Charlie Cox

Nobody can question the perfect casting of Charlie Cox as Matt Murdoch aka Daredevil now but it wasn't so long before that opportunity came that Charlie was questioning his career and pondering another job to support himself. Charlie joins Josh at this live taping at the 92nd Street Y to talk about all of it, his big break in STARDUST, his friendship (including a surprise appearance via video message!) with Tom Hiddleston, and why he wouldn't trade Daredevil for Batman. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! UPCOMING EVENTS! 5/5 -- Stanley Tucci in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 5/13 -- Matt & Ross Duffer in LA -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 5/17 -- Billy Eichner in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠ 5/18 -- Power Ballad w/Paul Rudd & Nick Jonas -- ⁠Tickets here⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  It's pretty cool having a six-year-old boy who's obsessed with superheroes and has just discovered that his dad is one. That's pretty cool.

• 1:09Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins.

• 1:17Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, a first-time guest we've wanted him forever. Daredevil himself, Charlie Cox, joins me to talk about his entire career and of course, the latest season of Daredevil: Born Again. Hey guys, thanks as always for checking out the podcast. Thanks for subscribing, wherever you're doing it, on YouTube, on Spotify. I appreciate you guys. If you haven't already subscribed, give it a shot. It's time. Check out Happy, Sad, Confused every week. Two episodes a week. Okay, so this latest one, really fun one. Like I said, I've been wanting to have Charlie on the show forever. He is, um... Of course, the iconic role that is Daredevil, and he really owns that role through the

• 1:59Josh Horowitz?

  earlier incarnation and now this truly born again incarnation of Daredevil. It's really been cool to see him evolve with that character and his in his own career. This is a conversation we taped at the 92nd Street Y, of course, one of my live events there. It was great to get to know Charlie and talk about his entire career, the arc of his career, and this latest season. I would say that it's probably best for you to have seen most of Daredevil: Born Again as we tape this. The seventh of the eight episodes had run, so that's probably the best way to consume this if you're worried about spoilers. Beyond Charlie, I do want to mention quickly, check out our Patreon, patreon.com/happy say I'm confused.

• 2:42Josh Horowitz?

  That's where you get all the early access to every single episode, plus discount codes to our live events, merch, autographed merch, all sorts of fun stuff. And speaking of live events, like the Charlie Cox one, you could have gotten in on that if you were a Patreon member, you could have gotten early access or even free tickets, depending on the tier level. We have so many cool events coming up. L.A., I'm coming at you very soon. May 13th, get your tickets now, there are still plenty of good seats available. The Duffer Brothers, Matt and Ross Duffer. You know how much like news they generate when they talk to me. This is gonna be the third time on the podcast and we are diving deep once again into Stranger Things, the entire series, but really the ending of the show, that final season. There're gonna be some nice surprises, there're gonna be some stuff for folks in the audience

• 3:27Josh Horowitz?

  at certain tier levels, so if you know somebody out in L.A. that's a Stranger Things fan, spread the good word because this is gonna be a really cool event, May 13th in Los Angeles. Then I'm coming right back to New York for a couple really cool events, May 17th, Billy Eichner, that's gonna be fun, he's obviously one of the funnest guys alive, chatting with Billy about his new memoir. May 18th, I'm talking to, get this, Paul Rudd and Nick Jonas? Yeah, talking about their new movie Power Ballad, which is excellent, we're gonna screen the movie and I'm gonna have a chat with them. John Carney, the great director who once directed this one, fantastic. And I think that's all I can announce for now, but always more events cooking, trust me, we keep busy around here. Thank you guys, as always, for checking out Happy Say Confused, and I'm so thrilled that

• 4:12Josh Horowitz?

  I get to share this one with you. Please enjoy, without any further ado, me and Charlie Cox.

• 4:21Josh Horowitz?

  Hi, everybody. How's it going? Save some for Charlie, please. My name's Josh Horowitz. I'm the host of Happy, Sad, Confused. You are inside of my podcast. Taj was right, yes. This is a live taping of Happy, Sad, Confused. I am, yes, I am so thrilled that you guys are joining me selling out this theater tonight because we have a first-time guest on the podcast tonight. Are you guys fans of Daredevil, maybe?

• 4:45Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, good.

• 4:49Josh Horowitz?

  He's an Englishman, but somehow he's become a New York superhero icon. We'll forgive him for that. He's a fantastic actor. I am just in love with what he's done with Matt Murdoch, aka Daredevil. He's taken the night off from defending the streets of Hell's Kitchen to come defend the streets of the Upper East Side here with us tonight. Please give it up for the one and only Charlie Cox, everybody. Come on.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Thank you. Hi, guys.

• 5:31Josh Horowitz?

  Don't embarrass him, guys. He's just a shy actor.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  English, sort of shy Englishman.

• 5:37Josh Horowitz?

  I thought we agreed you were gonna come in costume tonight. No Daredevil costume?

• 5:41Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, apologies. It's in the dry cleaners.

• 5:43Josh Horowitz?

  What's your, what is your relationship with that costume? Having done this for a while now, have you reconciled the good and bad and the ugly of?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, there's been a few of them.

• 5:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  And we've had some, yeah, there's been an interesting kind of evolution. And it's always fun to have an upgrade or to see the new one. And especially as you get to know the comics, like, play the hits. We've now managed to get quite a few of them in. What's really fun about the one in this season? Which I now cannot spoil, which I was terrified of for so long. But this one that we have in this season, which is the black with the red kind of coming through, the more physical altercations he gets into, is kind of the first suit that is unique to our show and not the comic books, it doesn't exist on page. So that's kind of fun.

• 6:37Josh Horowitz?

  Along the way, over the years, have you given specific notes or different, do you kind of let the writers, the showrunners dictate what the costume is going to be?

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Actually, I think that department is completely autonomous from even the show itself. That's somewhere high up in Marvel, that the showrunner doesn't get to decide, the producers probably are part of the conversation, but I don't think that the TV producers get to decide. That is a very high up, behind closed doors Marvel decision.

• 7:05Josh Horowitz?

  I would say that Daredevil, you know, biased because you're here with me tonight, one of the cooler costumes, cooler looks in the MCU, wouldn't we agree? Yes?

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Sure, for sure, yeah.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and like, you know, I like that he doesn't have a cape.

• 7:22Josh Horowitz?

  Capes get in the way!

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Listen, capes are cool, it can be cool, but I'm glad I don't have one. They do get in the way. I hear from fellow friends who play superheroes that they're annoying.

• 7:32Josh Horowitz?

