THE UNKNOWN: Near Death Experiences

In 1975, Dr. Raymond Moody learned that those who came close to death had experienced similar visions and sensations before returning to their bodies. He called these moments Near Death Experiences, or NDEs—where subjects spoke of travelling through a tunnel, being greeted by deceased loved ones… even encountering spiritual entities. The consistency of the reports, including such vivid details and emotions, have led many to wonder if this is validation of an afterlife.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The real cost of a break-in isn't your valuables. It's the feeling that your home stopped being safe. SimpliSafe keeps danger away from your family with three layers of protection. One, smart AI cameras and live US-based agents help stop intruders before they break in. Two, we sound the alarm at points of entry. Three, our agents request emergency response. Plans starting around a dollar a day. Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com/truecrime. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  When you're in my line of work, there is one thing that's always top of mind. Something you literally can't escape the thought of no matter how much doom scrolling and reality dating competitions you watch.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  And that is the ever-present fear of death. And yes, I know, obviously, me working in true crime is a huge part of that. But honestly, the world is such a scary place. Even without the endless hours of heartbreaking research and interviews I do, death still feels unavoidable. And that's because it is. Death will find each and every one of us some way, somehow, no matter how hard we try to stop it.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  But maybe we don't need to be as terrified of that moment as we think. Because it turns out there's plenty of people who have come really close to death's doorstep, only to knock and be shooed away like an unwanted salesman.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  But I want to know who or what makes those decisions? Because apparently, a lot of people have gotten a peek to the other side, proving that something else may actually exist once we move on from this life to the next. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is So Supernatural.

• 2:24Yvette Gentile?

  Welcome back everyone. I'm Yvette Gentile.

• 2:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  And I'm her sister, Rasha Pecoraro. And today, we're taking a peek beyond the veil as we try to uncover one of life's biggest mysteries. What happens to us when we die?

• 2:43Yvette Gentile?

  But we can't talk about death without talking about grief, because it comes in many different forms. And loss can mean a lot of different things. Whether it's, I don't know, a breakup, or your best friend is moving out of town, or a layoff from a job. Change is uncomfortable, and it can be really difficult for us to adjust to, especially when it has to do with something or someone we truly care about. But death is different, mainly because it's so permanent. The idea of never getting to share memories with that person again, never getting to hug them, or see them smile again,

• 3:28Yvette Gentile?

  or say you're sorry if you need to, or just simply tell them you love them. That pain is life-altering. And believe me, Rasha and I know we know this pain oh so well. And we've shared and spoken about it with all of y'all before. The loss of our mother is something we still deal with every single day.

• 3:57Yvette Gentile?

  But if there's anything this show has taught us, it's that there's so much about life we still don't understand. And I truly hope today's stories will bring you some peace in knowing that maybe death isn't our final bow, or our final curtain call. Maybe the show does go on. And maybe it's not goodbye after all.

• 4:25Rasha Pecoraro?

  That's what a reporter named Sebastian Younger came to believe. He never really identified with religion or a particular god. He wasn't one to believe in the soul, in spiritualism or mysticism. In fact, he never really believed in anything that couldn't be scientifically measured and quantified. Instead, he focused on the things he could prove were real, like the topics he reported on. In 1997, he broke into nonfiction publishing. And then, throughout the 2000s, he became a very successful and respected author.

• 5:05Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, I have to talk about Sebastian Younger because I started reading his book in my time of dying. And I was absolutely blown away. He has such a beautiful way of telling a story, like he puts you right there in that place and time. And he wrote something in his book that I just want to read to you guys that really stuck with me. He says, "Dying is the most ordinary thing you will ever do, but also the most radical. You will go from a living, conscious being to dust. And nothing in your life can possibly prepare you for such a transition." Is that deep?

• 5:49Rasha Pecoraro?

  Wow, I think I need to read Sebastian's book. But Sebastian, just like a lot of people, had to change everything about his lifestyle during the COVID pandemic. Once the shelter-at-home orders went out, he and his family moved out of their home in New York City and into a remote cabin on Cape Cod, Massachusetts.

• 6:11Yvette Gentile?

