You Slept With My Best Friend

The two couples had been inseparable—neighbors, chosen family, godparents to each other's children. She reaches out to Esther in despair after discovering that her husband had a ten-year-old affair with her best friend. For a decade, he kept the betrayal hidden while she believed they had built a loving marriage and family. Now she's left questioning whether any of it was real. They both want to stay together, but she's trapped in doubt and grief, while he's desperate to repair what he's broken. What does it take to rebuild a relationship after a betrayal of this magnitude? Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:26Speaker 01

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• 1:30Speaker 03

  My husband of over 15 years, about a year ago, I found out that nine, 10 years ago, he had a two-year-long affair with my best friend. I mean, she's the godmother to my daughter. They live one street over. They were both in our wedding. It was just a knife to the gut. Because everything I thought I knew is just not what I thought it was.

• 1:57Esther Perel?

  Most couples who come in the aftermath of an affair, come in the immediate aftermath. In this case, the affair took place 10 years ago. But she has just found out. So what is the past for him is the imminent present for her. She's been living with this now, in this turmoil, for about a year, trying to figure out what was the marriage, living with a secret in their midst. And she wants to know. Is this the man I thought he was? Is this the marriage that I thought we had? Did I make a fundamental mistake? Why did this happen?

• 2:35Speaker 05

  I think about it every day. It sucks. You know, I struggle with it every day. I don't really talk to her about it because I know she needs more taken care of than I do. And I don't want to hurt her. With everything that's gone on, our marriage has definitely gotten stronger. But I really want to help her. I really want to figure out how to help her move forward.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  There's been 10 years in between, where he's been an amazing husband, an amazing father. We've had another child since then. He's a wonderful provider. But I'm pretty lost. I feel like I'm stuck in this purgatory. I'm hurting constantly. I don't have joy with my kids anymore. I've lost the person that I am. And I want so badly to get back to that person. And I just don't know how.

• 3:24Esther Perel?

  And both of them are here to try to make sense of things and to find the permission to invest in their relationship and not just to be rooted in remorse. Let's listen.

• 3:44Speaker 06

  I found your book State of Affairs. It just gave me a different perspective. I was on your website one night and it was like, "Submit your story." And I never thought anything would come out of it.

• 3:54Esther Perel?

  And do you know where she brought you? Or do you just kind of follow along?

• 3:59Speaker 05

  No, I know where she brought me.

• 4:00Esther Perel?

  You know where you are?

• 4:01Speaker 05

  I know exactly where I am. I created this and I have to deal with it. And I support her in these things that she wants to do all day long.

• 4:10Esther Perel?

  I heard your line. Your line is "whatever she needs." But whatever she needs is one line. What do you need? Where are you coming from and how do you enter this is another that needs to exist too.

• 4:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, I I'm here for her, I'm here for us to figure out what we can do to make things better. Things that um you know that she might want or that I might want. What we both want from each other. The day like she came up behind me and gave me a hug. Felt so good and amazing and it was something that I was like, wow, I've never done that and I love that. It felt so good. So I think there's things like that that I wanna figure out.

• 4:55Esther Perel?

  Like what makes you happy?

• 4:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, what makes you happy and things that I can do better that would make you happier.

• 5:03Esther Perel?

  Just when you were talking now. And because of what you said. I created the mess. I don't even know what we're talking about yet, but. I created the mess. I'm responsible. Anything she needs. Sometimes when people are in that position, they have a sense that they have used up their quota for the rest of their relationship. I feel so guilty. I'm so responsible for the mess we're in. That I have no right to ask for anything anymore. So if she hugs me. And it feels so nice. I can't just say I loved it. I would like more of it. I have to go and say I'm here to make her happy so that if she's happy, she can make some things.

• 5:45Esther Perel?

  That make me feel good. It all kind of becomes a big detour. Laid out for me.

• 5:52Speaker 07

  I definitely don't do a lot for myself. It's always like, what can I do to make her happy? I I don't think I've said no to anything that she's requested since.

• 6:01Esther Perel?

  And all of this is recent? Or that has been the structure of your relationship always?

• 6:12Speaker 06

  I think generally it's been the structure. You're always very like easygoing and just, yep, I think.

• 6:18Esther Perel?

  But that's not easygoing. That is being powered by guilt and remorse.

• 6:25Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:26Speaker 07

  And I think that's part of my past too, and that's why I think I've just always done stuff myself and not asked for help. I'm not one to ask. I always try to just do things myself.

• 6:36Speaker 06

  You keep a lot inside.

• 6:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, mm-hmm, that too, mm-hmm.

• 6:40Speaker 06

  So if you wanted something, you're not good at asking.

• 6:43Speaker 07

  No, not at all.

• 6:45Esther Perel?

  Because?

• 6:48Speaker 07

  Um, when I was younger, I never like had the parent to be able to tell and feel comfortable about it. So, I mean, I was on my own. I was, uh, eighteen.

• 7:02Esther Perel?

  And I was on my own because?

