#265 – Devon Larratt: Arm Wrestling

Devon Larratt is a professional arm wrestler, widely considered to be one of the best of all time. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: – Allform: https://allform.com/lex to get 20% off – Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/lex and use code LEX to get special savings – InsideTracker: https://insidetracker.com/lex and use code Lex25 to get 25% off – ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free – SimpliSafe: https://simplisafe.com/lex and use code LEX to get a free security camera EPISODE LINKS: Devon’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/devlarratt Devon’s YouTube: https://youtube.com/devlarratt Devon’s Facebook: https://facebook.com/devon.larratt.5 Devon’s Website: https://nolimitsarmwrestling.com/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: – Check out the sponsors above, it’s the best way to support this podcast – Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman – Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman – Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman – LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman – Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman – Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here’s the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) – Introduction (06:42) – Over the Top and John Brzenk (18:15) – Strength vs skill vs strategy (42:38) – Denis Cyplenkov (1:11:44) – Jodi Larratt (1:15:45) – Canadian Special Forces (1:20:19) – Arm wrestling (1:27:03) – Freedom arm wrestling (1:38:36) – Diet (1:46:00) – Devon vs The Mountain (1:57:30) – Mortality (2:03:03) – Aliens and robots

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lex Fridman?

  The following is a conversation with Devon Larratt, considered by many to be one of the greatest arm wrestlers in history.

• 0:09Lex Fridman?

  And now, a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. First is Allform, my go-to furniture company. Second is Eight Sleep, a self-cooling mattress cover I sleep on. Third is InsideTracker, a service I use to track my biological data. Fourth is ExpressVPN, the VPN I've been using for many years. And fifth is SimpliSafe, the home security company I use. So, the choices, comfort, health, or security. Choose wisely, my friends. And now, on to the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too.

• 0:55Lex Fridman?

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• 1:18Lex Fridman?

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• 1:45Lex Fridman?

  is Michael Malice. I think it's for the episode where he wore the white suit.

• 1:53Lex Fridman?

  Anyway, go to allform.com/lex. They're offering 20% off all orders if you go to allform.com/lex. This episode is also sponsored by Aesleep and its Pod Pro mattress. It controls temperature with an app and it's packed with sensors. It can cool down to as low as 55 degrees on each side of the bed separately. It's actually starting to warm up here in Austin, which is where I am currently. And I gotta tell you, there's few things I enjoy about life than a good nap. Like, a full night's sleep is nice, but a good nap on a cool chilled bed with a slightly

• 2:35Lex Fridman?

  warm blanket, that, my friends, is heaven. It continues to surprise me that a 20-minute nap can take me from a place where nothing is working, where I'm just low-energy, and 20 minutes later, I'm at the top of the world. I love it. Anyway, go to aesleep.com/lex to check out their Pod Pro cover and save $200 at checkout. Aesleep is currently shipping in the USA, Canada, and the United Kingdom. That's aesleep.com/lex. This show is also brought to you by InsideTracker, a service I use to track my biological data.

• 3:19Lex Fridman?

  They have a bunch of plans, most of which include a blood test that gives you a lot of information that you can then make decisions based on. They have machine learning algorithms that take that data, analyze it, and make decisions. Now, the data includes blood data, DNA data, fitness tracker data, and so on. And it provides you with a clear picture of what's going on inside you and offers you science-backed recommendations for positive diet and lifestyle changes. I love this idea. I talk about it all the time. It's obvious that we should be making decisions about our body using data that comes from our body, not population data. That's great science. The 21st and the 22nd century will be based on data that comes from each individual person's

• 4:04Lex Fridman?

  body. Anyway, for a limited time, you can get 25% off the entire InsideTracker store if you go to insidetracker.com/lex. That's insidetracker.com/lex. This show is also brought to you by ExpressVPN.

• 4:21Lex Fridman?

  The app that has the big sexy button, it does the thing it's supposed to do and does it well. That's the best of software. I use it to protect my privacy on the internet from those ISPs that can still get your data, even if you're using Chrome incognito mode to browse all those creepy websites that you browse. I know you do, listener. I know you too well. You can change locations to watch various shows that are geographically constrained. And my favorite is that the thing just works fast and it works on any device, any operating system, including Linux, my favorite operating system.

• 5:03Lex Fridman?

  Anytime I get a chance to mention Linux, I mention Linux. Anyway, go to expressvpn.com/lexpod to get an extra three months free. That's expressvpn.com/lexpod. This show is also brought to you by SimpliSafe, a home security company designed to be simple and effective. It takes 30 minutes to set up. You can customize the system for your needs on simplisafe.com/lex. I have it set up in my place and I love it. I take my physical, mental and cybersecurity very seriously. I add layers of protection. SimpliSafe is kind of, I would say, the first layer of protection.

• 5:48Lex Fridman?

  It's making sure nobody gets into my home or there's a lot of data evidence of them attempting to do so. As you can imagine, I have other layers of protection as well. But SimpliSafe is the first. And like I said, super easy to use. Anyway, go to simplisafe.com/lex to customize your system and get a free security camera plus a 60-day risk-free trial. Again, that's simplisafe.com/lex. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast and here is my conversation with Devon Larratt.

• 6:42Lex Fridman?

  You are considered to be one of the greatest arm wrestlers in history. Plus are one of the most charismatic and fun people to watch in arm wrestling. But let me first start with a ridiculous, the controversial opinion. I actually really enjoy Over the Top, the movie with Sylvester Stallone, where he's a trucker. It's like a father-son movie. It's, you know, like a bunch of sports have the definitive movie. Boxing has Rocky, maybe folk style collegiate wrestling has Vision Quest. What else is there? Billiards has Color of Money.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:19Lex Fridman?

  This is the sort of movie for arm wrestling. So what did Over the Top get right? What did it get wrong about arm wrestling?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  That was actually based off of a real story. A lot of people don't know that. Yeah, the Over the Top movie, I mean, to a certain degree, that's actually real life. Like that tournament, Over the Top, was real.

• 7:41Lex Fridman?

  It was literally named Over the Top.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. There was a trucker division and the guy actually won a truck for real. His name's John Brzenk. You know who that is, right? So the actual Over the Top tournament, the trucker division was won by John.

• 7:52Lex Fridman?

  Who is John Brzenk? He is, a lot of people talk about him as like a legend and one of, if not the greatest, arm wrestlers of all time.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  John Brzenk is every arm wrestler's father to a certain degree. All of us. The entire sport looks up to him. He, it's incredible what he's done. I mean, at 18, he won Over the Top. At 57, he just competed with me a couple of months ago. Still at the world level. 18, that's, that's 40 years of being at the top of the sport. It's incredible. He's hailed as the greatest of all time in the sport of arm wrestling. Yeah.

• 8:38Lex Fridman?

  And he doesn't, he's beaten some monsters.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:41Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. And he doesn't.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  I mean, when you talk about like the.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  The evolution of the sport, he's responsible for so much of it. Like when you talk about, like, a lot of times when you go back like 20 years, 30 years, a lot of us looked at arm wrestling, I think, I mean, as something you could kind of do. And he's the first guy who's like, if you want to get better at arm wrestling, you got to arm wrestle. And it seems so simple, but, um, you know, he answered so many questions that all of us had about techniques in the sport, um, back, you know, pre, pre-video internet.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's everybody, he's been everybody's target for like 40 years.

• 9:28Lex Fridman?

  So in terms of strength, in terms of power, in terms of skill, what did he teach the sport of arm wrestling? So if you look, how, how did the sport change from 80s, 90s to the aughts? You were at the top of the world for many years, you know, um, you, I, many argue you're still at the very top of the world, but like you were very dominant both left and right hand. And, um, I don't know, 2008 to 2013, something like that.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:54Lex Fridman?

  So how did that sport evolve to today?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  So it's hard for me to comment, you know, prior to, you know, when I came to the sport was kind of mid 90s. Like I've been arm wrestling my whole life, but, uh, I wasn't really involved in the sport to a, a major degree until probably, you know, mid 90s. But I'll say that before the mid 90s, it was really hard to get good at arm wrestling. Very difficult. Um, everybody was doing it wrong, really. Like it was really rare to find people who were technically good arm wrestlers. It was very underground, you know, when I, when I got into sport, it was a flyer that came in the mail.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Uh, you had to know somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody. And then you go to a club and you can't do anything with these people. And, and they'll, and they knew how to arm wrestle, they did, but real masters were rare. And, you know, then internet, internet helped everybody. Communication, uh, the transfer of knowledge became so much faster. People became technically, you know, invested. People started train, sharing, sharing ideas by, I'd say, 2000

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Well, probably around the turn of the millennia, I'd say that professional leagues started to slowly pick up. More organized, bigger productions, started to attract more athletes. More people took it seriously. By 2010, I'd say there was another jump. More serious leagues, a little bit more money. By 2015, more major media, like people were investing a lot of money. Like, you know, millionaires, billionaires type of people were organizing events, setting up leagues. And yeah, I mean, the past five years, it's just blown up. The techniques, I mean, if, if I was to go back to when I started,

• 12:02Speaker 01

  you know, what, what took me 10 or 15 years to learn? I mean, new guys are showing up and they've got it down in like a year.

• 12:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:12Lex Fridman?

  Well, the thing about it, the development of the sport is it's, like I was telling you off mic, it's a battle of one versus one.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:24Lex Fridman?

  And then that can turn into battle of nations, which, you know, there is, there's Canada, there's the United States, there's all the Eastern Europe, Russia, Georgia, all of that. That, that's what makes some of the greatest sports in Olympics great, like weightlifting. It's a battle of nations, not just a battle of individuals. And it's almost like these two humans represent the two nations. And I see that very much, we'll talk about your matches coming up, but there is that battle between North America and that other part of the world.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, North America is very prized. You know, the North American champion is always highly sought after because they're typically the most famous. You know, even still, when, you know, quite arguably, there's always somebody in Eastern Europe who's just monstrous. It's typically the North American athlete who's more recognized.

• 13:21Lex Fridman?

  By the way.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:23Lex Fridman?

  We'll have a cup here with some maple syrup.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Cheers, Lex.

• 13:25Lex Fridman?

  Cheers. We should, should probably show. You, you just dolled that whole thing.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I'm gonna sip it. I'm gonna sip it, you know, but by all means.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  It's really good, right?

• 13:38Lex Fridman?

  That is delicious, yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  That is.

• 13:40Lex Fridman?

  Canadian maple syrup.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's a perfect July day from Canada in a bottle. Yeah.

• 13:49Lex Fridman?

  So you're on a totally, on a total tangent. You are known for appreciating food in all kinds of ways, but one of the things you're known for is pancakes.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  That is, yeah, that's gone to a crazy place in the sport, but yeah, like.

• 14:05Lex Fridman?

  Where did that originate?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  So where that originated?

• 14:09Lex Fridman?

  When it went from like your actual love for pancakes to the meme.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  So, so I think what happened was, so I had a match with Michael Todd. Big match. Michael, great champion.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  He's another guy who's, you know, he's never gonna get off the horse. You know, he's, his elbow is a complete disaster.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Probably one of the most loved and hated guys in the sport right now.

• 14:42Lex Fridman?

  Is it because of the King's move?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, the King's move brings him a lot of hate. Not from me, not from a lot of people, but a lot of observers have a big problem with the King's move.

• 14:54Lex Fridman?

  What's wrong with being a little bit controversial? That's fun.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  You know, I get so passionate about it. I get so angry, you know, because there's this thing like, oh, can you beat him in a hook? Can you beat, man, win.

• 15:06Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Win.

• 15:07Lex Fridman?

  That's all that matters.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  That's it. Just win and don't talk to me about anything else. If you can win with style, win with style. But don't talk to me about anything but winning other, that's the priority.

• 15:20Lex Fridman?

  So you had this match with Michael Todd?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was in a terrible place. I guess it was, I get so screwed up with years. It's 2022 now, right?

• 15:30Lex Fridman?

  No, it's 2030. What are you talking about?

• 15:32Speaker 01

  That's right. I think it is actually 2030. We're way ahead of schedule.

• 15:36Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 15:38Lex Fridman?

  That's right. So when was this? This is like a decade ago or no?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  No, this is like a year and a bit ago.

• 15:44Lex Fridman?

  Oh, this is very recent.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Very recent, yeah. So I got really sick. Yeah, this is the match, right? Awesome match. So this is, this match is for the Legacy Hammer. So we invented this thing called the Legacy Hammer and Michael took it from me in, I think, 2018. And then COVID shut everything down and Michael went overseas to try and set up, because at that time, Michael was a North American champion. He beat me and he went to Dubai and he organized this great big match with Levon. And the whole thing fell apart. Organizers, leagues, wouldn't let it happen, but the, there was still an ability to have a match of significance happen. So Michael's like, who do you want? And I'm like, let's give Devin a rematch.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  And I'm like, yeah, yes. And I was really sick at the time. I had DVT, I had pulmonary embolism, I was mentally in a terrible place. And I got offered the match and I just totally turned my life around. And I committed really hard. Yeah.

• 16:53Lex Fridman?

  What happened in this match, by the way?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Oh, I just totally destroyed him. Yeah. I just beat the piss out of him. Yeah. Michael's a good friend of mine, but...

• 17:07Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's a lot of camaraderie. You guys talked afterwards, it was great.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we fight like, like brothers, you know, like, so we let each other really fight hard against each other. But, so I was, I knew, I mean, strength and mass, they go hand in hand. And I committed to just getting as big and as strong as I could. And literally, I was eating pancakes every day. Bacon, pancakes, every sloppy bit of garbage food I could eat. I was trying to eat healthy also, but if there was garbage food, I'd eat it.

