70. Braverman, Brazil, and Hancock in the jungle

Rory and Alastair discuss Suella Braverman's return to the front bench, the significance of security breaches in ministerial positions, and why Tony Blair never had a phone during his time as Prime Minister... Plus debates about the response to asylum seekers in the UK, Lula's success in Brazil's election, Rory's insider knowledge of Rishi Sunak's new cabinet, and Matt Hancock agreeing to participate in I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here. Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creve and of course the thing flashed up saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN and it was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/rustaspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/rustaspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:43Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome to another episode of The Rest is Politics with me, Alastair Campbell. And I'm going to do the next bit as well because you're going to find out that the other me, Rory Stewart, has a very, very, very bad voice. So Rory, say hello.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Hello, guys. Great to speak to you all.

• 2:01Alastair Campbell?

  But you're not very well.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. I mean, I think it makes me sound kind of sexy, doesn't it?

• 2:08Alastair Campbell?

  No.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:11Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, I think it's more sort of warthog, really.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Grumbling warthog, yeah.

• 2:18Alastair Campbell?

  Now, listen, I guess what it means is that I should probably do most of the the heavy lifting here, but I don't want to cut you out too much.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  This is your your big chance to do a kind of big rant about Eton and austerity and I won't be able to respond.

• 2:31Alastair Campbell?

  Can I throw the Northern Ireland Protocol as well?

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Get that in, get that in.

• 2:35Alastair Campbell?

  Well, no, there's a lot, there is a lot to talk about, but I think we should first of all do a little bit of rebuttal. I was very, when you said last week that you were saying that Rishi Sunak had only been an MP for seven years and Keir Starmer came in in 2010, I thought, is that right? Because in fact, it's amazing, Keir Starmer also came in 2015.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Goodness.

• 2:56Alastair Campbell?

  Isn't it?

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Amazing, isn't it? So that's a sort of, I think, sort of proves the point double over, doesn't it?

• 3:01Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Because even somebody like Keir Starmer, who I see as quite an established politician, by in historical standards, has barely been there at all.

• 3:09Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, to to become the leader of a party was usually a pretty, pretty long slog.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  And people like Tony Blair and David Cameron seem very much the exceptions in getting there quite quickly. But I guess even Tony Blair didn't get there that quickly, did he? How long was it?

• 3:24Alastair Campbell?

  He was, he was, he was an MP for quite a long time and he worked his way up through the shadow cabinet, employment, then Home Office. And, and of course, if John Smith hadn't died when he did, then Tony would have, you know, carried on, probably still being in Gordon Brown's shadow for a few more years.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 3:40Alastair Campbell?

  The other bit of rebuttal, Fiona ticked me off because she says, I asked you the wrong question about the crown or diamond. It wasn't whether we should give it back to India, it was whether Camilla should wear it in her crowd.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Ah, right, I think the answer is probably just as well. I mean, none of my business, but I would have thought that she'd probably be tempted not to.

• 4:03Alastair Campbell?

  Because of the diplomatic niceties.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and and I, my sense is that she may not actually be very interested in wearing bling diamonds in the crown anyway.

• 4:11Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, and the third piece of rebuttal, again, I'm afraid, from Fiona, is that she wasn't happy with you decrying Powys Castle, because you were saying that Powys Castle has these very simplified slogans about the history that it represents. So she's been scouring their website, and she says they've actually got a very balanced and deep history, and she's now insisting that we go there.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Well, we should definitely get it together. I think the way to get the compromise with Fiona is to say that they're doing a better job, and they're adjusting better now. But the origins of this fight came out of pretty simple signage. And I think the National Trust is now making a much better effort to balance these stories and make more interesting complicated stories.

• 4:57Alastair Campbell?

  Good. And I'll let Fiona be a better judge of whether your voice is sexy when croaky. But I do, Rory, honestly, just, I can see you, the listeners can't see you, I can see you. If it really does start to get painful and torture us to do this, you just put your hand up and we can find another...

• 5:18Speaker 02

  A little shout out, though, for my great hero Theresa May, who famously, basically, almost blew up her career by losing her voice. Do you remember that?

• 5:25Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, I do. That speech, I mean, that is my idea of absolute terror that we used to go through with Tony Blair's conference speech, of making sure he didn't get a cold. Because I actually think the public, they're quite tolerant of politicians, but I don't think they like it when they're ill. And to have a big speech, like the conference speech, as you know, is so important for a party leader. And I did feel very, very sorry for Theresa May. The only time Tony, Tony was ill a couple of times doing big speeches, but he sort of managed to get it up and at least get his voice in good nick, because that's the most important thing.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So just to remind, remind what I like to call our readers, it was March the 12th, 2019, she was making a very big Brexit speech. In the House of Commons. And she she lost her voice halfway through that speech at the most important moment of trying to get that through.

• 6:19Alastair Campbell?

  And lots of lots of suggestion that it might have been psychosomatic, but it looked to me to be very, very physical. The voice had literally just just gone. Now, let's talk about another conservative politician who didn't lose her voice in her rare appearance in the House of Commons yesterday, and that's another Conservative Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, who finally deigned to appear in the Commons. Two things on the agenda, she wanted to talk very much about Manston, the asylum processing centre in Kent, which is currently housing 4,000 people, when it's built for 1,600, and even for the 1,600, I don't think it's very comfortable, it's certainly not meant to be.

• 7:01Alastair Campbell?

  But also, of course, under attack because of her use of her private email account to be shipping out often sensitive and confidential documents to people who shouldn't be seeing them, which of course is what led to her resignation six days before being reinstated by by Rishi Sunak. So I don't know whether you caught any of Suella Braverman's performance yesterday, Rory.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  I just caught little bits on Twitter, but what was your sense of the whole thing?

