Building A Business Empire WITHOUT ANY Marketing: Five Guys CEO: John Eckbert

John Eckbert is the CEO of Five Guys in Europe. By far the most successful ‘posh burger’ chain in Britain, John tells us how he took a classic concept to a whole new content by inventing a unique business model. Five Guys in Europe is not just a franchise, but John rather started from zero on a joint venture which has so managed to eclipse the dozens of other similar businesses that launched at the same time, and then some. As well as dishing out profound business and management advice, John walks us through how a sea-change in his personal life left him feeling trapped and alone. But John fought fires at both home and work in order to make Five Guys what it is today. We’re so glad he did. Five Guys: https://fiveguys.co.uk/ Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You know, when Barack Obama left the White House to go pick up Five Guys.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  We're gonna go get some burgers. Party one.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  That's what makes Five Guys a treat and special.

• 0:09Speaker 02

  John Eckbert, the CEO of Five Guys Europe. Five Guys has a global cult following.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Five Guys burgers and fries. It was banging.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  Covent Garden was the very first Five Guys outside of the US. We knew that we weren't going to be advertising. We're entirely reliant on someone tasting a great burger and fry and then telling their neighbors or their friends. It has to be, that's fucking fantastic.

• 0:32Steven Bartlett?

  That Covent Garden location sold more than any in the world.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  It did, yeah, by far. I'm responsible for 225 restaurants now.

• 0:39Steven Bartlett?

  How'd you stop getting a little bit sloppy and complacent?

• 0:41Speaker 00

  We've actually gotten better. The key to that is...

• 0:47Steven Bartlett?

  As the CEO of a business that's gone through such chaos, when was your hardest time?

• 0:52Speaker 00

  So I had two young children. The fact is that there were moments where they woke up and needed both their parents and I wasn't there.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  You'll hurt the people you care about in ways that you don't intend, in ways that you don't understand.

• 1:10Steven Bartlett?

  So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:26Steven Bartlett?

  John, I've read quite extensively through your story and I guess my first question is, when you think back to your pre-20s, right? What are the most important things from that era of your life that shaped your perspective and approach to the world and to business today?

• 1:48Speaker 00

  Wow. Well, first, I grew up in a very countercultural, isolationist family. So we didn't watch TV. We didn't celebrate birthdays or holidays. And I kind of got up at 5:00 AM to practice violin for an hour before school and had music lessons after school every day. And so it was very different. And I think I grew up feeling different with this kind of...

• 2:20Speaker 00

  Longing to have a sense of belonging. And that was always something that I was looking for in my professional life, I think, as well. I would have been a fourth generation doctor if I had gone into medicine. And my father told me that the profession was changing and it wasn't so much about patients and doctors and kind of the relationship that can develop in terms of health and bringing your, you know, your health to your doctor and getting advice. And it was changing in America dramatically. And so he, he said, you know, don't, don't do med, you know, I'm not encouraging you to do medicine. So I knew I had to kind of find a different role in life.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  And I, I read Ann Rand in high school and not suggesting that, that she's gotten everything right. But one, one interesting thing that she did propose was that there's, there could be something noble in business. Being, you know, being a successful entrepreneur could be a noble thing. And so the, the kind of orientation from my family was make sure that you do something important or, or in your life. And that meant, you know, taking care of other people or doing something that was, had some greater purpose to it than kind of just making money.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  But that seed of a thought that being in business could actually be a noble profession and you actually could do something important to make people's lives better and take care of people in a different way in business was kind of, I think, an important penny to drop for me when I was, when I was 18. But yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a definitely a different upbringing than, than most. And that, that sense of belonging was something I've been searching for my whole life.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  Do you think you've been searching for that sense of belonging more so than the average person?

• 4:23Speaker 00

  I think so. I think if you have something in abundance, you take it for granted, maybe. And it was something that I definitely didn't have. And that I, and I very much felt, you know, an outsider looking in. And I saw this, you know, other people had community, other kids had community and kind of broad-based friendships and a sense of really kind of relaxed belonging. And I kind of always had this kind of anxious drive that, you know, looking for that.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  And, you know, I think business was, you know, certainly lived that out in the business world as well.

• 5:08Steven Bartlett?

  You had a, quite a journey through banking and being a, being what we'd call like a regional counselor and all these things. And eventually you came back to the UK. Kind of where I wanted to start this story off in 2010, I believe.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 5:26Steven Bartlett?

  Your good friend, Sir Charles Dunston, who was the founder of Carphone Warehouse. And you went into business originally. And then you went on in search of a new business to sort of partner with him on. And that's kind of where the Five Guys stories begins.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  Yes, well, I'd been a student here a long time ago and lived in a tiny basement, one-room flat, much smaller than this studio is. And Charles lived upstairs with his sister and girlfriend. And they invited me up for drinks one day. And they pretty much adopted me for my year abroad. And we went to their parents' home in Cambridge and to Norfolk for a holiday. And they, so they really made England feel like a home. And I always, was always my ambition to return with a non-student's budget to England. And so the chance came in 2010 and moved back here.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  And Charles had just spun Talk Talk out from Carphone Warehouse. And so I guess you can't be CEO of two publicly traded businesses. So he became chairman of both and CEO of neither. And began thinking a bit more as an investor. And we got to talking and thinking, what's the next big business that opportunity that we could leverage his experience and reputation in retail? But we wanted something that Amazon wasn't so much a threat to as electronics. Online felt like a real threat to that industry segment. And we thought food and beverage has got to be a segment that's a bit more protected from the online world.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  You kind of have to show, this was before delivery kind of blew up. You kind of have to show up and eat your food where it's prepared more. So we thought that that would protect you from the online competitive world. But we didn't know anything about food and beverage, neither of us did. And so we went looking for a great concept that wasn't in the UK that we thought could bring that expertise. We could bring the kind of operational UK property knowledge and hiring practices and market knowledge and partner with someone who would bring that food and beverage experience into the proposition. And we talked to so many US concepts that weren't here.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  And eventually kind of collided with the Morel family. There actually are five brothers and their mom and dad. So there's seven in the family. But five brothers who are the five guys who founded the business. And they were looking to go global, having pretty much allocated the US amongst their franchisees.

• 8:20Steven Bartlett?

  So how many other concepts do you think you looked at? Was there any near misses? Was there any that you thought, you know, maybe any other concepts that you nearly committed your life to?

• 8:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we talked with a lot of different concepts and still in contact with a lot of those concepts. And some of them have been really helpful in terms of building the Five Guys business here. So if you can use insight from another concept that maybe isn't a competitor or isn't here, that can be really helpful. And some of those still may come to play.

• 8:51Steven Bartlett?

  Then why Five Guys?

• 8:54Speaker 00

  Well, I think it starts with the product. You know, it's such a simple, fantastic product. You know, it's just burgers. You know, the menu is like, shockingly stark. I mean, it is burgers and fries, and that's it. And, but it, you know, when you, when you take a bite of a Five Guys burger, when you, when you, when you have fries that are cooked exactly right, it is, it's magical. I mean, it's, and it's fantastic. I mean, it's a world beating product. And that was, that was, I think, you know, there's so many concepts had gone like broad, you know, like, you know, there's so many concepts in America, like, you can get everything in the, in the menus like a bible. And, you know, you kind of flip through the sections, you're like, how can they possibly

• 9:37Speaker 00

  be preparing, repairing all this stuff at the top of the game? And Five Guys was going, you know, completely against that, which was, you know, everybody told the Morel family, you know, you have to have a salad if you're gonna, you know, be successful. You have to have, you know, chicken, you know, you can't just have a burger on your menu. And they're like, when we add other stuff to our menu, it just, like, blows our mind. And we don't, we, we lose focus on making a great burger. And so I think part of their genius has been focus. You know, we're gonna do just one thing and do it really well. I mean, that, that was the thesis for the founding of the business, was if you're gonna have your mom over and, and make, make burgers, you know, what would you do? You would buy the highest quality ingredients you possibly can.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  You'd make everything fresh. That, that was, I think the Morels were so far ahead of their time when they founded the business in 1986, because there's literally not a freezer in the Five Guys equipment, infrastructure. Everything is obsessively fresh. And right before the, we, we signed the joint venture to bring them here, there was a study done that said the number one criteria that anyone across the UK looked for in determining where you were gonna eat was, was the freshness of the food. And whether it was white tablecloth or at a fast food place, it didn't matter, that was the most important criteria. And that was like the Morel's thesis, they, you know, nothing, everything had to be freshly

• 11:07Speaker 00

  prepared that day or it went.

• 11:08Steven Bartlett?

  It's interesting, because conceivably, it seems to me like they were very much at the right place at the right time. There was this macro change in public perception and awareness around food and what's going into food. Organic and vegan, all these kinds of, these conversations around food started to emerge, which seems to have hurt a lot of big brands in a very fatal way. Whether it's in the sugar-based fizzy drink industry, or whether it's in the fast food industry. It's conceivable that the world could have gone another way. Maybe we could have doubled down on liking even faster food that was, has more crap in it, right?

• 11:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:48Steven Bartlett?