• 17:38Lex Fridman?

  What do you mean bacon and pancakes isn't healthy? What are you talking about?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 17:43Lex Fridman?

  People should go watch, there's a video where you make like the, the Canadian meal of bacon with some bacon cooking tips, water, that was interesting.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:55Lex Fridman?

  And then, and then obviously pancakes and maple syrup all over the whole thing.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're making me very hungry, Lex. I've caused more diabetes than, you know, probably gonna get in trouble karmically for making the world obese.

• 18:09Lex Fridman?

  You should probably write like a book, The Pancake Diet.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:13Lex Fridman?

  Devin Larren.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I will do that one day.

• 18:15Lex Fridman?

  So you said mass and strength go hand in hand, just at a big level about arm wrestling. What's more important? Strength, power, endurance, skill, strategy, or mental toughness? Like, how do these components all come into play in arm wrestling?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  They're all important. You can use everything and you can adjust your strategy based off of the tools that you have. I would say if I could pick ever, just one thing to have more of, I would say that it would be strength gained while fighting.

• 18:53Lex Fridman?

  While actually arm wrestling, so not off the.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  No, no, no. So you get stronger from arm wrestling.

• 18:59Lex Fridman?

  How do you get stronger from arm wrestling? Like in jiu jitsu and grappling, you can get good by training with people much technically worse than you. So white belts and blue belts.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:09Lex Fridman?

  It's actually beneficial.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Agree.

• 19:11Lex Fridman?

  Because you get to work stuff out.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:13Lex Fridman?

  But I wouldn't say develops like that intensity and power required to go against people at your level. So how do you balance that? Is it okay to go against people that are much weaker than you? Or do you really have to go against people at the same level?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  I think that a blended strategy is probably the best. I'd say kind of a rule is whatever you do, you get better at, right? So you want to be kind of as precise as possible. You don't want to get hurt. And it's just about investment. And.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  The answer is not always the same. Things are gonna change. I am currently a big believer in what I call tower building, right? So you have to do a lot of volume to build a great tower. You, you need to have a ton, a ton of volume. So, so when you look at how to best build volume, you want to do workouts that aren't particularly challenging, that make you feel good, and do them so that when you add them all together, you, you get the biggest number. So many easy workouts a day that are as specific as possible, in my opinion,

• 20:39Speaker 01

  is the best way to lay the foundation for an extreme peak. And precision, right? Like, there's no more precise way to get strong at arm wrestling than arm wrestle.

• 20:54Lex Fridman?

  So, how often can you arm wrestle? What's your training regimen? You, you're, you've talked about this as the climb.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:04Lex Fridman?

  What is the training process to get great at arm wrestling?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Well, again, it's gonna depend on what level you're at. The answer at the beginning might not be the same. For me, a guy who's been doing it almost 30 years, I have to harvest. I have to harvest energy from clubs. I call it cosmic punch.

• 21:29Lex Fridman?

  Sorry to interrupt. You were here in Austin, Texas. You are in Austin, Texas, but you were at the, what was it called? The, the water tank?

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Water tank, yeah.

• 21:36Lex Fridman?

  And you had an awesome crowd.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  It was great.

• 21:39Lex Fridman?

  I get to watch, I get to interact with a lot of those guys. Just, just amazing community, amazing human beings. I got to talk to Dmitry in Russian and, and English. He's a He's an engineer, his wife is an engineer, so he's a brilliant dude, but also one of the toughest, I guess, guys you face there.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:58Lex Fridman?

  But you faced, I don't know how many people, it must have been hundreds of matches.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the bar was full. Yeah, and that, that for me is a perfect training scenario. Yeah. So if I go in and just kind of be, I'm like a lightning rod. And I just absorb everything that I can get from people, you know, all their effort. That's perfect. That's perfect. But I'm lucky because I'm in a place that I can handle it. You know, if I was losing or failing, this would not be optimal. But because I'm, I'm strong enough, I've been doing it long enough that I can kind of absorb it without damaging me. This is perfect. This is perfect. I typically, when I'm training up for a very serious match,

• 22:44Speaker 01

  I'll try and do that, uh, three or four times a week. And then the days in between, I will just do blood flow rehab. Blood flow rehab. I will never hit a PR, a record. I'll never do it anymore. I don't do it. I used to. A lot of things change. That's why I say like, there's a lot of ways to do it. This is currently a system that's working very well for me.

• 23:09Lex Fridman?

  So when you say PR, you're not aggressively chasing a peak. You're just building and building and building.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. My only peak that I care about is for this cycle, the 25th of June. That's my only PR.

• 23:23Lex Fridman?

  Let's talk about the 25th of June.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:27Lex Fridman?

  Let's talk about Levon Sigenishvili, the Georgian Hulk.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:35Lex Fridman?

  Uh, question number one, is it possible to beat him? He is widely acknowledged as, uh, the most powerful person in arm wrestling today. Is he beatable?

• 23:50Lex Fridman?

  And so how?

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Everybody's beatable. Everybody's beatable. Levon is incredible. He's a, he is what this modern peak of arm wrestling represents.

• 24:04Lex Fridman?

  So for people who are just listening, we, we also have an overlay of a video of Levon going against Vitaly Lledin, um, another top three person in the world, perhaps.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:15Lex Fridman?

  In, in arm wrestling. And the, uh, Levon's the guy in the right.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Just big.

• 24:21Lex Fridman?

  I love it. And the, the aggression, uh, I mean, actually sort of underneath it all is, it seems to be a teddy bear. But when, when he turns it on.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:30Lex Fridman?

  It's, uh, it's raw power.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  He's the full package. Levon is, uh, he represents the pinnacle.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  There's Dennis in the background. He's like, I want to be back in there.

• 24:43Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Levon has a lot of bases covered. Uh, he's, I mean, he's curling 300 pounds with one arm. I mean, the strength that he shows for arm wrestling is, is, is so far ahead of the field. It's, it's very, very strong.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  But it's absolutely possible. It's absolutely possible. The one thing that I'm confident about, well, I'd say there's two things. The two things I'm confident about is that I have more experience than he does. And experience counts for a lot.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  The other thing is, uh, my ability to breathe and recover. So if ever there's an opportunity for the tide to turn, that's, I think, where he'll never get it back. So I think if I can somehow find a hole in his game, then, uh, yeah.

• 25:43Lex Fridman?

  So you, you want to hold off the initial like assault of power and that, and then wear them out. And to find the hole and then, so how much of that is mental? How much of it is just the physical ability to do for your muscles to have the endurance to hold off?

• 26:04Speaker 01

  I like to make the sport bigger. And a lot of things that most arm wrestlers believe the sport is, I always try and push those boundaries. So there is definitely a mental aspect to it. When you're faced with something that you've never seen before, that's when things like experience comes in. He can become surprised where what's a surprise for him is routine for me. So my adjustments will be more precise, more accurate. Yeah, that's how I get in. That's how I get in. Yeah, I play it. I play a dirty game, you know?

• 26:49Lex Fridman?

  So some of it, how important is confidence in the whole? In the progression of the match, is there ups and downs of confidence? Like, holy shit, I actually have a chance to win this. Holy shit, I'm winning this. You're done. There's some of my favorite moments. I don't know if those are fake or not in terms of your expressions, if it's fake until you make it. But whenever you shake your head or whatever, you make it apparent that you believe the match is finished. And I wonder if that gets in the head of the other person. When you start to actually. So I'm sure you're doing things in like precise, detailed things with your hands to also indicate

• 27:33Lex Fridman?

  that you believe they're finished. But you're facially just.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  See this?

• 27:37Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 27:40Lex Fridman?

  Quit. Oh, that's right, because it's facing the other. So that's ultimately what the battle is about. It's like it's you're done. It's you might as well give up.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Commitment is so important in anything that you do, right? Like, I always.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Kind of try and bring things to a level of commitment that's uncommon. I think that that's a lot of reasons why I do well. It's because I just get so committed in the whole process. And by the time that I actually show up to fight, I sometimes just wish that they would kill me, you know? I wish that they would because that's what, that's how far I want to go. Like, people talk about like, how committed are you to the match? Like, if you're committed to the match and you lose, you should be hurt. Like, that's, I'm often unhappy when I lose a match and I don't have an injury. I'm like, damn, like, what the fuck? Like, I should have, like, I feel, I feel like I didn't commit, you know?

• 28:44Lex Fridman?

  I don't know if you know Dan Gable is the wrestler.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, he was on.

• 28:48Lex Fridman?

  He was on the podcast?

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:49Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah. He, he talked about his whole career. He dreamed of working so hard that he gets, he can't get off the mat by himself. And he was always, he's disappointed ultimately at the end of his career because he was always able to get off the mat on his own accord. So he wants to, yeah, leave it all on the mat just from exhaustion. See, that, that's what commitment looks like. But what, what is this process? What is this climb for probably the toughest match of your career? I would say the most epic match in, in arm wrestling history. I mean, it's really building up.

• 29:30Lex Fridman?

  You are the, you said North America, that's a, I mean, I think, by a constant menu, you're one of the greatest arm wrestlers ever. He is one of the scariest arm wrestlers ever. And so this match, by the way, where's it happening?

• 29:47Speaker 01

  It'll be in Dubai.

• 29:47Lex Fridman?

  In Dubai?

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:48Lex Fridman?

  June. So what does the climb look like?

• 29:52Speaker 01

  The climb for me, what I have to change in my life always. People talk about being a professional. I've always loved the sport. I've, I've loved it like crazy. But to me, the path is about simplicity and removal of distractions. I do better and better the more I get rid of everything. Nothing else. So that my life is just. The goal, just the target and everything else is off the table. And that's, that's where I need to get to where there's nothing, there's nothing between me and him.

• 30:36Lex Fridman?

  And every single day you're putting in the volume.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Every day, all day.

• 30:41Lex Fridman?

  Now, you said you worked out. So yesterday you did hundreds of arm wrestling matches. And then today you said in the morning you still worked out. So what was that workout? So you, you're mixing up stuff where you're doing weights also?

• 30:53Speaker 01

  This morning, you know, I tried to really focus on what's administratively easy. That's a big part of me is everything I do. So I just travel with bands. Yeah, I got bands with me and it's rehabilitative in nature. So I'm really focusing on blood flow, feeling good, doing proper movements. But yeah, just a band workout in the hotel.

• 31:19Lex Fridman?

  What does a band workout look like? So are you doing the arm wrestling movement?

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Oh, see that? See what you did there?

• 31:25Lex Fridman?

  What's that?

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:28Lex Fridman?

  You want to bring them in?

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Up, up.

• 31:31Lex Fridman?

  Oh, the up thing?

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Up, up, up into your center, right? You think what can you control out here? No, you bring everything close. You want every, just that's it. Don't worry about pinning. Pinning happens once it's close to you. Yeah, the pinning is, people always think about pinning. Don't think about pinning.

• 31:48Lex Fridman?

  How much of the body is a part of this too? Like the, the core, the torso, because it feels like there's that almost like a Mike Tyson punch power, right?

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 31:58Lex Fridman?

  Does it come from the hips too and the, the legs?

• 32:03Speaker 01

  It's definitely the whole body. It's definitely the whole body. Like everything is working. You're connected to the table at times as far as your base. Sometimes your base is your feet, but a lot of times you can base off the table. So, so you can base off your hips, but I'll tell you, no arm wrestler cares about doing squats.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  No arm wrestler is doing planks.

• 32:25Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Okay, it's all about the forearm and the actions of the hand.

• 32:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  That's always the limiting factor. You look at a guy like Oleg Zok. Okay, do you know this guy? Oleg Zok.

• 32:37Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Marvelous. He's a, he's a total hellboy. He's my inspiration to what I call pumpkin training. But.

• 32:45Lex Fridman?

  What's pumpkin training?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Probably we'll get into that, but I only train my right arm. That's it. Yeah, with homework. But back to full body. It is full body. My, my good friend Matt Mask, when he arm wrestled me, he actually blew his internal abductor in his, in his leg. So yeah, people walk away from tournament, their calves can be sore sometimes. You know, it happens, but. No, oh, there he is, right there. Yeah. Oh, like he's, he is a real life hellboy. I was like, he's like 170 pounds there. Look at his arm. Look at his arm.

• 33:22Lex Fridman?

  Crazy.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, he's totally crazy.

• 33:26Lex Fridman?

  That's you doing left right there. So that's, by the way, Levon, you're going right.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 33:33Lex Fridman?

  So can you say more about the, the mental side? Are you visualizing what it takes to beat him? Are you trying to get in his head?

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Um.

• 33:41Lex Fridman?

  All of these things.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  So.

• 33:43Lex Fridman?

  Do you think it's possible to get in his head?

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Um. There's definitely strategies that you can do depending on who it is you're facing. Uh, it's very good to know who it is you're fighting and choose the correct strategy mentally. Uh, but I always follow a process when it comes to my mental preparation. When I'm far away from an event, I just always build up my opponent. Build them, I build them, I respect them. To a point where I almost start to fear them and start to believe that they'll beat me. And this is a very vital part of my preparation. And that's where I am right now with Levon. I don't, I just build them up, build them up into this thing that scares me.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Um, and it forces me to be responsible, you know? Uh, cause I don't want to lose, you know? I want to win. Uh, so the greater my opponent, the greater I can build their worth in my mind, the more motivation it gives me. Um, then there comes a point when, uh, when it changes.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  And then I start to degrade them. And yeah, that's when it normally starts to get fun. And normally, by the time I face them, I just try and completely dominate from every interaction from start to finish.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:10Lex Fridman?

