Tatum in NYC, MVP Questions, Best First-Round Matchups, and Kon Vs. Coop, With Tim Legler

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons reacts to Thursday night's Knicks-Celtics game before being joined by Tim Legler to discuss Joel Embiid’s bizarre surgery news, Scoot Henderson and the Trail Blazers, and possible playoff matchups (0:06). Then, Bill asks five questions to try to narrow down the MVP race (01:18:50). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Tim Legler Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Learn More at https://linkedin.com/simmonsbill The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

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• 0:41Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to by FanDuel. We're also brought to by The Ringer Podcast Network, where we did a rewatchables live show in San Francisco last night. We did Basic Instinct, had an awesome time at the Tony Repi Theater. Thanks to everybody who came out. A rollicking show. We are going to be running it on Monday's rewatchable feed. We did Basic Instinct, a movie that we did six years ago during, it was like three weeks after COVID started and we did it on Zoom and we needed to redo it. We needed to do it in San Francisco because it's a great San Francisco movie. So that's coming Monday night. Coming up on this podcast, Tim Legler stops by to talk about favorite round one possible playoff matchups, the MVP race, Joel Embiid going down.

• 1:25Bill Simmons?

  We spent time talking about the Portland Trailblazers for some reason, but I enjoyed it and a whole bunch of other NBA stuff heading into the final weekend of the season. Zach Lowe and I will be on, live on Netflix, Sunday night. We'll know all the playoff matchups by then. We have a little gimmick that we're going to do on Sunday night. You can watch us live on Netflix. It'll be after the Masters, not sure of the time yet. I just watched Celtics Knicks. Interesting game. The Celtics basically have the two seed locked up, but need either one more win or a Knicks loss. And they're in MSG and they scratched Jaylen Brown this morning, which is this new NBA tactic that's not that new.

• 2:09Bill Simmons?

  I forget who started this. Basically, here's what I think the thinking was, because I don't think Jaylen Brown, you could have rested him tomorrow night. Like if you really wanted to win this game tonight, you play everybody.

• 2:26Bill Simmons?

  This is my guess. I think the Missoula and the Celtics, they're looking at this like if we have our full team with Tatum back and we go to MSG, we play the Knicks who are trying to beat us and they beat us. There's some sort of psychological edge that you combine that with what happened in the playoffs last year with the two come from behind wins in the first two games in Boston. Tatum gets hurt and MSG, the Knicks beat the Celtics in the series and a Knicks team that seems pretty confident against the Celtics in general, combined with them beating the full Celtics team at MSG, is that worth it? Or we could go the other way, bench Jalen, play missing the guy who's a first team All

• 3:10Bill Simmons?

  NBA guy this year and maybe we beat the Knicks anyway and if we don't, we could just say, well, we didn't have Jalen. This seems like this new psychological warfare that teams do. So the Knicks won, they were celebrating like they won game seven of a playoff series and for the Celtics like eh, we didn't have Jalen Brown, Derrick White couldn't hit a shot, Tatum was seven for 22 and on the flip side, Josh Hart, who had been reaching the point where it's like, are the Knicks just going to bench him in the fourth quarter of playoff games and play other guys? He goes five for seven from three, 26 points, which I think is the second highest total he's had this year. He had 15 points in the previous three games, just one of those games.

• 3:51Bill Simmons?

  I think there's a bunch of lineup stuff that the Celtics are going to do against the Knicks when it actually gets to a playoff series. Like you saw Cade out there in crunch time, always getting switched on Brunson. I think when we get to the playoffs, they're probably going to play Jason Tatum at the five with Jalen Brown with a shooter and two guards. The other thing, the only thing that I'm a little worried about with the Celtics is Derrick White seems like he's running out of gas a little bit. He just couldn't make anything today. He was two for 10, oh for six from three. He's played big minutes this year. He's had a big burden. He's going to be in some all defensive teams. And if I had rested anybody in this game, I probably would have rested him over Jaylen Brown.

• 4:32Bill Simmons?

  So decent Knicks win. I get it. It's not their fault that Jaylen Brown didn't play. And I'm sure they feel like they can hang with the Celtics and Brunson. If they can just keep these games close in the end, there is basically Brunson against whoever has the ball in crunch time for the Celtics. The Knicks are going to feel good about it. I still would rather play Cleveland in round two than the Knicks, which Tim Legler and I talk about in a second, but I just still think the Celtics have a better team. And my mind did not change tonight. The one thing that important that happened tonight was Tatum went back to MSG and they talked about it a lot, obviously.

• 5:13Bill Simmons?

  Hard not to think about it over and over again as this game was going on, especially in the second half, the TV angle, they were on the left. The Celtics were on the left side when you're watching on TV, the same spots that they were in when Tatum went down in MSG last May. There was a couple of moments when he collided, he stumbled, you just get the PTSD flashback. He rebounded really well. He did not shoot well. I didn't, I didn't think that was like a particularly awesome Tatum game, but he, his presence was everywhere and he's rebounding. But I think they needed to get him over the hump with this and maybe that played into the Jaylen Brown piece as well.

• 5:51Bill Simmons?

  Like let's, let's have Tatum, he's running the show. Let's get his feet wet in MSG again. We're back to the scene of the crime, basically. It's a weird one. I remember Gordon Hayward, he got hurt in the first game of the season against Cleveland in Cleveland. And then anytime he went back there, you couldn't help but think about it all the time. So they needed to get over the hump with that. Legs and I talked about Tatum when we were about to do this podcast, but a remarkable comeback athletically. He looks basically where he was before. I still, like today was a good example of like this Knicks team is.

• 6:29Bill Simmons?

  Kind of built to stop Tatum and Brown. You could see all the wings that they could throw at him and it was hard for him to find the right space and stuff like that. But the bottom line is I think they lose this game by 15 to 20 if Pritchard and Shireman don't just both start making threes. There is a point in the third quarter when it just seemed like this game was going to get completely out of the hand and then the Celtics started making threes. When it gets to a playoff series and if it is the Knicks, the Tatum Brown combo becomes so much more important because it allows them to go small. It allows them to target whoever the non-Ananobe defender is. And I just, this game did not change my mind.

• 7:14Bill Simmons?

  One good thing that happened there for the Celtics, Pritchard, who always sucks against the Knicks, I thought had a really good game. So we'll see. Look, MSG, a lot of demons at this point because of the Tatum injury last year and because of the playoff series, but it would be a great series and I don't think, I don't think Hart would be doing five for seven from three every game. No series would be my guess. But congratulations to the Knicks fans. All right, we're going to bring in Tim Legler and we're going to talk basketball for 95 solid minutes. Buckle up. Let's take a break, Pearl Jam, and then Tim Legler. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel.

• 7:57Bill Simmons?

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• 8:55Bill Simmons?

  Our friend Tim Legler is here. You heard him last night. Portland, San Antonio. We're going to talk about Portland because I think we both like Portland, but lots of stuff to discuss. We're doing this before the Thursday games. The big story was Embiid is now out for the first round of the playoffs, it looks like. Appendicitis. This guy, it just, the injuries, this has become one of the most star-crossed stars we've ever had. This is like entering Bill Walton kind of territory of one of the great players who just never got to where he could get to.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  I thought, I thought pretty much I was past the point of thinking anything with him would be incomprehensible. This is incomprehensible that I got this news today. I was flying back from the game I did and, and actually, you're looking forward to doing this with you and kind of going over everything. And obviously, they've been playing pretty well of late. And you're looking at them and just as, without question, the most interesting team in the, like, the bottom half of any of these playoff brackets because of what they've represented, who they have. And it's like, finally, like, it looks like they're actually going to head in to the postseason. Not only with all three of their stars, like, upright, but Paul George playing some of the best basketball he's played in five years.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  And then this happens. But, and it made me think, first of all, can I ask you a question? Like, you know, you hear about it all the time, but do you know anybody personally that has had appendicitis that had an emergency appendectomy?

• 10:24Bill Simmons?

  Not anybody I have ever worked with, not anyone in my family, and not any of my friends.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Me either. I, I, I don't either. Actually, I was, they thought I had it. It's actually a pretty awesome story. I was doing post-game SportsCenter pre and post one of the Heat Spurs finals. I don't remember which year. It's game seven. Did they both go seven? So it was the year that it went seven games.

• 10:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  It was game seven.

• 10:54Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  I did the pregame and I was, I was, I didn't have postgame duties, just pregame. We had one segment left to do and I felt the most intense burning pain I've ever felt. And right, basically in my sternum.

• 11:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  And I started kind of sweating. Everybody was worried about me, but I'm like, no, no, we got one more, literally one more segment and I'm done for the season.

• 11:16Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  And so we, we did the SportsCenter segment. I basically finished, I collapsed to the ground, went down to one knee. I could not walk anymore. It was only the first time, I think, in my life I've ever been on an ambulance. They put me in an ambulance from the, from the Miami Heat arena. I had to go to, to an emergency hospital. And it turned out it, it, it just was, it was not appendicitis. I don't even remember now. It's been so long ago what they diagnosed me with, but they treated me at the hospital. Within a couple of hours, I was feeling a lot better. I watched game seven of that series on a cell phone with a producer who traveled with me in the ambulance, who held the phone in front of me.

• 11:56Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  And we kind of watched the game together. And that's how I watched, that's how I watched that game, that epic game. But so I thought I had it. I didn't have it. I've never known a person that's gone through it, whether a family member, colleague, friend, or anything like you just said. So you hear about it all the time. You know, it's a real thing, but it's like, are you kidding me? Of everything else this guy's dealt with? Now this happens now, what I didn't know, and I think you maybe cleared up just now. I, I had no idea, like, what's the timeframe for something like this?

• 12:26Bill Simmons?

  It seems like minimum 18 days. And sometimes it's even gone longer than that. So it's just, so if you started right now, if you start the clock on 18 days, maybe he could come back for like the last two games of around one. But this is also somebody that has just, you know, he's played 38 games this year. He played 19 last year. He played 39 in the 24 season. Um, he hasn't gotten to 500 games yet. For the playoffs, uh, 59 playoff games total, has never played more than 11 games in a playoff thing. And what you said before was the interesting piece of this. You know, as a Celtic fan, I'm watching this going.

• 13:08Bill Simmons?

  2-7, like I, I do feel like the Celtics have owned Philly over the years, but I also kind of don't want to see the rejuvenated Paul George and B just being healthy for four weeks, but two of the weeks are against Boston.

• 13:21Bill Simmons?

  Some of the young legs they have, they have good coach. And you know, this is the seven, eight, nine, 10 this year in both conferences. Cause like you said, you, you were at that San Antonio Portland game and you were saying before we got on how you like Portland. I feel the same way, like I watch Portland, they're not going to beat OKC in a playoff series, but they'll throw some punches. They're going to land some shots on your jaw. They have a guy, Avdi at the end of games. I thought that Portland Denver game was one of the most fascinating games I watched all year on Monday night. They just went toe to toe. They, they made like 24 threes. They couldn't stop Avdi. He was going to his right over and over and over again. They can protect the rim. They're for an eight seed, that's a pretty good eight seed.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  You know what it showed me though, that game, cause I watched that game too. And I, I've kind of fallen on the Portland bandwagon here over the last six weeks or so. They've become the team I'm, I like watching, my guilty pleasure team in the West.

• 14:14Bill Simmons?

  Me too.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  When they're on, it's kind of like how I feel about Charlotte in the East. I just enjoy watching them. They're just so fun.

• 14:20Bill Simmons?

  Charlotte's not even guilty anymore. Now Charlotte's just a pleasure. Yeah, you don't even have to feel guilty about it.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  They're mainstream pleasure now.

• 14:25Bill Simmons?

  Portland's the new guilty one.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  You don't have to secretly watch them. That's very true. But it showed you those two games, the Denver game and then the one that I called last night against San Antonio, who by the way, didn't have Wemby, didn't have Stefan Castle, who's one of the elite perimeter defensive guards in the league. The difference between those two teams defensively, Denver and San Antonio. Cause like nothing really came easy for Portland in this game. They had a couple of pockets at time where they kind of looked like themselves in the regular season, but overall there, there was just very little space to be had against the Spurs. And the one thing, and they didn't play as well as they can offensively. It was amazing though, San Antonio had a very difficult time like ending the game. They, they go up 12, 14, then it was eight.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  And you're like, okay, if Portland gets a couple of stops here, this is going to get interesting and they couldn't do that.