  So I just, I just wonder how important you think timing was in, in their thesis catching public, that sort of public wave coming into shore.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  No, I think that's, I think that's very, I think you're very right about that. You know, the, our fries have three ingredients in it. Potatoes, the peanut oil we cook it in, and a dash of salt. Some of our competitors, you know, have like sixteen, nineteen ingredients in their fries. You're like, what do you, what else could there be in, in fries? You know, so from our perspective, our, you know, our, our fries start as potatoes in the beginning of the day, they're hand wash, hand cut, and then twice cooked to a very specific standard. And, you know, just keeping it, again, just keeping it simple. And I think, I think it's very much, I think they, they positioned themselves in front of a tidal wave without, without knowing it.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  And that, that trend of freshness, I think was a huge, a huge win for the family. I think the other thing that they did, which was very early on trend, even early for when we found it here in the UK, was customization. And having something exactly the way that you want it. We have fifteen free toppings, which means that you can have every burger two hundred and fifty thousand ways, just by the combinations of those, those toppings. And everything is made by hand, just for you. We don't cook anything until Stephen walks in and says, you know, this is the burger that I want. Now, the challenging thing is, is that as soon as you've placed your order, there's two hundred and forty-nine thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine wrong ways to make your burger.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  So the customer, one of the, one aspect of customer service is getting that right the first time. But customization was new, I think. I mean, in America, you know, it goes back to Harry Met Sally and the way she ordered her salad in the, you know, in the restaurant, you know, is, you know. An example of how Americans want things just the way they want them. But I think that's been a newer thing to Europe. Like the chef should know, chef tell me how I should order this. And saying, no, no, it should be exactly the way you want it. And I think that trend is, certainly the millennials are very much on to that. You know, I want it exactly the way that I want it. And Five Guys is really ready for that.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  The whole machine is like, I liken it to putting a Ferrari engine on top of an ox cart and then racing it around a track. So we're very old school, very analog in our product, in our production. It's very manual. Everything's handmade. And yet we can do, you know, a 4,000 pound hour out of, you know, Oxford Circus making, you know, burgers and fries. You'll see kind of 25, 30 people running around madly behind an open kitchen, making your food. I think that was the other secret because Five Guys doesn't advertise. So there literally is no way for us to tell someone who doesn't know Five Guys what we're

• 14:45Speaker 00

  about or, you know, what makes us different or special. We're entirely relying on someone walking into the restaurant, seeing how the food is prepared, tasting a great burger and fry, and then telling their, their neighbors or their friends, you know, hey, look, you've got to, you've got to try this. So having an open kitchen where you can see that freshness and the customization, I think has been part of the success of the business.

• 15:08Steven Bartlett?

  It's almost like there's a set of really strong values underpinning the business. The business has been reverse engineered, maybe not even reverse engineered, because when it's the case of a founding family still running it, I'm sure it all comes sort of intuitively to them. But, and so in hindsight, we look at it and go, that's the point of genius, that's the point of genius. But it's all comes from these underlying values. One of those is about the freshness of the ingredients and it all being very real. So of course the kitchen would be open, right? Because you've got nothing to hide.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:34Steven Bartlett?

  But in hindsight, you go, well, you know, that's, that's genius. Well, no. It's it would be strange to hide away the kitchen in such a context, but that that particular point about the kitchen being open at Five Guys is very different from all the other fast food restaurants that came before Five Guys that dominated the high street, where you'd order the burger and then something would go on in the back and then you'd get this thing wrapped up, given to you.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:59Steven Bartlett?

  I've also seen this trend with all these fast salad outlets where they put all of the vegetables, the carrots and the cucumbers on show in front of you, as if to say, these are the carrots that are going to go into your salad.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:14Steven Bartlett?

  And it's more, you don't really, you don't think about it as a customer that much, but somewhere subconsciously, it's really, it really, really matters, right?

• 16:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I mean, I think, you know, part of the the original founding of the business, Jerry Morrell picked a very obscure location and said, look, if we can make this location work, we know we have something. It almost was like a speakeasy, you know, where like, you know, knock three times and, you know, someone will open the the slide window and, you know, you give the secret word and then you come in. And so Five Guys kind of had a little bit of that kind of coolness factor of like, hey, let me tell you about Five Guys, it's amazing. And, you know, maybe you haven't heard of it, certainly haven't seen it on TV or on the radio, but it's amazing. And if you, you know, come find out. So, you know, when Barack Obama left the White House in his limo to go pick up Five

• 17:01Speaker 00

  Guys and for his office, you know, that was, you know, a great example of how, of course, you know, everybody knows who he is and that's kind of like a megaphone, but that's how Five Guys was discovered. That's how Five Guys built its business was one recommendation at a time. And I can remember Covent Garden was the very first Five Guys outside of the US. And we'd spent a lot of money paying for the bar that was there to leave and then building the first Five Guys. And the, we were quite nervous. We were, we were well into five figures, seven figures for, you know, for the new, for the first store.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  And the night before opening, we were like, what happens if nobody comes? And Jerry Morrell laughed and said, you know, look, you picked a good location, someone's going to walk by here and. They'll walk in, we'll make them a great burger and they'll tell their neighbors and it'll be fine. And of course, there was a queue at 4 a.m. in the morning and there was a queue around the building for the first two years that the business was open until we opened up more Five Guys around there.

• 18:09Steven Bartlett?

  Because people had tried it in America, including me. I tried it and I think I tried it in America before I tried it here. I'm 99% sure that I tried it on my way to Coachella one year or something. But and then when it came here, I was like, oh, that's that amazing burger place from America. Is that why there was a queue around the corner?

• 18:24Speaker 00

  It was. There actually is a burger blogger community that's global.

• 18:29Steven Bartlett?

  Ah, okay.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  And everybody talks about burgers and it's one of those very articulate communities that and there's a lot of debate about who has the best burger and why it's the best burger and Five Guys is in that debate, in that mix. And so we're really fortunate for that. And actually, when Charles and I were thinking about who to do business with, it really was when, you know, when Charles flew over and went to Five Guys in Manhattan, it was like, this is fantastic. The product's fantastic. One thing that we did really differently in the UK was the property approach. We thought the product was, it was a category winner. It was the best that we had that we could find, but it was positioned from a property

• 19:12Speaker 00

  perspective and mostly in strip centers and kind of B locations in America. And we thought, let's give it the property presence that it deserves. And I think that positioning was a really important distinction that we made. Richard Collier, who owns our property, has done a fantastic job of picking the flagship locations to say, there isn't a better premium burger than Five Guys. And we're going to make sure that you discover us, partly because of where we are.

• 19:40Steven Bartlett?

  So you chose aspirational locations because you wanted to make the brand aspirational, essentially?

• 19:46Speaker 00

  Well, we knew that we weren't going to be advertising. So if you can't tell people about who you are, you have to rely upon the footfall and that, which essentially becomes a word of mouth accelerator. So if you have a lot of people walking by your store, some will make the decision to come in. And then that larger group who comes in then kind of tells everybody else. And that's really the way the business grew and worked.

• 20:14Steven Bartlett?

  You know, you have this, you have this rule where you don't do advertising. Has there ever been a time where you thought, fuck? I just wanna just run a little Facebook ad. You know, the pandemic comes around, things start changing in the world, you think, fuck, I just wanna, you know, I know you joined some of the delivery services, which was a, which was a big, big decision for the UK.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 20:32Steven Bartlett?

  Because the US hadn't done that previously.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 20:34Steven Bartlett?

  But in those moments, do you not think, fuck, I just wanna run a little?

• 20:38Speaker 00

  It's real tempting, isn't it? You know, I mean, you know, when you think about the dashboard that most food and beverage executives have, you know, you have an advertising dial that you can crank, you know, you can choose the quality of your messaging and the budget that you put in it and the way that you spend it. And all those dials are gone and off the, off the table. So, you know, it does focus you on the things that you can do, which is making great burgers and fries, hiring people who are passionate about it. You know, kind of back to the whole people thing. The, the people who are in the store make such a difference. You know, food fundamentally is about passion.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  We all have, you know, you, you, you remember the great food experiences that you've had. You talk about them and it becomes part of your, if you're on holiday, having great food is part of that experience. And having a passion about food is so important. And, and, and having, you know, I'm responsible for 225 restaurants now. And 8,600 people a day get up and put on a red shirt and go into work in a Five Guys. And whether those people who are actually shaking fries and grilling burgers care about the product that they're making, the food that they're, that they're cooking, that's all the difference because all we have is the customer eating a great product. It can't be good, right?

• 22:04Speaker 00

  If a customer takes a bite of a burger and goes, huh, that's really good. That, that doesn't move the dial, nothing happens. It has to be, that's fucking fantastic. You know, I'm gonna go tell somebody who else, who, who do I know who likes good food? I'm gonna tell them about a burger or a fry, you know, the fries at Five Guys. It has to be that level good. And you only get that level good with people who pour their passion and their care into the food that they're preparing. And having that many people care about, about. Burgers and fries is the, you know, I think the, what makes us successful.

• 22:39Steven Bartlett?

  You know that, that sort of psychological device that's making people want to tell their friends? Do you spend much time thinking about exactly why that is? Like, what is the, why would I care? If I've had a great burger, why would I care psychologically to tell my best mate about that burger? What is it doing for me?

• 22:57Speaker 00

  That's next level thinking, Stephen. And, and it actually is, is the, I, I, one thing we have been able to do is to encourage the Morels to widen their thinking a bit. And delivery was a great example of that, where they opened up a store near the Pentagon and a general called up Jerry and said, I'd like a thousand burgers at, you know, noon. And, uh, you know, Jerry bought a big sign and hung it up, no delivery, and put it on the side of the building. And, you know, the thesis was right, which is that our burgers and fries taste best right off the grill. You know, it's the best food experience you can get. But we convinced him that actually it wasn't just your cheap, local, um, you know,

• 23:42Speaker 00

  guy who was delivering food, it was actually really high quality food. And more and more people were actually looking for really good food delivered.

• 23:49Steven Bartlett?

  Did he come and try it here?

• 23:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:52Steven Bartlett?

  From delivery?

• 23:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 23:54Steven Bartlett?

  Before it went to delivery?

• 23:55Speaker 00

  Before it went to America, for sure. But we convinced them that all of the better restaurant concepts were, were actually heading towards delivery. And so, gosh, five, six years ago now, we, we started, we launched delivery in the, in the UK and it, and it really worked. It kind of became about 20% of our sales. And they saw that, of course, it's not as good as right off the grill, but it actually is a good product and people like it and it, and it can work. And, and if you work with your delivery and you have a commitment from your delivery partner to take care of the food as it's transported to the, to the customer, it can really work. And we did a lot of stuff, like, you know, telling people that, you know, turn, turn your oven on 200,

• 24:36Speaker 00

  pop the fries in for, you know, just a couple of minutes, it'll really, you know, liven them up before you eat them. So they saw that it worked here and they picked it up and. Of course, during the pandemic, it was our lifeblood. You know, it would have been a very different journey if there hadn't been delivery in the system. But we've been able to convince the Morels that some of those things that were were rules of the brand before can actually be good for the brand and can work. And delivery was a good example of that.

