‘Project Hail Mary,’ ‘Marshals,’ ‘Jury Duty Presents: Company Retreat,’ and ‘SNL UK.’ Plus, ‘Paradise’ S2E7.

Chris and Andy talk about what the early success of ‘Project Hail Mary’ means for big-spectacle movies in theaters (4:01). Then they check in with a handful of shows across the TV landscape, including ‘Marshals’ (20:37), ‘American Classic’ (28:57), ‘Jury Duty Presents: Company Retreat’ (36:04), and ‘SNL UK’ (45:31). Later, they discuss ‘Paradise’ Season 2, Episode 7 (54:13). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:05Speaker 02

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk, now!

• 1:11Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com. And joining me in the studio, he'll have some apple pie, it's Andy Greenwald!

• 1:23Andy Greenwald?

  Different studio setup today.

• 1:24Chris Ryan?

  Different studio. We're at our Sycamore Studios. I think we're allowed to say that that's the name of the studios.

• 1:30Andy Greenwald?

  Well, we're not here when we're recording, so don't all rush out in front.

• 1:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, exactly. Please, and if you do, form an orderly line to meet Andy.

• 1:41Andy Greenwald?

  Thank him for his service.

• 1:42Chris Ryan?

  For me, you can just rush.

• 1:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:44Chris Ryan?

  Bull rush me, I don't care. It's Monday!

• 1:46Andy Greenwald?

  It's more that I'm concerned that, like, it's Monday, but I do feel like we are either going to be looking at each other or we could be judging the Westminster Dog Show if we look forward.

• 1:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, this is a little bit of a Weekend Update table, which is appropriate because we are going to talk a little bit about Saturday Night Live UK today, as well as Paradise. Andy and I are playing a little bit of show and tell today.

• 2:04Andy Greenwald?

  Good boy.

• 2:05Chris Ryan?

  And I mean that in the originalist Samuel Alito way of show and tell. Where you bring something to class to present to to your classmates.

• 2:14Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 2:14Chris Ryan?

  You know, we kind of had this weird moment of TV where post industry, uh, like in the throes of the pit. We're all loving it, but post industry, post Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. I don't know if something has grabbed our full and undivided passionate attention. That's new over the last couple of weeks, but doesn't mean we're not doing the work. It doesn't mean we're not watching tape, scouting shows. And what we decided to do today is rather than unite and talk about one show, we did, we're gonna do Paradise together.

• 2:47Andy Greenwald?

  Paradise.

• 2:47Chris Ryan?

  But we'll, we'll bring some, some work to the table, right?

• 2:51Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, I feel a little bit of pressure, but yeah.

• 2:53Chris Ryan?

  What, like, how so? You're 50% of this podcast.

• 2:56Andy Greenwald?

  I 50% of the podcast, but 15% of the work. Which our numbers would be tough to negotiate.

• 3:02Chris Ryan?

  I will guide you through this process. Before we get into it, it's the watch at spotify.com. It's the watch pod underscore on Instagram. It's a ringer dash TV channel on youtube.com or on your YouTube app. And you can listen to us and watch us on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. Some of the other shows that we're gonna talk about today in case people are interested. Jury Duty Company Retreat, SNL UK, as I mentioned. Marshals.

• 3:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 3:28Chris Ryan?

  Can't wait to discuss that with you.

• 3:31Andy Greenwald?

  So here's the, here's the thing that I'm concerned about today's show, if I can be honest. I do think that maybe what we should have done, it's a little bit late now, but we probably should have assigned each other something. Because I think we're kind of.

• 3:41Chris Ryan?

  Ozaki movie kind of thing.

• 3:42Andy Greenwald?

  Well.

• 3:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:43Andy Greenwald?

  You keep circling that, keep pushing the bruise. It's almost like we're telling on ourselves a little bit because when we were allowed to retreat to our respective culture corners. You went and you watched Marshals and I watched American Classic, a elderly sitcom about the American theater.

• 3:58Chris Ryan?

  I think that's what makes, peanut butter doesn't work without jelly. You know what I mean?

• 4:02Andy Greenwald?

  It does.

• 4:03Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's fine without jelly.

• 4:04Andy Greenwald?

  You could put honey too.

• 4:05Chris Ryan?

  If I want to start the Chris Ryan show, I guess I could do it.

• 4:08Andy Greenwald?

  100% could do it. It would do crazy numbers. Has this only occurred to you now?

• 4:13Chris Ryan?

  But, no, because like, I don't want to just stare at a camera and be like in episode two of Marshall's, Casey revisits the zone of death.

• 4:21Andy Greenwald?

  No, I think that, first of all,

• 4:22Chris Ryan?

  The famous graveyard of Yellowstone.

• 4:24Andy Greenwald?

  First of all, it's, there are a couple of different ways you could do it. I've been, I've been really consuming a lot of content of like, solo travel influencers who now seem to have like, remote control drones following them, so it looks like they're being filmed.

• 4:37Chris Ryan?

  Reader, we all do.

• 4:38Andy Greenwald?

  And I think that would be what you would do. You'd be like, walking in the neighborhood, people would be like, "What's up, CR?" You'd be like, "Okay, okay."

• 4:45Chris Ryan?

  But in like Buenos Aires?

• 4:47Andy Greenwald?

  No, Silver Lake, you'd be giving a salad.

• 4:49Chris Ryan?

  So my travel would be like, 10 minutes west of me?

• 4:52Andy Greenwald?

  How much free time? I mean, do you want to travel further?

• 4:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:55Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 4:55Chris Ryan?

  I want to see the world.

• 4:56Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, well, get in line, get in line now for TSA.

• 4:59Chris Ryan?

  Not a lot of big headlines coming out of the weekend of news. I mean, a lot of people have probably spent their time watching tournament games. There, it is worth noting, I think that Project Hail Mary is a big fat hit. First of all,

• 5:12Andy Greenwald?

  This is great.

• 5:12Chris Ryan?

  I think that's awesome. It's an original sci-fi concept based on Andy Weir's novel. Andy Weir obviously wrote The Martian. Everybody should listen to Andy on House of R, and Lorden Miller went on Big Picture. So definitely check those out if you're looking for more in-depth Project Hail Mary content. I know you didn't get a chance to see it.

• 5:32Andy Greenwald?

  Can I, can I confess something?

• 5:33Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 5:34Andy Greenwald?

  Because this is embarrassing. You kind of called me on this.

• 5:36Chris Ryan?

  No, I didn't.

• 5:37Andy Greenwald?

  My brain, no, no, you did in a good way, because I really want to see the movie. And I was with the kids, and it didn't occur to me until I had like, missed the potential screening window to see it, that I could take them to a movie that wasn't like Moana 3.

• 5:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:51Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know, I, I want to apologize to our listeners for that. That was on me. I forgot that like, they're old enough now to go see a movie without songs by Lin-Manuel Miranda in it.

• 6:01Chris Ryan?

  Take them to Hamlet. Be like, suck it up.

• 6:04Andy Greenwald?

  Uncle Chris prefers movies that go like this. What are your thoughts?

• 6:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:09Andy Greenwald?

  Suck it up.

• 6:12Chris Ryan?

  You don't have it so bad, do you?

• 6:14Andy Greenwald?

  Also, you know, he caught a couple else, but dad did all right. Dad rebounded.

• 6:20Chris Ryan?

  Road, road handling.

• 6:21Andy Greenwald?

  He turned that pain into art.

• 6:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Andy Greenwald?

  Imagine the second season of Sick the Landing I could do.

• 6:25Chris Ryan?

  Oh, my God. Uh, yeah. Anyway, I thought your kids would like this movie.

• 6:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 6:29Chris Ryan?

  Uh, it is a bit long. I don't know how they do with the two and two hour and like, I think it's thirty to twenty something.

• 6:36Andy Greenwald?

  My older daughter said that the Conan bit at the Oscars where he did the split screen with Subway surfers. The way that like YouTube and Tik Tok, that's what they are. She legitimately said that that was the most engaging part of the broadcast for her.

• 6:48Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Well, that doesn't bode well for the future of monoculture. Unless Subway surfing indeed becomes the monoculture. I just think it's, it's a really cool story for, uh, the movie business. Their first cue of the year to have a big.

• 7:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 7:04Chris Ryan?

  Big hit like this. And it's like, you know, we did Nice Guys on rewatchables that'll be going up today. And, uh, I guess it's time to like wreck him with like, maybe Ryan Gosling is, is him. You know, I think he had had a couple of years there where, whether it was Barbie or, um, Fall Guy where it was like, you know, Barbie, he's obviously playing a supporting role, but Fall Guy is like a definite like choice from him to make a different kind of movie than he had when it was like Nice Guys, La La Land, First Man, and Have Nelson all the way back. I love Have Nelson.

• 7:39Andy Greenwald?

  Me too.

• 7:39Chris Ryan?

  But, um, it's pretty impressive to watch him sell this all over the world, charm every single junket interviewer he's got.

• 7:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 7:48Chris Ryan?

  Uh, go on all the shows and he is the, like, if you don't like Ryan Gosling, I don't think you should see this movie because it is ninety percent him talking to another character.

• 7:59Andy Greenwald?

  But what do you think? Are we too quick? This is, this is kind of a big picture conversation, literally the show, the big picture conversation. I don't want to step on their toes with this, but like, are we too quick to declare someone a movie star or not a movie star in this era? Because he is, he has, he, he ticks all the boxes. He's beloved. He's incredibly talented. He, uh, is charming in comedy and drama. And he can hold camera and hold attention and sell a movie like this. It's just him, basically, around the world. That was true when Barbie came out and everyone was like, oh, my God, we love this guy. It's almost like we forgot. And then Fall Guy came out, it was still true. Fall Guy wasn't a very good movie. And there were some, I think, pretty quick obituaries of his career as a leading man when opportunities are different in the 2020s.

• 8:44Andy Greenwald?

  And they were 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago.

• 8:47Chris Ryan?