  Probably half your friends have played a superhero at this point, right?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  I did have a funny, like, a funny moment in this costume this season when, I'll say this without too many graphic details, but essentially, the first time you properly see the costume, I'm crawling out of the East River. And, to be fair, they had said, you know, "We'll pick you up as, like, you're already on your feet." And I was like, "That's not cool." Like, you know, it's got to be like he's, you know, just been underwater for, you know, three or four minutes. So I insisted on, like, crawling out. And anyway, my stomach didn't do very well from being in the East River.

• 8:11Josh Horowitz?

  Shocking, it's so clean, it seems perfect.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  So there was a couple of days later, we were back on set and we were in Williamsburg somewhere, or Greenpoint, I think, and there was a crowd of people and it was the first time the suit was being, had been photographed, the paparazzi had got there and they, you know, and I could see all these people seeing the new suit for the first time. And there was a sense of like, and it is cool.

• 8:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  But in that moment, I was like, ah, if only these guys knew how close I was to needing to get this off very, very quickly. And I walked, when I got a break, I walked into my green room and I said to Christie, my dresser, helps me get it on and off because it takes a team. I was like, listen Christie, you need to get this off in record time.

• 8:53Josh Horowitz?

  Code red.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Because I'm not in great shape right now.

• 8:56Josh Horowitz?

  Before we come back to more about Daredevil, and there's a lot to talk about, I'm just curious, like, you've spent a lot of time in New York over the years, between Daredevil and theater. I mean, is New York as much home as London was back in the day to you? Do you feel like a New Yorker at this point?

• 9:11Speaker 02

  No, I don't think I'll ever, I would never say that out loud. You know, not a true New Yorker, but I feel like, you know, I've spent the majority of my professional life here.

• 9:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  You know, I was brought over the first time to do Ballerina's Empire in 2011 and other than like a brief stint back home after that job ended, I've been here pretty much ever since.

• 9:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. I was saying backstage, I had the privilege of seeing you in Betrayal on Broadway with Tom Hiddleston and Zawie Ashton. Was that a big moment to be not over here?

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:48Josh Horowitz?

  For someone that's done a lot of stage back home, to be on Broadway.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a huge bucket list moment. And also to get to do like such an iconic British play from one of the greatest, you know, British playwrights. That was a huge, huge honor. And yeah, I remember thinking like when we were trying to figure out if we, there was a moment where, because we weren't supposed to transfer, we did it in London and we weren't supposed to transfer, Tom wasn't supposed to be available. I don't think Tom's ever available.

• 10:15Josh Horowitz?

  Busy man.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  And luckily the night manager too pushed, or was able to push, and suddenly there was a theater available. And there was a moment where was it gonna happen, was it not gonna happen? I just remember thinking, this is one of those moments where if it doesn't happen, it might never. So, very, very fortunate.

• 10:32Josh Horowitz?

  Well, Tom Hiddleston is a very busy guy, but he did make some time to send in a message for you.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  No way.

• 10:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, he did.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 10:38Josh Horowitz?

  Let's take a look at a little message from your friend Tom.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  No, you're joking me. Here he is.

• 10:41Speaker 05

  Ah, hello, chaps. Uh, hey, Josh. Hey, Charlie. Um, I can't think of two finer men. Um, and I hope you're having a lovely time. Um, to everyone in the audience, I also hope you're having a lovely time. Um, Charlie, you're facing questions from one of the great question askers in the game. So, uh, I thought I'd add a little something to the mix. Um, we performed Harold Pinter's Betrayal two hundred and twenty-two times in 2019.

• 11:22Speaker 05

  What is your happiest memory of betrayal? And does it involve a piece of melon?

• 11:33Speaker 05

  Also, second question. When are we gonna play squash?

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Oh, that's so nice.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  So, did, did you reach out to him?

• 11:46Josh Horowitz?

  I did.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  That is so nice.

• 11:48Josh Horowitz?

  I want to go to where he is.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  He's in Hampstead Heath.

• 11:50Josh Horowitz?

  Beautiful.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he lives around the corner from, from Hampstead Heath, and he, he walks and runs with Bobby most of the lot.

• 11:56Josh Horowitz?

  I've still never met Bobby, one of these days.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Bobby is very special.

• 11:59Josh Horowitz?

  We can talk dogs later. We've got, I've got.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  When we can, when we did Betrayal, when we did Betrayal, during that time on Broadway, there were two birthdays. One of them was my daughter, and the other one was Bobby's. And Bobby's birthday was a, was, there was more money spent on Bobby's birthday.

• 12:21Josh Horowitz?

  So, his, he had a question about your happiest memory that might have involved melon? Does that ring a bell?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, so there's a scene between the two of us and Jamie Lloyd, our amazing director, staged it, so we were right at the front, I mean closer to the edge of the stage than you and I are now. And he gets very cross with me during the scene. And we're also eating. And eating whilst acting onstage is difficult in and of its own right. Also, at this point, when we came to Broadway, we've been doing the play since January and it was now towards November or October. So we were, we'd seen each other every day, we were very, very close. And when you're that close, if anything goes wrong onstage and you see a twinkle in the

• 13:10Speaker 02

  other person's eye, trying not to laugh. So he's supposed to be very cross with me, so he absolutely can't laugh. Anyway, there was a couple occasions where he's eating melon and on one of the occasions he stabbed his melon because he's so angry with me. And he gesticulates like that and the melon goes flying in the air and lands in my wineglass.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  And I can kind of laugh because I'm kind of confined, his anger humorous to an extent.

• 13:42Josh Horowitz?

  Justify it.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  But he is, I can see the tears coming down his face and he's trying not to laugh. Anyway, it was a lovely, lovely memory.

• 13:54Josh Horowitz?

  We gotta get Loki and Daredevil in a scene together.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  I know, come on, I know.

• 14:00Josh Horowitz?

  Have you, have you let the powers that be know, like, we go way back, that'd be kind of fun?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Well, when we, the first season of Born Again was originally before the strike, was gonna be 18 episodes long and Tom was gonna direct one of the episodes.

• 14:15Josh Horowitz?

  What?

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, one of the great losses of the back half of that original season, even though the changes that were made to the show were needed and necessary and made it much better. But he was gonna direct episode 12 or something.

• 14:31Josh Horowitz?

  My god, that would've been amazing.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we were already like on the phone collaborating and coming up with ideas and stuff, that would've been lovely.

• 14:44Speaker 00

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• 15:14Speaker 06

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• 15:47Josh Horowitz?

  I'm curious, like, so, coming up, like, I don't know if you knew Tom before The Trail or what, but like, I've heard stories and I've talked to many of your contemporaries that knew you way back when. It seems like there was, is it fair to say there was a group of you that kind of like came of age together? And who would you, who would you consider that group to be?

• 16:05Speaker 02

  So, I went to an audition in, I was living in LA trying to get work and I, but I had had early success. I was, I was kind of...

• 16:15Josh Horowitz?

  Is this pre or post Stardust, there we say?

