Tom Papa Quit Vegetarianism After One Visit To An Italian Deli

Veteran comic Tom Papa’s love of food began as a kid, when his dad recruited him for over-the-top food challenges — including eating a massive steak that won Tom a t-shirt. As an adult he became obsessed with bread baking after his daughter gave him a sourdough starter for Christmas. Tom explains how baking bread is like comedy, and what his fridge says about his current stage of life.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  If you're the kind of person who plans vacations around where you're gonna eat, Scottsdale belongs on your list. And look, whenever I go somewhere, my priority is on eating things that are the specialties of that region, eating things that I can't get at home. So when I'm in that area, I'm looking for the specialties of the region, like authentic southwestern and Native American flavors, modern Mexican cuisine, and as basic as it sounds, homemade, fresh flour tortillas. There's nothing like it, and you can't get them like that in the Northeast. And there is such a farm-to-table culture in Scottsdale, inspired by the Sonoran Desert. Everything is so fresh, the peppers, the spices, it is so vibrant. And Scottsdale's just got a great vibe. It's one of those places where breakfast becomes brunch, happy hour turns into dinner, and every patio has another amazing view.

• 0:45Dan Pashman?

  And explore Old Town Scottsdale between meals, or relax at a spa after brunch. From award-winning and James Beard-recognized chefs to neighborhood gems and nationally acclaimed restaurants, every meal in Scottsdale tells a story. So come hungry and leave with new favorite restaurants. Start planning your next culinary getaway at experiencescottsdale.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking.

• 1:28Dan Pashman?

  Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:46Dan Pashman?

  Tom, you've written that there are sandwiches from your past that you carry with you as if they were memories of lovers.

• 1:54Dan Pashman?

  Is there one specific sandwich that comes to mind when I read that line to you?

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Casa del Sol Italian Special. I grew up like, you know, in New Jersey and there was this place Casa del Sol. And they had the Italian Special, which was like a traditional Italian hero kind of a thing. As soon as you said it, it popped into my head. And I, they're still there and they still make it. We would save up money and we would get those sandwiches and we would just take them to the train tracks or the school on a weekend and sit there and eat that sandwich. And it was, oh my God, mind blowing.

• 2:28Dan Pashman?

  You going off to the train tracks with your sandwich, it's almost like taking a significant other to the beach for the sunset.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, yeah, you just, and you remember them. Like, you know what I mean? Like, if I could go on Facebook and instead of looking up old girlfriends, just look up Casa del Sol. The picture of that sandwich would make me just as happy.

• 2:50Dan Pashman?

  I won't tell your wife.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Keep it quiet.

• 2:58Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Quick note, that tickets are selling fast for our two big upcoming live shows. March 19th in Brooklyn with special guest Kenji Lopez Alt and May 1st in Boston with guest TBD. Get all the details and tickets at sporkful.com/events. All right, let's get into it. This week, I'm talking with comic Tom Papa. He's been doing stand-up for more than 30 years. He got his big break when he toured with Jerry Seinfeld in the mid 90s. Since then, he's put out six comedy specials, including his most recent one, Home Free.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Sometimes I really think my whole emotional makeup is completely dependent on what I ate that day. You ever had one of those days? You're like, Cool Ranch Doritos? I haven't had those in a while.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  And a half hour later, I'm like, I think I'm gonna kill myself.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Why are my eyes hot? I feel weird.

• 4:01Dan Pashman?

  When Home Free came out last year, the New York Times called Tom "a sensible optimist who thinks you're too hard on yourself." He comes off as a fun dad, sometimes with a darker edge. And he often talks about food. Food became an even bigger part of what Tom does when he started baking bread about a decade ago, which was long before the pandemic. He was ahead of his time. To this day, he still posts videos about baking bread and also about the different ways he uses the bread.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Today, we are making peanut butter and pickle sandwiches. We have blueberries and cottage cheese toast. So today, we're making grilled cheese again. BLT. Today, we whipped ricotta toast with jam.

• 4:42Dan Pashman?

