Matt & Ross Duffer

10 years. 5 seasons. 42 episodes. STRANGER THINGS is done but the conversation continues here with a frank and open conversation with the show's creators, Matt & Ross Duffer. From casting decisions (revealing the first choice for Hopper for the first time) to Steve's near-death, to El's ending, this one covers it all. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  So some things are surprising. That whole like, the internet getting themselves into frenzy over Steve dying. That did result, I don't know if we normally would have done him almost falling off the tower and so on. That was a little bit of, that was us [BLEEP] with the audience, for sure. For sure. Which we don't normally do, but I was like, this is too, this is a golden opportunity. You really want it? No, we can't pass up.

• 1:23Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 1:30Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the pod, we are looking back at Stranger Things, past, present, and future with Matt and Ross Duffer. Thanks guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, on Spotify, on whatever podcast platform you're using. I'm so excited to share this episode. This was a live event we taped just a couple of days ago in Los Angeles with the Duffer Brothers. They don't do a lot of talking, and I'm privileged to say when they do talk, they tend to talk to me. I've had them on the podcast now three times. And this was a really exciting occasion to look back at Stranger Things. Things with a little perspective now, the last time I spoke to them was right as that finale dropped.

• 2:15Josh Horowitz?

  And now there's a few months, so there's a slight amount of distance. And some really, really cool stuff in there for the diehard fans. But before we get to that, quick reminders, as always, patreon.com slash happy sad confused. If you've been thinking about checking out the Patreon and been on the fence, now might be a good time, especially if you like our live events. We've got a really cool June one that we're about to announce with a long time. Happy say confused friends, trust me, that's a good one. We have autographed merch and also if you're an Outlander fan, and I know a lot of folks that have listened or watched me over the years are Outlander fans. Now's a good time to be on the Patreon because we have bonus materials around our couples therapy sequel that we made.

• 2:56Josh Horowitz?

  Finally, years in the making, Sam and Katrina reunited for Couples Therapy and it was a blast. It was one of the reasons I went to Los Angeles in addition to taping some new episodes. Who's a good guest, which is my celebrity dog show, the love of my life. I mean, the love of my life is obviously my dog and my wife, but maybe series wise right now, I'm obsessed with my dog show. So that is, we're into season two production, which is really exciting to say. But yeah, in terms of live events, it was really cool to go back to LA and do one of our, our events at the Fine Arts Theater, which is kind of our LA home away from home. And Matt and Ross Duffer were kind enough to join me for this one. We've never done a live event, so that was different.

• 3:38Josh Horowitz?

  And there are some really good juicy nuggets of information in this. Okay, some stuff they've talked about before, but some stuff they haven't revealed before. David Harbour sent in a video question, which elicited a long, mysterious answer they've never revealed before. So that's an exclusive. There are some really funny anecdotes about the entire cast from David to Winona to Nochnap. I think you guys are going to love this. If you love Stranger Things like I do, and certainly this show is very important to me. I mean, I grew up with all the stuff it kind of paid homage to, and I love the way they mixed it all together and created their own thing and launched so many stars. It's been important to me personally and professionally.

• 4:20Josh Horowitz?

  So it was nice to put a bow on this 10 years of coverage with this great event with Matt and Ross. And my thanks to everybody that came out in LA. It was really great energy in that theater. People dressed up. There were demogorgons. There were folks dressed up as characters. We took some audience questions. We handed out some autographed posters. It was just a good vibe. So thank you again for, if you had a chance to come on out. And if you haven't come to one of our live events, what do you, you're missing a lot. Come on, guys. New York, we do them all the time and check out, again, on Patreon, you can kind of like get a sense of what we're doing coming up. Okay, without any further ado, I'm gonna toss to myself going out on stage in Los Angeles, Fine Arts Theater.

• 5:03Josh Horowitz?

  Enjoy this one. Stranger Things fans, this one's for you. This is me and Matt and Ross Duffer. Enjoy. Hello. Hi, everybody. How's it going? Thanks for coming out. Welcome to the Fine Arts Theater. My name's Josh Horowitz. Welcome to a live taping of my podcast, Happy Sad Confused. Thank you so much for coming out tonight. I appreciate you guys. We usually do these in New York, so it's always a very special treat to come out to LA. And it's always for a very special cause. And I can't think of anything more special than to celebrate 10 years, five seasons, 42 episodes of this pop culture phenomenon that is Stranger Things. Come on.

• 5:45Josh Horowitz?

  It is, uh, it's the show that gave us the demogorgons and David Harbour, Millie Bobby Brown, Sadie Sink, a dozen stars that will be stars with us for some time. And the folks responsible for it seemingly came out of nowhere and they're with us for good now, thankfully. I'm so thrilled they're coming back on the podcast for this live event to look back at this epic contribution. They are the creators. They are the executive producers. They are writers. They are directors. They wear many hats. Tonight, they are guests on Happy Sad Confused. Please give a warm welcome to Matt and Ross Duffer, everybody. Come on out, guys.

• 6:36Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, how you doing?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  We are good, good.

• 6:39Josh Horowitz?

  You've rested up. We were saying before, I feel like I did the last of your interviews for the postmortem, and now you took a break, but you're back for more.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  That's right, that's right. You were the last person we talked to, really. Just when we thought we were out. You dragged us back in.

• 6:55Josh Horowitz?

  There you go, to quote Godfather.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Only for you, Josh.

• 6:57Josh Horowitz?

  I appreciate you guys. Which of your actors can't tell you guys apart at this point? Do they all know who's who at this point?

• 7:04Speaker 02

  It's been 10 years, dude, yes. We did hear from Sadie. She couldn't tell us apart, I guess, for the entire first year.

• 7:13Josh Horowitz?

  Which one?

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Season two, Sadie.

• 7:14Josh Horowitz?

  Sadie.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Sadie could not.

• 7:15Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  She was like 12.

• 7:17Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  She can tell us apart.

• 7:18Josh Horowitz?

  Her eyeballs were still forming.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 7:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:21Josh Horowitz?

  So we have a lot to talk about. When you make, you know, five seasons, 42 episodes, and this epic final season, there's a lot to discuss. Let's start with way back when.

• 7:32Josh Horowitz?

  What was the worst pitch meeting initially for Stranger Things way back when? What sticks in your?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  You're gonna get us in trouble for this.

• 7:38Josh Horowitz?

  Why? Right off the bat?

• 7:40Speaker 02

  For what, like, the company's had passed? You need a, you want a name?

• 7:44Josh Horowitz?

  It's up to you.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  I don't know. Who do you want, who do you want to throw under the bus?

• 7:49Josh Horowitz?

  I'm not trying to get you in trouble. You also don't have to name them.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  They were like, they were like 11, there were, I don't, 10. Ross says I'm exaggerating. Isn't it around 10, 11? It was, it was a full week. We went out with our, one of our producers, Dan Cohen, we just kind of marched around town and were very excited about it. I think, I won't say the worst, the most heartbroken I was, was when FX passed. That's when I thought we were screwed, because we had had a relationship with them, and we had done this show, or helped them get this show across the finish line called Wayward Pines, which was a M.I. Shyamalan show, and so we thought that was our best shot. And when they passed, I was like, that hurt. That deeply hurt. There was another company that really wanted the script, what, you know, Ross and I said, we want to direct.

• 8:34Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  And they said, can we see your movie? We showed them the movie and they said, yeah, you can't direct. So that, that also like... That really hurt.

• 8:43Josh Horowitz?

  Can I show you another movie that I've in direct?

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So those were the two most like, I would say, those were very. And then we were too nerdy for A24. They were so cool. It was just like they didn't even, they weren't even listening. Oh, yeah. A24 was like, they were not interested. I was, um, yeah.

• 9:00Josh Horowitz?

  Of course, like, the, the first casting coup that really helped was getting Winona.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Winona, yeah.

• 9:06Josh Horowitz?

  Winona on board. Um, what do you remember about your first conversations with her? Because was that a tough thing to kind of, first TV for her, really?

