The 30 Most Intriguing NBA Playoff Guys, With Zach Lowe

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe preview the 2026 NBA playoffs on the final day of the regular season before doing a draft of the most intriguing guys in the playoffs (0:32). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Zach Lowe Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Bundle and Save Book now on Expedia.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

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• 1:08Bill Simmons?

  It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. I am here with Zach Lowe, Sunday night, live on Netflix. I am so glad we waited because I would have bet anything heading into today that Denver was going to be our number four seed, not our number three seed. But no, they beat San Antonio. Anyway, Zach's in Denver because he is doing a live show there tomorrow night. I have a new Rewatchables coming tomorrow. It is a live show we did last week in San Francisco, Basic Instinct. So get ready for that. There's also a new, new Ringer podcast coming, I wanted to mention on Tuesday, that you can follow, subscribe now. It's a narrative podcast called Legata. And if you like Miami Vice in the eighties and drugs and cocaine

• 1:52Bill Simmons?

  and great stories and all kinds of things like that, which I do, get ready for Legata, two episodes coming on Tuesday. All right, Zach Lowe.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02Bill Simmons?

  Do you want to start west or east? Because shit went down today. Things happened.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  As much as I'm tempted to start with what the hell happened with the Orlando Magic today, I think the West has to be the starting point just because of the implications of Denver getting the third seed, the Lakers getting the fourth seed, just wide-ranging matchup implications across the board there.

• 2:22Bill Simmons?

  Okay, so Denver, all we knew from Denver today, they were 11 and a half point underdogs against San Antonio. And all we knew was that Joker had to play like 15 to 20 minutes to be eligible for game 65. Other than that, seemed pretty clear, because they were resting all their dudes, that they were really comfortable getting into that four or five matchup, playing whoever. San Antonio wants to beat Denver, because if that would have moved the Lakers up to three, that sounds great to them. So they're trying hard the whole game. And somehow Denver says, no, no, David Roddy.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Big Body Roddy, baby. Can't stop Big Body Roddy.

• 3:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. No Wemby for San Antonio. So now, I guess, my question to you is, if you're Denver, are you like celebrating right now? Are you happy? I mean, you're celebrating that you got the over. Your over was 53 and a half for the year. Miraculous over. I won. We did terrible on over unders. You won for most, most correct over unders. All of us went to 500. I went five and three on my locks. I'm selling that to my fans this summer. Off year, five and three in the locks. But if you're Denver, are you celebrating? What are you doing?

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I think you're, you're like, you clearly didn't care, right? So if they cared, they could have manipulated it more than they did. And I think, look, you're gonna have to beat these teams sometime. I, you could argue, like, is it better to go Oklahoma City and then San Antonio and hope one of them gets knocked out? Or is it better to go San Antonio than Oklahoma City, the order they're gonna have to go now? You might have to beat both of them either way. Might as well have some fun. Don't tempt the basketball gods by manipulating the standings and pulling shenanigans on our last day of the season. Have some fun. Get in San Antonio's head, maybe. I, I don't mind it. I mean, it's, it's six to one, half dozen of the other. I would have liked the easier first round matchup, but it may not even make a difference in the end. And we'll see how Minnesota looks in the first round, right? Jaden McDaniels just came back and just missed some time.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  They've been just up and down and weird. And, and Denver actually kind of played much better against the Wolves this year than they had in the prior couple of years. I think they were three and one. So I like it. Go for it. Get some W's.

• 4:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, I was trying to think of the weirdest game 82 that actually swung seasons. Cause there was one, I don't remember what year it was with the Duncan Spurs, but they lost a dumb game in the last week or the last day and it swung the seeds and it actually like screwed up the playoffs.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  I believe it was.

• 4:46Bill Simmons?

  And I couldn't remember because I'm old now.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  I believe it was a loss to New Orleans on the last day of the season that set up the Spurs Clippers epic first round series.

• 4:55Bill Simmons?

  And New Orleans, yeah, New Orleans made the playoffs because of it. Yeah, you're right. 2015 then. So that was one. Then the other one was two years ago, San Antonio with Wemby, beat Denver in the last week and that swung the Denver seed a little bit. And then all of a sudden their road was much tougher and it hurt them in the playoffs.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  You know what? Your road's gonna be tough. You want to win, the road's gonna be tough. And you know, I have some Denver thoughts on the road to the, to the finals or whatever that I'm going to share later when we do our draft. I like it. Road's gonna be tough. Don't tempt the basketball gods.

• 5:33Bill Simmons?

  54 wins for Denver. They don't have Gordon half the year. They lose Peyton Watson for a long time. Cam Johnson's not really healthy till the last, I would say, month and a half and they hit their over under by a half win. Feels like around the right thing. And yet I watched a ton of Denver this year. And I really feel like that could have been 60 wins. They had some really dumb losses over the course of, of the year. So Denver, Minnesota now becomes, I think our best first round series, right? That's the best matchup where there's history. I could see an upset. Great players are in the game. Minnesota seems like they're relatively healthy. I think that's number one now.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  I think so. I mean, Knicks Hawks has a lot of fun potential, but it doesn't have the history. You know, this is a rubber match. I think three of the last four years now they'll have met in the playoffs. That's what you want. Like that's where rivalries happen. When you face the same team four out of five years, three out of four years. A lot of the characters haven't changed. There's been some changes, but like a lot of the core guys are still there. It's 1-1, epic seven gamer. The last time they played that Minnesota won on Denver's home floor. It's the Tim Connolly like hovering. Over everything series Rudy Gobert draft day trade like stuff happening and Tim Connolly reacquiring him in in Minnesota. There's just a lot here and yeah, it is. And it's a big series for the Wolves because I think they've banked a lot on, hey,

• 6:58Speaker 01

  we've made the conference finals two years in a row. We play up to our competition. Sometimes we play down to our competition. We get bored. Yeah, wake us up in the playoffs. So now you woke up and you're sixth and this is what you're looking at. Nikola Jokic having his best offensive season ever. Jamal Murray gonna be make second team all NBA, maybe third team. I'd put him on second team. Uh, good luck. That's not what you want. Would that this is your reward for, you know, kind of lollygagging through parts of the regular season.

• 7:26Bill Simmons?

  You have to go Denver, San Antonio, OKC.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  No shot, not happening, not happening.

• 7:34Bill Simmons?

  I don't like my chances as healthy as Minnesota is. So the, the most unhappy team was Minnesota. I'm sorry. They, they go into the day thinking they might be able to play the Lakers in round one with Luca maybe coming back halfway through the series. Instead they have Denver. The happiest team is the Lakers. Lakers now at.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Are they that happy?

• 8:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're probably pretty happy.

• 8:03Bill Simmons?

  They get to play that weird Houston team who loves nothing more than being up eight with four minutes left and then blowing the game. Um, I don't know. I, I think out of all those teams, they, they didn't have a real chance against Minnesota. Didn't have a chance against Denver. Think they have a chance against Houston. They could tread water. Maybe it's two, one after three. Maybe it's two, two. Maybe they're down three, two. Luca comes back like game six, seven, five, somewhere in there. Um, you know, there'll be a game where the Lakers shoot 55 free throws or something crazy.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Love it. You're planting the seeds already. You wasted no time. Five minutes into the pod.

• 8:41Bill Simmons?

  You know, there's going to be a game that Houston chokes away a 12-point lead with five minutes left and the people that haven't watched, been watching them all year are like, what's happening? Why is KD dribbling the ball up against the press? What is this team doing? I don't know. I'm prepared for this to go seven.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  That's the game that the body language doctor is going to write a 10,000-word column analyzing what happened to the Rockets. Shouldn't the Rockets, couldn't you argue the Rockets are the happiest team because they get the Lakers without Luca and without Reeves? Maybe Luca comes back. I don't know. I'll believe it when I see it. We don't know when he's going back. Could you argue that the Rockets who have won nine out of 10 and are playing kind of well, that they're actually the big winner or that Oklahoma City is the big winner because Denver and San Antonio kind of slotted where they should and they'll have an easier second round? Like, I think Houston and Oklahoma City have cases too.

• 9:28Bill Simmons?

  So Rockets Lakers, both of them ecstatic to be playing each other. Nobody can be offended because they're equally as excited to have the other team in a round one series. The other thing that got decided in the West, Portland locked down the eight seed, which means we have Portland, Phoenix. It was an almost hilarious game 82. The Kings, they're like a mongoose. I don't, you watch Instagram videos of a mongoose just taking down a snake and you're like, how did that happen?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Is that something that, is that something you're doing regularly, watching mongoose videos?

• 10:04Bill Simmons?

  I got it in my algorithm for a second. I had to delete it. What were they, eight and eight in their last 16 heading into today or something?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  This is why you can't fire Doug Christie. You gotta keep him. He could be, this could be the next, you know, pick an all-time great coach. We could be sitting here 20 years from now, Doug Christie just won his 600th game as head coach. You can't fire him. How could, how could you?

• 10:25Bill Simmons?

  I gotta say, the young guys are looking better.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  When they remember, Doug Christie, Doug Christie like a month ago was like, who is that guy with like the ponytail, the little guy? Oh, we picked him in the first round? Maybe we should try to play him.

• 10:41Bill Simmons?

  Should I play him? Yeah. I don't know. I was thinking of nicknames for them. Whether they're the Sacramento Drunk Kings, because they're just drunk at all times. You have no idea what to expect. They're the drunk guy at one in the morning. Anything's possible. They go like the game 82 today. It's like, I don't know, they could beat Portland. Well, why would they beat Portland? Because they're the Kings. How can you figure out anything they're doing? I don't know if they're drunk, drunk Romeno or the Sacramento Drunk Kings, whatever they are. But they've just had three bears in them at all times.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  I think it's, it's, it's just a lot all the time. It's just, you know, like we've already made great fun of the intentional foul on Seth Curry. And just, you know, it's bad times when your defense in the court of tanking law is your own incompetence. That that's the only, your honor, no, we're just that dumb.

• 11:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we just misread the situation and we're stupid. They have a guy, Dylan Cardwell.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Love that guy.

• 11:42Bill Simmons?

  Feisty backup center who I have in my head called him Dwayne Coswell 130 times. And it's just too much for me. And I think I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna say that he's Dwayne Coswell. So anyway, Portland ends up holding off Sacramento. And now we have a really good Blazers Suns game in the seven, eight matchup. And I have not looked on FanDuel yet to see what the line is. But I'm going to guess that that line is around like the Suns being barely favored. Would you agree with that? Like Suns like minus two?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  I'm not a betting guy like you are, but I was going to throw out Suns minus four and a half or something like that. I think it's going to be a really fun game.

• 12:26Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to find out right now.

• 12:32Bill Simmons?

  I don't, I don't see a line yet.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  It might be too soon, might be too early.

• 12:38Bill Simmons?

  Too soon. We'll go back. FanDuel not ready for us yet. Maybe they're still trying to figure out what happened in that weird Sacramento game. I'm bummed if I'm Phoenix. I would have much rather played the Clippers. I just don't think the Clippers have enough size and, and I think. I think everybody's excited to play the Clippers right now. Like if I'm Golden State, which is going to be Wednesday night, I'm so excited. Can't wait to go. Might be Steph Curry's last meaningful playoff moment for all we know. Who knows? We have no idea if the Warriors will ever be good again.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  This is not a meaningful playoff moment. I'm sorry. I know it involves Steph Curry and Kawhi Leonard and Draymond Green and a bunch of big names. Didn't you? We could not call the nine, 10 game a meaningful playoff moment. I'm banning you from doing that.

• 13:24Bill Simmons?

  Counter.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  No counter. I don't accept your counter.

• 13:27Bill Simmons?

  Counter. They win the nine, 10. They win the eight, nine. And now they're playing OKC. The team that gave us the first great Steph Curry arrival moment, the double bang, when it became clear that this was somebody who had a chance to be a generational guy. And now we circle all the way back. They took Kevin Durant from them. They're going to be, you know, prohibitive favorites. They have probably no chance of beating OKC. But OKC, Golden State, I would watch every game, every minute and really enjoy it. And who knows with Steph Curry?

• 14:02Bill Simmons?

  Okay, we talk ourselves into a who knows with Steph Curry by an hour before that series. By the way, they'll probably get swept.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I feel like that's a nice, that's like a nice pregame intro for whatever network has that game. And then eight minutes in, we've forgotten about the pregame intro and it's 26 to eight, Oklahoma City in game one.

• 14:22Bill Simmons?

  Lou Dorn is just clubbing Steph Curry.

• 14:26Bill Simmons?

  Portland though, Legs and I talked a surprising amount of them on Thursday. They, now that Charlotte is no longer allowed as a guilty league pass team because they just became a well-known, good league pass team. Portland, over the last couple of months, became the guilty league pass pleasure team, especially when Abdi came back. And Abdi is right on the fringe of a third team NBA if Luca is not eligible. Now, I asked multiple NBA sources today. Hey, how about a Luca ruling? That would be cool. Like, we're all doing podcasts this week, doing our votes and we have to turn the votes in, like, you know, it'd be cool knowing if Luka Doncic was eligible or not. Cause there's a huge, still no idea.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  I think they're not even allowed to file the appeal until the last day of the regular season. So that's now. And I mean, it's just, I can't believe that we're in a situation where we have to wait for like, actual litigators to figure out whether a guy is eligible or not. And we're just like, I don't know, this fourth on my MVP ballot, it could be Jalen Brown, it could be Luca Don, I don't know.

• 15:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's some salary cap stuff tied to this, right? Which is one of the reasons you didn't want to vote anymore. But like, like, I have Castle on my third team on, yeah, I'm just spoiler alert, I'm putting him on. And I don't know, does that affect, I have no idea, does that affect like his, it doesn't, right?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  No, he's too soon into his career. Unless I'm wrong.

• 15:51Bill Simmons?

  But what about Scott, does Scotty Barnes, does it bump him? Does he get like a percentage thing? I never, see, I try not to look at this, because I don't want to think about this stuff.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  You gotta be in the right year, and I don't think either of those guys is in their, in their right year so far.

• 16:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, we'll see with Luca. All right, to the East, the game of the day, the reason game 82 exists, the reason the play-in is so much fun. Boston against Orlando. Celtics were like 13 and a half point favorites, and I was telling everybody in my life.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Underdogs, underdogs.

• 16:21Bill Simmons?

