NFL Draft Notes, Knicks and Nuggets Red Flags, Atlanta’s Moment, and Vrabel’s Mess | With Rob Mahoney and Sean Fennessey

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons talks about what a great sports week it is before giving his thoughts on the NFL draft and the Mike Vrabel situation (2:28). Then, Rob Mahoney joins to react to the Timberwolves tying up the series against the Nuggets before recapping the Raptors taking Game 3 against the Cavs and the Hawks taking a 2-1 lead against the Knicks (24:30). Finally, Sean Fennessey hops on to discuss the Knicks' side of the series, the Lakers-Rockets matchup, and Sean’s new newsletter, ‘Projections’ (53:28). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney and Sean Fennessey Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo #ULTRACourtside could get you closer to the game! https://michelobultra.com/courtside MICHELOB ULTRA® COURTSIDE ’25 to ’26. No Purchase Necessary. Open to US residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026 Multiple entry periods. See Official Rules at https://michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket, whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York, now playing in theaters nationwide.

• 0:41Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. We are also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did Kindergarten Cop, which is on Netflix. The movie we're doing on Monday next week, Ghostbusters, also on Netflix. And we're doing a bunch of comedies in May that are on Netflix that we'll go into as we head into next month. Speaking of podcasts, Legata, fourth episode went up. This is one of the best things we've put up in a while. I've been talking about on this podcast, but we have four episodes. There's seven total. It's a narrative series about the 70s and 80s and cocaine in Miami and Colombia. Please go check it out. Also, check out Sean Fennessey's new newsletter, it's called Projections.

• 1:25Bill Simmons?

  He put up a really great 4,000-word post today. He's coming on this podcast a little bit later. Rob Mahoney, we talked about the Wolves and the Nuggets series, which is looking pretty grim. We talked about the rise of the Hawks and all the other basketball stuff. Then we brought Sean in to talk about his beloved Knicks and OKC and the Lakers. And we talked about movies and TV and all kinds of things. So that's the tail end of the podcast. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back after Pearl Jam, and I'm going to talk about the NFL Draft and the TV night in general. That's next. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite

• 2:09Bill Simmons?

  team win is winning along with them. FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during their playoff run. Build a same-game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip-off. Don't forget with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21-plus select states or 18-plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat. Connecticut.

• 3:03Bill Simmons?

  All right, unbelievable TV night tonight. There's always been a great argument about April versus October for best sports month, which I've covered in multiple mailbags back when my fingers worked. And I think the answer is probably October because you really get hardcore NFL and there's just games constantly and the World Series and everything. But this specific week where you have basketball playoffs, round one, there's games every night, NHL, round one, games every night, you have the NFL Draft, all the weed up for it, and then you have baseball going on too. So I had, this is one of the rare nights where I had to actually break out this big iPad here for a fourth TV because I wanted to watch Buffalo and the Bruins. I wanted to watch two basketball games.

• 3:47Bill Simmons?

  I wanted to watch the NFL Draft. I would have cared about Red Sox Yankees if the Red Sox were good this year, but that's a sunk cost, selling team John Henry. Anyway, I have some NFL Draft thoughts and I want to talk about Vrabel at the end. So in no particular order, pretty boring draft.

• 4:07Bill Simmons?

  I think next year's draft is going to be awesome. So this was almost like the appetizer leading to the entree. Like, we knew who the number one pick was going to be for, for three months. Vegas moves into the Mendoza era, and we'll see, we'll see how good he's going to be. The only certainty is that Tom Brady and Mendoza will probably film some of the most awkward social media content that God has ever created. Those two guys together, anything's possible. I can't even fathom how wooden some of the interactions are going to be. Can't wait. Big winners, I guess the Giants, because Reese fell to five. A lot of people, including our own Danny Kelly, had him as the number one player

• 4:48Bill Simmons?

  in the draft. Not even 21 years old yet. Awesome pass rusher, you know, just do it all defender, potentially. Who knows with these guys? But, uh, but he fell to five, and then they got an offensive lineman, 10. It did seem like there was a moment when they were going to get Downs, the safety who Dallas took at number 11, and they were going to get Reese and Downs. And I think if you gave true serum to every Giants fan, even though the offensive line was the smart pick for them, if you gave true serum to the Giants fans, doubling down on an already potentially pretty good defense with, with Reese and with Downs, I think they all would have signed up for that. And in general, I just think the Giants, um, I, I said this on Tuesday's pod, I think they are looming

• 5:32Bill Simmons?

  as this year's Patriots. Just that worst of first, easy schedule, added a bunch of guys, new coach, they check every box. So they took, uh, they took the offensive lineman with the herniated disc. I'm sure it'll be fine. What could go wrong with a herniated disc? Nine offensive linemen in the first round. We talked about this on Tuesday's pod. The over under was seven and a half, and that kept moving up. They really could have made eight and a half, and I think it was, ended up being nine anyway. So the Giants, they were fun to talk about. Ty Simpson goes to the Rams at number 13, and it was one of those where if he didn't go 13, he might have fallen all the way to the end of the first round. Sean McVay is one of those. I'm not trading down, I'm Sean McVay. No way.

• 6:18Bill Simmons?

  He is Sean McVay, he's won a Super Bowl. I probably would have traded down. So this is one of those where this guy, this guy does not check a lot of the quarterback boxes, like career starts, he's not big enough, was bad down the stretch, but people were then decided it was more his team's fault that he wasn't that good. And yet, you go to the Rams and you just feel like the guy's been minted. I was trying to think of other, it's almost like a movie director. You know, if you're in like a Chris Nolan movie, you're just, you're in a Chris Nolan movie, it's gonna be fine. And maybe that's the way this will work out with Simpson going to McVay, sitting for a year.

• 6:59Bill Simmons?

  I don't mind the whole not traded down thing personally. I do think we get a little carried away with that. Where if they go from 13 to 18 and pick up a third round pick next year, you know, and then they take him there, then it's a brilliant move. But if you just take him at 13 because you wanted him and you were afraid somebody else was gonna take him, not brilliant.

• 7:18Bill Simmons?

  I didn't mind it. It felt about, I don't know, 10 picks too high, but whatever. I like Styles to Washington was great. Sonny Styles, the linebacker, perfect pick. Gave the Washington fans like a signature guy. And then Downs to Dallas was another great one. I really enjoyed Arizona taking Love, the running back, at number three, which was a classic, we don't know who to take here, fuck it, let's just take the top guy on our board. The last four top three running backs taken, Ronnie Brown, number two, Reggie Bush, number two, Barkley, number two, and Trent Richardson, number three. That's 25%. Really small sample size, but their quarterback's Jacoby Brissette, and he's being backed up by Gardner Minshew.

• 8:02Bill Simmons?

  And I don't think they can really block, and they're in a division with the Rams and the Niners and the Seahawks, so good luck to Love.

• 8:09Bill Simmons?

  I was kind of hoping he would fall to the Titans, but he ends up going there and Titans took a receiver.

• 8:16Bill Simmons?

  Another big thing that happened, Lemon goes to Philly at 20, they trade up for the receiver from USC, which basically confirms that AJ Brown's going to be in the Patriots. Because they've just spent all this capital on receiver. We get to watch another Eagles wide receiver slowly become unhappy and lose the will to live on the Philadelphia Eagles. But AJ Brown, sounds like will be going to the Patriots. I don't know what the trade is, I really hope it's not next year's number one, because I'm not convinced the Patriots are going to be very good next year. There's a lot of bad signs against it, including a Super Bowl loss, Super Bowl hangover, all that stuff, first place schedule. I'm not sure you know the story that's happening with our coach, but it's not good, but a lot of bad signs.

• 9:01Bill Simmons?

  So I hope it's the 2028 first round pick. More stuff from the draft, Jets ended up with three first rounders, they took Bailey second, pass rusher, I thought they should have taken Reese. They took Siddiq, the tight end at 16, and then they traded back up into the first round to take Cooper, the excellent Indiana receiver, I really like him at 30. So, great draft on paper. They did trade two of their best players to get two of the picks that then led to them coming out of the first round being like, we got, we got three starters in the first round. Well, it's because you traded two. It's like optical illusion, but I didn't mind the draft, I thought they should have taken Reese. Kansas City got a cornerback, they traded up for that.

• 9:44Bill Simmons?

  New England traded up for Lomu, the tackle, who I guess is going to be the right tackle from Utah, but traded up, jumped Kansas City and the Niners. The Patriots never jump teams, so that was fun. So they gave up a fourth rounder in that pick, and then Mike Vrabel is also giving up the fourth round on Saturday. Tennessee took Tate fourth, so we'll get, on the glass half-full, Ward to Tate connection, sounds fun. Red flag that he was the second best receiver at Ohio State, and somehow went number one in this draft. I got slate, slate, slate, Marv Williams flashbacks with that. Remember when Marv Williams got taken ahead of Chris Paul in the 2005 NBA draft, even

• 10:29Bill Simmons?

  though he didn't start for North Carolina? I was like a voice crying in the wilderness, this seems wrong, why didn't this guy start for North Carolina? How is he going to be the number two pick in the draft? The other one that worried me was...

• 10:44Bill Simmons?

  Tyson, the wide receiver, who's stud but injury prone. And I talked on Tuesday about the different types of wide receivers. The injury prone stud has broken a lot of hearts over the years and sometimes made some teams happy. You just never know.

• 10:59Bill Simmons?

  He goes to the Saints, a team that plays in the Superdome. And has a pretty legendary situation with the Saints and the Pelicans. And they cheap out on a training staff, medical staff stuff. And it just feels like a good luck all the way around. I don't know if I would have taken this guy if I'm the Saints. But I guess Chris Alave has somebody to play cards with when he's in the trainer's room.

• 11:28Bill Simmons?

  The biggest thing I noticed from the draft, other than I don't really understand ESPN's strategy of having the college guys on ABC and then whatever that Mike Greenberg thing was on ESPN, but not just using the NFL Live people, which is a really good show. I just maybe would have used those people. But Goodell's hugs.

• 11:53Bill Simmons?

  This has been weird the entire time he's been doing it. And there's been a million comments and a million videos. And I'm not breaking any new ground here.

• 12:03Bill Simmons?

  The hugs have gotten longer. I think he's tried to figure out how he can. I'd love for somebody to break this down. The hugs from 10, 12 years ago to the hugs in 2026. Because I think he's holding on longer. I think he's trying to make them more meaningful. And they're starting to take on the vibes of somebody who's reuniting with their son, who just did a five year tour in Vietnam in the early 70s and came home. And they never thought they'd see their son again. And they see them and they're just hugging for 10, 12 seconds. And that's how long these hugs are taking now. And I just don't understand it. I know it's his thing.

• 12:44Bill Simmons?

  It's pretty weird, and I think we're forgetting how weird it is. I just think it's strange that he hugs 32 people for 10 seconds apiece, it feels like. I don't know, and I also don't know, it's almost like wrestling. When the moves in wrestling, they kept going higher and higher with the jumps. And then eventually you have people jumping off 25 foot ladders and shit like that. And you're like, all right, somebody's gonna break their neck down. I don't know how far, how much further he can push the hugs.

• 13:11Bill Simmons?