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that was the, the biggest thing that she was nervous about, which is how long, um, she was gonna, if it was gonna run multiple seasons. I think had we told her then it was gonna be 10 years, I don't know what she would have said. But she had to sign contractually for, you know, I, I think it was for five seasons, um, or a certain number of years. So I think that was just, she hadn't done it before. So she was mostly nervous about that. But it was, I mostly remember it just being, it's the longest actor meeting we've ever had with anyone. It was at the Chateau, it was about two hours and we just hit it off. And mostly we weren't talking about Joyce or the show. We were just talking about, we were just talking about movies and life. And after that, she said, let's do this.

• 9:56Josh Horowitz?

  That must have been an exciting moment.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  It was huge. Yeah. It was so, so thrilling.

• 10:01Josh Horowitz?

  Um, also, one of the casting coups early on was giving David Harbour, who had obviously a great career going into it, but was a character actor, and this really changed the course of his career. Um, I hit up David. He sent in a video question for you guys.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Oh, boy.

• 10:16Josh Horowitz?

  You ready for this?

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's go.

• 10:18Josh Horowitz?

  All right, let's take a look at what David Harbour sent for the Duffers.

• 10:20Speaker 05

  Hello, Duffer Brothers. Um, my name is David Harbour. Um, I played a character called Chief Jim Hopper on a television show. You guys wrote and directed a bunch of episodes of, called Stranger Things. Um, I have a question.

• 10:39Speaker 05

  Everyone knows that

• 10:43Speaker 05

  every Hollywood actor's big break has come as a result of being second, or third, or fourth, or fifth choice. Now, I'm... The stories have been floating around for years. On sets, we've discussed a little bit of it. I've always run away when it gets too close. Thankfully, I'm not there in the audience, so you can feel free to say anything you want. It's not that anyone's gonna record it and it's gonna go on the internet forever. I would like to know the casting process of Hopper. I'm pretty sure I was second choice, and I don't know who I was second choice to. Maybe I was third choice. Um, but would you please, uh, answer the question of how

• 11:26Speaker 05

  I came to be cast as Chief Hopper and who had to say no to allow me to do that wonderful, incredible role?

• 11:36Speaker 05

  I hope it's going well in there with Horowitz.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  Thank you for this. This is a...

• 11:46Josh Horowitz?

  For the record, I gave him no instructions. That's all Harvard.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Clearly. Um, I think, uh, what, what, I can't believe he wants us to say this. I think, I believe he was, we did go out to someone, uh, prior to Dave. It's someone who'd been, um, less of just a supporting actor. I haven't told him that this is like one of his good friends.

• 12:04Josh Horowitz?

  He, he told me, and I think he's okay with me saying a name. Can I say a name?

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, you, I wanna hear what you have to say.

• 12:11Josh Horowitz?

  Josh Brolin.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, no.

• 12:14Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  No, oh, I'm sorry. Did I seem like I liked Josh Brolin?

• 12:18Josh Horowitz?

  We all was Josh Brolin.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  I wasn't like, I was like, that's not accurate.

• 12:20Josh Horowitz?

  That was Harvard's theory.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  No, no, it was Billy Crudup.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Which is a to- very different.

• 12:27Josh Horowitz?

  Different, different side.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Everything happens for a reason, right? So it was like, once it kinda clicks into place, but yeah, Billy Crudup passed.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  I don't think he was doing much TV at the time. Now he's doing.

• 12:39Josh Horowitz?

  Morning show.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Morning show.

• 12:40Josh Horowitz?

  It all worked out for everybody.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it worked out good for everybody. And then David just, honestly, he just came in and one of our casting directors thought he could be great for the role, but he came in red. He just did one take. We weren't even there. We just saw the tape and it was just, it was, it was so clear instantly. Right. This is Hopper. And we just cast him right then and there. Am I making, I, I feel, in my memory, it was just the scene where Joyce comes to him and says, Will is missing. Was there an additional scene? It's that scene and David is, in classic David, he's wearing a hat down to here. And again, I wasn't there. And then the casting director, and he does the scene and he's great. And our casting director, Carmen, goes, do you want to do one more without the hat? And he goes, no. And then, and then he just walked out and we're like, that's the guy.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  That's Hopper. Hopper'd keep on that hat. Uh, so, yeah. Amazing.

• 13:33Josh Horowitz?

  We'll be right back with more Happy Second Fused.

• 13:39Speaker 00

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• 14:10Speaker 00

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• 14:24Josh Horowitz?

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• 14:42Josh Horowitz?

  So, okay, so that first season when it drops. It really clicked, needless to say. I mean, what was the moment, like when "Justice for Barb" becomes a thing? Like, is that like the moment you're like, oh, this is really resonating in a deep way that most TV shows don't? Like, is that a moment? Or what are the moments early on?

• 15:03Speaker 02

  But it was also strange. We weren't on social media and also we had never made anything that anyone watched before. So it was a very surreal experience and Sean Levy just kept telling me, he's like, "This is not normal. This is not normal." So some of it was just hearing it from people being like, "Trust me, this is something different." And then, yeah, I think the Barb thing for sure. I remember there's a mural of her in Australia that popped up. And when that happened, you know, it was surreal. And then there's, you know, when SNL made fun of us, I thought that was...

• 15:35Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. I felt like they wouldn't do that for something that wasn't somewhat culturally relevant.

• 15:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  So I was like, okay, that's, you know, this is interesting. So, no, it felt really good. And then we just, we moved right into, I mean, the most exciting thing about it for us was, oh, we get to keep telling this story. So we didn't have much time to soak it in. I think a lot of that was happening as we were already working on the season two script. So it's like, it's fun, but also you're just stressed about...

• 16:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Trying to figure out what the hell to do.

• 16:05Josh Horowitz?

  So, early on or later on, Reddit boards, sometimes, always, never? What was your attitude? Have you ever gone into those?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  No, I've waded into the Reddit boards sometimes. It's always, you know, it's fascinating to see how people are responding to things, seeing how people are responding to different characters, laughing when you're seeing how off people's theories are. But, you know, not too often, but sometimes. And sometimes it's mean, that's okay. But I'm not anymore. Like, I've kind of, it's kind of, and I think it's just because we're such a weird space where we're trying, I'm trying to like disconnect from the show. But it's odd. So I feel a little detached from the fandom right now. But I think I just need a break for a second.

• 16:53Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. I mean, along the way, did any fan reactions ever affect you guys in the writer's room? Like, this is what they're responding to? This is what they're not responding to? Or was that, did you decide early on that's going to be a perilous road to go down?

• 17:08Speaker 02

  You really try, once you get into that writer's room, I mean, you soak in, whenever a season comes out, we see what the response is. Yeah. And you soak that in, and then by the, when you get into the writer's room, you try to, you try to block it all out, and just go, what is the story that, that we want to tell? But you take lessons, and sometimes we're surprised by how the audience is responding to things. Oftentimes, we're not, it's stuff that we've loved and found over the course of making a season. Like, we knew, like, the class, you know, Dustin and Steve in season two, we fell in love with them. And then to see the audience fall in love with them too was great, but, so by the time we go into season three, we go, we gotta keep leaning into this. So occasionally, stuff surprises you.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Most of the time, and ideally, it's, we're all, we're on the same page. You can kind of tell as you're make, you generally sort of tell as you're making it, right? So you don't totally know it's gonna work or not work as you're moving into it, and then as it starts to come together. Like, there was a lot of uncertainty, especially, you know, coming from Netflix and stuff about the character of Eddie. We were very confident in it, we were very confident in Joe. And as we started working with Joe, I think, within a month, everyone was like, okay, this is, this is gonna work. But like, you don't, it's a little bit, on the page, we, no, it was, no one was sure. Right. If that, if that was gonna, you know, if Eddie was gonna work. It was very contingent on an actor being able to, to pull it off. So we lucked out with, with Quinn. He was a little old, but that's why we just had to keep saying he just kept failing.

• 18:37Josh Horowitz?

  Now he's a, he's a beetle and a superhero.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Right, now, man.

• 18:40Josh Horowitz?

  It's crazy. Um, okay, so let's talk season five. I mean, season four was ginormous. Season five is, was also gigantic in, in similar respects and in other respects. How would you say, looking back at season five, it was, was it the most challenging season for you? And what, and in what respect would you say it was?

