Ebon Moss-Bachrach

Whether you know Ebon Moss-Bachrach from THE BEAR, GIRLS, ANDOR, FANTASTIC FOUR, his extensive theater work, or his dozens of films, you know he's reliably excellent and as a human, perhaps one of the most unpretentious actors ever to appear on this podcast. He joins Josh to chat about it all including his new episode of THE BEAR he co-wrote and stars in with his longtime friend and DOG DAY AFTERNOON co-star Jon Bernthal. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! UPCOMING EVENTS! 5/13 -- Matt & Ross Duffer in LA -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 5/17 -- Billy Eichner in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 5/18 -- Power Ballad w/Paul Rudd & Nick Jonas -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  My first movie that I did was with Gene Wilder, and I remember him telling me, and we were talking about different ways of acting and people staying in character. And he said, you know, it's incredible for someone to go and stay in character for the whole day and be, and live that out and really be that person and transform into that person and live as that person through this and everything. He said, what's more incredible is to do that and then to go home to your family and be like a dad and a husband or a friend. And that really stayed with me.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins.

• 1:08Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Today on the show, first time guest, it's Ebon Moss-Backrak, Talking Dog Day Afternoon, The Bear, Fantastic Four, and more. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Thank you for subscribing. Or if you haven't subscribed already, I don't know what you're doing. Do it right now on YouTube, on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. As I said, Eben Moss-Backrak is the main event today. He's got a lot going on. He is currently on Broadway in the adaptation of the seminal film, of course, Dog Day Afternoon, inspired by true events, him and Jon Bernthal. Speaking of him and Jon Bernthal, of course, friends and co-stars from The Bear. Their episode, Gary, has just dropped out of nowhere. They star in it.

• 1:52Josh Horowitz?

  It's a backstory episode that they co-wrote, a real labor of love. We talk about that, the final season of The Bear, his work in Marvel. Lot going on with this guy, a really great conversation. Before we get to Eben, as always, a reminder, if you like what I do, check out our Patreon, patreon.com/happy.

• 2:10Josh Horowitz?

  Sad, confused. We've always got a lot of events coming and here are just a few in just, I think about 48 hours. If you're watching or listening to this right when this drops, I'll be in Los Angeles with the Duffer Brothers. Tickets are still available. We are diving into the end of Stranger Things. These guys always have a lot to say. They always inspire a little controversy. Come on out, see them live. Got a special video message for the one and only David Harbour and more surprises. Tickets are still available. The link is in the show notes. Also talking to Billy Eichner on May 17th in New York City. That's gonna be a fun one. He has a new audio memoir. And on May 18th in New York, get a load of this. We are talking to the stars and director of Powerball, this great new movie,

• 2:51Josh Horowitz?

  directed by John Carney and starring Paul Rudd and Nick Jonas. They are all joining me, May 18th, New York City, and we are screening the film. So, a lot of opportunities to see me do my thing in person. And as always, all that information and discount codes is on our Patreon, patreon.com/happysadconfused. Okay, like I said, main event, Eben Moss Backrack. I'm not gonna talk anymore because you want to hear from the man himself. What a chill, great guy. We also talked about girls, of course. And yeah, just so happy he finally did the podcast. He's been one that I've been circling for a while, so it was worth the wait. I know you guys are gonna enjoy this one. Here he is, me and Eben Moss Backrack. Eben?

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Josh.

• 3:33Josh Horowitz?

  Are you ready for this?

• 3:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:38Josh Horowitz?

  Don't know what you signed up for today.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but here we are.

• 3:40Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you for doing this, man. Whether you know it or not, you've been on the list. There are bad lists and good lists. This is a good list.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:46Josh Horowitz?

  You've been on the list for happy.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  So intrigued about the bad list. Can we get right into that? Who's on that one?

• 3:51Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it's the naughty list. That's obviously no Christmas presents. That's Santa's list. I have no bad list.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Oh, you don't have a bad list, though?

• 3:57Josh Horowitz?

  Maybe I should start one today, though.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  I don't know. I heard that, I know some podcasters get like if a last minute cancellation.

• 4:05Josh Horowitz?

  Well, yeah, off mic, we can talk about some people.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  See, here we go.

• 4:09Josh Horowitz?

  We can go there. Let's see how familiar we get.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:12Josh Horowitz?

  You are the first Eben on this podcast.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Okay, naturally.

• 4:15Josh Horowitz?

  First Backrack, not Moss. We can count Elizabeth Moss, I guess, in the middle there.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 4:21Josh Horowitz?

  Did your, was your name ever a name that felt like a hindrance? Did anybody ever say like, you gotta change the name professionally speaking?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  My name feels like a hindrance every second of every day. For me, it is a, it is a fucking mouthful, man.

• 4:36Josh Horowitz?

  Starbucks, what do they, what do they think? What I think you're saying?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I don't mess with Starbucks really too much, but it, but it is like, you know, I'll, I'll just drop the back rack when I'm trying to like get a reservation or something and then do things, you know, things like that. It just seems like too much. I once was on a list of like, people on like a host committee for some sort of benefit thing and there was, I don't know, maybe like 50 actors or something. And the only person longer than me was Cedric the Entertainer.

• 5:06Josh Horowitz?

  Which was his given birth name, I believe. Yeah. He came out of the womb.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  No, see, he, see, he, I, I, you know, he chose it. He, he, he chose it. But this was something given to me. No one ever said, maybe change it. I thought about it for a while and then, I don't know, I was too lazy or proud or, you know, I'm from Massachusetts and, you know, I didn't want that whole, you know, change it up and then people say, well, you know, who do you think you are?

• 5:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  You know?

• 5:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  You think you're better than us?

• 5:32Josh Horowitz?

  Did you ever entertain? Did you have a list going? Did you have an alternate name in mind?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Oh, um, uh, no, I never, I never really made it that far.

• 5:43Josh Horowitz?

  Now, obviously people know the name, know who you are. Like you, I, I feel like you have a sweet spot of a really good level of celebrity. Like, is that, is that fair to say? I feel like you can walk the streets, you're fine. Also, New York helps, the vibe in New York.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:57Josh Horowitz?

  Do you feel that that's accurate, even given obviously the bumps along the way of like the bump ups, like with, with girls, with the bear, Fantastic Four? It's, it's still manageable?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  I don't find, my, my life is not like hindered or interrupted, you know, I can, I can live my life just fine, you know? No one's, no one's really chasing me around too much. I'm, I'm good.

• 6:17Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I think also part of it's what you project out into the world, right? It's like some people, if you want that kind of attention, you can live that kind of life. Like if you're living a life, like I know, I've seen you on the subway. Sorry, I saw you from afar. I didn't say anything. But like you're out and about, you're just like living like a normal human being. And I think that engenders a certain level of like, I'm a normal human being if you act like a normal human being.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, you know. I have two immediate thoughts. One thing is that, you know, people get the PR machine going and they they really whip it up and they're put their picture everywhere and you know, and then they complain about having no anonymity. And that seems a little bit disingenuous to me. But the second thing for me is like, yeah, I mean, I got no

• 7:01Speaker 01

  interest in not being able to have a kind of not take the subway and I don't know, not be a it doesn't seem like very good for acting to sort of sequester yourself in some kind of tower and insulate yourself. It seems like that's, I don't know, not, not, not, not great for the job.

