Sheryl Crow on the Power of Not Taking Things Personally

What do you do when someone criticizes you, underestimates you, or makes you question your worth? In this episode, I sit down with Grammy Award-winning artist Sheryl Crow to talk about handling criticism, letting go of other people's opinions, and finding peace when life doesn't go as planned. Sheryl shares the advice that changed how she responds to negativity, what Dolly Parton taught her about confidence and kindness, and why sometimes the most powerful response is no response at all. Listen to Sheryl’s new album, Pick You Up, wherever you listen to music! Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Momentous. Visit https://www.livemomentous.com/ and use code JEFFERSON for 35% off your first order. Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at https://cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Seed. Go to https://www.seed.com/jefferson and use code 25JEFFERSON to get 25% off your first order. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Is a hit in the 90s different from having a hit now?

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. Yeah, because, um, you know, there was only a few ways to hear music back then. You know, you listened to it on the radio, you bought the albums, you knew who had your records, you know, basically. Um, and people didn't just know the hits. They, when they bought the song they liked, they learned the deep cuts, you know, it was much different. And also, you had shows like the Grammys, where if you were on the Grammys, your record sales the next day, just the visibility of that. So, everything wasn't about visibility, everything wasn't immediate, and there weren't a million ways to hear music, you know?

• 0:40Jefferson Fisher?

  You think it's harder to be a musician then than it is now?

• 0:45Speaker 01

  Um, very different.

• 0:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Um, I'm grateful I got to be around then, you know, I'm grateful that I worked my way up from like van and a U-Haul to finally getting a tour bus, you know, those were the big markers. But, um, I think,

• 1:05Speaker 01

  I think it's easy to be a musician, but it's just whether you're a successful or whether you're a musician who can support themselves. And I don't know how kids do it now. I really don't.

• 1:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, especially without, without social media, I think that that's really hard to break through. I mean, there is, you know, Buddy Holly now, you wouldn't probably have heard him.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  No, and I honestly don't know how, you know, I worked with a, I worked with my nephew, who's a great young artist, and his band, and everywhere we took the music was, well, how big is their following? So, it's just, it's less maybe about the music and more about the curated, uh, campaign that each kid wields, you know?

• 1:50Jefferson Fisher?

  How long were you a teacher?

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Uh, two years.

• 1:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, do you still, so my, my mother was a teacher, lifelong teacher, mother-in-law teacher, sisters, a teacher. Do you find that, that teaching has ever really come out of you? I feel like it's-

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, all the time. I mean, I find that even when, in fact, it's funny, a couple of years ago, I went to my kid's school and, uh, the teachers asked me if I would help them write a song, right?

• 2:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Now, kids in junior high, especially boys, do not want to sit in a room and throw out lyrics.

• 2:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  And it wound up being the most fun thing. Um, but yeah, I sank right back in. I mean,

• 2:30Jefferson Fisher?

  That's cool.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, and used to, I would dream that I was in front of the classroom still, you know? I think part of it is, is still in me. Um, I too have been surrounded by teachers and, my dad was an attorney.

• 2:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, same.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Very Atticus Finch, very, very Atticus Finch, um, and an avid reader. So, like, we weren't allowed to have books at the dinner table, but now he would read from like Ellery Queen or Putthead Wilson, or, I mean, after dinner, you know, it was just, it was a part of our DNA. So, I think music for me has been a form of inner monologue, but also teaching, also listening, you know, all of it.

• 3:12Jefferson Fisher?

  What's one of the greatest lessons you've, you've taken from your dad?

• 3:16Speaker 01

  You know, it is funny, I have, um, incorporated a couple of things he said into my music. And I'm always like, dude, I should give you publishing, but like, he would say stuff like, it's not having what you want, it's one, it's not wanting, it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have. And that's in Every Day is a Wanting Road. And I still say it to my kids. I'm like, I know you want that, but you should want the things you have, you know, so-

• 3:42Jefferson Fisher?

  It's gratitude, yeah.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  It's all about gratitude, it's about focusing on the here, the now, the what you have, as opposed to always looking for the next thing that's going to feel like, oh, this is better.

• 3:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  You know, which as soon as you get into that mode, then you don't like anything you have, you know?

• 3:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, yeah, as soon as you, as soon as you put your eyes on, on something else. My dad's very much like that.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:04Jefferson Fisher?

  We have a lot of the same demeanor. And he would always say, when I'd get worked up about something, he'd say, I don't know if you want that to be your Alamo.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Oh, that's good.

• 4:14Jefferson Fisher?

  That was his always thing, he'd say, I don't make that your Alamo.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  I'm like-

• 4:17Jefferson Fisher?

  And, yeah, and so, at the time, I was like, ugh, um, I did not appreciate it.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:25Jefferson Fisher?

  But that, that became the, his, one of his go-tos of like-

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Very good, that's very good.

• 4:31Jefferson Fisher?

  There's something about the wisdom of these, these dad attorneys that we have in our life.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I know, there's a little bit of a literati aspect, like, um, you're kind of like, did he come up with that, or did he pull that from something he's been reading?

• 4:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  That's a little too good.

• 4:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, yeah, where did you get that from? There's definitely, there's definitely a lot of, a lot of that. My family has, um, we're all from Texas, and so, there's a lot of old, kind of cowboy wisdom, poetry woven throughout-

• 5:03Speaker 01

  I like that, love it.

• 5:05Jefferson Fisher?

  -our life, so we just have like a Rolodex of them. But I'm the oldest of four, and my siblings and I got to where we would just kind of roll our eyes every time.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Of course you do, yeah, of course.

• 5:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Do that. But now I come to go, that was, that was some good stuff.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  It's funny, uh, a lot of my family actually is from, in fact, as I'm told, I'm a direct descendant of Moses and Samuel Austin.

• 5:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  And my great aunt Bernice was just adamant about us girls being in the Daughters of the American Revolution.

• 5:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's go, yeah.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  And of course, none of us would.

