E39: Jamal Edwards - From Media Student To Multimillionaire

At 15, Jamal Edwards rapped under the name "SmokeyBarz", filming with his friends from a £20 phone. At 24, he had received an MBE for services to music and business, taken the first royal selfie and was a multimillionaire. The entrepreneur turned music ... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Steven Bartlett?

  Jamal Edwards, MBU. The normal guy working in Topshop that became an amateur filmmaker and turned into a multimillionaire. Starting out, Jamal was one of the youngest, successful, black entrepreneurs in the UK. And when I started my business, he was someone that I admired and looked up to tremendously. I remember stalking him online. And one day, when he did a Skype group chat, I asked him a question, and that meant the world to me. Well, today, I get to ask him a few more. Jamal was born in Leighton, and at the age of 15, he wrapped with his friends under the name Smokey Bars on a £20 camera phone. His first video was simple, just him filming foxes on his local estate.

• 0:49Steven Bartlett?

  These videos would eventually become his business and the beginning of the brand which we all know called SBTV. In 2006, Jamal launched SBTV, the first new media business on YouTube, getting a fanbase of over 1 million subscribers and over 600 million views in a very short amount of time. SBTV has launched the careers of many, many people in the music industry, including one guy which we all know called Ed Sheeran. Voted number 2 in the Guardian's Top 30 Young People in Digital Media, he was also named in the Forbes 30 Under 30 list in European Media and one of GQ's 100 Most Connected Men of all time. I met him in his office in London, and we discussed everything.

• 1:31Steven Bartlett?

  From the barriers you face being a young entrepreneur, to race, to age, to mental health. We talked about family, and we talked about his mum getting cancer at a pivotal moment within his business. We talk about everything. And I'm so unbelievably excited to share this conversation with you today because Jamal, for a long time, has been one of my great, great personal idols. Someone I can relate to more than any young entrepreneur out there. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 2:13Steven Bartlett?

  Jamal, I don't really know where to start. There's so much that I have to ask you. If I take it back in my sort of journey, when I was 18 years old and I was in Manchester, a young kid with big dreams, you were the face that I always saw. And I think because I'm a, you know, young black guy that didn't come from a very good upbringing, I didn't have many case studies in my life of successful young black men to look to as a, I guess, a proof case that it was possible for me. But you were one of those people, and I think you've always set a real sort of shining example for me as an entrepreneur, as I've progressed in my career. So first and foremost, I think I just wanted to say thank you.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  No, my guy.

• 2:52Steven Bartlett?

  No, for real.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  You're smashing it as well, bro.

• 2:55Steven Bartlett?

  I'm not a bullshitter, but like genuinely, genuinely, and you probably won't know this, but there was one day when you were doing these Skype interviews and you were allowing people that followed you to speak to you on Skype. And I asked you a question and you responded on Skype. And I thought that was crazy, crazy, crazy.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  I remember those days.

• 3:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And that was probably, I don't know, seven, eight years, seven years ago, something crazy. But I guess where I want to start is at the start of your journey. What were you like in school?

• 3:19Speaker 01

  I think the, I think one of the things that I just, my attention span, there were some things I did enjoy. I enjoyed like more the physical stuff, more like ICT, stuff like that. But I actually didn't take media or business in school from primary school or high school, which was quite funny. I now got into media and business, but I was very, I just had a very short attention span. And that led to sort of like behaviour, behaviour problems. I remember like in year nine, like I got put to like a psychiatrist because there was like, why, what, what, what's like, what's going on? I think I still got a report at home. I don't know why they did that. I only went for like a couple of sessions. They wanted to see, just ask me questions and find out a bit more about my life. But yeah, it was

• 4:03Speaker 01

  just, I have a very short attention span.

• 4:06Steven Bartlett?

  And what did the psychiatrist find out? What was their conclusion?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  I don't know. Like, it's just, I needed to be stimulated more. I'm just not engaged with.

• 4:16Steven Bartlett?

  Things that you're not interested in.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which caused to me being like a bit of a class clown or whatever.

• 4:23Steven Bartlett?

  Did you get good grades?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  I got all right grades. I didn't get the grades I wanted to get into first year at college. So I did a national, I did a B tech national diploma in media moving image. But I had to do a whole nother year because I think I missed one grade because I needed like four or like five, no, or like six, eight to Cs. Um. So I had to do a whole nother year. I did the first diploma for a year. And then I did the national diploma, which was two years. So I ended up doing that three years at college. So all my mates that went, went straight to two year course, I had to do a first year, first year course, which was a bit of like a, I like a eye opener. That should have focused a little bit more in school, but um, yeah.

• 5:02Steven Bartlett?

  I've, I've, um, I've, I've read and watched a lot about you over the years as you've, you've gone on your journey. I've never heard you talk a huge amount about what your home life was like as a kid. I know you grew up in London and um, I know you're incredibly close to your mum. Is there any context of your home life that has shaped who you are today or shaped the stuff you've described in school and the poor behaviour? Is there anything there that's sort of pertinent or interesting or connected? Or even anything from your sort of home life or, you know, your preschool years that were, uh, inspired you to be a little bit more sort of independent and I guess carefree. I guess much of the reason I ask that question is because I try and look for patterns in, in, in people.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:41Steven Bartlett?

  And my parents, my parents weren't really around. So I, when I'd wake up every day, they're already, they're already gone. And then when um, I came home from school and fell asleep, they weren't there, they weren't back from work yet. My mum would just sleep at her job.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:53Steven Bartlett?

  Um. So I had this sort of sense of if I was going to have anything in life, it was going to come from something that I did.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Um. So my mum's parents died in a car crash when she was four. So like that, like my mum and my uncle had to stay with my aunties. And it was very strict, like so strict. And like my mum has then made it very strict for me, like very strict, like not allowed out. Like I wasn't even allowed out until I was like, I don't know what age, I think it was like, just as I was turning a teenager. But I remember always coming home and I always remember them films, you know, like Jack, Robin Williams where. Like, he's like a big kid and then he goes home and all the kids on the area, I wonder who is he like? Yeah, you saw him, did you see him? I was like, like, have similarities to that, cause I was like, everyone knew I was there, but I wasn't allowed that, like, what does he do?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Like, that had a little bit of an effect on like, how I can experience like, just life outside of um, being in my, my parents' house.

• 6:54Steven Bartlett?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  My mum, uh, is married to, uh, my stepdad, I don't know my real dad.

• 7:01Steven Bartlett?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Um, so he, he, he's been very supportive in my life from the early days of like, when I wanted to get certain cameras, certain equipment. But yeah, I think I had a strict upbringing, which made me be much more of a, like, sort of a rebel when I was allowed to be free. Cause I was like, I'm free now, I can just, yeah, live a bit.

• 7:19Steven Bartlett?

  Again, from watching your journey as an eighteen year old kid, sat in Moss Side in Manchester, um, watching YouTube and reading articles and things like that. I got to see one, I guess, one dimension of being a successful young entrepreneur.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:33Steven Bartlett?

  But there's this other dimension, which I think, especially at that time, nobody really talks about. And I think, no, you, it's probably quite hard for you to articulate the true nature of being a young, successful entrepreneur that had a lot of spotlight and a lot of people talking and really on this wave of sort of YouTube, um, uh, when I was, when I was watching you in a day. So I guess my question is, what are the things about being a young entrepreneur? When you came up, where you came up, that people just don't appreciate or just don't realise?