• 7:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, because, I mean, I've often heard actors talk about value of just, you know, people watching of observing others. I mean, that is never, if you, if you're the one being observed, that's going to take away a superpower that you can draw upon, I would think.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and people are just treating you in a certain way. I mean, you know, I'm, I'm just a, you know, a dude in New York, really.

• 7:41Josh Horowitz?

  So you're in the middle of a lot of things. I saw Dog Day Afternoon.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Oh, you did? Okay, cool. Thanks. Thanks.

• 7:46Josh Horowitz?

  Um, an amazing ensemble led by you and your buddy, John Bernthal. Yeah. I don't know if you and Bernthal are now spending more time, like, it feels like your wife and Bernthal probably equal measure. There's like, they're equally.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, it's my, I've spent much more time with John in the past six weeks or so. I mean, my wife, my wife was gone. She was, she saw that we were rehearsing a play and trying to get it on his feet. And she was like, oh, I'll take this opportunity to go and like, you know, do a big photo trip in Europe. So she, she took off for a while, which was really smart of her.

• 8:14Josh Horowitz?

  So he's the work wife?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:16Josh Horowitz?

  Um, and obviously we're going to talk about Gary as well, but I want to start with like, just Dog Day because, I don't know, what do you like during a production? You've obviously done a lot of theaters. This is your first Broadway production. I don't know if you feel a discernible difference or not, but are you in a kind of different headspace? Are you a different kind of, I don't know, person during production of a theatrical production or a TV show or a film? Or are you able to kind of compartmentalize and live your normal life?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Okay, that's like, that's a lot of variables. First of all, there, I do notice a big difference between Broadway and off Broadway.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Just in the scale, the budget, the level of production, the expectation of the audience, the size of the audience. The demographic of the audience, the diversity of the audience on Broadway is a lot better than when I've done plays in the past in off-Broadway houses, which are oftentimes subscriber-based. And there's a sort of, it's a very sort of kind of-

• 9:16Josh Horowitz?

  Thousand people keep going to everything.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  New Yorker, NPR, I mean, this is obviously, I'm generalizing, you know, but there's that, and, you know, so there's a lot of that, but our audiences are incredible on Dog Day Afternoon. People are from all over the city and all the country and all over the world and very young. So that's very exciting. In terms of what my life is like, yeah, when I'm doing a play, everything sort of works backwards from the time of curtain, you know, that is sort of the holiest moment in the day. And I just sort of, you know, when I eat, when I sleep, what I'm thinking about, it is all, for better or for worse, about,

• 9:53Speaker 01

  you know, about the play. So normally, I think I probably have a more chaotic or drifty, transient sort of days, you know, carefree. Maybe that's a nice way to say-

• 10:11Josh Horowitz?

  There you go. Or transient sounds fun.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, transient sounds fun.

• 10:14Josh Horowitz?

  You're talking about between jobs, though. Obviously, when you're doing like The Bear or something, that's a structure to-

• 10:20Speaker 01

  That's a structure too, but again, that structure is not as root, like, you know, some days I go in at 5:00 a.m., sometimes I go in at 5:00 p.m. And, but this is like very routinized. And I like kind of that, you know, I wake up, I exercise, I, you know, I have a couple of things I do, you know, do some things around the house, spend time with my wife. I mean, you know, like, I do like some meal prep. Like, every day is very similar, and there's something really nice and comforting about that.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  When I do something like The Bear, when I'm working on location, I just go to work when they tell me to go to work and then I'm back in my hotel room and I'm just sort of just waiting to go to work. And it's like a very

• 11:04Speaker 01

  more monastic kind of like, even though the routine of the theater feels in some ways monastic, I'm home. So I'm, I'm getting to do all my projects. I'm cooking a lot and doing all my weird little, you know.

• 11:18Josh Horowitz?

  Not to mention you're feeling like that, hopefully that level of satisfaction, like going on the journey of a character every, almost every single night. Like, there must be no greater high for an actor when you've kind of gone to the end of the journey and hopefully feel, feel like you accomplished something and.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, with this, I don't know, with Place for Me, it always feels like the horizon's just receding. I, I, I don't feel, oh, like I nailed it or that was a real home run. There's parts that I like every night, different parts, things that I felt went well, things that I felt did not go well. And it's, you know, it's

• 11:54Speaker 01

  elusive and ephemeral and kind of hard to put your finger on what the thing is. You're sort of chasing this kind of misty, amorphous thing. And so that, that, that's exciting and frustrating.

• 12:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:05Josh Horowitz?

  This obviously, I mean, everybody knows the name. Hopefully everybody listening or watching this knows what Dog Day Afternoon is. If you don't know the film, I mean, what are you doing with your life? It's one of the time rates. I mean, I'm sure early on, like myself, like any cinephile, you went through the, we met Pacino, Gazal phase and just kind of like dove in. Like, was this a seminal film for you?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yes, I don't have that, that crystalline moment where I remember watching it and leaving the theater a different person. I can't remember when I saw it the first time. I mean, definitely that whole period of the, of 70's cinema is like, still, I think to me is the greatest decade of movies that we have.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  And that movie and, you know, and Godfather and Conversation. Conversation. They are very much like in like fabric DNA, whatever you want to call it, of, of everything after. I mean, I mean, hopefully, it's impossible, you know, that's just that they changed everything and they, and they.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  The immediacy of those movies and the political nature of them and the anxiety that is in them and the level of commitment from the actors just raise the bar.

• 13:27Josh Horowitz?

  And Kazal, for those that don't know, I mean, his, his story is unbelievable just because of sadly the short life he led and the, the few films he made. I think he's made like five movies and they were like all best picture nominees. It's insane what he did.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:41Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I would think at a certain point, hopefully early on, you have to kind of like you and Bernthal and everybody on the team's like, they're going to be the comparisons that's going to happen, but we have to just forge ahead and block that part of my brain out. Like, how do you deal with that?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  That's comparisons are inevitable. And I've said this in other interviews, but it's like, you know, this story, the movie is based on an actual, you know, the actual robbery that happened on August 22nd. And I, and I think the story of that robbery is so big and iconic and mythic in a way that it can hold many different versions of, you know, like there could be an opera. There could be, you know, a comic book of the thing. Unfortunately for us, there's one of the best movies ever made and then our play, you know? So it would have been a lot easier if there's been a couple of other things in between. It would have been a, you know, would have taken a lot of the pressure off of our back and also it would have been a little bit easier, I think for audiences. I'm kind of finding that

• 14:40Speaker 01

  a lot of the people that come and see the play have not seen the movie and then they go off and see the movie. And a lot of people that are going in expecting to see the movie on a play, I just, I'm left kind of scratching my head because like, why, why would we try to do that?

