Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 26: Twenty Six Six Six About this episode This week, K & G recap Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six when Karen shared the story of Mary Bell and Georgia discussed the tragic death of Lisa Steinberg. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and much more!
Transcript 13,693 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:36 Karen Kilgariff? Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.
0:40 Georgia Hardstark? Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.
0:48 Karen Kilgariff? As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wisecrack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.
1:05 Georgia Hardstark? All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.
1:07 Karen Kilgariff? Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.
1:12 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
1:29 Karen Kilgariff? Hello and welcome.
1:31 Georgia Hardstark? To Rewind with Karen in Georgia.
1:34 Karen Kilgariff? We've had a lot of spice. Rewind. This is our Wednesday episode, our new Wednesday episode, where we recap our old shows with new commentary, updates, and potentially retractions, if necessary.
1:49 Georgia Hardstark? I think this one is necessary. Also, Happy New Year's Day if you're listening on the day that this comes out. It's 2024.
1:56 Karen Kilgariff? It's 2024 now.
1:59 Georgia Hardstark? Five.
1:59 Karen Kilgariff? Five for you.
2:00 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, I got time.
2:02 Karen Kilgariff? This is being done in the past. Can you believe it? Before you start your new year, which is gonna be incredible, by the way.
2:10 Georgia Hardstark? What a year it's gonna be for you.
2:13 Karen Kilgariff? It's gonna be. But before we go into the future, let's let us drag you into the past.
2:21 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, because, yes, that's right.
2:23 Karen Kilgariff? Line.
2:25 Georgia Hardstark? Because today, we are recapping episode 26, Little Babies. We were, and we named it 2666.
2:34 Karen Kilgariff? Hell, yeah.
2:34 Georgia Hardstark? Because, of course, we did.
2:35 Karen Kilgariff? Punk rock.
2:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and it came out originally on Thursday, July 21st, 2016.
2:41 Karen Kilgariff? I just want to say July 21st in mid to late July in Los Angeles is a pretty warm time.
2:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
2:47 Karen Kilgariff? We were still in your apartment with no air conditioning.
2:49 Georgia Hardstark? That's correct.
2:50 Karen Kilgariff? I'm not saying that to you accusatorially.
2:53 Georgia Hardstark? No, I love it. It's my roots.
2:54 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, I, but I, that's all I can think of when I think of like these, when I look at these and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. And then I'm like, I was having a great time and sweating my ass off.
3:04 Georgia Hardstark? We were sweating. I was wearing tiny clothes. We were, we talk about in the beginning of this, like the worry that more fireworks are going to happen.
3:11 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, yes.
3:12 Georgia Hardstark? Because that's Los Angeles, the first, like, couple of weeks before the 4th of July and a couple of weeks after in Los Angeles. It's just constant.
3:20 Karen Kilgariff? Fireworks in the, a tinderbox of a city.
3:23 Georgia Hardstark? That's.
3:23 Karen Kilgariff? Just like dry wood-based insanity. And we were so traumatized by the week before.
3:29 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
3:30 Karen Kilgariff? When we had those.
3:30 Georgia Hardstark? Where someone said they almost got in a car accident because they heard the fireworks from the week before.
3:37 Karen Kilgariff? And thought.
3:38 Georgia Hardstark? Drove off the road. I thought it was happening in there. Thought they were being shot at.
3:41 Karen Kilgariff? We must be careful when we listen to podcasts on the road.
3:44 Georgia Hardstark? We have more power than we realize.
3:46 Karen Kilgariff? And it feels great.
3:47 Georgia Hardstark? Doesn't it, though?
3:48 Karen Kilgariff? Here in 2025.
3:50 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
3:51 Karen Kilgariff? Are you ready?
3:52 Georgia Hardstark? I'm ready.
3:52 Karen Kilgariff? It's the rewind episode. Now we all get to be day one listeners.
3:55 Georgia Hardstark? So let's listen to the intro of episode 26.
4:02 Karen Kilgariff? Let's start.
4:03 Georgia Hardstark? Now?
4:04 Karen Kilgariff? Let's start right now.
4:06 Georgia Hardstark? Let's start right now. Fireworks.
4:08 Karen Kilgariff? Baby, you're a firework.
4:11 Karen Kilgariff? Whole building collapses?
4:13 Georgia Hardstark? Someone on some social media site said that they almost got in a car accident when they heard the firework because they thought it was a gunshot.
4:20 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no.
4:21 Georgia Hardstark? I know. Sorry, we were just as scared as you were.
4:24 Karen Kilgariff? We were more scared because as loud as it was on the podcast, it was fucking 15 times louder in real life.
4:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. You're fine.
4:35 Karen Kilgariff? Um.
4:36 Georgia Hardstark? Sorry.
4:37 Karen Kilgariff? It was very, very scary, surprising, and to me funny.
4:41 Georgia Hardstark? It's hilarious. It keeps happening, though, so it might happen again tonight.
4:45 Karen Kilgariff? And what is it, September? I mean, how much longer?
4:49 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know. So, prepare yourself and your dogs, because I'm sure people, some people has, they're like, thunder jackets off, but.
4:59 Karen Kilgariff? I tried to put a thunder shirt on George one time.
5:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
5:03 Karen Kilgariff? And when I came home, it was eaten.
5:04 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
5:05 Karen Kilgariff? It was like ripped to shreds and parts were gone.
5:07 Georgia Hardstark? I know, I know that well. She's like. I put a collar on my cat once and came back and it was like, here's what I think of it.
5:14 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Get fuck yourself.
5:16 Georgia Hardstark? Get fuck, I mean, I wouldn't want a fucking collar. I mean, I guess I did when I was 14 and thought I was punk, I wore a collar.
5:21 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, that was the 90s, right?
5:22 Georgia Hardstark? It was, wasn't it?
5:24 Karen Kilgariff? It was all about cat collars and shit back then.
5:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
5:28 Karen Kilgariff? Punk, fake punk rock.
5:29 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. I still have mine, it still smells like, like, um, Victoria's Secret, uh, apple spray, apple body spray.
5:36 Karen Kilgariff? No. Oh, no. You mean sorrow?
5:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Yep.
5:42 Karen Kilgariff? It still smells like ecstasy?
5:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Uh, hey, how are you? How was your week? What's going on?
5:47 Karen Kilgariff? Hi. Um, I've just been working.
5:51 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, this is my favorite murder.
5:53 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, guys, listen.
5:55 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, I figure if you press play on this, you probably know that.
5:58 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, if you're one of those rando people that just goes through iTunes and picks different podcasts and hits play.
6:06 Georgia Hardstark? No one's ever done that, right?
6:07 Karen Kilgariff? No, I seriously doubt it. But welcome, if you're that one person, if you're the lone wolf.
6:13 Georgia Hardstark? Hi. And if you're new to this. I'm Georgia, that's Karen.
6:18 Karen Kilgariff? I'm Karen, this is my voice.
6:20 Georgia Hardstark? Karen was the one singing.
6:22 Karen Kilgariff? I do that because it's my passion.
6:24 Georgia Hardstark? It's her passion and she's good at it and I'm not.
6:28 Karen Kilgariff? I disagree.
6:30 Georgia Hardstark? That I'm bad at, that I'm bad? You disagree that you're good at it.
6:34 Karen Kilgariff? I disagree that you're bad at it.
6:36 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
6:36 Karen Kilgariff? Because I've heard you do it jokingly and it's not bad.
6:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
6:40 Karen Kilgariff? It's not.
6:41 Georgia Hardstark? I guess the secret is not to try.
6:44 Karen Kilgariff? Or care.
6:44 Georgia Hardstark? Or care. Yeah, that's true. Here's a good segue into the presents we just got. I'm, I'm holding a cold beer to the stab wound that I gave myself.
6:55 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, can I just explain this very quickly? So we had, Georgia had a little pile of presents waiting for me when I got home to her apartment from work. No, this isn't my home. And it was like, I waited for you so we can open these up. We wanted to open them off air so it wouldn't take forever. And one of them, I opened two because Georgia was slightly afraid they could be a bomb or something dangerous.
7:18 Georgia Hardstark? Karen's face.
7:19 Karen Kilgariff? So I'll go, I was like, I'll go ahead and take the hit.
7:22 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, you're off-camera talent.
7:26 Karen Kilgariff? I can have the eye patch.
7:27 Georgia Hardstark? All you need are your, is your brain.
7:29 Karen Kilgariff? And I would love for my teeth to be blown out. So I can have, get some awesome veneers.
7:33 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
7:34 Karen Kilgariff? So I did the first two and Georgia was like, I said, she picked up the third one and I said, do you want me to open that? And she was like, I can do it. I'm not that insane or whatever it was.
7:44 Georgia Hardstark? I was like, fuck anxiety.
7:45 Karen Kilgariff? And then she went to open it and stabbed herself in the bare leg with a pair of scissors. And it, I have to tell you, as painful as I'm sure it is, it's also hilarious.
7:56 Georgia Hardstark? It's one of those things, and this happens to me a lot, where I'm glad it happened because it's worth it. Like I run into stuff all the time and, and like do dumb shit and I'm like, I'm so glad that that happened.
8:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
8:07 Georgia Hardstark? That's humor in life.
8:08 Karen Kilgariff? Instead of just when you look down and have a rando, that's the second time I said that word and I've never really said it before at all.
8:15 Georgia Hardstark? Interesting.
8:16 Karen Kilgariff? What's going on? What teen boy am I trying to impress?
8:22 Karen Kilgariff? When you look down and you, there's just a huge bruise for no reason? Where you're just like, do, does this mean I have blood cancer?
8:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
8:28 Karen Kilgariff? Why?
8:28 Georgia Hardstark? The majority of my bruises I don't remember getting and it's not because I'm constantly drunk, I'm not.
8:33 Karen Kilgariff? You're not.
