Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 116: Robot Grandma

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 116: Robot Grandma. Georgia covered serial killer Jesse Pomeroy and Karen discussed murderer Issei Sagawa. Tune in for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode! Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:32Georgia Hardstark?

  For this week's Rewind, we're skipping episode 115 and jumping straight into 116. Four more contributors were part of the network at the time these episodes originally aired, and we're choosing not to platform them in any way moving forward. Thank you for understanding.

• 2:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello. And welcome. To Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

• 2:08Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the show where we look back on our old episodes from 2018 with all new insights and case updates and SEO search terms.

• 2:16Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode originally came out on April 12, 2018.

• 2:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So let's listen to the intro of episode 116.

• 2:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Are we doing it?

• 2:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Enough.

• 2:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we go.

• 2:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Ready? Okay.

• 2:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Were you a cheerleader?

• 2:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Do I fucking look like I was a cheerleader? Were you?

• 2:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 2:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. And looking back, I shouldn't have been. But if you start anything, ready, okay is a great way to start. Ready, okay.

• 2:54Georgia Hardstark?

  This is my favorite murder, the podcast.

• 2:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Do your... Hey cheerleaders.

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey cheerleaders and cheer don'ts.

• 3:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And cheer... Get your herkies on. It's time for your favorite true crime cheerleading podcast, My Favorite Murder.

• 3:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It's time for the first 45 minutes of your first true crime podcast.

• 3:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Where there's no true crime, a lot of personal issues. That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 3:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 3:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's Stephen Ray Morris.

• 3:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Hardstark Kilgariff, we're calling him now.

• 3:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Stephen Hardstark Kilgariff.

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we've changed his name. Oh, Stephen, we've legally changed your name.

• 3:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Stephen. Cool. Stephen, we also enrolled you in a Montessori kindergarten, just so we could get the experience of being hyphenate parents.

• 3:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 3:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I wash my feet?

• 3:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Did you see someone today on Twitter was like, Georgia, I found this at a library and you weren't wrong. And it's called, it's like a children's book called, like, Can I Wash My Feet a Montessori?

• 3:49Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 3:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Or some fucking weird, like, next level.

• 3:52Karen Kilgariff?

  By Georgia Hardstark.

• 3:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I quickly put it out, just to prove you wrong. And it worked.

• 3:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You self-published, which is awesome. Then you planted it in a library.

• 4:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I was like, this murder, someone's gonna look in here, random murderino with a Twitter account.

• 4:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Love it.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I think, as the kids say, this podcast has blazered itself.

• 4:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I think this podcast has ripped the back out of its own blazer.

• 4:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. They're cheap Mervyn's blazers. It needs to calm down.

• 4:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I just had a flash.

• 4:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Of shopping Mervyn's. So anybody that's not from, I think it's California only.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. I'm sure there's like equivalents at someplace.

• 4:29Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll hear about it. If Mervyn's was in your town, we'd like to know. But we, Pedal and I had a Mervyn's, which is one of the only, like, larger stores in my town.

• 4:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like a mini department store.

• 4:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 4:39Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like a mini cheap department store.

• 4:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It was almost like the original Target, but it didn't have cool things to buy. It just had like...

• 4:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Just department store stuff, though. Like a JCPenney.

• 4:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly. But almost like lower rent than JCPenney. Like, JCPenney was for the rich kids. We were over at Mervyn's. And that's where you bought, that's where everybody in my school and town bought their first bra.

• 4:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I was gonna say, I stole my first bra from Mervyn's.

• 5:03Karen Kilgariff?

  We were just trying to pass the fucking time.

• 5:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude, the most boring thing in the world was going shopping with your mom.

• 5:08Karen Kilgariff?

  At Mervyn's.

• 5:09Georgia Hardstark?

  At Mervyn's.

• 5:10Karen Kilgariff?

  At Mervyn's today.

• 5:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I learned real quick that my mom would be like, come shopping with me, I'll buy you a lipstick or whatever. She'll buy me a little trinket, which is great. And I'd be like, okay. But then I didn't realize that meant four and a half hours of my mom in the fucking dressing room.

• 5:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 5:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, four and a half literal hours.

• 5:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Of her trying stuff on.

• 5:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Of her trying shit on. And a fucking MAC lipstick is not worth it.

• 5:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So she would get that out of you when you were like, more of a teen?

• 5:37Georgia Hardstark?

  A teen. I think the last time it happened was when I was 16 and had a fucking nervous breakdown on the floor of the fucking changing room of, like, the beige changing room at, like, fucking Bloomy, Blooming's. What was it called? Blooming?

• 5:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, Bloomingdale's.

• 5:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Bloomingdale's.

• 5:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Can't... Oh, God, I'm sweating. I'm now sweating.

• 5:55Karen Kilgariff?

  What's funny is my, with my mom, it was the inverse, where she would be like, you need a new blank for school or whatever. So we go to Clothes Time, which was actually down the strip mall from Mervyn's.

• 6:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Where my mom worked. Clothes Time.

• 6:07Karen Kilgariff?

  No, really?

• 6:07Georgia Hardstark?

  She worked at the corporate office, yeah.

• 6:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I love it.

• 6:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I told you about how she, after a meeting, jokingly, like, did the kick her leg up Clothes Time thing, but she was wearing a tight skirt and fucking flew out. Her legs were from underneath her and landed on her fucking ass in a corporate office.

• 6:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Did people go crazy laughing?

• 6:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 6:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't see Janet handling that well. I love her, but she's a very formal lady. She's like, she's very, like, always blown out.

• 6:36Georgia Hardstark?

  She's good with, like, a, you know, like, a I love Lucy style guffaw, like, guff?

• 6:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I hope so.

• 6:43Georgia Hardstark?

  What's it called?

• 6:44Karen Kilgariff?

  A gaff?

• 6:46Georgia Hardstark?

  A gaff.

• 6:46Karen Kilgariff?

  A stunt, stuntfall?

• 6:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's it.

• 6:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 6:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I have a corrections corner.

• 6:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Hold on, I'm telling my Clothes Time story. God!

• 6:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I forgot. I'm sorry. Go.

• 6:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Now I can't remember what it was. It was just that my mom would always be like, you can get a new thing. And that we would be in Clothes Time for like, 17 minutes. Because I had to look at every item on every rack. Because things didn't always look good on me. I had wide hips, I had big, a big butt, big boobs.

• 7:14Georgia Hardstark?

  The fucking Irish back that I just learned about.

• 7:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I had that fucking Irish back early, where I was like, what's happening?

• 7:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So I'd try things on, I'd be like, I want to wear plaid this and checkered that, because it was the 80s. And everyone would be like, no, no, no, no.

• 7:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Sales girls.

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Truly, after like, 15 minutes, my mom would be like, Karen, I've been at work all day, we have to go. And I'd be like, this is...

• 7:33Georgia Hardstark?

  You wanted this.

• 7:34Karen Kilgariff?

  We can't, I can't shop this way. I can't find my Pat Benatar Love is a Battlefield outfit this way.

• 7:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. And that's why you hate shopping today.

• 7:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It is. I'm, I was truly scarred. I was reverse scarred from you.

• 7:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll go with you, shopping. I'm really good at, this is gonna look great on you. Like, no, it's not. And you try it on, and you're like, oh, you're right.

• 7:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Can we make that plan in three months?

• 7:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 7:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great.

• 7:59Georgia Hardstark?

  What's gonna happen in three months?

• 8:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I, personal stuff.

• 8:04Georgia Hardstark?

  You'll stop, you'll stop, you're stopping your compulsion of ripping clothes to shreds in clothing stores.

• 8:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And slapping whoever's in the dressing room with me, just to slap out.

• 8:12Georgia Hardstark?

  She likes to bring a pair of scissors to clothing stores and just absolutely shredding everything around her, and she doesn't want me to know about it.

• 8:18Karen Kilgariff?

  If I try something on and it has like, a weird bump, or the buttons don't close, I'll just cut it up with large scissors. So it'd be great if you could come with me and help me.

• 8:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I'd love to.

• 8:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, awesome.

• 8:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I'd love to. Corrections corner.

• 8:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Corrections corner, please.

• 8:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Just real quick, remember how I kept yelling about, just call 911, just call 911?

• 8:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:35Georgia Hardstark?

  All these, like, people, all of these, probably one person who works at 911, you know?

• 8:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 8:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Emergency services was like, can you please tell everyone not to call 911 for non-emergency things? And instead to find their non-emergency police number?

• 8:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Actually, that's, not only is that a great point, program.

• 8:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I have, yeah.

• 8:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that what you were gonna say?

• 8:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 8:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Go ahead, sorry.

• 8:55Georgia Hardstark?

  No, please.

• 8:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Program your non-emergency, emergency police station phone number into your phone.

• 9:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 9:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Says police, so you can hit it as fast as 911. But...

• 9:06Georgia Hardstark?

  But you're not clogging up. Fuck, have you ever called 911?

• 9:09Karen Kilgariff?

  No. Wait, no, yes, I did. When the gap, when the gap that I worked at in San Francisco on Market Street got robbed, I had to call 911. I couldn't tell them what streets we were on. I couldn't give them a specific address. And basically, what these guys did was just really fast shoplifting, and they pushed our security guard over as they left. So it was...

• 9:29Georgia Hardstark?

  So like, grab and go, kind of a thing?

• 9:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a grab and go that doesn't, I don't think, really count as a robbery in a major metropolitan city. So they were kind of like, yeah, I guess, call us back if, you know, like, call us back.

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  If you remember if they had a knife or something.

• 9:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly. It wasn't really a true emergency.

• 9:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. All right.

• 9:47Karen Kilgariff?

  What about you?

• 9:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I've called on, like, car accidents.

• 9:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 9:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And maybe a couple, you know, a girl I lived with, this is not funny. I don't know why I'm laughing. I lived with, like, five girls at one time when I was, like, 20. And one of them locked herself in the bathroom and proceeded to have a seizure.

• 10:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm like, yeah, it was, this is not funny. Why am I laughing?

• 10:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe it stresses you out to tell me, a person who has seizures about that story.

• 10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, or maybe I'm traumatized from it, but everything was fine.

• 10:22Karen Kilgariff?

  But you didn't see it?

• 10:22Georgia Hardstark?

  She was fine.

• 10:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It was bad?

• 10:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, no.

• 10:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Was there a bloody mess?

• 10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, no, no. She was fine.

• 10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  My thing is I'm always afraid. Yeah, you can't, if you're, that's a thing that happens like-

• 10:31Georgia Hardstark?

  She was embarrassed and wanted to hide it.

• 10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly.

• 10:33Georgia Hardstark?

  We could all tell. And I wanted to like kick the door down.

• 10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So she's like, can I please privately slam my head against the tile? I don't want to seem ugly in front of my friends. That also happens when people are choking. People always, if they start choking, they get up from the table and go to the bathroom.

• 10:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 10:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Which you should not do. If you're choking, stay around people so someone can give you the Heimlich.

• 10:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I'm so scared of choking. Have you ever eaten something alone and then you're like, the way I just laughed when I was chewing, that should have, I should have choked on that and died. No?

• 11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, I don't think a lot when I'm eating alone. It's a blur. Uh, there's a lot of noises and I like crying.

• 11:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of being alone, this is my other thing I wanted to tell you.

• 11:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 11:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, here's, this is what's wrong with me. And I feel like this is a safe space. Everyone listening has been there. I was, I'm listening again to the audiobook of I'll Be Gone in the Dark.

• 11:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 11:25Georgia Hardstark?

  By Michelle McNamara, because I can't fucking get enough of it.

• 11:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 11:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm listening to it as I fall asleep at night.

• 11:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Dude.

• 11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I know. As I don't fall asleep at night, I should say. So like last week, I'm trying to fall asleep listening to it, which is like, the, the woman's voice who reads, it's like really kind of, it's really soothing and monotone. But the writing is so deep and you're like in it and I can imagine everything. And so I'm like imagining someone breaking in and how they would do it, which is really, I don't want to challenge anyone, but it's kind of fucking hard in this apartment, right?

• 11:54Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 11:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm laying next to Vince who's sleeping. And then I remember that he's leaving the next day for four fucking nights and I'm going to be alone doing this.

• 12:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oy.

• 12:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So the next day I texted my dad and I, a 37 year old woman, had my daddy fucking stay at my house while my husband was out at town.

• 12:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you really?

• 12:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 12:13Karen Kilgariff?

  That's incre- well, that's a testament to how amazing that book is written. But you know what's really funny and you'll feel less alone? My sister's best friend, Adrian, who's like my sister.

• 12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Who is, who has been a listener since episode one. And then I figure, I found out she was a murderer now. Like we both were like, wait, what? And we've known each other for 20, well, now 40 years. Good God. But, um, but, uh, she called me specifically to say, I'm halfway through I'll be gone in the dark. And I am freaking out. She goes, Karen, I have read every true crime book there is. She goes, I've never given a single shit.

• 12:54Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 12:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I have, I've plowed through all of Ann Rule. I've done it all. She goes, I don't understand what's happening. I'm laying awake at night. I am scared shitless. I can't stop thinking about how fucked up this guy was. She's like, do you think he's still alive? Like we were having this conversation where I've never, she's the coolest, most-

• 13:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, she's in fucking, she's in Northern California too.

• 13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 13:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That would scare the shit out of me.

• 13:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But he's down here if he's alive?

• 13:18Georgia Hardstark?

  You think so?

• 13:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Yes, for sure.

• 13:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Why?

• 13:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that's the last place he killed?