• 14:54Josh Horowitz?

  Well, also I'm going in honestly, I was kind of like, how would they even do that? And I think one of the joys of seeing the play is kind of how you guys stretch it and move it around it. Just reinterpret it in your own way because it does feel alive in a different way than the film does. It's, it's a whole.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And Stephen A. Lee Gary is the playwright. Like he's got such, you know, his own.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Rhythms and distinctive voice and he has such an amazing ear for this cultural specificities of a time and place in New York and you know Sheep's Head Bay. And it's just, it's, it's richer in a, in a way. And then theater is just so different than movie. I mean, John Cazale was like shot in close ups. He, he, he didn't say much in the movie and that, you know, theater is a, a medium of, of words.

• 15:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. I don't think anyone's seeing, maybe in 1975, they were chanting Attica in the theater, but I doubt it. They probably weren't screaming at the screen.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  They probably were screaming at the screen, but who knows what they were screaming.

• 16:02Speaker 04

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• 16:31Speaker 05

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• 17:15Speaker 05

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• 17:32Josh Horowitz?

  Is there any downside, there are a lot of upsides to knowing your co-star for over 20 years. Is there any downside? Like, do you know his tells? He must know your tells within a moment, within a scene, like whether you're going up on a line or something like that?

• 17:47Speaker 01

  I mean, there's things that I can tell John, you know, everyone has things that they fall back on, whether they know it or not, little things. And I see things in John and I can sort of preempt him sometimes. And if he starts to do this thing where he puts his head to the side, I'll put my head to the side first and sort of beat him to it and sort of keep him honest a little bit. But there's no, for the most part, so far, you know, there's been no downside. It's been all upside to be very, very difficult to do this without like a brother like that. Especially because John is so uniquely honest and courageous and strong and physical. Like, I don't know how many other actors could pull this off.

• 18:30Josh Horowitz?

  Did you guys, back in the day, ever go up for the same roles? Like, were you in those same audition rooms?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I don't think we were ever in the same audition rooms. He didn't live in New York very long. I mean, he was here for a little while, but then he went out to LA and I think he got pretty successful fairly quickly out there. Yeah, I don't think we were ever really up for the same. I mean, he's said many times, and we've talked about this a bunch, but like, he understudied me many, many years ago. So we were in that room together, the Signature Theater out on West 42nd Street there. But aside from that, no, I don't think we're really up for the same thing.

• 19:12Josh Horowitz?

  So had you ever written before together? Have you ever written, period? Because this, so as we tape this, just a couple of days ago, this gift from The Bear Heavens came to us.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Thanks for calling it that, yeah.

• 19:24Josh Horowitz?

  This great episode called Gary, which obviously details the backstory of your two characters a bit. How did this one come around? Like, was this like something you pitched Chris Dor? Does Chris Dor say like, hey, you want to take a crack at this? What's the origin here?

• 19:40Speaker 01

  You know, John's got very little to do in the show, but he's but the shadow that his character, the specter of, you know, the recently departed Mikey Berzot is massive. And certainly massive for Karmie and for my character Richie, you know, when we find in the beginning of season one, everyone's like grieving pretty hard, especially my guy. He's really like, doesn't know what to do with himself. And I'd always been interested in finding a moment to show what he's grieving, like what he's lost, you know, what is that friendship, what is that brotherhood, what is the the sort of joy that these men had had together and their relationship.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  And so when we were coming up, now I can say that, you know, the last season, we were approaching season five, John and I were talking about maybe, we wanted to pitch to Chris just some couple scenes to have throughout the season of flashbacks where maybe we we could see what these, what life was like in in like the golden era, sort of, you know, so to speak, of the beef. And so we scheduled a call with John, Chris and myself, and before John and I could even say anything, Chris was said, hey, listen, let me pitch you guys something.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  What do you guys think about writing an episode, just a standalone for Richie and Mikey? And it would be a kind of a Western where you guys got to like, go from one place to another. And Chris and I had both been watching a lot of Westerns, and he said it kind of like a three tent to Yuma sort of thing, where you go from one place to another, and then there's this almost existential sort of waiting period that happens. And then there's probably like a girl at the bar, you know, as there always is, you know? And so we're like, we. We were like, we couldn't believe what a gift it was that Chris offered up for us. So we got, we got off the phone and we quickly called each other and I was like, man, I can't believe this. John's like, yeah, oh my God, I got like tears in my eyes.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  What a beautiful person Chris is to give us this opportunity. And we, um, so we immediately had a bunch of ideas. And I think not long after that, we were doing a workshop of Dog Day Afternoon in Times Square, just, just with the, with the writer and, and the director and some other actors and things. And every day, we did for two or three days and every day after rehearsal, we would walk back to John's hotel and then we'd get to his hotel and we would just write over, you know, for, for a couple of hours and really quick ideas and overall, and then sort of sharper and sharper and sharper until we, um, got a fairly general script.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  And then over the next few months, that script got really fleshed out and it's pretty specific. I mean, there's a little bit of improv in, in the show, but it's, it's all pretty scripted.

• 22:35Josh Horowitz?

  Like when they go into the, when they're buying the, what's the, the, um, the Coney, uh,

• 22:41Speaker 01

  The Coney.

• 22:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Is she behind the counter?

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:42Josh Horowitz?

  Like a, like a.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  So she's not an actor. She, she, she works there.

• 22:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah. That felt.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  She works there and so. You know, the bear likes to do that thing where, you know, there, there's always like, there's a lot of chefs, actual chefs that are in it. And they always end up being like these really like fancy chefs, you know, fine dining, kind of like stars. And I thought it was great that we actually were talking to like somebody who's just like at a hot dog, you know, like at a hot dog stand, which is essentially what these guys really do, you know? Like she was like a, you know, a sister just like down the road.

• 23:13Josh Horowitz?

  That's amazing. It's all, I, I mean, to hear, I mean, it's the golden era, but it's also like the stuff that you guys say to each other in this episode. I mean, it's like, you're obviously like, you're playing roles and you're playing characters, but you're still see, you're looking into the eyes of your friend saying some despicable things to you. I mean, what's that like to hear like John go at you in the form of that character towards the end of this episode? Um, it's, it's heartbreaking to watch.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, he was very scary in that scene and very sad and volatile. And it's, you're just sort of watching a man receive, you know, who was in such a beautiful place a few minutes ago. I mean, you know, um, but, um.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  You know, I'm sure everyone's seen that thing where you see someone's eyes change and you don't know where they're going, but it's not somewhere where you really want to follow them to.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  So, yeah, those are those, that scene in particular was scary. I said the golden age, but that's what we were really initially thinking because I think so much of the time, I'm so interested in the characters like joy and what their best scenario is and what their dreams are. And we don't get to see that all that much. And with Richie, we didn't really get to see it that much. And I wanted to see the golden era, so to speak, but this was not really that. But they do have moments in that.