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Um, it's hard, four was so challenging, mostly also because we were shooting during, in COVID. And then we were at, also, it's the one season where we're doing multiple locations, and we went to Lithuania for the Russian stuff, which was just awful timing with COVID. So I don't know if five was harder than that, but five had an element of, there was an emotional component to it, which was not there with four. Four, we were just trying to get through it without people getting sick. And five, it was really, yeah, it's, the, the closer we got to the end, the, the more emotional it was for, for, for us and all the actors.

• 19:38Josh Horowitz?

  So we'll get to, of course, L's end, but before we get to that, what are your personal favorites of the season? Scenes, moments, character arcs? What do you take some satisfaction in as the creators, as the writers?

• 19:54Speaker 02

  I don't know. What do you, I mean, it kind of like, it's weird. I mean, I don't, we don't, I don't look back to, you know, too much. I saw someone talking about this the other day because who was it? I don't remember some interview I was listening to where a writer was talking about the fact that it's hard for him to go back because he just sees all the things he, you know, he wishes he could change because Ross and I are constantly working on it and tweaking it. And then it gets, you know, pulled away to a certain point. So when you go back, it's almost painful.

• 20:21Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  But, um, I don't know. I mean, there's like, um, what do you, what do you think, Ross? Are we talking season five or are we talking? We're talking, oh, season five. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you know, for me, I think, you know, one of the hardest things was the Maxie battle, all that episode four stuff, the climax of that. That was just to make that in terms of a pure sequence. Yeah. Over the course of the show, that was the most complicated to pull off, I think, because it's nighttime, it's kids, there's a bunch of extras and tons of stunts and visual effects. So that pulling that off was one of our prouder moments of season five. And then I think, you know, for us, just the entire code of the last, you know, 40

• 21:02Speaker 02

  minutes of, of, of the show was so meaningful to us just because it was, you know, every scene was really the last scene. We were working with these actors and we were so proud of, of them and everything they brought to every moment in that scene. And, you know, half the time they're not even acting in those moments. It's really, you know, it was really hard for all of us on all those days. And I just, um, so both writing it was very cathartic and then, and then filming it was, it felt like a goodbye and we're really. I think like, I mean, it was hard just because for. You know, it was like, everybody was like, it kept having to be like, it's too early to be crying.

• 21:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Right, so there's like tear continuity issues. But yeah, no, those were, and the only other sequence I would say that I'm really happy with, or particularly happy with, is the Wheeler House attack. Because we've been trying to do a home invasion sequence since season one. So it was like, it was finally, it was very cathartic and exciting for us to finally be able to do that. Because I was looking back at our pitch, because we're working on a pitch now, as we're looking back at our pitch on season one.

• 22:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  And yeah, it had the, it was like an all climax of the Wheeler House, and there's a big attack scene there. And we never, it never made it in. And so it was such a relief to finally do it and do it. A lot of it, and then season two had the upside down bridge exploding. And so there are all these sort of accumulated ideas that we were finally able to do. I think we did, like, I think we ran out of fucking ideas. I think we did, I think we did all of our ideas, most of them. There's not too many lingering ideas.

• 22:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  As it relates to Hawkins and the upside down. Like, I think we, we have a lot more ideas, but I think we got all of that. I think we got everything out of our system.

• 22:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  In that final season.

• 22:46Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, and then on, from character perspectives, I mean, we can talk about all of them, but we'll focus on a few. I mean, obviously a huge season for Will. And, and in terms of the powers, but obviously the coming out was something that you guys were talking about for a while. Talk to me a little bit about how that evolved, and how far that back, that went? And then how it turned into the scene that it became?

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, well, we were originally, we're gonna, it was gonna happen in, in season four. And what we realized is we got to those layer episodes that we just, there hadn't been, we hadn't given it enough time and space. And we hadn't, we hadn't earned it. Which is, when I'm so glad that we didn't end up doing it on, in, in season four. Because it gave us much more of a runway. So when we built season five, that was one of the first things we were talking about. Is Will bringing the story full circle, since he was the one that was, you know, first taken and really seeing him, you know, come of age over the course of the season. And then, of course, timing the powers is, is great, and also something we'd been building to for a while.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  So to do those at the same time was, was one of the moments, once we realized that, that this season for us at least, clicked into place.

• 24:01Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, as you guys well know, there was a, you know, a segment of the fandom that really like grafted onto the Will and Mike relationship and read into, you know, wanted to see a reciprocated kind of relationship. Was that even ever discussed or was, was it just not, it didn't make sense narratively? It just wasn't in the cards from the beginning?

• 24:19Speaker 02

  No, I mean, no, it was never, never in the cards. I mean, so, I mean, we just wanted, I mean, the, the whole thing with the final season was like, let's be, you know, we wanted to focus on being as truthful as we could to the characters that we, you know, created from the beginning and do right by them and do right by the actors. And so like, the big litmus test for us and the scariest thing for us was kind of, you know, writing and sharing this final season, the final storyline with the actors, because the only people who are closer to these characters are as close as we are to the characters of the actors. They've been living and breathing with, breathing them for, for 10 years. And I was like, this has to work for them. This has to resonate with them. And luckily that, yeah.

• 25:02Josh Horowitz?

  Whose malicious idea was it? The cut to black at Steve's fake out death? Was that scripted as such? Was it in the edit? You're like, we gotta cut to black here for a few seconds or what?

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I think that it was. It was in the edit. What's interesting, the Steve thing was actually, we did, we did half, a half day of reshoots, which we've actually never done on Stranger Things before. It was just like little tiny miscellaneous things that we wanted to do. But the main reason we wanted to go back is because Steve's near death just wasn't, it wasn't shot like that in a slow motion way. It all happened really fast. And the edit, it was just, it's so dark that it was, it just, the moment wasn't going back. So then we went back with Joe Keery and we just built like a tiny, like, three foot slab of the tower because we didn't have money to rebuild it. And we just did that moment where he just dropped and then we just milked it even more in the, in the edit, yeah.

• 25:57Josh Horowitz?

  Jamie Campbell Bowers' performance, unbelievable in the season throughout.

• 26:04Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, how much was in the script to convey the ambiguity, the conflict that he is experiencing, especially as that that final episode progresses in the cave? And how much was it just discussing on the set of how much he should show on his face? I'm just curious how we arrived to getting that feeling from him.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  I mean, Jamie's just, you know, he's unbelievable. I mean, he's like one of the most sort of devoted actors. I mean, he, he spends so long just on his own, mostly, it's mostly on his own. And I don't know what he's doing all the time, but he's really, he spends a lot of time getting into the backstory, trying to understand the character. I think the most difficult thing for him in this particular season was figuring out the Mr. What's-a-character, figuring out, understanding why he was behaving that way, why he was there. And once he locked into that, it was really exciting to see that. But in terms of also the backstory, I remember it really, I mean, we've talked to him a lot about it in terms of that, you know, but him, I remember after, we saw him after he'd saw

• 27:08Speaker 02

  the play, the first Shadow, and that also gave him a lot more understanding of where we were headed on this final season, and what Henry was like as a kid. And I think that really unlocked things for him in a big way.

• 27:20Josh Horowitz?

  So rank these Stranger Things villains from most sympathetic to most evil. Vecna, Demogorgon, Mindflayer, Dr. Brenner. Who do you have the most sympathy for? Who's the most objectively evil?

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Well, Mindflayer's gotta be the most evil right there. Number one, for sure. Where do you put Brenner?

• 27:47Speaker 02

  And Demogorgon is hard because it's an, you know. No, Demogorgon's at the bottom. It's not his, it's just.

• 27:52Josh Horowitz?

  It's just an instrument.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not, it's like an animal, it's like a lion, like, what are you gonna do?

• 27:58Josh Horowitz?

  We have it on record, he's defending the Demogorgon's actions.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  I'm defending, well, you're putting, you're putting a bunch of bad people together.

• 28:04Josh Horowitz?

  That's fair.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  You know?

• 28:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  I don't wanna hang out with a Demogorgon, but.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Uh, probably, I would put, um, I'd put Vecnet two and I'd put Brenner three and Dimmer Boran four. That's what I would do.