8:34 Georgia Hardstark? And I, and I mean, when I'm drunk, I'm smooth as shit too. Like I'm good. I'm much better in person when I'm drunk.
8:39 Karen Kilgariff? When you're drunk, what I notice is that you seem to just enjoy every single thing that goes on.
8:44 Georgia Hardstark? Really?
8:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. You just have a big smile on your face and you think everything's kind of funny and like enjoyable, it seems like.
8:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. I like, um, I, I think I like, I understand moments so much better and understand people and get, get life better.
9:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
9:01 Georgia Hardstark? Which is like so unhealthy, but.
9:03 Karen Kilgariff? Well, you have a good time.
9:04 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe I'm not anxious. Maybe that's it. Maybe I'm amused and not anxious.
9:08 Karen Kilgariff? Deep down under, underneath?
9:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
9:10 Karen Kilgariff? When you use beer to uncover your true personality? Well, we got some.
9:14 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my God.
9:15 Karen Kilgariff? Amazing gifts. We just had like a baby July Christmas.
9:19 Georgia Hardstark? Dude.
9:20 Karen Kilgariff? What was that?
9:21 Georgia Hardstark? That was someone slamming the door, but it sounded like a gun.
9:23 Karen Kilgariff? That, that sounded like a half firework to me.
9:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it did.
9:28 Karen Kilgariff? Um, all right.
9:29 Georgia Hardstark? Where do we start?
9:30 Karen Kilgariff? We got a beautiful card that's the sparkliest thing.
9:33 Georgia Hardstark? It's gorgeous.
9:34 Karen Kilgariff? With a really funny, cute joke on the front and really great printing inside.
9:40 Georgia Hardstark? Beautiful printing.
9:40 Karen Kilgariff? The kind of printing I wish I could do, but I don't understand why that looks the way it does.
9:45 Georgia Hardstark? I might, I don't know, do this. I might trace over the handwriting later. It's so satisfying. Have you ever tried that?
9:51 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, I've never done it. It's from, this card is from Emily and she just said a bunch of lovely things and it was, it's basically a thank you card for our podcast, which is the cutest thing of all time.
10:01 Georgia Hardstark? She was raised well.
10:03 Karen Kilgariff? Girl, and she likes a card.
10:05 Georgia Hardstark? We'd like to thank her parents for this card.
10:08 Karen Kilgariff? Mr. And Mrs. Emily's parents.
10:10 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Um, move on to the next one.
10:12 Karen Kilgariff? Then we got from Candace. She sent us this really fucking rad, her, she's gonna start doing murder zines. And the first one is, uh, the murder zine is called the Matilda Effect. And the first one is about Frances Glessner Lee.
10:27 Georgia Hardstark? There's, there are women in science scenes.
10:30 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, oh, I thought they were murder.
10:32 Georgia Hardstark? No, they're women in science.
10:33 Karen Kilgariff? Women in science scenes. Sorry. But the first one, um. Is about a woman who, did she want to be a cop? Did that card say?
10:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, she wanted to be a scientist. She wanted to be, she's basically, if you guys have seen the documentary, The Nutshell Studies, where she really, this woman way back when, really wanted to be a doctor or nurse, and she wasn't allowed to because of her family. I think she was a rich, I think she was from a wealthy family. So instead, she started to make detailed miniature models of composite crime scenes. So she just made miniature crime scenes so that cops could study them without screwing up the crime scene. And she's just had this huge effect on, on crime scene procedure. And she's incredible. I love Candace. You can get these at smut punks. It's S M U T P U N X dot com. And she's gonna make, she makes other buttons and stuff, and she just makes shit.
11:27 Georgia Hardstark? And I haven't seen a fucking zine in real life in so long.
11:29 Karen Kilgariff? I know.
11:30 Georgia Hardstark? Did you ever make a zine?
11:31 Karen Kilgariff? No, I never did.
11:32 Georgia Hardstark? I made a zine for, it's like a tribute to Ray Bradbury and Delight.
11:37 Karen Kilgariff? Combined?
11:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
11:39 Karen Kilgariff? Wow, because those are two things you like.
11:40 Georgia Hardstark? That's what I liked in F16. So seeing a zine is like, exciting.
11:44 Karen Kilgariff? It's very cool.
11:45 Georgia Hardstark? And I think you should, I think we should all support zines.
11:47 Karen Kilgariff? You know what I did was, I just assumed that Candace made a zine for all the things I like, instead of what she's interested in.
11:54 Georgia Hardstark? Just murder?
11:54 Karen Kilgariff? Women in science. This was, yeah, it was, it was specifically for me.
11:59 Georgia Hardstark? Well, it is a true crime.
12:01 Karen Kilgariff? Subject.
12:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yet, yes. So.
12:03 Karen Kilgariff? And so fascinating, if you get, it's called The Nutshell, what's the documentary called?
12:07 Georgia Hardstark? It's called The Nutshell Studies.
12:09 Karen Kilgariff? You gotta watch it.
12:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, she's, it's great. Candace, thank you.
12:13 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you so much.
12:14 Georgia Hardstark? Please keep remaining to be a badass.
12:16 Karen Kilgariff? Then we got.
12:17 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
12:18 Karen Kilgariff? This amazing puzzle from Holly. She said, Karen and Georgia, thanks so much for sharing your favorite murders. I made a puzzle about mine. Thought you might like it. Like it?
12:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
12:31 Karen Kilgariff? We fucking lost our minds.
12:33 Georgia Hardstark? I'm so excited. I kind of like, I kind of begged Karen for it.
12:36 Karen Kilgariff? It's a, it's a 3D puzzle of H.H. Holmes murder castle in Chicago, which is the best thing of all time. So I think everybody probably knows, but if you're, if you just started liking true crime.
12:51 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
12:51 Karen Kilgariff? H.H. Holmes, I think they're gonna make the Devil in the White City movie with Leo DiCaprio.
12:56 Georgia Hardstark? That's right, I think you've heard of it. And you can get this, where can you get her?
13:01 Karen Kilgariff? The puzzle?
13:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, wait, wait, okay. You can get. Holly Carden dot com. So it's H O L L Y C A R D E N. And I think she's gonna start just making true crime puzzles.
13:13 Karen Kilgariff? That's amazing.
13:14 Georgia Hardstark? I cannot wait to make this. I'll take photos.
13:15 Karen Kilgariff? It's very cool. So anyway, she started off with H H Holmes Murder Castle, which you can watch the movie. It's the best story ever. If you get creeped out by premeditated planned psycho murder, this is the story for you. And I would do it, but they did it on last podcast on the left.
13:34 Georgia Hardstark? I know. I am not.
13:36 Karen Kilgariff? It's been done a lot.
13:37 Georgia Hardstark? It's been done a lot.
13:38 Karen Kilgariff? And it's very well known and a movie's gonna come out. So we let, we let, it got taken care of in our minds.
13:45 Georgia Hardstark? And finally.
13:47 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my God. And then finally, Bethany, who may, Bethany Jones, I'm assuming these people are okay with their names being said.
13:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I think they want a shout out, which they absolutely do.
13:59 Karen Kilgariff? So Bethany Jones is from the base element makeup bath and body, I would call it company. And she sent us, her card says, I hope you like your names sake lipsticks. I loved creating them while listening to your podcasts. All of your podcasts, one after the other, I twitch. And fittingly, when I was done, my kitchen looked like a murder scene and I was smeared red to the elbows. I've got a bit rock and roll and made skull bath bombs in your honor too. See what an inspiration you are. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. It's so awesome. This box smelled, we could smell the bath bombs from outside.
14:39 Georgia Hardstark? That's why I knew it wasn't a bomb, because I feel like they wouldn't go to the trouble of making it pleasant.
14:43 Karen Kilgariff? A soapy bomb.
14:45 Georgia Hardstark? Well, it was a bomb. Oh, my God. I didn't think about that.
14:47 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's right. You were right. See, you were right all along.
14:50 Georgia Hardstark? I'm psychic.
14:50 Karen Kilgariff? But bombs can be good.
14:52 Georgia Hardstark? Bombs can be good.
14:53 Karen Kilgariff? So we just got. A shit ton of lip gloss and lip balm and lip scrub and eye shadow.
15:01 Georgia Hardstark? A lot of them are named, like have quotes from the podcast. There's a fucking lip balm called Elvis Wanna Cookie. And once we, we got excited and exclaimed that when we saw it, Elvis lost his fucking mind because he thought he was getting one, so I had to give him one.
15:14 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, we kept saying Elvis. I won't say it again.
15:17 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
15:18 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, but yeah, there's, I mean, our names are on he, on lip balms. This is, this is right up my alley.
15:23 Georgia Hardstark? She's gonna make them. She just wanted us to get the first ones, which is so fucking cool.
15:27 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
15:27 Georgia Hardstark? Um, so you can go to the, the base element at Etsy.
15:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
15:34 Georgia Hardstark? And buy murderino and non-murderino.
15:36 Karen Kilgariff? You guys, we can have our own makeup line.
15:39 Georgia Hardstark? Fucking love this podcast.
15:40 Karen Kilgariff? From Bethany. It's so cool. It's very cool. Thank you for our gifts. Totally worth it to open up, to open you up to danger.
15:47 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
15:47 Karen Kilgariff? And get that pot, that P O box. Hey, look, that's plenty of presents. That's plenty.
15:52 Georgia Hardstark? I'm okay with the P. I, I talked to my therapist about it.
15:57 Georgia Hardstark? I really fucking lost my shit this past week. I talked to her about it. I got some pepper spray. The reality is it's not gonna fucking, I mean, what are the chances that's gonna happen? It's not.
16:07 Karen Kilgariff? Then I get scared when you say that.
16:09 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck, yeah, I'm sorry. All right. If you really, really want to find it, and if you actually have something that you're making that's like legit, you can have the P O box.
16:16 Karen Kilgariff? Also, there's 80 million ways to contact us so that you could probably say, hey, here's what I'm gonna send you.