• 24:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  But this is very much, I mean, I think timeline wise, that episode ends up being, it's after the fish's episode and before he takes his life. So it's, and it's maybe if not the last time the two of them spoke, it's sort of the last time they really spent some time together.

• 24:54Josh Horowitz?

  It's also gonna, I mean, obviously I haven't had time to re-watch episodes like since, but like I think it's gonna enrich going back now. I mean, like to think about the things that he says to Richie about like, you know, you're gonna be a horrible father. And Richie's not. Richie's like such a great dad. To see how he's, he didn't live up to what his friend said in his worst moment is kind of a beautiful thing.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think, yeah, I mean, I think in that moment, you know, he,

• 25:24Speaker 01

  and you wonder how much of his dedication to his daughter. I mean, I think that's who he is as someone who really didn't have many parental figures. I mean, I don't want to get into, like, these are things that I know that I think about the guy myself, but I don't really like to share them, but,

• 25:45Speaker 01

  how, you know, when you want to, opposition is a good motivator, you know? You say, okay, you said I'm not gonna do it. Watch this. Like, fuck you, dude. I'm here. I ain't going anywhere for this kid.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna give her what, you know, no one ever gave me. I do think he's a wonderful dad. I'm so happy that that's how the character is portrayed.

• 26:11Josh Horowitz?

  It's also said, I mean, you, you, you allude to this, like the gift when like Chris comes to you guys and says like, you know what? I'd like you guys to take a crack at this and like write this like that's as you well know, not the norm. This is like, is it fair to say like the, the bear from the start has been one of the more collaborative environments you've ever been a part of?

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Without a doubt, and it's not just with the actors, but I think with the whole crew. The bear was always a set where everyone was part of the discussion of the story and, and what we were trying to, you know, the look or the lighting, you know, depending on what people's department was, it was always deeply, deeply collaborative. And I've found a few different kinds of directors that I've worked with, you know, and some are like, can, can operate on a macro and a micro level and wanna, you know, control everything and adjust everyone's pant length and just, just, just

• 27:08Speaker 01

  really have their fingers in every decision, aesthetic, story, character, everything. And that's really impressive to be able to hold that amount of like real estate and sort of artistic vision. And then I've also worked with directors that are just like hire the people that they wanna hire. And then let everyone do their job. And Chris is definitely more, I think, in, in that camp, um, which is a, which is a beautiful way to operate. I think it's so trusting and inspiring.

• 27:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it's interesting because I would imagine both can be very, very rewarding. Like if you're in the hands of, I know it was a bit part, but like Wes Anderson or someone like that's like, yeah, I'm gonna trust and I wanna be kind of like a tool in the toolbox and I'll trust them to move me around. But on the flip side, like to feel ownership over your character and to feel like you're not even an owner, just a collaborator, like a true collaborator on a set, that's kinda what it's all about, um, as an artist, hopefully.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  I think so. I mean, I like the, I like the, the different experiences. I liked all, all, all the different. You know, I made a movie with Ira Sachs earlier this year and Ira's like very, his vision is very, very specific. And I would say come to him with some ideas about lines or outfit or things and he'd be like,

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Okay, I disagree with you. You know, but he would, he would hear me and listen to me and then just say I was wrong. Or, and a couple of times I would, you know, he, he was okay with it. But, um, I don't know, I love all that stuff. And if it's, if it's, if it's a, if it's a director whose movies I love and I'm willing to say, okay, man, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll buy the, buy the ticket and take your ride.

• 28:42Josh Horowitz?

  How are you on a line, a line reading?

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Um, I'm kind of okay with a line reading. I think when I was younger and angrier, I'd like the principal of it would, would frustrate me. Now sometimes it's just like, let's, I ask so much, yeah, like, can you just tell me what the, you know, just want it louder, that's fine. You know, people, there was a story I heard about like Gene Hackman, I guess, who would just say, you would just have, I don't know whether it be like Friedkin or whatever, he just wanted them to go like, this or this, not like thumbs up, good job, but just like a little like,

• 29:12Josh Horowitz?

  Like toggle it up or down, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Bring it down or just keep staying where you are. And that's kind of general, not specific, and, and, and I like that.

• 29:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

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• 30:46Josh Horowitz?

  So diving back, because we have the luxury of time a little bit. Growing up, are you a jock? Are you a nerd? Are you somewhere in between? Are you a little bit of everything? What's young Evan like?

• 30:55Speaker 01

  I am like deeply into reading fantasy books, Little Dungeons and Dragons, playing in the woods. I grew up, you know, outside of Amherst, Massachusetts. Lots of woods, spending time out there. Pretty social, lot of music.

• 31:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  I played piano for a very long time, starting when I was young. Music was a big part of my house.

• 31:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  My dad ran a music school. My grandmother was a piano instructor at Juilliard. And so this was just sort of a non-negotiable part of my upbringing that I quickly really loved and became part of my identity. I loved classical music. And then at a certain point in high school, I started playing jazz. And then it became more of a social thing. And that was a really inspiring moment. And I think that was maybe the beginning of my love of collaborative collaboration.

• 31:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  And also improvisation and spontaneity and this idea of present and the moment, which is so essential to acting, and certainly in the theater.

• 32:14Josh Horowitz?

  There's improv involved in D and D. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta kinda just...

• 32:19Speaker 01

  You gotta roll with it, yeah.

• 32:20Josh Horowitz?

  Literally and figuratively.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 32:23Josh Horowitz?

  There it is.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Well done.

• 32:24Josh Horowitz?

  Were you like a Tolkien guy? You talk about fantasy, like what were you reading?

• 32:27Speaker 01

  I was reading like Robert Jordan, Piers Anthony, the Xanth series, like Terry, what's his name? Like Douglas Adams, Frank Herbert. You know, like I was, I was never hard fantasy, hard science fiction.

• 32:47Josh Horowitz?

  Terry Pratchett. Terry Pratchett, yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  I love.

• 32:54Josh Horowitz?

  Dune is pretty hard sci fi, no, is that not considered?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, to be honest, I didn't really get into Dune. I tried when I was a kid and I couldn't get into it.

• 33:02Josh Horowitz?

  It's a tough one.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  And then I tried many times with Dune. And then maybe the fifth time I started reading it, I was like, wow. And I read like the six of them, like back to back.

• 33:12Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, wow.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, there's a lot there.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 33:16Josh Horowitz?

  Do you like the movies?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  I do like the movies.

• 33:18Josh Horowitz?

  I do, they're great. I mean, Zennies, obviously.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, what a world builder.

• 33:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Those kinds of movies, you know, um, I would kind of rather watch than be a part of. Because, you know, you can't, you can't unsee.

• 33:33Josh Horowitz?

  You see how the sausage is made?