• 8:01Speaker 01

  I don't know, I think it's just living your life in a public, like, like, and I'm all for making mistakes. Like, and for people to learn from them and, and myself learn from them. But I think it was a lot of pressure of making sure you're like, like, the way you dress, like, all that sort of stuff. And it was only to a certain point where people didn't know who I was, it was only my local, the local people that knew who I was. The Google Chrome advert then took me to another, like, level in terms of, like, publicity.

• 8:28Steven Bartlett?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Which I was, I think, like, about nineteen.

• 8:31Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 8:31Speaker 01

  I was just like, whoa, just mad, like, people coming up to me, taking pictures, people staring at me, I was like, what is staring at me for? I'll just get mad anxious, I was like, shit, what? And I was like, and then, like, some people, like, it got to the point of, like, where people take pictures and that, and I'd be like, why, why are you taking a picture? And I didn't understand, and then I'd be like, what's my name? Like, can I just think of what, like, do you think I'm mistaken, or do you, like, is it something else? But most of the time, like, all the time, people say, oh, Jamal, come on, man, like, S B T V, da, da, da, da, and then I'm like, yeah, cool. But then also, like, my mum being on X Factor as well, like, I used to see it with her, so she didn't win, but she got, like, fourth place in, like, I think it was, like, second or third series,

• 9:13Speaker 01

  which is the year that Shane Wood won it. But I remember going, like, shopping and people coming up to her and asking pictures and all that sort of stuff. So I used to see that and I never used to think that would be for me, never. I was always Brendon from X Factor's son. And then it, like, switched, it was like Jamal from S B T V's mum. And I was just like, it's mad.

• 9:29Steven Bartlett?

  How, how did you, how did that feel? People come up and ask me for photos and stuff and?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  I just didn't understand it at first. And then I sort of got a bit used to it. But at first, I was just a bit like, whoa.

• 9:38Steven Bartlett?

  And where, where, where, where are you at with it now?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I'm cool. Like, I'm cool. I always get, like, people, they'll just literally stare at my face, I'll be like, you're right. And then I'm like, ah, you know what I'm saying? So I, I know how to deal with it now. But at first, when I was a little bit younger, I just didn't know how to deal with it, because I didn't understand.

• 9:53Steven Bartlett?

  So that's the, like, publicity fame side of, um, being in the spotlight. What about the business side in terms of you were, you were at the centre of this, like, super fast growing media platform and you were, like, really an early mover in that space. I imagine you get brands swarming on you and there's team members and there's this sort of expectation that you have to be like the C E O and the founder and know what, you know, all of the right moves to make. What's that like? At a young age, you've got to pay people as well.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I was like the youngest boss, if you could say that. Everyone that I employed was older than me. And it was very daunting for me to be telling people, oh, yeah, do it like this, do it like this. I used to let people sway my decisions because I was like, I've always been taught to respect your elders. So like, if they, if I say, let's do a video like this, some of them are older than me, but I think it's like this, I'm like, yeah, probably, you know, but I've got more experience, but or like more years on your age. But I had to learn to like, sort of take that back and actually do what I wanted to do. But in the early, early days, it was very daunting. Like, I would never tell people, like, oh, yeah, can you do this? Because I'd be like, oh, they're just way older than me, no one listens to me. I'm like, like,

• 11:03Speaker 01

  I'm a kid to them, do you know what I'm saying? And I think I had to overcome that, like, fear of, of just. People saying, but you're this age, like, what are you doing? Well, you can't tell me to do that. I know I say that. And it's not saying that like, that people that work for me was like that, but that was just programmed in my head. Like, I used to tell myself that over and over again. That was definitely like a something I had to overcome.

• 11:27Steven Bartlett?

  Cause there's like a lot of kids out there that that will be thinking, they might be nineteen years old, twenty years old, whatever. Um, they'll be thinking, I think I'm too young to start anything or do anything.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Um.

• 11:38Steven Bartlett?

  What would you say from your experience um to those kids?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  The now, especially you can start business at whatever age. I did pocket money pitch.

• 11:46Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  And kids like eleven years old was pitching me a forecast. I was like, what? This is crazy. So I feel like the age now has been lowered. I think like when we were in school, entrepreneurship and business wasn't really like cosigned as much as it is now.

• 12:01Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  And then seeing people like myself, people like you, other people, like breaking down the barriers and like, you know what? Actually, enterprise can be done, like at whatever age it is.

• 12:10Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter what background you're from, cause like people are actually making it happen.

• 12:14Steven Bartlett?

  And so you've got, you've got, you know, that Google advert was massive at the time. Actually, I feel like I remember where I was when I saw it.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like the first ad break of X Factor that year.

• 12:22Steven Bartlett?

  Crazy.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  I know. I was like sweating, like literally sweating. I was like, oh, good.

• 12:27Steven Bartlett?

  Crazy.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Like I got, I got the list of like where it was going, like it was on Sky Sports.

• 12:31Steven Bartlett?

  Really? They gave you a list?

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, they gave me a list of every like, it was huge. And um, yeah, like it was like Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber was like my counterparts. And I was like, I was the one in the UK. And I think the reason why it did well is cause like a lot of people related to the story, but um, it was a surreal moment. It was a surreal moment, like, it was a surreal moment.

• 12:53Steven Bartlett?

  And there's that on one end, which is like the, the like the celebration and those like key moments, which I think all business people e- encounter.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Um.

• 13:01Steven Bartlett?

  What are the, the, the hard parts that people don't talk about? The stuff where, you know, people will follow you on Instagram, they'll see, oh, he's got an M B E, he's like, he's done this Google, Google advert, he's got all of these amazing honours. You're, you, you, I saw you on a Primark poster the other day.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:18Steven Bartlett?

  But what are the bits that um people don't put on Instagram?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  I have my moments, innit? So I'll be like. Some days I'm just like, oh, can't be arsed, like, no, you can't be arsed, it's just like, I don't know what it is, you just feel like demotivated a bit, I don't know where where it comes from, like, and like, I think one of the things you can see that is if I don't post, I don't post social media, I go disappear for a bit, that's when I'm just like, ah, I just need me time sort of thing. Cause it's like, it is, it is a job in itself to keep up the, the um positive messages.

• 13:56Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Like, I do quite often post stuff, like, like, if it's not going well, I do try and do that as well, as much as I post the positive stuff, cause I just want people to know the realism is just not all like up. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, there are some times when I have like down times and where I'm just like, I just wanna be left alone. Um, and I think that's so important, and I always try and push those messages as much as I put like positive messages up as well. And I think it has a positive effect of showing the real of what's what goes on day to day instead of it.

• 14:27Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, cause without you saying that, as a like an eighteen year old kid watching you, I just think um Jamal's always on point, he's always a hundred percent motivated, and this is.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm not, though, and it's like.

• 14:39Steven Bartlett?

  And the risk there is, if I have a bad day and I'm someone that admires you, I think there's something wrong with me. But in fact, I think what you've described is.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  People need, yeah, like, you just feel like, oh, do you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know if I wanna do this or do that. Um, and that, that I try, like, that happens every now and then, it does.

• 14:59Steven Bartlett?