• 15:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Eventually San Antonio, you know, they, They get the win as they typically do. Portland wasn't their best, but the one thing I'm thinking about watching that game and I, I love Avdia, we actually had a chance to sit with him in the green room before the game. I've never met him. He came in and did 15 minutes with us. It was, it was probably maybe the best player interview we did all year. Just first of all, the guy's got an incredibly engaging, outgoing personality. Like he likes doing the interview process. He gave really insightful answers. We talked about his history, like and McCoby and everything and coming over here and being a young man and now going to Portland when you're starting to find yourself in Washington. He took us through all that stuff. Yeah.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  So I'm really pulling for this guy, but the one thing he has to add, and it was so obvious to me in watching this game, he has to have a step back jump shot. He doesn't have one. His game is power and force downhill and he's really good at it. And he gets to the line 10 times most nights. He didn't get to the line in this game and it hurt their offense. And he shoots these little floater shots in the lane, these little push shots. And he really just overwhelms you physically because he's so damn strong and he comes at you so hard in the open floor. Great little Euro at the end. He could step around, charges. He does not have the ability to shoot a shot like into a step back off the dribble in one

• 16:37Speaker 01

  on one coverage. And, and think about it, he's averaging 24 points a game. He's shooting 31% from the three on the season. It's like just good enough if he's got time and he's squared up that you still have to close out on him. Yeah. And that's what he wants because he'll go by you. If he adds that, it's a whole nother level. That's, that's the way we're going to look at him because he's rebounding at like eight, nine a game. He's getting six, seven, eight assists most nights. He's efficient with his shooting, very tough. He defends, does it all. He just does not have an answer to being closely guarded if he can't get to the rim. Right. And San Antonio does that about as well as any team in the league. They're not going

• 17:19Speaker 01

  to let you get to those spots. Started a pretty good game production wise, but it was glaring to me. I'm like, there were situations where it's like he's Got swung back to him, seven on the clock, six on the clock. He's at 28 feet. What do all the elite players in this league do? They go to a step back jump shot. And he doesn't really have that. And to me, that's like the final piece for him. Where he will be a guy that will, everybody will look at as like this guy's legitimately an all league caliber player. If he can add that, and of course, the team's success has to come with it.

• 17:53Bill Simmons?

  It's interesting. He was 13 for 21 in that game. But I did notice what you said. And against Denver, he was just able to just go right over and over again. He always really good at this. Putting you in and then getting to a spot. What you're talking about is what Jalen Brown added. Where Jalen Brown had a lot of the, but he was a better three point shooter, but. He added like those two moves off of driving hard to the right where he could cross over now. And then he's got that little turnaround thing he does, like the little.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Turnaround, he does the jump stop and then he spins back.

• 18:25Bill Simmons?

  He didn't have that last year. He, so he added two things that now. When he's going hard to the basket, teams have to figure out what to do. I think with the. So what'd you think of Scoot last night? Cause I have a lot of Scoot stock from a couple of years ago and he's been a little up and down, but there's. There's moments with him and defensively, there's been, I think. I think some really interesting things for him. His shooting is still a little erratic, but it feels like they're trusting him more and more. What'd you see when you saw him in person?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Well, so first of all, and, and Richard and I, Richard Jefferson and I, a couple of different times in the game are like kind of elbowing each other and kind of because. Because there were times that he demonstrated like by a lot. Was like the most explosive athlete on the floor. And you're like, some of his burst up the floor. He had one play where he deflected a ball. It was coming right at us at the, at the table where we sit. And there's like no way, number one, he's getting to this ball. And number two, there's no possible way he could stay on his feet and stay in bounds. And he did all of those things. He went all the way down to the ground. He put his right hand on the ground like a running back. And, and somehow, some way stayed in bounds at an.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Impossible angle and then he goes and he and he's got a defender like had an angle on him to cut him off from getting a breakaway dunk blew right past them and threw it down and you look at the game like he's making some threes and then he shoots back to back open look air ball threes from opposite corners and you're like man and then he had I said on the air two drives that were unbelievably like lightning quick crossover explodes off his feet gets to the rim to where like no one's gonna jump like Luke Cornet was on the floor he was like gonna be late so he didn't even jump and he tries to put some funky English on the ball and it like slams off the backboard and then he missed a reverse layup under similar circumstances uncontested after this

• 20:21Speaker 01

  great move but then he made a couple threes after that like so his night was like kind of like a mixed bag right he's definitely a better player than he than he was when he came into the league he he's got he's actually had a pretty good run here shooting the basketball from three yeah over the last month or so he didn't shoot it particularly well in this game but he he is eye popping man with his quickness and his burst and he's just his raw athletic ability will his efficiency ever improve beyond a 41% shooter I don't know man he's got to do it this is three straight years he's 41 and under like you've got at some point get that thing up to 44 45% from the field cut down on some of the turnovers finish the shots I'm talking about when you do

• 21:06Speaker 01

  all the work with your handle show me some finesse at the rim so he has more there

• 21:12Bill Simmons?

  22 so that's good 22 years old

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Bill he's come a long way from where he was and a lot of people I saw some stuff on social media last night like after the game like is it too is it too um early to call him a bust and I'm saying

• 21:25Bill Simmons?

  he's definitely not a bust

• 21:27Speaker 01

  you can't call him that because because he has a he has a level of quickness and explosiveness from like a standstill position by you that's really exceptional for this league And he's starting to shoot it better. He's so young. He didn't, I don't think it ever really been taught the game very much before he got to the league. So some of his instincts even aren't super high level. That's getting better. No, I think, I think he's got a chance to, to, to do some things because he's definitely improved dramatically in certain areas.

• 22:00Bill Simmons?

  I don't like his finishing stuff and, but I think that can get better with how good of an athlete he is. I don't think he's, like you mentioned that, that weird spin shot. Like I just feel like he's not as good, like where somebody like Rose and Westbrook, when those guys came in the league and you saw them go to the basket, they were scoring. And that's the kind of guy I thought he was going to be coming into the, the draft.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  So did I.

• 22:22Bill Simmons?

  And the shots all over the place. And that's the other thing that needs to get better. But I think athletically he belongs in a lot of these games. And if I'm them, I at least feel like, yeah, I feel like I have something here and, you know.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  And they're, they're, and they're, they're, um, they're giving him a chance. Like I felt like earlier in his career, it was almost like, sometimes coaching staffs, and Splitter's done a really good job with this.

• 22:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  You have to look at a player, you, every team, if you're lucky, you got one or two guys that kind of do everything well. And, and they also get the green light to do anything they want because they're that good.

• 22:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Everybody else, you know, you sort of fall into a lane. You better do something exceptionally well. And good coaching staffs, look at a guy and they don't always focus on what he's not doing that annoys you. Because, because guys get caught up in that trap. And it's very difficult to get out of that. Because those flaws are going to surface almost every night. Whether it's your handles too loose, or you just aren't a good enough passer and they get tipped and stolen. Or defensively, like you're not, you're not able to keep up or whatever, you're shooting, whatever. They're going to surface, right? Over time, hopefully you correct them. The good coaching staffs, they go, you know what, I gotta live with that stuff because

• 23:42Speaker 01

  there's something else there that we need and we're gonna value him for that. And I feel like that's where they're at now with him. And you're still gonna have these nights with, with really bad looking jump shots and he's gonna turn the ball over to miss a couple of driving layups, going too fast at the rim. But then he's also gonna have a five or six minute stretch, man, where he looks like so dynamic athletically that it gives your team something you don't really have otherwise at that spot.

• 24:08Bill Simmons?

  You know, I really wish he had spent a year in college and played in some big games versus play. I just felt like that was such a throwaway year, that last G League year. Cause I look at somebody like Castle, who is turning into one of my favorite players in the league, but that year he had at UConn where they had a loaded team. He didn't really have the ball that much and he had to figure out how to do all these other things and be a glue guy and kinda step in when they needed him. But was also in some really big games. And then when he, and it was one of the reasons he dropped to four in the draft, cause people like, what is he? Is he, can he be offensive enough? Is there enough here? And he goes to San Antonio now, he is who he is. And you know, I, we, I know you have a vote, I have a vote, I'm more open about my vote

• 24:53Bill Simmons?

  than yours, but I think Castle's gonna end up on my third team All-NBA. And I don't think he's gonna make it. I don't think, I don't think I'll be the only one, but I also don't think he's gonna make it. But I thought he was one of the best players I saw this season, the, the Nonsensers, like just impactful the entire time he's out there. Doesn't take a play off relentless. I thought defensively, like he's in the running for first team all defense for me. I think he fills in a lot of spots for them. I think there's more there too. Um, but yes, with Scoot, like, I just wish he had had that extra year. Anyway, the, the Portland team. There's a lot of defense and I don't think that's like a walkover 1-8 matchup for, uh, for OKC. OKC will beat them. Um.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, they will. They will. And you know, it's, it's at the end of the day, Oklahoma City's their defense will just wear you down and, and eventually you succumb to it.

• 25:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  And it demoralize you with their defensive pressure, the way that they convert any mistake you make into points the other way. It's demoralizing to you. This team also, when you put a lineup out there on the floor with Drew Holiday, Tumani Kamara, you could put Thible out there. Now it's not the best shooting lineup, but what you can, and even with Klingon and Robert Williams behind you, what you, what you can, and Abdi really competes when he's playing like the four spot. They, they can do things defensively too. Problem is they're 27th in the league in, in three-point shooting and it, and it is a problem when you play teams like San Antonio and Oklahoma City who over-rotate on all penetration. It's, and I've always compared it to like when you put

• 26:32Speaker 01

  food into a fishbowl, if you looked at the lane from above, when the ball's dribbled into the lane, that's what it looks like against these teams. Piranhas, how they go to the fish food, right? That's what it looks like. And so as a result, that kick out pass, if you're good enough to make that without it getting tipped and they're going to close out lightning fast and they're going to get there, but you will get the shot. You better make your share. Like, and you're going to have to have these crazy shooting nights against them. And I just don't think Portland's capable of doing that.

• 26:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  So they're fun. It's going to come to an end, but the good news is it's moving in the right direction. They've got a nice little mix of a couple of vets and a bunch of young dudes. I like watching play. I'm really impressed with the improvement of Tumani Kamara. I almost didn't recognize him offensively. I haven't seen him in person all year, but watching a guy in person is different than on TV. And I'm like, man, this guy, this guy's offense and like the way he's hunting it and shooting threes early in the offense and like putting the ball on the floor and he's, he's so great defensively. They've got a real player in him and I didn't know if he was ever going to show this kind of growth offensively, but he has and, and Klingon's another guy, how much dramatically he's improved his impact since he came into the league. I just

• 27:44Speaker 01

  like their team. It's a shame because they're going to run into some buzzsaw if they're able to escape the play in which they might not even do that. I mean, they're going to probably host Golden State in the nine, 10. And even if they win that game, you're gonna have to go on the road and play Phoenix or the Clippers. It's probably gonna end there. If somehow they win two of those games, they get in. And now you're gonna go get Oklahoma City as your reward. A taste of the playoffs would be great, but I don't think anybody would think, you know, I don't know if they could even win a game in a series against Oklahoma City, at most one. But the good thing is it's another team that I like watching that's kinda in the mix now going into next year.

• 28:24Bill Simmons?

  I think they could beat the Clippers. I just don't think the Clippers are big enough, you know, and I was really impressed by how they went against Denver and what, basically they lost the game when Kamara fouled out of that game. But what's happened to him over the course of the year? And I don't know, I just think the Clippers, as great as Kawhi's been, are pretty beatable. One last thing with Portland legs, really quick.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:49Bill Simmons?

  I have been maintaining that I think this is a stealth Giannis team. Because I don't, I think there's enough acrimony with the Milwaukee situation with Giannis at this point, that they're just gonna take the best trade now. I don't think it's gonna be like, oh, Giannis told us he wanted to go to Miami, so we're gonna figure out Miami, because we wanted to, I think that's out the window. And Portland has, you know, two of their picks, maybe two swaps and one of their picks, I can't remember what it is, but they have their picks for three straight years, they've stuck to trade. I could see him on this team. You could really talk yourself into it pretty fast. I mean, there's some health stuff with Giannis that you'd have to be worried about, but I

• 29:32Bill Simmons?

  just feel like new owner, I said this to Zach the other day, new owner. The foundation, some picks, like I could just see them getting frisky.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  That's an interesting one, man, and that would be, I tell you what, I haven't put any thought into that, like Giannis going out there, but I'm now picturing it.

• 29:50Bill Simmons?

  You can see it, right?

• 29:53Speaker 01

  I'm picturing him out there with this team. You can see it, and... I think one thing that Thiago Splitter, when we talked to him before the game, he, by the way, he's, he's, he was, he's great, man. He's a really interesting character and, and you know, he got, he got dealt a really difficult situation with what went down with Chauncey right at the beginning of the season. Now all of a sudden you get handed a team to coach that you weren't expecting to coach and be the head guy. Done a very good job and you can, you can, it's a testament to how many guys have improved this year. That that's, a lot of that's coaching and, and putting guys in the right spots and, and valuing them and the communication with them and managing people. And he said, he said anything surprising? He said, yeah, you know, 80% of this job is managing people. It's not X's and O's. It's not how much you know. It's managing men, managing young men

• 30:38Speaker 01

  in some cases, managing vets, managing a roster. He said, that's really what the job is. And that's where he had to learn on the fly and, and he did it. But I'm, I'm thinking, one thing he did say was they really, really desperately wanted to move the needle forward with this team this year. Like outside the play-in was gonna feel really empty, even if it was like one game outside the play-in. They had to get in to feel what this is going to be like because they do like what they have in some of these young pieces. And so this was important to get in. And now we'll see. Look, they got a huge game Friday night. They play the Clippers and I think that, what are they like? Is there a half game back?