• 25:05Steven Bartlett?

  And I guess that's important because the world is changing. So like stubborn values are really good to some extent. But in a changing world, it's almost a bit like the Bible. You have to be able to look at the thing again and go huh.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:17Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe, you know, so.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Indeed, and actually in the Morels defense, you know, they've they've become successful. Who they are is saying no to change. You know, when everybody told them they should do a chicken sandwich, everybody told them they should do a salad. They were like, no, no, it's too complicated. We take our eye off the ball and the kind of core of what we do. And helping them to discern that delivery actually is okay. You can be the best burger being delivered.

• 25:45Steven Bartlett?

  Because it doesn't compromise on their on their values, those core values of serving food that your mother would love, basically.

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Exactly right.

• 25:52Steven Bartlett?

  So they're willing to innovate, but with but I guess they're not compromising on their values then because those core values are still there. But now it's just about distributions changing a little bit.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Well, you mean, you have a customer who wants a great burger and they happen to be watching the football match. And they're like, I am not leaving my chair, right? I'm watching the football match and but I want the best burger I can possibly get. So that customer you can still reach and you can give them a really good product.

• 26:19Steven Bartlett?

  When you think about the incumbents, then those we'll talk about just the burger incumbents that were there in the, let's say, in the European market before Five Guys arrived. Why do you think now, from everything you've learned, that incumbents often fall? What is it?

• 26:35Speaker 00

  Gosh, well, you know, I I I all I can say is that I think part of it is the the most enduring concepts will survive. And I think if you look at Five Guys, you know, we Five Guys wasn't successful because we put a slice of avocado, you know, on a burger. So it wasn't, there was nothing trendy about Five Guys. You know, the the kind of the 15 toppings that, you know, you can put on a burger, whether it's, you know, grilled onions or mushrooms or cheese and, you know, lettuce, tomato.

• 27:07Steven Bartlett?

  I'd say fresh is trendy.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, it is trendy, but I can't imagine it ever going out of trend. I mean, you know, I know there are restaurant concepts where you walk into their kitchen and there's little like a bank of of microwaves and they like kind of pull the stuff out and you pop them in the microwaves. But I mean, you know, I can't imagine that anyone would ever go, let's go back to that. You know, I think I think fresh is is now a an enduring expectation across price points. I mean, if you can have, you know, a Five Guys that's incredibly obsessively fresh, you know, why would you not if you could?

• 27:50Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things that I sometimes think about why incumbents fall is that quality and attention to detail declines as growth increases. So the more locations we have, quality, I can see from your face, but this is, but obviously I think about, you know, I won't name names McDonald's, but I I just think, you know, the more locations you have, especially this underlying franchise model will really ultimately hurt the quality of the product. And if it hurts my quality, going back to what you said, if I have a bad burger, Milton Keynes, I'm less likely to go into McDonald's in Thailand.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:26Steven Bartlett?

  So.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, it's funny, McDonald's, I would say, is actually a really strong competitor. I mean, they they they give you what they say on the tin.

• 28:35Steven Bartlett?

  Is it declining? I don't know the numbers, but is the is the I know you're not you're not trying to slag anyone off here, but is my thesis is those businesses are in decline because there's been this new wave of like fresh and.

• 28:47Speaker 00

  You know, almost all of our customers also go to McDonald's. And, you know, if you if you look at the frequency of Five Guys, you know, McDonald's has huge frequency, you know, eight times or more a year, which actually ends up being, you know, people go there a lot. And Five Guys's frequency is much lower than that. And, you know, it's Five Guys is a treat, you know, it's not something, you know, like a competitor of mine that I think very highly of, you know, Pret's done an amazing job with who they are. You can go to Pret pretty much every day. Right in the subscription coffee stuff, you know, all that kind of stuff works on a routine basis. You can't go to Five Guys every day. I mean, I go to Five Guys, you know, pretty close to it, but eat a burger that kind of frequently.

• 29:32Speaker 00

  But, you know, most of the customers are going, you know, a couple of times a year. So from a frequency perspective, I think, you know, that's what makes Five Guys a treat and special.

• 29:44Steven Bartlett?

  So on that point about the incumbents and what makes them fall and scale being one of those key factors. How do you, how do you guard against that? You know, you've got 225 locations, you said, in Europe that you're managing.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:58Steven Bartlett?

  How do you stop the 226th location, you know, getting a little bit sloppy and complacent and then serving bad burgers?

• 30:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, gosh, Stephen, that, you know, the, that was my primary concern when I, you know, I was. Charles and I structured the joint venture together. We, you know, we hired the first employees, you know, and opened the first restaurant. And, you know, it had such amazing momentum, you know, it's kind of this explosion of Five Guys. And it was, you know, really, you know, fun to be a part of it. The kind of thing that keeps you up is, okay, we're going to grow this business, you know, as fast as we can, because we know we have something.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  How are we going to keep the intensity and the energy and the, and the passion that we see in the store in Covent Garden? How do we make sure that every one of these restaurants has that kind of intensity?

• 30:51Steven Bartlett?

  The most, that Covent Garden location sold more than any in the world when it launched.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  It did, yeah, by far. I mean, we underwrote it for like a five and a half year payback. It paid back in two years. I mean, it was just a phenomenal success. But yeah, I mean, the thing that kept me up at night was, you know, how can we make sure that, you know, we opened up in Milton Keynes? We opened up in, you know, the smallest, you know, we're going to open up a store in St. Andrews. You know, how do we make sure that, that those stores have people who are absolutely passionate about burgers and fries and taking care of hungry customers? And that, I will say, has been one of the biggest surprises of my tenure in this business is that it's, we've actually gotten better.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  The key to that is hiring very talented professionals and trusting them. And my personal style is a very hands-off style of management. I mean, if you expect me to micromanage you, we've gotten off in the wrong places, the wrong fit. We hire professionals who are really good at what they do and let them do their job. And finding those people who are absolutely operators. I'd say the other bit is that we are very operations-led. I was a banker before this, but I'm fully qualified in a five-guys kitchen.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  So I can do every task that you see in making burgers and fries. I'm certified to do that. There are people who are much better at it than I am, could do it much faster than I can. But if you have any credibility in the business, you have to be operationally capable. And hiring operationally capable people who are really good at identifying and qualifying those people who can run a store and bring that passion into a store, that's been the secret of the growth of the business. Because having that kind of commitment from the person who's showing up and running a shift, that's what makes a restaurant successful.

• 33:05Steven Bartlett?

  Going back to that point about values, I would imagine that, you know, from speaking to actually sports teams and speaking to the players in those successful sports teams, whether it's the Manchester United players that were under Sir Alex Ferguson for 20-odd years, and they said something to me which was really interesting and I never forgot. Rio Ferdinand said to me, he said, "How many times do you think Sir Alex Ferguson came into the training ground changing room?" I said, "I don't know, you tell me." He goes, "Twice in 26 years." And I go, "Why?" And he goes, "Well, the culture was in there, so he didn't need to come in." And it spoke and then he told me about when he moved to another football club. And in that same training ground changing room, they're all bickering and talking about how much they're being paid and like slagging things off. Whereas Sir Alex Ferguson never needed to walk into that room because the culture was already in there.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 33:49Steven Bartlett?

  And it made me think about how, you know, to keep the specialness of what made you successful at one location. When you have two hundred and twenty five, those values in that culture must be so strong. So if I'm if I'm starting at Five Guys in a management position today, what are you saying to me to turn me into a Five Guys disciple?

• 34:07Speaker 00

  Well, I guess we do actually have values that we identify with inside the business and hiring right is essential. I mean, there's so many talented food and beverage professionals who are really good at their job, but who are a terrible fit for us. And so being able to find those human beings who work in a Five Guys. So a general manager works in the restaurant with customers, with crew, making burgers and fries, taking resolving problems and issues. There's not a laptop job in a Five Guys. So someone who's looking for kind of, you know, a kind of ice skate above things and, you know, not really getting your hands dirty. That's not the right fit for us. So I guess the first thing we did was, you know, when we opened up, nobody knew who Five Guys were.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  So we had to beg people to work for us. And of course, that that's always a mistake. We hired a lot of the wrong people and you have a lot of churn early on trying to find what that right fit is. And so I remember it was a really important decision we made where we're essentially going to invert the equation. And we said, you know, Five Guys is a really hard job and it's probably not for you. And then kind of be quiet and look for the look for the the woman or the guy who kind of raised their hand and said, that kind of sounds good to me. And so. Having the kind of negative sell on working at Five Guys, I think was a really important distinction

• 35:34Speaker 00

  that we made. But once you get into Five Guys, we have five values that we build our business on. And that's integrity. You can't, once you lose your integrity, everything else is easy. So having integrity in how you lead, being competitive and wanting to win and going after the business, being enthusiastic, having passion and positivity and looking for the solution. Family oriented, taking care of people, having a sense about the human beings who are on your crew and the hungry people who are coming into your store and treating them like family, then getting it done. Not over complicating it. Our businesses are, you know, our menu's simple, our business is

• 36:14Speaker 00

  simple, but it's really hard. But making sure that you have a very much results oriented focus as a manager. And we actually train and teach those values. And when you look at the pandemic and how Five Guys comparatively surfed through the pandemic, it was because we taught those values and we all absorbed those values into how we thought. And then when, you know, you had to be agile and nimble and flexible, you knew what the objective of the business was and all the managers just beautifully adjusted their business to reflect the opportunities that they could take.

• 36:56Steven Bartlett?

  How do you go about instilling those values in team members beyond the day when they're hired? Is there certain things you're doing every quarter? Is there daily emails? Like what is, what are the touch points where you're using them as an opportunity to say, this is who we are, by the way?

