AHFG Book Club: Jenny Williamson's Enemy of My Dreams

In a very special episode, Liv and Genn McMenemy of Ancient History Fangirl interview debut author Jenny Williamson https://www.jennywilliamsonauthor.com/. Find Enemy of My Dreams wherever you get your books. Submit to the quarterly Q&A at mythsbaby.com/questions http://mythsbaby.com/questions and get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  I'm Jen McMenamy from the Ancient History Fangirl Podcast.

• 1:44Liv Albert?

  And I am Liv Albert from Let's Talk About Myths, Baby. I said I would do it, and I did it, and it was terrible. Go ahead, Jen.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  And today, we are joined by a very special debut author. Liv and I are going to co-host this joint episode. We are delighted to welcome a brand-new rising star in the romanticy genre. She writes spicy, sultry, sexy scenes, morally gray heroes, hot mess heroines, and y'all, I have never blushed so hard while reading a book. Join us in welcoming-

• 2:22Liv Albert?

  You're a southern lady now.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Oh, bless your heart, Liv.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Now, join us in welcoming, my accent is literally all over the place and it's never gonna stop. Now, join us in welcoming Jenny Williamson, author of Enemy of My Dreams, to the podcast.

• 2:42Liv Albert?

  And name you've never heard before. She's a brand new debut author.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  Hi, thanks for having me.

• 2:51Liv Albert?

  Oh, yes. Thank you for, thank you for coming on our show.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  You're welcome.

• 2:55Liv Albert?

  Speaking with us today. Yeah.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  You're welcome. I'm so honored to be asked.

• 3:01Liv Albert?

  Oh, and we are honored to have you.

• 3:03Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  We are. I knew I needed some extra backup for our February Ancient History Fangirl Book Club pick. So I asked Liv if she would kindly come on and help me interview this totally unknown, brand new author.

• 3:18Liv Albert?

  And though I have never, I've never met this author at all before, I just happened to have read the book like a good five or six months ago now. I was just real lucky that I got a crazy, crazy advanced copy.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:35Liv Albert?

  Jenny's like, okay, we get it, guys.

• 3:37Speaker 03

  No, I'm really enjoying this. Let's continue.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Well, Jenny, I'm glad to hear you say that because I'm gonna start right out of the gate.

• 3:45Speaker 03

  Oh, good.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  With the tough questions. I could do this in my sleep, but my first question for you, Jenny, is, can you give us the elevator pitch for Enemy of My Dreams?

• 3:57Speaker 03

  So Jen has asked me this on two, several different episodes.

• 4:02Liv Albert?

  But you've never been on this show before. I don't know why you're trying to pretend like you're a regular.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  I dreamed it.

• 4:07Liv Albert?

  But fine.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  I just met the two of you.

• 4:10Liv Albert?

  Yes, exactly.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  Jen would have no way of knowing that this is a difficult question for me. Okay, wait, I have a copy of my book in front of me. And so.

• 4:22Speaker 03

  Can I really just read what's on the shelf?

• 4:23Liv Albert?

  You can't read the copy. No, you can't read the copy.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Jen says I can.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  It's like that shout one I've used on your website.

• 4:31Liv Albert?

  Well, but I mean, you have, then you have to have the it memorized, basically.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, remember, remember, Thea, we had Thea on, Thea Guazan on earlier to talk about her book, The Hurricane Wars, and I asked her the same question.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  I have zero memory of this because I was not on that.

• 4:46Liv Albert?

  You've never been on the show before. That's exactly right. Yeah.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Well, I'm gonna tell, I'm gonna remind both of our listeners.

• 4:52Speaker 03

  This is going great already.

• 4:53Liv Albert?

  Both of our listeners.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Both of our listeners, myths, baby listeners, and fangirl listeners.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  Oh, no, just the two people who are listening to this right now.

• 5:01Liv Albert?

  There's two listeners.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  I'm keeping all of this.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  To the two people listening, but anyway, I'm just gonna remind, I'm gonna remind listeners that one of the best things she advised Jenny to do as a debut author and for all authors is to know your elevator pitch to be able to pitch your book. Now, we did this months ago back in October, and I warned Jenny I would ask her this.

• 5:22Speaker 03

  I am getting scolded right now.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Excuse me, a debut author.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  Hardcore scolded.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  I'm gonna talk to your publicist about this. This is unacceptable behavior.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Jen!

• 5:34Speaker 02

  You need some media training, girl.

• 5:36Speaker 03

  Is this how you treat all the authors who come on your show?

• 5:39Liv Albert?

  Well, I know you're not experienced with podcasting, Jenny, but I just have to tell you that like, you know, sometimes you really just need to, to be able to go with the flow and you're gonna need to be able to answer these questions.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  You have to listen.

• 5:54Liv Albert?

  So, for, as, as this is your, clearly your first podcast to promote this book, you've never been on a podcast before.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 5:59Liv Albert?

  So, we're gonna just, we're really, we're trying to ease you into it. We're doing you a favor for all of your future podcasting goals, which I know you have.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is a softball question.

• 6:09Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  You guys are doing so well. Right. Okay, wait. So my elevator pitch, and every time Jen asks me this question, which she has never asked me before, I get all flappy.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  No, never.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  So, in the last days of the Roman Empire, a brutal Gothic warlord and a hot mess, potentially tipsy heroine forge a dangerous alliance to take down the Roman Empire.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  So why do you think readers will love this book?

• 6:37Speaker 03

  Well, I think that, um, I think that readers will love this book because, um, it's a real enemies to lovers, which means that these are two characters who really have a reason, you know, like to, to be enemies. Like they're from a sort of, they exist on two opposite sides of this gulf of like, you know, history and culture and what, what their people have, you know, done to each other over the centuries. And they're both real big mad at each other, right out of the gate, which I find hot. Um, and I mean, and they, and they're at cross purposes personally with their own goals. And I'm not, I'm not going to go into too much detail because I don't want to spoil it with you guys. Um, but it is really fun that way. And I also think, you know, like their personalities

• 7:17Speaker 03

  are kind of, are kind of, um, sparky together, which I really enjoy. Um, it's got a lot of fun things that I love. Like there's kind of a found family trope going on where, um, my princess heroine Julia kind of finds belonging in a place she doesn't expect it. There's a lot of tipsiness. There's a lot of, um, plotting revolutions tipsy, which I think is, I think I try to have fun with it, you know? And, um, I think that's why people will love it.

• 7:44Liv Albert?

  I will say you wrote Tipsy very well. And another thing I know about you from the little time that we've spoken on this podcast is that you are not a big drinker of, of wine.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  She's a teetotaler.

• 7:57Liv Albert?

  Absolutely. I, I can't say I've ever seen you with a glass of prosecco in your hand.

• 8:01Speaker 03

  Never, never.

• 8:02Liv Albert?

  And so, you know, how did you go about writing, uh, Tipsy in such, such a realistic way?

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Well, Liv, it might surprise you to hear that I enjoy imbibing a glass or two every so often.

• 8:17Liv Albert?

  Do you really?

• 8:18Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Shocking. I thought you were a teetotaler. I thought you never drank.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  I mean, I think that I really, I, I wouldn't say that Julia is a self-insert.

• 8:30Speaker 03

  I wouldn't go that far.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  In fact, maybe Alaric is a self-insert, you know what?

• 8:36Liv Albert?

  I think you're both of them. I think that's what makes it a great, with two great characters, is that each of them are, you know, parts of you.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, this book is me talking to myself. Messed up character.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  That's what it is.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  But I think that I have kind of thought of it this way sometimes where I'm like, my heroine is based on several different real-life characters and, you know, people in the ancient world. But she's, there's also quite a bit of me circa, I don't know, 2015, running around Bushwick, going to all the bars. Like, there's, there's some of that, too, you know?

• 9:16Liv Albert?

  I think it can be both. But, okay, you actually led to a question that I've been, well, that we've kind of, no, we, excuse me, we haven't, because we, we don't know each other and you've never been on a podcast.

• 9:24Speaker 03

  That's right. We have never met, just in case.

• 9:26Liv Albert?

  I feel like I've, I've had these dreams of, of conversations with you in the past. And so I would love to see if, if maybe there's a, this is a hint of reality in those dreams. And so in those dreams, you've, you've talked a little bit about how, you know, this book is, it's romanticy, so it does have those fantasy elements, but I also know, not at all that, that you are, you know, knowledgeable on, on ancient history, because why would you be? But in- instead, I think maybe you've, you've learned a little bit for this book alone about ancient Rome. So how much of it is ancient, is real ancient Rome? How much of it is your own fantastical imagination? Like, how concerned were you with that?

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Well, I like to refer to it as an occasionally true story.

• 10:11Liv Albert?

  Like, yeah, good.

• 10:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think that what's funny about this, when I started writing this book, I knew basically next to nothing, you know? And I was just having a fun time and writing my own historical fanfiction. And I kind of figured this might, I would love to get this published someday, but I wasn't necessarily looking to write a extremely historical, historically accurate picture of what happened, because I wanted to make Alaric of the Visigoths the hero of a romance novel, which in itself is a non-historical concept. So.