• 13:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I keep going through my head being like, go, go through your head of jobs and what, what would he be that would make sense of why he was in those specific cities? So I keep going through jobs and I keep going through like, maybe he was a teacher, maybe he was a, you know, a teaching assistant. Maybe he was a pilot because there was an air force base in Irvine when I was a kid, like, which comes up in the book.

• 13:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And, cause there was also one, right? Where like, I think in Carmichael, right?

• 13:49Georgia Hardstark?

  In Guelita too. There was like, uh, for, read the book, my God.

• 13:53Karen Kilgariff?

  So crazy.

• 13:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to it. I think-

• 13:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like everybody has.

• 13:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we're all, we're all done?

• 13:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought you were, Stephen just turned his notebook over and I thought he was holding up like a cue card for us.

• 14:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's called Will Be Gone in the Dark. He's like, you got the fucking name wrong.

• 14:05Karen Kilgariff?

  You assholes. You are so stupid.

• 14:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, yeah. What if it just said, they caught him?

• 14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  They caught him, guys. It's happening right now.

• 14:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Georgia, it was your dad.

• 14:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia, you invited him into your house. No, but it is such a good book. It's like, and what I said to Adrian is because she is so good at boiling it down. There's no extra writing.

• 14:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:25Karen Kilgariff?

  But also it's not sparse. It's just the most concentrated boiled down. Here's how it happened. Here's this experience for people. And it's all that stuff, which I feel like part of this true crime wave that's just happening to everybody right now is because, this is my personal theory. Because it's all about the monsters hiding in plain view as like the wolves in sheep's clothing. I'm obsessed with that thing where we are now starting to see our government crack apart. Like people who claim to be on one side, claim to be on the other, but in truth they're bought by somebody and you don't even understand.

• 15:05Georgia Hardstark?

  They have no fucking, they're-

• 15:07Karen Kilgariff?

  No moral compass.

• 15:07Georgia Hardstark?

  None.

• 15:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Just sociopaths at large that where everyone's going, oh no, this, it can't be this way.

• 15:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, and that's not even, that is not partisan. That's like, I feel like there's a different level of something happening where people are starting to culturally publicly acknowledge that we have people, men and women in our society that are true monsters that do not seem like anything at all.

• 15:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Karen Kilgariff?

  They speak in low tones. They look very pretty or attractive.

• 15:36Georgia Hardstark?

  They say the right things.

• 15:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. They make you feel great. Nothing about it. It's that Ann Rule Ted Bundy thing.

• 15:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 15:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You cannot see them coming and it's the scariest fucking thing in the world.

• 15:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it's the same thing with Ann Rule that Michelle McNamara has where it's like, well, she's one of us. Like I just like, I want to, I, when I finish listening to it, I want to go have coffee with her and talk about it. She's just so, she's herself is so, and you could tell how, like the book, she describes how obsessed she is and I totally fucking get it. We totally get it.

• 16:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember in the book when she talks about getting that big crazy amount of files that they kind of like snuck out of the building? One of my last conversations with her, she told me about getting the mother load. It was at a patent show I was on. She was in the dressing room. And she was like, we just got this thing. And I, like, I just remember it was a very brief conversation. And also I want to say this, it's not like we, she and I were best friends. I don't want to try to portray that as we had some amazing relationship. I just knew her.

• 16:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:37Karen Kilgariff?

  We had this conversation. I just remember her like total excitement, but also it was this thing of like, like now we have, we have 30 times more information.

• 16:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And now, now we're really going to start to get into something. It was so fucking nutso.

• 16:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 16:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Anyway.

• 16:54Georgia Hardstark?

  What else do you have?

• 16:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, oh, this is very important. Uh, we found this out from, um,

• 17:00Georgia Hardstark?

  You and Stephen?

• 17:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Stephen and I have started a band.

• 17:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Small porn faction.

• 17:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Um, no, this was got, this got sent to us as a story, uh, I believe today on Twitter.

• 17:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I haven't seen it.

• 17:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, and it's so amazing. So of course, uh, on the mini-sodes, we've read a bunch of stories about people finding things in walls. That's been a whole conversation, um, that we've been having. Then there was that story that came through that's incredibly tragic of a woman who fell into her wall and then her body was discovered years later.

• 17:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That baby.

• 17:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That story came through, a lot of people sent it to us. We didn't really talk about it because it's just pure tragedy.

• 17:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 17:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's such a suffocating, terrible feeling.

• 17:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Literally.

• 17:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but then this one came through today.

• 17:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 17:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, the headline of this story.

• 17:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh no.

• 17:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Monk, uh, mystery monkey mummy surfaces in Dayton's demolition.

• 17:53Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Whoever wrote that fucking, what is it called?

• 17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, alliteration?

• 17:57Georgia Hardstark?

  No, yeah, but also what do they call them?

• 17:59Karen Kilgariff?

  The headline?

• 18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not what I meant, but then you said, I'm like, yeah, that's what it's called.

• 18:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, let me read this to you. So this, this happened in Minnesota. Minnesotans long knew Dayton's as a store with just about everything and it's proving even more so.

• 18:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh no.

• 18:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Tim Nelson wrote this, by the way. So Tim.

• 18:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, Tim.

• 18:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You're just doing a great job. We're only two sentences in. Um, it's proving even more so as crews demolished the interior of the iconic downtown Minneapolis store for redevelopment. The latest, a dead monkey.

• 18:29Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 18:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, quote, "We don't know a lot about this monkey, but I can say that there was a monkey found during renovation."

• 18:37Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 18:37Karen Kilgariff?

  "We continue to find a lot of pieces of history like this in the Dayton's project as we redevelop the building."

• 18:42Georgia Hardstark?

  What's historical about a monkey?

• 18:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, unfortunately, this was one of the recent discoveries. Um, crews had previously discovered a wallet long ago stolen from an employee in 1969. And found during demolition of a wall.

• 18:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's fun.

• 18:56Karen Kilgariff?

  A demolition worker submitted a photo of the dead monkey to the Facebook group, Old Minneapolis. So go join that.

• 19:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So a bunch of like old women, old ladies who were like, oh, it's on Old Minneapolis.

• 19:07Karen Kilgariff?

  They're trying to, uh, they're trying to enter stuff on Facebook like, how does this work? Um, that was a robot grandma. I don't know why I said it like that. And longtime customers and employees respond with tales of pet shop on the store's eighth floor and a monkey that went missing in the sixties.

• 19:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine how depressing a 1960s fucking pet shop on the eighth floor of a department store it was?

• 19:30Karen Kilgariff?

  They create, imagine you're in a department store, like we're Mervin's style, but it's the sixties and they're like, oh, you can buy a monkey there too. Do you need a bra? Do you need some plates?

• 19:38Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's happy. It loves department stores.

• 19:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It loves, it loves a cage. It just loves two feet of room. Um, we really don't know the story or the origin behind this find. Um, there are a lot of ideas and theories right now, but none that we can say we understand to be true.

• 19:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet, I bet they're funny.

• 19:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh wait, interestingly, Robinsdale mayor Reagan Murphy says he may know the riddle of the monkey.

• 20:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 20:01Karen Kilgariff?

  "My dad once stole a monkey from a Dayton's display back in the sixties."

• 20:06Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 20:07Karen Kilgariff?

  "They decided to bring it back after it shat all over my dad's friend's bedroom while they were at school." It says the word shat in this newspaper article.

• 20:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Explain my face right now.

• 20:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia's baffled.

• 20:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Horrified confusion, I would call it.

• 20:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right. You just don't know what's going on. Um, they returned it by letting it loose in the store. That is probably, this is probably that monkey.

• 20:30Georgia Hardstark?

  He just outed his dad so hard.

• 20:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hilarious. And now they're having a huge influx of leasing inquiries. Congratulations, everybody, at the Dayton's renovation. That's the best fucking story of all time.

• 20:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I am baffled and I love it.

• 20:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I wonder if someone, if it's shadow over that room, they released it in the store. The manager gets there the next morning, it's shadow over the store. He takes the monkey, strangles it with his own hands, sticks it in the wall.

• 20:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think that, can a man overpower a monkey?

• 20:59Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 21:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Scratch his fucking eyes out.

• 21:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It, monkeys are 10 times more powerful than people.

• 21:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Second question. Why is he in a display? Don't put live animals in a display and a fucking pet store on the sixth floor, everyone.

• 21:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but remember when like Melanie Griffith's mother, Tippi Hedren, had her own tiger?

• 21:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 21:17Karen Kilgariff?

  There was weird shit going on in like the sixties and seventies with people and like exotic pets that couldn't actually be controlled.

• 21:23Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure.

• 21:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye, everybody.

• 21:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go think about, we're gonna go look it up. See you later. Don't laugh into your coffee mug. Don't laugh into your KCRW coffee mug.

• 21:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Now it's a horse. Click clop, click clop.

• 21:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen turned into a demon horse.

• 21:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Click clop, click clop.

• 21:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, I uh, look and listen. I put some extra oxygen in the air for us. So we got a little wacky.

• 21:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, everybody.

• 21:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we are back.

• 21:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's updates.

• 21:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. It is so bananas that 12 days after this episode aired, authorities arrested Joseph James D'Angelo Jr. on April 24th, 2018, and were able to identify him as the Golden State Killer, which.

• 22:14Karen Kilgariff?

  The ultimate update, actually.

• 22:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the one everyone's always looking for.

• 22:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. I mean, I can't believe it. It's like, in this episode, I'm, we're saying like, what was his job? What did he do? It turns out he was a cop, not for long, but he fucking was. And that is like, that was, I remember just wanting all the information when this came out.

• 22:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Oh, my God. It was like, all the theories that we had heard over the years, all those discussions. What a fascinating kind of like thing to li- it really actually felt to me like a timeline shift.

• 22:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:44Karen Kilgariff?

  There were so many big things that happened around that time, obviously. But huge things, not just like, oh, one big thing or one big change, but it just felt like it just kept coming.

• 22:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And I remember like, what, like, just, it opened this door to solving these cases. And it has a lot of them. I wish there were more, but, and I think there will be, but these like suddenly cold cases had a way of being solved without ever needing a suspect.

• 23:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 23:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Which I think, well, I mean, you need a suspect to get their DNA and compare, but you can get that suspect by whittling down their family tree. I mean, it's like suddenly evening the playing field with these monsters.

• 23:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And there's now people like Michelle McNamara, who they take it upon themselves to apply their expertise and what they do best to help move these cold cases along that would otherwise just sit there. Like, this was a predator, a serial rapist, a serial killer. So many, I mean, just like this man, it was just as, just destruction. And it was like, oh, well, it's a cold case. We'll never know. Maybe he's dead. That was like the main theory that people would say, he's probably dead now.

• 24:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 24:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And instead, he's just hanging out in Citrus Heights or wherever his house was, like, living life.

• 24:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So bonkers. It's so bonkers. And um, yeah, if you haven't read All Be Gone in the Dark, I mean, you need to listen to the audiobook, read the book. It is terrifying, but the fact that he was caught makes it a little less so. I remember having my dad spend the night when Vince was out of town while I was listening to this book. There was a window up in the loft, that loft window.

• 24:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 24:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That I was like, sure, he was going to fucking come through and kill me. Like, I was so scared.

• 24:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 24:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Because the book is so incredible.

• 24:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, and that's, this is a predator who like, made his specialty, this exact kind of

• 24:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:43Karen Kilgariff?

  break in idea, like everyone's worst nightmare.

• 24:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 24:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the thing you lay in bed at night and just go, God, and this guy played on all those fears.

• 24:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Times a million. The thing, I remember Patton talking to me about when he learned about what they would find the rope in the couch cushions.

• 24:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 25:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Idea that he'd already been there. He was planning this for days. Like,

• 25:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, it's just so beyond.

• 25:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That and like people who he never intruded into their homes, found that stuff too, because he was planning it, just like knowing he'd get a chance at one of the houses.

• 25:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So it wasn't just the victims that found that. And then that one is crazy. Also, the fact, the thing that he would do where the victim would think he left because he'd be quiet for an hour. And then they'd start to stir and he'd like, clear his throat. Like pure fucking, like, I, levels of, of evil. I just can't wrap my brain around.

• 25:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, he figured out how to scare people the most.

• 25:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 25:44Karen Kilgariff?

  How to scare women the most.

• 25:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And that, just, what an insane kind of before and after for that case and the way that case turned out. And the fact that we had anything, it like, had any thing to do with it at all in the conversation is so weird to me. Because it's so old. We watched it on Cold Case Files. We watched it on forensic files. Like, we all knew this case in all different parts and pieces.

• 26:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Over the years, since the 90s.

• 26:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. About the piece of like, and I think you and I probably brought it up on our first, like during our first true crime meeting of the guy who would put dishes on the back.

• 26:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 26:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Of the spouse, of the, of the man. I mean, yeah, the fact that we started this podcast right when this was all happening and coming to, and you know, a crescendo is, is so fortuitous and so interesting.

• 26:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's just, it's such a time and place. It's almost like smelling a perfume, but it's this story.

• 26:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:42Karen Kilgariff?

  So you're just like, oh, my God, yes, I remember being super stressed and feeling like, oh, my God, we have to answer this. We somehow have to like,

• 26:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 26:50Karen Kilgariff?

  be in this conversation because for me personally, the East Area Rapist was such a thing in Sacramento.

• 26:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 26:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And that then becoming the Golden State Kill, like that, two separate people.

• 27:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:06Karen Kilgariff?

  The cases that were done in San Luis Obispo and, and Santa Barbara and further. It's just so weird. It's like,

• 27:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:13Karen Kilgariff?

  if you wrote it like that as a movie, people would say it's not realistic that that Southern California serial killer is also the East Area Rapist. And it's like, nope, he is.

