Laurie Metcalf

Somewhere along the way in her decades of work on stage and screen, Laurie Metcalf cemented her status as one of the greats. Maybe it was her iconic portrayal of Jackie on ROSEANNE, or her roles in the TOY STORY and SCREAM franchises, or most likely it's her many thrilling performances on the stage, all the way back to Steppenwolf to her latest in the Tony nominated DEATH OF A SALESMAN. She joins Josh to talk about it all! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! UPCOMING EVENTS! 6/16 -- Matt Smith in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Josh Horowitz?

  For like, a whole generation, like 90s kids, Toy Story, Andy's mom, Scream 2, Nancy Loomis. I mean, these are kind of generational, important roles for a generation.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  I know, I know. There's no plan to it, but I'm telling you, I got, I got everything right at its peak.

• 0:50Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 0:57Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Today on the show, a star of stage, screen, film, she's amazing. She's the one and only Lori Metcalf. Thanks guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already on YouTube, on Spotify, whatever podcast platform you're using, you know what to do. Before we get to Lori, who is killing it as always on Broadway in Death of a Salesman, want to remind you guys, check out our Patreon, patreon.com/happysadconfused. Early access to all these episodes, discount codes to our live events, autographed merch, all sorts of cool stuff. Supporting us over there, as I always say, does support us over here. Helps us make more stuff. So, patreon.com/happysadconfused.

• 1:42Josh Horowitz?

  We have some cool live events coming up. We announced just the other day, June 16th, me and Matt Smith, the band's getting back together, always a fun time with Matt. We'll talk Doctor Who, we'll talk Star Wars, you know, he's in the next Star Wars movie. And of course, we'll talk House of the Dragon. He is always a blast, live in your city, June 16th. Come on out, get your tickets now. The link is in the show notes. We have at least one more June event that is huge, that is about to be announced. I'll keep you posted on that, on the Patreon and here, I promise. As for today's episode, main event, it's Lori Metcalf, first time guest on the pod. What an honor. I mean, an absolute honor. She is so many things to so many people.

• 2:21Josh Horowitz?

  Maybe you know her and love her from Roseanne. Many people do. 300 plus episodes as Aunt Jackie, an iconic role in an iconic show. Maybe you know her from Toy Story. Maybe you know her from Scream 2, from JFK, who knows? But if you're in New York, if you're in Chicago, if you love theater, you know Laurie Metcalf as one of the all-time greats. She's won two Tonys. She's been nominated for more. She has nominated nominated again this year for her role in Death of a Salesman, opposite Nathan Lane, who is also nominated, opposite Christopher Abbott, who is also nominated. This production is fantastic. I've seen it. Nine Tony nominations in all. Maybe you've seen Death

• 3:03Josh Horowitz?

  of a Salesman before, you haven't seen one like this. Production is very unique and the performances, as you would imagine, are stellar. And Laurie doesn't love doing a lot of this, but she was lovely on this. I was so thrilled she agreed to do the podcast. Great stories. Her background at Steppenwolf, she's one of the founding members of Steppenwolf Theater, which I'm sure you guys know, was kind of one of the iconic theater companies out of Chicago with John Malkovich and Gary Sinise and so many great actors. So yeah, she's the real deal as an actor. She's an actor's actor. No less than Meryl Streep recently called her out as one of the all-time greats for her performance in Death of a Salesman. So, so thrilled to share this with you. Without any further ado, enjoy me and Laurie Metcalf.

• 3:48Josh Horowitz?

  Well, this is a distinct honor. Laurie Metcalf is somehow on my Little Ol' Podcast. Laurie, thank you so much for taking the time today. I appreciate you.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  My pleasure. Thanks.

• 3:57Josh Horowitz?

  So, um, one of the joys of being a New Yorker is I feel like you're always working. You are, you're, you're really like have, I mean, you've, you've always been working, but particularly the last few years, my, my sense is like, whether it's opportunity, restlessness, or whatever, it's like there is always a great Laurie Metcalf performance to be seen on the stage. Give me a sense of where you're, where you're at in terms of opportunity and theater right now.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  This year especially, I had projects that actually even overlapped. So that's a rarity because usually, you know, you tend to go with long periods in between projects where you're like, you know, what's the next job gonna be? I want, I don't want this downtime. I need to be memorizing lines. I just don't know what they are yet. So, but this time, yeah. For a very, a lot of people made it work, work, which was wonderful between agents and producers and Netflix and tons of people. But I was able to go from Big Mistakes by Dan Levy

• 5:03Speaker 02

  to Little Bear Ridge Road on Broadway, straight into Death of a Salesman on Broadway. And now I'm heading back to season two of Big Mistakes, which I can't wait for.

• 5:16Josh Horowitz?

  Congrats, just got the renewal. Yes.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  You know, it's, it's, um, the lucky part of all that is being able to jump around between theater and TV and maybe even film once in a while. So, because I, I do have a worry about getting too burnt out on one or the other, which I don't want to have happen because I like working in all three. Clearly, I prefer theater, but that, that, that can happen. And so I'm trying to keep other things in the mix.