  Underdogs, I mean, yeah. They were a live dog, to say the least. If you know anything about this Celtics team, or Joe Missoula, Joe Missoula incapable of tanking.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  And for the record, you and I talked on the phone, six hours before the game, and you predicted exactly what was gonna happen. That the Celtics were gonna play all their backups, and the backups would play hard as shit, and the Magic would be like, oh my god, we're in a game? What's happening to us? Desmond Bain, maybe come back, are you still in the arena? Maybe come back and play, we might need you.

• 16:52Bill Simmons?

  This was, if we hadn't had San Antonio Denver, a weekend ago, this was in the running for game of the year. We had the reunion of the Maine Lobster Clause. This was it. This was the Maine Lobster Clause sports movie. We had a Celtics team that had 11.5 million in active players, playing Orlando, who's playing everybody except Desmond Bain, who did the ceremonial, you'll play the first half, you played 82 games in a season, congrats, buddy, have a seat, enjoy the second half. And he's back in the game with five minutes left, which is the ultimate humiliation. Three Celtics had career highs.

• 17:29Bill Simmons?

  Baylor Shireman, Ron Harper Jr., who was on his way to 40 and got hurt, and then Luca Garza.

• 17:36Bill Simmons?

  Garza hit the craziest three of the Celtics season. Orlando crawls back, ties the game. The Celtics can barely get the ball in, but have somehow scheduled a two for one. That's basically Garza just shooting a 26 footer on Carter right in his face makes it. And if you're thinking about voting Missoula for coach of the year, it's nights like this. This team is just from number, player number one to player number 20 is just wired to try really hard and play smart and do well. And it was an amazing achievement.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  I am, I would vote Joe Missoula for coach either. By the way, I'm thinking of asking the lead to get my ballot back next year. I'm getting itchy, but I would vote Missoula coach of the year over JB Bickerstaff. They would be one, two for me. And my second observation is I'm almost alarmed by how delighted you are talking about game 82. This might be the most delighted I've seen you talking about the Celtics on any of these podcasts.

• 18:31Bill Simmons?

  It's my favorite win of the year.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  I mean, you're, this is, you're, you're kidding.

• 18:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, listen, Shireman is turning into a guy.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Oh, no doubt.

• 18:41Bill Simmons?

  And when I say he's turning into a guy, I'm not saying like this is somebody who's going to be an all-star or be the focal point of an offense. But if we're, he is now at least moved into the, in a playoff series, there's going to be a weird Baylor Shireman half quarter game. Something weird is going to happen with him involved. So there's that. I like Garza and I think Garza is better than Vucevic for this team. And I know they're going to have a week to try to get Vucevic going, but I like the fact that Garza was really good. And I continue to love Ron Harper Jr. And I feel like on a lot of different teams, he would have played 25 minutes a game. So all that stuff was good. But the reality is this is, everyone's like, is this Jalen's team or is it

• 19:22Bill Simmons?

  Jason's team? Whose team is it? It's Missoula's team. This guy, this is one of the best coaching performances I've seen in a long time. He was, you could tell in the first quarter, he's like, was like a game seven and he never, he had that energy and was just.

• 19:39Bill Simmons?

  It was really something.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  For half a second, for half a second there, when you were saying, is it Jalen's team? Is it Jason's team? The reality is, for half a second, I thought you were going to say, it's Shireman's team. I thought there was just, like, my brain just went for half a second. Is he actually going to say it? Shireman, by the way, I think the way I would put it is like, that guy is now ready to be a 20-minute-a-game guy in the highest level of postseason games. Like, whether he has a half or whatever, like, he's ready to play real minutes, real backup bench minutes against the best teams and hold his own on both ends of the floor. He's a good, good player.

• 20:15Bill Simmons?

  Couple of fun things with him. Really good at, at not always breaking up two-on-ones and three-on-ones, but at least kind of fucking up the play a little bit.

• 20:25Bill Simmons?

  And an excellent rebound tapper, which I know is one of your favorite skills.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Love a tap, love a good tap.

• 20:30Bill Simmons?

  There's two different taps. There's one where the guys just blindly tap it backwards, which we were taught when we played basketball never to do that because you're jump-starting a fast break for the other team. Then there's the other tappers that are like really smartly tapping it to teammates or in areas where you can get the ball back. He's really good at that. Uh, the flip side, Orlando.

• 20:52Bill Simmons?

  I think Mosley, I don't think he wasn't on the hot seat before.

• 20:59Bill Simmons?

  But this is a borderline catastrophic Orlando loss. I mean, they actually went backwards in the standings. They now have to play a playing game as the road team.

• 21:13Bill Simmons?

  Inexplicable. The Bain thing, and we'll talk about Atlanta in a second, but this whole thing about just not taking game 82 seriously enough because the other team's going to rest some guys, the league's too good now. Like, we saw it with Denver, we saw it with the Celtics. Like, when guys play scrubs, they're not scrubs anymore, you know?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  No. The only thing I would say is, all it cost them, and I think they understood that it was the most likely scenario by far, all it cost them was home court in the 7-8 game against a Philly team that's not going to have Joel Embiid. I'm, so let's just not, like, pretend that it cost them, like, the fifth seed or the sixth seed. It cost them, and it's certainly embarrassing. The Bain thing was extremely unusual and, and also kind of embarrassing. But it didn't cost them that, like, they should still. They should still be able to beat Philly with no Embiid on the road. And if they can't and their season ends, then Jamal Mosley's seat has been hot all year. It then erupts in flames, I think.

• 22:12Bill Simmons?

  It was a horrific coaching job. And I will say this, as somebody who watched that entire game and was talking to people about it as it was happening, being in disbelief that they weren't pressuring a team that had no point guard. The Celtics had no point guard in that game. They had Banton dribbling the ball up and Shireman and Ron Harper Jr. And Orlando has all these dudes that could pressure you and people that can, you try to trap, just try to get some turnovers and they're just letting them walk the ball up. I, I thought it was incredibly confusing, but the team that was probably the most furious was, you know, Atlanta, who can also look at themselves in the mirror. Because they decided not to care about game 82.

• 22:57Bill Simmons?

  And now they have to play the Knicks. Because they basically tanked away. Instead of the Cavs, but here's my question. But now they have to go Knicks, round one, Celtics, round two, potentially, which I'm going to guess wouldn't be ideal. My question for you is, it seems like the Hawks were cool with that?

• 23:17Speaker 01

  I think they were cool with that. I, I think even mapping it to round two is, kind of misses the point of what their season is. If anything in round two for them is gravy, and sure, it'd be nice to get an easier round two. I don't think they cared Knicks versus Cavs. They've played both, I mean, they've had good games against both of them. And in the last week of the season, they lost to both, but good games. And I think they also probably wrongly assumed that Orlando would win, which would create a three-way tie, that they would then win and keep the fifth seed. And Orlando messed up Orlando's plans. It messed up Philly's travel plans. Philly got to cancel some travel plans and it messed up part of Atlanta's plans. But in the end, I just don't think they really care.

• 23:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, well, I watched, I watched them play the Knicks on Monday and I watched them play the Cavs on Wednesday. I saw the second half of that one. I watched the full Monday game.

• 24:10Bill Simmons?

  And Alexander Walker was great against the Knicks. I mean, he probably had one of his best games of the season. Knicks end up winning at the end. Brunson made some plays.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  That's the game McCollum makes the crazy half court shot that doesn't count by like

• 24:25Bill Simmons?

  Doesn't count.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  A fingernail.

• 24:27Bill Simmons?

  The Hawks looked really comfortable against the Knicks. And if I'm the Knicks, I'm fucking bummed. I would have so much rather have played Toronto than Atlanta. Atlanta has dudes to throw on Brunson. Brunson's gonna get his points and do all his stuff anyway, but they could throw Daniels at him and Alexander Walker at him. That's not nothing, right? They could even put Jalen Johnson on him if you want to go big. It's, it's just a weird matchup for them because their, their team's kind of built to stop the other team's awesome wings, but the, the Hawks have like just weird guard stuff. They get points in bunches. And if you look at like what the last, I had this written down.

• 25:10Bill Simmons?

  Last 31 games, both teams are 21 and 10 and they're right next to each other in ratings. So for 40% of the season, they've basically been right next to each other. I don't know. I, I thought Atlanta Cavs would go seven. I would say six or seven for this. It just like not having done any of the studying yet, but this just at least feels like a longer series to me. What do you think?

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't wait to dig into the film and everything over the next couple of days. But yeah, I don't think it's going to be a quick series. Atlanta's ceiling is just higher than Toronto's. Like Toronto can hum along at an okay level because their defense is always pretty steady. They just can't hit the heights that Atlanta can hit because their offense is just pretty, is pretty limited. To your point about Brunson, it'll be interesting to see. I'm going to go back and watch who, who, you know, who they would have put, who Toronto would have put on Brunson in a playoff series. Whether, can you put Scotty Barnes on him? Do you need Cap? But these are things that we don't care about anymore. And the Knicks dominated Toronto in the regular season. So I'm sure the Knicks would have rather had that matchup. It's a comfortable one for them. Atlanta is like this new team. Used to be like a pretty direct.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  As tricky as Trey was to game plan against on defense, it was a pretty direct game plan like Trey's coming at me on one end. And on the other hand, we can direct our entire offense to wherever Trey is. And now it's they're just a hard team to grasp and plan for and a tricky team to play against.

• 26:36Bill Simmons?

  The problem is they're like a bench guy short. And it was funny watching Portland tonight because Crecci was playing for Portland, who they they gave away, I guess, for tax reasons. But I think that one of the games, I think it was the Knicks game. They got eight points total from their bench. They just got like nothing and Kaminga is going to be, you know, Kaminga is going to be hit or miss. He'll have 21 game, might have two the next game. Toronto, to your point,

• 27:05Bill Simmons?

  and this is Cleveland had to be another one of the happiest teams today. Because Cleveland, I think Cleveland Atlanta would have been a kind of a bloodbath. Toronto went 500 for the last 75% of the season. They started out 14 and 5. They went 2 and 16 against the top three seeds in each conference. They got swept by the Celtics. They got swept by the Knicks. So to your point on the ceiling,

• 27:31Bill Simmons?

  yeah, they they finished with the five seed because of what happened with Orlando. But I just don't feel like there was any difference. Five, six, seven, eight, nine. Even you go all the way to Miami, like I just, all those teams could look good on the right night, you know? And out of all all those teams, I think my favorite is probably Atlanta. If you go from five through 10, I think I thought Atlanta was playing the best at the end of the year.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, Charlotte has has not stumbled, but they've kind of come back to earth a little bit in the last 10 games. Ended up ninth, which is great. It's a great, it's a great season for them anyway. Certainly, they can still get into the playoffs. Atlanta has been the highest level team in Toronto. This has been a huge talking point in Toronto all year. They can't beat good teams. They haven't been good enough at home. They've actually been decent on the road. Just a weird team whose offense on the wrong night just looks clunky and gummed up. And we'll see how they do against the Cavs.

• 28:24Bill Simmons?

  It's a team that has a good bench, which can go a long way over the course of a regular season. But in the playoffs, I don't know if it necessarily matters that much. Atlanta and the Cavs.

• 28:38Bill Simmons?

  What, which, actually, you know what? Let's take a break because I want to find out from you which one just first glance is feeling the most upset to you. But we're going to take a break, come back and answer that. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. Don't forget with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming.

• 29:17Bill Simmons?

  Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat. Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. Family vacations are great. My favorite family vacation ever, I went to cover the 2012 Olympics in London and I brought my family. My son was five, my daughter was seven, and we were in London for three weeks and we went to Paris for another week and it was just awesome. Our kids were the right age to travel. That's my number one family vacation I've ever had. But we've had plenty of those trips where everyone's excited, but you hit the planning part, suddenly it feels like there's too many moving pieces. You start talking yourself out of it. Can't find the right flight, can't find the right hotel.

• 30:02Bill Simmons?

  That's why Expedia is a total game changer. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities, everything's in one spot, which makes the whole process way easier. And the bundle and save feature is huge. The more you bundle, the more you can save because you can book what you need now, add more later, keep saving on the way. Book your flight today, attach your hotel tomorrow and you're still good. So if you're thinking about your next family getaway, bundle your flights, cars, hotels, vacation rentals and save. Savings vary, members only. Book your next trip with Expedia today.

• 30:41Bill Simmons?

  All right, playing games. We're gonna do the upset conversation in a second. Philly Orlando is one of the games.

• 30:48Bill Simmons?

  That's Tuesday night. No Embiid, Mosley in the hot seat. Orlando trades all that stuff for Desmond Bain?

• 30:57Bill Simmons?

  And wins four more games?

• 31:00Bill Simmons?

  And I don't think their fans

• 31:03Bill Simmons?

  are doing backflips about how the season went. Do you think, if you're Detroit?

• 31:10Bill Simmons?

  Do you think Detroit has a preference out of Philly, Detroit, Charlotte, Miami for who they want to play?

• 31:16Bill Simmons?

  Or do you think they just feel like they're good against all those teams?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think if you ask Detroit, they would say, dude, we won 60 games or whatever. We're tough as shit. We play defense, we rebound, like, we're gonna beat the hell out of all these teams. We're not afraid of any of them. Realistically, I think you would have to say Charlotte would be the one that you would say they have. They've demonstrated a very high level of play for a very long time and competitive against us. Although we beat them in the brawl game because they could not handle our size and our physicality. That's what kind of triggered the whole Diabate, Durin, Stewart brawl. So I don't think they'd really have a preference, but if you're telling me I get to choose between like fully healthy Charlotte, Philly without Embiid, Orlando like a half broken team, Miami kind of just like stumbling around for the last 20 games.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  I'd at least want not Charlotte, but I bet they don't care and they shouldn't. They're the number one seed.

• 32:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would say Charlotte as well, except I watched that game Friday and

• 32:14Bill Simmons?

  the Pistons really big boyed them in that game. Which has happened to Charlotte, you know, the more, and they've been an amazing story, especially when you think they started 4-14 or whatever it was. But they're a little small and those, the bully teams seem to really enjoy going against them. And I'm starting to wonder if Detroit would just be a bad matchup for them. I might have been too low on Detroit.

• 32:38Bill Simmons?