• 27:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, that and the fact that you knew Michelle McNamara, and I was such a big fan of hers already and her, her blog. Like, just that, like, kind of, I know, just that weird little.

• 27:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That blog was the only hit I would get if I wasn't watching like,

• 27:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 27:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Cold Case Files or something like, and it was so innovative because she was basically applying her brain, but also her passion for this, what is going on here? Why aren't people talking about it? Or whatever she would do, all those cold cases and all those, or they'll just kind of those hanging unsolved ones that bothered her.

• 28:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It was such good work.

• 28:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Should we just really quickly give an update on the very much less serious mummified monkey story?

• 28:12Karen Kilgariff?

  We got mummified monkey and really quick, I have a correction corner.

• 28:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 28:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so old, such an old concept that we have to bring back because I said Melanie Griffin's mother had a tiger. And I was incorrect. She had a lion in the house.

• 28:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Though.

• 28:28Karen Kilgariff?

  She had a lion. But also, it's, it's different in, in a way of like the MGM Grand thing where it's like,

• 28:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:34Karen Kilgariff?

  to me, almost crazier, scarier, because it's more cartoonish.

• 28:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That's like, that, there's photos, go look at the photos online, you guys, of like, this cute little child, Melanie Griffith, like diving into a fucking pool with a full grown lion, not tiger.

• 28:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like Malibu in the 70s. It was a crazy place.

• 28:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Like, I think of Mo. If Mo were that size, I would be, like, even just his playfulness, he'll like, hit me in the face in the morning.

• 29:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 29:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I'd be, I'd bleed out if he were that size.

• 29:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a cat scratch fever epidemic that would break out. Ridiculous. There's no reason in the world to be like, I think I should live with a lion. That's insane.

• 29:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Any wild animal, like, you know what I mean? Like, any of those wild animals when people are like, gung ho and like, I collect whatever it is. And it's like an illegally obtained, like, animal that needs like, sources of heat and food and like, entertainment that you, you have to like, buy on the dark web.

• 29:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And other animals to feed them.

• 29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 29:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That you have to buy on the dark web, like.

• 29:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I'm trying not to piss off snake and reptile people because I do think that makes sense. But when you're getting into like, you know, a fucking crocodile over here.

• 29:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so, but back to what you were trying to say about the mummified monkey story, which I completely forgot about.

• 29:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Same, same. There's still no concrete explanation for the mummified monkey that was found. The best theory is that the animal was a squirrel monkey. So that's a lot smaller than what I was picturing.

• 30:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I was picturing like a silverback gorilla.

• 30:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 30:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Just in a wall.

• 30:15Georgia Hardstark?

  We've got tigers and we've got gorillas.

• 30:17Karen Kilgariff?

  All the big ones.

• 30:19Georgia Hardstark?

  The best theory is that was a squirrel monkey from Dayton's old pet shop or pet display in the 1960s, because that's what they did. Possibly the same monkey that two boys once stole, brought home and then released back into the store.

• 30:31Karen Kilgariff?

  They were like, sorry, we didn't mean it.

• 30:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 30:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Too hard. Can you imagine? It's hard enough to have dogs or cats. You have a fucking monkey in your house.

• 30:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 30:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like a person that just is slightly less reasonable than like a five-year-old.

• 30:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a problem too with like diapers on pets.

• 30:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Even I know it's, it's necessary for a lot of animals, but like, it just makes me sad.

• 30:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. They don't belong there. They should be able to free shit and piss wherever they want.

• 30:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. And Cookie does.

• 31:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we should get into these stories because both of these stories from this episode are amazing. But this one, that's the wrong word. I always use the same words over and over when I describe these horrific, brutal cases that are just, we've just described them all. This one, though, a child killer, essentially.

• 31:22Georgia Hardstark?

  In the 1800s.

• 31:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's get into Georgia's story about Jesse Palmero.

• 31:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Who goes first tonight, Steven, on this lovely hot evening?

• 31:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Steve?

• 31:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit, I don't know either, Steven.

• 31:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I went first last time, didn't I?

• 31:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to go first.

• 31:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Do it.

• 31:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I?

• 31:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, of course.

• 31:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Just because, look.

• 31:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen.

• 31:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I had a can and a half of sparkling wine, so I can tell the story still.

• 31:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 31:54Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Okay.

• 31:56Karen Kilgariff?

  A can and a half of sparkling wine.

• 32:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Classy as fuck.

• 32:02Karen Kilgariff?

  As fuck.

• 32:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's who I am.

• 32:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Congratulations.

• 32:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Congratulations to you, because I have to tell you something.

• 32:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 32:08Georgia Hardstark?

  You were right about something.

• 32:10Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what, can we just sit in that for one second?

• 32:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I knew you'd want to.

• 32:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't happen that often.

• 32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Just hearing the words. Okay, thanks.

• 32:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen, you were 100% right. The Alienist is a good show.

• 32:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 32:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You were right, it's fucking great, I have two episodes left, I can't wait, but I love it. That's what I watched while Vince was out of town.

• 32:31Karen Kilgariff?

  So good, right?

• 32:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's giving you enough of your true crime, or your crime. That wasn't true, I don't think, maybe based on true, but, but also there's like the visuals of that show.

• 32:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Gorgeous, and fucking fanning Dakota.

• 32:43Karen Kilgariff?

  She's nailing it.

• 32:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Nailing it.

• 32:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you think she puts drops in her eyes to make her pupils be cartoonishly large like that?

• 32:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder if it's the lighting guy.

• 32:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe.

• 32:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Lighting human, it doesn't have to be a guy.

• 32:55Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 32:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it is based on true shit. Because here's how I know, they went and did something, and I was like, what is that thing they're talking about? Looked it up, this is the story of the Boston boy fiend Jesse Pomeroy.

• 33:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy fuck.

• 33:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I'm going there. What's wrong?

• 33:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't do this, guys?

• 33:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't, did you?

• 33:15Speaker 02

  I looked it up, and you did the smiley face.

• 33:17Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, tell it into this, okay, so Karen and I, hold on.

• 33:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven tried to go off mic with this.

• 33:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Because he's like, I don't want to, I don't want to fucking throw, because so, see, Karen and I both today, apparently, had to text Steven to go, did we do this already?

• 33:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's hear it.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Well, no, I-

• 33:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't matter anyway.

• 33:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, it doesn't.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Well, the visuals I sent, because I think you originally wanted to do this, and then you didn't.

• 33:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's horrible.

• 33:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's horrible.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  And the final visuals were the giggler and the smiley face killer.

• 33:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And it doesn't matter too, because the episode we posted from Boston isn't this one. So it's, it's only to those people in Boston in the audience who are turning this off right now.

• 33:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great. But they wouldn't, because now it's your turn to tell the story. This is almost like, uh, what is it?

• 34:02Georgia Hardstark?

  The Twilight Zone.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Wait, so you, at the show, you did do the-

• 34:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you think you did this?

• 34:07Speaker 02

  You did the smiley face thing, right?

• 34:08Karen Kilgariff?

  All I know, no, no, no, no, I mean, anything's possible, you guys. All I know is I know the Jesse Pomeroy picture where he's got one goofy eye. But I could have just looked at it, I do that kind of thing where I'm like, look at that weird illustration of a bad boy killer in the end.

• 34:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I remember, but I was so deep into this by then, it was 5 o'clock.

• 34:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I want to hear it all.

• 34:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 34:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I want to hear you tell it to me.

• 34:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I, here's, I don't remember it, so-

• 34:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Perfect, because I don't either, except for the eye, okay, go.

• 34:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Except for the eye, you know this, this photo, this draw, not, it's not a photo, it's a drawing of a boy who's got like a milky weird eye, he's like a, you know, looks 12 or 13 in the photo.

• 34:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 34:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Those are who we're talking about.

• 34:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 34:49Georgia Hardstark?

  This is Jesse Harding Palmeroy, he was born into a lower middle-class family in one of the worst slums of South Boston at the time, in the late 1800s. Charles Town, had to look it up, so I didn't say Charleston.

• 35:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 35:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Charles Town.

• 35:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Good one.

• 35:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Massachusetts, it's the oldest neighborhood in Boston.

• 35:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 35:09Georgia Hardstark?

  So Jesse is born in November, on November 29th, 1859, let's fucking go back there.

• 35:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all the way back.

• 35:16Georgia Hardstark?

  That's way far back. He's the second of two children, his dad, Thomas, is a fucking asshole and a veteran of the Civil War, drinks, has a horrible temper, he beats Jesse with a horse whip-

• 35:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oof.

• 35:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Or leather belts all the time, often making him strip completely before he beats him. Ruth Ann Snowman was his mother, she was a seamstress, she adored Jesse, and throughout all of this shit going on, she never fucking wavered on her thinking on, on defending him.

• 35:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 35:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah, but, come on.

• 35:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 35:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Lady.

• 35:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I think sometimes denial's helpful.

• 35:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true. Okay, so he had been a sick baby, left him kind of, there's all these different accounts of what, okay, here's what I'm going to tell you, I found that the most times about what was wrong with him.

• 36:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 36:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Because there's so many accounts, it said that he was sick as a baby, which left him scrawny and frail, but it also said that he had a large body, oversized body, huge fucking head, his dome was like banana sized, like so large. He had some large, like weird features, I just watched the Andre, the giant documentary last night, so I'm like picturing-

• 36:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Bless his soul.

• 36:23Georgia Hardstark?

  His hand holding a fucking, a fucking beer bottle, can.

• 36:27Karen Kilgariff?

  When it looks like a Barbie toy in a big hand.

• 36:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Bless his heart.

• 36:31Karen Kilgariff?

  How sad would it be if you had a huge body, but you were still scrawny?

• 36:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That sucks.

• 36:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe that, maybe his head was normal size and his body was scrawny, so it looked like he had a giant head.

• 36:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe he was a gray alien. Anyway.

• 36:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe he was a psychopath. Scrawny and fail, it's reported that, quote, "many people," according to some accounts, including his father, it said, "could barely look at him without a shudder because his right eye, maybe due to illness or reaction to a smallpox vaccine," one thing says about an accident, we, it's just hard to tell. I'm sure a historian's yelling at me right now, he had a thick, white film covering his pupil, so he had one white, milky, like marble eye.

• 37:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Got it.

• 37:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Might have had a cleft palate, he was-

• 37:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I just want to say really quick, that just made me think of Jimmy Pardo and his Smile Train, you know Jimmy Pardo on Never Not Funny Podcast? He does all this, like, every year he does the Podcast-a-thon, and he raises all this money for Smile Train?

• 37:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 37:35Karen Kilgariff?

  And Smile Train goes out and gives anybody that can't afford the surgery to fix it, they go fix them.

• 37:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the most gorgeous thing I've ever heard in my life.

• 37:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very, very cool.

• 37:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's very sweet.

• 37:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, sorry, I just wanted to say that.

• 37:46Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 37:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Slightly positive thing.

• 37:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you just every couple, every page add in a fucking positive thing, please? Because this is a really depressing story.

• 37:55Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a bad one.

• 37:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but I'm doing it.

• 37:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, do it.

• 37:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So everyone said that there was something wrong with Jesse, that he wasn't quite right, he got bullied and teased a lot at school, a neighbor said that at five years old, and here's where I lose all fucking sympathy, Jesse stabbed a cat and threw it in the river.

• 38:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 38:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 38:17Karen Kilgariff?

  If he had a bad eye and a cleft palate, he had a shitty time at school.

• 38:24Georgia Hardstark?

  In South Boston. I agree, you're right, every day in South fucking Boston, he got teased mercilessly.

• 38:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Shitty.

• 38:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, so, and pets also disappeared from their home all the time.

• 38:36Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a bad sign.

• 38:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm, he was a loner, he never played or really spoke with other children in the neighborhood, maybe because they fucking bullied him.

• 38:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe because they were assholes.

• 38:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he preferred to spend his time alone, reading dime novels, his favorite was a series based on a man named Simon Gertie, he was a renegade white dude amongst the Shawnee Indians, and he let, they all went on a, on frontier settler massacres in the 1780s, and they made a fucking like serial dime store novels about this dude.

• 39:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. He was on Native American side.

• 39:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, that's-

• 39:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Massacred.

• 39:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 39:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, which is like something they talk about in The Alienist.

• 39:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's exactly right.

• 39:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so creepy.

• 39:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so they took pieces?

• 39:19Georgia Hardstark?

  They must have.

• 39:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Awesome.

• 39:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Off of this, okay, here we go.

• 39:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 39:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And the stories are full of blood, and sex, and gore, and wars, and battle, and crazy shit, and this kid is, little kid is reading this stuff, so it's like video games now, like, did it do it, or did it not? We don't know.

• 39:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Or us with Stephen King, I mean-

• 39:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, right.

• 39:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I read Stephen King way too young.

• 39:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah, but that wasn't real, it was like campy and kind of-

• 39:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I wish someone had told me that.

• 39:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit, Karen.

• 39:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, so you-

• 39:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You didn't know cars can't talk?

• 39:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I've been trying to light shit on fire with my eyes for years.

• 39:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, that's why you get headaches.

• 40:00Karen Kilgariff?

  My daddy actually used to say that when I would get mad, he'd go, "Don't give me those firestarter eyes."

• 40:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 40:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so Jesse's first reported attack took place in the Boston suburb of Chelsea, which was across the river from where they lived, he goes over to Chelsea, Jesse had just turned 12 years old.

• 40:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 40:20Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a fucking baby.