• 7:05Speaker 07

  Uh, my father moved. Uh, my mother passed away at a very young age. Uh, well, not very young. She was young. She was.

• 7:11Speaker 06

  She was.

• 7:11Speaker 07

  She was fifty. She was fifty. So my mother died. But before that, uh, my father decided to go to Virginia. So I had to figure out what to do and just kind of.

• 7:23Speaker 06

  Basically, he gave him an ultimatum and said, you can come with me.

• 7:27Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 7:27Esther Perel?

  Don't help me.

• 7:30Esther Perel?

  No, sir. If he keeps everything in and he's in the middle of telling, we're gonna take that opportunity.

• 7:38Speaker 06

  Okay, sorry. I do that.

• 7:40Esther Perel?

  Absolutely. Not to apologize for, I'm just meeting you.

• 7:45Speaker 07

  Yeah, so it's got to a point where just was on my own, doing my own stuff. And that's something that I think

• 7:54Speaker 07

  I've tried to do with our kids way better than what I had is to pass on something better in structure and, you know, pay it forward in a better way than what we had or I had.

• 8:06Esther Perel?

  So your dad decides to move and he says, come with me or do whatever you want or?

• 8:11Speaker 07

  Yeah, pretty much. That's what it was is you can come down here or you can stay here and figure out, you know, what you wanna do. So I stayed and worked, I worked a ton.

• 8:21Esther Perel?

  And then what happened? Why are we here?

• 8:24Speaker 07

  Why are we here? So we're here because I made a mistake. Eleven years ago?

• 8:34Esther Perel?

  And you are together how many?

• 8:36Speaker 07

  We are together twenty one, twenty three years. Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 06

  Been married sixteen years.

• 8:44Speaker 07

  And I had an affair with her friend. Well, it was our friend, mutual friends. Her husband was my friend. They lived in like the next street over. And I had an affair with her for over a year.

• 9:05Esther Perel?

  And that came out now?

• 9:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, that came out.

• 9:07Esther Perel?

  A little bit of the.

• 9:08Speaker 07

  A year and a half ago.

• 9:10Speaker 06

  Almost, a little over a year.

• 9:12Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 9:13Speaker 06

  Basically, one of his friends knew about this all along, never said anything to anybody. And then decided to tell his best friend, who was the husband of her um last year. And that's how it all came out. I just thought it was absurd, like there's no way that that's true. And I kinda sat with it for about five months. And then I finally asked him and he told me a little. And then I found out more and then he told me a little bit more, but. It was so long ago that he is a little fuzzy in his memory about specifics, like when did it start? When did it end? He's had a hard time answering my questions.

• 9:57Speaker 06

  So I'm in my mind rewriting all the memories that I had. Of those, I think it was probably closer to two years. Because she was my best friend and her husband was his best friend. And like he said, they lived one street over. We were together as like a group almost every single day. They had a daughter, we just had a daughter. And we just were like one big happy family. That's all I knew us to be. And then, you know, fast forward nine years, she divorced her husband. But we were still friends with the husband. He was still best friends with him. Up until this all came out last year.

• 10:38Esther Perel?

  And you did not stay friends with her?

• 10:40Speaker 06

  No, I ended the friendship around that same time that he ended his relationship with her. She was changing and becoming a person that I didn't agree with. She was doing things with other men at that time, and I didn't agree with it. And I didn't want that kind of energy around our daughter. Basically, just stopped talking, and that was about eight years ago.

• 11:06Esther Perel?

  I'm listening to this sentence again now, and I remember listening to it in the session too. "I didn't like this energy, and I didn't like it for my daughter, who is a newborn at the time, or a one-year-old." And it's an interesting comment where the reaction is from one woman to another, but the justification invokes the mother. There's something about saying it's the energy that my child would absorb, feels more acceptable than to speak about what this is triggering in me, to be next to this woman who is talking to me about her attractions or alliances with other men.

• 11:49Esther Perel?

  And I know, I sense somewhere, that this could potentially be a threat to me, that this is not what I bring, that this is not how I enter my relationship. To the point that my husband has just, in the first two minutes of the session, talked about how amazing it was that I came to hug him from behind, because it was so unusual. And so, she describes a tension between two behaviors of women, but she justifies it by putting it in the context of her responsibility as a mother.

• 12:34Esther Perel?

  Who knows about it?

• 12:35Speaker 06

  For a good few months, nobody knew. And then I've told my best friend. And then I told another friend.

• 12:42Esther Perel?

  And what do they know?

• 12:44Speaker 06

  They know everything that I know.

• 12:47Esther Perel?

  So they know facts?

• 12:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:50Esther Perel?

  But they don't know meaning?

• 12:52Speaker 06

  Right. I don't really know the meaning.

• 12:54Esther Perel?

  Right. And that's part of what you've been wanting to know?

• 12:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, I've had a hard time getting past this because I just don't understand. Because I can see her doing this. It doesn't surprise me. But with him, I mean, you can ask anybody who knows him and they would never think in a million years it's something he would do. That's just so out of character for him. So the not understanding the why has just made it impossible for me to fully move on and stop thinking about it every day and stop looking back at pictures of us and rewriting the memories and questioning like, when were you with her? Did it happen in our house? It's hard to get

• 13:44Speaker 06

  past all of those thoughts because I just am still having a hard time understanding why and how.