• 10:43Liv Albert?

  Especially when you look at like any kind of images of him. Sorry.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 10:47Liv Albert?

  He's absolutely sexy in reality.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  I am, I am gonna say.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  He has the world's best mustache and I'm gonna say this. The image that frequently comes up when you Google him is actually Alaric the second, because I know that Jenny did her research and checked that. However, I haven't found many images of Alaric the first, so I always go with Alaric the second.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  That's because he doesn't exist.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  It's gonna be that glorious.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  Well, look.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  If I'm gonna ride a mustache, it might as well be that mustache.

• 11:22Liv Albert?

  Now, okay, this is not, this is incredibly vital, important question. Yeah.

• 11:29Liv Albert?

  No, but this, it does lead to, lead to another incredibly important question. And that is, can you remind me if, if your Alaric has a mustache?

• 11:36Speaker 03

  No.

• 11:37Liv Albert?

  No, okay, great, great, just, just checking. Just because of the historical accuracy.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  Right, so that's your answer to the historical accuracy question?

• 11:46Liv Albert?

  It's not completely accurate because he does not have a mustache to ride.

• 11:51Speaker 03

  Well, okay, in the book, he doesn't, in the book, he doesn't have a mustache. In the picture that will come up when you Google him, he does have a mustache. Is that picture actually of him? No.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  So this leads really nicely into my.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Listen, he could have whatever you want. It's a romance novel. I'm not gonna slam anyone's kink in what they like.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Um, are barbarians quote unquote in the ancient Roman Empire associated with mustaches historically? Yes.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Hot.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  That is the tripartite answer.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Moving on.

• 12:28Liv Albert?

  Tripartite.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  I need to rein control of this interview back in.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  Okay. You're the ideal person to do that.

• 12:43Liv Albert?

  That blew out my microphone.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Excuse me, I really don't appreciate you questioning my professionalism. If you do it one more time, I will have to contact your publicist and request that before you do any more interviews, you get media training.

• 12:57Speaker 03

  Are you gonna fake me?

• 13:00Speaker 02

  This is, this is really going off the rails and this is not the kind of-

• 13:03Speaker 03

  It's like literally five minutes in.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Listen, this is not the kind of podcast I run. This is not like that one time in the podcast where Brutus, whose name I forget, but I'm gonna call her Portia, literally said to Brutus, "Oh, boy, get the horse phallus. I want to really talk this revolution out."

• 13:19Speaker 03

  I don't think that's historically attested.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Moving on, I want to get back to this question I had. So, tell us where the idea for a romance between Alaric of the Visigoths and a Roman princess came from. Like, where's that from?

• 13:34Speaker 03

  It's from my head, Jen.

• 13:39Liv Albert?

  Okay, but no, I mean, that's obviously, but like, because like, we understand how fiction works, Jenny, thank you. You are the debut author, but like-

• 13:47Speaker 03

  We're doing so well, yes.

• 13:49Liv Albert?

  Some of us have a degree in English.

• 13:53Liv Albert?

  But, no, but like, so, my, the original, when I first started trying to write a novel, obviously, which has never come to fruition because you are the first debut author of fiction among us, but when I, when it came to me, like, I think, I swear, I just like, maybe was just like browsing random Greek mythology and I found like some weird little thing between Cadmus and Harmonia and I was like, oh, I'm obsessed with these characters. I'm obsessed with like writing a story about them, like, but Alaric of the Visigoths is truly like so random to me, so like, how, how did you find Alaric and why is, why did he become like your guy of the mustache rides?

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, why does he make a great hero?

• 14:36Liv Albert?

  It can't be because of his mustache, because you didn't write that into your book.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  You didn't. You have to pick something else.

• 14:42Speaker 03

  Um, so I, it is, it is not historically attested whether he had a mustache or not. We don't know what he looked like. But, okay, so I do have a story about this. So I have a friend who I possibly like, you know, one of my first friends, we met in preschool and um, she was over at my house one night and she is a Latin linguist. And we were just talking about random historical things and she wrote this quote on a napkin. Like she wrote this Latin phrase on a napkin and then she translated it for me and it was, um, I'm always bad at remembering this verbatim, but it was like, "I grind you down with my bare hands, Rome.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  Give up your weapons and hide." And it was just so like visceral and, you know, kind of like scary. And I was like, who is this? And she's like, well, that's Alaric of the Visigoths who sacked Rome in 410 AD. And I was just like, who is this person? I must know everything about him. And then I just became obsessed with Alaric of the Visigoths and he has several other quotable things that he said.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  I feel like there is an episode in our back catalog called Stuff Alaric Said that I worked on with my, my amazing co-host, Jennifer Williamson.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  Williamson?

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Yes. I believe her name is Jennifer R.R. Williamson. Um, I think it's Dutch. Um, she has no relation to this person's speaking.

• 16:05Speaker 03

  No, none, none at all. Um, yeah, so I just, I just became completely obsessed with Alaric of the Visigoths and decided I needed to know all about him and at some point wrote our first podcast episode, which was, which was called Stuff Alaric Said. Um, not the first.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  I don't believe you wrote that. I believe my co-host, Jennifer R.R. Williamson, wrote it. She's out ill today. She did want to meet you terribly, but unfortunately she's got the norovirus.

• 16:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah, just, just couldn't work. Just couldn't work.

• 16:35Speaker 03

  You know, she and I have never been seen in the same room together. Is it a coincidence? I don't know.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  So yeah, so that's how it happened. And I was, you know, kind of just became obsessed with the time period and the person. And I think what I really love about the time period is how, how much it was, it must have seemed like an apocalypse to the people living through it, like to the Romans who, you know, their empire was crumbling, but also to the people living outside Rome, like the people who joined Alaric's coalition, because this was a period called the migration era, where there was so much upheaval and different groups moving to different places and coming into conflict with Rome a lot more. Because, and and there's, there have been lots of different reasons given for why the migration era happened. Some people think it was climate change, like the Huns moving down from like the Central

• 17:30Speaker 03

  Asian steppe, like all kinds of different things like that. But just like the, the sort of like apocalyptic dark horizon of this time period seemed like such a great setting for a romance novel to me.

• 17:43Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I, I agree. And as someone who, you know, I, I'm never one to make things political, not ever. I almost never talk about current events.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  I've never heard that before, Liv, ever. Not about you, or me, never.

• 17:56Liv Albert?

  No, no, absolutely not. No. But, but you know, what I would say if I was a person who might get political now and then, I would say that, like, yeah, I mean, this was a time period where this empire that was too big was unnecessarily big, was big just because they'd wanted to conquer everybody. And, and then, like, no empire should be that big. Of course, no empire ever since Rome has been that big or that problematic.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  I think the British Empire would beg to differ, but, you know.

• 18:28Liv Albert?

  That's the joke, Jen.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Sorry, sorry.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Sorry, I missed it.

• 18:35Liv Albert?

  I think the American empire would also beg to differ, but that would also be the joke.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Listen, listen, Canada, we're coming for you.

• 18:42Liv Albert?

  That's exactly right.

• 18:43Speaker 03

  In Greenland.

• 18:44Liv Albert?

  Colonialism is back and still here.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  We need that Greenland for safety.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 18:50Liv Albert?

  Free Palestine.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 19:05Speaker 04

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• 19:47Speaker 04

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• 20:50Speaker 01

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals. No kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  We've talked a little bit about Alaric of Visigoths, who is her main hero. I want to delve into Julia. Julia is the female main character. She is very much a hot mess, which I relate to because, hello, you can hear me right now. Were there any-

• 21:54Liv Albert?

  None of us are hot messes. I don't know what you're talking about.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Can you tell us if there were any historical women who you based Julia on?

• 22:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, so there were three. So one of my characters that I based Julia on was Julia the Elder. She's perhaps the original kind of template for Julia. She is, of course, the daughter of Augustus. She got exiled to Pandeteria for being too slutty.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  My favorite reason to be exiled.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:22Liv Albert?

  Respect.

• 22:24Speaker 03

  Hell, yes.

• 22:25Liv Albert?

  Respect. Get yours, girl.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Kind of my inspir- Get that D.

• 22:30Liv Albert?

  The Roman D.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  I hope it was worth it.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  So that's like my kind of original template for her. The other one is Galaplesidia, who was a princess of Rome during the time of Alaric's sacking.

• 22:46Speaker 03

  Who was in Rome at the time of the penultimate sack of Rome, um, wound up being taken prisoner or just sort of trailing out of Rome with a bunch of other aristocratic, you know, people who had been in there the whole time. So she'd been in the city during the siege. She got, um, mixed up with the Goths, potentially joined them, potentially, you know, was kidnapped by them and married a Tolf, Alex's right-hand man.

• 23:08Liv Albert?

  Ah.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  It wasn't just a marriage. Didn't she have the most impressive dowry ever?

