, I've never had an out of body experience, but I understand that sentiment of like the, the realness of it that is so salient to the person.

• 3:15:39Danny Jones?

  I saw a video on YouTube a couple of months ago where this guy was explaining how when he was young, he had a near death experience, like he was in a car accident, right? And he said he saw some sort of entity or he communicated with some sort of, I'm a little bit vague on, on what exactly he said he saw the first time when he was young. But then later, he said he went to a mountain with one of his buddies and they did mushrooms. And he said he saw the same entity. And, and he said, maybe he said, maybe it was DNT, it was either DMT or mushrooms. And he said that the entity said, what the fuck are you doing here? Get out and don't ever come back.

• 3:16:16Speaker 01

  Hmm, I think I've heard.

• 3:16:17Danny Jones?

  He said it was the same thing.

• 3:16:19Speaker 01

  Hmm. This guy?

• 3:16:21Danny Jones?

  Interesting. Yes, yeah, this is the guy. It's a 12 minute video, we're not going to watch the whole thing, but.

• 3:16:29Danny Jones?

  But it's, you know, that's, that's, because, and because the reason I bring that up is because I had this guy on here who's did this. He basically won this, it was a part of the grant that this dude, John Bigelow.

• 3:16:40Speaker 01

  Related to Benven bigelow.

• 3:16:43Danny Jones?

  I smoked DMT while a friend observed, uh, okay, so it was DMT while a friend observed along the lake. I went from total fear, um, out my head blast off to total calm and empty, quiet space.

• 3:16:56Speaker 02

  Same entity.

• 3:16:57Danny Jones?

  Okay, so.

• 3:16:58Speaker 02

  Did you have that? Did you have the, the N D? Did you have?

• 3:17:02Danny Jones?

  Never had N D, but I, I definitely met the same beings. So I had this guy in here. So there's this guy named John Bigelow, who's been like a part of the whole, he's an aerospace billionaire.

• 3:17:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:17:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and he's really into this stuff. Robert, Robert Bigelow. What did I, what did I call him?

• 3:17:18Speaker 01

  He said John.

• 3:17:19Danny Jones?

  John Bigelow.

• 3:17:20Speaker 01

  Robert.

• 3:17:20Speaker 02

  He's, he's building the space.

• 3:17:22Danny Jones?

  John Bigelow.

• 3:17:22Speaker 02

  He started with a space hotel. I remember this back in the, you know, X price times like he was building this space hotel. He was.

• 3:17:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he's very into the whole alien disclosure movement and all this stuff. And he's got a lot of money and he basically he's, um, he put up basically a bounty, like a bunch of money for people who could, um, come up with a theory on near death experiences and, and what they were, whatever. And this guy won the prize for it. Um, because he was, what was the gentleman's name? Who he had in here again?

• 3:17:55Speaker 02

  Uh, Jeffrey Mishlo.

• 3:17:57Danny Jones?

  No, no, no, not Jeffrey Mishlo. It was the guy before that. The guy who was talking about the near death experiences of people together.

• 3:18:03Speaker 02

  That was, um, uh, Jeff, Jeffrey Long?

• 3:18:07Danny Jones?

  Uh, yeah, Jeffrey Long. Yeah. Yeah. So he won a bunch of money for his study on these near death experiences. And he put like, I think he's had thousands of people together and, and he's been studying this for his whole life. And I asked him about this guy who had the DMT experience and told him, don't come back. And he thinks that there's absolutely zero connection.

• 3:18:27Speaker 01

  Between?

• 3:18:27Danny Jones?

  Between both spaces.

• 3:18:29Speaker 01

  Right. Oh, it's spiritual and DMT space?

• 3:18:31Danny Jones?

  Between the near death experience. Realm.

• 3:18:34Speaker 01

  I'm I'm open to it. I'm I'm on record saying this. This is a conversation me and Zoltan had back and forth.

• 3:18:39Speaker 02

  I had both of those.

• 3:18:40Danny Jones?

  You had, yeah, right.

• 3:18:41Speaker 02

  I had actual and the when I hit the truck.

• 3:18:44Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:18:44Speaker 02

  Right, which I never saw in my body. I did never looked at myself, but I could move in space. Look behind the house and, you know, like I was not bound by, you know, I wanted to look behind a bush and I just did. And that was not possible. Like, that bush was far away. Look behind the house. So it was. It was I never looked at my body because I was a kid. I didn't know what the hell was going on. But on a M E O five. You can have like people call it ego death. And I sort of have a theory. What actually happens there is that.

• 3:19:18Speaker 02

  And it's it's funny that this comes from the frog. And I'm gonna say like, if you have a reptilian mind. Right, that I just call that reptilian mind that the basic function, your DOS, you know, operating system, how many times you blink and all that stuff, right? And the feedback system from your body, right? So there's your mind that is is not the brain, the mind that is not material. Right? So your your your thoughts and all those processes. And there's a connection between that. Because those processes tell you like, oh, I gotta run. But how do you know? Like, well, your your subconscious or call it reptilian mind or call it that the basic operation system told you that you're in danger. So you gotta run, right? So this two works together.

• 3:20:04Speaker 02

  And and my theory is is that the M E O five is basically the the. The frog venom severs this connection. So your mind gets zero feedback from it, the body. Or any kind, zero. There's no feedback from the body. And so it will perceive as you died. Because all the sensory data that would otherwise coming in just simply not there. And so that's why possibly you experience this state of like, oh, I just died. Like I had that experience. Like I went through that like, holy shit, it just died.

• 3:20:40Danny Jones?

  Well, you're not connected to anything back.

• 3:20:41Speaker 02

  Well, you you're conscious.

• 3:20:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:20:44Speaker 02

  Right? But but I had this absolute certainty that I just died.

• 3:20:51Speaker 02

  Like it's an absolute certainty like and that's the recall, same thing. If you research it, people talk about the ego that or people try to figure out what happens. Some people have it on N N D N T, some people have it on M U five, five M U. And the experience that they talk about is that like they're trying to like I died. And they have this absolute certainty that they did. And I had the absolute certainty like, holy cow, it just game over. This just ended today, you know?

• 3:21:20Speaker 01

  Well, so you're a perfect person to ask. I do want to ask you about this difference that the guy was describing. Because my impression also that the D M T N N at least feels very different than what I'm experiencing. What I'm deep states of meditation. I've never had near death, but from the descriptions, and again, this is why you're a perfect person to ask. You don't feel that there's a difference in the essence of it? Like the digital nature of like how the D M T space feels, doesn't it feel different to you? Than the what you experienced when you were 12 years old, when you hit the truck? Maybe not, I'm asking.