• 40:21Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a baby.

• 40:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's around Christmas time of 1871, and Jesse somehow entices a small boy named Billy Payne to come with him to a remote area, and as soon as they're alone, and don't worry, I don't get too detailed.

• 40:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 40:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesse forces the child to take off all his clothes, just like his fucking dad does, and then he ties him up and takes a rope and flogs the child. The kid, once he's, and then Jesse leaves, once the kid is found, he's too traumatized to give police a good description of who attacked him. I think just that he was a teenager or something like that, because he also looked, he was tall and looked old for his age. Two months later, and this is like, this is so crazy, because it's such a quick succession of attacks.

• 41:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Two months later, in February of 1872, Jesse led seven-year-old Tracy Hayden to the same area, promising that they were going to, quote, "see the soldiers," because that's where they were, fought. He repeated his first assault on Tracy, as well as on his next victim in May of 1872, eight-year-old Robert Mayer, who he lured away by promising him a trip to see the circus. In this attack, the boy said that his assailant, who he couldn't describe, sexually pleasured himself while inflicting his beating.

• 41:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Ugh.

• 41:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And he achieved sexual satisfaction at the height of the boy's suffering.

• 41:50Karen Kilgariff?

  God, he's so young to be doing that.

• 41:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Something is going on at home or other places.

• 41:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Some bad, bad stuff.

• 41:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, to, to, I feel like it takes years for people to equate pain and sex.

• 42:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 42:06Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean, like, that happens when kids are older and they're teens and twenties, because it takes so fucking long to get to that place where your brain is like, these are the things that turn me on and make me come.

• 42:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Except for if your dad is- Stripping you and beating you.

• 42:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it's that your dad is stripping you and beating you so often that it happened by the time he was 12.

• 42:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So I'm not telling myself something was going on his entire fucking life to get him there.

• 42:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's so dark.

• 42:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 42:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 42:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm doing it. It does look like Steven keeps holding up a fucking note, a fucking cue card for it.

• 42:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It literally looks like in the corner of our eye, it looks like Steven's like 30 seconds, 30 seconds to commercial.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  I think it's because this, I upgraded my notebook to be a lot bigger.

• 42:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So it looks like.

• 42:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, let's write some messages on there. No, that's fine.

• 42:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell me anything. Um, just write, you're doing great, George. No one is horrified by this. No one thinks, no one's going to stop listening to this podcast because of this.

• 42:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, this is actually what people listen for.

• 43:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, great. Okay. Great. Not great. However, uh, ba ba ba ba ba. Okay. So then he took off, left the boy alive. So keeping with his 60 to 90 day cycle, Jesse then, uh, in mid-July of 1872, lures seven-year-old Johnny Balk to the outhouse on the Powderhorn Hill in Boston, excuse me. With this, uh, promise of two bits for running an errand. He's like, come on over here.

• 43:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Two bits?

• 43:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Two bits. Don't know how much that is. The assault was similar to the previous ones. The boy was stripped, bound, whipped and beaten until Jesse achieved orgasm. Then he said he'd kill the boy if he ever told anyone and he got the fuck out of there. The public starts going bananas. They flip out. Um, they start calling him the mysterious boy fiend. The police are under pressure to capture him, but they didn't have, uh, very much of a description to go on, other than the attacker was a teenage boy with brown hair. That's all they fucking had.

• 44:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 44:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So like all the teenage boys got rounded up and they were like parading them in front of the victims and they couldn't identify any of them. The city of Chelsea offers a thousand dollar reward and the police, uh, launch an investigation, da da da da. Okay. The attacks stop at this point, just for a little while in late July, possibly due to turmoil in the Palmeroy House when Jesse's father takes off and leaves Ruth to provide for herself and her sons. There's like not information about why he left or what, but kind of good riddance.

• 44:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, for real.

• 44:39Georgia Hardstark?

  But it could also be, so, so they end up moving and that could be because the dad left, but it could also be because there was a description of the quote, boy torturer in the paper. And she possibly read it, recognized it as her son and was like, yeet, we're getting the fuck out of this neighborhood.

• 44:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And this was long ago, long ago enough that if your description got put in the paper and you left town and just moved like a neighborhood over, no one would find you.

• 45:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And no one knew you.

• 45:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 45:09Georgia Hardstark?

  At the next neighborhood.

• 45:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Um, it's not like, what's that app we have where we can talk to our neighbors about weird shit in the neighborhood?

• 45:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking Nextdoor.

• 45:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you love it?

• 45:18Karen Kilgariff?

  My neighborhood, it's filled with paranoid lunatic retirees who are like, who's stealing the oranges off my tree? It's insanity. I read it, I read, laugh and delete them every single day.

• 45:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, this wasn't happening.

• 45:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 45:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Then she, okay, so, uh, Ruth rents a small storefront in South Boston for her dressmaking shop. She opens a dressmaking shop. In August of 1872, the, the three of them, the mom and sons moved to a flat across the street from the shop. Um, and the boys helped out in the shop. And the move coincides almost exactly with the end of the Chelsea attacks and the beginning of the South Boston attacks. So, yeah.

• 46:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is where Marky Mark comes into this story.

• 46:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Do a fucking, I dare you to do an accent right now.

• 46:08Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all I can do.

• 46:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It was the best anyone's ever done.

• 46:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't understand the Boston accent. I can't do it and I can't hear it in my head. I don't get it.

• 46:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I had it when I was trying to get Charles Town, but it's gone and I won't try it.

• 46:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 46:22Georgia Hardstark?

  On August 17th, 1872, seven-year-old George Pratt was wandering around South Boston shoreline looking for treasure.

• 46:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Treasure?

• 46:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Little boy looking for treasure.

• 46:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 46:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I ruined that word for you.

• 46:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That's okay.

• 46:36Georgia Hardstark?

  When he was approached by an older boy who offered him 25 cents to help him run an errand. Jesse binds and tortures the boy and this time, it's so, it starts to escalate at this point.

• 46:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 46:48Georgia Hardstark?

  He bites chunks of flesh from the boy's body and also stabs him with needles.

• 46:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 46:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. And this kid's 12, who's doing this. Less than a month later, Jesse kidnaps and assaults six-year-old, a six-year-old boy named Harry Austin, stripped and beaten like his previous victims, but this time it escalates. He takes out his pocket knife and stabs the child, um, under each arm. I guess it wasn't, but wasn't a deep, uh, stab and he, he goes to try to castrate the boy, but gets that someone comes by just at that moment and he runs off.

• 47:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Good God, thank God.

• 47:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, right? And then six days after this, so six, like this is a fucking fiend. This person is mad.

• 47:33Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a sexual psychopath.

• 47:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. At 12, doing these things.

• 47:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible.

• 47:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Six days after Austin was attacked, Jesse lures Joseph Kennedy, who was seven, into the marshes near the bay and viciously beats him like Austin attacked with a knife. And Jesse forces the boy to kneel and recite the Lord's Prayer, but with obscenities, which is such a childish, weird thing to do.

• 47:58Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what's funny is in the, when you first started talking about this, I was like, I wonder if this guy's Catholic, this boy's Catholic.

• 48:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder like, maybe something was going on at, in his home, like not just with his dad, obviously, but in his school or at.

• 48:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, church. Some creepy priests somewhere in the, along the line.

• 48:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 48:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, yeah, as much as people want to think like you're born this way, you're born evil. It's not a thing.

• 48:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, if he's a sociopath, he wouldn't care if he's hurting people, but it does.

• 48:28Georgia Hardstark?

  If you don't become a soci, you don't, you're not born a sociopath. You become a sociopath.

• 48:33Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I think you're born a sociopath.

• 48:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it nature or nurture? Let's decide right now.

• 48:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's debate it. Let's, let's debate it. Woo.

• 48:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Good lead. Okay. Six, okay. Six days later, like the fact that he thought that reciting the Lord's Prayer, but with obscenities was like part of the torture, shows what a child he was and how, and how,

• 49:00Georgia Hardstark?

  how off his understanding of, I don't know, I just.

• 49:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I have to say, when you just said that fact, it kind of made my heart race a little bit.

• 49:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, because it's like, you're gonna get like.

• 49:10Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't fucking say swears during the Lord's Prayer.

• 49:13Georgia Hardstark?

  The boy refused to do it.

• 49:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Yeah, that's very, like, that's, that's so taboo. It's, it's like a consecrated, that's not the right word, but it's a holy thing. It's like you're talking to God. So it's like you're saying, fuck you, God.

• 49:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 49:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is not allowed in 1860, whatever.

• 49:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you, um, can you, uh, sample that track of Karen saying fuck you, God and just put a fucking hard techno beat and then send it? Send it to her school that she went to, her Catholic school.

• 49:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck you, God.

• 49:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That would be amazing. This is not funny. Okay.

• 49:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not.

• 49:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Six days later, five-year-old.

• 49:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It's actually stressing me out.

• 49:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry.

• 49:55Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, I mean, because it's just, it's bad, it's bad.

• 49:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 50:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, go ahead.

• 50:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 50:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Stressing in a good way.

• 50:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Six days later, five-year-old, a five-year-old boy named Robert Gould was found lashed to a post near railroad tracks in South Boston and told, and he's told about an older boy who lured him to the remote area with a promise to see soldiers. And then when they were alone, the boy stripped him and beat him and, um, slashed him. And this kid, Robert, was finally able to give the police their first good lead in the case after all these victims. He described his attacker as a large boy with an eye like a white marble.

• 50:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. I, I wonder why none of these other boys, he must have hid it from them somehow.

• 50:39Georgia Hardstark?

  They were really traumatized too.

• 50:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I guess that's true.

• 50:43Georgia Hardstark?

  They could talk about it maybe.

• 50:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Who knows?

• 50:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So horrible.

• 50:48Georgia Hardstark?

  The Boston police, okay, so then, uh, they're like, great. They fucking conduct a classroom by classroom search of the Boston school system. They even go to Jesse's fucking school, but somehow they didn't see him. And then for an unknown reason, maybe guilt, maybe toying with them, who the fuck knows? Maybe he was 12 and didn't have, wasn't thinking the way we think. In fact, on his way home from school that day, Jesse walks into the South Boston police station where detectives are sitting and questioning, uh, the victim, Joe Kennedy. He's, Joe spots Jesse from across the room. And in the meantime, Jesse's like, for some reason, like bad idea and it's like fucking crab walking out of there.

• 51:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:27Georgia Hardstark?

  But fucking Joe Kennedy is like, that's fucking him and starts yelling that that's him. And so the police grab him.

• 51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 51:37Georgia Hardstark?

  A few other victims were able to identify Jesse as their attacker, including one from the Chelsea neighborhood who exclaimed, that's the boy who cut me.

• 51:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 51:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Later that night during questioning, he confessed to all the crimes and he's, but he later recants all of that, but he is arrested. And due to his age, he's sentenced to the state reform school at Westboro for the term of his minority, six years.

• 52:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 52:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So he's 12 years old and they're like, you did all this horrible stuff. You're going to reformatory school.

• 52:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 52:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's it.

• 52:08Karen Kilgariff?

  The end.

• 52:09Georgia Hardstark?

  No, unfortunately.

• 52:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want it to be?

• 52:14Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 52:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesse is a star inmate. He applies himself to his studies, but of course, he's bullied by the other children and his mother is like, how fucking know he didn't do it? And she hardcore petitions for his parole and it's confirmed before he even spent two years there. So Jesse, he's now 13, is quietly paroled into his mother's custody on February 6th, 1874.

• 52:41Karen Kilgariff?

  These pieces of this story are coming back to me, like the thing of the, in the police station where I'm like, I think I did do this at a live show.

• 52:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I think you did.

• 52:50Karen Kilgariff?

  But my brain is such that it's also a very new experience where I'm like, he did not get paroled.

• 52:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you do it in, at New York, in New York?

• 52:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't fucking know. Who cares? Let's just talk.

• 53:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's just talk. That's what our podcast is called now.

• 53:05Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what it's about.

• 53:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's just talk.

• 53:07Karen Kilgariff?

  We love talking.

• 53:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So he's paroled and then in April, on April 22nd, 1874, all right. This list gets bummer. I mean, not that it hasn't been. Two boys playing in the marshes between South Boston and Savin, near South Boston.

• 53:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Say it.

• 53:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Savin Hill.

• 53:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Spell it.

• 53:28Georgia Hardstark?

  S A V I N.

• 53:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 53:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Savin?

• 53:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Savin or Savin?

• 53:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Savin Hill.

• 53:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Or a third option that we could never anticipate.

• 53:34Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not spelled the way it sounds.

• 53:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Or, yeah, it's, it's seven. Okay, go ahead.

• 53:40Georgia Hardstark?

  They discover the body of a young boy lying on his back in the mud. I know.

• 53:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So little boys find a dead little boy?

• 53:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Police are summoned and the boy is identified as Horace Millen of South Boston. He's four years old. I know, I'm sorry. His throat's been cut and his body had been, had numerous stab wounds, around 33 total.

• 54:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 54:05Georgia Hardstark?

  He'd also been sexually mutilated. Fucking poor little baby.

• 54:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Escalation.

• 54:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Escalation.

• 54:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Police found footprints nearby that led back to a wharf a half a mile away. And there they like follow the fucking footprints and they're like, hey, anyone around here see anything this morning? And a bunch of witnesses recall a young teenager walking around with Horace. The boys, the two boys, the teenager and Horace then jump from the wharf, the older boy helps this little companion down. And then he takes the older boy's hand and together they walk away across the marshes towards where Horace's body had been found.

• 54:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Awful.