• 7:26Alastair Campbell?

  My sense of it was that she was very, very robust. She was basically going into that crouch position of anybody who comes at me, I'll have a go. She was playing the martyr, you know, people are out to get me, but I'll show them kind of thing. There was something a little bit sort of playgroundy about the whole thing, I found. I didn't think she answered the questions, either on Manston or on when Yvette Cooper challenged her over her use of her private email. And I also got the feeling, I could be wrong, but I got the feeling that on the back benches there was, you sensed that even though the whips had done a good job getting the right people to ask the questions, they weren't exactly rallying to her support.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Well, that's a very interesting question, isn't it? Because I guess she is gambling, probably with some reason, that there is a percentage of the British population that is very angry about migrants coming to Britain in small boats. And that at the same time as people like you and me are outraged and disgusted by the idea of shipping people to Rwanda, and horrified by the conditions in the Manston Refugee Centre, and feeling that she's being uncaring and potentially even breaking certainly guidance, potentially even the law. On the way she's proceeding, there will be many other people listening to her who will be thinking she's on the right side of this and they like to hear tough language about migrants.

• 8:42Alastair Campbell?

  I think, I mean, I get that to a point. The only problem I think she's got with that is that we've heard it for years from her predecessors. You mentioned Rwanda, she didn't mention Rwanda. I don't think in the entire thing, the bits that I saw, certainly her statement, and I stayed with it for about 20 minutes thereafter. I don't think anybody mentioned Rwanda, it was almost like that was just a stunt that was back then and now they're on to something different. So the rhetoric was very, very strong. I think it was very, very deliberate that she used the word about as being invaded because she knew that that would upset some people and people would be talking about that rather than the fact that she's failing so badly on the policy. But I think to have a Home Secretary who's been there, part of a government, a ruling

• 9:25Alastair Campbell?

  party that's been there for 12 years, and she literally used the words, "The system is broken", then, you know, and Labour MPs are just sort of sitting there shouting, "Well, who broke it?" Everybody accepts that it's a difficult, that it is a genuinely difficult problem and it's a problem that governments around the world are dealing with, but we've got this particularly unique problem because of the sea there. But I did look up, by the way, she talked about invasion, I looked up the countries that have got the most refugees. Do you want to have a guess it's at the top in the world?

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Well, the people who are usually most welcoming to refugees are either African countries welcoming their neighbours, or places like Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey welcoming their neighbours. The Ugandans are particularly generous, for example.

• 10:10Alastair Campbell?

  Well, you've done pretty well there, you've got number one and number five. Number one is Turkey, 3.7 million. Number two is Colombia, 2.5 million. I'm guessing that's from neighbouring countries. Germany, 2.2 million. Germany, far and away the most welcoming of the European countries, then Pakistan and then Uganda. And Britain in terms of accepting asylum seekers, we are pretty low down the international table.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  And we are, and it's something we've discussed in the past, Anister, but I think it's really important. What I would think we need to bring together is an international refugee coalition where countries commit to take a certain percentage of their population every year in refugees and burden share it. So get the Europeans, the UK, the United States together and do what was done at the end of the crisis, the Vietnam boat people at the end of the Vietnam War, which is to have a predictable system where each country undertakes to take a certain number of people. And I think that's very doable. And I think the current system is dangerous,

• 11:18Speaker 02

  unfair, unpredictable, unjust. And I really would call on Rishi Sunak to take this opportunity to chair a global meeting where we get all countries to sign up to a target of the number of people they're prepared to take as refugees.

• 11:33Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, I think that sounds like a great idea for a world that felt very different to the world as it is now, because we're, you know, if you, okay, we'll no doubt talk about the election in Brazil, but you look at people like Bolsonaro, you look at the state of politics in America with Trump still so dominant within that debate, you look at populism in some of the countries in Europe as well. I just, I worry about who would police that, who would, who would run that. You'd expect the United Nations to be able to step up and do, but the United Nations seems, it's not powerless in these circumstances, but it's not getting a grip in the way that you're suggesting.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  And it's a very odd, the global system. So I would propose that we sign up to a target of 0.05% of our population every year, which in the case of Britain might be, you know, by its own C D in terms of additional asylum seekers, might be 40,000 people a year. And Canada's already well above that. Biden's United States is well above that. But there are real exceptions. Japan, for example, takes basically none at all. In fact, most of Asia takes almost none at all. The extraordinary statistics, places like Sweden and Luxembourg combined take more than the combined populations of countries with 3 billion people in them. So there's an extraordinary discrepancy between those countries that you named and some of the most generous European countries. And yet

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Japan has got this reputation for being one of the world's leading countries when it comes to external aid.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  They're very generous on external aid, but incredibly anti-immigration. And they're also the country whose passport is welcomed in the most countries in the world without any visas. If you're a Japanese citizen with a Japanese passport, you can land almost anywhere with no checks or visas. And one thing, though, I wanted just to stop on very, very quickly, is to try to think about what we could do in relation to these migrant boat movements. Because the statistics are amazing. So for people who aren't based in the United Kingdom, the BBC suggests that in 2018, there were barely any people crossing at all. In 2019, it looks like from the graph, there are maybe about 1,000. By 2020, it was beginning to creep towards 9,000 a year.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  By 2021, it had leapt to almost 30,000 a year. And by this time in 2022, we're crossing 40,000 migrants a year, crossing in small boats. And most of them come, as I think you mentioned on the podcast before, from Albania at the moment with Afghanistan and then Iran and Iraq behind that.

• 14:05Alastair Campbell?