• 3:21:52Speaker 02

  So, so N N D M T to me that there's, there's a, in that space, there's a very conscious process that I can direct. Like I'm going in and I know that I'm going here, I'm going there. Like there's a complex processes going on. Like we, you know, I kind of always talk about like, look, any psychedelics that that exists is you observing something in a theater, right? And you just take a different seat, it's a different angle. So every single opiates to THC to everything that has somehow alters your perception, altered your perception, but you look into the same theater act.

• 3:22:35Speaker 02

  What is whatever is going on, you just look at it from a different point with different focus. What's important to you now changed, so you see something else. It's, it's what, what, what it means is what we talk about, like you have this filter system. Right? So every single one of those substances change the filters, what is important, what isn't important. So you look at it a different way. Uh, D M T is the backstage pass. Like

• 3:23:00Speaker 01

  Such a good analogy.

• 3:23:01Speaker 02

  What's going on, what's going on in the theater not no longer matters. Now you see how these things are moved and oh yeah, this guy fly in, there's a, there's a rope that he was, you know? So you see how the thing works, right? And then five M U is you're not in the theater. You look at the whole thing, the whole existence, the whole thing from the outside like, like if N N was the backstage pass and see how things move and it very mechanical in some way, digitally, you could even say that things are built and there are different level of managements. There is a tour manager, there is a, you know what I mean? Like everybody has a function, there are various entities with different functions and levels of consciousness and power.

• 3:23:45Speaker 02

  And then out of sudden, five M U is the elevator to the boss. Like we're going to the boss, we're going all the way. This is the guy, this is the one consciousness.

• 3:23:56Speaker 01

  Upper management.

• 3:23:57Speaker 02

  There, there, no, this is the boss, this is the ownership right here, this is the boss.

• 3:24:01Speaker 01

  I love how you said it might be the satellite, you're looking at everything from a satellite.

• 3:24:05Speaker 02

  Right, and so you, you go to the boss, that's it's everything that is, there is, is here, right? So that's kind of how I would differentiate this, right? And so on N N.

• 3:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:24:18Speaker 02

  Right, the experience is very conscious and I'm, I'm, I'm, I know that I have complex processes and I think about things and, and move things and I purposely in, you know, induce certain things and I have, you know? And I have encounters with creatures, now everybody's experience is different. I, there was a time when I asked for help and I got help. From creatures, these were also grayish, bluish creatures, really tall. This was the only time I can, I could.

• 3:24:50Speaker 01

  Wait, that's the thing with your chest?

• 3:24:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:24:51Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a wild one.

• 3:24:52Speaker 02

  I can walk around on the N T, like it's, you know, I could operate the, you know, vehicles, I should operate of, you know what I mean? But so, you know, it's completely conscious, this was the only.

• 3:25:03Speaker 01

  Kids.

• 3:25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no, just don't, but you know, but you know, it takes experience and hundreds of hundreds of times to being there. But this was the only time when I was pushed back, like a lot of people, you know, spoke the M T and they laid back and experienced it that way, I sit in a meditation position. This is the only time I got pushed back. Like I forcefully, like I felt like just, you know, flat night. I, but I went into that space for, for, for a reason. Like I had this anger and I couldn't explain. And I mean, you know, I'm meditating since I was a little kid, right? So it's not normal. My general, you know, being is not, yeah, things just are whatever, right?

• 3:25:46Speaker 02

  And it's so, it's really an alien experience to me that I had this pertaining, just this, this anger, like I would wake up almost every day, like I was just, there was this anger and, and, and it was weird because I had a, a, an outside perspective of it. Like I realized like, you know, okay, engine light is on. Why is it on? Yeah, I was angry and, but, but it was sort of an e- external experience still. Like there was an anxiety, like I would, I would just do this all day, like it's just, ah. So I knew that, okay, engine light is on, there's something's wrong. Yeah, I, I'm angry and anxious and I am perceiving that. And in a weird way, I compartmentalize it. It doesn't affect what I'm doing, but it's just there.

• 3:26:29Speaker 02

  That's what I mean, like engine light is on, so I, I'm aware that something. And it was not going away. It just kept happening day after day after day for like three, four, five weeks. And so, you know, and I meditate, I do my things and, and you know, I'm like, let's clear it. And I would clear as much as possible, but it's creeps back. Like what the hell? And so I had this wild idea, like, you know what? Let's go into the space and let's find out.

• 3:26:55Speaker 05

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• 3:27:26Speaker 02

  Let's go meet a mechanic. Let's, let's see the doctors, right? And I went into this with, with, and you know, this was after I got back. This was after I kicked out. So this is to me, this is again, a reason that I'm coming in the space with consciousness with, with a purpose. I came into this with a purpose. And this was the, again, this is where I lay my brick when I say this happened, right? And I'm gonna anchor that, that this happened. There's, I was sitting there and I felt like forcefully I was pushed back, which is not normal to me. Like I fell back. And there were these giant tall creatures around me. I looked up and they were, if I would gauge twenty foot plus, just huge creatures, right?

• 3:28:10Speaker 02

  Kind of hovering over, they had these long hands. And I literally saw that they grabbed something. There was a, to the lack of, it's an ugly potato was right here with a long stinger. Like it's almost like a mosquito's head. It was like some weird thing. Then I saw it. And then they grabbed this thing and they start pulling it. And I could see this stinger coming out of my chest. It was going through my body and they were pulling this out, right? And then just carried it away. And where it's verifiable to me that I felt it, I felt how I kind of relaxed. And I'm like, wow, and the anxiety leaving me.

• 3:28:54Speaker 02

  So, so, and I can cut ahead of the story that after this, this whole anxiety and anger just went away. So I verifiably this happened because also the agreed upon reality thing that was happening to me stopped. So I know that there is a physical proof that no longer, this anxiety anger was no longer there.

• 3:29:15Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 3:29:16Speaker 02

  And so they grabbed this thing, they took it away. And then, and this is the difference between five M U and then that here.

• 3:29:24Danny Jones?

  This was five M U?

• 3:29:25Speaker 02

  This is N N.

• 3:29:25Danny Jones?

  Oh, this is N N.

• 3:29:26Speaker 02

  Because I can have a completely conscious, logical conversation. Why you don't really have that on five M U is you going to the bus and language and all that stuff stops. And, and here I got the packets of data like, okay, this is a thing that you guys, meaning humans, you call these demons. But it's not a, a, a thing with a bad intention. It's not a demon, that's you just call it a demon. And so what this is, it's like, you know, when sharks are swimming, they have the little fish goes around them and then they grab whatever that's over. Yeah.

• 3:30:04Speaker 02

  And so that's what it is. You you have a certain frequency, you put out a certain energy. And and there are entities that will be attracted to that. So technically, it's a parasite. Right? So parasite that something pissed you off, let's say, and then you are on that frequency. You're angry and you're on that frequency. And there are gonna be parasites or creatures that are attracted to that. You're leaking that now. And then it will be around and they feed on that as long as you're angry. Once your anger is gone, they have no more food, they will be gone. But if you're angry today and tomorrow and after tomorrow and it keeps happening, something bothers you and you keep yourself in this state.