  Question, does that happen more now than it did at the start of your journey?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yes, because I'm much more known, so I feel like I've got something to live up to. Like, more than, back in the day, it was just me and my mates, like, and I feel like when I was a little bit younger, you were a bit more nimble, like, I'm getting older now, so it's like, the mistakes you make is like, you've been doing this for how long now? You still make mistakes, but not as many mistakes as you make as when you're like younger. Um, so I feel like, yeah, it is a bit. More pressure now, um but I don't mind if it if something did bad happen, I I would say it. Like I would put it online and I just got to learn from it, innit.

• 15:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I think you've I think of all the entrepreneurs that I know and that I follow, you've um you've definitely been a real advocate of the truth. And showing the behind the scenes that I think other people wouldn't have the honestly, the strength and the the self selflessness to show because there's not really enough, there's not a huge upside in showing vulnerability all the time.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:01Steven Bartlett?

  But it's more something that you I think you've done for other people, like the, you know, you did the documentary about mental health in the music industry. And those kinds of things. In business, bad news is inevitable.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 16:12Steven Bartlett?

  But people don't talk about it and no no one shares that part as much, right? We all post the fucking the awards we get certificates, whatever else.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, because there are brands that, for example, if you're like to go real simple, um if you're pitching for work and you don't get it, that's like, I think, one of the things that happens all the time and necessarily don't talk about that. And I feel like I haven't necessarily talked about that a lot where we'll go into it. Um but I guess that's an ongoing conversation because then you just re-pitch again instead of it being like, oh, we didn't win this brand. Brand works, you want to say the brand, but I think that happens a lot. Um and I think people need to know that happens a lot. You don't just win every single pitch. Like, I don't know any business that wins every single pitch. You always have like, except for man like Steve Bartlett.

• 16:58Steven Bartlett?

  No, I don't win everything.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  No, I'm joking, I'm joking.

• 17:01Steven Bartlett?

  We win them, but then we sometimes we lose them, we fuck up.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  I know, exactly.

• 17:04Steven Bartlett?

  A typo can fuck the whole thing up.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying, it happens, it happens to me, it happens to you. Like, and I think that's important to know, like, some people might not get their first business for years. Like, you you've just got to keep on going. And I think that's one of the the things I always try and push is that self-belief, keep on going. Um because there were times when I couldn't get certain artists. Even today, I might not be able to get certain artists or certain brand work that I wanna try and do and we don't win the pitch. But we've just got to keep on going.

• 17:31Steven Bartlett?

  And how do you deal with, how, what's your sort of coping mechanism with dealing with bad news as a young entrepreneur? And how's it changed over time?

• 17:39Speaker 01

  I think um now it's much more organised instead of it being like.

• 17:43Steven Bartlett?

  Emotional.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, cool, it didn't happen, let's keep moving forward. Like whether that's investment or brand work or working with an artist. And yeah, it's just about trying to keep that that positive mental attitude. I think back in the day, I was a lot more like, oh, this is all going. Like this is gonna flop, like I'm done, like and I would disappear for like a few days. Like no one would be able to get through to me because I'd be so angry that didn't get something. And I think that was just from dealing with business from young and not knowing how to deal with it and knowing that you've actually got a team with you. Um I had to learn how to do that and delegate because I always used to be very like, it was all, I want to do everything, I want to do everything and.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  And I had to get out of that mindset because it was killing my like mindset, it was also my health was deteriorating. It was very, to, to, to delegate was like one of the big things that I needed to learn.

• 18:39Steven Bartlett?

  They, they say that when something becomes a job or it becomes like monotonous or like this, the same every day. And also when you get paid to do it, you lose the creative motivation to do it.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Um hum. That's why you've always got to have oomph moments. Like I class them as oomph moments, like moments in my career where it just gives me a new oomph for like a period of time. So like, for example, the most, most recent one was I did a, a, a fashion week party at Soho House, Greek Street.

• 19:07Steven Bartlett?

  I saw it.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Like that was an oomph moment and it was like we were saying in the group, like, oh yeah, let's do one for Halloween or let's do another one for Christmas or whatever. But it was like, no, let that marinate, let that just like, you know what I'm saying, let it season, you know when you put the season in the food? Just got to let it get the juices, you know what I'm saying? Like we're, and we need to, like when we're, um. As well as we're, our losses and our wins, we need to let it sink in. Because like if you lose, like, yes, just dust yourself back up and get back up again. But you just need to realise what, how did you lose and how can you like not make that same mistake again? The same thing for your wins, like let it get out there and then move on to the next thing. And I think like. Over the years, I've always had to have these oomph moments. I did a talk about creating and curation.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  I was a creator at first and then I ended up being a curator. And I think one of the like oomph moments was like when I did the social media hub, the first ever social media hub at Buckingham Palace, where I took a selfie with Prince Harry and Prince William. And I think it was from like one of that moment, I was like oomph, like that lasted for like months. And it's like when we're working, you've always got to think of these moments. Like, and I always try to say if I have four moments in a year, cool, that's good, a moment each quarter. And then I can have like little moments in between that, but it's just reminding people I'm still here. Like, cause I'm like ten plus years in the game now. It's like you always just got to have them sort of moments.

• 20:32Steven Bartlett?

  Ten plus years in the game. You know, you started SB a long, long time ago. I must have been, you know, about sixteen, seventeen when you, when you started, uh, when you, you got into the game. Um, how has your sort of love for what you do changed over time? You talked a little bit there about oomph moments, but I'm like, the, the reason I ask this question, I think, cause I'm like maybe five, five years into my business technically. You could call it six or seven before we really got going, but, but five years into my business. Um, and I still, um, ask myself this question a lot about how, how much I love it every day and how passionate I am to come to work in. Um, if there is ever a day where I come in and I don't have the, the drive, I start asking myself all these questions as to where it's gone.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:16Steven Bartlett?

  Um, so like ten years into SB, how, how are you feeling about the brand today?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Um, I feel like I could be doing a lot more if I'm honest. Cards on the table.

• 21:24Steven Bartlett?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Um, but my, again, like just from when I was a kid, my mind is like that. I'm involved in so much different stuff. It's like I need to focus on it a little bit more. Um. Like the music scene right now, killing it. And even not just, just the scene in general, like I was with Maya Jam on the other day. And like she's smashing the game. I was with like the showboys, they're smashing the game. I was with like different camps and units all over, up and down the UK. It just feels like a real moment. Um. So I feel like I could be doing, with SB I could be doing a lot more and like twenty twenty vision, I'm gonna be doing a lot more. I have so many plans with like big institutions that I'm working on at the moment behind the scenes.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  One with British Library, so I'm like talking to like big brands and these are oomph moments that will, I could do just that and that will last a few months. I'll do that again last a few months or a couple of months, whatever, and I'll just carry on from doing like that. I feel like I'll be doing a lot more, like when I go out in the streets, people are like, why are you doing this no more, where's the? Like I wanna build my F sixty fours, I do more A sixty fours, but people got to realise, I was making content for so long. And um like the community stuff just took over my life a little bit and I really got stuck in with setting up the youth centres and working on that behind the scenes. Um so yeah, I think, yeah, but yeah, in terms of SB, I could be doing a lot more.

• 22:44Steven Bartlett?

  On that sentence that I could be doing a lot more, one of the, one of the things that I think makes a lot of people that message me, put a lot of pressure on themselves. Is that sentence, is that constant feeling, I have the same feeling, right? I always think, fuck, you should be doing more, you should be further, you should be doing better.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:00Steven Bartlett?