  I especially like we did our scariest play like scariest ceiling of a playoff team. I feel a little differently about Detroit than I did a couple of weeks ago.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Well, the way they weathered the Cade injury was tremendous and they're just they're they're just. I think everyone is focused rightfully so on the outside shooting and do they have enough? Do they have enough secondary creation, all that? Jenkins has potentially answered at least a bit of like the can anyone but Cade create some offense for us? Off the dribble, we'll see how he holds up in the playoffs. But they just get by with just cutting toughness, size, rebounding, and their defense is legit. Top to bottom, they're really good and like they they. To your point about where they had where we had them in the scariest draft, like their offense may never reach scary levels. But you're just not going to beat them in a short series like even if they lose to Boston or lose to the Knicks.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Or it's going to be like a long nasty series and that tends, I think that just favors them because they're just bigger. And meaner and tougher than a lot of these other teams and they wear you down.

• 33:40Bill Simmons?

  I think one other thing happened with them. So I was thinking about it Friday night because I really thought Charlotte was going to show up Friday night. And I didn't bet on it, but I just felt like, you know, coming off the fight. It's in Charlotte, this will be a nice little test for the Hornets like they're playing for stuff and Detroit really big boy to. I wonder like in the last month or so, because this this happens and this is more of a football thing than a basketball thing. But in football, there's always the nobody believes in us team. Especially when we get toward the playoffs. And there's this team that gets a chip on their shoulder because they feel like they're not being respected. Basketball, it's a little tougher because I think for the most part. It's really tough to if you play like shit, you're probably going to play like shit in the playoffs.

• 34:23Bill Simmons?

  And if you're really erratic in the regular season, you're probably going to be Miami is really the only team that's been able to pull off the nobody believes in us thing over the last. 10 years and a real chip on their shoulder and a switch. I think Detroit has that now. I think they're, they just seem pissed off to me. Like, I don't know if you read or, or heard any of the stuff from the Charlotte game, but like, Durin didn't want to do any sort of post-game anything like handshakes. The game ended and they're like, we're off the floor. Like, they were still mad about the fight stuff.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  I like that. I like it.

• 34:56Bill Simmons?

  So I wonder, like, and then Cade goes out and everybody's like, well, Detroit's done. Cade's out. They're not gonna, they're gonna lose the number one seed. They didn't. I just think there's, I've been reading between the lines, reading stuff on them, and I, I think that there's an edge to them now that I'm not sure they had at the start of the season.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, they, they are the nobody believes in us team, which is ironic because they're the number one seed. I felt like J.J. Reddick tried to nudge the Lakers into that when he was like, everybody's, everybody wants to play us. It's like, yeah, man, with no Luca and Reeves, you can probably, you can probably get why that is. You don't get to be the nobody believes in us team, but Detroit, Detroit has a point. They have a point. People think they're young, shooting challenged, all that. Cade got hurt. I thought they were safe for the number one seed. I didn't think they were gonna lose that at all, but they, they have a point and I, I'm very excited to watch them in the playoffs. I, if they roll in the first round and, and come like guns blazing in the second round for Cleveland or whatever, that's gonna be a lot of fun.

• 35:55Bill Simmons?

  They have a great crowd at home. They're gonna have home court. They got something with Jenkins that they didn't have before the All-Star break, where they've turned Jenkins now into a real asset. You know, those Cade minutes. Cade, they got to play a couple of games here heading into the playoffs, so he's not just coming in.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Looked good.

• 36:13Bill Simmons?

  Flat. I will say though, this is, I want to mention this. As you know, I'm the unofficial czar of professional sports. I think this is another great case for the one seed in each conference. It should be five games at home. 2-2-3. Because for Detroit, so let's say Philly loses to Orlando, and now they have to play Philly in round one.

• 36:42Bill Simmons?

  But maybe Embiid can come back. Like, I'd, I'd wonder who they would want to pick out of the Philly, Orlando, Charlotte, Miami? Or what if Charlotte ends up being the eighth seed and they're like, fuck? And Boston gets Philly and Orlando's out? Um, it just feels like there should be some advantage toward being first that I don't think we have.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  You're preaching to the preacher. I think the number one seed, you get to pick its own opponent. I think I'm fine with the five, two home court thing in the first round. If you play the whole 82 game season and in a year where teams are not really playing the whole 82 game season for good reasons, for bad reasons, and you come out number one, and in Detroit's case, number one by a pretty hefty margin in the East, you should get a big, a bigger reward than you get. And by the way, Detroit played its guys every game down the stretch. They didn't have to do that. They did it because I think they pride themselves on, we want to stay in rhythm. We want to stay in peak physicality and we want to deliver, like, we want to go in the playoffs feeling like we didn't leave anything on the table and we're going in like full blast. And I like, that was fun.

• 37:43Bill Simmons?

  You know, I wonder at the end of the year if, if a team should get a trophy from like the Adam Silver Trophy or something for just like, I'm just proud of you guys that you gave a shit for every, every week. Thank you. Thank you for being a role model of how the league should work. You guys really cared the entire time. Uh, here's another reason why they should get a two, two, three. It's actually better for Boston, the way the setup is now, because the seven, eight game happens and Boston's going to know from that point on who their opponent's going to be, right? They have four days. But if you're Detroit, now you have to wait for the eight, nine. Like, it could be like, let's say Charlotte versus Orlando for the eight, nine. And you're not going to know until, when's the game? Friday night?

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Something like that.

• 38:27Bill Simmons?

  And then we go on Sunday. So you have the number one seed, allegedly with a huge advantage, not knowing who they're going to play on a Friday morning, having to scout two teams. It seems stupid to me. Uh, Phoenix, Portland is the other seven, eight. And as we said before, genuinely think Portland could win this. Scoot stock, by the way. Uh, my accountant just called like a half hour ago, asked if I saw the crossover in the first half when he just went right to the rim and looked like Derrick Rose. I said I did. Um, but Scoot, Scoot again looked pretty good. Avdia looks great. Uh, the center, the team has a nice vibe.

• 39:04Bill Simmons?

  Not like, you know, if they win the, if they are able to win the, uh, seven seed, and put them against San Antonio.

• 39:15Bill Simmons?

  It's not nothing. I don't think they'd win. But if I'm San Antonio, I'm like, all right, this kind of sucks. I thought we were gonna play Phoenix.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Is either team that pleasant to play against? I mean, it's kind of a rock fight between two mediocre offenses and tough, physical defenses, lots of turnovers, lots of fouls. San Antonio is above, should be above caring about this and should wipe out either of those teams in a playoff series. But Portland's frisky. I've also held on to some Scoot stock, uh, over the years, not as much as you. So I've been happy to see that. And I'll, I'll pick all the play in, all the play in games on my pod, either tomorrow or Thursday or whenever, whatever's left. I'll, I'll pick them and I, cause it's, it's folly to pick one game, but it's also fun. I very well might pick Portland to win that game in Phoenix.

• 40:02Bill Simmons?

  I have a FanDuel line. You were correct. Suns four and a half. You claim you're not a gambling guy and you're just picking lines exactly.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Look at me.

• 40:12Bill Simmons?

  Portland is plus 152.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  I don't know what that means.

• 40:16Bill Simmons?

  I like it.

• 40:18Bill Simmons?

  That means if you bet a hundred dollars on them, you'd win 152 if they win.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 40:23Bill Simmons?

  So, and then the Magic Sixers, Sixers are one point favorites. And then the Clippers are minus three and a half against the Warriors.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Magic Sixers may be the play in game I'm least excited about in the history of the play in that doesn't involve the Chicago Bulls.

• 40:43Bill Simmons?

  Interesting. Didn't we have an Atlanta Charlotte play in game at one point? I feel like that was worse.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  But any game involving those two teams is just gonna be, there's gonna be goofy offense. Somebody might score 145. LaMelo will take some crazy shots. There's always fun stuff going on in those games.

• 40:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, the nine, 10 Charlotte Miami, which, uh, is really the, uh, one of the worst rivalries we have. That would be a fun thing. Top, top five worst rivalries. Charlotte Miami, how many times you think they played the playoff series? They're in the same division.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  I mean, they played once. It was a seven game ugly, ugly series back in the day.

• 41:21Bill Simmons?

  They played three times. 2001, Charlotte won three, nothing. 2014 Miami sweep. LeBron's last year and then 2016, the aforementioned ugly four to three battle that Miami won. I think that was.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Nobody won. Somebody just lost.

• 41:40Bill Simmons?

  Let's say. Stephen Jackson still there on Charlotte? No, who was there on Charlotte too? Al Jefferson?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  I think big Al Kemba, Kemba's certainly there. Gerald Henderson's probably involved.

• 41:54Bill Simmons?

  How sad is it that this was 10 years ago? I don't remember anything about this series other than it was seven. I had an idea for this winner. Charlotte Miami winner advances to the eight, nine. Loser has to take Terry Rozier back. That's it. He's actually at the game. He's hanging above the arena like the world wrestling when they do the WWE, when they do the money in the bank belt. Terry Rozier is just in a strap hanging over the arena. And then after the game gets lowered down and rejoins one of the two teams. That's my, that's my, uh, my idea. I don't know if you're into it.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 42:32Bill Simmons?

  Rozier, the Rozier booby prize game.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Look, if, if we're trying to gin up interest in the play in it's, it's got, it's not the worst idea you could come up with. It's certainly the most controversial and probably Adam Silver is going to listen to this and be like, why? Why did they have to say his name? Why?

• 42:48Bill Simmons?

  Miami waved him two days ago.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  I know he's in the news. Can't, you can't hide from the news NBA. You can't hide from the news.

• 42:55Bill Simmons?

  We'd come back from commercial and they cut back up to him hanging over the court again. There's Terry Rozier. He's an hour away from finding out where it goes.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Why is he on his phone? What is he doing?

• 43:05Bill Simmons?

  I thought we disabled his wireless. And then Clippers, Golden State is the definition of an awesome playing game. Steph versus Kawhi. 2017, we're back, baby. The rematch Kawhi's revenge? No, probably not.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  You were so excited. You texted me so excited that you were gonna get a Los Angeles home Steph Clippers game.

• 43:28Bill Simmons?

  I'm legitimately excited.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  As if this was like 2014 Blake Griffin, the Sterling controversies, Chris Paul, young Warriors rising up. And I'm like, this, this might be the least exciting possible Clippers Warriors postseason matchup of the last 15. It is the least exciting, but it's still, it's still Steph Curry and it's still Kawhi Leonard, who's gonna make second team All-NBA. Steph would have been right in that conversation too, if he hadn't got hurt.

• 43:57Bill Simmons?

  You know, it's sad because I knew you when you were an impressionable pup. You had wide eyes. You really loved basketball. Just the thought of Steph and Kawhi in a do or die game would have delighted you to no end. Now you've been on some studio shows, you're hanging out with Dwyane Wade.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Okay, alright.

• 44:13Bill Simmons?

  And now it's like, you're too, you're too good for, you're too good for Steph versus Kawhi. Guess what? I'll tell you what, Zach Lowe, I'm showing up at like 5:30 for warmups. I'm gonna get there. As soon as doors open, I'm in. I'm watching.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  And I will expect, if you are there at 5:30, I will expect at least one tweet from the Body Language Doctor about Derek Jones Jr.'s pregame warmup. How's Gi Santos, how's Gi Santos high five game in the warmup? Like, just give me something. Give me some insight.

• 44:45Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna do multiple IG posts, getting ready. I want to watch Steph do the full court heave shot, whatever he does. If you're, two questions off this game really quick. Ken Golden State went two in a row. I think it is conceivable, as lousy as they've been this year. Could they just beat the Clippers in Portland or Phoenix back to back? I think they could.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 45:10Bill Simmons?

  If you're the Clips, do you wish you had Zubats in this game and you never made the trade? Or you still love the trade?

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Love the trade. Good value. And we'll see how the lottery unfolds.

• 45:21Bill Simmons?

  I think that's also the right answer. And part of that trade was, they thought they're getting Niederhauser, who was a badass for like a week and a half and then got hurt. But I think that was part of the reason.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  That's your guy now. Matherin slumped to the finish line.

• 45:33Bill Simmons?

  He did.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Has hurt both that trade for now and also his value in the offseason. It'll be interesting to see if the Clippers even re-sign him if the number gets to a point where they are not comfortable with it.

• 45:45Bill Simmons?

  I mean, it depends on what LeBron is gonna want when he switches teams.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Okay, alright.

• 45:51Bill Simmons?

  How much money are they gonna have to have left over?

• 45:55Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not, I mean, do you, do you really, you really think there's a chance LeBron goes to the Clippers? I've, I've always been told through the years, hard no on the Clippers.

• 46:04Bill Simmons?

  I've, I've said that as well. I'm just trying to torture the Clipper fans. Sorry.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Oh, they, they've been through enough. My god.

• 46:12Bill Simmons?

  I gen, remember when I threw my Warriors theory at you with LeBron a while ago? I don't know, six weeks ago?

• 46:19Bill Simmons?

  I'm starting to become convinced that's gonna happen. And I think it's the expendables. Remember when Sly Stallone did the action movie when he got all the older action heroes back together?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:29Bill Simmons?

  And it was like-

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Never saw it.

• 46:31Bill Simmons?

  Kind of an all-star team of older Dolph Lundgren, was it all a bunch of people?

• 46:37Bill Simmons?

  I'm really convinced that that's how this plays out.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Look, they're looking at everybody, right? Like Stein, I think, broke the news that they looked at Kawhi at the trade deadline, which is true. I've now confirmed that that's true. And like, if they're just like, whatever, who can help Steph? Who's gettable? If we can't get Giannis, who, who can we get?

• 46:56Bill Simmons?

  Heard some Giannis stuff, too.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  You did? It's been all over the, with the Warriors or just how much of a disaster this whole situation is?

• 47:04Bill Simmons?

  Trade preferences. Heard this. He doesn't wanna be on the West Coast, which rules out my Portland theory that I was really excited about.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 47:14Bill Simmons?

  From what I heard. Cause, and I looked at a map to back up the information I was getting.

• 47:20Bill Simmons?

  Greece really is far from America, it turns out. That's what the map said. Not close. As it turns out, Greece, far away. But when you're going from Greece to America,

• 47:32Bill Simmons?

  the East Coast turns out closer to Greece than the West Coast.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Do you wanna talk-

• 47:36Bill Simmons?

  And Portland, Portland really far away. Portland's like, you're talking 19 hours from Greece.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  I don't know, it's ni, it's 19, but it's, it's long. I'm glad that this is dawning on you. I was gonna, this is great-

• 47:49Bill Simmons?

  It didn't dawn on me right away.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  I was gonna talk, I was gonna ask you if you wanted to talk about the Hungarian election today, if you really just wanna get into some geopolitics? Or do you wanna just, just keep, leave that over to the side?