• 13:54Esther Perel?

  Sometimes when you ask facts questions, where, when, how, how many, it makes it worse to go to sleep.

• 14:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:05Esther Perel?

  But it doesn't really help you make sense of it.

• 14:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:09Esther Perel?

  At this moment, I know what we are here to do. What is important for her in order to be able to have the images subside is for her to have clarification and understanding about how could this man do such a thing? And that means that we need to shift to a different set of questions. I've always thought that it was useful to distinguish between investigative questions and detective questions. Detective questions are questions that mind the facts. Where were you? Did you do it at home? Did you bring her here? Did you take her to that restaurant? Did our friends meet her? Did she do it better?

• 14:53Esther Perel?

  All of these things that really just keep us awake at night. Meaning questions bypass the facts and go for what happened to you there? Who were you in that relationship? What did that relationship invite in you that does not get expressed with me? Did you think about us? Did you think about the children? How was it when you would come home? How did you experience the duplicity? Did you want me to find out? I have about 150 of those questions that are about the meaning. What would make someone risk losing everything that they have built?

• 15:35Esther Perel?

  There must be something that is powerful enough, especially for those for whom this is really not in character. And he doesn't understand that either about himself. So in effect, I meet them and they share the same question.

• 16:02Esther Perel?

  You were saying something before when you said, "I've always decided things on my own." So this is even before your mom. This is before your dad leaves. You have an experience of yourself as in my family.

• 16:25Esther Perel?

  A, I don't get to have needs.

• 16:29Esther Perel?

  And if I do,

• 16:32Esther Perel?

  I'm only myself to respond to them.

• 16:37Esther Perel?

  Did I get that right?

• 16:38Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 16:39Esther Perel?

  Tell me more.

• 16:42Speaker 07

  Growing up, it was all like not being able to talk to your parents and bring up stuff and talk to them and feel comfortable with them. I think really just kind of made me feel more closed in and just keep everything to myself. And just manage it myself and try to figure out how to deal with it and do it. Even to this day, it's hard for me to ask for help.

• 17:02Esther Perel?

  So you just said something before about how much you were moved when she came and hugged you from behind and spontaneously showed affection. Would you ever ask for that?

• 17:17Speaker 07

  Before, no, no.

• 17:19Esther Perel?

  Would you ask for it now or just say, I really appreciate it when you?

• 17:24Speaker 07

  I don't think I've asked for it since. I think when she did it, I just told her, I was like, that's the first time you've ever done that and it felt so good.

• 17:32Esther Perel?

  That's a lot.

• 17:33Speaker 07

  And I just said, thank you.

• 17:35Esther Perel?

  Do you think that your affair was a way to ask for things that you don't usually ask?

• 17:42Speaker 07

  Possibly, yeah, I think so, but I don't think it's her fault at all. I think it's my fault because I didn't ask for it.

• 17:50Esther Perel?

  We're gonna set a few ground rules. We're not gonna go into whose fault it is because it's not gonna help us to put blame.

• 17:59Esther Perel?

  And we're not gonna justify it, but we are gonna try to make sense of it. Because she needs it and you need it too. And it has probably not much to do with her. And hence, it actually is really interesting to find out what happened there. Because affairs are often out of character.

• 18:22Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 18:23Esther Perel?

  They are parallel stories that suddenly enable people to do stuff they don't know how to do in their life. And so they do it in the shadow of their life.

• 18:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:36Esther Perel?

  I know it has nothing to do with her. Except that it has to do with the fact that maybe she's not the person who spontaneously comes and hugs you and you crave it.

• 18:47Esther Perel?

  So, that's one thing you know you want more of.

• 18:50Speaker 07

  And I should be asking for it.

• 18:52Esther Perel?

  Yes, not should.

• 18:54Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 18:55Esther Perel?

  Feel free. You don't have to, but you can. So, what I asked you was, did you have a sense that there was something that freed up when you were in the affair, where you could ask for things that you don't usually ask?

• 19:15Speaker 07

  I think it was more of I didn't have to ask because she would just do that.

• 19:20Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm. You know, for people who don't ask, to be given to and bypass the asking is huge.

• 19:31Speaker 07

  Yeah, I guess you could say it felt easy, like there wasn't work involved.

• 19:35Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:36Speaker 07

  It was just simple.

• 19:38Esther Perel?

  When he says it was easy, I translate it as I could have my needs met and never have to feel needy. Since I had learned to be self-sufficient, since I lost mom and I lost dad and I knew I only had myself, I cured my needs.

• 20:00Esther Perel?

  In this relationship, in the shadow of my life, I rediscovered them without having to face the consequences of the neediness and the longing that goes with it.

• 20:18Esther Perel?

  Did you ever think that part of why you did it was because the siren call was irresistible?

• 20:27Speaker 07

  Yeah. I guess you could say that.