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the dowry that she had, there Edward Gibbon goes into this in detail and I love it. And I want to talk more about, you know, the Gothic culture of jewelry. Because I think that really factors in here. So there, the dowry.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Please tell me about it. As our listeners know, I'm a big fan of the shiny shinies. Like if you could throw some jewelry and like knowledge about it at me, I'm gonna just swoon. Cause I love my jewels.

• 23:38Liv Albert?

  Our girls are mad.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  I am. Thank you, Liv.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  If you, if you recall, we actually did talk about this in the.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  Um, I, excuse me, excuse me. I talked about this with my co-host.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Jennifer R R Williams.

• 23:50Liv Albert?

  That's exactly right.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  I have never talked about this with you.

• 23:53Speaker 03

  Doing that. Okay. Um, so anyway.

• 23:56Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  So then you already.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Jenny autistic. We are definitely two people we're talking about.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  Okay. Um, so anyhow, like the dowry of Gallaplesidia, there was a, let me think about this. There was a giant table that was made of one enormous precious gemstone with 365 legs. Um, and I just, I can't imagine how big this table would have been.

• 24:21Liv Albert?

  Sorry, wait. No, I'm gonna need more information on that.

• 24:23Speaker 03

  I can't, I don't know what the shape of the table was, but imagine carrying that all up and down the Italian peninsula. But anyway, so there was this giant table and it had potentially 365 legs. Just go with it. And it was made out of one entire precious metal, precious stone encrusted with other precious stones and gems and things. Not the only treasure. There were giant plates. The early Christians were super into giant plates, the size of a wagon wheel that would have been a hundred million pounds, like silver and gold.

• 24:53Liv Albert?

  Honestly, the Christians have always been. Fucking weird.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, there was a lot of that. So like the goth, I feel like the goths in particular. There was a tradition where the man gives the woman a dowry, right? And a tholfe was

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, as he should.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  He can take care of me, not the other way around.

• 25:11Liv Albert?

  That is reasonable. That's the literally, if we have to have a dowry, like that's quite literally how it should be.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Cheers, love. Cheers.

• 25:19Speaker 03

  Agreed. It also kind of, it's an indicator that the woman had more power in the relationship than you would originally think. Because she gets all this wealth in it, um, I guess.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Do you think that has any bleed over from the ancient like, uh, Gallic and Cal- Celtic traditions? Where the woman, whoever brought more into the marriage was the sort of elevated partner because they had more wealth?

• 25:41Speaker 03

  Well, I think it's different because in the Celtic tradition, the man and the woman did both bring a dowry. And whoever, it was kind of, you know, I don't think it always had to be like a competition. But of course, in the cattle raid of Cooley between Maeve and Aleal, as everybody knows, it did become one. Um, so that I, that's basically the dowry of Galaplexia was legendary in its time. It wound up being left in a, in a palace somewhere in Spain and then divided up by various, um, Gothic rulers who came in after. The Franks got their hands on it. Some other people, maybe the Vandals, I don't know. And people were talking about things from this, uh, dowry up until the seven hundreds A.D. I believe, or something like that. Yeah.

• 26:21Liv Albert?

  Wow.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Famous, famous in its time.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Happened?

• 26:24Speaker 03

  What, when would?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  When would this dowry have happened?

• 26:26Speaker 03

  Well, the dowry was, um, a mo- like it was a collection of basically, uh, booty. That Alaric would have collected while sacking Greece and Rome.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  Okay, so Galaplexia's dowry was legendary. It happened, it was probably given from a tholfe to Galaplexia. He was a, you know, princess, daughter of Rome, um, some

• 26:47Liv Albert?

  One of the inspirations for Julia.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Exactly. Sometime in the four hundreds A.D. And it was still being, it was still being talking, it was still being talked about. In the seven hundreds A.D. That's a long, that's like, you know, what, three hundred years in between they were still talking about? How epic this dowry was.

• 27:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and dividing it up between themselves. So there was still a lot by the seven hundreds A.D.

• 27:09Liv Albert?

  And so who was the, the third woman?

• 27:12Speaker 03

  Oh, this is one of my favorites. Right, so the third woman is Anoria, who is the daughter of Galla Placidia. And what I love about Anoria is that she was going to have an arranged marriage to, I don't know, some asshole that she didn't like. And she did not want to marry that guy. And so, what she did, I adore this so much, was she-

• 27:30Speaker 02

  It's the best story, and like, it's one of my favorite stories in all of ancient history.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  Okay, let me tell it. Okay, so-

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Okay, Jenny Williamson on my podcast, demanding things.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  So, she dashed off a letter to Attila the Hun, saying, "Come and get me." Um, and she basically proposed to him. So Attila the Hun had been sacking, I don't know where he was, he wasn't in Rome yet, I think he was sacking around Greece or whatever, somewhere in Eastern Europe, I'm not sure. I did a whole episode on this when I, where I knew what he was doing, but I don't know. Um, so, so she dashed off this message, and Attila the Hun immediately used this as a pretext to invade Rome, because he was supposed to be engaged to Anoria, which meant that he now was owed half the Roman Empire as, um, some kind of a dowry or inheritance or something like that. So, um, so she was Galla Placidia's daughter.

• 28:21Speaker 03

  And it's really interesting, because Galla Placidia, I mean, you can argue about whether Atalph and Galla Placidia was a love match, um, it's presented that way in a lot of the sources. And I kind of went with that initially when I was doing the research on this, because I really love the idea that maybe everything didn't suck for all women all the time.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  I support that, because usually it did.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  So I was just like, oh my god, maybe she and Atalph loved each other, maybe it was just this beautiful love match. Um, but then Atalph got assassinated like, two years after they met. And she went back to Rome, and she married this guy named Costantius who she hated. And she, that's who she had Anoria with, so she was the daughter of Galla Placidia and Costantius. But then Anoria also wanted to marry someone she didn't hate. And Galla Placidia was like, "Absolutely not, I'm gonna force you to marry this guy." So- I kind of really love it that Anoria was like, well, my mom got to have a hot affair with like a Goth. Maybe I can have a hot affair with a Goth and it wouldn't be that weird to call a Hun a Goth. Cause the ancient Romans used that word to, you know, kind of describe everybody who they would have categorized as a barbarian at different times.

• 29:27Liv Albert?

  Was I gonna say, okay, I was gonna say, was that like kind of a, almost a barbarian style term where it just sort of means people who aren't Roman?

• 29:33Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And also the word Scythian, like they would have called the Huns, the Huns were basically Scythian, you know, horse warriors.

• 29:40Liv Albert?

  Well, I mean, and then their defense, they were coming from the other side of the Scythians.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  They're absolutely different people than who the Goths were. Um, but the way that the Romans referred to, to these different peoples, they would have called them that, those things interchangeably. So I'm not saying Anoria was thinking of this as like, oh, this is a Goth and that is a Goth, but theoretically some of the Romans were. Um, but anyway, so she's like, in my head, Anoria was this, this kind of this rebel, you know? And there's this one period in her life where, and this is a precursor to when she sends a message to Attila the Hun to ask him to come and get her, but that really explains a lot to me. And so when she was like 15 or 16, she had sex with like her chamberlain or something and got pregnant with him.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  And got severely punished for it by her parents, sending her off to, there's actually conflicting information about where they sent her to. Like it could have been a nunnery, but in the version I like, it's to Constantinople, the Eastern Roman Empire, which at that time was a lot more Christian.

• 30:40Liv Albert?

  Which is Istanbul is Constantinople. That's not true.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  She would have been in Constantinople and at that time it was a much more Christian and sort of repressive and very pious court. Where she would have been made to get in line, right? Like pray a lot and live this very restricted life. And in that time period, there was this time when Attila the Hun was bearing down on Constantinople and he was gonna sack the city. And, um, the walls had been destroyed by an earthquake and all the people, like the Huns were like two weeks away. They were not very far away and they go very fast on their horses, right? So like this is an emergency. The whole, the whole city.

• 31:19Liv Albert?

  Sorry, I just thought you said that. They go very fast on their horses.

• 31:22Speaker 03

  Very fast on their horses. This is one of the things that made the Huns so terrifying is how fast they go. Um, so, right on their horses.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's how, how fast they were able to actually mount a siege and arrive at your city.

• 31:35Speaker 03

  They weren't technically that good at sieges, but these people didn't know this. So they, um, so they were all like, the whole city had to rally to rebuild these walls before the Huns got there and burned everything. It killed everybody and sacked the city. It's an emergency and everybody had to like come together. And I just imagine Anoria in this time period, looking at these walls going up and everybody else around her is praying for the walls to rise. And she's praying for Attila to hurry because she wants this world burnt down. So I just, that's, that's what like, that's what I imagine about her. And I think I, I wrote an intro to that episode about that. I mean, I didn't write it. I just am aware that it was written. Um.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, Jennifer Arby.

• 32:18Liv Albert?

  Jennifer Arby.

• 32:19Speaker 03

  I'm just preempting, preempting that. So, um, yeah, so that, that is kind of my sort of little fan fiction about Anoria. Um, is that she just, she just felt extremely constrained by the world around her and what they wanted to force her into, including her own mom who got to have her hot affair with a, with a quote unquote barbarian. So why can't she have one? So she's like, all right, well, I'm gonna, you know, message Attila and see if he is down to clown.