• 33:35Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And I'm really good about going in and I love escapist films and I love to just have the world sort of melt away and so.

• 33:43Josh Horowitz?

  But you've been in Star Wars, you've been in Marvel. Like, are those movies ruined for you now? I mean, you know how, you know, the Thing is not an actual guy in a suit.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:52Josh Horowitz?

  You know, first time.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  I guess, um, um, that's what you say. Um, when I did, when I worked on Andor, I will say, so my first scene was, you know, I got to London, I had to quarantine for two weeks. I didn't leave my hotel, it was like deep COVID. And the first scene we shot was this death scene where Diego Luna just, I sort of bring up this idea like, you know, we can, there's, I know about a moon, like a couple thousand parsecs from here. And, and he looks at me and he just shoots me with a blaster and I die. So that like, what a horrible first day. I never met Diego, he was lovely.

• 34:34Josh Horowitz?

  Nice to meet you.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  We started shooting where somebody in some cornfield outside of London. And the director came up and said, okay, so there's a moon there. And then there's another moon over there. And I'm like looking at my lines, I was like, oh, and then I gotta say parsecs. And I was like, whoa, that was like, that was a lot. Because Star Wars was really important, you know, I was born in seventy seven. You know, so, and I had the little Star Wars action figures, like that was, that was my, I mean, I love that stuff. So that was. Overwhelming, you know, my, my, my pulse got going and I had to like, you know, I had to like dry my palms a little bit and then, and then get into and try to act because it was, it did feel like so.

• 35:12Josh Horowitz?

  You're entering your childhood fantasies.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was a lot. It was a bit, um, hallucinatory.

• 35:20Josh Horowitz?

  And on, on the Marvel front, um, is that, is that, I mean, there was so much talk about the casting, a lot of names were being bandied about for all four of you. Like, were they like screen testing you guys or was that just an offer at the end of the day?

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Like, I got an offer, I think I got an offer before anybody else. I didn't have any screen testing. I've, I've had to jump through a lot of hoops in my life and this was one that I did not have to, which, I mean.

• 35:44Josh Horowitz?

  That's a pretty great gift.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a great, I was really shocked when it was just like, I was just walking down Fifth Avenue one day and then my agents called and they're like, yeah, they asked you to do it. I was like, whoa.

• 35:57Josh Horowitz?

  Was there any hesitancy? I mean, there are obviously a lot of pros and probably there are always cons and like, obviously joining a multi film arc and that's going to take you away from other opportunities, et cetera. There could be the fame aspect. Like, was there any kind of hesitancy for you to, to jump into it?

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Well, I always want, you know, you want to think about the whole, you want to be very sober about, about, you know, and, and I'm not the kind of person who's just been dying to be a superhero or anything like that. So I really waited and for me, a huge attraction to it was that I was going to be playing a character that was motion capture.

• 36:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Or performance capture and that was going to be very much me, but

• 36:44Speaker 01

  I mean, to so many fans, they got, you know, they don't, unless they're like real Marvel heads, they don't connect me with the, the orange guy. So I found a lot of freedom in that.

• 36:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Freedom to play and, um, and like, yeah, it could be, it felt like it could be experimental almost in a way.

• 37:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Sort of a, I don't know, really push like my physicality as an actor. I don't know. It just, it just, it, to me, it seemed like.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Speaking for me, personally, the best way for me to be a part of this universe.

• 37:20Josh Horowitz?

  Well, we literally just had Andy Serkis in here.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  I saw that, yeah.

• 37:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, so I mean, like, and those that like buy into it and really enjoy it, like, they embrace it. I mean, often it is theater actors, people that have a lot of experience that love it, I feel like, because it is, it's almost back to like black box theater. It's like really using your imagination and using your physicality. And, I mean, how freeing as an actor, you know, you want to think as an actor, you can be anything. With performance capture, you can literally be anything.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Yep, I think that for all the people, like, for Pedro, Joe, Vanessa, myself, like, I think we're, making these movies is all like a return to childhood and playing make believe. I think you gotta really just jump in, you know, headfirst into this beautiful land of make believe. And I don't know how else to do it. And then it is like, you know, you gotta pretend that there's a Galactus and he's really big.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  And so you just kind of have this collective pact of let's play.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Andy Serkis was, early on, after I decided to do the part, I got in touch with him and he was so generous, both he and Mark Ruffalo, they were really, I mean, it was like I was entering to this like small club of, of, of capture performers. And they both were very strong about saying, you know, this is not really different than the, than the other stuff. And you're really just trying as much to be there with your people as possible. And I was there every day and I was, there's versions of making a movie like that where you can, you just go into the little black box and do all your capture stuff. And I know sometimes people do it like that.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  And I was so grateful to be there and have that experience. And also it was like really cool because I'm in my, like, my suit. But for Reed and Sue and Johnny, you know, when they look at the thing, they see Ben Grimm. And so I think it was.

• 39:21Josh Horowitz?

  They knew the guy.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so when they're looking at me, they're seeing, they're seeing Eben. And I think that that was helpful for, for everybody.

• 39:28Josh Horowitz?

  I felt badly for you guys. The press tours for those things are, are insane.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  They're weird.

• 39:33Josh Horowitz?

  They're insane. I actually spoke to you, one of the first times I spoke to you was at Comic Con. When they, they dragged you guys out, you had just started filming, like, or like we're in rehearsal.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  In San Diego?

• 39:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Oh, we hadn't even shot yet. We hadn't, we haven't even filmed the thing. We were announcing it was, it was a very strange experience.

• 39:48Josh Horowitz?

  I say this with love. You guys looked like The Walking Dead on that press line. You were like, where am I? How are we doing?

• 39:54Speaker 01

  No, no, no. We literally flew in, landed that morning, did the thing, and then flew back to London. And it was a deeply confusing, I mean, the way that we were all trying to massage it and make it feel better was like, oh, this is a bonding. You know, like we're going up and we're going into up into the sky together. And man, oh, man, was that, that was hard. And that's also just feels so, um, like you're really tempting fate. To go into like a crowd of a hundred thousand people and like high five people. It's like, we haven't even done the thing.

• 40:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. It's like. There is also, I don't know how plugged into like social media, but there's like this like now infamous video of you, I think all four of you. And it's like you, especially in Joe, during the junket where like Joe is like, I think just like checked it. Like he's just like, I think half asleep because you guys probably done three hundred interviews.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  During the, after we made the movie.

• 40:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Oh, do you know that, that, that video that's gone around?

• 40:47Speaker 01

  There's a few, I think there's a few really, there's one where Joe makes me laugh like crazy.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was another one where they said, I was in Australia and they were like, okay, here's, there's a room of influencers. And I like walked in and it was like, the why, I felt like I walked into the Wizard of Oz, man. And people were like dancing around. I was like, wow, I mean, it's just, it's, it is very, um.

• 41:11Josh Horowitz?

  It's a lot.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a lot.

• 41:12Josh Horowitz?