• 5:38Jefferson Fisher?

  The D A R, yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Um, but all the women in my family had crazy sayings, like, why she didn't have on enough clothes to flag down a train. I mean, it's crazy stuff like that, you know, and I, I do wish there was a little more of that and a little less of, you know, the, um, the online vernacular, you know? The six sevens, the skibitty, you know?

• 6:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, my gosh, don't even, yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Like, can we get back to-

• 6:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Yours are in high school, so it's definitely even more.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 6:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Mine are eight and six, and so, but I definitely, I mean, my six-year-old still calls me bruh.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, bruh. Actually, my, my 16-year-old called me dude last night, and I'm just like-

• 6:20Jefferson Fisher?

  I feel like that's kind of cool, though, of like, you know, that means her-

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:24Jefferson Fisher?

  I don't know, but when a six-year-old daughter goes, bruh, to you, you go, okay, something's, something's wrong here.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 6:33Jefferson Fisher?

  It was, it was telling her to get ready for bed, I was like, baby, it's time to get ready for bed. She's like, bruh. I was like, okay, easy, let's, let's take it down. What's, uh, what's motherhood taught you?

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, I mean, um, my kids have been incredible teachers for me, especially my first one. And, um, you know, I think my journey was such, I, my parents are still married, 71 years of marriage.

• 6:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, wow.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  And I never married, and I came very close, but it's obviously for somebody who's always gone, who's always on the road, who's on this trajectory, you know, it's very difficult to carry in a relationship with someone like that, especially if it's the woman.

• 7:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Sure.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  But, um, when I got to a point where I felt like, you know, okay, God, I really want to be a mom, um, so I'm going to row the boat across, and if you meet me with a kid, that's great. If you don't, then maybe just give me some peace about it, you know? And then I wound up with these two amazing kids. And by the time I adopted my boys, I felt like I was, I had done all the living in the area of achievement that I wanted to do. There was nothing I felt like, oh, I'm going to miss out on this, or I still want to do this. I, I really felt like my decisions were so easy after my kids came,

• 7:58Speaker 01

  because it all revolved around them and not wanting to miss out on anything with them,

• 8:05Speaker 01

  and to be in that blessing. And so, you know, they, they really taught me how to, to sit and be in it and watch it and see the world again through the eyes of somebody who's new.

• 8:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  You know, um, they taught me, you know, how to be the best I can be.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  And also, they taught me how to teach. I mean, I was a teacher, but you, you don't really know until you're somebody who actually models to somebody else the way you live, what, how much they watch. And they do, you know, I watched my parents, and a lot of what I've had to unwork, or work my way through, was what I learned from them. And that's by virtue of the fact that they were from a completely different generation, and parenting was very different. And, you know, I noticed that when you're a child, you take things personally, or you make that part of your mythology about who you are, you know? And so, it's been really wonderful to have kids and to be able to just, um, watch them become-

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Humans, you know, and to get to be a part of that, it's really incredible and it's very humbling.

• 9:14Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that you, the prayer being, you know, Lord, either crack this door open or give me peace that it's closed.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Which I think is such a highlight there of praying for that peace. Because it's really, I think, what you're, oftentimes we're asking for of just having, either tell me this is where, is this where my life is leading, or give me peace that it's not.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:40Jefferson Fisher?

  What is my, we'll say, either, Lord, crack the door open or slam it hard.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Well, it is funny, when I was adopting, I had, my first adoption experience was actually right in the middle of when I was going through breast cancer treatment. And I am a caretaker by nature. And I went through an experience with an adoption mom where it turned out that she was having some serious drug issues. And her older daughter called me, they didn't know who I was, and asked me if she could come live with me too. And being the caretaker, I immediately went, oh my, I should probably do this, you know? And I was on my knees going, okay, Lord. Something felt weird and wrong about it before the daughter reached out. But I was on my knees going, okay, you know how I am, God?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  I'm gonna like, figure this out according to sort of kind of what I want, even though I'm asking you to like bless me, but I'm gonna like, let me get in here and fix it, you know, like I do.

• 10:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  And I was like, if you just drop an anvil on me. And then the next day, the girl called and asked if I would go to you. And I was like, okay, I need to learn my lesson right here and not put everybody before me. I need to get through breast cancer treatment.

• 10:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  I need to look at the signs. That's an anvil, you know? And out, that hurt. So, and everything worked out great, thankfully. That woman's church came to the rescue and, you know? But, yeah, I mean, praying is interesting. You know, I grew up with parents, I grew up with a mom that was a Christian and a dad who was a golfer on Sunday mornings, as you do, you know? Somebody who was like, if, he wanted to believe and he wanted to believe in the story of Christ, but then he was also like, why do such bad things happen if God loves us? You know? He was a very analytical attorney, right?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  And so, you know, learning to eventually be quiet and listen as opposed to like, I think we get really involved in all the praise and this is what I want and please do this and please do that. And it took me a while to learn that meditating was really, for me, how I could still, I could still all the voices, I could quiet the ego and I could just ask, okay, just show me what my soul wants, you know? You gave me a soul, just show me that.

• 12:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  And that did, I mean, it does make things easier. I'm not perfect at it, but, you know, it's a practice, not a perfect.

• 12:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, that's, Lord, that's the truth. I find that it's, it's hard for the prayer not to be, Lord, help me be comfortable with what I want to do, you know, make me comfortable with what I want to do.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes.

• 12:28Jefferson Fisher?

  That I be more comfortable with that.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:30Jefferson Fisher?

  I want to go back and touch on something that you, you mentioned. There are people who are listening to this podcast and certainly reached out to me and they've never married. And it's mostly women.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:46Jefferson Fisher?