• 5:49Josh Horowitz?

  I would imagine, look, you know, most actors aren't the type to kind of take a step back and kind of reflect on the resume and the awards and all this stuff. Like, that's my job. That's what we do around here. But like, if you'll indulge me, like, you know, take, take a step back for me because like, for someone growing up who didn't come from this background at all, to have the place that you have film and TV and especially theater, it, it is kind of mind blowing, isn't it? I mean, do you, do you take hopefully a moment or two sometimes to kind of realize what you've achieved and where you're at?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Well, when you do put it that way, you're right. I mean, I didn't know, I, I grew up in Southern Illinois and certainly there, there, I didn't even do community theater there. I did a couple of plays in high school. And then I went to college at Illinois State University as a German major with an anthropology minor and weirdly met up with these freaks who wanted to form Steppenwolf Theater, which is in its 50th season now. So I got waylaid big time and now I can't imagine doing anything

• 7:05Speaker 02

  else. But I was always still so practical that I thought, well, I better have a plan B because I'm never going to be able to make a living doing, you know, Right. acting, acting in any medium. So, but I don't know what I thought I was going to do with a theater major either. So I was, I was mistaken in both, in both senses. But yeah, you know, when you put it that way, when I do stand back, I mean, I've had the luck, good fortune, being in the right place at the right time to work on projects in, in, in every area that were at the top of their peak, you know, like Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Roseanne, or like Lady Bird, or like Toy Story series, or like different plays, you know, it's, I, and of, of course, there's never been a plan. There can't be a plan, really, you know. And so it's all, I don't know, it's been a factor of being aware that each opportunity is something that you need to give 110% to. And joining on some projects just because, well, I don't even know how attached I am to this particular script, but

• 8:28Speaker 02

  I want to work with these people. All kinds of different factors play into all different decisions, you know. It's interesting to me also that I spent so many years in TV and it kind of precluded me from doing anything else for a long time. So I, I have no idea what my path would have looked like minus the TV part for all those years, you know, who know, maybe I would have come to New York decades earlier because I didn't really come until I was kind of 60.

• 9:04Josh Horowitz?

  And the irony.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And I've heard you say this, like, the irony is kind of like, even despite like, that Steppenwolf background and all you did, kind of like, by then, you would come, it was like, oh, this TV actor is doing theater, when in fact, of course, you were always that. It's kind of a, it's a, it's a

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:21Josh Horowitz?

  It's an irony to that.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  I, I might have imposed that on myself, you know, I don't think anybody was ever like judging me that way, but certainly, um, audiences, eh, when I got to New York, only, only did know me from TV. And so I think that that's, that's definitely how I, I was viewed. And it took a long time, I think, to, um, join the New York theater community.

• 9:47Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you're, you're embedded now. It's safe to say with a couple Tonys. So, okay, to further embarrass you and hopefully make you blush, you probably heard this. Meryl Streep, no less than Meryl Streep, recently came to see you in Death of a Salesman, and I believe this is an actual quote, I don't know how the fuck she did that, of your performance.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Can you believe that?

• 10:08Josh Horowitz?

  So, I mean, that, it doesn't get any better than that, I would imagine.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  It does not get any better than that. I'm intimidated by people, but she is at the top of the list. Um, because I am, I am in awe of the way she can mix, uh, instinct with, uh, technique. I think those, I think every actor has, some actors have more of one, more of the other. She has a perfect blend. And, uh, that, that to me is one of the things that just make her incredible. And then, of course, the bold choices that she'll go after. And it is a tribute

• 10:51Speaker 02

  to actors who have that facility to switch back and forth, or make those choices, or make that commitment, or just go all in, all in on, on, on a scene or something, that they invariably make it look easy. And it is so not easy. Um, just being on the other side of the lens, or on the other side of, of the. Stage apron and knowing how those how all the decisions that go into a single performance, hours and hours of thought and and and and detail work about, well, if I set

• 11:31Speaker 02

  the glass down on this line, maybe I could get more mileage out it if I do something. It you just break it down and break it down, break. There's no end to it.

• 11:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  So I can so appreciate any actor's work that I look at because I've seen how the, what are they called? The sausages made.

• 11:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  And I know how incredibly time consuming it is. And yet that's it's all in the details.

• 12:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  You know?

• 12:06Josh Horowitz?

  Ten thousand decisions and then hopefully the audience doesn't see any of them and it's just.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 12:11Josh Horowitz?

  Goes right by.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, it looks like, well, how else would she have done it?

• 12:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right. That's the only way possible.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  She just.

• 12:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Granted, she learned the lines. Yeah, that takes some skill, I guess. But how, you know, but then, you know, flip a switch and of course it comes out that way.