  I've been thinking about this with all, Chalamet and Leo and a bunch of actors and their choices to, I mean, obviously it's a privilege, but also they're, they choose to work with the best possible directors that they can. And I think that Gosling has gone through like different phases of his life. Like there's obviously like a difference between the Blue Valentine, half Nelson part. Then there's they kind of like post, like, I don't know, like crazy stupid love where he's like doing a, you know, a bunch of different genres, working with a bunch of different filmmakers. He seemed like he was gonna do like I'm Damien Chazelle's De Niro. Like, I think he was kind of on this trajectory of like, I'm a pretty serious actor.

• 9:30Andy Greenwald?

  Drive.

• 9:30Chris Ryan?

  Drive. But that then kind of like was like, you know what? I think I want to have like way more fun while I work and maybe feel a little bit better at the end of a day. And so his roles that he's done in the last couple of years have been pretty lighthearted. And this is of a piece with it. It just happens to be probably the best movie. Well, I, you know, Barbie is, is obviously Barbie, but like this is the most successful execution of Ryan Gosling Charm Machine that I've seen in recent years.

• 9:57Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know who's really, really happy today? The folks at Lucasfilm.

• 10:01Chris Ryan?

  Oh, because they got Starfighter coming.

• 10:02Andy Greenwald?

  Because they built their.

• 10:04Chris Ryan?

  What is that? That's next year?

• 10:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 10:06Andy Greenwald?

  But it's built around, want to go to space with this guy?

• 10:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:10Andy Greenwald?

  The answer is a resounding yes.

• 10:11Chris Ryan?

  Yes, it sounds like it. What do you want to do first? Should we do some paradise? Did you have anything else on the?

• 10:17Andy Greenwald?

  Any other news, any other things?

• 10:18Chris Ryan?

  Not really.

• 10:20Andy Greenwald?

  Can I ask you a question?

• 10:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Andy Greenwald?

  This is, this is just throwing this at you. But I saw news today that a show that I was curious about, but have not engaged with, Star Trek, Starfleet Academy, was just canceled.

• 10:31Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 10:33Andy Greenwald?

  We are not-

• 10:34Chris Ryan?

  Is that Giamatti and Holly Hunter?

• 10:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. We are not historically Star Trek watchers or discussers on the show. But as a, you know, we, we, we, we're the watchers on the wall of IP to a degree.

• 10:46Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:47Andy Greenwald?

  And I find this very, very confusing. And maybe the answer is just there, there's been a lot of turmoil at all the streamers and Paramount is not immune to it. And the Cindy Holland regime may have a different attitude about this beloved plank of their, of their, uh, business than the previous regime. And that, that might be it.

• 11:05Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:06Andy Greenwald?

  But my sense of the show, and what made me curious about it, not curious enough to watch it yet, so it's on me, was that this felt like a bigger swing to reignite the franchise.

• 11:18Chris Ryan?

  Oh, okay.

• 11:18Andy Greenwald?

  Like, we're gonna get a big star again, but we're gonna make it younger or sexier. We're gonna do, there've been rumors of like, uh, uh, Hogwarts for Star Trek for years. And then they made the show and they seem to put a lot of money and attention into it. And now they're just sort of casually pulling the plug after two years. Feels, feels odd to me in terms of the priority that I thought that stuff had for their brand management. Maybe they no longer, maybe they wanna reboot the whole thing again, or maybe part of their attitude is all of our energy is now gonna go into DC and all the stuff we're about to acquire.

• 11:52Chris Ryan?

  I, I think it's the former. So I think that the way that they had been running Star Trek for the last like five, six, seven years, especially since, yeah, but like, as they kind of had rolled out, I think it's like half a dozen shows on Paramount that at various points were running, that it was like, you know what, there is a baseline audience for this stuff of passionate Trekkies that keeps it afloat and we're gonna spend accordingly, like, we're never gonna get two out in front of our skis with budget.

• 12:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 12:25Chris Ryan?

  And we're just gonna kind of serve the audience, but it's not gonna pop beyond that probably, right? Like, there were some nice reviews for certain things. I know you checked out like Picard when it came out, but for the most part-

• 12:37Andy Greenwald?

  That's where I first learned about Dr. Trinity Santos.

• 12:40Chris Ryan?

  Aziz Abriano's in Picard? I didn't know that.

• 12:42Andy Greenwald?

  Sure, good.

• 12:44Chris Ryan?

  But that's not really a moneymaker for them.

• 12:47Andy Greenwald?

  No, but it's.

• 12:49Chris Ryan?

  They have to have it be, could we get a Star Trek movie to be a 500 to 750 million dollar movie? And I don't remember how much the first Star Trek with Pine made.

• 12:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 12:59Chris Ryan?

  But it's got, they, they probably are like, this IP has the potential to be a blockbuster. We can't just let it languish in making a procedural television show every week.

• 13:10Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's probably the retrenchment and the new plan because I, we, we don't talk about it enough because generally we don't talk about it. But when we have discussed over the past few years, the missteps in the management of Star Wars and even Marvel, one of the major points of conversation is it was diluted and made to feel a lot less special when it was something that was just showing up on our televisions and on our streaming services. And that was the entire plan with Star Trek for the last 10 years. Like this is more valuable to us as something, as like, as you said, as a floor setter of audience that will subscribe to our service as long as somebody is beaming somewhere.

• 13:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 13:50Andy Greenwald?

  And they may now be looking at it and being like, we have devalued this to the point where it's sort of generationally null and void and we need to reimagine the whole thing.

• 14:00Chris Ryan?

  I think that if you've got something that's set in outer space.

• 14:03Andy Greenwald?

  Put Ryan Gosling in it. Is that your advice? It's good advice.

• 14:06Chris Ryan?

  Make something that can go on IMAX. Make something that can play and be an event cinema thing. I mean, there was this viral clip of Gosling going around from introducing Project Hail Mary at, I don't know if it was Lincoln Center or wherever the IMAX theater is in New York City. And he was like, thank you for coming out to movie theaters. It's not your job to the audience. It's not your job to keep theaters open. It's our job to make movies that make you want to come to movie theaters.

• 14:31Andy Greenwald?

  Whoa.

• 14:31Chris Ryan?

  And.

• 14:32Andy Greenwald?

  Did Sean, did Sean get like a tingling in the back of his neck?

• 14:35Chris Ryan?

  I actually would love to hear what Sean has to say about that because I take that not necessarily as like, we have to make large format movies that appropriately play on 70 millimeter or IMAX screens. I think it's something that makes it feel, there's got to be a quality right now that makes you feel like this is worth, not, this is worth inconveniencing myself because like so much of what entertainment has become, this actually leads into how I wanted to talk about some of our show and tell stuff, is so much of like entertainment is about convenience now that you just have too many differing.

• 15:09Chris Ryan?

  Basically approaches to how people want to consume TV or movies. And so you've taken away the singularity of like, well, if I want to see this within the next 18 months, I have to go see it at a movie theater. You could extend windows and all that, but like if somebody's just like, I think Ready or Not 2 will play just as well on my flat screen television as it does in the movie theater. Then they're just gonna wait. And I don't know how to, I don't know how to thread that needle necessarily.

• 15:36Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 15:37Chris Ryan?

  I don't know, I don't know what that means for anything that's like smaller than a Project Hail Mary, or smaller than Doomsday, or smaller than Dune 3, or Odyssey. What makes that kind of movie? I mean, like, look, The Housemaid made a ton of money. There's still an audience. Colin Hoover movies make money. People go out to see movies, but it's a little bit more, it's hard to like gauge anymore what non IMAX stuff will perform.

• 16:01Andy Greenwald?

  Well, look, Gustav's childhood home in Oslo looks, honestly looks shitty at home, at your own house. You gotta go see it in the biggest screen possible.

• 16:09Chris Ryan?

  Did you see sentimental value on a big screen?

• 16:11Andy Greenwald?

  I don't have to answer that. I intended to, but I did not. It's also worth thinking about it in terms of the flip side of that argument, which is one of the reasons, and we shouldn't, I'm not trying to gleefully like pre-write the obituary here, but I think that one of the major obstacles for Mandalorian and Grogu is that it's, it's like, well, this is a TV show. And the volume has trained a mini generation of audience to be like, well, I can see these things, I can see these things on my screens at home. What is, what's the value at? What am I, what's different in the theater? And it can't just be like, you know, a novelty, Ughnot popcorn bucket.

• 16:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and I just, I think even if you were to take away the idea that people are already very familiar with the characters and have seen hours of footage of these people already, which is totally fine, because we've seen hours of footage of the Avengers and we're gonna go see them in December. What's of, what's at stake?

• 17:06Andy Greenwald?

  You ask me out? Are you gonna see it together?

• 17:09Chris Ryan?

  I'll go, yes, the answer is yes.

• 17:12Andy Greenwald?

  I got your rose.

• 17:14Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's a tough time for the Bachelorette franchise.

• 17:18Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, do you want to comment on that?

• 17:20Chris Ryan?

  I did some Taylor Frankie Paul reading this week. Do you know who this person is?

• 17:24Andy Greenwald?

  You said it in a way that you're like, the three names made it sound like this is like a congressional historian.

• 17:29Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I thought it made it sound like more like a graduate of the Iowa Writers Program. And it's like, I read some Taylor Frankie Paul short stories and-

• 17:37Andy Greenwald?

  What's interesting about Taylor-

• 17:38Chris Ryan?

  They remind me of Deborah Eisenberg. It's kind of-

• 17:40Andy Greenwald?

  You know, Taylor Frankie Paul enlisted in the Marine Corps at a young age and did serve in Afghanistan. And so her perspective that she brings to the novel form-

• 17:48Chris Ryan?

  It's true.

• 17:48Andy Greenwald?

  Is really moving.

• 17:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:50Andy Greenwald?

  You know?

• 17:50Chris Ryan?

  She seems like a wild girl, man.

• 17:52Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, that's your review?

• 17:54Chris Ryan?

  She's on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

• 17:57Andy Greenwald?