  And they take that as something negative, as if like something's either wrong with them or something that they're wanting, or maybe it's, you know, the kids or whatever it is. And they're, and I was curious if you have words for them. How do you respond to people who say, why haven't you, why haven't you been married?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, there's all kinds of rationale. But honestly, I think it's such an individual thing. And I think the pressure that this is what you were supposed to do, this is what your life is supposed to look like, is false.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  And I think that's largely why we're sort of at right now with all this scrambling for masculine identity and telling women what they should and shouldn't be. And I think the core, at the core, we have to remember that we are souls and that we do the best we can and that not everything is gonna fit into a box. And for me personally, I have loved, in fact, my running joke is I've loved some amazing people and I've also loved some other people. I think for me, it is about love and it's about loving and it's about allowing yourself to be loved.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  And I can't say it would have ever worked or it would never have worked. It just was what it was and it is what it is. I'm very happy where I'm at and there's no shame in that.

• 14:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  I feel like I've been a really good, single mom. There are days I wish I had somebody that could be the bad guy every now and again. But I don't know, I'm, I have a much more higher, like overlooking philosophy about life now that I'm older, now that I'm my age. There was a point where, before I got diagnosed, that I had, I walked around with this idea of what my life was supposed to look like. I was supposed to get married. I was supposed to have a house. I was supposed to have the picket fence.

• 14:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  And then I was supposed to have the kids, once we were financially stable, all these things that my parents modeled to me. And that, but I didn't take into account, but wait, you're also supposed to get to Russia and to all over South America. And you're supposed to write songs that will maybe even help somebody. Where does that fit in? You know, and sometimes your life is going to look different than how you have been made to believe it's supposed to look. And there is no shame in that. So I would tell every woman that you live your life based on your authenticity.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  And we're all in search of our authenticity. And the closer we get to it, the happier we are. The less we listen to the outside voices, the freer we are. And that goes for men and women across the board. And, and I think it's nobody's business to judge anybody else about whether they're married or not, or they're not. I find my life to not be a failure because I didn't get married. I have, I have been loved and I've loved and I still love in lots of different ways. And I'm not necessarily on board with getting married because I know myself well enough now to know that it would have been really difficult for me. I think it was difficult for my parents, you know?

• 16:18Speaker 01

  I think it's difficult for every married couple. I don't think that marriage is a walk in the park, you know? You are, you are evolving or you're not evolving at all times and you're expecting somebody else to travel with you through that. And while they're evolving or not evolving. And I can't imagine that challenge. I don't think I was up for it personally.

• 16:47Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm gonna ask you the question because I get the question often. And that is, I'm, I'm gonna rephrase it in my head. So this is, this is all the time. This is, this is my issue. So people ask me, Jefferson, how do I respond to somebody who asks me, why aren't you married yet? And so I'm curious, did you ever have a response that you would give to somebody who would ask, sure, why aren't you, why aren't you married yet?

• 17:18Speaker 01

  I would say, oh honey, some things just aren't your business.

• 17:23Jefferson Fisher?

  That's where the Southern comes in, yeah.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  I mean, I will say, losing Dolly Parton.

• 17:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh my goodness.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Okay, if we can just go there for one second.

• 17:31Jefferson Fisher?

  All the seconds. This whole rest of the podcast could be about her.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  And you know, and I've talked about this in conjunction with Freedom Bus onstage.

• 17:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Since she's passed.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Freedom Bus is about how we seem to have lost our ability to carry on dialogue with decency.

• 17:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Civility, yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  And civility, right? So when I was, this is making a long story longer, but when, when I was in eighth grade, I got to chaperone a trip to DC. One of the first places we went was Arlington Cemetery. And you hear these incredible stories of these people who altruistically signed up to go defend what they felt like was what our country was based on, which is democracy, right? And all I could think was, these people would be rolling right now if they could hear how hate-filled we are to each other in the name of our First Amendment, right? I mean, my whole occupation depends on my right to free speech. Anyway, so I wrote the song, but then Dolly passed and I started thinking, you know, and I think we all felt this way.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  I knew her, but even people that didn't know her felt like it was a true death in the family. And I've been asked in a lot of interviews about her. I'm like, you know, the one thing that I think is so beautiful about Dolly is that she was able to always make her point without ever belittling anybody, without ever being derogatory towards anybody, without, you know, body shaming, without name calling. She made her point so wickedly wisely and, and in a funny way that we all could chuckle, but then we would also be, be left with, yeah.

• 19:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I just totally believe that, you know?

• 19:22Speaker 01

  In fact, I watched, speaking of the marriage thing, I watched this interview, some kid goes to the mic and says, do you think people should sleep together? Do you think people should live together before they get married? And her answer was, well, honey, I don't think they should live together once they get married.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  And that was one of those moments I go, yeah, yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  But you know, there, there, there has to be a way. I mean, we are in 2026 and we are still deciding how each other should live.

• 19:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  And I find that to be not only exhausting, but to be mind blowing, the fact that we have, we do have freedom and that every freedom you have, you're entitled to, unless it encroaches on my safety.

• 20:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Right? So you can bear arms, but if you're gonna walk into my house with a gun or my kid's school, then you should lose that freedom. And as a school teacher, I say, well, if you chew gum in class and you get caught, nobody else gets, everybody loses the right to chew gum. That's me.

• 20:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  But you don't have to agree with that.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  So people who are like on board with the Second Amendment, I'm great with that. But hunters, go hunt. People with military-grade weaponry, yeah, I'm not down, not down with it, you know? If we can't agree, then we should be able to, through our system, have safe storage laws, you know, all the things to make

• 20:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Common sense.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Common sense, common sense, right? But as far as freedom goes, I was born here. I was blessed to be born here.

• 21:07Jefferson Fisher?

  I want to make sure that I hit on, I do not want to pass her up. I would love to hear either your favorite Dolly story with you, or what's a lesson that Dolly has taught you that you've carried with you? Before we keep going, a quick note from Seed. It's easy to not like prebiotics and probiotics, right? These usually don't taste very good. You know they're good for you, but it's just like, ah, I know I gotta take it. Well, this is where Seed makes it all better. What I love about it is it's just one little pill, all right? It's a prebiotic and probiotic formulated to increase your overall gut health. Because if your gut's off, then lord knows, everything is off.