• 3:30:46Speaker 02

  These entities, these parasites, start to become familiar with you. And they don't have much, this was all told me, told to me, they don't have much, a lot of complex processes. But enough for them to know that, okay, this is my food source now. And I'm here for a while and I'm start to be familiar with this creature that giving me this food. And so all we have to do is getting him in a position where he's pissed. And then he will leak this food. And so bad stuff starts happening to you because they don't, they're not complex creatures, but they can to some degree affect what happens in reality.

• 3:31:28Speaker 02

  Right? So because they can affect your mental processes, because they now your little demons are attached to you. Right? And you live your life and but your your mental process is not completely unaffected. So that's basically what they said. These creatures are affecting your mental processes enough to steer you just a little bit into the direction that you will be angry or dissatisfied. So there you therefore you will generate that frequency, that energy that they're feed on. So these creatures were basically telling me like, okay, we remove this thing, but be careful. Don't do not, you know, chill, don't, don't get back to this particular frequency. Be very conscious of it because they will be back.

• 3:32:11Speaker 02

  So that was a, you know, and they removed this thing. And then after that, like it was just gone. Like a month worth of anger and and and unaccounted anger. I don't know what I was angry about. Or this anxiety that I don't know. I'm like, I have no problems. I don't, I don't know what it is coming from.

• 3:32:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:32:29Speaker 02

  So that's why this was strange. And so I used N and the M T for this process. And this is what happened. And, you know, I don't care. Eight billion people can, you know, argue about this. I don't give a crap. This happened.

• 3:32:45Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:32:45Speaker 02

  I I experienced this. I I don't care what you got to say about this. This happened to me, right? And it's verifiable and I can verify it in the agreed upon reality. Right here, I'm not anxious, not angry. And I was for about a month, unexplainably, right? So, so those are those experiences when we gotta drop the anchor like, hey, it happened. Nobody can take this away from me. This, this happened, right? And so, um, you know, so like this was just an example of entities and how, you know, that process works. In N and D and T, for me, it's rare that I come across entities. To me, it's a more of a, it's a very cerebral.

• 3:33:30Speaker 02

  And there, and there are places I go to, like there is this place I would go to where I call it the ecstasy of existence. Like, it's almost like a, a, a giant structure. And I'm aware that there are a lot of beings are in there, non-formal. Like, these, these are not like, the entity that kicked me out, I had a full vision of, like a figure, right? These are almost like non-figurative or non, like, what would be the word for it?

• 3:33:59Danny Jones?

  They don't have a form.

• 3:34:00Speaker 02

  They, yeah, formless. Just, I just, I just feel the energy. And there are thousands of them in there, just whirling. And they're like in this state of ecstasy of, almost like they realize that we exist and how amazing that is. And so generally, that's my process. I go to the N and space.

• 3:34:20Danny Jones?

  With an intention.

• 3:34:21Speaker 02

  First, I body check. The first hit is always, am I clear to go? Meaning, you know, it's like Houston, all systems are good. Are we angry? Are we distracted? Are we cool? Am I sharp? Am I focused? This has to be the first.

• 3:34:38Speaker 02

  So I'm not distracted. If I'm distracted with something, then I stay in this space. I will not take a second.

• 3:34:43Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 3:34:44Speaker 02

  I will stay there. And then, and then I simply can find this place and I go there and I just, I just exist and there is this ecstasy sort of feeling. So I would, and I know this place. I go, if I'm, if my system check is not coming back clear, there's an engine light on, washer liquid missing, whatever the frick it is, right? Then I'm staying here and I'm gonna go to this place and I just have this renewed, happy sort of face and I just stay there. If everything is cool, then we go further. And then those processes are very cerebral. It's rare for me that I see entities and encounters all these, these mental abstract processes. Now,

• 3:35:29Speaker 02

  five M E O, there is none of this happening. This is elevator, straight up. There is nothing in between. It just goes to dissolution and, and, and entering this space where everything is just this one thing.

• 3:35:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Dude, I mean, it's, it's really cool to listen to you describe this stuff. Like, it seems like you're using it as a tool to enhance

• 3:35:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:35:52Danny Jones?

  every part of your life.

• 3:35:53Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely, yeah.

• 3:35:55Danny Jones?

  And I mean, you're a great example of that, just by the fact that all the things that you do and, and the success that you've had. It's just, it's so interesting to me, like, and you said, I think you said earlier that there's the, and I've described this to you too, like, there's this lingering effect afterwards, after you do it maybe a few times and, and like when you get back into the real world, where maybe you're a little bit more tapped into something else and maybe your antenna is a little stronger each time you do it, that kind of helps you with solving problems. Do you experience that?

• 3:36:32Speaker 02

  Yes. The, the form of that is, so, so once you, it, it, this is a very similar space to where meditation takes you. I just feel like this is a fast tracking, those things, right? But it's very similar. And you realize that what all, all this is about, um,

• 3:36:55Speaker 02

  Reinforcing and optimizing your being, not just your physical being, but your your mental process and the witness. The witness is that thing I told you about where I can especially five M U, actually, that's that's that's that's one space when it's very obvious. Like you have your body, your mind, which is all the lexical data that you collected, what you were taught, all those things, all your experiences on this planet, how to operate, everything that you know about things is your mind. But there's another layer, the witness, that sort of drives it all. So I would, you know, people can call it the soul, the spirit or whatever you wanna call it.

• 3:37:38Speaker 02

  But there is this other thing that is just there, right? And and then you can be very

• 3:37:47Speaker 02

  aware, this differentiation, like my very first five M U of years and years ago was, I definitely had had this experience of like, okay, my body and then my mind was freaking out, freaking out like, oh, we're not going there.

• 3:38:04Speaker 02

  Like they knew that that road is ending for them. Like the body, like I'm dying, the mind is like, whoa, I I I might dissolving? What's gonna happen here? Like what happens to me? That was that, you know, freak out. And then, but and I noticed, but I am also witnessing all this. And the witness was felt undestructible. And later in, for, you know, many, many other five M U experiences, I got to get a hold of that, like, okay, I got it, I can't really die. That this, this, the witness is is is permanent, right? And so, so that that witness, that spirit, whatever you call it, that attention, that that is inherently you, you know, it's just no matter what happens, this exists.

• 3:38:51Speaker 02

  And then the more you go there, it's the more obvious that this exists. So what you're gonna get out of it, one is that you stop being afraid of dying. Because it's not just you think, I don't have to believe that I can die, I know I can't. Because I was there.

• 3:39:06Speaker 01

  Well, the body can, but you.