  Tom's bread baking obsession eventually led to a Food Network series called Baked. His podcast is even called Breaking Bread with Tom Papa. And now, the stand-up tour he's in the middle of is called, wait for it, The Grateful Bread Tour. We'll get more into Tom's baking later. First, I wanted to talk with him about eating. In a recent interview with the Delish Podcast Snacks, he said that eating potato chips while drinking red wine can change the whole experience of the wine. Now, I'm not a big wine drinker, and potato chips actually aren't my favorite snack. So I was curious about this combo. But first, I asked him, how did he get into it?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  I have a good friend, Anthony Gilio, who is a sommelier and a writer of food and all this stuff. He goes, "Try red wine and a potato chip in between, and tell me what happens." And when I did it, it was just, I couldn't believe how perfect it was.

• 5:36Dan Pashman?

  So this is not something I've tried, Tom.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:38Dan Pashman?

  But I'm excited to try it, and we prepared a little presentation for you.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 5:42Dan Pashman?

  Sporkful engineer Jared O'Connell doubles as our resident sommelier.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 5:46Dan Pashman?

  Yes, his boyfriend Corey Hilsy owns a wine shop in Financial District here in Manhattan.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  No way.

• 5:51Dan Pashman?

  Called Simply Wine. So if you're anywhere in the Financial District, go to Simply Wine for all your wine needs. I explained to Tom that Jared sometimes leads tastings at Simply Wine, too. So Jared and Corey picked three wines, each one to pair with a different flavor of potato chip. Oh, and by the way, did I mention that we taped this at 11 a.m.?

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Okay, what do you got?

• 6:09Dan Pashman?

  Jared, what is our first pairing?

• 6:11Speaker 02

  First pairing is Violet Hill Pinot Noir from Oregon. The thinking here was balanced, straightforward, delicious red wine to go with a classic salted potato chip.

• 6:24Dan Pashman?

  Classic kettle chip kind of wine.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Balanced on.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Balanced.

• 6:27Dan Pashman?

  And this, this is just the wine, we're just tasting the wine now.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  It's nice.

• 6:32Dan Pashman?

  How would you describe this wine, Tom?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  It's got a nice, um, fruit to it, but a little leathery also, which is always nice, but light.

• 6:39Dan Pashman?

  Okay, now you have a chip.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 6:44Dan Pashman?

  Just one chip?

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Just one chip.

• 6:46Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  And then.

• 6:48Dan Pashman?

  Maybe one more.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Take another sip and see how the sip changes.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  And it did. Right?

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  It cut the acidity off a little bit.

• 7:00Dan Pashman?

  Mmm. It's like it turned it into grape juice.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Isn't that nice?

• 7:04Dan Pashman?

  Wow.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  It's all of a sudden a little smoother, a little lighter.

• 7:06Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. All right, that was very enjoyable.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  That's really nice. It's amazing how you break out wine, it's in the morning, and you're thinking, oh, boy. I don't know if we should be doing this. And then one sip, and you're like, let's keep going.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Number two, we're gonna do salt and vinegar with a Bola Rosa Lambrusco from Italy.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Sparkly.

• 7:29Dan Pashman?

  This is a sparkling red wine.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Sparkling red wine, slightly lower alcohol at 11%.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  All right, here comes the festivities.

• 7:35Dan Pashman?

  I'm popping this one.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Yeah!

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  There you go. Now it's a party.

• 7:42Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  It was a pretty good pop.

• 7:45Dan Pashman?

  Tom, I'll pour you first here.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:47Dan Pashman?

  It's winter time, and this almost is giving me like, like the red wine with like the.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Like a spices, yeah.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Wildflowers, herbaceous.

• 7:55Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Ooh, that's really nice.

• 7:58Dan Pashman?

  Mmm, this wine's going down a little too easy.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  That's really nice.

• 8:01Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Now, I'm leary, now I'm a little leery. I feel like salt and vinegar chip might ruin this.

• 8:07Dan Pashman?

  Oh.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Cause I don't know how you, I don't know how you upgrade this. Okay, now salt and vinegar.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Mmm, I do love a salt and vinegar.

• 8:16Dan Pashman?

  Mmm.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Just on its own.

• 8:17Dan Pashman?

  I don't love a salt and vinegar. And these, now I'm loving it. I feel like this is working for me in the opposite direction, which is the wine is making the chips better.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Oh, you might be right.

• 8:27Dan Pashman?

  Oh, man. After the chip, you go back to the Lambrusco. What do you think, Tom?

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was, I was loving it before. It does like cut out the acidity, I guess. The salt probably works on that.

• 8:38Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's do one more. Jared, what's the last pairing?