  It's the perfect getaway. The cabin is at the end of a long, unpaved road in the middle of a forest, meaning almost nobody ever drives out this way. So Sebastian and his wife don't need to worry about being exposed to the virus or encountering any strangers.

• 6:30Yvette Gentile?

  But on the morning of June 16th, 2020, 58-year-old Sebastian learns there's such a thing as being a little too isolated. Because he wakes up with a horrible pain in his gut. He's never felt anything like it before. It's so bad, he can't even get out of bed and walk around. Sebastian doesn't know what's wrong, but he realizes this is a medical emergency. The problem is, he can't even get into his car, and the dirt road is muddy and flooded thanks to a recent rainstorm. All he and his wife can do is call 911 and hope that the first responders

• 7:14Yvette Gentile?

  make it to them in this remote part of the woods in time. And thank God, they do. But it ends up taking an hour and a half to get Sebastian to the hospital. And when the doctors review all of his symptoms, they tell him that an artery near his pancreas has burst. The doctors think it happened because of a genetic abnormality, but this kind of injury is rare and very, very serious. About two out of every three people who experience it, they die. And that's when the patient gets medical treatment immediately.

• 7:55Yvette Gentile?

  And Sebastian has already lost 90 whole minutes since he first called 911. So the situation is not looking good. He gets wheeled into emergency surgery, someone begins an anesthesia drip, but he was still semi-conscious for the surgery. And during that time, he looks to his left and sees something that he just can't explain.

• 8:25Rasha Pecoraro?

  It looks like a massive black hole has opened up right there in the operating room. It's a swirling dark pit and it's pulling Sebastian in closer. But Sebastian feels oddly calm. Maybe it's because the drugs are starting to kick in and he's not thinking super clearly. Or maybe he's experiencing something divine and the universe itself is telling him not to worry. But before he can get sucked inside, Sebastian senses something else. His father is floating above his bed. Which to him, of course, is very odd because his dad died eight years ago.

• 9:10Rasha Pecoraro?

  His dad tells Sebastian he doesn't have to be afraid and he shouldn't fight what's happening. He should just relax and let the pit consume him. His dad assures him it's all going to be okay and he'll be with him the entire time. Somehow, this makes the reality of the situation snap into place for Sebastian. He gets this sense that if he goes into the pit, he won't be coming out ever again. And even though he trusts his father, he still doesn't want to die. So instead of giving in, Sebastian fights.

• 9:51Rasha Pecoraro?

  He turns and he sees the doctors, the surgeons, and the nurses all still operating on him. And he yells to them that he's about to die. They need to work fast so he doesn't get sucked into the pit. And then, he falls unconscious.

• 10:10Yvette Gentile?

  The next morning Sebastian wakes up in the intensive care unit. And a nurse walks in and she says to him, "You're really lucky. You had a very near miss on the operating table and almost didn't make it out of surgery alive." Luckily, he managed to pull through and the doctors repaired the burst artery, and now he's on the road to recovery. Later that morning, Sebastian tells his wife everything he experienced. He says that his encounter with his father and the pit felt so real, and he doesn't think he was hallucinating. In fact, he suspects he may have just got a glimpse at the afterlife.

• 10:53Yvette Gentile?

  And from that day forward, his beliefs change. He begins to explore souls and ghosts and heaven and all sorts of mystical ideas that he never took seriously before. The interesting thing is, Sebastian isn't alone. Lots of people have had similar visions while they were close to death, which is why this phenomenon is called a near-death experience, or NDE for short. And believe it or not, there are actual scientists and doctors who are interested in studying NDEs to see if they're legitimate or not.

• 11:37Yvette Gentile?

  And one of the most famous is a man named Raymond Moody.

• 11:44Rasha Pecoraro?

  In 1965, Raymond wasn't a doctor yet. He was a philosophy student at the University of Virginia. That's where Raymond met a psychiatry professor, a man he found to be very welcoming, very sweet, and very pleasant to talk to. Well, one day Raymond is supposedly talking to someone about this particular professor, and his friend replies with something like, "Oh, he's an interesting person. Did you know he's been dead before?"