  Kaya is ready. Kaya is worried that the camera's gonna spin there.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  I'm saying all my like key words right now.

• 18:02Andy Greenwald?

  She's never been more dialed in.

• 18:04Chris Ryan?

  Videos of like when they are around a dog and they're like, yeah, I want to go to the park.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:09Chris Ryan?

  She's on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, which I've never seen. And then she had gone from that show and she immediately became like the Bachelorette.

• 18:19Chris Ryan?

  You're gonna ask her, cause she knows.

• 18:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, Kaya, I feel like Mormon Wives, I feel like I know about their public facing lives. I don't want to assume too much.

• 18:26Chris Ryan?

  No, cause there's this whole mom talk thing.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Cause they're secret, the secret lives.

• 18:29Andy Greenwald?

  Right, so I'm saying, so what is secret about their lives?

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, soft swinging. Yeah.

• 18:33Andy Greenwald?

  Excuse me, soft swinging?

• 18:35Chris Ryan?

  Not that soft, though.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  No, well, she called it soft swinging.

• 18:38Andy Greenwald?

  Soft swinging is like when you go for frozen yogurt with some else's husband?

• 18:43Chris Ryan?

  They went to third base.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 18:46Andy Greenwald?

  Don't make me ask, like-

• 18:47Chris Ryan?

  You know what third base is broadly, right?

• 18:50Andy Greenwald?

  I know what third base was, but I feel like the way things are going-

• 18:53Chris Ryan?

  And who knows how the Mormons interpret the text, you know what I mean? But I think it just is supposed to let you know everything up to the biblical deed.

• 19:02Andy Greenwald?

  Everything up to touching home.

• 19:05Chris Ryan?

  Yes, yes.

• 19:06Andy Greenwald?

  Sorry, when you said third base, I thought about how JP Crawford ripped a triple before his call up to the major league. So that's the secret life I'm interested in.

• 19:12Chris Ryan?

  I thought you were thinking about the gas face.

• 19:14Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 19:14Chris Ryan?

  MC Search and Pete Nice.

• 19:15Andy Greenwald?

  Do you watch the Bachelor and Bachelorette franchises, Kaya?

• 19:18Speaker 05

  So I used to, and I have, but I haven't tuned in in a couple of years, but I was all set to tune in to Taylor Frankie Paul season.

• 19:25Andy Greenwald?

  So is this a sign, what, give me my easy, older man hot take, what, prep me. Is this a sign of the debasement of this once romantic franchise that now they have to dumpster dive for celebrity weirdos?

• 19:38Chris Ryan?

  It was Disney's effort to fully vertically integrate because Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is like a Hulu show, Bachelor's, an ABC thing. So they were like, we're gonna take somebody from a reality show that we already have, and even further, upstream them. And she had a pretty serious domestic violence, and I guess is the best way to put it.

• 19:59Chris Ryan?

  In which some footage was leaked of her, like, going off.

• 20:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 20:02Chris Ryan?

  And so they pulled the season that she's on.

• 20:07Andy Greenwald?

  They filmed the season.

• 20:08Chris Ryan?

  But they're like, fully like, they've shot another Mormon Wives season or not? Or they were shooting it?

• 20:13Speaker 05

  The fifth season of Mormon Wives just aired. They're, they were in production on season six, but the production shortly before they canned the Bachelorette season, they had stopped down production on season six of Mormon Wives.

• 20:25Chris Ryan?

  To let her go do Bachelorette.

• 20:26Speaker 05

  No, she had already wrapped filming because she had more, um, she was having more issues and more

• 20:34Chris Ryan?

  Oh, with her guy.

• 20:34Speaker 05

  domestic violence issues with her partner. And so they had paused production on season six.

• 20:39Chris Ryan?

  But there's like, also like a sub-layer of it, that's like, what's real and what's not. And we're like, she's, she is, is she, was she still with this guy for up until the point of going on?

• 20:51Andy Greenwald?

  Kind of a semantics guy, but I realize now, it's tough to go from being a Mormon wife to a Bachelorette without some bumps in the road. Right, like you can't.

• 20:59Chris Ryan?

  I think that would be the pitch for this season. Yeah. Yeah.

• 21:02Andy Greenwald?

  Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to market this.

• 21:05Chris Ryan?

  In any case.

• 21:06Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 21:07Chris Ryan?

  I read about that this weekend.

• 21:08Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, how was that?

• 21:09Chris Ryan?

  I mean, it was an interesting New York Magazine profile of her, quite, quite well timed. And I watched, uh, Michael Powell and Emmerich Pressburger's A Canterbury Tale.

• 21:18Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 21:18Chris Ryan?

  Quite good.

• 21:19Andy Greenwald?

  You contained fucking multitudes, dog. That's incredible. You did both those things, high and low?

• 21:24Chris Ryan?

  I did. What would you like to talk about? The shared experience of watching Paradise, or some of our...

• 21:29Andy Greenwald?

  No, let's end with the shared experience. Let's, let's run through a couple of shows to give people a sense of what they should or shouldn't be watching.

• 21:34Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 21:34Andy Greenwald?

  We used to do that.

• 21:35Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 21:35Andy Greenwald?

  We used to offer a service.

• 21:36Chris Ryan?

  I'm gonna talk about Marshals real quick.

• 21:38Andy Greenwald?

  Take your time.

• 21:39Chris Ryan?

  Do you feel like you still need bad TV in your life?

• 21:42Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, well, I feel like I've been getting a steady diet.

• 21:45Chris Ryan?

  No, that's not what I mean, though. I don't mean TV that aims to be good but winds up missing the mark.

• 21:50Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 21:50Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I don't mean 57-minute shows that like,

• 21:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 21:54Chris Ryan?

  you're just kinda like, maybe I just don't really care about these people or what happens to them, or whether or not this works out for X, Y, or Z. I mean, straight up, like, I'm watching this.

• 22:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Chris Ryan?

  I can't really, like, it's, it's essentially shot like an episode of The Drew Barrymore Show. I can't really tell, like, seven of the characters' names, but I remember one guy's name. But there is just enough of a story that will be resolved in the 42 minutes that I am watching this.

• 22:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 22:23Chris Ryan?

  That I will blithely have it on. Now, Sam S. Mel always used to make fun of us for the idea of a laundry show, like, a show that you're walking in and out of the room for.

• 22:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 22:31Chris Ryan?

  But I think I've found it.

• 22:33Andy Greenwald?

  Talk to me.

• 22:34Chris Ryan?

  It's Marshals.

• 22:34Andy Greenwald?

  Now, Marshals is part of the larger Yellowstone project.

• 22:38Chris Ryan?

  Interesting. I, I'm not gonna get into, like, uh, a huge reading of the state of the Taylor Sheridan universe, because I know that there's, like, only a select group of people who listen to us really give a shit about it. But this is an interesting expansion, because it is one of two. This one, and then The Dutton Ranch, which is coming in May.

• 22:58Andy Greenwald?

  And what's that coming on?

• 22:59Chris Ryan?

  Uh, that's Paramount Plus, and that's Cole and, and, uh, Cole Hauser and Kelly Riley, extending the Yellowstone story.

• 23:07Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 23:08Chris Ryan?

  In Texas.

• 23:08Andy Greenwald?

  But this is on CBS?

• 23:09Chris Ryan?

  This is on CBS. Both shows are not written by Taylor Sheridan.

• 23:12Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 23:13Chris Ryan?

  Uh, both shows are more of like, based on characters created by Taylor Sheridan and executive produced by Taylor Sheridan.

• 23:20Andy Greenwald?

  But written by Claude?

• 23:21Chris Ryan?

  Uh, no. I would say that the, the first two episodes of Marshals is actually like... Made me mad because I was like, a more prestigious execution of this story would be interesting. It's very, very reminiscent to me of the times when I've been, you know, when I would be at my mom's house and like, Chicago Fire, 19 episodes of Chicago Fire would be on and I would be like, I, for some reason, I am following this even though I'm like in the room one tenth of the time.

• 23:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 23:49Chris Ryan?

  It's basically about the character Casey was my favorite character on Yellowstone, which is why I give Marshals a shot. Just all of a sudden becoming a marshal, which honestly, they handle in about three minutes and I'm totally fine with.

• 23:59Andy Greenwald?

  That's fine.

• 24:00Chris Ryan?

  And he's in a, like a high intensity guns forward part of the Marshals with Logan Marshall Green, a couple of other people. And the second episode is actually really cool. Like it's kind of Sicario light, Aryan Brotherhood and Mexican cartels are doing a fentanyl deal in the Zone of Death, which is like the Montana Wyoming border.

• 24:22Andy Greenwald?

  Is that what they're calling it now?

• 24:23Chris Ryan?

  Well, that's where they used to dump bodies on Yellowstone.

• 24:26Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, oh, so it is referencing.

• 24:28Chris Ryan?

  It does. It does make some references and it's actually like a pretty good episode of television, but it did strike me that like, there's so much stuff, not only that's on right now.

• 24:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 24:41Chris Ryan?

  Stuff that is on recently enough, like I've, I've mentioned a couple of times my shame at never catching up on Dark Winds, you know?

• 24:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it seems like something we would really like.

• 24:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And I'm like, well, I'm watching Yellow, I'm watching Marshals, which has some stuff to recommend and then there's parts of it that you're just like, I, I need to be put to sleep. But there is a weird extra layer of guilt to watching bad television when you know you could always be watching something that at least has a promise of being really good.

• 25:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but there's also a reason why we eat snack food and like dependable, like comfort food, that's fine. I think that the rhythms of that, and, and, and when we talk about Paradise, this will come into play too, because Paradise is so broadcast television, it's DNA, that there are, that it is possible to skate along the surface of the show. It is possible to, dare I say it, at least consider doing a load of whites, you know, while you're dancing between the bunker and the outside world.

• 25:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:46Andy Greenwald?