• 8:40Speaker 02

  The last one is a 2015. So this is

• 8:43Dan Pashman?

  2015?

• 8:44Speaker 02

  A 10-year-old wine.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Whoa, 10-year-old.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  So you're gonna get some more of that like, uh, a little smokier flavor.

• 8:49Dan Pashman?

  Is this a fancy bottle we're opening here, Jared?

• 8:51Speaker 02

  It's, it's an excellent value.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Um, all right. I love this already, just the smell.

• 9:00Dan Pashman?

  Oh, wow. All right, I'm having, I'm having a barbecue chip.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Mmm. This is a really interesting wine.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, this wine's great. It's like, there's some like leather and

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Uh, tobacco kind of thing. With, uh, and then still some lifted florals.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and some plum.

• 9:18Dan Pashman?

  Mmm.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  I think it's doing what you said with the other one. It's making the chip better.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  That's a strangely

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, something

• 9:30Speaker 01

  great pairing.

• 9:31Dan Pashman?

  Tom looks a little bit taken aback.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, because barbecue, that was like when we started talking, I'm like, you don't want to go too heavy flavor, but this has actually made both more fun. Can I taste the original chip?

• 9:44Dan Pashman?

  With our bellies full of wine and potato chips, it was time for us to get more into Tom's work. In addition to his stand-up, he's written a few books, including one from 2020 entitled, "You're Doing Great." I asked him to read from an essay in that book called, "Shut Up and Eat."

• 9:59Speaker 01

  "I could be so fat. I'm a little overweight, I'd say happily overweight, not health problem overweight, but technically, according to my doctor, I could lose a few. Here's the real reason why I won't take my doctor's advice. I love eating too much. Eating is my life. There's too much happiness in history to put an end to it. I tried to clean up my diet and become a vegetarian and I lasted a while, but eventually broke, not for any other reason than that I walked into an Italian deli." I know I'm not alone in this food passion. It's really our duty to eat and enjoy ourselves. Who cares if you're a little fat? We're all fat. You're either really fat, kind of fat, or trying not to be fat. Either way, fat's coming.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  So enjoy yourself. More wine, more bread, more cheese. Do it for you. Do it for your ancestors. Do it for me.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 10:55Dan Pashman?

  It sounds like what you're saying is you realized when you walked into that deli, not only that you wanted to eat the delicious food that was in there, but by becoming vegetarian and making such a big change to your diet that you had lost a piece of yourself.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the big thing. You know, when I brought my, my wife was a vegetarian. And when we first started dating, she was really pretty hardcore, close to vegan. And I brought her home and everybody loved her. Everyone adored her. She fit in perfectly.

• 11:26Dan Pashman?

  In your big Italian family.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Right. Until we let them know she doesn't eat meat. And my mother was just like confused, like, how's she gonna eat the sauce?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  And, and it wasn't like being mean to her. It was, but how are we gonna take this relationship to the next place? How, how are we gonna share?

• 11:52Dan Pashman?

  What are we gonna do together?

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Show that we love you if we don't give you prosciutto wrapped in mozzarella and all of it. And to walk into like anybody in my family's house and say that I'm no longer eating that, they feel like you've left them in some way. So I just felt like it was more important than good health or whatever it's doing to the environment. It was more important for me to still be able to sit across from you and celebrate. And, uh, yeah, I went back.

• 12:26Dan Pashman?

  And it sounds like you don't regret that decision.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  No, not at all, not at all.

• 12:32Dan Pashman?

  This is one of the things that I really appreciate about your work, especially in the last few years of your career, because you're not saying in this excerpt that you just read, like, eat all the most decadent foods all the time. What I hear you saying is, don't be so hard on yourself.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, be kind to yourself. This idea that we have to be like this disciplinarian about every aspect of our life and act like a, like a mean third grade teacher, it's like, nah, there's room, there's room. If you don't abuse it, you can enjoy it.

• 13:05Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  And I do kind of carry that as a, as a philosophy. So if you can keep some kind of balance, you can have a chip at a, like, I mean, literally what we just did.

• 13:14Dan Pashman?

  Right, we're literally drinking wine.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  We're drinking wine and potato chips at 11:00 in the morning when I know we both have stuff to do the rest of the day into the evening.

• 13:22Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  If we were to keep going, it's a problem.