• 12:17Rasha Pecoraro?

  Raymond doesn't know how to respond to that. I mean, how do you, right? Apparently, his friend explains that when the professor was 20 years old, he died and came back to life. He was serving in the army and came down with double pneumonia. He spiked a fever and his body shut down. The doctors declared him dead. Supposedly, the professor had a vision of his soul going to the afterlife, then returning to Earth after about nine minutes. The professor eventually recovered from the pneumonia that had killed him, and now he had one heck of a story to tell at cocktail parties.

• 13:00Rasha Pecoraro?

  This story is so mind-blowing, it actually sticks with Raymond throughout the rest of his college years. It even influences him to change his entire career path. As soon as he graduates with his philosophy degree, Raymond continues with a master's and PhD program with a major in philosophy. And he wants to learn everything he can about life after death, and whether it's possible to go to another world and come back. Because Raymond believes his professor's story. And if he can study NDEs and learn how they work,

• 13:40Rasha Pecoraro?

  maybe he can unlock the secrets of what happens to us after we die.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  Traditional home security only alerts you after a break-in, and that's too late. SimpliSafe is changing that.

• 13:58Speaker 04

  Stop. This is SimpliSafe. Police are on the way.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  We don't just alert. We help stop crime before it starts. Plans starting around $1 a day. Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com/truecrime. SimpliSafe: Ahead of Crime in Real Time. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 14:24Speaker 05

  And I'm Britt. And if you're on the edge of your seat listening to this show, Crime Junkie needs to be your next listen.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Every Monday, I dive into a new true crime case that our reporting team has been on the ground looking into. From lesser-known disappearances to the most chilling cases hitting the headlines. And I'm gonna walk you through it the way I tell my best friend, because, well, that's what I'm doing.

• 14:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's me. And I'm right there with you as we listen together, react to every wild detail, and of course, I ask all the questions.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna have the answers, because we have case files. We're talking to detectives and family members, and we're gonna stay focused on the facts.

• 15:01Speaker 05

  So if you're not already listening to Crime Junkie, what are you waiting for? There are over 300 episodes available right now.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  And you can listen to new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 15:19Yvette Gentile?

  In 1965, a philosophy student named Raymond Moody decides he wants to study near-death experiences. His goal is to see if it's actually possible for someone to take a peek at the afterlife and come back to the other side. I have to imagine that Raymond's friends and family are stunned by his sudden obsession with NDEs, because he's never been interested in the supernatural or the occult before. He's also not particularly religious. Yeah, which is why, especially in his studies, Raymond doesn't want to rely on what religion says. He wants to do some actual research

• 16:02Yvette Gentile?

  on the phenomenon he names "near-death experiences." And yes, Raymond is the one who coined the term "NDE." He also has a bunch of doctor friends who contact him if they encounter a patient who's claimed to have an NDE. Every time Raymond hears another story, he adds the person's name and information to a list. And it doesn't take very long for him to get about 150 entries. Between 1965 and 1972, Raymond reaches out to as many of those people as he can track down. And keep in mind that Raymond is young, just shy of his 30th birthday.

• 16:47Yvette Gentile?

  And it must seem so absurd when he calls these people out of the blue and says he's studying life after death. So he focuses on 50 of them for in-depth interviews. When they meet, Raymond asks the study participants to describe what happened to them in as much detail as they can. And Raymond is shocked by what the participants say. Because the thing is, no two NDEs are identical. Everyone's experience is unique to them and their personality. However, there are certain common traits

• 17:30Yvette Gentile?

  that seem to crop up again and again.

• 17:35Rasha Pecoraro?

  For example, many people say they're conscious and in their bodies at the moment when they die. They can actually hear their doctors or nurses saying things like, "He's dead," or "We lost her." But from the patient's perspective, they're not dead. They're still able to hear and see everything that's going on around them. Then a lot of them claim to hear a noise. But nobody can agree on what it exactly sounds like. Some describe it as a buzz. Others say it sounds like a bell ringing or even a loud gust of wind. Many also see some kind of dark tunnel or passageway open up near them,

• 18:20Rasha Pecoraro?

  just like Sebastian described. Again, the descriptions aren't totally consistent, but it sounds like it might resemble a cave or some kind of tube. If the person goes through that opening, they'll suddenly find themselves outside of their bodies floating near the ceiling. Sometimes they can look back and see themselves, maybe with the doctors or nurses rushing around trying to save them. Some people say they stay in that same room for the rest of the NDE. But others say they've gone somewhere else.