• 20:31Esther Perel?

  He woke up

• 20:34Esther Perel?

  the most forbidden needs, wishes, longings that this boy, who then became man, had yearned for and never felt.

• 20:47Esther Perel?

  And it was so powerful that it made him do stuff that in his life, in his rational mind, he would never do.

• 20:55Esther Perel?

  And so he lives with this contradiction.

• 20:58Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:59Esther Perel?

  Between...

• 21:02Esther Perel?

  This deep need for connection and closeness and touch. And the fact that it came with a betrayal. And so you're stuck with, this isn't me. That's not what I would ever do. And this is the most me I've ever been.

• 21:27Esther Perel?

  Sometimes when we layer the psychology of the person who has the affair, it may seem like they're getting a free pass. They're not being held accountable. It's as if to humanize them, to make them more complex, is to be protective of the wrong person. I would like to suggest differently. When she listens to him from that place, it helps her, one, to really not personalize it as much. Two, it gives her something to connect with, with the person, to actually activate empathy for this person,

• 22:11Esther Perel?

  which is not just as a way of letting them get away with something, but it is actually as a way of allowing them to connect with them again. It is at the core of what will provide a new type of intimacy between them. And it is often a misunderstood step.

• 22:32Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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• 23:42Esther Perel?

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• 24:25Esther Perel?

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• 24:45Speaker 07

  Did any of your parents have affairs? My mother and father divorced. Yes. Which one had the affair? Um, I don't know. I don't know anything about it. Your mom. I actually really don't. All I know is, they used to fight a lot. I don't know the exact reason of why they split. I thought that they just got divorced because they didn't like each other. You do know? Because we've talked about it. And it was your mom. She had an affair. I didn't know she had an affair.

• 25:18Speaker 07

  We never talked about that.

• 25:23Speaker 07

  Sorry. I didn't know that.

• 25:27Speaker 07

  We never spoke about that. I do remember having a conversation with you.

• 25:32Speaker 06

  I remember you saying, "I'm just like my mom."

• 25:36Speaker 07

  No.

• 25:40Speaker 07

  I'm sorry, but I don't remember that. I'm sorry that I don't.

• 25:44Speaker 06

  No, I'm sorry that you don't, and I just said that to you.

• 25:50Speaker 06

  I swear you knew.

• 25:52Speaker 07

  Mm-mm.

• 25:53Speaker 06

  I feel awful.

• 25:54Speaker 07

  You didn't feel awful. It's not your fault.

• 26:00Esther Perel?

  A lot of "I don't know" often makes me wonder the degree to which the exposure was traumatic.

• 26:10Esther Perel?

  Some things were too much to take in for how young the person was or for the place that they were in within the family. So, "I don't know" is a way that people sometimes use to protect, not because they don't want to be honest, but because when people don't remember their childhoods, it often speaks trauma.

• 26:38Speaker 06

  Your mom was a good person, and that doesn't define who she was,

• 26:44Speaker 06

  just like it doesn't define who you are.

• 26:47Speaker 06

  Then I need you to understand that you're a good person.

• 26:52Speaker 07

  I think I'm probably the best person I've ever been in a long time.

• 26:57Speaker 06

  Well, that's what has been the hardest part for me is because the marriage I knew that I thought that I had was perfect. You're a great husband. You've been an amazing father, an amazing provider. You have drive. You're everything that I want in a partner. And

• 27:21Speaker 06

  that's why when I found out, it wasn't a question of, "Do I stay or do I go?" You know, if it came to light then, I would have questioned whether or not I would have stayed with you and probably wouldn't have. But we've had so much good since that ended. This last year has been very challenging, but you've still been the same husband that you've always been, the person that I want to be with.

• 27:52Speaker 07

  Yeah, I'm sorry for all of this. I wish I could turn it all around.

• 27:58Speaker 06

  And what's hard for me also is that you wanted more affection. And I'm not the most affectionate person. But if you just came to me before you allowed something like that to happen.

• 28:13Speaker 07

  You could have worked on it.

• 28:14Speaker 06

  We could have worked on it. Like, it's not something that needed to happen.

• 28:19Speaker 07

  No, I totally agree.

• 28:21Speaker 06

  And you still have a hard time asking for things. And I still have a hard time being as affectionate as I would like to be. Our lives are very busy and just always going through the motions with family and put you last, which I shouldn't.

• 28:35Esther Perel?

  Put that sentence first.

• 28:38Speaker 06

  I shouldn't put him last.

• 28:39Esther Perel?

  Because your life is not as busy and you have plenty of affection for your kids.

• 28:44Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 28:44Esther Perel?

  There is no problem of time.

• 28:47Speaker 06

  Right, I give them my time.

• 28:49Speaker 07

  I think we give our kids too much time and not you and I enough time.

• 28:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 28:55Speaker 07

  I think we do everything for everybody. And you and I always come last. Literally, we come last.

• 29:02Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 29:03Speaker 07

  We do a lot for a lot of people with helping them, giving our kids everything that they want, they need. And then the day comes to an end and

• 29:16Speaker 07

  you and I don't even have enough time to enjoy ourselves. I mean, we meal prep for our dog.