  I think what's happened is that what seemed like an incredibly dangerous and difficult crossing with an unsure outcome for those who were taking it, has become a very heavily marketed route. We talked to Eddie Rahm, the Albanian Prime Minister, about it, if you remember, when we did the podcast interview with him. And he, you know, I'm not being overly critical here, but it struck me that he didn't, he didn't know all of the answers because he couldn't, he couldn't establish where, this sounds odd, but where all these Albanians were coming from. Because the figures of the Albanians crossing the channel were bearing no relation to the figures of the Albanians who were leaving Albania.

• 14:48Alastair Campbell?

  So these were people of Albanian heritage who were living already in different parts of Europe or were coming through Europe. And then, for whatever reason, were paying considerable sums of money to be shipped to Britain.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  This is one of the things that is difficult about this, of course, because more than three quarters of the people crossing seem to be young men, according to this BBC article that I've, that I've been reading. And of course, they are by definition, people who've made it to safety in France. So there is a strong argument that I would try to make that a fairer international system would involve Britain committing to taking, let's say it's 40,000 people, but targeting places like female judges trapped in Afghanistan, rather than young men who are already safe in France and want to make that final hop across.

• 15:43Alastair Campbell?

  Well, the other point to make is they were safe in Albania. You know, that's, that's the, I do, I also do think that, I mean, I have been thinking deeply about the question we had on the Q and A from David Harvey last week about my inability to get through an episode without talking about Brexit. But I think Brexit has complicated the arrangements for sending them back to the country in the European Union in which they first landed, because that was part of the arrangements that existed when we were inside the European Union. But I don't minimise the problem. The other impression I had-

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Sorry, Alison, can I very quickly correct myself? I'm sorry. The BBC article points out that 75% of them are men, but they're mostly men between 18 and 39.

• 16:32Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Yeah. The other impression I got from Suella Braverman, which I think, I understand why she sort of felt she was back against the wall, she was going to go out fighting. I actually think she should have been far more emollient and far more cooperative with Labour, because she just, she yet again just tried to turn the whole thing into an attack line. She basically said, Labour wants all of them to come in, Labour wants to put them all up in five-star hotels, was the kind of, the impression that she was, that she was trying to create, and turning into yet another kind of polarising divide. I think after 12 years, when you think we've had the hostile environment, we had Theresa

• 17:13Alastair Campbell?

  May doing some pretty unpleasant stuff to, to create that sense of the hostile environment, we had Priti Patel trying all sorts of things, and the new asylum and immigrant nationality bill. And I think that there comes a point where a Home Secretary, I just think has to step, realise that this is a really, really difficult problem, and people will, I think, give her quite a lot of sympathy if she tries to deal with it in a serious grown-up way. I think the minute that you try and turn it into just another polarising political football- I think you you lose the argument.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Well, the the key thing presumably is getting the relationship right with France.

• 17:53Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  And I think that's where Rishi Sunak has been making some much more positive noises. I mean, he's changed that rhetoric, which we were complaining about, you were complaining about, particularly of Liz Truss saying she wasn't sure. The jury was out and whether Macron was a friend towards much warmer language towards France. But clearly, the only way really to solve this is with the consent of the French authorities, because at the moment, relationships between Britain and France have broken down so much that the French police are simply turning a blind eye to people getting in boats from the French coast.

• 18:24Alastair Campbell?

  Although Suella Braverman yesterday and Robert Jenrick today were giving quite a lot of data about boat journeys that the French have stopped. So I think you're right, that I think there is, they're trying to at least warm up the rhetoric, if not the the reality of the relationship between the two. What do you make of the other point at which Suella Braverman has been in a lot of trouble? And that's this whole business about her communications and her private communications and the whether she can actually be trusted with sensitive information.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  I I think there's a real problem. I mean, I think she's indicative of a much bigger problem, which is how loose government security is in general. It's absolutely extraordinary that, when I was a cabinet minister, looking back on it, I was allowed to keep my phone through that period. We now know that Pegasus and these other programs are able to access people's phones very, very easily. This was originally, I think, a company that had very strong links into Israel, technology that was sold around the world, was used to spy on Catalan independence leaders. It appears Liz Truss's phone, which was the other story here, as Foreign Secretary, was compromised. I remember going into a meeting when I was on the Defence Committee, a meeting in the

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Middle East with a Gulf state, and handing over my phone. And when I got it back, the battery was draining in about half an hour because they put so much spyware onto the phone. Projecting in every direction. So I do think it's extraordinary. I mean, proper grown up procedures from any serious security minded people would have involved all ministers having their personal phones removed when they became ministers, being given properly checked telephones and very, very serious security training, which we never received. I was as a as a privy councillor, you'll remember that, you know, we are shown secret documents. I was in a slightly different position because I'd been a civil servant, I'd been in the Foreign Office, so I had some sense of the classification of these

• 20:22Speaker 02

  documents. But I don't remember any proper training, serious conversations about what these classifications meant, what you could share, what you could say, what you couldn't. And I think Swala Braverman, she was sharing something called a written ministerial statement and claims that what she was trying to do was share it with someone in her parliamentary office. So a written ministerial statement is not one of the most secret things in the world, but it's certainly a big, big breach of the ministerial code. And I think the Cabinet Secretary was right to call it out. But there's a much bigger problem there, which we're not beginning to deal with.

• 20:51Alastair Campbell?