• 18:58Rasha Pecoraro?

  A few have described it like a beautiful field or a white cloud. Regardless of whether they leave or stay, most accounts say this is when the person sees the spirits of their dead loved ones. Some come to meet the patient in the hospital room, others in that field or in the cloud. Some people claim to meet complete strangers, but they'll get this gut feeling that this person is an angel or some kind of guardian spirit, someone who has been watching over them, even though they've never met face to face before. And it's worth noting that these meetups are almost always positive experiences.

• 19:43Rasha Pecoraro?

  The deceased are happy to see the person who's having the NDE. They want to keep them as calm as possible and make the experience of dying seem pleasant. At this point, the subject often describes being bathed in some kind of warm, brilliant light. And this part's a little tricky to describe, but apparently, the people who see the light also perceive it as a consciousness or a person. Some go as far as to tell Raymond that the light is God or an angel or some other kind of higher being.

• 20:25Rasha Pecoraro?

  It's loving and good and peaceful, and the people who encounter it feel complete and utter peace. The light sometimes asks them questions like, "Are you ready to die now?" or "Are you happy with how you lived your life?" Whatever answer the person gives, the next step is something Raymond likes to call "the review."

• 20:53Yvette Gentile?

  And it's not entirely clear how many people get a review, or if it always comes after meeting the light. But from what we can tell, it's like that old cliche which says that, "Before you die, your life flashes before your eyes." For people who have NDEs, the review is a time when their entire life plays out in incredibly vivid detail. Not only do they supposedly see everything they've ever done, and hear everything they've ever said, they also feel each emotion associated with the memory. It all goes by very quickly, like it's playing on fast-forward.

• 21:38Yvette Gentile?

  But the person is still able to take it all in. Then, once the review is done, the light will often ask the person another question. Like, are they ready to leave their old life behind? And spend an eternity in bliss? Many of the people Raymond talked to said their answer was no. He never specifies how many of his subjects were asked the question. But we know as soon as they said they wanted to live, they zipped back down the tunnel into their physical bodies. And then they were alive again. Like it was their choice, their will, to keep living.

• 22:21Yvette Gentile?

  Except Raymond also hears from a few people who say they were ready to let go and die for good. However, when they told the light that, the entity replied, "It wasn't their time. There was more they needed to do in this life." Then they were also sent back to Earth. And after that, they find themselves alive and in their bodies, with memories of that other plane.

• 22:52Rasha Pecoraro?

  So as you can imagine, Raymond's astonished by how many people had such similar experiences. It seems impossible for this all just to be a hallucination. Because what are the odds that dozens of people who've never spoken to one another before all imagined these very specific events happening in this very specific order? It seems almost impossible. So after talking to his subjects, Raymond publishes his findings in 1975. And he writes that NDEs are real. It's possible to die and come back.

• 23:36Rasha Pecoraro?

  And thanks to the people who've done it, we have a sense of what the afterlife has in store for us.

• 23:44Yvette Gentile?

  The problem is, some people say his studies aren't scientific. You know, there are always the naysayers. And mainly because NDEs can't be quantified or replicated in laboratory settings. Others say the problem is one of bias. Raymond wants to believe in an afterlife and wants proof that we continue to exist after we die.

• 24:11Rasha Pecoraro?

  Don't we all?

• 24:13Yvette Gentile?

  Yes, absolutely. But maybe he wanted this reassurance so badly, he focused on the stories that confirmed NDEs are real. And then supposedly ignored the data that didn't fit with those conclusions.

• 24:30Rasha Pecoraro?

  Raymond, of course, denies this. He insists that his data is solid. But his studies remain very controversial even to this day. And there are a lot of people who figure that NDEs are all vivid dreams or hallucinations. But if that's true, it means there are a ton of people sharing this highly specific hallucination. Because NDE experiences are surprisingly common. Some estimates say that roughly 15% of all ICU patients will experience one NDE during their treatment.