• 54:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 54:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And also very Mary Bell.

• 54:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly. Mary Bell is like always mentioned in this kind of, in his articles.

• 54:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's that same thing. And she was, she was being basically sexually tortured.

• 54:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. There's no way he wasn't.

• 54:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, even just like his, what his dad was doing to him, it was way more than that.

• 55:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 55:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Not that, that's an excuse. This is horrible. Okay, here we go.

• 55:10Karen Kilgariff?

  All bad.

• 55:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Ba ba ba ba ba. Okay. This time because of his record though, the police fucking were like, we know who did this. They arrest Jesse at his home where they found blood on his clothes, scratches on his skin, and the sole of his boots matched the imprints left on the sand. And there was also marsh mud on his boots. And so when the police confronted him and asked him if he'd done it, he replied, I suppose so.

• 55:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 55:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Nonplussed, I suppose so.

• 55:38Georgia Hardstark?

  His only request was that the police not tell his mother of his, of the latest crime. So I think his mom was like crazy, probably religious and overprotective of him.

• 55:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And you know, that made him crazy too.

• 55:51Karen Kilgariff?

  She also I bet maybe had some guilt because the dad was so awful.

• 55:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. There's no way to correctly parent a child. I'm sorry to tell you guys.

• 56:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Georgia with parenting advice.

• 56:03Karen Kilgariff?

  She has cats.

• 56:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That equals one child, right?

• 56:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 56:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what we agreed upon.

• 56:09Karen Kilgariff?

  One silent child.

• 56:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what we agreed on.

• 56:13Georgia Hardstark?

  A few days later, though, he takes back his confession, denies any wrongdoing, et cetera. So he's waiting trial. He's sitting in fucking jail, waiting trial. And Ruth Pomeroy, his mommy fucking dearest, she continues to voraciously insist Jesse's innocent. She's forced to close her, her dress shop a month after Jesse's arrest. And because the public was pissed the fuck off probably.

• 56:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 56:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And her shop's now vacant. Hi, how are you doing? Shop's now vacant. I'm going to give you a clue. It's not a monkey that they find.

• 56:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 56:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Shop's vacant. It's rented out by the owner of a nearby grocery store. He starts renovations. Don't do that. Do it though. In late July, a worker knocking down a wall in the cellar notices some bright fabric sticking out of a pile of ashes and rubbish. Rubbish. He reaches down and gives it a pull and a child's skull rolls out of, rolls out.

• 57:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, and the scream could be heard four blocks away.

• 57:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Four decades.

• 57:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Aye, aye.

• 57:21Georgia Hardstark?

  The police were summoned. They're not called.

• 57:25Karen Kilgariff?

  They are summoned.

• 57:25Georgia Hardstark?

  They're not because there's no phones.

• 57:28Karen Kilgariff?

  The police have a long letter written to them that they received two months later.

• 57:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Tin can is held up with a string. Police are like.

• 57:36Karen Kilgariff?

  A line of children yell down the street in, in grape, in a, what's that called?

• 57:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, telephone?

• 57:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Telephone.

• 57:43Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's not called that though.

• 57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. When you whisper into people's ears.

• 57:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but there's no such thing as a telephone. So it's not called that.

• 57:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Is this pre-telephone days?

• 57:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Isn't it?

• 57:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know.

• 57:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone assigned, a telephone person, email us.

• 57:55Karen Kilgariff?

  A telephone scientist. We'd love to hear from you.

• 57:57Georgia Hardstark?

  You said a thing. Email us. There's going to be some person. Actually, I am a telephone scientist and you're correct. Like it's going to be some sweet email.

• 58:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's going to be.

• 58:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Not what we deserve.

• 58:06Karen Kilgariff?

  My name's Jan Edison and my great grandfather was Thomas Edison.

• 58:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want a tour of the? Because everyone who emails us is nice. Like we don't deserve how nice everyone is to us.

• 58:16Karen Kilgariff?

  No one attacks us.

• 58:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Never.

• 58:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone's like, we think you're great.

• 58:19Georgia Hardstark?

  We get what you meant.

• 58:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're, we forgive your stupidity. Here's the facts that you should be saying.

• 58:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh God, we're so lucky. Okay. But, but, but police know, are pretty sure the skeleton belongs to because earlier that year, on March 18th, just six weeks after Jesse got out of that reformatory before his first murder of Horace, nine-year-old Katie Curran had disappeared while running an errand in the neighborhood of the dress shop. The cops had searched the entire neighborhood, including the Pomeroy store, but stopped searching when another kid in the neighborhood told them that they'd seen a girl matching Katie's description get into a buggy with a strange man. Plus they were like Jesse likes boys. So.

• 59:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right. It's not his MO.

• 59:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So, but Katie's mother identifies the clothes that they found as Katie's and an angry cat, crowd gathers around the, the block. So they take Ms. Palm, Mrs. Palmroy and Charles, the brother into custody for their safety. They end up being there for like six fucking weeks.

• 59:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 59:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Because people are just like, they've had it.

• 59:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And they needed to be witnesses in the trial too. Jesse confesses to Katie's murder. He tells the chief of police that Katie had gone, so Katie had gone out that morning to buy a school thing, a school supply thing, but had gone into Pomeroy's, Pomeroy's store by mistake. She had asked Jesse if they had one. He was manning the counter alone. Remember how she was like, you guys got to work here?

• 59:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:48Georgia Hardstark?

  He lied and told her there was a store downstairs and then he said that when she went downstairs, quote, "I followed her, put my left arm around her neck, about her neck and my hand over her mouth. And with my knife in my right hand, I cut her throat. I then dragged her to and behind the water closet and put some stones and ashes on the body." So fucking crazy.

• 1:00:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so bad. And it's, it is reminding me of The Alienist. Like.

• 1:00:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so parallel. It's amazing.

• 1:00:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, they go and interview him, remember, in his solitary confinement to try to find the killer in this, in the show.

• 1:00:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:00:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember, that's why I found this.

• 1:00:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Chain and, oh my God.

• 1:00:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:00:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Guys, watch it. But Katie's body had, did show signs that he had done more to her than he said. There'd also been wounds, stab wounds and mutilation, much like the Millen kid. Later, when asked at an inquest why he'd done it, Jesse said, I don't know. I couldn't help it. It's here, said, pointing to his head. It is here, he said, while he pointed at his head.

• 1:00:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You said that twice for

• 1:01:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause I said

• 1:01:01Karen Kilgariff?

  To underline it.

• 1:01:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's here. And that's not a quote. It is, it is here, which is so awkward. Okay.

• 1:01:08Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how people talk back then.

• 1:01:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:01:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially in Boston.

• 1:01:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Especially in Boston.

• 1:01:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Very proper.

• 1:01:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Da, da, da, da, da. Okay. Okay. In December, Jesse's tried for the Millen murder and people are like, how the fuck did this happen? I guess this was not a normal thing. This, there had never been a boy serial killer before. He's the first fucking one.

• 1:01:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Georgia Hardstark?

  In America. They wanted to know why it committed such atrocities. Tons of experts were hired and they all hypothesized what was wrong with him.

• 1:01:36Karen Kilgariff?

  But also like, it's crows back then. No one knew what the fuck was going on.

• 1:01:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the telephone and that person was a witch and got drowned.

• 1:01:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. It's these gas lamps they're trying to put into our homes.

• 1:01:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. There's no such thing as telephones. You're a witch.

• 1:01:50Georgia Hardstark?

  They ultimately though, didn't think he was insane, just evil and had no feelings for his victims and felt no remorse for any of his acts, which we all know that now. Come on. And Ruth continues to fucking be like, he's innocent. And she was even like, Katie's body was put in the cellar after she left the store by someone else to like frame her kid. She just wouldn't fucking buy it.

• 1:02:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Honey.

• 1:02:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, sweetie. The jury convicts Jesse on first degree murder with a recommendation of mercy because of his age. So he could have, they could have recommended death by hanging, but they were like, he's fucking 14 at this point.

• 1:02:28Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 1:02:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And but then the judge was like, nope. I sentence him to be fucking hanged.

• 1:02:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:02:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Hanged, which, and everyone freaked out. It was like, you can't hang a child. And so eventually his sentence is commuted to life in solitary confinement.

• 1:02:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So on September 7th, 1876, just three months shy of his 17th birthday. Okay. I was wrong about the age. Just three months shy of his 17th birthday. Jesse was taken to the state prison at Charlestown, where for the next 16 years, he lived in a 10 by eight by eight cell built in 1805 to house the insane. So you can't imagine it was fucking choice digs.

• 1:03:14Karen Kilgariff?

  In that, and in that TV show, it's awful. It's like a dungeon, basically.

• 1:03:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:03:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's so fucking scary. How about that fucking actor who I didn't even think until this very moment was an actor? Because he was so scary in that part.

• 1:03:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Is he?

• 1:03:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Who is he?

• 1:03:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Who is he? Jesse Pomeroy.

• 1:03:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Job. Fictional Jesse Pomeroy.

• 1:03:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Okay. So he tries to escape all the time. Doesn't happen. But he also becomes a voracious reader, reads all 8,000 books in the prison library.

• 1:03:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 1:03:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is like, you got time on your hands.

• 1:03:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:03:44Georgia Hardstark?

  He learns French, German, Greek, Latin, all this other shit. And he becomes.

• 1:03:49Karen Kilgariff?

  What? And then he becomes Hannibal Lecter. I mean, what the fuck?

• 1:03:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. That's also insanely tragic.

• 1:03:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Isn't it?

• 1:03:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Because if his fucking father

• 1:04:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:04:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Left him alone, he could have been, in my theory, a sociopath who doesn't hurt people, but who was incredibly intelligent and then just kind of didn't care if he saw bad things happen.

• 1:04:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Or it's like too, that you think like, if he hadn't had these, these oddities about him that kids didn't fucking mercilessly bully him about, he wouldn't have been so angry and have so much anger to get out on children that were smaller than him. You know, he, they took it out on him, whatever was going on in those kids' house. He took it out on smaller children.

• 1:04:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. But the difference is like teasing and being mean is one thing, but what this guy did was like, he's a psychopath.

• 1:04:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:04:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, between home and school though, he never had a moment of not being, because they didn't just tease him. I'm sure they beat him up and shit. I'm not defending a fucking psych, like, serial killer.

• 1:04:51Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, I know. But you are arguing nature versus nurture.

• 1:04:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I am never, I am doubling up on my birth control tonight because I am never having fucking children.

• 1:05:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Just take two extra. It'll be fine.

• 1:05:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I do think nature versus nurture. I think nature and nurture, but I don't think you can have, I don't think, all right. Anyways, how many semesters of psychology did I take at community college, do you suppose?

• 1:05:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you do half and then drop out?

• 1:05:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I probably took level one, like three times and dropped out each time.

• 1:05:25Karen Kilgariff?

  You heard that story of the guy that got the fencing sword up his nose and touched his frontal lobe?

• 1:05:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone loved that.

• 1:05:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Lost his, just long-term memory or whatever.

• 1:05:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It was very fascinating. Phineas Gage. Okay.

• 1:05:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that him?

• 1:05:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. And he becomes.

• 1:05:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Phineas Gage is the guy that had the full-on railroad tie in his head though.

• 1:05:46Georgia Hardstark?

  What, what were you talking about?

• 1:05:47Karen Kilgariff?

  There's one guy that got a fencing sword.

• 1:05:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I don't know this one.

• 1:05:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Went up his nose, touched his frontal lobe. And then every time you walked in the door, he'd be like, hi, good to see you. And then you'd leave and one minute later and he'd be like, oh my God, hi, good to see you.

• 1:06:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That must've been level two, because I don't know that guy. Karen, you must've gone further than me.

• 1:06:05Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, I don't think we even have to say this anymore. Could be completely wrong about that.

• 1:06:10Georgia Hardstark?

  But we aren't. Okay. Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. Greek, Latin, et cetera. Oh, and he becomes obsessed with learning about law in an attempt to get himself the fuck out of prison.

• 1:06:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:06:19Georgia Hardstark?

  All this shit happens, but it never works, obviously. Later, a commission of three psychiatrists, maybe our fucking dude from The Alienist.

• 1:06:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh yeah, that's right.

• 1:06:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And a prison physician studied him and in 1914, after he'd spent 38 years in solitary, they found him to be sane and intelligent, but a cold paranoid manipulator, utterly obsessed with his pardon. So the only person who visited him was his mother, who visited him every month until her death around 1915.

• 1:06:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:06:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And then in the late 1920s, Jesse was the state's oldest prisoner.

• 1:06:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 1:06:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is like, and you could, there's photos, there's like photographs of him. He looks like just an old man.

• 1:07:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause he was just an old man. I wonder what would happen if they had let him out. He would have murdered people.

• 1:07:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Immediately go kill a child.

• 1:07:12Georgia Hardstark?

  He and Albert Fish would be like, what's up?

• 1:07:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Real.

• 1:07:15Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna be roomies.

• 1:07:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I've got your needles.

• 1:07:17Georgia Hardstark?

  This is a fucking sitcom.

• 1:07:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I've got your needles. Okay. Okay. In 1916, 41 years into his fucking sentence. So he's like, double the time he was alive.

• 1:07:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Or out.

• 1:07:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:07:32Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean? Jesse's solitary confinement is lifted. He, he had spent the longest stretch in solitary confinement, second only to the Birdman of Alcatraz.

• 1:07:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:07:43Georgia Hardstark?

  He's, yeah.

• 1:07:44Karen Kilgariff?

  The Birdman of Alcatraz is a good movie by the by.