• 13:25Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  We had a couple sips and a couple chips and you feel satisfied.

• 13:28Dan Pashman?

  Right. It's hard for some people to stop.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  For all of us.

• 13:31Dan Pashman?

  So, right, right. So harder for some than others.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:34Dan Pashman?

  You've written that your dad was a big fan of food challenges.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:38Dan Pashman?

  You guys would go to White Castle, down a bunch of burgers.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:42Dan Pashman?

  He took you to all you can eat sushi.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. You know, my father was, he would challenge us on like, on his own, like, you'd go to like, an Italian restaurant and if they had like, a sheep's head, he would eat it, like, eat the eyeball in front of us. And they had these lobsters, every summer we'd get lobsters. Having this friend would try and get the biggest lobster they could find. It'd be like, you know, 12-pound lobsters and eating that. And it was just, it was so decadent and crazy.

• 14:08Dan Pashman?

  Tell me about Joe McDonald's Steakhouse.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Mmm. This was a beautiful, beautiful place. I grew up in Park Ridge and Woodcliff Lake in New Jersey, which is northern New Jersey.

• 14:21Dan Pashman?

  Right near where I grew up.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  And there was this old little roadhouse looking establishment called McDonald's. And it was great on so many levels. It was filled with World War II memorabilia. Like packed, just bullets and guns and posters and uniforms and just packed in this place. They had wings that were deep fried and crunchy. And then the sauce was on the side and the sauce was just like this beautiful, like light, not like the syrupy, thick sauce.

• 14:55Dan Pashman?

  That's a quick side note. I always order buffalo wings with the sauce on the sides that they stay crispy.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. They had a steak challenge. This was bonding with my father. Any challenge he was, he was up for. And I forget the weight of the, it was like 32 ounce steak?

• 15:11Dan Pashman?

  I think you wrote in the book that it was like 72 ounces.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  I mean, it was big. The challenge was if you eat the steak, you didn't have to eat the sides, but I did. If you ate the steak, you got a T-shirt that said like, I completed the Joe McDonald's challenge with a cow on it. And they put your name in a little brass trophy plate on the wall of fame.

• 15:33Dan Pashman?

  Right. And especially on these wall, these, these are iconic walls.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:37Dan Pashman?

  So like to get your name on the wall at Joe McDonald's, I'm sure it was no small feat.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  It was very exciting, very motivating.

• 15:43Dan Pashman?

  Had you seen other people try to do it before?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  I did see people fail. I did see people.

• 15:49Dan Pashman?

  And you had seen the steak, like you knew the size of the steak?

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:52Dan Pashman?

  Now I'm picturing you walking in there, Tom. Like I'm imagining like saloon style swinging doors.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:58Dan Pashman?

  And you like, kind of like burst through the doors and the music stops.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:02Dan Pashman?

  And, and you step in and they're like, it's the Papa game.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  We're here for the challenge. And you know, the staff always, whenever there's a challenge, like that kind of a thing, the staff is always very unhappy that this is happening. They've seen other people do it, probably throw up. They didn't realize we were professionals. Like we were going to be gentlemen and we were going to, we were going to kick its ass. You know, you sat down, I'm like, oh, this is no problem. And plowed through it and then started eating the big giant baked potato and the broccoli and the stuff next to it. And the, the server came up, an older woman, and she's like, you know, you don't have to eat those. You already did it. I'm like, I'm doing it.

• 16:46Dan Pashman?

  What happened in the restaurant? Was there commotion? Was there hubbub?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  No, nobody cared. We were so proud. We thought they'd be lifting us on their shoulders, but we were very happy like we had won something.

• 17:01Dan Pashman?

  Coming up after the break, Tom takes us inside his fridge, which has undergone some major changes since he became an empty nester. Then later, he reveals how comedy can be like baking bread. Stick around.

• 17:22Speaker 03

  Time to cook up some advertisements.

• 17:28Dan Pashman?

  When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food. They also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done. The odors and stains have to be tackled. And I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes. And then you're putting those clothes on. You want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself. It lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house. We're very happy with it. And let me tell you, family of four, two teenagers. We do a lot of laundry.

• 18:13Dan Pashman?