• 12:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. So of course she's talking, as I said before, about this great performance in Death of a Salesman. I was privileged enough to see this. This has been honored with nine Tony nominations. It's you, it's Nathan Lane, wonderful Christopher Abbott, reteaming with Joe Mantello directing, who you've worked with many, many times. Look, this is one of those plays. This is one of those plays that we all grew up with. Perhaps we've seen different productions. But actually, I read that you actually kind of had purposely avoided watching productions. Was it in the back of your head that this role might come around? Was that the intent of kind of avoiding productions over the years?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did that also with Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, thinking, well, one day, maybe I'll have the opportunity to play one of these parts. And if I do, it's going to mess me up if I see somebody else do it before me. And I and and and and if I participate as an audience member, I will get.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  I will have a wash of what the show could be or should be, or I will have an impression of it that I'll never be able to shake. And I don't want to have that. I just want to have the words on the script sitting in front of me at a rehearsal table. I'm gonna start from there. So that's why I purposely have never seen it. I think it worked to my benefit, I, I hope. I mean, uh, it helped me certainly, um, certainly come at it, uh, by thinking, well, I've heard this, this, this character described in different ways or with different adjectives,

• 14:06Speaker 02

  and I can, I can, I can throw all tho- those out. And let's see, what would it happen if, you know, what would it, what would it be like if she's an equal partner in the marriage? And what would it be like if she's super opinionated? And what, what would it be like if she had kind of an off sense of humor? I don't know. You can start from anywhere, you know? And, and so I, I was lucky enough not to be able to prejudge anything about the role. And then, the luckiest part, besides working with Joe, which, you know, I'll just, I'll just raise my hand for anything he's got going on down the line, because we, we, we work in a similar way, I guess, and we like to make each other laugh.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  That's kind of what reminds me of the old Steppenwolf days, of just like, "Made you laugh," you know, in the rehearsal room. But anyway, um, no, I got incredibly lucky with the, um, the little micro ensemble within the bigger ensemble of Salesman, which is the Loman family.

• 15:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  And when I was thinking about it, you know, yeah, I've, I've been a wife in real life, I've been a mother in real life.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  But that's, that doesn't clue me in on how to go up there and act like a wife or mother. And then I, it struck me like, I look like a wife and mother to these three other actors because they're treating me that way. They're doing the heavy lifting. I can do my role however I see fit. But all three of those guys are so genuinely free up on stage. They're very affectionate. They're very, um, geez, uh, uh, uh, fu- funny and present.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  And so they're, the, I, when I see what one of them is, you know, as I'm sitting on stage, like going through the attention must be paid scene, and one of them reaches out for me with their hand, you know? And so I take his hand. And, and I, it, it's, they're the ones that are selling it, you know? That we have this intimate relationship. Um, and so I just find that incredibly lucky that, uh, I wound up as, uh, one of the four legs of that Lomond table.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Um, and we all are genuinely offstage as, as close to each other as we seem onstage. And, uh, you know, that's just something that you can't really fake in the, in the rehearsal room or cast on purpose. You know, it's the lightning in the bottle thing. I don't know, it just, it just happened. But I do, I spend 90% of my stage time with the three of them. And I have to give them credit for, for, um, shaping my performance into what it is.

• 17:20Josh Horowitz?

  And I'm, I'm sure they'd say the exact same if I were talking to them about you.

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• 18:50Josh Horowitz?

  It's usually a bad sign, like at a movie press when you're like talking about costumes or set design, but I do want to shout out that like the setting of this, the way that they have chosen to create this environment is really striking and really sets a mood. There's this car that is like a shadow of the future and the past just hanging over this story right from the beginning. I mean, how does that environment inform your take on your character, would you say?

• 19:21Speaker 02

  I only got to experience once, which was a first day of tech, when we came in as a group, all the actors to see the set up on stage. You know, we'd been in a rehearsal room with it marked out in masking tape, so nobody knew. The pillars are marked out in a little, you know, half-square.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  And so we'd stand there, you know, inside the masking tape, not knowing that, "Oh, wait a minute, I have to go down to the basement of the theater and crawl up a ladder and flip a trapdoor with my foot that comes down and so I can stand on it and then wait inside that pillar for my entrance," you know, so all the... Uh, the, the, working on the set was a big learning curve, I must say. But so, but anyway, I, I, I, I'll never get to experience what it's like to, um, walk into that space and see the set and, and think, "Wait, is this Death of a Salesman I'm gonna

• 20:23Speaker 02

  sit down and watch in this cavernous-looking theater?" Um, so that was the big swing that, uh, Joe took was in deciding, "Look, are we gonna go into the Winter Garden or are we gonna postpone this thing some more?"

• 20:47Speaker 02

  You know, uh, because I think everybody would have chosen, honestly, a smaller theater.

• 20:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  But that's what we had.

• 20:56Josh Horowitz?

  1600 seats, this is a big one, yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what we, it's the biggest one I've ever worked in.

• 21:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  And then, um, this, eh, eh, the set for as, um, un, no moving parts really, except the car coming on and off. It does do some cool things, people can, can kinda disappear in and out of the car, disappear coming out of pillars. Um, but, and then the lighting is very theatrical, I know, although I can't experience it from out front. Onstage is blinding, what can I say? And, um, um, so, so, yeah, that was a big swing on that set and, uh, I've heard interesting

• 21:45Speaker 02

  things on, on people's...