  But you're right in the sense that because that part of my diet is, I'm lacking in that part of the diet, even in RFK's Inverted Pyramid, I def, I, there's just too much other stuff for me to catch up on, even though I would probably find that reassuring.

• 26:00Chris Ryan?

  The, the sensation that I'm basically chasing is like coming home after a long day of doing something that had nothing to do with television and it's like 5:30. And while I'm making dinner, I put on a show and that's the show that comes on, but I had no choice. I was like, I'm just putting on TBS or I'm putting on USA and that show comes on. I'm like, you know what, like out of order, I wind up watching these Marshall's episodes. But now, at any given moment of your life, between standing on grocery lines or making your dinner, or any hours that you're going to spend watching stuff, you could theoretically be watching a Canterbury Tale, or Dark Winds, or whatever. It's, it's

• 26:44Chris Ryan?

  kind of hard to negotiate with like, stuff that's just like, I, look, 18 million people watched an episode of, of Marshall's, they don't need my, my cosign signature. And I'll probably keep watching it because of my dedication to Casey Dutton. But it's, it's strange.

• 27:01Andy Greenwald?

  It's a really nice thing to just kind of relax into something. I, I don't even think we've talked about this, but you know what I started watching with the girls is Fire Up Jeopardy.

• 27:11Chris Ryan?

  Really?

• 27:11Andy Greenwald?

  Jeopardy is just, you could just, they're all streaming.

• 27:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Andy Greenwald?

  You could just watch it whenever you want without the commercials.

• 27:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, right.

• 27:17Andy Greenwald?

  And then you just watch Jeopardy.

• 27:19Chris Ryan?

  And they like it?

• 27:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Cause you know what's good? Jeopardy. Like it's completely the same, except sometimes like Claro will be an answer, you know? But other than that, it's very, very, very pleasant to make the machine do what it used to do.

• 27:33Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 27:34Andy Greenwald?

  And, and have those rhythms of like, well, this is a fine thing. This is a fine thing to do together.

• 27:39Chris Ryan?

  So like, I would just, I would, I guess like, if you're really desperate for more Yellowstone Sheridan stuff, it's interesting to watch someone kind of write what they think Sheridan sounds like. Spencer Huddner wrote and created this one.

• 27:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 27:55Chris Ryan?

  And the first two scripts are good and Gregory, Greg Utanis directed the first two episodes.

• 27:59Andy Greenwald?

  Great director.

• 28:00Chris Ryan?

  And they have some verve, but I just, you know, for as much as we knock Netflix for like the Netflix effect of the visual language that we are kind of all speaking now, man, CBS procedurals.

• 28:12Chris Ryan?

  Really, they they look diff.

• 28:14Andy Greenwald?

  Can I ask you, though, and maybe this is going to be useful for some of our listenership as well. I I think it's time to come to reckon with this, and I think it was clear for anyone who listened to our last show from Thursday, but I I'm willing to admit that I suffer from TDS.

• 28:30Chris Ryan?

  Taylor Derangement Syndrome?

• 28:31Andy Greenwald?

  Taylor Derangement Syndrome. And if anyone else is suffering from that, is it a healthier experience for them to watch a show that is just straightforward?

• 28:40Chris Ryan?

  You shouldn't watch this.

• 28:41Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, I, which cameras, I wasn't going to. This is all just Canterbury Tales, though. I've just added to my criteria.

• 28:47Chris Ryan?

  Although I don't think you'd be as triggered by this as.

• 28:49Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I'm saying, because maybe the issue isn't the dudes riding horses to the zone of death in 40 minutes and back again in time for supper. It's that in the middle of it, there isn't a large conversation about pronouns and ferrets.

• 29:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, there's not. There's they're really, they don't have any time for like

• 29:04Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 29:05Chris Ryan?

  discursive conversations in in Marshals.

• 29:07Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 29:08Chris Ryan?

  It's all like, a lot of, a lot of skeletons out there. Sometimes they should stay buried. That's right, brother. And then they go do their thing.

• 29:15Andy Greenwald?

  That just seems like good advice.

• 29:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, sure, sure. Um, one thing I will say about Logan Marshall Green and and the cast is that, you know, very convincing, wearing the tactical tactical vest. I I am curious. They obviously did a lot of like weapons training and stuff for this show. I don't know if they did weapons training while you're on a horse, because there is a scene in the second episode where he seems rather uncomfortable.

• 29:41Chris Ryan?

  And and then there's a lot of very far away shots of guys on horses.

• 29:46Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think you'd be comfortable on the horse without the tactical gear? Or do you think it's the horse?

• 29:50Chris Ryan?

  Maybe it was just lack of of like, kind of movement. Yeah, yeah.

• 29:54Andy Greenwald?

  I'm just trying to look out for my guy.

• 29:55Chris Ryan?

  Give me a show that you watched over the weekend.

• 29:57Andy Greenwald?

  You know, one of the things I love about contemporary television landscape is the ability to be surprised, not necessarily surprised by the quality or tenor of programming, because we've pretty much ticked all the boxes and there's nothing new to invent, more that we can still be like. Wait, what is this?

• 30:11Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:12Andy Greenwald?

  And it's on where? And that was my reaction when I heard that there was a sitcom that was already five or six episodes deep, starring Kevin Kline and Laura Linney, and it was airing on MGM Plus, which I have to admit, I thought was like, free V? And then it's not, it's what Epix used to be, and you have to pay for it.

• 30:31Chris Ryan?

  This doesn't even sound like a real conversation.

• 30:32Andy Greenwald?

  I know. And so the idea, like, and the show is about a titan of Broadway.

• 30:38Chris Ryan?

  Do they still do free V?

• 30:39Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know, I don't think so.

• 30:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:40Andy Greenwald?

  A titan of, see, don't.

• 30:43Chris Ryan?

  Jeff's not giving that away for free anymore.

• 30:45Andy Greenwald?

  We're keeping it all in.

• 30:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:48Andy Greenwald?

  But just like, the idea of people pitching a television show that is about a titan of Broadway being brought low and then returning to his rural hometown to save his local theater with the help of his family.

• 31:04Chris Ryan?

  Uh-huh.

• 31:04Andy Greenwald?

  I'm like, first of all, okay grandma, come back to your rest home, but also, that sounds like a great, great thing for pilot season on Amazon in 2013.

• 31:13Chris Ryan?

  Is it a period piece?

• 31:14Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 31:15Chris Ryan?

  It's a contemporary show.

• 31:17Andy Greenwald?

  It is a contemporary show.

• 31:18Chris Ryan?

  Oh.

• 31:19Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, it is a contemporary show, made by, uh, the director Michael Hoffman.

• 31:25Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:25Andy Greenwald?

  And the, uh, comedy writer, um, musical theater actor Bob Martin. And it stars, uh, Kevin Kline, as I said, and Laura Linney, and also a, uh, sparkling constellation of Broadway greats. And it's so bizarre to me that it exists. Like, you watch it, and I genuinely feel happy for people to do what they want. There's, I'm not trying to rag on this show. I think, I think it's kind of a small miracle that it exists.

• 31:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Andy Greenwald?

  And any show that's trying to make it about like, how we should support local theater, is clearly fine with me and how I see the world. I, I, I want to talk to you about Kevin Kline.

• 32:03Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 32:04Andy Greenwald?

  Kevin Kline doesn't need us to, uh, big up him.

• 32:07Chris Ryan?

  Still married to Phoebe Cates.

• 32:09Andy Greenwald?

  You think you gotta, you still working on your angles there?

• 32:11Chris Ryan?

  No, I was just asking if he was still married to Phoebe Cates.

• 32:14Andy Greenwald?

  A hundred percent he is.

• 32:15Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 32:16Andy Greenwald?

  And hap- happily, I might add.

• 32:19Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 32:21Andy Greenwald?

  It's just that like.

• 32:22Chris Ryan?

  Amazing if Kevin Kline showed up before Project Hail Mary was like, I am still married to Phoebe Gates, which some people might find as amazing as space travel. Enjoy Project Hail Mary.

• 32:35Andy Greenwald?

  The problem with movie theaters is we haven't given ideas big enough.

• 32:38Chris Ryan?

  I know.

• 32:39Andy Greenwald?

  Including the majesty of my relationship with Fast Times at Ridgemont High star Phoebe Gates. Kevin Kline, one of our great American actors of the stage and screen.

• 32:49Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 32:49Andy Greenwald?

  Recently watched one of my favorite Kevin Kline films, Dave with My Children. Absolutely hits, close to a perfect movie. Loved it. I have to say that as he's, as he's aged, he definitely, his approach to performance seems to have changed slightly. And we just watched, um, what's it called? Disclosure?

• 33:06Chris Ryan?

  The Corone? Was that Corone? Who directed that?

• 33:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 33:10Chris Ryan?

  That's weird. That happened.

• 33:12Andy Greenwald?

  Was it no disclaimer? The disclosure?

• 33:15Chris Ryan?

  Disclaimer, I think it was.

• 33:16Andy Greenwald?

  That was another show. It's like, this really exists. Um, and in that show, remember, he, he played a grieving British pensioner.

• 33:26Chris Ryan?

  I remember.

• 33:27Andy Greenwald?

  Endeavors to ruin Cape Lanchet's life. Yes. Oh, yes, we did.

• 33:32Chris Ryan?

  I know you did. Cause I think you were like, I'm, I'm kind of like committed to this.

• 33:35Andy Greenwald?

  I hope you did too, because otherwise it was a lonely walk.

• 33:38Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 33:39Andy Greenwald?

  And he was, what's the word for not subtle in that show?

• 33:42Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 33:43Andy Greenwald?

  And in this show, which seems to be created around him, he plays a, an extravagant, uh, aging lion of Broadway who likes a tipple named Richard Bean, who in the opening, uh, performs Lear with someone reading his lines to him in his ear. And then at the party afterwards, finds out that he has received bad reviews and he basically, uh, not assaults, but has a viral meltdown moment yelling at the New York Times theater critic. So this is finger on the pulse stuff. And I would say, um, there is broad as a barn door. And then there's whatever he is doing in this.