• 21:49Jefferson Fisher?

  So it's 24 probiotic strains have been clinically shown to help improve overall digestive health. And I don't know about you, but that sounds like a very good thing. Right now, you can go to seed.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson and get 35% off with use the code 25jefferson to get 25% off. So seed.com/jefferson and use code 25jefferson to get 25% off your first order. These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. And now, let's go back to the episode.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  I was blessed enough to know Dolly and to be around her. I can't say I was in the inner circle at all, but I got, I think anybody who spent any time with her felt like they were a friend.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Several things, I mean, you know, a lot of my life experiences now revolve around my kids, but getting to take my, being a chaperone on a trip to Dollywood, right? I walked through Dollywood, I'd never been there.

• 22:50Jefferson Fisher?

  I haven't been there yet either.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Okay, you need to go. But I walked through there, she was alive, and I felt the presence, her presence in that space because she was inviting people into her neck of the woods. So that amusement park doesn't feel like you're going to Six Flags over America, whatever. It is literally built into the mountains. It feels down home. You can tell, like, you can tell that she put her thumbprint on that. You know, she would show up there and make sure that the people that worked there knew they were working for her and that she appreciated it. That I find, like, I feel like sometimes there's not enough hours in the day to like even freaking brush my hair, right?

• 23:32Speaker 01

  But she, I feel like she led her life in a way where she wanted people to know that she saw them and that they mattered and that she respected them, right? But that being said, the first time I met her was in a restaurant in LA, and I was a, like, fresh off the turnip truck. And I got introduced to her, and she said, well, honey, sit down. And we talked for a little bit, and that was her.

• 23:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Was this before or after?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  This was like when I was first breaking. It was like 1994, 95.

• 24:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, so this was, was this our third

• 24:06Speaker 01

  I would say all I want to do, I had just had my first record come out, and I think I'd won Grammys.

• 24:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  So it would've been 95, I think. And I got introduced to her and sat with her and her management for a few minutes. And she just was funny, and but one of the things she said was, I've never had to walk over anybody, but now I've had to step around a few people. And I just think about her little truths

• 24:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  That you go, okay, you can be a woman in this business. You can hold your own without leaving people with that, oh, she's so ambitious, or she's such a bitch, or, I mean, when she walked into a room, she owned who she was, and she held her space without anybody being made to feel less than. And it is possible to live your life that way, you know? And that, for me, was, was the lesson.

• 25:05Jefferson Fisher?

  To the person listening right now, how, what would you tell them to this question? How do you respond to someone who underestimates you?

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Well, my knee jerk always was when people underestimated me, it was for me to prove them wrong, right? And I think largely, that's why I made it. You know, I think some people in the business can't stand no, or you're not good enough. And then other people take no, and you're not good enough, as well, I'll show you. And that was me. I always said, I'll show you.

• 25:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Mission accomplished.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, but mission can never feel accomplished when you have that, you know? You do eventually, if you are around long enough, and if you really address some of those things, like if you step back from it, you, you make your peace with it. You make your peace with somebody saying, you're not all that, to just saying, well, I value your opinion. You know, and I think that's part of getting older. I think that wisdom part, that gratitude part, that living in the gray as opposed to the black and white, there's great liberation in that, you know? There are always people that go, well, you know, when you've had hits or whatever, when you get older, they're like, well, you know, they're not writing, their stuff isn't as

• 26:26Speaker 01

  cool anymore.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  You, you kind of go, but oh, yeah, it is. It's cool for me because it's really truthful, and it's really in the space that I want to live in, but it's different.

• 26:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  It's not black and white anymore. It's gray.

• 26:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Is there something that you tell yourself in those moments where you feel like somebody is either misunderstanding or underestimating you?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Okay, this is gonna sound really, really woo-woo, but there is this book, and I have sent it to almost everyone I know, called The Four Agreements. You probably know this book.

• 27:02Jefferson Fisher?

  I've heard of this book.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Yes, I think it's Tiknahan, but I'm, I'm not sure.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  It's a small book, and there are four agreements in it. You don't even have to read the whole book, but one of them is don't make assumptions, don't take things personally, make your word impeccable, and do the best you can. That do the best you can thing, phew, that's a hard one.

• 27:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  That cancels all the other three.

• 27:31Jefferson Fisher?

  That's probably right.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  But one of the things that I do, and I tell my kids, when somebody says something hateful, you, you make all kinds of assumptions, and you take it personally. And for me, I have to go, my mom had this saying, one of those southern sayings, well, honey, he could not be more miserable than he, you, you could not make him more miserable than he already is. And I think about that, I'm like, I can't know what kind of day you're having that you would lash out and say, say something that ugly to me.

• 28:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Maybe something is going on in your life. You know, I apply that to the comment section. I'm like, what, what is it that's going on in your life that you would project such hate towards me, who you've never met, and you know nothing about me?

• 28:23Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that so much. You cannot make somebody more miserable than they already are.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah. I mean, I could spend a lot of time hating on you and hoping that you, you stub your toe to the point where it bleeds through your designer shoes.

• 28:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  But honestly, you're more miserable than that already. You know, if you're like projecting that on me, so it's a colossal waste of energy. And just those four things, I do, even when I mess up, I go, well, you really shouldn't have taken that personally, or, you know, you really don't know what's going on in their life.

• 28:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  You know?

• 28:58Jefferson Fisher?

  And that's been your kind of?

• 28:59Speaker 01

  That's one of my go-tos.

• 29:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And I've done interviews where I've not made my word impeccable, and I come away from it going, okay, you didn't do the best you could do on that.

• 29:08Jefferson Fisher?