• 25:14Rasha Pecoraro?

  But I have to say, a bright light, a warm field, and a reunion with a long-lost loved one, especially if it happened to us, to me and Yvette, and it was our mom, that sounds pretty nice. Except not all NDEs were described that beautifully.

• 25:36Yvette Gentile?

  Well, interestingly enough, some people come back from the great beyond convinced that they paid a visit to hell. In fact, it's estimated that as many as 20% of NDEs involve people going to a horrible afterlife. And we do know of one person who came forward with a dark NDE story to share. His name is Howard Storm. Howard was a 38-year-old American art professor, and like Sebastian and Raymond, he didn't believe in God or the afterlife before this. But in the summer of 1985, he was touring Europe with a group of students from his university.

• 26:20Yvette Gentile?

  And overall, the trip seemed to be going well. They hit a lot of cities, checked out plenty of museums and architecture. Their last stop was in Paris. Come June, Howard and his group were in France with less than 24 hours before they were supposed to fly home to the United States. Howard was in his hotel room with his wife, who's been with him for the entire trip, and that's when this sudden illness came over him. It started as a stomach ache, and he assumed he ate something he shouldn't have. And then in the late evening, he got these sharp pains in his gut, almost like someone just shot him in the torso.

• 27:03Yvette Gentile?

  And finally, he just collapsed. An ambulance rushed him to the hospital, and that's where Howard had a near-death experience.

• 27:14Rasha Pecoraro?

  But his NDE wasn't like any of the other ones we've discussed thus far. Howard finds himself standing next to his hospital bed. He has no memory of waking up or getting out of bed. He's just suddenly there. He looks down and he sees something lying on the mattress, covered in a sheet. When Howard lifts the sheet, he sees his own dead body. It sounds like something out of a horror movie that I absolutely could not watch. And sure enough, Howard is terrified. That's when he hears voices calling to him from somewhere in the hallway.

• 27:58Rasha Pecoraro?

  They're saying, "Howard, Howard, come out here. Let's go, hurry up, we've been waiting for you." Howard knows these aren't his doctor's voices because they're speaking with perfect American accents. And he certainly doesn't recognize them as belonging to his wife or any of his students. In fact, Howard has this gut feeling that tells him not to trust the voices. He thinks they want to hurt him for some reason. The problem is, he doesn't know what else to do. He can't stand around in his hospital room forever. So he walks out into the hallway.

• 28:41Rasha Pecoraro?

  And he sees a group of men and women waiting for him. They have pale skin and they're wearing gray clothing. And there's some kind of cloud or smoke surrounding them. Howard takes a step toward the group, and they take one step backward. He strides forward again, and they back up. No matter how fast he walks, he can never get closer to the people because they're always moving backward at the same pace that he's moving forward. But as he walks, Howard finds himself going deeper into that fog. The further he goes, the darker and thicker it gets.

• 29:24Rasha Pecoraro?

  Until he can't even see the hospital or the group of people surrounding him anymore. It's like he stepped into an endless black void.

• 29:35Rasha Pecoraro?

  And he's not alone there. He's surrounded by monsters. It's too dark for him to see anything, so he doesn't know what the monsters look like. But he can hear them growling and hissing, and the sounds are very close to him, almost like they could reach out and touch him if they wanted to. Howard also realizes the creatures used to be human beings, but something happened that made them evil. In fact, one of the creatures reaches out to pinch him, and then another scratches him. They keep doing this, poking, grabbing, and slashing at his skin,

• 30:19Rasha Pecoraro?

  and it hurts. Howard starts swatting these creatures' arms away and trying to defend himself, but there are so many attackers and only one of him, and he's completely surrounded. By this time, Howard is beyond terrified. But when he lets his fear show on his face, the creatures laugh at him, almost like they're enjoying torturing him. Then, one of the entities reaches forward and rips off a chunk of Howard's flesh, and he hears howling laughter. The monsters leap at him, knock him to the ground,

• 31:00Rasha Pecoraro?

  and begin pummeling him and trying to literally tear him apart. While he's lying there, Howard hears a voice speaking to him. It says that he should ask God for help, and that is exactly what he does. Howard's so desperate to get away from this horrible place, he's willing to do anything. So he recites every prayer he knows, which isn't many at all, because as we know, he's not very religious. So he throws in the Pledge of Allegiance and the Star-Spangled Banner for good measure. And guess what? It works. The monsters don't bother him anymore,

• 31:43Rasha Pecoraro?

  but Howard is still trapped in the dark void with no idea of how to get back to the hospital.