  No, I agree. And also, I don't think it was that much better in my day. I do remember getting a sort of briefing, but it really boiled down to, you know, be very careful what you're talking, what you're saying on the phone. And it basically assumed that somebody's listening that you probably wouldn't want to be listening. And likewise, I think as emails started to to come on stream, there was much more, there were just sort of the occasional warning. And certainly, there were some countries we went to when we came back, that somebody would come in and and take your phone away and then come back and what have you. I do remember one once in Moscow, I don't know if you've been to the British Embassy in Moscow, and there's a there's a part of the embassy that they sort

• 21:35Alastair Campbell?

  of say is absolutely 100% secure, and you can have an absolutely full and frank conversation in there, to which, you know, the obvious rejoinder is, oh, does that mean the rest of the building is completely? Unsafe, but of course, you know, they sort of shrugged their shoulders and say, well, yeah, probably. So, but I, I, I think that the, the other thing I would say about this, I mean, I can remember when you always used to see, even when he was prime minister, seeing Johnson wander around, there are lots of pictures of him just on his mobile phone. And he was basically, that, that was like basically an open invitation to security services around the world to say, you know, come and get me. And I don't, I don't think we're being particularly clever about this, but I think it is at least worth reminding people that Tony Blair, when he was prime minister, literally for the 10 years he was prime minister, did not have a mobile phone. And that was because we

• 22:20Alastair Campbell?

  assumed if he did, he would be targeted.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  And it's extraordinary how it's not just UK politicians. Remember the, there's very good evidence from WikiLeaks that the US government was spying on German politicians through their telephones.

• 22:34Alastair Campbell?

  Angela Merkel, she raised it, she raised it with the president.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Listening to Angela Merkel's phone. Also, remember Hillary Clinton got in big trouble for using Gmail to send messages.

• 22:45Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm. I see that the COVID inquiry is inquiring after Mr. Johnson's WhatsApp messages. That'll be interesting.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, there's been extraordinary things. I don't know whether you follow this. Every time they ask for these messages, it doesn't matter whether it's Colleen or whether it's Boris Johnson or any of these people, they, everyone claims they've lost their phone or accidentally deleted their WhatsApp messages. Or there was a particularly grisly man, I don't know whether you remember, he was an MP, who was called Mike Hancock, not Matt Hancock.

• 23:13Alastair Campbell?

  I remember Mike, a Liberal Democrat.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, Liberal Democrat. Yeah. So he was famous for a number of things. Famous that when he was on the Defence Committee, he managed to employ a young Russian lady who he was sleeping with, who managed to access information from the Defence Committee. But also that he had become a great champion of the cause of, I think it was the, yeah, it was the Azerbaijani government, he became very close to it. And would go on, would go out and say their elections were perfect before the polls had even reported. And he did, he was so popular with the Russian Embassy that they would put out amazing sort of tweets praising him for being the only balanced man in British politics. So there was a question of how many trips he'd made to Russia, and he claimed not to know.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  So then somebody asked to see his phone and he claimed to have dropped it off the side of the boat on the way back to Britain.

• 24:02Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that's because he was worried that if he was, if he'd said the wrong thing, it'd have been dropped off the side of the bridge.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Oh, sorry, sorry. It was his passport he dropped. He dropped the passport off the side so you couldn't see the visa stamps. I think it was, I think it was, I think it was, I think it was Rebecca Vardy dropped her telephone off the side.

• 24:19Alastair Campbell?

  Rory, you're, you're, that's Colleen and, Colleen Rooney and Rebecca Vardy. Your cultural references are no bounds. Now, listen, you mentioned, you know, you mentioned Mike Hancock, which brings me to the subject. I think we should very, very, very briefly dispense with Matt Hancock. I mean, I will never forget when Dylan Jones, who was editor of GQ magazine, and I used to do a monthly interview for GQ magazine, and he asked me to interview Matt Hancock on the basis that he, Dylan, had heard, probably from George Osborne, that Matt Hancock was definitely future Tory leadership material. On this

• 25:00Alastair Campbell?

  basis, I interviewed Matt Hancock for GQ magazine. And, I mean, he's a bit of a twat. Let's just cut to the chase here, isn't he? He's just a bit of a twat. And I think that, you know, we saw a lot of him during Covid, and we saw a lot of his self-regard, and we saw a lot of his love for the profile of being up there at the lectern and telling us what we were, what we could do with our lives. But I think once you've decided that you're going to carry on as an MP, but go off to the jungle and take part in I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here, and pretend that it's all related to your campaign for dyslexia, is just kind of go away time.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  It's a very interesting move, isn't it? Because, so Matt Hancock is a very unusual politician. I mean, he's, he's, he's quite able. He's, he's probably one of the brighter politicians. As you say, he was very close to George Osborne. He at the cabinet table, I remember him, and even when we were junior ministers together, that's quite an effective punchy performer. He got himself in that terrible muddle. I mean, I never quite forgave him for joining Boris Johnson's cabinet, having said that Boris, everything that Boris stood for was portraying the men on the D-Day beaches, and then immediately changing his mind and joining Boris Johnson's cabinet. In fact, during the leadership, I slightly worried that he deliberately wasted my time

• 26:28Speaker 02

  by pretending he was going to join my leadership campaign to take away my time to prepare for the debate, and then announcing he was backing Boris Johnson. But I think his calculation to go on, I'm a celebrity, is based on the sort of Trump effect, which is a theory which is entering politics, that if you're going to make it now, you have to be a sort of celebrity, and that that was the sort of Donald Trump Boris Johnson lesson. And maybe he sort of decided that his only hope now is to become really famous, and that this is the way to do it. But it's interesting that Simon Hart, who's the new chief whip, has moved so quickly to say this is not acceptable, because of course, it's during parliamentary term. He's meant to be representing his constituents and attending parliament, not sitting in the jungle being filmed.

• 27:13Alastair Campbell?

  But Simon Hart would not have done that without Rishi Sunak agreeing to it.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 27:19Alastair Campbell?