  How was Doomsday? Was it a much different kind of experience for you?

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Doomsday was different in that it's a bigger movie with more moving parts and I think it was more compartmentalized.

• 41:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Whereas like Fantastic Four, first steps, like, oh, we were there like every, every day, every day, having a sense of the thing. And these, these movies are so interstellar and so galactic and conceptual, so it's very hard sometimes to understand what's going on in the story. And Doomsday was a little bit harder for me to hold all the, the, the parts in. I mean, I knew where I was, I knew which

• 41:51Josh Horowitz?

  You were

• 41:51Speaker 01

  planet, which universe I was in, but how it was connecting to other universes is I would have to go back to like, Joe, can you just, I know you've talked me through, can you just tell me one more time, like?

• 42:02Josh Horowitz?

  It's not, I mean, I've talked to all your co-stars in all these films and it's not unusual, you just kind of have to trust, I mean, those guys somehow know how to cobble it all together, like, you probably, I would guess, never even read the full, did you read like a full script at any point or?

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 42:16Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, you did?

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did read a full script, but those scripts changed quite a bit.

• 42:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, right.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I know, you know what, probably not, it probably didn't have a full, like, third act.

• 42:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  I don't think it had an ending, I don't think anyone gets to see that stuff.

• 42:32Josh Horowitz?

  And I don't, I'm not trying to get spoilers or anything, but I was just curious, did you get to see Downey do his, do his thing because?

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah.

• 42:38Josh Horowitz?

  Pretty cool?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, great, yeah. Uh, and what a, just what a, like, oh, wonderful man, like, what a great set leader he was, like, he was just, he was like, you know, he, he's been doing this for a long time, he was so generous and really like checking in, making sure everyone was good, like, it's just like, yeah, really, really good, uh, good kind of coach energy there. They're very able to roll with these movies, I mean, if you look around, I would look around the room and I'd be like,

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Ian McKellen, and there's like, then there's like Channing Tatum, and then this, it's just, it's just, oh, it's, it's a lot.

• 43:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah. So, we now know officially, segueing back to Gary and the bear, the bear, we kind of knew this, but it's the final season, coming very soon. How are you at saying goodbye to long-term jobs? This is obviously a one that has meant a very significant amount to you in terms of career and personal life and who you are as an actor and person. Was it tough to say goodbye? Do you feel like you've said goodbye yet?

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Well, I ended my last day on the bear. They were kind enough to shoot me out early so that I could do this play. So I missed the first two weeks of rehearsal for Dog Day Afternoon because I was working on the bear. And so I was filled with anxiety about my new job. But then I was trying to learn lines and I said, you know what, I can't do this. I just gotta be here for the bear. And

• 44:11Speaker 01

  the last scene I saw on the bear was very cathartic in a way. I feel like endings are really hard. I've gotten better at them because I've had to do it a lot and fallen in love with the cast and made little families. This family is unique. I mean, I really, really, these people are very important to me and we all went on this wild journey together.

• 44:35Josh Horowitz?

  Well, transformed all of your lives.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And we all care so deeply about the story and the people that were playing in this. But yeah, you know, I got wrapped out and clapped out and I got to hug everybody and cry my tears and thank everyone. And so I felt like what's the worst is like you, you go and you think you're coming back and you don't get back, you know, and you're just sort of filled with regret. And then I, and then I had, and then the very next day I was in rehearsal.

• 45:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Which is nice to not sort of go home and get the blues. But I think that I've done what I've wanted to do in the bear more, you know, more than I would have, could have ever imagined. And I'm really excited about the fifth season. I think it's a very,

• 45:24Speaker 01

  it takes from all the other seasons in the best way. And again, endings are really hard and I think

• 45:32Speaker 01

  I'm very optimistic about how this show ends. I think it ends in a, in a, in a, in a good way, in a real way.

• 45:38Josh Horowitz?

  I know people always want to bring up certain episodes and Forks always comes up, which ironically you always talk about because you do love the collaborative nature of the show and that wasn't necessarily the episode where you got to like mix it up with the gang. Were you, I mean, obviously that script must have read as a great opportunity and a great script. Like, were you shocked by like the things that resonated? Like, who knew that the power of like a forty something guy singing Taylor Swift alone in a car was so potent?

• 46:06Speaker 01

  I guess Christopher, Chris Stor, I guess, and Joanna Callan. I sure didn't, I mean.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  I've seen that episode once. It's way too much of me for me to really like, you know, and I saw it at, you know, at the, I saw it in the editing office, kind of like, watched it like this, and, you know, the editor, everyone was really excited about it, and I thought they were all crazy. But I know definitely, I mean, I've talked about that episode with

• 46:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  probably thousands of people, and it's, I don't know, I feel so, I mean, I said this many, it sounds like, you know, I'm just like the forward-facing part. I didn't write it, I didn't direct it, you know, you know what I mean? I lived it out, no, I mean, and I'm proud of my work in it. And again, it's like I said earlier, like, talking about joy, you know, rarely do we get to see joy, especially in like, middle-aged men

• 47:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  too, you know, it's not something that I think culture puts a lot of like, value in. And also, it's not great for storytelling so much, because, you know, it's like, you know, it's kind of anti-dramatic in a way, you know, but I think it's really important to see people have victories, and to celebrate, and to change, and to experience things, and to have light, and to have their hearts swollen, to experience optimism, and feel the sun on their face. And I think it's inspiring, and I can tell you without a doubt, like, it has inspired like, thousands of people around the world that I've gotten to, and I didn't think that that was possible. So it definitely like, changed me.

• 47:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  I was too cyn- I was way too cynical to anticipate anything like that. But, I mean, I'm so, you know, humbled and grateful that I got to be a part of that thing. It's like, a really eye-opening.

• 47:58Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, it's an all-timer. It's amazing. I, you know, I

• 48:01Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not dying to watch it again or anything.

• 48:03Josh Horowitz?

  We're gonna watch it right now.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Great, we can, we can, we can

• 48:07Josh Horowitz?

  Lock the doors to this room. Um, I had Jeremy on, on the podcast.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, cool.

• 48:12Josh Horowitz?