• 32:46Liv Albert?

  Message Attila, DTF.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  DTF.

• 32:49Liv Albert?

  Attila, down to clown. Down to clown, wow.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  She basically like texted him. She's like, you up?

• 32:59Speaker 03

  He's always up.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  So we've talked about some of the real historical figures, um, who inspired you, uh, Ms. Williamson. Can you talk about the tropes readers can expect in any of my dreams? I know that previously on our book club, I can't talk about, um, Liv, I can't talk about what you've had on your podcast. We've had a lot of things like grumpy and sunshine, enemies to lovers.

• 33:22Liv Albert?

  I mean, I love tropes. I was already ready before you talked about them.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  What can we expect here?

• 33:26Speaker 03

  I actually want to ask you guys that too, because. I know what the tropes are, but I also, as readers yourselves, what tropes interest you in this book?

• 33:35Liv Albert?

  I mean, I know, so I think of them in a, in a lot of ways of you and I sharing tropes because I wrote my novel. I called it just like a trope-y Cupid and Psyche, when I first started writing it. So to me, I was just like, how many fun romance novel tropes can I jam into this novel in a, in a way? And so I was kind of noticing yours as we went, also because you read my book around the same time as I was reading yours, which is fun.

• 34:01Liv Albert?

  Yeah. So I mean, I love, like, I'll go so deep into the tropes, but I, I mean, I'll take, I'll take all of them. But the enemies to lovers was, it was pretty great. The grumpy sunshine, I think also implies, except she's not really sunshine. But kind of they're both, both grumpy and both sunshine, maybe? In different ways? Yeah. They have their moments of each for both.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  You definitely have some of my favorite tropes, which are forced proximity, enemies to lovers.

• 34:27Liv Albert?

  Share in that tent, that horse.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  My co-host Jennifer R R Williams Soon, who's a very horsey girl, really.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Um, she's a big fan of like Just One Horse, and I think you do that quite well here. You've got quite a bit of horse representation.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  Thank you. I'm glad you noticed.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  This isn't a romance trope, but it's one of my favorite tropes you find in fantasy, which is found family, where you find yourself amongst others. And you have a chosen family. I really love how you've done that amongst your characters. You've got the hero and heroine, but you also have your heroine who, for reasons, decides what she's going to do is, I don't want to say seduce his friends, but definitely like encourage his friends to be her friends to aggravate the hero. Like you have a lot of aggravation.

• 35:18Liv Albert?

  Oh, that's done very well. Yeah, I will say that I.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Talking about it with someone, but not you.

• 35:25Speaker 03

  Couldn't have been me.

• 35:26Liv Albert?

  Oh, no, never her. But I mean, and, and I will say, like, and again, this is not a question, this is just me hyping it up. But I, and also mostly I'll, I'll admit, this is me hyping it up from the position of, I don't think I could write like this.

• 35:41Liv Albert?

  But I do think your side characters, your sort of just peripheral, every character who isn't, you know, Julie and Alaric, like I think. I think you did them incredibly well in a way that I, yeah, I really enjoyed. And I think that, you know, that's really important, but it also can be rare in works. And so like the twins are the ones I'm thinking of most. Like I think you really, you did great work on, on like, yeah, the side characters.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  The twins, the twins, for those of you who don't know are in, um, Enemy of My Dreams. Alaric has kind of this, um, adoptive children. He is like a, like a lone wolf and he's got these two cubs. They are named Horsa and Hengist. And while he is not blood related to them, he sort of raises them from about three until 15 in this book.

• 36:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  And it's a really great dynamic that you have. Um, the lone wolf and cub, you don't get to see a lot. And so it was really great seeing it reflected here in this romance.

• 36:40Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 36:41Liv Albert?

  Also, men who, men who have those types of relationships, I think, I mean, I say this a lot that I really prefer fictional men. I am a straight woman who unfortunately just doesn't like real ones all that much. Um, and, and yeah, so.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  I can understand that.

• 36:58Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, I just, you know, they have, they've never impressed me, but fictional, fictional are great. And I think though, that having that kind of relationship, like I think, I think with Alaric, you really, you handled him well in that like he is like big and gruff and scary and hot, but also, you know, in all those good ways. He's like a very endearing, very warm character. And I think that's hard to do sometimes to kind of juggle those.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that for me, like, you have to, I mean, there has to be something about masculinity that you love if you're gonna write a hetero romance. Like, there has to be.

• 37:36Liv Albert?

  Yeah, and it's usually not realistic because realistic masculinity is toxic.

• 37:40Speaker 03

  Do I want to date a real, an actual human man? Or do I want to date a fictional man written by a woman? Question mark.

• 37:49Liv Albert?

  That's what I want.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Win.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  But like, I feel like, you know, Alaric to me is a version of something I kind of think of as like sort of, you know, old oak tree masculinity where it's like.

• 38:01Liv Albert?

  Old oak tree.

• 38:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've never heard that term before, but I really love it. You should coin it.

• 38:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I'm doing it now. Like, I kind of see it as like an old, like, you know, grain of wood. Like, it's deep and strong and kind of gnarly and scarred and you can build furniture out of it. And it's stoic, but and it's not an asshole. Tall, strong and silent type, you know?

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Okay, so your book is called Enemy of My Dreams and

• 38:30Liv Albert?

  Which is one of the greatest titles ever in existence and I

• 38:33Speaker 03

  I'm so glad you like it.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:35Speaker 03

  Did I, did I tell you the story of how it came about?

• 38:38Speaker 02

  No, please tell us.

• 38:39Liv Albert?

  Tell it again, because now we're on microphone.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and our listeners don't know it.

• 38:43Liv Albert?

  And again, I've never met you before, so let's keep that moving.

• 38:47Speaker 03

  Right, so I've never met you before, so you've never heard this story. So, um, it took me, I know I've said this many times on mic before, it took me roughly eight years to write this book.

• 38:57Liv Albert?

  But again, not on the podcast.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  I've never been on a podcast. I'm just on various mics.

• 39:04Liv Albert?

  We're keeping it going. We're an hour and a half in, Jenny. You can't pretend.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  Just for my hairbrush that I was pretending was a microphone. Um, yeah.

• 39:11Liv Albert?

  That's exactly right.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  So I have, uh, it took me like eight years to write this book. Like, it took me a very, very long time. And the entire time I did not know the title, didn't know what the title was, no idea. People would occasionally ask what the title was and I would have a little bit of an anxiety attack because I was like, I don't know. Um, and so finally I was like, right, I have to actually have a title at some point. And so, uh, a friend of mine, Erin in New York, she was like, let's do this and we will figure out the title to your book. And I'm like, I don't know, Erin, it's been eight years. I don't know if I'll ever think of a title to this book. And she's like, let's just figure it out. So we went to drag brunch in my neighborhood.

• 39:51Liv Albert?

  As one always should.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  I mean, there is so much creativity and their authenticity and just so much to be learned from going to Drag Brunch.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  I encourage you all to do it.

• 40:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, the Drag Brunch was just a font of creativity and really inspiring and Erin and I had a really good time and thought of this title and it was awesome.

• 40:12Liv Albert?

  It's, it's just, like, I, I think I love it most because my love of romance novels comes from the tropes and the predictability, but like in a way that's not predictable, you know, like, I think a lot of people complain about romance novels for those same reasons. They're like, oh, it's, you know, the, the tropes are so, you know, you see them coming or whatever, but it's like, yes, and that is the joy of it. Like, I love reading a romance novel where I know that I'm gonna have this whole wild ride, which with tropes that I find, you know, and like enjoyable, and also there's gonna be a happy ending. And I think that that's, that's the joy of reading romance novels, particularly when

• 40:57Liv Albert?

  the world is on fire is like, I would like to know that there's just gonna be nice things and, and if they're slightly predictable, I'm so down.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so too. Like, I think that, um, you know, I, I, when I wrote my book, I wasn't thinking about what tropes I was using. I just kind of wrote it and then figured it out backwards.

• 41:14Liv Albert?

  Well, you wrote it as somebody who, and again, I've never met you before, but I know somehow just through, through knowledge about you as an author that like you grew up reading bodice ripperies and, and those very specific types of romance novels. And so I think that comes from naturally.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna say, this, this title to me evokes a lot of those like, early nineties, eighties, like ashes in the wind and like really bodice ripper-y historical fiction. And I, I love that because I don't think we're seeing that as much in romance anymore. Like, I.

• 41:51Liv Albert?

  Agree.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  I love it in historical. I mean, I love reading a good historical novel I can fall into. And this really evoked that for me and was that for me with. Out those really problematic um aspects. I did enjoy that there was consent here and that it It is very sexy consent and I think you did that really well and you also handled one of my least favorite tropes, which is like a jealous older woman uh of a younger heroine. I think you really turned that on its head.

• 42:30Liv Albert?