• 34:15Chris Ryan?

  In this, in American classic. Okay.

• 34:17Andy Greenwald?

  An American classic. And then it also takes me out slightly when he is forced to return home because his mother has died. His brother, John Tenney, a great working actor for many years is in it. He's really good. Calls him, is like, Richard, you have to come home. Our, our mother has died, but our father is still alive. And at this point, reader, I have to confess, I did Google Kevin Kline age. Kevin Kline is 78 years young.

• 34:39Chris Ryan?

  And Sam Elliott plays his dad.

• 34:42Andy Greenwald?

  It's fucking bad again. It is.

• 34:44Chris Ryan?

  Is it?

• 34:44Andy Greenwald?

  No, first of all, when they shot the first season, first few episodes of the show with Harris Yuland playing his dad in his nineties.

• 34:52Chris Ryan?

  Harris Yuland, yeah.

• 34:53Andy Greenwald?

  He passed away and they recast with Len Carreyu, legend of Broadway, at age, who's basically nine years older. It's the Sam Elliott corollary. And it's just kind of, I, I'm willing to accept.

• 35:04Chris Ryan?

  He can't get Kevin Kline's dad. Like, there's no man who's alive.

• 35:09Andy Greenwald?

  I know. And so these are the kind of thoughts where I'm like, maybe cast Kevin Kline as the dad.

• 35:15Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 35:15Andy Greenwald?

  Or, let's just give the whole thing kind of a think. I'm willing to accept, we're gonna talk about on Paradise, how there is a young boy on that show named Bean, who has aged, who has lived in a bunker for three years and has frozen at nine years old. And I feel like they should be studying him for that reason. But I'm willing to accept some versions of like, okay, well, you know, it's the magic of theater, or magic of the movies, that these things don't happen. But it does beggar belief a little bit, to be like, this nearly eighty year old man has a few more, has a few more acts in his one man show, including dealing with his troublesome parents.

• 35:52Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 35:52Andy Greenwald?

  And burying one at that age. But they've tried, they've tried to address it. Like, there's the young Laura Linney, who's married to John Tenny, who plays Kline's brother.

• 36:01Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so it's his sister in law?

• 36:02Andy Greenwald?

  The sister in law. And they have, they have a past at this local theater. And I wonder what Phoebe Cates thought about that. And there, the John Tenny and Laura Linney's daughter is like, I want to go to New York and be an actor, Uncle Richard. And like, you Google her and she's like thirty. So they did try to like.

• 36:18Chris Ryan?

  You're really fixated on, on people's ages right now. I wonder what that says.

• 36:22Andy Greenwald?

  I think it says that I'm fixated on our age, and how much longer we can continue to be the hip voice of young television.

• 36:30Chris Ryan?

  Mormon wives are right there for us.

• 36:31Andy Greenwald?

  Mormon wives are honestly Starfleet, the next generation academy. That's us. We're recruits. So this was a tough watch, but it was kind of a fascinating watch.

• 36:39Chris Ryan?

  So not fully thumbs down, but not of, like, not a passionate recommendation?

• 36:44Andy Greenwald?

  I would say it's not a passionate recommendation. But like, it's, it's fun that Len Carreyu and Steven Spinella and Aaron Feit and like, all these people are having a good time. I do, I do support people working and enjoying what they do. And the message of like, let's do, let's save small town theater is a good one.

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• 38:02Chris Ryan?

  Let's stay on this same streaming service.

• 38:06Andy Greenwald?

  You're gonna watch something on MGM Plus?

• 38:08Chris Ryan?

  No, actually, it's just broadly the Prime Video umbrella. Because I assume you didn't watch it on MGM's standalone app. You watched it on Amazon, right?

• 38:16Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm committed. I want to see the experience from the inside. So I downloaded the app, I signed up. And I'll tell you one thing, they've really updated the roaring MGM line.

• 38:26Chris Ryan?

  Do you ever open Prime Video?

• 38:28Andy Greenwald?

  Do I ever open it? Yeah, why?

• 38:30Chris Ryan?

  Because it's right there.

• 38:32Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I know.

• 38:33Chris Ryan?

  So you...

• 38:34Andy Greenwald?

  I was watching LA Confidential on it multiple times this weekend. Multiple times.

• 38:39Chris Ryan?

  I believe you. I believe you. Don't get nervous, it's gonna be fun.

• 38:43Andy Greenwald?

  It's about Los Angeles.

• 38:45Chris Ryan?

  It is. I watched something that was on Amazon, which is, you could probably watch American Classic on Amazon, because like, a lot of those are like, fed into the Prime Video umbrella system.

• 38:53Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think that's true.

• 38:54Chris Ryan?

  Okay, and I watched something called Jury Duty: Company Retreat, which is the second run around the block for the jury duty concept. Did you enjoy the first season?

• 39:05Andy Greenwald?

  I think that this is one of the ones where I might be wrong, but I did not.

• 39:08Chris Ryan?

  Okay, now, I thought the first season was really funny. And it brought us the beginning of the James Marsden sans.

• 39:16Andy Greenwald?

  Which is going great.

• 39:16Chris Ryan?

  Still living through the Bradshaw administration is the president of my heart.

• 39:23Chris Ryan?

  He was obviously fantastic in that. I've only watched the first two of the season, which got dropped in its entirety on Amazon. And it's really funny to watch a show for its second season. The first one, I was just like, how are they doing this? This is so kind of like strange to like be like a voyeur.

• 39:44Andy Greenwald?

  Explain the conceit.

• 39:45Chris Ryan?

  So it's about a sequestered jury. Where one of the jurors is being put in the center of like a social experiment slash TV show and all the other jurors.

• 39:57Andy Greenwald?

  That's why I tapped out.

• 39:58Chris Ryan?

  Are actors who are playing jury and it's supposed to basically be like, what, how is this person going to react to all these different crazy situations? And they found like the one guy in the world who had like a really good heart and a really good sense of humor about the whole project. And it was a really, I think it was a successful show.

• 40:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 40:16Chris Ryan?

  And very funny and touching in places. Watching Jury Duty season two. So the idea is basically a temp arrives at a hot sauce company. To work for the CEO and the HR department as like a, you know, assistant. And he finds out like, we're actually doing our company retreat. It's like a couple of days in Agoura Hills. And we're going out there and like, you'll be helping with that. And he's like, cool. Okay. And of course, as soon as he gets out there, it's like,

• 40:45Chris Ryan?

  it's just like everything that could go wrong and all the funny like, you know, a guy is drinking out of what he thinks is a complimentary water bottle. And it turns out to be a used flashlight that someone had left in his hotel room.

• 40:57Andy Greenwald?

  I see.

• 40:58Chris Ryan?

  That kind of thing.

• 40:59Andy Greenwald?

  So it's not really Pressburger and Emmerich level of.

• 41:02Chris Ryan?

  I feel like watching it, I am pretty highly aware of all the people in the show acting.

• 41:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 41:08Chris Ryan?

  You know what I mean? And.

• 41:10Andy Greenwald?

  Doing bits.

• 41:11Chris Ryan?

  And, and also creating, having predetermined like, hopefully this person will be the Pam to his gym or the, that kind of like constellation of office archetypes that they are trying to now. I could be wrong. Obviously, there could be lots of twists and turns that happen on this show. And who really knows with the character? Like, I think that there's a version of this show where it goes off the rails because the guy who's the protagonist, the unwitting protagonist, would be like, I don't fucking like this. You know, like, I imagine that wouldn't get aired, because it's not a heartwarming comedy.

• 41:47Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 41:47Chris Ryan?

  But I guess I was just a little bit aware of the puppet strings this time around, but I will probably keep checking it out to see. The episodes are pretty short. The whole season's up.

• 41:56Andy Greenwald?

  Can you watch it on MGM Plus, like reciprocity wise?

• 41:59Chris Ryan?

  You would know, man. You would know. You had to. Do you have it on your computer? Or is it only a Apple TV? Or did you get a separate Apple TV box just for MGM app? The MGM app?

• 42:09Andy Greenwald?

  I wanted to really focus. I took this seriously.

• 42:12Chris Ryan?

  Because Amazon owns MGM.

• 42:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 42:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and so that's why this has been a very MGM coded podcast, because Project Hail Mary is also, I believe, an MGM picture.

• 42:22Chris Ryan?

  The lion still roars.

• 42:23Andy Greenwald?

  I'm proud of that lion. Because I have to say, no disrespect, like, it is a legendary movie house. But I don't know if it's, it's, Star has lost its luster a little bit. So the fact that they have like MGM Plus.

• 42:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Do you have a favorite movie studio opening, like, it's the Paramount Mountain, or it's the 20th Century Fox reverie?

• 42:44Andy Greenwald?

  What about the Columbia lady? The, isn't that what that?

• 42:47Chris Ryan?

  What does she do?

• 42:48Andy Greenwald?

  Isn't she standing there? This Columbia Pictures.

• 42:50Chris Ryan?

  Oh, her, yeah.

• 42:51Andy Greenwald?

  The woman, and she's holding the flesh, she's holding the fleshlight.

• 42:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Chris Ryan?

  Statue, isn't like the Statue of Liberty lady?

• 42:58Andy Greenwald?

  But she's not.

• 42:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but she looks like it.

• 43:00Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I mean, first of all, not all women, you know, standing there.

• 43:03Chris Ryan?

  The Greek god of story? Like, what, who is that?

• 43:05Andy Greenwald?

  I wish I had a answer for you. I like that one.

• 43:08Chris Ryan?

  I like, I like old school Warner Brothers.

• 43:11Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know what I really like? I like when you get that little scratchy Janus films.

• 43:15Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:15Andy Greenwald?

  Because you're like, oh, damn, this is gonna be the real.

• 43:18Chris Ryan?

  Pressburger, about to cook up some shit.

• 43:21Andy Greenwald?

  We're going to the mean streets of Oslo today.

• 43:24Chris Ryan?