  Um a- and even, you know, even like an eighteen year old kid that's just starting out, they're, they're looking up at you, they're looking up at like other people and they're thinking, oh, I, like, I should be doing a lot more. And I think we're all in a world where we're all think, sat here thinking, I should be doing a lot more. How do you deal with that pressure and does it feel like pressure, does it make you feel anxious?

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, like, I think it reaffirms it when I see people and they tell me, why aren't you doing this? And I'm like, why aren't I doing this, do you know what I'm saying? And it's like, you could tell yourself again and again, why aren't you doing something, but when someone else tells it to you, then it's like, that's the consumer. Their, their, what, their voice matters, cause you have it already in your brain, but someone just unlocks it. I always say people have, people have where it is, what, what it is they wanna do inside them. Like I unlocked it when I was fifteen, like, like someone's nan could unlock it when I was eighty, she started up a ni- knitting business. And it's like, but everyone has that passion inside them, it's just something that triggers it or something that you find where, oh, I could do that and, and then you go and run with it. So I feel like.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like there inside you and someone just unlocks it and then that's what it's like. You know what, I could be doing more.

• 24:06Steven Bartlett?

  Do you procrastinate?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Oh, I am the biggest procrastinator.

• 24:10Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 24:10Speaker 01

  I am so bad. I don't know if people know that, but I am the biggest procrastinator in all time. I actually think I'd be top three, top ten, top, top three. It's so bad. I don't know how, it's like one of the biggest things, like, I don't really talk about it, but I, it's bad. There'll be certain things, like certain videos that are still not out from years ago. Like, it's like I'm a gerbil, like a hamster. I just keep everything stored, like, and it's really bad. That's a clutter, like, in my brain. But like, there's projects I've been like on the table for ages, like big projects. And it's just because like, I'm just like, uh, yeah, oh, and that, ooh.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  So that's it. If you know that me, then you know that me.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  In your mind, what is procrastination?

• 25:00Steven Bartlett?

  For me, procrastination is getting to the point where you've thought about something so much that you've almost talked yourself out of immediate action.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:08Steven Bartlett?

  And like in a, in a, in a way, so you think, you might think to yourself, I've got that essay to do in school. Um, I really fucking don't wanna do it. And there's that question which I don't know how to answer. And oh god, I have got some time and da, da, da, da. And you talk yourself so much out, you find yourself fucking like, you know, like kicking the ball at a fucking wall instead.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you go and find other things to do, which doesn't have anything to do with that.

• 25:28Steven Bartlett?

  Uh, when the, the task at hand, the thing that you're avoiding, there tends to be a psychological, often bullshit barrier as to why you're not confronting it. So it might be, oh, you don't know the answer to question three. It might be that, um, you, you fucking hate it. Like, it could be, it might be that you're like scared of failing. A lot of people procrastinate from doing things because they think they'll fa- they'll, they'll fail.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's like me and talking. I can't. Do keynotes.

• 25:54Steven Bartlett?

  I think this is something that will surprise something.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  I can't do keynotes. It's just like my fear. Like, I just think of like getting clammy hands thinking about it now. But like, there's been so, like, whether it's like not paid or like big paid jobs. I've had to turn them down, like, because I can't get over that going on stage for fifteen minutes and just talking.

• 26:16Steven Bartlett?

  I've got a little game for you, Jamal, here. So I'm an eighteen year old kid and I come to you, Jamal, and I say, Jamal, I respect you and admire you so much. Um, I've got a problem now. I can't do keynotes.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Oh, allow me, bro. I say go look at Steve Bartlett. He's the donut edge, you know what I'm saying?

• 26:31Steven Bartlett?

  No, what would you say to me, though? Genuine question. What are you talking about?

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Go look at Steve Bartlett's videos. Are you mad?

• 26:37Steven Bartlett?

  No, no, but surely it's the same principles as like as everything else you've done in overcoming your life. It's the same set of like.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  I don't know, but I'm like so comfortable with not doing it, like, and I feel like I've built that barrier in my head. Like, my my agents are like, Jamal, do media training, we get public speaking courses, they do all the top speakers in the game, Sarah Ken Robinson, that all. And I was like, I just can't. I just can't. Maybe one day I'll get over it, but at this moment in time, I've managed. And I always, and this is what I'm saying, I've managed to, I feel like, what if I've managed to get to where I am today without doing it? Like, but then I think, imagine if I did do it, like, I could be just doing, do you know what I'm saying? It's just nuts. Like, how I've not, that barrier in my brain won't allow me to do it. And I've done a, I've done a TEDx talk, which I said,

• 27:24Speaker 01

  the future prime minister will come from YouTube. And it went all right, but like, there could have been, I think, like, after that, I closed myself off again. Like, I should have taken that, learned on how I can improve, because basically it was like, um, it was like, I just wanted to finish it. And anything I wanted to finish, I rushed. Like, I did, uh, uh, the Hermes catwalk, like, I first got catwalk, I couldn't believe I did it, yeah. And like, literally, I walked on and I walked so fast to get off the catwalk. So I was just like, you know what I'm saying? It's like the same thing with talking. I was talking so fast. I wasn't letting the words marinate. People are gonna know this word, marinate. Marinate is that can be applied to all aspects of life, trust me. Um, but yeah.

• 28:06Steven Bartlett?

  What are you scared of?

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Talking. Keynotes. I think failure and I think like having people not care about you anymore. At the end of the day, the audience is the most important thing. The reason why we're doing this is like we've got an audience, we've got like followers, we've got people that look up to us, we've got people that. And I feel like once someone, a lot of people don't care about is what you're doing, you've got to look at something else. So it's like. If people are not checking through anymore, then you don't really have a business because the consumer is like quite important to our businesses anyway. And just not being able to do the stuff that I procrastinate about a lot of times as well. So like, there's loads of projects and I think crazy stuff. I think.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Like every day is our last day, I feel. And like sometimes I go to sleep and I'm like crazy stuff. Like what happens if I'm not alive to see that? Like, I don't know what's what, why I think like that, but it's like, there's that, that and there's other stuff like. I've got a project with the V and A's or like an artist that I'm going to work with in like a month's time, two months' time. But I think what happens if I'm not going to be alive for that? I don't know.

• 29:13Steven Bartlett?

  Where does that come from?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  I don't know. I honestly don't know. I just think mad stuff like that. I'll go to sleep and I'll be like, damn. Like if I just like. But I think I've had a lot of death in my life as well, which is like sort of, I've known people that have like died in their sleep, like S S A D S, I think it's called. But it's like just your heart stops and then like I've known a few couple of people like that or. Like people that are not around no more. And it's just like.

• 29:41Steven Bartlett?

  Your mum had a battle with with cancer.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:45Steven Bartlett?

  Talked about a lot. What was that? What was that like? Because my mum, I remember when I was younger, I think I was about twelve years old. My mum came home and she said to me, there's a lump in my breast. And for the next, uh, maybe about two weeks until she had her second stage scan of it. It was like, you know, world shattering, I guess. And I must have been, I twelve, eleven, maybe even younger. Um, so when I read that you you'd been through a very similar thing and your mum had been diagnosed, my mum was, it turned out it was a cyst, which she had removed. Um. A lot of people don't understand what that what that must be like, especially when you're you've got this sort of big business that you've got to maintain and keep focus and keep up appearances over here.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Um.