• 37:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I think the first thing was a card from a deck that you played was we launched an app right like within a week of the pandemic following. We had been planning to have an employee oriented app. But we launched the app right when the pandemic struck. We're like, we have to be able to communicate because we were, none of us knew what was happening and being able to be in direct touch with every human being in the business was such a great tool. And we immediately had like massive down, I mean, it was, it was universally kind of accepted as a way to communicate with inside the company. And it allowed, so I was recording something

• 37:54Speaker 00

  pretty much every day to say, you know, here's what's going on. Here's what the rules are. Here's why it's going to be safe to come to work. Here's how we're going to protect you and your family and the crew and, and the customers in this environment. And being able to have that direct line of communication to the whole company was really powerful, kind of cut through a lot of the, the fear and uncertainty about it. One. Two is that we, we've now, we're now investing massively in learning and development. We, 75% of our managers are promoted internally. So these are people who have joined us. We have people who have joined this crew and gone on to be district managers, area managers now. So that kind of career opportunity is fantastic. So if you're ambitious, if you're have, you

• 38:38Speaker 00

  know, career goals, come to Five Guys because we're growing and we're, we need your talent to, to grow the business. So being able to, first of all, we know that that career, internal development is kind of the best path to, to, to growing inside of Five Guys and having new leaders for all the, the restaurants that we're opening. We've got to invest in the young people who are joining Five Guys and teaching them not just burgers and fries, but how to manage, how to manage people. You know, there's so many different kinds of people that it takes to make a restaurant work. How you communicate with one crew member may be very different from how you communicate and motivate with another one. And giving

• 39:18Speaker 00

  our managers tools for how to connect with all different kinds of people who work for them is, you know, an important investment that we make.

• 39:27Steven Bartlett?

  Before the pandemic happened, I think I said a lot on this, in this podcast and just generally that my single biggest learning, being a young entrepreneur, starting in business and then making all the mistakes and then Getting a little bit more mature was the importance of talent. And I always say that by definition of the word company, the definition of the word company means group of people. It took me too long to figure that out because when I started, I was twenty years old. You know, you just hire your mate here. Well, eighteen years old, I started my first companies, hired, you know, my, my friend here. I met someone at a rapper event. I was like, you can be my marketing director. Went into Prada, met another guy. I was like, you can be the head of our accounts. It was just that kind of whoever was willing, right?

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Right.

• 40:04Steven Bartlett?

  Great people, exactly probably who I needed at that phase. But for the next phase, you need to, I learned that you need a different caliber of person. And really, I should have been a bit more ambitious from the jump, if I'm being completely honest. And so now I reflect on it and think, damn, in fact, every company is just a recruitment business at its core. Like, if I'd hired Steve Jobs, I would have bound them with the right culture and values. I would have had an apple, right? I would have made an apple. How important do you think it is

• 40:36Steven Bartlett?

  to hire the best people? And how, how do you go about that? What is the, the strategy?

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, first of all, I think we had the benefit of seeing the success of Five Guys in the US. So Charles and I had a conviction that even before we opened the first store, of course, we were nervous when we opened it, but that we, we thought we had a tiger by the tail because we thought the product was fantastic. So we were able to assemble people who were proven to be really good at what they did from the outset and kind of like across the board in the senior management team. So Julie Spear, who's my head of operations, unbelievable. We, we wouldn't be where we are without her. Richard Collier, who's head of property. I mean, he opened up twenty four hundred stores for Carphone Warehouse all across Europe, really established professional.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  Those two are, were essential. We would never be where we are without those two individuals. But then kind of driving that all the way down to the, you know, the, the, the first crew person who you hire in a, in a new, in a, for a new store. Hugely important because they're actually going to be making the burger and fry for, for the customer who walks in there. And, you know, I think that, you know, it's probably an urban myth, but the Shackleton story about, you know, putting an ad in the paper for his, you know, South, uh, South Pole expedition, you know, it's going to be dangerous and risky. We'll probably, you know, we may not come back alive, but if we do, it'll be glory. That kind of negative sell, I think was a critical point for us where, you know,

• 42:04Speaker 00

  Five Guys is a really hard job, huge expectation, physically demanding job. It's not for everybody. And, you know, stating that, being confident enough to say, "Look, you know, you're a very talented human, you know, professional in food and beverage, but you're just not the right fit for us." And being the confidence to say no in that regard, that was hard, but I think that was a real turning point in the business for us.

• 42:30Steven Bartlett?

  What about firing people?

• 42:32Speaker 00

  That's the worst part of the business. Really hard. You know, I mean, it's, you know, if you get it wrong, it's so painful. You know, these are people who you know, who are human beings. And if the jobs either outgrown them, or they were the wrong cultural fit, it's really, obviously, it's hard for them, but it's, I mean, it's definitely, it's really, it's a soul-crushing moment, which makes it that much more important to hire right in the interview for culture. You know, but when, in an interview finally gets to my level, I am 100% focused on culture. I mean, the whole qualification of their professional skills has been addressed by the time they get to me.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  And I am solely focused on, are you a good cultural fit? Are you the kind of person who, you know, obviously is good at what you do, but are you going to be, when we're in the trenches and when the chips are down and we have to make the hard calls, are you going to value the same things that I will and that we do as a company to make your decisions?

• 43:38Steven Bartlett?

  What is your philosophy, though, for moving people? And you have a clear philosophy around hiring people. What is the philosophy for moving people on? Because I've made, this is, again, one of my other biggest mistakes in my professional career was allowing people who were clearly not a right fit to kind of overstay their... Their journey with my company. I just wish sometimes that I had, because the net damage of that, when your gut tells you this is not the right person. But maybe for whatever reasons, emotional reasons, you don't act fast enough is so severe.

• 44:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you know, I mean, I, first of all, I think, I think you can't, you have to make the decision that's best for the business. And in realizing that this business is bigger than any of us, including me. You know, I can be, I'm hired and fired by, by my board. You know, Charles and the Morels can decide any day that I'm not the right guy to lead the business going forward. And certainly at the executive level, to me, my expectation is that everyone should have that expectation. It's a privilege to have the jobs that we do. It's not a right. And if there's a, if there's a tough decision to be made, making it clearly, cleanly and directly is the best thing. There's no reason to be negative about it.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  You have to be, but you do have to be very direct about it.

• 44:55Steven Bartlett?

  And quick?

• 44:57Speaker 00

  Quick is really important in my book. You know, there is a bit of a difference between the UK and the US. You know, the US has a, favors that quick side of things. And I think I probably fall into that category. And that can be a challenge in an environment where there's like, you know, what about a six month garden leave? What is it? I'm not sure what a garden leave.

• 45:17Steven Bartlett?

  I went the other way. So I launched a business here, then we took it to America. And I'm like, what? Two week notice period? Everyone has a two week notice, but what the hell is this?

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's really just a box and, you know, please, you probably should leave now in America more than, more than not, it feels like. But I think once you've made that decision, it's, you can't move soon enough. Because, and it's rare that someone is, that you would consider to say, I really don't think they're right for the job. And that that person kind of recovers to being a superstar, right? That almost never happens. So if you do have that. I'm not sure that I'm not sure this person's right for the business either from a talent perspective or from a cultural fit perspective. You know, it's probably, I mean, I think you need to listen to that urge because it's probably right. And actually, it's a favor to that human being as well.

• 46:07Speaker 00

  Um, cause they're gonna, whether it's talent or if it's, um, you know, a cultural fit, there may be a fantastic opportunity elsewhere for them and all you're doing is holding them in a, you're holding them back professionally because they're never gonna fly in your organization, but they might in another court, in another culture. So I know it never feels like that, um, to say, you know, look, I'm doing you a favor by, you know, telling you that, you know, not to work here anymore. Um, but if you know someone's not gonna be successful in your business, it is best for everybody to do that quickly and, um, as soon as you can, actually.

• 46:42Steven Bartlett?

  How important have you realized it to be in the Five Guys business and for the success of a Five Guys brand to have a real high attention to detail and to sweat the small stuff? Cause a lot of businesses don't sweat the small stuff. They kind of see it as being petty or not mattering and they kind of focus more on like the big decisions they make. But, you know, what's your sort of philosophy towards the small stuff?

• 47:06Speaker 00

  Um, well, first of all, I think being operationally focused is something that defines your business. Um, and for us, so our details are the standards for cooking burgers and fries and you can never focus on that enough. Um, you can, and you know, if you're not actually cooking burgers and fries, you better be supporting someone who is in the business. So that, that kind of, um, horrible disconnection that you can sometimes have of a head office, people who call it the head office, we call it the back office, um, you know, from the actual business, um, is, is, you know, to me is the death knell for, uh, you know, for, certainly for a food and beverage business.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  Um, so having that connectivity to the detail of, um, of the, the purpose of our business, which is feeding hungry customers, uh, is, is to me is essential. Um, now, From a detail perspective, I don't want to get into the details of my IT guy or my marketing team or the property team. You know, I've hired people who are fantastic at that and I don't want to be into the details. I can't be into the details of each of those professional expertise that you hire for. You have to hire talent and let them do their professional expertise.

• 48:24Steven Bartlett?

  But how do you check that, you know, if something, say something in one of your stores and say like, we mentioned Milton Keynes, so let's just keep focusing on that. In Milton Keynes, if standards have dropped because of the leadership there, how are you checking that those standards are staying high?

• 48:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we mystery shop every store twice a week. And, and we put the money that we would typically, that other brands would spend on advertising, we spend an incentive compensation for crew. So we pay out millions and millions of pounds of incentive compensation to crew to be the, to be the best of the best. And we grade, so the mystery shop looks like 120 points of what's important from a burgers and fries perspective, from a cleanliness perspective, from a customer service perspective. And the top rated shops that have, that perform, get paid incentive compensate, meaningful incentive compensation. So I'd say that, back to the competitiveness, everybody wants to get paid.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Everybody wants to compete for that excellence and to be recognized for that. So mystery shopping, I think is a fantastic way of ensuring that we're all focused on the same thing.