• 31:50Yvette Gentile?

  He's not sure how long he lies there for, but eventually he sees a tiny speck of light in the distance. It gets closer and closer, and then its warm glow completely washes over him. Howard finds himself bathed in this feeling of pure love, warmth, and acceptance. He senses that he's in God's presence. And from there, Howard's vision plays out just like the others that Raymond documented. He and the light rise up into the heavens and Howard sees his life review.

• 32:33Yvette Gentile?

  Afterwards, God even tells Howard he can ask any question he wants and get the answers. So Howard asks the big ones: What's the meaning of life? Which religion is correct? And of course, my all-time personal favorite: Has Jesus ever visited aliens on another planet? Of course, that's your favorite. The light tells him the meaning of life is to love God. All religions are valid as long as they bring you closer to God. And of course, Jesus has met all of the universe's alien species. And once they're done talking, Howard actually feels ready to spend an eternity in heaven.

• 33:18Yvette Gentile?

  But the being of light says it's not his time yet. He still has work to finish on earth.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Traditional home security only alerts you after a break-in, and that's too late. SimpliSafe is changing that.

• 33:36Speaker 04

  Stop. This is SimpliSafe. Police are on the way.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  We don't just alert. We help stop crime before it starts. Plans starting around a dollar a day. Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com/truecrime. SimpliSafe: Ahead of Crime in Real Time.

• 33:54Speaker 06

  Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 34:03Speaker 05

  And I'm Britt. And if you're on the edge of your seat listening to this show, Crime Junkie needs to be your next listen.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Every Monday, I dive into a new true crime case that our reporting team has been on the ground looking into. From lesser-known disappearances to the most chilling cases hitting the headlines. And I'm gonna walk you through it the way I tell my best friend, because, well, that's what I'm doing.

• 34:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's me. And I'm right there with you as we listen together, react to every wild detail, and of course, I ask all the questions.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna have the answers, because we have case files. We're talking to detectives and family members, and we're gonna stay focused on the facts.

• 34:39Speaker 05

  So if you're not already listening to Crime Junkie, what are you waiting for? There are over 300 episodes available right now.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  And you can listen to new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:57Rasha Pecoraro?

  In 1985, American art professor Howard Storm had a near-death experience. It began with him being tortured in a place that felt to him like it was hell. But eventually, a bright, warm light rescued him. After a long conversation about philosophy, it told him it was time for him to go back to his former life again. Except Howard is not happy to hear this. He wants to stay and enjoy eternal bliss. He thinks it might be his time, but unfortunately, that's not his call to make. So an instant later, Howard wakes up in his hospital bed.

• 35:41Rasha Pecoraro?

  He believes he had a near-death experience, but instead of going straight to heaven, he thinks he took a detour to hell first. Now that Howard has met the being of light face to face, and realizes just how wonderful the afterlife is, he resolves to become the best person he can possibly be. And he'll spend the rest of his life serving God. Once Howard recovers, he quits his job as an art professor and enrolls in a divinity school so he can become an ordained minister. To be clear, Howard never saw himself as evil, but he knows he has flaws,

• 36:26Rasha Pecoraro?

  like a bad temper and a tendency to drink more than he should. And worst of all, he's been very focused on seeking praise, validation, and other people's approval, all at the cost of his own self-esteem and well-being. Now, he avoids alcohol entirely. He finds a way to manage his anger in a more productive way, and he tries not to care what other people think of him. Howard is confident that as long as he's trying to live a good Christian life, God will let him come back to heaven when he dies for good. But there are lots of other people who've had similarly frightening NDEs,

• 37:09Rasha Pecoraro?

  and they don't all become devout Christians like Howard. So I have to wonder, as someone who is not a member of any organized religion, what role does religion play in near-death experiences?