  Canterbury? Okay, so Jury Duty, and then we have two things. Well, we have one thing that we watched, we actually did watch a little bit, or I watched a bunch of, and you watched some of Saturday Night Live UK, or is there another one?

• 43:37Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I would just say that I know that this isn't, this probably isn't to your, your liking, although you did say you've been tipling a little bit more of the noble grape recently.

• 43:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but we're getting out of red wine season. It's a little hot, you know?

• 43:47Andy Greenwald?

  It's true. A little foggy today, though. You could have kicked the day off a little. Little sort of a chewy gamay.

• 43:53Chris Ryan?

  There's a character on Marshall's when like, it's really funny. Actually, I don't know. It's obviously probably corporate sponsorship, but Logan Marshall Green's character on Marshall's drinks Blue Moon.

• 44:03Andy Greenwald?

  Come on. Wait, he puts on, why didn't we lead with this? So you're telling me that a marshal who, who rides horseback with tactical gear into the zone of death, sips a little wheat beer with a lemon floating in it?

• 44:17Chris Ryan?

  There's another character on the show, a lady who, uh, when they go to the like cowboy bar and there's always like a surprise performance from a relatively up and coming country star.

• 44:26Andy Greenwald?

  Amazing.

• 44:26Chris Ryan?

  She drinks red wine.

• 44:28Andy Greenwald?

  At the country bar?

• 44:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:29Andy Greenwald?

  Is it, but it has to be branded, right? Or is that just telling us something about her?

• 44:32Chris Ryan?

  No, she's just like, she's, it's, it's like her usual, cause the bartender is always like, tough day?

• 44:38Andy Greenwald?

  Is he in here the bottle?

• 44:39Chris Ryan?

  No, like a glass.

• 44:40Andy Greenwald?

  It'd be really amazing that if in this honky tonk bar, um, put a, put like a perfect redol stem glass in front and then like had the little thing that like just decants the right amount without spoiling the oxidase, oxidizing the wines. It's like squirt.

• 44:52Chris Ryan?

  Oh my God. I would literally give my entire life savings if you could be a day player on Marshall's.

• 44:57Andy Greenwald?

  Be like, this is, this is quaffable.

• 44:59Chris Ryan?

  Marshall's Samiye?

• 45:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Oh, it's all, it's all plonk, unfortunately.

• 45:04Chris Ryan?

  Speaking of, of wine.

• 45:06Andy Greenwald?

  Speaking of wine, uh, one of my favorite shows from a few years ago, we touched on it a few weeks ago, that it was back, Drops of God, um, finished its second season on Apple and I really, really enjoyed the show.

• 45:18Chris Ryan?

  Good.

• 45:18Andy Greenwald?

  And I really thought it was a fascinating example. Look, I, if you aren't into the show from the logline, that it is a, uh, kind of lovely, kind of gauzy international production that is equal parts Japanese, French and English. And very, very deep into these vineyards, uh, about like, uh, varietals and the importance of, of, and the artistry and the humanity of wine, you might be out on it. But if you do, if you're one of those people who listens to our show and is interested when we talk about like the, the scaffolding behind the shows that we like, I really thought that they made a lot of smart choices on how to turn a show that was, um, that was very concept driven.

• 46:01Andy Greenwald?

  First season is a young woman inherits this legacy from her father, who is the most prestigious and feared wine expert in the world. And basically he has left her as his legacy, a competition to earn his cellar and his mantle. And she must compete against her father, her late father's protege, who's a Japanese man, who turns out, spoiler alert, is her half brother.

• 46:21Chris Ryan?

  It's always the way.

• 46:22Andy Greenwald?

  And that's how we met. And your father was the most discerning film critic in Philadelphia. And he put us on this podcast together. Rather than make it another competition, they made the season half kind of a chase to find a missing wine. And then a much more like character driven story about the depths that we will go to find out the truth about our past.

• 46:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:45Andy Greenwald?

  Or whatever. And it was really well done. And it did, it set the show up in a way that would allow it to run future seasons.

• 46:53Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Did they go to the cellar? Did they finally, did somebody win?

• 46:56Andy Greenwald?

  In the first season, they did.

• 46:57Chris Ryan?

  Oh, who won?

• 46:58Andy Greenwald?

  You want me to?

• 47:00Chris Ryan?

  I, no, you don't spoil it for the listeners. For me, you can spoil it after we're done recording.

• 47:04Andy Greenwald?

  I'll spoil it.

• 47:04Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 47:05Andy Greenwald?

  But the, but the second season, it's an interesting thing. If you get a chance to make a second season, do you go super conservative and run the first season back? Because honestly, in this climate, it's a miracle that you got two. Maybe you won't get three. Or do you do the work that might not be alienating, but might, you might see some of the seams as you transition the show from a one season thing into potentially a multi-season thing.

• 47:27Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 47:27Andy Greenwald?

  And it was pretty unsentimental about that in a way that I appreciated. It was very entertaining.

• 47:31Chris Ryan?

  Before we get into paradise, let's talk briefly about Saturday Night Live UK. How aware of this project were you?

• 47:36Andy Greenwald?

  I was very aware.

• 47:38Chris Ryan?

  Cause it was probably brewing when the last time you were over there was, right?

• 47:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and no one was talking about it.

• 47:43Chris Ryan?

  In a nice way?

• 47:44Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm just kidding. I, it wasn't like, you know, we, we weren't at the Devonshire being like, you know, another round of the, of the black stuff. And also have you heard that Lorne is bringing his trademark?

• 47:55Chris Ryan?

  It's interesting to see it be franchised. So Saturday Live, the first episode, their, their premiere episode aired Saturday night in London in England. And then was available on Peacock, I think at six Pacific, nine Eastern last night. Tina Fey was the host.

• 48:11Andy Greenwald?

  American.

• 48:12Chris Ryan?

  And Wet Leg was the musical guest. And I thought they were real good.

• 48:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 48:16Chris Ryan?

  It had some of like the usual kind of Saturday Night Live cameos, although here are the cameos that happened during Tina Fey's monologue. And I think are indicative of the spirit of the show. Nicola Coughlin from Dairy Girls in Bridgerton.

• 48:28Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 48:29Chris Ryan?

  And Michael Sarah. And Michael Sarah was like, why are you here? And he was like, I'm, it's part of the Commonwealth, you know, like.

• 48:36Andy Greenwald?

  And Graham Norton.

• 48:38Chris Ryan?

  And Graham Norton. So what does that tell you? It tells you that like, it's a little offbeat, it's very British, and it's very United Kingdom. And there was a lot of jokes about like, why is Tina Fey hosting this? And she made a, with an F word, she said, because none of you fuckers would do it.

• 48:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 48:57Chris Ryan?

  Speaking to, I think, maybe some of the cynicism or apprehension that the, the larger, you know, UK comedy community might have had about the series. That being said, I follow a bunch of primarily Irish comedians, like, and they were all pretty like, it was really funny because some of them were like, I auditioned and didn't get it. But they were all like, that was pretty good. And I gotta say, it had a quality that I kind of missed from SNL, which is a lack of, it wasn't as self-conscious as I feel like SNL is now, where a lot of the time you feel like they're trying to get to a viral moment, or trying to get

• 49:36Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 49:37Chris Ryan?

  characters, you know, actors to break so that they can have like this hilarious experience. And even watching Weekend Update with two people that I had no familiarity with.

• 49:46Andy Greenwald?

  They were good.

• 49:47Chris Ryan?

  And we're doing all Keir Starmer jokes and it was much more intellectually rigorous, I think, maybe.

• 49:55Andy Greenwald?

  I felt smug that I got the David Walliams joke.

• 49:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Andy Greenwald?

  You know, I was there long enough to get that.

• 50:00Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 50:00Andy Greenwald?

  I thought they were, who's the guy, it's Patty Young, is that the guy who does the, who had the mustache?

• 50:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:05Andy Greenwald?

  Great delivery. I thought it was really interesting to see the way the, the structure of SNL is so entrenched, the way that it was just actually quite easily transportable. It made you think, why did it take 50 years to even try it?

• 50:22Chris Ryan?

  Seriously.

• 50:23Andy Greenwald?

  The, from the not very good but fine political cold open, to the opening credits of people I have mostly never seen before, having a bit of a laugh with the pedicabs in central London, you know, or bringing too many drinks back at the pub, to the, to the band, to the cut, to the, no commercials this time, but to a fake commercial, and then Weekend Update, like, it's a very, very familiar and easy format. And just the nature of it made me realize you don't need Tina Fey to justify it, because the rhythms were so familiar that we knew very clearly what they were doing.

• 50:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:00Andy Greenwald?

  It also seems like not that big of an ask, because The UK comedy scene is amazing and distinct and doesn't need this. At the same time, the UK comedy scene is like the UK theater scene or the UK TV scene, slightly smaller than it is here, quite incestuous. Everybody knows each other. Everybody's putting on a, "Come see me at Soho Theatre, come see me at the Edinburgh Fringe" or whatever. An opportunity to be on TV once a week and kind of drive conversation, drive culture, or potentially go viral, just makes too much sense.

• 51:30Chris Ryan?

  The fact that it's not, obviously for Americans, it's, I imagine, not going to be on linear television.

• 51:36Andy Greenwald?

  No, but I think there was, I saw some talk yesterday when I was first looking for it, that it wasn't available within the window, some people thought. Like you said, it came on later.

• 51:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:44Andy Greenwald?

  And that there was clearly a lot of interest.

• 51:47Chris Ryan?

  Well, I was kind of like, this could just go on. Obviously, I don't think they want to put it up against a Saturday Night Live broadcast.

• 51:53Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 51:55Chris Ryan?

  But I was sort of surprised that it wasn't up on Saturday night at some point, because I don't think there was a new Saturday Night Live this week.

• 52:02Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 52:04Chris Ryan?

  It just would have like been nice to have been able to watch it at some point before Sunday night.

• 52:07Andy Greenwald?

  The other thing is, American Saturday Night Live is famously incredibly expensive.

