5 Keys to Find & Create the Perfect Relationship EP 1122

“Love expands when our capacity to accept each other expands.” - DeVon FranklinToday’s episode is a special one. We’ve had a lot of great conversations with guests about relationships and we wanted to put together a mashup of the best segments to help you take your relationship to the next level whether you’re single, in a new relationship or are in a long-term relationship. In this episode Lewis discussed with our guests why relationships are changing now more than ever, how we’ve been sold a myth about marriage, how to rewrite the stories that are holding you back from accepting love, how to build the foundation for a strong relationship, the biggest factors that help you become a more desirable partner, and so much more! FIRST SECTION:In this section, Psychotherapist Esther Perel talks about how the roles, rules and expectations in our relationships are changing now more than ever and how we can work through that to find the right type of partner. SECOND SECTION:In this section, Best-Selling Author DeVon Franklin talks about why we’ve been sold a myth about marriage. THIRD SECTION:In this section, Therapist Lori Gottlieb talks about redefining the stories about yourself that are holding you back from finding and accepting real love. FOURTH SECTION:In this section, Pastor Michael Todd shares how to build a strong foundation in the beginning of a relationship and how to do the work to be a better partner. FIFTH SECTION:In this section, Relationship Expert Matthew Hussey shares what factors we should focus on in our life that will make you a more desirable partner. For more go to: www.lewishowes.com/1122Our guest's most recent The School of Greatness episodes:Esther Perel: www.lewishowes.com/929DeVon Franklin: www.lewishowes.com/1106Lori Gottlieb: www.lewishowes.com/1013Pastor Michael Todd: www.lewishowes.com/1087Matthew Hussey: www.lewishowes.com/944 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to this special episode all about mastering relationships.

• 0:06Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:27Lewis Howes?

  Martin Luther King Jr. said, "I have decided to stick to love. Hate is too great a burden to bear." And author Paulo Coelho said, "When we love, we always strive to become better than we are. When we strive to become better than we are, everything around us becomes better too." This is a special episode, and we've had so many conversations with some of the most incredible relationship experts in the world. And I wanted to bring some of these key moments together to help you take your relationship to the next level. Whether you're single, you're in a new relationship, or you're in a long-term relationship, there are always ways that you can improve every area of that relationship. In this episode, we discuss why relationships are changing now more than ever,

• 1:10Lewis Howes?

  how we've been sold a myth about marriage, how to rewrite the stories that are holding you back from accepting love, how to build the foundation for a strong relationship when you're getting started, the biggest factors that help you become more desirable as a partner, and so much more. And if you're enjoying this at any moment, make sure to text this to a few friends, post it on social media, tag me at Lewis Howes over there, and let me know what part you're enjoying the most about this, as well as click the subscribe button over on Apple Podcasts to stay subscribed to the School of Greatness. Every single week, we've got some great content just like this. In the first section, we talk with psychotherapist Esther Perel, who shares how the roles, rules, and expectations in our relationships are changing now more than ever,

• 1:55Lewis Howes?

  and how we can work through that to find the right type of partner.

• 2:02Lewis Howes?

  ¿Por qué las relaciones parecida a que son tan difíciles para tantas personas cuando es lo que más necesitamos, para sentirnos vivos, felices y conectados?

• 2:13Esther Perel?

  Esta es la pregunta de un millón de dólares, sabes. Soy terapeuta de relaciones durante más de 35 años. Trabajo con personas en sus relaciones románticas, relaciones familiares, amistades, cofundadores, colegas, trabajadores. Así que, amor y trabajo, los dos pilares de nuestra vida, como dijo Freud. Y si pudiera decir, ¿por qué el simple sentimiento de amar o querer no es suficiente? Porque toda la drama humana es realmente compleja. De la misma manera que la naturaleza es compleja, así es la naturaleza humana compleja. Y he pasado toda mi carrera estudiando qué está cambiando en las relaciones.

• 2:58Esther Perel?

  ¿Son más complicadas hoy? ¿Son más dolorosos hoy? ¿Nuestras expectativas han cambiado? Y eso tengo respuestas. No tengo respuestas a por qué es tan...

• 3:12Lewis Howes?

  ¿Es más complicado ahora las relaciones que hace 50 o 100 años?

• 3:16Esther Perel?

  Sí, absolutamente.

• 3:18Lewis Howes?

  ¿Por qué?

• 3:19Esther Perel?

  Por una razón muy simple. Durante mucho tiempo vivimos, y todavía en muchas partes del mundo, viven en sociedades tradicionales donde las relaciones son claramente codificadas. Hay reglas claras, hay roles, hay obligaciones. Hay una estructura estrecha de la que no puedes salir, pero te dice claramente quién eres, dónde perteneces, dónde te basas y qué esperas de ti. Y no tienes demasiadas preguntas sobre quién es más importante su carrera, y quién se despertará para alimentar al bebé, y quién tiene derecho a exigir sexo. Y todos, cada esposo sabe exactamente lo que puede pedirle a su esposa, y la esposa sabe exactamente lo que no debe decirle a su esposo, y los niños saben su lugar, y los adultos pueden interrumpir. Todo esto fue superregulado.

• 4:04Esther Perel?

  Sabes exactamente que el domingo vas a visitar a tu familia, y que tienes que llamar a tu mamá, y que nadie...

• 4:09Lewis Howes?

  ¿Ir a la iglesia?

• 4:10Esther Perel?

  Y vas a la iglesia, o vas a cualquier otra institución religiosa donde vas a orar, para estar con la comunidad, etc. ¿Y sabes qué? Nadie necesitaba explicarte por qué es importante. Solo fuiste, porque dije eso.

• 4:24Esther Perel?

  And because that's what you do. That's what we do. And that's what we don't do, because what will the neighbors say? And there is a community that looks over you all the time. And the streets are narrow like that. And everybody knows what's going on in the neighbor's house. Right now, your best friends could be breaking up, and you didn't even see it coming. Nobody knows what goes on in the neighbor's house. That's where Where Should We Begin became, I think, so powerful. It gave you back a sense of what actually goes on in other people's lives. So that you're not alone, wondering, "Am I the only one who's going through all of this?" This tight structure of our society has moved into what we call today "network societies." Network societies is not tight knots, it's loose ends.

• 5:09Esther Perel?

  It's loose threads with commitment that can be revoked at any moment. That's why your women are constantly writing to you. "I thought we had something, and the next day he disappears." "I thought we had developed a sense of trust." You know, "Where is the care? Where is the loyalty? Where is the continuity?" All these things that now are not just set, fixed, they all have to be negotiated. Everything that was a rule is now a negotiation, a conversation. "Who's going to go to work? Are we going to move you to the West Coast? Or are you going to move with me to the East Coast? Are we going to have children? Are we ready to have children? How many children? Do we even want children?" You know, on and on and on. "Am I happy at work? Oh, I could do better.

• 5:54Esther Perel?

  Should I stay a few more months? Should I leave? Should I, you know, is this what I really want to do? Is this who I really am?"

• 6:01Lewis Howes?

  Is this my passion?

• 6:02Esther Perel?

  Is this my passion? You know, this identity quest the whole time? Is this who I want to be? Is this? And all of these questions are rather new questions. Why? Because in the past, or in other parts of the world today, you kind of know who you are. Seriously. You're the son of somebody. Even, you're the son of somebody. It starts with that. Ben, you know, and...

• 6:28Esther Perel?

  You probably will even do what your father has done. If you are a man and maybe not do much of any of the outside the house if you are a woman, or you may begin a charting course of working outside the house. And all of these things are very, very normative.

• 6:45Lewis Howes?

  And now it's different.

• 6:46Esther Perel?

  We don't have any of that at this moment. We, basically, I call it the identity economy. We spend our time trying to figure out, who am I? We have an enormous industry of self-help. You know, with this belief that we are self-made, that we can have self-fees, that we do self-care. It's this self, self, self that is so focused, such the center of everything, and so fragile. The freaking self has never been more fragile. We are constantly making sure that it doesn't get overwhelmed, that it doesn't get triggered, that it doesn't get violated, that it doesn't get shattered, because it stands there alone,

• 7:29Esther Perel?

  like the little Dutchman with his finger trying to hold back the dike. You know, and that is the times I think we are in at this moment. And there, that's the waters I think you swim in.

• 7:40Lewis Howes?

  Sure. Well, I think that's where suffering, inner suffering, comes from on the surface, is when you obsessively think about yourself. When you're obsessively self-centric thinking all the time.

• 7:51Esther Perel?

  Trying to improve yourself and feeling not good enough.

• 7:54Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 7:55Esther Perel?

  I think it's the combination. Comparing. Now, I don't know that people didn't compare themselves when they all went and stood on the steps of the church on a Sunday morning. I think communities, people have always compared themselves. But there was much, there was a different type of social control, the one that we have on social media today. Social control has always existed.

• 8:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:14Esther Perel?

  You know, so suffering is part of life.

• 8:20Esther Perel?

  Community and not being alone is what helps us with all our experiences, definitely with suffering. I look at the disappointments of relationships and the struggles that we have. Why are they so challenging? What is the challenge? What can you do about it? When is it you who can do something? And when do you have to realize the limitations that what you will do will not change another, necessarily? When it does and when it doesn't? And how does this manifest at work and at home? You asked me how relationships have changed. I think we've never had more expectations of love and work than we do today.

• 9:02Esther Perel?

  I think we expect today from love and work many things that we expected before from religion and from community. We want our relationships to be transformative, transcendent, meaningful, spiritual, purposeful, erotic, passionate, and we want it at home and we want it at work.

• 9:21Lewis Howes?

  How do we get it at work too?

• 9:22Esther Perel?

  Oh, because we want work to be purposeful today. We want work to, you know, to give me a sense of identity, of meaning, of self-fulfillment, of development. I don't just want to go to work only for the paycheck. I need the paycheck, but I also want the paycheck to be meaningful to me. Work has become an identity economy. It's not just what am I going to do, it's who am I going to be? And it parallels, it parallels, you know, what do we talk about at work? Transparency, belonging, authenticity, trust, psychological safety?

• 10:05Esther Perel?

  I mean, when did the entire emotional vocabulary enter the workplace to such a degree that soft skills, what they used to be called, which are emotional and social skills, relational skills, which is used to be seen as feminine skills? And feminine skills, you don't, you can idealize them in principle but disregard them in reality. And these soft skills have very quickly become the new hard skills.

• 10:32Lewis Howes?

  True.

• 10:33Esther Perel?

  And that's why I'm working in the workplace. It's not because I have changed and I suddenly am interested in work. It's because work has changed and is suddenly interested in what I have been doing for decades.

• 10:44Lewis Howes?

  I love this. I'm gonna ask you a question that may be hard to answer, maybe it's easy. But you've had, you've seen a lot of intimate relationships work and fail. Over thirty-five plus years, right?

• 10:56Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 10:56Lewis Howes?

  How many of the relationships, what's the percentage of people in your mind who are in intimate, long-term relationships, marriages or not married but together, are actually happy most of the time? Thriving, beautiful, I'm sure there's challenges, but like they're able to work through them with semi-ease? How many relationships in your mind are super happy and thriving after decades? Of the changes of the times, society, work, family, all the dynamics that happen in life?

• 11:30Esther Perel?

  So I have two ways of answering it. The first one is cultural. Your definition of happy and thriving and fulfilled is probably very different than many other cultures. Where being healthy, having enough to eat, having children, having grandchildren, having good jobs, being respected in the community.

• 11:52Lewis Howes?

  Is happy and thriving.

• 11:53Esther Perel?

  Is happy and thriving. It's not about you and I are talking on the couch and I'm pouring my hearts at you and you are telling me I'm the best thing that's ever happened to you in your life and all of that. Okay? So we...

• 12:04Lewis Howes?

  That's one version, yeah.

• 12:05Esther Perel?

  That's one version. It's you have got to look at the word happiness and thriving really in a cross-cultural context. Because a lot of us, by the way, who have the new definition, have parents who think about marriage and what is a happy marriage with the other definition.