• 49:37Steven Bartlett?

  And if you find a location is continually ranking at the bottom of that mystery shopping scoreboard, what are the next steps of action?

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I mean, you know, the first question is in-store leadership. You know, who's, who's leading the store? Are they the right person? Do they have the right orientation? Do they have the right values? Are they, are they trained enough to do their job well? So, you know, we have a very flat organization where you go from general manager to district manager.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  Area manager and then basically the top of the business. So it's pretty, pretty quick. And I do what's called a mid-year review. I'm actually missing a couple to be on your, on your, on your podcast today. But we have every GM stand and present their store's performance once a year in June, July, August, in that timeframe. And so I get a view of the in-store leadership. Who is that human being who's in charge of that store? What do they have to say about the results that they've delivered, both from a financial perspective, most of all from a perform, from a customer service perspective and a quality perspective? So you kind of get a direct view into who is that human being who's running the store?

• 50:42Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things that's happened over the last couple of years is this, this pandemic. It's been this very tectonic shift in many industries, but there are a few industries that have been affected more than like the high street and retail and food and beverage. There's been real tectonic shifts in technology and footfall and all of these things. As the CEO of a business that's gone through such chaos, how do you maintain your own personal calm within all of that chaos? Cause it is just never ending. And we were talking before we started recording, you've gone from a pandemic to inflation issues to this sort of great resignation and a, you know, talent crisis as they're talking about, all of these things happening at once. You're a human being in the heart of that.

• 51:24Steven Bartlett?

  How do you enjoy your life and, and keep calm and, you know, not annoy your partner or whatever?

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm sure I do all those things. I'm sure, I'm sure I don't keep calm all the time. And that's okay. You know, I think just as we in the business try to keep things simple, focus on burgers and fries. I think there's keeping focused on just a few things and picking the couple of dials that, that will determine whether you survive, whether you live or, or die, whether you win or lose. And hopefully picking those right things to focus on, I think is the way I try and, and manage myself as a CEO. You know, I think.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  It's interesting, you know, the moments that I consider to be the most intense and the most rewarding as a leader are the human ones where, because I'm CEO, people have to explain what's going on in their lives. And those moments are just rich, gold for me as a human being, where someone comes to me and says, you know, I've got a parent who's suffering from dementia. I have to, you know, have to spend some time looking after that. Or, you know, I've had a loss and I've got to figure out, you know, how to manage that, that loss. And those human connection points are, and actually that

• 52:57Speaker 00

  kind of feeds back into our family value, you know, where we, and as a CEO, I have a smaller direct report community that I have to take care of those human beings. And my view is that if I can take care of those human beings, they'll, they'll do their job and take care of their human beings. So recognizing that it's not, you know, it's not all dollars and pounds and pence, it's not all, you know, KPIs that you can manage, it's not quarterly earnings, it's the human beings. And if you focus on them, particularly on the vulnerable moments, when they're most upset, when they're most at risk, and

• 53:38Speaker 00

  being able to say, yeah, you know, take a week, take them, you know, what you need as a human being is important for the business, because I need you, I need your professional acumen, but I need it focused. So being sure that they're all right in those moments, I think is, gives me the satisfaction that I'm looking for from the job of Chief Exec. My dad was a psychiatrist. And was obviously clearly focused on mental health and wellbeing and from a chemical perspective and realizing that whatever chemical, I mean, obviously, I'm

• 54:17Speaker 00

  sure he did important work in that regard, but you can, at work, you have the ability to either build up or tear down someone's mental health and being able to provide an environment where someone's mental health is protected and perhaps even tended to, I think is a powerful, it's a powerful thing for me as a leader and what I see is that that approach carrying out throughout the business. So that style of leadership is

• 54:55Speaker 00

  contagious as a value in the business. So if someone's in distress in a crew, the shift will suffer and you have to take care of that person who's in distress and understand them and see what it takes to build them back up and to provide them the support and security to be effective in their job.

• 55:18Speaker 04

  What about your mental health? When was your hardest time?

• 55:20Speaker 00

  My hardest time?

• 55:22Speaker 04

  In your Five Guys journey?

• 55:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I was, I went through a very painful divorce and went through something called leave to remove, which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Essentially, it's the right to have your children taken out of the country. So I had two young children who the court system approved leave to remove, which allowed my ex to take my kids back to America, which was incredibly painful. And my whole

• 55:59Speaker 00

  View of myself, my definition of who I was changed. I thought of myself as a great partner, good husband, good father, devoted father. I was in politics back in America, was involved in my community and church leader and businessman. And I thought, you know, all these things are who I am. And essentially, all of that was, you know, quite a large bonfire of vanities. And that was a real dark, dark moment for me. And there were days when Five Guys was the one thing in my life that was stable and that I could hold on to.

• 56:40Speaker 00

  And it really pulled me through a very difficult, dark time personally.

• 56:45Steven Bartlett?

  How long did that process last?

• 56:47Speaker 00

  That's part of the UK challenge. It took years, better part of two years were in that process. And then, you know, trying to rebuild those relationships. Thankfully, I'm in an amazing place with my kids now and have, you know, accepted that we have had a more adult relationship prematurely. But now that they're both at university, it feels more normal now. And those are hard fought, hard won, recast relationships, which, you know, are really important to me.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  But was, I was, the thought that they were at risk was, caused just enormous anxiety. And living with that kind of anxiety on the personal side, having a place where, you know, things were more predictable was, and being able to work in that way and provide for them was, you know, a real, yeah, really helped me through.

• 57:59Steven Bartlett?

  When your kids are... Essentially taken away to another country and you've got this huge responsibility of running this big business. How does that impact your ability to show up every day professionally?

• 58:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I mean, it was really complex for me because I had a non-compete back in the US, the business that I had sold. So I couldn't just relocate back to America and do my job. So it felt like a huge catch 22 because I had these court ordered financial obligations and the only way that I could really fulfill them was to keep doing my job here.

• 58:33Steven Bartlett?

  Court ordered financial obligations is in the separation costs and stuff that you have to pay your part?

• 58:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. So it felt like a catch 22. They were allowed to leave, but I had to provide for them. So I had to stay. So it felt like a kind of a indentured servant for a bit. But, you know, being able to focus on the important job that I had actually was enormously relieving because I knew that for, you know, 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, whatever it ended up being, that I could actually do something productive that I knew I was good at, that made a difference for them. And that was it.

• 59:20Speaker 00

  The anxiety of being separated, I could set aside for a few, you know, for those hours in a day. And that was really helpful. It could have just kind of overwhelmed me, but work was able to, it was a place where I could, where I could escape from that.

• 59:37Steven Bartlett?

  Did you see your motivation fluctuate? Often when we have these like pretty substantial life events, there's an initial period where getting out of bed in the morning is a little bit more difficult. It's almost like someone has messed with your why, your reason to get out of bed and your sense of purpose.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:52Steven Bartlett?

  So you always have to, I've learned from my own experiences that you have to spend a little bit of time, you're almost faking it to get, to get the drive back, if that makes sense?

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, of course. No, well, you know, I told you I got up at 5:00 AM when I was a kid and practiced violin for an hour before, before school. And I was never a great musician, but what I did find was that if you did something every day, you actually could get better at it, maybe even more than competent. And

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  I think it was something like that, that just in me, you know, said, you know, get out of bed, do the next, do the next thing, and something, things will change. You will, I called a friend of mine who'd been through a similar situation, and he said, you know, just keep showing up, you know, texting my son every day, calling, you know, every day, being as present as I possibly could, and, you know, obviously it's imperfect, and it's deeply upsetting, I'm sure to them, as well as, as well as to me, but doing as much as you possibly can to be available and in touch, and, and then you just have to trust, trust something, that it'll be okay.

• 1:01:07Steven Bartlett?

  Trust something, as in just trust life that it will?

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  No, I mean, you know, I, now we're getting very personal, Ziva, but, you know, I believe in a higher power, I don't, I don't pretend to understand it, but I think there's something much more powerful than I am in the world, and what I will say is that it helped me to see the world in two camps, one are things that I can control, and some things that I absolutely can't control, and if you spend, if you allocate your mental health and your time on the things that you can't control, you can drive yourself to distraction, and mad, eventually madness, so being able to focus on the things that you can control, and, and realizing that that's your job, you know, your job as a

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  human is to do the things that you can control, and if you, if you, you know, it's just, it's just arrogance and ignorance to focus on the things that you can't control, and so identify those, identifying those two camps, and being at peace with that, accepting that you can't, some things you can't control, that's really hard, but it's hugely important.

• 1:02:18Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I was at this festival this weekend and there was a, I did one-on-one meetings with lots of people that were in the audience for three hours and I found myself being asked over and over again how to deal with exactly that, which is when chaos arrives in our lives, what to do on that day. And people had me recording these voice notes for them for that day. So when that day comes, they just wanted to be able to play it. And what you said there is exactly what I said, which is there are a small list of things you can control. And on that tough day, make a promise to me that you'll spend a hundred percent of your mental energy focusing only on those things. Because you can't, because obviously yesterday, focusing too much on that tends to lead to depression, as I think the Lu Siao, the philosopher, says, focusing too much on tomorrow and the things that are yet to be in your control will also cause a lot of anxiety.

• 1:03:04Steven Bartlett?

  So really focusing in on today, I think, is just phenomenal advice in terms of, A, it's the thing that's most conducive with a successful outcome, but B, it's also the thing that's most conducive with having a healthy mental state in total chaos.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  No, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I think the other thing is that realizing that our, I believe our purpose in life is human connection. I think that's why we're here. I think we're made to connect. And sometimes it's, you know, we're colliding, you know, and more than connecting, but, but figuring out how to connect with other human beings. And I will say, you know, that was the making of me as, in being able to, to, you know, when someone comes into my office and says, you know, I've, I've lost my, I've lost my partner, you know, they, they passed away, you know, way before their time, you know, being able to connect with that person in that moment of loss is hugely valuable as a company, but hugely meaningful to me as a human being.