• 16:16Speaker 02

  It was post Stardust.

• 16:18Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  And so I was in a, but which had not hit in the, thanks.

• 16:23Josh Horowitz?

  There they are.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  It was post Stardust, which, which, as, as, as kind of charming as that movie is, had not hit in the way that they had hoped. And so I was kind of like, I was, I was not getting the, the opportunities I was, I'd wanted to and was struggling to get work. And I was in an audition and Tom recognized me and came up to me and said, "Oh, I saw that film and we got chatting." And he was out in LA trying to audition for stuff. And so we became friends immediately in Los Angeles. And he came over for dinner one night and said, "I've got an audition to audition for Thor, the part of Thor as well."

• 17:03Speaker 02

  And then obviously that whole process ended up being what it was and he was so busy I'd we kind of lost contact for probably eight years or so.

• 17:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  But we had a fast friendship for a period of time in in London.

• 17:13Josh Horowitz?

  And and the other guys that I've heard about like tell me if they kind of cross paths or not but there's like Andrew Garfield, Eddie Redmayne, Jamie Dornan.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  So we were all really close.

• 17:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  So we and some of those guys all lived together. We were all in Los Angeles, all trying to get work. Um, you know, this has been documented, talked about a lot. You know, I always say I've got a great photograph um of myself, Andrew, Eddie, Andrew Garfield, Eddie Redmayne, Jamie Dornan and myself all on the beach in Venice and we'd all I just remember we were all out of work and they had they were gonna make a movie. I remember they were making this movie Bioshock. I don't know if they ever made it. I don't know what happened. It was like based on a computer game.

• 17:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  But we had all found out on the same Friday that we hadn't got it.

• 17:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  And so it was like, which was a relief by the way.

• 18:00Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Because as long as no one got it where everyone's.

• 18:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, right. So when you get something like Stardust, that is a huge break. That's Matthew Vaughn at the time and that's, you know, it's Claire Danes, it's Michelle Pfeiffer, it's De Niro with Neil Gaiman writing it.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:16Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, like, at the time, what are your recollection recollections of that time period? I mean, was did you feel like I've had I've got it made now? Like, what was your sense?

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Well, when I got the job, it was Charlie Cox. I was the first one cast, so.

• 18:31Josh Horowitz?

  Start with Charlie Cox. Everybody says that, yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  And Matthew obviously had produced unbelievable movies.

• 18:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  And he'd made Layer Cake, which was tremendous, but he wasn't the Matthew, you know, he hadn't proven himself over and over again as a director at that point. Um, and maybe it was just also kind of my youth, but and ignorance, but like I didn't, I remember thinking, oh, great, this is a cool movie. But as we were then going through the process and suddenly Michelle Pfeiffer signed on and Claire Danes and Rupert Everett and Peter O'Toole and Robert De Niro, I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna be fired. Like, Orlando Bloom is definitely available for this.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  So no, and then, yeah, the filming of that was was just life changing. It was unbelievable. It was so much fun and and.

• 19:17Josh Horowitz?

  I do know enough about Matthew, though, that he's like, he can be a tough cookie. He's not like warm and fuzzy as a director.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 19:24Josh Horowitz?

  Like, Taron Egerton talks openly. He's talked openly. Like, he gives it. He gave him shit on that.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And by the way, I a hundred percent. I'm sure that's true. I love Matthew.

• 19:32Josh Horowitz?

  Well, and so does Taron.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I remember. I do remember. I hope he doesn't kill me for saying this. I remember the first scene we shot was with and by this point, I had got to know Matthew and his sense of humor. And we're both British and men. And I was kind of, you know, but Claire hadn't really got to know him yet. Like, and so and on our first, literally, the first shot of the movie is just us walking in Scotland. And he after he said, like, OK, cut. Can you go again? Claire, you're kind of walking like a weird. And that was his that was his note. And he did an impression. I was like, oh, dear.

• 20:12Josh Horowitz?

  So post Stardust, it's kind of a little bit of a rude awakening after that. It doesn't perform like everybody had hoped. And correct me if I'm wrong, you leave L.A., you actually kind of run out of money, and you're kind of like reevaluating where you're at in the industry. And Boardwalk Empire did kind of help you come back in a way.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. So it had I'd had a I'd been taken out of drama school to do The Merchant of Venice with Al Pacino and Jeremy Irons, which was an unbelievable experience. I'd gone from that on to a Disney movie with Heath Ledger and also with Jeremy Irons again, which was Casanova, which was silly and fun. But, you know, and very soon after that, straight on to Stardust. So it was all working really, really nicely. And I was thinking, I like this acting gig, you know.

• 20:58Josh Horowitz?

  Awesome.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, yeah, Stardust didn't quite. It didn't. I don't you you'll remember, but there was a round about that time when I was coming into the industry, the way people would talk about a movie often would be, what did it do in the first weekend? It doesn't seem to be something that is talked about as much anymore. But like, how much money a movie made in its first weekend was a was a talking point and was crucial. And we came out to came out against rush hour three and.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  And and I remember they didn't wanna put, someone told me they didn't wanna put the word fairy tale in the tagline. And when the numbers came in later, they had they had completely alienated their all their audience because they had marketed it so aggressively towards making people, making sure people knew it wasn't a just a kids film.

• 21:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  But then no kids went to see it.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, rude awakening and ran out of money and was, you know, don't, didn't have a degree or wasn't sure, you know, was struggling to think what I'm gonna do that outside of acting, you know.

• 22:02Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, were you seriously contemplating like?

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Well, I had to get a job. Yeah, I had to get a job. I had to wait tables or something, you know. And.

• 22:10Josh Horowitz?

  So wait, post Stardust, you waited?

• 22:12Speaker 02

  No, I did. I I didn't get to that point, but I was, I left LA because I left LA specifically because I wasn't legally allowed to do that in Los Angeles because my visa wouldn't allow me to.

• 22:23Josh Horowitz?

  I see.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  So if I was going to wait tables or go back, go back to a job that I'd had in the past. I'd been a photographer's assistant and I'd and I'd worked in restaurants and stuff. I thought, well, I have to, it has to be in England where I'm legally allowed to do that. And so went back to Los Angeles, went back to London and it was around about that time that my agents called me and said, look, there's a very, potentially a very small part in Boardwalk Empire. They're not gonna guarantee any episodes. They're, you know, there's, the character appears in three episodes right now. And, you know, without, at that point, it would not have been a job I was, I'd be looking to kind of do without any sort of form of guarantee.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  I think I got paid less for that first season than I did for my first ever acting job on screen.

• 23:16Josh Horowitz?

  So it teaches you, I mean, humility and like, oh, my gosh, like this, you know, it can seem like you have the world at your fingertips.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And overnight it just does not, yeah.

• 23:25Josh Horowitz?