  So we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear. All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day. Boar's Head brings to the deli the taste of deep fried turkey. Look, whether or not you've had deep fried turkey, I think you can probably understand that it's amazing. But making it is also a massive production. That's why Boar's Head now presents the Friar's Turkey Breast. One bite and flavor takes over. Perfectly seasoned, deliciously golden fried. A backyard tradition, available at the deli only from Boar's Head. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite at your local Boar's Head deli. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

• 19:00Dan Pashman?

  Last year, right around this time, I got a new jacket from Quince, a lightweight fall jacket, and it has turned into my favorite jacket. And this is why you need a lightweight jacket, and probably a new one, because it's time to freshen up your look. You need a lightweight jacket from Quince, because the beauty of a lightweight jacket is you can wear in the early fall, you can wear it in the early spring, but also it goes over a sweater, over a sweatshirt. And then suddenly, your lightweight jacket is a great accessory for pretty much the whole winter. Bottom line, when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. They make elevated everyday essentials using premium materials and designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. So find

• 19:43Dan Pashman?

  your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was The Sporkful. It's the best way to support the show.

• 20:04Speaker 04

  Back to school with ADHD can look a little different. One day, everything makes it into the backpack. The next, not so much. Homework, maybe. Lunch, hopefully. Science project? We'll see. If this sounds familiar, it might be time to talk to your child's doctor about a different approach. Ask about a non-stimulant ADHD treatment option today. Visit let'schataboutadhd.com to learn more.

• 20:35Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman, and I want to make sure you know about our Friday reheats. You know, we've been doing this show for 16 years, since the Stone Ages of podcasting, and we have a tremendously huge back catalog of great episodes, many of which you probably haven't heard, some of which you might have heard and forgotten. And that's why every Friday, we pull one of our all time favorite episodes out of the deep freezer and defrost it for a Friday reheat. Last week, we reheated an interview with Elle Simone Scott. She was a host at America's Test Kitchen, who sadly passed away a few weeks ago. We talked with her about her path from social Worker to chef and she lets us in on some of her best food styling tricks. Another recent reheat was about popcorn. We paired that one with our new episode about popcorn.

• 21:18Dan Pashman?

  It was popcorn week here on the Sporkful. We even replayed one of my all time favorite Sporkful episodes, a parody of the podcast Serial. It's a true crime story about a series of office fridge lunch thefts. One more I'll tell you about, an episode in which I try to go viral on TikTok. These episodes are going up every Friday and I sure hope you'll check them out. Now, back to comedian Tom Papa. As you heard, Tom grew up with a tradition of food challenges, taking them on at his dad's urging. But when Tom became a dad, he didn't pass that on to his two daughters. He says they eat a lot more sensibly than he does. And that's mostly because his wife was vegetarian when their daughters were growing up. So the girls decided to be vegetarian too, which changed the way Tom ate.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  They made me eat like a normal person.

• 22:03Dan Pashman?

  And that sounds very traumatic.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  It was time. It was time.

• 22:10Dan Pashman?

  I feel like I've gotten to the point where I, yes, I also can like eat in moderation and once in a while you go a little crazy and it hasn't been really delicious and eat a little too much of it because you can. But that is a harder lesson sometimes for kids to grasp. How did you handle sort of like the tension between wanting to enjoy food as much as you do and wanting to set a good example?

• 22:30Speaker 01

  I wasn't trying to set a good example.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  I really wasn't. It just kind of naturally happened. My wife would stop or be like, that doesn't look good. I'm not eating it. And I would eat everything that came to the table and eat a lot of it and just enjoy it. I think the lesson was have a good time and especially when we're together. You know, a lot as being a parent is you think you should impart all these lessons and you should teach them these certain things like you're saying. But when you try and do that, they don't listen to you. They really just learn by example. So I probably taught them not to be aggressive because dad looks like a pig right now. You know what I mean?

• 23:12Dan Pashman?

  So you did teach them by example?

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:14Dan Pashman?

  Just sort of like, here's what not to do.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:16Dan Pashman?

  If you don't want to look like me.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I had no idea what I was teaching them at the time. But as they looked over at me with like sauce on my chin and too much wine, they were like, I don't think I'm gonna do that.

• 23:28Dan Pashman?

  Um, now your kids are out of the house.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Pretty much.

• 23:32Dan Pashman?

  How has this affected your eating and drinking?