• 3:39:07Speaker 02

  Yes, but you know, but that that thing can't, right? And so you.

• 3:39:11Danny Jones?

  That soul, you think that soul just gets put into another container?

• 3:39:14Speaker 02

  Yes, and then you just, you you know. And then you when you experience it's it's obvious, like you you you kind of laugh about or chuckle about, which I had like, huh, that's funny. Like I'm just laughing at that while I'm in the space. Because it's funny, like how we didn't know that, so how do we, you know? So there is that, that you you reinforce that understanding. And when you stop being afraid of things, that's obviously helping. So that's five. Emu.

• 3:39:43Speaker 02

  And on and and you have these these these processes, right? And in these processes, you can optimize yourself. Like there is, it's very obvious, like, oh, how everything happens. Even human emotions and how they are structured, right? Like you have this moment of realizing that I exist, that flash of like, I am. I'm here. The very next feeling will be fear of losing that awareness of being. And then you understand that every single thing that exists in human emotion is rooted in one of these. Existence and the fear of not existing.

• 3:40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:40:23Speaker 02

  And so negative, from jealousy to fear, everything that's negative in this yin yang is connected to the fear of losing something, but ultimately your existence, ultimately your

• 3:40:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:40:38Speaker 02

  your consciousness. And everything that's positive is I exist.

• 3:40:44Speaker 02

  And need to enjoy that, love, care, all those belongs to that. And then the whole play is the interaction between these two. If I can tell you that existence, the one that the fear shadows cannot be taken away from you, then now you can start knocking out these negatives. Because if I don't have to be afraid of dying or non-existing, then all these negatives that are rooted in the shadow of existence can be start, you know, just throw them out. Not unnecessary, right? And then beyond that, also there are processes that how repeatable miracles, right?

• 3:41:28Speaker 02

  That's what I meant by it doesn't matter if I wanted to be a snowboard champion or a guitar player, that the principles are the same, right? And so you start to see the patterns of like, ah, that's how this works. So yeah, there is definitely a weaponization for us. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Of this, oh, okay, right? I can, I can do this and, and I can, you know, perform, you know, miracles, so to speak. And then in the agreed upon reality space, you have to keep track of the miracles.

• 3:42:05Speaker 02

  Because keep track of the miracles means something that you wanted happens. Somebody you thought of show up, something, you know, it happens to everyone. Synchronous cities and weird stuff, right? And what happens, because we don't have a physical explanation, we don't have a rule set how that happened, or we just simply don't understand how they happen. What happens, anything, you know, your mind can't hold two ideas that contradict each other. It's not possible for you to believe and not believe in the same time. This is why also. I don't know if I would agree with that.

• 3:42:40Speaker 02

  You, you, because what here's, here's what I'm gonna say. If you're in a fence, you don't believe. That's why. So my, my philosophical answer to that is that either you are in, if you have that, you're not in. So either, you know what I mean? It's actually a Buddhist monk told me this. He walked up to me on the street. This, this freaking happened. A Buddhist monk walks up to me on the street. This is, I just got initiated by this, um, these monks a month before. And it was a weird time in my life. Monks in New York City, I lived in New York City at the time. You know, the yellow robe tradition, just walk up to me like, oh, hey, you look good. Like they just knew. It, this was the strangest thing. Anyway, so my monk walks up to me and he goes, uh, do you believe?

• 3:43:24Speaker 02

  I'm like, well, uh, I knew what he was asking. And I go, you know, sometimes yes, sometimes no. And he was like, well, you know, it's, it's a yes and everything else around that is a no. Sitting in a fence is a no.

• 3:43:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:43:39Speaker 02

  It's either yes and everything else, you're absolute or everything else is, you know. So anyways, so that's my, my opinion on it. So.

• 3:43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure, sure. In an instance, you might be right. Yeah. I just, I just feel like you can, you know, you, you can, you can move between.

• 3:43:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:43:54Speaker 01

  Pretty rapidly. That can, that can definitely.

• 3:43:56Speaker 02

  That's yes, but, but yeah, because new information will change what, what you, you know. So yes, I a hundred percent agree with new information changes what you think instantly. If you're not a rigid, you know,

• 3:44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:44:07Speaker 02

  petrified person that is holding on to dogmatic crap, right?

• 3:44:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:44:10Speaker 02

  But, you know, but beyond that, what I meant by holding on to your miracles is that when that happens, like, like I had a, I had a close encounter, right? Which if I told you, everybody would know this guy is crazy, right? But it happened with witnesses. So it's crazy.

• 3:44:29Speaker 02

  Your mind will try to find an explanation. And if it can't, it will try to erase this because it's contradict your agreed upon reality.

• 3:44:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 3:44:38Speaker 02

  Right? So what happens to all your miracles when you start thinking about them like five years from now? Something crazy happened to you. You start to question yourself. Did I, did that really happen? Did I make it up? Did it, did I over, did I color this story? Maybe I embellished it a little bit, right? You start questioning your miracles. And I think it's important that, that you write them down and hold on to them. All the synchronicities, all the weird stuff and man.

• 3:45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:45:05Speaker 02

  You know, because what that teaches you, what more and more happens, you more and more open to accept them. And more and more open to accept them, more and more happens. Right, because you're open to that possibility.

• 3:45:18Danny Jones?

  You're noticing that that channel.

• 3:45:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:45:20Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 3:45:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, so so what I get out of, I mean, I started with psychedelics in the mid nineties. Right, so obviously went down to the psilocybin and LSD and all that experimenting. And, you know, I never touched anything until I had a friend who was a professor and I highly respected him. And he started to talk to me about it and I'm like, hmm. If this person that I highly respected, a massive intellectual giant is talking about this. I need to understand what's happening here. That's kind of what what happened with psychedelics. And then, so from the get go, I never went into the space with like, hey, let's just get fucked up. And, you know, that was never, I don't do that.

• 3:46:03Speaker 02

  It was always intentional and it always was a, I always took it, I'm an explorer. And I'm gonna sail west and let's see if we find a continent. You know what I mean? Like, that was always my thing. So that was always my relation with this. And because of that, I came into this with a scientific mind and the explorer's mind. And so that means you observe, you stay pragmatic, take notes, find patterns.

• 3:46:31Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 3:46:32Speaker 02

  That's how I approached it. And so that's what I've been doing for decades after decades. And so my relation is that to the space. And so because my relationship was that instead of like, woo-hoo, party.

• 3:46:46Speaker 02

  Eventually, I could create these structures like, okay, I see processes. Okay, this works. Oh, I can use this. And you know what I mean? And what that happens, what it does, it's it's modifies, 100% modified who I am. In fact, I don't think I'm the same person, you know. Like, I would go as far like, if you can modify yourself genetically, turn on certain genes and turn off certain genes. I'm pretty sure that I have.