• 31:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they could, they could jump them if they win that game.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, they win that game, they jump them and now you get into the seven, eight.

• 31:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  That's a little bit of a different scenario. Number one, you get two opportunities to win a game, but you also have an opportunity to get into the seven and play San Antonio and not Oklahoma City. And not that that would be easy by any means. By the way, Portland is the one that they beat them both. They beat each of them once this year.

• 31:41Bill Simmons?

  I think they're scary in that, in that level. I think they're a scary team because of the way they play defense. Just for a one gamer.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  It'd be fun.

• 31:50Bill Simmons?

  The other Yanis team that I've been looking at, I've been watching a lot of Atlanta. Atlanta Cleveland was was a really good one last night where Cleveland was up most of the game and but Atlanta you can never really put them away and you and with their defense and how explosive some of their shooting is all of a sudden they just make up 10 points right away. That was another Giannis team for me. When I watched them, I'm just like, if you just put him in the Akongwu spot with the rest of the team I'm watching, that's a pretty frightening Eastern Conference team and they have, you know, they have this New Orleans pick, they have some other assets that they could probably make a trade. But I think the the second best, I want to talk playoff series with you, like possible matchups.

• 32:32Bill Simmons?

  The second best playoff matchup of all the matchups is Cleveland, Atlanta. If you're just talking about basketball from a what could happen in this, because the thing I noticed last night watching them, I don't feel like those teams are much different from a talent standpoint. Like I think they're right there with each other. I was looking up the stats, last 30, Cleveland's 22 and 8, 8th net rating. Atlanta's 21 and 9, 9th net rating. Last 20, Atlanta's 16 and 4, 4th net rating. Cleveland's 14 and 6, 13th rating. So basically for almost half the season, these teams are right around the same. And you could say with Cleveland, well, some guys have been missing blah, blah, blah. But I don't know. I just think if they play, that's that that feels like a game seven to me.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  That absolutely of all of the ones I wrote down felt the most like a seven game series. If that if that were to be the matchup, that feels the most likely to be with some like tight games. Some some some of the games in there would be really high scoring. I think others would be a little bit lower scoring.

• 33:33Bill Simmons?

  Some chokes. We'll see teams blowing.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Possessions.

• 33:37Bill Simmons?

  Teams blowing a seven point lead with two minutes left. I don't know which team. It could be either team. Both of them have the history of coming back up or, you know, blowing a game.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  I had Atlanta, we had Atlanta, Detroit not long ago. Atlanta went in there and beat them.

• 33:53Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Um, and man, oh man, was I impressed with their team. Nikhil Alexander Walker, Jalen Johnson, like what those two guys are doing. And what Nikhil Alexander Walker's turned himself into um, as a, as a scorer is, is incredible to me. And that's why, you know, his name's going to be mentioned for most improved player and he deserves to be in that mix and he might win it. Um, because you're talking about a guy that was really just sort of labeled in this very narrow category of three and D, but mostly D. And it was like, go guard, picks guys up 75 feet when he was in Minnesota because he was playing like, you know, reserve minutes a lot of times. So you can do that. Go pick up 75 feet. And we all noticed it like, wow, this guy gets into you. If he gave you double figures on a given night,

• 34:36Speaker 01

  total gravy. It's all about guarding. He goes to Atlanta, you kidding me? The guy for the last like month and a half has averaged almost 25 points a game, close to 50% three point shooting and he's getting them off at a high volume. Like, there's no way anybody saw this as his ceiling as a scorer. And that, when you take yourself from a, there's an absolute role player, very limited offensive responsibility to this, then absolutely you thrust yourself into that conversation as most improved player. And I wouldn't be shocked if he wins it.

• 35:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I had Durin for about 60 games. To me, it's like, how does Alexander Walker not win this? He averaged nine point four points a game last year. He's at 21 now. And when you watch them, it's not just like he's getting hot from the corner. Like they're running plays for him. They're, they're flaring him off picks. Defenses are like shifting their defense to try to like shut him down. It's honestly like watching like Bradley Beal and the Wizards or something. When Bradley Beal was good, like he's a real scorer that you have to account for.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  He's got, he's got the Luca mentality sometimes to the start of games who have always joked is the only guy in the league that does a heat check on the first possession. Nikhil Alexander Walker, it, it like, he, he's like that some nights now. He's getting up five, six, seven shots in the first quarter, like because he's carrying himself like a legit big time scorer because that's how he has operated. So they're, they're a really fun, interesting team. That'd be a great series if, if that's what we get.

• 36:07Bill Simmons?

  I'm sure you're like me. I don't really fully understand the award. I usually steer toward improbable turnarounds from the year before versus like a young guy. Who's like, oh, you were a top five lottery pick and you're way better in your third year than you were last year. Like to me, that's not a most improved. Durin's somebody that looks different to me because I thought I knew what he was last year. But all the stuff, the physicality he's added, the durability, the night after night where I just feel like he sets the tone for the, for who they are as a team, comes from him and to a lesser degree Stuart, but he's just, just a badass.

• 36:49Bill Simmons?

  Like he's out of like your era, you could see him, you know, getting in a shoving matches with the Anthony Mason and Alonzo Mourning. Like that's, so he just brings that to them and I, I think that matters. But Alexander Walker just becoming the guy we're watching is completely improbable. Nobody would have predicted that last year. So I think he has to win it personally.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Durin, Durin, real quick on Durin, like, yeah, I saw some of it last year. Did not at any point come to the conclusion that this was his ceiling as a scorer. And if he's gone here, maybe there's even more, another level for him offensively. Cause the one thing he's doing that I didn't see last year, his ability now to screen, roll, catch the ball on the short roll. And then do something with it going toward the rim, like avoiding guys and going in and shooting a shot that's pretty soft off the glass. I know he's going to beat you up and throw you around on the glass a little bit. If he gets around the rim, it's very difficult to stop him from getting up something at the basket. But that was all he did last year. Now it's like they can run more dynamic sets and trust that you can throw the ball to him on the move at 18 feet.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  And he's going to do something with it. So for me, that's a big, big jump. And actually the other guy we were already talking about, I think you have to give Obvious some look here. Cause I know last year we saw it at the end of the year.

• 38:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but it was, it was like a month and a half last year where he was doing this. That's the only thing.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  It was, but that's, you know, to me, that's why I've kind of torn on him. Cause at the, cause at the same time, it's a small sample size, but you also say, yeah, but I, but it was outrageous numbers. It was like 25, 26. Night for like six weeks. So you kind of got an idea. Okay, it's in there. But it's a big difference between averaging like 16 for a season. And not really being the guy that's got to carry you every night to like, okay, now you're 24 and I guess what? You better be 24 every night. Like that's gotta be your floor now. And on some nights it's 35 if that's what it takes. And then in addition to the other stuff that you're doing. Filling up the stat sheet everywhere you look. I to me, he also probably deserves a look, but then you got this other category of player like a Colin Gillespie or a.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  I think even Kada, I think even Kada deserves a little bit of attention. He's an impact player now for the Boston Celtics and I watched him last year and I thought at best he's going to be like a third center. That can play spot minutes. And what he's turned into for them, he is an impact player on a team that's the two seed in the Eastern Conference. He so that's another category of player. Like you don't even know what they are in the league to, oh, starting on a good team. That's, that's a different look than like guys. Okay. Yeah. They're already pretty good players. In some cases, top 10 picks.

• 39:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  But I had no idea that they were this good. So there's two ways, I guess, to break it down. And whatever your criteria is, we'll determine it.

• 39:35Bill Simmons?

  He was the next guy I was going to bring up to you because I think he's going to be third on my ballot. He went from like afterthought, my daughter who goes to some of the games was her favorite player other than Tatum. She's, she was always like, I don't understand why Kada doesn't play more. It's like, well, he's backup center. Like he's not, how much is he going to play? Four centers ahead of him. He's first of all, is like genuinely valuable now. Like, yeah, like there, there's maybe two, three teams in the league that. You worry about with him going against him, but for the most part, like. He's 12 and 10 every night. He protects the rim. The advanced metrics are out of control for him.

• 40:16Bill Simmons?

  And I do feel like he's gotten better as the years gone along. Like he's got little drop steps now on the rim. So, but that goes back to your point like, can you be most improved if we basically didn't even hear from you last year? Cause Shireman's another one like that, like Shireman. Simmons a real asset for the Celtics. He didn't play at all last year. I don't, does that mean he's improved? To me, Alexander Walker is like the definition of the award. I thought you were this and now you're doing this and I didn't see that coming. We gotta take a break. Yeah. I want to talk about the playoff matchups. I want to talk about Cleveland, Atlanta and Minnesota Demer. We'll do that in a second. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by FanDuel. The most prestigious tournament in golf is happening in Augusta right now.

• 40:59Bill Simmons?

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• 41:43Bill Simmons?

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• 42:28Bill Simmons?

  LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. So advertise on LinkedIn, spend $250, get a $250 credit. Just go to LinkedIn.com/SimmonsBill. Terms and conditions apply. Cavs, Atlanta. So this is a big topic on my Celtics text threads, my Celtic fan threads. Who do we want to play in round two?

• 42:55Bill Simmons?

  Do you want to play Cleveland or do you want to play the Knicks? Like, we're taping this before the Knicks-Celtic game tonight. And the Knicks have, you know, they played the Celtics. They beat them last year. They have confidence. You hate playing a team that feels like they can beat you. They were kind of built to play the Celtics. And then you have Tatum going back to MSG and all this stuff that comes with that. Just like, hey, a year ago, this was the worst moment of your life. And now we're back in this environment again. Cleveland is a team that is super confident against the Celtics. They've had really good battles and Mitchell has always done well against Boston. So has Struce. Like, they have guys, but to me, that's an easier matchup. And this ties into Cleveland-Atlanta. I don't think Cleveland's good enough defensively.

• 43:40Bill Simmons?

  And I think you can get good shots against them. And when I look about the two matchups, I personally would rather play Cleveland as a Celtic fan. Because I think we'd get good shots for two weeks. What, do you think Cleveland's defense gets better? What are you seeing?

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Um, I don't necessarily think that their defense is anything that you're like looking at and saying that's going to win them some games in the playoffs. Or that is a defense that's equipped, where you're trying to figure out how you're going to operate against them in a series. Like, we got some teams like that in the West. I don't think that, and I actually feel that way a lot of nights I watch Boston. And I think Detroit actually also could be a defense that's that good. I don't feel that way about Cleveland. I think if Cleveland wins a series, it's going to be because their offense can be very explosive.

• 44:25Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  And they've got, you know, obviously, they've got two star guards. And Mitchell is capable of going off at any time. They've got a stable of three-point shooting around their best players. They added a point guard that can reward guys at a higher degree than Garland could. So they've, they've kind of answered that. But there is one thing with Cleveland that if I were the Celtics, I would probably look at them as well and say, that's probably a safer matchup, is you wonder with what's going on with them the last couple of years, and, and, and not just that Cleveland team, but also you bring James Harden into the mix, who's had some playoff issues in the past.

• 45:06Bill Simmons?

  Oh, oh, you think?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  And you wonder what they would feel like if they fell behind in a series, or if they started to have some moments where it was like slipping away a game that was a pivotal game. You don't, you don't know how mentally, collectively, they're going to handle that.

• 45:22Bill Simmons?

  So I think if I'm Atlanta, I'm really excited about what you just said. We can get these guys. That you have the heart and peace. You have the last couple of years. Honestly, you have LeBron looming as like, what's he gonna do next year? Is there a blow up? Is Giannis looming? That team, if it goes badly for them around one or around two, I'm prepared for anything, right? Is there a single guy on that team? You would bet your life is gonna be on that team next year? If they, they have an embarrassing round one or round two loss, I'm ready for anything with them. And sometimes when you're a team and you hit that point and it's these playoff games where it's three minutes left and you just blew an eight point lead and the crowds go nuts.

• 46:05Bill Simmons?