• 23:34Speaker 01

  My wife and I have been just trying to, you know, you're at an age where it's, it's not about how you look, but it's about how your heart is and how your levels are and all that kind of stuff. So we've been really kind of trying to just eat healthier and lose weight and be good. And I looked in my refrigerator the other day and I was like, oh no. We're the older people who have nothing in their refrigerator. Like when I would shop, I do all the shopping. It would be bags and bags and stuff in the pantry and stuff in the fridge. And I got all these people to feed and their friends are coming over. Now it's just my wife and I. And I, I remember like seeing my grandparents, they would have like a, they'd have milk, but it was a little, like a half a quart of milk and they'd have butter, but one stick of butter.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  And it was always like, oh, it's so weird. It's just the two of them living this old person life. That's what my fridge looks like right now.

• 24:25Dan Pashman?

  And how did you feel when you had that realization?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  I didn't like it. I didn't like it. When, when my kids came home for Thanksgiving, I was really happier buying all the stuff that we had, that their lunches and their breakfasts and like, I like that more than just being like, we don't really need cookies in the house, so I'm not going to buy them. You know what I mean?

• 24:51Dan Pashman?

  You didn't like it because it was an indication of the fact that like you, you weren't able to enjoy the foods you like as much? Or also because it was sort of like an indication that your kids aren't around anymore? And you're like moving into like a quieter phase of life?

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all gets smaller. Yeah, things just get smaller when you don't have kids around. When kids are around, everything's big. The food bill is big. The stuff you have in the pantry and the snack, that secret snack drawer is big. You have a family.

• 25:18Dan Pashman?

  The schedule is big also, like the days are jam packed.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. And now it's quiet and it's smaller.

• 25:26Dan Pashman?

  As I told Tom, I also have two daughters. My older one will go off to college in a few years. The younger one will go a few years after that. And the craziness of the day to day can be a real grind. Getting food on the table, driving the kids all over. It can be hard sometimes to enjoy it when you're in the middle of it, even if you know someday you'll miss it. Tom knows this all too well.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  There is an appreciation that we got through it. And life is such a fire hose.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Blast of experiences and pickups and friends and all end grades and the holidays. And it's so intense and so, I mean, you have your moments when you're exhausted and you're like, whoo, I don't know if I can keep this up. And you have those little moments where you're like, this is so great. The kids were great today. But it's all life. It all just kind of like happens. And when your 15 year old goes to graduate, it's going to feel like time. Then when they move out of the house, it's going to feel like time, like they don't fit in the house any longer. And you, as a parent, have put in all those years and it's time to not shop as big and just sit with your wife and have those moments you haven't had since you were dating before the kids showed up.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  The hardest part is that you can't pretend that it's not happening. They've been with you for all this time and now they're leaving. No rationalization is going to candy coat. You are now at this part of life. You are this age. They are that age and there's no going back. It's pretty heavy and that's why you're going to cry a lot when they go.

• 27:07Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  It's not just for them. It's for you. It's for life. It's for it all going quickly.

• 27:13Dan Pashman?

  Well, you have that joke in Home Free that I love, that I've been quoting to all of my friends who have kids around the same age about.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, my kids are gone. They're all leaving and nobody tells you how hard it's going to be pretending to be sad.

• 27:34Dan Pashman?

  Let's talk a bit about bread baking.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 27:36Dan Pashman?

  Your obsession with bread baking predates COVID.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's like when you're into a band and you like love this band and then all of a sudden they become popular and everyone loves this band and you're like, no, I was there in the beginning when they had one album.

• 27:54Dan Pashman?

  So this was not a COVID phase?

• 27:56Speaker 01

  It was not a COVID phase.

• 27:57Dan Pashman?

  Tom first got into bread when one of his friends told him about sourdough and how it works with the starter. You get a mixed flour and water and leave it on the counter where it naturally gathers wild yeast from the environment and it turns into a starter that becomes the base of your bread. Tom shared what he'd learned with his family and that Christmas, his daughter presented him with a sourdough starter that she'd made for him. From the first time he made his own bread, he was hooked.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  I love the pacing of it. I love, like, when I'm writing, you know, it takes like three days essentially to, from the time you take the starter out of the fridge and feed it and start getting into it. It's about three days before you have bread you can eat or give to somebody. And I just love that pacing, you know, I'm on the road a lot. So when I'm home, which is where I really want to be, the idea that I'm there long enough to be baking this bread and fitting it into my writing schedule and it fits my life really well. And there's nothing better in the world than filling a house with the smell of fresh baked bread.