• 3:47:13Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:47:13Speaker 02

  Right. And, you know, and then I, of course, and I went down to the transcendental meditation and all that stuff as well. Parallel to this that, you know, you go into that space and with a flashlight, let's let's see who I am. Everything, all the corners.

• 3:47:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:31Speaker 02

  Leave nothing unturned. Because I have to look at everything that ever happened to me, everything that ever taught to me and told me was. Embedded when I was a kid. Is the data real? Did I understand it correctly first and foremost? And was that real? Is that real? Is it verifiable? You were taught like, don't cross your eyes because it stays that way. Is that true?

• 3:47:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:47:53Speaker 02

  See, I mean, the dumbest little things. Everything that was taught to me. I had to go through that process and discover that. Is it real? Or should I discard? That's the point of that. So I transcend into a different person. Everything that, you know, and it's a little bit of a in between transcendental meditation and and the recapitulation of the Carlos Castellana sort of the the man of knowledge of the Mesoamerican tribes. How they were handling that. There is a process like how to clean house. So this is the the big cleaning house. So I went through that. And so the combination of exploring new territories through psychologics, psychologues and going through traditional, well, traditional in quote actually,

• 3:48:38Speaker 02

  processes of of meditation and and the cleaning house, the recapitulation process. So of let's change who I am. Let's optimize. Let's build, you know, Warhammer four forty K, right? Like, let's rebuild. Let's build a machine. Let's build a war machine that is conscious and can do these things and how I can make. I can give you examples like how. Just one of them, right? So how crazy this this process is? Since I was a kid,

• 3:49:10Speaker 02

  once I start playing guitar. Every time I tune my guitar, I I I kind of lean away from the guitar. I had this fear of the guitar strings break and hit me in the face. I had this fear and so I always like, you know, stayed away from it. I did that my whole life. Until I find why I'm doing it. So when I was a kid,

• 3:49:29Speaker 02

  somewhere around six, seven years old, we used to have a commercial on TV when a little girl was playing a violin. Right? And then playing something and out of sudden like you can ping that the the string breaks. Right? And then the violin goes, you know, just because she broke a string. And it was a life insurance commercial. The metaphor was that anything can happen in life. And we have this in my language, it makes all the sense that the string of life can break. And you know, you need life insurance. A six years old not gonna understand this.

• 3:50:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:50:04Speaker 02

  Concept.

• 3:50:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:50:05Speaker 02

  All I saw, string breaks and the little girl that's playing the violin now need life insurance. What happened to her? So ever since I was tuning my guitar leaning away from the guitar because that thing was in there. I was not aware of this until I'm doing my recapitulations, my transcendental meditation. And as I said, it's a big flashlight. You're finding all the dumb shit that you ever thought of or did or been taught of. And so I found this like, oh, that's why you're doing that. You don't have to do that. That was a metaphor.

• 3:50:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 3:50:39Speaker 02

  Throw it out.

• 3:50:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:50:41Speaker 02

  So that's, that's, that's an actual example of what kind of stuff you find. That there's a crazy stuff is in there. Like imagine you and your personality was formed in the first six, seven years of your life. By who? People were saying they didn't want to tell you the truth because you were a kid.

• 3:50:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:50:58Speaker 02

  So parents were, teachers were all lying to you about stuff because they didn't want to tell you the truth. You know, like babies come with a bird and dropped in the chimney, whatever the hell they were telling you, right?

• 3:51:09Speaker 01

  Wait, what are you trying to say?

• 3:51:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. You, you have, you have a bird on the way? See what I mean? So, so there's, there's dumb stuff that was taught to you and there were irrational fears that were, you know, so all that stuff. You, you become a person and the personality of yours was, was constructed in a time when you were not really conscious of that.

• 3:51:31Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 3:51:31Speaker 02

  Right? So it's kind of unbeknown to you who you are.

• 3:51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:51:35Speaker 02

  And as a point, let's go back.

• 3:51:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:51:37Speaker 02

  And I feel like psychedelics are supercharging that. Like I can really look at things like what's going on here? Who am I? How do I modify this person into the most optimal form?

• 3:51:50Speaker 01

  The, the reason that what you're saying right now stands out to me is super important is because this is actually something that people can verify for themselves easily. Even in the, in the crazier ways, not in the like the, because what you, everything you just said can still be folded into kind of like the psychoanalytical frame. But even in the crazier things, like, people don't necessarily have to go into psychedelics, because, to be fair, there are worse things than than not existing, like, suffering forever. So, you know, that there are worse things, right? Okay. But, but, no, but, and I take the fear, but, but, everything that Zoltan did in his life revolved around a simple attitude, which is, "I'm gonna find out for myself."

• 3:52:35Speaker 01

  And I think that is such an important thing to emphasize. Recently, I told this to Zoltan, yesterday, this was told to me by a friend of mine, and he read it somewhere, so I'm definitely cutting somebody out from the chain of commands that actually authored the idea. But it's a cool experiment, a friend, Nico, like, told me about it. Basically, you, you sit down in the house before you do some mundane task, bank, store, whatever it is that you're about to do, okay? Sit down, close your eyes for a second, envision yourself with everything you're wearing, as accurately as possible, where you're gonna be. If it's at the bank, in front of the teller, doing whatever you're doing, okay? If it's at the store, maybe the cashier, doing the checkout, whatever it is that you're gonna be doing.

• 3:53:17Speaker 01

  Envision yourself there, and then say, "Please deliver me there safely." Simple. Then, when you're at that spot, standing in front of the teller in the bank, you don't have to close your eyes, obviously, like you're tired, but,

• 3:53:33Speaker 01

  envision yourself on that couch, 10 minutes earlier, sitting there. Talk to yourself in the past, say, "Thank you for delivering me here safely." So what's interesting is that you basically create a portal, you communicate to existence, "I understand how this works. I know, at the moment, from my limited perspective, I think of it as like, oh, what do you mean? I just got up and I went to the bank." No, it's an occurrence that happened because you had an aim. You had a vision, you stayed with it. It's a simple one that you do all the time and you can accomplish easily. But you're signifying that you understand how it actually works. Which is you have an intention, you have an energy putting into the intention and you staying on it for a particular amount of time until it occurs exactly how you wanted it to happen.

• 3:54:16Speaker 01

  You don't necessarily know how you're moving your hand or moving your body or you just kind of accept it to be true. But what actually happened when you wanted to go to the bank is that you had all these ideas about going there. And then you had an impulse and you stay with that impulse. The point is that when you start communicating to yourself across time this way, quote unquote. You're starting showing, wait, can I do this with a thing that I don't necessarily expect to happen? This is where you start playing with it. This is what I mean by anybody can verify this. The practice is that you're supposed to be expanding the amount of miracles or synchronicities that can happen to you. And you can test this. So then you go, okay, next time I'm going to the bank, I'm going to imagine, I'm going to do the same.