• 29:23Speaker 06

  We do.

• 29:25Speaker 07

  But we don't take care of us.

• 29:28Esther Perel?

  If you could talk to how you want it to be different, what would it look like? Where would it be?

• 29:35Speaker 07

  It would be giving ourselves time when we want it. Whatever it is, just you and I go for a walk with the dog. We say we're gonna do it, but then we're like, oh, well, you know, kids or this or that. We have a hard time, I think, just putting our foot down for ourselves.

• 29:53Esther Perel?

  Both of you?

• 29:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 29:55Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:56Esther Perel?

  And so what stands in the way? What makes it so hard?

• 30:01Speaker 07

  Um. Because we love our damn kids so much. I think it's also because we're tired. We're exhausted from long days of work and I think you just take the defeat and you're toast.

• 30:15Esther Perel?

  What were you gonna say?

• 30:16Speaker 06

  Um, as far as when it comes to like the kids and putting them first, I feel guilty if I don't because I never had that as a kid growing up. My parents didn't put me first in the way we do with our kids. But I don't wanna take that away from them, so I just always put them first, but I always put everybody else first. That's just my personality.

• 30:42Esther Perel?

  You know, on the long list of what children need,

• 30:47Esther Perel?

  parents who pay attention to each other should feature high up.

• 30:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:55Esther Perel?

  Because these days, the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple.

• 31:01Speaker 06

  Yes, I believe that.

• 31:03Esther Perel?

  So if you want your kids to have all what you want them to have, you actually need to give more to you.

• 31:10Speaker 06

  Uh huh.

• 31:11Esther Perel?

  But if you feel that for every time you turn to him, you're abandoning them, then it will be problematic.

• 31:21Speaker 06

  Uh huh.

• 31:21Esther Perel?

  It won't matter if it's a hug to him,

• 31:27Esther Perel?

  eyes to him.

• 31:30Esther Perel?

  We're not even talking about a vacation or a night away. We're talking about attention from the woman to the man that is different than from the mother to the family.

• 31:42Speaker 06

  Right.

• 31:45Esther Perel?

  So, he said, "I didn't get any of this and I made a mission for myself."

• 31:53Esther Perel?

  And that mission is gonna make me super mom and shocked when he says I love this.

• 32:01Speaker 07

  And I don't even think it's really the time away. I think it's even just the small little things for you and I to do together.

• 32:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:10Speaker 07

  Would be great.

• 32:12Speaker 06

  We don't prioritize our relationship.

• 32:15Esther Perel?

  I don't prioritize.

• 32:17Speaker 06

  But he doesn't either, like re-

• 32:20Esther Perel?

  I know that, but he just asked. This was actually a big one. This is an ask. This is how we look at each other while we are in the kitchen together.

• 32:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:32Esther Perel?

  And i- if you say, "Help me understand what happened there", this is a piece of it. Just is.

• 32:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, I agree.

• 32:42Esther Perel?

  No, that doesn't make it right, by no means, but it is at the core of what this, I think, was.

• 32:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:53Esther Perel?

  And sometimes affairs happen just because people are not paying attention to each other.

• 33:02Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 33:03Esther Perel?

  For everything that doesn't involve your children, you basically say, "I don't want them to miss anything", as if they're missing something.

• 33:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, we say that a lot.

• 33:16Esther Perel?

  You know, as if they're missing something, but the two of you are kind of underfed.

• 33:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:24Esther Perel?

  Overstructured and underfed. And part of what will help you deal with the past is to change what's happening now.

• 33:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I've never actually thought of it that way, that it's true, like, our marriage is stronger because we're stronger, but we are still repeating the same things that basically got us there in the first place.

• 33:51Esther Perel?

  What is amazing about affairs is the energy.

• 33:56Esther Perel?

  Nothing stops anybody. People are never too busy, nor too tired, nor too stressed.

• 34:05Speaker 06

  Right.

• 34:07Esther Perel?

  Suddenly, they have energy galore. Before they get to work, they stop somewhere. If people could put some of that very energy that is living totally in parallel with the rest of their life and bring some of that into their marriages, marriages would be doing really well.

• 34:26Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 34:27Esther Perel?

  The zest, the fervor, the imagination, the playfulness, the curiosity, the intensity, you name it. So when I hear people tell me that they're too busy after hundreds of these, it's like...

• 34:44Speaker 07

  Bullshit.

• 34:45Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 34:47Speaker 07

  It is.

• 34:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 34:49Esther Perel?

  I just like, seriously.

• 34:53Esther Perel?

  So, the stakes are high. For every time you think, "I need to figure out what happened back then", it's, "I need to figure out what's not happening now."

• 35:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I don't do that.

• 35:07Esther Perel?

  No.

• 35:08Speaker 07

  So I think we do something tonight where we put in our calendar when we get back home, and we make that happen.

• 35:14Esther Perel?

  And you can do a thing that's one minute a day.