  What do you mean by that? I want to know what you think of, when you say make your word impeccable?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I think one of the great things from my time living in LA, I lived there for 23 years, and you come in and out of contact with people that you go, that later on in life, you look back and go, gosh, I'm so glad I met that person, even when you're not friends anymore, or you've lost contact with them. But I was good friends with this very famous actress, and one of the things that she said to me once, just in sitting around a hoity-toity dinner table with a whole bunch of other celebrities, one of the things that she said, and I'll never forget it, was, you know, I really try to listen more and judge less.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  And I think our propensity for talking about people, you know, and I think it's getting worse and worse since we have social media, and also because everything is so blown out of proportion. It's so easy to join in on the, the spreading gossip about people you don't know anything about, or even talking about people that you do know and coming away from it going, I wish I wouldn't have said that. You know what I mean? So there is that, if you, and they say this about meditating, if you meditate, it slows your reaction time.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  If you just pause before you speak, sometimes it helps you to not join in.

• 30:36Jefferson Fisher?

  I support that message.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, definitely. Before we keep going, a quick note from Momentous. I have used Momentous for probably close to two years now. I'm very picky when it comes to the supplements that I take because I know that, like anybody, I need more nutrition than probably what I'm eating and what I have time for. I take their protein shakes, I take their omega-3s, I take their creatine. And the creatine is something, as you know, is one of the most researched supplements that is out there that has really helped my overall performance, not only when I'm working out, but also my cognitive performance. And I take it almost every day. In fact, I had it in my coffee this morning. Momentus came out with a new form, their highest, purest form of creatine is called their signature spec creatine.

• 31:20Jefferson Fisher?

  What I love is it's got even fewer pure impurities in it, and it's also ultra-fine, which allowed me to just stir it right into my coffee. It's awesome, I love it, and I take it almost every day. Right now, you can go to livemomentous.com, use promo code Jefferson, and get 35% off your first order. So if you want to try that signature spec creatine, the stuff that I love to take almost every day, you can go to livemomentous.com, use the promo code Jefferson for 35% off your first order. And now, let's keep going. How have you navigated that world when it's a lot of public gossip? It's a lot of public not really knowing the truth?

• 32:01Jefferson Fisher?

  What's had to be your lighthouse for keeping you steady?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  I would say my meditation practice has been really important, and also just learning how to ground myself. And for people out there that don't do those things, and it sounds like woo-woo or whatever, this is just my personal experience of somebody who had a very overactive, negative voice. Also, an immense amount of pressure I would put on myself to always put everyone first. It took me a long time to learn how, not only to value myself, but to actually treat myself like a creation that was here doing the thing I was supposed to be doing, but that was putting too many things before that.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  And to be able to just sit in nature. I mean, you know, my dad, interestingly enough, when he would talk about God, he would talk about God in the context of nature. He would say, I'm, I don't know if I'm, I consider myself a Christian, but I would definitely say I find God in nature. I'm more of a pantheist, is what he would say.

• 33:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Wow, he was very analytical.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Yes, very, very, yes. And still is.

• 33:16Jefferson Fisher?

  He can see, touch, feel, yeah.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  See, touch, and he can feel his, and I'm the same way. I can feel how very small I am in the grand scope of nature and the age of the planet and the universe. And it also instills in me how short a time we live and how important we think we are, you know? It does bring about a sense of humility, and it also brings a sense, for me at least, that I can give all of my worth to people's opinions, or I can pull up my worth from

• 33:55Speaker 01

  an organism that I rely on, which is the earth, that has all the vibrations that the kinesiology of our bodies rely on, that even doctors cannot figure out. You know, when you die, the electricity of your body stops, where does all of it go? You know, the eight seconds, whatever. However you want to analyze it, there is so much we don't know, but what we do know is that we do have something inside of us that is the same in all of us, that gets sometimes canceled out by ego.

• 34:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  It's the divinity in us that is what is in all of us, that connects all of us, even if we're born in, you know, a Muslim country, or we're born in, you know, wherever it is, we still all have the same, we just happen to be born on different continents, you know? So.

• 34:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Why don't you tell me a bit about, I want to hear about the new album that's coming out, Pick You Up, is coming out in October.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:59Jefferson Fisher?

  What is, compared to Evolution and the Threads, what is this one, because we haven't heard it yet, what are you wanting to achieve? Or what voice is coming out there for you?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  It's interesting you make records now in that you are not, you're not even conscious of what it might achieve, because it's so different, you know? You put music out and it's like it goes on to like these algorithms, you know? It's not like you're putting out a statement where you're, you've created this body of work, and it has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and it's, you know, you are thinking about the journey of your artistic endeavor and how people receive, it's, there's none of that anymore. And I even think as an older person too, you have the assumption that whoever hears

• 35:54Speaker 01

  this, there is something miraculous in it reaching that person, and maybe in that there is some divinity, that whoever hears this is because they needed to hear it. Because other than that, you wind up on a playlist with Sydney Sweeney and Benson Boone, if you're lucky, you know what I mean? But I think this record largely addresses everything we're talking about, you know? It addresses who we are and who we think we are. You know, a song like Freight Train is really about, and I do write from the standpoint of the kid that is in me, because at a certain point, do we ever go past our emotional

• 36:38Speaker 01

  evolution, do you know what I mean? You know, I think about a kid who's feeling that sense of loneliness in your bedroom at night, when it's quiet, and the song is really saying, you are one of millions who are laying in your bed tonight, wondering if you're alone. It's the sound of a freight train whistle going through a town that makes you feel a certain way, but you have no idea how many other people are feeling the same way. And the bridge, you know, when it talks about all the voices that are, you know, singing in the night or whatever, that's all of us, you know?

• 37:18Speaker 01

  No matter how isolated we are on our platforms, we still have the quiet moments where we're like, are we in this world by ourselves? You know? Pick You Up is basically similar in that, you know, you will have moments in your life where you truly feel like you're not sure who you are, or who's with you, you know, people will come and go. I mean, you may get married and divorced, you may have built a whole life with somebody, and when it's over, it's like, part of your life was like an iceberg that just floated off, you know? And, you know, that's what the song is, there will be people in your life that will always be there to pick you up, you know?