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  And I wouldn't have been able to do that if I, if I hadn't been through the loss that I, that I had experienced. So, you know, it's one of those things where you end up being grateful for the, the most upsetting things that happen in your life, because I think they're the making of you in many ways.

• 1:04:23Steven Bartlett?

  Because of what you said at the start of this conversation about that importance of feeling like you belonged and that's so evident that that is much of the reason you've also been successful is you're you mean even from this short conversation we've had you strike me as a very empathetic person who is able to connect with others. That moment must have been presumably even more difficult because your sense of belonging in that moment was was taken from you to some degree. The family unit, right?

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  No, for sure. That was that was a yeah, that was a defining moment. But now, you know, the thing about about five guys is that we have these eighty six hundred people who get up every morning and have this shared vision mission to make great burgers and fries for hungry customers. And I get to be a part of that. And, you know, I get to be a part of this larger community that has this and that, you know, winning in business feels fantastic, right? I mean, it's a real it's a real high. It's a it's a it's a drug and it's an addiction. And being a part of a community that had that's accomplishing this thing, you know,

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  we were the we were the eighth fastest growing business in twenty sixteen, I think, in the UK and the fastest growing food and beverage business. And even with that, we never met a budget that I had made. So we were, you know, we were fastest, but, you know, still behind by my mind. And being a being a part of this community that shares our our values and that are all working towards this is enormously satisfying. And and yeah, fills something that that, you know, has always been empty.

• 1:06:04Steven Bartlett?

  Some days as CEOs, we maybe we're tired or, you know, we're in a bad mood or something's off. We can sometimes not show up as our best selves. And sometimes when that happens with me, I regret it. So I'll go home and think, I just wish I'd, I wish I'd handled that situation differently. Does that happen to you a lot where you think, ah, fuck, I wish I'd been in a better mood or I'd slept more today or something?

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, Julie tells me.

• 1:06:32Steven Bartlett?

  Who's Julie?

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  Julie, my head of ops, she comes in and says, guy, you really fucked up that meeting.

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  But actually having, having somebody who, you know, to me, the, the, one of the worst things that can happen are these, you know, emperor has no clothes, where, you know, where the, where the, where the, the most important, powerful person in a business has blind spots that, you know, everybody knows about and somehow you, you know, you work around. And, and that's just hugely dangerous as a business. And having people who can come into your office and go, John, that, that was, you know, that comment was just way out of line or really unhelpful. You know, you now have people thinking like this. Is that what you wanted? So people who can confront power with truth. And, you know, to me, that, that kind of

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  culture is hugely important to a company because you can go so wrong with the emperor has no clothes and people thinking, God, we know this, we just can't tell them to that person.

• 1:07:32Steven Bartlett?

  How do you cultivate that? Because I imagine a lot of CEOs and a lot of team members that work for a CEO think, oh, there's no way I could give my CEO and tell him that was wrong or he shouldn't have said that. Or she shouldn't have said that.

• 1:07:44Speaker 00

  I think publicly owning your shit is really, is really helpful in that way. You know, so, so showing up at the next meeting and go, hey, you know what? I said this to the last meeting and that was just really wrong. It was off and, and, you know, I was, I was off my game or, you know, I didn't think it through. And, you know, and it should be the opposite. It should be the opposite of that. And, and, you know, showing that you can. Respond to that kind of challenge, I think is important as a leader. And then you give everybody else permission to do the same thing. You know, I mean, you can change your mind. You're allowed to change your mind. You're allowed to be wrong as a fallible human being, too. And confessing that is powerful.

• 1:08:28Steven Bartlett?

  That confession there, when I heard that example, what it actually says to me as well is that as a CEO, you care more about the correct answer not being right. So that might be confusing because of the way I said that. When you come stand in front of your team members and say, you know what, in hindsight, I actually got that really wrong and I fucked up. What you're actually saying is my number one thing as John is to be, is to find the right answer, not for me to be correct.

• 1:08:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:56Steven Bartlett?

  And it's like, and it's a really, it's really refreshing to hear that you're in search of truth and the correct answer, not in search of validating your own, your own opinions and yourself, which as you say, will create that culture of humility where hopefully others around them will go, I'm also wrong in this situation.

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  Exactly. Business shouldn't be an homage to an individual, right? I mean, you know, we have, we're about perfect burgers and fries, hungry customers, clean restaurants, customer service. And that's, that's really simple. I mean, it's not a, and if, if any of us isn't the right human being to fill the function that we're supposed to be performing, you know, we all should raise our hand and say, you know, it's probably not me anymore.

• 1:09:38Steven Bartlett?

  How do people give, do you have a system in which people at Five Guys could give, that are working there in the team, could give critical feedback safely?

• 1:09:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I mean, we do have kind of like the scheduled annual conversations. I didn't often, you know, it was kind of in my, you know, in my don't micromanage. You know, it was just kind of like, you know, people will come to me if they, you know, if they need to. And I think that that probably was wrong. And, you know, saying, look, we're going to have a dedicated time. And really, you know, I don't, I don't like fill out a form where, you know, so you did well in this and poorly in that, you know, we don't, I don't do that, you know? But I sit and say, you know, Let's talk about what worked and what didn't, both from, you know, a chance for you to tell me what didn't didn't work, but also for us to talk about what didn't go right, you

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  know, and and worked, you know, this year for you. And, you know, what do we do to fix that? You know, how do we, how do we make it better? So I think having a set time to talk about that actually is a good idea. And I've, I've taken that up, somewhat reluctantly, but now enthusiastically.

• 1:10:44Steven Bartlett?

  You, much of this conversation is centered around Five Guys sort of central philosophy of really, really caring about the customer. And you talked a little bit about how each store has mystery shoppers that come in and make sure those standards are maintained. Is your objective now to push the standards up even further? Or is it to maintain the standards?

• 1:11:06Speaker 00

  No, I, well, first of all, I think, you know, I'm responsible for Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, UK. And in each market has a little different national temperament. And figuring out what constitutes good customer service is a, is a bit of a nuanced thing in each given market.

• 1:11:25Steven Bartlett?

  Give me an example of the difference.

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  Um, you know, does, does someone want to be checked back on, you know, so there, someone's sitting there eating their food, you know, and they're kind of like, one of the things we talk about is first mover advantage. You should have your head on a swivel looking around for people who are looking for a solution to a problem with their meal. And I'm sure you've had that, you know, we're like, you know, I'd like some, you know, like some extra topping or sauce or something. And you can't get anybody's attention. And so teaching someone how to, how to be in tune with a customer who's looking for help. And that's very culturally dependent. Someone can communicate that very differently in, you know, in the different markets.

• 1:12:05Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things I've been thinking a lot about, because I had that exact problem recently, was I was in a restaurant, it was very busy. And I feel like I spent 15 minutes like trying to get someone's attention to try and get some ketchup.

• 1:12:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:12:15Steven Bartlett?

  Um, the food goes cold. I'm like, you know, then I start eating it. By the time they've come.

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  But you really wanted that ketchup, right?

• 1:12:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:20Speaker 00

  It's like they're really.

• 1:12:21Steven Bartlett?

  And it's gone before, then I asked for the ketchup and I've eaten it before the ketchup. So I just have a bowl of ketchup and no food. And I was thinking, I sat there in this restaurant in, in Spain. A week ago and I was thinking if they just had an iPad on the table, I could have pressed a button and they would have known and they would have and it would have helped them because I'm sure they want to help me. They just weren't aware.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:42Steven Bartlett?

  And I would have got helped faster. Have you not considered implementing more technology in and in the place of human beings? That sounds pretty brutal, but it's just the truth.

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, I mean, technology is part of the solution. It certainly, I mean, and actually probably your phone is already there and there's got to be a way to make your you this communication tool that you already have in your hand hooked up to an effective way inside the restaurant. Now, more and more young people expect technology to be part of their journey and their securing of the things that they want and need. But there there are also people who are, you know, completely opposed to that. You know, we are, we are a very analog brand in that sense. I think that there's more openness to technology than there ever has been before. So we did curbside service, which essentially

• 1:13:36Speaker 00

  is like reverse Uber, where we can kind of track your car as it approaches and we can prepare your food as we see the countdown for your arrival. And so the the kind of perfect scenario, which we often get is where you drive up and the fries have just come out of the fryer and shaken and salted and ready to go. And and it kind of like comes together beautifully at the at the right moment. So absolutely, we should use technology to meet the customers' needs and to address those people who want to who prefer technology to and also we can't be everywhere and be perfect in every, you know, in terms in responsive. So yes, technology will be a part of that interaction going forward.

• 1:14:15Steven Bartlett?

  Somewhat caught between two generations, I imagine, because I was in Nando's the other day and first time they've told me, oh, you can just order from the QR code stuck on the table.

• 1:14:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:14:23Steven Bartlett?

  And I imagine my my dad. Might not like that experience.

• 1:14:27Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:14:28Steven Bartlett?

  For me, it was convenient. I said, oh, perfect. Great. I don't have to talk to anybody. Typical, you know, millennial Gen Z era, but.

• 1:14:33Speaker 00

  Well, and we should be able to adapt for the for the customer because they're they're human beings who actually view customer service as not having to speak, right? I really just want to stay in my own world and, you know, press a button and get exactly what I want. And, you know, we should be responsive to that.

• 1:14:53Steven Bartlett?

  How much do you think the the structure and the way that the business, the foundations of the business in terms of it being a joint venture with the Morales as opposed to a franchise and generally the philosophy towards what you're building and how long that sort of time horizon is, has impacted the product and therefore the customer and therefore the success of the company?