• 48:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so, um, but on the flip side, suddenly a team like Charlotte, not that far from Greece.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Hey, look, they had, look, okay, we're not doing this.

• 48:10Bill Simmons?

  The Knicks and Nets.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  We're not doing this. We're not doing Giannis.

• 48:13Bill Simmons?

  Just look at a map and go down the eastward, eastern seaboard.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  You know what I want? First of all, the Bucks probably shouldn't care and don't care anymore. And number two, give me the guy who's like, you know what I want Midwest? I like it here. Give me another Midwest team. Deal me to Chicago. Let me go save the Bulls. Someone has to save the Bulls. Someone has to save them from themselves. I'll do it. It's 100 miles away. I'll do it.

• 48:35Bill Simmons?

  I'm glad you mentioned the Bulls, one of five American cities with direct flights to Greece.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  My least favorite major American airport, by the way, O'Hare. I hate O'Hare.

• 48:51Bill Simmons?

  I, I think mine is, is probably Atlanta. It's just too big. I don't like when I have to get on a tram to go from one terminal to another. I don't like trams. I just wanna, just wanna land. You know what's an amazing airport? Burbank.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Never flown into Burbank before.

• 49:09Bill Simmons?

  Burbank, we did San, we did San Francisco, Burbank. Amazing. You're like out and you're like in your car in a second. Uh, round one.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:17Bill Simmons?

  So Boston versus Philly or Orlando, those are the two choices.

• 49:23Bill Simmons?

  If we go upset watch, let's cross off OKC or San Antonio, because no round one team is beating either of them.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:31Bill Simmons?

  Upset teams, Minnesota beating Denver.

• 49:36Bill Simmons?

  Who is even favored in Lakers Houston? I better look at that.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Lakers have home court. I would, I think Houston should be favored personally.

• 49:45Bill Simmons?

  Houston is giant favorites, minus 900. So Lakers would be the upset in that.

• 49:51Bill Simmons?

  Cleveland, Toronto, so Toronto beating Cleveland, Atlanta beating the Knicks, or Detroit or Boston losing to the hodgepodge of teams. What is your most upsety? Where is upset watch going, in your opinion, for you?

• 50:07Speaker 01

  I mean, I think of all those series, I'm gonna just park Lakers Rockets over here, because I don't, we'll see who's healthy, who's not.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  I'm tempted to say Minnesota. I just don't have enough confidence in the state of their team over the last month. I guess, I guess Knicks, I guess Knicks Hawks, because I think the Hawks are, are interesting. I will pick the Knicks to win that series, but I think the Cavs, who have had their playoff bugaboos over the years, kind of lucked into a, a good matchup for them in the first round, that they should be able to just, no matter if Harden comes out and has a bad game, or Jared Allen gets pushed around on the boards, or whatever usual stuff happens to them, that should just be a series they should win. So I guess I would say the Knicks.

• 50:51Bill Simmons?

  I would as well, because I just don't think Toronto has it in them to beat Cleveland. I think that would have to be a real collapse. I will say, Cleveland fits a lot of the recipe you would want for a playoff upset because of their defense. Like, that's just a great way to lose a series, not being able to guard anybody and giving up a bunch of threes. I'm trying to think which team would have a better chance of upsetting Detroit. And I think it's probably Charlotte, even though we just litigated how small they looked in that. But just the Charlotte three-point shooting, the longer that series goes, if they just got hot, I would start to get scared after a while. Plus, you're in a situation where LaMelo, I don't think he would be, but it's conceivable he could be the best

• 51:35Bill Simmons?

  player in the series, right? I'm not saying he would be, I'm saying it's at least in play.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  It's in play. I, I, I keep trying to talk myself into what I thought the, the magic could be in the preseason, like Franz is back, Anthony Black is back, they've got their full complement of players, they have a scary upside, their defense has been top eight in the last couple of years, not this year, it's slipped backwards, their offense is actually better, but it's still kind of a mess, but they have all these guys, they're all healthy, and it's just, too much has happened, too much has gone wrong, there's just too much eh there. And they should be, they should be the answer to this question, even with as well as Charlotte has played, the fully healthy Magic, who had a 50 and a half over under before the season, should be the answer to this question, and they're just, they just aren't.

• 52:23Bill Simmons?

  We did bad on the over unders. It was the worst I've ever done.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  I'm glad.

• 52:29Bill Simmons?

  No, but here's the thing, and I'm not making excuses.

• 52:34Bill Simmons?

  I think all the tanking really screwed up some of the record stuff, like some of the stuff that normally works. Even like one of, I had the, the unders for Washington and Brooklyn, I think for, because I just thought they're trying to.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  I think we all did.

• 52:49Bill Simmons?

  The problem is with this many teams trying to tank, they end up playing each other a bunch of times. So you had teams getting wins that didn't even want to win. That happened. The Milwaukee, um, the Milwaukee, Dallas, Golden State, those situations being weird. It was just an awful year, but now I'm really, I'm motivated to make a comeback. I have some playoff odds for you on FanDuel. Knicks minus 255 for the series over Atlanta. So that's a little low. I would have said three to one, but minus 255. Atlanta plus 215 to win that. And then Cleveland is minus 480 against Toronto. Toronto is plus 370 to take that.

• 53:29Bill Simmons?

  And then Minnesota, Denver, what do you think the, you know, nothing about odds, but what do you think the odds are for that Minnesota, Denver?

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Based on all the numbers you just threw out on those other series, I'll say like Denver minus 500.

• 53:42Bill Simmons?

  Denver minus 330.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Okay. So the, so faith in, faith in the wolves. My stealth contender who all, first of all, stealth means stealth, right? Like low chance, but possible stealth is a key word. And also matchup dependent, and they've just walked into a nightmarish path to get anywhere in the playoffs. 330 is a little lower than I expected, given ants up, you know, in and out of the lineup. Jaden has just come back and that's a little lower than I would have thought.

• 54:13Bill Simmons?

  I agree. I think there's some pedigree stuff with Minnesota, just the two conference finals.

• 54:20Bill Simmons?

  Which I think is meaningful. Okay. Enough foreplay. It's time.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Fifty minutes of foreplay.

• 54:29Bill Simmons?

  Last year we did it. This'll go faster this year.

• 54:34Bill Simmons?

  Our 25 most intriguing people in the 2026 playoffs. We did this last year and somehow picked 28.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 54:42Bill Simmons?

  Highlights of last year, we, we did categories.

• 54:48Bill Simmons?

  So it's basically a draft. We're going back and forth to drafting, but you have to draft a player for a specific category. And here are those categories of America. Apex superstar, beloved bench guy, crossroads guy, meaning somebody who is at the crossroads of his career, crossroads with his team, whatever. Defensive stud, feel-good star, hot seat coach, hot seat wild card, could be coach or player.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Oh, I didn't know that could be, I didn't know that could be a player too.

• 55:19Bill Simmons?

  It can be a human being.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:21Bill Simmons?

  Could be an owner.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 55:23Bill Simmons?

  Legacy guy, second banana, third banana. The leap. Last year I took Tyrese Halliburton as my leap guy. And he made a huge leap. Trade machine guy.

• 55:37Bill Simmons?

  Somebody we're coming out of the playoffs like that guy's getting traded. Weak link.

• 55:43Bill Simmons?

  And then we each get a bonus guy who has to be mentioned. So I gave you the first pick. You have to pick somebody. And then stick him in one of those categories. So it's your most intriguing player assigned to a category.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  So you're expecting me to come in here and get Wemby or Jokic or SGA because you know, I, I guess I want to win this, right? Like there's, I, I don't know how one wins this, but you think I'm going to take one of these names and I'm not. I am going to, for the crossroads category, I'm starting here. I am taking Donovan Mitchell in the crossroads category. And I just think he's had a fascinating career. He's made the playoffs every year of his career. And has never made the conference finals. His team, and it's not on him. People say like, he's never made the conference finals. His teams have never made the conference finals. He's had some great series. He's had some clunkers. His teams, particularly in Utah, have had, and both, both Utah and Cleveland have had some like

• 56:38Speaker 01

  pretty epic flameouts. I think in all, I think he's been in the playoffs eight times already. Eight for eight. His teams have won, I think, just one series where you could say they beat a team as good as them, or maybe a little bit better. And that was his rookie year when they beat the Thunder with Paul George and Russ in the, in the first round in six games. They had the same record that year. Other than that, they've lost to their peers. They've lost to a couple of teams that who are, they're worse than. They haven't beaten anyone who's better than them. And look, Cleveland's obviously had a kind of a checkered history with this core. They exchanged one member of it, Darius Garland, for James Harden. Donovan Mitchell's the guy I trust the most of Cleveland's best players. Like, I expect him

• 57:21Speaker 01

  to be great in the playoffs. He's been great in the playoffs. He's been at times like the only Cavalier you felt you could count on in the, in the playoffs. But it's just like, I, I kind of want to see him make, make a run longer than he's been because he's been such a consistently great player. And it's a crossroads pick for me also because like, if they, if they disappoint in the playoffs again, they've already traded one of these guys. I just don't, he's not like up for, you know, he's not a flight risk anytime soon. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like, there just comes a point, you've seen it with the Clippers, the Chris Paul, Blake Griffin Clippers, where like, if you just lose too many times too early in the playoffs

• 58:02Speaker 01

  for what your pedigree should be, it just starts to go sideways a little bit. And I think Cleveland is kind of nearing that point. And Donovan Mitchell, it just, it's, I, I want to see a deeper playoff run, that's all.

• 58:14Bill Simmons?

  And he's had some bad losses. I, I think the last couple of years were bad, but the, the Clippers, Utah one, were, didn't Kawhi, how many, I can't remember because that was during COVID.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Kawhi got hurt halfway to that series.

• 58:27Bill Simmons?

  Kawhi got hurt halfway through the series and they still lost.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  They were up 2-0. They lost four games in a row. And the sixth game is Terrence Mann having like an out of body experience and hitting a million threes and just, and the other, the, the next year when Utah limped out of the Gobert, Gobert Mitchell era, Luca was hurt for part of that series and they still couldn't beat the Mavs.

• 58:47Bill Simmons?

  That was the Brunson, hmm, maybe he could be, have his own team.

• 58:53Bill Simmons?

  I thought that was a really good pick.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 58:55Bill Simmons?

  I had a, I ironically had Mitchell third on my list. Not first, but I had him third and I saw the case.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't have for, for that category or for just your whole list.

• 59:11Bill Simmons?

  Um.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  But just make your pick.

• 59:14Bill Simmons?

  I would have, no, I would have put him either legacy or crossroad. Here's the thing with Mitchell. We've, we've gone through this a couple of times with players. How far can we go with this guy? Chris Paul, you mentioned him, he got in there. I think Dame was in there too.

• 59:29Bill Simmons?

  Even though Dame did get to the conference finals in that really weird Golden State Houston year when Durant got hurt, all that, you know? And then they got swept, but I, I don't think anyone felt like that was a conference finals team.

• 59:40Bill Simmons?

  Westbrook, I think was another one. We're like, what? How far are we going with this? And I think Mitchell is certainly a better, higher upside player than, than, than Westbrook was. On paper, he seems like somebody who should be able to be the best guy on at least a conference finalists. I also think if it doesn't happen this year, I wouldn't be surprised if he's on another team next year, which is why Crossroads, I think was the right pick for them. I think we both agree. If this, if something bad happens to this team in one of the first two rounds, I'm prepared for any outcome with any guy in that roster.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Nothing, nothing would shock me if they lose. I mean, God forbid they lose in the first round. I expect them to win that series, but if Detroit just, we've seen different versions of Cleveland, but with the same front line, we've seen them get out physical and out toughed in the playoffs before by big burly teams, notably the Knicks. If that would happen again in a Detroit series, I just, all, all bets are off.

• 1:00:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because you could even see. I don't know. I, I noticed the luxury tax bill came out. Seven teams paid the luxury tax. The Cavs had the highest luxury tax bill. I think it was 68 million. I don't think they're doing that again. And then you look at some of the desperate teams around the league that would want to make a big splash. And we'll see. Mitchell always like, it always seemed like he was supposed to go to the Knicks. Went to, went to school in Greenwich, like famously want to be the East Coast and then just kind of ended up on Cleveland. I've always been suspicious of that. And maybe Brooklyn, how many years in a row are the size just going to be like, yeah, we're going to suck again. Like at some point, they're going to have to make a real run at having a team.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Well, they don't have their pick, they don't control their pick next year, uh, which makes them kind of a wild card in the off season. Look, I, I expect like Donovan Mitchell has resigned with Cleveland at the, at the moment when he could. He's got multiple years left on his.

• 1:01:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we know that doesn't mean anything though.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  No, but he's also like, I, I don't want to make this too much of a panic thing. He's got a lot of years left on his deal. He said all the right things. He's been happy there. Who, people tend to get less happy when their teams, he's got, he's actually, he's only got, um, next year and a player option left on his deal.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  He's also showing up for them in the playoffs when other people on their team were injured or didn't show up. So you've got to give him credit for that. But yeah, this is a big, a big moment for him and for the Cavs.

• 1:01:59Bill Simmons?

  He had a really good season. If Luca is ruled ineligible, which we're just never going to find out if he's eligible or not. If he is ruled ineligible, I think Mitchell is going to be my fifth guy on that team.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  How about this? If we're going to take forever to make these rulings and we're going to have to litigate this. Why do you remember the NBA award show when they tried to make that a thing and like kept all the awards secret for this big award show?

• 1:02:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Red carpet and then they, they pretend like that just never happened and we never tried that. Let's never talk about it. Bring it back. If it's going to take forever, let's all get together again in July and give out some awards. They can get the lawyers can come out like the Ernst and Young guys and, and announce it and talk, you know, who knows?

• 1:02:37Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to take, uh, in my,

• 1:02:44Bill Simmons?

  in my, uh, apex superstar spot. I'm going to take Wemby.

• 1:02:51Bill Simmons?