• 38:03Speaker 01

  And those are your true allies. If there's past lives, you've probably been in every life with that person or with those people in some capacity, you know? So there's a lot of introspection in the record. I mean, even on Freedom Bus, just like, who are we in a moment where we can't figure out how to get back to the golden rule and, you know, what do we do with these great privileges that we call freedoms? Do we, do we act like, or do we actually act like we're human beings that have some integrity, you know? So there's a lot of, for me, thinking out loud on the record, you know?

• 38:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, because you have something to say, you know?

• 38:45Speaker 01

  I think I have more, less to say and more questions to ask, you know? And Evolution was the same. It's like, wait, who are we when we're thinking that AI is going to be a great thing?

• 38:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Who are we?

• 38:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, sometimes I think, certainly with age, it's, really it's finding not the right answer, but the right question, and having to dive deep. And it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing with this record. So I'm excited for people to get to hear it.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  It is, there's a lot of questions. And the thing about it is, I think they're not questions that I'm the only one that's asking, you know? And for me, music's been an incredible place to go to.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  For me to try to make sense of things, you know, and, and, you know, it's interesting. I have a mom, as I said, my parents are both living, I'm very close to my parents. But my mom does not make memories anymore. She has dementia. And, and it's been really interesting that she doesn't know me, but now when I sit down and play from The Great American Songbook, she's in there. She knows all the songs. She sings with the joy that she always had. And so, you know, I get to go to music to ask questions. But music is, I mean, you talk about divinity. It is the place where I watch

• 40:17Speaker 01

  people on a nightly basis when we play, who don't agree with me, who are in the audience with total strangers, who are all experiencing something molecular. And we can't define that.

• 40:35Jefferson Fisher?

  No.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  And what an incredible gift to get to use, you know, intervals and chords and melodies to ask questions to, you know?

• 40:49Jefferson Fisher?

  I think it's, no, I couldn't agree with you more. I love music. And I think that's just the one place that we all get drawn towards. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth because, well, they're just so darn cozy. Everything that they have and everything that I wear from them feels really good. It always feels soft. It always feels like I can wear it with anything. So sometimes I can dress it up. Sometimes I can dress it down. And it's really good when I am wearing it in transition to somewhere. So I wear them, I wear it a lot when I'm on a plane. I wear it a lot when I'm home. And now that we're getting colder weather, I really love them because that means your hoodies, your

• 41:28Jefferson Fisher?

  sweatshirts, your sweatpants, it's the best. So if you were looking to upgrade your wardrobe when it gets this cold weather season, I want you to look no further than Cozy Earth. Just think for, close your eyes, think warm fire, think cozy, soft, wonderful. Cozy Earth is in its name. Right now, cozyearth.com/jefferson, use code Jefferson to get up to 20% off. That's cozyearth.com/jefferson for 20% off. And now, let's keep going. I am very curious of what would be your Mount Rushmore of music artists?

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh, that is so hard. I mean, it changes all the time, you know, as I get older. Obviously, when I was a kid, my Mount Rushmore would have been James Taylor, Carole King, Stevie Wonder.

• 42:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's go.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Elton John. I mean, those were my four.

• 42:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Absolutely.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  And they actually, because I grew up with records.

• 42:33Jefferson Fisher?

  The actual tangible.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  The actual, yes.

• 42:35Jefferson Fisher?

  But to think of them making a comeback, I mean, they're

• 42:38Speaker 01

  I know.

• 42:39Jefferson Fisher?

  I see more and more people with, with actual records.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  I know. We put out a post about putting out Globe Sessions. No, the Sheryl Crow record, which was the second record. And you can't believe, I mean, it was like the biggest thing ever, putting out a band. I was just like, oh, my God, I love that. Yeah, I mean, I have a, it's funny, when I turned 50, my band got me a record player for my birthday, and they had this text thread. They were each gonna give me three records. And they had a text thread, which I got to see later, where they argued over what the most important records were. And the arguments, like what, somebody was gonna give me Boston, and my manager was like, oh, please, stoop so low. You know, and I love Boston. So, I mean, just the arguments about what was like credible and what should be in the album collection, you know?

• 43:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  But I think as I got older, songwriters like, obviously Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, I got into the Rolling Stones, I got into Leonard Cohen, I got into people that were, you know, lyric specialists, you know?

• 43:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Americana type?

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, back then, there wasn't really Americana. It was like rock and roll.

• 43:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, I mean, and, you know, following their suit, Jeff Buckley was huge. I mean, I feel like there was like a year in there where he and Nick Drake and Elliott Smith were like people that really spoke to my loneliness, you know? And I think, you know, I've always wondered why some people come in with this weird sense of melancholy. And I think even as a child, I felt, I felt like, I felt myself in music being seen and not alone, you know? And so I've always gravitated to artists that were like great storytellers.

• 44:28Jefferson Fisher?

  How was it being inducted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? And that, I think, was it Stevie?

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. First of all, Stevie Nicks should be on, she's on my, and Fleetwood Mac were on my

• 44:41Jefferson Fisher?

  That's unspoken. Yeah, yeah, easily on there.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:44Jefferson Fisher?

  I mean, that had to have been like

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, for a little girl who had the shawls and sang Landslide into a curling iron, I mean, to go onstage and get to sing with Stevie, and even Peter Frampton, who was my first concert in Memphis. And, I mean, there's just been so many people, I feel like, that brought me along. But definitely Stevie has been somebody that's not just been an influence, but has been an angel, has been a godmom.

• 45:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Same for Bruce, I feel like, like his, Bruce Springsteen, like his, I just feel like there are certain artists that define a certain generation, like just this moment in time that is never to be duplicated. And I would even say he's certainly one of them.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, you know, and I remember reading an article in the LA, it wasn't the Times, but it was, I can't remember what the music paper was. But it was, they were interviewing Bob Dylan about why, he wrote all those songs and why they seem to spark a movement, right? And I think about Bruce, and I think, you know, his music spoke to a moment in a generation of hardworking people that needed a hero, right?