16:21 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
16:22 Karen Kilgariff? And here's a copy of my driver's license so that if I do harm you in any way.
16:26 Georgia Hardstark? Right. And now we have evidence.
16:27 Karen Kilgariff? Contacted. Evidence, it's all on the internet.
16:30 Georgia Hardstark? So that was present, uh, present.
16:32 Karen Kilgariff? That was present corner.
16:33 Georgia Hardstark? What we call present corner.
16:41 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, we're in. This is fun. So we start opening like gifts from listeners, which I know scared the shit out of me in the very beginning.
16:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, clearly. I mean, you're taking true. Precautions and then hurting yourself in the in the process.
16:55 Georgia Hardstark? That sounds, sounds like me. That sounds like me through and through. Taking precautions, hurting yourself on accident.
17:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I mean, I can relate.
17:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
17:02 Karen Kilgariff? I think that's very relatable. Also, I think we were doing a lot of those kinds of, okay, strangers are sending us big boxes. We just got to go with God on this one.
17:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
17:11 Karen Kilgariff? And like, play along. And I have to say this. We've been doing this for almost nine years. We've got, been given a lot of amazing gifts.
17:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
17:20 Karen Kilgariff? A lot of hilarious gifts, a lot of downright weird gifts. And I maybe shouldn't be saying this, but we've never gotten a scary gift.
17:28 Georgia Hardstark? No, I've never felt threatened by a gift, except that doll that had the happy face and the sad face.
17:34 Karen Kilgariff? But, but the person who gave it to us.
17:36 Georgia Hardstark? It was hilarious.
17:37 Karen Kilgariff? Was hilarious and, oh god, I wish I could remember her name, but also knew that that's what they were doing.
17:42 Georgia Hardstark? We needed it.
17:42 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
17:43 Georgia Hardstark? It was great. And do you remember we sent it to a listener?
17:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, someone won it.
17:47 Georgia Hardstark? Who has that?
17:48 Karen Kilgariff? If you won the scary two-faced doll, please send us an email of how your life has been going since it entered your home.
17:55 Georgia Hardstark? We must know. Um, and actually, so what's really cool about these gifts that we just opened is that at Holly's store, who gave us the H.H. Holmes Murder Castle Puzzle, is still active at hollycarden.com.
18:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, she has the whole empire over there.
18:11 Georgia Hardstark? Amazing, check that out.
18:12 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And also, we talked about the devil in the white city and we got so excited because the movie was supposed to come out.
18:19 Georgia Hardstark? Did it ever come out?
18:19 Karen Kilgariff? Nine years ago. It's never come out, but all the same people are still attached.
18:23 Georgia Hardstark? What?
18:23 Karen Kilgariff? And it is essentially, it's Leonardo DiCaprio and I think it's supposed to maybe be Scorsese, I can't remember. But it's a famously cursed project now.
18:32 Georgia Hardstark? Shut up, because I want to watch it now, though.
18:35 Karen Kilgariff? I want, I want it. But I want it. It's like, that idea, I just saw a TikTok on it and there's a shot, the opening TikTok, the opening picture of the TikTok was this, the scene from the statue's shoulder overlooking that big pond or lake or whatever they built in.
18:53 Georgia Hardstark? In the state fair or the, what's it called?
18:55 Karen Kilgariff? Fairground?
18:56 Georgia Hardstark? Fair, World's Fair.
18:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, for the, yes, exactly. For the World's Fair, but they built it, like, it was all white. It's an incredible looking thing that like, I got to actually see this one picture that I was like, oh my god. And then, of course, the Ferris wheel.
19:10 Georgia Hardstark? You know what's so crazy? Is that when this came out, this episode, TikTok didn't exist. Is that true? I'm making that up. I think it's true.
19:19 Karen Kilgariff? I think it's true. I bet you it was. I wonder if Vine had even been shut down yet.
19:23 Georgia Hardstark? Oh shit.
19:24 Karen Kilgariff? Like Vine walked so that TikTok could run.
19:27 Georgia Hardstark? Remember when we were Vine stars?
19:28 Karen Kilgariff? Were we?
19:29 Georgia Hardstark? No, I don't know. We could make that up.
19:32 Karen Kilgariff? Pat Walsh was a Vine star.
19:33 Georgia Hardstark? Was he?
19:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, he was.
19:34 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that's so cute.
19:35 Karen Kilgariff? He would get on there and sing little songs like, "All the girls are going to a pizza party." Yeah, Vine.
19:42 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
19:42 Karen Kilgariff? Legendary. So let's now, as we always do on this podcast, take a left turn because this episode is horrible. It's horrifying. It's child murder abuse. This is basically a listener warning, but it's not just about child murder. It involves brutal child abuse.
20:04 Georgia Hardstark? It's funny how our stories start to sync up at this point, where it's like we both had the same mindset.
20:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
20:10 Georgia Hardstark? And so this episode is especially horrible because of that. But I also find it really interesting as I was reading through, it's clear that you and I are understanding how to talk about true crime.
20:22 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
20:23 Georgia Hardstark? In a way that we hadn't been taught.
20:25 Karen Kilgariff? May I correct? Just starting to understand?
20:28 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, starting to understand, yes. In a way that we didn't, we weren't taught and that we were figuring out from listeners' notes and from the way it made us feel.
20:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
20:40 Georgia Hardstark? And not, and so there's a lot of comments here that it's almost like you can hear us feeling out our own empathy.
20:48 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
20:48 Georgia Hardstark? And what it means and what it doesn't excuse, but you know, how to think about the
20:56 Karen Kilgariff? These stories.
20:56 Georgia Hardstark? These stories, yeah. And so it is a different time completely. And I think you and I are clearly, you know, feeling our way through that.
21:03 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, I think about it all the time where, and we've talked about it a lot, but it's like growing up on quote unquote true crime and the way the media used to treat it was normal to us. That's, that's just how it was.
21:17 Georgia Hardstark? Salacious. You're trying to, you know,
21:19 Karen Kilgariff? Salacious.
21:19 Georgia Hardstark? Sell these stories.
21:20 Karen Kilgariff? Killer centric.
21:21 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
21:22 Karen Kilgariff? Just kind of pop culture-y. And so us coming in From that stance in 2016, looking back now and looking back basically the whole time is just kind of like, why are we, why are we this disconnected? Why aren't we? And I mean, disconnected maybe isn't the right word, but it is like, yeah, you can, you can hear us slowly starting to realize nothing is black and white, nothing is straightforward. And at the same time, like, oh, you know, the woman from your story later went on and got to tell her story. And it was a complete, it like flipped that kind of very singular media narrative that we learned and kind of went with when it happened.
22:02 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Like, the story can be nuanced without taking away the perpetrator's culpability. And you can understand a story and people's motivations in ways without saying that they didn't deserve the punishment or that justice exists and so does empathy. But, you know, how do we look at that? And I think we had to do that in a different way for this podcast.
22:24 Karen Kilgariff? Right. And in a way that it's embarrassing to go, oh, I never, I didn't really think of the victim's family, but no one really did in a forthright way that we could have copied.
22:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:35 Karen Kilgariff? Like, everyone now gets to copy everybody else that, that caught up and is doing better and doing better. Because of course, all of our anonymous internet friends have logged on to say, do better.
22:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:48 Karen Kilgariff? Many, many times.
22:49 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, okay, okay.
22:50 Karen Kilgariff? You said, well, you're right. We'll do our best.
22:52 Georgia Hardstark? All right. So let's get into Karen's story, a classic story, one that I can't think about without thinking about you as a child, because she truly does look exactly like you.
23:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
23:04 Georgia Hardstark? This is the story of Mary Bell. The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
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26:18 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, do you want to talk about our favorite murders?
26:21 Karen Kilgariff? We might as well. Skippers, come back to us. It's time.
26:25 Georgia Hardstark? I think year first?
26:27 Karen Kilgariff? Is it me?
26:28 Georgia Hardstark? I think so.
26:29 Karen Kilgariff? The murder that I chose this week.
26:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, Karen.
26:33 Karen Kilgariff? And my favorite murder is one that's always, it's been one that like, the first time I read it, I couldn't, I would have to turn my eyes away from the page because it is horrible and horrifying, but also like, there's an underpinning of salaciousness to it that I thoroughly enjoy. It's about Mary Bell, the child, child killer.
26:59 Georgia Hardstark? Buck, yeah.
27:00 Karen Kilgariff? The childhood child killer.
27:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
27:03 Karen Kilgariff? Now, what I realized in looking through my researchers, my research searches today, I mean, from weeks ago.
27:12 Georgia Hardstark? Right, for when all that research you've been?
27:13 Karen Kilgariff? Just piles and piles. Every night I go to the city library, like Morgan Freeman, and I let the guy play.
27:20 Georgia Hardstark? It's the same one from Ghostbusters, Ghostbusters movie, right? The big, huge cavernous ghosty.
27:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. I go down in the basement where the very old, dead ghost librarian is.
27:31 Georgia Hardstark? Microfiche is involved. You scroll, microfiche.
27:34 Karen Kilgariff? For hours.
27:36 Georgia Hardstark? Hours.
27:37 Karen Kilgariff? So, in the pictures of Mary Bell, which we should put up on the Instagram page.
27:42 Georgia Hardstark? I will.
27:43 Karen Kilgariff? That's what I look like when I was little.
27:44 Georgia Hardstark? Ah!
27:45 Karen Kilgariff? Exactly. So, I've always had a bit of a connection to Mary Bell.
27:51 Karen Kilgariff? In certain ways, but I also know, and we got called out, um, I think it was on, I can't remember the one, the girl's name, but the girl that shot up the, the school.
28:02 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
28:02 Karen Kilgariff? Mondays.
28:03 Georgia Hardstark? Uh, oh, my God, Mary. Anyways.
28:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, sorry. It, um, Lisa, that, that girl, we kind of got, there's, um, a couple of people who are like, we were being too sympathetic to her.