• 28:18Josh Horowitz?

  So, let's talk more about that, the final, like, forty-five, forty minutes, the, the epilogue, which was something you had planned. I mean, I remember when we did the postmortem on, on season four, everything you talked about came to fruition, like, in terms of the structure of that final episode. Um, was there anything you didn't have time for? Like, was there a character that you contemplated showing where they were those eighteen months later that you ended up cutting, or did you get to everything you wanted?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't think so. I don't, because I think it was very, it was very important. That coda was very important to us. I remember when we started working on season five, that was where we started. So, we spent a long time on that, and I don't think we cut anything. No, because it was, it was really just making sure, though, every moment, um, in there, because we, we knew we only, we couldn't do a two-hour, like, wrap-up coda. So, it's just, every moment actually becomes very precious there, that we wanted to be spending time with the characters that we've spent, you know, all these seasons with and time with, and we just wanted to make sure to do right by them in each of those scenes. So, we were, we were very careful as, as we wrote then. I think exactly as it was outlined is how it was ultimately written.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  I mean, it's already quite long. I mean, I guess we could have kept going.

• 29:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  But, uh, no, we, we, you know, we landed on some- The Lord of the Rings, it fades out and it fades back in and fades out.

• 29:40Josh Horowitz?

  I did the math. The Lord of the Rings apparently was a twenty-seven minutes.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  I know. We did the math, too, and we're like, fuck, is this okay? It's forty minutes, all right?

• 29:49Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I mean, El has a couple of amazing, kind of, goodbye scenes. Let's, let's talk about the, the El Hopper goodbye, that exchange, that, they're both so great in that scene. Um, and it's-

• 30:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, Millie saying, you know, she's not Sarah, just lands like a jackhammer. What do you remember of writing it and of watching them perform that final scene between the two of them?

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Oh, man, you know, it's that one also is something we've been building to for a very long time. Obviously, we, I remember even after season one going, you know, realizing how talented and amazing Millie was and how talented and amazing David was and going, what if we just put them together? That's really what led to, you know, their, their arc in, you know, season two and season three. And, and so just to get to that moment and to do right by them. But they're both so incredible and they, they've, they've been, you know, working together for so long that, you know, they can, they just, they just brought it. Yeah, don't worry, it wasn't, it was one of those scenes that just sort of fell into place. It wasn't a struggle to get. And then it was always good in the edit.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  And then I thought in particular, our composers, Michael and Kyle, who'd never explore anything beyond synth, I mean, they're, they're very, they're synth composers. And then they started to play around with adding real piano and some orchestra. And it was really exciting and I thought that took it, took it to a whole new level. So, yeah, we're really happy with how that turned out. Right, and it's the, the theme, yeah, the 11 theme. The 11. Sort of, yeah, with instrumental. So we only do instrumental very rarely, but we do it on where it feels like the moment really deserves and earns it. And it's, we don't want it to distract from the rest of the soundscape, but we, the hoping that just those were those few special moments

• 31:37Speaker 02

  that the audience realizes this is something a little bit different.

• 31:41Josh Horowitz?

  For Mike and Elle's scene, how much of the, you kind of alluded to this before, how much of the tears are actually them crying, the actors crying versus their characters crying in that scene, you think?

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Who knows?

• 31:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  I mean, it was, it was like, it was a, um, no, it was a very emotional day. I mean, that was very emotional, um, uh, to shoot out for both of those actors. And we did a lot. That scene, we did shoot, um, quite a bit. So I think it was a little bit. And it wasn't Millie's last scene, but it was really her last big, big scene. Otherwise, it was like her standing and then, you know, where she gets wiped away and stuff. But in terms of interacting with another actor, um, that was the last one. So I remember her being, um, really emotional and just coming in and, I mean, delivering it take after take. Yeah, and I mean, but it wasn't, it felt very raw and real. Some, you know, I, I think the biggest struggle in the edit was making sure that continuity was gonna be okay.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Because, you know, Millie or Finn, they were doing, different stuff was kind of occurring every time. Because it felt so, it felt so real, right? There was nothing very choreographed about the whole thing, which I really liked. So that was the, that was the only struggle was making sure everything matched okay, um, in the edit. But once we figured that out, um, it was great. And then we added Prince and that was it, yeah.

• 33:00Josh Horowitz?

  When in doubt, add Prince if you can. Uh, at what point do you think Elle knows that sacrifice is inevitable in your, in your head? When do you think she makes that decision?

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Um, God, like the, the exact particular moment?

• 33:20Speaker 02

  I mean, Colleen gets to her.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  I think the, the moment is, it was not at the, it's not when she really, really decides. Maybe it's at the end of seven in that truck. Yeah, it's when she looks at Colleen in the truck is sort of when that decision was made. And then what, you know, in terms of, and then also her final moment with Colleen, you know, um, depending on what you believe her fate is. That was when the moment would switch right there and, uh, when Colleen's dying.

• 33:51Josh Horowitz?

  We'll get to that, don't worry.

• 33:55Josh Horowitz?

  So when did you first decide on Elle's sacrifice, this ending? And when did you start, when did you tell Millie about it?

• 34:04Speaker 02

  I can't remember when we told Millie, do you remember Matt? This ending has been then planned though for many years.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  I mean, Millie's incredible in the sense that even by night, like she figures out just by the way, like she's the most emotionally intelligent person I know. So she can pick up on the tiniest clues. So she senses that you're writing something before you've even written it. So she knows what we're thinking and she had a sense of what was coming. And I didn't even say anything. She's like, she's gonna die, she's gonna die. And I was like, no, that's not, I'm not saying that. And then she just started to cry. So she, yeah, she's very emotionally sensitive. She's very, very connected to Elle. But it's hard to know exactly the moment that we told her. I think it was the, she didn't know till for sure in terms of what happened to her until the table read, or at

• 34:59Speaker 02

  least in terms of what's presented in the As she's reading it in the moment. Yeah, no one knew. We tried as much as possible withhold, as much as we could from them before that table read because we just wanted to see how it, you know, played in real time in front of them all to make sure that worked.

• 35:16Josh Horowitz?

  More Happy, Say Confused coming up.

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• 36:20Josh Horowitz?

  If symptoms persist.

• 36:25Josh Horowitz?

  So Mike asks his friends at the end if they believe, and they all believe, um, that story he tells. So who in the audience believes L? Let's, let's do, let's do clap, clap if L, L was out there, L was still alive. Do we think so?

• 36:46Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 36:49Josh Horowitz?

  Now what's here? The opposing view, L didn't make it, L sacrificed, then it's real.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Okay. That's interesting.

• 36:57Josh Horowitz?

  What do you make of that?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that, yeah, that's interesting. That's, that's all, that's all that I'll say. It's been, I will say it's funny that like so many of the actors are going out saying they don't believe. I'm like, what are you talking about?

• 37:10Josh Horowitz?

  Sadie has said.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Sadie, Caleb.

• 37:12Josh Horowitz?

  Gaden, I believe also has doubted said that she's.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  They've never said that to me. I gotta talk to them.

• 37:19Josh Horowitz?

  So you're saying they're wrong, you're saying they're wrong?

• 37:21Speaker 02

  No, I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just like, it's just interesting that they've, they all concluded that without talking to us. Because that's, that's not, but that's not what the act, the characters believe.

• 37:31Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  I mean, they're good actors.

• 37:32Josh Horowitz?

  Their own, yeah.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, so I don't know what's going on.

• 37:36Josh Horowitz?

  There is a curious sound effect when the fade, the fade to black for the 18 months later, we hear what sounds perhaps like a heartbeat, which would many have interpreted as L still being alive.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't read it. This is why I haven't been on Reddit in a while, so I didn't know this was a. No, no, it is, it is written, this script that is, is supposed to sound like a heartbeat, but it's actually just like, what do you call it? The brick.

• 37:59Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  So I think it's.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  That is what it, that's what it is. It's just distorted. But yeah, you could interpret it as that. I mean, it was meant to be interpreted as that potentially.

• 38:08Josh Horowitz?