• 46:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  And he, he wrote the story of the working man. Even after he had made it and made millions, he was still the spokesman for people who came up with very little and were continuing to work hard to make ends meet. And, and I'd really look at that and go, that, that's not, it's not a coincidence, and it's not a happenstance, you know?

• 46:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  There's a moment where something opens up and you are the voice. And people gravitate to you as being someone that sees them.

• 46:48Jefferson Fisher?

  What do you, what moment do you think that was for you?

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know if, well, I think, in my moment, there were a couple of things. I think the fact that there weren't very many women who were given the opportunity to produce themselves. And I wasn't given that opportunity, but I took that opportunity when my producer left. And I made a record that followed up my first record. I mean, that record did really well. And it proved to a lot of people that, to a lot of women, and also it gave women an argument that they should have the right and the opportunity to go in and make their art, knowing what kind of art they want to make, and knowing that they know how to do that.

• 47:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Was that Tuesday Night Music Club?

• 47:37Speaker 01

  No, it was the Sheryl Crow record.

• 47:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  And so I think that, and I think that might have been a zeitgeist moment in the fact that that record answered something that was highly successful, but also had some poo-pooing around it. You know, there are people coming out and saying that they didn't believe I'd, they believed the men wrote my record. And so I think it was a moment of, I don't want to say female liberation, but I think there was a moment where, not a bra burning moment, but, you know, it was a moment for women where all of a sudden from that, you know, we had people like Alanis Morissette and, and other women coming out and saying, I'm gonna do this on my own.

• 48:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  No man is gonna tell me how to do this. It was 1995.

• 48:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, era.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it coincided with Lilith as well.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  So I think, and largely that record was written from a standpoint of being a woman, written about being a woman.

• 48:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. How do you, how do you handle criticism? How does somebody handle criticism?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. Well, I mean, back then, there wasn't social media. So I can remember reading on that second record, at the end of that album cycle of doing promo and stuff, I was on an airplane flying to Newfoundland. My band and I were doing a festival up there, which was so random. And next to me, I sit down, and next to me in the airplane seat was a Rolling Stone end of year issue. Why somebody left it there, I don't know. And I can't look at it and go, it was a mistake, because the last page was in an end of year editorial about me. And it was so personal.

• 49:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  And so not nice. And I walked off that airplane going, first of all, why was that sitting next to me? And secondly, I am never, ever going to read a review again. Never. And I didn't. I never read a review of a show. I never read a review of an album.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  And I wasn't hip to the fore-agreement, so I didn't have the standpoint of who knows why that person was so miserable that day when they wrote that and went after me.

• 50:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Or who knows what it was they read about me that started something in them that made them not like me personally, not my music, me.

• 50:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  And it was a game changer, definitely. I mean, even in the article, it said something about my haircut, you know, looking like a soccer mom. I mean, just personal stuff. And that is the nature of becoming successful, certainly the nature of becoming famous. And there's always a backstory to people that write that stuff. So that's my nature with criticism.

• 50:38Jefferson Fisher?

  If somebody was here and they asked you that question, you know, what can they, how should they handle criticism? What would be your advice?

• 50:47Speaker 01

  I think it is something that if you're posting stuff and you get a criticism in your comment section, I tell every artist, every young artist, do not read the comments. Because some of the comments are not even true comments, you know? They're bots that are aligned against you, depending on where you stand politically. But also, sometimes they're just people that are just unhappy, miserable people that are going after you. And that's not, you know? And if you're posting on social media in order to get likes, you're already asking for it, you know? Because you're putting too much weight in people liking you.

• 51:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  So I really have a thing about, I hope there will be a point where, like, my kid's generation goes, I will never let my kids have social media, because I see what it did to me. I spent three-fourths of my life reading crap, believing crap, and feeling bad about myself, or curating myself around what I thought people, what I should be, so that people would like me.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  But if it's somebody who's criticizing you in public, you know, I watch some of these debates and I go, that's not the way you carry on dialogue. If somebody goes after you about the way you look, or how much you weigh, or calls you a name, you do have to step back from that and go, okay, this is not criticism based on any kind of intellect. It's not criticism based on knowledge of a topic.

• 52:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  It is not worth my energy in responding.

• 52:27Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  You know? And that's what I say. Don't respond, just say, I wish the best for you.

• 52:34Jefferson Fisher?

  And what's based on truth? You know, what do you know to be true?

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, what is truth? Yeah.

• 52:38Jefferson Fisher?

  I do have a question that I want to make sure I get your take on.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 52:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Who do you think is the most underrated up-and-coming artist right now?

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny. A lot of the artists that I know of are starting to catch on, you know?

• 52:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Tell me.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  The Jesse Wells.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Are you hip to Jesse? He sang-

• 53:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Not yet. But I know-

• 53:05Speaker 01

  He sang on Freedom Bus.

• 53:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  And I got hip to him, because he was posting these songs that were so clever, you would call them political songs, but they were more almost commonsensical, you know?

• 53:22Jefferson Fisher?

  They made you think.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Comical and common sense combined, commonsensical.

• 53:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  They made you think. And they made you think about what you think.

• 53:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, and also, I don't, by the way, my number one hobby is finding new music.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Okay, well, you like this kid.

• 53:38Jefferson Fisher?

  I love, yes, no, I'm familiar with this stuff. And the reason I like what he's doing musically-

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:45Jefferson Fisher?

  -is not many artists are saying those kinds of things. So you have what's on the radio, which would be for club music, pop music, maybe it's about love, or, you know, relationship or whatever. But nobody's really in that lane.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:01Jefferson Fisher?