• 30:27Steven Bartlett?

  But then something like that so personal and close to home happens. What's that like?

• 30:30Speaker 01

  I just removed myself from a lot of stuff. I just didn't wanna just be out out and about. And I feel like um it was definitely a moment that made me appreciate life a little bit more and providing a little bit more for um family and close ones around me. Just like open my mind a lot, like we're not on this earth forever. Like we're alive. The only thing certain is death. I don't wanna say this, I was talking about death a lot, but it's like you've got to try and do as much as you can in the time that you're given.

• 31:02Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Like, and I feel like everyone's got the twenty same twenty four hours on on on this planet. I saw that quote, like, you've got the same twenty twenty four hours as Bill Gates, Richard Branson, or whatever. Um. So it's like trying to appreciate that and trying to give it all as you can, but still maintain a healthy lifestyle, cause otherwise it will, like you'll spend like I hear people that spend twenty one hours awake, like working on it. You've just got got health is wealth as well, cause health is wealth as well, because um it's important. If you're creating a business or you wanna do something and you ain't healthy, that's gonna affect you. Like, your health is the most important thing.

• 31:42Steven Bartlett?

  One of my, um, I don't think I've ever said this before, but one of my fears is that I'll be so consumed in running my business and then one of my close family members will die. And I'll look back and regret not spending more time with them when I had the chance. And I think I don't want that moment to make me realise what actually matters.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  That happened to me.

• 32:01Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, like I've got a very big family. Like, I think about my grandparents were like like eighteen brothers and sisters, crazy. I don't know half of my family. And I was so like I would never go to gatherings, like all that sort of stuff. And it was like that. And then it came a period of time where I started wanting to go back and check my aunties and my uncles and my cousins. Cause I realised I was consumed by it. Did you get to that point?

• 32:28Steven Bartlett?

  Consumed by?

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Like your business.

• 32:30Steven Bartlett?

  Bro, it's now, like, I don't call my, like, I'd be keeping it facts, cause it's just, what's the point me lying? I call my mum, this sounds so bad, right? You're gonna, your opinion of me is gonna go in the fucking toilet.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:42Steven Bartlett?

  Once every two months. It's bad. My mum and dad live in the UK, in the southwest in Cornwall. I travel around the world. That's why my suitcase is over there. I'm going flying to New York. Just been told I'm flying to New York now. So like, and I don't like, I'm not good at, the balance is my biggest flaw. I don't have any balance. It's all work for me. And that's why I say that's one of my biggest fears is figuring out before, before it's sort of too late for them to smell the roses that I had a priorities issue. And I'm, it's almost like I'm aware of it, but I'm not, I've not done anything about it yet.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  I, I relate, like, I relate. And I believe everything happens for a reason. Like, I remember when I moved out.

• 33:19Steven Bartlett?

  Which is when your mum got diagnosed?

• 33:20Speaker 01

  No, so I moved, when I moved out, like twenty one or something like that, yeah. And then I sort of moved back to like when she, when that happened.

• 33:27Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Um, but in that period of time, I didn't, the same thing, like, I, like, I was so into it, like, like. Um, my mum and dad would message me and it would take me like time to message them back. And they'll be like, oh, you're right. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, so I, I, I resonate with that. But then also. Like, I bumped into my auntie who used to look after me when I was younger. And I thought about it, I've never had a picture with her. And I was like, what? So I sat her down. I was like, look, we're taking a picture. No, we're not, no, we're not, no, we're not. And I was like, pictures create memories, isn't it? And I was just thinking about it, like. Our family is important, but at the same time, like, people that I've, have, that I've only just met, I like, could.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Have more meaning in my life than some family members in the whole time. And that's bad. But like, cause that's because you don't see them. That's the people that you connect to, that you work with on a daily basis, do you know what I'm saying? Like, and your people in your business become your family. And that, that's just how, how life is. And I think people beat themselves up over a little bit. Um, but I do think it's important to check for the people that mean a lot to you. Definitely.

• 34:37Steven Bartlett?

  And when you, when you got that news that your mum was, she was, she was sick, um, how did that impact your ability to run your business?

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Um, fortunately, my, my people in my business was like, tomorrow, take as much time as you need.

• 34:50Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  In my head, I was like, oh my god, is she gonna die? Like, cause I was like, oh my god, like, I think she had like stage three or stage four. I was really like, really late. Like, that she got diagnosed with it. And, um. Like, I think one of the big things that I learnt from that was her positive attitude and self belief came from me. Like, just from me just being, do you know what I'm saying, going for it. And she applied that, like, very like, even though she's losing her hair, like, all that sort of stuff. Um, she applied that. She was like, I took your mindset. And I was like, I'm gonna make it through it. And she made it through it, um, which is good. Um, and now she's like killing the game on loose women. So she's doing good. She's doing good.

• 35:35Steven Bartlett?

  It's awesome. One of the, one of the things I actually spoke about in the last podcast I did was about, um, race and the topic of race. Here's, here's my kind of opinion. One of the things that I've got to be honest, um, frustrates me a little bit is when minorities, specifically black minorities, because it's the, the group that I feel like I can identify with the most, um, fall into the trap of thinking that their race will hold them back, or even in cases of like, you know, um, gender or even ageism, um, will hold them back because they are black. And as a young, successful black man like yourself, um, do you ever see that? And what's your opinion of it?

• 36:16Speaker 01

  I used to, but that's about, I used to think it's because I'm black.

• 36:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and now, like, I don't think that as much, but I still, that depends around the people that you hang around with and that you surround yourself with. Because I surround myself with so many different groups and I like to connect those groups. So like my upmarket city boys, I would connect them to like my state boys and we'd go to like Soho House, for example, and they'd all be there. And they all get on and they all like, fine, but everyone seems to make this segregation. And I like, I think back in the day, I used to have that in my head. If I never used to get anything, it's, oh, it's because I'm black, it's because I'm black. And then I built my mindset out of that, because it was gonna keep me trapped if I kept like thinking like that all the time. And I just got, um, like, I feel like

• 37:04Speaker 01

  it doesn't like, doesn't matter what, what race you are, um. It goes deep.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Obviously, the history. Like, that you can see, like, like, black history and you can learn about it, and I'm not gonna go into it. I I I know bits about it and I'm not like, I'm not gonna say I'm like a historian or whatever, but I know about like.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Oppression and all that. Um but it's like, we're in a in a new age and people can say, oh. What age or race or whatever, but it's in your mind to to be the change you wanna see in the world. That's a Gandhi quote, like, and I try and make sure that I don't let that affect how I move. Because otherwise, it's not a blame game, right? You've just got to carry on, you've got to do it.

• 37:57Steven Bartlett?

  And it's like a self fulfilling prophecy if you start to believe it, right?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you manifest, do you know what I'm saying? Why don't you manifest you're gonna do something else? Not manifest, that's because I'm black. The reason I didn't get that's because I'm black, or or it's because I'm young. Like, I remember I used to do that as well, like, because I'm young. But then I like ended up employing someone that had twenty years of experience and then me and that person combined. Got the job, you know what I'm saying? So and you've just got to think, you're in a situation, how do you take it and change it? That's to the way that it can fit you. And then build on it.

• 38:30Steven Bartlett?

  And that's what I think frustrates me about it is because I see, I see the issue, I I know discrimination is a very real thing. I think we're all just, we all have our own prejudices.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Stereotypes and all that.