• 1:07:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I should watch it again.

• 1:07:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Clint Eastwood, Alcatraz, San Francisco, birds. What, what more could you want?

• 1:07:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, we're offering you so much.

• 1:07:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at that movie.

• 1:07:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. We're coming to an end here, guys. Calm down. In 1929.

• 1:08:01Karen Kilgariff?

  92.

• 1:08:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And then, he wrote books and shit too. In 19, and I'm going to read you one now.

• 1:08:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:08:08Georgia Hardstark?

  In 1929, 71-year-old Jesse Pomeroy is removed from the general population at Charlestown, taken by automobile, his first and only ever fucking automobile ride. Taken by automile, automile.

• 1:08:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. To an automile.

• 1:08:24Georgia Hardstark?

  To an automatic, to auto, Bridgewater Prison Farm for medical care, first only car ride. First time being outside of the prison in about 55 fucking years.

• 1:08:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus.

• 1:08:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And everyone was like, he seemed non-fucking plus by it.

• 1:08:39Karen Kilgariff?

  He just didn't give a shit.

• 1:08:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Didn't give a shit. Which is like, fair enough. Your brain at that point has to be mush. Two years later, after 58 years in prison, almost all of it spent in solitary confinement, Jesse Pomeroy, the boy fiend, dies at Bridgewater. He was dismissed in the press as, quote, "the most friendless person in the world" and, quote, "a psychopath."

• 1:09:04Georgia Hardstark?

  His final wishes were that his body be cremated and his ashes, that's my brother's name, and his ashes scattered to the four winds.

• 1:09:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:09:16Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the story of boy fiend Jesse Pomeroy.

• 1:09:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 1:09:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Boston.

• 1:09:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It is, that is the most nutso story.

• 1:09:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. I tried to do my best with not.

• 1:09:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It was great.

• 1:09:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:09:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It was fresh and new for me.

• 1:09:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I just wanted a chance to tell you.

• 1:09:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Page of this podcast where it's always a new story for me.

• 1:09:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:09:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I pull something out of my nose.

• 1:09:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I just really wanted to tell you, you were right about The Alienist. I kept going back to that. I'm like, why are you doing this story? It's so horrible. And it's like, Karen will like the start of it.

• 1:09:49Karen Kilgariff?

  A hundred percent. I like the whole thing. But also because I feel like those are the stories, those are the stories I like to talk about the most because A, it's long, long ago. So we don't have to be as sad as we normally feel.

• 1:10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:10:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Even though it's awful. And then there's that interest of, like, the way things were set up. This was like, probably right when, like, police forces began. It's all that kind of stuff where everyone was learning. And I'm sure no one was gonna go, oh yeah, 12-year-old's killing these kids. Like, no one. There, I'm sure they were like, a wolf is loose in our, in Boston.

• 1:10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I didn't get into how fucking bananas the press went over this at the time.

• 1:10:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it was, it was unprecedented. And I think stories like this and fucked up stories like The Candyman and shit are like important because you can't just like, you have to, this exists and this is what happened and we, you know, you have to, I don't have to tell you exactly what he did to his victims, but I, but it's a crazy fucking story that.

• 1:10:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's a real thing that, like, this is a human condition, even though it's extreme and rare. This is something people, human beings can do.

• 1:10:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Which people have been in denial about.

• 1:11:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Which is why we're obsessed with true crime is that we can't believe that humans are capable of this. So we want to know as much as possible because we're so compounded by it.

• 1:11:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:11:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And so you can't skip over the really, really worst ones because those happen too. I mean, you can if you want.

• 1:11:15Karen Kilgariff?

  People are tuning in for that shit. Nobody wants that. Everyone's like, tell me the worst, please.

• 1:11:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I was just thinking, like, all the people who are like, I have a baby boy and I can't, I can't listen to this stuff. And I'm like, all right, well, I have two baby nephews and I want to, I want to know about this shit. I'm fascinated. It horrifies me. I want.

• 1:11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  We all know babies. Quit bragging, everybody.

• 1:11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Please, but then I'm sure, we all know babies.

• 1:11:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Quit holding your baby friendships over my head. I like what I like. Enough.

• 1:11:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:11:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we're back. Are there any updates for this one?

• 1:11:57Georgia Hardstark?

  There are no updates, but there are some books written about him, one by him, an autobiography, which is very surprising.

• 1:12:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:12:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And a documentary called Jesse Pomeroy, The Boston Boy Fiend, which I haven't seen it. It looks like it's an upcoming independent documentary, so look out for that.

• 1:12:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's cool.

• 1:12:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Very, very interesting. No other updates, so let's get into Karen's story about Issei Sagawa.

• 1:12:32Georgia Hardstark?

  911, what's your emergency?

• 1:12:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  911 Nashville returns.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:12:47Speaker 03

  Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

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• 1:13:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Mine is another one of these stories, interestingly, that's so famous, I was had to contact, as we said, contact Stephen, because I was like, how do we not do this yet?

• 1:14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And as I read it, I was like, I could hear you, I could hear your voice saying it.

• 1:14:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So I was like, this could be, I could be making a huge mistake. It's the story of Issei Sagawa, the Japanese cannibal who walks free. Do you know?

• 1:14:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't, and I know if I would have known if you'd done this.

• 1:14:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Get ready.

• 1:14:29Georgia Hardstark?

  To fucking scream.

• 1:14:31Karen Kilgariff?

  On the night of June 11th, 1981, by the way, Stephen helped me with most of this research with the chronology.

• 1:14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks.

• 1:14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Today, thank you, Stephen. But then I also watched the beginning of an amazing documentary from Channel 4, Britain's Channel 4, a channel that makes incredible documentaries for TV. And there was a really old one that they had made about this guy, and it was called Excuse Me for Living, which is the name of one of the books he ended up writing.

• 1:15:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a great name.

• 1:15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Isn't it the best? But then you, when you find out what.

• 1:15:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want him to own it.

• 1:15:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, it's so good. But it really goes crazy in depth on his side of things, and kind of like, whatever, his experience. But it's really, really fascinating and really well put together, and very old. It looks like you're watching footage from like the 50s.

• 1:15:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it. The older, the better, because then they can't, like, shit doesn't get like clouded and facts don't get unfacted.

• 1:15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:15:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Let me hear, I don't know anything about it.

• 1:15:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, cool. Also, in this documentary, there's British people from what looked like the 70s, always a joy. There's people named Colin with wiry, crazy hair that's going over to one side.

• 1:15:44Georgia Hardstark?

  The eyebrows?

• 1:15:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, there's a lot of eyebrow action, a lot of tweed.

• 1:15:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 1:15:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Highly recommend. Okay, so on the night of June 11th, 1981, 25-year-old Dutch student Renee Hartveld was studying at the Sorbonne in Paris, and she arrived at her classmates' flat, thinking she was there to help him translate some German poetry for him.

• 1:16:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Never trust a German poet.

• 1:16:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Major.

• 1:16:14Georgia Hardstark?

  There you go.

• 1:16:15Karen Kilgariff?

  She met the small, quiet, 32-year-old Japanese student in one of their classes that they had together. She noticed he was isolated at the French university. He seemed awkward, he was slightly odd, he was very small, he was four foot nine.

• 1:16:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So she felt compassion. Him being alone in a foreign city, she could empathize with. So when a group of her classmates made dinner plans, she invited him along.

• 1:16:47Georgia Hardstark?

  She's a sweet baby angel.

• 1:16:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. They had a long conversation that night on a full range of topics. And overall, for everybody, it was a success. So, soon after, he asked Renee for help translating the German poetry that he had been struggling with, so she went over to his apartment to work on it with him.

• 1:17:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Go to a public place.

• 1:17:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, she thought they'd already hung.

• 1:17:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I know, but like, I'm just saying.

• 1:17:15Karen Kilgariff?

  University.

• 1:17:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Never.

• 1:17:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Very small. She's like, this, he's pocket-sized, there's no threat.

• 1:17:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Public place.

• 1:17:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So, the first night she goes over to help him translate his German poetry, the night ends very abruptly and oddly. Sends her a letter saying, "Sorry about everything last night. Can you please come back over tonight? I really need this help, and I would really appreciate it."

• 1:17:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:17:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So she goes back over, and that's the night of June 11th.

• 1:17:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:17:42Karen Kilgariff?

  So, she feels like she gets that this guy might be uncomfortable, maybe uncomfortable around women, or whatever, so she, she's like, it's fine. She goes back over, she sits down at his desk, which leaves her with her back to the room. And as she is looking over the homework that he needs help with, he walks up behind her with a gun with a silencer on it and shoots her in the back of the head.

• 1:18:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:18:11Karen Kilgariff?

  He immediately faints.

• 1:18:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:18:15Karen Kilgariff?

  When he wakes up, he has sex with her corpse, and then tries to eat her. Because, it turned out, he was not a awkward.

• 1:18:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Four foot nine.

• 1:18:31Karen Kilgariff?

  He was four foot nine.

• 1:18:32Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:18:33Karen Kilgariff?

  But he was not a tiny, powerless, awkward little man. He had been planning to kill her for quite some time.

• 1:18:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:18:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he wanted to eat her flesh. The man's name was Issei Sagawa, and he had a lifelong obsession with cannibalism. He was born in 1949 to wealthy parents in Kobe, Japan. He was very premature, so premature that when his father held him for the first time, he held him in the palm of his hand.

• 1:19:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, god.

• 1:19:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That tiny.

• 1:19:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so sad.

• 1:19:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. His strict but loving parents had another son one year later and raised them as twins, because.

• 1:19:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Issei was so small that he, being the older brother, looked like the younger brother. And as his brother grew up normally and fully, he was very skinny, he just, like, he just was tiny. And he was very, very self-conscious of it from a very early age. Aren't we all so fucking self-fucking conscious?

• 1:19:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything.

• 1:19:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Of our bodies at all times.

• 1:19:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And from a very early age.

• 1:19:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm watching this documentary, and I'm like, it would be great to be tiny, skinny, and four foot nine. Isn't that always the fucking way?

• 1:19:47Georgia Hardstark?

  We're all now, at this moment in time, just learning radical self-immolation. Acceptance, excuse me. I've had two cans of fucking sparkling wine.

• 1:20:00Karen Kilgariff?

  If we could just learn to spontaneously combust ourselves into the stratosphere.

• 1:20:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Think of all the weight you would lose.

• 1:20:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Think about the universe loving you if you were just particles on fire.

• 1:20:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:20:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So, so he is obsessed with the fact, he repeatedly in these documentaries talks about himself being ugly, being tiny, and being skinny. And also oddly, and they have, they have home movie footage in this Channel 4 documentary, of his uncle used to come to their house, and they would put on a play where the uncle played a man-eating giant, and the two little boys would play princes, that he would, the giant would then grab up, put into a pot, and eat, and cook alive and eat. And so.

• 1:20:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I have fucking chills.

• 1:20:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 1:20:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's creepy.

• 1:20:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you had to see it. And he, in the documentary, when he talks about it, kind of makes this face, like, why, why did he do that?

• 1:20:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, they're interviewing him?

• 1:20:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, dude. Yes.

• 1:20:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, go on.

• 1:20:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It's part of how disturbing this story is, is he is, he basically becomes famous for being a sexual psychopath.

• 1:21:07Georgia Hardstark?

  How have I never heard of this? Go on.

• 1:21:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So, so he attributes that experience, but he also was, so he became obsessed with this idea of man-eating giants, monsters that could eat men, human beings, the idea of eating human flesh. To the point where in first grade, he asked his teacher about the moral repercussions of eating human flesh.

• 1:21:31Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:21:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Imagine, now imagine those chills that you would get.

• 1:21:34Georgia Hardstark?

  How old is a first grader?

• 1:21:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Seven?

• 1:21:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm looking at my seven-year-old nephew. Hey, Auntie Georgia.

• 1:21:42Karen Kilgariff?

  What's your stance on eating other people?

• 1:21:44Georgia Hardstark?

  If I wanted, I would be like, oh my god.

• 1:21:48Karen Kilgariff?

  You'd be shaking, you'd be like, excuse me, I'll be back in.

• 1:21:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Get away from me, Micah.

• 1:21:54Karen Kilgariff?

  You'd you'd pull a Clarissa Starling, go, may I use your phone, please?

• 1:21:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, that was, that was beautiful, Karen.

• 1:22:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. He thought the idea, the reason he was so obsessed with it is that he thought that if he could eat other human beings, it would fill him out and make him bigger, stronger, make him, he felt like he wasn't, he was only half there. And that everybody else was fully formed. So he got this idea and it became this obsession. If he could just consume someone else, it would fill him out and make him whole.

• 1:22:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I get, I think it's crazy and he's mentally ill, but I get from first grade on, having this obsession.

• 1:22:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, the logic of it.

• 1:22:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:22:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, for sure.

• 1:22:37Georgia Hardstark?

  The logic of the crazy, I fucking get.

• 1:22:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and.

• 1:22:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I've been crazy and obsessed with a specific thing in my life many fucking times.

• 1:22:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, and to the point where like when you have body dysmorphia, where when you see yourself one way, you literally cannot see yourself.

• 1:22:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And you think everyone sees that.

• 1:22:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And obsesses on it when in fact, everyone's just obsessing about themselves.

• 1:22:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 1:22:58Karen Kilgariff?

  But when you also have then uh uh some kind of a psychopathy, then your, that obsession doesn't, you don't, don't get distracted by other things. You, you continue to obsess on it to the point where then you begin to fantasize about it. And so then when he moved into adolescence, the obsession and the fantasies, it, they became intertwined, the sexual aspect and the cannibalism became intertwined.