  I guess, I guess we'll, we'll be on pins and needles trying to find out.

• 13:17Bill Simmons?

  The, the Steelers were up and it was in Pittsburgh and they had over 320,000 people there. I ask this every year, I have no idea why anybody would want to go to the draft.

• 13:28Bill Simmons?

  I'm trying to think at any point in my life when I was the craziest about sports, even when, you know, I was going to Yankee Stadium and sitting in the upper deck, wearing a Red Sox shirt and Bruins pants.

• 13:45Bill Simmons?

  And just was a lunatic. I don't even think then I would have wanted to go to the draft. I just don't really understand why people want to go. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd love if you can feel free to email me at bs podcast 33 and explain it. I just don't get it. I don't really want to do anything that has 320,000 people in it, but I'm also old. But anyway, they played Renegade by Styx. That, that's, they've kind of, the Steelers have kind of played a pretty good song. Can't, can't kill them on that. And they got the crowd into an absolute frenzy because the Steelers are picking and Jerome Bettis was coming out waving a towel. And then they took a left tackle. And I always think that's funny when that happens. I always really enjoyed that. All right, gotta talk about Vrabel really quick. You know,

• 14:29Bill Simmons?

  the story happened, Diana Rossini's been on this podcast before. I don't know her very well, I've only met her one time in New Orleans.

• 14:38Bill Simmons?

  And Vrabel is the coach of my favorite team. So this half, the whole story happens and I was debating whether to talk about it on the pod and it's just like, ah, they're both married, both have kids, like, let's kind of see where this goes. And I thought I would maybe cover it in a mailbag or something. And then this week it goes to a whole other level, to the point that it really did become a football story this week. Cause for one thing, he's missing the third day of the draft, where the Patriots had eight picks, now they have seven because they traded the fourth rounder. But uh, he's, he stayed there today for the draft, he's there tomorrow. And then he's gone for the weekend because he's got some family counseling stuff and uh,

• 15:21Bill Simmons?

  did a press conference today and basically was like, I have to do this. Um, you know, he was like, family first and football respectable. Um, I don't know why I couldn't have started on a Sunday, but um, that made it more of a football story. And then the fact that this seemed to be going on for um, a long time. Um, you know, the, almost like that movie, same time next year, Cross with Brokeback Mountain or something. But um, at some point, this became one of the craziest Boston stories I think ever. I don't, I can't tell you how many texts I've gotten about it, how many I've sent about it, like just trying to figure out like, is this story gonna get worse? And it actually feels like it, like there's more

• 16:06Bill Simmons?

  coming. And it feels like, you know, the evidence is whether it was an on again, off again thing or whatever, but they clearly had some sort of relationship and she was covering the team and he was coaching the Titans and the, and the Patriots, she was covering the league. Um, and the, you know, the Athletic got involved, they stood up, the Athletic and the Patriots both stood up for them because they were telling them, you know, now this story is nothing, it's a nothing burger, which you're gonna do, you're trying to protect your family.

• 16:37Bill Simmons?

  But then it was clear there was way more to the story and now the tone has shifted. And it just feels like if, you know, all the Patriots fans that I'm talking to and, you know, even somebody like my dad and we talk about it, we're just like, this feels like a terrible omen just for the season, not to mention all the personal stuff. There's no way this isn't going to affect the coach. There's no way this isn't going to affect the team. Also coming off some of the other stuff that happened and the way variable carried himself last year is like such a leader and the Patriots are a family and is this going to seem genuine now? And it's just one of those, it's one of those sports stories that just sucks in every capacity other than, you know, unless you're on social media getting

• 17:19Bill Simmons?

  jokes out of it. But in terms of like the craziest Boston stories ever, which I really tried to put some time into thinking about, and I didn't want to put like dark stuff like Reggie Lewis, things like that, but just the, the kind of what the fuck, the WTF Boston sports stories, a really great one. When I was a, when I was a kid, the Celtics won the 1976 title. And then they let Paul Silas go, who was their best rebounder, was my dad's favorite player, and Dave Cowens, the center, who was, you know, one of the best players in the league, just retired the next season in his prime and sat out like the first 35 games. And at one point, I can't remember, I think he drove a cab

• 18:03Bill Simmons?

  one night, but then at one point he took a job working for Suffolk Downs, the racetrack. And this was just being covered day to day in Boston. Like, I'm trying to think if this happened now, because the players didn't make that much money back then, but I can't describe how fucking bonkers this was when it was happening. Like Dave Cowens, he's just going to retire? It's like Dave Cowens took a job at Suffolk Downs? That story was nuts. The Larry Bird 1985 bar fight that happened in the playoffs that we didn't find out about until all of a sudden he was having issues with this thumb. And he was the best player in the league and he was in the hottest streak he'd ever had. And then all of a sudden, his, his shot was going sideways and he had an obviously swollen thumb. And then it turned out he was in a bar fight in Boston.

• 18:48Bill Simmons?

  And then it got reported by Dan Shaughnessy and everybody got mad at Shaughnessy that he kind of, um, kind of told a tale about Bird, but actually it was a real story and he should have written about it. And it was one of the things that cost him the title. That was weird, but it turned out he punched some dude in a bar. Paul Pierce getting stabbed was awful. Oil Can Boyd, um, which was one of our best pitchers there in the 1986 season when we went to the World Series and then had 13 pitches to win the World Series and, uh, and, um, I don't know if you remember, but we fucking lost the World Series to the Mets.

• 19:28Bill Simmons?

  But Oil Can Boyd, he did make the All-Star team and spun out and disappeared and was actually on the cover of Sports Illustrated. And there are all these rumors that he was doing drugs and all that, and he was just really unraveled in all these different ways. And then, um, came back and pitched and then became so unreliable that they couldn't pitch him in, in game seven. And, um, it was one of the many reasons why they lost to the Mets. And in 2012, Oil Can Boyd admitted that he was smoking crack every day during the season. So, uh, our fears were valid, but that was just really weird looking back. Ime Udoka and the Celtics, that happened recently and that was crazy.

• 20:09Bill Simmons?

  Irving Frye missed the 1985 AFC Championship game. He was not our best receiver, but one of our best offensive players and he was a kick returner. He was the number one pick in the 84 draft. And he missed it because he had a hand laceration and then it turned out his, his wife stabbed him in the kitchen in the hand. And it came this story that came out and that story was nuts. But obviously the winner here is Aaron Hernandez and we don't need to go into this. But. This Vrabel Racini story is really nuts and it's been interesting to watch everybody who has a platform try to figure out ways to talk about it because at one point, it didn't really feel like a story, but now it is.

• 20:51Bill Simmons?

  And it's undeniable. And even today, like I was really convinced that he was either going to step aside for two months or maybe even step down. And this is a guy that completely rejuvenated the team, turned the culture around, created something that seemed really substantial. And if you had told me in January, we'd have questions about Drake May and Mike Vrabel, that would have seemed insane. I don't have any questions about Drake May, by the way. I think the weird thing about this story is I don't know if it's over. Is there more stuff coming? We're already seeing like today, there was 2020 photos from back then. And then there was like, people are, it seems like they're going through their iPhones like, oh yeah, I think I was at a bar one night. I noticed.

• 21:35Bill Simmons?

  So who knows if this is going to keep going, but Vrabel, his demeanor at the press conference today, he just looked like he had been hit by a truck. And it's really, really strange. So we'll, we'll see how this goes, but I felt like I had to, had to mention, this is about as crazy of a Boston sports story as I can remember. And we'll see how it plays out, I guess. All right. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna come back and we're gonna talk basketball with Rob Meloni. Are the Nuggets, how much trouble are they? That's next. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by my friends at FanDuel. NBA fans, this is your reminder to check in daily because every day during the playoffs,

• 22:18Bill Simmons?

  which have been really fun so far, FanDuel is serving up a happy hour. We're talking special drops you won't want to miss from profit boosts to bonus bets and more. And the best part, it's every single day, including today. I am probably going back to the well with the Celtics. I had everything in place for game two, except the part that the Celtics didn't actually beat the Sixers at home, but I like their money line in a revenge thing. So I'm going to try to figure out a couple of things to put with that, including probably Tatum to be 10 plus rebounds again. Check for a new reward every single day of the NBA playoffs. Don't miss your shot to get a little extra. Out of the action. Head to fando.com/BS to get started. 21 plus, select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming.

• 23:01Bill Simmons?

  Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to by Michelob Ultra. You know what my favorite thing about the playoffs is? I like during, and it's usually maybe a game four, might even be a game five. Game seven, everyone's nervous. There's a different level of energy. But game four, game five, for one of the two teams, there's this realization with like five minutes left in the fourth quarter. What's like, oh, our fate is, is suddenly in real flux right now. Who's stepping up? What are we going to do? Let's calm down. Can we rise to the moment or are we going to shrink from it?

• 23:45Bill Simmons?

  And you can kind of see it with different teams. It's definitely like, for instance, going to happen in this Denver Minnesota series. It's going to be a moment in one of the later games when all of a sudden either Minnesota's taken it from Denver and at some point, somebody in Denver is going to have to hit a shot. And you're going to look around and go, who's going to do it? Or in Minnesota's case, maybe Denver is, is punching them back. And now Edwards has to step up or DiFenzenzo. And you just never know, and you never know how somebody's going to respond to pressure. But that's why we love the playoffs every spring. It's as great as opening up a Michelob Ultra, a nice cold one. Crisp, refreshing, the ultimate prize. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA,

• 24:30Bill Simmons?

  they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, custom merch and more. You could be at one of those games when the pressure rises. Michelob Ultra, superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 25-26. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2025. Ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. All right, we're recording a little after 9:00 PM Pacific time. Incredible sports night. Rob Mahoney is here. We're going to talk basketball first.

• 25:14Bill Simmons?

  I thought we'd be here under better circumstances, Rob. Wolves Nuggets game three. Jaden McDaniels talking all kinds of trash about the Nuggets defense. And then all of a sudden, Aaron Gordon gets scratched. It's like, uh oh. And then Minnesota just kicked their ass again. And I, as a longtime Joker fan, Joker and Curry, my two favorite non Celtics. I just like watching them play basketball. I don't think I'm going to be potentially watching him in about 10 days.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  It's heartbreaking for you, for many of us. I have to say though, you know, we give Jokic a lot of benefit of the doubt when things like this happen. When the circumstances aren't ideal, when guys are scratched out of the lineup, he gets a lot of leeway. His inability over these last two games to get anything going whatsoever against Rudy Gobert is a massive problem. And I think it's fair to hold him to a different standard. Like we talk about him as one of these stars who doesn't need ideal circumstances to be effective, who doesn't need everything to be just so to win. And yet in this series against a opponent like Minnesota, it kind of feels that way.

• 26:17Bill Simmons?

  It's tough because he can't make threes. They're not going in.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 26:20Bill Simmons?

  And Minnesota is just doing one on one with him versus Joker. And if he's not making the threes, that means he either has to beat him off the dribble, which is hard, or he has to post him up, which is really hard. And they're willing to live like, I think he had, he had like 23 shots pretty early in the third quarter of this game. That's not what he, that's not how he wants to play. That's not how Denver wants to play, but they've just made the decision like, yeah, Joker, knock yourself out. Take 30 shots. If you're not making threes, you're probably going to go like 12 for 30 and that's great for us. So the Gordon thing, you know, I could say, I did a thing on Tuesday about it, about, uh, I didn't like the way he looked in game two at all.