  When in the actual moment of the match, like in the moments leading up to it, what's the feeling? Is it fear? Is it confidence? Anxiety? What's going through your mind?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  I love to fight. I love it. I always have. I there's there's every day where you have, you know, the distractions of life. And then there's really living in the moment. Right? It's whatever you love to do. And that's when you can, you know, really be free. I I'm free when I'm fighting. Right? So you put me in a good fight and I just love it. And I don't think about the past. I don't think about the future. I just think about killing that dude in front of me and I enjoy that.

• 35:59Lex Fridman?

  And just being intensely in the moment.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  That's it. Just right there, just fighting as hard as I can.

• 36:05Lex Fridman?

  Do you study the opponent? Like, do you have you for this particular match? Do you study videos of Levon?

• 36:11Speaker 01

  I've seen everything. I've read everything. I get opinions from other people. I watch very closely. Yeah.

• 36:22Lex Fridman?

  What do you make of his evolution? So so he's he's grown in size. But also, you've talked about his, you know, evolution technically as well. What then studying him?

• 36:37Lex Fridman?

  Since we're in the build your opponent to be terrifying stage, what what makes him great?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  He's very impressive. The the greatest thing about him is is his strength. That's the thing that sets him apart from everyone. His strength, specialized strength, exact strength for arm wrestling.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  I believe it's unmatched.

• 37:03Lex Fridman?

  Can we just linger on that word, strength? What does strength mean? What does it feel like? Are we talking about bicep? Like shoulder? Are we talking about like whatever controls the wrist? Is it the? How does strength manifest? You know, like when I touch your hand, when we grab arms, I feel like, fuck, that's strong.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  There's control, right?

• 37:33Lex Fridman?

  What is that feeling? Where does that come from? Where in arm wrestling? When you're at the top of the world, where does that come from?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  So it's chains. There's chains of strength. And in arm wrestling, this is like technical strength. Okay. And we use these technical chains to fight each other. The, the chains that I'll talk about is, so you'll talk, remember how we talked about the post? This upwards drive? This ability to close this angle? This is a chain.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  It can be used. It's, it's a technical attack. It's also an attack that can be built with, with training. Just the ability to just drive upwards. There's a chain where you cup, right? Cup your wrist in, cup your wrist in, and the, and the anchor and the chain brings you right to your heart, right to your center, right? This chain, and this can be done at any time. There's a pronation chain, and that's, that's to turn your thumb over, right? Turn your thumb over and you attack the person's cupping chain.

• 38:33Lex Fridman?

  And there's a huge number of muscles involved in each of those chains.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  And that's why I say it's a chain, right? But they're movements. And these movements you can develop in the gym or through practice.

• 38:45Lex Fridman?

  So you don't mean, so it's easy to sort of interpret strength to mean the, how much you curl essentially?

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:52Lex Fridman?

  But you mean the chain? It's all has to do with?

• 38:54Speaker 01

  And that's why, like, I mean, people talk as a bicep. I mean, yes, there's bicep for sure involved, but I, I'll always be inaccurate if I try and tell you like what muscles are the, so I prefer to explain it in a movement and then everything that's involved to do that movement. Right? Yeah. And Levon's movements for arm wrestling are incredibly impressive.

• 39:16Lex Fridman?

  What do you attribute to? How much of that is genetics? How much of it is some training thing he's doing?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  I think that. Levon is very special in terms of his genetics, like not everybody can be Levon. You know?

• 39:34Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  There's, there's not many Levons out there.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  But what I've encountered in the bias that I always see, like when people talk about people like Levon, they discount the other side so very quickly. And the thing is Levon rarely has to show the other side because he's so far ahead. You talk about the technical application of the sport. He so rarely needs to show it, but he's clearly incredible. If you watch his progression, he came up having very difficult technical struggles to overcome. Georgia is a great country for arm wrestling. There's this guy Gennady Kvitvina, who no one would ever say is not technical. And, you know, it took him years to defeat him to a point where now it's not, it's not even a discussion.

• 40:23Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you talk about the progression, they had a lot of battles together over the years.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:27Lex Fridman?

  It's fascinating to see the tides turn.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And once they've turned, it's like completely, completely different level. Yeah, I mean, he's got, he's got strength, he's got technique. Some people will argue that his technique is flawed at times. They've shown matches where he hasn't shown the best technique, but he's still won. And I think sometimes he just plays with people, you know? Like, uh, there's a famous match that he had with, uh, uh, they call him the Bruce Lee of arm wrestling, a guy called Ongarbayev, Kurtigali Ongarbayev. He's, they had a match in the top eight. Great match. Kurtigali is like 220 pound guy from Kazakhstan.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Brilliant technician, but power wise, you know, not in the same world. And Kurtigali did well, even though he lost 6-0, he still did well. But in my opinion, Levon didn't care. Levon was like grabbing him low and just like, whatever, like. I will show him things that he's not seen before. I will.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  He hasn't competed often in this rule set, which will be a challenge for him. But, uh, yeah, what can I say? Like Levon, he's Everest.

• 41:47Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 41:48Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you are seen by basically everybody as the big, big underdog. But you're also even, even in the Eastern, even, uh, I mean, I talk to Russians a lot. There you, uh, you know that moment in Iraqi when they start cheering for Iraqi?

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:04Lex Fridman?

  You're kind of the, they, they love you. They want you to win. And just, you know, it's not even, um, just the battle itself is inspiring. And it's, it's, it's like the culmination in your career because it's, you know, you're at the top for a long time, but it's like, it's almost like it should be over for you. But no, you're returning. It's, it is like this big moment.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:29Lex Fridman?

  The big climb.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  I will be the poignant of the spear for North America. Yeah.

• 42:36Lex Fridman?

  Ah, beautiful. Well, let's, uh, thanks for bringing that matchup. Let's, let's talk about just, um,

• 42:44Lex Fridman?

  the, the, the match against Dennis, your left hand match.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:48Lex Fridman?

  He's also terrifying and seen as one of the strongest, probably the, uh, one of, if not the strongest left hand arm wrestler.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:58Lex Fridman?

  There's a lot to be said there. Maybe you could talk about this match at a high level. Why did you take on this match? Why'd you do the left hand?

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:06Lex Fridman?

  Versus the right hand? What can you tell the story?

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Okay, Dennis Saplankoff. There's so much about this match. I love Dennis.

• 43:15Lex Fridman?

  Russian guy.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, Russian guy. Russian. I used to call him Dennis Chernobyl.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  What a monster. He kind of, uh, led, I'd say this new era of arm wrestling where the super heavyweight strength level has just gone through the roof.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  I wanted the match for such a long time. We tried to get the match. We couldn't get it organized. This is back in like, you know, 2008 to 2012. Couldn't get the match, couldn't get the match. I've always been more of a one-on-one puller. He was doing the tournament format. I was ranked number one in the world and towards the end, it kind of was very undecided. I ended up getting surgery. I ended up abandoning the super heavyweight division. I went down to 225s for a few years. WAL failed temporarily. So the 225 pound division was scrapped and I said, "Okay, I'm gonna go for the big crown once again." And I started to go after super heavyweights.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  The 2018 season was right hand. I started to enter negotiations to have the match with him. We'd been chasing the match for 10 years. They wanted to do it left hand. I wanted to do it right hand. I just wanted to do the match. I wanted to do the match with Dennis. I wanted to meet Dennis. So people should know that you were, the right hand has always been your strongest. It has been. I mean, I had surgery in 2016. I hate to make excuses. I hate to do it. Dennis was better than me that day, even on my best day. If you had gone back my entire

• 45:03Speaker 01

  career, at no single day do I beat Dennis Zablankoff in 2018. I would like to think that I could maybe do it now, but at that point, there would be no version that could have beat him. Left or right? Right hand, no. I'm curious about the right, but left hand. So is the world. Well, it might still happen. It might, but Dennis completely destroyed me.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  And I learned a lot from it. I, I think before the Dennis match, I think I was, I don't know, I, I don't know exactly what your words to use. Maybe I felt like my thinking was a little bit elitist. And I really learned a lot. I was really humbled that day by how far and how professional and how prepared Dennis was and how seriously he took the sport.

• 46:05Lex Fridman?

  There's a mental, a slightly terrifying calmness to him, which only comes with extreme preparation, I think.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. His level of dedication was extremely inspiring to me. You know, I used to do a job where it was serious enough that the, the price could be death, right? And I arm wrestled throughout that entire period. And I always kind of looked at, you know, the cost of doing an activity being death limited to soldiering. And I, I kind of changed my mind a lot after that match.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  I realized that anything that you're in love with, once you get far enough down the road and professional enough at it, it's going to kill you. Like, doesn't matter what you're doing, if you're crazy enough about anything, it's probably going to take your life from you in some way. And that doesn't mean you rush towards death, it's just your level of investment and level of risk can have some catastrophic effects.

• 47:23Lex Fridman?

  Bukowski, Charles Bukowski, I think has the quote, do what you love and let it kill you.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:30Lex Fridman?

  Like that.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Right. And I understood that Dennis's level of professionalism far exceeded mine in what we were doing at the time. And I realized that, you know, I was no longer employed. I was now in the world of professional arm wrestling. And I realized that, you know, what was I doing? Like, how serious was I? So Dennis is an incredible guy.

• 47:59Lex Fridman?

  Is there moments in that match, there's humility there too, from him. That was a fascinating sort of, it seemed like you realized that you just hit a wall and you were not ready enough for it.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  It was incredible. There was so many things that I remember about the Dennis match. I mean, I remember, you know, seeing video of somebody and then meeting them in person, it's different. I remember in the weigh-ins, sorry, not the weigh-ins, in the standoff that we did, you know, before the match, I'm looking at him, like, I'm close, I'm looking at his arms. And his bicep, it looked like an ass. Like, it was like a frickin' glute muscle. Like, his entire structure was so sinewy and just so strong. I was like, wow, physically so impressive.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  And I remember when I arm wrestled him, at a certain time, he allowed me to kind of set my position. You can very, you can't really tell because it happens very quickly. But he let me set my position, which means I kind of got my locks in where you can kind of really do a great hold. And he just ripped through me.

• 49:17Lex Fridman?

  So you were able to get this great position?

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:21Lex Fridman?

  So it was?

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Tore right through me. Yeah. And it's the first time I ever thought that, you know, that I had torn something. I thought, like, after the match, I'm like, geez, did he rip my chest right in half? Like?

• 49:35Lex Fridman?

  What, did it?

• 49:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 49:38Lex Fridman?

  It's 100%?

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I didn't, I didn't actually, nothing went purple or anything, but. Yeah, the strength gap was very significant with Dennis. So could he, what would it take to beat him on that day? Um, it would, it would take me just being a little bit stronger. More focused. And more healthy, yeah. My left was not as healthy as it should be. Like, I didn't have a full rounded technical arsenal. It takes a time after surgery. It really does. Like, I mean, you can be good, but after a surgery like what I had, you know, you're probably looking at three or four years before you're starting to hit technical proficiency, the way you should be.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  And, uh, yeah, just a bit stronger. How do you interpret the calmness on his face? Well, what is that about? Is he actually that calm? It's very Russian, isn't it? It's a Russian thing. It's a Russian thing, I think. I don't know. I see a lot of Russians like that, you know? They're so like stoic and I'm such a fan of Russia. I, I really want to go to Moscow. I've been saying it forever. You've never been? Not yet, not yet. I, I want to go. I wanted to go and live there for like a month and just train. Moscow's got such a crazy arm wrestling scene. They've got, from what I understand, they just have so many clubs, there's so many strong athletes, just go and just lightning rod. Yeah. Have you considered doing something of that sort? It's like Rocky IV again. Oh, yeah. Like, oh, and lead up to June?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  I would certainly consider it. I've got only one trip planned at the moment.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Administration is very important. What do you mean by administration? So like managing your time? Management, yeah. The management has to be very efficient. You know, when I'm a tourist, when I'm a visitor, a little bit of that goes down. You know, when I'm at my home and things are familiar, I've got a really great grasp on my time. You know, everything's in place. Everything's perfect, you know? If I could magically transport Moscow into my hometown and just go out and visit them. Yeah.

• 51:47Lex Fridman?

  So it's very difficult when you're traveling, you have to keep all the, you have to figure out what you're eating, where, how are you getting the food, all the socializing, plus you're more and more a celebrity. So there's a social interaction, which I don't know how draining that could be on you outside of the arm wrestling table. So you have to manage all of that because ultimately you have to focus on the fight ahead.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. A lot of my strength comes from just being in a familiar place, doing my routine. I love to travel. I love to get out there and meet people and new experiences. But when I just want to really prepare for a big match, yeah, home is where I get strong.

• 52:32Lex Fridman?

  So that loss against Dennis was one of the few losses in your career. How did that feel in the moments after, in the days after, in the months after, in the years after? How has it changed you as an arm wrestler, as a human being?

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Well, it's tough to lose.

• 52:55Lex Fridman?

  Still haunt you?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Um, I don't think so. I actually was really happy to lose to Dennis because, you know, sometimes when you lose a match, there's a lot of matches that I've lost where they upset me because I know I made a mistake. I didn't make a mistake with Dennis. He was just, he was just way better. There's nothing I could have done that day. I'm really at peace with it. Dennis, to me, was just a big inspiration. I think that me arm wrestling Dennis left-handed that day just let me touch probably one of the strongest human beings on the arm wrestling table that's ever lived, you know, left-handed. So.