  Like the, the off the court stuff can, can kinda, kinda hang around like a black cloud, you know? I, so, look, that's a, it's a really, really good offensive team. If you catch them on the right night, you would think they are a top three offense. They're a little like Denver in this way, where I feel like I can get good shots on Denver whenever I want. But if you catch them on the right night, they look like the best offense in the league. You can feel that with Cleveland.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%. They have quarters sometimes where they, they'll get, they'll drop a 40 on you. And it's not really difficult because they pop, when they, when they really, really get the ball hopping and they make quick decisive reads off their initial ball screen and that ball then comes out of there quickly and there's still 14 seconds on the clock. They're gonna make you chase it for two or three passes and they're going to end up with a great shot. And I've seen them string together seven, eight shots in a row in a quarter like it's nothing against good teams. For me, the entire reason I would be suspicious of them doing real damage in, in, you know, multiple series is because of the psychological effect. And are they tough enough when they have to be tough enough?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  2-2, everything's on the line. How tough are you going to be tonight? That's what you wonder about them. And look, it's, you know, they have, they had a little bit of an excuse last year because they were banged up. They were not healthy at the end of the year after a 64 win season. It's just bad luck to not be, everybody's there feeling good to represent what you were most of the season. They weren't. That's fine. Two years ago, they didn't have as much of it and I don't feel like they've got one this year. Like if it, to your point, if they lose in the first round. Like, and you're talking about to a team like Atlanta, if they lose to Atlanta, which is this team that's came kind of arose out of nowhere the second half of the season and that's who you lose to in the first round. Like, there's no telling what they might end up doing to

• 47:58Speaker 01

  this roster and just the way they view how they want to go forward because clearly this isn't moving in the right direction if that's what happens. At minimum, I mean, really, they should be thinking conference finals at minimum. Anything else should feel unsatisfying to them. But realistically, where they ended up in the regular season, you know, maybe, maybe second round is where it's going to end. But they should be thinking conference finals, finals. And in their own house, they should feel, I think, really like unfulfilled if they don't get that far. But I think the rest of us are looking at them a little bit differently. Maybe second round will be their ceiling.

• 48:37Bill Simmons?

  On Fanduel, they have that, the odds for each round, like who can get to round two, stuff like that. The Hawks are plus 280 to make it to round two. So that means they think this series is going to be around four to one, five to one favorites for Cleveland. I would have it closer than that. Now, if I was betting my life on it, you'd pick Cleveland because they have more talent. But I think Atlanta can throw some haymakers on them. And the thing that, the reason I don't like Atlanta in the series is because I think weirdly, the key guy for the series for them is going to be Kaminga. Because he, they, he's that one guy off the bench that's the wild card guy. And if he's like the Kaminga like he was last

• 49:17Bill Simmons?

  night, then now they have a lot of stuff going on. I also like Gay a lot. I think, sometimes I wonder if that's their best lineup when he's out there with like their other best four guys. But when they, when Kaminga brings them something extra off the bench, it's, it's like this wave of dudes that can just create their own shots and they, you know, their defense. I think they're a scary team. Like for, I don't think they're going to win three playoff rounds. But, you know, I don't think this was an accident that they just put this 30 game stretch together.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  I would, I would be very surprised if those two teams played, if Atlanta didn't win at least two games in that series.

• 49:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so we both think seven.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Totally shocked, I wouldn't be totally shocked if it went seven. They're gonna win at least two games, I believe, and maybe one of those games, Cleveland, you know, their offense, because they can do this to people, catch fire and they, they get one 18, 20-point win.

• 50:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  But I think the other ones are gonna have very meaningful fourth quarter possessions. Because I was just, the CJ, the CJ McCollum effect is, is a real thing for them. They needed, they needed somebody like that with a lot of playoff experience, handling the ball in big moments, organizing them, you know, running a ball screen set or getting into an iso late in the clock and getting something quality. They, they needed that to, to go around some of these younger guys that they're, that they're playing and that they've seen grow. There, there, they get up and down the floor, they run, they've got some big time defenders on the perimeter, they can score, they've got, you know, a budding star player in Jalen Johnson.

• 50:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know that he's gonna, I don't know that he's gonna average 30. Like, is he ready for that in a series, in any six or seven game series? I don't think he's quite ready for that.

• 50:59Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  But maybe that's a year away. To me, very competitive series. I definitely would pick Cleveland to win that series, but I would be very surprised if that's a four game series, five game series. That would surprise me.

• 51:11Bill Simmons?

  The problem is you're going, there will be at least three, four games going in the last four minutes, and you've got McCollum against, against Mitchell, and I'm just, I, I really like McCollum, but you, the, the problem, if he's your guy in the last three minutes with some of the other guys that are in that conference, you know. Minnesota, Denver. So, I, I think I've said this to you, I thi, I think it's right now, Denver, OKC, San Antonio, not in that order, and Boston, and then we drop off to the next level of teams. I think those are the four teams that can win the title right now, and I don't really have anybody else in there. But, we have not seen a healthy Minnesota team in

• 51:53Bill Simmons?

  a while, and it looks like they're gonna be healthy for this Denver series. A team that they've had a lot of success against and a lot of confidence against the last couple of years. And if I'm Denver... I'm like, fuck. Like, we got the three seed, but now we're, we could have played the Lakers or Houston, but now we're ending up with Minnesota and Ant's coming back and McDaniels is back and here's Gobert again. And like, what the hell? How did this happen? Do you give Minnesota a chance in that series?

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it is weird in that, like, the reason, because the Lakers were playing great, Luca was playing great, they were rolling, they looked like they were going to be the three seed at one point, like, okay, they're gonna get three, man. So you go to four, five, you got Denver, Houston, I think they would have felt very good about that. And so they just keep playing, though, and they're winning and their offense is humming like it typically does, and they got their guys back and all that. And then because of what happens to the Lakers, they get three anyway. They just fall into the three because the Lakers just continue to drop back. So now you're gonna end up with this Minnesota series, most likely, I do think that's how it's gonna end up. And for Minnesota, and they're not playing great coming in to the playoffs, it's just in terms of like, winning and momentum and feeling that feeling

• 53:08Speaker 01

  every night. You know, health is the most important thing for any of these teams, regardless of how you're playing going in. But it is nice to be on a little bit of a roll. Minnesota really isn't, so they'd have to find that, closing games, winning games, like, in the heat of the playoffs against this team and figuring out a way to guard that team. It'd be tough. I mean, I think I definitely would favor Denver. I agree with you, by the way, the way you kind of ranked those teams and just put them in boxes, I agree with you, it's those three teams in the West. And Denver, I think for me, at one point, wasn't, they started to drop out of like, my certainty of including them with Oklahoma City and San Antonio. And now that they're back in that mix. Those three teams, and I agree with

• 53:48Speaker 01

  you, it's, Boston looks like the one team that could stand up to those teams. Like, in, coming out of the East, like, and legitimately play them tough enough and have enough on both ends of the floor to scare those teams.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  I would like Denver in that series. I know, you know, Minnesota though, if you're gonna get one team to play, that probably would be the team because just because of like your history with them and you know, you have solved that equation before. And I think that would give you a little bit of confidence going into that series, even though the way Denver's playing right now offensively might not matter.

• 54:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you'd have the confidence on D. You have Minnesota's best guy will think he's the best guy in the series, even though if that's not necessarily true, he will think that. Um, I, here's the thing, and I haven't given up on Denver and they've really tested me this year because I watch them a lot, as do you. Um, they still have another level to go up and they can flash it for like five minutes. Um, Gordon seems healthy to me finally. When they really need to play defense, they can. Their problem is they don't play defense like that for a while. And then when they have to, they do. When we get in the playoffs,

• 55:05Bill Simmons?

  they're gonna be fine. I worry about all the miles Murray put on this year as we get into like having to play eight to 10 more weeks. Like he, he had a lot of minutes. They've had, I think they had nine overtime games. I was looking up some of the MVP stuff and like Jokic, I think had 25 games where he's played 37 plus minutes or more. It's just a team that put a lot of miles in their two best guys, which scares me. Um, but Cam Johnson, he finally is starting to look like Cam Johnson again. And it, and that was the guy that I felt like was gonna be weirdly their swing guy because he's just gonna be open at the end of these games if he's not making shots. Now he's making them. Um, I think they're

• 55:47Bill Simmons?

  really, really, really good. I think they can beat San Antonio. Like I would probably pick Denver in a San Antonio series. I don't know where you stand on that.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Uh, too early. I saw, I really like.

• 55:56Bill Simmons?

  You want to see the first round?

• 55:58Speaker 01

  I do. I need to see the first round because there's just little things that matter to me. Like even if you win a series, like let's say Denver plays Minnesota and they just hypothetically, they say they win that series 4-2, whatever. And there's a couple of guys that for Denver that are like not shooting well like they didn't shoot well in the series and I'm thinking about what it's going to take against the San Antonio defense. So like things like that really matter to me like around the margins of your rotation. Who's, who's playing seven, eight, nine? Who are those guys? How are they playing? What kind of impact do they have? What's, what's, what's the matchup going to be? How much confidence going into round two? Does a coach still have in guys if they really couldn't make a shot for his series? Like stuff like that can change the way I think.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  So I'm going to wait on that based on how the first round goes.

• 56:46Bill Simmons?

  I think that's fair. I, my biggest hesitation with San Antonio is even what we saw the other night where Wemby got clipped and hurt his ribs and you know, he's at 1839 minutes.

• 57:00Bill Simmons?

  He played 37 plus minutes, five times this year, right? You get to the playoffs, your best guys are out there 38, 39, 40, 41. Like you can't fuck around. I thought it was really telling in that overtime game against Joker when they had to kind of keep him out there for the, and I just thought he looked gassed by the end of it. Cause they basically, they've been using him as like this pitcher on a pitch count all year. It's like you're throwing 90 pitches, five, six innings, we're getting you out. Our bullpen's going to take it home. That's, they just want him to have an awesome 29 to 30 every game. I don't think the playoffs work that way. And I really wonder at his age, he's not, he hasn't totally filled

• 57:44Bill Simmons?

  out yet to have to go every other night and really have to play 35 to 40 minutes a game. I don't know if he could do it and stay healthy. What do you think about?

• 57:53Speaker 01

  No, it's a good point. And look, I know he's had some, he's had success against both of those top teams and their defenses, but doing it over a course of a seven game series with that level of speed coming at you, you know, the number, the amount of traffic that they forced you to play in, right? And, and obviously everything's called a little bit differently. They're allowing, we're grabbing and holding and all of those things. A guy that's been around for a long time that, you know, if, and, and we'll get into the MVP talk too here in a second, but. The numbers on him as far as just total minutes played for the season. If he were to win MVP, it's like the only two guys lower are like, you gotta get back to Walton.

• 58:31Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  In like 77, 78.

• 58:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  And Embiid, I think Embiid, the year he won it.

• 58:36Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  To for just raw total number of minutes. So what you've put your body through and there's some look, there's, there's two ways to look at it. In one way, it's like, okay, your, your legs are a little bit fresher than some other guys who played 75, 80 games and were playing 34 minutes, right? You, you get that little break with the injury. You come back rejuvenated from that. Your legs feel a lot different when you're out a month in January and you come back early February. Your legs feel different. Like right now, Steph Curry's legs feel amazing.

• 59:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, it might be just too little, too late what they're gonna have to try to pull off. But he feels incredible and he's showing his way, he's moving and so he's got so much energy. Problem is that also the other downside to that is when you do now have to go play 35 to 40 minutes. Cause the are, these are pivotal games in these series where you're gonna have to leave him out there that long. The, the attrition of that, can the efficiency still stay the same against defenses this good? With this much activity, the number of guys that are gonna be in your lap the entire time. You're well coached, like there's, you're gonna make adjustments on how they wanna hit you with different things than, than they did the game before.

• 59:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Big challenge against these two defenses, man. There's a reason why those two teams won 60 games and you were looking at them as the two favorites to win it. There's a reason it's been, it's mainly because of their defenses and how different they look than most teams in this league.

• 1:00:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's, there was, I can't remember if it was last year or the year before, but Joker had so many miles on him. Remember his three point shot just went away as the playoffs went along?

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Cause he started losing his legs. Um, yeah.

• 1:00:14Bill Simmons?

  I look at the way SGA is at 2259 for minutes, like just ahead of Jokic. But SGA. I don't feel like they put a lot of miles on him during this season. There's a lot of fourth quarters you get to sit.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Bill Simmons?

  You know, he probably played less than 70 games. I don't even think he's at 70 yet. And I, I feel like he'll probably be the freshest of all the superstars. You mentioned the Wemby minutes. He's 101st in total minutes in the league. He's not even the top 100. He's played less minutes than Zion, Russell Westbrook and Sam Hauser. He's, he's played 400 minutes more than Luke Kornet, his backup setter. So, you know, we just don't know it. Meanwhile, Jokic, 35 plus minutes, 37 times. He's had nine 40 plus games. This is, I think this is part of the Jalen case for first team all NBA to me. He's played 37 plus minutes 25 times.

• 1:01:09Bill Simmons?