• 27:02Bill Simmons?

  I didn't really know fully what the injury was, but he clearly wasn't himself. And, you know, unfortunately every team has their superpower guy. Like I, I think for the Celtics, it's white. They're gonna win the title. He's gonna have to shoot better and play better than he is. I think for the Knicks, it's Ananobi. If you go on down the line, everybody has the one guy.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 27:21Bill Simmons?

  And I think for the Nuggets, it's Gordon. And without him and without Peyton Watson, I don't really see a path unless there's a corresponding Timberwolves injury.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Well, especially with Gordon, even when he was out there but wasn't himself, the concept of him was enough to be a deterrent for a lot of the other things that the Wolves might throw at you defensively versus a game like this. And it's because he's such an important shooter for them. He's really the piece that elevates like the two man Murray Jokic stuff into like a three man action that's really sophisticated and really hard to stop.

• 27:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  He's the connector of so much of what they try to run. And so not having him out there, you saw it in the first half, like just the drop off from going to from Aaron Gordon to Cam Johnson, Spencer Jones, Christian Brown, I think combined for two total points in the first half between the three of them. Minnesota can just sit in every passing lane, clog up everything that that Denver's trying to run. It's it's just, it feels like a nonstarter in a lot of ways. And I say that knowing that Jokic is one of the games like great, like cerebral thinkers and problem solvers in a way that we would expect him to have a solution to this. And right now, it just looks like he doesn't really have many answers.

• 28:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and he looked a just a whiff defeated during this game, too.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:29Bill Simmons?

  I've seen him, there's versions of him when he knows like, all right, guys, let's go. And maybe he'll be like that in game four. But this game, he really felt like he was trying to problem solve. And when he can't make threes, I think it's gonna be really hard. Ah, we talked too much about Denver without talking enough about Minnesota. McDaniels. McDaniels, if CJ McCollum wasn't in the playoffs, would be the breakout star of the playoffs.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:52Bill Simmons?

  Even though he's done versions of this before. But he's been, I didn't vote for him for either team for all defense, did you?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  I did not. To be honest, in the regular season, I thought he was like a little more up and down than normal.

• 29:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, so were the Timberwolves.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Fair.

• 29:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Uh, when he's playing like this and Ant, even though he's clearly not 100%, but the defense was going around, then Io, which was the best move of the trade deadline, um, other than maybe Kobe White. And, you know, they had no point guard. They were on the Rob Dillingham, washed up Mike Conley, Bones Highland roller coaster at that spot and sometimes not even playing a point guard.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  They and we are still on the Bones Highland roller coaster.

• 29:33Bill Simmons?

  I know.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  I, I want to give Bones an apology because he's just been straight up like a legit playoff performer for them. It's certainly miles ahead of whatever they would have gotten from Rob Dillingham at this stage.

• 29:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. The concept of Bones Highland was always what we're actually watching in this Minnesota series where it's like, ah, that 30 footer might go in. Oh, it did. Uh, oh, he's talking all kinds of shit, even though he has seven points. Um, this is kinda what his destiny was. Now, of course he left Denver because he didn't really like playing with the Joker and Murray and that seemed like a failure of an IQ test, but maybe, maybe, maybe Bones found his way. Uh, Minnesota, I would call them the rope and dope, the rope and dope Timberwolves.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 30:17Bill Simmons?

  Where I don't know what to expect from them game to game, week to week. There were three different times during this season where I'm like, here we go. I even have a 12 to one Timberwolves title bet that I made in February and they immediately went on like a seven game losing streak. Um, they're just all over the map. I don't think Chris Finch has aged, I think, six years in the last two.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Oh, easily.

• 30:39Bill Simmons?

  And the frustrating thing about Minnesota and the reason we talked about them so much during the season is they can do this. They can do what we just saw in the last couple of games. They can get to this level. So why? Why, why is it a backs to the wall thing with them? And is it sustainable for you?

• 30:57Speaker 01

  I mean, everything you just described says it's not perfectly sustainable. And even in this game, like they played an amazing first half and then had moments in the second half where they were just fouling a bunch, like doing the kinds of things that you might do to let a team like the Nuggets back in the game. They were just so far ahead by that point. And I think you're spot on about Jokic in particular, looking a little bit defeated, looking like they're just gonna kind of punt this game and move on.

• 31:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  You have to believe in the Wolves because of this high end potential though, because they do have this in them. And I want to say in particular, have this kind of game in them when it wasn't like Ant was amazing. It wasn't like Julius Randall was unbelievable. It was just a collective defensive performance that was as much about, you know, leading scorer Io De Sumnu as it was Dante DiVincenzo, as it was Jaden McDaniels, as it was Rudy Gobert. Like they were all tethered together in a way that's really, really tough to beat.

• 31:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Denver had six points with like two minutes left in the first quarter. Timberwolves weren't even shooting like that well. It wasn't like they were blowing it up offensively, but the defense was just awesome. I don't really understand it. I saw them in person play the Clippers right after the trade deadline when they had just gotten Io. And they looked awesome. And there was like specific stretches. I remember leaving the game like, wow, that's like, watch out for that team. That might even been the day I made the bet. And then like a week later, they played the Clippers again and they were down 30 in the first half. And that was when they went into one of their many tailspins during the thing. But it was like, what? I just saw you guys a week ago and you seem like you had your shit together.

• 32:27Bill Simmons?

  Um, this got bad enough for Denver that I was wondering if they were gonna go twin towers with Joker and Valanciunas.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know. Valanciunas feels kind of unplayable in this series at this point.

• 32:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, but that's, that's when, when we're talking about searching for answers. My mind went there for about 20 seconds.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  That's a dark place.

• 32:48Bill Simmons?

  What would that look like?

• 32:50Speaker 01

  At this point, I think I'd be more comfortable maxing out the Zeke Najee minutes than I would making some more space for Valanciunas. It just doesn't feel like he has much of a spot in this matchup.

• 32:59Bill Simmons?

  No, I don't think so. I was, I was trying to figure out any way that they could put a second big body out there to take some, some pressure off the Joker.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:08Bill Simmons?

  That wasn't happening.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  I think, like, it's a little simplistic, but with this roster constructed as it is, like, the only way you're gonna get offensive flow is if Jokic and Murray just play a lot better than this. And they're just gonna have to do that against hellacious defensive pressure that's attached to them every step of the way. It's gonna be incredibly difficult if Gordon can't go, but

• 33:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  None of these other guys, like, create flow for your offense. They just draft off of everything that Jokic and Murray usually create for them. And so it's not a surprise to see the entire offense going gummy, uh, when you remove that, like, critical spacing and flow element in Aaron Gordon from the mix.

• 33:42Bill Simmons?

  Hmm. And they unlocked a couple of things. Like, they're just gonna be in Murray's face, the

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:47Bill Simmons?

  94 feet, that's just how they're gonna play. They're gonna, it seems like they wanna run after every rebound, especially when Io's out there, like, they just wanna go. Um, and he's trying to get down there all the time.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. When Io and Dante are out there together, like, both of those guys, just like by the way they play, rev up everyone around them. And the amplifying effect of both of them on the floor at the same time is really awesome and really special. And I think maybe kind of insulates them a little bit from some of their more wolvesy up and down qualities, right? Like, the offense is never gonna be super precise in terms of how they execute. They're always gonna be a little bit vulnerable to that.

• 34:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  But if, when you do go on the runs, you add four points to that run because Io Dosunnu came up with two steals in the process, then it's like, you can weather the down spells a little bit better.

• 34:33Bill Simmons?

  Io played 31 minutes today and had a 25 and 9, was 10 for 15, got to the line six times.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 34:40Bill Simmons?

  The Bulls were like, ah, take him.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, why would you want a player like this to be a part of your future? What would, what would be the point of that?

• 34:47Bill Simmons?

  Especially when you see him in person, like, he's a big dude. He's not a point guard. Like, he's big shoulders, looks like he's about 6'3", 6'4", um, can switch on anybody and is just really impressive. So when they play, when they have him, I'd love to see the, I haven't looked at the five man lineups, but when it's McDaniel's, Gobert, Dante, Edwards, and then Io.

• 35:10Bill Simmons?

  That's a lineup that I feel like could hang in the next couple of rounds. Ant's gonna be the big question, because you know, it seems like he's stubbornly playing through something, but he's flexibly like going down and playing with it and looking at it. And I don't know, this is a long haul. We're in week two of a, well, how many weeks are we going here, 12? Not great.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's not fully himself for sure. They're gonna need, as these games get a little bit more competitive than this one, like the best of Julius Randall a little bit more often than they might otherwise, just because of whatever Ant has left at this point.

• 35:45Bill Simmons?

  Game 82, Denver has a chance to just roll over against San Antonio, get to the four seed and play Houston. I kinda like that they said fuck it with the Denver Nuggets. On the other hand, probably better off if they're playing that messed up Rockets team. And it switches two series because it gave the Lakers life.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  True.

• 36:05Bill Simmons?

  They would have no chance against this Minnesota team. And now Reeves is coming back and we're talking about that in a second. But Aaron Gordon, this is his 12th year. He's played 756 games, 68 games. This is the first time I started thinking about a finish line with this Nuggets run.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:23Bill Simmons?

  Where Gordon, who I think has just had a lot of, nothing like a catastrophic injury, but some mileage and some dings and some banks on his body. And we might have seen the best version of him. We might see a 90% version of him, but.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 36:40Bill Simmons?

  So you have that, you have Joker, who's been dominating the 2020s. You have Murray with some miles on him. He had a knee surgery. Like I am a little worried about the long term with this team if they can't get out of this series.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there are parts of Aaron Gordon's game that are gonna be just fine as he diminishes ever so slightly from, I don't know, one of like seven most athletic people on the planet into the like top 25 most athletic people on the planet. Like he's such a smart positional defender. He knows how to rotate. He knows how to communicate. Like he's so good at tethering in to his teammates on both sides of the ball. But they also rely on him to do superhuman things all the time to guard up and down the positional spectrum, especially to like cross match against other bigs and really like be a bully in a bunch of different ways. And that's tough if you're coming up with calf injuries and hamstring injuries all the time. Like you have to be really explosive to do the best Aaron Gordon stuff. And I don't know how long that will be a reasonable ask.

• 37:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, we'll see. I don't want to pronounce the Nuggets dead.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 37:41Bill Simmons?

  Game four, I think is the series for them. I don't think they can win three straight with with a banged up Gordon. So if they fall down 3-1, even though five and seven are in Denver, that seems too tall of a task. Minnesota is too good defensively. So everything will come down to game four and the NBA already played their Scott Foster card tonight. So, uh, there you go. Uh, one last thing. A little bit of a legacy series for our guy Rudy.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 38:12Bill Simmons?

  I was looking it up. So he's made a second team all NBA and two third teams. He's been defensive player of the year four times. First time, first team all D7. Career is basically 13 and 12 with two blocks. Uh, he's played 89 playoff games, two conference finals, 12 and 11 in the playoffs. With the declining line for Hall of Fame players in the NBA as, as we've continued to make it pretty blurry what a Hall of Fame player is, I actually think there's a chance he gets in.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  I, I think he's absolutely getting in. He's a four time defensive player of the year.