• 53:33Lex Fridman?

  So knowing that's possible is almost like inspiration to you that I can be at that level too?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seeing what Dennis did, you know, just trying to absorb a little bit of his knowledge, planted seeds in me.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, when I look at my career, it's a bit like the stock market, but for sure, I'm trending upwards. And since really kind of wrapping my mind around some of the Russian philosophies, they really changed my training systems. There was some base philosophies that they talked to me about over there that massively impacted my training.

• 54:16Lex Fridman?

  Is it possible to convert some of those philosophies into words? Can you describe some of the ideas they taught you?

• 54:22Speaker 01

  So.

• 54:22Lex Fridman?

  Never smile.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Ah, right? Man, there's so like, it takes a while to break the ice with a lot of these guys.

• 54:31Lex Fridman?

  Well, once you do, I mean, that's this deepest bonds you can form there.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that I was raised under, I believe it's a flawed, it's, I mean, it's not flawed because it has its value as well. But it's best if you understand both philosophies. I think a North American thing that's just so ingrained in our fitness society is no pain, no gain, you know? And just pushing and like sweating and going harder and like fighting through like, and grit and tough and but, and then you talk to the Russians and they're like, yeah, never fail. You never fail, never, never go to failure.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Always feel good, always feel good. It should always feel good. Don't. And those two philosophies express themselves very differently. And if you want to get strong, yeah, don't fail, don't fail.

• 55:34Lex Fridman?

  So that's how you, they also are believers of volume.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's a lot of strategies, but yeah, volume is a massive principle. And volume is very hard to achieve when you're believing in no pain, no gain. Right? They don't really go together. No pain, no gain, more injuries.

• 55:55Lex Fridman?

  So the, is there parallels because in wrestling, some of the greatest wrestlers of all time are Russian and they, they were big, Dan Gable talks about it, they were big on play.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:07Lex Fridman?

  Like lighter wrestling.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:09Lex Fridman?

  Probably ultimately actually it boils down to that's how you achieve higher volume.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:15Lex Fridman?

  Like over the stretch of years, the way to reduce injury. I mean, in wrestling also technique might have greater value than it does in arm wrestling. Obviously technique is extremely important in arm wrestling, but power is like can defeat technique, it seems like.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:38Lex Fridman?

  In wrestling, you can get away, there's a lot of ways you can really do sneak attacks, sort of use leverage, all those kinds of things. So there's even more incentive to do play and all that kind of stuff.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:50Lex Fridman?

  But do you, do you see the parallels between the two worlds?

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:54Lex Fridman?

  Wrestling and arm wrestling?

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. You saw what I did the other night, right? So I'm playing on the table for hours.

• 57:00Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Right? So that's, that's, that's, that's my number one training thing that I do is I go on the table for hours and I play.

• 57:09Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Yeah. When you did, Sergey, can you pull up that video? It's on Devon's channel, the, the water tank one?

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Oh, it's like 180p. It's like the wifi in there was so bad.

• 57:22Lex Fridman?

  It's great. I love it. It's maybe the, I don't know if it was fisheye, but it had a fisheye feel.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:28Lex Fridman?

  Crowded, I mean, so much camaraderie. It was, it was amazing.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:32Lex Fridman?

  But maybe just a brief mention of Dmitry, the Russian, the Russian guy. What, what in that play, what are some memorable things here? Like when you, when you go against a bunch of different people, a bunch of strangers, what are all the differences and how do you grow from them? How do you learn from them?

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Well, everybody's a bit different, so.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  I love to go to new clubs because the energy is always high. Like, the first time you go to a club, everybody's trying to kill you.

• 58:04Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're gonna-

• 58:05Lex Fridman?

  There's excitement and there's this, and so you feed off of that.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do. You can, you can, if you're able to be strong enough to absorb it without injury, it's awesome. It's awesome.

• 58:15Lex Fridman?

  Because they're giving you everything they can.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Right, so it's, it's very specific, right? Like, I'm gonna get way stronger in arm wrestling. And what I try and do when I go to these places is I make an assumption. I make an assumption that I'm the best guy there. And so I'll arm wrestle in a way that kind of protects them. Because the more I can protect them and kind of keep them kind of in a good position, they can actually give me more, right? So I kind of, I kind of give them little pieces that I think will put them in a place that they can really give me more. And, so yeah, that's what I'm doing. And then when I see somebody like Dimitri, I pull that in a little bit, right?

• 59:03Speaker 01

  So, okay, so I know Dimitri's the number one guy in Texas. You know, lots of respect to the guy. I, I won't give him all the pieces until I really kind of gauge where he's at. Because I certainly in training, don't want to fail. I don't want that. I don't want to, when, when you fail in arm wrestling, it's just, imagine it's just bad technique. And you're trying and bad technique, you're gonna get hurt.

• 59:28Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So you always want to be in a strong position here. What about, how, how does endurance come into play here? And here's video of you strapping up with Dimitri.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:37Lex Fridman?

  How do you, I mean, you went for like, I don't know, two hours?

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was long. So the first, this first run of the video, I think, was a little over an hour. Then I took a break and I probably did another 45 minutes or so, but-

• 59:50Lex Fridman?

  I mean, do you, how can, are you okay with the endurance aspect of this?

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's probably like, when you talk to the arm wrestling world, that's probably what I'm best known for is, is my endurance.

• 1:00:01Lex Fridman?

  So this helps build that.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  It does, but that's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it to get strong. In my opinion, this is, this is one of the best ways to get strong. Especially far away from, from a tournament, or, or any kind of an event.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  I wouldn't want to do this, you know, even a month or even six weeks, or even maybe even eight weeks before a big event. I'd want to already be kind of shrinking my volume. But far away from an event, yeah, as much volume as your body can handle and you'll feel it. You'll feel it like I felt it at times like, you know, after the hour mark, I'm like, okay, I can feel my blood sugar kind of diminishing. I can feel like the blood that's going to my muscles is kind of like, it's not really pushing more good stuff in it's I'm starting to break down and you don't want that. You don't want that.

• 1:00:54Lex Fridman?

  Quick pause bathroom break.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  I'm good.

• 1:00:57Lex Fridman?

  Okay, I kind of need one.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  I'll maybe get a sweater. It's a bit.

• 1:01:01Lex Fridman?

  Is it cold?

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Does that matter? Does that care for?

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  No, no, I just put a sweater on, it's fine. That doesn't matter.

• 1:01:09Lex Fridman?

  And I still love the idea of you going to Russia.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:11Lex Fridman?

  And training there.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Lex Fridman?

  I'm also making a trip out to Russia.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, when?

• 1:01:16Lex Fridman?

  For different reasons. Well, it's hard with the current conflict.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:20Lex Fridman?

  The tensions there, but I'm hoping before your match, actually, so May

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:01:24Lex Fridman?

  For a couple of interviews with a couple of folks, some of which people know.

• 1:01:31Lex Fridman?

  Maybe I could ask you about

• 1:01:34Lex Fridman?

  to comment on some matches that stand out to you in your, in your career.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:01:42Lex Fridman?

  Is there something, is there a particular? I have a bunch that I really enjoy, but is there something that stands out to you as, as memorable? We talked about sort of a defining loss, perhaps the Dennis. Then you faced Michael Todd, like we mentioned, John Bresnik, you faced Matt. Is there something that stands out to you that technically or psychologically you've learned a lot from?

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  I feel like I try and learn something from every match, but there is a very special match to me that to this day I can't explain.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  Very weird phenomenon. So I think it was 2005 was my first combat tour overseas. So it was a active tour, you know, among, among other things, I, I got shot during that tour. Like we got blown and long tour, rough tour. And I trained the whole time through knowing that at the end of this, I was going to have a big match. So there's a champion guy called Ron Bath. He's kind of, if there was no John Brazil, there would be Ron Bath. Okay. So extremely decorated,

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  unbelievable arm wrestler from the United States. And this is kind of when I was just kind of coming up in the sport still. I was fairly well established. I was definitely the best guy in Canada and I had been for a few years, but I hadn't really expanded internationally too much. So I had a one-on-one match with Ron Bath and that's the one. Yeah. Extremely hard fought battle was three, one, I think three, one, but every match was really close and he won the first one and I had to kind of like dig my way out of the trenches and ended up coming back and winning. But it was a match that was probably, it was probably

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  one of my closest matches ever. And

• 1:03:57Lex Fridman?

  It seems like there's frustration on you. What, what is that? What was going through your mind here with these? Was it first of all, going in, did you think you could beat him? What was the level of confidence?

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  I always think I can win. I always do. But you know, a lot of respect to the guy. But yeah, I mean, I always think I can do it.

• 1:04:18Lex Fridman?

  So how did, what lessons did you take away from it? Why, why is it so meaningful to you?

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Well, it's what happened afterwards. So I had some kind of a release afterwards. And that was the strange thing to me. So match ended. And I felt like so relaxed afterwards, so calm, so, uh, so, you know, satisfied. Because it was one of those matches, uh, that kind of takes everything from you.

• 1:04:50Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  But you win it. And I was relaxing in the chair. And, uh, I've never had this sensation before. I've never had it afterwards. But it's like the center of my backbone just exploded. And it was like,

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  ah, so weird, right? Because I'm not really spiritual that much or religious even. But it's like a fire just ripped through me. And it only lasted an instant. Just exploded through my whole body, out, out, out, out the top, through my feet. And then it was gone. That was it. Uh, weirdest thing I've ever felt in my entire life. Yeah, but it was, it was as a result of, uh, what happened in the match. And leading up to it, I had some kind of a release.

• 1:05:40Lex Fridman?

  To what it, uh, it almost, how did you interpret it psychologically? Was it like, uh, some kind of, I mean, not to be spiritual or whatever, but some kind of superpower that was, uh, like, like a lingering feeling like, holy shit.

• 1:05:59Lex Fridman?

  I, you know.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  I can't, I can't explain it. And I haven't really tried hard enough to try to.

• 1:06:07Lex Fridman?

  But something changed.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Something happened there. Yeah. Something happened to me. I was sore for about three or four months afterwards. It's like it smoked out my entire body. Yeah, that whole summer I was kind of sore. And, uh, yeah, and then after that, like two or three years later, that's when I, I won the world championships.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, all the matches are, you know, you get something from people, like, you know, you study them. You, you take something from them. People have an invisible crown. And, uh, he had one. And I think I took it from him.

• 1:06:43Lex Fridman?

  Maybe that was the feeling of wearing the crown.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 1:06:47Lex Fridman?

  What about all the trash talk? How much of that did you learn? Does that come naturally to you? You're you're one of the most charismatic, fun. I mean, there's always like respect behind it. I would say to me, and I'm a fan of a lot of sports. You're one of the greatest trash talkers in all of sports that I've ever seen. Because you're able to talk shit.

• 1:07:08Lex Fridman?

  But there's so much love and respect behind it. It's just masterful. But you also get into people's heads. In the moment, it's beautiful to watch because it really gets it gets to some people. So where does that come from?

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  It's powerful weapon, right?

• 1:07:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  It's your voice is a powerful, powerful weapon. And it's underutilized by so many athletes. Because they think that it's not sportsmanlike or something like that. But the truth is, I mean, you can be a weak person. But with your voice, you can influence and change any number of things. And the same thing happens in a in a in a fight between two people. If you can just be a never ending, you know, flow of negative encouragement to someone or, you know, you know, suggestion, anything can happen. It's a tool.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  And when you're fighting a person, you're not just fighting them. You're fighting everyone who's watching. You're fighting the crowd, the referees. And, you know, to get in the most ideal positions, situations, you need to use your voice. Yeah.

• 1:08:24Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, and there's a for people who haven't seen, I definitely recommend you watch a bunch of arm wrestling matches. Because there's a crowd really gets into it. And it feels it feels like there's a really intimate connection with the crowd. I suppose because the crowd is allowed to be very close to you.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love it. I want the crowd like right up on me.

• 1:08:44Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:45Lex Fridman?

  So sometimes.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:50Lex Fridman?

  So who are you? Whenever you talk to somebody, you literally pick somebody from the crowd?

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'll fuck him. Like, I'll start fucking off his fans and like, yeah, like, I'll start talking to their wives or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah, there's Jody. She's pretty dangerous to listen to also. But yeah, one of his buddies, Mike Soleris, who's, you know, really good arm wrestler, was cheering for him. So I started go after him.

• 1:09:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:23Lex Fridman?

  Smiling the whole.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fun, right? It's fun.

• 1:09:26Lex Fridman?

  It's fan, it's fun to listen to. But it's also, what's fun is how much it actually affects some of the people you're facing. They get frustrated.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Lex Fridman?

  It's great to see.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Well, you have to fight, right? Like, a lot of people think things will be given to them. And the thing that, you know, I've always believed from the time I was very young, like,

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  I was convinced that our inevitable death was gonna come from aliens, right? Like, some super aggressive, super violent species was gonna come and smoke us all, you know? And I'm like, I'm not like that. I'm like, but as soon as one person is, then you're forced to have to accept it as reality, right? So I like to fight for every single thing. I like to try and be more and more aggressive. And if someone matches me, that's when I can use my endurance. And if they don't, then I have the tactical advantage. So that's kind of my balance point.

• 1:10:26Lex Fridman?

  And then, by the way, you also yell at the ref.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:29Lex Fridman?