• 1:15:15Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, of course, my experience is incredibly biased because all I've ever known is the company owned model. And so the franchise model is genius and it really works and there's a power to it and you can become really strong as a franchise and franchised business. It's really worked well for us. You know, we wrote, you know, whenever you form a company and whenever you form a joint venture, you kind of have all these rules and, you know, governance and how to make decisions and we've never even referred to it once over the past 12 years. So, you know, the having nothing but building a profitable business has been fantastic for me as a chief exec because I knew that my shareholders

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  were completely aligned and we would never have made the decisions that we did, particularly from a property perspective, without being a joint venture. As a franchisee, you wouldn't have paid the premium to be to buy a 10,000 square foot property on the Champs-Elysees in between the Louis Vuitton corporate headquarters and the Abercrombie & Fitch global flagship store. And there's five guys. It's amazing. You know, it's it's it's probably the most high profile, visible five guys, apart from the one that's in the Dubai Mall. So that property strategy was definitely influenced by the structure of the deal, taking those high, you know, high investment property decisions to reposition the brand, you know, as premium as we could get it.

• 1:16:44Steven Bartlett?

  And it's still running like a family business at its core? Still making those very value focused decisions as opposed to making decisions for the stock market or?

• 1:16:52Speaker 00

  The quarterly earnings report is not a pressure for me at all. You know, the, the, the family meets every Tuesday and talks about the, the future of the business. I meet with Charles on a monthly basis to review the property and the pricing and the positioning of the brand. And those conversations would be different with a different structure for sure.

• 1:17:12Steven Bartlett?

  Cause one of the things you said is I don't have a time horizon, which means you're not trying to build a business for three years and then jump ship and get out. So you said, I don't have a time horizon. I'm going, which allows you to build a really great business.

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  For the long term.

• 1:17:24Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And that's what I'm, I'm kind of getting at, cause there'll be business owners listening to this that are maybe thinking, oh, I'll build for two years, then I'll sell it, or I'll build for three years and I'll sell it. But what you alluded to there is that you'll create a much better business if you remove that time horizon.

• 1:17:36Speaker 00

  It has been for us. Um, you know, and obviously I've, I've been involved in private equity investments. I mean, there, there certainly is a place for that. Um, and, and I'm not saying you can't be successful in those environments. It's really worked for us to be able to focus on, you know, an indefinite time horizon and doing the right thing today. I mean, ultimately private equity wants you to do the right thing today. Um, and whether it plays out next month, next week, next quarter, I think the, sometimes the interpretation of the urgency of the investment window can be misinterpreted to make urgent decisions rather than the right decisions. And I think it's up to this, to some degree, it's up to the chief exec to say, wait a minute, you're, you're all focused on the wrong thing just right now.

• 1:18:20Speaker 00

  We could do this, which is going to make more quarterly earnings next quarter and I'll make my budget, but the right decision is to invest in the medium term, long term, and, and here's why. So I think it's, I think there is a lot of pressure, but to some degree it's, it's that, that position of, of chief exec where you need to say, wait a minute, that's the wrong, wrong business decision. And we can do, build a better business, be more successful by thinking not about next quarter.

• 1:18:46Steven Bartlett?

  What's the biggest threat to Five Guys?

• 1:18:49Speaker 00

  Biggest threat to Five Guys. I think losing focus on the basics of burgers and fries, thinking that we're something other than being burgers and fries. That laser focused on making the best burger you could for your mom. I mean, that has got to be at the center of who we are and what we're about. Treating each other like family and realizing that it's the human beings who are in the store fundamentally. That to me was the biggest inversion from banking. Banking was, it felt like to me, a very pre Madonna-ish business where very individual

• 1:19:31Speaker 00

  accomplishment and you could get, ultimately get paid by moving from one shop to another and taking credit for work you might not have been 100% responsible for. In this business, it's all about reflecting any glory that comes to the business, to the people who are actually making the burgers and fries, taking care of the business. And to me, we've, whenever we, if we were to ever lose focus on burgers and fries, that would be the end of the business.

• 1:19:59Steven Bartlett?

  On a personal level then, what is, what makes you happy? Outside of the professional stuff, outside of Five Guys? What is it, what are the ingredients that make you happy?

• 1:20:08Speaker 00

  It's the connection stuff. The painful, gritty, vulnerable connection stuff.

• 1:20:15Steven Bartlett?

  Painful.

• 1:20:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, I mean, like I tell my kids now, you know, I mean, I hope that I'm the guy that you call when something's gone wrong. You know, it's, listen, it's great to get the calls that you got good grades and that you, you know, you got the job you wanted and things are going well, you got a promotion, you know, that's wonderful. But I want to be, I want to be the call when something, you know, when something goes wrong, when someone breaks up with you and, you know, you don't, your, I mean, your job doesn't go the way you want it to go. You know, to me, that connectivity at the vulnerable place is, is the currency that is most precious to me.

• 1:20:48Steven Bartlett?

  It's much of the reason why we started this podcast, to be honest, because, you know.

• 1:20:55Steven Bartlett?

  Sometimes being CEO, much of it is about, well, I used to think it was about being seen as being perfect and strong and like you never had any personal issues yourself. I think that's probably what I what I had learned about being a CEO and a leader. It was always, you know, you've got to be um uh rock solid. But um the reason why this podcast was called The Diary of a CEO is because CEOs are humans too. Successful people are humans too, and it turns out they have all the same bullshit and problems and pain and personal stuff that everyone else has in their lives. And you've talked about much of that today. If you're if you're if you're, and this is a question I've asked a few of my guests recently, just I really enjoy asking the question, but it's there's somewhat of a

• 1:21:39Steven Bartlett?

  pun in it, I guess, in this case. If your if your happiness is a recipe consisting of a series of ingredients in different quantities, like, you know, the Five Guys fries just being three ingredients, what would be, what are those ingredients? And is there anything missing?

• 1:21:58Speaker 00

  Well, I think vulnerability is the, you know, probably the biggest new ingredient that I've had to mix into into my life.

• 1:22:05Steven Bartlett?

  Had to.

• 1:22:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I think I think the being separated from my kids forced a, you know, forced me to relook at everything. And I think also realizing that I have massive blind sides that I don't see and that I I have convictions about the way I think and my intentions, but actually there's a huge sea of unconscious motivations that I that I'm unaware of and purposely so, right? We we build our our mental defense constructs to deny the unconscious motivations, but that actually drive us.

• 1:22:49Speaker 00

  And that's what my my partners helped me to see, that, you know, that that there's so much that, you know, I think I'm doing something because I'm trying to be generous. And and actually, it's not, it's because I'm working out some anger. And and I don't want to admit that, you know, I want to be the good guy, right? And and being able to see that shadow side of yourself and to acknowledge that and to and to even embrace that and to say, it's okay, that's part of me. And, you know, that's really, that's been the hardest bit for me in the past couple of years, but I think probably the most. The most valuable.

• 1:23:25Steven Bartlett?

  What did you find in the shadows?

• 1:23:27Speaker 00

  Oh, gosh, all the stuff you don't want to see about yourself, that you're selfish, that you're, that you, I think, you know, I grew up thinking that I couldn't express negative emotions. You know, I couldn't be angry, I couldn't, you know, and, and, but that goes, I mean, of course you get angry, all human beings do, but, and that goes somewhere. And if you, if you stuff it somewhere, it comes out in the worst ways at people that you love and care about, um, in, in ways that you're probably, that I'm not even aware of. Um, so feeling that, that it's okay to, to be angry, um, is probably, you know, the hardest thing for, for me. I'm, I'm, I'm just starting to work on that. I don't pretend

• 1:24:10Speaker 00

  to be, to be good at it. Um, but being able to, if, if I were to tell little John, growing up, you know, something, it would be, it's okay to have all of the emotions that you, you know, that you have, and there's room in the world for all, for you to express them and to, to feel them and to own them and to, you know, to, to be part of you. It's okay. Um, and, you know, even looking at my kids now, trying to say, you know, actually some negative tension in our relationship is really valuable. Um, you to be able to see that it's okay for you to be angry at me, me to be angry at you, and to work those out, and that it's going to be okay, and that we're going to be, we're going to be,

• 1:24:57Speaker 00

  um, connected, even with that. That's really powerful because they need to be able to take that into their adult relationships. Um, and, you know, else they'll, you know, they'll struggle, they'll struggle those places too. Um, and it'll become that intergenerational,

• 1:25:15Speaker 00

  uh, negative baggage that gets passed on. So I'm trying to, trying to do something different in that regard.

• 1:25:20Steven Bartlett?

  That conversation with, um, younger John about it's okay to be, have a full range of emotions and to be angry.

• 1:25:29Steven Bartlett?

  Because if you don't.

• 1:25:31Speaker 00

  You'll hurt the people you care about in ways that you don't intend, in ways that you don't understand. And they may not understand. I mean, I'm lucky in my partner that that she's quite attuned. She has a, she's just finishing her masters in psychotherapy. And so, you know, being able to say, yeah, I mean, I'm getting this from you, even though you don't intend it. Let's deal with it. That's a gift.

• 1:26:00Steven Bartlett?

  What you're talking about there as well is this process of like becoming more self-aware about yourself, because you're completely right. I mean, a lot of the stuff I've been reading recently about psychology talks about how we actually have, exactly as you said, have this default to just reinforcing ourselves, reinforcing the way we think and believe and searching for evidence that confirms it and confirms the identity we want to have of ourselves. But to become self-aware is a very difficult challenge, requires a huge amount of humility, feedback, you know, unlearning, learning. What has been the practical ways that you've gone on that journey to become more self-aware? Is it therapy? Is it just the feedback from your partner? What is?

• 1:26:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I mean, I think first go through something really horribly painful where you have to reconsider everything and, you know, who you are. And to be willing to put those on the on the table and say, you know, I thought I was being a great partner. I wasn't. You know, and being able to, being able to redefine the givens of who you think you are.

• 1:27:08Speaker 00

  That's really, that's really painful. And, you know, you, you, you come up with these ways of thinking about yourself for a reason. And they're typically defense mechanisms from a very young age. So these are not easy things to give up. But to me, it was, it was. I had to do it, or I would lose connection with everyone that I cared about. And to me, it was, it was, it's, you know, connection is worth it. Um, and my, uh, I can remember my grandmother, who was one of the first ones who taught me to love food. Um, I had a very strange relation, have a very strange relationship with food, um, in that regard. But she, um, you know, she, she was, um, in late in her life, she was an amazing cook.