• 38:49Bill Simmons?

  It is. It's hard for me to wrap my head around it. I think he's in. I think it's gonna happen.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Now, I do think a series like this could change just the way a lot of people talk about him, right? In terms of the playoff liability, we've seen, I think, some very specific moments where he was taking, taken out of the game and like, again, very, very specific circumstances. And that has been overblown into, oh, you can't keep him on the floor in high leverage, uh, like playoff situations. That was never really the case. A lot of the teams that he was on that faltered defensively were more about like what perimeter guys couldn't hold down their spot and Rudy being overstretched maybe a little bit. But he's one of the best defensive players of his generation, if not all time. He's a winning player through and through. He's helped a bunch of different, like at least these two different franchises at this point. I think he's, he's kind of a shoe in based on the accolades alone.

• 39:38Bill Simmons?

  So the reason I don't think he's a shoe in, although you never know with the line these days, is that there's just a lot of good players that are going to be popping in and the careers are longer. And we're going to see people with, I think, better credentials. Like, because Draymond's another one that I, I actually think Draymond is more realistic to get in than Rudy because of, of all the titles and all the finals and the playoffs, stuff like that.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 40:00Bill Simmons?

  But just think, if you go through the teams and it's like, well, Curry, Klay, Draymond, they're all getting in. Westbrook and Durant, they're getting in. Tatum and Brown, they're probably getting in. Like, you go on down the line, it's like, it's just a lot of guys. So I guess it would depend on how many, how many they do. But yeah, it was the first time I was watching it, I was like, wow, Rudy's really kind of cementing a Hall of Fame case out of nowhere. We'll do quickly Raptors Cavs.

• 40:28Bill Simmons?

  Probably the best game of Scotty Barnes' career.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  He was awesome.

• 40:32Bill Simmons?

  Maybe the best game of RJ Barrett's career. They both had 33.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Both had a good series, to be honest. Like, even though the Cavs overall have clearly been up and mostly down, but they have not been the problem. They have been rock solid, I would say, throughout these first three.

• 40:45Bill Simmons?

  And they got a big Murray Boils, little Jameson battle.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  He's back.

• 40:50Bill Simmons?

  Hit some closing threes today. It turned out it's not the series for Brandon Ingram or Jakob Pertle. I don't know if there's ever a series for Jakob Pertle, but it's not the series for Brandon Ingram for some reason, which is weird to me, because I thought he would have some good matchups. But to me, this is way more a story of the Cavs and all of the issues I had with them as a real contender. I just don't think they're good enough defensively. I don't trust the Mitchell Harden. Just, Mitchell today was just...

• 41:21Bill Simmons?

  For him, for somebody that was a first team all NBA guy on some ballots and a fifth place MVP guy, it was just a no show in a game three that it's like, just, just go out there, slit their throats, get out of this, get to make this a sweep. And he did the opposite. It looked like he didn't give a shit.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Especially like Donovan Mitchell takes his shots in terms of his playoff performance too, but it's more about what he is in a team context and the idea that you can't just have him throw a whole team on his shoulders and Superman his way through everything once you get into the second round or whatever.

• 41:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  But generally speaking, he shows up and competes. And this is a highly unusual game for him where you're right. He felt a little disconnected. He felt a little absent. I think the Cavs turnovers overall had a lot of them feeling a little bit out of sorts in terms of what they were supposed to be doing.

• 42:09Bill Simmons?

  Did they have 20?

• 42:10Speaker 01

  They, I mean, it was, it was a lot. And Toronto, to their credit, like really dialed that up in a way that they needed to, to kind of equalize their own turnover issues in this series.

• 42:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Um, he was bad. Evan Mobley is just always slightly disappointing at this point. You never feel just fully satisfied. I don't know what, what food item he is.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Hmm. Were you just like a little underwhelmed every time you have it?

• 42:35Bill Simmons?

  Like you're excited to get it. And then it's like, yeah, this is all right.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  I feel like you need to swing big. You need to be like.

• 42:43Bill Simmons?

  Like the pan seared, pan seared filet sole with the breadcrumbs. And it's like, ah, I'm not really filled. Can we get pizza?

• 42:51Speaker 01

  The soul mignon. Tough, tough shots on the Bill Simmons podcast this week.

• 42:55Bill Simmons?

  Just always a little slightly disappointing, but I just don't think, you know, I think Toronto's a pretty bogus five seed. You knew they were going to win one of these at home. I picked Cleveland in six and I don't even like Toronto.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:06Bill Simmons?

  I just don't, you, you can just rain these open threes on Cleveland. That's how Toronto built. All of a sudden they're up 25 in this game. It's because they had guys wide open all over the court, just taking whatever shot they wanted. Um, and I don't, I don't think Harden, this was not like a no show James Harden game. Like he was a little omnipresent, but, uh, pretty strange. Cleveland's a weird team.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  They are a weird team. I, I will say on like, as far as those open three, threes go for Toronto, they are, I mean, they have to be the streakiest three point shooting team in the league.

• 43:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  They have a lot of theoretical guys who will hit in the way that they did today, but they will have some bottom out games that make their offense just completely implode.

• 43:45Bill Simmons?

  I thought Murray Boiles was excellent today.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  He's a dog. He's really good.

• 43:49Bill Simmons?

  I wonder if there's some lineups where they just are gonna, just go, they can go smaller because they have these long athletic guys and just be like, hey, this is what we're gonna do. Try to stop us. That game four will be the game with that series too.

• 44:04Bill Simmons?

  You know, home team usually wins game three when they're down two, nothing. This is how the playoff series goes. Game four, we'll see. We'll see if those shots keep going in. I want to see what happens with Brandon Ingram. It's funny if you go through the player who's probably the most bummed out on each playoff team, even though we just had a win. It would have been Mikal Bridges today at the Knicks if the Knicks had won. It's definitely Ingram where he's like, all right, guys, good game. But meanwhile, he's like, what the fuck? I only had nine shots. You know.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  I just can't with Brandon Ingram. I wish we had a larger body of work to point to that would say that Brandon Ingram, when push comes to shove, is like, again, quite underwhelming in the Sol Monier kind of way in these sorts of games where it's like, even when he scores, it's like, why aren't you guarding? Why aren't you boxing out? Like, there's always something with him in a way that I agree with you is covered up nicely by the fact that the Raptors around him acclimated themselves well.

• 44:55Bill Simmons?

  He's the onion rings. It's like, I don't even know if I-

• 44:58Speaker 01

  You're underwhelmed by onion rings?

• 44:59Bill Simmons?

  No, it's like, I don't even know if I should get these. You're glad you had three and then you're like, I don't want to keep eating these. This is just 900 calories. I'm gonna feel sick. And then you're having, you're like half heartedly eating the fifth one.

• 45:13Bill Simmons?

  We have fantasy coming on later to talk about the Knicks with us in the playoffs in general. But that doesn't mean we can't talk about Atlanta right now. I have so many Atlanta thoughts. A joyous Rembert Brown called me immediately after the game. He thinks CJ McCollum is in the running now for greatest Hawk of all time.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  What is that list? What is the greatest Hawks list?

• 45:35Bill Simmons?

  It's basically Dominique Wilkins and then pick anybody else after him. Unless you want to go way back to St. Louis with Bob Pettit.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Doesn't count.

• 45:44Bill Simmons?

  Knicks are up three. Atlanta gets a second chance. Jalen Johnson, offensive rebound put back. Knicks have it. It's like 45, 50 seconds left and the Knicks have been money in these situations all year. Atlanta gets a stop. Offensive rebound Knicks. Atlanta gets another stop. Timeout, 15 seconds left. Mike Brown goes small. CJ McCollum says, thank you, and immediately scores a Miles McBride. And then Atlanta gets a stop.

• 46:14Bill Simmons?

  And all of a sudden, the game's over and Atlanta's up 2-1 in the series. And I thought they deserved to win the game was the bigger thing. They're up 18. The Knicks almost did their ridiculous. It would have been the fourth time in the last two playoffs that they came back from 18 and won. This time they didn't win. Why in your opinion, do the Knicks consistently fall behind? Now, see, now we're talking about the Knicks. We should wait till Sean. Atlanta, how many teams do you think are kicking themselves that they didn't go for McCollum? Anytime from November to February?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  At least a half dozen. And I think top of that list, it has to be the Houston Rockets.

• 46:51Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Like, this was one that we flagged on group chat early in the season. As far as like, what should they do post Fred VanVliet's injury? CJ's just been sitting there on the shelf, waiting for someone to trade for him. And I think a lot of teams overthought it. And he couldn't be this for just anybody. Like, you need the right supporting cast. You need the guards who can compensate for him defensively. You need the movement to work around the fact that he's not like the most natural playmaker in the floor, in the world. But he gives them and this group like exactly the kind of squirrely one-on-one game that they need. And so it's turned out to be a perfect marriage, but it could have been a perfect marriage for a lot of teams.

• 47:26Bill Simmons?

  He would have really, really, really helped Houston. The thing with him is he's not a conventional point guard, but he's really comfortable with the ball, which is, to me, like, doesn't really make him any different than somebody like Donovan Mitchell. Right? They're guards who can bring the ball up. They're not point guards, they're scoring guards. But they can kind of run an offense and they can handle the ball and you can't press them. I was looking at his career. First of all, he's 34. So I think if he's the leap guy, I tweeted this, if he's the making the leap guy in the playoffs, I think he'd be the oldest guy ever. It's usually we have that one guy where like, whoa, this guy. And there's like three days of stories about him.

• 48:06Bill Simmons?

  He in 69 playoff games has a career average of 20 points a game. And this includes his first year, he scored 0.7 points a game for six playoff games when he barely played. In 2019, when they made the conference finals and lost to the Warriors, he played 19 playoff games and he was 24.7 points a game. 44, 39, 73, made three threes a game. And in his career, he's basically been between 18 and 25 a game since 2016.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:37Bill Simmons?

  It's really weird to me that none of these contending teams, and I kind of wish I had made a bigger deal out of my pot. I didn't even think of it because he was, seemed so buried in Washington. It just seemed like he was going to get bought out and join somebody. But it's weird to me that some of these teams that could have needed him, I think the Lakers are another one that could have, even though they ended up with Conrad, and I think that worked out. But you go through the league and, I don't know, man, this guy's a professional scorer and he hasn't really lost a step.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Especially if you have any solid playmaking from two to four in your starting lineup, like a Jalen Johnson type player is.

• 49:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Then yeah, why wouldn't you invest in a guy who isn't running your offense sure, but can connect enough players and attract enough attention to really get things going? I really do think a lot of teams overthought it. And I think we're seeing now where, like, I want to be very clear that this is not like a vintage CJ McCollum performance. You're right that this is a leap, right? This is a dramatic shift, not just in how he's performing and then like the moments that he's stepping up into, but he has a usage right now in the playoffs that's like above Ant and Donovan Mitchell and these other guys we're talking about. He is, he's dominating an offense, whereas before he was scoring in one. And it turns out he can do that on a team like this, at least in this sort of series where he has these sorts of matchups.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  And this is what is so mystifying about that final score, like the go ahead bucket against Deuce McBride. He had been killing every Deuce McBride's sized defender that the Knicks put in front of him all game. He gave Deuce the two small after he busted his ass on like a first quarter, second quarter possession. And Josh Hart had done a little bit better, a little bit of size has gone a long way and kind of containing CJ over the course of the game. And yet on a critical defensive possession, you're just going to guard him with Deuce McBride? Like, why would you do that?

• 50:23Bill Simmons?

  Dump founding. I, I actually did research on this during the game. When you throw in CJ, who they're obviously going to resign now. Maybe had a lesser deal, but they have a lot of cap space.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Plays the second greatest Hawk of all time.

• 50:37Bill Simmons?

  You have to bring it back. It's him and Bob Pettit, two A and two B. And they have Jalen Johnson, Daniels, they have Alexander Walker on their contract. Akongwu, who was terrific tonight.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Oh, he's really good.

• 50:49Bill Simmons?

  I'm sure they're going to bring back Kaminga.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  That's another one on Akongwu, that the final defensive possession where Jalen Brunson could have theoretically won it.

• 50:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  I think attention is going to be drawn in a lot of different ways. Maybe we'll just gloss over it or Jalen Brunson will get blamed for not scoring in that situation or whatever. If you watch N'Yekka Akongwu, because Dyson Daniels is guarding Brunson, he gets hung up on, I think it was probably like a moving cat screen, to be honest with you.

• 51:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Akongwu sees it, busts ass across the court to get to Brunson, stalls out the whole possession, basically saves the game with just like situational awareness. And Akongwu's having a great series. This was an awesome game from him.

• 51:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I agree. I'm a mild stockholder. I don't have a huge position, but I have bought some Akongwu's stock over the years. Kaminga, which, listen, I don't think there's a lot of teams he makes sense for, but he makes sense on this team.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Clearly.

• 51:39Bill Simmons?

  It's like seeing somebody like Crime 101. And, you know, just seeing a couple of the actors in that movie, like, all right, for this movie, that's fine. Halle Berry, great. But they have this New Orleans pick too.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:55Bill Simmons?

  And they actually, it's the better of that pick or Milwaukee. So they have a couple of chances to get in the top four. So I asked, remember, like, is this the best time to be a Hawks fan since 1988? Which was the year that Dominique's peak, Doc Rivers, Antoine Carr, Cliff LeMahm, they take the Celtics to seven. Dominique and Bird have the amazing duel. Dominique's one of the best players in the league. And since then, the only other peaks for them, they, I mean, they were pretty good in that they had a couple of 90s where they had like 50 win teams that were fine. They had that 2015 season with Horford and all those dudes, the

• 52:33Speaker 01

  The joint players of the week and Mike Budenholzer. Did they win 60 that year?

• 52:37Bill Simmons?

  They won 60, they got swept in the Eastern Finals. And then 21, they made the Eastern Finals. They had that weird Sixers series win when Ben Simmons' career ended and Trey Young made a couple plays.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 52:50Bill Simmons?

  And they made the Eastern Finals. Nobody really took them seriously. But I think the combo of them playing well, but the fact that they actually have a foundation.

• 53:00Bill Simmons?

  They have the best foundation I think they've had in a long time. I honestly think since, since the 80s, because when you throw in that New Orleans pick and how good this draft is, this is just going to be a really good team for a while.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  I suspect so, but we also said the same thing after that 2021 run, like, because it was Trey, it was Deandre Hunter, it was Kevin Herter, it was like a lot of guys who were on the come up, who now with the benefit of hindsight, we know didn't really pan out.

• 53:24Bill Simmons?

  We got fooled by Trey Young a little bit. Well, we also got fooled by the Sixers and Ben Simmons. And yeah, you look back and that was definitely one of those, uh, the wool got pulled over our eyes series.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. But this, this, this does not feel that way.

• 53:38Bill Simmons?

  No, no, this feels like a, I know what they are. I think they have a real identity. I think in the draft, they can really add somebody who could be special. And if they bring Kaminga and CJ back at reasonable deals, like, there's something here. Um, all right. So that's the positive version of the Atlanta Knicks series. We're going to take a break and then we're going to bring Sean Fantasy for the, uh, for the Knicks heart attack section of this. All right. I was thinking about this guy today. There was a moment on the double TVs where the Jets were on the clock at 16, right as the Knicks were trying to close out the Hawks with 20 seconds left. And I was, because Sean was supposed to come on tonight. And I was like, it's possible Sean might have an aneurysm right now.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  You forgot about one thing.

• 54:23Bill Simmons?

  What did I forget?

• 54:24Speaker 01

  While that was happening.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  The Mets were winning seven to three and they've been in the midst of this terrible tailspin and the bases were loaded and they pulled the starting or they pulled the pitcher and they brought in a reliever to pitch to the bases loaded. So the bases were loaded in a seven, three game in the eighth inning. The Knicks were down by one point with seven seconds to go and the Jets pick came in. This happened simultaneously.

• 54:51Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable. Sports is the best. Today was just incredible with, with the sports that was happening.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  But do you know what happened? Do you guys know what, I mean?

• 54:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, you took a tight end, even though you took a tight end at number 42 last year.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  And that was by far the best thing that had happened in that moment because the Mets gave up a grand slam to tie the game and blow the lead and the Knicks lost when their best player fumbled the ball into the backcourt in the final seven seconds. So that was one of the more convulsive 35 seconds in sports rooting history for me that I can remember.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  I do feel like this pod is Bill's euphoria and Sean is the Sydney Sweeney in this moment. Like you brought him in just to cry. I think it's a little gratuitous.

• 55:29Bill Simmons?

  I have Sean dressed naked like a catcher. No, we, we agreed today, win or lose. And I, I genuinely thought the Knicks were going to win today.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:38Bill Simmons?

  I thought it had all the classic whatever, but, uh, but yeah. All right. So where do you want to start, Sean? You're down two, one in the series. Uh, you have the Celtics waiting in round two, hopefully, maybe not. If the, maybe Embiid comes back, who knows?

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Might do. We'll see about that. We will see about that.

• 55:55Bill Simmons?

  Cleveland looked like cock garbage then in Toronto. The East, the seas have parted for the Knicks in the East and then you're down two, one somehow.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't feel good about the series and I don't feel good about the team and I haven't for roughly the last two and a half months of the season. And if you watch them play the Hawks in March, a game that they won, but they seemed severely unprepared for and CJ McCollum also went off in that game and they didn't have an answer for him. And so, yeah, I'm, I'm already kind of spinning my wheels on, I guess they're going to have to blow this up. And they've also probably made a mistake with Mike Brown, but I'm a catastrophist. So, you know, maybe, maybe things will be fine. It's foolish, I think, to lose faith in Jalen Brunson. He has. Proven that he is worthy of a little bit more faith than what I'm usually willing to grant, but this is two games in a row where this is this game was sort of maybe you guys

• 56:47Speaker 02

  talked about this, but this game is sort of the inverse where they were in control for most of game two, and then they really spit the bit in the fourth quarter and then they played so terrifically well in the fourth quarter of this game and OG Ananobi has my heart forever. I just love him so much and they just kind of lost it in the final moments. And I thought the defensive alignment in the final possession against the Hawks was super weird going so small and then they gave up an eight footer because they went so small and then Brunson just lost the ball. I thought the Hawks double teaming him there and just kind of moving away from Hart. Why Hart was even on the floor offensively in that final possession is something you can debate and I didn't think was smart. So yeah, I don't know. Feel like shit. Always feel like shit about sports. You know, what am I supposed to do, man?

• 57:31Bill Simmons?

  Three first rounders today. You did that at least.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  That was cool. Yeah, I'm actually kind of into that. We can talk about that if you want.

• 57:38Bill Simmons?

  Rob, do you have the catastrophist on 4K Blu-ray?

• 57:40Speaker 02

  Italian film, 1964.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  The special features are unbelievable, honestly. Great doc footage.

• 57:48Bill Simmons?

  Um, we can we talk about Mikal Bridges and and this becoming one of the weirdest stories in the NBA?

• 57:54Speaker 01

  I think we have to talk about Mikal Bridges.

• 57:56Bill Simmons?

  He had zero points in the second half of game two and he had zero points in game three. It's zero and was basically benched for the entire fourth quarter for McBride. And it's not like McBride was shutting anybody down. Um, what, Rob, what has happened to Mikal Bridges?

• 58:15Speaker 01

  I would say that this was a weird occurrence if it hadn't been happening for like a month straight now on and off. Like he's had so many of these games where like you would have to work really hard to have less of an impact on the flow of basketball than Mikal Bridges did in this game. Uh, like completely transparent. He hasn't always been the defender he's been hyped up to be for the Knicks, but this was especially glaring case of that. I thought Deuce was like easily outplaying him. Like it really was an easy call to trade out some of those minutes, but. They need something like just desperately, literally any sign of life from that spot.

• 58:50Bill Simmons?

  I would have thought he was, I thought him and OG would have been so important in this series against the Hawks wings. That's the weirdest thing. Like if there was a series for him, this would be one of the series, I would think, but.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  OG lived up and I would say Josh Hart lived up, right? How much of the Knicks play in this game resorted to flounder your way through a possession and then get bailed out at the last possible moment by either OG or Josh Hart? Or I guess like a desperate Deuce McBride three, like those were the only options.

• 59:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, OG had two absolutely ludicrous shot buzzer, shot clock buzzer saving heaves that went in. That I think if either of them don't go in, we're probably not even in the final minute in a close game. Like it really felt like they swung momentum.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  You, I think, I think fans would probably feel like the Knicks are even more out of this series than it feels like right now. Because this is a game that like maybe kind of got away from them, but they were getting beat pretty much. I mean, they were done 18 at one point. So it's one of those things where it's usually one of the wings that comes up short. When they don't perform well and sometimes it's Hart and sometimes it's OG and more recently, especially this season, it seems like Mikhail has just still not been able to figure out. What his role is, how he makes sense. He just kind of stands in the corner a lot of the time and waits for someone to maybe pass him the ball. And I think fans feel like this was an ill conceived trade from the moment it happened. And now that we're multi years into it and he's already been given a new contract.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  I mean, he's making a lot of money to be scoring zero points in six straight quarters in the playoffs. It's just, it's kind of depressing.

• 1:00:23Bill Simmons?

  It's kind of how I feel about them locking down Miami Vice 1985, but with Austin Butler as Sonny Crockett.

• 1:00:31Bill Simmons?

  Like they just kind of shot, they had a great idea and just shot their wide without really thinking about it.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Has it been confirmed that he's playing Sonny and not Tubbs? Because I think the move is to, to race swap is to, to make MBJ Sonny.

• 1:00:46Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  What do you think?

• 1:00:50Bill Simmons?

  I, that broke my brain.

• 1:00:53Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  I mean, MBJ has Sonny.

• 1:00:55Bill Simmons?

  That makes way more sense.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  So why not do it?

• 1:01:00Bill Simmons?

  That's a great idea. Wow. That's why you launched a new newsletter this week about movies because you have great ideas like.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  I love movies.

• 1:01:07Bill Simmons?

  You really love those movies. Um, so Bridges is, is this salvageable?

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  What is, what is this? I think the problem is not just Bridges, it's that to also catastrophize a little bit, this is a Knicks team that has felt like they are one bad day away all season from never speaking to each other ever again. And maybe that is a little bit of projection on our part. Maybe that's a little body language doctoring here and there. But I don't know, they just don't feel connected in terms of the way that they play. And you can tell that when they really do run into walls, guys like Bridges feel completely iced out. They don't know how to contribute. Sean, I think you absolutely nailed it, that he's just kind of like idling off to the side as they try to figure out some problem, like try to, try to figure out some solution to everything else that ails them. And it just, he's not really a participant in it at all.

• 1:01:56Bill Simmons?

  I'll tell you, the body language doctor, my front desk was multiple calls today during the game, multiple texts, wondering if I was noticing what was happening. The only person who seemed remotely happy to be there was Jose Alvarado, who was like, guys, I'll buy in, I'll be the cheerleader bench guy and try to give everybody some good energy. They would cut to the Knicks bench after big plays. And you could just kind of tell when a team's not that connected. My bigger thing is, if you ask, if you go Nick by Nick, who feels like they're totally happy with how everything's going? It's probably just Brunson and OG would be the, and maybe Miles McBride? I don't know. What do you think, Sean?

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  Even OG at times, you can kind of see him being like, shouldn't this be my team?

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  I feel that from him at times where he's feeling, there was a moment in the fourth quarter where Brunson brought the ball up and was doubled and OG set a high screen and Brunson went past the screen and it didn't seem like he was going to pass the ball when the double came back to him. And then he did pass it to OG and OG went to the basket and he got fouled. And I watched OG go back to Brunson and almost say to him like, more of that. Like, you can pass me the ball back. And I think that's really interesting. Just because he's, he's obviously, if he's a number one, it's not a very good team. But he's a really interesting number two. And on this team, he's number three. And the name that we haven't said is Karl-Anthony Towns, who is like the enigma of enigmas. And I thought was like, at times brilliant defensively in this game.

• 1:03:27Bill Simmons?

  Really good defensively.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Yes. And impossible to figure out offensively. Like, I just don't know what to expect from him. And so, you know.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know what you do with Bridges. You can't take Hart off the team because he's the heart and soul of it and he's Brunson's boy. But also there are times when he's on the floor and you're like, this isn't really a rotation player and a functioning offense. And so they're just a series of awkwardly fitting parts and have been that for two and a half years. And yet this is the best Knicks team since like 1998. So it's so weird. It's just a weird situation.

• 1:04:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then also it's a team that if you played Boston in this series, you would have a ton of confidence as dysfunctional as the Knicks have been.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:04:11Bill Simmons?

  And Hart was the best guy on the team in game two and was pretty indispensable today. But I agree with you. It never adds up. What is your Josh Hart take, Mahoney? Just in general.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  I have a hard time like talking myself into him holistically for exactly this reason. It's like when he's great, everything he does is super loud and incredibly impressive. It feels completely indispensable. And then when he's anything less than great, like his flaws really drag an offense and completely devolve its flow. And I think all of these things are connected, right? When Jalen Brunson gets a little bit ball hoggy, some of it's because maybe a defense isn't guarding Josh Hart very much and he's having to over dribble to get where he wants to go. Karl-Anthony Towns being, yes, really good defensively in a game like this, but maybe the most complicated star in the entire league. If you just wanted to crank up how much he gets the ball, like he'll just commit four offensive fouls or he'll have heinous turnovers. So it's like,

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  you have to work around all of these different things, Hart included, to make the Knicks go. And sometimes you just run into walls all game long like they seem to in this one.

• 1:05:14Bill Simmons?

  Sean,

• 1:05:17Bill Simmons?

  do you like this Knicks team?

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  I mean, I love Jalen Brunson, you know, like I just, I think he's really special and I want him to be great. I want him to be a forever Nick and I want him to reach the place that I think he deserves to be and. I didn't really get the cat trade and I didn't get the Bridges trade. And it has kind of worked insofar as they just win 50 games every year now, which, you know, as recently as five years ago seemed impossible. So I can't, it's not like I dislike them. I really like them and yet, like I told you the other night, like I, I wasn't like, I have to see every single second of this game. Because I feel like every game is kind of the same.

• 1:06:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  And even in the playoffs.

• 1:06:02Bill Simmons?

  They're down 10, they rally back.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so that's a different relationship to the team that I had even a few years ago before the cat Bridges era. When Tibbs was trying to grind, you know, Derrick Rose and turn him into 2014 Derrick Rose.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  So I don't know if I love them. I really, I love Bronson. It's hard to not think about Giannis right now and like what this could have been. And if they had just pushed a little bit harder.

• 1:06:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  You know, so I'm really torn. I, I still think there's a good chance that they win this series, even though they're down 2-1.

• 1:06:36Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  And I, I agree with what you said, Bill. I think against Boston, we've seen it once before and we match up well with the wings. And a couple of really bad three-point shooting games from the Celtics. And we could be back in the Eastern Conference Finals and anything can happen after that. But tonight sucked.

• 1:06:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. It's a weird basketball thing because I think Minnesota has it against Denver too. The Knicks have it against the Celtics, these certain matchups where you can tell the teams like, we really like playing this team. This is just a good one for us, you know? And this will happen in football all the time where the right football team plays the right football team. And they're just, they're feeling good the whole time. I, I think there's a crazy what if with this Knicks team that probably doesn't get discussed enough. And I'm not just saying this. So Sean dips his head in a vat of acid.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  Are you sure you're not?

• 1:07:23Bill Simmons?

  The Halliburton shot, I really think is a sliding doors for this Knicks era. Because I, I just think they probably win that series. I think that was such a bizarre basketball event. That's the weirdest collapse. And that shot going up 30 feet and coming down and going in. And then the Knicks almost winning in OT and just that whole game. I just feel like if we play that game 30 times, the Knicks probably win 29 of them. And, and maybe they make the finals.

• 1:07:52Bill Simmons?

  Last year, instead of the Pacers, and then this is you're just thinking about this and talking about it completely differently. It was like, well, we were in the finals last year. Like, there's some sort of validation of what happened. But that Howburn shot in that game in general just flipped it. So now, like, if you lose to the Hawks in round one, this all feels like a complete failure. But if that shot misses, it's not. It's a weird point, but I do think it's a point.

• 1:08:17Speaker 02

  Well, so how much does it? How different is it, for example, from when the first subway, the subway series, when the Mets play the Yankees and they just got dominated and they made it to the World Series and like, this is great, but they got kind of embarrassed on a big, on the big stage. And likewise, when the Knicks went to the finals and faced the Spurs, and they just kind of got bullied and they shouldn't have been there.

• 1:08:36Bill Simmons?

  Thanks for not bringing up the Patriots against the Seahawks. Appreciate that.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, who'd you, would you guys draft a tackle? Why would you need a tackle? I thought you, I thought you had black. Oh, interesting.

• 1:08:48Bill Simmons?

  If you saw the Super Bowl.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  I did. I did. I watched the whole Super Bowl. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I think it would be one of those things where if that Knicks team last year had gone to the finals, they would have just gotten their doors kicked in by OKC. And we would have been like, all right, cool. They made it to the finals, but they were, they never really like materially had a chance to win. The same way that I think this season, no one's like, well, the Knicks do have a chance to win. Like, they don't have a chance to win the finals. They're not going to beat whoever's in the Western Conference. So it's just a little bit hard to, to feel like that game in particular radically changed the fortunes and future of the franchise.

• 1:09:21Bill Simmons?

  That's fair.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  But it wa, it doesn't mean that that series was not any less painful. And the one thing that I, on all my Knicks chains this today, a lot of like, this is the Pacers all over again, Pacers all over again.

• 1:09:31Bill Simmons?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  Where it's like, bad matchup. We don't have an answer for this particular player. And a couple of things are not going our way. A lot of sloppiness. The head coach seems to have misunderstood the assignment in this matchup. Like, a lot of similar kinds of vibes. And this is the first round and not the second round. But you know what? They were in this position last year with the Pistons and they prevailed. So we'll see what happens.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Well, even down to the second half of the Hawks season, being such a resurgent thing, just like the Pacers were like, I think a lot, a lot of opponents are still trying to get a feel for what exactly the Hawks are. I don't blame the Knicks for being caught a little bit off guard. I wasn't expecting CJ McCollum to turn into Jesus Christ, but he just has. And now he could do no wrong. And this is the world we live in.

• 1:10:12Bill Simmons?

  Sean, will you stick around for a couple of other small basketball conversations?

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  I will, but you must be feeling great as a longtime CJ guy. I know CJ was one of your boys back in the day, Bill.

• 1:10:20Bill Simmons?

  I always really liked him. I really thought that Houston, it's just so funny that Houston didn't get him and needs him so desperately in this Lakers series. They just have to be like, what the hell? Can we talk about OKC?

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:10:35Bill Simmons?

  I really feel like, and it's internet driven and social media doesn't mean everything, but I just, in discourse I have with people in my life, like, everybody's just like, fuck this. Like, they're just tired of the, the style. And, and some of it's not fair, but it's really risen to villain level. And I was wondering, they flop and they foul bait enough that, do we just give them the nickname Oklahoma City FC? Cause they're like a soccer team? Does that work for you guys?

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  It's a little abstract. You kind of have to walk your way there. I think, we need something a little more straightforward.

• 1:11:07Bill Simmons?

  If we had a premier league team in the NBA, it would be Oklahoma City.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Bill Simmons?

  Oklahoma City FC. Yeah. There's some sort of-

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Atletico Thunder.

• 1:11:15Bill Simmons?

  I just want to workshop some sort of soccer thing with them. But Rob, how, how fair is the hatred of the tricks that OKC pulls? Cause the bottom line is, it works. And that's the whole point of, you know, you're trying to win, you're doing whatever you can.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  It does work. Some of it is, I think, quite earned. Like, Shea does exaggerate a lot of contact. I think that what frustrates a lot of people is just the different thresholds, right? Of, you can't touch Shea, but they're allowed to just swarm and hack defensively and be ultra aggressive. To me, that feels consistent with everything we've ever seen in modern NBA history, which is, once you get a reputation for being good at something, the refs will mostly just assume that you're doing that great thing again. Like, if you look at the players who get away with the most travels, it's all the guys with amazing footwork. Cause you just think, oh, they pulled it off. Oh, they kept their pivot. I think the Thunder came by a lot of this stuff, honestly, in terms of how physically they play defensively. But they do get an incredible benefit of the doubt. And then some of it's

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  just not really their fault. Like, it's not their fault that Devin Booker got called for one of the worst technical fouls I have ever seen in an NBA game. Like, that's not really a Thunder issue, so much as it's like Thunder adjacent.

• 1:12:21Bill Simmons?

  Sean, I know you have a take and you're, you've been known to just irrationally hate random things.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  I'm imagining a Thunder Celtics finals and just what it, speaking of catastrophes, I mean, that would be a global catastrophe and a very complicated NBA season, I will say, and the perception of the league. Who's excited for that, Bill? Who's pumped, besides you, obviously, like who's, who's like Thunder Celtics? I'd love to watch that for seven consecutive games.

• 1:12:48Bill Simmons?

  I think the Spurs getting to the finals would be the win for the league.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:12:52Bill Simmons?

  I'll be interested to see. I mean, obviously, the Lakers getting in would be their wet dream, but I think the Spurs making it all the way would be the, what they would want, would be my guess. Spurs, anyone would be the ideal finals.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:13:06Bill Simmons?

  Joker going for a second one would be more fun than OKC trying to go back to back. And the Celtics saying, look, if you don't love sports movies and Jason Tatum coming back from his darkest hour, rising from the ashes and coming back, then I don't know what to tell you. You don't like sports movies. You didn't, you didn't like Christie with Sydney Sweeney out there, so.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  I, that could have been better, I think, that movie, just like I think the finals could be better if it were, I don't know, Detroit, San Antonio. That would be interesting, right? Knicks, San Antonio would be magic.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  I feel like y'all are selling the Thunder a little bit short as an entertainment product. I get that they are despised because of some of their tactics, but like their defense is very fun to watch in a like watching a cheetah chase down a gazelle in the open range kind of way. Like I, I do, I do like the state of nature that they create.

• 1:13:56Bill Simmons?

  I like watching the Thunder as well. I, I hate the foul stuff, but they're not the only team that does it. But I, I feel the same way, Rob. I think they're, actually, the problem with them is they're up 20 in the second quarter of a lot of these games. You're like, all right, that sucks.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  Don't you think it would become a pretty significant national talking point, though, if somehow miraculously the Knicks got to the finals and faced the Thunder and then two chief foul baiters in the league were, were toe to toe? I mean, how, how many pods could you do about that particular issue? Cause you know, Brunson, God love him, he has his ways, right?

• 1:14:31Bill Simmons?

  He does.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  The people who don't watch the NBA regularly, who just tune in for the finals would think their broadcast is like flickering buffering with all like the pump fake jab steps, like pivot through the Jalen Brunson chair trying to do.

• 1:14:44Bill Simmons?

  Lakers Rockets, Rockets are down 0-2. Austin Reeves coming back.

• 1:14:52Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable. I, I think this is one of the most bizarre series that we've had in a while. The Rockets are down 0-2 to a team that basically just ran amok for the first half yesterday with Luke Kennard and Marcus Smart and 41-year-old LeBron and then held on for dear life in the second half. And I, what's the, Sean, what, just as somebody that just flicks this stuff on, what's more fun for you, the demise of the Rockets or 41-year-old LeBron carrying the Lakers without Luca?

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  You know, Katie reminds me of recently is Kanye West. Those were two guys in like 2012. I was like, these guys are never going to lose. These guys are unbelievable. They're so naturally gifted. They're on, they're on a collision course with destiny and they will be great forever. And now is it 0-7 in his last seven playoff games, Kevin Durant is? And obviously not healthy and getting his ass kicked by the B-team from Los Angeles?

• 1:15:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  It's just weird. And you know, Kanye, we can, let's not talk about that. Um, so yeah, I think it's unfortunate. I loved watching Kevin Durant play. He broke my heart when he didn't come to New York. Um, and these are just desserts.

• 1:16:03Bill Simmons?

  37 years old. He was in the 2007 draft and probably shouldn't be the guy that's handling the ball for 37 minutes a game in a playoffs. Um, what's, what do you think Eman's biggest mistake was? Cause he's taken a pretty big beating, Rob.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  It's a pretty big list.

• 1:16:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  I would say spending the last several months not preparing the team to like function whatsoever on offense. Like it, these are the problems right now, but this is the same team that if you turn them on two months ago, it'd be like, why don't they know how to play out of a double team for Kevin Durant? And here it is all coming home to roost when he's the only guy who can actually handle the ball. So if you wanted Reed Shepard to be a bigger part of your team and you need him to be a bigger part of your team, maybe you should have invested more in his actual on-court development at the incremental stages of the season. It's like, there's all these like long game visions of who the Rockets could have been and it all got traded out for like Ime Udoka puffing out his chest and wanting to play like grinders every night of the regular season. And I just think the Rockets are so much worse for it.

• 1:17:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I agree. It's, that's why you have the 82 game season's way too long. But one of the benefits is you can keep throwing Reed Shepard out there and trying to get him experience for a series like this.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Bill Simmons?

  The Luke Kennard thing's pretty interesting though, because I think it's somebody we've always, I think all of us have liked and have seen the ceiling for. And it just never happened and he would just bounce around from team to team. And then somehow J.J. Reddick has unlocked him. And I think J.J.'s been one of the stars of the playoffs.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 1:17:32Bill Simmons?

  Beating the Rockets two games in a row without your two best guys is nuts.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  It's not that surprising that J.J. knows what to do with Luke Kennard. I mean, they have a somewhat similar profile as players.

• 1:17:42Bill Simmons?

  Getting De'Andre to have a pulse is way up there, but I don't know. I was watching them in game two, as ugly as it is, they still have, they had shooters. You know, they, they, I at least understood what they were doing. It wasn't always going to be successful, but there was a plan in place. Whereas like you watch the Rockets, you're like, I don't understand anything that you guys are doing.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  When Fred VanVliet went down, do you think they should have just tried to trade for CJ then in the offseason?

• 1:18:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was, that was the name that got mentioned. I think part of the problem was VanVliet would have had to be in the trade, right?

• 1:18:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, with that kind of salary. Well, I think there probably would have been other constructions, but it would have cost you maybe a Tari Eason, Dorian Finney-Smith, who they thought was going to be an important part of their team, like maybe some guys like that.

• 1:18:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, CJ made, I think 30, 30 something and VanVliet was at 25. So they could have tried to, and they had all these extra picks. Like it would have been pretty easy. I didn't, I didn't understand why they didn't get anybody. Like, why don't they have DeSoomu? It's not like they don't have picks.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  Great question.

• 1:18:44Bill Simmons?

  They had a bunch of things they could have given up. But it's almost like they didn't think they were going to really be competitive or they were saving themselves for next year. I didn't really understand it.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  But you have Kevin Durant at his age, like this, again, this is the year. Like you're supposed to be pushing forward once he's a member of your team and not just accepting that, oh, we got a bad break. Let's let Fred rehab and we're going to see where we are next year. Like Kevin Durant might not be a borderline 50, 40, 90 guy on this kind of production next year. Like at some point the bottom will fall out.

• 1:19:14Bill Simmons?

  How would you rate the playoffs so far, Rob?

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  I think quite good for the first round.

• 1:19:19Bill Simmons?

  Like an A minus?

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Uh, like B, yeah, B plus, A minus zone. Like, I think if, if this Nuggets Wolves game tonight had really kicked off, then maybe we'd be headed into a pretty special area. But the Lakers Rockets being like a complete flip on what I thought it would be. A lot of split series that are hotly contested. I mean, we got two one-point games in terms of the Hawks Knicks alone. Sorry, Sean. But like, there's just a lot on the board here that's exciting and surprising. And then you have your CJ McCollum level stories that are just kind of catching us all off guard. This is kind of what we want.

• 1:19:51Bill Simmons?

  The streaming thing's been a little weird.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Don't like, don't like it.

• 1:19:54Bill Simmons?

  It's just weird to not be able to flip channels around. And, but man, I know this is going to be what the future is of all this stuff, but.

• 1:20:01Speaker 02

  Tonight, because I had three specific sporting events that I was paying close attention to, I had a TV on, a laptop open and my phone going with all three. And I don't know if I've ever done that before. We don't all multi-view quad box like you, Bill. And it was honestly extremely confusing to my little daughter. She was like, which one of these am I supposed to be paying attention to? And I was like, none of them, please don't be close to me right now. This is dangerous.

• 1:20:29Bill Simmons?

  Please leave.

• 1:20:32Bill Simmons?

  Rob, are you excited for Sean's new newsletter?

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:20:35Bill Simmons?

  Where he talks about movies?

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Can I get a comp subscription or do I have to pay for this thing? What's going on?

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  The answer is yes.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Okay, then, and then I'm very excited about it.

• 1:20:43Bill Simmons?

  Sean, I paid right away because I'm wealthy and because I wanted you to have my, my money for it.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Thanks, Bill.

• 1:20:50Bill Simmons?

  I didn't ask you for a comp.

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  As you know, I'm also doing this with Spotify, so I'm not totally sure how that financial arrangement works.

• 1:20:56Bill Simmons?

  I just, I just wanted to throw my money into the ring.

• 1:20:59Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 1:21:00Bill Simmons?

  It was great to get it. You did like 4,000 words today. Your fingers still work. I was jealous.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  I did. I might've got a little over the top in the first piece. But yeah, it's, it's really fun. Rob, as you know, and Bill, as you used to know, and we're going to get you out of retirement and get into a newsletter at some point. It's just very.

• 1:21:16Bill Simmons?

  We will.

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, we will. I will. It's rewarding to write. It's like, it's a different kind of rewarding than doing a show. And I'm enjoying it so far. It is hard. It is actually hard to sit down and focus for several consecutive hours and write something, even if it's something as silly as what I've been writing about movies. So I'm excited to be doing it. I am legitimately like blown away by how cool and nice people are about this. And I'm excited to do more. Next one won't be 4,000 words, but I don't know. What do you want to see me write about? What kind of, what, what, what movies are you interested in, Bill?

• 1:21:48Bill Simmons?

  I like, first of all, I, I might want to have a paragraph every once in a while. I haven't, I don't know if I told you about these Lifetime movies I've been watching on Netflix.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  You did, yeah.

• 1:22:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I did. I did tell you about those.

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  Gaslit by my husband.

• 1:22:05Bill Simmons?

  Gaslit by my husband.

• 1:22:08Bill Simmons?

  Nobody dumps my daughter was one I saw this week. Netflix has finally figured out Lifetime and Netflix are the marriage everybody needs, Rob. Just have a really good title and, and somebody with a slightly sinister face in the thumbnail and people are going to click on it. Two of the top 10 right now. The other one was Husband, Father Killer was another good one, but this is the kind of stuff I want to watch late at night when I'm falling asleep. I can't watch Babylon at 11:30 at night, Sean.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  First of all, yes, you can.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, you absolutely can do that. I do it on, on the regular.

• 1:22:39Bill Simmons?

  I don't want to fall asleep to Babylon.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Somebody out there is like staring at a spreadsheet of your browsing algorithmic information being like, we, we got him again. Gaslit by my husband.

• 1:22:49Bill Simmons?

  You got America. You're in the top 10. You're in the top 10.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  Is there not a 10-episode string of recaps of Nobody Dumps My Daughter on the Prestige TV podcast, Rob? Did I miss that?

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  It's actually coming in June. You know, we really wanted to save it for the media's part of the calendar. Really, really bring people in, be one of our 10 polls. I mean, this, this is what the people want.

• 1:23:09Bill Simmons?

  I used to be more involved with the planning and ideation of Prestige TV. And then I let Joanne and Rob kind of sent them on their raft and pushed them in the ocean. And it's worked out 95% of the time, but then occasionally there will be the three episodes on Beef, where I'm like, we probably could have wrapped this up in 40 minutes. I don't know if you saw, did you, you finish Beef, Rob?

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  I did. That's a prestige product. You're, you're telling me an Oscar, Isaac, Carey Mulligan, Kaylee Spady, Charles Melton show?

• 1:23:37Bill Simmons?

  I think we could have ripped through it.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Oh, no, absolutely not.

• 1:23:40Bill Simmons?

  I can't say I, I can't say I finished Beef. There's got to be one of those, they have those ratings at the end where it's thumbs up, thumbs down. I wish there were like more options.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  What do you want?

• 1:23:52Bill Simmons?

  This kept my interest for a few hours, but ultimately I'm not sure it was worth my time.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, checked out halfway through episode three. That's me on most TV shows.

• 1:24:00Bill Simmons?

  I hung on as long as I could.

• 1:24:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the one that we're not covering on Prestige that I'm ashamed to admit I'm enjoying is Imperfect Women.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  Oh, the Apple series.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  I don't even know what this show is.

• 1:24:15Speaker 02

  Kate Mara, let's go.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  What is it about?

• 1:24:17Bill Simmons?

  It's actors, Apple's strategy is it's actors or actresses that you've heard of and liked, but probably haven't really resonated with them in about four years. And now they're in a show where somebody dies in the first three minutes.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:31Bill Simmons?

  And then we go backwards to try to figure out who did it. So in this one, it's Kerry Washington, Elizabeth Moss and Kate Mara. Long time, long time Grantland Ringer All-Star. Like Rudy Gobert, like you go back and you look at her basketball reference and it's like, wow, she was a Grantland All-Star four straight years.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  We love Kate.

• 1:24:49Bill Simmons?

  Early 2010s. So it's the three of them and there's a murder mystery and you just kind of turn your brain off and go. Which I think is its own, that's not prestige TV, that's like another type of TV. But Beef was like a little too much work for me. There was a little too much going on.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  Too much work?

• 1:25:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and it wasn't good enough for all the work was where I landed.

• 1:25:08Speaker 02

  Bill, I actually wanted to pitch you on a show for Apple that is based on some of the IP we have here at The Ringer. It's called Mysterious Podcasters.

• 1:25:17Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:25:18Speaker 02

  Three actors that look a lot like you and Rob and Chris Ryan. And, you know, we can talk about who those actors should be based on your comps. But it's the three of you guys in the tile image huddled around a single microphone. And like you're, one of you is like nudging the other out of the way and fighting for space. And it's like a dramedy, you know, it's not pure drama. There are laughs in it, but also there's like a real mystery at the center. One of you killed one of your former podcast partners. And we have to figure out who did it.

• 1:25:48Bill Simmons?

  Well, Greenwald dies. He's in the first scene, he's dead.

• 1:25:52Bill Simmons?

  And then it turns out at the end, Chris wanted to watch for himself, but nobody realized that for seven episodes.

• 1:25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, mysterious podcasters coming soon to Apple TV plus.

• 1:26:00Bill Simmons?

  I really like that.

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  It feels like a written by Jason Segel production. I feel like he could nail the tone of exactly what we're going for.

• 1:26:06Speaker 02

  You and Jason Segel are about the same height, Rob.

• 1:26:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, seriously.

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  I'm sensing a match.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  You know what? I'm not opposed to it. Let's, let's, let's get Jason on the phone.

• 1:26:13Speaker 02

  He used to ball as well.

• 1:26:14Bill Simmons?

  The key, the key with these shows is the thumbnail and the title does 97% of the work. You really have to nail both. Like Beef is great. It's four letters and you could just put some sort of crazy thumbnail and you're ready to roll. But, I mean, so Sean, I, I deep dived the, binged The Pit.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. I heard you talking to Joe about it.

• 1:26:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I did two straight seasons in about five days and now I just have a hole in my heart. It's just gone.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Well, they can fix that. You're just gonna roll into the ER. They'll, they'll get you fixed up.

• 1:26:47Bill Simmons?

  I'm just waiting for Dr. Robbie, just to figure out what happened with him. But it's, it's so funny that they just unlocked this strategy of, hey, it's gonna be a doctor series like everything else, except it's gonna be every hour and it's gonna be grosser than a, than a network show.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  My, my biggest challenge with The Pit is I did really enjoy when TV shows had 22 episodes in a season and it felt like we were spending a lot of time with these characters and building a relationship with them. I, like you, Bill, was a huge ER fan, watched every episode of the first like six or seven seasons. At this stage of my life, when they're like, yeah, there's gonna be 18 episodes in this season. I'm like, I, nope. I, I am, I like, I won't be there.

• 1:27:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:27Speaker 02

  Like, good luck. Sounds like you guys have got an Emmy winning product. Happy for Noah Wiley. But I just can't find the time. I'm sorry. Look at all these Blu-rays.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  You say this, but when it comes time to do the Transformers Hall of Fame, you're like, yeah, let me just mainline these real quick.

• 1:27:40Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't even have to prepare for that. We can do it right here.

• 1:27:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. The irony of you saying that when it's, you're doing like a 1978 Hall of Fame draft or movie, movie draft, and then you watched 20 movies from 1978 in the span of three days, but, but doesn't have time for Dr. Robbie?

• 1:27:58Speaker 02

  But that's like saying.

• 1:28:01Speaker 02

  To an architect, why are you spending all those, all that time drawing those blueprints? You know, like this is, this is the raw materials. These are the, this is, these are the brain gems that are necessary to make that, that draft or that Hall of Fame. You know, the pit is like, that's something you do in your free time. And 18 of them, no, I'm good.

• 1:28:20Bill Simmons?

  You're missing Nurse Dana though, who would be one of your favorite characters of all time.

• 1:28:24Speaker 02

  Who, who, what's her story?

• 1:28:26Bill Simmons?

  No, she's just the one that, that sucks everyone in who jumps in on the pit. After one episode, they're like, I love Dana. I don't know. What is it about Dana, right? I can't even describe her.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Just a gruff, real talking, you know, nurse running the place. You know, a woman in charge that appeals to a lot of people.

• 1:28:40Bill Simmons?

  Pittsburgh accent, goes out, has, has cigarettes outside the, the front door of the hospital.

• 1:28:46Speaker 02

  Just dart after dart after dart.

• 1:28:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just smoking darts.

• 1:28:48Speaker 02

  More CR speed than mine.

• 1:28:49Bill Simmons?

  Oh, it is not just CR speed. It is, it's CR's in fifth gear. CR's on an F1 course, flying around. Ciara and I simultaneously were watching season one of Miami Vice and he kind of floated a, why wouldn't we just recap season one of Miami Vice? And we decided that would be the all time one for us.

• 1:29:14Bill Simmons?

  I don't think, I don't think America wants it. I don't think we can get a sponsor for it. I don't know what feed it would go on, but we did talk about it.

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  Maybe you just need the news peg of the new movie.

• 1:29:24Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:29:24Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, if you want me to host it on the newsletter, then that, that's an option. Just to get everybody prepped for Miami Vice 85, there's video capabilities, you know?

• 1:29:33Bill Simmons?

  On the newsletter?

• 1:29:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:29:35Bill Simmons?

  We could do like little 10 minute episodes?

• 1:29:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not planning to do that because I'm already, this is my fourth podcast of today, but um, I.

• 1:29:43Bill Simmons?

  Is it really?

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  It is really. It's just a bad coincidence.

• 1:29:48Bill Simmons?

  Fourth podcast?

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:52Speaker 02

  I never do that, but I'm promoting news that are also the meds are on fire. So I had to talk to Zach earlier this morning.

• 1:29:57Bill Simmons?

  The newsletter is called Projections.

• 1:30:00Bill Simmons?

  You're also gonna be on, not the upcoming Rewatchables, because we did Ghostbusters, but you're on the one after.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  The next one. I'm pumped about it. Yeah, I'm really excited about the next one.

• 1:30:09Bill Simmons?

  Won't say what it is yet, but we're doing a bunch of comedies next month, Rob. Rob's come on the Rewatchables twice and had two of the hottest takes in the history of the show.

• 1:30:16Speaker 02

  They're very normal takes.

• 1:30:19Bill Simmons?

  He said Russell Crowe and Nice Guys dog walked Gladiator for the Oscar.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:30:24Bill Simmons?

  Was the last one.

• 1:30:25Speaker 02

  No, I said Joaquin dog walked Russell Crowe in Gladiator. That's, it's a very important distinction.

• 1:30:31Bill Simmons?

  Sorry. I screwed that up. Yeah.

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  I'm very familiar with the Nirvana take. I believe that you should be sentenced to prison and spend the rest of your life there for that take, but it was, it was really good podcasting.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Thank you. I appreciate it. As long, as long as it's white collar, as long as I can play a little pickup basketball, have a nice cafeteria lunch, like I'm not opposed to some prison time.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  No, you're going under the prison in the Gulag and you'll be tortured every day, but I think-

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  At least I'll be my authentic self, unlike all of the members of the grunge movement.

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  That's, really, how dare you? And wipe that smirk off your face right now.

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  I'm gonna get violent here, Bill.

• 1:31:17Bill Simmons?

  I blew, Sean and Chris and Yasi, I was saying how the whole replacements now retroactively being on the same level as R E M is one of the things that infuriates me the most about, about what's happened with music in the last 35 years. And that devolved into a, basically a screaming match on text, but the important thing to know is I was right.

• 1:31:39Speaker 02

  We'll note it. Rob, how are you gonna follow that up, though? Like, now every time you're on the show,

• 1:31:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Speaker 02

  you have to come with some nuclear take. And you spoke of men like Eddie Vedder and Chris Cornell being inauthentic, but now when you perform a take, we'll know you have reached beyond the pale.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  I think I just can't go on the rewatchables again. I think I just gotta like take my bow, exit through the fire, escape.

• 1:32:04Bill Simmons?

  We're bringing you on for From Hell Month. You're not gonna miss From Hell Month in June. It's five movies.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. That does sound quite exciting.

• 1:32:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, From Hell. Uh, all right, Sean, good luck with projections.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  Thanks, Bill.

• 1:32:14Bill Simmons?

  Mahoney, can hear you on Prestige TV and watch you there as well as Ringer NBA with Bear. How's the new guy Kyle Mann? That's going all right?

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  Kyle's crushing it.

• 1:32:24Bill Simmons?

  New guy energy?

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  New guy energy, a very particular energy from Kyle Mann. But I think he brings us a folksiness that we desperately needed. Us coastal elites, for sure.

• 1:32:34Bill Simmons?

  All right. Uh, thanks for popping on. See you, guys.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  Thanks, Bill.

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  Thanks, Bill.

• 1:32:39Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mahoney and Sean. Thanks to Gao and Eduardo as well. Don't forget about the rewatchables, which went up Monday at Kindergarten Cop. Don't forget about Legata. Please check that out. New Ringer original series. And I am going to be back this weekend with Zach Lowe. Um, will be coming on Netflix Live right after the last playoff basketball game, whatever it is, or whenever that game's been decided. If it's a 20-point blowout in the third quarter, we'll come on earlier. So, uh, enjoy the weekend. Uh, I know it's great on the East Coast right now. Uh, I wish I was back in Boston. Um, but it's nice here in LA, too. Enjoy the weekend. See you on Sunday.

• 1:33:36Bill Simmons?

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