• 37:24Yvette Gentile?

  Well, in 2014, two scientists hope to find out: Nancy Bush and Bruce Grayson. Nancy is a near-death experiences expert, and Bruce is a former University of Virginia professor of psychiatry and neural behavioral sciences.

• 37:42Yvette Gentile?

  They collect a bunch of statements from people who've had negative NDEs that featured visits to horrible and terrifying afterlives. And some of these people had experiences like Howard's, where demons actually tortured them. And others just found themselves in cold, dark voids, where they were overwhelmed with feelings of loneliness. But Nancy and Bruce discover there's no correlation between how you live your life and where you end up. There are some truly horrible people, including violent criminals, who have positive NDEs where they actually go to heaven. Like, who'd have thunk?

• 38:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  Apparently, one former mobster came forward about his NDE. He didn't want his identity to become public for obvious reasons, so we're just gonna call him Joe for simplicity. Joe worked as a bagman for the mob, meaning if someone owed money to his employers, Joe's job was to get it by any means necessary. He was also a pimp who'd been very cruel to the sex workers he employed. But that all changed when Joe had a severe heart attack. I'm not sure exactly how old he was at the time, but I know it was bad enough that Joe apparently died.

• 39:11Rasha Pecoraro?

  That's when he had a near-death experience, but not like Howard's. He said he went to heaven, saw the spirit of his departed brother, and found himself bathed in a warm, loving light. When Joe came back to life, he was so moved by his experience that he decided to change everything. He left his life of crime behind, started volunteering for charity, and made an effort to be kind to every person he met from then on.

• 39:49Yvette Gentile?

  On top of that, it doesn't seem to matter if you're an atheist or a member of any faith tradition. Nancy and Bruce found no correlation between any particular religion and any specific destination in the NDEs. So you've got to wonder, why would bad people get eternal rewards? While good people were doomed to be tortured by demons? It sure doesn't sound fair, which is why skeptics say near-death experiences can't be a real window into the afterlife. Instead, many think the phenomenon can be completely explained away with biology. So you see, scientists know

• 40:33Yvette Gentile?

  that when people die, their brains release a ton of chemicals and endorphins. This includes serotonin, the stuff that makes you feel happy. People are in search of this stuff. Let me just tell y'all. All the time. All the time. A dying person's serotonin levels may rise 20 times higher than your average healthy person's. So maybe those feelings of peace and acceptance that happen during NDEs are just the result of a neural-chemical reaction. In fact, scientists have learned that you can trigger NDE-like experiences in perfectly healthy people by giving them a mixture of psychedelic drugs,

• 41:18Yvette Gentile?

  including LSD and ayahuasca, both of which have shown to increase a person's serotonin levels. In one study, researchers dosed 13 patients with an active compound in ayahuasca called DMT. Afterwards, they filled out a form where they described their experiences under the drug's influence. Every single one of those 13 people said that they saw a bright light, experienced a life review, or went through some other experience that's usually associated with NDEs.

• 41:56Yvette Gentile?

  Now, obviously, people like Howard Storm and Sebastian Younger didn't take ayahuasca during their medical emergencies. But as they got closer to death, their brains released all of those endorphins. Possibly, it might have triggered a reaction that's very similar to what happens when you're on ayahuasca or DMT.

• 42:19Rasha Pecoraro?

  But remember what we mentioned before. When Raymond Moody did his research on near-death experiences, he was completely shook by how consistent and similar his patients' descriptions were. He figured if they were all hallucinating, like one would on drugs, their hallucinations would all be different from one another. So you'd think NDEs were something more than a delusion if they're so consistent. After all, people usually don't report having the same trip on drugs, even when they do drugs together.

• 42:58Yvette Gentile?