  And also, I think the other thing I'd say about this, I totally get what you're saying about, you know, there's something about modern politics that people are almost, it's almost like they want to let celebrities. But I wonder if actually he's decided, there was that, I don't know if you saw when Sunak went to Conservative Central Office, when he was being, you know, crowned as Conservative Party leader, and he was caught on camera literally blanking Matt Hancock, and it was perfectly obvious Matt Hancock was not going to figure in his plans. But do you, you actually think he's doing this to raise his national profile? I think it's a terrible thing for him to do.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think he's, I think he's in an extraordinary position, because he has been one of politics' great survivors, along with Grant Shapps. So he was very close to George Osborne, who Theresa May didn't like. She came in, and she demoted him out of the cabinet, but he stuck with it, worked hard, got back into the cabinet under Theresa May, managed to survive the transition to Boris Johnson that very few other people did, and he did it by endorsing Boris Johnson very early. And Boris Johnson didn't want to fire him. Remember, he was fired for a film in his office. We're talking about security. Very, very strange. It turned out there were cameras in the Secretary of State's office, which were then leaked to the newspaper of him kissing his then spat, his then aide.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  So he lost his job then. Boris Johnson wanted to bring him back, thought it would blow over and he could get him back in the cabinet. And he will have very much hoped that Liz Truss would put him back in the cabinet and that then that Rishi Sunak would. But none of them have made him ministers again. So he will be looking for a way, I think, of trying to reboot his political career in real despair because he has been a minister, he was a minister very early under David Cameron. He was a minister continuously for 10 years and he will have been very confused and hurt, rattling around the back benches with his marriage collapsing around him, trying to work out how to reboot his career. One question for you, though. You were asked to go on these shows once, weren't you? How much money do you get for going on these shows?

• 29:24Alastair Campbell?

  I've been asked to go and I'm a celebrity lots of times and I can't remember, I can't remember. One of them was like, they were getting very, they were getting close to seven figures at one point. And that was, but that was, I don't think they're paying that sort of money now, but I, I'd be very, very surprised if he's doing this for less than pretty healthy six figures, I'd have thought.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  And unless, of course, they think they can get politicians for free, because one of the things that I've noticed

• 29:47Speaker 02

  is that when you're a politician, for example, you write an article for the newspaper, they don't pay you because they know that politicians are so desperate for media coverage, they don't have to pay them. I think it's probably a way of balancing your budget. If you get a politician in and you don't have to pay them.

• 30:00Alastair Campbell?

  Well, the other, of course, the other thing that's quite interesting is that Mike Tindall, who's married to, you know, Princess Anne's son-in-law, he's going to be on the same show. So we've got politics and royalty. I mean, for God's sake, Rory, what is happening to this country?

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Well, it's kind of weird, isn't it? Because obviously you must have been at some level a little bit.

• 30:21Alastair Campbell?

  Tempted.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Tempted.

• 30:22Alastair Campbell?

  Not at all.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  A million pounds is a lot of money, no?

• 30:24Alastair Campbell?

  Not at all, not at all, not at all. I think, look, if Mike Hancock had phoned me up. And said, what do you think of this? I would have said, well, Matt, up to you, but I would say if there is ever a choice between money and reputation, go for reputation. Now, maybe he thinks it doesn't matter anymore, but he's also, he's got a book coming out about his, you know, presenting himself as the sort of savior on COVID. I thought one of the most telling reactions to his, the news that he's going on this TV programme was from the COVID nineteen, the Breed families, who were basically saying they saw, they saw this as him cashing in on fame that he earned doing the job he was meant to do very, very badly.

• 31:08Alastair Campbell?

  And I, I think this, I think this trashes his reputation, but I could be completely wrong.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  Well, so you know, the person who did this before in 2013 was Nadine Doris.

• 31:17Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Who went on I'm a Celebrity. And that was fascinating. I mean, she denied on Twitter, after an interview with Andrew Neil, that she'd been paid £40,000 for her appearance. And then later had to apologise, four months later, because it turned out that actually she'd taken £142,000 and a profit of £82,000 into a company called Ava Brook, which was her own company, which she hadn't declared. I mean, it's really dubious stuff.

• 31:43Alastair Campbell?

  Wow. And Johnson still put her in the East Cabinet. Well, that is a surprise.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  So November 2013, she was refusing to declare her fee. June 2013, she was on Twitter denying that she'd been paid £40,000 and then she had to admit at the end of the year that she'd actually been paid nearly £142. It's extraordinary. So maybe you are right that it's going to get some money. But let's, let's go to the break and I'd love after the break, if I've still got a voice, just to talk a little bit through Rishi Sunak's cabinet, because I think it's quite an interesting group of people.

• 32:09Alastair Campbell?

  Well, one final question for all the break, Rory, is a yes or no answer. Would you ever go on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here?

• 32:15Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I don't, I don't.

• 32:17Alastair Campbell?

  That is not a no, Rory. I want a straight no.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Well, I, I'm pretty strong on the no. I, I don't think it's very dignified. It doesn't sound like it's very much up my street.

• 32:25Alastair Campbell?

  Good.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 32:27Alastair Campbell?

  Take a break.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 32:32Speaker 04

  On October 2nd.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 32:38Speaker 04

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 32:45Speaker 05

  What would happen if I stopped going? You stall, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 32:49Speaker 04

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 32:53Speaker 05

  I'm not the first then.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  Digger. See the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.

• 32:59Speaker 05

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• 33:01Speaker 06

  It's me, the.

• 33:02Speaker 05

  Priceline Negotiator.

• 33:04Speaker 06

  We don't need the jingle twice.

• 33:05Speaker 05

  What about a third time?

• 33:07Speaker 06

  Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars.

• 33:14Speaker 05

  Seems like they just started.

• 33:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app.

• 33:20Speaker 05

  Time to read the timeline.

• 33:22Speaker 06

  Fine. No one deals more deals than.

• 33:24Speaker 05

  Priceline.