  I mean, the games, there's like, levels to this game. But, you know, the feeling sometimes when people get frustrated is like, okay, this person's cheating. Or like, you're trying to get a good grip before it goes. And I think some of the frustration, in combination with the trash talk, is, well, this person is cheating.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:50Lex Fridman?

  But everybody is like, kind of trying to cheat, get an edge within the rules.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I try and just ramp it, ramp it, ramp it.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  But you know, everybody's different. I've learned how to play the game based off of the tools that I have physically. And for me, this works because you know, my genetic makeup is more, I'm more of a persistence hunter, right? So like, I need to extend things and that works well for me. You know, if I was more explosive, I probably wouldn't have the same strategies. Yeah.

• 1:11:30Lex Fridman?

  By the way, for people who are watching, you're wearing a No Limits hoodie, which is one of your nicknames.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  I don't wash this thing too much. It's my bacterial shield to the world. Yeah.

• 1:11:44Lex Fridman?

  Awesome. So you mentioned Jody, she's often in your corner and does perhaps more trash talking than even you. So, I mean, if we could step away, she's an incredible human being. It's sort of as a fan, it's fun to watch the two of you, both when you're arm wrestling and just as people, you just see so much, I don't know, kindness and love radiating from the two of you. Whenever you're trash talking or talking about just random things or just talking about life, it's just a beautiful thing to watch. And thank you for sharing that with the world. But maybe, can you, she paid me to ask you this, but what are the things you love about

• 1:12:28Lex Fridman?

  Jody, your wife, Jodi Larratt? What are the ways she's affected your life?

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Jody and I go way back, right? We were in high school together. The thing that I admire most in people is bravery. To me, it's the most admirable quality. And Jody always has inspired me, because she's such a fighter. You know, if she believes that something's true, she just, she does not back down. She will, she will not. And you can, not to say that she's, can't change her mind, because she can, but while she is convicted, she will, she'll not stop fighting.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  She's pulled me out of the fire repeatedly. We've, we've lived through so many things. I'm very lucky.

• 1:13:26Lex Fridman?

  How's she made you a better arm wrestler?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  She's fed me.

• 1:13:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I could see your, your videos of your house basically coming apart when she's not there.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, without Jody, I'm on the street, uh, living in a tent and, uh, yeah.

• 1:13:45Lex Fridman?

  Down by the river.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Eating dog food. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:13:50Lex Fridman?

  Bravery.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:51Lex Fridman?

  What about love? How's love made you stronger? Now we're gonna make, uh, Devon uncomfortable.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Love is difficult to accept.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Love is one of those things that, um, you know, a lot of times you don't feel worthy of it. You know, and so it's hard sometimes to accept someone's love. And someone who really loves you, they'll love you even when you don't, you know? And here you go. You're gonna make me cry, Lex.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jody and I have been through so much.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  And she's shown me how, you know, she's supported me just repeatedly, repeatedly.

• 1:14:34Lex Fridman?

  Some of that is loyalty and patience and perseverance and all those things. That's like when love really shows itself.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:43Lex Fridman?

  Sticking through.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Lex Fridman?

  Together for years, even when you're through the shitty times.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Love and faith are powerful forces in this universe, you know? Without them, we can descend into darkness very quickly, you know? As a world, even between people, you know, when love and faith is destroyed, then, then we fall apart, you know? And I've, I've been graced by, by the love that Jody's given me, you know? It's, it's allowed me to continue to build, you know? When you have love between people, then you build together. I love, I love my family. I love Canada. I love the arm wrestling community. I have a love for what we're trying to achieve as a human species, you know?

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  And, uh, you know, when, when that, when that falls apart, we don't have much. Yeah, just with my boy there. Yeah.

• 1:15:39Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. She, um, you also mentioned you were, uh, in a.

• 1:15:45Lex Fridman?

  You once had a job where your death was a real possibility. You see, you were in the Canadian Special Forces. What did you take away from that experience? That time in your life?

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  It was such a, such a great life. Really, really loved it. I honestly, I never, I never wanted to leave. I never thought I would leave. I thought I'd be there my whole life. Real honor to, to get to serve.

• 1:16:15Lex Fridman?

  What, what did you get to do? What, what was the things you loved craftsmanship wise? Like fun things you get to do? Learn and challenge yourself?

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:22Lex Fridman?

  And, and you mentioned sort of honor?

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Lex Fridman?

  In terms of the, the, the serving part?

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. My favorite thing about serving in the Special Forces was for sure, the people that I worked with. That's probably the first thing I could say. You know, I never, I always felt like totally comfortable and, and putting my life in the other guy's hands. I was so happy to be in a place where I felt I could follow. Like, didn't matter. Like I knew that the people ahead of me were, were incredible. I knew the people beside me were incredible. So just having that faith in your team is very special. And to know that they're for, they're for a reason that has nothing to do with money.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  You know, there, and that's what kind of brings everybody together is you're there to, for a higher purpose. And in terms of being an adrenaline junkie, there's nothing like it. I mean, there's nothing like, you know, going out at night and fighting. And when I say fighting, like my whole life, I wanted to fight. And to me, there's a lot of, and, and look at, I, I've said this in the past, and I think it's been a personal failure of mine. Because I've said things like, it's the highest level that you can do. And I don't believe that to be true anymore. But at the time, I thought it was the best way I could express my drives that I had, you know, to be a fighter.

• 1:17:57Lex Fridman?

  So, oh, it's your sense in the past, and maybe in part now is that sort of fighting is when humans get a chance to express themselves deeply. Like, like that, that mix of the bravery, the integrity.

• 1:18:12Lex Fridman?

  The

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:14Lex Fridman?

  Whatever that is that makes us human, that human spirit can really shine.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  And I don't believe that anymore. I believe that you can do that in any field, in any discipline. You know, if you go hard enough, it all kind of starts to feel the same. But at the time, that, you know, expression to me was really, really awesome. I, I loved, I loved close quarter battle. That was my favorite thing. That's really the whole reason I was there.

• 1:18:41Lex Fridman?

  Can you describe close quarter battle?

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Close quarter battle is, is team fighting. So, and it can look a lot of different ways. But basically it's ground troops doing some kind of a mission. And it's the orchestrated movement that is the skill, the orchestrated movement and the drills done quickly and accurately. It's, it's, it's very difficult.

• 1:19:07Lex Fridman?

  With communication?

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  With communication.

• 1:19:09Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So, so it's basically cooperating together, communicating.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Lex Fridman?

  There's some strategy, there's some adapting to the changing environment.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  And the more the team works together, the less communication there is. Yeah. Yeah. And that's an amazing thing to do, to be part of a machine, well, machine, a team of people who can fight together like that. It's, I think it's, it's, uh, we're really designed to do it. Like as good as we can fight as individuals, the thing that makes us really good is our ability to fight as, as a team. Yeah.

• 1:19:44Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Where that's one of the things that makes us really human is that collective intelligence, the social aspect. And, uh, fighting is the highest of stakes. So like that's social interaction under the highest of stakes is, uh, it really does bring out something that's deeply human.

• 1:20:03Lex Fridman?

  I mean, war in general brings out something deeply human.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:20:08Lex Fridman?

  It's, I mean, obvious to say that it's tragic that it results in so much loss of life and wellbeing.

• 1:20:19Lex Fridman?

  Let me, if it's okay, for a brief moment to take us back to, um, arm wrestling. We, we, we did this like offline. We talked about, you gave me some advice and about arm wrestling. But maybe do a high level overview of, um, like the different styles and strategies.

• 1:20:39Lex Fridman?

  That we've talked about, we talked about the importance of strength and power. But is there like offensive, defensive styles? Is there, we mentioned King's move. What would you classify your style as? It's nice for people that don't know, maybe even zoom back out. So arm wrestling is a sport.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:59Lex Fridman?

  Where two people have to, when we talk about strictly the sport, put their elbow on a particular pad. Means they have to keep that elbow on that pad. And they win when the back of one of their hands crosses some kind of, or basically touches the table.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:21:21Lex Fridman?

  And when you actually lock up, you do so depending on the organization without straps. Meaning there's just you agree, it's like mutual agreement that you're going to

• 1:21:37Lex Fridman?

  clasp your hands in a way that's fair. And there's a referee that helps ensure that it's fair. But of course, there's these little games going on. And then when you actually go all out with this battle, if there's no straps, you can slip out. And so often you'll put the straps, which means you're, it's like marriage.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:55Lex Fridman?

  You're committed.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:57Lex Fridman?

  For like, somebody will have to lose essentially. There's no pulling out. So that's sort of the battle within that. What are the different styles that you can speak to that people that don't know arm wrestling could?

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, we can start to kind of just dance around the subject a bit. I'd say there's a lot of different types. There's specialists and there's kind of blenders and people who are very versatile.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  A lot of guys win world championships on one singular move. They get just extremely crisp at say a hook or a top roll. And their style is very kind of focused and you'll see it with a lot of athletes like. Kind of a talk guy about guy who's very active guy called Jerry Catterett. Okay, as soon as you think Jerry Catterett, he's got a very unique style. He's got a flop wrist press. Okay, so most of his technique is built around this one system.

• 1:23:01Lex Fridman?

  Flop wrist means you're.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:05Lex Fridman?

  What it sounds like.

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:06Lex Fridman?

  So your wrist is flopped.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:08Lex Fridman?

  Looks like you're losing. So he is pushing from a losing position.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  No, he will be offensive. So he will be in a press so offensively, so he'll give his hand away so that he can get his shoulder behind it properly.

• 1:23:21Lex Fridman?

  So he doesn't. Wow.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:24Lex Fridman?

  You can press, press means put like push.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  Push.

• 1:23:28Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:30Lex Fridman?

  Without having that hook position.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Right, which is what most people are always looking for. And Jerry's looking for it as well. And then, so example, there's another one, there's another specialist, Matt Mask.

• 1:23:42Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  He's top roller, right? He basically, that's his, that's his great move is a top roll. And his other weapons aren't nearly as powerful. This incredible top roll. And then you have a lot of athletes that are more blended. Okay, they have a lot of good options. I think that I probably fall more into that category. You have people who are more speed guys. Okay, so they try and do very little, I'd call it attrition. Right, so a lot of people are very willing to trade energy. Right, because they have faith that their, their gas tank or their pool eventually will tire the other person out. So anytime there's a trade, they'll trade.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  Whereas, you know, a guy like Travis Bajin, you know, he was very, very well known as being extremely explosive. Right, but if the match stops, typically he's gonna lose.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Alright, so based off of your genetics, your hand, you know, there's a lot of ways to skin it.

• 1:24:47Lex Fridman?

  So, I think you said something like, you're a 20-second guy.

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  That's right, I'm a 20-second guy.

• 1:24:57Lex Fridman?

  So, what are we, what are the seconds we're talking about? So, a lot of the power people, they want to win in the first maybe five seconds.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Even shorter.

• 1:25:05Lex Fridman?

  Just that first push, that first press.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:25:08Lex Fridman?

  And that's it.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  Right to the pad, yeah.

• 1:25:11Lex Fridman?

  And so, you're trying to hold off that attack?

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, if I beat you in a second, we're not in the same world. Yeah.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  When I'm with my peer group, I will typically win 20 seconds and beyond. That's a typical win for me, when I'm with a peer.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  Whereas, other guys, when they're with their peers, they'll win in a second, right? That's how they do it. That's, that's the way they're built, that's the way they, they train.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, most guys at a higher level, it all starts to kind of, it starts to get more and more difficult to be a specialist at the high level now. Some people just have little holes in their games.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  It's rare to get someone who can really do all the moves. It's very rare.

• 1:25:59Lex Fridman?

  What, where would you put Levon?

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  I would not say he's a specialist. I'd say his top roll is the strongest move.

• 1:26:08Lex Fridman?

  Top roll?

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Top roll is the strongest move, yeah. And, and the interesting thing about the, the specialist versus the blender,

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  there's a counter, right? Every move has a move that theoretically should be the right choice. So, if you're a single-move guy, there's going to be a guy out there who'll get you. Yeah, it'll be very difficult for you to beat that guy.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  But, like, when you come to like, a tournament, typically specialists do much better in tournament scenarios. Because their singular move can get them through a tournament very quickly and efficiently. Whereas you get a blender in a tournament, they typically will have longer and more difficult matches.

• 1:26:55Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. Yeah, but in, in, in super-match format, typically blenders do better.

• 1:27:03Lex Fridman?

  So we offline also talked about arm sumo or freedom arm wrestling. I don't know how you want to call it.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Oh, I love freedom.

• 1:27:14Lex Fridman?

  Exactly, North American way.

• 1:27:17Lex Fridman?

  So what, so this is, this is this idea and I watched a few videos and it looks fun. It's basically removing the restriction of having to keep your elbow on the pad and just being able to arm wrestle over the whole table. I think you've mentioned that the criticism that gets is it might be injury prone or something like that. So can you describe this arm sumo, freedom arm wrestling idea?

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Right. When you come to freedom arm wrestling, basically it removes the limitation of a standard arm wrestling table.

• 1:27:49Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Right. So basically every single thing is a freedom arm wrestling table. Some are better than others. Alright, so looking for that nice table where we can kind of stand apart from each other and we're anatomically, you know, in a fairly safe position. And the rules in freedom, the way you win is like the knuckles must either touch the tabletop or you hold it off the edge for a three count. Right. So this is the main way to win. Yes, you can foul, like if you lift your elbow up, it's still a foul. But you have the entire playing surface. So your elbow is no longer limited to your seven by seven or seven by nine pad. So you can move it all over the table. You can move your body around the table a bit too.

