Part One: Peter Attia and the Cult of Longevity

Dr. Peter Attia is not the worst doctor we've covered, but he may be one of the most influential. This week, Robert is joined by Dr. Kaveh Hoda to learn about the rise of a longevity medicine superstar who would influence the manosphere, the biohacker set, and the "healthspan" crowd. Covering what longevity medicine actually is and why concierge care is a problem for the country. Check out Kaveh's new podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/persian-of-interest/id6814679153?i=1000791027349 Sources: Attia, Peter. Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity. March 28, 2023. Johansson, Minna, et al. "Continuous Glucose Monitoring for Persons With and Without Diabetes." JAMA, August 3, 2026. Khullar, Dhruv. "How to Die in Good Health." The New Yorker, April 15, 2024. Mann, Brian. "McKinsey & Company to Pay $650 Million for Role in Opioid Crisis." NPR, December 13, 2024. Martin, Kristen. "The Problem With Peter Attia: The Longevity Guru Turned Up in the Epstein Files. Should We Have Taken His Health Advice So Seriously in the First Place?" Slate, February 26, 2026. Ruetenik, Daniel, and Arden, Farhi. "Dr. Peter Attia, Longevity Expert, Apologizes for 'Indefensible' Emails to Jeffrey Epstein." CBS News, February 2, 2026. Tyrangiel, Josh. "The Epstein Spectrum." The Atlantic, April 3, 2026. Walker, Graham. "A Skeptic's Review of Peter Attia's Outlive." LinkedIn, January 13, 2024. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/skeptics-review-peter-attias-outlive-graham-walker-md-z6rsc Blum, Dani "Peter Attia's Ties to Epstein Spark Backlash From Doctors." The New York Times, February 10, 2026 Kaufman, Maya and Gardner, Laura . "I Think She Will Be Loyal: Jeffrey Epstein's Role in Peter Attia's Rise." Politico, March 16, 2026. Pollack, Neal. "The Plight of Peter Attia." The Spectator, July 15, 2025. Greene, Jenna. Epstein files up in lawsuit, over stock options by longevity expert, Peter Attia. March 20, 2026 Podcasts: The Peter Attia Drive. Episode 168, August 2021. The Peter Attia Drive. Episode 172, August 2021. The Peter Attia Drive. Episode 190, January 10, 2022. The Peter Attia Drive. Episode 298, April 15, 2024. The Joe Rogan Experience. Episode 1735, 1961 Jocko Podcast. Episodes 55, 56, and 392. The Tim Ferriss Show. Episode 398, "Peter Attia, MD: Fasting, Metformin, Athletic Performance, and More," November 27, 2019. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Robert Evans?

  Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast that tells you everything you don't know about the very worst people in all of history. And this week, I'm one of the laziest people in all of history, because I'm getting a week off of researching and writing a script, thanks to my good friend, Dr. Cave Hoda, who has come in and

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Cave, Cave, Cave, Cave.

• 0:24Robert Evans?

  Written, wrote, written a script for us. Cave, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much. How are you doing?

• 0:31Speaker 02

  It is so nice to see you both. I miss your faces when I don't get to see them.

• 0:36Robert Evans?

  That's right.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  And now I get to see your faces, and that makes me happy. And then I get to talk to you. This is, now it's my turn. You've done so much.

• 0:43Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  You've done so much to bother people with terrible stories.

• 0:47Robert Evans?

  Really made them unhappy a lot. Yeah.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  It's my turn to give back to you. And I want to-

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a present first. Have you had fiber today, my friends? You should eat more fiber.

• 0:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah, Cave does always say that.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Thank you. Fiber zaddy here.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  Fiber zaddy. That's what they call me online, Robert. Fiber zaddy.

• 1:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  And I looked it up, and it's a good thing, apparently, to be a zaddy. So that's me.

• 1:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah, no, that's, that's good.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Um, you know, Robert, let me ask you a question. When you envision a doctor, someone trustworthy, someone you feel like you should be listening to, someone with advice you would follow, what do they look like in your mind? What do you, what do you envision? Are they, are they handsome? Are they fit? Are they charismatic? And don't, don't lie to me, Robert. I can, I can tell when you're lying.