  Do you ima, it took David Chase like 20 years to finally say what actually happened at the end of Sopranos. Is that the timeline we're looking at? Like, do we have to talk in 20 years?

• 38:17Speaker 02

  If we're talking to you in 20 years.

• 38:19Josh Horowitz?

  What does that mean?

• 38:21Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't, about Stranger Things in 20 years. I, I mean, I hope so. I hope people still care. That would be great. And then I'll, then I'll say everything, yeah.

• 38:28Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  At that point.

• 38:29Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, 20 years from now.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  20 years from now. That's right.

• 38:33Josh Horowitz?

  An exclusive unhappy second fuse if I'm still alive.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 38:36Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, my god. All right, so the the actual final scene. Again, another hugely emotional goodbye to childhood. Truly, and a transitional moment for for the kids, now adults. How much of that was fully baked and how, again, how far back does that go?

• 38:54Speaker 02

  That goes back a long way. I mean, it's hard to like, it's weird. My memory is so hazy because it's been 10 years in terms of when we had that idea. But I think it's been that's been for a while. There's an inevitability about it. You know, in terms of who exactly was going to be there was up in the air, but.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  You know, we knew for a long time that that's how the show needed to end. It needed to be a book in there and it needed them. It needed to be them saying goodbye to their childhood.

• 39:21Josh Horowitz?

  But the addition of of the new generation, was that something that like Holly coming down?

• 39:25Speaker 02

  That was new. Yeah. That was sort of discovered at the early on on Breaking, season five. That was a new addition. And then I think it was a later addition when we went. Mike, the flash forwards where we saw people in the future, that was that was a later addition. But everything else had been planned for, yeah, many years.

• 39:43Josh Horowitz?

  Was. So the finale obviously got a brief theatrical run. Which made, I mean, it did very well for Netflix, by the way. Like, I think it was 25 plus million in that very brief showing like. Had you been, were there other permutations of like showing more in theaters? More of this season, earlier seasons, did you come close? Because I know this is something you've wanted for a while, right?

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just now, we really pushed for the finale because it just it made the most amount of sense. Because you want people to be experiencing it for the first time, not like, I'm going to rewatch these episodes. And so because the episodes were never week to week. And now they were never on their own, other than the finale. It was the first episode we ever did its own drop. So that was really, it wouldn't have made sense, as cool as it would have been to show the other episodes. But it was an incredible experience, just seeing it with seeing with fans, seeing them react in real time. We loved it. It was really dream. But it is like the whole point of the theater and the communal experience. Is experiencing something together for the first time and reacting. So this is the first time it made a lot of sense.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  And I think there's a little bit of misconception that that it was a fight with Netflix. I mean Netflix, they they were, it took a day, like, I think, from when we pitched the idea. I mean, the idea did come from us, but they were very supportive of it. So that was, we couldn't believe it. We were surprised, but we're very excited about it. And it was, it was a ton of fun. I'll never forget that night. And the cut to black with Steve worked as as antiz as we had hoped it would work.

• 41:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, definitely. So it comes out, what do the text groups, the WhatsApp groups, do they lie dormant? Or are they active? Where are you at in terms of communicating with the cast?

• 41:25Speaker 02

  The the group chats that we're involved in are, they were very active for, you know, early on in the show. We were all morning in, and I think it really helped us all to talk, talk to each other and talk through it. And now we're, you know, we're still in touch and seeing people whenever we can and whenever we go to New York. We see everyone, so everyone seems to be doing great. And I think it's just a family. And so whenever someone's in LA or we're in New York, we we see each other. And it's hopefully that continues for many, many years.

• 41:56Josh Horowitz?

  Do you feel like you, I mean, it's only been a few months. Like, are you still kind of in it? Like, where are your heads at right now? I mean, obviously, there are other Stranger Things projects going. There's the animated show, there's a spin off, etc., the Broadway show. But I don't know, do you feel a remove yet from the experience?

• 42:13Speaker 02

  It's it's been weird, honestly. I mean, not, not, not really, not totally. I mean, it's just, it was too long. It's like, it feels like a, I don't know how to even describe it to people. It's like, it is, it's, some days you're fine, and then some days it feels really sad. I think it was really, and I think about it, that when we we ended production was incredibly emotional, incredibly sad, because you're kind of, that feels like, okay, this is the last time we're going to be with this group of people. And now it's sort of setting in that we're not going to be with this, you know, we're not going to be spending time even in our heads in this world or with these characters anymore. And so that's really still, I think, sinking in for us. So, you know, I'd love to be like, oh, it's really exciting.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  We get to go do new stuff, which I am very excited about. And hopefully, you know, fall in love with new characters and new worlds. But there is, it's sad, man, it's sad. And the spinoff, you know, it's very early. I mean, who knows? But it's, you know, it's very exciting, but it's definitely, it's totally new characters, totally different. So it is really, you know, it's gonna take us a while, I think, to... And I don't think, well, I don't think they'll ever leave us, because we've been with these Hawkins and these characters for so long. So I think they'll always be a part of us, but at some point, I will be less sad about it, hopefully.

• 43:30Josh Horowitz?

  This is a celebration tonight. No tears tonight. Where is the spinoff at? Okay, when last we spoke, you were, you were going off right after the finale to work on the spinoff. Is there a script? Is there a show bible? Is there casting? Where are we at?

• 43:44Speaker 02

  We're out to Billy Crudup. We'll see.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Fingers crossed. Fingers fucking crossed. Come on, Crudup. You fucked up. Last time.

• 43:59Josh Horowitz?

  What can we say?

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Uh, we're, I don't know what we're, I don't know what we're, I'm gonna get in trouble. I don't know, we're not... We can't say anything.

• 44:07Josh Horowitz?

  We can't say anything.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Honestly, I don't think we say anything. I think, the only thing I will say that won't get us in trouble is that we're just, I think we're really trying not... God, there's so much I wish I could say. No, I know, I know, no. No, last time I even mentioned it, I got, I got like, in trouble.

• 44:22Josh Horowitz?

  Ted called you?

• 44:23Speaker 02

  I mean, trouble, like, they just, no, Ted did not. I didn't get in that much trouble, but... I know, I think we're just, we're trying, we're being very careful. We don't wanna rush it. We don't want it to be anything but excellent. And, um, so, we're...

• 44:38Josh Horowitz?

  Have you hired showrunners for it? Is there a...

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Dude, I don't know, maybe.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 44:43Josh Horowitz?

  That's a yes.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Maybe. It's moving. I mean, it's moving. It's gonna, I think it's gonna happen, but it would just, you know, we're just, like I said, trying not to rush it. We're trying, no one wants to make it just to make it. No one wants to just do it to continue Stranger Things. Like, it has to be awesome, or forget it. That's sort of everybody's mentality about it, but I think everyone's coming out from the right space.

• 45:05Josh Horowitz?

  Would have Stranger Things in the title?

• 45:08Speaker 02

  I, these are great questions. Thank you. These are great, great questions.

• 45:15Josh Horowitz?

  It's not an anthology show. It's a set group of characters.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  More good questions, Josh. No, no, it's not an anthology show. Sorry.

• 45:24Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough.

• 45:26Josh Horowitz?

  I got something. Not really. But further extensions, obviously, I believe the animated show has been greenlit for another season. Yes, we know that.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes, yes. So that'll come out and then soon. Yeah, yeah. Because these things, the animated stuff takes so long, though. So it's been in the works for a long time. Yeah.

• 45:44Josh Horowitz?

  So, okay, some miscellaneous kind of mosts, favorites. What's the most you ever cried watching a scene being filmed or in the edit? What scene broke you, just as human beings?

• 45:57Speaker 02

  We don't usually cry. I mean, the last scene of the show fucks me up. Every, every time. I just can't. Because it's not even just the, I mean, it's the scene itself. It's seeing Finn. I mean, all these actors are really crying. That's real crying. Seeing Finn break gets me every time. And it was the last day. It was the last day we ever filmed the show. So I always connected to that. So, yeah, that one's hard to watch for me. I remember that shot. It was one of the last shots we did, like, and it's pushing it on Finn as he's watching Holly and her friends down below. And Finn, and it was all the cast had come out, you know, Charlie and Matt and Joe, everyone was there to support it. And they were so, we were all just crowded around the monitor.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  And Finn just, like, immediately, take one, just nailed it. And that, that I remember. We were all getting teary-eyed because we were so proud of him. And also, we knew that it, that it worked. And I was being, that really hit me hard, yeah.