• 35:17Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 35:19Esther Perel?

  And five minutes and this and... But it's about deliberate attention. If you enjoy touch, you go hug her from the back.

• 35:29Speaker 07

  Hmm, I do.

• 35:30Esther Perel?

  And if she pushes a little bit, because she's in the middle of something...

• 35:35Speaker 07

  Push back.

• 35:36Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 35:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, I do do that.

• 35:39Esther Perel?

  You say, "Of course you do that."

• 35:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:41Esther Perel?

  Of course you do that. Because the mother that you want to be will not let the woman breed.

• 35:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's very accurate.

• 35:53Esther Perel?

  There is that thing, that slight lifting of the shoulder, stiffening of the neck, that just says, "Not a good time, not a good time. I'm busy, I'm, I'm, I'm somewhere else." And this is where you say, "Come in, come in.

• 36:08Esther Perel?

  We have something important to do."

• 36:12Esther Perel?

  I have yet to meet a couple that will regret having hugged.

• 36:18Esther Perel?

  I only meet couples who regret never hugging.

• 36:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:23Esther Perel?

  Or holding, or looking at each other for a second, or smiling to each other. And we're not talking sex yet, we're just talking physicality.

• 36:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:33Esther Perel?

  Playfulness, surprise, stuff that makes people alive. You can be not dead, but that's not the same as alive.

• 36:45Speaker 07

  So we need to demand more out of each other.

• 36:48Esther Perel?

  Beautiful.

• 36:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:50Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 36:51Speaker 07

  Even if it's two seconds, even if it's just a hug.

• 36:56Speaker 07

  Just to say how our day was, not our kids, like, let's just leave them to the side and just give each other a conversation, I guess.

• 37:04Esther Perel?

  You actually wouldn't be leaving them to the side, you would be teaching them something so important.

• 37:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:13Esther Perel?

  Because, as you just described, we learn love in part from what we see at home.

• 37:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:20Esther Perel?

  You would not be any less busy with them, you just won't be catering to them. You actually will be showing them a cycle of reciprocity between two people.

• 37:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:33Esther Perel?

  But it's gonna come from you.

• 37:38Esther Perel?

  Meaning, it's the opposite of what you've done for the last 10 years. How much can I occupy the least space possible? This is gonna be the opposite, but it's gonna be in the service of the relationship and in the service of your feeling valued, which is for sure one of the things that gets broken when you find out that your partner had an affair 10 years ago.

• 38:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:05Esther Perel?

  Do I matter? Show her you she matters.

• 38:09Speaker 06

  Part of my problem, though, is that I still have a lot of anger for what he did. So that's sometimes why I just kind of retract, because it's just changed things for me so much.

• 38:19Esther Perel?

  But you always did.

• 38:23Speaker 06

  Did I?

• 38:24Speaker 07

  A little bit, yeah.

• 38:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's not always, but a lot of the times I think about it just. I don't want to because.

• 38:35Esther Perel?

  Yeah, and then you can tell him.

• 38:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:37Esther Perel?

  Right now, you're on the shit list.

• 38:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, sometimes.

• 38:41Esther Perel?

  I want nothing to do, but it's okay, but make it obvious.

• 38:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:46Esther Perel?

  Your angry has its place. Tell him.

• 38:50Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I usually don't.

• 38:53Esther Perel?

  And if she gets pissed, you can also say, I'm doing everything I can to repair this. And I have. And I need you to do it with me because fundamentally, we've decided to be together and stay together. Let's bring this back to life.

• 39:10Speaker 07

  And we love each other.

• 39:11Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 39:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, I keep a lot of that in. I feel like we don't really talk about what happened. Certainly, he doesn't bring it up, especially now that some time has gone by and I hold a lot of resentment because I feel like I'm just on a boat in the middle of the ocean by myself, holding all these feelings of betrayal and anger and confusion and. I I struggle every day with what you did and how you did it and how you live with yourself. Because there was a good period of time, a good chunk of time, when it was exposed that I still didn't know. And it's so hard for me to understand like how you lived with yourself for those five, six months, knowing that it was

• 40:00Speaker 06

  out there and that I probably would at that point find out. And you were just waiting for me to be the one to ask.

• 40:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, I felt horrible. I mean, it was miserable to hold in. It's terrible to hold in. It's not knowing what that is gonna be when it comes out and how you're gonna feel and what you're gonna do and your reaction and what other people are gonna think and everything and how I'm gonna get judged and all of it.

• 40:26Esther Perel?

  You feel bad for her? Or bad for you?

• 40:31Speaker 07

  I feel terrible for her that she's had to make this part of her life. I think it's not what anybody should have to go through.

• 40:41Esther Perel?

  But what she wants to know is how come you never thought of being the one to break the silence with her?

• 40:50Speaker 07

  I don't know, I don't, I think it was just more of a not wanting to hurt her and obviously I had already done that.

• 40:57Speaker 06

  I think you didn't wanna deal with the repercussions.

• 41:01Speaker 07

  Oh, that too, obviously, yeah.