  And I feel like his lane is knowing that there's going to be people outspoken on both sides, but nobody's saying what he's saying.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:10Jefferson Fisher?

  So in the same way, if, regardless of, let's say, what leaning he has, there's nobody else, in my view, in that space.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Even trying to come out with something. And I feel like as an artist, it's hard not to put out something where somebody's tying something political to it. So Jesse's definitely one I would-

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's interesting. I was on the same bill with him on a festival, and I had no idea that he was such a great player. So I thought he was just a kid who stood under the power lines in Kentucky, saying these crazy, great songs on an acoustic guitar.

• 54:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  And he goes out with a band, he evidently, I think, was trying to make it as a rocker, probably with the same kind of music. And he wound up just picking an acoustic up, and that's how he became well-known. But he's an unbelievable musician that can go anywhere from AC/DC covers to like doing this folk stuff. But the crazy thing was, the audience was singing these songs that were not hits. Yeah. So I think he's, I think he will find his way. I think one of the things that is interesting about him is that he is very young, and he is talking about his experience in witnessing what is happening in the world that he and his generation will inherit. And there is great bravery in that.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  I think Joy Aladakum has made her way, and she talks about, you know, what it, like, in a really deep way, in a beautiful way, in a poetic way, what it means to struggle with mental challenges, you know? Especially in this day and age, where we're hypercritical about gay people, or about trans people, or about, I mean, we're critical about everybody. And we make that our politics. And a lot of people fall through the cracks, when what we're saying is, our country is supposed to be free, and you should get to live however, and you should be created equal, but then we're saying, but not everybody, you know? So she's been really beautiful about that.

• 56:11Jefferson Fisher?

  What's her name again?

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Her name is Joy Aladakum.

• 56:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Insane voice. She's had a couple of minor hits, I would say maybe at Americana.

• 56:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, cool. I'll check them out.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, beautiful. She's great. There's so many great, yeah, artists out there.

• 56:25Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm telling you.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  I mean, there's a propensity with everything, where there's money being made, like, let's just say you have, like, years ago, Billie Eilish, and then Every Girl that came out, sounded like Billie Eilish for a while.

• 56:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Then it became Chaparralona, Every Girl, you know? And same with-

• 56:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Sabrina Carpenter.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Sabrina Carpenter, yeah. And then it's, but not to downplay them, they're great songwriters, great musicians.

• 56:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  But then there'll be somebody that sticks out as being different, you know?

• 56:50Jefferson Fisher?

  My two right now, he's not, he's not at all, I'd say new.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:54Jefferson Fisher?

  You've probably heard of Marcus King.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I love Marcus. He's amazing.

• 56:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Holy smokes. I have not met him yet. But his music-

• 57:00Speaker 01

  I've met him, I know him.

• 57:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Blew me away.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  He is as beautiful-

• 57:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Is he?

• 57:06Speaker 01

  -as his music is, and as his art is, and as his, you know, all of it.

• 57:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Unreal. Even just his guitar ability.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  He's, to me, there are some people, when you listen to them, and tell me if you think I'm crazy, that you just go, oh, wait a minute. So he's got to be the reincarnation of Stevie Ray Vaughan. Or he's got to-

• 57:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  You know, there's something in there that you didn't just learn, dude.

• 57:25Jefferson Fisher?

  I feel like that also with, like, actors and actresses.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:28Jefferson Fisher?

  You're like, you've seen those comparisons, where they go, like, somebody who's famous today compared with somebody who was famous, like, in the 20s, some, they look almost identical-

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:36Jefferson Fisher?

  -kind of thing. Like, there's something, something there. But yeah, his stuff is unbelievable. There's also this smaller band, their name is called Penelope Road.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Okay. I'll check them out.

• 57:46Jefferson Fisher?

  You got to check them out. Little band, and they put out some awesome covers in their backyard. It's just a group of guys.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Penelope Road.

• 57:54Jefferson Fisher?

  They all look like they're early 20s.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:57Jefferson Fisher?

  And they're just insanely talented and awesome. That's been, I've been jamming, I've been jamming to them, that they've been kind of my thing for a while.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  I will tell you, there is a kid that I worked with last year. I got to produce him, but he came in with a bunch of songs and sat down and played them, and he absolutely blew my mind. And he feels to me like a little bit of a reincarnation of Jeff Buckley meets Elliot Smith, meets-

• 58:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, wow.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  -meets Android Paranoid.

• 58:38Jefferson Fisher?

  It's there.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  It's there.

• 58:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  I'll take a minute to warn him. Ah! Radiohead.

• 58:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes, okay.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  I did it. But he's just put a record out, in fact, he put the record out just recently, that he and I did together, and it is absolutely beautiful.

• 58:53Jefferson Fisher?

  What's his name?

• 58:53Speaker 01

  His name is Ellery Harper. And-

• 58:58Jefferson Fisher?

  We'll give it a listen.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  His stuff is, it's, I mean, I brought in musicians, and people left thanking me for inviting them to play on his record.

• 59:09Jefferson Fisher?

  That's cool.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  And I've never had that happen.

• 59:11Jefferson Fisher?

  That's awesome.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  So people should check it out.

• 59:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Elliot Harper?

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Ellery Harper.

• 59:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Ellery.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Ellery Harper.

• 59:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Truly unique, amazing. And he will be around for a long time, but this record is so beautiful.

• 59:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, that's awesome. Well, thank you for just what you do.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, thank you.

• 59:27Jefferson Fisher?

  And for the moment.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  That's the quickest interview, I feel like it just went so fast.

• 59:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  I feel like you need to send me a bill.

• 59:35Jefferson Fisher?

  It's truly been awesome to get to talk to a lot of musicians. And there's the ones that, I would certainly say you are absolutely one of them, that you go, this person is the real, is the real deal. Knows their stuff and loves their craft. So thank you, really, for coming on.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thanks for having me.

• 59:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, pick you up, coming out in October.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  October 9th.

• 1:00:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Awesome. Go listen.