  This is a guy that not only is he out there, he's durable, he's playing big minutes. He's got, he leads the league and I think he's second in rim, driving to the rim. He's second in free throw attempts. Like he's just a physical force every night after night. I, I do think that matters with some of this stuff.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  No, it does matter. And I think, I think, look, what, what you haven't had to do with Wemby because of their incredible depth is tax him to that extent to win games. It's pretty incredible. I mean, you look at their team, I think three guys are averaging right, right about at 30 minutes. Nobody more than 31. And you look on any given night, he's got 11 guys that he can go to with confidence. And now even the way Carter Bryant's been playing and, you know, each, he's another guy that you, in a playoff, now will he trust him in a playoffs? He's so young, I don't know. He, I made it, you know, made a crack on the air. He made five out of six threes last night. And this is true. I look, cause I did the math on a piece of paper, like real quick.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  He took his three point percentage from 30 to 33 in one game.

• 1:02:15Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Like in, at the end of the season, cause he hasn't taken that many, but he's gonna have to because they're not guarding him out there. He's a freak athlete, really good defender. But like, that's another 10, 12 minutes of raw athletic ability. If you want to throw them out there. Nobody has to get overstressed on their team. Everybody's in. The twenties, it's kind of incredible the way that they do it. And so will he now have to do that? Wemby, does he have to get extended to thirty five, thirty seven minutes in these games? When their depth and defense has been so good and overwhelming and their offense too. They haven't really had to and maybe in Mitch Johnson's mind, he's thinking, no, we're not going to have to do that. Because we're good enough to keep doing what we're doing.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  We just did it for a course of a season. We're very confident that we can operate the way we need to. Particularly when your barometer is Oklahoma City and you've played so well against them. Like what else do you really need to know? Like that's the, that's the ultimate challenge. Can we play against that team? They've played really well against them. So maybe they don't feel like they have to change their formula up and Wemby can stay. Playing twenty eight minutes, thirty minutes, you know, that kind of thing.

• 1:03:23Bill Simmons?

  Cornet was a great signing. He was obviously a very valuable Celtic. Carter Bryant, just really quick, let's not spend more than twenty seconds on this. So you saw him in person last night. It's a fucking big dude. Like it's kind of shocking, right? It seems like he's like six, ten and he's thick already. Like I, I think he might end up being like a stretch five in five years. I don't know. I'm prepared for anything with that guy's career.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Bill, he was the only player I called eight games in Vegas last summer. He was the only player I saw. That completely jumped off the page athletically in what I was looking at. He was in a completely different category. And I saw, I was like, wow, man, this guy, I actually said like his future. You're looking at a guy that down the road is an all league. One of those teams caliber defensive player. I believe he's going to get there. Because he is big. He's got, he's one of those guys that moves and runs and you don't hear his shoes. Cause he's so light on his feet. And if he, if he, and by the way, his release looks so good, like this great rotation.

• 1:04:31Bill Simmons?

  I love that.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  He stays with the shot. He, he, look, he's not going to have a lot of five for six three point shooting nights, but he's, his future is very, very bright. And the fact that he's played more minutes, literally in every month as the season's gone on. Little bit of a dip here in April, but prior to that, every month his minutes went up. It told you a lot on a team this good.

• 1:04:51Bill Simmons?

  And how just thick and strong he is for a rookie. It makes no sense.

• 1:04:57Bill Simmons?

  So Celtics, we'll do this quick and then we'll do MVP Celtics 2-7. Could be Orlando now. Maybe Charlotte, we're gonna see some moving around. They'd beat Orlando. The problem with Orlando is that would be a physical series. They're gonna knock people around. They're gonna try to street fight it, which I'm not too excited about. Charlotte, on the other hand, you know, they bullied them a couple of games ago. I thought Jalen, Charlotte was up 10 like late in the third quarter and the Celtics, the two wings really, I thought, took over the game and bullied them a little bit.

• 1:05:39Bill Simmons?

  That's a winnable series too, which as a basketball aficionado, what Boston matchup is more exciting to you, Boston Orlando or Boston Charlotte?

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Charlotte.

• 1:05:52Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Whoever Charlotte plays.

• 1:05:54Bill Simmons?

  Me too.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  You know, they can't even get Detroit as a 1-8 and with what went down earlier this year with the fight and all that.

• 1:06:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  You know, so even if, even if you think, okay, that was a one-off event, there's no history there. It doesn't matter. That stuff absolutely is in the air. By the time you get to, you know, early game three, guys are already sick of each other. Like they got some guys that talk, you know, that, that to me could be like the most entertaining matchup we could get. But it's Charlotte and anybody because of just how fun they are. And by the way, like they're, what they've done in their record for like over half a season is so incredibly impressive because it's been both ends of the floor. The metrics are there on both ends. This isn't just a team that all of a sudden caught fire offensively, but they don't guard. They want to win games 135, 130. They can do it another way.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  They just finally clicked. It all came together. They've got, and they, they helped themselves. Kobe White, that's a great pickup. The Abate is a perfect guy to play in the middle. And then there's other four offensive players that they have in the starting lineup. They all look like they like each other. They're having fun. That, whoever they play, that to me is the, is like the one, you know, high seed, low seed matchup in the first round that you can't miss. You can't miss any of those games, whoever Charlotte's playing. So that's why, for me, it's like, I think your best bet is to try to avoid them. I mean, not that you can avoid them, but if you don't end up with them.

• 1:07:22Bill Simmons?

  I don't want to see them because you figure two games, they hit 20 plus threes and God only knows in those games. There'll be one game where they're home and they're just awesome.

• 1:07:32Bill Simmons?

  Detroit, I feel bad for because they're the one seed. They're probably going to play somebody good and they're going to be shoehorning Cade back into this, really without a ramp up. And I just, I've seen too many basketball seasons. No matter, it's like, oh, well, Cade will be back. They'll have him healthy and it's okay, but you're shoehorning him into this team that's just been playing without him for five weeks. It always gets a little wonky those first couple of games. So I feel like somebody could throw a haymaker at them right away.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  You're talking about injecting a guy, like I love the guy and he would be, he'd be the, you know, if, if he ends up, you know, being a guy that, you know, I guess, is he going to fall short of the games?

• 1:08:13Bill Simmons?

  He's falling short. Yeah, it's not happening.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  He's going to fall short. So if he's not eligible, you know, he would, he would have been an all league player. He would have been, you know, I don't, he wouldn't have been necessarily as high up in MVP voting as some of these other guys, but you had to, would consider him as number one seed of the East in the year he had. But here's the, here's the thing to your point. You're now taking a guy and you're basically reinfusing him into your offense.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  And he takes seven more shots a night than everybody else on the team. So you're talking about a guy that like, from a usage standpoint, an importance to your offense standpoint, like he's in that category with guys like Shay and Jokic to his team. Like what do you do without Cade Cunningham? If you have to navigate the Eastern Conference playoffs, how are you going to settle games? Cade Cunningham is the guy that does that for them and he takes a lot more shots than anybody else in the team.

• 1:09:05Bill Simmons?

  Now you have Jenkins like, hey, look at me. Look over here. I got this. And now he's, I don't know. It'll be, it'll be weird. Everybody's kind of settled into the new version of the Pistons without him. And obviously Cade comes back, it's his team again, but I don't know. It's still a little awkward.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  You think there's any chance Detroit, Charlotte, first round, Charlotte wins that series?

• 1:09:27Bill Simmons?

  I do.

• 1:09:29Bill Simmons?

  I do. I, I, I wonder with Detroit, we've seen this over the years. A team that's a really, really good regular season team, but then the playoffs, when you have to do this, you can't, you're just still here. And it's like Denver, we know is here and as soon as the playoffs starts, they're going to go up. I kind of think Detroit is who they are every game, which is fine. And by the way, it worked and they're going to win 60 games. But I think when I think of a Detroit Charlotte matchup, isn't that the worst possible team for Detroit? Where they have like these two awesome wings and the weakness of your team is your wings. And now I just, I don't like that. I think that's one reason why I like the Celtics against Detroit too,

• 1:10:13Bill Simmons?

  is because I just think the wings are so much better than Detroit's wings. That's at some point just becomes a real disadvantage.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Well, what they're going to have to solve is you get into a series and game by game, teams figure out even more ways to make sure the guys they want left open are left open.

• 1:10:34Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  And Detroit has a few of those guys and they're guys that they have to play because that's their style. They get into people, they, they force turnovers and run, they get on the offensive glass. Like their wings crash from the wings in the opposite corners, but they, that's, that's their formula. Get to the line, get points in the paint. Well, if you're now playing a team that's well coached and they do some of those things well, they, they, they, they secure their own defensive glass. They don't give up points in the paint. They don't turn the ball over. I just described Boston in a lot of ways. They don't do those things. And now you've got a guy like Missoula is like, and okay, let's look at this team. Pistons, okay, they play one game. Let's look at the film. Okay.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  Here's how we can make sure that the ball gets funneled to certain places and we're going to face guard Duncan Robinson. No help responsibility. Like he's not going to be part of this. Like if you look at their team, they make 11 threes a night. 11. They, they win games sometimes where they make seven, six. That's gonna be hard against teams like Boston. You get a team like Cleveland. You, you get some of these, Charlotte. You get some of these teams that are gonna shoot 40, 45 threes. And it's gonna be nice that they're gonna make 15, 18, maybe 20. And you're making seven, eight, nine, 10? That is a lot to overcome. And so that's to me is the big challenge for them. How exposed is their lack of shooting? Once they get into a series.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  By the way, look, for Detroit. I, I don't know if Charlotte could beat them or not. I know that would be a very scary series for them. It'd be what a hell of a series. I don't fear as much Philly without a bead. I don't feel Orlando, fear Orlando for them. I don't fear Miami. So really you're talking about, this is the one team.

• 1:12:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  If you're the one seed. If that's the one team that ends up eight, that's just bad luck for you. Because I think those other three teams, I think you'll just do your thing. Especially Philly without a bead. And you're gonna be fine. Charlotte is a scarier team. Because of the way that they could just really just put you, hit you with an onslaught of offense.

• 1:12:39Bill Simmons?

  The other thing with Detroit is just the lack of guys who can create their own shot in a half court. And it's a lot of Tobias Harris, who I think's been really good for them this year. But it's a little like what you mentioned with Harden before in the playoffs. We've kind of seen Tobias Harris in the playoffs. So that would worry me too. Last thing, and then we gotta take a break. Um, I've just, we, we haven't, we talked about Tatum three weeks ago, the last time you were on. And we're doing this right before the next game today. So I don't know what, what's happening in that game. Um, I'm, I like, to me, he seems all the way back now. And it's not even like, ah, he's 95% there. There's a couple of things missing.

• 1:13:22Bill Simmons?

  I think he's back like for real. And if anything, like he's added a couple of small things that I don't think he necessarily had in the same way last year. Like his, his rebounding and his passing is like slightly better. And I honestly, like it's like, one of the most amazing comebacks I can remember watching in real time, even like thinking back to the first two games he had this year versus where he is now, where it's just like, he's back. Um, did you ever in your, in your wildest dreams, think this would be how, how this played out?

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  No, not at all. I mean, I, you know, I, I'm picturing him all that time where we're kind of waiting. I mean, it became more apparent. He was going to try this. And it was kind of like, better right away, in a lot of ways. I was just kind of like, man, like especially like he's, this guy's going to traffic and rebounding the ball.

• 1:14:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Like, you know, you, you do something like that. Like, you don't really want to be jumping around other people. And mentally, and pushing off to go get rebounds and stuff. So I was like, man, his rebounding was great. The offense definitely looked like he was favoring how he was landing on drives.

• 1:14:32Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  And, and as a result, it was affecting his concentration at the rim. And I thought, yeah, that's pretty normal. And guess what? That might not come back until next year. Because that is, that takes some time to shake that off where all of a sudden, you find, and I just, and it's not the same injury. I was not the same level player, but they coming back from three torn ligaments in your knee at the same time, like I did, and missed 10 months. And I thought I was going to miss the entire next season. I came back in like February.

• 1:15:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  And I remember that game, when it finally was like, I was not thinking anymore about anything. And I was just playing basketball. I thought that was going to be next year for Jason Tatum. Like, you're going to have to live with it. And maybe it costs him in the playoffs, because he's still going to be playing a lot, but he's not going to be himself. And maybe it costs you when the raise, when the, you know, the, the margins get so thin against these teams. Well, I got news for you, man. He's now five, last five games, he's right about 50, 40, 80 splits. He's been rebounding the ball great ever since he came back.

• 1:15:37Bill Simmons?

  Lex, he might be, he might be a top 10 rebounder.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Like credible his rebounding numbers.

• 1:15:43Bill Simmons?

  Like he's 10 to 15 a game, like pretty consistently.

• 1:15:49Bill Simmons?

  The, the, the stretch five piece of him. In the playoffs, I wonder how much we're going to see. Like, like that might be their, their version of the lineup of death.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Where they have Kada. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:04Bill Simmons?