• 46:54Josh Horowitz?

  One scene, one episode, you could get a second shot at? Is there anything?

• 47:01Speaker 02

  One scene, one episode?

• 47:03Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, either or.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Either or. Well, you know what episode I would love another shot at? The 207. Yeah, I would do that. I would do that again.

• 47:13Josh Horowitz?

  What would you do differently?

• 47:15Speaker 02

  What I do? Well, I think what I would do... First of all, let me just clear up some bullshit out on the internet. There's so much bullshit.

• 47:24Josh Horowitz?

  We're gonna be here awhile.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  We'd be here all day. But that was ne- it was never designed as like a spinoff shoot. That was, that's bullshit. That's not true. Um, that's gross. We would not do that. Like, so it was, no, but I think the mistake was this idea of a bottle episode. Like, I think if we had threaded it in, or get more organically throughout the, um, season, it would have worked. So it wasn't anybody's fault. It was, um, except ours. Like, I think, I think I just would have approached how we integrated Kali differently. And we were so folk, Matt and I got so drawn into getting those last two episodes of, of season two, um, written and, and prepping them to, cause we were directing them.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  So that, it just got, it just got lost in the shuffle. And in normal cases, again, we don't, this half day of reshoots is, you know, the most reshooting we've ever done. Um, so, and especially season two, we were racing, you know, it's, it's the only season that came out in like an appropriate amount of time, as you know.

• 48:24Josh Horowitz?

  So were there any other, had that been received well, came out more to your satisfaction, would you have done other bottle episodes? Did you have other ideas for other episodes?

• 48:33Speaker 02

  I don't know. It's a good question. I mean, we weren't, we weren't happy. So I don't, I don't, I don't.

• 48:38Josh Horowitz?

  You knew in your bones even before the reception that it didn't quite.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it became, it was hit harder than I thought, you know, I, than I was expecting. But no, it's like, you're usually not, um, we weren't like totally surprised by that. But no, I don't thi- I don't think it lit, the show lends itself well to a bottle episode. I think that was the lesson, but I think, but, but I'm still ha- cause I still remember coming in with the writers when we were on season three and we were all a little bummed about it. Cause we're like, this is, it feels like so many people are talking about this 40 minutes and we did, you know, eight hours, but I think, um, But it kind of emboldened us because we were trying, we were doing a big swing and we knew it was a risk. Anytime you take a big swing, it's a risk. And we all sat down and said, we gotta just keep, we can't be afraid now.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Because then the show is, no matter what we do, it's gonna be, it'll just be stale. It'll be like rinse and repeat. So, and then we went and, you know, season three is a crazy season. We just were like, let's just, let's explode some rats and, you know, whatever.

• 49:35Josh Horowitz?

  It's good you learned the right lessons. You could have gotten more conservative.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we could have just gone back and tried to remake season one, basically. But instead, we were just like, let's keep pushing the show and see what, and it's not all gonna work, but let's see what works and doesn't go from there.

• 49:50Josh Horowitz?

  What's your favorite death in the course of the show?

• 49:53Speaker 02

  Oh, my favorite death?

• 49:56Speaker 02

  I really like Bob's death.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Because it's so brutal.

• 50:01Josh Horowitz?

  Poor Bob.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  I know.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  I, yeah, I think, I think. Yeah, Bob's is good. I like Alexi's death.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Mike is a hard. I mean, Mike is a, yeah, yeah. This feels wrong. I just like, this feels wrong. I don't like it.

• 50:19Josh Horowitz?

  No, we're just saying it was executed well and it should make them say aww. That's the whole idea.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Right. Just brilliantly written and directed. Although I, I will say, yeah.

• 50:31Josh Horowitz?

  I think you could have killed Steve. It would have made them all just, you know.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Oh my god. I don't know where, I actually don't know where that came from. So some things are surprising. That whole like, the, the, the internet getting themselves into frenzy over Joe dying. That did, or Steve dying, that did result, I don't know if we normally would have done him almost falling off the tower and dying.

• 50:49Josh Horowitz?

  So that's, that is.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  That was a little bit of, that was us fucking with the audience, for sure. For sure. Which we don't normally do, but I was like, this is too, this is a golden opportunity.

• 51:00Josh Horowitz?

  You really want it?

• 51:01Speaker 02

  No, we can't pass up. The Alexi, Alexi surprise, I did not think Alexi was gonna pop in the way that he did. That was surprising. Unlike Eddie where I thought he would. I was like, I was surprised by the Alexi thing. So it's always fun putting it out and not, and seeing stuff like that happen.

• 51:15Josh Horowitz?

  This is a tough one. Favorite relationship to write for?

• 51:18Speaker 02

  Oh, if, like a romantic or non-romantic relationship?

• 51:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, romantic.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  Well, I'm gonna say bromance with Dustin and Steve. That's what I think of all things I'm gonna miss. I think that would be, that's what I, in a lot of ways, I want to miss that. In terms of romantic, I always liked writing the Joyce, Joyce Hopper scenes. I liked Lucas and Max because Lucas and Max, like, that's so sweet. See, I give it the better. I guess he wins that. Fuck, yes.

• 51:45Josh Horowitz?

  Sorry, Jopper loses.

• 51:49Josh Horowitz?

  No, we love that. We love that.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  They're so sweet and Caleb and Sadie are so sweet together. So I just, it's fun to write that.

• 51:56Josh Horowitz?

  And is that something, again, like, so much of it, it's in the writing, but then you see them connect on set. You see what?

• 52:01Speaker 02

  You don't know it's gonna, yeah, you don't know if it's gonna work or not.

• 52:03Josh Horowitz?

  And you saw that immediately when they started?

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I saw that, um, not, I wouldn't say immediately.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  It's so funny, like, boys that age interacting with girls. Like, they don't know what they're doing and they're idiots.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  And then they, it was actually, it was not our episode, it was episode six of season two. And it was a scene that Andrew Stanton directed of them. It was, it was Caleb and Sadie up on the bus at night before, waiting for the Demodogs to come out. And I, you know, when we saw that, um, cut together, I think actually Andrew put E.T. music over it. But it was so sweet and I was like, okay, this works. Thank God. But it works.

• 52:41Josh Horowitz?

  And what was unique about being on set for a Harbor, Winona scene? It must have, their energies must have been fascinating to watch.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. But they, they, even though their, their acting styles are so different, they both respect each other so much. And they've grown so close over the years that whenever, whenever they're on set, I mean, and they're the, they're the pros. And, you know, they've been at this for a very long time. And so whenever they're on set, um, they just fall right into place and right into character. It's, it's always a joy to watch.

• 53:12Josh Horowitz?

  Who's among your young cast, as they kind of grew up, who, who became the one that asked the most questions?

• 53:18Speaker 02

  That's Noah. Noah asks a lot of questions, um, which I like. I like being asked a lot. I don't, I don't, you know, it's, it's good. I mean, he wants to be, especially, like, you know, I was really proud of Noah this last season. He really put all of himself into it and he prepared a lot. And then on the day, he was just very focused and very determined to get it right. And he, it became, it felt very collaborative. So we spent a lot of time with Noah. He would come behind the monitor. He would look at the takes. He would just, he just wanted to make sure he. Got it just right and we had a really good experience with him.

• 53:56Josh Horowitz?

  When did he get into the most trouble for spilling something or almost spilling something with you guys?

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I mean Noah's been trouble for as long as I've known him. No, he's like, no, it's so funny. I'll tell this one story. I don't know if we're gonna get in trouble for this, but like he, well, he's, he almost kills himself constantly, right? I don't know how this kid is alive.

• 54:20Josh Horowitz?