• 3:55:00Speaker 01

  Deliver me there safely, but I'm also going to envision something that might not happen. Like I'm going to see somebody with a pink hat or something. If you show up to the bank and somebody has even clothes, something pink, distinctly pink on their head, go, oh, interesting. Thank you for delivering me here safely. Also, yes, interesting. And then you start playing with it. Okay, how far can I take this? I'm going to the bank, I'm gonna meet somebody on the way and I'm gonna have some kind of a big life change. And you start believing in it because you're like, well dude, that's, that was crazy. Like, why would they have a pink thing on their head? And now you start playing with it. Try this. Try this. Anybody can try this. Testing the matrix.

• 3:55:45Danny Jones?

  I had this dude on here, Eric Wargo, who wrote a book called Time Loops. Have you heard of it?

• 3:55:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:55:50Danny Jones?

  Fascinating book he wrote about basically the idea of how time is like a loop. And what he started doing was he started recording his dreams down. And then shit that was happening in his dreams was happening in his future. Right, so like, and then he also points out all these times in history where people had dreams that actually happened, like where people like that were like jotting down their dreams had things happen. For example, and even around big events, the Titanic, there was multiple people who had dreams about the Titanic sinking, even somebody who wrote a book about it right before it happened. There was during, right before, yeah.

• 3:56:28Speaker 01

  That's a thing?

• 3:56:29Danny Jones?

  Pull it up, Steve. Steve's got it.

• 3:56:30Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 3:56:31Danny Jones?

  Um, also before nine eleven, there was hundreds and hundreds of people who woke up and talked about having dreams about towers being taken down by airplanes before nine eleven happened. And, um, like, the idea is

• 3:56:52Danny Jones?

  that the idea is the future predicts the past.

• 3:56:56Speaker 01

  As well as the other way.

• 3:56:58Danny Jones?

  As well as the other way around.

• 3:57:00Speaker 01

  It's one system that communicates to itself across all

• 3:57:03Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 3:57:03Speaker 01

  time back and forth and just one block, yeah.

• 3:57:06Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:57:06Speaker 02

  Or there is no time.

• 3:57:08Speaker 01

  Or there is no time and it's just one block.

• 3:57:10Danny Jones?

  So like if you, if you know, or if your future self is projecting, is, is, is somehow communicating with your past self, saying like, oh, I'm successful. I've done all these things. I've achieved all these amazing things. You somehow have this intuition that like, I need to, to become this. This is what I like. This intuitive thing, you can't really describe that you know is your path and your journey, right? But what it really is, is your future self communicating with you. And he has this whole, I'm, I'm fucking this up a little bit.

• 3:57:41Speaker 01

  No, no, I, I'm in full agreement with that. And I think it's just that the more you have these checkmarks of like, yeah, that worked.

• 3:57:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:57:47Speaker 01

  Again, in Zoltan's example, it's very pronounced because he knew he's going to be a rock star when he was like 14, right?

• 3:57:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:57:53Speaker 01

  So, but he knew. It's not like he just postulated. He communicated that across time to say, I know that and well enough to know that just to step into that frame.

• 3:58:01Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:58:02Speaker 01

  Is there a world line for a version of Zoltan that didn't get there? Yes. It's the one that didn't postulate it strongly enough.

• 3:58:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:58:09Speaker 01

  So now that sounds like one of these, oh, parallel universes.

• 3:58:12Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:58:12Speaker 01

  Test it.

• 3:58:13Danny Jones?

  Multiverse.

• 3:58:13Speaker 01

  Try it. It's not, it costs you. Nothing to try this, right? And I promise you, there's gonna be something there that's gonna occur. And again, don't fall into any like silly trap of like, well, you know, I wanted to see some silly hat, but somebody, then I went outside and on the way back home, I saw a pink bubble gum. That doesn't count. Like, be fair with the, you know, with your assessments.

• 3:58:33Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:58:33Speaker 01

  But the more you're fair with your assessments and like you're a better manifester.

• 3:58:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:58:38Speaker 01

  It's just that you're better at envisioning things and connecting to them.

• 3:58:41Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 3:58:41Speaker 01

  In a way that will actually make it happen.

• 3:58:43Danny Jones?

  And when you pay more attention to them, they have more. And I gave the, just Google the book, Steve. Google the Titanic book that came out before the Titanic sunk.

• 3:58:51Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 3:58:51Danny Jones?

  Want a water or something? Steve, we grab a Liquid Death?

• 3:58:54Speaker 02

  Liquid Death.

• 3:58:56Danny Jones?

  Before, so I was explaining this, this thing that happened to me recently where I, uh, I'll get you the water.

• 3:59:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:59:04Danny Jones?

  I, um, there's this dude who, um, is friends. We got any left?

• 3:59:14Speaker 02

  Yo.

• 3:59:15Danny Jones?

  Yes. Nice. Thanks, Steve.

• 3:59:18Speaker 02

  Thank you. Awesome.

• 3:59:20Danny Jones?

  There, there's this guy who's my, my dad, um, worked at the post office with forever. And I see the guy, you know, sometimes when I go to my parents' house, he's there. I see him maybe like three times a year, something like that. Right? He's just like this funny New Yorker guy. I never think about him. I mean, that's mean to say, but I don't really, he's, he's like, he's on the very, he's on the very far periphery of like people in my life, right? Not somebody I think about every day. I happened to be driving home one day and I had, random thought popped into my head about him. Like his voice popped into my head saying, I was imagining how he would react to something I knew was gonna happen in the future. Like I knew, I knew I was gonna see him in the near future. And I was just thinking about like what our interaction would be.

• 4:00:02Danny Jones?

  So random, it popped into my head. No reasonable explanation to why that thought popped into my head. 10 seconds later, he calls me.

• 4:00:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:00:09Danny Jones?

  The dude's called me five times in the last 15 years.

• 4:00:14Speaker 02

  Those are the miracles I'm saying that you have to keep track of. So your mind does not delete them. Yeah. As unexplainable phenomena. Because your your mind is not comfortable. That's why I kind of said that, uh, you know, doesn't like conflicting information. And in our everyday reality, we're not talking about miracles. We're not talking about these things. It's not a a thing that everybody just agrees. So it's kind of goes against the grain of of general agreed upon reality. But they happen. And so the more you keep track of them, the more you solidify them. No, no, no, that happened. That happened. Do not erase this data. This do not bleach bit or whatever. They keep this data, all right? Yeah.