• 1:23:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So this is level three of psychology.

• 1:23:26Karen Kilgariff?

  This is, I am pretending to know what I'm talking about to the point where I'm starting to believe it and it feels.

• 1:23:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds great.

• 1:23:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking great. Yeah.

• 1:23:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds great.

• 1:23:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a true victory for me tonight.

• 1:23:39Karen Kilgariff?

  When he's fifteen, he actually, it gets so bad, he reaches out to a psychiatrist. And he uh explains that he is having sexual fantasies involving murder and cannibalism. And um.

• 1:23:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:23:53Karen Kilgariff?

  He's also tells them that he's, it's, it's focused on Western, they, they keep referring to them as Western women, but it's basically white women.

• 1:24:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Tall, blonde, kind of Marilyn Monroe type women. That are fully curvy and curvaceous and that's what he's seeing is that would fill me up. That would make me whole.

• 1:24:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 1:24:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's also symbolic.

• 1:24:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Once he spills the beans, he's too scared to go back. He, so he just never goes back again. And at one point, maybe a little later on, he also goes to his brother and confides in his brother that he wants to eat human flesh. And his brother's like, you fucking nut, and never talks about it again.

• 1:24:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Isn't that great? Cause I was gonna be like, well, he's so crazy or like mentally ill, he doesn't know to go get help. But then he fucking did.

• 1:24:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Like when I am starting to obsess about a thing, I know to go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

• 1:24:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:24:42Georgia Hardstark?

  He did that.

• 1:24:43Karen Kilgariff?

  No, he did. He actually, and he was young too, which is really hard. It's hard when you're younger to be like, I'm gonna get some, a professional in, involved in any of that.

• 1:24:52Georgia Hardstark?

  In the Japanese culture too.

• 1:24:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:54Georgia Hardstark?

  That can't be a big thing, right?

• 1:24:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I, I, I don't know, but I'm saying yes, very authoritatively.

• 1:24:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet someone will very nicely correct us.

• 1:25:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Hopefully. Okay, so it's not until he's twenty-three and he's still living with, at his parents' house, that he finally acts on these obsessions. A young German woman moved into the neighborhood and he sees her and he's like, this is my chance. He starts obsessing on her and he, uh, he, he's obsessed with biting her butt.

• 1:25:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:25:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So one night, he breaks into her apartment. He only has an umbrella in his hand. He's wearing a Frankenstein mask. But remember, he's four foot nine.

• 1:25:36Georgia Hardstark?

  That's scary.

• 1:25:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrifying. He goes into her room, she's asleep, and he's standing there trying to figure out what to do first. And his knee touches her leg and she, he wakes her up. So a tiny Frankenstein with an umbrella is standing next to her bed. She starts screaming. He freaks out, he goes to run away. She grabs him by the hands and wrestles him to the ground and calls the cops. So the cops come, they arrest him.

• 1:26:05Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fuck?

• 1:26:06Karen Kilgariff?

  On attempted rape charges. But then um Issei's father is very rich and has a big influential fancy job. So the father pays off this German woman um to drop the charges. So she takes the money and she's like, see you later, alligator. And nothing else happens. Except for they send him to a psychiatrist again.

• 1:26:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:26:30Karen Kilgariff?

  But like this now, this time now, the whole family knows.

• 1:26:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:33Karen Kilgariff?

  He goes to the psychiatrist, the psychiatrist gets downloaded all the shit that's going on with him. And uh, the psychiatrist come back, comes back um and tells him or his parents or whatever, that he is a sexual psychopath and extremely dangerous.

• 1:26:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:26:50Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, thanks a million, and they do nothing.

• 1:26:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Later days.

• 1:26:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So five years later, in nineteen seventy-seven, Issei moves to Paris to pursue his PhD in comparative literature at the Sorbonne.

• 1:27:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I didn't graduate, I didn't finish community college. And I'm not a sexual sadist.

• 1:27:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, both of those things are true.

• 1:27:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Two, two truths and a lie. Let's hear that lie.

• 1:27:17Georgia Hardstark?

  That's crazy.

• 1:27:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, also, he is clearly very high level.

• 1:27:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Intelligence.

• 1:27:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:23Karen Kilgariff?

  So there's a, there's so much going on.

• 1:27:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so I don't feel bad.

• 1:27:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, don't feel bad at all. He's surrounded by, now he's in Paris though, surrounded by the object of his, the objects of his sadistic murderous fantasies. Everywhere he looks, there's these big, huge, comparatively Western women that he has been spending all of his young life in Japan obsessing over and thinking about and rarely seeing. Now he's fucking smack dab in the middle.

• 1:27:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:27:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So in nineteen seventy-nine, he basically is, he's of course still thinking about it. He's like, he wants to do it. He knows he has to. It's his obsession. Then in nineteen seventy-nine, the American actress Jean Seberg commits suicide in her car in Paris. And it's right near his apartment. And so he sees that as a sign that now it's time to start committing.

• 1:28:17Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:28:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, uh, the, basically to make his fantasy come true.

• 1:28:22Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's not.

• 1:28:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So throughout that year, he uh started hiring sex workers to come back to his apartment, but he never had the guts to do anything out of control in, in any way that anybody reported or anybody knew about. But then one day, Renee Hardveld uh walks into his classroom and he is immediately obsessed with her. He thinks she's beautiful. He starts drawing pictures of her and he begins to plan her murder um so that he can eat her.

• 1:28:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:28:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So, so we skip back to the night where he shoots her, he faints.

• 1:28:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Poor babe.

• 1:29:00Karen Kilgariff?

  When he comes to, rapes the corpse.

• 1:29:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:29:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Then he tries to tear her flesh with his teeth.

• 1:29:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:29:06Karen Kilgariff?

  But it doesn't work. He can't do it. So he leaves and he goes and buys a butcher knife. He comes back to his apartment, he um cuts her up and cooks some of her flesh.

• 1:29:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:29:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And uh then on the night of June twelfth, he takes a cab carrying two big, huge, heavy suitcases to a place called Bois de Boulon. I think I pronounced it right.

• 1:29:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Gorgeous.

• 1:29:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 1:29:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounded right.

• 1:29:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Boulon. It's a public park, okay, in Paris that has a big lake. And his plan, it's eight thirty at night, his plan, he's gonna take these two suitcases that have her cut up body parts in them and put them into the lake.

• 1:29:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No, honey.

• 1:29:51Karen Kilgariff?

  But he doesn't know that there's a restaurant lakeside.

• 1:29:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:29:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So as he is struggling with two huge, heavy suitcases, trying to pull them down to the lake, all these people witnessed him.

• 1:30:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're like eating their fucking chicken Diane. And they're like, look at this.

• 1:30:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Their French onion soup.

• 1:30:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Tiny Japanese man.

• 1:30:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And their baguettes.

• 1:30:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:30:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And they see a tiny Japanese man struggling, struggling, struggling with two suitcases. To the point where he struggles for so long to get them down into the water, he finally gives up near the edge of the lake, lays down on a bench and goes to sleep. When he wakes up, he sees an old man opening one of the suitcases. When the old man sees what's inside, he starts screaming and Issei gets up and calmly walks away.

• 1:30:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:30:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And disappears.

• 1:30:41Georgia Hardstark?

  How the fuck have I never heard of this banana story?

• 1:30:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Isn't that crazy? Um, I've heard, I have heard like large uh.

• 1:30:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Swaths?

• 1:30:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:30:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It's cause I was waving my hand over my head.

• 1:30:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Like taking a paintbrush.

• 1:30:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I've swathed it, but I never knew these fucking nuts of details. So he just fucking high tails it out of there. Slowly, which just creeps me out.

• 1:31:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So the, they basically, all those witnesses call the police, the police. They all say, yep, we saw a cab drop this guy off, he tried to do this, whatever. They find the cab driver, the cab driver is like, yeah, I assumed I was taking him to the train station cause he had these two huge suitcases. And they're like, what's his address? So they go to his address. He's walking out as the police are walking up and he just immediately confesses to everything. So they don't, there's, he's just arrested and taken in.

• 1:31:36Georgia Hardstark?

  The fuck?

• 1:31:36Karen Kilgariff?

  But then the police have to go up into his apartment. And what they find up there is the grisliest, grossest scene.

• 1:31:42Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no hair?

• 1:31:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, because, well, because he'd cut up her body. And so there was wrapped up body parts in his refrigerator. And there's cooked body parts on plates on his kitchen table, along with a plate of peas.

• 1:31:56Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:31:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, it was like he had set up this whole dinner and he had, he had been like, kind of, you know, uh, eating, eating for days.

• 1:32:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:32:06Karen Kilgariff?

  So he is held in prison in Paris, but his father, his rich father, gets him a high-powered attorney.

• 1:32:14Karen Kilgariff?

  He uh comes in front of the judge, Judge Louis Brugger, I think.

• 1:32:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Accident ego. And that judge declares that anybody who would prepare in advance to kill any, someone could not be mentally sound. And so he believes that Asagawa is suffering from advanced dementia. And he orders him to be confined indefinitely to the Henri Collin asylum for the criminally insane. There's no trial. So while he's in the asylum, Japanese writer.

• 1:32:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Inihiko Yamota, hopefully, interviews him about these crimes and about his life. And all of the, they have a bunch of conversations, talk a bunch. And eventually they turn all of that into a biography about Sagawa called In the Fog. And when that biography comes out in Japan, it fucking sells out nationwide.

• 1:33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:33:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, what the fuck? But since no murder charge is ever brought against him in France, the French authorities end up deporting Sagawa back to Japan. And he's sent to a place called the Matsuzawa Hospital. His father's forced to resign from his high powered job. His mother attempts suicide. So this, of course, is horrible for the family. But Issei is becoming a cult phenomenon. So when the book sells, people are fascinated and they say that they think the theory is because Western women are just a kind of a conceptualized object over there. He became like an anti-hero.

• 1:34:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:34:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So it was, it was like this thing of, it wasn't, it wasn't personal to anybody because none of these women looked like any of them. So it was just this kind of, um, yeah, it was just kind of the perfect objectification where people could just be fascinated by the grisly hideousness of the crime.

• 1:34:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It was the murder of an idea, not an actual woman whose family was mourning her. It was like, he wanted to murder this idea.

• 1:34:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And with that, the media went berserk. And at one point, um, the, the magazine, it's a French magazine called Peri Match. And it publishes previously unseen shocking photos of her, of Renee's dismembered corpse. It's such a scandal, a reporter actually gets arrested for it. And a million copies of the magazine are seized by the authorities.

• 1:34:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:34:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So they fucking go round that shit up.

• 1:34:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you find it online?

• 1:35:02Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I didn't look.

• 1:35:03Speaker 02

  I didn't look.

• 1:35:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I would never, I wouldn't look either.

• 1:35:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I would never look.

• 1:35:08Karen Kilgariff?

  You would. I saw the plate of peas in one of the documentaries and I was like, I just, I'm never gonna get that plate of peas out of my head on that dinner table.

• 1:35:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:35:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's plenty for me. But it was that, it was that kind of insane, um, media frenzy that kind of was making, making it popular and so well known. Well, then on August 12th, 1986, Sagawa is set free from the mental hospital that he was sent to due to lack of evidence against him because the French authorities had all the evidence and they locked it up.

• 1:35:41Georgia Hardstark?

  They lock him up in Japan. It's not, yeah.

• 1:35:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it doesn't. So basically he's got the, he's got the juice to get him out.

• 1:35:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:35:48Karen Kilgariff?

  His family gets him out. Three years later, um, a man in Japan abducts and kills four girls. He basically, this guy goes on a murder spree and the media goes to Sagawa and asks him to weigh in on the killer. And from there, he becomes, he starts to become a, like a media celebrity. He starts becoming a columnist for newspapers. He writes, after In the Fog, which was his first book, he writes 18 more books about himself, cannibalism, his murder, all of it.

• 1:36:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You gotta be a psychopath if you can write 18 fucking books, man.

• 1:36:27Karen Kilgariff?

  For real.

• 1:36:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not like joking about writing books. Like, that's crazy.

• 1:36:31Karen Kilgariff?

  No, and also all about himself. So like, so crazy, crazy self obsession. He also appears on television shows and begins to work the lecture circuit.

• 1:36:42Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:36:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Um, eventually, and this is the part where, uh, I watched the Channel 4 documentary and then there was another, another documentary, um, from 2007. And I think it was also a British one from Channel 5. But I might just be saying that because the other one was from Channel 4. But, uh, that also interviewed him, much older. And, um, he started starring in porno. Sadomasochistic porn where he, uh, would be getting beat up, tied up, slapped around by big Western women, white women.

• 1:37:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:37:24Karen Kilgariff?

  One of the pornos that he stars in featured him having a relationship with a Dutch woman, where they actually go to like this theme park that's, that's Dutch themed. So it is like beyond the bounds of good, of bad taste, beyond the bounds of exploitation. Like, he enjoys the fact that he is, he is like this disgusting celebrity for this crime.

• 1:37:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Family.

• 1:37:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Yeah, that's what everyone, all the people, the talking heads in these documentaries, the cops. And there's a, there's a really amazing, um, a professor, a professor that they talked to from Cambridge who's like, all of his books are immoral garbage.

• 1:38:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So does the judge who, in France, does he get talked shit on? Who like, was like, he's just crazy, let's send him away.

• 1:38:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't seem like it. No, none of those things really seem to be connected in any way.

• 1:38:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, if he had been brought to trial in France, then maybe.

• 1:38:23Karen Kilgariff?

  But basically.