• 1:37Robert Evans?

  Honestly, I picture my old pediatrician, Dr. Sherrod, who was the doctor I had growing up, as soon as we moved to the Dallas area. He was a really good, I had a bunch of like weird health issues around my allergies as a kid, and every other doctor we went to was, or every other pediatrician we went to, had a lot of trouble figuring out what to do, and Dr. Sherrod did not. He was a really good doctor, like helped me with my allergy problems as a kid, was just always, like, my mom worshipped the guy. He was great. That's probably why I have such a positive opinion about doctors, because I grew up with a really, really good one.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Hmm, must be nice.

• 2:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I think about him.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  And Sophie, what about you?

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Um, you know, you know the details of all my medical history, both of you.

• 2:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Uh, a little sour on doctors these days, uh, you know, but I, I love you, and I love my brother, and you're both doctors, so-

• 2:33Robert Evans?

  There you go.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  I'm one of the good ones, Robert. I'm one of the good ones. Um, well, you know, here's the thing, I, I, you are both doing, I think, the reasonable thing, which is you are using your own memories, your own relationships with people you know and have met, and you know to be good doctors. But I would think, unfortunately, that's not always the case in this country. And I think when a lot-

• 3:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  -of people in this country-

• 3:02Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  -are thinking of a doctor, first of all, they're probably thinking of a male doctor, although-

• 3:08Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  -most evidence, most evidence we have would actually suggest you're better off with a female doctor. They've actually looked at that.

• 3:14Robert Evans?

  Just in general?

• 3:15Speaker 02

  In, well, if for a particular, the study showed, it was like in patient hospitalizations, but, um, it's certainly not worse. So that was like, actually kind of, it's funny that this had to be done, but at one point, there had to be a study that said, having a female doctor-

• 3:31Robert Evans?

  Can women be doctors?

• 3:32Speaker 02

  -is not worse. Right. And actually, it's probably better. So-

• 3:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  We'll probably get more of that. We'll probably get more of that in the future, too, but-

• 3:40Speaker 01

  It's a systemic issue.

• 3:42Robert Evans?

  Like, most of my doctors in adult have been women, and I usually, I just feel like they pay, have paid more attention to me, I guess. Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  I think that's probably it. You know, the study didn't really specify why, but, I mean, I, I suggest, I'm guessing that's probably it. But I think the truth is, for a lot of people, they're, they're gonna think of this doctor that's like, tall and handsome and stately and well put together, someone they could imagine wearing like a tailored suit on General Hospital, or like fitted scrubs on Grey's Anatomy.

• 4:14Robert Evans?

  Of course, of course. You gotta tailor your scrubs that you're going to throw out.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  It is crazy to me, the tailored scrub thing. I wear the biggest, baggiest, goofiest looking scrubs at work.

• 4:24Robert Evans?

  Hell, yeah, brother.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  I mean, here's the thing, it's like, I, I, like, my favorite part about my job is that I essentially get to wear pajamas, you know, to work. That's fantastic.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Us, too.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  But-

• 4:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, I am wearing pajamas right now.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  It's a good point. I could have skipped a lot of, uh, medical training and just gone straight to podcasting, but hey, live and learn.

• 4:42Robert Evans?

  We all could.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Well, I told my brother.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Um, so, so people, people are thinking like, there's Dr. Oz's and the Dr. Drew's and these kinds of guys. But I'll tell you something right now, I'm gonna tell you right now. I'm gonna take a stance here. I think doctors should be schlubby and silly looking. Basic, basically, I should be like the max handsomest doctor that you should envision. Like, it shouldn't get better looking than me.

• 5:06Robert Evans?

  Convenient rule to suggest?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Anything better looking than me, you're gonna run into problems. We've seen it time and time again. And I have another question for you. Have you ever heard of a Dr. Dennis Lowe or Dr. Faith Fitzgerald?

• 5:19Robert Evans?

  No, but Dr. Faith, I'm already getting like, uh-oh.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  I'm concerned.

• 5:23Robert Evans?