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Takes on what it represents. One of them was that, oh, well, clearly, this was the piece of property that the Lowmans had built their house on in the 40s. No, 30s. And that went to ruin, that got razed, and they put a parking garage there. And then that got deserted, and now these are the ghosts that haunt the place.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  I like that interpretation.

• 22:18Josh Horowitz?

  That's a good one. Yeah, I like it. Yeah.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was cool. Um, but, and it is supposed, it can represent, you know, what it's supposed to be inside his mind.

• 22:29Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Um, but, yeah, I'll just never, I'll never get to experience a, a production of Death of a Salesman, full stop. Cause I'm too inside of it now.

• 22:40Josh Horowitz?

  Officially ruined it for yourself. You're the one person.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Officially, I have, and I've ruined, um, Virginia Woolf, too.

• 22:46Josh Horowitz?

  Well, all for the greater good for us. We thank you, Lori, for that.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  I took one for the team, yeah.

• 22:52Josh Horowitz?

  You did. You've taken a few. So have you, have you found that broadly audiences have, have changed in recent years? I mean, are they more or less unruly? Or there's, is there more rustling of candy wrappers and cell phones? Or what's your, what's your sense?

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Not, not my sense. It just depends on the actual audience. I mean, we've even been doing this on Wednesday matinees to a lot of students. We've had like, yeah, it seats 1,500, but we've had like 500 students at a time there. And they're very quiet. They're very respectful. Um, so, no, it's, it's an interesting stage to be on. Like I said, the largest I've ever been on. But it's super wide. And so, um, and shallow. So when I look out, it looks intimate. But because of the lighting also, I can only see a, a few rows back. And then the rest of it looks like a painted backdrop to me of

• 23:51Speaker 02

  little heads, you know, up in the balcony and in the back of the orchestra. But I will say, it, it gets quiet in there. Um, and then it's interesting when there, there are a few laughs in the show. Some, you know? And then they, they don't. The it's the configuration of the stage, I think, of the orchestra, I think. They don't really roll like you'd expect, like with a slightly smaller house. So there's a kind of a wave, but it sort of stops at the apron. I don't know how to describe it. It's very, um, and, and we're doing all of our acting basically downstage center.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Um, around the table and chairs. So I feel close to them, but it, it feels like they're behind a scrim or something. It's, it's, it's different from what I've ever expected or worked with. And I can't really pinpoint why. Maybe it's, maybe it has to do with the lighting, the, the haze, the haziness, you know, um, but.

• 24:57Josh Horowitz?

  It's working for us and Merrill and the Tony nominating committee. So don't, don't get in your head about it.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  I won't overthink it.

• 25:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, don't overthink it. You're doing it right. Um, if you'll indulge me, I mean, you, you mentioned Steppenwolf, which obviously is one of those influential theater groups of ever, full stop. And you were a founding member and, and to look at that group of actors that you came of age with, whether it's Malkovich and Terry Kinney and Jeff Peridge and Alan, Glenn Headley, Sinise, it's, it's a murderer's row. Um,

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:30Josh Horowitz?

  When, when you think back to that young group of wild, young actors, was there a, was there a unifying philosophy you all subscribed to? What, what kept you all together, you think?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  We really did want to, it was a little competitive, I guess I would say. We wanted to show off for each other.

• 25:56Josh Horowitz?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  You know, if I could get a laugh out of one of those guys, or a tear, or a pat on the back after the show, that's kind of what it was about. We were teaching each other. We were teaching ourselves and each other how to act. Nobody wanted to direct. That was the shit job, you know? Nobody wanted to have that. You, that, that just meant, ugh. You had to be at all of the rehearsals, but you couldn't be on stage. Um, and we were in a tiny little eighty-eight seat house, but it was all about, um, and we had tons of energy, you know, we were twenty-three years old. Um, and dating each other, you know, so it was a real Peyton Place about, you know, who's, oh, you know, somebody's not speaking to somebody else, somebody just broke up.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Um.

• 26:44Josh Horowitz?

  Does that, so did that seep into performances? That's an awkward position to be in when you're like hooking up and then breaking up and there's somebody else, I mean, I can't even imagine.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  Um, I don't remember it really affecting that part. Um, but yeah, a lot of jealousies.

• 27:04Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  Um, and, and then, of course, we couldn't find plays that had seven, eight, twenty-three-year-olds in them. So, the hard part was always finding a script. And inevitably, you know, we'd all have, there'd be like two good roles in it for us. And then other people had to play younger, older. But in doing that, you know, you had to think outside the box and you'd be like, okay, well, now I'm the mom in true west, how am I gonna do that, you know? Um, so it makes you, it makes you, um, sort of, uh, go for broke

• 27:48Speaker 02

  in parts that you would never play in a hundred years. You'd never be cast. And thankfully, our audiences way back in the day forgave us for all of that. Because they saw some little sparks in the roles that were right for us at the time.

• 28:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  They, they, they saw that, oh, these people are serious about, you know, um, doing the best theater that they can. And, and they, so the audiences forgave us. Uh, and kept coming back until we could move into the city and branch out a little bit.

• 28:28Josh Horowitz?