  But but that must have rejuvenated some confidence, like being on that set with that company of actors, you're on Boardwalk Empire, like.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Well, the thing, the thing that we skipped is that after Stardust, when it didn't, when it hadn't quite, when it wasn't working out, I did go back to London and did my first play. And that was with Jamie Lloyd. And that was, that was really, I remember my agent, I was scared to say yes to it, not because I didn't wanna do theater, but because I was worried about being taken out of the film industry for too long. When I still quote unquote had some momentum that I, you know, I hadn't, it hadn't been that long ago since Stardust had come out. And I was worried that if, that, um, you know, that the, all of the opportunities would dry up if I, if I did that. And my, my amazing agent, who I've been with my whole career, Lindy King in, in the UK,

• 24:14Speaker 02

  kind of said, I think what you'll get from being on stage will give you more than you can, you can recognize in terms of, or more than you, that you can foresee in terms of kind of confidence and, and knowing what it is to be an actor and the love of the craft. And that was really the case. It really reminded me of the feeling that I had at school when I acted and thought, God, I'd love to keep doing this. So that was, that was a huge, um, a huge moment in my career and all down to my agent, you know, that.

• 24:43Josh Horowitz?

  So, so jumping forward a bit then, Daredevil comes around.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:48Josh Horowitz?

  The decision for Daredevil. Had you ever been up for superhero stuff prior? Had you ever had to do kind of the spandex audition thing?

• 24:56Speaker 02

  I, no, I don't think so. Or certainly not, I'd never gotten long enough into the process where I'd been asked to put on the spandex. But, um, no, I don't think so. But I, you know, I remember I was doing a play, I was doing The Prince of Hamburg at the Dunbar Warehouse and Andrew came to see it. And he told me that night he'd just been cast as Spider-Man. So I remember being like, oh, wow. That's a, that's exciting.

• 25:20Josh Horowitz?

  But you weren't, you weren't a comic book guy.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  And then Henry Cavill was in Stardust with me.

• 25:24Josh Horowitz?

  Of course he was.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  And then suddenly he was Superman.

• 25:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. All around you.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  And I was like, wait for me, guys.

• 25:29Josh Horowitz?

  Where's mine?

• 25:32Josh Horowitz?

  The right one came around.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:33Josh Horowitz?

  And so by the time you get into that audition room, did you know, like in your bones, like in your heart of hearts, like this, this is one I can connect with, this is, this is the right one for me? Like, what do you remember early on in that process?

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Um, so I was doing a pilot for CBS and I...

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Had, I, we were, I was not, I was not feeling great about it. We had started shooting and it was a lovely cast and crew, but I just didn't, I didn't feel like it was, it had been the right decision to, to, to do this show and it wasn't what I really wanted to do and I wasn't enjoying how some of the decision making was, was taking place, which I understand and appreciate, but it's a kind of a network television decision making process and it wasn't what I, you know, had been looking to do. Anyway, I hate auditioning and so if I can, if I can find an excuse to not audition for something, I will make that excuse. So if I have a job, I will not audition. I'd be like, I'm not available because I've got this job, I, you know. And my agent's always like, just go to audition, you never know.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  But because I was having a bad time on this job and we, I remember we were shooting in the Standard Hotel and it was an all-nighter and I decided, this audition came through and I just decided to read the lines with my accent coach on the job and it was for Daredevil and it said it was Daredevil and the story that a lot of people know, which is that it didn't mention in the body of the email that he was blind. So, so, so and my, my accent coach said to me, oh, I, I know this character, I think he's, I think he's blind. I'm like, mm, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure they would mention that.

• 27:15Josh Horowitz?

  I think I'd know.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  Why don't you just sit over there? So I went to the audition and did, you know, the feedback came back, which I did a good job, but please could I do, could I prepare it and be visually impaired for the, the recall? Um, I, it wasn't until I was allowed to go, I was then back in London, back home in London and I was asked, they were, they told me I was going to screen test. Um, and I was allowed to go to the Disney offices in London and read the first two scripts and it was at that point that I, I sat in a room, I was sat with a gentleman who watched me read them and, um, it was when I left that room, I was like, oh no, these are really good. This is really good.

• 27:56Josh Horowitz?

  That's the worst feeling, now you're invested.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:59Josh Horowitz?

  Who told you you got the part at the time? Was it like, I know Drew Goddard was involved early on? Like, who was the one that?

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Jeff Loeb. Yeah, Jeff Loeb called me. I do remember that I then, before the screen test, I was, I was dating an actress and she was doing a job in Shreveport, Louisiana. So I had gone out to visit her. And while I was there, they wanted to, before the screen test, they wanted to zoom, they wanted to FaceTime with me. So I got on this FaceTime with Jeff and Kareem, a couple of the bosses at Marvel. And they had, you know, like before they do it, when you do a TV show or a film and you show up to the makeup trailer or to the costume department, they've got pictures of all the actors on, you know, on the walls. And when I was sitting in the audition, my picture was already on the wall.

• 28:44Josh Horowitz?

  Good, okay.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. But then afterwards, my girlfriend, as I said, yeah, but they just exchanged that when they get on with the next part.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  But I, but it was an indication that they had kind of, and then I later found out that, that, um, Joe Cusada, who's an amazing comic book artist at Marvel and has done stuff for DC as well, but, he had been watching Booboo Empire. And he had seen me kill a man in a bathroom.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  And, and he, he had actually spoken to Jeff and said, he, this, this, he thought I was Irish because I played, he was like, this Irish kid could be really good.

• 29:19Josh Horowitz?

  That's amazing. Had you seen or have you seen Ben Affleck's Daredevil?

• 29:23Speaker 02

  I like it.

• 29:24Josh Horowitz?

  I'm not saying.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  I like him. I'm a massive, I'm a massive Ben Affleck fan.

• 29:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  And I think he's awesome and tremendous. The, the movie's.

• 29:37Josh Horowitz?

  Your, your voice cracked there. What just happened?

• 29:40Speaker 02

  I think, I think.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  I, I think what happened with that movie is two things. CGI was invented and the next day they were like, let's make a movie with it.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  So they're a little premature with the CGI.

• 29:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  And also, they tried to get the entire Daredevil anthology into a two-hour movie.

• 30:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right. I mean, anytime you cast Colin Farrell as Bullseye, come on.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  There's moments in it that are iconic, and I love Ben Affleck. I did have a thing where I went to one of these Comic Cons where you do signing, and someone came up to me and was like, asked me to sign the Ben Affleck costume. So I was like, huh, this is kind of funny. So I signed it, and then like, five minutes later, someone else did it, and I was like, oh, you guys must have been in it, funny. So I signed it. And then it happened again and again. And then I realized the show had incorrectly put my photograph at the front of, in my line. And so people have signed Ben Affleck's photograph by me, and they...