• 38:44Steven Bartlett?

  But that's not something that I can really change at scale. Like, I can't change the prejudice in people.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  But you can change your mindset.

• 38:49Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, and I actually think that the prejudice or the belief that I'm being, um. I I'm at a disadvantage because of something like my skin colour that I can't change is more. Um dangerous or more conducive with me not being successful than the little bit of prejudice that John. At that brand might have towards people that look like me. So I think the mindset becomes a bigger issue. This is a controversial topic, of course, because, you know, it's the important nuances that, you know. Prejudice and discrimination are still very real things.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent, but it's it's you, your, how you deal with it. There's that saying of, like. People get thrown things at them all the time, but it's your reaction that is. What makes it whatever it is, do you know what I'm saying? Look at the football, football at the moment and and racism. For example, Raheem could turn around, run into the crowd and start slapping whoever's being racist. But no, he deals with it properly, like a big man diligently and do you know what I'm saying? So it's about how you deal with it, definitely.

• 39:51Steven Bartlett?

  You um you spoke in your documentary about mental health in the music scene. You spoke a lot about your own battles with anxiety. It's um something that seems to be, seems to be more prevalent now in our generation than ever before. Um, you know, people point their fingers at social media and all these kinds of things. You mentioned earlier that you had, you felt you had a very cluttered mind, um which I thought was an interesting use of words. What what has your sort of experience with mental health been and um? Are you closer to understanding what what is causing it and what helps to sort of, I guess, cure it?

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I find, I find it affects everyone, like, you you have these moments, these times where you wake up. And I don't know, your serotonin levels might be low or whatever, but like, I can only talk for like how I deal with it. So like how I deal with it is like trying to eat better, like, because when I have heavy meals, it just makes you feel groggy and I just feel like. Do you know what I'm saying? Um.

• 40:50Steven Bartlett?

  Slow.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Gym, like, is another thing, um keeping like healthy. And just switching off sometimes and spending some time with like friends and that is quite important. A recent thing is like football for me, like, I was obviously a massive football fan when I was younger. But when I started doing S B, it was I couldn't go to the pub and watch games or go to Stamford Bridge and watch the games. So um music took over my life and it was like even again, like Chelsea was playing Valencia yesterday.

• 41:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  And I was talking at Havas and it was like, I've got a season ticket and it's like, I balance, like, it's happening again. Like where I'm stuck in between, like, do I go here and do I turn this down? And I think a lot of people didn't realise that I was a like massive football fan and like I've like. Starting going to a lot more games and it just like, it just removes me from everything and I'm just in the game for like, that period of time, which I find for me personally, like is like a, is like a relief. Like just from my crazy world, like and then I go back to my normal world again, like it's a bit weird, but yeah.

• 41:57Steven Bartlett?

  And you, you, I've read somewhere that you, your sort of relationship with anxiety is quite unpredictable. In the sense that your, anxiety comes over you randomly with a, without apparent cause.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I'll be in a place or I'll go into a place and I'll be like, I don't, I just, I don't know, I just like leave.

• 42:15Steven Bartlett?

  And did that start at a certain age or a certain time or was it?

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Um, I think so, yeah, it's like, I think it was a confidence thing as well. Like from young, I always wanted to make videos and just put them out there and whatever topics I wanted to talk about, I was gonna do a few videos and that was it, I wasn't gonna have like no real life interaction. Um, and I think that like, it, it's just always been there. I don't know how to, I don't know how to explain it really. Um, but I think a lot of it is confidence of, like it used to be like money gives you confidence. And then I realised your actual like life and your relationships gives you confidence with, with people. Like, and I think it was just the wrong messaging that I was looking at and I was giving into that.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  I allowed my brain to be sort of, um, sidetracked into what is, what is life? What is a fulfilled life?

• 43:08Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Um, and then that's what created me having like getting anxious in certain places, I go, I don't like this vibe or whatever. But I remember I worked in Topman for like four or five years. And that actually built my confidence a lot because I used to have to go up to people and ask people for store cards I did not know. And I think that that was one of the most frightening things I had to do. And that helped me like build like more, uh, relationships with people, talking to people. Cause I was just a very closed kid.

• 43:37Steven Bartlett?

  When I was, um, I just did this show with Channel Four in a, in a school called Secret Teacher.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:43Steven Bartlett?

  And, um, it was one of the things that I, I discovered from that process was that the people that I thought were the class, class clowns. So I walked into this classroom, I see all these kids, some of them are like throwing pencils, telling teachers to F off, throwing bottles, just messing around. And I'm sat there in lesson one thinking, these are just, these kids are just assholes, like they're just like horrible people, right? And then the more I got to know the kids, you un, un sort of ravel their stories and find out that the ones that are the biggest class clowns and behaving the worst were in fact bullied for four years when they were, you know, like six years old and they were, that they are, they are the ones that have the lowest confidence. And in fact, their behaviour was kind of a way to mask their kind of lack of confidence in themselves or the like the education or whatever.

• 44:25Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think that's, is that something that relate, you can relate to or?

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I think like, like, and I think with me, like I picked the wrong battles. Like from when I was young, like I remember in year seven, like I was in, I was in class and I think like

• 44:45Speaker 01

  someone must have like threw like a, a rubber in the back of my head there and I was like, what? Like I'd like just got so angry. Um, and like, I think with that certain group of people that that person was hanging around with. Um, I had like a problem with them, like, and I think, I don't know where it came from, whatever. I just thought like, yeah, he's like just picking on people, whatever. Um, and I remember I had an outburst like when I was like younger, in the early days when I was like year seven and you're like, like everyone's new. It's like you're, you're making your name. It's like you're, you're finding out who your group of friends are.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  And you're sort of like figuring out how you're gonna like go from year seven to eleven. Um, and I think, yeah, it can have an effect.

• 45:32Steven Bartlett?

  You talked a second about, um, figuring out more as you've gotten older, what like fulfillment is in life and what like happiness really is.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:39Steven Bartlett?

  Do you have that answer?

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Um, I don't have the answer.

• 45:42Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what it is for yourself? Do you know what the things are that?

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Um, for me, what makes me happy is being able to, um, give back. I think when I, when earlier, like years ago, I think money was like a big happiness factor, but.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  I've known people that have got serious money and they're not happy. So I feel like me, happiness for me is like being able to give back and improve other people's lives. Like, and I was doing that for years with S B. I put artists on and then they'd blow up. And then I'd be like, yes, I've like been helped, helped a career, do you know what I'm saying?

• 46:17Steven Bartlett?

  Um hum.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  And then like after that, it became more about the community of doing the stuff, the youth stuff. And that, like for me, is fulfillment.

• 46:24Steven Bartlett?

  And you, on the topic of giving back to people, you're opening youth centres back up in London?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got like four, um, supposed to do one. And then I ended up opening four because I just got carried away.

• 46:36Steven Bartlett?

  Um hum.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Um, they, they were centres that were closed, um. Two were like dropping sessions where young people can come and, uh, just somewhere outside of school and outside of your home. Um, where you can come and just talk, like if you've got problems or whatever. And we want to try and do a lot of mental health workshops. And then we've got another session, which is like music and media. Um, which like J B, I've kindly like thrown loads of stuff at us, Apple have given us loads of stuff. Where young people can come and learn to produce, film, um, anything that you want. And then we've got one, which is sports, which is like for kids that want to do sport. And I think the main thing that I want to do with these centres is, like, we've engaged over a hundred and fifty kids over the past thirteen, fourteen weeks.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Um, but it's like if a young person comes to me and says, I ask them, what do you want to do? One was like, I want to be a lawyer, one wants to be a sprinter, one wants to, um, be a librarian or whatever. I would then use my contacts to connect them to that right person.