• 1:28:30Lex Fridman?

  And if it's a big table, your body could largely be on the table.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So basically it's like adjusting your ring size. So arm wrestling, you're fighting in a phone booth.

• 1:28:40Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Right. So you're fighting in a field, you're fighting, you know, just bigger. So it just, it just makes the sport bigger. Yeah, this is Japan.

• 1:28:48Lex Fridman?

  But even on a small table, there, even in a slightly larger phone booth, you can get a lot more fun and variety.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Way more. I love it. I think it makes the sport bigger. I actually believe that it's the future of the sport. I really do.

• 1:29:03Lex Fridman?

  Because it makes it more accessible. Like you don't need the equipment. You can do it at a bar.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:29:07Lex Fridman?

  All that kind of stuff.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Less, less equipment requirements. Kids, most kids start freedom. Like most kids arm wrestle on school desks.

• 1:29:15Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like if you see a guy on the street, like whatever, like you can arm wrestle anywhere. You don't need to bring your table around with you.

• 1:29:23Lex Fridman?

  If we talked about the elite level, if somebody was interested in starting in arm wrestling,

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:31Lex Fridman?

  or like going from just like, you know, I go to the gym, you kind of lift, you've arm wrestled a few times, trying to get better at it, trying to learn, how would you advise like getting better to where you can beat your closest buddies?

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:48Lex Fridman?

  That first step?

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  First step, I'd say find people, find people, find good people.

• 1:29:57Lex Fridman?

  Volume.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Get, we'll get with a club, get with people who know what they're doing, who can mentor you.

• 1:30:01Lex Fridman?

  And that's really cool. I got to meet, I realized there's a club in Austin.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:05Lex Fridman?

  Sure there's in a lot of places.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  They're everywhere. We, we got this app called Armbat.

• 1:30:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Which is a app that helps you find other people there.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, very easy, but I mean, they're all over social networks. I mean, it's kind of widespread now. But yeah, find people, find people, and it's just much easier to learn with another person and you'll get stronger that way. But I mean, do this, do the lifts. I mean, if you go to the gym, just start doing the lifts and right away, those will technically prepare you.

• 1:30:39Lex Fridman?

  What are, what are the lifts? Can we describe?

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I'd say if you want to just keep it very, very simple, let's just talk about three. There's more, there's much more than three, but like when you talk about energy allocation, these three lifts, in my opinion, should be like 90% of your investment. It's, it's very big, these three lifts. And the exact percentages can, you can argue about it, but we'll, we'll start off with the cupping of the wrist. Just this, this is a simple thing and do it with a cable. You know, you can get a thicker diameter, so it kind of, you know, is, is more out on your fingers where an armrest is going to attack you, right? Because any good armrest is going to attack your fingers.

• 1:31:25Lex Fridman?

  So like open hand?

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  No, no. Well, I mean, for health, yes, you could. But like, if you want to be really specific, you train exactly the way you would at a table in the position that you actually start the match.

• 1:31:37Lex Fridman?

  And then you're just doing this kind of?

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  Yes, to your center. Your people, people, one of the, one of the big misconceptions in arm wrestling is that you're aiming for that pin pad. No. The chest up here. Bring it close to you. Make it come close to you, right? You see, like, whenever I do my exercises, the the vector is always pulling straight towards me. Yeah. Yeah, so just, you know, cupping close to you. The most dangerous thing that a person can do to me on an arm wrestling match is just pull me away from my body. That's a terrible thing for me. Yeah, so so that cupping. Yeah. That's a massive part of the sport. Uh, so now, when you think, what does the cup do to the other person?

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  If I cup, they get turned over. Right? So this has to get really strong.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  This pro nation, so. So to fight the to to fight that rolling. Exactly. Yeah, so that's that's through the thumb. Yeah. Oh, so you put, uh, got it. You put on the thumb and you put this motion. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. And those two things, those two things together, this cupping and rolling, this is what's gonna make the person's hand bend back. And once the person's hand is bent back, they're just their whole game gets cut to pieces. Got it. They have very little good options. It's all like nasty stuff. Wow. Yeah, so those two things, that's a that's a huge part of of your of your investment.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  Rise. Always be climbing. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, those three simple things, that's what I would tell anybody to spend most of their time on if you want to become an arm wrestler. So and to use bands would be good for this. Bands are great because they're easy to transport. The only problem I have with bands is like, if you like to measure, you know, and if you like to be precise, bands just aren't that precise. Right, to to have growth. Yeah. Yeah. Just, I mean, it's just like, you know, you know exactly what you need. The prescription is kind of a band is kind of like, and a lot of people, myself included, I like to, um, I like to know exactly my outputs. So so weights.

• 1:33:59Lex Fridman?

  So it would be like cables?

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  Yep. Cables are nice. Bands are great, too. I, I, I mix the two. Bands are, uh, when I kind of don't need to, they're more like easy for me. I, when I train bands, uh, bands are dangerous because the acceleration is so high on them. Like when you screw up with band training, the acceleration is way faster than gravity, right? So if you do something bad, it can, can make it go really much worse.

• 1:34:26Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. It's funny that you didn't mention bicep curls or, uh,

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Well, it's a chain. It's a chain.

• 1:34:34Lex Fridman?

  And so you're, I mean, the idea, if you focus on these three, the other stuff catches up, like it's all involved. This whole, this whole thing is involved.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  So if you have an axe, right? The blade of the axe, that's, that's these things, right? Like you need the, the pointy end of all your attacks to be awesome, right?

• 1:34:56Lex Fridman?

  If you have a super sharp axe,

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:58Lex Fridman?

  You could have a shitty hand.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 1:35:01Lex Fridman?

  Right? Yeah. So focus on that, the, the pointy, the

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:04Lex Fridman?

  tip of the axe.

• 1:35:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. The tip of the axe is so important, right? Like if I have an awesome bicep and I can't quite use it, what's it good for, right?

• 1:35:13Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. I think a lot of the motions with the wrist that you mentioned are, uh, just thinking about jiu jitsu, especially in the gi.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:20Lex Fridman?

  Um, there's a lot of, I mean, there's so much importance to this and people don't often work it, um, explicitly.

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Lex Fridman?

  So many of the chokes require

• 1:35:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:31Lex Fridman?

  ability to, it's almost like exactly like arm wrestling.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Very close.

• 1:35:34Lex Fridman?

  Because you're weak here, uh, what's that called? Flop wrist?

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:39Lex Fridman?

  And you're strong with the cup, oh yeah. And so you, just getting the muscle, the whatever that's involved, the muscle, the turning, the pressure, because that's where also the choke comes. That little, the thing that makes you win in arm wrestling is also the thing that finishes the person when you have them grabbed.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  The strength is very similar.

• 1:36:00Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. It's fascinating, actually. Of course, like you said, if you want to be very good, you should be doing the very specific, exact motion.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if I was gonna do jiu jitsu, I'd be like working out with the gi.

• 1:36:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. The problem is, you know, uh, it's difficult to construct.

• 1:36:18Lex Fridman?

  The, um, the exact, so you have to actually go with people and then they don't like being choked on.

• 1:36:25Lex Fridman?

  Right? So like, it's hard to, I'm actually a big, we have these kinds of debates all the time is, um, you know, I'm a big believer in drilling. I love doing something thousands of times. Like John Donahue, somebody I, I mentioned to you about the jujitsu folks here. They're less believers in drilling. They, they see the value of, almost like the mind of, of, of going live and exploring ideas. It's that play. You don't need to do the thing a thousand times. You just need to always be thinking about the little details that make you, uh, make you better. And then in action practicing, like developing the strength, the power, the explosiveness, the agility in action.

• 1:37:09Lex Fridman?

  So actually rolling, I don't, you know, I, I, I agree with this, but I just believe in volume more.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you can accomplish it through volume. You can, you can play a lot.

• 1:37:21Lex Fridman?

  Yes, exactly. Well, that's the, if you really want to get it good is you're talking about, I mean, that's why, uh, a lot of these folks are training three times a day. They're doing, you know, they're putting in the hours, eight hours, nine hours, just, just.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  That's tough. Oh my God.

• 1:37:38Lex Fridman?

  Well, so there are a lot of them are not doing, going hard. It's just being on the mat. Some of it is just sitting there, talking through ideas, watching others or teaching, explaining stuff. It's just, it's like, it's not just physical. It's, it's, uh, mental too. Cause you're keeping in your mind and some of the greatest, that's what they talk about. The, the wrestlers I've talked with, the fighters, at the top of their career, they basically, uh, George St. Pierre is like this, another fellow Canadian is, uh, like has stick figures in his head. They can't help.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:14Lex Fridman?

  They're like in there. Cause if you train enough hours, you're, it's just going to be in your head and they're all going to be playing around in your head.

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:22Lex Fridman?

  And some little detail over time, it's almost like computing or something like that. And that ends up, uh, having a result even though you're not physically doing anything. It's, it's, it's always in there.

• 1:38:36Lex Fridman?

  I do have to return to diet real quick. I know we're talking about pancakes. Let me, quite seriously, you are one of the, I mean, strongest athletes in the world for your sport. So you have to get big, you have to get powerful, you have to get strong.

• 1:38:56Lex Fridman?

  What is the right diet for you for that? Like, what do you eat? How often do you eat?

• 1:39:05Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, from the highest detail to the smallest, or the things that make you happy and feel good.

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've experimented with every diet. I've done it all. I've been a vegan. I've done raw, I've eaten only meat, I've eaten balanced, I've eaten like a bodybuilder. You know, you name it, I've probably tried it.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  I don't believe that it's as important in the sport of arm wrestling as it is perhaps in other sports. I believe that, I mean, just to be very basic, I mean, if you're eating enough food, you're probably gonna be okay.

• 1:39:49Lex Fridman?

  So it's just calories?

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  It's a lot, I mean, it really, I mean, not to overcomplicate it, but I mean, that's, that's where the conversation starts, are you eating enough food?

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  And it can come in any number of ways and I, I don't think it's as important as a lot of other people do. I'm certainly irresponsible in a lot, but the thing is, is back to like, volume, right? Like, you need to, like, if, if you want to be a super heavyweight, it's very different than if you want to be a weight category guy. If you want to be a weight category guy, I'd say that you need to be more responsible, make better choices. If you want to be a super heavyweight, everything.

• 1:40:33Lex Fridman?

  So we're watching a delicious looking omelet, so eggs, bacon, syrup, so you don't care carbs, so in all the things you try. So I mostly eat meat now. And I landed on that, there's several things, you know, obviously I'm not. But I do a lot of sport.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:50Lex Fridman?

  And I was very surprised how my particular, very specific body could perform better with only meat. Why better? The sports I do, the mind matters. And so for some reason, my mind is just clear.

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:03Lex Fridman?

  And I don't think, because it feels unhealthy. It just makes me feel really good. I don't think I would recommend it to anybody else. So it's, it's interesting that that journey of just exploring can take you to figure out something about your own self.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  One of the most interesting things that I heard about nutrition was, I heard there was a

• 1:41:26Lex Fridman?

  Actually Doritos.

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm an idiot.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  Now, I do, I'd say over the last couple of years, I've really gone into, into carbs a lot and high glycemic carbs. And, you know, just to, I, I feel like it's one of the best things you can do if you're working out really hard. Just cheers. Add carb. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  But, oh, where was I?

• 1:41:52Lex Fridman?

  So, so you've had

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  Distracted.

• 1:41:54Lex Fridman?

  Syrup is so delicious.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  It's distracting.

• 1:41:56Lex Fridman?

  No, the, so you've added the high glycemic carbs into the mix. So that you, those help, but that's for mass building.

• 1:42:03Speaker 01

  Right. So there was a study that I heard about by somebody who's trying to identify heart attacks. They did this great big study. And at the end of it, I mean, didn't matter what the people ate. The, the most important thing was how they felt about the food that they were eating. Yeah. So if you believe in the food, if you believe that it's going to do good things for you, and if you allocate it the right way, it's, it's going to have a positive impact. And I try and do that, no matter what it is. Like I have my foods that I think do certain things. And so, you know, for me, I know that, actually, I mean, I learnt about corn fed pumps when I was overseas.

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  I realized that if I, I never used to eat crap, really didn't. I ate super clean all the time. And

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  When I was faced with imminent death more, I would be like, okay, I'm going out tonight. Let's have, let's have a couple of ice cream bars. You know, like, whatever. And what I realized is if I eat like an entire bag of chips or like, you know, a bunch of chocolate bars, and then I go and have a workout, my workout will be incredible. It'll be incredible.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  There's something about easily processed carbohydrates that will continue to quickly get into your blood as fast as you can burn it. And there's something about that that, well, gives you incredible blood, blood flow. Yeah.

• 1:43:48Lex Fridman?

  And also your mind plugging in, enjoying that.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:51Lex Fridman?

  And then believing it works. And that's how it makes it work better.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:43:56Lex Fridman?

  I mean, I, I feel that way. I think this is really not, this has been frustrating to me about the health culture in the United States and the studies that are done. You know, you look at like the, the importance of sleep, the importance of X diet, all those kinds of things. I, I wish incorporated into that would be your mental relationship with all these things. So for example, people that tell me, well, your sleep schedule is insane. Yes, perhaps, but also it's insane because I'm doing what I love and I don't see it as a problem.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:31Lex Fridman?