• 41:03Speaker 06

  Which makes me circle my mind back of how could you do what you did, knowing what the repercussions could be?

• 41:11Speaker 07

  No idea.

• 41:13Esther Perel?

  You still would say I don't know?

• 41:17Speaker 07

  To why I did it?

• 41:19Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:20Speaker 07

  Well, part of that affection thing, that she was just there all the time and I didn't have to ask for it and she would give it.

• 41:26Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm, and it's like drinking from a fire hose.

• 41:29Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:31Esther Perel?

  Your mom dies, your dad quits.

• 41:35Esther Perel?

  And you find someone who's always there?

• 41:37Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:38Esther Perel?

  That means a lot. If you can let it sink in.

• 41:42Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:44Esther Perel?

  So you have to stop saying I don't know why. That's one of these lines that is becoming very encrusted.

• 41:55Esther Perel?

  How did it end? Do you know?

• 42:00Speaker 07

  I don't a hundred percent recall how it ended. I don't know, she was going through stuff, she was also, I believe, seeing like other people. On top of all this, and then I think at that point was planning on leaving him and moving on.

• 42:16Esther Perel?

  And how was that for you?

• 42:19Speaker 07

  Okay. Done. I had no emotional connection with her. We ended it and that was it.

• 42:27Esther Perel?

  And while it was happening, did you sometimes think this should stop? Or this is

• 42:33Speaker 07

  Yeah, but she was a very persistent person.

• 42:37Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:38Speaker 07

  Very, very persistent.

• 42:41Esther Perel?

  The word she's persistent. What does it mean?

• 42:46Speaker 07

  The persistence?

• 42:47Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 42:48Speaker 07

  That she was just always there?

• 42:52Speaker 07

  In pushing, in pushing, in pushing for it.

• 42:54Esther Perel?

  In what sense? That she had her hands on you? And you didn't have to

• 43:01Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 43:01Esther Perel?

  Come over to, like, you know, it's a useful word, but it doesn't really say anything. Did she threaten you? Did she insist? Did she make it so that you didn't feel that you had options? Did she smother you? Did she fuck you ten different ways that made it so irresistible? What is persistence?

• 43:21Speaker 07

  She just was persistent. I don't know, like, I'm trying to answer your.

• 43:25Esther Perel?

  You were in it.

• 43:25Speaker 07

  Huh?

• 43:26Esther Perel?

  I wasn't there.

• 43:27Speaker 07

  I didn't say you were there.

• 43:28Esther Perel?

  I'm saying.

• 43:29Speaker 07

  I'm saying, that's what I know, and if I knew how I felt, I'd have that answer.

• 43:33Esther Perel?

  But you know what happens.

• 43:34Speaker 07

  But I don't know, I do, but I don't know why, in my mind, I kept letting her do that.

• 43:42Speaker 07

  Like, I wasn't going to her, she was coming to me, so I don't know why I kept letting that happen.

• 43:49Speaker 07

  I'm not sure I have a hundred percent reason, so I don't want to say something that maybe isn't correct, but.

• 43:53Esther Perel?

  It's not like you're putting your feet on the fire here, I'm exploring it with you.

• 43:57Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm. I'm sure there was a lot of things going through my head, and I don't recollect all of that. I don't.

• 44:09Esther Perel?

  What does it mean that he doesn't know? Is it that he forgot? Is it that it remained vague? Is it that he was so in the swing of things that he didn't have to really ask himself much? Or is it also that people who grow up very alone? And who learn not to have needs? Also learn not to have a vocabulary that allows them to know what they feel? What they know is that there was something very powerful happening to them. What it represented? Why it was so irresistible? Where it layered itself onto early childhood needs? They don't make all of these connections. And when he talks about what he needs and what he feels, it is in the physical language.

• 44:52Esther Perel?

  It is in a very early language. A language that is before we speak with words. That is where his emotional truth takes place.

• 45:03Esther Perel?

  So I can push, I can challenge, I can question, but it doesn't get translated into a vocabulary of emotions.

• 45:18Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 45:31Speaker 02

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• 46:53Speaker 06

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• 47:03Speaker 06

  And I've mostly accepted that I'm just never gonna get those answers. But it definitely makes it harder to try to close that chapter and focus on now, because I just keep going back to then.

• 47:15Esther Perel?

  That is possibly true, but maybe not. The idea that if I have the answers to these questions, it will help me put you to sleep, it could be the opposite.

• 47:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 47:29Esther Perel?

  What you know is that you've lived 10 more years.

• 47:35Esther Perel?

  That were very real as well. Question we often have is, is the 10 years defined by the secret or by what happened?

• 47:44Speaker 06

  That's what I question.

• 47:47Esther Perel?

  There is nobody who can give you a definitive on this one.

• 47:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 47:52Esther Perel?

  The little bit I gather, I think that what you lived together is real.

• 47:59Esther Perel?

  And he had a secret.

• 48:03Esther Perel?

  Sometimes I think the conversation is less about the affair than about the secret around the affair.

• 48:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:09Esther Perel?

  Secret is a lot longer.