• 12:22Esther Perel?

  And I'm wondering, you know, that maybe we are so unhappy because we want so many other things that are maybe not part of marriage. Hmm, we have such high expectations. We have super high expectations. I want, we want everything. We want a partner to be an entire community. My best friend, my trusted confidant, my passionate lover, my intellectual equal, my co-parent. And on top of it, I want with you to deal with all the physitudes of the everyday life and all of what we need to get to, all of that. And then we should also be passionate, great lovers, fantastic travelers. Traveling world. Exactly. You know, and very few of us. Go dancing every week, yeah. So Eli Finkel has a best answer for you on that. Okay. He's a researcher on marriage.

• 13:02Esther Perel?

  And basically what he says is that the good relationships of today are better than the relationships of history. But they're very few. Because the good, what you call that happiness is the top of the Olympus. It's climbing the mountain. And at the top of the mountain, the view is fantastic, but the air is also thinner. And not everybody can climb the mountain. The people who get to the top, their top is probably better than the tops of the past. Wow. And now, what is the top? It used to be that marriage was for survival. Then it became a romantic enterprise. And it became what I call the service economy, from the production economy to the service economy.

• 13:44Esther Perel?

  You want children, but no longer just eight, so you only want two. So sexuality becomes for pleasure and connection, so it becomes a service economy. It's no longer a production. And then from there, you go into identity, which is what? I want to become the best version of myself, and you're gonna help me do so. That's the identity story of marriage. And that goes up the Maslow ladder. Now, if I ask the question differently, I actually wanted to write that very article. Hmm. About ten, fifteen years ago, I said, ah, to write a piece, what are creative couples? And do you know, because creative was the word I was interested in, not so much happy, passionate, but creative. Meaning...

• 14:28Esther Perel?

  Not stable, not solid. But what is this thing, creativity? The spark? And I went and I asked almost a hundred people. Do you know couples that inspire you? Do you know couples that you think have that spark still? And the frightening thing was that the majority of people could sometimes come up with one, maybe two, and that was it.

• 14:54Esther Perel?

  You know, they knew people who were very good at renovations, and people who were great parents together, and people who were great business partners together. But that whole that you talk about, there were very few. And I thought, that is so sad. Because here we are, we want something. I mean, if I say good business partners or business leaders, you would give me ten people who you think inspire you to run a company. Or authors, or musicians, or... We all have a long list. Who can say what's your favorite musician? I mean, most of us have more than one. When it comes to intimate relationships, people have very few models. Now, maybe it is because what they want is so high that there is very few models, actually.

• 15:40Esther Perel?

  And that's probably the challenge of intimate relationships today.

• 15:44Lewis Howes?

  So how do we... How do we find, how do we create that in an intimate partner? Or is it setting a lower expectation for what we want? So that we don't...

• 15:54Esther Perel?

  It's both. I think sometimes if you lower your expectations, you're much better off, no doubt. Calibrate, so, back to Eli Finkel's research. Calibrating expectations is probably one of the most, the three main things for what he calls successful relationships.

• 16:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 16:10Esther Perel?

  And calibrating doesn't mean you lower your expectations necessarily, but you also diversify them. You don't ask one person

• 16:18Lewis Howes?

  Do everything.

• 16:19Esther Perel?

  to give you what a whole village should actually give you.

• 16:21Lewis Howes?

  Right. Okay. That was the first thing, what's the second? You said there's three things?

• 16:25Esther Perel?

  So one is the calibration of the expectation, two is the diversification.

• 16:31Esther Perel?

  And three, which is the one that very much speaks to me, is doing new things.

• 16:38Lewis Howes?

  With your partner?

• 16:38Esther Perel?

  With your partner. That if you do the things that you enjoy, that's really nice, that's comfortable, that's cozy, that solidifies the friendship. But if you want to create intensity, it demands risk-taking, doing new things outside of your comfort zone, a little bit more on the edge.

• 16:58Lewis Howes?

  How often should we be doing new things with our intimate partner?

• 17:01Esther Perel?

  I think as often, I mean, look, the answer to this is very simple. Often enough, but not too often that you become chaotic and you dysregulate. Right now, you're asking me a systemic question. This is true for an individual, a relationship, or a company. If you don't change or grow, you fossilize and you die. If you change too much, too fast.

• 17:26Lewis Howes?

  No stability.

• 17:26Esther Perel?

  If you have no stability, you go chaotic and you dysregulate. So how often, it depends on where you are at in your life. Are you the two of you? Do you have kids? Do you have little ones? Do you have aging parents? Are you taking care of somebody? What else is going on here? We'll tell you if this is a period where you need more stability, or if this is a period where it's time to go and be curious and explore and discover and go into the world and launch.

• 17:52Lewis Howes?

  Right. If you're a young 30-something female, I get this all the time from a lot of women who reach out to me, who are ending relationships that were really stressful for them, or they've been single for years and they're trying to figure out how do they find the right person or how do they create the right relationship for them that's going to be a long-term partner. If you're a female in your young 30s, what should they be thinking about? Like, should they be focusing first on themselves, growing themselves? Or what are the things they should be looking for? In the right partner.

• 18:24Esther Perel?

  I just wrote my current blog, which is a little bit of a critique of this taking care of yourself first.

• 18:31Lewis Howes?

  Okay, yeah, yeah.

• 18:32Esther Perel?

  So, because you learn to love yourself in the context of your relationships with others. You know, this idea that you go first to work on yourself here and then you prepare this little, nice little package and you bring it to relationships, that is completely off, actually. It's interactive. You do, you need a good amount of self-awareness, but you also need to be in relationships because it's people who help you become more aware.

• 19:00Lewis Howes?

  Practicing it.

• 19:01Esther Perel?

  Practicing it, but other people let you see who you are. It's by being with others that you get to know who you are, not just by sitting there alone and say, "Who am I? Who am I?"

• 19:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 19:10Esther Perel?

  But this is a relational perspective on life, and I will stand by that. Read the newsletter. I really poured myself into that one because I'm tired a little bit of this. No, what I will say to you, I'm tired of the "Go fix yourself"

• 19:26Lewis Howes?

  First.

• 19:26Esther Perel?

  First, and then go be in a relationship. Relationships help you to become who you are. That's what happens between children and their caregivers. The next thing is, instead of constantly thinking, "Who's the right person I'm gonna find", why don't you ask yourself, "Who do you wanna be?" Who should the other one be? No, maybe it's on occasion, ask, "Who will I be as a partner? Who have I been till now in my relationships? How have I shown up? What is it that I do?" Not just, you know, finding the right person. That's... No. What does it mean to find the right person? And there I will say, the simplest way of looking at it is this: There are many people you will love,

• 20:08Esther Perel?

  and they are not necessarily the same people that you will make a life with. Are you looking for a love story? Or are you looking for a life story?

• 20:18Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 20:18Esther Perel?

  You understand?

• 20:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 20:20Esther Perel?

  There are many people have had love stories. This is a whole different story. I never thought for a minute I would live with these people. Take something else to have a partner in life with whom you're gonna go through the pains, the sufferings, the challenges, the, you know, the, the, all of that.

• 20:34Lewis Howes?

  Can you have a life partner and still have a love story?

• 20:36Esther Perel?

  Of course, of course. You want the life partner to be a love story too. But the love stories per se are not life stories. It's different ingredients. It's different values. There's some things that you don't need in order to have a beautiful love story with someone. It lives in its encapsulated version on its own. You're not thinking, can I do this with you? Can I get old with you? Can I take you to my parents? Can, you know, do we share similar values? It's about values, life, not just about feelings. So when you're looking for the right person, it's not just what attracts you. It's who can you build a life with?

• 21:18Lewis Howes?

  In this second section, we talk with bestselling author Devon Franklin, who shares about why we've been sold a myth about marriage.

• 21:27Lewis Howes?

  What is the biggest lesson you learned about marriage and relationships? Being in a committed relationship during an extremely adverse time of the world? What's the biggest lesson for you?

• 21:38DeVon Franklin?

  How much time you got?

• 21:41DeVon Franklin?

  Bro, listen, I've learned so much, right? But here's the number one thing that I've learned. We have been sold a myth.

• 21:52Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, what is that myth?

• 21:56DeVon Franklin?

  That love heals all. You know, marriage is the answer. Like, if you're not married, there's something wrong with you. Like, you gotta be in a relate. Like, we've been sold a myth. And here's what I mean about the myth. We have held marriage up. Like, it's the top of the mountain. And when you get there, all of your problems are answered and gone.

• 22:23Lewis Howes?

  That's not true.

• 22:24DeVon Franklin?

  It's not true.

• 22:27DeVon Franklin?

  And that, that I, cause you know, from, from being, you know, from a kid, we're watching movies, we're watching television shows, we're listening to music, it's all about love, it's all about finding, it's all about getting to that mountain of, oh, when I find the one, then I can relax. No. Marriage is like getting to the beginning of the mountain.

• 22:47Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man, base camp.

• 22:49DeVon Franklin?

  Base camp, and guess where the summit is? And guess what? That altitude is steep, it's high.

• 22:54Lewis Howes?

  It's hard to breathe up there.

• 22:55DeVon Franklin?

  It's hard to breathe up there. It's jagged, it's not a smooth, you know, ride. That's what marriage is, and so, you know, understanding, you know, and be, and coming into the myth of it, it's like, oh, got it. I love my wife, she loves me. The union is great, yet we got work to do. And, and until we do our work, the union itself can't subsidize it. And so that myth, that marriage is the answer, was one of the myths that I, you know, came completely,

• 23:32DeVon Franklin?

  directly had to confront. And what I realized-

• 23:35Lewis Howes?

  When did you confront it? At what, what year in the marriage? Or what day?

• 23:42DeVon Franklin?

  You know, you know what it was, is that it was gradual. You know, it was gradual for me, you know, and part of that gradual revelation was looking for the marriage to bring me a certain level of fulfillment that I was not actually pursuing on my own.

• 24:03DeVon Franklin?

  So, so don't get me wrong, yes, marriage is great, love is great, it can be fulfilling. However, if we are not actually doing our work, and finding out what makes us happy, what makes us fulfilled, and we're relying on the union to do that, we, we, we ultimately find ourselves becoming manipulators.

• 24:26Lewis Howes?

  To get what we want.

• 24:27DeVon Franklin?

  To get what we want. We're trying to like-

• 24:30Lewis Howes?

  Because we expect that that person or the relationship is supposed to provide us something.

• 24:34DeVon Franklin?

  Exactly.

• 24:35Lewis Howes?

  What is the relationship supposed to provide us?

• 24:38DeVon Franklin?

  Here's what I believe a, a great relationship provides, right? One, first and foremost, um, you know, let's look at it for a minute like a business, right? So you, you know, if you have a, if you have a business and you have a partner, uh, what, what makes a great partnership? When both bring something to it, right? Because you have a partner.

• 24:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, if your partner is just taking everything and not adding value to the business, you're like, why is this person making money?

• 25:04DeVon Franklin?

  There you go.

• 25:05Lewis Howes?

  Why am I paying back into this person?

• 25:07DeVon Franklin?

  There you go. So when you look at it that way, you know, the purpose of a relationship is both people making a contribution so that that contribution enriches the lives of both, right? So I'm bringing something, you're bringing something, now we both, you know, our happiness, our joy is enhanced. It's not created. This is very important. The myth is that the marriage will create your happiness. It's not true. It can enhance it if you already have it. So if you have a partnership, both people are bringing their contributions and then as a result, your business thrives because you have two people who are committed. Here's the second part.

• 25:52DeVon Franklin?

  Both going in the same direction.

• 25:53Lewis Howes?

  Is that related to values then?

• 25:56DeVon Franklin?

  It's related to values. It's related to purpose, you know? I had one of my friends, you know, we were talking and they kind of gave me this visual, right? And so I think this is, and it was very helpful when it came to like marriage and relationships and how to think of them. So they were like, all right, so I want you to look forward, like do a visualization and I want you to look forward. And when you look forward, I want you to see God. I said, okay. And they said, now start walking to God. I said, great, I'm walking to God. Now, they said, now your partner is right next to you, right?