28:15 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
28:15 Karen Kilgariff? Or being like too nice when normally we're mean. If it's like a man and it's older, we're mean and like hang them high.
28:22 Georgia Hardstark? I don't disagree with that.
28:23 Karen Kilgariff? I know. I mean, everyone has a lot to say about every fucking single thing.
28:27 Georgia Hardstark? But I can see that point. I'm not gonna argue. I agree.
28:29 Karen Kilgariff? Well, I brought it up because I was thinking, is that how I'm gonna be about Mary Bell? But the truth is, I honestly believe that Mary Bell is a psychopath. I think she, anytime she seems sympathetic, it's because she's trying to seem sympathetic.
28:45 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
28:46 Karen Kilgariff? I think she is like, I think she's nightmare. Like, we need to talk about Kevin.
28:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:51 Karen Kilgariff? The bad seed. She is the reality of all of that fiction evil child.
28:56 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Like, nothing can be done.
28:58 Karen Kilgariff? Now, I think there's a reason she's that way. I don't, uh, she may have been born that way because they do talk about how she, from an early age, like, didn't bond, but she had this fucking crazy mother. Either way, to me, I'm, I'm, just wanna say it at the start.
29:14 Georgia Hardstark? I'm not defending her.
29:15 Karen Kilgariff? I'm not defending Mary Bell.
29:16 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, but I also wanna say another thing about it. Whenever there's like a child molester or murderer, someone, we talk about their past and we're like, yeah, that sucks. What, are we supposed, I don't, I don't think we were softer on her.
29:27 Karen Kilgariff? I don't either.
29:28 Georgia Hardstark? I think we're always like investigating the past of the person who's killing people.
29:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
29:34 Georgia Hardstark? That doesn't exonerate them from.
29:35 Karen Kilgariff? But I think sometime, you know, when it's personal opinion, which is all, all of this podcast is.
29:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
29:40 Karen Kilgariff? Sometimes more empathy will come out, even if you have it, it, you won't express it. Like, I don't have a ton of empathy for Richard Ramirez, even though he did get hit in the swing and he had the worst uncle in the world.
29:52 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
29:53 Karen Kilgariff? Whatever.
29:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, we're just saying it's understandable that this person didn't become a normal member of society.
29:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, and for me. That's what's interesting to me.
30:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:03 Karen Kilgariff? When you can, when it's not just, oh, you were born with this defect where you do not have mirror neurons and you do not empathize with other human beings. That's one thing, but like if there's like a little path, you could have been normal.
30:15 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
30:16 Karen Kilgariff? If you didn't experience this parent or this aunt or whatever, it's some awful pit that you fell in in your childhood, that to me, that's like, that's really what's fascinating.
30:26 Georgia Hardstark? That's the study, that's the study.
30:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
30:29 Georgia Hardstark? The, the, um, the effect that they killed someone and murdered them and raped and did all these horrible things, that's the effect, you know, there's a cause and effect.
30:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
30:40 Georgia Hardstark? Et cetera.
30:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And the cause is fascinating.
30:42 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
30:43 Karen Kilgariff? And if I had A, an education, B, didn't have ADD, I would probably read up on it a ton and become some type of a, of a learned expert about it.
30:54 Georgia Hardstark? Me too. And instead?
30:56 Karen Kilgariff? Instead, I have, I work in TV, so I am rewarded for not paying attention to anything.
31:01 Georgia Hardstark? But we do have a, we do have a true crime podcast, so I think we're good. I think we're basically doing that.
31:09 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, yeah, we're doing our best. Anyhow.
31:13 Georgia Hardstark? Sorry, go on.
31:14 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, no. Um, so I've, I've always found Mary Bell fucking fascinating. So this happened in 1968.
31:22 Georgia Hardstark? Ooh, actually, I thought it happened a lot longer ago. That's cool.
31:26 Karen Kilgariff? 68.
31:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
31:27 Karen Kilgariff? And it happened in New, in the inner city suburb of Newcastle in England.
31:34 Georgia Hardstark? That's Stephen King's town, right?
31:35 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, no, in England. Never mind.
31:39 Georgia Hardstark? Newcastle. No, Castle Rock. It's Castle Rock.
31:42 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, yeah. Castle Rock's the, yeah. He's all about Maine.
31:44 Georgia Hardstark? Can we just strike all of that from the record?
31:46 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, absolutely. We're gonna go in and edit this down so good.
31:50 Georgia Hardstark? No, we're not.
31:51 Karen Kilgariff? No, we're not at all. And we never do. Um, okay, so she was born to a unwed, unstable, 17-year-old sex worker, uh, named Betty McCrickets.
32:09 Karen Kilgariff? And Betty used to leave her daughter with relatives and acquaintances just dumped her off anytime she could because she had to go, she, I guess she would go into Glasgow a lot and work as a, as a sex worker.
32:28 Georgia Hardstark? Even as a non seventeen year old sex worker that I was, the thought of having a child at seventeen.
32:35 Karen Kilgariff? Nightmare.
32:37 Georgia Hardstark? Nightmare.
32:37 Karen Kilgariff? It's just, it's what a great opportunity for a ton of bad decisions. Like this one where she once gave Mary to a woman she met on the street outside an abortion clinic.
32:49 Georgia Hardstark? Shut up.
32:50 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Betty was doing it. So, um, her, apparently their household was filthy and sparsely furnished and the, Betty's family members said that Betty tried to kill Mary more than once in her first few years of life.
33:07 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
33:08 Karen Kilgariff? And tried to make it look accidental. So, they all became very suspicious when Mary quote unquote fell out a window.
33:14 Georgia Hardstark? Head trauma?
33:15 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, possibly. And also when she accidentally consumed sleeping pills.
33:20 Georgia Hardstark? What the fuck.
33:21 Karen Kilgariff? Um, so they think she could have definitely gotten brain damage because she had sleeping pills, iron pills, and apparently Mary, um, sorry, Betty would feed the pills to Mary and tell them they were candy.
33:34 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, for fuck's sake.
33:36 Karen Kilgariff? There are some people who now say that they think Betty probably had Munchausen's by proxy.
33:42 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
33:43 Karen Kilgariff? Which is the fascinating disease where a parent gets addicted to the attention and sympathy that they get from a sick child and so they make the child sick on purpose. It's basically what happened in the movie Seven.
33:59 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
34:00 Karen Kilgariff? When he, when the barfing girl finally brings him back to her house.
34:03 Georgia Hardstark? That's a great scene.
34:04 Karen Kilgariff? Um.
34:05 Georgia Hardstark? No.
34:06 Karen Kilgariff? Not Seven, fucking.
34:09 Georgia Hardstark? We both, you're like, oh.
34:11 Karen Kilgariff? The other number movie, The Sixth Sense.
34:13 Georgia Hardstark? Our brains are syncing up because that was just.
34:16 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, you know what's so hilarious? Yeah, we're, we're, it's like our mistake brains are like, ah. Uh, I did the same thing where, when I was talking about the Poli Class murder, I called it, I called it Cloverfield, which is a movie. And the city name where her body was found is Cloverdale. And Adrian, my friend.
34:37 Georgia Hardstark? The whole time you called it that?
34:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I think, but I think I only said it once. Adrian texted me and she's like, dude, it's Cloverdale. You, you went there for softball games. What are you doing? And I was just like, she's like, I'm the only one to notice, but seriously, it's Cloverdale.
34:50 Georgia Hardstark? Monster movie.
34:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, grow up.
34:52 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe you were just trying to protect the town so people like, so Lucky Lou's wouldn't show up there.
34:56 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
34:57 Georgia Hardstark? That's what you were doing.
34:57 Karen Kilgariff? Just stay away from Cloverfield.
35:01 Karen Kilgariff? So, bad news, obviously, and in her upbringing. And so, of course, at school, Mary was known as a chronic liar, disruptive pupil. She, on occasion, would voice her desire to hurt people. She did a lot of kicking and punching and, um, lying. And so, all the kids, they would make fun of her a lot because she was just basically a monster and a mess.
35:31 Karen Kilgariff? And
35:34 Karen Kilgariff? later on, it, it, sorry, I was just trying to figure out where, when a good, but basically later on, it, it came to be discovered that Mary's mother would use her and sell her in prostitution as well from the age of four.
35:49 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
35:51 Karen Kilgariff? So, she, I guess this is another thing that does fascinate me. This is another thing that like, that kind of trauma can affect you and does affect your personality.
36:00 Georgia Hardstark? Completely.
36:01 Karen Kilgariff? So, she was subjected to really awful things at such a young age that they think that, that, that probably plays into the psychopathy and, and the behavior.
36:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, you're like, this isn't a safe.
36:16 Karen Kilgariff? World.
36:16 Georgia Hardstark? World. Nothing is safe. I need to fucking defend myself.
36:20 Karen Kilgariff? And I want to start hurting others the way I'm being hurt.
36:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
36:22 Karen Kilgariff? And it's a way that-
36:23 Georgia Hardstark? And it's normal.
36:24 Karen Kilgariff? It's the way children, yeah, it's the way children communicate that they're being hurt-
36:27 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
36:28 Karen Kilgariff? When they're no- they know they're not allowed to talk about it.
36:30 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
36:31 Karen Kilgariff? Um, fascinating.
36:32 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
36:33 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, okay, so, on May 25th, uh, 1968, two boys, playing in an abandoned house, found the corpse of four-year-old Martin Brown lying in an upstairs room. Um, Mary Bell and her friend Normabel, who was not related to her, they just had the same last name, followed the boys inside the house, and, uh, when the police arrived, the two girls had to be ordered out. So they really liked looking at this dead body.
36:57 Georgia Hardstark? How old were they?
36:59 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, Mary was just about to turn 11.
37:01 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
37:02 Karen Kilgariff? And, um, Normabel was 13, but Mary was the dominant-
37:06 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
37:07 Karen Kilgariff? -of the two.