  Remember it so well now.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  You had two female characters who were vying for the male's lead and one was slightly older and one was our heroine or hot mess Julia and you actually did a really good job of turning this trope of like female jealousy over one male um on its head and I just have to commend you for that.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. Um yeah, I think that um I'm gonna ta- I'm gonna tackle those two things separately because they're two different things. Um I think that one of the things that I really wanted to do in this book was have a book where it kind of did feel like the sort of, you know, vast sweeping historical romances that I read when I was a kid. Which I'm sure a lot of romance fans that I that are listening right now maybe got their start on, you know, like there are a lot of those from like the nineties or the eighties. They're very bodice rippery. Um there's a lot of dubious consent in those and non-consent in those and for me, I was just like, you know, I want to write a book that's like that.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  That feels like that, but where the sex is all consensual and like I wanted it to be like that without losing the combativeness, you know? Like

• 43:37Speaker 02

  And this muddiness, the spice of it, you know, I feel like that's one of those things that

• 43:42Speaker 03

  Like it's not a kind or gentler romance, you know, like there's still that like, there's still that combativeness, but everything is consensual and like I wanted to keep that excitement, you know, of of that, like.

• 43:54Liv Albert?

  Jenny, now, okay, this is something I would have said to you when I first started reading your book and it's just brought it back to me now, hearing you talk about it this way because you know, as somebody who also has been working on writing smut, admittedly.

• 44:10Liv Albert?

  Um, but who didn't come to it from that or like older bodice ripper-y time? Can, do you remember how I phrased it when I told you how I described your smut? Because I think it was like.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  I don't remember.

• 44:25Liv Albert?

  It was like elevated smut or something like that where I just think your prose is so

• 44:31Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 44:32Liv Albert?

  lovely that you write like classy smut in a way where I was like, I'm not.

• 44:37Speaker 03

  Um.

• 44:38Liv Albert?

  And I don't know, this isn't really a question, but I just generally like, I'm jealous of your prose. I think is, is part of it. So now I'm just fawning over you.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  It feels great. Keep doing it.

• 44:49Liv Albert?

  Oh, good. Great. It would make me so uncomfortable, which is why I, so.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 44:53Liv Albert?

  I'm glad to hear your neurotypicalness, um, really helps you in that situation.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  You know?

• 45:00Liv Albert?

  Uh, you did great, honestly.

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• 46:05Speaker 02

  So let's talk about enemies to lovers, which I've heard is your favorite trope. I mean, I just read it in your bio on your website. So can you talk a little bit about the enemies to lovers trope? And why it's such an enduring trope?

• 46:20Speaker 03

  Um, well, I really love it because I really love that conflict. You know, like, it really feels, when you have a good enemies to lovers situation going, like, the passion is there from the beginning. And it's just like, you can turn it as an author from angry passion to a sexy passion. And there's very little daylight between the two.

• 46:41Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  So I feel like it already rocket fuels your relationship if they hate each other on sight. You know what I mean? But in a sexy way.

• 46:49Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah. I feel like all my favorite books, like romance books, start that way. And I think it's, you know, there's a lot to debate between what is like, what is enemies to lovers versus like rivals or whatever, all those different things.

• 47:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:04Liv Albert?

  Thing, yours is legit. It's legit enemies, political, cultural, like.

• 47:09Speaker 03

  Exactly. And that's like the more, it's like, kind of like a rubber band, you know? Like, the further apart you put them at the beginning, the more they snap into each other. Like.

• 47:18Liv Albert?

  God, you're good at phrases like that. What a great metaphor.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  What a spicy metaphor, right?

• 47:25Speaker 03

  Super spicy, because really what I want to do is watch them collide into each other, like two freight trains exploding. Like, this is.

• 47:33Liv Albert?

  They didn't have freight trains. I think maybe like a couple of carriages.

• 47:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, something that explodes. I don't know. Pick your, pick your image. Pick your flammable image. This is in your imagination. You're not actually harming any, any wildlife or people or anything.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:49Liv Albert?

  This is fictional.

• 47:50Speaker 03

  So, yeah.

• 47:50Liv Albert?

  That's the fun of fiction.

• 47:51Speaker 03

  Exactly. So it's, it's about that explosive, that explosive moment when they collide, shall we say? And the more, the more you pull them back.

• 48:01Liv Albert?

  I wonder what's that like?

• 48:01Speaker 03

  Right. I mean, the more you pull them back in the beginning, the more they snap into each other and explode. That's, that's what I love about enemies to lovers.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Um, so Liv, on our book club, we've talked, on the Fangirl Book Club, we've talked a lot about what is more difficult to write, either a sex scene or a fight scene. So, um.

• 48:20Liv Albert?

  Oh, God.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Exactly. So Jenny, we wanted to know what you find more difficult to write, a sex scene or a fight scene?

• 48:28Speaker 03

  All right, I have real thoughts on this.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  I know you do.

• 48:30Liv Albert?

  I know.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  I know, I also know my co-host does.

• 48:33Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:34Liv Albert?

  Right. What a coincidence.

• 48:36Speaker 03

  Coincidence, we have, they might be similar thoughts, but I don't know, I've never met her.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:40Liv Albert?

  Not similar people, though, that's totally different.

• 48:42Speaker 03

  Been in the same room together. Not a coincidence. So, right, so sex scenes and fight scenes. So I really feel like a sex scene is the canary in the coal mine of your romance novel. Like, if I am writing the rest of the romance novel and I get to the sex scene and I'm having trouble writing it, it means that I haven't set my scaffolding right and I have to go back and fix it.

• 49:02Liv Albert?

  Wow, that's such a smart way of phrasing it. I'm really jealous of your brain.

• 49:06Speaker 03

  Thanks. Um, but it's also like, you know, it that.

• 49:10Liv Albert?

  So.

• 49:12Speaker 03

  I'll.

• 49:12Liv Albert?

  I'm just saying to keep going, I'm so jealous of that. I'd be like, oh, but, but, but, but, but, sorry, go ahead.

• 49:18Speaker 03

  But I love sex scenes in that way because I feel like I can really tell if I'm doing it right. If I can hit the sex scene and it just flows right out of me, you know?

• 49:25Liv Albert?

  Oh, I love that for you. Flows right out of me.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  But I feel like if anything, if anything is gonna flow right out of me, it's gonna be the sex scene. Cause like, I love writing sex scenes. Like, it is my favorite thing in the world. I love it so much.

• 49:38Liv Albert?

  If this was video, I'd be pulling at my collar, which I am, but you can't tell.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  If you could see me, I would be very red and also sex scenes are.

• 49:46Liv Albert?

  Well, we're just all blushing.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  Sex scenes are difficult for me from my, like, very Catholic upbringing where I'm like, how red do I turn while writing it? The redder, the better.

• 49:55Liv Albert?

  Catholics love to fuck.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Oh, they absolutely love to fuck. They just like.

• 49:59Speaker 03

  If you're not deeply embarrassing yourself.

• 50:02Liv Albert?

  Fucking as a sin.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Exactly. We, we must atone for it. We must go to confession and tell a priest who's supposed to be celibate all the naughty, dirty things we did, which is also hot.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Well, that's its own fetish, Jen.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  I'm aware.

• 50:18Speaker 03

  So anyway, okay, I'm talking about me.

• 50:20Liv Albert?

  Yo, excuse me, excuse me, we're talking about you.

• 50:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're talking about me, it's all about me.

• 50:24Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Sorry, author, we didn't mean to derail you. It's not about the J-Bus of his all, that's all I'm gonna say.

• 50:31Speaker 03

  Okay, so.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  We broke live.

• 50:36Speaker 03

  We've all, we're all broken on this podcast. Um, anyway, I was gonna talk about fight scenes now.

• 50:42Liv Albert?

  Please.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  Versus sex scenes.

• 50:44Liv Albert?

  Which is harder.

• 50:45Speaker 03

  Okay, so sex scenes are really fun. Sex scenes are

• 50:50Liv Albert?

  Sex or sword.

• 50:51Speaker 03

  Super fun. There should be many sex scenes in all books, but I enjoy sex scenes and I enjoy writing them. And fight scenes, I think they were harder for me to learn how to do, but then I was watching anime, right? And I was watching a kind of, you know, sword swordfighty anime. And I realized that there's

• 51:12Speaker 02

  Castlevania.

• 51:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I realized that there were two types of swordfighty anime. There is the swordfighty anime where they really animate all phases of a fight where you see everything that happens. And then there's the one where it's just they run at each other and then it's like some kind of explosion.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  And then one of them is cut in half and you don't know what happened. And I was just like, you know, I don't think I need to know everything that happens in the fight scene to write the fight scene. I think I can really gloss over it and give it an action sheen. And it really, there's a lot of verisimilitude there. So I, I tried that as a tactic.

• 51:45Liv Albert?

  What a, what a author that you can just throw in verisimilitude as a word that you just said.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  I know.

• 51:52Liv Albert?

  It's almost like you're a published author. I've never heard of one of those.

• 51:56Speaker 03

  It's almost like I'm a professional word monger.

• 51:59Liv Albert?