• 29:03Dan Pashman?

  As I said, Tom posts on Instagram all the time about baking bread. So now, in addition to comedy, it's become the other thing he's famous for. One of the things that I know some people like about bread baking is this, is the feeling that like, you're pursuing the perfect loaf, knowing that you're never gonna get there. Is that something you've felt?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Nah.

• 29:25Dan Pashman?

  You, you wouldn't mind getting there?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  I think I do get there.

• 29:27Dan Pashman?

  Okay, alright.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  I think I do get there.

• 29:29Dan Pashman?

  I like that. I feel like, I like a baker who's not afraid to say that they've made some perfect loaves.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, the funny thing is that I'm still excited about it, like, you know, I do two loaves at a time. And when I break them out and put them on the cooling rack and they're just big and beautiful, I still get very excited that like, wow, look at that, these are nice. I'll say to my wife or my daughters, like, "Do you see the breads?" They're like, "Yeah, they look good."

• 29:56Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  They're not as excited.

• 29:58Dan Pashman?

  Come closer, admire my bread.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. There is that thing that is very similar to stand-up where, as good as you get at it, you can fail at any moment. It is humbling. You could be a really great stand-up comedian and just have an off night. And bread baking's the same way, it does humble you. It keeps a desire to try and be better.

• 30:20Dan Pashman?

  If you know that perfectly 100% of the time, it would get boring.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, exactly. There's so many factors.

• 30:25Dan Pashman?

  It has to still feel like a challenge for it to be compelling.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Right. Another way to do it is to change it up, go after different things. Like now I'm trying to do babka and they're dense. They're like, I haven't gotten the fluffy, good babka yet. I haven't perfected that dough. It's challenging, for sure.

• 30:44Dan Pashman?

  I'm not a bread baker, but it is something like on the days when I fantasize about my kids being out of the house, one of the things that I think is like, oh, like, it'll be so great, like on a cold day and it's like Sunday and the house is quiet and like put football on the TV and I'm just gonna like be in the kitchen, I'm just gonna like bake bread and like make some soup or something.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:01Dan Pashman?

  I'm gonna have fresh bread and soup. It's like such an iconic old person meal. That's when I feel like I might get into baking bread.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  It sounds perfect. That picture you paint is like my perfect Sunday. You totally should do it.

• 31:17Dan Pashman?

  Tom, I would love to wrap up with a lightning round.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 31:20Dan Pashman?

  You ready for a lightning round?

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Love lightning rounds.

• 31:22Dan Pashman?

  You've said that your emotional state is dependent on what you ate that day.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:27Dan Pashman?

  I'm gonna give you a food.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 31:29Dan Pashman?

  You tell me what your emotional state would be if you ate it.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 31:33Dan Pashman?

  Ready?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 31:34Dan Pashman?

  Number one, loaded nachos.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Celebrating. Whenever I would achieve something like be on the Tonight Show or whatever, that was my.

• 31:44Dan Pashman?

  Loaded nachos.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  We're going out for loaded nachos.

• 31:46Dan Pashman?

  Oh, okay. Next one, protein balls.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Tired, weary.

• 31:52Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. They're just like so functional, like, oh, you need to stay alive, shove this in your gullet.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  I know what you're saying. It's like one step away from a pill.

• 32:00Dan Pashman?

  Right, right, right.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Are we just gonna be spacemen who just eat a pill for their meal?

• 32:05Dan Pashman?

  Next one, what is your emotional state if you were eating grilled wild salmon over a bed of massaged organic kale?

• 32:13Speaker 01

  A peaceful state. That's something that is great for me. I am happy to eat it. When I'm on the road especially, that is a go-to, like a salmon with a salad kind of a thing. So it's not decadent and going crazy, it's not depressed, it's at ease.

• 32:32Dan Pashman?

  Right. And now I'm curious, what would you be eating if you were feeling depressed?

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Like a burger or like fries. A lot of fries show up when I'm not great.

• 32:41Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:43Dan Pashman?

  Next one on the lightning round. What is your emotional state when you eat two and a half slices of pizza?

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Mmm. Joyful.

• 32:53Dan Pashman?