• 47:35Steven Bartlett?

  Um hum.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  So then I'd go speak to like a law firm or I'll go speak to like Apple or I'll go speak to the British Library. And then get that young person in there for work experience, whatever. And to try and help build their self-belief and confidence, because I think that's one of the big things that I didn't have from when I was young. I didn't really have the confidence and self-belief, because no one used to tell me, you could do that, you could do that. I just sort of like looked at the T V and the newspapers and, and internet and made up my own mind. But that's one of the big things that I want to try and do for the young people today.

• 48:04Steven Bartlett?

  What impact did money have when you, you left Topman?

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Um.

• 48:07Steven Bartlett?

  Started making some money?

• 48:08Speaker 01

  I don't know, people like, you never know, people might be scheming on you, touch wood, I've like never been like robbed or whatever, but. Like you just never know. I've had people like. Say, oh Jamal, be careful, like, people will kidnap you or whatever. And I'm like, because I think like, people have that perception of you're making loads of money like in early days. And it wasn't that at all.

• 48:26Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  But it was like, oh, you've got like millions of views, you must be making loads of money. Um, so I feel like money just brings, money brings happiness and sadness, I think. Um, but in the, in the early days, I used to think money was, money made the world go round. I don't, I don't think that anymore.

• 48:43Steven Bartlett?

  Why not?

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Because money comes and goes, like, you're not gonna take, like, all the clothes that we're wearing and that.

• 48:50Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  When you're in the grave, it's not gonna matter. Obviously, you're gonna have money left back for your family, your close ones, whatever, but it's like, you have money and you lose money. I've had money, I've lost money.

• 49:01Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Like, so it's like.

• 49:04Steven Bartlett?

  If I gave you a hundred.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  A love hate relationship.

• 49:05Steven Bartlett?

  If I give you a hu- a cheque for one billion right now, would it make you happier?

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Um.

• 49:11Steven Bartlett?

  See you smiling.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. Um, yes or no, do you know what I'm saying? It has its pros and its cons, like, and I think it's what I would use the money for.

• 49:22Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Like, I think if I use the money for self.

• 49:25Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Self, like, go and buy a big yacht, house, like, because that could be very lonely.

• 49:32Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Like, whereas if I went and I did a tour and I opened up centres, obviously, you wanna spend a little bit money on yourself.

• 49:37Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  But if you spend it all on yourself, I think that would create a, like, crazy sort of dynamic, like, that would, like, go crazy. Go crazy, because some rich people I know are so bored.

• 49:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Like, what could, what, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go fly to Monaco today, yeah, I'm gonna fly here. And it's like, do you know what I'm saying? But you can survive yourself with those rich people, but like, normal people, they have nine to fives, not gonna come, because you wanna fly there for like,

• 50:03Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  God knows how long, but I don't know.

• 50:05Steven Bartlett?

  You said about money can make you feel quite lonely, especially if you get a big ass house and you're like, it's a mistake I made when I was twenty four, bought a big house. Um, forty miles, forty minutes away from all my friends, thinking I was some big guy.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:17Steven Bartlett?

  And then realised that I'd get home at midnight, so it's a forty minute drive that I didn't wanna do at night and an hour in the morning.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  I think everyone does that. I did that as well.

• 50:25Steven Bartlett?

  Stupid.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did that as well, like. And then I realised I wasn't.

• 50:28Steven Bartlett?

  It's the worst.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  For people to come to visit, it was like it's long, but then you realise who your true friends are. A little bit, if they come and visit, and there was only a few that actually came to visit, like where I was living far. I basically went from west to east.

• 50:40Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Why, but um and that journey is like an hour in itself, yeah, so um but yeah, that you actually realise who your true friends are. And I feel like when you're creating a business, you're gonna get a lot of people that will be like, oh, you forgot about me. Like, where are you like, do you know what I'm saying? But the real ones always be there, and I've realised that years later down the line, but it used to affect me like. Why are my friends not talking to me anymore? Like, they just think like I'm big headed or whatever, but they didn't realise I was just chasing a dream. And I think at a young age, they only saw that as like, they didn't realise that until now, but like, okay, we get it. And I think that's because as you grow up, you gain gain experiences and and you learn how to sort of deal with stuff.

• 51:18Steven Bartlett?

  And is it lo- ha- ha- has there been real lonely moments for you running the business and?

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's been sort of lonely lonely parts, um.

• 51:27Steven Bartlett?

  Cause people say that entrepreneurship and like running businesses is a really lonely.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think like, I think that's what I had to deal with when I was younger, like. Now, I I think I've got like a quite a good support group, but when I was younger, I didn't have that support group. And I think that's what like was programmed into my brain, like this is how business is, and I don't think it is and it isn't. Um, so yeah, like I've I've dealt with like lonely aspect from when I was younger and I didn't have anyone to ask. And I remember like my parents, like didn't think I could ask them, they didn't understand. And it's like, if I ask them about certain things, they'll be like, oh, I don't, I don't get it. So I've dealt with the loneliness when I was younger.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Now, if I, if there's loneliness, I know how to deal with it. When I was younger, I didn't know how to deal with it, and I dealt with it however I did, but um.

• 52:16Steven Bartlett?

  What what's the future for Jamal Edwards then? What's the like, the big, you know, when you look into it, we I. I don't necessarily have a plan for myself, I don't expect people to have a plan, but when you think about your future, what is that? What does it look like and feel like?

• 52:30Speaker 01

  I wanna do my own podcast.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  I don't know, I live like power of now, innit? Um, I live in the power of now, I'd like to do more that personal brand stuff and I feel like I've been building the Jamal Edwards brand, um, outside of the S S B. Um, I'd like to like do some more management and like tour, travel the world a bit as well. But travel the world and much more of a leisure tip. Um, instead of always being around work. Um, I don't think that will ever happen, but I can talk it into existence. I'd like to do more like youth centres, um, I'd like to open up more youth clubs. I'd like to be involved in more, um, entrepreneurship, managed musicians.

• 53:10Steven Bartlett?

  Will you ever be satisfied?

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Never, can never be satisfied. That should be on a T-shirt, never satisfied.

• 53:17Steven Bartlett?

  If you were to, I know you don't like talking about this topic because you said it earlier, but if you were to drop dead today.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:23Steven Bartlett?

  Would you have any regrets about the way you, you know, you'd done Jamal?

• 53:26Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I don't know, is that about, I don't know, is there a right answer for that?

• 53:31Steven Bartlett?

  There's not a right answer, no.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know, I think like.

• 53:33Steven Bartlett?

  I feel the same way.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like, oh, I feel like I had a good, good run. I feel like it's decent, like, I don't know, like.

• 53:40Steven Bartlett?

  No, I feel the same way.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  I think, yeah.

• 53:44Steven Bartlett?

  Would you still be thinking a little bit though, I could have done?

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent, I could have done that project, I could have filmed that person. I could have done that acting role or whatever, I don't know, like, and I think that will always be, like, always be in my head and I feel like. Yeah, do you know what I'm saying? And like, I really, I really believe in, um, like, just ca- like, just keep, keep on going, like, keep on going no matter what it is, um.