  And I, I think that's really important to understand. If, if you, if you're, if you sleep in crazy hours,

• 1:44:42Lex Fridman?

  is not affecting your stress and is actually making you happy or you're drawing some kind of source of happiness and pleasure and satisfaction, like being awake when others aren't. It's like the Mike Tyson thing or something, like training when you, you've convinced yourself everybody's sleeping and therefore you're somehow training much better.

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:45:01Lex Fridman?

  That's powerful, even if you look statistically, six hours, maybe worse than eight hours or four hours, maybe worse than six hours. So the mind is a powerful thing.

• 1:45:11Speaker 01

  Super powerful. But if you want to be a super heavyweight,

• 1:45:14Lex Fridman?

  eat.

• 1:45:16Speaker 01

  You gotta eat like stupid amounts all the time. Yeah, you have to test your digestive system.

• 1:45:22Lex Fridman?

  What's your favorite meal, by the way? Just if you had to, you know.

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  You know, I am, uh, I do, oh geez, I like so much food. It's tough, but I'd say the food that I rely on a lot when I'm getting ready to compete is sushi. Just because it normally comes in an all you can eat format. You know, uh, so, you know, I love to go and just binge all you can eat. Just all you can eat buffets. Sushi is just super convenient.

• 1:45:49Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Uh, if I was a sushi, all you can eat buffet place, I'd be terrified when I saw you. Have you had barbecue at Texas?

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  I, yeah, I love it. I love it. Yeah.

• 1:46:00Lex Fridman?

  So you, uh, just a small tangent on this. You, you, uh, face the mountain. Uh, have for, uh, uh, be honest. Well, first of all, you arm wrestled them. It's interesting to ask, um, so this is the mountain from the game of thrones. A strong man, one of the strongest people in the world for a time, the strongest person in the world. What was it like? I, I know sort of you guys maybe weren't going 1,000%, but what's it like?

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Well, he probably wasn't going 1,000%.

• 1:46:28Lex Fridman?

  But like what, it's interesting to think, what does that strength feel like? So it's a, it's a specialized strength in another sport.

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:38Lex Fridman?

  What did it feel like? What, how strong was he? What are some kind of deep insights he drawn from that battle?

• 1:46:47Speaker 01

  I feel like if we were to go back a thousand years, and if you give him armor and a two handed sword, he will just rip across the landscape. And, and no one will stop him.

• 1:47:03Lex Fridman?

  So this is the boxing match you attended, but there's also a video of them arm wrestling.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, what a Titan though. What a Titan. You know, a guy like that, tall, Yeah. Strong, fit, disciplined. I mean, he is, he's quite a warrior. 419 pounds? Oh, yeah, yeah. He's, he's incredibly impressive. I really like Hap Thor and I like Eddie Hall too. And I was just so, I'm just so caught up with the drama. Okay, so, so Eddie Hall and Hap Thor Bjornson. Yes. Two of the strongest legendary strongmen that we have. Uh, at, at, you know, and they were the coolest, they were the top when Strongman was really super cool.

• 1:47:51Speaker 01

  I don't know all the details, but they legit hit each other. Like legit. So I think it kind of stems, I don't know, like, like I say, I'm not right there with them, but,

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  Eddie won the, the World's Strongest Man event or something one year. And like, and the thing, it was one of those victories where Hap Thor, you know, was not accepting of his defeat. Okay. And there was a little bit of back and forth. Basically, from what I understand, they were going to fight like the knight of the world's strongest man. And they got, kind of got pulled apart and this, uh, this heat between them got translated into a potential boxing match. So it's very real. It's a very real fight. So you have the two strongest dudes on the planet are going to fight each other. So, so I've been like, you know, cause arm wrestling and Strongman, it's, it's kind of similar communities. Who, who do you got? If you, if you were giving me financial advice.

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  Oh, Jesus. I am so bad. I always call it wrong. They're very different. Uh, I, I see, uh, Hap Thor as being, you know, Well, Eddie Hall slimming down, is that what? Yeah. Wow. I see Hap Thor as a bit more regimented. Um, but I see Eddie Hall as like way more barbaric and like, I think he's a little bit more athletic. But Hap Thor is bigger and, uh, and you know, they've chosen slightly different paths to prepare for the match. But, but what happened was like they were about to fight and Eddie, Eddie Hall blew his bicep.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  So me, I was getting ready for Levon in December. We were supposed to arm wrestle in December. But he's got his movie. And so I was like, okay, I can kind of get away from the sport just a little bit, broaden my base. That happened and I was like, oh, an opportunity.

• 1:49:44Lex Fridman?

  You stepped in.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  An opportunity to fight. I'm like, I'll do it. So.

• 1:49:47Lex Fridman?

  How much training you, uh, you, you trained a little bit. So can you tell about your own decision to do that? What was the training like? What was it?

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, it was so much fun. It was so much fun. Uh, so basically I made a funny video and I sent it to the organizers of Core Sports that I would do it. I'm like, I'll do it. I'm sure they got a thousand people who wanted to do it. But I'm like, I'm like, listen, I'm like, I, I'm an old man, like I'm gimped up, like everywhere outside the arm wrestling lanes. I said, but, but I will 100%. Like if you let me fight him, I'll, I'll give it my all. And, uh, and whatever. They didn't get back to me. They're like, yeah, whatever. Okay. So then, so then they call me on a Friday, like five weeks before the event. And they're like, hey, Devin, were you serious? And I'm like, oh shit.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  And I'm like, yes, I was serious. Yeah, I'll do it. And they're like, okay.

• 1:50:47Speaker 01

  They're like, it's down to you and like two other people. Uh, we'll get back to you in a, in a day or two, but you would do it. And I'm like, okay. So they got back to me on Sunday. Like, so right away, I'm like skipping rope and I'm like, and I'm so, I only arm wrestle legs. That's all I do.

• 1:51:04Lex Fridman?

  So what was your, you did some striking training?

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I went to, um, this guy that he was, he was awesome, Zach Benbushida there. Uh, that was it from, from TriStar. Do you know Faras the Hobby?

• 1:51:19Lex Fridman?

  And yes, people in the comments, I will interview him on this podcast and people.

• 1:51:23Speaker 01

  He's brilliant.

• 1:51:24Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  Right. He's an incredible guy. So right away, like I had no idea about the fight community across Canada really. And I got like. By the fifth message that said you must train with Faras, I was like, okay. Called him up. He was incredible right away. He's like, yeah, you can come and we'll just work with you. So I got, I got the call. I called him on like Monday at two o'clock. By like seven o'clock, I had my things packed and I went to Montreal and I spent four weeks in, in the fighter dorms.

• 1:51:57Lex Fridman?

  Just humbling yourself.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Every day, just getting punched in the face, you know, uh, over and over, uh, going for runs with all, like, they're all like Olympians and pro fighters living in the dorms. Super cool dudes. They were so good to me.

• 1:52:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's a good video of you and Faras, uh, just talking.

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:16Lex Fridman?

  I, I don't, I don't remember which stage this was, but basically. But you were already beginning to get humbled.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I knew. I mean, I knew what I was getting into. Like, I knew it was, I knew it was gonna be a losing battle, but I felt like the opportunity to fight Thor, like, how cool is that? Like, I had, I, I had to say, I had to do it.

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  I love the process and I learned a lot from doing it. Like, the dorms, I wanna do something like that with arm wrestling. I think we're big enough now that we can have these kind of, uh, you know, dorms, frat houses, whatever you wanna call it.

• 1:52:53Lex Fridman?

  What, what's the dorm like? So you're basically staying there?

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:56Lex Fridman?

  Food is there?

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:57Lex Fridman?

  So you can, you can, you mentioned, uh, what was the word you used? Administration?

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. That's it.

• 1:53:03Lex Fridman?

  So it removes all of that?

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Makes it so simple.

• 1:53:05Lex Fridman?

  You can just focus.

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  You know, the gym is here, you live here.

• 1:53:08Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:09Speaker 01

  You know, that your life becomes simple. Yeah.

• 1:53:13Lex Fridman?

  So there's a guy named Jimmy Pedro here in America. He's a famous, uh, coach. There's a place up in Boston. He has kind of a dorm like that, too.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:20Lex Fridman?

  And it, that, that becomes essential when the community is small, but you're trying to do epic things.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:28Lex Fridman?

  Like winning Olympic gold.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:30Lex Fridman?

  So you have to really put the people together in these kind of minimalist conditions where they just focus on the training, focus, focus, focus.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:53:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't enough time. I mean, I trained for about

• 1:53:41Lex Fridman?

  Well, yes.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  three or four weeks. But I I loved the journey and

• 1:53:47Lex Fridman?

  Well, what are some of the fun things you enjoy? So you did mostly striking? Did you? Yeah, I guess it was

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was boxing.

• 1:53:52Lex Fridman?

  It was straight up boxing.

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  Boxing, yeah.

• 1:53:54Lex Fridman?

  What are some things that were transferable? What are some cool things you learned from that? So from the world of arm wrestling, have you taken anything back? Like some training regimens, ideas about training, even just even even movements? Because for us, it's a unique mind as well for training.

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I don't know. I mean, I've gone very far down the path of arm wrestling. Boxing and arm wrestling are very different. They're they're very different sports.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  The the physicality required is very different. You know, the mentality, I mean, it's fighting. So it's another form of fighting, which is cool. The the big things that I took back from it. The things that I loved about it was I had to run again. You know?

• 1:54:46Lex Fridman?

  So really work on endurance?

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I was going for runs with guys in the dorms and they'd they would just destroy me. Just like it was so bad.

• 1:54:58Lex Fridman?

  Did you?

• 1:55:01Lex Fridman?

  Like, how did you feel in the actual boxing in terms of endurance? Were you able to?

• 1:55:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:55:08Lex Fridman?

  It's just torture.

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  It was it was terrible. And and and the thing is, is it was so crazy for me because I really was good once upon a time.

• 1:55:16Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  I really was like physically, like I had incredible full body endurance, you know? But, you know, being so specialized, I realized how much I had slipped. And yeah, it was it was fun to try and regain. I think it's affected my body composition. I think since that training, I've become much more lean. I think it was a very healthy thing for me to do, like health wise, like I always think that, you know, when you're far away from competition, it's really good to kind of spread out. Really good. So I think that in that way.

• 1:55:48Lex Fridman?

  Also for your mind.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:50Lex Fridman?

  Just like

• 1:55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:53Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it's something about clearing your

• 1:55:57Lex Fridman?

  I think you've talked about this is like you're basically taking steps back before you take steps forward is I forget how you call it.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, the wave.

• 1:56:06Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, under, you know, you have to go under, you got to, you know, if you want to go above the line, you have to spend some time beneath it. And yeah, I was definitely beneath the line for a long time. But mountain, I mean, like, the interesting thing was as incredible as he is.

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  You know, like, what a monster. And I think if you had had him training in boxing, you know, for a long time and like from his youth. I think you, you know, the guy could be world champion, but you know, to be so specialized and then to switch, you're at a disadvantage. And and also, like, I know from just fighting guys in the gym in TriStar. Some of those guys were way scarier, for real, like as scary as Thor is, like, there's guys in that TriStar gym. That don't look like anything that would murder me much worse, much worse.

• 1:57:07Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, but also, you know, that's the difference between being in the gym and under the lights too. I mean, GSB is an example, George St Pierre is an example, somebody that maybe doesn't look terrifying.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  He's at a TriStar.

• 1:57:19Lex Fridman?

  Yep, he's he trains at TriStar, but he's quite, he's super nice, super humble, but is terrifying when he's fighting.

• 1:57:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:28Lex Fridman?

  Is dominating people. You mentioned death.

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:33Lex Fridman?

  And your Canadian special forces and in general, thinking about mortality.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:39Lex Fridman?

  Do you think about your death? Do you?

• 1:57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:42Lex Fridman?

  Do you contemplate the the end that this thing that this ride ends?

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  All the time. Yeah, from I've thought about death from a young age.

• 1:57:52Lex Fridman?

  Are you afraid of it?

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hate it. Yeah, I don't want to die. Yeah, definitely, definitely don't want to die. But there's times when I can rid myself of it. Yeah, but for sure. I mean, I'm not. I'm not happy that, you know, death is inevitable and I'm not happy that potentially it's inevitable for all of us.

• 1:58:16Speaker 01

  But it does, you know, I like to to fight against it.

• 1:58:22Lex Fridman?

  Does it, if you, if you could be immortal, would you?

• 1:58:25Speaker 01

  Oh, that's my only wish.

• 1:58:27Lex Fridman?

  Oh, see, but here's the thing, that's, but the point is to have that wish. It's, uh, it's like the all you can eat buffet at, uh, sushi. It's that sushi is more delicious if you have a limit.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  Do you have a, oh, well, I don't know. I mean, I, I don't think I get sick of stuff. I'm very simple. Yeah, I don't think I would get tired of it. I really don't. Um, I mean, if someone would pose it to you, do you want to live forever? You would choose no?

• 1:58:56Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I would choose no.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  Choose no?

• 1:58:58Lex Fridman?

  Well, my answer is probably yes. Uh, like, no, I would, uh, it's more like the snooze button. Do you wanna, do you, do you?

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  Well, you could go to sleep.

• 1:59:10Lex Fridman?

  But it's very difficult in the moment to go to sleep, but if, if I'm, uh, allowed to live forever,

• 1:59:18Lex Fridman?

  I'm going to, uh, delay all the crazy, like, um, all the ambitious goals, all the, all the thing, because, oh, there's always time.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  That's fine, but there is tomorrow then.

• 1:59:30Lex Fridman?