  I said two and a half because to me, I feel like two is probably the number of slices I should eat.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:58Dan Pashman?

  But it's really never enough for me.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:00Dan Pashman?

  And so, but like three feels like probably more than I should eat. So I kind of try to compromise with myself at two and a half.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Well, I was, I was just being kind by answering your question, but I've never had a half a piece of pizza.

• 33:15Dan Pashman?

  Well, usually what happens is I eat my first slice, then I eat my second slice. And I'm like, well, I shouldn't have a whole other third slice.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:21Dan Pashman?

  Let me cut this slice in half and I eat the other half a slice. Then I'm like cleaning up or whatever. And then I'm like, well, all right, let me just eat this last half slice.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  All right, good. Now I know you're normal.

• 33:34Dan Pashman?

  All right, last one.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 33:35Dan Pashman?

  What's your emotional state when you eat an entire loaf of your own sourdough bread?

• 33:39Speaker 01

  This is gonna be over days.

• 33:41Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  They're big.

• 33:41Dan Pashman?

  Well, what if you ate like a big, like a half a loaf in a day?

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Like if I eat like, right, if I have like two big pieces of toast in the morning and then tuna sandwich with it later and then like at dinner have another one.

• 33:54Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Uh, my emotional state is I would say pretty happy.

• 34:16Dan Pashman?

  That's Tom Papa. You can find him on Instagram, baking bread and being funny at Tom Papa. You can also visit tom papa dot com for all the dates of his Grateful Bread standup tour. And catch him on his Sirius XM radio show, What a Joke with Papa and Fortune, co-hosted by a comedian that we love here on the Spork Bowl, past guest Fortune Feimster. Also, check this out. Tom has partnered with design brand Nambe on an all new breaking bread collection and they have specially designed bread baking tools like measuring spoons, serrated knives, a cutting board that catches crumbs. I mean, they have thought of it all. Go to nambe dot com slash Tom Papa. That's N A M B E dot com slash Tom Papa to check it out.

• 34:58Dan Pashman?

  One more quick note, Simply Wine, the shop that provided the wines that Tom and I tried, owned by Jared's boyfriend Cory, they're having a tasting inspired by this very episode. They're gonna be featuring wines that would pair very well with specific kinds of potato chips. It's gonna be a blast. That's this Friday, January 30th, from 5 to 7 PM at Simply Wine in Manhattan. Check out their Instagram, @simplywinedNYC for more. Next week on the show, I eat snacks with two legends of comedy, Michael Ian Black and Tom Kavanaugh. They started a podcast called Mike and Tom Eat Snacks a million years ago, around the time I started The Sporkful, and everyone was always like, "You guys should do something together." They nerd out and talk about snacks in ridiculous detail, and

• 35:41Dan Pashman?

  then they stopped doing their podcast a few years later, and now they are back doing it again. Next week, ahead of the Super Bowl, we are teaming up for a Mike and Tom Eat Snacks Times Sporkful, very special crossover edition episode, and it's gonna be a lot of fun. While you wait for that, check out my conversation with Jacques Papin in honor of his 90th birthday. I drink wine with Jacques Papin. Plus, he walks me through all of the menus of all the dinner parties that he's ever hosted, which he keeps a collection of. It's actually really beautiful and very moving. That episode is up now. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? Then there's

• 36:26Dan Pashman?

  interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me, along with managing producer-

• 36:43Speaker 05

  Emma Morgenstern-

• 36:44Dan Pashman?

  and senior producer- Andres O'Hara- It was edited by-

• 36:47Speaker 05

  Camille Stanley-

• 36:47Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is-

• 36:48Speaker 02

  Jared O'Connell-

• 36:49Dan Pashman?

  Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman-

• 36:58Speaker 05

  And I'm Brittany from Rahway, New Jersey, reminding you to eat more, eat better, eat more better.

• 37:15Speaker 05

  Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.

• 37:59Speaker 05

  While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.

• 38:15Speaker 06

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. It's the tangiest time of the year. For a limited time, head to McDonald's and get a McRib sandwich. Make it a meal by adding a medium fries and a soft drink like an ice cold Diet Dr. Pepper. So grab a McRib sandwich and embrace the tang. Save time by ordering ahead on the app. At participating McDonald's for a limited time. Dr. Pepper is a registered trademark of Dr. Pepper, 7-Up, Inc.