• 33:25Speaker 06

  Please stop.

• 33:26Speaker 05

  Priceline.

• 33:27Speaker 06

  Touche.

• 33:27Speaker 05

  Priceline.

• 33:28Speaker 06

  Priceline.

• 33:30Speaker 07

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• 34:30Speaker 02

  So welcome back in a very croaky voice to The Rest Is Politics with me, Alastair Campbell. That's a joke.

• 34:38Alastair Campbell?

  And me, Rory Stewart.

• 34:42Alastair Campbell?

  You want to talk about Rishi's cabinet, Rishi Sunak's cabinet?

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, so interesting group of people. So first thing is, of course, something we've talked about before, which is the long year in government, the Conservative Party, as you keep pointing out, has been in for 12 years, 12 and a half years now. You start recycling people, many of whom have been through scandals in the past. So there are people who he's brought back into the cabinet who've been through some pretty difficult scandals and are sort of survivors. That's something maybe we can talk about when we talk about Brazil and Lula. So Suella Braverman, we just talked about before the break, who was fired. Grant Shapps famously, actually was kind of fired twice. He was demoted by David Cameron initially around allegations that he was running a Ponzi scheme under a fake name online.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  And then for editing colleagues' Wikipedia pages is back. Dominic Raab, who went because of issues around the Afghan evacuation back in as deputy prime minister. So there's some of that going on, but there are also people here that I'm very pleased to see in. In the last podcast we did, I challenged Rishi Sunak and said, "I would have loved to see people like Gillian Keegan and Mel Stride in the cabinet." And he's done that. He's put in Gillian Keegan at education.

• 36:00Alastair Campbell?

  You also called for Alex Chalk?

• 36:02Speaker 02

  I called for Alex Chalk. In the past, I've called for Victoria Prentice.

• 36:05Alastair Campbell?

  Alex Chalk has got a job, isn't he, in Defence, I think?

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, Minister of State and Minister of Defence, yeah. So that's great. But in the cabinet itself, we've got Gillian Keegan, Victoria Prentice as Attorney General, Simon Hart, who I'm an admirer of, as the Attorney General, Mel Stride. Michael Go has been brought back in. I thought it was a big mistake for this trust to exclude him. And Andrew Mitchell, your friend, has come in to do development. And then there's other people who joined with me, like John Glenn. Your friend Johnny Mercer still in, Tom Tugendhat attending Cabinet.

• 36:37Alastair Campbell?

  You've named both my Conservative friends, Rory.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Both your Conservative friends, right. So it's an interesting Cabinet way. He's having to balance, but I think it is more of a team of rivals than we've seen under Boris Johnson.

• 36:51Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, for sure.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Because, you know, yes, there's Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman, but he's got Jeremy Hunt in as Chancellor. And he has made an effort to bring back in people who would be seen as being more from the One Nation left of the Conservative Party, more balanced group.

• 37:06Alastair Campbell?

  There is a theory with Suella Braverman, which I've seen several people speculating, that he felt he had to bring her in because of her position within the ERG, but he knew that she would blow up very quickly. That strikes me as a big risk for him because one of his and Jeremy Hunt's big things is going to be that they're more competent than Truss and Quarteng, which wouldn't be hard. But if his first defining issue, obviously the big defining issue is going to be the the financial statement, which is coming up in a week or two. But if the other thing is Suella Braverman exploding and eventually having to go, it doesn't really do much for his reputation.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  No, I think that's been very difficult, though. I believe the reason that he had to bring her in is that it was the only way of guaranteeing that Boris Johnson got knocked out. So she used to run the ERG, she has this faction on the far right of the party that seemed to want to get in behind her. Maybe, actually, I mean, in the last run against Liz Truss, it was only about, I think, 20, 25, 27 people towards the end, but it was enough potentially to make the difference between Boris Johnson crossing that threshold of 100 or not. So it was quite a political decision he made to break her in, but it's an understandable one and probably one that if you're going to play top level politics, you have to be prepared to make those kinds of decisions. But as you say, it's a very dangerous decision because it's

• 38:26Speaker 02

  it's one that is marking the beginning of his premiership. And she's a very unstable figure and she will be tempted. To resign at a moment's notice and become the kind of hero martyr of the Tory right.

• 38:38Alastair Campbell?

  And replace David Frost in that role and get another whacking great payoff as well. The other person you didn't mention of the retreads is somebody else who's got a bit of a track record on breaches of security and that was Gavin Williamson. Now, I, my money, I had a little, my son, as you know, likes, likes of flutter in a way that I don't, but we're just sort of having a natter about who we thought would be the first to resign. My, I think Braverman has to be favourite. I think the look on Penny Mordaunt's face on the front bench says to me, she's, looks pretty fit to explode of having, that he kept her in the same job. And I, I just, I just wonder whether Williamson is another one who's a kind of hand grenade

• 39:18Alastair Campbell?

  waiting to go off because these, but once you've got form for doing very silly, potentially dangerous things, which break the ministerial code, break issues of national security and so forth, then the chances are, if you've got away with it, you'll do it again.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Well, it's very odd, isn't it, that people seem to be forgiven in politics in that way and retreaded through. I mean, I think it's a sense that firstly, there's a very limited, as it were, gene pool. They have to take the cabinet out of the MPs, which is, I think, one of the real problems in the British system, that you have a very limited pool of talent from which to take your cabinet. But the second thing is that there are all these personal friendships and loyalties. Then there's the question of how you organise your leadership team. So was he using Gavin Williamson and Grant Shapps to do his numbers for him and run his spreadsheets and do his whipping for him? Therefore, he felt he had to reward them. Then it's a question of balancing the party and all of that means, and then there's personal loyalty, which I guess is probably the reason why people like Peter Mandelson were brought

• 40:15Speaker 02

  back in again, having left in a scandal, why they returned. Is that right? That it's a combination of not having that much talent available and also feeling personal loyalty towards people that they resign and bring them back again?