  That, that could be a problem. I mean, I know it's a normal name for a lot of people, but just the name Dr. Faith really concerns me.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Well, I'll tell you this. The reason you don't know of them is because they were amazing doctors, and they dedicated their lives to service and education. And I'm assuming they never had a Q score greater than 20.

• 5:41Robert Evans?

  I'm sorry, Dr. Faith. I apologize for judging you.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  And Dr. Dennis. So Dr. Faith Fitzgerald passed, but Dr. Dennis Lowe still kicking. And I was lucky enough to be mentored by both of these terrific and caring doctors. And that's why we're not talking about them today. But we'll be talking about someone you have heard of, one of the most famous, most influential, and most widely followed doctors in popular culture, Dr. Peter Attia.

• 6:08Robert Evans?

  Oh, boy. I, I know that name.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Have you heard? Yeah, what, what did you, yeah, I'm curious. What is the thing you've heard? I'm, I guess I know what it is, but just go ahead.

• 6:17Robert Evans?

  Not much. He just shows up. I mean, he's, he's involved in the administration, right? Like, he's been one of those guys who's-

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Very peripherally, very peripherally. Um, he is someone that the wackier people in the administration sometimes cite to show that they're not so wacky. Um, he kind of does a little bit of science washing. We'll get into that. Um, but he is the doc who, more than any other modern doctor, has worked to popularize and legitimize the field of longevity medicine. Are you guys familiar with that?

• 6:50Robert Evans?

  Yeah, like the Brian Johnson, try to live forever. I mean, like, the quack end of it is Brian Johnson measuring his sleep erections. Obviously, there's a good reason to care about longevity, you know? Like, that's, that's, there's also definitely a non-quack side of it.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, we're gonna get into that. We're gonna get into the good and the bad of it. So, uh, like-

• 7:09Speaker 01

  What I know about him is, uh, he exchanged quite a lot of emails with a not-so-friend of the pod, Jeffrey Epstein.

• 7:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  I, I have a question about, you are correct, and we're gonna get to that. Um, but my question for you, is Jeffrey Epstein, like, and you've probably made this reference already, but is he like the Forrest Gump of terrible people? Because the fact that he showed up in the story, that wasn't even the reason I wanted to talk about Peter Attia. And then when I was learning more about him, and I discovered that, I was, I'm like, is he involved with every questionable person?

• 7:46Robert Evans?

  Well, I, I mean, kinda, yeah.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  In modern times, someone?

• 7:49Robert Evans?

  Forrest Gump, it was just sort of like coincidental that he kept winding up in all of these historical situations. Jeffrey Epstein, like, knows and was involved with a lot of powerful people because he was providing them with services, so to speak. Or he wanted the clout associated with them because it, because there were people who didn't do anything awful that Epstein either funded or invited to a lot of things, because he liked to camouflage himself being surrounded by great scientists. And after his arrest, the people who were legitimately like, just caught up and like, didn't know anything and were legitimately just caught up in shit, they stopped hanging out with him. Once he was, like, charged and convicted of, you know, child molestation. But, uh, yeah, anyway.

• 8:34Robert Evans?

  So, yeah.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Well, he, he shows up here, and we're, we're gonna get into that. Before we do, there's a lot of other things I want to talk about. That actually wasn't even the main reason I wanted to discuss him.

• 8:44Robert Evans?

  Well, Epstein's a side part of this.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  We're gonna have a little bit of a nuanced, I'm sorry, an advanced discussion. We're gonna do the risks and benefits talk, just like you're supposed to with anything in medicine. We're gonna talk about the potential harms of overtesting and overmedicating. We'll talk about whether it's important to have the VO2 max of a Tour de France cyclist, how important it is to track your blood sugars by the minute if you're not diabetic, and if it's normal for your doctor to be on an email thread with Jeffrey Epstein discussing the nutritional benefits of conalingus.

• 9:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah, no, that doesn't, that seems questionable.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, I don't know if you want to use that as a cold open, but, you know, welcome to Behind the Bastards.

• 9:25Robert Evans?

  Yeah, Behind the Bastards, the only podcast that just said conalingus. Probably not the only one. One of them now.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 9:37Robert Evans?

  Picture this, you're listening to the Sniffy's Cruising Confessions podcast and suddenly, wait, what did they just say? Well, the questions raised in those show-stopping moments will be answered in the all-new bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor. Hosts Gabe and Chris will dive deep on a specific topic covered in that week's Tuesday episode, from sexual health and HIV prevention to finding the right doctor. Listen to this special bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor, now on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get podcasts. Sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences.

• 10:08Speaker 04

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 10:39Speaker 05

  I'm Melissa Jelton, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge.

• 10:54Speaker 06

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 10:59Speaker 05

  And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.

• 11:20Speaker 07

  If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body, but no one will find it.

• 11:28Speaker 06

  He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly.

• 11:33Speaker 07

  They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and they said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is.

• 11:40Speaker 04

  I saw him violent. Backhanded her. Pow! Listen to The Devil's Quarry, Season Two, in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 12:00Speaker 06

  Malcolm Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get The American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audio-books.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Okay, so before we get into this episode, I have to clarify a couple of things. He's not going to be the worst person you've discussed on the show. He's not even the worst doctor.

• 12:47Robert Evans?

  Of course.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  You've discussed him. He's not even the worst doctor you've discussed with me on the show. He's obviously not a bastard on the level of a Stalin, or Saddam Hussein, or Mark Zuckerberg. But in my mind, he represents a new kind of danger in medicine. One that doesn't come from direct harm to patients, but from credibility, and from charisma, and from privilege, from someone whose influence is outsized and ideas are actively reshaping medicine, and whose model of care, in my mind, is deepening inequality in this country. It's this, his whole approach is this sweeping reimagining of healthcare that claims to prevent heart disease, neurodegeneration, and all this stuff.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  And it sounds great, but it's not all supported by randomized trials. It relies a lot on speculative pharmacology, and under-tested and aggressive biomarker manipulation and testing. We'll talk all about that. I obviously take issue with some important aspects of his practice. This whole model of manosphere wellness influencer, or Maha-adjacent doctor, is something I find very troubling. History has shown us that if we don't nip these Dr. Oz's in the bud early, they can become real problems for everyone down the road.

• 14:03Robert Evans?

  They wind up in charge of everybody's healthcare. Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  That's right. Like, the people who are now in charge are the people I, were all internet trolls 10 years ago, and it blows my mind.

• 14:15Robert Evans?

  It's bleak.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  So about the manosphere, because I think it's kind of important that we discuss it. Actually, I have to say, one of the first times I was really exposed to it, it was a couple of years back. You probably don't remember, because you see this stuff all the time. But somebody tweeted that Robert Prop and I were part of the quote-unquote leftist manosphere, and I didn't know what that meant. And I had to look into it.

• 14:36Robert Evans?

  I still don't know what that means.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  It's not great, I don't think. I don't think it was a compliment.

• 14:39Robert Evans?

  I doubt it. What manosphere are we a part of? Okay.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  As the girly pop on the podcast, fuck no.

• 14:47Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  It's new.

• 14:49Robert Evans?

  I don't know what that's supposed to mean, but okay.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Okay. I think Dr. Atiya might maybe take issue with being labeled part of the manosphere. But a large part of his strongest support comes from there, and his appeal really comes from that same milieu that creates our Joe Rogans, or Andrew Huberman's.

• 15:09Robert Evans?

  Joe's Rogan, but sure.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, right.

• 15:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's like Attorney's General.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Like Johns Hopkins, yeah.

• 15:14Robert Evans?

  Right, exactly.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Atiya's rise, whether he likes it or not, is inseparable from this podcast industrial complex. They all exist in the same ecosystem. Now, I'm not an expert in this. In fact, most of what I know about the weirder parts of the online world, I've learned from you people here on Cool Zone Media.

• 15:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that is kind of our milieu.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  And I just, there's, you don't know, there's been a number of times that I've, like, texted Garrison to be like, can you explain what this means, or this means? And like, I'm like the, the old boomer, like, who needs help with their VCR. But here's what I've.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  That's good, that's good. That's good that Garrison's being a resource. We, we love that. Really, he's like, oh, I know things.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  It's like the modern equivalent of walking an old person across the street.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  That's, and I appreciate that.

• 16:09Robert Evans?

  But it's the internet, yeah.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  It's the internet. And so, but I think if you think of this online male self-improvement world as a Venn diagram, I think you'd see four circles. And please correct me if I'm wrong, and weigh in on this. But one, you have like the manosphere, the red pillars, the looks-maxing people, online forum dudes. And another, you have the bro-science fitness sphere, the testosterone growth hormone guys, bodybuilders. And the third is the tech optimization sphere, biohackers. That's again where Andrew Huberman comes in, Silicon Valley longevity enthusiasts like Brian Johnson, who will, we'll have to talk about some point in this.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  And, and also then, there's also the mainstream wellness sphere people. They're less offensive in general, more standard fitness stuff, like your Chris Hemsworth and Hugh Jackman's proponents of the health.

• 17:05Robert Evans?

  Hugh Jackman, yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Hugh Jackman. And Peter lives somewhere in between all of these, but probably more three and four. Not that far from the manosphere, though. The manosphere definitely borrows from him, particularly his language on testosterone, metabolic health, VO2 max, protein. His audience definitely shared with Rogan, too. And I will say this, actually, here in San Francisco, Silicon Valley tech folk love him. And I've met some very reasonable people who listen to him and follow him closely. I've had people with no history of diabetes ask me about getting continuous glucose monitors because of what they've heard on his podcast. That was really eye-opening for me.

• 17:49Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  So what sets him apart from these people is that he doesn't talk about gender politics too much. He has or had a lot of female followers, especially after Guess Who exposed him, Oprah. And he also had a 60 Minutes profile piece. And more like, and more than most of the people in this world, he does actually seem to look for evidence-based medicine. He cherry-picks it a bit when he does, but he's, I think he's actually a smart guy. I know a lot of doctors, like Dr. Oz and Dr. Ben Carson, all these guys, they're very successful, and I think people consider them smart, but in truth, I don't actually find them that intelligent. They're great at surgery, and they're very hardworking, but you know, they're, they're surgeons.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, surgeons, sorry. We could talk about the difference between natural medicine surgery at some point, if you guys like, but I never found these two.

• 18:41Robert Evans?

  Weird Al wrote a song about that. People are aware, yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Did he really?

• 18:44Robert Evans?

  Yeah, like a surgeon. Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:47Robert Evans?

  To the tune of Madonna's Like a Virgin, yeah.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as with most things, it was explained early in the 80s by Weird Al Yankovic. But I never found them that smart. It's actually kind of wild how far you can go in medicine with some charm and some hard work, and I think those two are, are examples of that. But I think Atiya, he's really smart. And, and I have to tell you, as I prepared for this episode, there were multiple points where I was like, I actually, I like a lot of what he says, more than expected. I agree with some of his recommendations, and there's even some stuff in his history that I empathize with. But there is definitely this pipeline of men who start with guys like Atiya and Huberman, and end up with Peterson and Tate. He's like the evidence-based gateway to the manosphere.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  And that's one of the reasons why I think I want to discuss him here with you folks.

• 19:37Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Before we get into him, though, let's talk a little bit about longevity medicine in general, and what it actually is. Its proponents would say that for the past century, medicine has been reactive. You've probably seen people talking about this quote-unquote sick care, right?

• 19:54Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  You, you get sick.

• 19:56Robert Evans?

  Yeah, shocking that doctors focus most on, like, saving people's lives when they're ill. I mean, like, obviously preventative medicine is important, but it's not weird that that's the way, you know, goes.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's kind of what we have to do, because if we don't, what's going to happen? You have no one else to care of you. But there's some, there's some truth to that, like, it's always important to think about preventive care. In longevity medicine, it's meant to be sort of a way to flip the dynamic that you're, it's preventive, personalized medicine that aims at expanding not just your lifespan, but what they call your health span, those years that you're in good health. It's driven by something called the Geroscience Hypothesis, which is basically aging itself is the shared root of most chronic disease. So instead of playing whack-a-mole with one disease at a time, you could, in theory, delay all of them.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  And, and like every system that is totally on the up and up, you can consider it like a pyramid. The base is the lifestyle components. The middle is measurement, tons of testing, wearable biologic age clocks that claim they can tell you how old you are. And at the top level of this pyramid of this particular field of medicine is the experimental frontier with drugs and supplements aimed at aging pathways like metformin, rapamycin, NAD plus, you might have seen that one already. One pattern about all of these meds, including the ones that we'll discuss later, there's some impressive effects that are in mice or lab animals, but limited or really non-existent proven effects in humans.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  The evidence of longevity medicine working in people and humans is actually pretty thin. And we're not even sure if we're measuring the right things with these biologic clocks and that sort of thing. And of course, there's a question of safety of taking some of these medications long term. We'll get to that. I think some parts of this field are generally very interesting and I'm hopeful that some good science will grow out of it. But the more I learn about longevity medicine in general, the less I like it. The thought of these uber wealthy technocrats, learning to expand their lifespans even more than they already have, I find to be kind of terrifying. And as we're going to get into in the second episode, longevity medicine is particularly

• 22:16Speaker 02

  bad because it disproportionately affects the wealthy, if it works at all, allowing them potentially to extend their influence, consolidate their power and delay the generational progress of science and cultural, political progress and all that stuff. Maybe I'm being nihilistic, but my question for you, and you both, I'd love to hear what you have to say, is would you even want to live forever? And I'm assuming the answer is no, but how long? Be honest, how long would you want? What's the longest you would want to live for?

• 22:48Robert Evans?

  I don't know. Like, I can't imagine. It depends. I think the big thing for me, and this is, there's some reasonable people in the longevity space who talk about this, is like health span. Like, I would like to stay healthy and mobile and independent, you know, the entirety of my life. That said, I don't know that I'd want to live longer than like 90 years. That's kind of the outside, you know? Like, I don't think, like, the kind of max human lifespan, more or less, like 90 to 100 or so, I don't feel like, that seems great if I could not, like, be miserable and decrepit and dealing with like Parkinson's or Alzheimer's or whatever, you know, like at the end of it, right? Like, that's kind of the big thing for me, as opposed to like objective lifespan.

• 23:33Robert Evans?

  Because I do think, I'm already, there's already things that I know are like good changes to society that I'm never going to be okay with. Like, at some point, we'll figure out, you know, some degree of self-driving, or we'll finally get our shit together and replace all the cars with like good public transit and whatnot. I like driving, you know? I know that's bad, and I don't, you know, I support society reforming out and getting out of its addiction to cars. That'll just never be something I'm personally ever like able to enjoy as much as other people. So I don't want to go on too long, like to the point where hopefully, if things go well,

• 24:15Robert Evans?

  the world would be a lot better, you know, in 70 years or however, 50 years, 40 years. But I don't know that I'll be comfortable in it, right? You kind of hope that the world evolves beyond you, if you're not a shitty person, I think.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  You know what I love? After everything you've seen and studied, you're still kind of an optimist on the inside. I mean,

• 24:36Robert Evans?

  I don't know if I think that's likely.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  I know you can't really say that because you have to be cool and like, you know, you have to be aloof and whatever podcasts are, but you're kind of a, you're kind of an optimist, and I love it.

• 24:49Robert Evans?

  The darker thing would be to say, I don't want to live through the complete collapse of the biosphere's ability to support life, which certainly seems likelier than us getting rid of cars and developing good public transit.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  You could have said that first, but you didn't, because you're an optimist.

• 25:04Robert Evans?

  On the internet to people, I don't want to depress people anymore. I do that too often.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Sophie, how long, how long would you go for?

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Well, if I could be healthy and Anderson could be healthy, you know, probably the same answer as Robert, I don't want to, I don't want to be, I don't want to be uncomfortable, I don't want to be like miserably uncomfortable and a burden to the people around me, one. And like, you know, if they could like health max my dog to live longer and be, and live great and be strong and live long, I mean, that would be sick. I don't know if we need to do that for people, but for dogs, dogs don't live long enough as is.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  I agree with both of you about the health span. I think that is very important. I think we should be focused more on living our best lives for as long as we can.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Eventually, it will catch up to us all, but I mean, yeah, I think that's a realistic thing to do.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  There's G S Eads in this shit. For you.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Look at you.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  For you, Pave.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  You know, for me, a big part of this is not just the longevity medicine aspect of it, it's that I dislike concierge medicine in general.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  It feels bad.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  For everyone. It feels bad. Well, there's a reason. It shrinks access for everyone that's not wealthy and turns healthcare into this subscription based privilege, rather than a social responsibility to take care of people. And a typical doctor who moves into a concierge practice, and by the way, I understand very well why you would want to do that. And there's like a non-zero percent chance that I will eventually sell out and have my own concierge practice. So I, I get it. But a typical doctor who moves into a concierge practice will reduce their panel from something like 2,000 to 3,000 patients, closer to 300. And this is only accelerating the collapse of our healthcare system. And it's also leading to ethical drift in the medical profession.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  And concierge medicine is, right now, really the only delivery system for longevity medicine for these people. We'll, we'll get into that. But let's get into the via Tia of it all.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  But first.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Ah, but first.

• 27:13Robert Evans?

  You know what will make you live forever? The sponsors of this podcast. I guarantee it. And if you don't live forever, you can sue iHeartMedia, you know?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no.

• 27:24Robert Evans?

  Sophie, Sophie, it's perfect. They can't, look, if they don't live forever, how are they going to sue us? If they die, what are they going to do? What are they going to do? It's the perfect, it's the perfect scam. It's the perfect scam.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  We'll be way out of the podcast game by the time they figure it out.

• 27:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah, we'll be in El Salvador by then.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Robert, don't tell them where we're going.

• 27:42Robert Evans?

  It's okay.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Honduras is what we meant.

• 27:44Robert Evans?

  We're really going to North Korea, Sophie, but we're not going to tell them that.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Robert, no.

• 27:52Speaker 05

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. I'm Melissa Jelton, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

• 28:35Speaker 05

  She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year.

• 29:15Speaker 06

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 29:21Speaker 05

  Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:27Robert Evans?

  You broke me. You do not deserve happiness.

• 29:31Speaker 05

  I'm Andrea Gunning. On this season of Betrayal, we meet Carl Bryant. Carl thought he was living a normal, drama-free life, until the messages started.

• 29:41Robert Evans?

  You will have hell to pay.

• 29:44Speaker 05

  For nine months, someone infiltrated every aspect of Carl's life, threatening to ruin him.

• 29:52Speaker 06

  Cyber stalking, swatting, extortion, impersonation.

• 29:57Speaker 05

  And then the text threats escalated.

• 30:00Robert Evans?

  Someone's not going to make it out of this alive.

• 30:03Speaker 04

  Yes, Department! It's playing out in real life, not just on the phone.

• 30:09Speaker 05

  Every piece of evidence pointed to one man. But every piece of evidence was a lie.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  He was not going to stop unless we stopped him.

• 30:21Speaker 05

  Listen to Betrayal, Season Six, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 30:28Speaker 04

  This is Daryl Bell.

• 30:29Speaker 05

  And I'm Kadim Hardison.

• 30:31Speaker 04

  And together, we're the voices behind the newest podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network, A Different Worldview with Daryl and Kadim. Each Thursday, we're rewatching an episode of the show that changed our lives and so many others, A Different World. We're sharing never-before-heard stories from behind the scenes and sitting down with other stars from the show to hear their unique perspectives. We're also discussing the arts world and pop culture headlines with plenty of laughs along the way. We did a movie called School Days, and me being a trained actor. You got, you get the first shot, so I took the trained actor. Go ahead. And you being the dude that says, "Hey, Spike, on the street, you saw him coming out of the bathroom or something?" And said, "Hey, Spike, coming out in the bathroom." I might have made that up.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  So I'll miss the start of something great. Listen to A Different Worldview with Daryl and Kadim every Thursday from the Black Effect Podcast Network, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. They shared the same name, the same home, the same DNA, the same blood. But behind closed doors, blood isn't always thicker than water, and family loyalty can turn deadly. From shocking betrayals to carefully planned murders, The Black Effect's new original podcast series, Bloodline Crimes, hosted by me, Morgan Wood, explores the darkest and bizarre

• 31:56Robert Evans?