  Just

• 54:20Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? If you go, if you like, when he's a little kid, you're like, don't step on that grate. You could fall. He then jumps on the grate, right? Like, that's the kind of kid that Noah is to the point where, I don't know if you're in season five, it's like there's an electrical shed. It's not very high up this electrical shed. And so him and Maya are up there. They're talking. That's where they fry the demogorgon. And I go out there, Noah and Maya are both wired so that they, if they fall, the wire will catch them. I'm like, why would they, why are they wired? I mean, it's just like, it's not a very low, it's a pretty low building. And they're like, well, we don't trust Noah. Like, he might fall off the building.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  I'm like, he's not an idiot. He's like a 23 year old adult. He's not gonna walk off the building. They're like, well, for safety reasons, we can't do it. And because he has to be wired, we have to then wire Maya because otherwise that's weird.

• 55:11Josh Horowitz?

  That's gonna look

• 55:12Speaker 02

  And I'm like, it cost us so much money to erase these wires. That's how little the stunt team trusted Noah. Wow. I don't think he knows this, so I'm so sorry, Noah.

• 55:25Josh Horowitz?

  We're saving you from yourself.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  I'm so sorry, Noah.

• 55:28Josh Horowitz?

  I mean,

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:30Josh Horowitz?

  That's sweet in a way, but also alarming.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  It's sweet. I'm just glad I wasn't his real father, right?

• 55:36Josh Horowitz?

  True.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. All right. We have some wonderful questions you guys submitted. I'm gonna read a few. Boris asks, before Stranger Things became famous, was there ever a moment where people doubted it? We kind of alluded to that, but what made you keep believing in it anyway? What, did you have a certitude about it? Like this was the one that's felt?

• 55:54Speaker 02

  We did, we felt, we believed in it so, so much. I, you know, it was, for us, it was the favorite, our favorite thing that we had, we had ever written in. But that, our faith in it started to, to, you know, fall apart a little bit as we just kept getting rejected over and over again. And people just, the stuff that we loved about it, they just didn't seem to understand. Whether it was the fact that it was starring kids, but it wasn't a show designed for kids, the sort of Stephen King Spielberg mashup. This is stuff that we're, we thought it just sounded so cool. And you, when you get those blank, you know, 824 stares, you're like, I don't know. I love her just hammering 824. I like, I really like 824's movies.

• 56:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right. I bet Billy Crudup likes working with them too. Good luck with that, Billy.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  But then, yes, the doubt creeps in at a, at a certain point. And then we just got, we got sad because we thought, you know, this thing was never gonna be made or see the light of day. So.

• 56:51Josh Horowitz?

  Looking back, what would you tell yourself before season one started?

• 56:57Speaker 02

  It probably would be, I think, I wouldn't tell myself anything because I think it would have, I think it was good to go in with that level of sort of anxiety that we had and the pressure that we had. But also, we were very naive and kind of didn't know what we were doing. But I think that added to, I don't know, it feels very sort of pure and innocent because of where we were in that, where we were in that period of time in our lives. And so I think, I think it would be, I mean, it worked out. So I think it would be a bad idea to tell myself anything.

• 57:31Josh Horowitz?

  This is an important one. If scoops were real, what would your choice of ice cream flavor be?

• 57:39Speaker 02

  I don't remember the scoop flavors. But yeah, we don't have to abide by whatever the scoop flavors were.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm not like a fancy ice cream guy. I just want like, I just want like-

• 57:49Josh Horowitz?

  You can be a basic vanilla guy, you're good.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  Cookie dough, man. Like, just something like, mm.

• 57:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  Solid. I don't wanna, I don't, I don't like when you put too much shit, um, in your ice cream.

• 58:03Josh Horowitz?

  When you see like, Joe officiating a wedding in his Scoops Ahoy garb, you're like, that's-

• 58:11Speaker 02

  Oh, that was amazing. Yeah, that was amazing. And that's a re- He was, he was, he was not expecting that to get out, though. I know, he's like, come on, man.

• 58:19Josh Horowitz?

  How could he? I mean, that's a-

• 58:20Speaker 02

  I know, I'm like Joe, seriously. But he called us, he's like, can I get the real Scoops outfit? And I was like, when is this wedding? He's like, two days? I was like, I don't know where that is.

• 58:29Josh Horowitz?

  You just keep it on hand for-

• 58:30Speaker 02

  Crazy. Give me a little advance warning, but Amy, Paris, our costume designer, is amazing, and she found it and got it, Tim.

• 58:37Josh Horowitz?

  What keepsakes do you have, uh, in your respective homes? What do you have as stuff you still have on set or can't?

• 58:44Speaker 02

  We have a lot of sign, we have an office, and so we, we brought, for the office, we have a lot of signs. Like, we have Benny's Burger sign. What other signs we have? Uh, we have the Family Video- Family Video. That's not up, yeah. We have the Palace Arcade sign. Cause we're like, signs are cool. And then we have the, I have, in our office, we have the She- Eddie's Shield. The one, I mean, Dustin and Steve use it later. I mean, a lot of this cool stuff, we were just told, like, this stuff is going to, like, evaporate at a certain point. Like, we wanted to bring the demo around. My favorite thing is like a giant, we have a giant, uh, Eleven Funko. Uh, how much does she weigh? Like, 5,000 pounds or something. Like, something fucking insane.

• 59:24Josh Horowitz?

  Like, human size? Like, what's-

• 59:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, oh, it's the, much bigger than a normal human. Yeah, it's massive. You can, you can come to our office and check it out.

• 59:31Josh Horowitz?

  I'll take you up.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  Um, but yeah, it's, it's- We're never getting it down there. But most of the good stuff, honestly, we gave to the, we gave to the cast. Cause I felt they should have that.

• 59:39Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, Gavin would like to know what villains inspired Vecna's iconic look.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  Um, we talked a lot about Pinhead- We talked a lot about Freddy Krueger. I think those were probably the the two biggest influences on on Vecna.

• 59:55Josh Horowitz?

  Did you ever consider a new love interest for Will since there were 18 months between the time jump? I mean, you allude to him, you know, exploring his life a little bit more in that brief moment. But was that kind of what you wanted to to show in that moment?

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  I I think it's maybe at some early point it was discussed, but it was we realized that it was, um, once we decided, you know, to put him on track with with, um, with Maya, with Robin, it felt like we didn't want some external character that we didn't know to affect Will's journey. It's it felt like it needed to be more internal and about himself than some some random character that we threw in.

• 1:00:36Josh Horowitz?

  What made you choose Prince to finalize the series music wise?

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  There was a lot of debate about that. We were trying to figure out it was really challenging because it wasn't it was not just looking for, you know, a song that we really liked that would be right like it had to it had to work emotionally, but it also had to be because of the way the sort of bomb device worked, you know, it had to be the the last song on the A side of vinyl.

• 1:01:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  And then the the first song on that had to work for the prior moment, which had to feel like upbeat and energetic. So that after a lot of work looking like Purple Rain was the one that fit the bill. And Purple Rain is such a massive iconic song, hasn't been used very much at all. It's very hard. I mean, we were worried about getting the rights to it, but we managed.

• 1:01:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, how long a process is that?

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  That one was actually harder than normal to get those rights. Yeah, that was, you know, not easy. No, we but we we got them before we shot the scene luckily, so we could we could figure that out. It may have been a joke here, honestly, we because Joe is so knowledgeable, him and Finn are both and Maya, they're all so knowledgeable about music, much more than Matt and I are. So we would just just keep getting like long lists of I of ideas from them. And I Purple Rain was I it's probably one of those that was on a bunch of bunch of people's. I mean, Joe was the, Joe was the one who said we'd need to end with Bowie's Heroes. Cause we hadn't played the original Heroes. And he's like, that's where you gotta end the song with, the show with.

• 1:02:05Josh Horowitz?

  Good call, yeah.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  I was like, good call, Joe.

• 1:02:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  He knows music if he didn't know. Yeah, he knows the shit.

• 1:02:10Josh Horowitz?

  So after Running Up That Hill, did anybody say no to you that you went to for music? Like, did that open up, like, the floodgates?