• 1:38:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not fucking blaming French people, just that one judge. Or it's like, you gotta let other people decide if he's crazy or not.

• 1:38:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe it was his theory and there wasn't enough, like, psychological evidence to argue it.

• 1:38:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:35Karen Kilgariff?

  But I mean, yeah, that's, I think that, that was the beginning of the breakdown. Also, if his dad had enough, had enough money, and this is again, just a theory of mine, I'm making up in the, on the spot, he might've just paid that judge off and he's just like, yeah, it's.

• 1:38:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That, or he would have gotten, if the trial, if it had gone to trial, he would have had a fucking great attorney and would have gotten him off anyway, so it wouldn't have mattered.

• 1:38:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, the whole, but the whole thing is so insane and disgusting because he did it, he said he did it, the evidence proves he did it. He took this life and then defiled it the worst way he possibly could. And then just kind of nothing happened. So in these documentaries, he is, he's telling people about him. He's, he loves talking about himself, you can tell, laughing. And he says, he, he claims that he has no desire to murder anyone, but he still wants to eat a woman. So it's not the murder he tries to rationalize.

• 1:39:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:39:29Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's just the eating of the flesh. And he, also you, clearly he has romanticized and rationalized this idea, that whole theory of if I just eat someone, I will be whole and all that stuff, is basically kind of his, like, calling card of like, here's why I did it. And it's almost poetic how I needed this because I'm so small and ugly, poor me.

• 1:39:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. When it's like, yeah, okay, go on.

• 1:39:53Karen Kilgariff?

  In 2009, he gave a Vice, an interview in Vice. So Vice did a whole story about him, um, which I didn't watch because after the second documentary I watched, I was like, I've had it with this guy.

• 1:40:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:05Karen Kilgariff?

  But Stephen told me a super hilarious part. Do you want to tell everybody that part?

• 1:40:09Speaker 02

  Okay. So, yeah, when I was reading or looking at this interview, my, the part that really stuck out to me was the interviewer at some point, I think like a third of the way through, he said, I'm just gonna plot ahead with these questions so I can get the fuck out of here.

• 1:40:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how creepy this guy is.

• 1:40:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:40:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And at the beginning of the Excuse Me for Living documentary, it's really beautifully and amazingly shot. He's getting a haircut, but he's just staring into the camera as someone cuts his hair. And I swear to God, he doesn't blink for like two minutes.

• 1:40:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:40:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really, really fucking unnerving and very strange.

• 1:40:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want to watch it. I want to see a photo.

• 1:40:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you have to look at it. But, but when Stephen sent me that text, I was just like, holy shit. Like, it must, he must be so much even more up his ass after, because he's still alive. He is still free. Both his parents died.

• 1:40:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Famous.

• 1:41:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. He doesn't have any money. Like, he, he had to pay off his parents' debts and, you know, he wasn't, he was like living in whatever state-run housing for a while or whatever. But, but basically he's living free and he's kind of doing whatever he wants. And people are still talking to him about his crime, uh, even to this day. Oh, also, in, in that, um, Vice interview, I read a thing where he said, um, uh, he would love to be killed by a beautiful woman, um, or he would love to drown in female saliva.

• 1:41:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Ew.

• 1:41:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And that, my friend, is Japanese cannibal, Issei Sagawa.

• 1:41:45Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fucking fuck?

• 1:41:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Isn't that nuts?

• 1:41:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:41:49Karen Kilgariff?

  There's lots of things you can watch with that guy in it, talking about himself.

• 1:41:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I just want to see a photo of him, but I don't want to watch anything.

• 1:41:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. We'll get you a photo. I'll email you a photo later tonight.

• 1:41:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I would love that.

• 1:42:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, perfect.

• 1:42:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. Wow, Karen, any updates?

• 1:42:08Karen Kilgariff?

  The only update to this case is that in November of 2022, Issei Sagawa died from complications of pneumonia at age 73. And that's it.

• 1:42:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It makes me a little relieved first, you know, like, deep down in my heart that he's not walking the earth anymore, in a way that was like freaky that he was.

• 1:42:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Him getting away with it was just.

• 1:42:29Georgia Hardstark?

  It's unsettling.

• 1:42:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it is. And weird and like, it's what makes me fascinated about like, trying to learn about psychopaths and sociopaths, where it's like, they don't, like, they can do stuff like that, keep on going, write a book, be on talk shows, like, that's the idea.

• 1:42:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And still admit, he's still interested in what he's, like, on TV shows.

• 1:42:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Not changing, not knowing that he needs to keep that to himself. Like, I keep meaning to read that psychopath book, you know, the, um, not a biography, what is it called?

• 1:43:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it The Sociopath Next Door?

• 1:43:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the one. I keep wanting to read that.

• 1:43:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good. It's really skinny. You can, it's incredibly good writing, but technical, like, you're really learning something. But it's not long, which of course, that's all, that's all I can do. Then, welcome to the ADHD book club. 50 pages or less, please.

• 1:43:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm literally reading an ADHD book right now, some scattered minds.

• 1:43:25Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll do Jesse Palmer's autobiography, This Short, A Sociopath Next Door, very short, and, uh, whatever you're reading.

• 1:43:33Georgia Hardstark?

  An ADHD workbook.

• 1:43:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Every page has one thing on it and they're like, wait, no, no, no, come back.

• 1:43:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Stop. Yeah. Okay, let's, uh, let's get into our fucking hurraes.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  Emergency.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns.

• 1:43:59Speaker 03

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:44:05Speaker 03

  All sins swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:44:19Speaker 00

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• 1:45:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God. Yeah, I need a fucking hooray Silkwood shower after this episode.

• 1:45:21Karen Kilgariff?

  How about we fucking hooray ourselves out of, out of all those bad vibes right now?

• 1:45:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it.

• 1:45:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. This is something that I found a guy that I follow on Twitter named Adam Jaskowicz. Jaskowicz, yeah. He tweeted this, uh, this afternoon, and I, I can't stop watching it. So apparently on the Lakers, I'm about to talk about basketball, which I know nothing about. Get ready.

• 1:45:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:45:45Karen Kilgariff?

  We're going into a totally new territory.

• 1:45:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm, I'm ready. I'm scared. I'm here with you.

• 1:45:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay with me.

• 1:45:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it.

• 1:45:54Karen Kilgariff?

  The, apparently the Los Angeles Lakers.

• 1:45:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Heard of them.

• 1:45:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a team here in our city.

• 1:45:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Heard of it.

• 1:45:59Karen Kilgariff?

  They, there is a guy who last night played in the game of basketball.

• 1:46:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:46:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He spent 10 years in something called the G League.

• 1:46:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:46:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So he basically was like a farm team, is what I'm assuming, for basketball. Spent 10 years playing in it. And last night, played his first, they brought him up to the big leagues, and they, he played his first game as a Los Angeles Laker against Houston. He scored fucking 19 points. People were chanting MVP. He just keeps hitting threes.

• 1:46:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 1:46:34Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to see, there is.

• 1:46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm assuming those are all good things. I don't know.

• 1:46:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it's the best.

• 1:46:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 1:46:39Karen Kilgariff?

  There is a one-minute video that I retweeted onto my Twitter that I started watching and I couldn't stop crying. And this is what I love. Adam Jaskowicz, who tweeted originally, wrote, "Even if you don't enjoy basketball, this is pretty lovely. Dude fought for a decade for this moment, and when it finally happened, it was perfect." He's also a volunteer tutor to kids and seems like a genuinely good person. And in this video, his teammates are up off the bench fucking screaming. It is like one of the most inspirational, beautiful things I've ever seen. And as someone who like, you know, I've lived in Los Angeles for 24 fucking years. I have tried to do things and given up about four different times.

• 1:47:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:47:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And to see a thing like that, where this is a guy that just plugged along and then walked out on the court and nailed it. And he's, he's in his 30s, I think. So, which is, you know, for NBA player, not young. Just fucking incredible. Like, if you get a chance, even if you don't give a shit about sports, look it up. You will fucking love this story.

• 1:47:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:47:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the best.

• 1:47:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 1:47:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It made me so happy.

• 1:47:46Georgia Hardstark?

  You're crying right now.

• 1:47:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I did a light cry. I just fucking really relate. His name, again, Andre Ingram. And he, congratulations, LA Laker Andre Ingram, because the world fucking loves you right now.

• 1:47:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Suddenly, we care about fucking baseball.

• 1:48:02Karen Kilgariff?

  They made us care.

• 1:48:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I ha, I too want to shout out two Instagrams that are making me happy, or like social media things. One is this, I, I follow this fucking body positive model

• 1:48:18Georgia Hardstark?

  on Instagram, name Ally Tate, who posts these photos of herself that are so, she's what one would call a plus-size model, which means she looks like a normal woman.

• 1:48:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:48:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And she posts photos of herself in beautiful clothing. She posts photos of herself in bathing suits. And she has my body. She has a normal woman's body, and she's so positive about it. She posts these photos where she's naked and bending over, and there's rolls. And it's just made me look at my own body and be like, that just because you have those things doesn't mean it's unattractive. And it's, it's been really wonderful, and she seems really sweet. So that's Ally Tate. The other one that's not body positive, but has been making me fucking crack up. And I think it's brand new. It's called Honest Couple.

• 1:49:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes, that's Jake Weisman.

• 1:49:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Jake Weisman created this fucking Instagram account.

• 1:49:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So funny.

• 1:49:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Where he takes fucking, like, stock photos of couples that just look like the most annoying couples you've ever seen in your life, and posts the honest caption of what one of them is really thinking. And I just cannot get enough of it, and I love it so much. So I think he, he needs to, it needs to be a thing.

• 1:49:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's so hilarious. It's like two people, it looks like they're on a hike, and they're taking a selfie of themselves. They're both smiling.

• 1:49:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gorgeous, like, stock photo.

• 1:49:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And then underneath it, it says, "He hasn't made her come in two years."

• 1:49:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, or to say, "He made me cry three minutes after this photo was taken."

• 1:49:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just like, or her friends are the least funny people I've ever met in my life. It's just this, he was like, "I'm sick of these photos of like, perfect couples, and then you find out they broke up a week later."

• 1:49:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course.

• 1:50:00Georgia Hardstark?

  So here's what's really fucking happening.

• 1:50:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so hilarious.

• 1:50:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the best.

• 1:50:03Karen Kilgariff?

  He's so funny, and also watch Corporate on Comedy Central, because he's one of the, one of the stars of it.

• 1:50:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:50:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And a great stand-up comic.

• 1:50:09Georgia Hardstark?

  He is really funny. Oh, Matt Engelbreit's in too, of course. Matt, calm down.

• 1:50:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Matt, you're tall.

• 1:50:15Georgia Hardstark?

  You're tall. You've got it.

• 1:50:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Shut up.

• 1:50:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back, and I love how obsessed we are with basketball.

• 1:50:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing, though. If you get a good, like, underdog story, I, I'll pay attention to any sport, because.

• 1:50:33Georgia Hardstark?

  You love those.

• 1:50:34Karen Kilgariff?

  That's my favorite. And just a quick update about Andre Ingram, which I know you've been waiting on pins and needles.

• 1:50:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:50:41Karen Kilgariff?

  But he did get a little more NBA time after that perfect Lakers debut. He scored 19 points in his first NBA game on April 10th, 2018. Played one more game that season. His full NBA career was brief, but the story didn't disappear. And the NBA still lists that 19-point debut as his career high. He also kept on playing in the G League where he started. So coming in, getting it done in a couple games, and then leaving again, not the worst thing you can do for a professional sports career.

• 1:51:12Georgia Hardstark?

  In a young man's game, too. It gives me hope about whatever skills I don't have yet.

• 1:51:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Getting back to roller derby the way you've always talked about.

• 1:51:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:51:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So this episode was originally titled Robot Grandma. But if we were naming it today, there are just a plethora of choices that we could use. Like, of course, Ready, Okay.

• 1:51:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep, yeah, you must. We could do Steven Hardstark Kill Gareth, which I fucking love.

• 1:51:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is what we would do. Absolutely, hands down.

• 1:51:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 1:51:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Demon Horse, which is what you said I sounded like when I was laughing in my coffee mug.

• 1:51:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Radical Self-immolation. Yes.

• 1:51:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. You know that word that pops into your head when you can't think of?

• 1:51:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You meant radical self-acceptance.

• 1:51:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Self-acceptance, who?

• 1:51:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know what that is. I've never heard of it.

• 1:51:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, we used to speak so freely on this show. God.

• 1:52:02Georgia Hardstark?

  We really did.

• 1:52:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So fun. Well, that's it for this episode of Rewind.

• 1:52:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go and say goodbye from 2018.

• 1:52:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks for listening, you guys.

• 1:52:14Karen Kilgariff?

  God, was this a three fucking hour episode? That was nuts.

• 1:52:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It feels like it. It was a three-can fucking sparkling wine episode. That's how you know.

• 1:52:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia threw half a six-pack of wine and feeling fine.

• 1:52:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Feeling myself.

• 1:52:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Feeling fine. Sink it, Georgia, sink it. That's a basketball cheer. It's all full fucking circle.

• 1:52:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It comes back to fucking cheerleading?

• 1:52:37Karen Kilgariff?

  We always bring it back around for you, the listener. We love you. Stay sexy.

• 1:52:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Oh, Elvis.

• 1:52:48Karen Kilgariff?

  He's right there.

• 1:52:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis, you want a cookie? Good boy.

• 1:52:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:52:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027 for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:53:06Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wisecrack for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:53:22Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:53:25Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:53:29Georgia Hardstark?

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