  Honestly, a word smith even.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  I've described myself as a smut monger and a high end smut monger in the past, and I think I'm gonna go with that.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  A purveyor of high end smut.

• 52:09Liv Albert?

  That's exactly right.

• 52:10Speaker 03

  A purveyor of high end smut, yes. Um, so I think that like, so I tried that and nobody commented on it. So I think that's what I'm gonna be doing until further notice.

• 52:21Liv Albert?

  Honestly, like, oh, but I mean, I feel like, and maybe this is just my writing is that I'm incredibly insecure, which is also true. But fiction, it's weird. I'm like, oh, I can write nonfiction. I can write about the myths in a nonfiction style to the ends of the earth. I'm fucking brilliant as shit, but then fiction?

• 52:39Speaker 02

  You've written two books and a very long introduction to a third. I've written a cookbook and a regular book with my co-host Jennifer R. R. Williams Soon.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  Who is not me, just to be clear.

• 52:52Liv Albert?

  That's exactly right. That's, we've never met you.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  But once you get to fiction, it does feel a little more intimate.

• 52:57Liv Albert?

  It's the fucking worst. I'm like terrible. And then I read Jenny's and I just remember the first, I read the first chapter and then I was like, I don't know that I can keep reading this while I'm still working on my own. Because I was like, your prose is so pretty. You're fucking poet in your goddamn words. I'm so mad about it. And I'm so like, blah, blah, blah. This is what happens. And then, but thankfully, yeah, this is how I describe myself. Yes, we're authors. But I then I, I just got, I got deeper into yours. And I mean, it was, it was great, but it's funny that you say that about the, the fight scenes and I'm, I mean, kind of re, like, I'm just taking it in again now, having heard you describe it that way, because I mean, your fight scenes were great.

• 53:37Liv Albert?

  And it's so hard, it's so hard to write that. And especially because you were dealing with like battles. We're not talking like a one-on-one fight, like a lot of romanticy or fantasy broadly. We're talking like Rome, fall of the Roman Empire battles that you wrote well. And I'm jealous is all that I'm saying.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  And, and you wrote them well from both a historical aspect being like,

• 54:03Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  Okay, this is an occasionally true story. Some things might have been fabricated or moved around, but in general, they were very historically, you know, to the time and sort of the military regime accurate. But also they flowed within the context of a romantic, of a romance or romanticy novel, which is really hard to do. Like I know I couldn't do that personally.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  Think you probably could.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  You don't have to give me praise. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pump myself up in a minute.

• 54:31Speaker 03

  I mean, I just, I just feel like, you know, yeah, you could. You can, I mean, I feel like, you know, the hardcore, um, military history and or, you know, martial arts nerds will probably vociferously disagree with me on this.

• 54:45Liv Albert?

  Well, those would be angry dudes who aren't gonna love the book regardless. So fuck them.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  Not reading this book. To be clear, absolutely. Um, I feel like you can, you can give it that gloss of verisimilitude if you just sort of understand the time period.

• 55:00Liv Albert?

  Throwing in the word again, like a fucking skull.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  I know, like a boss.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  I'm sorry, saying it twice is like way too much verisimilitude. It's just too much. Um, I had a whole point about that and it's about like, I don't know, just making it real. But you don't, you don't have to know every single step of the fight to do that. And sometimes it's better if you don't.

• 55:22Liv Albert?

  No, but that's true. It's so easy to overthink those things, right?

• 55:25Speaker 03

  Right, exactly.

• 55:25Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  And to get lost in the details of sort of a fight sequence or even like a, like a sex scene. Like there's a certain amount of detail we want and there's a certain amount that takes us out of the feels in a sex scene. Or even in a fight scene. And I think you, you thread that needle very well. Um, so I have to commend you, but I have a question.

• 55:47Speaker 03

  Well, I think that there's one more thing I want to say.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Excuse me. Okay, you say it and then I will say what I want to say.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  There's one more thing I want to say about both fight scenes and sex scenes that I think is really important is that both of them are about a relationship. Both the sex scene and the fight scene are about a relationship between two people or however many people are in the scene. Having the sex or the fight, right? So like, it's really about those emotional stakes. And I think that's more important, especially in the fight scene. I think this is less true in the sex scene, but it depending on how you write it, maybe can be true in the sex scene too. It's like less, less important than each and every step being spelled out perfectly is that what is the relationship between these two people? And what are the dynamics and how do they change throughout the scene? And what are the stakes? And stakes are key, are also key.

• 56:31Liv Albert?

  This is, this is where I think that I'm fascinated by your mind. So just to be clear. Cause I'm legitimately as a writer, interested in how you phrased that. Because you said that it was less important for the sex scene about the, the emotional relationships and more important for the fight.

• 56:50Speaker 03

  No, sorry. Like less important in terms of like the emotional relationship is, is it's super important for both. The emotional aspect of it is more important than step by step, exactly what happens.

• 57:03Liv Albert?

  And then both, like, I just love that. That's interesting.

• 57:06Speaker 03

  And it's maybe like, it might be slightly more important, the step by step, exactly what happens part in the sex scene. But I might be overthinking that, you know?

• 57:15Speaker 02

  Okay. So I'm going to ask. I think two more questions and then I, I think I can wrap this up for my side. I don't know about you Liv. I think my first thing is like, and I'm gonna ask all three of us. What is your favorite trope that can be combined with enemies to lovers? Mine is like, two people, one bed. I love it when people are forced to share a bed who don't want to share a bed together, for whatever reasons, and obviously, um, intimacy occurs.

• 57:43Speaker 03

  Okay. Uh, do you want me to go next?

• 57:45Speaker 02

  Go ahead.

• 57:45Speaker 03

  Alright.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Yes, and then Liv.

• 57:47Speaker 03

  So I don't know if this is, um, a favorite trope or just a favorite one that I'm really into in general. I love it in terms of enemies to lovers. I don't know if this is a trope or like a general thing, but like, when people, so didn't know they're dating, and I've talked about this before. Um, I just, I just read, um, I just read a romance called The Last Hour of Gan about a woman who falls in love with an alien lizard man. And it is extremely hot. The idea of two people who don't understand each other and their communication is so bad, even though their sex is extremely hot, that one of them literally thinks they're married and the other one has no fucking clue,

• 58:30Speaker 03

  just delights me on so many levels. Like, it delights me. It delights me because the one who doesn't know is questioning the relationship still, when the other one is like, what are you talking about? We're married. Like, we are solid. And then, and then you just like, as the insecure one, just fall into that certainty, and I find that beautiful.

• 58:50Liv Albert?

  Agree. Wow, yeah, agree. I, I think mine is kind of similar to yours, and I don't know about describing it as like a singular trope. But I love, like, everything you were describing, and I think I, I love sort of the...

• 59:09Liv Albert?

  Um, how to phrase it like the kind of um, like when one person knows things the other one doesn't.

• 59:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:18Liv Albert?

  And then the reader knows all or like has an idea of kind of what's going on and you know that like the one of the characters like thinks they hate this person or whatever, right? And then you know, all of these things that like, oh no, there's like so much going on in the background.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 59:34Liv Albert?

  That I don't know that that's yeah, a poorly described trope, but.

• 59:39Speaker 03

  I completely get it.

• 59:40Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 59:40Speaker 03

  Completely get it.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  I know what you mean. It's it's where one person has sort of this um, extra knowledge about the other one.

• 59:47Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  They might know their secret identity or all the good deeds they do, like donating to like a children's library or a children's hospital. And the other one thinks that they're an asshole or whatever. And so to once they uncover that secret.

• 1:00:01Speaker 03

  That's the Jen who really likes the the sort of, you know, uh, golden retriever-y thing.

• 1:00:07Liv Albert?

  Jenny and I are both like.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  Mine is very different.

• 1:00:11Liv Albert?

  Library like your go to.

• 1:00:13Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:00:14Liv Albert?

  Jenny are like.

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  They're like darker, more fucked up people.

• 1:00:17Speaker 03

  I'm like, I I find out he's even more fucked up and then I'm into it. No, I mean, that's possible.

• 1:00:23Liv Albert?

  Like fucked up and also nothing.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  Your badge and you're here for it. Just don't pull the trigger.

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  No, it's like for me what it is and and it's it's like undisclosed information. But for me, what and Liv, you can tell us which one is closer for you because now I'm curious, but I'm going to tell you mine.

• 1:00:36Liv Albert?

  You've read my novel.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  I think I know the answer. Um, my my prime example of this trope is when it's an enemies to lovers and it's like we we have a beloved, right? A a character, usually it's the woman, but depending on, you know, who it is, it could be anybody really, but let's go with the the heroine um, who's like, oh, I think he really hates me. Like, why is he so, you know, standoffish and and cold and and stoic and whatnot? And it turns out that he's like, he's like holding himself back because he's so obsessed with her. But also he's been doing all these things behind the scenes to protect her and blah, blah, blah. Like, that is what makes me swoon.

• 1:01:15Liv Albert?