37:07 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
37:08 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, like, a little more mature and smart. Um, there was no obvious cause of death, uh, so it was assumed that, um, Martin Brown had swallowed pills from a discarded bottle, which was found nearby. So, uh, the next day, Normabel's father caught Mary choking, um, Norma, and he slapped her face and sent her home.
37:29 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm.
37:29 Karen Kilgariff? He's choking, she was choking her so bad.
37:31 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
37:32 Karen Kilgariff? Um, the day after this little boy died. Um, so four days later, Mary Bell appeared at the Brown residence, asking to see Martin. And, uh, when she was reminded that Martin-
37:45 Georgia Hardstark? Asking to see-
37:46 Karen Kilgariff? -was dead.
37:47 Georgia Hardstark? Wait, she showed up?
37:49 Karen Kilgariff? She showed up at the dead boy's house, asking to see him. And when the adult that answered the door reminded her that Martin was dead, uh, it was the mother that answered the door, and when the mother said, "He's dead," Mary said, "Oh, I know he's dead. I want to see him in his coffin."
38:05 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god. Can you, oh, what would you do? I'd scream. I'd run screaming.
38:10 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, a little girl, too.
38:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
38:13 Karen Kilgariff? Who's, yeah. Okay, so two months later, three-year-old Brian Howe goes missing. An immediate search is mounted, and Mary Bell tells Brian's sister that he might be playing on a heap of concrete blocks, um, that had been dumped out in a nearby vacant lot. Um, and which is where he was discovered, dead from manual strangulation, legs and stomach and penis mutilated with a razor and a pair of scissors. The police discover at the scene, the letters M and N were scratched into his stomach.
38:47 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, fuck.
38:48 Karen Kilgariff? So as the investigation narrows, Mary, uh, so, so, um, somebody that had been walking by said they saw kids, um, around that pile of stones that day. And then when they took, um, the three-year-old's body into the corner, he said, um, it looks like he's strangled, but it's such light force that I think we're looking at a child murderer.
39:17 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
39:18 Karen Kilgariff? So then the cops went around and started interviewing all the kids in the neighborhood. And Mary and Norma were both dinged right away because their stories kept changing. Mary acted super weird. They got freaked out by how creepy and weird she was. And Norma couldn't stop giggling.
39:36 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
39:37 Karen Kilgariff? Um, so, Mary, when her, when the investigation got narrowed on to Mary Bell, she suddenly remembered seeing an eight-year-old boy with Brian on the day he died. And she said that that boy hit Brian for no reason. And that she said that same boy had been playing with broken scissors.
39:59 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, the, but the boy, she was naming a specific boy. She was basically trying to pin it on him. But he had been at the airport that afternoon.
40:05 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, fuck.
40:06 Karen Kilgariff? And so, the thing that Mary didn't know is that the scissors were confidential evidence. No one knew about the scissors.
40:14 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, Mary.
40:15 Karen Kilgariff? That wasn't public.
40:16 Georgia Hardstark? When you're a fucking 10-year-old murderer, is that you didn't, you don't understand?
40:21 Karen Kilgariff? You can't keep your shit in line?
40:24 Georgia Hardstark? Dude.
40:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So.
40:26 Georgia Hardstark? Baffling.
40:27 Karen Kilgariff? She essentially implicates herself with the scissor comment and she had described them exactly. So she's trying to pin it on the other boy.
40:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
40:36 Karen Kilgariff? And in doing so, she's like, they were silver colored and some, there was something wrong with them. Like one leg was either broken or bent. So she basically describes the exact scissors to a T.
40:46 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, smart, smart, uh, smart investigating by the cops that they like figured this shit out pretty quickly.
40:53 Karen Kilgariff? And can you imagine sitting in an, in a room across from an 11 year old girl? When you see this picture, big blue eyes, little button nose, kind of vacant.
41:05 Georgia Hardstark? Just think baby Karen.
41:07 Karen Kilgariff? But just think baby Karen, I was precious lamp, but she's lying to you. So you're buying her at first and then she gives, she does the old Inglourious Basterds, holding up a three.
41:19 Georgia Hardstark? And you don't even want it to be true. Like you're not even like, we're gonna get this guy.
41:24 Karen Kilgariff? No.
41:25 Georgia Hardstark? It's like, wait a second, you just said this wrong thing.
41:28 Karen Kilgariff? Creepy enough that the coroner says, you're probably gonna want to look for a kid. Cause a kid strangled a three year old.
41:34 Georgia Hardstark? So you probably don't want it to be true. You probably have children of your own and this little girl is like.
41:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, the scissors. I mean, the chill that would go down your back. So. So, uh, okay. I did the slidey thing again, which I always do. So, um, Brian Howe was buried on August 7th. And the investigative detective was named Detective Dobson and he was there. And he says, Mary Bell was standing in front of the Howe's house when the coffin was brought out. I of course was watching her and it was when I saw her there that I knew I did not dare risk another day. She stood there laughing, laughing and rubbing her hands.
42:23 Karen Kilgariff? I thought, my God, I've got to bring her in or she'll do another one.
42:26 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
42:29 Karen Kilgariff? So they bring in Mary Bell.
42:33 Georgia Hardstark? Why are you laughing, psychopath?
42:35 Karen Kilgariff? Because it's me.
42:36 Georgia Hardstark? She's also rubbing her hands together right now.
42:38 Karen Kilgariff? No, because I'm picturing it and it's like how they, why don't they make this movie? It's the creepiest thing of all time.
42:45 Georgia Hardstark? Seriously.
42:46 Karen Kilgariff? This is like the ring, except for the girl has her hair back out of her face. And she's like, she thinks she's getting away with it. She wanted to kill that little kid. She killed him and then she wanted to see his dead body yet carried out of the house.
43:03 Georgia Hardstark? It's just, what's so crazy is the like, you know, when you, when adults kill, they like, try really hard to hide it and try to outsmart people. That's like what you do. But this little person who I guess you can argue didn't understand that either death was permanent or what it meant.
43:21 Karen Kilgariff? Maybe, maybe.
43:22 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe.
43:23 Karen Kilgariff? Or she enjoyed the feeling so much that she had done it. She, you know, because there was some killer that we talked about where they said, I want people to feel on the outside the way I feel on the inside. Was that the, one of those Cheshire murders?
43:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Uh, or was it the person you talked about last week? No.
43:44 Karen Kilgariff? Either way.
43:45 Georgia Hardstark? Facts, this is factual, factual corner.
43:47 Karen Kilgariff? This is fact based. Um, it's that thing of like, when you finally feel right in the world is when, like, that's how she felt right. She killed, she had the power to take his life away and put him in that box. She finally had power.
44:01 Georgia Hardstark? But she also had to be a little bit, um, like, uh, arrested in her, in.
44:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
44:09 Georgia Hardstark? She couldn't be smart enough. She couldn't have been smarter than a 10 year old. She was just, didn't understand right from wrong.
44:16 Karen Kilgariff? You don't think so?
44:17 Georgia Hardstark? Go on.
44:18 Karen Kilgariff? Because this is where it gets crazy.
44:22 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my God, this is where?
44:24 Karen Kilgariff? This is where, well, this is where it shows that she was raised by two criminals because her mother ended up marrying, um, I think his name was Billy Bell and he was like a career criminal. And so they clearly talked about being arrested, going in and out of jail and all this stuff. Cause when she's arrested, first of all, when they say, you're going to be charged with murder, she said, that's all right by me.
44:47 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
44:48 Karen Kilgariff? Um, and, uh,
44:54 Karen Kilgariff? She, she, sorry.
45:00 Karen Kilgariff? When she was in jail, there was a stray cat in jail.
45:05 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, fuck.
45:06 Karen Kilgariff? And-
45:07 Georgia Hardstark? Elvis, cover your ears.
45:08 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, Elvis, you're not gonna like this. She grabbed the cat-
45:11 Georgia Hardstark? No.
45:12 Karen Kilgariff? -tightly by the neck-
45:13 Georgia Hardstark? No, no, no.
45:13 Karen Kilgariff? -and the guard told her not to hurt the cat. And Mary allegedly replied, "Oh, she doesn't feel that, and anyway, I like hurting little things that can't fight back."
45:24 Karen Kilgariff? In another incident, a policewoman said that Mary said she'd like to be a nurse, quote, "Because then I can stick needles into people. I like hurting people."
45:35 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
45:36 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm. So there was kind of a naive quality about it. Then, also, the jailers, once she was in there, she calmed down a little bit after a while, and a lot of the jailers liked her, the guards, you know, because they said she was very smart. She was very sharp. But she was a chronic bed wetter.
45:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
45:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And she's got one of the pieces, probably two if we count those being overdosed on drugs by your mother-
46:05 Georgia Hardstark? And dropped out of a window.
46:06 Karen Kilgariff? And dropped out of a window.
46:07 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
46:08 Karen Kilgariff? Probably got two.
46:09 Georgia Hardstark? At least.
46:10 Karen Kilgariff? Um-
46:11 Georgia Hardstark? What's the other one, fires?
46:12 Karen Kilgariff? Fire, yeah.
46:12 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
46:13 Karen Kilgariff? No, no report of fire on her. But she was terrified of going to sleep because she was afraid she was gonna wet the bed. And, uh, she said to one of the guards, "I usually do." Um, and at home, her mother would humiliate her anytime she wet the bed. So she would rub her daughter's face in the pee-
46:37 Georgia Hardstark? Jesus.