• 30:43Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, it's a keepsake.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 30:46Josh Horowitz?

  I'm rooting for in Secret Wars, you and Affleck, the two Daredevils to take off.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  It'd be so cool.

• 30:50Josh Horowitz?

  Come on!

• 30:52Speaker 02

  It's so cool.

• 30:56Josh Horowitz?

  More Happy, Sad and Fused coming up.

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• 32:05Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, the irony is, it's kind of fascinating. I haven't done the math, but you've probably played this character more than virtually any other MCU actor.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Close to 80 hours.

• 32:14Josh Horowitz?

  It's kind of amazing. What an opportunity. I mean, did you have like, kind of like, a guiding principle that's kind of staged true to you through all these different incarnations over the years? Like, what's been kind of like your north star for Matt Murdoch Daredevil?

• 32:27Speaker 02

  What a great question.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  It was definitely got to be something to do with leaning, it was always something to do with leaning into the shortcomings. Lean into, if you're playing a superhero, lean into, what I think what makes a superhero superhero is not that they don't have the same challenges,

• 32:55Speaker 02

  specifically emotional challenges that other people do. It's just that they find a way to overcome them. So just lean into the things that you wouldn't necessarily identify with a superhero. So I really enjoy it with, and Matt Murdoch's a great, it's a great opportunity with Matt Murdoch for those things. But just lean into kind of when he's, when he isn't his best self. When he loses his temper unnecessarily, when he goes too far.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  When he loses, when he has a crisis of faith or something like that. Just lean into that stuff because I think that's what makes a superhero interesting is that they then, they find a way to bring themselves back from the brink, as it were.

• 33:35Josh Horowitz?

  So, I mean, when the Netflix show ends, had you kind of reconciled that I had my run? If that's it, that's it?

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%, yeah. Like, we ended up, episode, season three was a hit. We were supposed to go and do season four. They pitched me the season. We were, you know, a couple of months out. I turned down a couple of jobs, including a Matthew Vaughn job. And then suddenly the plug was pulled. But I was, I'm pretty, I've always been pretty practical minded in those situations. Like, I'm always like, yeah, I'd rather do that than, than run it into the ground and, and, and it end on a bad note, kind of thing, so.

• 34:11Josh Horowitz?

  So when the call comes, was it a shock?

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, and meanwhile Vincent didn't, was, we and Vincent would speak regularly and he'd be like, no, they're definitely going to come back. And I, and I would get off the phone and say to my wife, guy's delusional, like.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Like, he's like, he's gonna be in his eighties and he's gonna be still talking. Like, someone's gotta say to him, dude, let it go. It's, oh, you know, but.

• 34:35Josh Horowitz?

  Was he just manifesting?

• 34:36Speaker 02

  He was, well, he was right.

• 34:38Josh Horowitz?

  He was, obviously.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  He was right. He was like, there's no way the show, as popular as it was, as successful as it was, there's no way they're not gonna do something with us. And I, and I a hundred percent believed it was done and dusted. Partly because I had done Betrayal with Tom, twenty nineteen. The show was cancelled twenty eighteen. Twenty nineteen, we did Betrayal. Kevin Feige comes to see the play, cause he's working with Tom and knows Tom very well. I didn't have a relationship with Kevin, cause he wasn't involved in the Netflix show. And when I went to go and say hello to him afterwards, he didn't mention it. And I, to the point where I thought, maybe he doesn't even know, um, I was so.

• 35:15Josh Horowitz?

  It's Kevin Feige.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  I thought it was the police.

• 35:18Josh Horowitz?

  The Marvel police are here.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I, I, I thought, I literally said to my wife, like, I don't think he realized it was me. What I later found out when he did call me was that legally, he wasn't allowed to speak to me about it.

• 35:29Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Cause there was a two-year embargo. Yeah. So I got a phone call, June tenth, twenty twenty. And I, and from Kevin Feige. And I thought it was a prank. Um, and, uh, yeah, and he was like, let's, um, you know, we've got some ideas. Are you, are you interested?

• 35:46Josh Horowitz?

  Did you have any concerns at that point, that, you know, you dilute by putting it on the Disney platform? That it's not gonna be, Daredevil is so part and parcel gritty and raw and extreme.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Well, remember, it was June, June tenth, twenty twenty.

• 36:01Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  So everyone was thinking, will I ever have a job ever again?

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Will I ever? So I was, at that point, I was not.

• 36:08Josh Horowitz?

  Like, told.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Yes, my creative concerns were not present. I was like, I'm there, where, where?

• 36:15Josh Horowitz?

  Next week?

• 36:16Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 36:17Josh Horowitz?

  But I have had this conversation, like, this is public record, you kind of even alluded to it. Um, when I talked to Vincent D'Onofrio, like, that first season of, of Born Again, it was a tough one for you guys.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:26Josh Horowitz?

  There was a major creative.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:28Josh Horowitz?

  Pivot that you guys had. And, and Vincent told me, like, you guys were kind of brother in arms. Like, you were in lockstep. Like, we need to tell Kevin and everybody, like. We're, you know, we need to make some changes.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were, I think we weren't, it's, it's, it's an odd one to talk about, and I don't know what was going on, you know, behind the scenes. It was, there was an admirable effort to, I think one of the things that people had discovered with, when streaming came along, everyone thought that the old model, the network model of a kind of like a long-running procedural-type show, everyone thought when streaming came along, that's gonna die a death. They're dinosaurs, they're not gonna, they're not gonna last. And the truth is, it's not the case. People love those shows, they're incredibly addictive, they're really easy to watch, they're very, very well-written. It's very difficult to write a well-written procedural.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  And, and Kevin has actually since told me that, that they, they were looking at that model and saying, "We, we would like to have that kind of show on a, on a streaming platform, on Disney+." And so they were looking like, how, that you can see, what they, thinking, "What, what character do we have we can do that with?" Well, we have a lawyer who's also already popular.

• 37:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  And it, and it made a lot of sense. I think, once we got into production, it very quickly became apparent that the lessons we'd learned from the band, from the, from the movie, that we had got right in the show, we were now almost unlearning a little bit. And that the character really does work best in a serialized platform, but also when it's darker and grittier and le, and there's less tongue-in-cheeks gritty, uh, like levity.

• 38:15Josh Horowitz?

  And, and also, correct me if I'm wrong, also connecting to the ensemble, the characters from the past of, of Foggy and Karen and honoring those relationships.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. So, and, and I always must say, huge credit to Marvel and those guys, because it takes a huge amount of courage and money.

• 38:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  To, to make a U-turn like that.

• 38:36Josh Horowitz?

  A major one, yeah.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. So. We're indebted to them, and they, they really did listen to Vincent and I, you know.

• 38:41Josh Horowitz?