  And I do think, I liked your Mitchell case. I had Wemby first on my ballot. I think he is by far the most intriguing guy in these playoffs. I wrote down in my notes, is this his 1975 Jaws moment? It's just the moment when we are releasing a summer blockbuster and it's gonna make a kajillion dollars and be known as one of the best films of its kind. And we're always gonna remember this was the year it came out. Or we're gonna wait a year, two years. Who knows? I'm old enough to remember when it seemed like Sampson, Olajuwon, were gonna be around forever and that lasted a year. I never trust any sort of long-term anything when big guys

• 1:03:34Bill Simmons?

  are involved. And I know right now, he has a really good team that's been kicking ass since January 1st. He was the best player I saw in person this year. I'm not voting for him for MVP, but he was the best single performance I saw in person this year. My questions are, can he play 35 to 37 minutes a game in the playoffs, which I think he's gonna have to do for this team to win? And you're gonna have to rip through this Denver, OKC, whoever comes out of the East Gauntlet, win four in a row. My question for you, if they make the finals and he's age 22, but they lose in the finals, is that season still a huge win for him? Because I would say it is.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Yeah, absolutely. Even though you talk it out and you think they lost to an Eastern Conference team in the finals, they'd be favored. To get to the finals with this young group of guys and a couple of veterans would be a massive win. Great pick. I'm jealous you got Wemby. He also doesn't really fit any other category. Like, he's too young for the legacy guys. He's too good for the defensive stud category. He's already made the leap. There's probably another leap coming, but this is the only category you can really, maybe feel-good star could be, but he doesn't feel right for that. So you got him in the right category.

• 1:04:51Bill Simmons?

  The other thing that we should just mention really quick and why, you know, I'm always excited for the NBA playoffs. Trying to think of the last time a new guy was in the playoffs that was kind of can't miss. I don't care who San Antonio plays every round. I'm not missing a minute of the Spurs in the playoffs. And I think the last guy was probably Curry out of the new guys. Obviously going back to the 2000s, there were others. But when Curry, and we were working together at Grantland, I think it was your first year, when Curry had kind of his breakout that year when they upset Denver and then they lost to San Antonio. And at some point during that,

• 1:05:28Bill Simmons?

  it became like, I'm not missing a Curry playoff game anymore, just period. And I feel that way about Wemby. I think Wemby, out of all the guys that are in the playoffs, I don't want to miss Wemby or Jokic one minute of any playoff game with those guys.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  I felt that way about Luka when he first cracked the playoffs with Dallas and he lived up to the hype.

• 1:05:46Bill Simmons?

  That's good. I should have mentioned him. Yeah, you're right. That's good. Luka, but it was, was it in the bubble?

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  First playoff in the bubble.

• 1:05:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, in the bubble. You're right. That's a good call. My apologies to Luka. All right, you have the next pick.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  All right, I'm gonna pick Jokic. And I have him in the legacy category.

• 1:06:05Bill Simmons?

  It's the right category.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  And I think it's, it's the right pick. And for just, that's just this reason only. And I was hoping the seeds would fall this way for this pick. Because he is a three-time MVP. He probably should be a four-time MVP. I don't think he's gonna win this year. He's gonna get closer. He's gonna get second again, probably. You, I think before the season, said he's already one of the 10 greatest players of all time. I don't think that's premature to say that. And I went over this on my pod last week. If you look at all the guys who have won three or more MVPs, it's a very short list. Every one of them but Moses Malone has more than one ring. And I think that's one of the reasons why Moses Malone doesn't get mentioned enough in these like all-time

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  great conversations. And that's nothing against Jokic who, if you replayed the 21 and 22 seasons with the fully healthy Nuggets, it feels like they get one of those titles potentially, like one of those may have belonged to them. You can make the same argument about the Clippers. But it, at some point.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  He's gonna, I don't know if he's gonna have to get a second ring to enter that kind of stratosphere because he's just been this good. I just think if he does, and if he does it this season by running through this gauntlet of teams, the entire conversation about him goes even up another level where some of the most hallowed names in the league begin to not only be mentioned alongside him, but maybe a little bit behind him. But that's, that's if, right? That's if. And at some point, I do think he'll make another run to the finals. And if it's, if it's this year, we're going to be having some pretty high level conversations about him after the finals.

• 1:07:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  I think I'm nailing this draft through two picks.

• 1:07:53Bill Simmons?

  No, that's, you made all the right points. I would have made all the same ones. Moses is a great comparison because he was the best player in the league for five years and had some bad luck with the teams he was on. Only won one title, only won finals. He made the finals with like a 41, 41 team. But for five years, he was the best guy in the league. Jokic has been the best guy in the league for this entire decade. He's either been one or two, depending on who got super hot that year or whatever else is going on. I did a tweet this week about, this weekend about, if he's second in MVP, if he finishes number two, which I think is conceivable, that he'd be the third player ever to, to

• 1:08:33Bill Simmons?

  be first or second MVP for six straight years. The other two are Russell and Bird. There's only, he would be, I think, the sixth guy ever to just have six top two MVP finishes. And I think MVP finishes are super important. It's a good way to look at who actually had real impact. It's easy to be like, oh, this guy was amazing. But go look at where did they stand in the season. This is the thing that is probably the worst for Curry's top 10 Ks, is he kind of doesn't have enough like top three, top four MVPs. If you're really putting him against everybody, it's the one thing you can ding him on. And for Jokic, it's the finals.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  By the way.

• 1:09:13Bill Simmons?

  Years from now, you look back and you go, he only won one title. What happened? And you weren't there to see how devastated the Murray injury was because it took two playoffs away from him.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  And the other thing I will say, I was out to dinner with some guys in Denver last night Nuggets fans.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  They wanted the third seed and they wanted the gauntlet. And I thought it was interesting why. I don't know if the team probably doesn't care about this, but they are so sick of hearing about how Denver had an easy road to the first championship, how they got to face two play in teams along the way, including in the finals, that they now want, they they're they're not getting greedy. They're like, if we're going to win it again, I want to win it the hardest way possible. And and it just got me thinking about not only Jokic and the MVP in history, but like if they actually did did this against these teams, what it would mean for for the whole franchise.

• 1:10:04Bill Simmons?

  The gauntlet's good. I mean, my favorite Celtic team ever was the 87 team, the year after they won in 86 when they had to, they basically had a seven game war against Milwaukee, a seven game war against Detroit, and then they had to play the Lakers. And then he beat the Lakers, but it was like, just that pulled the most out of them. They're almost broken down at the end and it was a real championship run.

• 1:10:26Bill Simmons?

  You know, this Nuggets team's a little younger. I think they could survive other things. I think there's more chances here. But Jokic just had the best year of his career and he's probably not going to win the MVP. The offensive stats, I was doing all the work this weekend trying to figure out a vote for, and the offensive stats are just like, you just can't even believe it. It's like you're just like, you're just like, oh, my God, like true shooting. Just pick any stat or like, oh, my God, this guy's created over, what do you, 28 points a game and 12 a C created like over 50 points a game of offense?

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  And I'll say it. I'll say it again. The defense.

• 1:11:04Bill Simmons?

  And was the best rebounder?

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Their defense has not been good enough in the last 20 games, whatever problematic. Maybe it's a wait till the playoffs thing, maybe whatever. Like if you're if you're just focusing on that, what you're missing is like, they're making it look so easy on offense, no matter who they play, that it's a it's actually a little bit scary. It's some of these games are like, it's like shooting fish in the barrel. It's it's just too easy for them that if they actually ramp up their defense at all, like Peyton Watson gets healthy, whatever, they can absolutely win the title. It's just a hard road. So that's my that's my pick.

• 1:11:39Bill Simmons?

  Denver 12 to 1 to win the title.

• 1:11:42Bill Simmons?

  OKC is plus 125, San Antonio is plus 480, and the Celtics are plus 550.

• 1:11:48Bill Simmons?

  Cleveland is 10 to 1. That was the other one. Cleveland's odds dropped because of how the playoffs played out with Toronto, which I thought was interesting.

• 1:11:56Bill Simmons?

  Okay, really good pick. You're doing a great job. Your scouting department should be proud.

• 1:12:03Bill Simmons?

  I have to take Tatum here because it's a most intriguing draft.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:13Bill Simmons?

  And I'm gonna put him in the feel-good star category.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  He was my number one pick for that category. I was actually gonna take, I might have, we're gonna take him next round.

• 1:12:25Bill Simmons?

  We don't need to talk about Tatum. Everybody knows the stakes. This was one of the craziest comebacks I've ever seen. And in some ways, he's even better than he was before he left. In other ways, he's not. Like, I thought that Knicks game, he had a lot of trouble going by and around Dan and Obi, which I thought was notable. Like, there's a certain way to defend him that I just don't think he's 100% comfortable with the first step yet. Everything else is back. The rebounding's back, the passing's back. And he's just so much better than I thought he was gonna be. I was like, boy, it'd be nice if he was a rich man Sam Hauser. And it's like, this guy's one of the 10 best rebounders in the league already? And playing defense, and the passing, and

• 1:13:09Bill Simmons?

  and, you know, just is a really meaningful athlete to Boston fans and Celtic fans and at the games. And everyone's just really invested in this. So the longer it goes, I think it can be pretty special.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  It's the right pick. He would have been a good second banana pick, maybe, the way this year has gone, but it's the right category for him. I was gonna take him next round, but you taking him in this round allows me to make the most obvious pick, but load up my roster. Apex superstar, because I took Jokic for a legacy guy. Apex superstar, I'll just take SGA, just sitting there, low hanging fruit. I'll take him. Everything I said about Jokic, it legacy, what happens to him if he levels up? He's a, he's probably, I would say, going to win his second MVP. If he finishes that with back to back titles, breaking the league's no repeat streak and back to back finals MVPs. We're talking like I saw some tweets today, is he already one of the 25 best players in the league?

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  That conversation is going to go zoom in, in a different, is zooming higher than that. Uh, if, if this postseason goes that way. So, look, I got Jokic, I got SGA, I'm taking SGA, Apex, and there's no other category for him. This is the only category, I think, where he fits, so I'm taking him here.

• 1:14:21Bill Simmons?

  I just did my pyramid, I just updated it for the playoffs. And I have him in level four.

• 1:14:30Bill Simmons?

  And I have him 30th.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:34Bill Simmons?

  And I think that's the right area, but I think if they win a second title. And he's two time, back to back MVP, back to back titles, back to back finals MVPs, he's in the top 25 and that's it. It's not arguable, that's just where he ends up, because now we're talking about. Um, some real shit that only a handful of guys have done in the history of the league. Good pick, I have no notes. Um, I also think he could have been, if there, if there's a category of who, who could be dinged by these playoffs.

• 1:15:08Bill Simmons?

  That would have been an interesting one, like if he just sucks in the San Antonio series or, you know, there's some other outcomes, so there were like some Ivan Drago, the Russian or cut outcomes. Which you could feel a little bit over in December when they played the Spurs a couple of times, like huh. But, Dan, so, so if we have a seven foot five alien, we can stop this guy.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  But that's the only time you felt that way. And I just, I just never worry about him having a bad game. And even his bad games were like, oh, he shot eight for 21 and still got 10 free throws and finished with 29 points. And, and then you know, the next game, he's going to play, he just never has two bad games in a row. Defense is a constant, anyway, that's an obvious pick.

• 1:15:56Bill Simmons?

  I changed my mind on my MVP pick 230 times this weekend. Forgot to tell you.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Are you gonna finish that story or are you just gonna leave it hanging there?

• 1:16:06Bill Simmons?

  Still haven't decided.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:16:15Bill Simmons?

  This is for my weak link pick.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Oh, boy. You're getting negative.

• 1:16:21Bill Simmons?

  No, you know what? I'm gonna go hot seat wildcard.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm jealous because I have I'm gonna I have two guesses for who you're gonna pick and I'll just pick the other one later.

• 1:16:30Bill Simmons?

  De'Aaron Fox.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Oh, you went not coach. Okay.

• 1:16:35Bill Simmons?

  Went not coach.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:16:38Bill Simmons?

  Hot seat wildcard, De'Aaron Fox. Have talked about this on the pod in the past. Don't need to belabor it, but um, this is the guy to watch on this Spurs team as we start climbing levels and seeing how high they can go. Somebody who used to be one of the best clutch guys in the league, who had the offense running through him in the Kings, who now has to figure out when to pick his spots on this team with a seven foot six alien on it.

• 1:17:07Bill Simmons?

  And I there's been some signs, some uh oh signs for me watching them. If I like, if I'm a Spurs fan, the ball seems to find him a lot in big moments. I'm not always sure he's gonna deliver and

• 1:17:23Bill Simmons?

  I'm just really interested to see how it plays out because ultimately, when you go in these playoffs and you'll see it like when it's Hawks cat, when it's Hawks Knicks. Ultimately, that game's gonna come down to CJ versus Jalen Brunson, right? And if you're a Hawks fan and you're in these tight games with three minutes left, you're gonna have this epiphany where you're like, fuck, we have CJ who's a good player and they have Jalen Brunson who's second team all NBA. We're kind of at a disadvantage here. If Fox is the guy deciding offense for them, but now I'm going against Jokic or SGA, I just don't like my chances as much. And I think it's it's a lot of pressure for him. And he could be the lightning rod if things don't go well in a series, especially when we have 48, 48 hours, 72 hours between games.

• 1:18:07Bill Simmons?

  And he has like a three for 16, oh for six from three, game four, start of SportsCenter, start of all the shows, start of all the pods, what's up with De'Aaron Fox? Should they bench him? Just interested to see how it goes if it goes wrong and it might not go wrong.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, the should we bench him feels a little farfetched to me.

• 1:18:28Bill Simmons?

  In the podcast era? What are you talking about?

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Okay, fair.

• 1:18:32Bill Simmons?

  In the in the hot take studio show era, that that will absolutely be a topic.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  I'll just say this, like, I had him on the list for my candidates for the trade machine pick. The problem there being he has four years left on his contract after this at a gigantic number. I've actually been completely fine with how he's played this year. I dipping down to 33% from three is a little disappointing, given he started higher than that. I think he's just done a good job at fitting in and not forcing anything and gradually developing a better chemistry with Wemby. I don't think he's ever going to be tasked with, okay, man, now we need like, we need to run every offensive possession through you. It's crunch time. You were clutch player of the year two years ago, three years ago, whatever. I don't think this team is built like that, and that's fine. But he's being paid a salary of that level of player for many years going forward.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  And the Spurs, although they're thrilled to have this sort of like present All-Star De'Aaron Fox now, two young guards rising up behind him, nobody's overtaxed, the young guys don't have to do too much. At some point, that equation starts to wobble when the young guys get ready and expensive and it just it's only natural. And, you know, you just never know when the time is going to come. So he was on my list for that category, and I don't I don't disagree with a lot of your reasoning. I also just don't worry about him much in terms of like, underperforming.