46:38 Karen Kilgariff? -when she found it. And she would hang the mattress outside so the neighborhood would see it. So when they went to trial, Norma was acquitted of all charges, and Mary was convicted of two counts of manslaughter. So I think it, uh-
46:55 Karen Kilgariff? They say that Norma was there, Norma had like eight brothers and sisters or some huge family and their whole family was there supporting her and she did a lot of crying on the stand and saying Mary did it, Mary did it. And Mary did the same thing of saying Norman did it, but all she had was her lunatic mother who was wearing a blonde wig and would freak out so much and cry and do all these things that her wig would fall off. And then she would get up and run out of the courtroom and then come back. And so because of that Munchausen's by proxy, like this was her drama. Oh, for sure. She was basically, you know, say in the very slight chance that Mary wasn't guilty,
47:35 Karen Kilgariff? she was condemning her anyway because no one had sympathy for that family. Whereas everyone was like, oh, this little girl's just been set up by Mary Bell. Yeah. And then in the tabloids, Mary Bell just became the, just the face of evil for years and years. Yeah. Um, they didn't have anywhere to put her because they didn't have, they, they'd never had to deal with sending an 11-year-old girl to jail. So there was like lots of places for juvie for little boys, but none for little girls. So they had to keep her, they kept her in like a separate quarters in a, in a boys detention center. Wow. For a long time until she was in her teens. When she was in her teens, she escaped
48:17 Karen Kilgariff? jail for a little while with two other boys, but then they, then they were only gone for two weeks and then they went back. She spent, um, uh, up until her, like, I can't, I don't, I can't find it now. Um, I think it was like in her mid twenties in jail. And then when she got out, all of England was like freaking out. They were super pissed. She made money off a book that someone wrote about her. Again, they were like, we need to pass laws, you know? Yeah. Whatever. She got out and then what? She ended up becoming a grandmother, like a mother and a grandmother. Wow. She got pregnant. I don't think she got married and then she was...
48:59 Georgia Hardstark? Did she change her name?
49:01 Karen Kilgariff? There was, they passed a thing where they kept her, yeah, she's, she now lives under a pseudonym.
49:07 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
49:08 Karen Kilgariff? And they, like, the British people wanted that repealed. They wanted to make her live as herself.
49:14 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
49:15 Karen Kilgariff? But they, they, whatever, they continued the ruling that she could live under a pseudonym for the rest of her life.
49:26 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, wow, we are back. Karen, do you have any updates? I wanted to know, like, where is she now? So bad.
49:35 Karen Kilgariff? No one knows.
49:35 Georgia Hardstark? It's good that we don't.
49:36 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
49:37 Georgia Hardstark? However, there's this part of me that wants to know.
49:39 Karen Kilgariff? I know. I mean, like, that's like the other media training that we have, which is kind of like, this is, now we get the 15-year update, the 30-year update, like, whatever. But, no, they're, the adult Mary Bell and her daughter remain anonymous. They're protected under an order from the UK's High Court, so I think that's all good. I, I mean, I was talking to Alison Agassi, our writer, about the, this story and how, like, this child was raised with a mother who was actively trying to kill her all the time.
50:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
50:10 Karen Kilgariff? And horribly abusing her. And then it's like, I, it's, it's just mind-blowing to be like, that, if that's your perspective and that's how you get treated, we can't know, it's hard to imagine, because we take for granted that we were picked up and held and cared for and looked in the eyes.
50:29 Georgia Hardstark? And I feel like psychology, in the past, like, 10 years, at least for myself, is learning that the tools you learned as a child, that you had to learn, that helped you get through that period, were actually helpful. And so, in a way, this empathy that Mary Bell was able to turn off completely and have no care about anyone else and not understand other people's feelings. It was actually beneficial to her because she was being horribly abused.
50:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
50:56 Georgia Hardstark? It just turned into hurting other people as well, you know?
51:01 Karen Kilgariff? Right, which is, I think, kind of a common thread in all these stories.
51:04 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
51:04 Karen Kilgariff? You can't consistently hurt a child and think that that child should just be resilient. And hey, they're kids, they'll get over it. Like, it doesn't work that way.
51:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. The tools that you learn to protect yourself, you know, can turn on you and aren't always positive.
51:20 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
51:21 Georgia Hardstark? So.
51:21 Karen Kilgariff? Also, they're tools that you're just getting, like, and then as you grow up, you later, when you realize that of like, I don't need this anymore. It can be like shameful or embarrassing, but it's like, but that's just the human experience. It's like, you could, you just do it until you know better. That's what everyone's doing.
51:38 Georgia Hardstark? And you think it's who you are, it's your personality. I'm talking about myself at this point, about like dissociating and...
51:42 Karen Kilgariff? I'm only ever talking about myself. All the time.
51:45 Georgia Hardstark? There's, and that's yours, and talking about yourself all the time?
51:47 Karen Kilgariff? It really helps.
51:48 Georgia Hardstark? It's like, you don't realize it's in your personality, it's just like your learned behavior because it fucking helps.
51:53 Karen Kilgariff? It helps. Well, also, I had that realization about five years ago where it's like, oh, that's right. Stand-up comedy and wanting to be a comedian was a coping mechanism.
52:05 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
52:06 Karen Kilgariff? What? What? I could have just been like a marine biologist, like I wanted to.
52:10 Georgia Hardstark? You don't think marine biology is a fucking coping mechanism too? I think it is, personally.
52:14 Karen Kilgariff? Just staring at whales all day.
52:15 Georgia Hardstark? I love a whale. Oh, well, I hope your childhood was great.
52:19 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I guess.
52:20 Georgia Hardstark? I guess.
52:21 Karen Kilgariff? I guess you can focus on kelp all the time.
52:24 Georgia Hardstark? You're not terrified of the ocean? Well, congratulations.
52:26 Karen Kilgariff? Must be nice. Must be nice. Okay.
52:30 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. Ooh, this guy, this story.
52:32 Karen Kilgariff? Oh. We have to now go into, I think we talked about it at the time, I think we have talked about it multiple times since. Yeah. I will say it now, potentially one of the most nightmarish, horrible, human story ever.
52:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
52:47 Karen Kilgariff? Just absolutely terrible. Um, George is about to cover the death of Lisa Steinberg.
52:58 Georgia Hardstark? The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
53:02 Karen Kilgariff? Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.
53:07 Georgia Hardstark? That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.
53:10 Karen Kilgariff? Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know, and if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.
53:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.
53:54 Karen Kilgariff? That's simplisafe.com/mfm, and when you order, write in MFM at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.
54:01 Georgia Hardstark? SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.
54:04 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
54:05 Georgia Hardstark? Holiday shopping gets a lot easier when you can find something for everyone.
54:09 Karen Kilgariff? Especially when everyone includes yourself.
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54:26 Georgia Hardstark? Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50, and they also have beautiful 14-karat gold earrings and bracelets that make great gifts.
54:34 Karen Kilgariff? I was so excited when I got home and I got to break out my gray Quince cashmere sweater that I wear constantly around the house. We've been waiting for even the slightest temperature drop so that we could get into sweater weather, and finally it's here, and I celebrated with my beautiful Quince cashmere sweater that I think I got the second year we started doing ads for them.
54:58 Georgia Hardstark? They laugh.
54:58 Karen Kilgariff? They do.
54:59 Georgia Hardstark? Give the gift of quality this holiday season.
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55:11 Georgia Hardstark? And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was my favorite murder. It's the best way to support the show.
55:17 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
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55:53 Karen Kilgariff? What's your favorite murder of the week?
55:55 Georgia Hardstark? Hey. Mine is also a child murder.
55:57 Karen Kilgariff? Is it really?
55:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
55:59 Karen Kilgariff? That's weird.
56:00 Georgia Hardstark? Episode for parents. It is very weird.
56:03 Karen Kilgariff? That's crazy.
56:04 Georgia Hardstark? It's very weird. But this is, this is by, this is a parent, a parental murder. And this one stuck with me for, has stuck with me. I've read about it for a long time because there's a photograph of the little girl who gets killed.
56:20 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, you're not, oh, you're saying the child is murdered?
56:23 Georgia Hardstark? The child murder.
56:24 Karen Kilgariff? Got it, got it.
56:24 Georgia Hardstark? Child murder. Yes.
56:26 Karen Kilgariff? Got it.
56:27 Georgia Hardstark? So there's a photo of the little girl the day before her death that really fucking stuck with me. I hope that, do you hear that?
56:35 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, it sounds like thunder.
56:36 Georgia Hardstark? My fucking downstairs neighbor plays some video game, World of Warcraft.
56:41 Karen Kilgariff? Call of Duty?
56:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, Call of Duty. And it's just, so if you hear that, I'm sorry. So Lisa Steinberg, this poor little angel baby.
56:48 Karen Kilgariff? That's the one. That's the one.
56:50 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my God, it's heartbreaking.
56:52 Karen Kilgariff? This is the worst story. Okay, sorry.
56:55 Georgia Hardstark? It's okay. No, you're right. I'm breathing, not because I'm, okay. So it's in 1981, 45 year old Hetta Neusbaum and 46 year old Joel Steinberg, who was a defense attorney who sometimes handled adoption cases, Joel was. They took custody of an infant girl named, that they named Lisa and they illegally adopted her. The child's birth mother had paid Steinberg, the attorney, a $500 legal fee to place the child with a Roman Catholic family, but they just kept her instead. They were Jewish. I don't think that matters. But they, whatever, anyways. So this Hetta and Joel were a well-educated, they were upper class New York couple. They
57:38 Georgia Hardstark? lived in Greenwich Village in New York City. At school, Lisa's teachers said she was bright and friendly, but they worried about her writing at school with bruises and chunks of hair missing from her head. Oh. And she would tell them that her little brother, who was also a younger, was an adopted child, had hit her. And none of them had ever made reports of abuse, which changed a lot of stuff in the system. So there's a photo from Halloween, the day before this big incident happens, that one of the teachers took of Lisa. And it's just a photo of her at her desk. It's Halloween, all the other children are dressed up, and she's wearing her normal
58:18 Georgia Hardstark? clothes, and she's just kind of staring off and with this sad face, like an empty sad face. And the next day, on November 1, 1987, Hetta, the mother, calls the police to report that her daughter had choked on food. That's what she said. And when the police arrived, they found six-year-old Lisa Steinberg unconscious, and she had multiple bruises on her body, and the mother, Hetta, claimed that she had fallen a lot lately on her roller skates. So according to initial reports, on November 1, at around 7:00 PM, Joel Steinberg had
59:01 Georgia Hardstark? somehow rendered Lisa unconscious with severe blows to the head. And what Hetta later said, as the reasoning, was that Lisa wanted to go, quote, "Lisa wanted to go to dinner with her father, but he did not want to take her." And then he inflicted the head injury, because she wouldn't stop bugging him about wanting to go to dinner, before he left the apartment. But before he left the apartment, Lisa was unconscious. So he left, and the mother, Hetta, was alone with the kid who was dying for roughly 10 hours, failing to notify police or medical personnel.