• 40:27Alastair Campbell?

  I think they're both factors, but I, I think your point about the talent pool being pretty narrow is a big one. I think once a prime minister thinks that whatever people say about some of the ministers that he or she respects, they are the ones that he wants around them, then he, Tony was always very, very clear that, you know, you'd much rather have Peter Mandelson as senior ministerial government, government position than not.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  So Penny Morden though, just to follow up on your point there, she will be the angriest here because remember she was the one of, she was, she was the second leading leadership contender after Rishi Sunak. There were many people in the party who thought that she could actually go head to head against him. She claims to have almost made it to a hundred votes. So she had a loss of the party behind her. And leader of the House of Commons isn't running a government department. It's not an executive operational role. You're not running education or transport or defence. And she was somebody who'd been Defence Secretary, felt badly treated by Boris Johnson, who didn't give her a senior role, has been looking for a chance to get back in again. So she will be very angry, I suspect.

• 41:31Alastair Campbell?

  Now, talking of comebacks, the comeback of recent, well, recent decades in a way, to go from being in jail a few years ago to being back as president, we're talking about here about, do you want to go, do you want to go, is for his full name, or should we just call him Lula?

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Well, he's everybody, everybody calls him Lula. But he was the first guy to do this, wasn't it? I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a real talent. If you have a funny first name. I hoped, being called Rory, I was going to have the same possibility. There are little bits of, there was a small campaign called I'd Go Tory for Rory. But anyway, his full name seems to be Luis Inacio Lula de Silva.

• 42:11Alastair Campbell?

  That's the one. And he's, he's, he was president from 2003 to 2010. Actually, very, very popular at the time. I think got a lot of credit for lifting millions of people out of poverty. He managed to, he actually managed to do the thing that we talked a lot about was delivering greater economic efficiency and alongside it, greater social justice. He became a bit of a kind of, you know, bit of a big star. There's that clip I've mentioned before when Obama, Lula arrived at a summit and Obama stood up and said, ah, here comes the world's favourite politician. And it was kind of, it wasn't tongue in cheek. At the time, Lula was really seen as something big. Then there were these corruption scandals

• 42:54Alastair Campbell?

  after he left office and several of his colleagues were involved and he went to jail. He then, the, the, I think it was the Supreme Court, which eventually annulled the conviction, which is what allowed him to run again. Because Bolsonaro, first time around, I'll give you a million pounds Rory, if you can remember without Googling the name of the guy that Bolsonaro beat last time.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  I, I can't.

• 43:16Alastair Campbell?

  Look at I. And that's why I was confident, because he was just like, not a very good candidate. But that's one of the reasons why Bolsonaro won, I think. But Bolsonaro has been in his very right wing. I saw that there's this phrase that does the rounds that he won and sustained power on the back of beef, Bible and bullets. Beef is agri-business and in particular, you know, the deforestation of the Amazon, of course, which the most other world leaders have decried him for, but which he has basically said is Brazil's business and he literally means it's Brazil's business. Then the Bible, I'm always stunned by how these far-right leaders seem to have so many God-fearing

• 43:57Alastair Campbell?

  people behind them and certainly has all the evangelicals. And then bullets, there's a gun-owning lobby, as there is in America, and he has made it a much bigger lobby because his gun-ownership has spread, but also the police and the military. And I think there was a lot of worry around the other day when they were putting up all these roadblocks and it looked like they were stopping people from voting and so forth. So he's still got an awful lot of following. So you couldn't really get to... We are talking here about two extremes. I mean, Lula's pretty left-wing, he's from a trade union background and he's, you know, the Workers' Party. But I think the other thing that people underestimate,

• 44:39Alastair Campbell?

  he put together a coalition of different parties who were united in one thing, and that was to get rid of Bolsonaro. Now, once they see the back of him, holding that coalition together will not be easy at all.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Just to go through some of the stuff around Lula. I mean, it is a pretty remarkable story and a reminder. I mean, Brazil, of course, is a, you know, it's a major economy. It's been one of the major economies of the world for over 100 years. But the experience of Lula's own life is a very, very different story from the story of politicians in Western Europe and a reminder of some of the gaps between Latin American politics and British politics. So he didn't learn to read until the age of 10. His first wife and his first son died of hepatitis. His first job was at the age of 12, when I think he was shining

• 45:31Speaker 02

  shoes. He lost, I think, a finger in an industrial accident. So very, very rough, tough, early life. Met his current partner in prison. And he came into a system where since a military coup in the mid-60s, every president of Brazil had been a general. And he's not like these young radicals we've been talking about in Latin American politics who... Get first elected in the early twenties, or indeed on the right in Italy, in the case of the current Italian leader elected in her early twenties. He's a guy who fought his way up through his thirties in the trade union movement against this military regime and then pulled off this miracle of helping to get the first civilian president in, standing repeatedly, I think he lost three times running for president,

• 46:15Speaker 02

  finally made it and then did this extraordinary thing of lifting nearly 20% of the country out of poverty.

• 46:21Alastair Campbell?

  No, he was seen, I think he left, when he left office, his approval ratings were pretty high for a leaving president. Bolsonaro becomes the first Brazilian president since dictatorship not to win a second term, which is a record he will not enjoy at all. And of course, he is the guy who, he was an ex-military guy and he basically thinks that it's been a failure. One of the reasons he hates Lula is that he doesn't think that Lula stands up for the record of the military dictatorship. And this is a guy who thinks that the military dictatorship was a good thing. And of course, the military support him hugely.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  Just very quickly, the other reason, of course, many of us are very excited by Lula's election. I mean, notwithstanding his sort of many other issues of his past, is his environmental policies. Brazil is, of course, the breathing lung, the Amazon rainforest, the breathing lung of the world. And Lula has been much more committed to conservation and protecting the rainforest.