  Cause I, they'll test Vucevic the last couple of games here and see what they have. He looks too slow to me. I don't know if he's going to be playable in the playoffs. I think they'll keep feeling it out, but my guess is when they get to the higher rounds, he's out. Which will leave Kada, Garza maybe, but really Tatum. Doing a lot of stretch five stuff and they've thrown it out a few times and it's like. Okay. Cause you know, they can still rebound when he's the center.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Well, you look at the top teams, they're going to have to play. Um, if they were to employ that lineup, but it's, it's not going to be something you're going to hit him with all night. But if they can selectively use it in games strategically. You look at Detroit, Cleveland and the Knicks, those three teams and like you, you ask yourself, well. How hard is this going to be for them to guard? Extremely. Extremely. If you've got the Knicks lineup that they want to play most of the night. That's going to be very difficult for them to guard. Same with Cleveland. Because they like to play two bigs a lot and that's going to be very difficult. The ground coverage and playing guys off the dribble. It's going to be hard, even with a guy as versatile as Mobley, that's going to be hard for them to pull off. And then, so then you say, what about the other end? Well.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, Cleveland, you could be susceptible in the offensive glass. Like that could be a problem, but they're so, Boston is so good at the details of the game. Chipping on guys and getting, getting, you know, between them in the basket and making them come over your back. And there's just the little details that it takes when you do play small.

• 1:17:33Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  Excel at that stuff, you know? So I think the, the, the risk reward. Is more reward for them. And I think you are going to see that lineup sometimes. How much? We'll see, but I don't know that they're that worried about getting beat up at the other end by playing a small lineup.

• 1:17:51Bill Simmons?

  Mitchell Robinson would be the one guy that it might be a mistake against.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Nobody's keeping him off the glass.

• 1:17:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's where you're going to need Kate in this series. All right, we're taking a break and then I want to play the MVP game with you. Welcome to crunch time presented by Tax Act where we break down the NBA's final stretch and spotlight the players and teams feeling the heat before the playoffs. Tax Act helps you handle the final stretch of tax season with tools that make sure you maximize your refund and come out on top on April 15th. All right. Who has the most pressure to perform in the playoffs? I am looking at two teams. They're both in the Eastern Conference. They both have pushed a lot of chips into this season. The New York Knicks, who traded all those picks for Mikal Bridges, basically built

• 1:18:42Bill Simmons?

  to compete and try to win a title right now. And if they don't win, we'll see, are they a Yanis team over the summer? And then Cleveland, who was already all in, does the Harden for Garland trade, has some playoff kind of bad stuff that happened the last couple of years. And if that happens again, who knows with them? So I would say those two teams have the most pressure of anybody. That was crunch time presented by Tax Act, helping you beat the buzzer, maximize your returns and hit a game winner during the final stretch of tax season. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details.

• 1:19:56Bill Simmons?

  All right, last thing, we're gonna talk MVP. You're not gonna tell us your vote cuz you're saving it. But I have, this is something I started the mid 2000s where I had little questions that I tried to ask myself to set the MVP order in my head. And I did this, I think in the 06 season, I think was the first time I did this, which was the year Kobe averaged 35 a game, and I think he finished fourth in MVP. Steve Nash won for the second straight year. Dirk was on a good Dallas team that ended up making the finals. And then young LeBron was in there too. And it was like, nobody kinda really knew who the MVP was, and I really thought it was Kobe.

• 1:20:37Bill Simmons?

  So I came up with these questions, and I'm gonna go through them with you. I've added a fifth question, which I did not have before, but anyway. So we'll start here. We agree it's SGA, Joker, and Wemby. Those are the three. Luca's out, so we have three candidates for the MVP spot, right?

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  Unless, listen, unless, unless Luca, you know, they're talking about, right? Trying to appeal, and because he missed two games for the birth of his daughter and all that. So unless they, unless they win that, which I don't know how that's gonna play out, but that's what they're saying, like, he's gonna, they're trying to figure out a way to get some sort of an exception.

• 1:21:15Bill Simmons?

  You wouldn't vote him top three, would you?

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  I think he, I think if he, I'd put it this way. If Luca ends up being eligible, I think you, I think then there's, there's a four. There's four guys that you have to talk about. That's how I would describe it. You can't dismiss him and say he's not in the top three, particularly with, with what he did over the last, like, month of the season, and how differently we viewed the Lakers as a result of that. And I would say yes, he needs to be included in the top four.

• 1:21:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I've already said where I stood on this, Lex. He got 16 technicals, cost himself a game. Maybe he should learn his lesson.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  That's fair. Absolutely.

• 1:21:54Bill Simmons?

  Maybe behave yourself better on the court, Luca.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  That is, listen, man, that is very, very fair. There's no, I have no rebuttal to that at all. And I'm not certainly, this isn't my campaign for Luca for MVP. But I am, I am considering myself pretty like unbiased about this stuff. It is what it is to me. And I just think, I think the way he played his, his numbers. And then the big thing was, are the Lakers ever gonna look legit? And they, they did it to me for so long, but then their offense got so good. Primarily because his efficiency picked up that like, okay, I think he's played himself into the race. But you know, he might not, they might not make that exception for him anyway. And maybe it's a moot point.

• 1:22:36Bill Simmons?

  I agree with you. I had him, when he got hurt, I had him 3A, 3B with Jokic. And then Jokic went up and Luca went back down because he got hurt. Um, all right, the MVP questions.

• 1:22:50Bill Simmons?

  Question number one. If you replaced each MVP candidate with a decent player at his position for the entire season, what would be the hypothetical effect negatively on his team's record? So sometimes this question doesn't necessarily qualify. Usually if you feel like, oh, if you take this guy out, they would be 20 games worse. That's usually what we think. All right. So I'm going to give you the players. SGA, that team, OKC, 64 and 16. Let's replace them with Brandon Pizemski. For the entire year. SGA is out.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  I didn't know you were gonna do this.

• 1:23:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah. No, I'm throwing, yeah, I'm going specific at you. Brandon Pizemski is now in the SGA spot and probably a little more AJ Mitchell. And everything else is the same. Jalen Williams still gets hurt. Um, you have all the other guys. It's the exact same season, but I've replaced SGA. How many, how many wins does OKC have?

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  With everything else on the.

• 1:23:52Bill Simmons?

  Everything is exactly the same. I'm just replacing.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Exactly as it did this season, including the lack of availability of Jalen Williams?

• 1:23:58Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Okay. How many games would they win? My goodness, this is a tough one.

• 1:24:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So figure AJ Mitchell gets more of the SGA minutes in this hypothetical world. And Brandon Pizemski is probably off the bench. AJ Mitchell is probably starting.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  Man, oh man.

• 1:24:18Bill Simmons?

  Sixty-four and sixteen is the record right now.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Mid-fifties?

• 1:24:26Bill Simmons?

  I had.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Upper fifties?

• 1:24:27Bill Simmons?

  I had fifty-three and twenty-nine.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  Okay, that's probably right.

• 1:24:31Bill Simmons?

  All right, so we.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Because I'm looking at it, I'm looking at it like, you know, they, the way they play is so unique, like they, they were, I believe they were eight and four without him.

• 1:24:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  When he didn't play at all, you didn't replace him with anybody. So you put a player like Pajemski and is, you know, decent player.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  You look at that and the way that they defend, but

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  driving that offense. So I, that's why I said mid-fifties, you said fifty-three, we're probably, we're about the same. I might give him a little bit, a win or two more than you.

• 1:25:05Bill Simmons?

  Wemby. Pulling him out, I'm replacing him with a Kangu from the Hawks. That's who their center is. Now they have a center combo of, of Kangu and, uh, and Luke Cornet. They are sixty-one and nineteen right now. What's their record if we make that switch?

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  They probably win

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  fifty.

• 1:25:32Bill Simmons?

  Okay, I had forty-seven. At forty-seven and thirty-five, but you, maybe you're right. So we'll put it somewhere in there, forty-seven to fifty.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  I've been so impressed with, with, like, that, that to me might be the best, um, this year, connected team in the league.

• 1:25:51Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Talk about role acceptance and just like the vibe around their team. It's kind of like exactly what we felt about Oklahoma City last year. I'm not saying Oklahoma City's lost that, but this feels like the version of that this season. So I, I just, I wouldn't put a much, much past them. I still think they could get to fifty.

• 1:26:10Bill Simmons?

  We replaced Nikola Jokic for the entire season with a Kangu. We'll use the same center. We also have half a year for Aaron Gordon and some of the other stuff that happened. Right now, they're 52 and 28. What's their record? With a Kangu? I can't wait for your answer on this because I was surprised by my own answer.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Forty-three and 39?

• 1:26:36Bill Simmons?

  Oh, wow, you went over 500?

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I think they could still be 500.

• 1:26:42Bill Simmons?

  So I only have 35 Aaron Gordon games, Jamal Murray, all the role players, and I don't have Jokic, and you still think they can get to 45? Wow.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  But I said 43, I said 43.

• 1:26:55Bill Simmons?

  Forty-three. I had 35 for that one.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  I think that's too low.

• 1:27:00Bill Simmons?

  In the West, night after night?

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  I think that's too low.

• 1:27:04Bill Simmons?

  All right, well, you so you basically had everybody dropping off by 10 to 12 wins. So that so question number one is out. I do think Jokic probably means the most to the three of the day to day success with all the stuff he does for them would be. But I guess maybe you could say that would 1 be too. All right, so that question's out. Um, all right, this is a good one. Question number two. In a giant pickup game with every NBA player available and two knowledgeable fans forced to pick five man teams and their lives depend on the game's outcome, who would be the first player picked based on how everyone played that year? First player pick, my life depends on the game.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  You want to do first player picks for each team?

• 1:27:52Bill Simmons?

  No, first player pick. We get everybody in the league. I could take anybody and my life depends on the game based on how they played this season only.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Well, for me, it's between Jokic and Shay.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  And you said, wait, the key word, you said knowledgeable NBA fans?

• 1:28:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that, that we both qualify for that. No, no, this qualifies.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  You know, because if you're just standing here in the eye test and they don't know as much about the league as they need to, and you're looking at Wemby and Jokic and Shay.

• 1:28:24Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:28:26Bill Simmons?

  True.

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  If you know the league,

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  I'd probably say Jokic.

• 1:28:33Bill Simmons?

  I would as well.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd probably say Jokic.

• 1:28:38Bill Simmons?

  Wemby third, but it's, I'm too worried about, I need to fill the 17 other minutes that is not playing. Jokic, I know I'm getting 40 minutes. I can run and I can put any kind of team around him. And, uh, and he's been the most, I think,

• 1:28:56Bill Simmons?

  I think he's just been more consistent than Wemby.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  I think, I think the biggest reason for me would be under that exact scenario is I'm looking at them and I'm going, okay. With him being the first pick, it doesn't really matter as much at that point, what I end up with around him.

• 1:29:15Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  Because everybody's going to be able to play with him and do their thing and not just stand and spot up. They're going to be able to play and move and play basketball. And his just natural inclination for making guys better and reading the floor is like all fits, no matter who he plays with.

• 1:29:34Bill Simmons?

  You just described why he probably should have been the MVP every year this, this decade, but we'll keep going. Question three. So I had Jokic as well, by the way. Question three, if you're explaining your MVP pick to someone who has a favorite player in the race and your pick was a different player, will he or she at least say something like, "I don't like your pick, but I at least see how you arrived at that choice." So I came up with this question in 2008. I thought, I thought Kevin Garnett was the MVP.

• 1:30:04Bill Simmons?

  Kobe ended up winning. It was the one time I was a little too homer-y with, because I was watching so much Celtics and the more you watch the same team, you're just like, oh, you don't understand all the stuff he does. And I don't think I got it right. I don't think I looked at it logically enough because I think I overrated how much I was watching KG. KG was awesome, but that team was really good. They could survive him not being there for a game or two. I actually, if I had to do that again, I might actually vote for Chris Paul that year on the Pelicans. Or the Hornets, I guess they were the New Orleans Hornets that year. It was basically just him and David West and Tyson Chandler. It's just, and Chris Paul did everything and he was just so fucking awesome that year. Anyway.

• 1:30:50Bill Simmons?

  I think people would see the SGA case. If you're explaining it.

• 1:30:56Bill Simmons?

  I think they would see the Jokic case because you could go into like, hey, this guy's already won two MVPs. This is the best offensive year he's ever had. He's going to lead the league in rebounds and assists. He's going to be fourth or fifth in points. He does everything for them. He's actually gotten better from an efficiency, everything standpoint than all the other years when he was already an all-time great. That's the case for him. And they're a three seed, which I think matters. The Wemby case, the minutes thing hurts it.

• 1:31:26Bill Simmons?

  Would people, if you were explaining the Wemby case, would people at least see it?

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  Okay. I love this question. I'm going to start with just myself and knowing myself. And I do think I'm, I'm pretty good about, hey, man, let's debate it. Let's make our case. And it's an opinion. At the end of the day, it's subjective. Just make valid points that make sense. And I'm going to hear you out. I'm going to think that's, that's a well-played argument. And who knows who's right because it's just an opinion. I think I'm good about that. Sometimes I'll really dig in if I'm just like, no, you literally don't know what you're talking about. For the most part, I think I'm good about that. I will say this, I don't think when it comes to this topic, and this isn't just the average NBA fan, because those people clearly, like you're in the corner of some

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  team or some player, good luck convincing him of anything other than their guy is the guy.