• 52:15Andy Greenwald?

  And weirdly, has almost now justifies its insane price tag, because it is also, I believe this is still true, the highest rated show on linear NBC at this point.

• 52:24Chris Ryan?

  I think so.

• 52:24Andy Greenwald?

  Which is insane, considering when it airs. But the idea of making another version of Saturday Night Live that can fuel the larger NBC brand and provide it with viral opportunities, potential stars, just something people are clicking on, on Peacock or on the in-house YouTube channels, for the relatively cheap price of a lot of relatively unknowns, it seems like a no-brainer.

• 52:50Chris Ryan?

  My last observation about this, I liked the David Attenborough's Last Dinner sketch and the Hamlet or the Shakespeare sketch.

• 52:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 53:00Chris Ryan?

  But my last very American observation is, this was, I'm not like a huge Game of Thrones person about Saturday Night Live, like, I don't really know.

• 53:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 53:10Chris Ryan?

  But it did make me wonder whether Tina Fey is gonna replace Lauren. To see her be the kind of flagship ambassador.

• 53:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 53:19Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and I was like, she's still really funny. I mean, obviously she's still really funny, but like also watching her play like she seemed to have like a feel for how a show should work. And I wonder whether or not she worked with them at all in terms of structuring it or in terms of.

• 53:34Andy Greenwald?

  I would guess.

• 53:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:36Andy Greenwald?

  But I, I think the impediment to Tina taking over is why would she want to do that? Why would she want to be the person after the person? Why would she want to?

• 53:44Chris Ryan?

  She might be like, she might, she might be better for.

• 53:47Andy Greenwald?

  For sure, but also I, I don't know her personally, but she seems like she has a pretty good life doing what she wants.

• 53:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I don't know, man. I mean, I, I agree with you, but like.

• 53:56Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, she's not married to Phoebe Cates.

• 53:57Chris Ryan?

  Like, but none of these people are ever like, I'm good. I'm done, you know, like, yeah, that's a really hard life.

• 54:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 54:03Chris Ryan?

  I think possibly one of the things that she could institute is a different like kind of framework for how to make the show. I know that it's basically.

• 54:10Andy Greenwald?

  Stay late.

• 54:11Chris Ryan?

  It's a ship that runs itself. I mean, I, it's, it's baked into the premise that it's going to be late nights. But I wonder whether or not there are certain elements of it. That's like a chaos factory because of the way Lorne.

• 54:22Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 54:22Chris Ryan?

  Is always on it. I don't, I have no idea.

• 54:24Andy Greenwald?

  To, to, to investigate the note behind the note, how would you run the ringer differently? If you stepped in, like, would you change the?

• 54:30Chris Ryan?

  From Bill?

• 54:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, would you change like the, the hours? Would you change catering?

• 54:36Chris Ryan?

  I would definitely change the catering.

• 54:37Andy Greenwald?

  Like you would get some.

• 54:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:38Andy Greenwald?

  Cause I'm very hungry. I, I will say about SNL UK that I, did you know anyone? Do you recognize anyone in the cast?

• 54:44Chris Ryan?

  I didn't.

• 54:45Andy Greenwald?

  Hamid Anamashan, who is someone I've been watching for a minute. He's really funny.

• 54:49Chris Ryan?

  Look at you.

• 54:49Andy Greenwald?

  To black ops. But that was also cool where like, I don't, genuinely, I mean, this is a compliment. Like there's a democratization of culture there that I don't fully understand. Whereas here, country's so big, um, the money-making opportunities are so vastly disparate that we would be like, why is that guy on TV when I saw that guy in the movies? Or why is that movie star doing a play now if he's not trying to?

• 55:12Chris Ryan?

  Why does comedian have a podcast, but it's not very funny?

• 55:15Andy Greenwald?

  Well, 100% that. There, like, the pathways from doing a, you know, a day player role on a TV show, like Papa Essidu being on, who's one of the best British actors of his generation, and is gonna be Snape in Harry Potter, he did a one-episode turn on Joe Barton's show, Black Doves, because he'd been in Joe's other show, and then he's also on stage, and he very well could start a podcast or show up on SNL UK too, because you just work. So I kind of think that might speak well, both for the cast and future cast of the show, but also, Michael Sarah aside, people are around. People are around and will be willing to show up on the show in a different way.

• 55:55Chris Ryan?

  Also, a lot of stuff is shooting in London.

• 55:58Andy Greenwald?

  Most things are now shooting in London.

• 55:59Chris Ryan?

  And so people will be in the mix.

• 56:01Andy Greenwald?

  Like, we could go full circle. Like, Ghazi, that's what my English coworkers were calling Ryan Gosling when they would see him, like, on the heath, when he was moved there for a year to film Starfighter. Ghazi might drop in.

• 56:12Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about Paradise before we get out of here.

• 56:14Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 56:15Chris Ryan?

  Spoilers for last night's episode of The Final Countdown is the name of the episode.

• 56:19Andy Greenwald?

  Spoiler, they play a slowcore version of Europe's The Final Countdown.

• 56:23Chris Ryan?

  The Final Countdown. So spoilers for the episode going forward, because it's very difficult to talk about it without talking about what happens in it. We have certainly entered an interesting zone with this show that everybody who I've recommended to, recommended it to, is like, "Oh my god, they killed that character?" And now we apparently are hitting the "no one ever really dies" part of Paradise, where if you were wondering why James Marsden was so extensively featured in a continued flashback role in season two, there is now a world where Cal's just in a different reality, I think is probably what's being suggested by the end of the episode.

• 57:02Andy Greenwald?

  Talk me through that.

• 57:03Chris Ryan?

  Well, it seems that Link, the character played by Thomas Doherty that we like very much, who had that lovely tryst with Shane Lee Woodley at Graceland, and she gave birth to his daughter?

• 57:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 57:17Chris Ryan?

  It seems that he has come to the bunker in Colorado with his militia to kill Alex.

• 57:26Andy Greenwald?

  Whatever Alex, whoever or whatever Alex maybe.

• 57:28Chris Ryan?

  It seems more like a what. And at the end of his conversation with Sinatra, which has been this negotiation about, like, "We want one of your nuclear reactors," and blah, blah, and...

• 57:39Chris Ryan?

  He is referred to as Dylan, which is the name of Samantha's late son. Right? At the end of the episode, she goes into a room. We don't see what she's looking at. She seems to need to put on some kind of lab coat. I don't know if it's to protect from radiation or whatever. And she says, did she say it worked, Alex?

• 57:59Andy Greenwald?

  No, she just says, hi, Alex.

• 58:00Chris Ryan?

  Hi, Alex. Oh, she tells her husband.

• 58:03Andy Greenwald?

  Everything worked.

• 58:03Chris Ryan?

  Everything worked. So my guess is that Samantha, while also creating a safe haven for society in the Colorado bunker, has also been working on a multiple reality time.

• 58:19Andy Greenwald?

  So she creates, so basically the idea that you're, that you're suggesting here is that she created a safe haven for the remnants of society, but potentially created another pocket safety that kept everyone alive or restarted people or?

• 58:35Chris Ryan?

  Or that people are out there

• 58:39Chris Ryan?

  that don't know that they're like, you know what I mean? That are, are, are a part of some other strain of reality or a strain of time that are now, maybe they were brought forward by the

• 58:49Andy Greenwald?

  And link might be a link between these worlds.

• 58:53Chris Ryan?

  Now you're picking up on it. So did you not feel that way when you saw the end of the episode?

• 58:57Andy Greenwald?

  I gotta be honest with you. I don't, I really like the show.

• 59:01Chris Ryan?

  But you don't care.

• 59:02Andy Greenwald?

  I don't care.

• 59:02Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 59:03Andy Greenwald?

  But I don't mean that in a way that's to be dismissive. I genuinely am like, okay.

• 59:07Chris Ryan?

  Let me know next week.

• 59:08Andy Greenwald?

  Can't wait.

• 59:09Chris Ryan?

  I only say this because this episode also featured what it looks like the death of Jane after her standalone episode. And

• 59:19Chris Ryan?

  you know, I, I think that for as exciting as those character deaths can be, they're, they may or may not have any consequence.

• 59:26Andy Greenwald?

  Well, they also are like, the interesting. The interesting thing about the show is it is very self-aware because Dan Fogelman with This Is Us, really, really a pioneer in the field of doesn't matter if characters are dead, they have a lot of stories still to explore in flashbacks. Sure. And so he carried that forward into the show. The idea that he is iterating on that idea, being like they may be playing future alternate versions of themselves too, so we're going to keep them in the call sheet. I find that fascinating. I find that interesting. I didn't go as far as you did, but that does make sense because as we were saying last week when we talked about the show, there are these, you know, Xavier's having these little flash forward dream things as if there is some sort of time travel element.

• 1:00:09Andy Greenwald?

  It is absolutely, this is not, this wasn't subtle, like I didn't, this wasn't buried in the mix that this is clearly her son. Is this a version of her son that she has yet to meet or something that proves the success of her program? We don't know. Right. But this brings me to my observation, which is everything that you're saying and that this was a, this is, this is the last card turn of the show's big plan. Oh, I don't know about that. No, no, but I'm saying if it is, if that's where we're headed in season three. Time travel, multiple realities. That would track with the fact that all of the reporting and the announcing of the renewal of the show for its third season was that this was always intended to be and

• 1:00:53Andy Greenwald?

  was pitched and conceived as a three-season show. That would suggest that, you know, that we're not, that it's revealing this big card turn right on schedule for wherever the ultimate end game of the show is. Paradise being maybe the afterlife, paradise also being the third book in Dante's trilogy. I can always count on you. You know, so we're seeing that, that, that is a framing that seems to be consistent with what the show has always intended to be, apparently. I would say though, in my viewing experience of this season, and especially the last two to three episodes post Shailene Woodley, it is not carrying itself like a three-season show.

• 1:01:34Andy Greenwald?