• 54:08Steven Bartlett?

  You're a, you're a, this is my last question, you're a, you're a, you're known for your network and for being a.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Network is your net worth.

• 54:14Steven Bartlett?

  Exactly, and you're, you're someone, of all the people that I've probably had on this podcast, like, I don't think anybody's got a better network, um, or sort of a phone book than you, uh, because it's.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Well, only Steve Bartlett, of course.

• 54:25Steven Bartlett?

  No, mine's nothing like yours, bro.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Come on, my bro.

• 54:27Steven Bartlett?

  No, no, not my, my network isn't like yours, bro.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  No, you're humble, bro, you're humble, bro.

• 54:33Steven Bartlett?

  These are the facts.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Well, no, like, come on, man.

• 54:35Steven Bartlett?

  No, but like this is, because it's like central to your business model as well is, um, being able to like connect people, bring them on and, and then, you know, the success of S B T V has been blowing these people up, like Ed Sheeran, et cetera. So I guess my question is, question I always ask everybody, um, you're having a dinner party.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Oh God, who's on the table?

• 54:53Steven Bartlett?

  Six people, I'm there because it's my house.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 54:56Steven Bartlett?

  You're there, right? Four other people and the only, the only.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Dead or Alive?

• 55:03Steven Bartlett?

  Dead or Alive?

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 55:05Steven Bartlett?

  And um also wanna know what the the starter is, the main course and the dessert.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Jesus, oh my god, give me time, alright.

• 55:14Steven Bartlett?

  You can have all the time in your.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 55:16Steven Bartlett?

  Who was that the first person that popped to mind when I said that? Was there a person?

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:20Steven Bartlett?

  Who was it?

• 55:21Speaker 01

  It was Stephen Hawking and Nelson Mandela.

• 55:23Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause I met Stephen Hawking before, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like mad and he. I think he went to, he met my mum as well. When my mum was in, we were at Q, so he went to go watch um at the Dominion Field. Um, I just, I was just trying to think of who are the greatest minds in the world.

• 55:39Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Like, mixed with random ones, like, I don't know, like, Chuckle Brothers or something. Like, Chuckle Brothers there, man. Um, so, yeah, I think, like, um.

• 55:51Steven Bartlett?

  Does Stephen Hawking's get a seat?

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. Nelson Mandela, I have some females in there, so like Mother Teresa or something.

• 55:59Steven Bartlett?

  Nice.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Um.

• 56:01Steven Bartlett?

  One more.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  One more?

• 56:03Steven Bartlett?

  That's it.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Wait.

• 56:05Steven Bartlett?

  Four, you you've sat, that one, you can, I can, I can ask him to get back up again. Four people dead or alive?

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 56:13Steven Bartlett?

  Stephen, I'm gonna have to ask you to stand back up, Jamal's not sure.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 56:18Steven Bartlett?

  Nelson, if you could just get to your feet.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Oh my days, damn.

• 56:24Steven Bartlett?

  I'll put them back on the waiting list.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Oh, nah, how could you do that to a man like Stephen?

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Um. Oh, mate. Like, I'm, I'm like using that really old school, like, just to like get some knowledge, you know what I'm saying? Like. Um, I'd say like. Throw Oprah Winfrey in there as well.

• 56:44Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:45Steven Bartlett?

  If you had to invite one person that's featured on S B T V, who would it be?

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Do you know what, did someone came to my head? Dave.

• 56:52Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, he's sick.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's like, like, I feel like, cause I'm watching Top Boy. I mean, he smashed that, he smashed that world as well. That's what buzzed that came to my head straight away. Um.

• 57:02Steven Bartlett?

  That's interesting.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:03Steven Bartlett?

  He's killing the game.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  I'd say, I'd say, I'd say Dave. Fried dumplings, for starters.

• 57:09Steven Bartlett?

  Nice.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, um.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Then for the main.

• 57:15Steven Bartlett?

  What's your your African heritage? Where are you from?

• 57:19Speaker 01

  I'm from Saint Vincent, Caribbean, so yeah, Saint Vincent and Grenadines.

• 57:23Steven Bartlett?

  I was born in Botswana.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Oh shit, Botswana to Saint Vincent. I'd like, I'd like, I know it's going off on topic, but. I'd like to find my real dad one day and know what side that side is. I don't know what my other side is, which is a bit.

• 57:38Steven Bartlett?

  Have you ever tried to find him?

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and uh, no, I don't know, I don't know. Done that ancestry thing, innit?

• 57:45Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  I don't know how true that is. That's a whole nother kettle of fist. That's a whole nother. Yeah, um, but yeah, um, main, the main, um. Do you know what? I'm just gonna go standard, like, rice, peas and chicken, I think.

• 58:04Steven Bartlett?

  Nice.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  No, this is so stereotypical. Yeah, of course he's gonna choose that. Do you know what? Actually, I will have the jasmine tea smoked chicken.

• 58:13Steven Bartlett?

  Oh nice.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, like that. Oh, that's still chicken. Oh my god. I'm thinking about chicken so much.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Do you know what? I'll go for some sea bass.

• 58:24Steven Bartlett?

  Sea bass, okay.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Sea bass with rice and some nice, some nice, but it's gotta have loads of garlic. I love garlic, garlic and ginger. With some basmati rice, yeah, with some nice sauce. Um, and then for dessert, I will have. Uh, scones. Oh my god.

• 58:41Steven Bartlett?

  Scones? I didn't expect that. You've been hanging around with rules too much.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Uh, no, just like four of them masons as you do. I love scones, like scones, yeah. Cause I'm not a big dessert. I like brownies and jelly. And ice, ice cream, sort of, but scones, yeah. Oh my god, I'm gonna have to get some scones today. I've started it. I'm gonna at you in the story. Like, Steve, I'm in, I'm in, I've got scones.

• 59:02Steven Bartlett?

  Like clotted cream and jam.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Clotted cream and jam. Oh my god, my mouth is watering. I am going for scones. And then for the drink, I'll have a ginger beer.

• 59:10Steven Bartlett?

  Oh really?

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Old Jamaica ginger beer, like banging with um some hot chocolate. And the the thing, I'm not, I've never drunk coffee in my life. Like people always want, like always, oh, let have an espresso. I like Cathy Patrone, but I've never had coffee. So I feel like when, if I give in to coffee, when I'm tired, that's just gonna be, I know people that wake up and that's it. I have coffee every day. But yeah, that's, that's, that's my meal. Yeah.

• 59:33Steven Bartlett?

  It's dope, dope, a little bit of everything and you clearly are food and you've got that sort of African, you know, heritage, Jamaican heritage, which is Caribbean heritage, which is.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  You've got it there in the end.

• 59:43Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 59:45Steven Bartlett?

  Listen, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me on SB.

• 59:48Steven Bartlett?

  Don't, don't, yeah.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  The other SB.

• 59:50Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe that's the podcast you should start SB.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, just do some SBs first. I'll do you and then I'll do Still Bangles.

• 59:57Steven Bartlett?

  Every SB, that would be dope, that would be dope.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Who else is there? I don't know, get thinking.

• 1:00:02Steven Bartlett?

  Anyway, thank you, bro. Appreciate it.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Nice one.

• 1:00:04Steven Bartlett?

  Pleasure.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Same.