• 4:00:59Speaker 02

  The more you have, the more um, the more accustomed accustomed you are to the miracles. And so the more you can perform. And once you accomplish a bunch of impossible things. In turn, you any task is front of you, you're no longer thinking about which is the enemy. You're no longer have doubts. Oh, I'm gonna do that. I have no doubts. That's what Danny was referring to. We had this conversation that when did you know? And I'm like, I was a kid, I knew exactly what I was gonna do. There was no never a moment in my life and I thought it might not happen. Never. Right. Not for a second. And I would say that is the weaponization of your intent. So intent is a really interesting thing, because let's say to give you a pragmatic example.

• 4:01:45Speaker 02

  You get up in the morning and say, I'm gonna go get some bread. That's my intent. I'm gonna go and get bread. You get in your car, you get a phone call from your friend, he gets a flat tire. Well, I'm gonna go help him. Then uh, some time passed and are you hungry? Yeah, sure, let's go eat. Like you go to eat. So the as you see, the path is nice, really convoluted, you're all over the city. As long as you didn't forget for a second that you left your house for bread. Right? You're good. Because the the the path to success is not a straight line. The path to achieving the things you want is not a straight line. Life will knock you around, but the important part is that vision, the intent has to stay there,

• 4:02:27Speaker 02

  unfazed, that light is there forever until you achieve that. And then, once you achieve that, check mark, I got it. You fulfill that cycle. And then, you probably have more goals, more things that you want to do. And every single time you fulfill one, you check mark those and keep track of them. But I did that, I did that. That was impossible, yet we hear all those miracles. And then, what happens, that's just the record-keeping for, for your own mind. So you not habitually delete these things and you believe in your own miracles. But in turn, what happens to you is that whatever vision I have, whatever I wanna do,

• 4:03:09Speaker 02

  I don't have the automatic question of, yeah, but that's not possible. That's maybe too difficult. Oh, it's gonna cost a lot of money. Oh, I don't know the right people. I don't have those thoughts. Zero silence. I have a goal, I focus on it, and I'm gonna go and get it.

• 4:03:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:03:24Speaker 02

  I don't have the doubt process.

• 4:03:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:03:26Speaker 02

  And the reason I don't have the doubt process, because since I was a kid, I'm practicing this keep track of the miracles.

• 4:03:33Speaker 01

  And there's a state of mind, a state of mind that, and being that amplifies these things. So definitely with DMT and with certain meditative states, I don't know if you know this, but all the participants in the DMTX study in Imperial College, I hope I'm not confabulating this, but I'm pretty sure that Alexander Bainer, in his book, The Bigger Picture, is describing, he was one of the test subjects. And he is talking about, I think he said, all of them experienced an incredible uptake in these synchronicities, even before they started the, the actual tests. So like, I think it was like a month before, that they all started experiencing crazy, the crazy synchronicities. During and a few months after like tapered off.

• 4:04:17Speaker 01

  And when you on certain like, I guess calm states or like after deep meditative states, all of a sudden, all of these things are much more pronounced. You can see them. But at the same time, you see that you just flow through them. You're not even trying to grab them or anything like this. There's this thing that people call Burning Man magic. It's a real thing. It's like when people go to Burning Man, there's this insane uptick in synchronicities that happen there. That way outside of the realm of just chance. And I think it's because that everybody are kind of in a particular state. That it just kind of makes these things happen. But again, this is, anybody can test this. You know, Ricky Gervais famously said, I don't know why, because he started kind of late in his life. And he said, I don't know why, but I always, I just knew it's all gonna be alright. Like I don't never,

• 4:05:02Speaker 01

  even when we had no money, like I was just like.

• 4:05:04Danny Jones?

  Isn't it weird? It's like something when you, when you have this knowledge, like you're this, this, this deep knowing of what's gonna happen. Right? How it's gonna end up. It like, it dictates your actions to get there. Right? Like dictates every move you make in your life. Like I, I have a similar feeling when I was young, which is what I think is the reason that in my life, when I have big goals that I wanted to, to do or to achieve, I, I,

• 4:05:37Danny Jones?

  the analogy I use is I always dove into the swimming pool before it was full of water. And I would just fucking like, I would have to make sure or somehow believe that that water would fill up before I got in the pool. Where I like, I make the big leap, right? Knowing that it's possible, it's that I could land and lose, I could miss my mark and lose everything, but I'm like fucking hoping to God that I'm gonna land on solid ground. You know, and I always find a way to land on solid ground and I don't like, like, I always take the risk.

• 4:06:10Speaker 01

  You burn the boats.

• 4:06:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 4:06:12Speaker 02

  There are the patterns again.

• 4:06:13Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Yes, yeah.

• 4:06:14Speaker 02

  But there are the boats. But there are the patterns again. Look at the patterns.

• 4:06:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 4:06:18Speaker 02

  Right? The pattern is like, let's say we talk about creative visualization. It's a thing. People talk about it. Books were written about it. The principles are the same, right?

• 4:06:29Speaker 02

  The universe yield to. Willpower, right? Countless books about that, countless thoughts about that. If you look at the underlying patterns against, you're gonna find, oh, there's something here, right? And, um, and so, again, to weaponize it and, and, and make it in a pragmatic, practical practice, there is something about

• 4:06:56Speaker 02

  falling one side of this fence. Either you are happening to this world, or this world is happening to you. And it's a mind state, and you have to make a choice. And if typically, when people, you know, if I come from a pragmatic perspective, which that's the side I live on, and that's the choice I made, I was born into this world. Allegedly, it was here before I came, right? We don't know, actually, but allegedly, there's a history. Allegedly, it's not a software that was downloaded into me, like, it's not like I just started to play Call of Duty, and all the buildings were there for whatever reason, because a programmer put it there, right? So you could argue, well, like, was it really here? But let's say, you know, I was born into this world, the world was already here.

• 4:07:42Speaker 02

  That means I am impacting this world. Whatever I'm gonna say, do, whatever activities I'm gonna have in this world, I am changing now its course, because I'm here, right? So I'm an impactor, right? And if I take that side, and I accept it, like, okay, that means it also comes with responsibility. Whatever I'm gonna do will affect permanently this physical reality, and it will have long-lasting impact, right? So I'm responsible for the things I will say and do in this world. That's one side. Or, well, you know, the, the, the, the victim mentality of like, I'm here, and why did this happen to me? Why me? Why me? There's, there, and if you look at people, they fall on one side of the story.

• 4:08:26Speaker 02

  The victim mentality is I'm here, all these things are happening to me. And you know, I see why it's easy to take that side because data is flying out you twenty four seven. So you, you, because you're the perceiver, it's easy to, to, to take that stance like I'm here. And I'm perceiving all these things and all these things are happening and all these things happened to me and stop my toe. And it was, it's your fault, not the couch, right? But all, and the people do this to me and that, and, and then you picked that side. And so you are now, you're a traveler, you're, you're not a traveler, a passenger, you're a passenger in this. And generally, those people don't really go far in life. You're a passenger, you're a victim.

• 4:09:08Danny Jones?

  Totally.