59:36 Georgia Hardstark? Joel left and came back many times. They were freebasing cocaine sometimes together, because they were also like weird drug addicts. Yeah.
59:47 Georgia Hardstark? And she says she didn't, Heta said she didn't call authorities because she believed that Joel had supernatural healing powers.
59:56 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, God.
59:57 Georgia Hardstark? And she was waiting for him to come home and fix her, which we'll get into in a bit.
1:00:02 Karen Kilgariff? Don't do drugs. If you're gonna do drugs, don't adopt children, stupid motherfuckers.
1:00:06 Georgia Hardstark? No, don't. So around 6:00 AM the next morning, Lisa stopped breathing, and shortly after, Steinberg called 911 at Newsbomb's urging. Lisa died four days later in the hospital, and it was determined, determined the cause of death was a head injury apparently inflicted by what they say was a rubber-headed hammer.
1:00:26 Karen Kilgariff? Holy shit.
1:00:27 Georgia Hardstark? I know. It's heartbreaking. The St. Vincent doctors, this is according to Joyce Johnson, who wrote a book called What Lisa Knew, the doctors showed a quote "map of pain" on her body.
1:00:39 Karen Kilgariff? Ugh.
1:00:40 Georgia Hardstark? You know, this poor little thing, man, I wish, I wish I... They also, da-da-da-da-da, let's see, "The house was filthy and contained large quantities of cocaine and other drugs, and the couple was arrested on child abuse charges." New York law stated at the time that if one parent beats a child and the other stays silent about it, each is equally guilty.
1:01:04 Karen Kilgariff? That's good.
1:01:05 Georgia Hardstark? I know. But Heta was, I mean, is it? Because is that giving any understanding to the, to the other parent who didn't do it, who was probably abused as well and victimized?
1:01:18 Karen Kilgariff? True, true, true.
1:01:19 Georgia Hardstark? We don't know. But here's the, so, Heta was later found to have been abused by Joel. Throughout their relationship, she suffered from nine broken ribs, a broken jaw, and a broken nose. And if you look at photos of her at this trial and right after this happened, this person is fucking disfigured.
1:01:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:01:38 Georgia Hardstark? Like, this person's, she had to get cartilage from her quote "good ear" taken out to reconstruct her nose, which had collapsed.
1:01:47 Karen Kilgariff? Because he'd punched her so many times?
1:01:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So she wasn't prosecuted due to the belief that years of abuse had rendered her incompetent at the time of the murder.
1:01:57 Karen Kilgariff? That makes sense.
1:01:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And, yeah, we'll talk about fucking culpability, man. Instead, she was sent to a psychiatric hospital. In exchange for her testimony against Joel, Hetta was not prosecuted. And Joel was charged with first degree manslaughter.
1:02:16 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
1:02:17 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm. So, the trial.
1:02:20 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:02:21 Georgia Hardstark? Go ahead.
1:02:23 Karen Kilgariff? Why not murder?
1:02:25 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know.
1:02:27 Karen Kilgariff? I don't either, okay.
1:02:28 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, you know why? Because later it was said that if Hetta had called the ambulance at that moment, Lisa would have survived for sure.
1:02:39 Karen Kilgariff? Ah.
1:02:40 Georgia Hardstark? So...
1:02:41 Karen Kilgariff? So it wasn't his intent to murder her when he did kill her?
1:02:48 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:02:49 Karen Kilgariff? Jesus Christ.
1:02:50 Georgia Hardstark? Breathing, breathing, breathing, breathing. What's around us right now? Seafoam green wall.
1:02:56 Karen Kilgariff? We're here in 2016 and not in 80s New York in this horrible apartment.
1:03:00 Georgia Hardstark? What do you feel under your hand?
1:03:02 Karen Kilgariff? I just remembered as you were describing her appearance, there was an amazing article in Oprah's magazine that she, Hetta Nessbaum, wrote.
1:03:12 Georgia Hardstark? Well, she wrote a book.
1:03:13 Karen Kilgariff? Did she?
1:03:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:03:15 Karen Kilgariff? I bet that was just publicity then, and it was just an excerpt from the book.
1:03:18 Georgia Hardstark? I bet it was.
1:03:19 Karen Kilgariff? It was unbelievable.
1:03:19 Georgia Hardstark? She wrote a book about, she does like talks about being abusive relationships, and she wrote a book about it that I didn't really want to include because I don't want to make this about.
1:03:30 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:03:31 Georgia Hardstark? You know what I mean?
1:03:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:03:33 Georgia Hardstark? But, you know, she wrote a book.
1:03:33 Karen Kilgariff? It's just the side by side of her when she was young, when she first met him, and when she was arrested is, she looks like an old witch. And she was this gorgeous, young, New York woman.
1:03:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:03:45 Karen Kilgariff? When she met him.
1:03:46 Georgia Hardstark? I just have such a, I mean, this is the problem, is I've never been, it's not a problem, this is great, I've never been in an abusive relationship before, so I don't know the fucking...
1:03:56 Georgia Hardstark? The head games and the, the, and the, um, the way you have to
1:04:02 Karen Kilgariff? Rationalize.
1:04:03 Georgia Hardstark? Rationalize things in your head because this person you care about, you know, is doing these things and you want to believe that they, that they have no control over that. They're not doing it on purpose, that they would never hurt you. Otherwise, your whole fucking world is just shattered and
1:04:16 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:04:17 Georgia Hardstark? Insane. And on top of that, they're using strong, they're freebasing at this point.
1:04:20 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, freebasing cocaine is like, you're, you're doing crack.
1:04:24 Georgia Hardstark? You're a
1:04:25 Karen Kilgariff? Your crack head.
1:04:25 Georgia Hardstark? You're a psychopath.
1:04:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:04:27 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. Um, and there were, there was also some weird like cult stuff and they had been convincing her that she, like mind games with her, that she had been, um, sleeping around and had been, um, hypnotized and it, there was just some very fucked up mind games with this guy, Joel.
1:04:43 Karen Kilgariff? Ugh.
1:04:44 Georgia Hardstark? So, so, all right, so the trial. So this is actually the first trial which made New York, which turned New York into the 44th state to allow television cameras in the courtroom.
1:04:57 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, hell, yeah.
1:04:58 Georgia Hardstark? And this was like, fucking watch. Like, people tuned in constantly for this. So during the trial, they said that Lisa's injuries were severe, but she would have almost certainly survived if given prompt medical treatment. So this is probably why you had manslaughter. So, the jury wanted to convict Steinberg on the more serious charge of second degree murder, but they couldn't because, so they could only convict him of the, of the second, of the second most serious charge, which is first degree manslaughter.
1:05:28 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
1:05:29 Georgia Hardstark? So the judge then sentenced him to the maximum penalty then available. Guess, guess what, guess how long that is, Karen?
1:05:36 Karen Kilgariff? Um, God, is it seven years?
1:05:39 Georgia Hardstark? Eight and one-third.
1:05:40 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
1:05:40 Georgia Hardstark? To 25 years in prison.
1:05:43 Karen Kilgariff? And he's a lawyer, right?
1:05:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:05:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:05:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So on two occasions, so Steinberg served his time, on two occasions, he was denied discretionary parole because he never expressed any remorse for the killing. He never said he was, he hit her, he, it was always an argument that something must have happened with Heta. Yeah, the girl. But on June 30th, 2004, he was paroled under the state's quote, "good time" law, meaning he did good time. He was a good inmate. Congratulations, you killed a kid.
1:06:17 Karen Kilgariff? He wasn't, he wasn't a good father.
1:06:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:06:19 Karen Kilgariff? He was a rotten father and husband.
1:06:21 Georgia Hardstark? That's insane.
1:06:23 Karen Kilgariff? All right.
1:06:24 Georgia Hardstark? Um, okay. It mandates the release of inmates who exhibit good behavior while incarcerated after having served as little as two thirds of the maximum possible sentence. After his release, he moved to Harlem, um, and he works in the construction industry. He continues to maintain his innocence, but there was this really great New York Magazine article where this journalist, I don't have his name, uh, was like, clearly like this guy's full of shit. He was, um, interviewing his attorney who's like just a fucking dick lick motherfucker. Um, excuse me.
1:06:59 Karen Kilgariff? Why now?
1:07:02 Georgia Hardstark? What?
1:07:03 Karen Kilgariff? We say fuck every five seconds.
1:07:05 Georgia Hardstark? Why excuse myself? Excuse me.
1:07:07 Karen Kilgariff? Excuse me for that.
1:07:08 Georgia Hardstark? Something about dick lick motherfucker was a little more.
1:07:10 Karen Kilgariff? You, that was, that was one step too far.
1:07:13 Georgia Hardstark? Weirdly, that's something I say on the regular. Dick lick motherfucker. Learn it. Um, in the magazine article, he like needled Joel and finally Steinberg finally admitted that he quote, "pushed his daughter a little," quote, "with the soft pad, you know, on your palm." He finally kind of gave in. Cause the whole article, they were trying to, the, the lawyer was trying to make it seem like Joel was the victim of this like media slander to make Heta look innocent and him look guilty. And it's like, just what a piece of shit.