  You kind of alluded to this. I mean, it's theater first for you in your career, though. You've had this amazing resume in film and TV. I mean, some, some know this, but some might not, that you've even described it as having literally a camera phobia throughout your career.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:41Josh Horowitz?

  Which is inconceivable to think of somebody that's, you know, did 300 plus episodes of Roseanne and Lady Bird, and the list goes on and on. But, I mean, I'm curious, like, did you have to kind of reconcile or kind of accept at a certain point, like, this is what it is? Like, I'm a theater actor, I can do film and TV, I can handle it, obviously. It's just never gonna be what I love. Like, what's kind of been your journey of kind of accepting what works and doesn't work for you in terms of the different mediums?

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Well, I do realize after all those years of having a camera on tape day, and the fact that I'm, I still have my camera phobia, that clearly I am never getting rid of it at this age. You know, I can, I can accept the fact that I'm always gonna have to deal with it. There are certain projects, though, where, that make it a lot easier. And one is, right now, for me, big mistakes. Because there are, the way that Dan likes to shoot it is, it's a, it's a rapid pace, and so we get to get in there and really rehearse the scenes. People are overlapping each other, which you're, you're not allowed to do a lot in stuff.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  I was, I, I, I, in fact, a lot of, you know, editors hate that. They just want a clean, you know, take of it. But we, we get encouraged to do that. And the cameras, usually there are two, and they're floating around. We don't have marks to hit. We do, and so, um, the TV show for HBO I did that was like that, which was my first experience with this kind of shooting, was Getting On. And, um, it was, sometimes there'd be a camera behind, um, uh...

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Looking through the crack of a door. So I wasn't always aware, so it was kind of a weaning off of my fear of it. And I could feel more like it was sort of, sort of theatrical. Um, because in theater, I don't know why it is, maybe because I, well, no, I do. It's not being recorded. It's just live for the moment. I can do, I feel free. I'll do nude scenes. I could do, I'll, you know, bite the head off a fish, whatever it takes. You know, it doesn't bother me because it's just a bunch of people in a room and there's no

• 31:02Josh Horowitz?

  It's just between all of us, right? This is just for us.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Exactly. But then when I, when I realized that, okay, and then they, they even tell me, okay, well, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna be in like right here and they show me how tight it is. I'm like, ah, I don't want to know. I don't want to know anything about it, please. But with these, with this moving camera stuff, which I think looks cool anyway, when you see it cut together, uh, it's a lot less stressful for me. And, um, and I, I enjoy it a lot more.

• 31:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:42Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, if you'll, um, if you'll indulge me, um, a few roles I have to mention, obviously, um, I mentioned before, 334 episodes, I believe, of playing Aunt Jackie in your career. I mean, that's nearly 40 years of your life, on and off, playing that character. It's kind of insane when I, when I put it that way, I would imagine. Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  You know, I've been doing like a little embroidery project. I think I'm going to make myself a pillow that says 334.

• 32:14Josh Horowitz?

  It's a badge of honor. You should take it.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  I think that's gonna be my, my next project.

• 32:17Josh Horowitz?

  I love it. I love to be some small inspiration there. So talk to me a little bit about, I mean, I would imagine you are received at the coffee shop for different performances, different characters, but I would imagine Aunt Jackie does still come up. What do people, do people say the same things to you they've said for, for decades? I mean, what's, has the meaning of that character changed, do you think, to people or, or what?

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Usually what people say is one of two things. I have an Aunt Jackie in my family or I am Aunt Jackie in my family. It's one or the other. So that is the, that is the seal of approval that this is some sort of universal character. That exists everywhere. And I don't know exactly what characteristics they're talking about when they tell me that. But um, it's in every family. And uh, I, I, I don't know that, you know.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  It, it's, it's such a, like I said, I, I've, I've had all this luck, but to be, to create a character from scratch in a pilot with a super strong ensemble is rare, obviously. And we had writers at the time who were, I didn't know what was going on at the time, but in hindsight, I realized, and all writers do this, they start writing to the strength of the actor. So casting Aunt Jackie as somebody else other than me, you would have had a whole different Aunt Jackie.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  It's just, they started seeing things that, I don't know, I was unconsciously doing. They start writing to that, you know?

• 34:03Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  So um, so who knows what, it's, it's all, it, it's, writing amazes me anyway. I don't know how writers do what they do. But uh, but that, that, that's been incredible.

• 34:18Josh Horowitz?

  Helps to have folks like Norm MacDonald, who I know was someone you, who wrote on the show and you later acted with. I was, we were all such fans of Norm. What a, what a gem. And um, I know he wrote. I was gonna mention, so about ha- half a dozen times every year, I can see, I see my wife sitting on the couch, laughing at her phone, watching something. And I ask her, what are you watching? And she's like, I'm watching the scene from Roseanne, the, the dad's dead. Um, scene, which Norm, as I understand it, wrote, is that right?

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 34:50Josh Horowitz?

  Do you remember reading that scene? And did that strike you as anything particularly special at the time?

• 34:56Speaker 02

  It didn't strike me right off the bat when I read it, uh, as, oh, this is gonna go viral, you know?