  But there is tomorrow, but see, I think that takes away from the richness of, like, the richness of the lived experience of just each moment. I think the richness of each moment comes from saying like, I could die tonight. Like that, that it tastes delicious because you're going to die. I'm, I'm afraid if, if you're not, I'm afraid all of that goes away. All of that magic goes away if you can live forever.

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  I don't know. But I'll tell you, every time I have a near death experience or think I'm going to die, I definitely live better afterwards. Yeah, like, uh, it's always been that way, but yeah, no, um.

• 2:00:11Lex Fridman?

  That's why the Stoics, you know, they really preach contemplating your mortality often. It kind of reminds you, it could, this whole thing could just end any moment and it makes you really appreciate. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Certainly improving the quality of life is important, but, um.

• 2:00:33Lex Fridman?

  Part of me thinks that immortality is not as fun as we would like to imagine.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  Do you think that maybe you're, I mean, what you're building potentially is immortal?

• 2:00:47Lex Fridman?

  Well, that's what I definitely think about with robots.

• 2:00:53Lex Fridman?

  If they were to have a human-like experience and be able to interact with humans in a deep, meaningful way, I think they too have to be mortal in some fundamental way that means mortal. Like their ride has to end as well because they won't be able to interact with humans deeply unless that's the case.

• 2:01:15Lex Fridman?

  Like to have, to have fear, to have love, the ability to suffer, the ability to miss somebody. I think scarcity is important. You have to be able to truly lose somebody. You have to be, to fear things, you have to truly have the risk of destroying yourself. And to have a sense of what it means to be a self.

• 2:01:45Lex Fridman?

  You have to be able to lose it. So if you're immortal, you're just going to be, I feel like you're going to be like a toaster, an intelligent toaster that just serves.

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  Such a negative perspective on it.

• 2:02:00Lex Fridman?

  On immortality?

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, just think, well, now you just, you can get all those things done that you want to do.

• 2:02:05Lex Fridman?

  I hope you're right. I hope you're right.

• 2:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, potentially you could invest even harder because you're like, wow, I'm actually gonna be able to get all this stuff done.

• 2:02:14Lex Fridman?

  I, I think about this a lot. I hope you're right, but I, I fear that the drive to create, I can even do more, all of that dissipates, disappears if you have all the time in the world. I just know how lazy I am. And if I have all the time in the world, I'm just gonna sit there and just like watch the stupidest YouTube videos for the rest of all eternity.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Now eternity is a long time.

• 2:02:43Lex Fridman?

  Eat Doritos, Cheetos, and just get fatter and fatter. I can get in shape later. There's always time.

• 2:02:50Speaker 01

  That's like a long period of contemplation.

• 2:02:53Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So for the first thousand years, it'll be the Dorito period of the Lex life.

• 2:02:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. You could be like Jabba the Hutt for a thousand years.

• 2:03:03Lex Fridman?

  You mentioned aliens, very important topic. Do you actually think about about this? There's been an increased interest. There's been increased UFO sightings and encounters, all that kind of stuff. The US government at least releasing data, release, releasing videos of pilots, pilot observations and from airplanes of UFOs. Do you think about this kind of stuff? Because you met, you mentioned in the following context, you mentioned like, our humans will get our shit together when the aliens eventually come.

• 2:03:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:39Lex Fridman?

  What do you make of all the sightings? Is that something you think about?

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  I thought about it a lot when I was younger. And I've just, I made my conclusions and yeah, I, I don't think that there's a possibility that there aren't aliens. I would think there would be impossible for there not to be aliens. They're, you know, you know, I feel like this is pretty good real estate. So, you know, you'd probably want it, but we already might be, well, I don't even think might. I mean, it's probably quite likely that we are to some degree aliens. I mean, all life is probably to some degree alien.

• 2:04:13Lex Fridman?

  I like the real estate, so the resources, but we're also kind of interesting.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:18Lex Fridman?

  Whatever this ant colony of living organisms that we've created, it's kind of interesting to study. I tend to believe that the alien civilizations that are going to reach us or have reached us are far more intelligent, just orders of magnitude more intelligent than us. And so it's going to be very difficult, both ways, actually, for us to understand them and for them to dumb themselves down enough to understand us.

• 2:04:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably.

• 2:04:45Lex Fridman?

  So they might even just miss our existence altogether, just because, because I tend to believe, I don't know what you think, that we're not that special in terms of all the life forms in the universe. There's a lot of cool stuff out there and.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  Has to be. Has to be.

• 2:05:03Lex Fridman?

  But to us, we're special.

• 2:05:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's all that matters, right?

• 2:05:07Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Even the human species is the most special to us humans. There could be much more special species here on Earth. They were just totally oblivious to like trees on a scale of thousands of years. Maybe they're like, they're on to something.

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  Lex, you know,

• 2:05:26Speaker 01

  I think that so much of what makes a person special is what they pass on. Your kids, but, but I think that you are quite special because you're part of this thing that's potentially giving birth to the next thing.

• 2:05:44Lex Fridman?

  The robots.

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  The robots.

• 2:05:46Lex Fridman?

  I should say, the funny thing is, while talking to Devon during this podcast, I, I would door, doorbell ring, had to go downstairs and there was a big box,

• 2:05:58Lex Fridman?

  medicine box with a new legged robot. So, um, the hilarity of you saying that is, because that, that, that robot is actually going to likely be the main robot that I show to the, to the world in, in the coming months, because that has the, that's the highest compute level in that robot. So I've, I've been playing a lot with legged robots, the, um, four legs, like a, like a dog.

• 2:06:25Lex Fridman?

  I like, I like all of robots, but there's something about when a robot has legs, it's able to communicate, it's able to connect with humans in some kind of deep way, in the way a dog can, to show affection, something about like step, step, step, step. And then, and then the robot realizes you're here and then it steps and then notices you in the way the dog does and raises its head. It makes me feel noticed and heard in the same way I do when a dog notices me. That excitement, that stupid excitement of like,

• 2:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:59Lex Fridman?

  Yes, uh, fellow living organism. And what excites me about legged robots is that holy shit, it's possible to engineer this, it's possible to create that feeling. And I wonder where that can go. There's a lot of negative possible trajectories, uh, but I have a sense that there's positive ones too.

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  You, you think that they'll take us with them?

• 2:07:24Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I think so because I I so there's this fear of robots that they become super intelligent and run away from us humans and basically become so intelligent and then they almost just not giving a damn will destroy us. But I think in order for for robots to become intelligent, they have to integrate themselves with society. So they they by the very nature of how they become intelligent have to bring us along. So it's not that there'll be this separate thing. They have to like we'll have robots in the home. Well, they'll be interacting with us. You have human kids and you have a bunch of robots. You have robot friends.

• 2:08:08Lex Fridman?

  You have human friends and they the robots make your human to human relationships much more meaningful and richer. They bring more love to the world, but they it's integrated. It's not like they'll be developing smarter smarter as like sentient beings by themselves. I think that's very difficult to do. You have to be doing that together with humans. And so we'll come for the ride. There's technical things like we might merge like cyborgs more and more.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  Well, we already saw our cyborgs, right?

• 2:08:40Lex Fridman?

  With the phones and so on, but more and more. So with Elon and Neuralink, deeper integration of robots and AI into like increasing the bandwidth at which they can communicate.

• 2:08:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:08:53Lex Fridman?

  So if we do implants in the brain,

• 2:08:57Lex Fridman?

  I think, again, a lot of people are really nervous about this, as am I. But I think there's a lot of trajectories that are positive there. And that to me is exciting. And also, I just don't think it's possible to stop this development. So we should steer it.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:16Lex Fridman?

  For good.

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  Did you I mean, you must have watched the movie Terminator, right?

• 2:09:20Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, of course. I love Terminator.

• 2:09:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:22Lex Fridman?

  I love Schwarzenegger.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  My favorite movie of all time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's the big fear, right?

• 2:09:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, what's the conclusion with Terminator? Isn't ultimately humanity wins?

• 2:09:36Speaker 01

  I think they're at like Terminator eight now.

• 2:09:38Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:39Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:09:41Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, the so there and it's interesting. Actually, I was gonna bring this up as you were talking about it. But but China and the United States actually don't know where Canada is on this. But they both have agreed that they're not going to put limits on autonomous weapon.

• 2:10:00Lex Fridman?

  System development.

• 2:10:01Speaker 01

  They're not going to.

• 2:10:02Lex Fridman?

  They're not going to. So because China said, we're not going to. And now US officially announced that. We're not, we can't.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  Well, you can't. It's like, it's you never could, right? As soon as it exists and it's better. People will use it.

• 2:10:17Lex Fridman?

  Well, but you.

• 2:10:20Lex Fridman?

  There's been a global ban on bioweapons. So you were able to come to an agreement there that we're not going to use biological weapons in war. So it was is a lot of people are really upset that in the case of. AI driven weapons, the world said, nope, that's okay. And so now you have this. Potential for greater and greater automation and drones, for example, and picking bombing locations. And so the area at which they attack. And so you get some of that stuff that you mentioned that. That drew you. To the military.

• 2:10:59Lex Fridman?

  Is that teamwork between humans, that decision making. So there's strategy, but built into that team. Is a deep humanity like.

• 2:11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:11Lex Fridman?

  Even when there's an enemy, there's lines that you are aware of, of what is ethical, what is not, what is just and what is not. And it's so easy for a machine. To. To miss all of that, plow through it and do deeply inhumane acts, commit atrocities that that's something that. Worries a lot of people.

• 2:11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:38Lex Fridman?

  Cause yeah, an AI based war is just, is terrifying. Especially with cybersecurity, which is becoming more and more of an issue, which is hacking.

• 2:11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:48Lex Fridman?

  Sort of people that look a lot like me being the warriors of the future.

• 2:11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:56Lex Fridman?

  Which is meaning people behind a keyboard versus.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:02Lex Fridman?

  Versus the traditional warriors.

• 2:12:05Speaker 01

  Probably inevitable.

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:09Lex Fridman?

  And terrifying.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  It is, it is, but I think if you believe that it's possible, it's certainly going to happen. Like at some point, it's just when, right? When does it happen?

• 2:12:21Lex Fridman?

  So that, I mean, to me, I'm ultimately optimistic about the future. And to me, I'm excited about the world with AI. I'm even excited about the metaverse and all these kinds of things. We're living more and more in the digital space in the virtual reality. I think, so it's a part of me that grew up in the non-internet world, non-computer world. You know, it says, oh, kids these days with their video games, you know, there's part of me that's like that. But I think what's, when technology at its best can bring out the best of humanity. And so I think virtual reality, all of these things over time will figure out how to, how to fix it to bring out the humanity.

• 2:13:05Lex Fridman?

  Social networks, the first generation social networks, now Facebook, Twitter and so on. They have so many problems. They're bringing out the worst in people. But I think we're learning from that. And I think the next generation of social networks will be better and better and better. And so I'm optimistic, but of course, you know, one reason we may have not seen aliens yet, obviously, like in a way that's obvious, is because once you get clever and smart and have all this cool technology, you destroy yourself. And we sure as humans are pretty close to that.

• 2:13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, there might be that limit that is hard to get right.

• 2:13:43Lex Fridman?

  I'm hoping we get all our aggression between nations out through arm wrestling.

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  Competition, right?

• 2:13:50Lex Fridman?

  Just all of that.

• 2:13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh my God, wouldn't that be great if that was if it was that simple? Yeah.

• 2:13:56Lex Fridman?

  Do you know if there's another over the top type movie to be made?

• 2:13:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, there's always stuff in the works. There's actually a there's a there's a tournament called over the top in Australia. That's a couple of months away. I think they're doing all the over top scene, but there are arm wrestling movies that are being made right now. Actually, I'm there's a documentary that's filming me for this whole Avon thing. But, uh, yeah, we're probably due for another big one. Yeah.

• 2:14:20Lex Fridman?

  But you're also just with your YouTube channel, you're doing a lot for the sport. That's really cool to see, just being genuine, but just being like, uh, looking not like you're looking today, but just like.

• 2:14:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:32Lex Fridman?

  The beard.

• 2:14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:33Lex Fridman?

  Just like sleepy, you know, and just putting yourself out there completely as you are. That's a beautiful thing.

• 2:14:41Speaker 01

  The best thing about the sport is it brings people together. That's it.

• 2:14:44Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, the community, the the folks I got to interact with just so awesome, so excited, so full of kindness. I'm definitely going to find the club here and, uh, and start working on my,

• 2:14:57Lex Fridman?

  on my arm wrestling game. Devon, this is such a huge honor that you would, uh, spend your valuable time, you would come down to Austin, you would, um, hang out with me and do this conversation.

• 2:15:11Speaker 01

  Super cool, talk to Lex, yeah.

• 2:15:13Lex Fridman?

  As I mentioned, uh, in case people, you know, people I'm sure will tell me. So I hang out with Joe Rogan all the time. He's a friend. I told him that he should talk to Devon. He's going through some stuff currently, you know, uh, but I'm sure that I hope the conversation between you, Devon, and Joe happens eventually. He's, uh, that would be epic as well because he's a.

• 2:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, he loves fighting.

• 2:15:36Lex Fridman?

  He loves fighting, he loves wrestling, he loves strength. And I think all of those are, um, like so perfectly encapsulated in the sport of arm wrestling. So thank you so much for talking to me.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  Thanks so much, Lex.

• 2:15:51Lex Fridman?

  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Devon Larrett. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Miyamoto Musashi. "The only reason a warrior is alive is to fight. And the only reason a warrior fights is to win." Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.