1:07:46 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:07:48 Georgia Hardstark? In 2003, Steinberg was ordered to pay Lisa's biological mother, the one who gave her up for adoption, 15 million for the quote, "heinous outrageous crime of murdering Lisa."
1:07:59 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
1:08:00 Georgia Hardstark? I'm a little like, do you deserve that money?
1:08:04 Karen Kilgariff? No, but still I like the idea he has to pay.
1:08:09 Georgia Hardstark? And then, but then a civil suit, Heta.
1:08:13 Georgia Hardstark? Was wanted to collect 3.6 million from Joel for eight years of beatings she said she endured and the permanent disfigurement she has suffered, which at that point, I'm a little like, this child died, you need to walk the fuck away.
1:08:30 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:08:31 Georgia Hardstark? Or am I being insensitive to?
1:08:32 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot of ways that we can offend people in this. But here's, this is my stance because I remember.
1:08:40 Georgia Hardstark? Wanting money is like such.
1:08:41 Karen Kilgariff? The wanting money is bullshit.
1:08:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:08:43 Karen Kilgariff? Because you, I understand that she was in an abusive relationship. I also understand that she was a drug addict, which is, a lot of people don't have empathy for that. I do. And I understand that you go into a place that is inexplicable and indefensible a lot of the time.
1:09:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
1:09:02 Karen Kilgariff? You don't ask for money for doing that. You make reparations, you fix your life, you make your amends, you clear away the wreckage of your past. You don't ask to be paid for the thing you fucked up.
1:09:15 Georgia Hardstark? The thing about it is, is like, you were an adult in this relationship, as mind fucked as you were, as victimized as you were, you stayed in it. You chose to stay in it until this awful thing happened. If that hadn't happened, you would have stayed in it and the children would have still been abused. It just so happens that, that Lisa died, that you got out of it.
1:09:40 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
1:09:41 Georgia Hardstark? And there's so many examples, I'm sure listeners too, who have figured out a way to get out of abusive relationships and how fucking difficult it is and awful it is, but you fucking do it. And that's your choice as an adult.
1:09:57 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, we're back. Yeah, it's hard to listen to us talk about and debate even with ourselves and our own conscience, like, who deserves what and why, as, you know, when it comes to justice and reparations and, you know, it's just such a different, it's such a different mindset back in 2016 than it is today.
1:10:18 Karen Kilgariff? Well, it's just ignorance. I mean, like, it's not, I don't think you and I have ever pretended to be anything or not. And so when we were having those kinds of conversations, it's literally just, and I Think why people like this podcast, we're just regular people that are like sharing our kind of like, oh, I guess this is what I think about this. And I think that's why listeners like it, because then they literally can be like, here's what I think about it, and here's why your answer either delights me or disgusts me. And then it's like, oh, right, what are we doing?
1:10:50 Georgia Hardstark? Like, we're doing critical thinking together.
1:10:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I mean, we got, I remember us getting follow up stuff about head and nuss bomb. And really good information that was like, it really did feel like the beginning of bigger picture, more to consider. It's not just you and I sitting in your apartment chatting.
1:11:09 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. And you know what's interesting to me about this is I am in the middle of J.C. Dugard's memoir, A Stolen Life. And it is harrowing and difficult and mirrors this story in a lot of ways and is really even now in 2025, opening my eyes to the abuse that victims endure. And J.C. just goes through this thing that is mind blowing and I will never understand. And you can never understand unless you've been through it. And just the space you need to leave open for people who have been in abusive relationships. And that, just the understanding that you will never understand.
1:11:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:11:46 Georgia Hardstark? So I'm trying to wrap my brain around that and looking at the story from that angle as well.
1:11:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:11:49 Georgia Hardstark? It's really eye opening to me.
1:11:51 Karen Kilgariff? Really quick, did I ever tell you about Adrian's mother in law and J.C. Dugard?
1:11:55 Georgia Hardstark? No.
1:11:56 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, I'll try to make this as fast as possible. Adrian, my sister's friend Adrian. Who she's also my friend, that's now the longer title that she has. Her mother in law, Pushpa, is this brilliant woman who
1:12:12 Georgia Hardstark? She's the teacher?
1:12:13 Karen Kilgariff? She is, no, that's my sister.
1:12:15 Georgia Hardstark? No, no, your English teacher, wasn't Adrian's mom the English teacher?
1:12:19 Karen Kilgariff? That's Adrian's mom, Judy.
1:12:20 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, who are you talking about?
1:12:21 Karen Kilgariff? Her mother in law.
1:12:22 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, got it, okay.
1:12:23 Karen Kilgariff? Pushpa. And Pushpa was a parole officer.
1:12:27 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
1:12:28 Karen Kilgariff? In that area.
1:12:28 Georgia Hardstark? And that's a big deal in this story.
1:12:30 Karen Kilgariff? It's a big deal because Pushpa got sent to that house. And she went back and said, something's not Right? They wouldn't let me in the front door. I, she actually tried to look over their shoulder. He was like at the front door, wouldn't let her look inside. Then she went around, even though he was like, no, no, it's all fine. So then she went around and peeked over the fence.
1:12:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
1:12:53 Karen Kilgariff? Saw the tarps.
1:12:54 Georgia Hardstark? Ah.
1:12:55 Karen Kilgariff? Went back to work and was like, you gotta go in there, something's wrong there. Blah, blah, blah. And they were like, we don't have any cause. They basically didn't listen to her. And they're, you know.
1:13:06 Georgia Hardstark? You gotta be a nosy neighbor.
1:13:08 Karen Kilgariff? Well, and also like, that kind of thing where it's like, especially that specific situation where she was held there for so long.
1:13:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:13:15 Karen Kilgariff? It's so awful. And like, the idea of at any point, something could have changed.
1:13:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:13:19 Karen Kilgariff? And it was just like, somebody on the other end being like, it's not that big of a deal.
1:13:24 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:13:24 Karen Kilgariff? Is so frustrating.
1:13:25 Georgia Hardstark? That's a huge part of the story is like, in her mind, it's like, no one cared.
1:13:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:13:30 Georgia Hardstark? No one was looking. And it was just.
1:13:32 Karen Kilgariff? Pushba was.
1:13:32 Georgia Hardstark? It was just a peek over the fence away because they didn't realize that the backyard went on further than it did.
1:13:40 Karen Kilgariff? Right. There's like a false.
1:13:41 Georgia Hardstark? Just where she was being kept? Yep.
1:13:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Yeah.
1:13:44 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, that's incredible. I mean, be the nosy neighbor, you guys.
1:13:48 Karen Kilgariff? That's the, um, Pushba's the one where, when Nora was like, five years old, Pushba asked her what she wanted to be for, what she wanted to be when she grew up. And Pushba's Sri Lankan. And Nora was like, I want to be a cheerleader. And Pushba goes, don't be a cheerleader, be a doctor. So we say that to Nora all the time.
1:14:09 Georgia Hardstark? She will be, you fucking know it.
1:14:11 Karen Kilgariff? I think it worked. I think it worked on her. I think like, just being able to accept that you have blind spots. Not that you're bad for them, not that it means anything, except for that you're a human being.
1:14:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:14:24 Karen Kilgariff? But just like, the humility of going, yeah, I must, and I know I do. And the way I see the world is just that.
1:14:30 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:14:30 Karen Kilgariff? The way I see the world.
1:14:31 Georgia Hardstark? Is from my own experiences and.
1:14:33 Karen Kilgariff? And that's a very singular experience. It's a very, and also, you know, having the internet, suddenly. Like, the world was like, there's more than your experience. And here it is, right here. And now you should have known this already. And like, it really was this very insane dividing line of like, all of a sudden, there were people snapping their fingers, being like, you should be smarter than this. And it's like, I know I should be smarter than this. Like, it's crazy. So, yeah, those kinds of like, I could never imagine, therefore, I don't even know.
1:15:05 Georgia Hardstark? You don't know what you don't know.
1:15:06 Karen Kilgariff? You don't know what you don't know.
1:15:07 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, I have a couple of case updates. The baby from the story, Baby Mitchell, Lisa's adopted younger brother, was returned to his birth mom. He was given a new name. And he eventually graduated with honors from his high school, earned a college degree, got married, and pursued a career in banking, so.
1:15:25 Karen Kilgariff? Beautiful.
1:15:26 Georgia Hardstark? Thank God for that.
1:15:27 Karen Kilgariff? Thank God.
1:15:27 Georgia Hardstark? Around the time Joel was being released from prison, which fucking Jesus Christ, had a noose bomb, changed her name, and moved out of New York so he wouldn't be able to find her. Her exact whereabouts are unknown. And, you know, you heard us talking about abusive relationships. So if you or anyone you know is struggling to leave an abusive partner, we wanted to give you a few resources.
1:15:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is free, confidential, available 24 hours a day. And it's 1-800-799-SAFE, 7233. So that's 1-800-799-SAFE.
1:16:03 Georgia Hardstark? And their website is thehotline.org, where you can find resources and also get involved in supporting survivors, either through volunteering or, hey, donation.
1:16:13 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, we do those. Let's please.
1:16:15 Georgia Hardstark? 10 grand to thehotline.org, the National Domestic Violence Hotline.
1:16:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, and if you have anything to give this New Year's, that would be amazing. I think that's an incredibly helpful charity to support.
1:16:28 Georgia Hardstark? Definitely.
1:16:29 Karen Kilgariff? Well, that was a heavy episode.
1:16:31 Georgia Hardstark? Sure was.
1:16:32 Karen Kilgariff? But at least we ended it on a donation.
1:16:34 Georgia Hardstark? We ended on donation and a Happy New Year.
1:16:37 Karen Kilgariff? That's right. Hey, Happy New Year. Everybody stay sexy.
1:16:40 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
1:16:42 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:16:44 Speaker 04 Elvis, do you want a cookie?
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