• 4:09:08Speaker 02

  Or you say, I'm no, no, no, I'm here, you guys have to live with me now.

• 4:09:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 4:09:13Speaker 02

  I'm here, I arrived. And you know, it sounds like, well, that's an egoistic point of view. Yeah. Yeah.

• 4:09:19Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 4:09:19Speaker 02

  I am here, I, that's what the ego, I am, I'm here and I am going to impact this world. And I'm gonna live by my rules as much as possible. I'm gonna do the things I want to do, right? And if you are solid in that side, you will succeed. You have to, because you also take responsibility, like anything that happened to me, right? Is my fault or my achievement. If I was run the wrong place in the wrong time, even not, I, some sign I missed, something I didn't read, some, some, I was there. I got myself there, I didn't accidentally appear somewhere out of nowhere without my will being involved. So I take full responsibility for everything there is in my life, right?

• 4:10:03Speaker 02

  That mentality, that sort of, that path will, that will make you successful. There's no other way. And now coupled up with this idea of unbending intent. Whatever I focus on now, I'm not gonna take my eyes off of it. Even though I'm understanding that I will have to do a million other things, but not for a second I forget. I'm, I'm, I'm going for the bread that I, I need in the morning.

• 4:10:29Danny Jones?

  You're still going, you still left the house to go get that bread.

• 4:10:31Speaker 02

  And all these things, you can find it through, again, meditation or the spiritual processes, right?

• 4:10:39Speaker 02

  Or you can shortcut it because you can find it in those spiritual realms through psychatitics as well. And and and the two together are actually pretty powerful because one enforces the other. One verifies the other. And then you always have this world, this agreed upon reality when when I can check it, did this work? Right? It wasn't like, well, let me read your poem and, you know. And then this is no, this is verifiably, I wanted to do that, happen. I wanted to experience that, experience that. And then the more and more you have, the more and more will happen. You just open the door for that. That's an actual mechanical process.

• 4:11:23Danny Jones?

  Well, guys, we just did a four hour podcast.

• 4:11:25Speaker 01

  No way. Really?

• 4:11:29Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 4:11:32Danny Jones?

  I think I think it's a perfect spot to end this.

• 4:11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't realize.

• 4:11:36Danny Jones?

  Fucking a mind melt of a conversation, man. I appreciate you guys both for coming and doing this.

• 4:11:41Speaker 01

  Thank you, brother. Thank you for having us.

• 4:11:42Danny Jones?

  It was a fucking awesome meeting you, brother.

• 4:11:44Speaker 02

  Send me it.

• 4:11:46Speaker 01

  Thank you, brother. Thank you for having us.

• 4:11:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yes, of course. Tell people where they can find out the next thing you're doing with the DMTX experiment. And or not the DMTX, the laser.

• 4:11:57Speaker 01

  Reality.

• 4:11:57Danny Jones?

  The laser code of reality experiment.

• 4:11:59Speaker 01

  So they can always go to website codereality.com. We have a new website coming up right now. And Dango Thoughts on YouTube, D A N G O Thoughts. And Code of Reality Inc. is basically going to be now an official thing. And we're going to be working to actually, you know, bringing the right kind of minds together. We have incredible minds coming into the space from literally, well, I don't know how many of them I can talk about yet. But from scientists to people who are like, you know, like just higher level thinkers and software engineers and like, we really have incredible people that are coming online. And we're very excited about bringing everybody together and encouraging more entities around us to also do more of the same.

• 4:12:42Speaker 01

  More of like investigative processes that are more open minded and more also, I guess, open hearted. So not so much rigid with what they believe is true, including more things. And Zoltan, I mean, Zoltan, I mean, I guess you're a famous person.

• 4:13:01Danny Jones?

  Where can people find your, we need to get your band some more views. Where can we?

• 4:13:07Speaker 02

  It is a very family friendly name of Five Finger Dead Punch. It actually came from a Kung Fu movie, but you know. It's a manifestation of all these things. Well, yes and no. I mean, it's a, there was an old Kung Fu movie, Five Fingers of Death. Oh shit. And then, and then remember the, the five, what was it? The five point exploding heart technique in Hillbill? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was literally watching that movie and I'm like, man, that sounds so ridiculous. It should be a bad name. So here we are. Right? So, so you look at it and a dot com wasn't taken because it was so crazy. Right? So it's both the best and the worst bad name on the planet. You know, because. That is pretty incredible. You know, when some old lady sitting next to me, right?

• 4:13:52Speaker 02

  Some old lady sitting next to me in the airport and, and ask me like, oh, you look like a musician. I'm like, oh, here we go. I would have to tell her, you know, so I'm going to preface it like, so do you know what Kung Fu is?

• 4:14:05Speaker 02

  Cause otherwise you get the faces. But look, yes, that's, that's the manifestation of, of all that what we, we are talking about. So that's, that's a vehicle for me. But what Danny was saying, I, I would add to that, like, that's exactly what has to happen. I think we need to achieve a critical mass. That means high tank, you know, high achievers and, and, and, and high level thinkers, you know? The intellectual giants need to come together and, and explore this. There are a lot of the, a lot of people involved. There are a lot of them are already there and most of them will not yet speak out. Like I was silent about it for over two decades because it just wasn't the time. There was not a, you know?

• 4:14:46Speaker 02

  Right now we can talk about, you know, uh, encounters with, you know, with, with extraterrestrials and people no longer think that you're crazy. Twenty years ago, you definitely were. I had experiences that had witnesses and we were like, holy cow, this is actually happening. Right? That twenty years ago, I couldn't even open my mouth about. Yeah. And then so this second like space was kind of similar. So as I said, we reaching that space where end of childhood. And, and then we need to pull together the, the people so we can create, achieve the critical mass. And we start to define the agreed upon rules or reality of that space.

• 4:15:28Speaker 02

  The same way we define what this is, right? There are rules there. There are happenings that. And visions and things that we see and experience that are verifiable by massive amount of people. So that means there is a rule set. There is, this is real. There is something here that that is important. And what's more important than than try to find these answers. Why are we here? What is happening? What is perception? What what is going on really? That is the underlying question. When everything else, everything that exists around us, us from science to everything is basically that a form of discovery of that very basic original question.

• 4:16:13Speaker 02

  What is going on? What is this? Why? What are we? Why? What's our purpose? That I don't think there is a more important question than that.

• 4:16:22Danny Jones?

  I agree. I think what you guys are doing is really pushing the conversation forward in a big, big, big way. So we should definitely do this again down the road, man.

• 4:16:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Hopefully we have fun things to update on.

• 4:16:33Danny Jones?

  Well, yeah, man. All right, guys.

• 4:16:35Speaker 01

  Thank you, Danny.

• 4:16:35Danny Jones?

  Good night, everybody.

• 4:16:37Speaker 05

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