  So, I, I assume most people have seen, up until this point, as, as we tape this, one more episode to go in the season. It's been a great season.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  (applause)

• 38:53Josh Horowitz?

  Does this feel like, I don't know, expect you to rank the seasons or episodes, but does this feel like a true expression of the character that you would kind of always hope for in this season? What are you proud of that you've executed this season in Born Again?

• 39:05Speaker 02

  There's a sweet spot. There's always been for me a sweet spot with this character and this show where it's sophisticated, it's honest, it's as truthful as you can get for a superhero, but it has like a peppering of the Marvel magic, just a peppering of it. And that garnish, when you get the right amount of it, is a great sweet spot. And there's been moments throughout this, you know, the Netflix show and also other shows that we popped up in, there's been moments where I've thought, oh, we've really found it here, this little spot.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  I remember in season two of the Netflix show, around about the trial of Frank Castle and then Elektra shows up for the first time.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  You know, my memory of it is we're dealing with some very serious themes, we're talking about like some, having uncomfortable conversations, you know, in a superhero show, but uncomfortable conversations about gun control and things like that. And then, but then, but we've just got this Marvel magic on it. And I think this season that we've done, Dario has managed to maintain, especially when we get to the end, the last few episodes, has been able to maintain whatever that little pocket is, that tone. Dario, Dario Scardapena, our amazing writer, showrunner, he's managed to be as consistent with that than anyone else in this season.

• 40:35Josh Horowitz?

  Obviously, from the start, the Netflix show through this season, the physicality, the fight scenes are epic. I mean, you must take a lot of pride in what you guys and the whole team have been able to execute. The famous oners, which have now kind of become a signature in the show. And, I mean, you didn't have this kind of background prior to Daredevil. You weren't like necessarily action hero like-

• 40:57Speaker 02

  At all, no.

• 40:58Josh Horowitz?

  Right?

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:59Josh Horowitz?

  So, I mean, is there one that stands out? There's, we could cite six different like oners, iconic scenes from the show. What's the one that you look at and say like, I nailed it, we nailed it? What do you take the most pride in from an action perspective?

• 41:11Speaker 02

  So, from a personal point of view, the prison fight in season three.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Mainly because I was, I had to and was able to do so much of it. And it's so long.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  I do, and also, the filming of that was such an event. So, production, it's the only time in my career this ever happened. Production gave us a day off filming, just to rehearse. Which, when you try and explain that to the money men, the financiers, that's like, you don't take a day off to rehearse. But, in order to get that right, we took a day off to rehearse. Everyone showed up at the prison, including the camera team and the sound department, everyone. And we rehearsed for an entire day. And then we came back the next day, and the plan was to shoot it. It's eleven and a half pages, so it's eleven and a half minutes. And, and on like, the second or third take, it went really well. And everyone was like, huh.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  And, we kind of watched, we hadn't had lunch yet. And we kind of watched it, and there was a couple of moments that were not perfect, but, you know, you could get away with it. And so, everyone was like, are we going home?

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Anyway, the decision was made that we can do better. And every time you go back for another take of any action sequence, you have to think about the risk of injury. It's like, people get hurt. We're pushing our luck, yeah. Especially as you get tired, or tired, and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, we decided to do it again. We're gonna go to lunch, and we're gonna come back, and we're gonna get an even better take. So, we come back from lunch, and, and then it's just not happening. It's not happening. But, you can't quit now, because you've told the story that there's a better version out there. And we keep going, we keep going. Anyway.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  A couple of things happened where, when you get to about, oh no, the take is thirteen minutes. When we get eleven minutes in, there's a dialogue scene. But it's still within the wanna, right? And it's with a Russian guy who's in prison. And, he'd been amazing, all day, every day. Before that happens, I'm grabbed by a huge guy. And he, his choreography is to get me in the room. There's no specific choreography. So, I've said to him, "I'm gonna do everything I can to stop you getting me in the room, so you're going to have to get me in the room. It's the only way it's gonna look real." Right. What I didn't tell him is, on the last take, I had found a way to hide some mouth blood in a bottle. I'd found a way to hide it in one of the cells.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  So, when it was over my shoulder, I could grab it, put it in my mouth, and save it. But I didn't tell that guy that, and I didn't tell the actor. So, we then start doing this take, and it's immediately you can tell, this is it. It's going, everything's working perfectly, it's so exciting, it's so thrilling. We get, you know, we've passed all the tricky stuff, we're probably seven or eight, nine minutes in. We get to the point, the guy grabs me, I'm fighting like hell. He gets me to the room, he shoves me against the wall, and I spit the blood out, that he doesn't know is there.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  So, all I hear, so the camera's on my face as I've been, as I'm against the wall like this. And then it very slowly pans, you hear his first line, and then it's very slowly pans to him, right? And his first line is, "Why are you here, you know, who are you and what do you want?", or something like that. But as he throws against the wall, all I hear is, "Oh shit."

• 44:42Speaker 02

  And then, the camera starts to pan towards him, and he goes, "Oh, what's my line, what's my line?" Like that, and then luckily, just before it gets there, he goes, "Who are you and what do you want?"

• 44:56Speaker 02

  So, he saved the day, yeah, yeah.

• 44:58Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 45:03Josh Horowitz?

  I do love that he's like also one of the only superheroes that actually like, you feel the effort. Like you like hear the grunts and the screams through the fights. That's gotta be like, you can kind of like, be real about it too, because it takes a real effort from you, I'm sure.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  You know, and lean into the exhaustion, you know, yeah.

• 45:21Josh Horowitz?

  So, there's a lot of good news. Good news is that, again, as we tape this, we have one more big episode to conclude season two of Born Again. You're also knee-deep in shooting the third season.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:36Josh Horowitz?

  Lot of photos out there already, a lot of things we can assume. It seems like the Defenders gang might be re-teaming.

• 45:47Josh Horowitz?

  Sorry?

• 45:48Speaker 02

  I have no idea.

• 45:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, oh yeah, I'm sorry.

• 45:51Josh Horowitz?

  You don't even remember who the Defenders are? That's alarming.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 45:54Josh Horowitz?

  What can you say about season three? I know I don't expect you to spill it all, but what are you excited for folks to experience from the next one?

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Well, at least I start off with a beard.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Um, god, yeah, nothing. I don't know. I can't say anything.

• 46:11Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  I'm always terrified of that question.

• 46:14Josh Horowitz?

  What do you feel, I mean, in terms of just a big picture, like, can you imagine playing Matt Murdoch Daredevil in five years? In 10 years? I mean, you've already put it in a long run. Like, is there enough meat on the bone still with this character for you?