• 1:19:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and from an aggregation standpoint. I I'm glass half full on Fox with this team. I'm just trying to look at if things start to go wrong, what would people point at? And that seems to be the one, but I. I actually like him on this team. And I think if they didn't have him, you would still want a guy like him, somebody who's a little older, somebody who's been in some situations. He's competitive. I think he's a, you know, he's a legitimately good point guard, and this is an awesome spot for him. They actually need him. They need him at the end of games, you know, that he's he's just got to figure out, how do I pick my spots? And how much do I take over? How much do I defer? And it's, I don't envy him because he'll be the lightning rod if it doesn't work out. All right, you're up.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  I'm deciding if I want to make a good pick or just an annoy you pick. And I think I'm gonna just annoy you.

• 1:20:45Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  And take Peyton Pritchard as my beloved bench guy, just so you can't have him. And, and, uh, and obviously he's been phenomenal all season, whether he started or come off the bench. His paint game, one on one game is reaching Paul Bunyan level proportions at this point. And he's massively important to arguably the best team in the Eastern Conference. So I will take him off the board for you.

• 1:21:09Bill Simmons?

  I was delighted that he had a really good Knicks game against a team that he has always sucked against. I thought that was weirdly important that he finally put one on the board because they're gonna definitely see him. All right, let's get crazy.

• 1:21:29Bill Simmons?

  My next pick is Jalen Williams.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 1:21:36Bill Simmons?

  J-Dub.

• 1:21:40Bill Simmons?

  Uh, you know what? I'm not gonna get that crazy. Nah, fuck it. I'm gonna take him as my trade machine guy.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 1:21:52Bill Simmons?

  Just for fun, just for shits and giggles, just because.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  It's not just for fun. Don't do that. You got something brewing in your head.

• 1:22:01Bill Simmons?

  OKC has a lot of money to, to spend over these next couple of years. And I just, sometimes I wonder, like, if, if it doesn't work out for them this year, how does that play out? And I also couldn't think of another place to put him because I didn't want him as my second banana.

• 1:22:17Bill Simmons?

  Look, he's looked good lately. I don't think there's a lot to worry about here. But I also think it's gonna be really hard to have three max guys, plus Kason Wallace, plus all these draft picks. And I do wonder, like, if you're gonna take a huge swing, what, what is, what does that look like? Now, if they win the title again, they're not trading anybody, but who knows?

• 1:22:38Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying to loosen the draft.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  Well, look, there's a reason why I have.

• 1:22:42Bill Simmons?

  It's like a stool softener pick. I'm just loosening things up.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  My, there's a reason my trade machine list is loaded with guys on the Thunder that are not J. Dub, but are like Dort and, you know, Wallace and A.J. Mitchell, just guys that, you know, they can fling around the league. I'm not going to go to that category now. I'm going to go chalk in in my second banana category for reasons that need not, not to be elaborated on at all. I will pick Carl Anthony Towns is my second banana intriguing for the playoffs. Team is built to win now. Team fired its coach despite its first conference finals appearance in forever. Up and down season. He seems to be the subject of a team wide existential crisis every two weeks. Has actually finished strong enough that I would put him third team

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  All-NBA right now. His defense has been, it's been a pretty solid defensive couple of months for him. And you just know that by game, maybe by game two of the first round, there we will have an existential crisis of like, why did he only take four shots in the last three quarters of that game? Or why are they not running the Brunson Towns pick and roll enough, which they've been running a lot lately? And we, we shall see how it goes against the Hawks. But he, he's had ups and downs in the playoffs, to say the least. I think he's turned some corners in that regard over the last couple of years and got a little more consistent, made some huge shots last year along the way. But he's still one of the

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  more enigmatic second banana types in the league, and I'm proud to have him on my roster.

• 1:24:15Bill Simmons?

  You and I both know a lot of Knicks fans and you live in Connecticut, so you're around them. Probably 50% of texts I get from Knicks fans are about Towns. But sometimes like positive, like excited that they think Towns, good things are happening with Towns. He's figured it out.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  I think this Atlanta matchup, I think this Atlanta matchup is a, is a good matchup for him. I don't think it's a great matchup for the Knicks relative to what they could have drawn. But it'll be interesting to see how the Hawks guard him, but if they guard him like they guarded him the last time they played last week. It's a good matchup for him and the Knicks should lean into his offense more. So I'm optimistic. This is an optimistic, hopeful pick of Cat.

• 1:24:59Bill Simmons?

  I am a, I need to get this guy off the board before you take him. It's a little early. And I'm taking him for third banana, but I also think he's super intriguing for these playoffs because I think he's a ceiling changer.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  I think you're gonna take my guy.

• 1:25:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I sure am. You can say hi to him in Denver right now.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Oh, it is. Oh, no.

• 1:25:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yes. Um, he's the superpower of this Denver team. He looks like he's back and you could, and Jokic physically looks like he's back.

• 1:25:36Bill Simmons?

  And I think this might be the most healthy they've had all three of those guys at the same time playing well. That I can remember it since they won the title. So for, that was three years ago.

• 1:25:52Bill Simmons?

  He's just, it feels like he just gets slightly better every year. And there's been guys like this over NBA history that just as they get older, they age like a fine wine. And he's one of them. I just feel like every year he's gotten 5% better. So that's my third banana pick.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  I mean, needless to say, he was my number one choice for this category and I've almost already taken him twice and I'm angry that you took him. I'm glad I got Peyton Pritchard. Maybe I'll start just take, maybe I'll just make a run of Celtics despite you.

• 1:26:19Bill Simmons?

  Maybe just get resentful. All right, who do you got?

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  Maybe I'll take Ugo now is my defensive stud just to, just to spite you. I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not doing that. Um, let's see, let's see, let's.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go back to back bananas.

• 1:26:38Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  And for my third banana, I will go back to back Knicks. I guess one could argue if he's the true third banana. But the other noisy Nick dialogue is all about McHale Bridges because of the five first round picks because of the like last six weeks where it's like, did he not crack double figures again?

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  And just they need him to be not only a more reliable scorer, but a more, when they're flowing, he's just more involved in the offense, both as a secondary ball handler, as like a, a playmaker in open space. He's just more involved and they're going to need that version of him. And just like Kat, if they don't get it, like just in general, if this playoffs goes poorly for the Knicks, if they lose to the Hawks in the first round, which is not is impossible. If they lose to Boston in the second round, there'd be no shame in that, right? Like Boston's been the best team in the East for the last 40 games. It's a good matchup for the Knicks, but there certainly be no shame in it. However, there would certainly be like an organization wide stain of

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  we fired the coach into this really dramatic stuff and took and are out around earlier. And we traded five first round picks for this guy and Yanis is still sitting out there. I just feel like there's going to be a lot of McHale Bridges noise. And so he's going to be, you know, and an Obie could be a third banana for them. I'm taking McHale Bridges.

• 1:28:04Bill Simmons?

  Interesting. I feel like Ananobe is their third banana, but maybe in the playoffs it becomes Bridges. I don't know. I guess they're both third bananas. Maybe they maybe they're on that team. They're both third bananas. I guess it'd be fair.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  That's the sometimes real and sometimes theoretical strength of the Knicks is they just have a lot of very good players. And he's one of them. He's certainly given the ball handling load he showed he could take in Brooklyn is sort of more tailor made for like a banana 2.5 kind of role that he just hasn't played enough for them. So you can tell that I'm just, the Knicks are just the most interesting puzzle to me in the NBA. Them or the Cavs. And so it's not a coincidence that I've drafted two Knicks.

• 1:28:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's also their storylines with them that include they haven't won the title since 1973.

• 1:28:53Bill Simmons?

  They are looming as a semi blow it up team. They're looming as a Yanis possible destination. They're looming as a possible Donovan Mitchell destination. They're looming as just a destination. I'm prepared for anything with the Knicks if they lose in round one or round two. I, listen, you started out really well in this draft. And the board has just been breaking for me perfectly ever since. And

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  You don't like my Knicks picks?

• 1:29:21Bill Simmons?

  No, I do. I'm just excited that you left this guy on the board for me. For the hot seat coach category. Ime Adoka. I have not been impressed by the coaching of this team this year. The chemistry doesn't seem great. I think the offense has just been bizarre. I don't understand why they had, why Ime hasn't just said, I have to sink or swim with Reed Shepard because I don't have Fred Van Vliet and it's going to be impossible to win even two straight rounds without a real point guard. And he's just doing it his way.

• 1:30:03Bill Simmons?

  They put a staggering amount of miles and minutes on Amen Thompson, who led the league in minutes this year. And Kevin Durant, who's 37 years old, who I think was like seventh in minutes.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  They, no, they were

• 1:30:17Bill Simmons?

  And they're hard minutes.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  They were one, two, the last time I checked.

• 1:30:21Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Jesus. Hard minutes.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Like total minutes.

• 1:30:25Bill Simmons?

  Right. It's not like he, Kevin Durant's running to the corner and just setting up shop, watching other people on the play. He's dribbling the ball up against people like Jaden McDaniels and shit like that. I don't understand half the shit this team has done all season. And, uh, I don't understand the Reed Shepard thing at all. I don't care if he's weak for you on defense. You're putting miles and unnecessary crunch time issues on your team. And it's like, you took Reed Shepard third. Either, either he, he has something or he doesn't, but you have to find out this year. You're not winning the title. So I, I just don't understand it. And I would be very unsurprised if he was not their coach next year.

• 1:31:09Bill Simmons?

  Remember for this category, last year I took Tom Thibodeau.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  You did.

• 1:31:11Bill Simmons?

  And you did a triple take backwards. And I was proven correct.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  I think they're they've backed into it. Not that they've won nine out of 10. They haven't backed into anything, but they have a good first round matchup. And I think if they win a playoff series and play a pretty honestly competitive second round playoff series, despite all the offensive infrastructure stuff that we spent all year talking about the crunch time disasters and whatever with Van Fleet injured and Finney Smith being a complete nothing, I think they

• 1:31:41Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  they would walk him. And I think they'd be fine giving you may another year. It's it's a it's not a completely off the wall pick.

• 1:31:49Bill Simmons?

  What if what if they lose to LeBron and the Lakers in round one in a series that Luka Doncic plays two games?

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  Or or no games. And by the way, would there be would there be with, I mean, Eme is trash talk LeBron multiple times in games. I feel like he kind of wants to fight LeBron.

• 1:32:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Like he just there's there's something there. And if they're losing, who the hell knows? It's not it's it's

• 1:32:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that could be the first.

• 1:32:19Bill Simmons?

  If if he may came off the the two guys that could come off the bench and actually get into a fight with a player him and Joe Missoula. I think Joe Missoula, it's anytime there's any sort of an altercation, I always worry. But this happened in 1975 in the finals when Al Al Adels came off the bench and fought Mike Reardon and got ejected, by the way. Okay, you're up.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  I'm so excited. The leap, the leap.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  I could take this guy in multiple categories. I have a feel good star that I want to take in that category, but you've already filled that category, I believe. So I don't know. I'm strategically shoving this pick down the road.

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  I know you wish you had this guy on your roster. So I'll take him in the leap category. Steph Castle will be my will be my leap guy. And I'll just pin him in.

• 1:33:11Bill Simmons?

  Damn it.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  I don't even need to explain it. The guy's might, he's might be like my favorite non top 10 player in the league to watch. I just, everything about him is insanely entertaining to watch. And I know one thing, can nitpick his shooting, nitpick his turnovers, can't nitpick his passing, can't nitpick his assist passing, can't nitpick his paint scoring. Yeah, one thing I know for sure is that dude is not afraid of anything that's about to hit them into playoffs. He wants all of it. He's not afraid of any player. He's not afraid of any opponent. He's not afraid of any scheme. He's not afraid of having a, oh, he shot, he started 0 for 8 in his first career playoff game. Is he gonna get rattled? No, no, he's not. So he's my leap guy.

• 1:33:56Bill Simmons?

  I spent a half hour making sure it wasn't absurd to put him on third team all NBA and the answer was it's not. I would encourage anyone questioning whether he should be on an all NBA team with all the guys that are now missing. See him in person once. It, it all makes sense if you see him in person. I didn't, and I count league pass too, because I watched a lot of Spurs this year because of Wemby. I never saw that guy take a split second off. Even today in that Denver game, there was a stretch where he was just getting offensive rebounds with, they were surrounded by all these taller guys and he just kept jumping up over people and getting offensive rebounds and giving them to people. I love Steph Castle. That's a really good pick. I did have him.

• 1:34:45Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:34:53Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:34:55Bill Simmons?

  Gonna have to do it.

• 1:34:58Bill Simmons?

  You did this last year, so I don't feel like I'm cheating. And if you want me to just confine it to one player, that's fine.

• 1:35:05Speaker 01

  No, do, do what you want to do.

• 1:35:10Bill Simmons?

  This is for the crossroads guy.

• 1:35:15Bill Simmons?

  And again, they might not even be in the playoffs for all we know. But I'm taking Palo and I'd like to really take him with Franz.

• 1:35:26Bill Simmons?

  Just because I feel like if this week goes badly for Orlando. I do not think these two guys will be teammates next year and they will just have to make some hard decisions. I think this is a stealth Yanis team. I think it's a stealth, hey Sacramento, you give us the fourth pick in the draft and we'll give you Palo. Let's, let's dance.

• 1:35:49Bill Simmons?

  I'm just prepared for anything with this, but I think they would have to take a hard look at whether it makes sense to build a team around these two guys together.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  I think they already probably have and are doing it pending, not even pending the playoffs. I had him, I was going to take him in my trade machine pick for all the reasons you outlined. I'm fine with you can have both him and Franz. He was a little too young for me in the crossroads category. And it's always, by the way, Palo has always shown up big in the playoffs. And I think that's one of the good, it's one of the interesting reasons to take him here. After a pretty spotty regular season, the last couple of months have been better than the ones that came before it. Fit with Franz is still kind of TBD, but on under manned teams, that dude is always showing up. And not just in a like, oh, he had to take 30 shots and he got a pretty inefficient 35 points. Like he's showing up on both ends of the floor and played pretty well.

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  And that guy is still in there. Obviously, so it's, it's a good pick and I had him on my, my trade list.