• 1:32:17Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  That's impossible. But that's like social media world, but I'm talking about even inside the industry. The people that do this every day, they watch it, they break it down, they do it on TV, radio, they write about it, whatever it may be. It's your job to do it, to know it. I'm finding it's almost becoming very, almost like politics in this country now, except instead of two parties, there's like four parties. And like, you're not convincing someone that's trying to make their case about one of these guys from people. You're just not doing it. It feels like that, there's a lot less of that, where you're kind of like listening, that's actually a really good point. You might not change your mind, but you might say, hey, you know what? That's a really good argument. I hadn't really considered that. That's a good argument. That's

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  probably the best case you could make for your guy. I still kind of like my guy, and here's why. That's, I felt like it was more of that before. That's not what I'm sensing now. And, and just turn on any media outlet on the course of a day and just watch, because this topic is so prevalent right now. Who's going to win MVP? It is going to be really fascinating race to see how this plays out. My goodness, are people dug in on their guy. And there is no other answer, other than their guy. So I actually disagree.

• 1:33:29Bill Simmons?

  So maybe I dumped this question. Maybe we're all just too, well, just, it's a great question, but maybe people don't even want to hear other arguments once they decide.

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  No, I love the question, Bill, because that's how it should be. And I just don't feel like people are coming to the table to discuss this stuff with really an open mind. And again, look, let's be honest. If you made up your mind about something, you're an intelligent person, whether it's politics or sports, you know, debate about MVP, or whatever the hell it is, the best dog breed, okay, and you're a Jack Russell guy, and I'm a Golden Retriever guy. You're coming to the table, you, it's very rare that you're going to be talked into changing your opinion, right? Because it's based on so many things. But at least, you can, you can, I guess.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Give the person more validity if they vote a different way. Like, that's valid. That's how you feel and you made a great arguments. That's valid that you're doing that. I feel like more and more people just try to discredit you if you don't agree with them. And they try to tell you why you don't know what the hell you're talking about. And I feel like that is more prevalent than it's ever been. So I don't know that any of these conversations with people from different camps of these players. I don't know that you get anybody to really genuinely be like, well, yeah, you know what? Actually, I see where you're coming from. And, you know, if you vote that way, yeah, that's valid. That makes sense. I don't know that people are doing that as much as they used to. I feel like they're just dug in. I know what I'm talking about. You don't.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  And that feels like more of what the tone of it all is now.

• 1:35:08Bill Simmons?

  It's funny because I feel that way about Rookie of the Year.

• 1:35:12Bill Simmons?

  I can't believe Flag is favored versus Khan, who's the second best guy on a playoff team that's going to win like 46, 47 games. He's going to lead the league in threes. I think he's the key to that team in a lot of ways because he's the only one that really moves. And if he wasn't the one, the gravity that he brings when he moves around and how defenses react to him, you have to have it for how they play. And if you don't, it's just a bunch of guys standing around watching LaMelo dribble. And then Flag, who I think is, I love Flag. He's fantastic, but he's doing this on a, basically a tanking lottery team that's going

• 1:35:53Bill Simmons?

  to win 25 games and now is trying to build their team around him trying to win the award. And it's like, if you want to vote for that, fine, but I, you have this situation of a rookie having like a historic season who's really important to a team that's been one of the best teams in the league for 45 games now. And I don't understand how that's not Rookie of the Year because Flag scores two more points a game? It's just bizarre.

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  I'll tell you this, Khan Kinnipal has blown my mind with like his ceiling as a player and his impact. You're 100% right, first of all, in how you described him with their team. He connects all of their talent base. He connects it all because of his unique way of playing that fits with what they do. He's also More complete in other ways and anytime you talk to Charles Lee or you just watch him, you see it. He can put it down. He can guard. He's a good rebounder.

• 1:36:49Bill Simmons?

  He rebounds.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  He's, he's, you know, his, his, his mind for the game is off the charts. He makes great reads, very decisive. So he's a complete player and he's also a prolific shooter. I mean, I think he's, I think he makes more threes per game. I think I said this to you one other time, maybe it took Curry seven years in the league to make this many threes per game. Now the league has changed. Obviously the volume is way up, but you know, this record that Curry, you know, whatever that number is at when he's done, that when he was breaking this record and surpassing 2000 and 3000 and now 4000, like you, you're like, well, that's never going to be broken. And then you get a guy right out of the gate.

• 1:37:27Bill Simmons?

  He's gonna have 280, yeah.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  If this dude plays 18 years, like some of these guys are playing now, like, hey, maybe he does it. But so I am shocked by how good he is, man. I really am.

• 1:37:39Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, it's not, it's not a rejection of Flag. Like unfortunately, he's on a bad team. And we've had years like Tyreek Evans won on a bad team, put up stats. And I don't think Flag is a put up stats kind of guy. Like one of the things I love about him is he's impactful on both ends. But unfortunately, he's on a 25 win team. And if there's a better candidate.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  I'm going to be full disclosure with you. I am, I am, I think more undecided about not award than any of them.

• 1:38:09Bill Simmons?

  Interesting. Cause Flag's so good.

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  So here's why. Everything you said about Canipal is true. And I personally do, and I argue for this all the time. When you come, when it comes to some of these awards, I do think like impact on a winning team is, should carry a lot of weight because the circumstances and the scrutiny are completely different on a nightly basis. You're expecting to win. Like you've got more pressure on you in the fourth quarter. These shots matter. So, so it's contributing to something like bigger than yourselves in a positive direction, right? So I do think it should matter. And that will be something that I absolutely will weigh heavily for Con Canipal. The one thing I will say about Cooper Flag that is different to me, like Cooper Flag's responsibility for their team to just operate.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  Is, is, you can't compare that with like what, what can nipples has to do because you've got LaMelo Ball there. You've got a guy like Miller. You've got other guys that can initiate offense. Not that he doesn't too, but he's like can kinda, you know, he fills in the open spots around that and he's great at that. And will he become a guy that can be a table setter initiator? I don't know. Maybe. He's been so damn good this year. Who knows what his ceiling is. But Cooper flag, like, think about their team. And I know that they look, they're a lottery bound team and they, they shut it down a while ago. So none of the, none of the games had stakes. There's nothing at play in the fourth quarters of these games. But the bottom line is that team couldn't even operate unless Cooper flag created it.

• 1:39:38Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  All season. So, so that level of responsibility, stepping into the league as a teenager and, and, and having that level of responsibility, like, no, hey, listen, man, it's great. You can't just go out there and play and find your way in this league. We really need you to bring the ball up and like start our offense and finish our offense. Can you do that, please? And also guard everybody for us.

• 1:39:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Guard everybody on the floor. So, so like that to me is like the, and, and I also think if you're talking about ceilings of the two players, like five years from now.

• 1:40:09Bill Simmons?

  No question. Flags had a chance to be a generational player. I agree.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  Totally dog. He's a franchise level player.

• 1:40:17Bill Simmons?

  This is why I love this stuff though, because we, they, they hand out a hundred votes. Everybody sees it differently. I personally see it as if you can be really good and actually impact a winning team, I'm just going to prioritize that more. Other people will be like, well, it's not Cooper's fault that he's on a bad team. You're penalizing him. It's not like he picked the team he's on and he's played great. He's, so I get it. I just think for me, it's like a no brainer. I would take Khan.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  And can I, can I, can I, I have to be remiss without mentioning one more name. If this guy went to a team, nope.

• 1:40:56Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  If this guy went to a team that was a 27 win team and had the ball in his hip from day one.

• 1:41:06Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  He would absolutely be in this conversation with these two guys and that's Dylan Harper. If Dylan Harper, I'm telling you, he's that good. This is a future star.

• 1:41:17Bill Simmons?

  I agree.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  If, if he went to a team where they just let him go, I think this year, if he was on one of these teams that like, you know, is inconsequential. He probably is, he might be 22 and eight. Like literally, you know, he has shot, he shot 59% from the field over his last 30 games.

• 1:41:39Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  In, in 22 minutes a game, when, when like, it's just, it blows my mind. Now, his three point shooting significantly better over, that's still his weakness. It's gotten better over the last six weeks or so, but 59% over 30 games. You can't keep the guy out of the lane. He's got great vision. He's built like a tank. I, I just, I'm sitting here watching this guy the other night. I've seen him four, four or five times in person this year and I'm just watching him and I'm thinking, he's on a team that's contending for a championship. He still has cracked 22 minutes out of this rotation. They're perfectly comfortable with him being out there on the floor with Castle and Fox to get a blow. He's that good. And if he was on a team that lets let him go from day one,

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  he'd be putting up such eye popping numbers as a rookie that he would, who knows? Hell, he might be able to win the award, but he'd be right there in this conversation with these two guys.

• 1:42:34Bill Simmons?

  It reminds me of when Mikhail was on the Celtics, his first year when the team just had so many guys. He was playing like 20, 21 minutes a game. But if he had just gone to another team, would have put up like 24 and 10 as a rookie. I think this is a better situation for Harper being in the situations than though. I, I would much rather have somebody.

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:42:57Bill Simmons?

  In huge games trying to come through.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  Right, because here's the thing, you're not talking about, he's, you know, he's played 38 games, he's got 40 DNPs.

• 1:43:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  And he plays seven minutes a night on a team that's contending. No, that, that is not better.

• 1:43:12Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  But to be actually, and he's played something like, I think it was something like 13 or 14 straight games, he's played over 20 minutes. Like, he's averaging 22 for the year. He has a ton of responsibility and opportunities in the course of the game, but it's not riding on him. And most importantly, the, the, the culture and the standard effort that this team is setting, that is so good for a young player. To see it and to play consequential games right out of the gate and something really meaningful where, you know, there's a good chance this team is playing, you know, into the conference finals at least. And you're playing a lot, there's no doubt about it. That's absolutely better than any other scenario, really. You can have it other than if you're, you know, you're starting on a

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  team that's contending as a rookie, which is very.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

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• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  Rare.

• 1:44:29Bill Simmons?

  Two more MVP questions. We sidetracked on Rookie of the Year. Question before I added this one. Is there some sort of durability, minutes issue, on off numbers, red flag, or fairly obvious flaw with any candidate that has to be dissected at least a little? So this would be like when Jalen Brown had a candidacy.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Jalen Brown would be the only one.

• 1:44:49Bill Simmons?

  But he was like the on off stuff with him, which I actually think was pretty explainable because the, the way they used their bench, it was like this pack of pit bulls that would come in. And I think it would really screwed other teams up during the regular season. Regardless, he's not a candidate. So the minutes.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  But in that kind of year, I still wouldn't expect it to be what it is. It really is a weird number.

• 1:45:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's really weird.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  For a guy that's had such a great year.

• 1:45:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:11Speaker 01

  It's really kind of strange, like, because it's so different than the other three.

• 1:45:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So here, the minutes is the big thing and I think the minutes disqualify Wemby, where he's just 400 plus minutes behind the other two guys. And I think it's just in a better situation playing the, you know, 29, 30 minutes game. All right, last one, question five. This is a big one.

• 1:45:35Bill Simmons?

  10 years from now, who will be the first player from that season who pops into your head? Every season belongs to someone to varying degrees. So this was mostly the case for Kobe in 06. When it was like, I can't really decide. It's like, you know what I'm gonna remember 10 years from now? Kobe scored 35 points a night and every night seemed to be a threat to, to score 80. And didn't seem necessarily even that happy and the team had a weird vibe. And you go back and you look at the roster and it was pretty awful.

• 1:46:08Bill Simmons?

  But watching him night after night, just pick teams apart, destroy them and do whatever he wanted. Like that, I'm gonna remember that first. What's first for you this year as we head into the final weekend?

• 1:46:20Speaker 01

  It'll definitely be Wemby.

• 1:46:22Bill Simmons?

  I had the same.

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  There's no question about it because, because, okay, look at the year that Shays had. Incredible. Basically carbon copy last year, but even more efficient. So even, even better somehow. Jokic, incredible. Again, I mean, you know, what he did last year was so historic and he's basically topped it in a lot of ways. So, but you've seen it.

• 1:46:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:42Speaker 01

  You've seen it over and over again. And you kind of, like, I'm not saying that you're almost numb to it at all because we're still amazed by it every night. But you've seen it repeatedly. What, what, Wemby, right out of the gate. Remember the Dallas game? When he had 40 and he had that reverse dunk where he caught the ball on the right side of the lane, diving to the rim, got fouled. And then didn't take another dribble and dunk the ball behind his head on the opposite side of the rim. Do you remember that play? And like, the next day was this viral video clip of him, and that was like, what, game two?