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Charles Sewell, who's a wonderful comic book writer, just released last year, I think, a new Daredevil run. I think it's called A Cold, oh, god, I forget. I think it's called A Cold Day in Hell, in which Matt Murdoch, I think, is in his late 60s, 70s.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  So I, and Charles sent me, sent it to me, and I read it, and I was like, I mean, it's, and it's so, it's wonderful, it's so beautiful, but I was like, "Well, there you go."

• 46:58Speaker 02

  "That buys me another 20 years."

• 47:01Josh Horowitz?

  And we did kind of like joke about it earlier. Obviously, it does seem, obviously, being part of the MCU now, and we've gone to see you with Peter Parker, and She-Hulk, etc., and now with Secret Wars and Doomsday, it does feel like there's opportunity. I mean, again, I don't expect you to spill anything, but like, the idea of getting to interact with more and more characters in this universe must be really thrilling.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Yes, I mean, I mean, yes. Marvel have kind of been clear with me, for now at least, that I'm focusing on the show.

• 47:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  That's, that's our focus. That really is the truth.

• 47:34Josh Horowitz?

  What does Vincent say? Because he knows the future.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. Exactly, yeah, yeah, I should go to him. Yeah, and, you know, it's one of the things that, obviously, is, the fans of the MCU love it when the characters kind of clash. So we'll see. But right now, I'm certainly focused on our show.

• 47:55Josh Horowitz?

  Again, having played this character so much, like, you, you must act as like his greatest advocate. Like, do you feel like you sometimes like have that role on set? And I would imagine as the years go by, having more creative input, like, you're defending, knowing what you do about the character in the comics, like... My Matt Murdoch, my Daredevil would or wouldn't do this. Do you find yourself in that position?

• 48:16Speaker 02

  I very rarely find that I'm put in that position. Like, the process that we go through, I mean, and the writers and the creators are so strong. The material we're getting is so good. But I will, I mean, on the way over here, I was reading two scripts. And I messaged Dario as I read them, said, "These are great. It was so exciting." "This scene is gonna be iconic, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is." And then I'll find time to get on the phone with him and there'll be cadences that I don't, I'm just not sure that Matt Murdoch quite speaks in that rhythm. But we're talking about minor details, you know.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  And, but those are the details, those little nuances, bizarrely, as minor as they can seem to me, are really important. And I know they are for Vincent as well. You know, I love it when we come up with little ideas, Matt Murdoch things, that have come from us because we've embodied the characters for so long. A lot of the stuff actually is not so much dialogue, it's actually like, and they'll write a scene and I'll have an idea about that scene. I'll give you an example. In the end of the episode eight of Born Again, season one,

• 49:33Speaker 02

  right before, when Frank Castle is in my apartment. So I show up back at my apartment and he's already there. And the way it was written was, I walk in and I say, and he says something to me. And I walk in, he speaks to me, right? And on the day, I said to them, "Look, I think it's fun. I know he's in my apartment from two or three blocks away." And he knows that I know he's in my apartment from two or three blocks away. So I said, "Why don't, because we know that as the characters, why don't we delay the gratification for the audience?

• 50:14Speaker 02

  So why don't you have me walk into an empty apartment, seemingly, sit down and then seemingly say to no one, what, you know, "Couldn't you have knocked?" or whatever the line is, I don't remember what it is, and then reveal him? And that's a very Matt Murdoch thing that wasn't on the page, but it was like an idea that came because we know the characters as well.

• 50:31Josh Horowitz?

  Big picture speaking, like, where are your ambitions outside of Daredevil keeps you quite busy? It's a big time commitment, but like... Theater, film, TV, a type of role, like what are you chasing at this point outside of the Marvel?

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Honestly, fatherhood.

• 50:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Like is is like as much time as possible with with my kiddos. And this job bizarrely is actually wonderful for that because although I'm away during the week a lot, it really does give me the freedom to to not work for the second half of the year. If I don't want to or don't, you know, if I if it's not something that's that I can figure out around my family. So that I'm, you know, they've got young children, I'm acutely aware. Did you ever see that interview or that clip with um with um? I've told you this behind the stage, I'm terrible with I'm terrible with names. With Better Call Saul.

• 51:26Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, Bob Odenkirk.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Bob Odenkirk, yes. Did you see, have you ever seen this clip where he did it, he did a podcast and and they asked him, who do you envy? And his answer is anyone with young children still in the house.

• 51:36Josh Horowitz?

  I did hear that, yes, yes.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  And.

• 51:38Josh Horowitz?

  Happiest time in his life.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I I'm I'm lucky in that I'm I'm not missing it. I'm acutely aware of how wonderful it is. Um, and it just makes me want to not miss a single second of it, you know? It's pretty cool, I also said this backstage, it's pretty cool having a six year old boy who's obsessed with superheroes and has just discovered that his dad is one.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  That's pretty cool. I I was actually saying like, I I was having a conversation.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  I was having a conversation in the car with my children this morning on the way to soccer, a soccer game. And they were asking me about when I'm, when I'm like, when is the job gonna end, when I'm gonna be home, whatever they were asking. And they said, you know, when, when, you know, and are you gonna do Dad Ever Again next year? I can't remember what the conversation was, but I eventually ended up saying, look, you know, at some point it will come to an end. You know, I won't always be this character, I'll be. And my son went, what?

• 52:36Speaker 02

  He was absolutely horrified.

• 52:38Josh Horowitz?

  Stop the car, Dad, we have to talk about this.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  And then the next he goes, but what am I gonna tell Alex?

• 52:47Speaker 02

  So, uh, yeah, so that's the first thing, but outside of that, um, outside of that, um, I'd love to do some more theatre.

• 52:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Um, I'd love to do some more theatre here. Um, and, uh, you know, I'd love to kind of, you know, the early part of my career was, you know, was movies and then transitioned into television. Um, I've, I've been recently doing, in my off season, I've been doing a few films here and there and I'd be, uh, be, uh, it'd be great to transition back into that a little bit, I think.

• 53:18Josh Horowitz?

  Excellent, excellent. Well, keep doing Daredevil, don't disappoint Alex.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  No, sure, exactly, yeah, yeah.

• 53:24Josh Horowitz?

  Um, we end Happy Second Views with the profoundly random questions. You ready for this, Charlie?

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:28Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, here we go.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  You wrote them.

• 53:30Josh Horowitz?

  Never mind. Blame me. Dogs or cats?

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Dogs.

• 53:35Josh Horowitz?

  Are you a current dog owner?

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 53:36Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we have, we have lots of.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  I've always been a dog, a dog guy.

• 53:40Josh Horowitz?

  Multiple, certain kinds, certain breed, what's your?

• 53:43Speaker 02

  Um, all different breeds.

• 53:45Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  Um, the, we currently have a border terrier, um, and, uh, I, I always wanted one and I never, and we never had one until this time, so, yeah.

• 53:54Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, what do you collect, if anything?