• 1:36:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because they could lose to Philly and they could lose to Charlotte and be out of the playoffs on Friday night. And at that point, the wheels on the trade machine will come off. All right, you're up.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  It's time for another spite pick.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  I contemplated him for leap.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  Defensive stud. I will take Derrick White.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  Another one of my favorite players to watch in the league. Unrelenting, makes every decision correctly. Would have been in my all NBA conversation had he shot the ball a little better. I saw Pino put him on. I just don't think you can put a guard who takes this many threes and doesn't make enough of them on an all NBA team, even with all these guys missing. But he's on the fringes of the conversation and I think if he shot 39% from three or something, I think he's that good at everything else. And just an all time great defensive guard for a team that again, has legit finals ambitions.

• 1:37:47Bill Simmons?

  Do you have him first team, LD?

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  I do not have him second team.

• 1:37:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. It's funny because this is an intriguing draft. And I think he belongs in the draft for the reasons you just mentioned, but also because much like the Aaron Fox on the Spurs, he could be the guy that sinks the Celtics if he can't make a shot. Cause it'll hit a point, a little like 2022 where teams are just gonna leave him open if they don't think it's going in. It hasn't been that bad, but it's been veering toward the vicinity of, hey, we're gonna actually have to see you make two before we start flying out at you.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  I heard you talking about this with legs. And I am on like team Missoula about this. I'm not worried. And if you want to leave him open, I'm thrilled that you're gonna leave him open. And I want him to take all the shots.

• 1:38:39Bill Simmons?

  I'm not worried either, but I'm a tiny bit worried.

• 1:38:43Bill Simmons?

  Just a little bit. A little, a whiff word.

• 1:38:49Bill Simmons?

  All right. He's still on the board. I can't believe I can get him with this kind of value this late as my legacy guy. I'll happily take Jalen Brunson here.

• 1:39:04Bill Simmons?

  So.

• 1:39:07Bill Simmons?

  This broke.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  It's a fantastic pick.

• 1:39:11Bill Simmons?

  This broke pretty nicely for them. They get to play Toronto, round one.

• 1:39:17Bill Simmons?

  Which.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  No, they play the Hawks.

• 1:39:19Bill Simmons?

  Atlanta.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  They play the Hawks.

• 1:39:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that part didn't break. That part didn't break nicely for them. Actually, it didn't break nicely for them. I take it back. I recant that comment. Um, but they go Atlanta, round one, and then Boston, round two. He's got a ton of confidence against Boston. He's got a ton of confidence against everybody.

• 1:39:36Bill Simmons?

  He's a beloved New Yorker. He's done a lot for the team. They came within two wins of the finals last year. I don't know how many more swings at the apple you're gonna get. You have a one seed Detroit team that's pretty young. You have a two seed Boston. That you feel like you can beat because you beat them last year. And this is about as good of a chance as you're gonna get. San Antonio. Not quite San Antonio yet. Wemby next year is gonna be more frightening. OKC will be the same. Denver, probably the best they're gonna be.

• 1:40:09Bill Simmons?

  It's a really nice moment for him. He's second team All-NBA. I don't think he will be a top five MVP. Do you?

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:40:18Bill Simmons?

  I don't. Do you think he could sneak fifth place? I don't think he will.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:40:23Bill Simmons?

  And I think he's kind of settled into people have an opinion on him and they think he is what he is, but I think. He's somebody that can go toe to toe with every great player in the league and we'll see. Legacy guy.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  I think it's a great pick and it's, it's a great pick particularly because he's a Nick and because of what. Conversations he's already in like this. Every week there's a new, is he already the greatest Nick since X or could he be the greatest Nick ever? Is he already a better Nick than this guy? If he takes them to the finals. There's gonna be Ewing compared. There's just gonna be a lot of like Ewing, obviously had incredible longevity. You got these guys from the seventies and all that, but like there's just because he's a Nick. All the legacy talk feels like doubly important and noisy.

• 1:41:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, especially because they're all sitting courtside at the games. He's had a taste of it because they've had success in the playoffs the last couple of years. And you can see how the entire city mobilizes behind the team when they're playing well. And he's the focal point of it. So there you go. Okay, you're up.

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  I have a lot of the negative categories yet, and I'm not, I don't want to go there yet. Especially since you've left me, a guy who doesn't fit anywhere else other than has to be mentioned. And so you know who has to be mentioned? Jalen Brown has to be mentioned, the guy who is going to be in the top five of the MVP and probably be first team all NBA and set the tone for a Celtics team that was not going to accept pessimists like me saying gap year, under 41 and a half, whatever. And has been all too happy to talk about that. And, and now the playoffs are here and Jason Tatum's back. And I'm just fascinated to see how Boston continues to evolve with the guy who was their undisputed best player. Now back in the lineup with Jalen Brown coming off.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  An incredible regular season where he leveled up in a lot of, to degrees in different categories that, as you've said, you don't normally see guys in year 10 leveling up this much in his passing, this much in his dribbling, this much in his steadiness, this much in his decision making. Now the bigger stage is here and there's going to be not scrutiny, but just sort of curiosity of like, okay. Now you're facing the best teams, the best defenses, game planning for you, Jason Tatum's back. How, how does it all look? And so I, I don't have another category to take him in. He's got to be taken. I'll take him in my must be mentioned category.

• 1:42:44Bill Simmons?

  So you're taking him in bonus guy who must be mentioned?

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:42:48Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:42:49Speaker 01

  Cause I don't have any other place to, to take him and I get to steal them from you.

• 1:42:53Bill Simmons?

  It's interesting. I thought you might take him in the leap.

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  Well, I took Castle already.

• 1:43:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:01Speaker 01

  The leap already, the leap kind of, I mean, I don't know. This, I don't know where else to take them, so I'm going to take them here. And boy, does he deserve to be mentioned. He's been one of the half dozen best stories, biggest stories, most important stories of this entire season.

• 1:43:17Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to take a.

• 1:43:20Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my feel good star is gone. Damn it. I already took a feel good.

• 1:43:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that really complicates things for me.

• 1:43:30Bill Simmons?

  Well.

• 1:43:32Bill Simmons?

  Oh, man.

• 1:43:36Bill Simmons?

  Looks like I have to do second banana.

• 1:43:41Bill Simmons?

  And I get to take one of my favorite guys this season. Somebody I've really thoroughly enjoyed. You took Steph Castle for me that I would have put in this category. Uh, I'm gonna take Jalen Dern of the Detroit Pistons. Who? I think I'm going to vote for second team NBA.

• 1:44:03Bill Simmons?

  I think he has been.

• 1:44:07Bill Simmons?

  You mentioned Jalen before, and I think Jalen Dern's like this too. I think when we only go stats. And advanced stats, when you're looking at somebody's case for whatever, and you're not also talking about.

• 1:44:21Bill Simmons?

  The stuff you can feel when you're watching a season, the nuances of a season. I think to me that Jalen Brown, Jalen Dern are the two guys I think go for this and Castle to some degree too. Jalen Brown, there's all kinds of stats where you can be like, the on off, it's not as good. And if you didn't actually watch the season, you didn't understand how important it was that he scored. Jalen Brown scored 35 points, 30 points, I think 35 times this year. And he repeatedly guarded the other best guy on the other team and just showed up night after night after night. Where this weird team that they had with no Tatum. And you never knew if Pritchard was gonna show up offensively or if White or one of the wings. But you always kind of knew Jalen was gonna be there. There's 30 points and his 12 free throw attempts and his nine two points.

• 1:45:06Bill Simmons?

  And there's something to be said for that. Dern is the same thing for me. Night after night, this guy is 20 and 10. He's one of the physical, most scary guys in the league. There's an intensity to him that he has that I think the team feeds off. And I think, I think other than Cade, he's the guy on this team that they, they, he's the emotional fulcrum. And I think he's gotten better as the year went along too. Do you, do you feel that way? Do you feel like he's gotten a little better offensively as the year has gone?

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Well, especially, especially without Cade, when they needed him to get, to get 20 every night. Some nights he got 25, some nights he got 30. I think he's a very intriguing player because he's still so young. I think he's still 22 or 23 years old. There are still occasional hiccups with him on defense in terms of his positioning and his angles, but he can make up for a lot of it with just sheer athleticism. That's going to be tested. I've had a couple of scouts kind of just say, I have a little skepticism with his offensive game and how it will survive in the playoffs because he seems to sometimes operate on the knife's edge of risk, of turnovers, of thread the needle passes of is that dribble move really going to work? And they're curious to see how it holds up against elite defenses who are a little bit more focused on him.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  I would be optimistic. I think he should be an absolute lock for all NBA. I'd have him third team. I wouldn't really argue too strongly if you put him second team. But he should be like, he should be a lock and he'd be a lock. Even if Luca and Ant were both eligible, he would still make my third team. So he's a great pick.

• 1:46:40Bill Simmons?

  And the thing, the reason why both Jalen's are fun for the intriguing draft because they're both intriguing. Jalen's going to be intriguing for all the, who's going to have the ball at the end of the game? Can he continue to stay at this level, Jalen Brown? And then Duran, it's like, okay, you guys are number one seed. You looked awesome in the regular season. Can you now go up like 8% in the playoffs? Can you now be like a 20 and 14 guy, 22 and 14? Can you do this night after night? Can you stay out of foul trouble? Can you keep that physicality without losing your temper and shit like that?

• 1:47:15Bill Simmons?

  All right, you're up again. We're running out of categories.

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll just take the low hanging fruit and be quick. I'll just take Mosley for hot seat coach. We already talked about it. It's an obvious pick. Someone has to do it.

• 1:47:27Bill Simmons?

  I like it.

• 1:47:29Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I put that in the hot seat wildcard accidentally. Okay. I got rid of both of my hot seats already.

• 1:47:37Bill Simmons?

  Man, there's some good guys that we haven't taken yet, including this next guy. Who, let me see if I have a spot for him.

• 1:47:48Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:47:55Bill Simmons?

  Put him here.

• 1:47:58Bill Simmons?

  I'll put him in a my bonus guy who has to be mentioned. Anthony Edwards.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  He depends mentioning, that's for damn sure.

• 1:48:08Bill Simmons?

  Just, it's just, I didn't even really expect to take him here, but I just, we've gone too far without him being in there. A couple intriguing things about him. Is he 100% healthy? Can he beat Denver again? And have this like crazy, um, you know, fairly successful run against a, a pretty great Nuggets team over the years. What happens if he can play OKC in a series? What happens if he gets going against Wemby in a series? Every sort of outcome with Anthony Edwards in any round is intriguing and fun. We'll see if he's 100%. I've heard he's close to 100%, but not 100.

• 1:48:49Speaker 01

  He was also sick. That was part of the reason why I missed a couple of these games. He was, he was like quite ill and it wasn't just the knee soreness or whatever he was up with. Yeah, I, I know one thing that'll happen, like if there's one guy who's actually going to try to dunk on Wemba Yama. It's him.

• 1:49:02Bill Simmons?

  And talk shit and talk shit about the French and God only knows with him. Okay, we're almost done.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Trade machine guy. I've got a number of candidates. I could go boring, like Cam Johnson salary dump to re-sign Peyton Watson. I could go whatever. I'll go Julius Randall as my trade machine guy.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  Has had a shaky last six weeks or so. The world knows they were going through whatever machinations would have been necessary to try to get involved in Yanis. I mean, there's just almost no way he wouldn't be part of some multi-team trade in that scenario. He was awesome in the playoffs last year, played the best basketball of his life in the playoffs last year. And if they are going to be the team that they think they can be, they got to get out of their own way in a number of ways. And one of those things is, is him. And if not, who knows? So I'll take Julius Randall.

• 1:49:53Bill Simmons?

  I have no notes. I'm going to go right to my weak link. And I make this pick.

• 1:50:01Bill Simmons?

  I'd like to make the point, this is not a character assassination. I've been really impressed by how he's played this year. I'm just judging it based on history, reputation, and whether he can shed some of that reputation. But also, some of the situations he's been in this season where his team, which is really good, has really needed him to all of a sudden like, whoa, our lead's down to one. Can you create a really good shot for us? And that man is Tobias Harris.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Wow.

• 1:50:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Will he remain a playoff weak link? Or will he shed the weak link label? Because all I know is watching this Pistons team, the ball seems to find him in big spots. And we've seen in the regular season, that's fine. In the playoffs, it's usually not. But I can promise that if you're a Pistons fan, you've had this conversation with yourself. Like, man, we really needed that 17-foot fallaway from Tobias on the baseline to squeeze out that win. Is that going to be happening in round one, round two? We'll see.

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  Well, he's especially important during the non-kid minutes for them. He plays almost all the non-kid minutes for this reason. Like, hey, at the very least, the floor of our possession is a 15-foot turnaround in the post from Tobias Harris.

• 1:51:21Bill Simmons?

  And not a lot of shot creation on that Pistons team. Although Jenkins has gotten better. All right, you're up.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  He's been great. Tobias has been the heart, like one of the heart and soul guys on that team, a vet. They love him. I just, saying all that, I didn't think he was high profile enough to fit that category.

• 1:51:39Bill Simmons?

  Oh, a critique of my draft.

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  I mean, look, weak link, I could go.

• 1:51:45Bill Simmons?

  This is the number one seed, the third best player, the guy who takes big shots for them.

• 1:51:51Speaker 01

  Is he the third, is he the third best player?

• 1:51:53Bill Simmons?

  He's not. Well, I guess Asar Thompson is. So fourth best player. All right, fine.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  I mean, weak link. I contemplated a whole bunch of guys. Your guy.

• 1:52:02Bill Simmons?

  Are you gonna take one?

• 1:52:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm gonna take a loop. I'll do a weak.

• 1:52:06Bill Simmons?

  You're ragging at me on Tobias Harris. You're taking Vucevic?

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  I contemplated. Of course, I contemplated Aiden, as we all would.

• 1:52:15Bill Simmons?

  No, he doesn't. He's just a permanent weak link. He's not intriguing. I'm not intrigued to see if he won't be a weak link.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go intriguing and weak link, a more high wattage player, could have been a trade machine player.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  I just, I'd like to see Jalen Green again in the playoffs. And can we just get a redo on the Warriors disaster from last year? He hasn't played much this year. They plugged him right back in as a full-time starter, and he's basically just being Jalen Green, which has taken a lot of shots and not making enough of them. And decision-making is a little bit better. He's had a few nice passes on the pick and roll lately that I think are level-up passes for him, but it's just, it's very inconsistent. His contract is super tradable. And I could see him shooting them out of a play-in game or a playoff game. And also, like, the one game they won, or one of the, I'm sorry, the one of the games they won, the one game he played really well last year against the Warriors,

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  it was because he just went crazy. I just think we haven't seen if that, is this really the right fit for him with Booker? And, and maybe we'll learn a little bit more in the playoffs.