• 1:47:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:20Speaker 01

  Maybe game one? It was like right at the first week of the season. And that for me, kind of set the tone to answer a question like this. 10 years from now, particularly what is probably to come over the next nine after this? This is like, okay, never quite seen this before. Um, even though there, you know, these other guys are statistically doing things that are that are that are superior to what he's doing, certainly offensively, it doesn't matter. It's, it's, it's the look of it and how different it is and how different it is on both ends. And you've never seen anything quite like it. And on top of it, if this is a decade of Spurs excellence where they, they win some and the years they don't, they're right there and it's another one of those runs.

• 1:48:04Speaker 01

  You're going to remember this as the beginning of that. And this is, they got there way faster than anybody thought they could. So for me, that's an easy one to answer. 10 years from now, you're going to talk about this as like the Wemby year, when the Spurs first became a contender with him.

• 1:48:21Bill Simmons?

  I had the same. I wrote down the Wemby arrival, almost like it's like a movie.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it.

• 1:48:26Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, that's what we'll remember. Like, also, he was the best player I saw in person this year and I saw everybody. I don't, that doesn't mean he's the MVP, but I just watching him patrol the defensive end and then all the stuff he was doing offensively and watching how, you know, I always like to watch how, and I think football is good for this too, with like wide receivers or running backs or whatever, when defenses just are reacting to everything somebody's doing.

• 1:48:56Bill Simmons?

  And with him, it's just, you could just see, everybody's just constantly, where is he? Where, you have five players on the court and all of them like, wait, they have the ball. It's like, where is he? Is he there? Can I, is it safe? And then on, when he's on offense, it's like, what are we going to do? Oh no, he might post up. And they're just constantly like tiptoeing around. So, I had for number two for this Joker, um, being Apex Joker. I do feel like this is the best version of him that we've had.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:25Bill Simmons?

  Um, and then SGA. The crunch time stuff I think was pretty special with him. I actually think all three of these guys had a case for like, here's why you should remember me. SGA kind of became a villain this year. So if I was going to think about it through the context of him, I'd be like, oh yeah, that was the year when everybody kind of got tired of OKC. They got pissed about the foul baiting. SGA seemed to feed off it, became this awesome crunch time guy. So all of them had the case. So, all right, well, we did five questions and now I'm more confused than ever who the MVP is. I think that's where it landed.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  It's brutal, man. And like, these are all tough, man. Coach of the year is going to be tough. I think rookie of the year, like I said, for you, for me, that's, that's as close as it gets. And ultimately, I don't even know when the time comes to start writing these names down, like what will be my, the thing that moves the needle in that direction for me, because I think it's that tight. MVP, the all-league teams, I think I got a pretty good grasp of those. I mean, guys being eliminated from contention helped in some ways, you know, me eliminate some confusion. So I've got a pretty good grip on those. All-defense, I think first team, I'm in pretty good shape. Like beyond that, I think you got to start diving into it a little bit deeper. I got to do a little bit deeper dive on that. What else? Sixth man of the year, got a pretty good feel for that.

• 1:50:44Bill Simmons?

  Pretty lame category this year for the sixth man. It's disappointing. You're just talking yourself into multiple candidates. Yeah, I'm the same as you. I have a pretty good handle. My only thing, we can, we can end on this. As a traditionalist, I still like having a big man on each of my all NBA teams. Because I think it's, I know they gave us the option to just go nuts and basically make it a, oh, I don't care if this team would never make sense in real life as a basketball team, this would be my team. I just value the history and especially with big men, how hard it was to pick centers, even like the Jokic and Bede year we had a couple of years ago that started this stupid

• 1:51:29Bill Simmons?

  thing to begin with. I just think it should be, you should have a big. You should have a wing and you should have a guard and then two other spots, but I feel like those three are necessities. So like for me, I'm gonna have Jalen Dern in either second or third team, probably second and Chet, third team. I'm gonna have Wemby and Jokic together on the first team because I do think they could play together is where, because Jokic is like, I don't even know what position he is. Are you a traditionalist or you just put your five guys together?

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  I'm more of a traditionalist, I think. I think, you know, I think it's probably, you know, era I come from, age, like it's, it's, it's how you view the composition of a basketball team.

• 1:52:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:11Speaker 01

  You know, and, and I guess so, but it is, it's fine. It's not like it's something I, I, it's not a some, you know, hill I'm gonna die on. I, I'm okay with it. It's the way the game looks now. A lot of nights, thank God, we still do have some bigs that do a lot of damage that stay in the forefront of the conversation. So we're not just only talking about guards and wings. There are still bigs doing some great things in this league. It's just the way the league has gone. Some of it is what it is, but yes, for, for me, when you think of like, you know, I get, you go back at all those years following the league before I was even in the league, like, you know, you growing up high school and college and you're, you love the NBA and those all NBA teams would come out and that's what it looked like, man. And every one of those teams had a center on it and

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  it was cool, man. And that's how you view a basketball team. One guy in the middle, two guys in the backcourt and a couple of wings. That's typically what it is, but I'm okay that they've gone in this direction.

• 1:53:04Bill Simmons?

  You know the irony of this? I feel like centers are more valuable than they've probably been in a long time, right? Cause there's so many of them.

• 1:53:11Speaker 01

  It's made a comeback.

• 1:53:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:13Speaker 01

  It's made a comeback.

• 1:53:14Bill Simmons?

  I don't think you could win the title now. Like, it'd be really interesting to 2015, 16 Warriors. You know, they still had Bogut and they still had the ability to get a little bigger, but the lineup of death with Draymond, I don't know if that lineup works in the same way now. I just think he would have been overpowered by, by certain players that we just didn't have in 2015 and 16. You know what I mean?

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  Oh, no, there's no question about it. Yeah, that's, I totally agree with that. There, there are more guys now that could do damage down there. And it's not necessarily the traditional way that it was in the eighties and nineties when there were more guys that you threw the ball into with their back to the basket on the block with one guy on them. Like, that's what the league looked like in the nineties when I played. And I played on teams like that was the priority. I'm throwing the ball to Chris Webber on the block, Juwan Howard, George Mira-san, Rashid. They're gonna get the ball and then I'm gonna, I was the guy that made the entry passes because they trusted me. I wasn't gonna turn it over. I was able to get it into the post, even if they were wrestling down there. I was really good at that. Never turned it over. And then I would run through to the other side and you stand on the, on the wing, the opposite wing and just wait. Are they gonna double team?

• 1:54:20Speaker 01

  And now it's gonna be my turn to shoot. Like, that's kind of what offenses did. And every team kind of played that way. Even when you played, like, I'd play Hall of Famers like Clyde Draxler. It was like, ah, man, this guy's a load, but at the same time, there's gonna be about a four-minute stretch where he's gonna throw the ball into Hakeem, like, six times in a row. And Reggie Miller's gonna throw the ball to Rick Smits. And the guys on the Knicks are gonna throw the ball to Patrick. And like, that's what it looked like. Alonzo Mourning in Miami, Dan Marley, you're gonna throw the ball in there. You know, just so, it was kind of like that. Like, you're gonna, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna play it a certain way. I don't know if Marley was on those teams, but whoever the Heat wings were, but it was, that's what, that's what it looked like. The ball was going down there and you played out of that.

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  Now there are guys that do damage in the paint. There's bigs, but it's, it's, it's, it looks different. They're more mobile. They're moving around. They're facing up first at the start of the possession and then rolling. They step out and shoot the three. You know, I'm watching Klingon last night, who is just a monstrous human being. And he's developed such a nice three-point shot. And he, you know, they're not gonna guard him. Why not?

• 1:55:23Bill Simmons?

  How about Andre Drummond? Andre Drummond shooting threes now. Once that started happening.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, Drum, a guy that big, right? And he likes the corners. It's, it's funny to me, man, but it's, there are, there are bigs across the league now that are doing great things. And at one point, it looked like, man, they're like, we're gonna make this extinct. Like, it's not even gonna exist.

• 1:55:43Bill Simmons?

  No, it's, it's so back. I really think they should change it and make it like, one big, one wing, one guard, and then the other two spots are open. Like, at least, because there's no basketball team that's just like playing a bunch of small guys. Even a team like the Hawks that is They've been able to go a little smaller, but they they still have either gay or or a congo out there whenever they need to you and Klingon Klingon's a good example. There's a bunch of like Klingon type guys around the league now, you know, like Celtics have Kato. You go on through and there's a bunch of guys that could put up like a 12.

• 1:56:18Speaker 01

  Even Portland, the two headed monster. They're they're those guys, Robert Williams and Klingon are averaging 18 points and 17 rebounds a game and three blocks between the two of them. So you you're good. They play about 42 minutes, I think, combined. So you get like starters minutes out of these two guys and then they go small if they're not because they don't ever play together and 18 and 17 and three blocks. Yeah, they'll take that. And one of them can shoot. Yeah, we're good.

• 1:56:43Bill Simmons?

  Before we go, have you decided who you want Washington to pick with the seventh NFL draft pick?

• 1:56:49Speaker 01

  No, no, I have not yet. I'm I'm I'm nervous right now. I'm nervous. I haven't decided. I do think that they're they're talking about the running back for Notre Dame as being a guy that maybe they go because we have no running backs now. I mean, they've added some, but like basically they got rid of all the running backs. They had one on the roster. And they've added Rashad White, which is I thought was a nice pickup, but they're saying that that may be what they target because most of what they did in free agency was spent defensively.

• 1:57:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, if you get love at seven, that's amazing because some people think he's the best guy in the draft. So you get that guy.

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  Running backs.

• 1:57:25Bill Simmons?

  I know.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  You know how it is with running backs? Remember when we had Alfred Morris, like his first three years in the NFL and then that was it?

• 1:57:32Bill Simmons?

  Then you're gone.

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  That's all you got. That's all you got. So running backs, like I get it. I mean, it's important, but at the same time, it's like you, you know, you don't know how many years those guys are even going to have. But I've I've read the same things that you have, and I didn't see him. I didn't watch him a lot, but I've I'm reading the same things that he would be an ideal pick and lucky to get him if he's available at that pick.

• 1:57:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I personally would never take a running back in the top 10 just because of I just feel like you can. It's almost like how I'd never pay $30 million a year for a center that wasn't like an all NBA center. Otherwise, I'm just going to try to cheat and patch guys together and do Luke Cornet for $9 million a year and go that way versus.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  No, I'm with you.

• 1:58:14Bill Simmons?

  Versus paying 30 million a year. I'm not doing that. I'm not using my cap for that when I could get somebody else for it cheaper. All right, Legs, we will. So what's today's date, April 9?

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  April 9.

• 1:58:27Bill Simmons?

  So we'll see you near the, I know you'll pop on Zach's pod at some point during the beginning of the playoffs. And we'll see you probably near the end of round one on this, on this feed.

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  Perfect, man.

• 1:58:37Bill Simmons?

  You're gonna be traveling a bunch, right?

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  I got one more game on Sunday to close out the regular season. Unfortunately, it's probably not going to mean anything. Denver, San Antonio, it might mean something to Denver. It is what it is. And then play-in is handled by the other networks. So we're not, we're not with that. And then, so you'll see me again, like my first playoff game with this group, with Mike Green and Richard Jefferson will be Saturday, looks like Saturday, the 18th, whatever that prime time Saturday evening game is gonna be. So, and I just cannot wait, man, to get going. And then it's gonna be, yeah, two or three a week, I guess.

• 1:59:11Bill Simmons?

  Do you know what conference you do, or you just bounce around?

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  No, you're gonna bounce around the first two rounds for sure. We'll, we'll get, we'll get the West Coast covered, probably. You know, if Luca had stayed healthy and if he's playing, it almost guaranteed you're gonna see some Lakers. But it's different now because it's not just like us and Turner.

• 1:59:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:29Speaker 01

  You've got now three different entities, kind of. And so it's, it's gonna be different how they divvy up these games and who gets what. You know, and then obviously these markets like Boston, New York are big markets. They're gonna have very meaningful games. We're gonna bounce around, but then we, ESPN, ABC, have the Eastern Conference Finals this year. So once we get to that point, we will call every one of those games and then every one of the finals games, obviously.

• 1:59:53Bill Simmons?

  Would love nothing more than to take you to dinner in Boston during the Eastern Conference Finals. So I hope, I hope we can make that happen.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  I'll take you up on that, man. That would be phenomenal.

• 2:00:01Bill Simmons?

  I hope my team is there. Legs, great to see you. Safe travels this weekend.

• 2:00:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Thanks, Bill.

• 2:00:07Bill Simmons?

  All right. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, Rewatchables is coming Monday night. Basic Instinct, we did it live in San Francisco. We had an absolutely awesome time. Was great to, uh, great to see everybody. Sunday, Zach Lowe and I are coming on. Not sure the exact time yet, but we're coming. On live on Netflix, it'll be after the Masters, probably early Sunday after, uh, early Sunday evening, um, Eastern time. So be ready for us. Very excited. Great sports weekend ahead. Uh, enjoy the weekend. See you Sunday.

• 2:01:03Bill Simmons?

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