• 35:04Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly. It was viral before viral.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Pre-viral, yeah. It did not strike me as that at all. I thought, oh, it's a phone call. Okay, let's see, let's see if, how to do with it. I knew it had a build to it. Starts off a certain way. It's got a great build to it, and then it has a great button at the end.

• 35:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Dad's dead, he sends his love. Click. Don't ever make me do that again. So I knew that the bones of it were great. All I had to do was not mess it up, you know? Because you do feel in front of a live audience that way, and with four cameras positioned between you and the audience, you feel like, I have to nail this. I have to. Because, you know, they're not going to want to see take two, three, four, and five, and it's not going to be as funny. So, um, and so it got that, it got a great laugh. And Roseanne was perfect in setting it up and then coming in at the end, you know,

• 36:11Speaker 02

  to, to, uh, bracket it in her, her comic way. But I didn't, I didn't know that it would be what it is today.

• 36:26Josh Horowitz?

  That we're talking thirty plus years later.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, years later. It's a little mini, mini, mini, little mini world. Just how, just, just, you know, thirty seconds of,

• 36:39Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't, thirty seconds of perfectly written and timed humor.

• 36:44Josh Horowitz?

  No, you're right. It has the whole arc. It has that build and that button, and it just, it's just perfection.

• 36:50Speaker 06

  More Happy Say Confused coming up.

• 36:57Speaker 04

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• 37:26Speaker 07

  You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink, and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue. You're not just watching true crime, you're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch. Welcome to Murder She Watched, the podcast where we recap, dissect, and slightly overanalyze some of the best and craziest true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers. Did the spouse do it? Why is the shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July? Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this documentary? We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV. So every week, we break down the twists, red herrings, and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night.

• 38:10Speaker 07

  It's high drama, cozy vibes, and absolute couch detective energy. Grab your throw blanket and hit subscribe. Search Murder She Watched wherever you listen to podcasts, and let's solve this thing together.

• 38:27Josh Horowitz?

  Here's a random one for you. When I was growing up, a big movie for me, and you were part of an amazing ensemble, was JFK. And I always think of JFK, I mean, I feel like it was like a bunch of amazing actors sweating in New Orleans, delivering just so much exposition, but it was all fascinating. And the filmmaking blew me away. And Oliver is a legend, and you know, a tough cookie to work with. I know for many. Do you have any distinct memories of working with Rooker and Costner and Oliver on that one?

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Um, I just remember it, um, I think it was, it was probably, probably my first time in New Orleans. Um, you would step outside and be covered in sweat. I, you know, just go into the stage or whatever. And I, but I, I remember I had a big, long monologue, and I was very intimidated by it. And of course, you know, it's, it's, it's, uh, On camera, what they ended up doing was mostly cutting away from most of the monologue. But, but I learned it as one piece and I worked really hard on it to be able to rattle it off that way. Um, and I remember being intimidated also by the accent. I thought, I'm terrible

• 39:41Speaker 02

  at accents and I shouldn't even be attempting this. So why am I? Uh, but I think, I have, I want to go back and see the whole movie again because I, I haven't seen it since. And, uh, but, but I remember, you know, being, uh, mostly being, spending my time being intimidated and drilling, drilling, drilling. The information that I had to get out in a hurry in the midst of all this other information that's spilling out.

• 40:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right. It's, it's fascinating. I mean, like, forget like Roseanne for a second, for like a whole generation, like nineties kids, Toy Story, Andy's mom, Scream 2, Nancy Loomis. I mean, these are kind of generational, important roles for a generation.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  I know, I know. There's no plan to it, but I'm telling you, I got, I got everything right at its peak, you know?

• 40:42Josh Horowitz?

  Was, was taking on Scream 2, was part of the joy of that, getting to kind of go off in that final act and like be the killer? I mean, that's, you want, if you're going to be in a Scream movie, you want to be the crazy one. You want to be the one at the end.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Scream 1 had just come out and, um, so I got a call about, uh, possibly portraying the, the killer in Scream 2. And what I loved about it was the reveal. I didn't see the reveal coming. I knew that she was also Debbie Salt, great name, a reporter, a local reporter. But I thought, oh, his mother. That's clever, you know? So, and then, um, yeah, it was days spent at the end, doing all the physical stuff, all the, ugh, gun, you know, making a, uh, having a plaster cast of my forehead made. And, uh, this was way back in the day

• 41:39Speaker 02

  where they actually implanted something, an explosive.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Here in it on my forehead.

• 41:47Josh Horowitz?

  Doesn't seem safe, doesn't seem.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  And I'm none of it was safe. None of it was and and an orchestra pit filled with smoke that you could accidentally walk into. And no, none of it was safe. Uh, but yeah, that thing, you know, it with a with a with a 500. I'm lying on the ground 500 pound camera. On, you know, aimed pointed down at me on stilts or something. Uh, three, two, one detonate, you know, like, oh, my God.

• 42:21Josh Horowitz?

  You never want to have a job where they're saying three, two, one detonate. That's that's a that's a word. That's not a stage direction you want to see.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  No, God.