  Well, there was a big problem with Raymond's early study, and it's that he only talked to Americans who were born and raised in predominantly Christian cultures, mainly because he was relying on personal referrals. Later studies show that if a Christian or someone who grew up in a predominantly Christian culture had an NDE, they usually described Kevin as "looking like what a Christian would expect." You know, clouds, angels, and harps and halos, and that sort of thing. And for instance, when Hindus had a near-death experience, they described an afterlife that fit more with Hindu beliefs.

• 43:41Yvette Gentile?

  Buddhists tended to perceive Buddhist imagery, Jewish people saw traditional Jewish afterlife, and so on.

• 43:48Rasha Pecoraro?

  That theory can make NDEs seem a bit less mystical. But there are some things that just can't be explained. For example, some people come back from NDEs and know things that they shouldn't, like conversations that happened in other rooms while they were supposedly brain-dead, or details about the treatments that their doctors tried while they were allegedly entering the afterlife. Take this story from a woman named Holly. Over 50 years ago, she tried to take her own life. She was rushed to the emergency room where doctors were able to get her stable again.

• 44:33Rasha Pecoraro?

  Once she wasn't in danger anymore, the hospital called in Bruce Grayson to give her a mental health evaluation. As in, the same Bruce Grayson who conducted that study on NDEs with Nancy Bush, where people said they went to hell. But at this point in time, Bruce was very early in his career, way before he ever met Nancy. He'd never given near-death experiences any serious thought before. All he knew was that one minute, he was eating a delicious spaghetti dinner, and the next minute, he got a call that he needed to rush over to see a patient. He left without finishing his meal and headed straight to the hospital.

• 45:17Rasha Pecoraro?

  Then, when he arrived, he saw that there was still marinara sauce that was splashed on his tie. Bruce buttoned his lab coat over the stain on his tie before actually meeting Holly. But when they talked, she said she'd seen him before, during her near-death experience. And to prove this was a true vision, Holly told Bruce, quote, "You had a red stain on your tie." Now, there is no way Holly would have seen Bruce's dirty tie while she was recovering from her suicide attempt. All Bruce could think was that she really had experienced something otherworldly.

• 46:02Rasha Pecoraro?

  And there are a ton of stories like this. Like one patient who somehow knew the doctors in the next room were performing an amputation, something he couldn't possibly have guessed. Or a woman who had a vision of herself leaving her body and floating above the hospital, only to accurately predict later that someone had mysteriously left a tennis shoe on a ledge of the facility's third floor.

• 46:32Yvette Gentile?

  All of these stories are beyond compelling. And while we still don't have any way of proving with 100% certainty that near-death experiences are real, I choose to believe that this life is not our last. There's something that is very comforting in the idea that our story doesn't end here, that this might just be a chapter in a very long novel, that there may be worlds waiting for us where we can reunite with loved ones, pets, friends, families, siblings, with our parents,

• 47:14Yvette Gentile?

  where the questions we have, they no longer matter, where grudges and pain are released, where light and love take precedence over everything else. That is the world I want to live in. And it's nice knowing that if it doesn't come in this particular life, it very well may come in the next.

• 47:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  But before we sign off today, Ashley's back to share something special with all of you.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  I just want to say a quick thank you to all the listeners, truly, for being so loyal to this show over the years. This has been a passion project of mine since the beginning, and I really would not have been able to continue it without the help of Rasha and Yvette. You welcomed them into this weird, wonderful world with open arms, and now it is their turn to carry the torch alone. The time has come for me to take another step back and officially place the show in their very capable hands. 2026 will be a whole new, exciting chapter filled with more mysteries, legends, and stories just waiting to be uncovered. And trust me, with Rasha and Yvette as your guides, you are in for an unforgettable ride.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  In the meantime, keep believing, keep the magic alive, and as always, keep things so supernatural.

• 48:48Rasha Pecoraro?

  This is So Supernatural, an AudioChuck original, produced by Crime House. You can connect with us on Instagram at So Supernatural Pod and visit our website at SoSupernaturalPodcast.com. Join Yvette and me next Friday for an all-new episode.

• 49:09Rasha Pecoraro?

  I think Chuck would approve.

• 49:14Speaker 07

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir, and that can only mean one thing: Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful: you never know what might follow you home. So gather round, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.