• 54:00Speaker 02

  What do I collect? Well, I used to collect DVDs.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  I used to, well, it started with VHS and then DVDs. I still have them.

• 54:08Josh Horowitz?

  The actual collection is somewhere?

• 54:10Speaker 02

  I, I made a, when I lived in a small London apartment, I made a terrible decision of buying, of removing them from the cases.

• 54:19Josh Horowitz?

  I did the same thing.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  They're in sleeves, yeah.

• 54:21Josh Horowitz?

  I know, I know.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  And I, and it's, cause funny, cause we were, we were talking about the, when I did the, um, the Kevin McCarthy podcast.

• 54:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  And he said to me, do you still watch them? And, and I said, yes, but it does slightly depend on how much it is to rent the movie. Because if it's three ninety-nine, I gotta go.

• 54:41Josh Horowitz?

  I'm with you, I've been there.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  So, uh, but I do have, like, so DVDs, um, I don't think it's something else.

• 54:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  No.

• 54:48Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have a favorite video game of all time?

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not a video game guy either.

• 54:53Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  But it would be Donkey Kong.

• 54:57Josh Horowitz?

  Classic. Uh, the Dakota Johnson memorial question, she asked me this, I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 55:06Speaker 02

  One be in my butt is funnier. Yeah. What about, can I, wait, can I ask you these as well?

• 55:11Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, I'm happy to. I, I, I'm a one be in the butt kinda guy.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:16Josh Horowitz?

  I think we're at that stage in the relationship. Movie posters, yeah, I'm on brand, you know.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:22Josh Horowitz?

  What do you think? Uh, what's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a plant.

• 55:30Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  I don't know what plant.

• 55:33Josh Horowitz?

  Interesting.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  I, yeah.

• 55:35Josh Horowitz?

  Huh, how'd that happen? Just, you like the plant?

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then I re, I, I, I do, I like, I just wanted something different and it was a, I don't know how I got there.

• 55:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  I don't quite know how I got there.

• 55:46Josh Horowitz?

  Family's overrated, just, I'm gonna do a plant.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, but it's like, it's just a leaf. It's a leafy plant, it's weird.

• 55:53Josh Horowitz?

  It's fun.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  I don't know how I got there. And I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure I know how to change it.

• 55:59Josh Horowitz?

  There's the real answer, yeah. Uh, who's the last actor you were mistaken for?

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Oh, um...

• 56:09Speaker 02

  I think Rob Pattinson, I think that's happened a couple of times. Yeah.

• 56:13Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, another brooding superhero, another very angry.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  It has happened, I'll tell you who it used to happen a lot with. Um, Rupert Friend.

• 56:20Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it happened a couple of times, Rupert Friend.

• 56:22Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. If you could trade places, if you could be Batman instead of Daredevil, would you take that deal?

• 56:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  No, Batman's cool.

• 56:31Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, two of the coolest.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Batman's cool, but...

• 56:33Josh Horowitz?

  But?

• 56:34Speaker 02

  But, got a cloak.

• 56:38Josh Horowitz?

  Damn cape, yeah.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  And also, he can't move his neck, what's that about?

• 56:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, they haven't figured that out yet.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Well, none of them, they can't figure out how to move the neck.

• 56:48Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 56:53Speaker 02

  The worst note? Well, it's not a director, but, but I did get told in an audition once, in an audition, it said in the script, he weeps or something. And in the, the casting, like, at that point where he's supposed to cry, it was very hard to cry, and the guys there just went...

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Like it's a button you could press or something. Yeah.

• 57:21Josh Horowitz?

  And in the spirit of Happy Second Fuse, who's an actor you see on screen that always makes you happy, you're in a better mood as soon as you see them?

• 57:28Speaker 02

  On screen?

• 57:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Jim Carrey.

• 57:35Josh Horowitz?

  A movie that makes you sad.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  Can you answer that one as well?

• 57:37Josh Horowitz?

  So many. I mean, we were talking backstage, sad. No, we lost Gene Hackman. I mean, he's my all-time favorite, maybe.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:45Josh Horowitz?

  Movie that makes you sad?

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Sports movies. There's the movies that, yeah, like, I will cry.

• 57:52Josh Horowitz?

  Rudy, or a...

• 57:53Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. And I'm not even an American football guy, you know, what you guys call football. I'm not an American football guy, but yeah, any sports movie, you name it, like Rocky, you know, Rudy, Any Given Sunday, you know, just you name it. Sports movies get me every single time.

• 58:10Josh Horowitz?

  You asked Pacino to give the speech, the locker room speech, when you worked with him?

• 58:13Speaker 02

  It's so good, isn't it?

• 58:14Josh Horowitz?

  It's so good.

• 58:16Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, a food that makes you confused, Charlie. You don't understand it. Why do people eat this?

• 58:23Speaker 02

  Oh, um, what's that thing, what's the thing, is it like, in sushi, I love sushi.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  What? No, I like wasabi. Is it uni?

• 58:36Josh Horowitz?

  Uni? Someone else just told me uni recently. This came up.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. What is that?

• 58:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  What is that?

• 58:43Josh Horowitz?

  Well, sea urchins, technically.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  And also, people like real, like, foodies are like, well, you don't really love food if you don't eat, you know.

• 58:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 58:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 58:51Speaker 02

  It tastes so wrong.

• 58:53Josh Horowitz?

  I wish I could remember, yes, literally, like, one of the last guests on this show mentioned uni. There is a hate of uni going around.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  I also, I'm one of those people that if I eat coriander, I taste soap.

• 59:02Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, one of the, yeah.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:03Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I got you. Okay, okay. We'll, we'll get it out of your goodie bag on the way out.

• 59:08Speaker 02

  What's your food one?

• 59:09Josh Horowitz?

  Um, beets, not a beet sky.

• 59:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  I like, I don't mind cooked beets. I don't like...

• 59:14Josh Horowitz?

  Can't do it in any form, I'm sorry.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  Really?

• 59:16Josh Horowitz?

  This is where the friendship ends here tonight. No, I've had a blast getting to know you tonight, Charlie.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Likewise, thank you.

• 59:22Josh Horowitz?

  I've wanted to do this for a long while. Daredevil, Born Again, Disney Plus, one more episode, and another season to come. Check it out. Spread the good word. Everybody, Charlie Cox, everybody.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you. That was so fun. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

• 59:57Speaker 07

  Hey, first time? Love those sneakers.

• 1:00:01Speaker 08

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• 1:00:04Speaker 07

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• 1:00:07Speaker 08

  There's loads on there.

• 1:00:09Speaker 07

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• 1:00:14Speaker 08

  Right?

• 1:00:15Speaker 07

  And you can't get these ones anywhere. Find what you want for less on Depop.

• 1:00:21Speaker 08

  Sneakers. Worn once. Excellent condition.