  He's amazing, obviously, of course. And it's funny, he talked about something that, like, when I was researching you, that you've kind of spoken about too, like, how early in his career, he thought like, he had to kind of suffer for his art a bit, and he's kind of come around to realize, like, it's kind of, it's not a unique thing. I think many young actors feel like, you kind of have to like, you feel it, and just like, be miserable. Is it safe to say like that, you kind of went through that similar kind of phase, and you're in a different place now where it's okay to? Be chill and not not injure yourself.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  I mean, acting is a weird job and you're sort of.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  I think sometimes can people can feel conflicted about it being a real job and maybe you feel like you have to suffer to make it worthy in a way. You gotta punch your, you know, car and really like hanging in there. I definitely, you know.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Just trying to hold myself up to like Marlon Brando and James Dean, you know, they, you know, you know, there's all, there's so much romanticism around these kinds of experiences. And.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  My first movie that I did was with Gene Wilder and I remember him telling me, and we were talking about. Different ways of acting and people staying in character and he said, you know, it's. Incredible for someone to go and stay in character for the whole day and be. And live that out and really be that person and transform into that person and live as that person through the center of everything. He said, what's more incredible is to do that. And then to go home to your family and be like a dad and a husband or a friend. And that really stayed with me. Although I was, I was not, I mean, I was too, I wasn't a dad or a husband at that point, but I mean. I, I, I, I think that's, I think, I think that's, I think that's pretty cool. I think that, you know, um, and.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Doing this play now, I mean, I've done, I don't know how many, I think I've done 60 or so of them. I got another. Hundred or performances to do.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Life is what feeds the performance. And if you're just living in the thing, you know, it's, it's really. You're not getting much back. You don't have much to draw from if you're just sort of staying in this character. For the whole, I mean, I don't, or staying in the play. I don't, for me, I'm like, I want to be out. I want to experience things. I want to read the news. I want to see what people are, I want to be involved in. The world and out in my community and, and, yeah, and when, and what's happening. And I think that's the only way. For an artist to be, I also think it's really funny, this quote, I don't know who said it. I think it was maybe. Robert Pattinson, but he said, how come whenever anyone's always like staying in character for like months at a time, why is that character always said fucking asshole?

• 51:00Josh Horowitz?

  You can be a nice guy.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, can't it be like, like Willy Wonka?

• 51:07Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you'd be committed. I mean, if you walked into a coffee shop and said, chocolate for everybody.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  But I, that was a very illustrative kind of, you know, he was, he put a good.

• 51:15Josh Horowitz?

  A dramatization of.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Of suffering and, you know, um, and I mean, I got a lot of thoughts about it. I also think that like to perform, whether it be in a musical arena or in a, in a, in a sports or, you know, I, you know, I'm not the only person. Relaxation is very, very important.

• 51:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  And if you're trying to like squeeze some kind of thing, some experience that you're trying to like really, really, like you're not.

• 51:42Josh Horowitz?

  You're not.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Open and it's, and it's, it's, it's, I've tried to do it many times. That is a hard hill to climb.

• 51:49Josh Horowitz?

  So it's funny. You mentioned one of your earliest co-stars, probably the first star you worked with, great Gene Wilder.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:54Josh Horowitz?

  When you look at Jeremy Allen White, do you see what the internet sees?

• 51:58Speaker 01

  I, I mean, I see a lot. I mean, there's a lot of kindness in both those men. Those, those, those guys have some beautiful hearts and Jeremy does have a serious set of eyes on him for sure.

• 52:09Josh Horowitz?

  Get lost in those.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:11Josh Horowitz?

  That's the real trick.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. He's such a, if I could just take one second, just extol like, he is such an amazing scene partner. And I've told him this before, but it was, it is like, you go into work with him and it's just, there's no pretension. It's just, he's right in there. And then it's just, he just lifts you up and you just kind of get sucked into the airstream of, of, of his performance. He's just like, take, really such, takes care of, of, of you as an actor. And I don't know if he's doing it on purpose, but it's sure, but it's sure appreciated, you know?

• 52:44Josh Horowitz?

  No, he's all, he's awesome. He, his hot pizza take he gave me was, um, he's not, he's not into the Chicago deep dish, which, uh, is controversial given where you guys.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  You know what, man? There's a lot of Chicagoans that don't like the deep dish.

• 52:58Josh Horowitz?

  Where, where are you at?

• 53:00Speaker 01

  No, I'm not, that ain't for me. Um, I like, uh, in Chicago, I like a tavern style where it's like really thin and they did do it. So you get little squares.

• 53:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Like they chop it up like it's a kid's party and I, I like that because it's a little, it's a little daintier.

• 53:16Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  But no, I'm not much of a, a deep dish guy.

• 53:19Josh Horowitz?

  Same. Too much, the bread ratio is all off for me. You want the.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know. I had, I mean, I, I would, my birthday is in March, and so I would often have my birthday in Chicago when we were shooting. And there was one particularly sad rainy snowy Chicago day where I found myself in the basement of a deep dish place, drinking beer by myself and eating deep dish for one.

• 53:45Josh Horowitz?

  The glamorous life of a movie star.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:49Josh Horowitz?

  Before I let you go, I realized we haven't even mentioned girls. I just want to mention it because, I mean, the staying power of that one, obviously, is remarkable as well. Lena just had her memoir out.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Really? Have you read it?

• 53:59Josh Horowitz?

  I haven't read it. I mean, I've seen her do some amazing interviews about it, but it seems, she's obviously such a talent. I mean, you, you, one of the talents, like, one of the challenges for an actor is jumping into something midstream. You jumped into that show third season, as I recall, right?

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Like, I think so. I think so.

• 54:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Was it, is that, is that a particular challenge? I mean, you had been doing it for a while by then, but like, is there security in knowing, oh, they know what they're doing here? Or is there a challenge in like, how am I going to fit into this thing that's already working?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Well, I was just involved in like, I had met Lena and Jenny, and we were pals, and we, we would have a lot of fun together and laugh together and cook together. And, and they kind of wrote this part for me, but, but it was never written as like, okay, you're gonna be here for the rest of, you're now a new member of the cast. It was a, it was, he was supposed to be in like, a couple of episodes. And then we, we just started having so much fun that they, it just kept extending and extending and extending. And that, and that was a collaborative, for me anyways, that was very much a collaborative set, the same way that the bear was. I felt very much like the three of us created that

• 55:10Speaker 01

  character together. And they gave me a lot of trust and, and we, we wrote together to some extent. And it was.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was just a lot of fun.

• 55:22Josh Horowitz?

  Did that character affect how people received you in the world, particularly women? Like, did they? I mean, they, people can separate, I hope, character from human being, but.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  I don't know. I find like when I'm in something that's on TV right now, right then, like, then it's like, oh, then there's like, does he, you know, or, you know, but then it's like something else is on TV and it's like,

• 55:47Josh Horowitz?

  short-term memory. All right, we can end with this.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 55:50Josh Horowitz?

  Profoundly random questions. We end every happy sad confused.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 55:53Josh Horowitz?

  Like this. Are you a dog or cat person?

• 55:55Speaker 01

  I'm a, I'm a cat dad, yeah.

• 55:57Josh Horowitz?

  Heard you're a cat.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  You're, you're softening me up for the hard hitters, I can tell.

• 56:00Josh Horowitz?

  No, no, that's, I mean, that one almost got Jessie Buckley canceled when she went off against cats.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 56:05Josh Horowitz?

  So that is deceptively a challenging one.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  I also don't subscribe to these kind of binaries. Like, I like dogs. I love dogs and cats, you know, but, but right now.

• 56:16Josh Horowitz?

  Factually.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  I, I, yeah, I, I love cats, yeah.