  If it is a three season show, and I say this especially because Paradise is so, so, so fast and so like move fast, break things and worry about it later in a way that I find admirable and unlike a lot of the plodding prestige stuff that we generally cover. Everything that you put on screen has to be vitally important, sure, in terms of the larger end game and thus maybe why we have the Shailene Woodley Messiah baby looming, even though Xavier just left that baby a couple of episodes ago.

• 1:02:02Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:02:03Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, I buy all that, but I also feel just as a viewer, everything you put on screen then ought to be really, really compelling, not just important for the plot. And by that metric, I think the last few episodes have kind of failed, not just because I don't really care about Jane's I'm a killer backstory, but also President Cal's adventures, President Cal's son's misadventures in the underworld are so boring and so uncharismatic and compelling.

• 1:02:29Chris Ryan?

  That part of like the people who are in Paradise prison, the bunker prison and all, like there are several teenagers that I'm like, I know you're somebody's child and you seem to be working with Xavier's former partner.

• 1:02:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:02:45Chris Ryan?

  And the guy who built this whole thing.

• 1:02:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:02:48Chris Ryan?

  Let me know when you guys get, get to where you're going, you know.

• 1:02:51Andy Greenwald?

  You are like the, I'm sorry that happened or I'm happy for you. I ain't really know that.

• 1:02:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's, it's just like when, when there are a lot of, there are several, I'm sure there are Paradise podcasts that are granular and dedicated to the every movement. When it comes to the teens, I'm out. I'm just like, I'm like, I'm like, look.

• 1:03:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, with like Sinatra's daughter is a hacker who can provide wristband access to anyone, anywhere.

• 1:03:14Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 1:03:15Andy Greenwald?

  At any festival.

• 1:03:16Chris Ryan?

  I forgot Sinatra's daughter is one of the outsiders.

• 1:03:17Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, there's just a lot of like, it's funny to watch all these strands of like, we're going to make an incredibly compelling serialized genre show, but also that, that part that I'm not necessarily. Against, but that that sort of lizard brain broadcast part of the brain trust of the show that is like if we make Julian Nicholson this Machiavellian character who seems to be pulling all the strings, we also very, very much have to have her say early in an episode. What does she say? At the at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm not a monster.

• 1:03:46Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:03:46Andy Greenwald?

  And then also, we see how her intimate sex life with her husband has fallen by the wayside since she got shot in the clavicle and ended the world.

• 1:03:54Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:03:56Andy Greenwald?

  Shout out to that guy. That's just like, that's a working actor's paycheck. He sort of, he sort of sits on his couch, I think.

• 1:04:02Chris Ryan?

  Because I don't really understand, like, if you're not, does everybody in the bunker have to have like a job that keeps society moving?

• 1:04:11Andy Greenwald?

  Ah, man, he's a plus one. He's a plus one.

• 1:04:14Chris Ryan?

  But do you think he's like, maybe I'll get back into my real estate career? Like, do you sell properties in?

• 1:04:19Andy Greenwald?

  Real estate is limited. I feel like that would be.

• 1:04:21Chris Ryan?

  It's limited, but would you try to like, keep some semblance?

• 1:04:24Andy Greenwald?

  You'd be like, there's a whole nother level here. It's an emerging neighborhood. It is near a prison technically, and it is near a power plant.

• 1:04:31Chris Ryan?

  And it gets no fake light.

• 1:04:32Andy Greenwald?

  And it gets no fake light, but you know.

• 1:04:34Chris Ryan?

  It sounds like my first New York apartment.

• 1:04:37Andy Greenwald?

  I think, I feel like there ought to be, see, this is the problem with a show like this. There's actually a lot more stuff they could be doing, but then it would be a lesser, different show. But I do think that if you, if you got into the bunker as a plus one, which by the way, we've all discussed, I would be dead day one, but if I did somehow manage to black my way into like plus one, I feel like it would be incumbent on me to then become a surgeon, you know, or like learn something useful.

• 1:05:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I would try to teach, like, teach English at the high school or whatever.

• 1:05:06Andy Greenwald?

  You're trying.

• 1:05:07Chris Ryan?

  That'd be cool.

• 1:05:08Andy Greenwald?

  Cormac McCarthy died that day, but also his books.

• 1:05:16Chris Ryan?

  The road is very useful in this circumstance, yeah.

• 1:05:18Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think, that's why the librarian was an important job in first, in the first season. Do you think they have all the streaming services down there just frozen at the moment?

• 1:05:27Chris Ryan?

  They only have MGM Plus.

• 1:05:28Andy Greenwald?

  Well, as a long time subscriber, I can really help. I could help people navigate the MGM Plus UX.

• 1:05:35Chris Ryan?

  Uh, so two more episodes of this season, yeah.

• 1:05:38Andy Greenwald?

  It's just like, they're doing a fascinating-

• 1:05:41Chris Ryan?

  Two more or one more?

• 1:05:42Andy Greenwald?

  I think one more.

• 1:05:42Chris Ryan?

  Oh, one more, yeah.

• 1:05:43Andy Greenwald?

  A fascinating and sometimes workman like job of like, well, we gotta keep these plates spinning. And sometimes plate spinning is like Xavier spent three plus years and one and a half, one and a half seasons trying to find his wife. And then he has her for 24 hours and he's like, yes, by all means, go have a one-on-one heart-to-heart talk with the man who tried to explode me with a bomb last episode.

• 1:06:03Chris Ryan?

  That's right. Gary.

• 1:06:05Andy Greenwald?

  And again, it's just like, that is the weird beat that maybe speaks to what you were saying you kind of like in Marshals. And I, I wonder what people's appetite is for it. And what I mean is, like Cameron Britton, an actor we like, playing Gary the mailman, a character who really I feel like has reached the end of his road in terms of like-

• 1:06:22Chris Ryan?

  But they don't kill him at the end.

• 1:06:24Andy Greenwald?

  They don't kill him, but also some part of their lizard broadcast brain is like, we need a redemption arc for Gary. We need to hug him.

• 1:06:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:32Andy Greenwald?

  I could have moved on frankly. Like, it's okay.

• 1:06:35Chris Ryan?

  You wanted Gary dead.

• 1:06:37Andy Greenwald?

  No, we don't. I would have been like, that's, that's cool. And then she's like, I must go get my son-

• 1:06:41Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:06:42Andy Greenwald?

  My bunker son Bean, whose growth has been stunted. You know, you know, the one thing though, I will give it, uh, oh wait, I have two questions before we, before we wrap up here. One, not even a question, just really more of a comment. I really like the thing where, where Terry's like, how are my children? How are our children? And, and she's like, it's a two-part answer. Just like, well, he sort of is complicated about she's dating someone. And then he's just, she's like, oh, you're saying he's white? About their kid's boyfriend? I thought that was funny.

• 1:07:10Chris Ryan?

  Wait, where's the baby?

• 1:07:11Andy Greenwald?

  The baby, he left the baby with the people-

• 1:07:13Chris Ryan?

  Oh, the train people.

• 1:07:14Andy Greenwald?

  With the, with the, the married couple, the women who read to the baby and they're-

• 1:07:19Chris Ryan?

  But they're gonna get on the train and go to Colorado.

• 1:07:20Andy Greenwald?

  They have to get the baby. He was, he was like, how do you feel about babies?

• 1:07:23Chris Ryan?

  Oh, right, right, right, right.

• 1:07:25Andy Greenwald?

  How do they get to turn the train? They're gonna lay the track to get the train to the baby?

• 1:07:29Chris Ryan?

  What was your other question that was more of a comment?

• 1:07:30Andy Greenwald?

  You don't wanna focus on train travel?

• 1:07:33Andy Greenwald?

  So it makes me think about how-

• 1:07:34Chris Ryan?

  Guess what, brother? We're all gonna get focused on train travel pretty soon.

• 1:07:38Andy Greenwald?

  It's probably the only thing that's working. One of my favorite low-key details about our beloved Lonesome Dove is that after it came out and won the Pulitzer Prize and was a huge sensation, Larry McMurtry admitted that he had forgotten about trains.

• 1:07:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Andy Greenwald?

  There probably would have been a lot of train talk in that book.

• 1:07:53Chris Ryan?

  Probably.

• 1:07:54Andy Greenwald?

  But, um, no, the other question was just to your altered reality thing. I think that we, as a storytelling people, need to come up with something other than nosebleeds to signal supernatural or metaphysical shenanigans.

• 1:08:09Chris Ryan?

  Like scanning? Remember, did you see scanners?

• 1:08:11Andy Greenwald?

  The heads explode? Well, that would limit Julian Nicholson's participation in the current reality.

• 1:08:16Chris Ryan?

  Uh, it does make me wonder, we've seen so far Xavier has nosebleeds.

• 1:08:22Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:08:23Chris Ryan?

  Link has nosebleeds.

• 1:08:24Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:26Chris Ryan?

  Did Jane ever have a nosebleed?

• 1:08:28Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, Jane's covered in blood all the time.

• 1:08:29Chris Ryan?

  But somebody was texting back in time during the Jane episode, somebody's like texting the Best Buy guy, you gotta kill this baby, right?

• 1:08:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, it wasn't text, I think it was AOL instant messages.

• 1:08:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Amy.

• 1:08:42Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, excuse me. Sorry.

• 1:08:44Chris Ryan?

  I think we did a great job today. We covered a bunch of shows.

• 1:08:47Andy Greenwald?

  Nosebleed.

• 1:08:47Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and we're gonna go back in time and do it all over again on Thursday, honestly. We do the pit.

• 1:08:53Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:54Chris Ryan?

  Something else, maybe, and-

• 1:08:55Andy Greenwald?

  Top Chef?

• 1:08:56Chris Ryan?

  Top Chef, that's right. Got anything else?

• 1:08:59Andy Greenwald?

  No, I feel like, I feel like, I feel like you're parking the car.

• 1:09:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I'm parking the car. Thank you to Kaia. Talk to you guys on Thursday.

• 1:09:05Andy Greenwald?

  I can't wait.