• 1:53:24Bill Simmons?

  That's pretty good.

• 1:53:26Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:53:29Bill Simmons?

  Oh, man.

• 1:53:33Bill Simmons?

  There's a guy I really want to take here, but I feel like it's a waste of a pick.

• 1:53:39Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna do it. I feel the same way about this guy that I did about the guy I took last year. I don't think it's gonna work out the same for his team.

• 1:53:50Bill Simmons?

  For the leap.

• 1:53:53Bill Simmons?

  Tyrese Maxey.

• 1:53:56Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if this will happen. But if you're just looking at the playoffs and saying, which guy could completely change his narrative in a month and a half?

• 1:54:08Bill Simmons?

  I took Haliburton a year ago because I thought the Pacers had a legitimate chance to win a round or two, and I liked how he was playing, and I liked that team. I don't like the Sixers team as much.

• 1:54:22Bill Simmons?

  But if they're in a 2-7 matchup against the Celtics,

• 1:54:27Bill Simmons?

  I think he would go toe-to-toe with the Celtics for two weeks. And all the Celtic fans would be terrified of him and relieved that to get rid of him by the end of this series. If he goes against Detroit, same thing. I actually think he has another gear in him. He's great at home. The fans really believe in him. Like, he's a guy that could just go for 36 a game in the playoffs or some crazy thing. I could see it. So I had to have him somewhere in this draft and I'm taking him.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  He was sensational the last time we saw him in the playoffs, two years ago against the Knicks. 30 a game, seven assists. Bunch of huge dagger shots, including one that I believe won game five for them.

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  I can't remember off the top of my head what game it was. On the one hand, I want to say, can a guy who almost averaged 29 points a game make a leap? But without Embiid, it could definitely make a leap in terms of just his, his standing in the league if he has a series like you're describing. Which is totally on the table, totally on the table.

• 1:55:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this is an, I'm carrying a team by myself to a giant upset. And I think this is the right point of his career. I also like, there's something about that dude. You're up 10 against Philly and he'll just score 10 points in like 90 seconds. It was just like, oh my God, what just happened? We're up 10.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  He and Donovan Mitchell are like that. They might be the two scariest guys in the league when their teams are down 12 with 90 seconds left and you're about to check out of the game. They just go insane. Okay, feel-good star. I'll do it. I'll just take my feel-good star. Easy pick. I've been just biding my time on this one. LaMelo Ball.

• 1:56:10Bill Simmons?

  I almost took him for leap and I didn't have the balls.

• 1:56:14Speaker 01

  No pun intended. He is a textbook, central casting, feel-good, the narrative turn, all the way around. And let's, let's capitalize on it now in a playing game or two.

• 1:56:27Bill Simmons?

  And let's get him away, Mo.

• 1:56:32Bill Simmons?

  Beloved.

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  At what point are the mellow driving jokes gonna expire? Are we almost there?

• 1:56:42Bill Simmons?

  Never.

• 1:56:43Speaker 01

  It's the hard part is that driving is a part of his game. And so you're just gonna say it all the time and it's gonna always conjure up that image.

• 1:56:53Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:56:57Bill Simmons?

  I have to bang out beloved bench guy. I have to bang out defensive stud.

• 1:57:04Bill Simmons?

  And those are my last two categories.

• 1:57:09Bill Simmons?

  So. Beloved bench guy.

• 1:57:16Bill Simmons?

  Had him in Boston once upon a time.

• 1:57:19Bill Simmons?

  I think he's going to play an important role in a long Spurs playoff series because I am dubious of Wemby staying completely healthy for 10 straight weeks. And this team's pretty good when he plays. The one and only Luke Cornet. I thought one of the best signings of the offseason. They don't, they obviously lose a ton when Wemby's not in there. But it's not a catastrophe. And if anything, like it's kind of fun when Luke Cornet's in there and he gives them a different look. And I wonder if they would even play him and Wemby together from time to time against a big lineup. Would you ever see that happening?

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, French vanilla was the thing for a while. It hasn't been much of a thing lately, but you need all your things in the playoffs. You need all your, you need, that's the great thing about the playoffs. If you're gonna go a long way, you need every tool in the toolbox to come out at some point.

• 1:58:14Bill Simmons?

  All right, so you have one pick left and it is your hot seat wildcard.

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:58:24Bill Simmons?

  I just want to mention, we've done this entire draft and nobody took Curry or LeBron.

• 1:58:31Speaker 01

  Okay, I mean, there

• 1:58:32Bill Simmons?

  Or Kawhi.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  I mean, LeBron is

• 1:58:34Bill Simmons?

  Or Devin Booker. Or Luka Doncic.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  It's a deep league. What do you want me? Lucas hurt, LeBron's carrying a team that is not quite drawing dead, but is in major trouble with all the injuries. Curry's on the 10th seed. I mean, it's intriguing. I'm not, I know exactly who Steph Curry is. He's amazing. I just don't think there's going to be a lot of like Golden State Warriors playoff games. Here are my candidates for wild card hot seat.

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  For coaches, Chris Finch and Kenny Atkinson. I think they're wonderful coaches. And I don't think anything bad should happen to either of them. But I just know how owners are when bad things happen in the playoffs. And we'll see on both of them. I think they're awesome coaches. I'll go off the beaten path though for this, and I just wanted to say their names. I'll go off the beaten path for this. Off the beaten, because this is the off the beaten path hot seat category. I'm going to go Zachary Rieschay, who was recently benched by the Atlanta Hawks. And is the former number one pick in a draft that happened not that long ago. And would be potentially a must have ingredient in any massive, the Hawks did what? Where? Who's on the Hawks now? Kind of trade?

• 1:59:47Speaker 01

  And it's like, hey, look, man, Reed Shepard's come along. Alex Sar kind of played fake basketball for 50 games. He's pretty good. Castle's a stud. Klingon is becoming a stud. Like, like, there's a lot going on in your draft class.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  Can we get something? And you're young. You're 21 years old. It's not fair. But whenever a team is like, you know what? I think we're just better off with Corey Kispert getting some of your minutes and you're just not going to play. It's, it's not great. It's not great. So I'll go Rieschay.

• 2:00:22Bill Simmons?

  Who did you make fun of me for? Cause I took Tobias Harris.

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  Off the beaten path, off the beaten path. Who was your off the beaten path hot seat guy? Right, De'Aaron Fox. Okay, that's a better pick than mine.

• 2:00:33Bill Simmons?

  Last pick. I, this is the last pick of the draft. I only have defensive stud left. Apologies to Donovan Klingon. I did think about you here. Especially if it's a, if it's somehow, is there any? It could potentially be Portland, San Antonio, right?

• 2:00:52Speaker 01

  He's up, yeah, he's on my list for defensive stud. Yeah.

• 2:00:55Bill Simmons?

  A Donovan Klingon, Wemby battle would be really fun. I thought about Dyson Daniels here. Trying to chase around Jalen Brunson.

• 2:01:07Bill Simmons?

  And I'm not taking neither of those guys. And I'm not taking Rudy Gobert either because I don't want Rudy on my team.

• 2:01:13Speaker 01

  Wow, that was, talk about uncalled for. Oh my God.

• 2:01:18Bill Simmons?

  Just don't want him on my team. This guy, I think, is the most intriguing guy left that we haven't taken. Because I think they would need him to beat Boston in round two.

• 2:01:31Bill Simmons?

  And I thought what he did to Tatum the other night alarmed me a little bit as a Celtic fan. Cause I thought Tatum had a lot of trouble with them. I have him as a second team all defense. I think you can make a case if your life depended on the game and you wanted five defenders out there. He might be one of the five. OG Anunoby.

• 2:01:50Bill Simmons?

  There's a certain type of guy that he's just awesome at guarding. And if he's really locked in and it's, it's basically any scoring wing. It's Durant, it's Tatum, it's Jalen Brown. He's just, he's big, he's physical, he knows all the moves, he gets right in your chest. And I think if they beat the Boston Celtics in round two, I think it would be him. And I think it'd be Jalen Brunson would be the two reasons.

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  He was definitely on my, my list for defensive stud. I kind of took Derrick White just to be mean to you. I love OG Anunoby. I flip flopped him on first and second team all defense four times in the past two weeks. I think I'm going to end up with him on second team all defense. But like you said, his physicality and his strength, the combination of strength and quickness is extremely rare. He can guard every kind of player. He's guarded Embiid in playoff games before. Like he's just that special.

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  A lot, all the, all the key Knicks.

• 2:02:46Bill Simmons?

  About all defenses.

• 2:02:49Bill Simmons?

  Right, got taken.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:52Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna say, a good, a good way to think about all defenses, if you're a guy on the other team, how high on the, oh shit, this guy, how high are you on that ranking for the different players in the league? Like, I think point guards are like, they see OKC and they're like, Kason Wallace, fuck.

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  How about the whole, the whole team? Caruso, Caruso didn't get drafted for the door.

• 2:03:21Bill Simmons?

  I know. Yeah. Apologies to all those guys. We also didn't draft Curry, LeBron. I thought there was a CJ McCollum case.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  He was in my, my feel-good star category.

• 2:03:34Bill Simmons?

  Kawhi Leonard, Devin Booker did not get drafted.

• 2:03:38Bill Simmons?

  Mike Brown, Luka Doncic.

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  Durant.

• 2:03:40Bill Simmons?

  And Jalen Johnson.

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  Durant.

• 2:03:43Bill Simmons?

  And Durant.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  I almost took Durant, I almost took Durant for legacy just because, I mean, we've almost talked it to death over the years of just like, the Coda to his career, this, all the twists and turns post-leaving OKC, what a Houston playoff run would mean. I just don't think this particular team has a long playoff run in them, but.

• 2:04:04Bill Simmons?

  You know what? It's not like there are rules for this. Let's add a category, Coda guy.

• 2:04:11Bill Simmons?

  You want Durant, I'll give you Durant.

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just, I just, you just made it up and I already took a guy, so I'll take him.

• 2:04:18Bill Simmons?

  All right, so you have Kevin Durant as a Coda guy.

• 2:04:23Bill Simmons?

  Durant. And that means I can take, just so we can have him in the draft, Steph Curry.

• 2:04:34Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, LeBron would have been an acceptable pick here as well. Steph Curry, winning two straight playing games, going against OKC and doing the Denzel Washington last 40 minutes man on fire, I'm just gonna take on an entire drug cartel and see if I can survive and I'm gonna die, but you're gonna have a good time if this is happening. I think I would be in there. All right, recap of the draft.

• 2:04:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:04:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, let's see. We took 32.

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  The people can vote.

• 2:05:02Bill Simmons?

  Apex superstar. I have Wemby, you have SGA. Beloved bench guy. I have Luke Cornet, you have Peyton Pritchard. Crossroads guy, you have Donovan Mitchell, which was a great pick. I took Palo Franz as a little dotted line. Defensive stud, I have OJ Anunoby, you have Derrick White. Feel-good star, you have LaMelo Ball, I have Jason Tatum. Hot seat coach, Jamal Mosley for you, Ime Udoka for me. Hot seat wildcard, Zach Richa for you. I have De'Aaron Fox. Legacy guy, I have Brunson, you have Jokic. Second banana, you have Towns, I have Jalen Durin. Third banana, the best pick of the draft for me, Aaron Gordon. You took Mikal Bridges. The leap, Steph Castle for you, Tyrese Maxey for me.

• 2:05:48Bill Simmons?

  Trade machine guy, Julius Randall for you. JDub for me, and I gotta be honest, you weren't, I thought that would get a reaction from you, and they didn't really react. Weak link, Jalen Green for you, Tobias Harris for me. Bonus guy, OS to be mentioned, Jalen Brown for you, Anthony Edwards for me. And then Coda guy, Kevin Durant for you and Steph Curry for me. And I have bad news, we've both been fired from ESPN because we didn't draft LeBron. So pack up your bags, we're done.

• 2:06:16Speaker 01

  Again?

• 2:06:18Bill Simmons?

  Actually, this can be a first text segment. LeBron doesn't go in a 32-person most intriguing draft. What's going on?

• 2:06:26Bill Simmons?

  That's it for the draft. All right.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  Should we make up a category, best on-court dad?

• 2:06:35Bill Simmons?

  You know what? We have 30, I think we have 32 right now. Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. Now we have 30. All right. Yeah, so we'll just give LeBron, special achievement LeBron, he goes to both of us.

• 2:06:51Bill Simmons?

  Special achievement LeBron. We share LeBron.

• 2:06:56Speaker 01

  Please keep your speech to fewer than three minutes.

• 2:06:58Bill Simmons?

  We both, we both take LeBron because he's been that important to the league.

• 2:07:03Bill Simmons?

  Zach Lowe, Denver tomorrow night, sold-out show. You're gonna have the one and only Chris Ryan, even though it's not CR month anymore. You're gonna have Tim Hardaway Jr. Who else is gonna be on? You have one more person.

• 2:07:14Speaker 01

  Adam Morris from DNVR, who knows Nuggets better than anyone in the world.

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  We're gonna do a lot of different stuff.

• 2:07:22Bill Simmons?

  And then you're going to be, you're gonna be doing.

• 2:07:27Bill Simmons?

  Tuesday, Thursday pods this week?

• 2:07:29Speaker 01

  Well, I don't, I don't, we'll see if the Denver one is the Tuesday one. I don't know. Um, but, uh, cause we're doing it Monday night, but Thursday for sure, we'll, I will do my annual eight by eight slash six by six rapid fire preview of every first round series that we know about.

• 2:07:45Bill Simmons?

  And I have to, I have to thank, um, New Era for helping us out with the live stream.

• 2:07:52Speaker 01

  They're also sponsoring my, they're also sponsoring my show tomorrow. So thank, double thank you, New Era.

• 2:07:58Bill Simmons?

  Um, also sent some really good stuff that I've broken out a couple of times. Uh, thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Chris and Jack Wilson as well on the Ringer side. Thanks to everybody who watched and listened. I hope the draft infuriated you or made you mad or anything. Um, I'm going to be back on Tuesday and Thursday this week. New rewatchables coming tomorrow. Basic Instinct. Get ready for Legata on Tuesday and, uh, this was really fun. Good to see you, Zach Lowe.

• 2:08:23Speaker 01

  Always fun. Thanks for having me.

• 2:08:25Bill Simmons?

  Thanks, Netflix.

• 2:08:31Bill Simmons?

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