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  That opened up the floodgates. So we actually ended up saying no to, I'm not gonna say, like, crazy big bands are like, we will give you this for free. But, you know, that they all, they don't just wanna be featured kind of in the background. It's like, they want that, like, Kate Bush moment. We're just going, that's, we're not gonna, we're not going to even attempt that again, because it would be silly. So even a lot of what these big bands were asking for, we weren't gonna be able to do anyway. And they wouldn't have wanted, it would just, they would be, end up being compared unfavorably to Kate Bush. Cause that was kind of like a lightning in the bottle thing. But no, we didn't, we thought, I guess we went after Prince to be like, well, let's see if they fucking say no. Cause it was like, it's like Beatles, Prince, Michael Jackson, like, those are the top three, I think, hardest to, hardest to get.

• 1:02:59Josh Horowitz?

  Zeppelin back in the day, yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, Zeppelin. Zeppelin, well, yeah, Zeppelin's ridiculous. Just cost-wise.

• 1:03:05Josh Horowitz?

  Stranger Things has shown so much love to the eighties. If you could reboot any eighties pop culture franchise and direct it, what would you choose?

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  Oh, my god. Oh, this is, this is nasty, because it's just mints that, like, make some sort of fucking headlines.

• 1:03:20Josh Horowitz?

  It's great, and it's not even mine. I don't have to take the blame.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  You still pick it, Josh. I think, uh...

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:03:28Josh Horowitz?

  The Knight Rider show, what are you guys doing?

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  No, the problem is, I don't, when it's a, when a film is a classic, I really, I really don't. I just don't wanna mess, we were just talking about this, I don't wanna mess with it. Like, why am I messing with perfection? Yeah, cause some of those stuff comes to us, right? I, I think if I had to, uh, I think we'd have, I would have a lot of fun with Nightmare on Elm Street, because it just hasn't been done well in a while. And I think there's just so much potential with, um, not just the character Freddy, but the dream logic aspect of it that he tapped into, like Frank Darabont, who we worked with, tapped into in Dream Warriors. So there's a lot, I think there's a lot of fun that you could have with that. The rights are really messy, though.

• 1:04:14Josh Horowitz?

  I feel like you might now get a phone call.

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  I've tried, man. I don't know. I don't think so. But, yeah.

• 1:04:20Josh Horowitz?

  What's the, the biggest creative argument between the two of you you've had along the way?

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Man, we never argue, Josh. Get along.

• 1:04:33Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know what been a long drawn out writer's room.

• 1:04:38Josh Horowitz?

  I'm gonna stand my ground on this one.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Man, do you remember what the biggest argument was?

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  Don't say the title, cuz I know that's what you're thinking. Oh, that was one. Yeah, that's a good one. Okay. The title, but that's, I feel like I've talked about this before. He hated Stranger Things as a title.

• 1:04:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you hated it?

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  And you know who really hated it? David Harbour. Like, it's David Harbour.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  God, I should've, I should've had this ready, but he wrote, at some point, I'll just, I should just publish this email from him.

• 1:05:12Josh Horowitz?

  This was his saying.

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  It was, I didn't, we didn't know him very well. We had one meeting with him, we just cast him in the show, and then I got the longest email about how awful the new title is.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  What an idiot.

• 1:05:30Josh Horowitz?

  You know who, you know who loves the title? Billy Crudup.

• 1:05:35Josh Horowitz?

  Big fan.

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:05:36Josh Horowitz?

  So what was the strong second? I probably should know this. Is this out there? What, like, what was in the running besides Stranger Things?

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  Well, it was originally Montauk, so we were just struggling. I think we had lived, I know it sounds weird to people now, but we had lived with that for, you know, over a year. And, and, you know, and that's what David and everyone signed up for, Montauk, and it was not just the setting, but the title and, and everything. So it was just very hard to wrap our heads around what to call the show. I honestly don't remember what the, we had no really good other options. Well, we, and it was, you know, I, like Ted actually got so, Ted Sarandos got so fed up with us not settling on a title that he said, by, I think it was like, he gave us two weeks. He was like, by the end of that day on Friday, you gotta give me a title. And he's like, and you'll get used to it, I promise. And we gave him Stranger Things. He was right.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  Cuz those early deadline, like, any articles, news articles on the trades or whatever, it's just like Untitled Duffer Brothers Project. And everyone's like, who the fuck are the Duffer Brothers? It's like, you gotta give this a title.

• 1:06:40Josh Horowitz?

  No one knows who you are.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  But he was, yeah, he was right. It was like, just, just, just pick one. Pick one. But I was confident in it, for what it's worth. If I, I'll try to think of another argument we had.

• 1:06:51Josh Horowitz?

  You were very adamant with me and others, like, there's no intention to continue with these characters. This was the story you wanted to tell. That being said, we have Holly and her friends playing, you know, in that basement. If like, if a great creator comes to you and says, "I have an idea," like, does Jordan Peele be like, "Hey, I'd love to do the Holly adventures in Hawkeyes?"

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  Well, if Jordan Peele called, that's not happening, though. No, I don't think so. No, because that also wasn't intended for that, right? That was not meant for that. And by the time that was written, like, Nell would be like 17. So, no, it wasn't meant for that. I mean, we have this one idea. We've had one idea for what we could do with Stranger Things, and we had it like seven years ago. So that's what we're trying to do now. If we had another good idea, we would do it. I mean, if Holly starts to win this weird stuff, she's just gonna call her brother. And then it's like, we're just making Stranger Things again. So I think, you know, for us, yeah, that was really about sort of the passing of the torch and him remembering back to his childhood and saying goodbye to it than it was. It's not, obviously, setting anything up for a sequel.

• 1:07:55Josh Horowitz?

  How, when are we gonna see a film from you guys? Is that high on the list of the, you've got a lot on your plate, but...

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is mostly what we're focused on right now. That is our main focus. It's just working on this film. It's been, it's been really fun and rewarding to, we haven't written a film in a very long time, but it's exciting.

• 1:08:17Josh Horowitz?

  So how long have you been working on, is this an original idea, not IP?

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Yes, original idea. It's not long. I mean, we started, like, we started in April, I think. So it's really, well, like, we haven't pitched it. Like, nobody knows what it is. Paramount doesn't know what it is. They might not like it. I don't know. So what we're doing, yeah, so we started doing the spinoff and now, and we're doing this. So we're kind of bouncing between the two. But it's weird because we're so used to having this massive canvas. We're used to having, being able to tell a story over, you know, eight, 10 hours. And so, but it's fun. I mean, we were originally film people, so it's really fun to kind of re-lock and re-teach our brains how to tell a story in this much more contained period of time. And it's fun. It's like a Swiss watch, right? Like, the best films, you can't have

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  a single line that you don't need. So that part of it, it's challenging, but it's very fun. It won't have a 40-minute coda. I'll tell you that much.

• 1:09:12Josh Horowitz?

  It will be a genre film, I imagine, somewhere in the...

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Um, yes. Yeah, I don't, I don't think, like, I don't think you'll... Yeah, we're not making Blue Valentine. You know what I mean? Like, that would be shocking. Like, Bear Mountain would be like, "What is wrong with you?" No, so I think, I think it'll be... It's very different than Stranger Things, but it won't be... You won't be confused to be seeing this movie coming from us, if that makes sense.

• 1:09:35Josh Horowitz?

  And we can now call it Untitled Duffer Brothers Project, and people know what it means.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it will, it will have more meaning.

• 1:09:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  Than it used to.

• 1:09:43Josh Horowitz?

  Congratulations, guys. Thank you always for indulging me and my crazy questions. 10 years of your life. Thank you for contributing it to our, for our entertainment. You nailed it. Congratulations again. Stranger Things, fun.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:09:57Josh Horowitz?

  Give it up. Matt and Ross Duffer, everybody. Thanks for coming out tonight.

• 1:10:07Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to the show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts on the Big Podcast Person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

• 1:10:26Speaker 00

  Hey, first time? Love those sneakers. Thanks. Depop. Got them cheap. Oh, yeah? Okay, downloading. There's loads on there. Wow. Wish I'd had this last week. I just paid full price for mine. Right? And you can't get these ones anywhere. Find what you want for less on Depop. Sneakers worn once. Excellent condition.