• 47:19Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely. No, and Bolsonaro became utterly Trumpian in his contempt for anybody who tried to say it was anything other than the business of Brazilian business as to what happened to the Amazon.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  But I'm afraid it is almost certainly true that he was connected with corruption. The number of corruption scandals that surrounded him and his office and his main ministers. Regardless of the final prosecution and his release and his 500 days in prison, Lula surrounded himself, to put it politely, with a lot of very, very corrupt people. And that is a big issue going forward in Brazilian foreign politics.

• 47:56Alastair Campbell?

  And well, the other thing, one of the reasons why it said that Bolsonaro was able to come back, if you remember the polls before the first round, Lula was not out of sight, but he was well ahead. But Bolsonaro had this huge slush fund where public money was going out to all sorts of people who were basically helping him in the campaign. The other thing, the other thing which I hadn't quite realised, I read a piece the other day about the extent to which fake news in Brazil is apparently worse, much, much, much worse than America. Most people are consuming their news on these private networks and Bolsonaro absolutely masterful.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Was so encouraging, I mean, to be honest, I mean, given that we talk a lot about an age of populism, in a sense, Biden's victory against Trump, Lula's victory against Bolsonaro, and Boris Johnson being chucked out after two years, all these things show that even in an age of post-truce and polarisation, there are still countervailing forces.

• 48:49Alastair Campbell?

  My God, how close was it though? Fifty point nine to forty nine point one in a country of a hundred and fifty, you know, a hundred and fifty million voters.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Incredibly close. And if a hundred and ten thousand votes had gone differently with Trump, he could have taken it.

• 49:02Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  And Boris Johnson, if he'd just made it through that hundred level, could be back in as prime minister today with the support of the Conservative Party in the country. So it's a daily fight.

• 49:12Alastair Campbell?

  We, we should also perhaps mention this, there's two, we're recording this on Tuesday, there's two other elections going on today, and both of them have got very interesting comeback stories. I can remember way, way, way back, it might even been as far back as 1997 in our first year, it was certainly very early. And I remember John Holmes, who was Tony's main, Tony Blair's main foreign policy adviser, and a great guy. And I remember the first time we met Netanyahu and said, what do you think of Netanyahu? And he said, he's a 24 carat bullshitter. And this was, this was back in the, in the late, in the last century. And here he is, coming back, it would seem, possibly, yet another comeback.

• 49:55Alastair Campbell?

  And he's another one, he's got three outstanding corruption charges against him. He's got cases going through the courts now. And if he does get back on the back of today's election, it's going to be with this very right wing, radical, religious.

• 50:09Alastair Campbell?

  Extreme outfit, including one guy who I think has been convicted twice for incitement to racial hatred.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  I do think one thing that I'm hoping is that the Liz Truss stepping down will mean that her threat, which was very serious and she was pushing very hard on to move the British Embassy to Jerusalem, which would have caused real disruption. I mean, remember, only Trump and a couple of tiny countries had done it and would have totally broken the UN Convention on Jerusalem as a shared city. Hopefully, that's gone out the window and hopefully now Rishi Sunak will return to a more central position in Middle Eastern politics and there'll be a lot of relief amongst British diplomats that Liz Truss has gone.

• 50:50Alastair Campbell?

  One thing that we haven't talked about, which we should probably do in the Q and A is, I mean, I'm glad we haven't in a way because I find him one of the most annoying, obnoxious, narcissistic, attention-seeking people on the planet. That's Elon Musk and Twitter, but we probably should talk about that on the Q and A. We did get a lot of questions about it this week, but I just want, I briefly want to mention Denmark because we did talk a lot about the Swedish election. There's an election in Denmark. Have you been following this at all and how it came about?

• 51:15Speaker 02

  No, tell me all about it.

• 51:16Alastair Campbell?

  Well, basically, Mette Frederiksen, the Prime Minister, got into all sorts of trouble because she culled or she ordered the cull of 17 million mink during the pandemic. And then in the disposing of them, there was all sorts of stuff about whether it was going to contaminate the water and so forth. And eventually, one of the, we're back to the whole thing about coalitions and, you know, if you've watched Borg and anybody who watched Borg and knows that Danish politics, it's always dealing with coalitions. But what's interesting is that a new party, the Moderates Party, which is headed by yet another comeback guy, an ex-Prime Minister Lars Lohr Rasmussen, looks like it's going to be the kingmaker and will decide whether it's the social democrat bloc or the centre-right

• 52:00Alastair Campbell?

  bloc that leads in the formation of the government. And if he does really, really well as a third party, might actually end up as being Prime Minister again. So, you know, we can talk all we want about PR and electoral systems, but they're all, they've all got their pros and cons, haven't they?

• 52:18Speaker 02

  Definitely, 100%.

• 52:20Alastair Campbell?

  Now, Rory, your voice has almost gone completely.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Well, I think that seems maybe a good time to say thank you guys very much and bring this podcast to the end. And hopefully, when it comes to Q and A, you'll be able to hear me.

• 52:33Alastair Campbell?

  See you later.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 52:41Speaker 04

  On October 2nd.

• 52:43Speaker 03

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all keep the blame on me.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 52:55Speaker 05

  What would happen if I stopped doing it? You start, you freeze again, that's what.

• 52:59Speaker 04

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 53:02Speaker 05

  I'm not the first then.

• 53:03Speaker 04

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.

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• 53:24Speaker 10

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