  I think that's what we both wrote.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  That is the Mr. Dar- so that is the Mr. Darcy of the like pride and prejudice of like, I can't remember which one it is, hand flex moment where he can't show his.

• 1:01:25Liv Albert?

  That's the, excuse me, that's the 2007 pride and prejudice, the hand flex.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  Pride, Pride and Prejudice, which Liv has just correctly.

• 1:01:33Liv Albert?

  Starring Keira Knightley and what's his name who played Mr. Darcy? You're welcome.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  Yes. So anyway, it is the moment.

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  What's his name who played Mr. Darcy?

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Yes. Hang on. So it's this, it's this moment where he can't show his emotions. So instead of showing it, he like does this sort of like hand clench flex. I love that trope. It's a gorgeous trope.

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  It's completely, it's like this moment of lost control, right?

• 1:01:56Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  Like, that's sexy.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  But also like, he wants to show this emotion, but he can't. So it's like the slightest hint that there's something more going on. If you were paying, just if you're the reader and you were paying the most attention, you could find it, or the viewer in this case. But like, the actual heroine is like, I don't know, he unclenched his fist. What does that mean?

• 1:02:15Speaker 03

  It means he's completely lost himself, but just for a moment. Oh, because she's so incredibly sensual.

• 1:02:24Speaker 03

  That's what it means. Anyway, Liv, which one?

• 1:02:26Liv Albert?

  I don't know. I think we're maybe all fans of romance novels and movies and books. That's fine.

• 1:02:31Speaker 03

  I think so. Yeah.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  All right. So my, my final question for you, Ms. Williamson.

• 1:02:38Liv Albert?

  Not to be confused with R R Williams soon.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  No, we don't want to confuse the two.

• 1:02:43Speaker 03

  I've literally never met you guys before.

• 1:02:44Liv Albert?

  No, I, it's weird we get along so well. I don't quite know what to do with it, but who's to say?

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  So you build these incredible worlds and you do such an amazing job of, you know, sculpting these landscapes and these characters. And writing is a very lonely business. Do you have any beta readers or like friends, maybe someone who hosts a podcast about mythology or co-host of another ancient history podcast, who are there to pump you up and build your community and let you know that you're on the right track?

• 1:03:17Speaker 03

  I mean, yeah, but you have never met those people, either one of you.

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  Fair, fair. I would not know who those perfect people were.

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  People would be nobody that you have met, either one of you.

• 1:03:27Liv Albert?

  It's almost like somebody sounded like they were fishing for like something, but I don't know what that could be because we've never met.

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  I, I can't imagine what you might be asking me.

• 1:03:37Liv Albert?

  We've, none of us have ever met, so.

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  So, once upon a time in, I don't know, eight years ago, me and my co-host were doing this thing called Nano Rymo, which you should not do because they scan all of your stuff when you upload it to AI. Don't do it.

• 1:03:53Liv Albert?

  Do they?

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  Problematic.

• 1:03:56Liv Albert?

  Fuck.

• 1:03:57Speaker 03

  The Nano is now problematic. Yeah. There's something about grooming. It's, I don't know, it's a weird, weird rabbit hole. I don't know anything about it, except that it's fucked up.

• 1:04:06Liv Albert?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:04:07Speaker 03

  We do not, we do not.

• 1:04:09Liv Albert?

  Okay.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Me and my co-host, before we'd even started this podcast, we're trying to write novels.

• 1:04:14Liv Albert?

  I think that here's, I think this is the moment we maybe break down the incredibly realistic wall. You know, I know that we've convinced everyone.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:04:23Liv Albert?

  I know that.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  So, I wanna.

• 1:04:24Liv Albert?

  No one's been, everyone's fooled, but.

• 1:04:26Speaker 03

  We do know each other.

• 1:04:28Liv Albert?

  We do.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  Plot twist, we do know each other. And how I remember this book coming about is about eight years ago during Nano Rymo, um, my dear friend, Jenny Williamson was writing a novel about ancient Rome. And she was in Paris at the time, and I was in London coming over to visit her in Paris. And I was also writing something about ancient Rome. It never got finished. But her novel has gone on to be this incredible, amazing debut. And I just want to talk about how incredible it is that you followed through on this. And it's become this really big thing. Congratulations.

• 1:05:06Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 1:05:06Liv Albert?

  We're really fucking proud of you.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  We are so fucking proud.

• 1:05:10Liv Albert?

  Spoilers, we have known you all this time. Weird, I know. Oh, my God.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have known you.

• 1:05:18Speaker 03

  So, yes, both of you have been very involved in this book.

• 1:05:24Speaker 03

  Jen has been helping me sort of shepherd this book into existence since, I don't know, I conceived of it a million years ago. Um, and Liv.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  It's a beautiful book. I did very little.

• 1:05:34Speaker 03

  Liv came in about halfway through. I remember us being extremely drunk on a, on a patio, on a, not a patio, a balcony in, in Italy, in Rome. And.

• 1:05:43Liv Albert?

  In Greece.

• 1:05:45Speaker 03

  Was it in Greece? It wouldn't have been, it was not Rome, it was in Greece.

• 1:05:48Liv Albert?

  I don't know who you think you. You are, but bringing

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  It would have been Liv's balcony.

• 1:05:53Liv Albert?

  Into this unnecessarily is offensive. No, it was yours, you nerds.

• 1:05:57Speaker 03

  Was it mine?

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  Was it our little one?

• 1:05:59Liv Albert?

  Well, it depends. We're on the big one.

• 1:06:01Speaker 03

  It was yours, you nerd.

• 1:06:03Liv Albert?

  Well, that was, you and me drank a shit ton of rosé and FaceTimed Jen on her way to Athens. And that was from your balcony.

• 1:06:13Speaker 03

  And then Jen showed up and she'd gone shopping or something, or am I conflating two different times? I might be. I'm not sure.

• 1:06:19Liv Albert?

  I heard gun shopping and maybe that's just because

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  I was like, look, y'all, I might be in the South, but I don't buy guns.

• 1:06:26Speaker 03

  I'm gonna leave that there, uncommented on gun shopping.

• 1:06:32Speaker 03

  Jen did say y'all at one point.

• 1:06:34Liv Albert?

  She did. I know. She went full South.

• 1:06:36Speaker 03

  I remember trying to tell Liv about my book and being like, no, I can't tell you about it.

• 1:06:42Liv Albert?

  No, you wouldn't share. I mean, I remember you mentioning the book from day one.

• 1:06:48Speaker 03

  I was very embarrassed about it. And then it turned out that Liv was a huge freak like me. And then I

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  And me.

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  She, you know, was totally into our freakishness as, as we've discovered. And, um, you know, I also shared my book with Liv and I've shared other things with Liv that are embarrassing.

• 1:07:08Liv Albert?

  I mean, that's friendship, but I appreciate you putting it on the podcast.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  That is friendship.

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  That is friendship, yes, indeed. On so many levels now that I'm like, I was thinking of one specific thing, but now I'm like, oh no, it's actually everything.

• 1:07:21Liv Albert?

  Oh God, which one was it?

• 1:07:22Speaker 03

  Liv knows everything. She knows all the things. Um, so yes, and thank you so much, both of you for being in this journey with me because it's been a journey.

• 1:07:33Liv Albert?

  It has been a journey.

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  And it's been a pleasure.

• 1:07:37Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I so remember you, like, I remember the first time we talked, which, again, to the listeners who've been fooled this whole time. You know, but like, we met and I think it had to have been around April. It was early pandemic. So I think it had to be April. So we're nearing our four year anniversary and I mean, I'm sure we've talked about it on an episode before, but like when we all tried, we recorded your Dionysus episode, fine, right? And then I think that that was pre pandemic. That's what it was, is that your Dionysus episode was pre pandemic. And then by the time we talked together again for my Dido episode, it was like April 2020 and we were all losing our minds and we ended up-

• 1:08:20Speaker 02

  And I will say Liv, the, the big caveat here is I was in London, Jenny was in New York-

• 1:08:26Liv Albert?

  Yeah, and I was in-

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  And Liv was-

• 1:08:27Liv Albert?

  West Coast.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  On the west coast of Canada, so the time zones were so extreme.

• 1:08:33Liv Albert?

  Eight hours off from you Jen and Jenny was in the middle. And-

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  And we all decided to start drinking at the same time because we just met each other. We were like, we got on really, really well. I don't want to-

• 1:08:44Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  And we were like, let's have some wine. And I was like, sure, it's whatever hour here in the UK, but I'm now freelance, let's do it. And by the time, how many hours did we spend talking about-

• 1:08:55Liv Albert?

  No, I honestly think we spent like six plu- I feel like by the time, I swear we, so we would have been in Pacific time. And I swear we started at like 3pm and finished at like 11 Pacific, which was then like, that's like 2am you, uh, Eastern and then another, so at 7am. Oh yeah, no Jen, you, I swear you were like, the sun is coming up. I think-

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  I think I was.

• 1:09:21Liv Albert?

  And it was just so, it was so funny. And then we, you know, went off from there, but like, I think that original time we talked, like I remember hearing about this novel and I was like, I would read it. And you were like, Jen is the only one who could read it. It's, you know? And it, it was so-

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  But it's really good. It's better than anything I have read.