• 56:20Josh Horowitz?

  What do you collect?

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Um, bicycles, guitars.

• 56:24Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Um, old,

• 56:30Speaker 01

  like, Christian Dior button-down shirts from the eighties and nineties.

• 56:34Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:35Josh Horowitz?

  All right. Do you have a favorite video game of all time?

• 56:41Speaker 01

  What's it called?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  LoadRunner.

• 56:45Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, my God. I haven't thought of.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  This is like going back to like, like Atari, App, Apple, two.

• 56:51Josh Horowitz?

  Two D.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like California games.

• 56:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  You know, but I didn't really have, I, uh, my parents relented and I got like the original Game Boy and I like Castlevania.

• 57:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yep. Yeah, we're about the same age, so we've got the same reference points. Yeah.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Unfortunately, we went, my parents got me the Sega Master System, which sent me down the wrong path. I was never a Nintendo person.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  So what was, so what were you?

• 57:13Josh Horowitz?

  So it was like Metroid? And it was like, Tommy was sort of baseball was my, my game.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:18Josh Horowitz?

  He was Sonic, you know, but it was.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  It's a lonely path.

• 57:21Josh Horowitz?

  It was a lonely path. Here I am now.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:24Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, the Dakota Johnson memorial question, she asked me this, I ask everybody.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 57:28Josh Horowitz?

  Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Oh, um. I'll take the bee in the Fazul. I don't know. It sounds like it could be, you know.

• 57:39Josh Horowitz?

  Might get something out of it.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Change your mind, yeah.

• 57:41Josh Horowitz?

  Change your life.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:43Josh Horowitz?

  That is generally the sentiment.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Is that the sentiment?

• 57:46Josh Horowitz?

  Ninety percent, so.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Who goes for the beef mouthful of bees?

• 57:48Josh Horowitz?

  Can't recall. No one I would want to mention out loud because they're psychopaths.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like one of those. That's a good question. It's like two kinds of people kind of question, yeah.

• 57:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, short term, whatever versus, I mean, that's gonna fuck you.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  That gives me Candyman flashbacks.

• 58:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, yeah, totally.

• 58:05Josh Horowitz?

  What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 58:08Speaker 01

  My kids.

• 58:09Josh Horowitz?

  I would hope so. Just checking, just making sure.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  It's my kids on the lock screen and then as soon as I open it up, it's Yelena, my wife, my partner.

• 58:18Josh Horowitz?

  You're a good person. Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Um, somebody, I was picking my daughter up from soccer practice. And she was with her friends. This guy came out, he's like, oh, I'm such a big fan, such a big fan, man. He's like, I love your show. I watch it all the time. I love the one where you were at, uh. I don't know, he's named some pizza place. And I was like, I don't think you think. And he thought I was this guy who's like a pizza influencer.

• 58:49Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Who? I don't know. You know, I don't know. I can't remember the guy's name.

• 58:54Josh Horowitz?

  Dave Portnoy?

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, Dave Portnoy.

• 58:58Josh Horowitz?

  You don't want to be confused with Dave Portnoy.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Well, I'm being honest, man. I'm giving you the straight dope. I don't, I don't, you know.

• 59:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess I see it, but yeah, no. Okay, all right. Moving on. What's the worst noted director has ever given you?

• 59:11Speaker 01

  If I get a sense that a director's coming in with some bad stuff and it's a director that I don't, um. Really respect, I just pretend that I, I pretend to just take the hearing aids out and I just say, uh huh. Oh yeah, totally, totally. And then I just keep doing what I want to do.

• 59:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, I've heard that one too.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:26Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 59:28Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, and finally, in the spirit of Happy, Say Confused, who's an actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, better mood.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  Patricia Arquette.

• 59:37Josh Horowitz?

  Great.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:38Josh Horowitz?

  All the way back, what, True Romance to, you know.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  The whole thing. I mean, I wasn't a big medium fan, but, uh. But man, oh man, she can do no wrong. My lord, she's the best we have, yeah.

• 59:51Josh Horowitz?

  Movie that makes you sad?

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Um.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Stand by me.

• 59:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  I struggle with fine dining.

• 1:00:09Josh Horowitz?

  You can say that now that the bear is over. Now you're safe.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know. We'll see. Everything was good. It did okay. And then he just.

• 1:00:19Josh Horowitz?

  What a way to get canceled for not liking fine dining.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  No, I just can't sit at a restaurant that long.

• 1:00:24Josh Horowitz?

  Really? It's just a pay like you just wanna.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just like to. You know.

• 1:00:31Josh Horowitz?

  Got places to be.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  No, no, no, not in a rush. Just like to have fun.

• 1:00:35Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Okay, fair enough. No fine dining for Evan. Um, thank you, man, for making the time for this. I appreciate you. Congratulations. Everybody should check out. So it sounds like what 100 plus performances still to go on on Dog Day?

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Something like that.

• 1:00:47Josh Horowitz?

  All right, good luck.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  I've been told that I shouldn't think about the amount of shows. I should just think about the amount of weeks.

• 1:00:52Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, yeah, that's like.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Eight weeks. We got like 10 weeks or something like that.

• 1:00:57Josh Horowitz?

  Since you got this.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  I can do it on one foot.

• 1:01:00Josh Horowitz?

  Try that out. See what happens. Good luck with that. Um, everybody should check that out. They can. Gary, of course, is out now and the final season of The Bear and we got Avengers movies. You're a busy man.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Oh, I know what food is confusing to me. The tuna melt.

• 1:01:14Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, I'm not into that. No.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  People love it, man. And I respect, you know, everyone, it's a matter of taste, but I it's a real head scratcher for me.

• 1:01:23Josh Horowitz?

  Is it? What about just like the tuna fish on its own? Like, or?

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  I I'm not gonna get into the weeds with you, but it just seems like a strange thing to do to put some tuna on a piece and then just melt a bunch of cheese on it.

• 1:01:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you for saving the best for last.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, God.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  By the hair of my chinny chin chin.

• 1:01:41Josh Horowitz?

  We're gonna go watch Forks and eat tuna melts together now. Is that okay?

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, right now. Lock the doors.

• 1:01:46Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks, man. I appreciate you.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely.

• 1:02:02Speaker 07

  To do this by Josh.

• 1:02:08Speaker 07

  Do you ever watch a TV show set in a historical time period and think, how accurate is this really? But also, does it matter if it's accurate or not?

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  Nefertari TV is a new podcast about shows set in ancient times.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  This season, we're recapping every episode of the show Spartacus: Blood and Sand.

• 1:02:29Speaker 07

  I'm Anne Foster, and I have never seen this show before.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  And I'm Gina Berry, and I have watched this show maybe too many times.

• 1:02:37Speaker 07

  Join us every other Monday on the Nefertari TV podcast as we discuss the real history behind Spartacus: Blood and Sand.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Follow Nefertari TV, that's N-E-F-E-R-T-V, wherever you get your podcasts.