• 26:40DeVon Franklin?

  So hold their hand. Great, I'm holding their hand and now we're both walking to God. It's beautiful. Now, turn to your partner and then they turn to you and now try to walk to God.

• 26:59DeVon Franklin?

  It's challenging. Exactly. You're sidestepping over there, you know? You're like a crab or something. Exactly, precisely. So, when you talk about the, you know, what is the purpose of a union? A purpose of a union is that when you have your right purpose partner, and that person is committed to you, and you're committed to them, and you both are heading in the same direction, you both can walk together. Right, right. But when you're trying to get somebody, you know, to a direction that they otherwise may not want to go. They're turning the opposite way. They're turning the opposite way. Or they're trying to get you where you may not want to go. You can't get there from there. So, I believe that the purpose of a relationship

• 27:41DeVon Franklin?

  is, one, you know, making a contribution to each other's happiness, you know, having that partnership. Not making the other person happy. You cannot do it. Contributing to the other person's happiness. This is why I wrote the book. You can, this is another myth. This idea, how many times have you seen it in movies? How many times have you heard people say it? "Oh, this person makes me happy." "Oh, they make me so happy." It sounds so good to say. But what happens when you say someone makes you happy? It means you are outsourcing your happiness to that person. Ooh. Because that same person that makes you happy can then make you mad. Okay, so then tell me, who's in control of how you feel? The other person. Exactly. So, why don't? You're a victim to their... There you go.

• 28:26DeVon Franklin?

  Their, their, their way of being, whatever they're doing. Their way of being, their mood. I don't, but here's the reality. No matter how much somebody loves you, they don't, there's, it's impossible for someone outside of us to contribute to our happiness in, in a perfect way, 24/7. So, is love enough? No, no. Is love enough? No. You can love somebody and not stand them. Right. Right? I love my wife, my wife loves me. We still have to do our work and make the commitment to walk this thing out. Right? Like, we still have to communicate. We still have to understand, like, "Oh, okay, that's your issue," or "That's my issue," right? Like, so, love is great,

• 29:11DeVon Franklin?

  but love is not enough. And that's the myth. People think like, "Oh..." Love is all you need. That's all, that's right. All I need is love. No. You make me feel good when I hear that. Right. But it's not all you need. No, you need compatibility. You need compatibility. I need compatibility. Like when you have compatibility, when, again, you talk about people going in the same direction. It's like, okay, cool. We're committed to going in the same direction. We're committed to the same type of life. We're committed to allowing each other to be our, the full self that we were created to be. That, to me, in addition to love, is what can make a great marriage or make a great relationship. But love alone, it's not enough. There's a lot of people you love you can't stand. There's a lot of people you love that you broke up with.

• 29:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 29:57DeVon Franklin?

  Because you say, you know, I love them, but we're just not compatible. And that love may never go away. But so often, we're romanticizing love in a way that it produces so much pain in those who don't have it.

• 30:11Lewis Howes?

  As a movie producer, that produces a lot of movies around faith and love and community and connection,

• 30:20Lewis Howes?

  I'm sure there are some lines in your movies that you produce. You didn't write the scripts.

• 30:24DeVon Franklin?

  No, I didn't write.

• 30:24Lewis Howes?

  You produce the scripts, you produce the movies that have lines like this, that maybe remind people of this way of living. You make me happy, or whatever the line is, right? I'm sure there's somewhere in one of your movies. As someone who's producing certain movies for entertainment, knowing that sometimes maybe there's a line in here and there that, that's not really true for you or where you're at in relationships. How do you navigate that? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but just how do you navigate that as a human, knowing that's coming out in some of the entertainment?

• 31:01DeVon Franklin?

  Right. In the movies that I do, I always try to put in truth. So this point of view is something, you know, the movie that comes to mind that I worked on when I was an executive was Jumping the Broom. And that was a romantic comedy, you know, an upper-class family, working-class family, you know, get their, the son from the working-class family marries the woman, this daughter from the upper-class family in a weekend wedding in Martha's Vineyard. And Laz Alonso and Paula Patton, you know, were in that film. And my wife, Megan, was one of the stars of that film. And we started dating at the Premiere, you know, from the premiere, about nine months after production, which was very cool. And in that movie, you know, we intentionally put, I've worked on that to make sure we put real truth

• 31:45DeVon Franklin?

  on the difficulty, right, of like, yeah, you can, two people can love each other, but then what do you do with their families? How do you navigate conflict? How do you navigate an overbearing mother? How do you navigate, you know, parents who have a certain image for what they wanted for their daughter? And who their daughter's marrying doesn't align with the image? And so that movie has a lot of truth in it. And ultimately, you know, we didn't cut corners at all, and that's why the movie was so successful. And I'm getting ready to do another romantic comedy and we're putting more truth in. So for me, I'm always mindful and cognizant

• 32:16Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:16DeVon Franklin?

  of how I feel and think about love. And I try to represent that when I'm doing movies that are on that subject. Because I'm not trying to sell a fantasy. Right, I want to sell the reality in that, yes, you can win and yes, when you find that partner that you fall in love with.

• 32:31Lewis Howes?

  But there's gonna be challenges.

• 32:32DeVon Franklin?

  But it's gonna be challenges.

• 32:33Lewis Howes?

  There may be more challenges of the different classes or different backgrounds or cultures.

• 32:37DeVon Franklin?

  Absolutely.

• 32:38Lewis Howes?

  I'm a big believer, whether this is true or not, that we, we talk about, we write, we podcast on the things that, we become experts on the things that we need the most.

• 32:50DeVon Franklin?

  Yes.

• 32:51Lewis Howes?

  So at the School of Greatness, I talk about all subjects. So it means I'm flawed in pretty much every area of life.

• 32:56DeVon Franklin?

  I don't believe it, but I hear you.

• 32:58Lewis Howes?

  And I'm constantly looking for more wisdom to improve, right?

• 33:00DeVon Franklin?

  Yeah.

• 33:02Lewis Howes?

  Where do you feel like in the relationship side of things that you, I think I asked you this question last time, a couple of years ago. Where do you feel like you still need the most improvement? In, in relationships for you?

• 33:13DeVon Franklin?

  Yeah, um, so I need the most improvement in a number of areas.

• 33:19Lewis Howes?

  How long do we have?

• 33:20DeVon Franklin?

  Exactly. Let's just be honest, okay? I have not perfected this thing and I'm working on it every day. And anybody that tells you they perfected it, they gonna lie about everything else. So the, the first area that I'm working on, and, and you may relate to this because of the work that you do. You know, my father passed away when I was nine years old. You know, he passed away of a heart attack when he was thirty six. And it was a very traumatic, you know, experience for me and my brothers. So my older brother's three and a half years older. My younger brother's three and a half years younger. And so, coming out of that, you know, my mother didn't have money for therapy or anything like that. And so, you know, we were in church and we watched movies. Yeah. Right? And so, and then also I was very active in school.

• 34:04DeVon Franklin?

  And what I began to see is like, oh, okay. If I perform or achieve at a certain level, people would say, oh, Devon, good job. Right? Pat me on the back, right? So, I said, oh, got it. So the more that I serve at church, or the more I achieve at school, or the more that I, you know, do my chores at home, the more approval I would get. Yeah. So what I began to do was I began to seek that out. And I began to become really good at meeting everybody else's need. Ooh. And so, that persona, right, of like, oh, you need something done, give it to Devon. Yeah, yeah. Right? It's like, oh, yeah, I'm your guy. I can do it, da-da-da, right? Because I was finding my value in all of the achievement and all of the approval that came with it.

• 34:49DeVon Franklin?

  In my, in middle school, people started calling me Mr. Perfect. You know, and at first I was like, oh, this is great. I love that. Oh, wow, Mr. Perfect, right? But then as I got older, it became a trap. Hmm. Why? Because I'm not perfect. No one's perfect. But I had this image that I had to live up to. I had this expectation of myself that, oh, I've got to do everything perfectly. Right? So getting to your question. A lot of pressure. Oh, my goodness. Are you kidding me? It's exhausting. It's exhausting. That's why I talk about in the book, I had to kill Mr. Perfect. I said, I gotta, I gotta let go of this persona because, you know, I'm not that and I need to be who I really am. And so, when you talk about what the area I need to improve on, so, you know, bringing that into marriage, right, like, hey, I'm here to serve

• 35:33DeVon Franklin?

  and I'm here to be the best husband I can be and I'm here to give and I'm here to sacrifice. Oh, that's beautiful. Mm-hmm. But when it crosses boundaries. But here's the boundary, though. Yeah. The problem is that no matter how altruistic you or I may want to be Mm-hmm. in our relationships with our women, if we do not first acknowledge that we have needs. Right. Our altruism is flawed. Hmm. How so? Because we are serving.

• 36:09DeVon Franklin?

  In order to feel the whole in our soul.

• 36:13Lewis Howes?

  Approval.

• 36:13DeVon Franklin?

  To get approval, to, to, there you go.

• 36:16Lewis Howes?

  Get a pat on the back.

• 36:16DeVon Franklin?

  There you go.

• 36:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:17DeVon Franklin?

  You know, and then also it's like, oh, well, no, I don't have any needs. No, I'm here to meet your need. No. You're human. I'm human. I got needs.

• 36:23Lewis Howes?

  I think I can relate to this big time for most of my life until, up until recently. I would do things in order to receive love and relationships. And I would not do things, um, if someone got upset at me. I would not do those things anymore to just try to make them happy so they would continue to love me.

• 36:44DeVon Franklin?

  Phew.

• 36:45Lewis Howes?

  Even when it would cross my boundaries or when I didn't agree with something, I would do it to make the other person like me, love me, make, you know, be happy with me. And then I found myself resenting myself, the longer that would go on, because I was doing things that I didn't believe in or didn't agree with, or there was a boundary of mine that was crossing my, my line to serve someone else.

• 37:06DeVon Franklin?

  Yeah.

• 37:06Lewis Howes?

  And I think it's, it's learning that balance probably, or like navigating and, and learning how to communicate expectations, which is a lot about in your book, which I love. The whole book's about setting clear expectations.

• 37:17DeVon Franklin?

  Right.

• 37:17Lewis Howes?

  And not going into a relationship with the viewpoint of, well, this is the way a relationship's supposed to look based on society.

• 37:24DeVon Franklin?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:25Lewis Howes?

  Like just thinking that the other person knows what you think. And they know, and you know what they think, and having that is not gonna work.

• 37:34DeVon Franklin?

  It ain't gonna work. It ain't gonna work.

• 37:35Lewis Howes?

  And after nine years, not to put your marriage on the spot or anything, but after nine years, how important is still communicating expectations nine years into marriage?

• 37:49DeVon Franklin?

  Man, it's the, it's every day, right?

• 37:51Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 37:51DeVon Franklin?

  Oh, oh, you can't autopilot this thing.

• 37:55Lewis Howes?

  You can't say, this is what I expect one day, and then it'd be good for the rest of life?

• 37:58DeVon Franklin?

  Never. It will not work. It won't work. And here's why, you know? I go back to that, that, that, our flaws, right? We're, we're all flawed.

• 38:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:08DeVon Franklin?

  All of us, and all of us have traumas and tragedies and things that we have experienced in our life that we have compartmentalized.

• 38:16Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:16DeVon Franklin?

  And that's why I go back to this earlier thought of like, you know, the myth that marriage is, is, is gonna, you know, it's, it's gonna save you and it's everything. The reason why I think that's a myth is because the more you are with somebody and the more that you love them and they love you. The more those flaws. Fears come out. The fears come out. The trauma because of vulnerability. And you're actually sharing your life with someone and you're allowing someone to see who you are. And there's also certain things you don't know that you've gone through. That have impacted you to the level that they have. It's coming up now. Exactly. And so in a great relationship, it serves as a great mirror. So when you talk about setting expectations, you know, nine years in.

• 39:01DeVon Franklin?