• 1:09:41Liv Albert?

  I was so down and I had, I had also been working on a book since 2009. So it was obvious, like I understood.

• 1:09:47Speaker 03

  Like you had your own baby, you know, like I feel like so many of us have that, you know, thing that we've been working on for a million years and it's like, none shall pass. Like I have to be very protective of this.

• 1:09:58Liv Albert?

  And I'm just never, yeah, sorry. I'm so proud of you is what I was going to say, but then I cut you off to say I'm so proud of you.

• 1:10:05Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. I'm so grateful that both of you have been so in it with me. I really treasure that.

• 1:10:12Liv Albert?

  I mean, it's been really fun to be along and to like, yeah, to just watch you get this deal and like, just all of it. It's so nice.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's, it's one of the great joys of my life to see this happen for you. And I'm so incredibly proud of you. And I know that our listeners will also really enjoy this novel and be, be proud of you and happy for you. They've heard about it since our first episode. And I feel like this is a novel that for me, brought me through a really, a lot of really hard times that I haven't like, really talked about on the podcast. But when you were writing this, it was a really dark time in my life. And hearing you be excited about it and sharing these details was incredible. And then through the pandemic, it was such a light. And now

• 1:11:00Speaker 02

  it's here. So I'm so excited for you. And I really hope our listeners enjoy it and see that, you know, sexy darkness, but also the brightness that's there too. Congratulations, Jenny.

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. And I think that like podcast listeners can be included in this circle, you know, because.

• 1:11:18Speaker 02

  Absolutely. They've been hearing about it since almost our first episode. It was like our third episode, maybe?

• 1:11:24Speaker 03

  About our third, I think. Yeah. Or fourth or I'm, I forget. I think it was actually a little bit because we did all this stuff about the siege and, you know, the Praetorian Guard and things. And then we got into the Alaric stuff, like it might've been like our seventh, but it was the first one I wrote.

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's, it's just incredible. And we're so happy for you. And I don't know when this exactly this is going to drop in our book club, but Enemy of My Dreams will be out in hardback ebook. And it's an audio. If like me, you really enjoy hearing the world brought to life. It's got an incredible narrator. Liv, did she send you the?

• 1:12:04Liv Albert?

  Yes, I forgot about that until this moment. I, yes, yes. I remember picking them out, helping.

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  Pick out an audio narrator. So that will be. Coming, I think it's dropping at the same time. I'm not a hundred percent sure on that, but I think.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  It will be. It's the same time. You don't have to worry. It's the same time. Yeah.

• 1:12:21Liv Albert?

  No, I, I just, yeah, I mean, I feel the same as Jen and just to keep it, um, light and silly because I don't know how to be quite serious entirely. I just have to say that while Jen was saying all those beautiful, lovely things to her, one of her oldest friends, her dog did come up and show us his butthole, just directly on the screen.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  Oh, it wasn't his dick? That's good.

• 1:12:43Liv Albert?

  Yeah, you know, he likes to mix it up. But, you know, he got, he got comfy after, but he made it quite clear.

• 1:12:50Speaker 03

  I didn't see that because my face is in my recording.

• 1:12:52Liv Albert?

  Yeah, you know, I just, yeah, I have a privilege of that. He just, you know, he came up on the couch and he just showed it off. That's all.

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Look, he had to. He's behaved very well.

• 1:13:05Liv Albert?

  What can you do?

• 1:13:07Speaker 03

  You can do nothing but appreciate the show.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  So I do want to say a couple of things as we close out. Um, Jenny, your author photo was taken by Liv in the ruins of Rome.

• 1:13:19Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  Um, you two had a beautiful trip. The, uh, I think it was last year to Rome.

• 1:13:25Speaker 03

  Right, like right now, last year. I was in Rome. I was figuring out what I was doing, outlining the second book in the Enemy of My Dreams duology. And Liv was really instrumental in that. And there was a point where we.

• 1:13:38Liv Albert?

  I was grieving my entire life. I'm glad I was helpful for you.

• 1:13:42Speaker 03

  We both were in a certain point.

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  It's okay. I was having a full on.

• 1:13:46Liv Albert?

  Oh, I know. I've never cried more in front of another human. We were doing awesome.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  It was a great, the beginning of 2024 was rough. The end was also rough.

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  We were doing awesome and I was frolicking amidst the ruins and Liv was taking my picture.

• 1:14:03Speaker 03

  In the midst of that.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  One of us was doing the best of all three of us.

• 1:14:08Liv Albert?

  But she was along for the ride.

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  So, yeah, so, um, yeah, Liv took your author photo. Um, I think a friend of yours helped with your website.

• 1:14:19Liv Albert?

  I don't know. She's kind of lame.

• 1:14:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  She's super lame. I don't like her. She's very self-aggrandizing.

• 1:14:24Liv Albert?

  It's Jen. She's incredible and wonderfully talented.

• 1:14:27Speaker 03

  You did a super good job on my website. I could not have done that website, but.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  I try to help, but anyway, and it lives pictures did make it easier. But what I wanted to close out with is saying that your book will be out on February 4th in hardback, ebook and audio. It's coming out from Canary Street Press. Where can people find you on social media?

• 1:14:52Speaker 03

  Okay, so my website?

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  At the moment.

• 1:14:54Speaker 03

  So my website is jennywilliamsonauthor.com.

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  I am on Instagram for the moment at jenni freaking Williamson. I have a Blue Sky account. It's Jenny Williamson. I have not posted anything on it as of right now.

• 1:15:12Liv Albert?

  I'm also trying to get back on there. Let's go because the rest of social media is falling apart at the seams.

• 1:15:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:15:23Speaker 03

  So anyway, yeah, like I said, Twitter, not usable, Facebook and Instagram and Threads turns out are no longer fact checking and are now assholes with who permit hate speech. So I don't know. So I am on Instagram still at Jenny freaking Williamson. I would say that is where I'm most active. I don't know that that will always be where I'm most active. I have a Blue Sky account, which I hope to post more on. That will be Jenny Williamson. Oh yeah, I have a newsletter. If you go to my website, jennywilliamsonauthor.com, that is on there. And I happen to have a podcast and the podcast is Ancient History Fangirl.

• 1:16:04Liv Albert?

  Whoa, reveal.

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  Not the one, not one of the ones you might be listening to right now.

• 1:16:10Speaker 03

  Potentially we're on this and also on Liv's podcast and.

• 1:16:14Liv Albert?

  And if you've never heard Jenny on my podcast, what the fuck are you doing?

• 1:16:17Speaker 03

  Right, you know, so it will come to, it will come as a surprise to nobody that I also have a podcast with Jen called Ancient History Fangirl that Liv has been on a bunch. And you know.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  And will be on a bunch in the future.

• 1:16:31Speaker 03

  Right, and you can find me there.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Jenny Williamson and Liv for being on the podcast. As always, you can find Ancient History Fangirl on Instagram at Ancient History Fangirl. We're also on Facebook, it's mainly updates, and we are on, I don't know, TikTok if it exists.

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  We're in flux like everybody else.

• 1:16:51Speaker 02

  We're also, we're on Threads and Blue Sky as Ancient History Fangirl. Liv, what about your incredible podcast? Where can people find you?

• 1:16:59Liv Albert?

  Well, I also have a podcast. It's mostly called Let's Talk About Myths, Baby. And I'm also on all of those places. Again, the only one I'm really active on is Instagram, but then Piece of Shit Zuckerberg did piece of shit stuff. So now I'm sort of in

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:17:17Liv Albert?

  in the air. It's just almost like we should eat all the billionaires, you know?

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. We will be back at some point in time, either weekly or bi-weekly. And we appreciate you listening. And Jenny's book is out now or will be out very shortly. If it's not out yet, please preorder. And if it is out, go into your local bookstore or library or wherever you get your books and pick up a copy. It is so spicy. I mean, if you're listening to the audio, put those headphones in. You don't want to be caught when, you know, that scene happens.

• 1:17:49Speaker 03

  Or maybe you do, and that's your thing, and I'm not judging. Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you whenever we see you next.

• 1:17:56Liv Albert?

  Thank you.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

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• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  Enemy of My Dreams by Jenny Williamson is a historical romance novel set in the time of the late Roman Empire, where Alaric, a brutal Gothic warlord, and Julia, a Roman princess, with a love of good wine, team up to take down Rome.

• 1:20:07Speaker 03

  The much awaited sequel, Game of Thieves, comes out December 8. In this sequel, Julia and Alaric must overcome centuries of conflict to work together or the turbulent riptides of rebellion and the demons of their past will tear them apart.

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  And now, for a limited time, when you preorder Game of Thieves through Burning Pages Bookstore, you'll get a signed book plate and a free art print of one of Jenny's favorite spicy scenes from across the series.

• 1:20:34Speaker 03

  Get this amazing artwork only from Burning Pages at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves. Don't wait. Order your copy from Burning Pages today at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves.