10 Alan Jones | Two radio titans, one courtroom

Former 2GB rival Ray Hadley has conceded he sent text messages to Complainant C about Alan Jones, saying “that bloke needs to be destroyed". Isobel Roe takes you through the past week of evidence with Stocky, including alleged threats to a witness, as well as a surprising moment that made her the focus of the courtroom. If you have any questions you’d like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Sexual assault support services: MARS Australia (for men affected by rape and sexual abuse) https://marsaustralia.com.au/ on (07) 3857 1222, National Survivors Foundation https://igff.org.au/ on 1300 124 43 You can find all episodes of The Case of Alan Jones here. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/the-case-of/the-case-of-alan-jones/106995118 The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Politicians don't usually get assassinated in Australia. I say usually because in the mid 1990s, an Australian politician became the first MP to be assassinated while still in the job. John Newman, the MP for Cabramatta, was gunned down in the driveway of his home. Cabramatta was having a big problem with heroin and drug gangs at that exact moment. The Assassins podcast brings you the full story on YouTube, ABC Listen and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:45Stephen Stockwell?

  The relationship between rival broadcasters Alan Jones and Ray Hadley has been defined in court by slurs, threats and secret contracts. And that's before we even get to what Ray says he knew about the allegations. I'm Stephen Stockwell, welcome to episode 10 of The Case of Alan Jones. And just a heads up, there is some strong language in this episode, but we'll give you a warning before we get there.

• 1:09Speaker 03

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape.

• 1:14Speaker 04

  Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister.

• 1:19Speaker 05

  There was an 83 year old male arrested this morning.

• 1:22Speaker 06

  Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay.

• 1:27Speaker 03

  Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men.

• 1:31Speaker 07

  I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:37Stephen Stockwell?

  There have been some incredibly strong words thrown around the courtroom as Alan Jones' defence team have attempted to build up the rivalry between the man on trial and another former 2GB presenter, Ray Hadley. Therefore, at all, and at one point even the focus of the courtroom herself is ABC Court reporter Isabel Rowe. Isabel, lovely to have you back.

• 1:57Speaker 04

  Lovely to be here, Stocky.

• 1:58Stephen Stockwell?

  It's a pleasure to have you joining us for The Case of Alan Jones again. Fever's happened in the last week, can you wrap it up for us in 60 seconds or so?

• 2:07Speaker 04

  The most high profile witness so far that we've had in this case, Ray Hadley, has been called to give evidence. Ray Hadley is a former colleague of Alan Jones, an adversary we've heard, and someone who fell out with Alan Jones over these allegations. But given the evidence we've heard in court, the pair seem to have been at loggerheads much earlier than that, particularly after Ray Hadley signed a secret contract to take over Alan Jones' coveted breakfast radio spot, news of which reached Alan Jones in the halls of 2GB. We've heard some strong and offensive language that Ray Hadley used to Alan Jones' face

• 2:49Speaker 04

  and in text messages about him, and it has made a bit clearer the defence case against complainant C. The allegations from them that Ray Hadley conspired with complainant C essentially to try and destroy Alan Jones.

• 3:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Isabel. I'm really keen to unpack a bit about why we have spent so long talking about a media rivalry when really this is a case about indecent assault and sexual touching. Why are we spending so much time on this?

• 3:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the defence case here is in relation to all the complainants, that none of the allegations made by any of the six men ever happened. In their opening, Gabrielle Bashir for Alan Jones explained this media rivalry. She says that this trial is actually about treachery. It's about people pitting themselves against each other in the media scene. And what she meant by that specifically, and she named him in her opening, was Ray Hadley, in particular, someone who has worked with Alan Jones, he says, for, well, since

• 4:03Speaker 04

  the 80s essentially, but they ended up in these head to head spots at 2GB. And what the defence case is in relation to complainant C, who we've been hearing about in the last couple of episodes, is that complainant C went to Ray Hadley and Ray Hadley saw an opportunity to use him as a reason to complain about Alan Jones and try and bring him down. That is what the defence say has actually happened here.

• 4:32Stephen Stockwell?

  Right, okay. And so the focus has been this rivalry between Alan Jones and Ray Hadley. Alan Jones between breakfast show, Ray Hadley was following him immediately after doing the morning show at 2GB. So that's the rivalry between them. How does Ray Hadley fit into the allegations against Alan Jones?

• 4:49Speaker 04

  So we've heard from complainant C and we've heard now from Ray Hadley as well, that Ray Hadley was the first person that C sort of described in detail these allegations to. Complainant C says these allegations, which to remind you were eight charges of alleged kissing in the Macquarie Street apartment lift, in the 2GB lift and in touching him allegedly on the leg in the car and at a lunch. So those are the allegations. What C says and what Ray Hadley says is that in 2019, C confided in Ray Hadley about it.

• 5:32Speaker 04

  Ray Hadley was someone that C had known for some time. And Ray Hadley gave evidence that C essentially spoke to him and told him that he had been sexually assaulted by Mr Jones on a number of occasions at varying times in lift wells and other places. The Crown asked, did he use those words? And he said, he said, he put his hand on my language warning, cock, and kissed me. Now, Ray Hadley went on to talk more about this conversation. He says, I asked him if he was homosexual and whether he was consenting to it. And he broke down and cried and said, no, I hated it.

• 6:15Speaker 04

  I'm not homosexual. Ray Hadley says, I asked if he'd ever told anyone. He said he had told his, he'd not told his father and he had shared bits of it with his wife. He was, he said they talked about where the kisses happened. He said it was allegedly the work lifts. The Crown said, did C say anything else to you? And he said, he said that he was embarrassed and ashamed that he allowed it to happen, that he felt a sense of guilt that he'd allowed it to happen. So this was a fairly lengthy conversation, Ray Hadley says he had with C. It was about 30 to 40 minutes, he said.

• 6:55Speaker 04

  At various stages, he says he remembers C breaking down and sobbing. He says he stopped a few times, let him compose himself. He also says, Ray Hadley says that he offered to help him make a complaint to management, offered to help him make a complaint to police. And he says C declined, essentially swore him to secrecy. Now, what we've also heard from both C earlier and from Ray Hadley again, is that there was then a conversation with Peter Fitzsimons. Peter Fitzsimons is an author, a journalist, and Ray Hadley says he knew that Peter Fitzsimons

• 7:38Speaker 04

  was researching a story on Alan Jones. And so, Ray Hadley says, so C comes to me and makes these allegations. And that night, he goes and calls Peter Fitzsimons and says, you know, I've just had another person, another alleged victim, speak to me. And they, he tells Peter Fitzsimons, he'll, you know, put C on the phone. And essentially the next day, they're in the office together. Ray Hadley says, Peter Fitzsimons, he said, or Ray Hadley says, he calls Peter Fitzsimons and puts C on the phone. And C doesn't identify himself, but he then goes through in detail again, the allegations while Ray Hadley is sitting there.

• 8:23Speaker 04

  And C gave evidence about this as well, slightly different. C says that the detailed conversation with Ray Hadley and then the call from Peter Fitzsimons happened in the same meeting. Ray Hadley says they spoke the day before and then spoke to Peter Fitzsimons the day later. And then, as we know, Kate McLemont, a Sydney Morning Herald journalist, ended up publishing stories in 2023, which did detail some of the allegations that C made.

• 8:55Stephen Stockwell?

  Right, okay. And, you know, with the defence argument being that none of this ever happened, that all of these allegations are false, is the suggestion from their line of questioning that this is all made up for Ray Hadley to get back at Alan Jones for some reason?

• 9:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, so on Wednesday, that's when we really started to hear some of the detail from the defence case about these supposed collusions between Ray Hadley and C and this media rivalry that they say was, you know, intended to take down Alan Jones. What we've heard previously in this case, and we got it from Ray Hadley as well, was that Ray Hadley says he signed a contract at the end of 2018, which had in his agreement to take over the breakfast show from Alan Jones. Now, Ray Hadley was doing the morning show at the time. The breakfast slot is the, is the most high profile. Ray Hadley says he signed that agreement and he's, the plan was that he was going

• 9:54Speaker 04

  to take over from the 1st of July 2019. And it was a secret agreement in that only he and a couple of the management knew about it. But what eventuated was that rumours spread and people started talking about it in the halls of the radio station, as, as is tends to be the case in workplaces and media in particular.

• 10:17Speaker 04

  Ray Hadley says that he was on $2 million doing mornings and he was offered $4 million to do the breakfast show. And he said that John Singleton, one of the shareholders of Macquarie Media, had told him that he'd had enough of Jones costing him millions, those were his words, with defamation cases. He says they offered him the job, he didn't pursue it, they came to me. However, it never eventuated. Alan Jones continued in the breakfast show. What Ray Hadley says happened was that others, when there was about to be a takeover deal

• 10:56Speaker 04

  from Channel Nine, Nine ended up owning 2GB, someone else in high management said they would not do that deal unless Alan Jones was hosting breakfast. And Ray Hadley said, well, little problem here, I've got a piece of paper that says I'm doing breakfast for $4 million. And they said, well, you'll cost, you know, 85 million. And he said, all right, I'll stand down, but you've got to meet the monetary value. And so he kept doing the morning show on his evidence for $4 million a year. He said he was happy to do that. He said to the court, I said I'd do midnight to dawn for $4 million if you wanted me to. And there was a few laughs with that evidence.

• 11:38Speaker 04

  And that was his story as to why this contract negotiation ended up the way that it did.

• 11:45Stephen Stockwell?

  The way that Ray Hadley paints this is that he was quite happy to stay in mornings, that he wasn't particularly passionate about doing the breakfast slot, that, you know, he needed that extra $2 million bucks, the doubling of his salary to get up at 1am as opposed to 3am for breakfast. Isabel, when you say a high profile person at Nine, we've talked a bit about this, a bit about the fact in this podcast that Alan Jones had some very powerful connections, he was very well connected with politicians. Did I hear the name Peter Costello mentioned, someone who was on the board of Nine, former treasurer?

• 12:16Speaker 04

  Yes, that's right. Peter Costello supposedly was insisting that for John Singleton to do the deal, that Alan Jones had to be doing breakfast. There were a few high profile names thrown around yesterday. These are massive media deals that we're talking about with some pretty big numbers in the background.

• 12:45Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, I heard the name Hugh Marks thrown around a bit as well, again, former boss of Channel Nine, now the boss of the ABC.

• 12:51Speaker 04

  Now our boss, that's right. Yeah, he was mentioned as someone that Ray Hadley had a good relationship with and spoke to at one point about this contract negotiations. He says he had Hugh Marks backing to take over the breakfast show, but never happened.

• 13:09Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, got very in the weeds in the sort of media gossip for a period in there. And I felt like we kind of got broken out of some of that at times with just some of the language that was used. Now, we were kind of quite dry in this, you know, kind of media politic, who knew what, when, but when you got to the kind of like relationship between Alan Jones and Ray Hadley, and at points of like significant tension, some of the language being thrown around court was really kind of surprising.

• 13:34Speaker 04

  Yeah. Look, Ray Hadley was pretty upfront about the fact that he spoke to Alan Jones in pretty derogatory terms, he spoke about Alan Jones in pretty derogatory terms. He gave evidence that at one point Alan Jones was trying, he'd heard Alan Jones was trying to dig up dirt on him in the office and got somebody to make an assault complaint against him. Now, he says he found out about this assault complaint, that he'd supposedly hit somebody else in the office, but CCTV in all of the office halls showed that that did not happen. When Ray Hadley says he found out or heard that Alan Jones had tried to frame him for

• 14:15Speaker 04

  this assault and was trying to dig up dirt on him, he says he went into Alan Jones's office, slammed the door, and I told Jones he was a C word and a dog. And then he told police that he said this. He had no qualms in saying he used those words. The defence asked him, you know, did you say that? And he was like, yep, sounds like something I would say. He was also taken to text messages that he sent both Alan Jones and others. There was one text message where he said to Alan Jones, you know, I love you above ground.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  And that was a message sent to Alan Jones when he was unwell. And the defence said, when you said I love you, that was rubbish, wasn't it? And he said, well, we've known each other for 35 years, we had a tumultuous relationship, but I didn't want him to be in ill health. He said it was a joke, I love you above ground. There was another set of text messages that came out, these were messages in October 2019 that Ray Hadley had texted complainant C when they were talking about Alan Jones. The context of the text message wasn't given, but in the message, Ray Hadley was asked, did you use the words Jones uttered as a homophobic slur, starting with F?

• 15:40Speaker 04

  And Ray Hadley said, it appears to be the case, yes, that I did use those words. And he was asked, is that something you would say about Mr. Jones? And he said, well, I don't use that word often, but clearly I did in this text message.

• 15:56Stephen Stockwell?

  And I will say, Isabel, it is quite confronting hearing those words in court. Gabrielle Beshear is reciting the full messages, you know, she's not holding back or, you know, saying C word or anything like that, she's using these four words. And it is quite confronting at times to hear that language. As well as all of this, the relationship between Alan Jones and Ray Hadley, we've also gotten into the suggestion, or the defence suggestion, that Ray Hadley was prepared to use his power as a radio host to denigrate people who spoke out about the allegations. You know, Jason Morrison, in his evidence, talked about how people attacked him for saying that he wasn't aware of any of these allegations against Alan Jones occurring. Is this the other side of that conversation?

• 16:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we've heard that Ray Hadley, the day after allegations were published in the Sydney Morning Herald in 2023, he went on the radio, went on air, and he made a statement that had been pre-checked by his legal department, saying essentially that he had discovered that a person who was referred to in the story was someone that he knew. And he called Jason Morrison, this is another colleague of theirs who's previously given evidence, that he didn't see certain things happen at the lunch.

• 17:17Speaker 04

  He says he called Jason Morrison on air a denier. And Jason Morrison gave evidence, he was particularly upset about that earlier in this case. We were also taken to messages between Ray Hadley and C that came out, that were sent to each other in the days after these allegations were published in the Sydney Morning Herald. These were messages that were subpoenaed by C or under C's phone. We heard that Ray Hadley was subpoenaed to hand over these text messages and he didn't.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  So these messages said things like, the C word is not just taking on victims, he's taking on me and Kate, Kate being Kate McLeimont. I won't rest until we bury him, figuratively speaking or literally. Gabrielle Beshear said, you meant burying him under the ground, under the ground, didn't you? And he said, yes. There was also messages in December of that year from Ray Hadley to C saying, that C word will be in the fetal position when he reads this story in the morning. It's been 50 years in the making. When I get back on air on January 15, one by one, I will tear his supporters apart.

• 18:40Speaker 04

  Special mention for one bloke, when he says he never saw any evidence of that behaviour. Now, he was asked, was that one bloke Jason Morrison? And he said, I can't recall, I don't know. But yeah, some pretty choice words that Ray Hadley was using to C to describe Alan Jones and, yeah, describe, I guess, the impact of the story that was about to come out, had just come out.

• 19:06Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. As well as Ray Hadley, you know, he's been the focus of the evidence for the last couple of days, we've also heard from another colleague, someone who went to Alan Jones's hotel room in Melbourne with C when, you know, this is a time of a visit where C alleges that Alan Jones kissed him. Am I right in thinking this is another witness that we can't name, though?

• 19:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, so this is a person that we can't name because we don't want to overly identify and narrow down who C is, but it's someone who worked with Alan Jones and knew C. We heard that in 2012, C travelled to Melbourne, met up with this witness, and they went quite late at night to Alan Jones's apartment, he was staying at a hotel in Melbourne, and broadcasting from there. They'd been to an AFL game, they went to visit afterwards. And C has given allegations previously that while this isn't a subject of a charge, he went to look around the apartment because Alan Jones said, come and have a look where I'm staying.

• 20:10Speaker 04

  He alleges that Alan Jones took him into a wardrobe and kissed him, and then C sort of says pushes him away and they go back out and join this other witness who's sitting out there waiting for them. Now, this witness was asked about that, he says he didn't see anything, he was sitting, you know, back in the living room, he didn't see them go off, he saw them go off, but he didn't follow them, he didn't see what allegedly happened inside the wardrobe.

• 20:40Speaker 04

  And yeah, he, he basically denies having any knowledge of, of that alleged occurrence until much later, until it was, you know, it came out and, um, it was in articles and, and he ended up making a statement to police.

• 20:57Stephen Stockwell?

  Isabel, as well as, uh, this witness who we can't name, we also heard from C's wife, complainant C's wife, it was short but quite emotional evidence from her. I mean, she was talking about, uh, disclosure that C made with, uh, a group of friends that she recalled. And then also how her and C spoke about that privately, uh, as well at one point. And he disclosed, uh, kind of the detail of that to her as well. Um, and we also wrapped up Jason Morrison's evidence too. Uh, he came back after some significant legal argument, uh, last week. Uh, he was asked more about Kate McLamont, took a little while to get through that. Jason Morrison, a man who, um, was very happy, uh, speaking at length in the, uh, in the witness box. Uh, but there was one point at the end of his evidence,

• 21:39Stephen Stockwell?

  and this sort of points to his, uh, you know, penchant for, uh, kind of elaborating where he was told that his evidence was finished. And then he said, oh, no, I just want to raise something with you. It's not to do with the case. It's actually, you know, nothing to do with the evidence, but I'd like to raise it with you here. And his honour just shut him down. It's like, no, no, no, if it's nothing to do with the case, please don't tell me that. Don't get into it. Um, but we found out later that what he was trying to raise was that he had potentially been threatened for giving evidence.

• 22:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh, he ended up telling, well, speaking to his lawyers outside court after his honour said, no, no, don't raise it here. And then he obviously spoke to the defence about it, uh, because the defence then ended up raising it, uh, when we came back in and saying that, uh, essentially that morning, um, so after some of his evidence before he was continuing, uh, Jason Morrison had received some sort of threatening email from a member of the public. They didn't go into what it was. Um, but the defence were very, said they're very concerned about it. Gabrielle Bashir said, you know, this is not acceptable, that someone is going to be threatened for, you know, saying what they're

• 22:45Speaker 04

  saying in court. Uh, and Gabrielle Bashir sort of wanted Judge Walsh to make some sort of statement about it. And he was like, you know, what statement, what power do I have to do about anything? Uh, he said, I don't want to read it. I don't want to, I don't want you to hand it up in the case. This is not evidence. I'm not sort of interested in this. Like if it's a police matter, the police will handle it. Um, I don't want it to be part of the case essentially. Um, and then he'd sort of said, look, you know, surely it's obvious, um, to people. Don't email threatening things to witnesses, you know, while they're on the stand. I hope that's clear. Um, so that was about as much as he

• 23:29Speaker 04

  had to say about it. And that was, I think, the end, end of it really.

• 23:33Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. Gentle reminder not to break the law, which is, uh, you know, probably pretty good advice in, uh, in most instances. Um, another moment that sort of stuck with me as well, you know, speaking of Jason Morrison being up for a bit of a chat in the, um, in the witness box, Ray Hadley as well, also up for a chat, got very comfortable in, uh, in that space actually, even during cross-examination, uh, he apparently winked with defence barrister Gabrielle Bashir, asking him very directly, did you just wink at the prosecution? And, uh, Ray Hadley said, no, no, no, not winking at the prosecution. I was winking at a journalist in a white coat at the back of the room. Isabel, what were you wearing yesterday?

• 24:10Speaker 04

  I was the lady in the white coat. It was the most bizarre turn of events and it escalated from one to a thousand very quickly. But basically what happened was, as you say, Ray Hadley winked apparently during his evidence, a, a truly strange thing to do. Um, the defence thought he was winking at the DPP. He says, no, no, no, I was winking at this person and sort of points towards me who's sitting directly behind the DPP. And everyone turned to look, to look at me and I was like, I, I actually didn't see it. I was looking, you know, I was taking notes. Um, and he said, sorry, I was, I was winking at one of the reporters who called me yesterday or today scruffy in an article. He said, I think it

• 24:55Speaker 04

  was this woman from the Sydney Morning Herald, but I actually now don't think that that woman in the white coat is from the Sydney Morning Herald. And I was like shaking my head like, not me. Um, but the defence and the judge picked up on his wording of called me yesterday or today. Uh, they said, did you get a call from a reporter? And he was like, no, no, no, I, I was called scruffy. And then the defence said, what time did you receive a call from a reporter? And he said, I'll have to check my phone. Uh, and then the judge said, well, you can't be speaking to the reporters. And he said, oh, actually I did speak to Kate McLamont. She called me, but we were talking about ICAC. Uh, and then

• 25:40Speaker 04

  it just sort of escalated. And, um, the judge said that it was, you know, potential contempt of court issue, that someone would be speaking to a journalist. Uh, this Sydney Morning Herald journalist stands up in the court and tries to defend herself. The judge didn't really want to speak to her. He said, this is going to be a matter for the sheriff now. We'll have the sheriff investigate. They're going to check through your phone and pass it on to court security if there's been a breach. Uh, look, in the end, I did speak to this journalist from the Sydney Morning Herald, who I am not outside of court. And, uh, she was checked, her phone was checked. She in fact did not call Ray Hadley. She had called

• 26:20Speaker 04

  him, uh, or she hadn't even called him scruffy. She had said he'd spoken gruffly. So he hadn't even read the story properly. So we went from a wink to a potential contempt of court situation and back again. Um, so perhaps we'll hear more about that today. Once his honour is satisfied that no one's broken any rules that we know of.

• 26:41Stephen Stockwell?

  We'll have an update for you in our, uh, next episode on the, the case of the wink, wink gate, as I've been calling it in our, our chat. Um, we are getting a heap of questions, Isabel, through to [email protected]. I'd love to run through a couple of them quickly now, uh, while we've got the time. One here from Alice, uh, she's got a question about the, the way that the charges will be assessed against Alan Jones. Um, basically is this something that he'll be found guilty or not guilty of overall, or could have some counts guilty and some counts not guilty?

• 27:11Speaker 04

  He could definitely have some counts found guilty and some counts found not guilty. Every charge will be looked at, uh, on its merit. Uh, so yes, there could be some sort of mixed result potentially.

• 27:23Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Isabel. Uh, thank you, Alice as well. Uh, one here from Julie in Canberra, two-part question, what we in the business like to call a double-barreled question. Uh, one, who decides the letter used for complainants? We've had complainant C and complainant J so far. And two, does anonymity only apply if the complainant supports it?

• 27:41Speaker 04

  Uh, in terms of choosing the letter, I believe the prosecution chooses them at some point, um, to, so that everyone is consistent. So, you know, they refer to C, we all use C. Um, uh, I don't know how they choose the letter, doesn't particularly mean anything. And, uh, yes, the anonymity applies as a rule. Uh, we are not allowed to identify the complainants. Uh, however, the complainant can, uh, opt to be identified, uh, potentially after the trial if they really wanted to, if they choose to speak to the media and identify themselves, that's up to them.

• 28:18Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. Thank you, Isabel. Thank you, Julie. Great question. And, uh, Isabel, speaking of the white coat, we have a sartorial question from Maha. They are missing the descriptions of what Alan Jones is wearing. They say if it was a woman, I reckon the media would be talking about it. Um, and Maha, well, we have been talking about it. I have actually wanted to talk a little bit about what Alan Jones has been wearing to court, but it hasn't felt quite right after some of the content we've been getting through. It's usually something we get to at the end of an episode and it just hasn't fitted with, uh, with some of that. Because you've asked a question though, uh, I am keen to dive into this. Isabel, what is Alan Jones wearing?

• 28:51Speaker 04

  Well, in the defence of, uh, the ABC, I would like to say that I don't think we would usually talk about what people, what women are wearing, but I know that the media does. Um, I, what I would say about what Alan Jones is wearing is that often a person who's coming to, to court as a defendant, uh, if they've been charged with something, they will try and lay low. You know, people sometimes run into court with a mask on their face, sunnies, that sort of thing. They don't want to be seen. Alan Jones, I think, has resigned himself to the fact he's going to be seen. Everyone knows he's there. Everyone knows who he is. He is wearing some, every day a very different and new bright suit. Um, they're always, there's often a pocket square, uh, that goes with his socks. He's

• 29:35Speaker 04

  often has worn a, um, I think he's doubled up a few times on a lime green coat. Uh, and a, there's a pale pink shirt. He is dressed in a, so it's a suit every day and, uh, there's always colour. Um, they're always thoughtfully put together.

• 29:52Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. I mean, he has been wonderfully dressed, Isabel. It is something that has stuck out to me as, um, certainly when I was in court in Sydney for the first week of this trial. Um, a couple of nice pairs of brown loafers that I saw him with as well. Um, I will say, you know, well, it might be nice to think that the ABC won't talk about what women are wearing in court. When we were doing Mushroom Case Daily, we did describe what Aaron Patterson was wearing in, uh, in the Moorewall courthouse when we were following that one along as well. Um, I suppose it's all part of just being the eyes and ears in the, in the courtroom. So these are things if you were in there, you would see and you would notice. And this is just our way of trying to take you into the courtroom and, and show you those things as well. I have no doubt that if you're in the courtroom in the Downey Centre for the case of Alan Jones, you would notice the outfits that

• 30:34Stephen Stockwell?

  he is wearing. Um, as well as the question that we've had there from Maha, um, also question here from Hannah in South East Queensland. Hannah was asked, how many categories in my email, emailing filing system? And Hannah, I'm very excited to say that there are 30. I'm so glad someone has finally asked this question because I've been, uh, very keen to talk about it. Um, and you can certainly know some of those categories as well. Very happy to talk you through them. Uh, we've got the obvious ones like Alan Jones, Isla Bell, uh, the two intruders that are attached to cases that we are covering. So I can keep in touch with the questions being asked for specific cases. And then of course, there's the less obvious ones, things like more of a statement, uh, or post-trial question as well. So things don't get lost, uh, when we're doing our post-trial coverage. Also a tag

• 31:17Stephen Stockwell?

  for feedback as well. I really like hearing your thoughts on the pod, uh, and I don't want to lose any of that. So I like to keep it all together. If you have any questions about my email filing system, um, or this case, I guess, or any feedback for the pod, we do really love, uh, hearing from you. So please get in touch. [email protected] is where you can reach us. Um, Isabel, where are we off to next?

• 31:38Speaker 04

  We're still in Ray Hadley's evidence, so we're going to hear more, uh, really specific questions, I think, today about whether or not he, you know, concocted this complaint with, with complainant C. They are the allegations from the defence team. Uh, he'll then be re-examined by the Crown and then we'll be on to the next witness at some point. Uh, another witness in relation to complainant C, but we don't know who.

• 32:03Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you so much, Isabel. We'll be back in your feed on Tuesday next week. Grab yourself around ABC Listen, best place to listen to the case of. And if you want to share this with friends and family, that would be very much appreciated. It makes it easy for people to find us. You can pop it in your friendly neighbourhood group chat and start some conversations that you can have with your friends throughout the week, uh, surrounding the case of Alan Jones. I'll talk to you very soon.

• 32:27Stephen Stockwell?

  The case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Miller and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. Thank you to video producer Dylan Bean for making us look great on YouTube and ABC Listen. Thank you to senior lawyer Jasmine Sims for her legal advice every day, our legal queen. Also to the New South Wales newsroom and to audio studios manager, Eric George. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and more Andrey people.