  It doesn't stop because all of us are changing. And also to that point, you, we have to learn to communicate. We have to get our words out. We have to say, okay, you know, hey babe, can I expect this? Can you expect that? Let's get to the middle so that we understand, okay, cool. Here's what I can hold you accountable for. Here's what you can hold me accountable for, instead of assuming. And that assumption, again, no, no matter how much they love you, no matter how long you've been together. No one can read our minds. No one. No one, no one. And so when you start behaving, and then here's what happens. Dude, you, you, you, we have these unspoken expectations. Unspoken expectations are relationship killers. You have this unspoken expectation.

• 39:46DeVon Franklin?

  You treat the person as if you have spoken it and they know it. Yeah, and you fault them for it. And then you judge them. You judge them when they don't meet the expectation they may not have been aware of. And then you make a false assumption about their intent for you. They don't care about me, they don't believe me, they don't think about me. There you go. And, and. They're selfish, whatever. There you go. And so in our head, we become the judge and jury over somebody. Without even telling them. Without even telling them. What they were supposed to do. Exactly. And giving them the opportunity to say yes or no. That's it. That's it, because too often in relationships, we're trying to control.

• 40:29DeVon Franklin?

  And so just because you have an expectation, it does not mean that person is obligated to meet it.

• 40:34Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:34DeVon Franklin?

  That person has to agree.

• 40:36Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:36DeVon Franklin?

  That person that you're with is free, the same way you're free, okay? And if they want to meet that expectation, great, and if they don't, then you can talk about what that means.

• 40:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:45DeVon Franklin?

  Hey, okay, you know, I have a certain expectation, okay, that's not something you want to meet. All right, let's talk about if we are compatible. Let's talk about if we are going in the same direction.

• 40:54Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:54DeVon Franklin?

  Very important, instead, we suppress, we allow these feelings to fester. We get mad, we, we then get bitter.

• 41:04Lewis Howes?

  Make wrong.

• 41:04DeVon Franklin?

  You know, and then we, you know, someone asks us a question, we turn a cold shoulder. You know, it's like, well, why? Because we haven't actually communicated. We haven't actually asked the question, hey, can I expect this from you? Is this okay? Is this all right? Is it not? Is it cool?

• 41:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:16DeVon Franklin?

  Right? And so that's why, you know, in the book, I spend so much time talking about communicating expectations, learning to set expectations, just because they know, because they love you, doesn't mean they know. And, and, and I have seen so many relationships go by the wayside because there was this idea, this myth that, oh, just because they love me, they're supposed to know what I want.

• 41:37Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 41:37DeVon Franklin?

  They don't know. Everybody has a different upbringing.

• 41:40Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 41:41DeVon Franklin?

  They were exposed to love and marriage in different ways. And so what may look like love to somebody may look like death to somebody else. So you gotta communicate and find the, the, the happy medium of what you, what works for your relationship.

• 41:56Lewis Howes?

  How do we learn to love ourselves so much that it doesn't matter what our partner does or doesn't do?

• 42:01DeVon Franklin?

  Oh, man, Lord have mercy.

• 42:03Lewis Howes?

  Like, is there a way where you can fall in love with yourself without a sense of ego?

• 42:07DeVon Franklin?

  Yes.

• 42:07Lewis Howes?

  Like, I'm, I'm God, but

• 42:09DeVon Franklin?

  Yes.

• 42:10Lewis Howes?

  Love yourself so much that it doesn't matter if your partner meets your expectations, communicated or uncommunicated, whether they're supporting you in the way that you want or not, whether they're proud of you or not, is there a way that we could do that? Or should we be expecting something out of our relationship in return? You know, either way.

• 42:30DeVon Franklin?

  Bro, listen, listen, man, um, you know, listen, I, my, my views on this may be a little contrarian, so I'm just gonna speak my truth.

• 42:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:42DeVon Franklin?

  Um, one of, so I'll answer the love question in a minute of self, but I want to hit the piece that you just hit, which is the expectation, right?

• 42:50Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 42:51DeVon Franklin?

  I personally believe that if you give to get in a relationship, you are on thin ice and the sun is coming out.

• 43:06DeVon Franklin?

  Because.

• 43:09DeVon Franklin?

  Right, right, right. Because again, what happens is you're not free. You're not free. You're not actually giving from your heart because that's what you want to do. You're giving from manipulation.

• 43:25Lewis Howes?

  To get something in return.

• 43:26DeVon Franklin?

  To get something in return. So you're treating that relationship like the stock market. Right? Well, yeah, if I give a certain amount of money to a certain stock or portfolio, I can expect a certain return.

• 43:35Lewis Howes?

  Hopefully it goes up.

• 43:36DeVon Franklin?

  Right, hopefully it goes up, right? But that's the dynamic, you know? But relationship is not, it's not stocks, man. That's somebody's heart. That's somebody's life. And so when you're investing in someone with the hope that they'll do something for you, you're messed up.

• 43:54Lewis Howes?

  What if that person never contributes in the way you contribute, let's say? After years, is it, is it the right relationship still?

• 44:01DeVon Franklin?

  Okay, this is true.

• 44:02Lewis Howes?

  Should you let go of the expectation, well, I don't need that in return?

• 44:05DeVon Franklin?

  Great. So here's how I think you answered it, and I want to hit the love part too. So, so I believe everyone should give freely from how they feel and want to feel. And they give to that person because that's what's in their heart to do. Over time, it's not an indictment on that person if that person isn't giving as much. It just may be a revelatory about compatibility. Right? It's like, oh, okay, got it. You know, the person that's giving, right? I'm in a relationship, you're in a relationship because you have needs. You want those needs to be met. Oh, okay, I'm seeing there's an imbalance. Right? Like, I feel great about everything I'm giving, but I also recognize that there's some needs that are not being met.

• 44:51DeVon Franklin?

  Maybe there's some compatibility issues we need to talk about.

• 44:54Lewis Howes?

  Or you can communicate about it and see.

• 44:55DeVon Franklin?

  That's right. That's exactly right. Like, hey, you know, look, I have needs. I'm in a relationship because I want people to contribute to these needs. Like, I'm gonna be fine no matter what, but I'm in this relationship because I actually love the idea of someone else, you know, contributing to my well-being. So you have to assess it and see if there's compatibility and alignment, not point the finger.

• 45:22DeVon Franklin?

  Because so often, we're so ready to point the finger. Oh, this person's not giving as much as me. Oh, it's like, no, no, no. If life is a mirror, what is the mirror reflecting? What is a relationship reflecting? And oftentimes, in my experience, relationships are the greatest teachers

• 45:38Lewis Howes?

  Greatest.

• 45:39DeVon Franklin?

  of who we are.

• 45:40Lewis Howes?

  Greatest.

• 45:40DeVon Franklin?

  Right? Who we are and who we aren't, okay? Like, like, and too often, people run from difficult relationships.

• 45:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:49DeVon Franklin?

  I believe that you should, whatever the lesson is you gotta get about you, before you break up.

• 45:54Lewis Howes?

  Heal it within the relationship first.

• 45:55DeVon Franklin?

  There you go. Because then you take that healing to the next relationship. If your relationship is revealing your own brokenness and your issues that you gotta deal with, and then you're saying to that other person, oh, it's your fault, that brokenness and that healing that you didn't do, you're taking it wherever you go.

• 46:13Lewis Howes?

  Next, we talk with therapist Lori Gottlieb, who talks about redefining the stories about yourself that are holding you back from finding and accepting real love.

• 46:25Lewis Howes?

  So people come in because they're in pain, and they want the pain to go away. Yeah. And they try, maybe they tried something else that didn't work, and you're like, talk medicine, right? Without having to take a pill, how can I relieve this pain, this suffering, this problem? But the problem, what I'm hearing you say, is never about another person, it's always with them.

• 46:45Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, not always. I think that relationally, a lot of people don't realize that even if the other person is problematic. So, right, when I was training, one of my clinical supervisors once said, "Before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by assholes."

• 46:58Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:58Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? So, you know, it's not like there aren't problematic people out there.

• 47:01Lewis Howes?

  Their environment.

• 47:02Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. But then, what is your response to that? And I think that people don't realize how much agency they have. They don't realize that they can choose their response to their circumstances, they can choose their response to the people around them. And I'm not saying that there aren't incredibly daunting circumstances right now in the world, for example. But then, how do you respond? You know, what are you going to do about it? And I think that's where people get stuck.

• 47:27Lewis Howes?

  And you talk, I love your TED Talk, because you talk about rewriting your story from the past. And I believe that we, we hold on to our stories, and we probably continue to write them in a more powerful way that keeps us trapped or traumatized. Is that fair to say? That something happens in our past, we hold on to the story daily, or whenever we're triggered, and it's like amplifies the story in our minds.

• 47:50Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, it does. And, and the problem is that often, whatever that version of the story is, we carry with us, and we never revise it. And so, you create a story when you're younger, for example, about something that happened in your life. And then, as an adult, you've never looked at that story through the adult lens. You're still looking at it through the childhood lens. And so, that's why I say that when people come in, that we're all unreliable narrators.

• 48:15Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 48:15Lori Gottlieb?

  That we all tell a story through, you know, this lens. And, and the thing is, these are usually faulty narratives. So, there's a, there's a broader version of the story that people haven't looked at. And so, I feel like, in a lot of ways, what I do as a therapist is I act as an editor, and I have, of course, a writing background. And so, I help people to revise their stories. Because the reason they can't move forward in the story, the reason they can't get to the next chapter, is because of something is wrong with the story. They are stuck. And so it's almost like I'm helping them with writer's block.

• 48:49Lewis Howes?

  I mean, for me, life is an interpretation.

• 48:51Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 48:52Lewis Howes?

  Right? There's an instance that happens, and we can interpret it as good or bad, or we can interpret it as this is a neutral event, and I'm gonna make the most of this. Is that fair to say?

• 49:02Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, absolutely. And also, how we attribute other people's parts of the story, right? So who are the villains and the heroes in this story? You know, I talk in the book about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. And idiot compassion is what our friends do. They back up our story, no matter what. We say, "This happened. This happened with my boss. This happened with my partner. This happened with my parent, right? This happened with my best friend." And we say, "Yeah, that was terrible."

• 49:28Lewis Howes?

  Screw them.

• 49:29Lori Gottlieb?

  Screw them, they're a jerk. You know, "That's awful. You're right, they're wrong. Don't let anyone treat you that way." That's what we do. And if you've listened to your friends' stories, you start to realize over time that even though the situation and the names might be different, the kind of story they're telling is similar. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you.

• 49:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 49:49Lori Gottlieb?

  But we don't say that. That's idiot compassion.

• 49:51Lewis Howes?

  Idiot compassion is where we, as friends, say, "Yeah, you're the best person in the world. This person's horrible."

• 49:58Lori Gottlieb?

  Yep.

• 49:58Lewis Howes?

  Leave them, or let them go.

• 50:00Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 50:01Lewis Howes?

  Forget about them. Like, "They're so bad at what they did." There's always two sides to every story.

• 50:05Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, right. And so the value of therapy is that we offer wise compassion. We hold up a mirror to you and help you to see yourself in a way that maybe you haven't been willing or able to do. And that's where the other version of the story comes in.

• 50:19Lewis Howes?

  So how do we have wise compassion for our friends? When they're like, "She cheated on me. He left me. They had an affair." Uh, whatever.

• 50:28Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 50:28Lewis Howes?

  How do we change our story and also show compassion that we're there for our friend? Not making, when they're in a vulnerable place, not making the other person right or wrong.

• 50:38Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 50:39Lewis Howes?

  But being there for them, and also kind of giving them some tough love, I guess?

• 50:43Lori Gottlieb?

  I wouldn't call it tough love. I would just call it...

• 50:45Lewis Howes?

  Reality?

• 50:46Lori Gottlieb?

  Love.

• 50:47Lewis Howes?

  Love.

• 50:48Lori Gottlieb?

  It's love. It's much more loving to be truthful in a compassionate way. So I sometimes call them compassionate truth bombs.

• 50:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 50:56Lori Gottlieb?

  Because we need to hear them. But how do we do it? It has to do with timing and dosage. So the timing is when they're really raw, when something just happened. You know, now's not the time to say, "You know, this has happened with your last three boyfriends."

• 51:08Lewis Howes?

  Right. Maybe you're the problem here, right?

• 51:11Lori Gottlieb?

  Have you noticed that going through people's phones is not working well for you? You know, we are not going to say that maybe in that moment. So that's the timing. And then the dosage is how much are you going to say in a particular moment and in a particular conversation? It doesn't all have to happen in one conversation. So I think that that has to do with being a good listener. And a lot of us don't know how to listen. And I think it's really helpful. I see a lot of couples in my practice, too. And if you can say to the person when they come to you with something, "How can I be helpful in this conversation right now? I know you're really hurting. Do you want to just vent? Do you want a hug? Do you want me to help problem solve with you? Do you want my honest opinion? Or do you want me to hold off and we can have that conversation another time?"

• 51:53Lori Gottlieb?

  Let them tell you what they want so you can give them something that is helpful to them in that moment. And then in another conversation, you might be able to offer them something more.

• 52:02Lewis Howes?

  When they're not completely raw or broken.

• 52:04Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 52:05Lewis Howes?

  Hurt.

• 52:05Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 52:06Lewis Howes?

  So what is that specific question when anyone's coming to you with a challenge or a complaint or hurt? What's the question you should ask them?

• 52:14Lori Gottlieb?

  "How can I be helpful to you right now? I know you're really hurting."

• 52:18Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. What does that do for the person who's hurting when they hear that?

• 52:21Lori Gottlieb?

  It helps them to reflect on, "Oh, wait, what do I need?" Right? Am I just going to download all of this stuff and then I'm not going to feel any different at the end? Or is there something else that I want right now? And maybe downloading it will make them feel different, just make them feel seen and understood and heard, which is important. Or maybe they want something else, but let them tell you. And I think the other thing is these three words that are really helpful when they're talking to you are "tell me more." So instead of saying, you know, when they say like, "Oh, here's what's going on," and we say, "Oh, well," we try to cheer them up. Like, you know, "Here's what you can do. We try to fix it. We try to cheer them up. We try to make it seem like it's not so bad, whatever we do." Instead, just say, "Tell me more."

• 53:06Lori Gottlieb?

  We do this with our kids. I can say as a parent, we do this all the time, right? So your kid comes to you and says, "You know, I'm really sad about this or I'm really worried about this." We say, "Oh, don't worry. No, it's not a problem." We say, "Oh, don't be sad, right? Go have ice cream."

• 53:20Lewis Howes?

  Sweep it in the rug.

• 53:21Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, exactly. But the thing is that then you get the message as a kid that like, "Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to feel this." And really what it is, is we get uncomfortable as parents with our kids' feelings.

• 53:34Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 53:35Lori Gottlieb?

  Because we can't, we are uncomfortable with feelings. We grew up in a way. Where feelings were messy, feelings were uncomfortable, feelings were something that, you know, was, they were gonna be trouble.

• 53:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:47Lori Gottlieb?

  As opposed to feelings.

• 53:48Lewis Howes?

  Stop crying, stop crying.

• 53:49Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes, as opposed to just, you know, let's, feelings are actually a great thing. People say, oh, there are these negative feelings, like sadness, anxiety, anger, whatever, even envy. I always say, feelings are like a compass. They tell us what direction to go in. So with envy, for example, I say, follow your envy. It tells you what you want. If you are feeling envy, that's great, because it says, what do I desire? It puts you in touch with your desire. What is it that I desire? And what steps can I take to get something like that in my own life? If you're feeling sad, if you're feeling anxious, what is not working right now that you can look at? If you stuff down that feeling, if you pretend it's not there, it just gets bigger. And here's what happens. It doesn't go away.

• 54:29Lori Gottlieb?

  It comes out in too much food, alcohol, drugs, insomnia, a short-temperedness, inability to function, distractibility, that mindless scrolling we all do through the internet. A colleague of mine said that the internet was like the most effective short-term, non-prescription painkiller out there.

• 54:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 54:52Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? And so what happens is your feelings are still there, but you're not dealing with them.

• 54:56Lewis Howes?

  What happens when we never deal with our emotions or feelings?

• 55:00Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, you, first of all, get sick.

• 55:03Lewis Howes?

  Get sick, emotions are sick mentally.

• 55:05Lori Gottlieb?

  Emotionally sick, everything, everything, right? So we have, just like we have a physical immune system, we have a psychological immune system. And we have to take care of our psychological immune system. So it's just like, you know, what do you do to keep healthy with your body? Like, you're gonna eat right, you're gonna exercise, you know, you're gonna do all the things that you wanna do to take care of yourself, you're gonna get enough sleep. Those things also help your psychological immune system. They're not totally separate. The mind-body connection is profound. But at the same time, you know, are you going to be around people who don't nourish you? That's, that's going to hurt your psychological immune system. That's gonna make you sick. Are you gonna stuff down your feelings? That's going to make you sick. And so, how do we take care of ourselves?

• 55:48Lori Gottlieb?

  And part of it is, instead of trying to numb out your feelings, because numbness isn't the absence of feelings. Numbness is a state of being overwhelmed by too many feelings.

• 55:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 55:59Lori Gottlieb?

  And then, not only do you not experience the feelings that you don't want to experience, but you don't experience the other feelings. You mute one feeling, you mute the others. You mute the pain, you mute the joy. So you're living in this state where you don't actually get to feel the range of feelings that make us human.

• 56:16Lewis Howes?

  What is that state called?

• 56:18Lori Gottlieb?

  I was gonna say, I was gonna say dead. I mean, I feel like you can be alive, but not living. And that's what happens to people, is that they're alive, they're going through the motions, they wake up every day, but they're not really living their lives.

• 56:32Lewis Howes?

  What's an assessment we could take for ourselves, if someone's listening or watching, to ask themselves how alive or how dead they are? And if the people in their life closest are actually good for them, or are hurting their psychological states?

• 56:47Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 56:47Lewis Howes?

  Is there a questionnaire we could take, like, just off the cuff? Is there an assessment? Is there a few things we could ask ourselves?

• 56:53Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that it has to do with a sense of vitality, right? Which, of course, like vitality, the word, like, life is right in there. When you wake up in the morning, are you excited about what you're doing? Is there meaning in what you're doing? Do you feel connected to how you're spending your days? Because at the end of your life, are you gonna look back and say, "What did I do that was meaningful?" You know, and maybe you should talk to someone. In my book, there's a woman that I treat, she's this young woman who goes on her honeymoon, she's newly married, she comes back, and she has cancer. And she says to me at one point, she says, "Why do we need a terminal diagnosis?"

• 57:30Lewis Howes?

  To have a wake-up call.

• 57:31Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. Why do we need a terminal diagnosis to live our lives with intention? Why do we need, why do we need that to really pay attention? And I think that if we can keep the awareness of death, on, sitting on one shoulder, and I don't mean in a morbid way or in a creepy way, it's not depressing, it's actually, again, going back to vitality, it helps us feel alive, because life has 100% mortality rate, and that's not for other people. We like to believe that, right? And so, the thing is that if we know that we have a limited time here, I think we would pay more attention to what we're actually doing every day.

• 58:05Lewis Howes?

  Why is it so hard for people to pay attention?

• 58:08Lori Gottlieb?

  Fear.

• 58:09Lewis Howes?

  But they're like, they feel like they're stuck sometimes for years.

• 58:12Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 58:13Lewis Howes?

  It's like, I stay stuck in a relationship that's, I know it's not right for me for years. I stay in a depressed state for years. I, you know, I stay in a job that I hate for years. It's all based on fear.

• 58:24Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, I think it is fear. You know, I think it's fear of uncertainty. This is gonna sound strange, but change is really hard because we cling to something that's familiar to us. So even though we may know, oh, this would help me, this would be a good change for me, we don't do it because it's unfamiliar. And so if you grew up with a lot of chaos, if you grew up feeling sad all the time or anxious all the time, that feels like home to you, even if it's unpleasant or even miserable.

• 58:54Lewis Howes?

  She'll keep finding chaotic environments to stand.

• 58:57Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, you keep recreating it. Yeah, and so, and so, you know, it was funny, because my own therapist gave me this great analogy. He said to me, he said, "You remind me of this cartoon, and it's of a prisoner shaking the bars, desperately trying to get out, but on the right and the left, it's open, right? No bars." So basically, the prisoner is not in jail. And that's what so many of us are like. We feel like we're trapped. We're not in jail. We can change. We can just walk around the bars. But why don't we? Because with freedom, the freedom to walk around the bars, comes responsibility. And if we're responsible for our own lives, that scares us. We feel like, oh, I don't know if I can do that. I don't know if I'm competent enough to do that. Or now, I'm to blame if things don't go right. I can't blame it on everything else.

• 59:41Lewis Howes?

  Is this one of the reasons why inmates, after a long time being in prison, who get out, go back into prison? Because they feel like they need to be back in that environment? Are there other reasons?

• 59:50Lori Gottlieb?

  I think there are other reasons. I think we don't give people the support when they come out. You know, the mental health issues that they needed to be treated for were never, you know, they never got that support. And then they come out, and they're back in the same situation where they don't have that community support.

• 1:00:08Lewis Howes?

  Why is it so hard for us to take responsibility for our own happiness?

• 1:00:12Lori Gottlieb?

  I think that if you grew up in a household where you were seen and heard and understood, those are the people who do take responsibility for their own happiness. I think for people who felt like they were ripped off in their childhoods, there's a part of them that's still in a fight. There's a part of them that still wants that redo. And so it's kind of like, they're not aware of this, but what they're saying is basically, "I will not change, Mom and Dad, until you give me the things that I did not get in childhood."

• 1:00:42Lewis Howes?

  So they'll go find a partner that... Emulates their environment from mom and dad and try to change them so they

• 1:00:49Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, right, this is the irony of relationship, right? For those people who have not sort of worked through it. This is so common. And I think all of us have this piece in us, right? Because nobody had a perfect childhood. So what happens is people say, okay, when I'm an adult, I'm going to pick a partner who really makes me feel nourished, who really gives me all those things that I did not get growing up. But what they don't realize is unconsciously, they have this radar for the people who are who look very different from their parents on the surface. But then, once they get into that relationship, it's kind of like, uh-oh, this feels familiar. Right? And so what they did was their unconscious said, when they were picking their partner, hey, you look familiar, come closer.

• 1:01:32Lori Gottlieb?

  Even though unconsciously, they thought, oh, you're totally different from my parents. I'm gonna, this is gonna work out great. But no, they have radar for that if they haven't worked out the stuff that's sort of their unfinished business. There's this saying, we marry our unfinished business. We actually do marry our unfinished business. So that is why it is so important as an adult to take responsibility and say, you know what? I'm going to have to grieve this loss of what I didn't get. And I'm going to have to work through this and assess where I am as an adult so that I pick people and surround myself with people who are healthy for me.

• 1:02:05Lewis Howes?

  What if you've chosen someone that you love deeply, but it's unconsciously your unfinished business? Is that the wrong person for you, once you realize, oh, they're never gonna change? Or is that a point for us to reflect back and say, actually, I need to heal the past, accept this person for who they are, and be willing to flow within this relationship?

• 1:02:27Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, what happens is, so you married your unfinished business, but so did they. And so if you can both recognize that, if you realize, hey, wait, we have a lot of conflict in our relationship, or we're really avoidant in our relationship, or we don't feel connected in the way we want to feel connected, that's a great opportunity for both of you to work out your unfinished business.

• 1:02:46Lewis Howes?

  To heal together.

• 1:02:47Lori Gottlieb?

  To heal together, right.

• 1:02:48Lewis Howes?

  And so that relationship could thrive.

• 1:02:51Lori Gottlieb?

  If you both are willing to look in the mirror at yourselves and do the work. Yes, that could be a really beautiful relationship. And it can be very healing for both of you, in fact.

• 1:03:02Lewis Howes?

  It could potentially be the strongest bond ever if you both were able to go through that.

• 1:03:06Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:06Lewis Howes?

  But if you're unwilling to go through that, then what? You're gonna be in pain.

• 1:03:10Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. Well, both people have to be willing. I mean, that's the thing. So it's like you may wake up one day and say, oh, wait a minute. I have all this unfinished business. And then your partner says, yeah, it's all you. You're the problem in the relationship. You know, it's kind of like in couples therapy so often I'll see something like someone will say like, you never listen to me. And I will say, how well do you listen to them?

• 1:03:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:03:29Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? It's always like.

• 1:03:30Lewis Howes?

  If you're just yelling at someone all day, are they gonna wanna listen to you?

• 1:03:33Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, right. So, you know, there's this dance that we do in relationship. And what happens is people are doing these dance steps. And people become very, they become very ingrained. It's like, oh, here we go. You can, you can script out people's arguments. You know exactly what they're gonna look like.

• 1:03:47Lewis Howes?

  It starts with one thing and then it goes back into many different things. You're like, oh.

• 1:03:50Lori Gottlieb?

  And you know exactly how it's gonna go and who's gonna feel what? And who's gonna accuse the other person of what? And that's the dance. And so if one person changes their dance steps, the other person either is going to fall flat on the dance floor or they're gonna have to change their steps too if they wanna keep dancing.

• 1:04:07Lewis Howes?

  Next, we talk with Pastor Michael Todd, who shares how to build a strong foundation in the beginning of a relationship and how to do the work to be a better partner.

• 1:04:19Lewis Howes?

  How does someone learn to believe in their worthiness?

• 1:04:21Michael Todd?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:21Lewis Howes?

  Period. Whether there's success or not success. Because sometimes people achieve everything and still don't believe in their worthiness.

• 1:04:26Michael Todd?

  And still don't believe in their worthiness.

• 1:04:28Lewis Howes?

  So how do we get to that place?

• 1:04:29Michael Todd?

  So for me, this is an answer that goes back to what I really believe. And I'm a pastor by nature. I work in all types of different fields. But there was a place in my life that I didn't feel worthy of anything. And I believe that there is a higher power, a divine creator, God, Jesus, for me is what I believe with my whole heart, that transformed my life. And what ended up happening in this process for me was I was a bad person. Like, how I became a pastor, this is like the whole nine. Addicted to all kinds of different things, all that other stuff. And at my lowest moment, I was reading the Bible. And for the first time in a long time, I felt loved. I felt worthy.

• 1:05:12Michael Todd?

  I felt like, you know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. Whosoever believes in him could not perish but have everlasting life. And like, hold on, like, all of this happened on a maybe like, whoa, like, hold on. Somebody while I was yet a sinner doing everything that was filthy and jagged and raggedy and horrible. Like, you loved me and I started reading these scriptures and, and something connected in my heart. I can't explain it. People like, that's not real. That's a, nobody can take this experience away from me. Cause I know who I was and I know how jacked up I was and I know how backwards my thinking was. And I know how perverted I was and I know how manipulated I was.

• 1:05:53Michael Todd?

  The person I am today is only because I found my worthiness in a creator, not from a creation. A car is a creation, but, but, but there's a creator. Our phones are a creation. That iPad's a creation. But the creator, people, creations, but from the creator. That's where you only can find identity. And so I went back and I just went on this journey of discovering my faith and discovering God and discovering. And when I came out of that with, bro, nobody could ever take anything away from me. I got not happiness, I got joy. I didn't get relief. I got peace.

• 1:06:35Michael Todd?

  I didn't get a sexual satisfying experience. I got love. And from that place, I begin to take steps of progression on my purpose. I started forgiving people. Do you know what type of weight it is lifted off of your life when you walk forgiving people? It's amazing. Bro, it is like. Holding your grudge is heavy, man. It, it is devastating, but it gave me the ability and the power to begin to forgive people that I was holding grudges. Get to say sorry, to own up to stuff. And it's crazy how when you become a better person, make, moving and maneuvering in the image of, of Christ, in my opinion.

• 1:07:18Michael Todd?

  And in my belief and in my experience, it changes everything around you. I'm able to be a light anywhere I go. Like, people don't have to believe how I believe or anything. I come in, I'm like, man, I like talking to you. I was like, bro, you would have hated talking to me seven years ago. But let me tell you what happened to me. And that's where I say, like, you cannot find identity in something that didn't create you. And, and, and if my iPhone breaks, I don't go to Honda to figure out how to get it fixed. Not because Hondas didn't make something, it's because they didn't, they didn't make that. I would go to Apple. The same thing with me and you, I really do believe when you need to find the origination, even if you have bad parents, had a traumatic past, you did things that were horrible.

• 1:08:02Michael Todd?

  Like, when you go back and you connect to your faith, and you see what God says about you, how you're fearfully and wonderfully made, you're the head and not the tail, you're beautifully and wonderfully made, there's a purpose before you were even formed in your mother's womb, God knew you, and that he has a plan and a purpose for you. When you start taking off the lies and believing the truth, I'm telling you, from that place, it starts to transform and change everything. And the only reason I'm sitting here talking to you is because I went through that transformation process. And now I'm able to live in joy, hope, peace, and um, I just hope that everybody experiences that at some place in their life, bro.

• 1:08:36Lewis Howes?

  I love that, man. And you, you said you can't heal what you won't reveal. Uh, about eight years ago, I started to share my shame, the things that I was afraid to reveal. And I wasn't able to heal. I realized that statement that you said right there is so powerful for me because for twenty-five years, I was holding on to pain, shame, resentment, anger, frustration. Uh, and I've talked about this many times publicly about dealing with sexual abuse as a child, holding on to that for so long. It wasn't until I started to share the shame, where I was able to start the healing process. And I think a lot of people hide, uh, their shame. And it's hard to heal if you're hiding, right? It's really hard to heal. So how does someone get to a place of?

• 1:09:19Lewis Howes?

  Sharing, opening up, revealing, so that they can heal when it is so dark, so painful, so traumatic from something in the past.

• 1:09:28Michael Todd?

  So this is where counseling comes in heavy, you know what I'm saying? Or good, in my opinion, godly community, like people who you can tell that won't trash you while you're peeling back this onion. Like, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:09:45Lewis Howes?

  While you're super vulnerable.

• 1:09:46Michael Todd?

  When you're super vulnerable. And I just, people make circles based on success a lot of times in networking, instead of making circles based on insulation. When you have a circle around you, you need an insulation. You need people you can be your 100% self with, and they protect you and cover you. Not cover up, but cover you and help lead you to the right place. And for me, I had that. I had a good, godly community, as well as we had counseling. And sometimes you've gotta be able to be put in positions that make you answer questions you don't wanna answer, and talk about things that nobody wants to. Like, when they start asking you, "What's one thing that happened to you when you were younger?"

• 1:10:31Michael Todd?

  And I encourage everybody to ask you this. What's one thing that happened to you when you were younger that negatively shaped who you are today?

• 1:10:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, a lot of things, for me.

• 1:10:42Michael Todd?

  But see, if you answer that question honestly, you start opening up things that probably there needs to be some more conversations about.

• 1:10:51Lewis Howes?

  What happens if we don't open up and talk about those things?

• 1:10:54Michael Todd?

  It's the same thing that happens when you put food that was good at one point, and you leave it by your bed for three months. It festers, it spoils, it rots.

• 1:11:09Lewis Howes?

  There's some maggots in there.

• 1:11:10Michael Todd?

  And then it attracts, hold on, watch, it attracts things that will eat off of it. This is what some of our relationships look like. And then it becomes the aroma.

• 1:11:23Michael Todd?

  Of your living.

• 1:11:25Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, becomes your environment.

• 1:11:26Michael Todd?

  It becomes your environment. It doesn't matter how many millions you spent on the bedroom. If something's rotting in the corner. It doesn't matter how many Gucci Prada. It doesn't matter how many Maserati. It doesn't matter how many times you 10x did. It doesn't matter if your soul is rotting. If your love is spoiled. If your emotions have eroded. And that's what I tell people. A lot of times we dress up something that is completely contaminated. And I just didn't want to live like that. I was affecting. People could smell.

• 1:12:10Lewis Howes?

  The aroma.

• 1:12:11Michael Todd?

  The aroma of my life. Have you ever met somebody like something?

• 1:12:18Michael Todd?

  That's what a lot of us look like spiritually, emotionally. And in our relationships is because we haven't dealt with the things and it's been there since you were six, seven, fifteen, twenty-two.

• 1:12:28Lewis Howes?

  They don't teach us how to deal with these things.

• 1:12:30Michael Todd?

  No, no. And that's why for me, especially in my context, especially in church and business and all that, I'm like, yo. We gotta talk about relationships. We gotta talk about counseling. We gotta talk about inner healing. We gotta talk about our faith. We gotta talk about this because. I've seen too many people get to what they thought was the mountaintop. And it feel emptier than a different season in their life.

• 1:12:58Lewis Howes?

  I want to bring it back to jealousy for a second.

• 1:13:00Michael Todd?

  Let's go.

• 1:13:03Lewis Howes?

  Why are we jealous human beings? And is there a place in which we can be completely not jealous of our partner or someone else?

• 1:13:13Michael Todd?

  Yeah, so jealousy is our nature. We are all born with a nature that you do not. I have kids. I don't have to teach them how to be bad. Like, all of my kids learn no, mine. I never taught any of my kids those words. I have to teach them share. I have to teach them give. To help. Yeah. We're all born with what I call a, a lower nature, a sin nature that's in us. And jealousy is the primary nature that is formed there. All the way back to Cain and Abel. It, it, it, you, the first two brothers kill each other over jealousy. Like, it's our nature.

• 1:13:53Michael Todd?

  And so what you have to do is fight that nature with the thing that is counter that nature. So, um, when you think jealousy, um, when you think competition, when you think selfishness, you have to do the opposite of those things. You have to celebrate others. You have to be generous. You have to give. The only way to put out, um, the fire is give the opposite thing. And so I found in my life that, again, you gotta be, we can't act like this stuff is not real because we'll never deal with it. A lot of people won't even admit they're jealous of something. Jealous that the friend got a new house, or everybody's getting married and they're not. Or jealous that, that, that doesn't even happen. So those people, they just tuned us out right now. Sure, sure.

• 1:14:38Michael Todd?

  But for anybody that would actually admit, hey, there's areas in my life that I, I, I wish I had what they had. I'm coveting those things. Um, when you start to give what you wish you had, somehow those things begin to come into your life in a different way, or you don't desire them anymore. And that's how I have found for me that I give what I desire to have. It's the, the principle of sowing the ripen. Okay, so when we, when we were in a season, I'll talk about it business-wise. When I was in a season of not making a lot of money and, um, was trying to really figure out like, how am I gonna like, I'm, I wanna marry this girl, I wanna do this. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:15:22Michael Todd?

  I need savings, I need investments, all that other stuff. And I heard so strongly in my, in my time of devotion, hey, you need to give something to somebody who's where you wanna be. They already got it. That doesn't ma- that doesn't make sense. And it was almost like, instead of looking at what they had and trying to be like, I wish I had that. Okay, become a part of it. Sow into it. Give what you desire um to somebody else and help their journey. And it's the the principle of sowing and reaping. You you you're always going to reap whatever you sow. So you might as well sow good things. Cause everything you give out is coming back.

• 1:16:04Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:16:05Michael Todd?

  With friends. Like and and

• 1:16:07Lewis Howes?

  And hopefully it's good friends.

• 1:16:08Michael Todd?

  If you sow good seed.

• 1:16:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:16:10Michael Todd?

  But if you didn't, it's coming back.

• 1:16:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Michael Todd?

  With friends. And that was a game changing moment and I've become generous. Um generosity kills jealousy.

• 1:16:20Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:21Michael Todd?

  Like It it like when you start helping people, giving to people, networking with people. And then the other thing that's very practical with jealousy, if you don't see it, you won't be jealous of it. So many people are jealous because of overexposure. There are certain things I'm not supposed to know about somebody else's life, but because of the culture we live in today, I'm jealous of things that I didn't even know existed.

• 1:16:46Lewis Howes?

  It used to be in the, I guess, fifties and sixties, the Joneses, where it's like the neighbor.

• 1:16:50Michael Todd?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:50Lewis Howes?

  You saw the neighbor's house and car. You didn't go see everyone's house and car on social media.

• 1:16:55Michael Todd?

  And that's where, again, I think we come back to the idea of margin.

• 1:16:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:58Michael Todd?

  Like, there are days of every week that I cut off my social media. Like, there are there are time periods when I go on that sabbatical, I'm off of social media the whole month. A month.

• 1:17:09Lewis Howes?

  Are people posting for you though or content?

• 1:17:10Michael Todd?

  I I tell them to go black.

• 1:17:12Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:17:13Michael Todd?

  Now, think about this, when I'm talking to book publishers and people I've made contracts with and everything like that and telling them, hey, just be- just before we sign this, I want you to know that um once a year, I go black. I won't be posting, I won't be promoting, I won't be doing anything. And I'm telling you, they freak out. And I say, but I promise you, when I do this, it's going to make me more fruitful in everything else I do. And now, any partner that's been with me, they're like, oh, we understand now. They're still scared to do it.

• 1:17:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:43Michael Todd?

  But but and again, I went off the nu- I I was, by the grace of God, I was um on the number one New York Times bestseller for three weeks. And we were on the top ten New York Times bestseller list for fifteen weeks in a row.

• 1:17:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:17:55Michael Todd?

  I went off a New York Times bestseller list because I went on sabbatical. So I knew I was going to take myself off of the New York Times Bestsellers list. Cause I was gonna stop promoting my book. And I did it.

• 1:18:12Michael Todd?

  Now, for some people, that would seem stupid. For me, that was success. I was unattached. My work- To the results, yeah. Was not based on being on New York Times seller, bestseller for thirty weeks. Never went back on it yet. Haven't got back. It's not like I'm trying to, no. The fact, I'm just grateful the fact that we did it once. It happened, but I'm still worth it. I'm still a good guy. I'm still loved. I'm still, no matter if I'm, somebody in the book publishing world may think I'm nothing, but I know who I am. And those are the type of decisions that are counter-cultural, that people don't understand.

• 1:18:54Michael Todd?

  But that's why I have my peace. That's why I'm full of joy. That's why when I talk to you, I don't gotta put on any type of allure and act like I'm bigger than I am. Cause I'm acting, when all of this is over, I'm gonna be good. Like, I'm actually go back to the hotel with my daughters, take them to the pool. I'm actually gonna enjoy and be fulfilled in what I believe God has called me to do. And so, um, it, it really is one of those things that jealousy many times comes from being overexposed. So if you would, if you would, uh, limit your exposure, it would help you. Think about it. When horses run in the Preakness and in, uh, the Kentucky Derby, there's a very inexpensive piece of equipment that is, is, is very- Blinders, it's like a focus.

• 1:19:37Michael Todd?

  Very, um, um, intentional- Effective, yeah, yeah. And effective to the horses winning. Blinders. And the reason is because if they could see the other horses, they would go into their lanes and be disqualified. My goodness. Think about how many of us are distracted and getting ultimately disqualified. Because we're jealous of somebody else's lane when we already have our own to run. We gotta run our own race. Come on, bro. We gotta run our own race, man. Come on, bro. And, and, and for some reason, it's not sexy enough to have one lane. You gotta have ten lanes.

• 1:20:12Lewis Howes?

  You want every lane.

• 1:20:13Michael Todd?

  You want the track.

• 1:20:15Lewis Howes?

  Want the world.

• 1:20:15Michael Todd?

  You want, and I'm just saying like, maybe, just maybe, I'm not saying, I know everything, but maybe the end result of running in several lanes is not the fulfillment and the success that we think it is.

• 1:20:31Lewis Howes?

  How do you create a financial abundant mindset as a pastor of a church where it's probably, I'm assuming taboo to be talking money or be thinking, let's build wealth and abundance as a pastor as a church. You guys have publicly announced acquiring this forty million dollar arena center in Tulsa, which is amazing. And creating communities and opportunities for people there. How did you, one, go from not acquiring a lot of wealth and an abundance mindset? Maybe you had it before. How did you transition that, knowing that I am a pastor where people are gonna judge me based on how much money we bring in, based on these things? How do you manage that stigma maybe?

• 1:21:16Lewis Howes?

  And also be at peace with creating financial abundance?

• 1:21:19Michael Todd?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:20Lewis Howes?

  And how can we learn to create financial abundance in a spiritual way?

• 1:21:24Michael Todd?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love that question. That's a good question, bro. I, I think the first thing that you have to realize is I'm aware of the landscape of most pastors in the world when it comes to finances, where there's been a lot of abuse, there's been a lot of misuse.

• 1:21:38Lewis Howes?

  Mistrust.

• 1:21:39Michael Todd?

  Mistrust. And so the first thing that I did when I came in as a pastor is I decided, it goes back to what I've talked about in relationship. That I was gonna be completely transparent.

• 1:21:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Michael Todd?

  So like, every year, we tell the church, every dollar, every cent that came in, we tell them that every dollar that comes in, ten plus percent is going out in missions. We let people know what we're doing, how it's going to happen. And you can't make anybody give to a nonprofit. You cannot make anybody, I mean, they have to do that on their own. We don't make a big deal about any of those things. We decided that finances would be the fruit and not the focus. And I think that's something that everybody needs to adapt. A lot of times, money and finances is the focus. But I believe that if you make the focus people, the focus reaching purpose, the focus helping others, then finances is the fruit, not the focus. Yes.

• 1:22:32Michael Todd?

  And for us, that has been our entire mission. When I took over our church, we started in a converted grocery store in the hood of Tulsa. So like, I didn't come from this big machine of people understanding. There was less than 300 people that came to my church and most of them was sitting there like, he not gonna make it. Like, you know what I'm saying? Let's be honest. And I just told people that this is going to be a generous church. And I remember it. I remember the day everything changed for our church. I was reading a book by another pastor named Robert Morris called The Blessed Life. And he was talking about how many churches and nonprofits talk about give to get, give to get.

• 1:23:14Michael Todd?

  And really, the principle of the Bible and God is give to give, not to get. Like, we're giving just as an extension of love, not because... Not expecting something in return. No, like, for God's love of the world that he gave, like, without an expectation of return. And I said, that's what we're gonna do. I went to our platform, less than 300 people in our church. And I said, hey, guys, today, I just really feel that we're supposed to raise money and none of it's supposed to help us, it's supposed to go out and help other people. And you should have seen the faces of those people. They were like, huh? Like, what do you mean? Like, how are we gonna do this? And I was like, I just, I want us to be a generous community that blesses people in need,

• 1:23:55Michael Todd?

  blesses other churches, blesses nonprofits and people who are helping with sex trafficking. Like, let's just do it. And we raised 833, 8,300 and something dollars. That day. That day. And we gave it all away. And that was the seed that went in the ground, that I believe transformed our mindset around the thought that it is more blessing to give than it is to receive. And from that point on, keeping transparency, teaching, being honest, and then being prepared. See, this is the big thing people don't understand, is preparation. Is really the the avenue that you're ready for the big things that are coming to come in your life.

• 1:24:37Michael Todd?

  When this arena came open, it was because we had years of preparation, being generous, giving to people, teaching and then saving and then being ready. And then this fifty million dollar arena came available. We were able to get it for like ten point five million dollars and pay it off in six months.

• 1:24:55Lewis Howes?

  Crazy.

• 1:24:56Michael Todd?

  That only have, it is crazy. It's crazy faith. It's crazy, crazy. It doesn't make sense at all. The only reason it happened though is because we had practical preparation with principles of generosity.

• 1:25:08Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:25:08Michael Todd?

  And I think those are two things that everybody can take.

• 1:25:13Lewis Howes?

  And finally, we connect with my dear friend, relationship expert Matthew Hussey, who shares what factors we should focus on in our life that will make you a more desirable partner.

• 1:25:25Lewis Howes?

  For all the people at your retreats or the women who are watching or listening at home that just want to find their match, their partner, what's the first step they can take to start getting out of the weeds of like failure after failure and start seeing some progress to greater potential matches or?

• 1:25:44Matthew Hussey?

  Couple of things. I mean firstly, there's a guy called John Kay who wrote a book called Obligity. And the whole idea of the book was, obliquity is when you reach goals through indirect means. So if you take building a business, you're far more like, if your, if your goal is to make money, instead of focusing on making money, focus on all the things that provide value to people.

• 1:26:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:11Matthew Hussey?

  Because the making money part will be the byproduct.

• 1:26:13Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:26:13Matthew Hussey?

  If you focus on, I need to get rich, I need to get rich, I need to get rich, you're probably not going to do the things that are going to get you rich.

• 1:26:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:26:21Matthew Hussey?

  Because what makes you financially wealthy, the relationships you take time to build, that often for a long time, you don't ask for anything, you don't even care to, you're just building, you, you know, the products that you create for no reason, then you just think that they're great or that you think they have value or whatever the service that you provide people, it's just, it's not, what's the quickest way for me to make money? Most people like that don't get rich.

• 1:26:47Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:26:49Matthew Hussey?

  In a relationship, there's all these things that build a relationship. That really have nothing to, that don't feel like they have anything to do with a relationship. Like, who would say, knowing what you would do with the next ten hours of your life, if it was free, is actually gonna be a huge determinant of the health of your relationship? It's like one's over here and one's over here. Right. Shouldn't we be talking about how to have better sex? Yeah. Shouldn't we be talking about how to communicate well with my partner? No, we're talking about you being an independently attractive, purpose-driven, independent person who is attractive just to watch from afar because of the life you lead. That's gonna lead to a much better relationship. By the way, even that will lead to better sex. Yeah.

• 1:27:34Matthew Hussey?

  Cause your partner looks at you and is like, this person's... More attractive. This is a person.

• 1:27:39Matthew Hussey?

  This isn't just an extension of me. Yeah. This is a person. So it's the indirect things that contribute. And so let's now take that to the single place. I'm, I'm single. What's, what do I do next?

• 1:27:55Matthew Hussey?

  Understand and study, and this is a big part of what I do in my work. So I'd encourage people to come check that out. Study the things that contribute to getting you a relationship. That often have nothing to do with getting a relationship. The things you do with your spare time. Do I, you know, do I do? If I wanna learn yoga, do I do it on my own at home with a YouTube video? Learning yoga, by the way, on its own, could be a good thing. Just cause it makes you more interesting, you have more to talk about, you feel confident in yourself, all of that. But, okay, now let me do a more sociable version of that. Let me go and do a class where I might actually have the chance of meeting other people. Maybe they're not men, maybe they're other single women, but other single women are useful too. Another indirect variable.

• 1:28:40Matthew Hussey?

  Cause you have more single friends or more fun friends, more charismatic friends, friends who come knocking at your door going, hey, we're going out. Get out of your goddamn pajamas, we're going out, right? That person is gonna be great for your love life. Makes you more desirable, have more value. And makes you leave the house. Yeah. Instead of staying in every weekend, makes you leave and go to places where people are. You know, the books you read, who would say the books you read have anything to do with your relationship? But they do on a date when you have to talk about. Absolutely. Right, so there's all these factors. Now, the reason I'm saying that, because of course there are direct factors, but my programs in my my company, which by the way, people could go to howtogettheguide.com to go and find all of these.

• 1:29:24Matthew Hussey?

  But the programs I have there are about very direct things like how to flirt. Strategies. How to meet someone, how to do this, how to do that, but that's one piece of it, right? It's, I encourage people to do all those indirect things and then someone can't say, "I'm just sick of going out, I'm, I'm, I'm give, I give up." On what?

• 1:29:46Matthew Hussey?

  On what? Yeah. Like someone said that to me in a seminar, I'd say, "I just feel like giving up." Tell me what. On yourself, on life? What are you giving up on? I wanna hear this. Tell me, what are you giving up on? Well, I, uh.

• 1:30:01Matthew Hussey?

  Meeting people? Meeting people, would you not meet people? If you, if someone said you could never find the love of your life, that's off the table, would you really stop meeting people? Your need for a human interaction would disappear? I don't think so. You'd stop flirting with people? That's part of your character. Flirt, being flirtatious is a part of who we are at times. Yeah. So why would we lose that, being sexual? Would you really lose that? You're gonna stop being sexual just because the end result isn't coming? I, I don't buy it. You'd stop doing hobbies, you'd stop getting out there. All the things that you have to get rid of to say, "I'm done with relationships" are things that would absolutely erode your life.

• 1:30:45Matthew Hussey?

  Even if you take the relationship out of the equation. Yeah. So I think people have to, I understand, I know there is a terrific level of like dating burnout right now. And if you're out there feeling that right now, I, I urge you to think about this differently. And to say, "I don't have to constantly have it in my mind, I'm trying to meet someone, I'm trying to meet someone, I'm trying to meet someone." That game gets boring. And now when you go on a date and it doesn't go anywhere, you're a failure. You're exhausted, yeah. "Oh god, I'm done."

• 1:31:15Matthew Hussey?

  See it as life. This isn't dating. It's life. It's meeting people. It's experiencing a great conversation. Having a fun moment of interaction or flirtation. Doing things you wanna do anyway. Doing hobbies you wanna do anyway. Cause they'll they enrich your experience of life. All of those things are really important. You don't have to call it dating. Just go live.

• 1:31:41Lewis Howes?

  It's kinda like the analogy you said about running a business. If you're focused on, I need the relationship. Whereas like, I need to make a certain amount of money.

• 1:31:48Matthew Hussey?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:49Lewis Howes?

  Is the is getting the relationship as opposed to. Why don't I add value to the world and I'll attract the customers that will pay me and I'll make some money?

• 1:31:57Matthew Hussey?

  Because I need to make money focuses on things that make the short term economics work.

• 1:32:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:03Matthew Hussey?

  And those things are generally not good for a business.

• 1:32:07Lewis Howes?

  That's it.

• 1:32:07Matthew Hussey?

  Right? Same in same in love.

• 1:32:10Lewis Howes?

  I wanna I wanna ask you a couple of final questions. This just came to me. I don't think I've ever asked anyone this, but since you're the love guy. I'm gonna go there.

• 1:32:21Lewis Howes?

  Typically, I would ask the three truths question, which is what are your three truths if it was the last day of your life? But I'm gonna ask you a different spin on this. Imagine it's the last day of your life and you've been in a committed, compatible, loving relationship with the woman of your dreams for the last thirty, forty, fifty, whatever years. And you've been a part of this journey and experience where you've built this incredible castle. With all of its dents and wears and tears and love and magic and unicorns and everything. And it's your last day. And you've got a, lights are gonna go off. And you're not gonna be on this world anymore.

• 1:33:05Lewis Howes?

  And your partner has one more day to live. Hypothetical. You're 150 years old.

• 1:33:13Matthew Hussey?

  Your partner has one more day to live.

• 1:33:15Lewis Howes?

  Your partner has one more day to live. Let's screw that. Your partner has a few more years to live. She's gonna live a little longer than you. And you get to write three things, a love letter to your partner.

• 1:33:31Matthew Hussey?

  Right.

• 1:33:31Lewis Howes?

  About the three things you loved about her the most. That brought you the most joy, the most incredible life from this relationship that you built together.

• 1:33:45Lewis Howes?

  What would you say or write to her are the three things you loved the most about this woman?

• 1:33:52Lewis Howes?

  That she would remember and go on for a few more years afterwards.

• 1:33:55Matthew Hussey?

  But that would be specific to a relationship, right? To a specific person?

• 1:33:59Lewis Howes?

  To that relationship, yeah. To that person and the relationship. Imagine the relationship is everything you could ever dream of.

• 1:34:06Matthew Hussey?

  Got it.

• 1:34:06Lewis Howes?

  You created the relationship of your dreams. It's the golden standard for the world. To look at a relationship and say, wow, they lived it. They did it. They loved. They went through it. They were vulnerable. It wasn't perfect, but man, this couple is the golden standard.

• 1:34:27Matthew Hussey?

  Man, okay.

• 1:34:28Lewis Howes?

  What would you say are the three things? So I want you to go there because I believe you're gonna create that. And the relationship that you want to create.

• 1:34:36Lewis Howes?

  What were the three things you would write a love letter to your, your wife on your last day? About the three things you appreciated the most about the love you created together?

• 1:34:50Matthew Hussey?

  That.

• 1:34:56Matthew Hussey?

  Maybe one would be.

• 1:35:00Matthew Hussey?

  Your.

• 1:35:03Matthew Hussey?

  You made me feel safe enough to be the best I could possibly be. You know, you, your love made me feel so secure. Gave me such a platform to go and make an impact in the world on. That that, you know, and I don't get me wrong, I think we should have our internal security, but I felt so secure in the relationship. That this gave me, this relationship gave me the energy. To go out there and do amazing things with that energy. So I made a bigger impact in the world because of the energy that your love gave me.

• 1:35:48Lewis Howes?

  I'm getting chills already. This makes me emotional just thinking.

• 1:35:51Matthew Hussey?

  See if I have anywhere to go from there.

• 1:35:55Lewis Howes?

  So, safety, security.

• 1:35:59Matthew Hussey?

  That you.

• 1:36:03Matthew Hussey?

  You made me feel.

• 1:36:07Matthew Hussey?

  Like I wasn't alone in the world. And I don't just mean because we had each other. You can feel very lonely in a relationship. Especially if you don't feel seen.

• 1:36:20Matthew Hussey?

  But you find someone who sees you. You know, who, who really. Gets you.

• 1:36:29Matthew Hussey?

  And all of a sudden, you don't feel so alone in the world because life is lonely. You can have tons of people around you, but there are certain, there's a certain existential loneliness that many people feel in life. That.

• 1:36:46Matthew Hussey?

  For moments or times evaporates when you feel a true. Connection with someone and you see each other. You go, wow, this is, that's, that to me is transcendent. So you, your ability to see me. Made me feel less alone in the world.

• 1:37:22Matthew Hussey?

  And I guess.

• 1:37:24Matthew Hussey?

  You. You. Were a role model for me.

• 1:37:29Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:37:31Matthew Hussey?

  That.

• 1:37:33Matthew Hussey?

  Through observing you. And seeing the way you live and seeing the way you approach things. That there were so many times where. I noticed you were better than me. And that. Taught me how to be better. It taught me how to. You, I grew. Because I. Saw the way you were.

• 1:37:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:37:58Matthew Hussey?

  And that. Showed me. No matter where I thought I was, being around you showed me. Uh. How wonderful people can be, and that made me wanna be more wonderful.

• 1:38:10Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:38:12Matthew Hussey?

  I guess those would be.

• 1:38:13Lewis Howes?

  That's a beautiful love letter. What's the letter you would write to yourself? You're two hundred years old. It's the last day still. And you write a letter to your. Thirty-two-year-old self. Thirty-two now?

• 1:38:28Matthew Hussey?

  Thirty-one, thirty-two in a couple of weeks.

• 1:38:31Lewis Howes?

  You write a letter to your thirty-two-year-old self and say. One piece of advice. Looking back at what you'd say to yourself on how to become the best partner. To create that magical. Relationship.

• 1:38:46Matthew Hussey?

  One thing I would say, looking back, looking at myself. Saying, here's a, here's a guide to being.

• 1:38:53Lewis Howes?

  Here's what you need to do to become that partner. With that, with that other person. Here's what you need to let go of. Here's what you need to step into. Here's where your ego needs to take a check.

• 1:39:07Matthew Hussey?

  I think, how many things do I get?

• 1:39:09Lewis Howes?

  Give yourself a few.

• 1:39:09Matthew Hussey?

  Let's do, let's do a couple. I, I think. Um. I always loved just the idea of you question everything. You know, don't.

• 1:39:19Matthew Hussey?

  That thing that you take for granted that you're right about, you know, question everything. Cause it's, I mean, it's just amazing to me, the things I, I look back on now and I no longer disagree. I no longer agree with what the twenty-three-year-old version of me thought, the twenty-five-year-old version of me thought. And I think, understanding that, at least, we're, we're not very good at thinking about all the ways we might be wrong today. But we're really good at knowing the ways we were wrong before, right? And it's more, that's, you know, if you think of a lot, a lot of self-improvement, people, right? Gurus, leaders, whatever, you know, people wanna call themselves.

• 1:40:01Matthew Hussey?

  They struggle, they're very good at telling stories of how they [__] up. Ah, five years ago or ten years ago. But now you're still doing.

• 1:40:07Matthew Hussey?

  You should have seen me then. But not many people are good at talking about today. Yeah. And I think that that's a kind of blind spot we, we, most of us have in life, people in general. And I think if we can apply that thing of, oh yeah, God, I was so wrong about that five years ago. I was so, I couldn't be more wrong about that. And I know that now. We should apply that to the next five years too. Yeah. You know, in the next ten years and say, there's a lot I'm gonna look back on five years from now and say, God, I did not know what I was talking about. That doesn't mean we should not trust ourselves on anything. You know, there's, I've heard it said, you know, strong opinions loosely held.

• 1:40:48Matthew Hussey?

  You know, it doesn't mean we shouldn't be passionate about what we think now, but it does mean we should leave room for questioning. Um, and to that end,

• 1:40:59Matthew Hussey?

  I think I would tell myself to, to be kinder to myself over the course of my life for things that I'd, mistakes I'd made within relationships. I have definitely, I have definitely been the person and even today have to wrestle with.

• 1:41:18Matthew Hussey?

  Making, doing something that I know, God, that wasn't the best reaction to that.

• 1:41:24Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:41:24Matthew Hussey?

  I wish I'd handled that differently. I wish I'd have said a different thing. I wish I'd have phrased that differently. I wish I didn't say that.

• 1:41:33Matthew Hussey?

  And then really, really beating myself up for it.

• 1:41:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:38Matthew Hussey?

  You know, not letting it go.

• 1:41:41Matthew Hussey?

  Even after you've finished the argument, even after you get to the other side of it.

• 1:41:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:45Matthew Hussey?

  Continuing to berate yourself for it. And the shame about that is that it lacks humanity. It makes us forget that we're human and that we don't get everything right. And the only way we're gonna get more right is by making certain mistakes and learning from them.

• 1:42:04Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 1:42:05Matthew Hussey?

  And it also stops us from being effective. Because that energy that we're putting into berating ourselves is actually stopping us from doing the very things that would move everything forward from that mistake. It's not, it doesn't make relationships better. Mistakes actually make relationships better very often.

• 1:42:26Lewis Howes?

  Because you learn, or you hopefully you'll learn.

• 1:42:28Matthew Hussey?

  You learn. Those things, they really can transform, mistakes can transform relationships. But not if you sit there consistently dwelling on them.

• 1:42:39Matthew Hussey?

  They make relationships better if you can improve from them and move on and be the thing you want to be now. So I think I would tell myself to be kinder to myself for mistakes. To not obsess over things I should have said or done differently.

• 1:42:57Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed this special episode about the keys to finding a great relationship and how to master relationships in your life. I know how challenging relationships can be and I hope this gave you a lot of wisdom, a lot of tools, a lot of inspiration to continue to guide you on your journey in this unbelievable, messy and amazing world at the same time of relationships. If you enjoyed this, please click the subscribe button right now on Apple Podcast or Spotify and stay up to date on the latest and greatest from the School of Greatness podcast, as well as leaving us a Review and rating over on Apple Podcasts and share this with a few friends. Text them, post it on social media and make sure to tag me, Lewis Howes as well. So we can stay up to date and connected over on social media. And I want to leave you with this quote from Maya Angelou, who said,

• 1:43:41Lewis Howes?

  "Love is that condition in the healing spirit so profound that it allows us to forgive."

• 1:43:49Lewis Howes?

  Lots going on in this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. And I want to remind you, if no one's told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.