• 42:31Josh Horowitz?

  A couple of other random ones for you. I know you've you've talked about you've had so many different kind of theater experiences and the misery experience is an interesting one. It was a different it was an unusual kind of production because it was clearly playing to that film audience even more than the Stephen King audience. Like the people that knew what that movie and they, you know, they wanted to satisfy those folks. And the opportunity to work with Bruce, who you you said very kind things about. And and I'm so happy to hear that, obviously, who's had some terrible troubles in recent years. But, I mean, happiest memories revolve around working with Bruce, I would imagine. I mean, what comes to mind when you think about misery?

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Definitely. Bruce is one of the most generous people I've ever met with. It was basically only the two of us. I had to shoot a sheriff halfway through, but whatever. Um, but it was mostly just the two of us. And so he was in the bed at the beginning of the of the show. And I was going to be standing, watching him. And, um, there was a curtain, I believe, or the the thing rotated. So we were hidden from the audience. And so they'd get him all in the bed with prosthetics on and his leg. He had he would come in like hours early to do all this leg makeup because his legs were all beat up and everything.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  And I'd sit on the bed with him and we would talk over our day and kids and, you know, um. Uh, I was saying, well, my, my oldest son's coming to town. Where should we go? And he goes, oh, you gotta take him to Nobu, especially if you like sushi. And so we ended up, and the next day, um, I said, Bruce, at the top of the show, I'm taking Will to Nobu. We're very excited. He said, oh, great. I hope you like it. And then the next day, uh, maybe after the second show, Will and I went, ordered a ton of stuff. We're seated in a extremely nice booth there, as I remember. And of course, went to pay and afterwards, oh, I'm sorry, this has been taken care of by Mr. Willis.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Um, in, it, it, just handing out gifts right and left to, to the cast and the crew. He is incredibly generous man. And, uh, so yeah, those are my, he filled every seat in that house. Sold out because everybody came to see him. And yeah, they knew the title misery, uh, from the movie. It was a weird hybrid between being a book and then a movie and now a play. So it had some of the best and worst of everything all jammed together.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  But, um, but, but they were just screaming his name in the curtain call. You know, everybody was just so happy to be in his presence.

• 45:20Josh Horowitz?

  And then you get this gift of a script and direction from Greta Gerwig in Lady Bird. After not doing a film for a while.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Long time.

• 45:30Josh Horowitz?

  Long time. You work with Saoirse, who's as great as they come. I absolutely adore her. Um, you're reading that script, do you, when you read that kind of opening sequence in the car, her jumping out of the car, is it immediately apparent that this is unique material? What struck you about that?

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. I had a phone call with her and I said, honestly, I, I have four kids and I have one right now that's going through this. Butting heads with, you know, mom and this was not a daughter but a son. But the butting of heads and sort of around the same age and I said, I think I understand this material. And so we had a great conversation, but when it was time to film that opening scene in the car. Susha and I had so much fun. We were the only ones in the car and it was being pulled. It was being towed. So I didn't really have to worry about driving.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  And it was a scene where, you know, it had some length to it. You know, it was maybe two minutes long or something and that does, that sounds short, but it's lengthy. You know, to, to, to have a two-character chat like that, you know? And so we got to do it multiple times and we got to overlap and we got, we got a rhythm going, you know? And, and besides the fact of it being so well-written and so perfectly setting up these two characters early on in the, in the show.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  It was so much fun to do.

• 47:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't know. I, it was, it just seemed, it seemed organic. Um, and Greta, of course, set the tone during the whole shoot of being so inclusive and open and, and collaborative. It was a, was a, it was a dream of a, of a movie shoot and I hadn't, I still have only done probably a handful of movies. But that was by far the, the loveliest one to work on.

• 47:41Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, are you, where are you at in terms of looking for, I mean, obviously, big mistakes is keeping you busy. Theater's keeping you busy, but does, does interesting film work just not come around very often or you, is it just few and far between? What, what do you get offered in terms of film right now?

• 47:55Speaker 02

  I, um, I haven't seen anything. I haven't been sent anything.

• 48:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Maybe a part here or there that's been, you know, certainly not a lead, a smallish part, but that was a conflict, you know? So, so I couldn't do it, but um, it's not, it's not my favorite way of working anyway.

• 48:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  So, you know, I don't really think, oh God, what am I missing? Um, I just prefer, I prefer the other ways of working anyway, so I'm not, uh, you know, it doesn't really...

• 48:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you're not wanting for great material, who cares?

• 48:43Speaker 02

  I'm not, I don't, I don't have my agent on speed dial saying where all the moving worlds coming in.

• 48:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, exactly. We end every Happy Second Fuse with some profoundly random questions, Lori, if you'll indulge me. Are you a dog or a cat person?

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Dog.

• 48:58Josh Horowitz?

  Big time, right? Like, your dog, I hear, comes to the theater?

• 49:01Speaker 02

  I've had cats and I love my, here, here's what it is, I lo-

• 49:07Speaker 02

  I've had cats, two cats, and I loved them, but I don't like all cats. So that's why I say dog.