• 1:27:52Speaker 00

  And I could see the love, felt the love she had for me and the food that she prepared. Um, and late in life, she was in a retirement home and, and, uh, some health inspector deemed some of the food had been passed like its expiry date. Um, she came to me, she said, they were trying to serve us food that was unfit for human consumption. And we were like, oh, that's terrible, we'll fix that. Um, but I always worried that I somehow, particularly in a, in a romantic partner setting, was unfit for human consumption. Um, and maybe, maybe in my weird, isolated, countercultural upbringing, there were skill sets that was, that worked in being a, a business leader.

• 1:28:32Speaker 00

  But maybe those very things disqualified me from being successful in a romantic relationship. Um, and so overcoming, overcoming that sense of being unfit for human consumption, um, in a romantic setting is, uh, you know, that's hard.

• 1:28:47Steven Bartlett?

  And was that causing some, some form of self sabotage in the romantic context?

• 1:28:51Speaker 00

  Inevitably, inevitably. Um, so, um, in being able to, in, in being able to go back and accept the negative emotions. Um, you know, it's not up to anybody else to express my anger for me, that's up to me. Um, should be up to me. Um, and I should be able to spontaneously experience that in real time and express that in appropriate levels. Um, that's, that's, uh, that's my to do list.

• 1:29:16Steven Bartlett?

  Have you been too much of a nice guy?

• 1:29:21Speaker 00

  So maybe sometimes, but yeah, I mean, therapy is, therapy is great. I highly recommend it. You know, you cannot over invest in your mental health and that, that comes from, you know, someone who grew up with a psychiatrist for a dad. And maybe, maybe like, you know, the cobblers kids don't have shoes. Um, you know, I think, you know, now I'm, I'm vest heavily in my mental health. There's, there's an unlimited budget for, for that.

• 1:29:44Steven Bartlett?

  There's a lot of what you were saying resonates with me very, very terrifyingly. And I, the parts that really I was, I was most intrigued by is I sometimes think in my romantic relationship that I am maybe negligent and I justify it to my, to myself as because I'm, you know, working so hard and I'm trying to provide so much and I'm, you know, and I think sometimes I'm, you know, I might think to myself, well, they just don't understand. I'm doing all of this hard work and they should respect, you know, not respect me, they should be more appreciative of all this hard work I'm doing. And it's such a, I know it's such a selfish way to look at a relationship because I'm serving

• 1:30:26Steven Bartlett?

  myself and then justifying my, my almost neglecting someone by saying, well, I'm basically serving myself. It is actually, and that's when you were speaking, I was a bit scared that that's me in some ways.

• 1:30:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, you remember the film Forrest Gump where he's talking to, to his girlfriend, Janey, or the girl he loves. And he says, you know, I'm not a smart man, Janey, but I do know what love is. And I feel like I'm the foil for that where I might, I might in some ways be a smart guy, but I'm not at all convinced that I have any grasp, firm grasp of what love is. Um, and you know, what, what is love? Will this like authentic, real love look like? And it's probably not what I try to give my partner sometimes, you know? I mean, you know, actually understanding what, what she wants, you know? I mean, sometimes I'm, I'm giving, you know, some imaginary, you know, construct what I think they want

• 1:31:20Speaker 00

  and then saying, well, you know, you should have that rather than pay, really paying attention and going, you know, what is it, what is it that makes you understand and feel loved and known and appreciated and valued? And I'm gonna, that's what I want to do.

• 1:31:34Steven Bartlett?

  Did you not see that growing up at all? Or were you just not taught it? You know what I mean? Because sometimes you can see it but not know what's actually going on behind the scenes. So you can see, oh, they look happy, but you not know.

• 1:31:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I mean, I think when I look back on it, there were people who I felt connection with and that I felt, you know, some warmth and in their presence. And, you know, I didn't understand that. I didn't go, that's love. I mean, that really is, you know, them seeing me and, you know, reaching out to me and connecting with me. But, you know, looking, maybe it's only looking back that you can kind of see those things accurately and meaningfully.

• 1:32:13Steven Bartlett?

  When you look forward, then, what are the big, what are the big goals for you? And, you know, I'm, I'm not someone that buys into making, you know, vision boards and having a five year plan and all that nonsense, because I think there's a certain agility required to be successful personally and professionally. And putting your flag too far, you know, in the future is probably not a great idea in that, in that situation. But what are you, what are the, when you think about your life in 10 years' time, what will it, what will the foundations of that life look like for it to be a really great one?

• 1:32:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I think, you know, from a business perspective,

• 1:32:48Speaker 00

  I love what I, what I get to do. I mean, it feels like, it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, feel like work now. I mean, it feels like a gift to be able to be a part of this business, a part of this, you know, a family who believes in the integrity of their product. And there's no pressure to compromise in any way, this thing that, you know, that we're doing. And, you know, that feels fantastic. So, you know, I think that the team that we've built is capable of more. I don't know what that is, but I'm excited to see what that could be. And personally, you know, I think I've got a lot of growth to do. I think I've just

• 1:33:32Speaker 00

  kind of scratched the surface of the, all the ways that I cover up the motivation, the true motivations that I have. So I want to, I want to, I want to go after that with conviction and competitiveness. You know, I'm a very competitive guy. I love, you know, whatever it is that I do, I, you know, I kind of, I kind of go after it. So, yeah, a lot to read, a lot to, but, you know, I think.

• 1:34:00Speaker 00

  Sometimes that urgency doesn't work in mental health. And that kind of, you can't rush to self-awareness. Sometimes it's kind of like the bird that lands on your hand when you're being patient. So I think I've got to expand my repertoire of intensity in that regard.

• 1:34:24Steven Bartlett?

  One step at a time. And vulnerability, being vulnerable, I think is one step at a time. And it's kind of like opening the door a little bit at a time. It has been for me anyway, I think, because I was so scared to be vulnerable, I think, for much of my life, that I tried the experiment of being vulnerable, looked around, and it seemed to be okay. It seemed to help me, it seemed to help others. I opened the door a little bit further. It helped me, it helped others. And so over the last couple of years, this is part of the reason we do this podcast, is I've been able to be more vulnerable. And it really is such a selfish thing, because it's the most unbelievable way to live, to just be able to sit here and talk about masturbation, my sex life, mental health. I've got anxiety about this. It's such a free way to live. The science supports that.

• 1:35:06Steven Bartlett?

  You think about those that live most in tune with who they actually are, seem to be happiest. But when I think about the real adverse consequences, you see sometimes in certain communities who are not being allowed to live as they are, the suicide rate spike and everything. So getting closer to your true vulnerable self, I think, is such a gift. And then the way it resonates, you'll see as a leader, I'm sure you saw in the pandemic, you know, vulnerable leaders in the pandemic, I think, won. Vulnerable leaders, when it comes to letting people go, always win. So.

• 1:35:38Speaker 00

  No, but when I was preparing for this conversation with you, Stephen, I went back and looked at some of the presentations I'd done to my business. And one of the presentations that I did was called, Have You Known Hard Times? And I went through and talked about my hard times and being able to... And to me, that was a real, that was a real turning point as well, saying, you know... It's okay. It's not only okay, it's really important to acknowledge that we've all had really hard times that like break you apart as a human being and you know, make you make

• 1:36:16Speaker 00

  you question everything. And that's okay here. And that was a and then the feedback that I got to say that that was that that was, you know, that was a positive thing. That was that was amazingly, yeah, fulfilling.

• 1:36:35Steven Bartlett?

  We do have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guests ask the next guest. I mean, you've done your preparation.

• 1:36:40Speaker 00

  Yes, of course.

• 1:36:40Steven Bartlett?

  And I don't read it until I open the book. So the question is, oh, who is the person you'd most like to say sorry to, but haven't?

• 1:36:59Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:37:03Speaker 00

  I've got a pretty long list. I would say, I'd say my my ex-wife for being so blind to the things that I brought to the relationship that must have upset her for years. And, you know, and insisted that, you know, that they weren't things that, you know, I had said or done. And really, I mean, I guess I guess that would apply to anybody who I've had a romantic relationship with that, you know, that I didn't, I didn't bring my true authentic self that even even though I thought I was, and I thought I was living a purposeful, you

• 1:37:48Speaker 00

  know, life, but but didn't. But then I'd also, I guess I'd say,

• 1:37:58Speaker 00

  You know, I think there's a dynamic with my parents that probably falls into that category of making amends. And as a, both as the recipient and the perpetrator of, you know, of some trauma in that regard. And then I guess I'd have to say to Hayden and Lucy, my kids, for, you know, for the, for not being there in the moments when they needed me. And, you know, I can blame the UK court system as much as I want, but the fact is that there were moments where they woke up and needed both their parents and I wasn't there.

• 1:38:43Speaker 00

  And, you know, I'm deeply sorry for that. And, yeah, you know, and there are probably, there are probably lots of others in that list, but that's a, that's a short summary.

• 1:38:56Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for your wisdom as it relates to business and the story of Five Guys, which is just tremendously inspiring. And I, it's always such an honor to get to speak to CEOs and operators that have been part of disruption and really underpinning and sort of really unpicking how they've gone about that. That's immensely valuable to me and I've taken so much away from, from that in terms of the simplicity, in terms of detail, in terms of putting the customer first, in terms of the importance of talent and this negative hiring concept, which I'm going to adopt in all of my companies. But even more importantly for me is, is the vulnerability that you've shown and the human behind all of that, because that's the thing that ultimately people can resonate with the most.

• 1:39:39Steven Bartlett?

  Cause no matter where we reach in the, in our careers, no matter how, how high we climb, it seems so clearly obvious that when, none of us are immune from the, the consequences of just being a human being. And we can all relate to that regardless of where we are in the world. So thank you so much. It's been such an inspiring conversation and hopefully we'll do it again sometime.

• 1:39:58Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Pleasure. Thanks for the time together.