• 48:12Esther Perel?

  And how much did that secret have an effect on you?

• 48:18Esther Perel?

  What it's like for him to spend 10 years organized around a secret? That kind of lives in the middle of this relationship. Maybe not all the time, maybe not at all. But it's a useful question. It's like you, me, and your secret have had a relationship here as well.

• 48:39Speaker 06

  Yes, and I've asked him that because that makes me question like, he's always been wonderful for these 10 years. Was that because he just grew into that person? Or was some of that driven by guilt? And he was trying to make up for it? It makes me question those 10 years.

• 49:00Speaker 06

  Were they true?

• 49:01Speaker 07

  And?

• 49:02Speaker 06

  I haven't gotten an answer about it that.

• 49:05Speaker 07

  What's the question?

• 49:08Speaker 06

  Did you think about it for the last ten years? Did it?

• 49:13Speaker 07

  Did it affect me? Yes. A hundred percent every day. Keeping something like that is miserable. It's horrible. It's not what I would want anybody to go through. On top of you going through what you're going through. But to hold something like that is shit. It sucks. It's taxing on your life because you don't know how you

• 49:39Speaker 07

  how you can deal with yourself. And then you just think all your life like,

• 49:45Speaker 07

  who else will find out? Who else will judge you? How they're gonna perceive you for what you did?

• 49:52Speaker 07

  And it's all the time. I still have that. I still have that every single day. That never leaves.

• 49:59Speaker 06

  Honestly, I didn't think you thought about it unless I brought it up.

• 50:02Speaker 07

  No, it's never gonna go away. It'll never go away. You wish you could rewrite the storybook.

• 50:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 07

  You can't.

• 50:18Speaker 07

  The only thing you can do is just move forward and be who you really wanna be with the person you wanna be with.

• 50:27Speaker 06

  Which you have.

• 50:30Speaker 07

  I just wish you had a better book to write.

• 50:34Speaker 07

  You really do. You really do.

• 50:39Speaker 06

  I mean, what you did doesn't define your whole life. It's just a part of our story that I never wanted either.

• 50:46Speaker 07

  I know.

• 50:48Speaker 06

  But it's not the whole story. And I've accepted that very early on. But I just didn't know where you were.

• 50:57Speaker 06

  Or even if you thought about it.

• 50:59Speaker 07

  I'm here.

• 51:00Speaker 06

  I know you're here. But that's because, like you said in the beginning, you were here because me.

• 51:09Speaker 06

  And I wouldn't be here if you weren't the person now that I love so much.

• 51:17Speaker 07

  I love you too.

• 51:19Speaker 06

  I hate that version of you.

• 51:21Speaker 07

  Me too.

• 51:22Speaker 06

  But you've been a wonderful person a lot longer than when you were a bad person.

• 51:30Esther Perel?

  Did you get some answers?

• 51:33Speaker 06

  I did, yeah. I actually feel a lot better. Something as simple as just knowing that he

• 51:41Speaker 06

  thinks about it and I'm not alone with the

• 51:46Speaker 06

  awful emotions and thoughts every day. That means a lot. So that's not something he's ever said to me.

• 51:54Esther Perel?

  I don't tell her that I think about this because I don't think that my thinking matters.

• 52:04Esther Perel?

  Because only hers is important. But then she's left thinking that she's the only one who cares.

• 52:12Esther Perel?

  Every time you think that by doing less, asking less, saying less.

• 52:19Speaker 07

  Is worse.

• 52:20Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 52:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, absolutely. I judge myself all the time about this.

• 52:26Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 52:27Speaker 07

  Every day.

• 52:29Esther Perel?

  It would help her a lot. And you, by the way. But if you really think, what can I do to help her? This will.

• 52:40Esther Perel?

  Can I ask you something? Do you feel like you deserve the life, the marriage, the family, the wife?

• 52:50Speaker 07

  I think some days, they deserve better. My kids deserve better.

• 52:59Esther Perel?

  So when she says you're not defined by this one action, you say, no, I am?

• 53:05Speaker 07

  I think I have a long way to go still.

• 53:09Speaker 07

  But it's also the future as your kids get older. I think about

• 53:14Speaker 07

  what if they do find out? What's gonna happen?

• 53:16Esther Perel?

  What's gonna happen is you're gonna tell them your dad fucked up. And he was blessed to have the opportunity to repair. He had an amazing partner, wife, who said, there is more to you than this. It was a big mistake. But it probably motivated you to

• 53:39Esther Perel?

  become a lot more conscientious.

• 53:43Esther Perel?

  And that life is filled of broken pieces that we put back together.

• 53:51Esther Perel?

  And that it made you value what you had even more.

• 53:55Esther Perel?

  So you talk about what is rupture and what is repair? And what is remorse? And what is guilt? And what is acknowledgement? And what is betrayal? And what is love?

• 54:08Esther Perel?

  And how the two of you were able to take this wound? And it became a scar.

• 54:17Esther Perel?

  And that'll be an amazing lesson.

• 54:31Speaker 00

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 55:09Speaker 02

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