• 49:16Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, okay. Do you collect anything?

• 49:21Speaker 02

  I'm looking around. Um, well, it's not a collection, but I go through, uh, jigsaw puzzles like you wouldn't believe.

• 49:31Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 49:32Speaker 02

  So in my closet, there's like a stack of 25 of them, probably that I've already done, and I need to donate somewhere.

• 49:40Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. What's the wallpaper on your phone? The background on your phone?

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a picture, you wanna see it?

• 49:46Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  It's a picture of, uh, you can't really see, but, uh, it's-

• 49:52Josh Horowitz?

  Pretty landscape?

• 49:54Speaker 02

  It's, uh, yeah, beautiful, um, picture from property I have in Idaho.

• 50:00Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, lovely. Um, who's the last actor you were mistaken for?

• 50:07Speaker 02

  It never really happens, but I was joking with Chris Abbott the other day that

• 50:16Speaker 02

  if they were to recast, you know, us in our parts in Salesman. And it's, he can't do it now because he has passed away, but for Linda Lohman, it would have been Bob Denver. That's my, that's my lookalike person.

• 50:35Josh Horowitz?

  Didn't see that one coming, but amazing. And what's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 50:45Speaker 02

  The worst note?

• 50:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Well, there are no,

• 50:52Speaker 02

  personally, and

• 50:56Speaker 02

  because there are notes that people tell you that are just undoable. You know, like be funnier, um, you know.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  So it'd be like, be funnier, be sexier.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I think be sexier was the worst note I ever got, and it didn't even have anything to do with the role. As far as I could know.

• 51:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And finally, in the spirit of Happy SAG Confused, who's an actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, on the stage, you're immediately in a better mood.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Well, um, I'm going to say Joaquin Phoenix, just because I, I'm so,

• 51:39Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm, I'm a bit obsessed by him and the projects that he chooses and his commitment.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  But lately, uh, somebody that I'm also obsessing about is Joshua Henry in Ragtime.

• 51:58Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah, I just saw that production. Great. Yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he's, he was, he is so moving and, uh, he's, he's got everything. He's got the voice, he's got the acting, he's, he's, um, thrilling to watch.

• 52:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. A movie that makes you sad always, brings you to tears?

• 52:19Speaker 02

  Um, I don't really go to those.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Um, hmm, a movie. Like, what's yours?

• 52:28Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, a go-to that for me and many people, Terms of Endearment often comes up.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 52:33Josh Horowitz?

  Cinema Paradiso is the one that I think of. Um, could be a Pixar movie, a lot for, you know, a lot of Pixar movies bring people to tears.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Pixar does that well. They really do. Yeah. I guess back in the day, it was E.T. for me, you know?

• 52:50Josh Horowitz?

  Perfect. Yeah, of course. And finally, a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Aspic.

• 53:02Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah. What is it? That's like the gelatin? Like, there's like a, it's?

• 53:06Speaker 02

  It's, yes, it's see-through and it's

• 53:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  jiggly and it's, um, gelatinous. Gross.

• 53:16Josh Horowitz?

  None of the things we like in our foods.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Uh, it might be used as a stealant also for, for, for hams and meats and stuff.

• 53:26Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  I don't under, I don't understand. That's what my character says at the, at the requiem at the end. I don't understand it.

• 53:35Josh Horowitz?

  That's what you're thinking about at the end? You're thinking about aspic? Now, now what's in your head?

• 53:39Speaker 02

  Well, now, like, tonight I am, yes.

• 53:42Josh Horowitz?

  Great. I'm glad we've informed your performance. Um, thank you so much for the time today. I really, really appreciate it. And the performance and the production is absolutely stellar. Everybody should check out if they can. Death of a Salesman, Big Mistakes. I'm so happy it's coming back for a second season.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 53:57Josh Horowitz?

  Um, Lori, I really appreciate the time. Thank you so much today.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Thanks, Josh.

• 54:03Speaker 07

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

• 54:21Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Whitney.

• 54:22Speaker 07

  And I'm Katie.

• 54:23Speaker 04

  And we're the hosts of True Crime Campfire. We set out to make a true crime podcast we'd want to listen to. We get right to the story. We don't do a lot of extra talkin', and when we do, it's usually to roast the short hairs off of some loser murderer or scammer. You'll laugh, but only at the people who deserve it.

• 54:40Speaker 07

  Like, which serial killer would you most like to shove into a locker?

• 54:43Speaker 04

  BTK and his awful poetry. Dude got caught because he didn't understand what a floppy disk was.

• 54:50Speaker 07

  We look for the stranger-than-fiction stories, like the case of Patty James, a killer catfish before the internet was even a thing.

• 54:56Speaker 04

  Or Howard Walmsley, a sentient wad of damp laundry who convinced his town he'd won the lottery, fleeced local businesses out of thousands, and then became a romance scammer.

• 55:06Speaker 07

  We've covered tons of cases you've never heard of: cults, scammers, killers.

• 55:11Speaker 04

  So come find your next great binge. Listen to True Crime Campfire on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Friday.