  Cases where family became the most dangerous threat of all. Because sometimes the person you should fear most is not a stranger, but rather someone sitting at the dinner table with you. Real cases, real families, real killers. This is Bloodline Crimes. Listen to the Black Effect's Bloodline Crimes every Thursday, starting October 8th, from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:35Robert Evans?

  And we're back. Sophie and I aren't moving to North Korea to avoid extradition laws. We didn't spend years working out a plan with the Kim Jong Un, or whichever, whichever Kim we've got in there right now. I think it's Jong Un, right? I forget. Anyway, let's continue.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  You should probably learn that before, you know.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Kim Jong Un, yeah, his dad was Kim Jong Il.

• 32:56Robert Evans?

  Look, whoever I've been emailing is in charge of North Korea, according to the guy I've been emailing and sending money to.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  You just called him Kim.

• 33:04Robert Evans?

  It's fine. Exactly.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  I get it.

• 33:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Let's, let's talk about Peter Attia. Let's start with the early years. He's talked a lot about his childhood, but it's usually in these controlled, self-narrated ways through podcast monologues or interviews.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Or his book, Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity. There's been a couple of very useful pieces written about him, but not any real investigative biography. So, we have to reconstruct his early life with what's been revealed in his podcast. I listen to a lot of podcasts, both his and others, that he's been on, and what I can gather from online sources. So, he was born in Toronto, 1973, to Egyptian parents who had immigrated to Canada. I don't think a lot of people know that he's Egyptian. I didn't actually, until we started this. It's a little bit of a personal bummer for me, whenever you see a famous Middle Eastern-type doctor that's not rad. He described his parents as highly educated, intellectual, not sure what they did for work.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  From some interviews, I got the sense it was white-collar work, but in his book, Outlive, he actually refers at one point to his father working in a limestone quarry. So, I'm not sure. I'm assuming there's not a lot of white-collar jobs in a limestone quarry.

• 34:15Robert Evans?

  Not, not, no. I mean, I guess the limestone could turn your collar white, because it's limestone. So, maybe like, literally, yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. That's what I was thinking. And I'm sure this is not surprising to anyone, but his family was very achievement-oriented. He described them as emotionally restrained and demanding in subtle, culturally-specific ways. And then that last aspect is probably pretty similar to Dr. Oz and his backstory. And it's something I actually know a little bit about myself. I could probably dedicate four whole episodes to this particular topic, but I'll just keep it short here. And that, being a physician of Middle Eastern descent myself, my family and my father in particular, were also very clearly achievement-oriented. But it's also a large part of how and why I became a doctor

• 35:06Speaker 02

  and why I've had any success. That being said, one major difference between me and him, as I was reading about him and thinking about him, I don't think anyone would ever mistake my family for being emotionally restrained. Like, a lot of Persian households, we felt things out loud. You know, very loud. And his family's situation felt like a more high-pressure immigrant household with love being expressed only through achievements and not as much through affection. And I think that is fertile soil from which an optimization-obsessed man can grow. I'm assuming this is a recurring theme you've seen in some of the people you've covered. You did Dr. Oz, right?

• 35:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, we've, we've talked about Dr. Oz. We've talked about most of the Oprah industrial complex bastards.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  That's great. So, he described himself as a very anxious child who was obsessed with being perfect and was terrified of disappointing people. I think a lot of doctors can understand that and relate to that. Doctors are people-pleasers. And sometimes this is helpful, sometimes it's not.

• 36:08Robert Evans?

  Well, not always, but yeah. Doctor House, of course.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. He was not a people-pleaser.

• 36:13Robert Evans?

  Being an exception, no.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  The most, actually, interestingly enough, this is a small aside. Remember I mentioned Dr. Faith Fitzgerald? She was this brilliant internal medicine doctor at UC Davis. And the rumor is that she was the basis for that character. Not because she was crotchety or mean. She was actually super sweet and nice, but just because she was one of these brilliant, like, diagnosticians.

• 36:34Robert Evans?

  She was so good at her job, yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. So, he excelled at his, at school academically from a young age, top of his class, I have no doubt about that. He also said that being smart was the only thing I had. And quote, "If I was not exceptional, I was nothing." Which, I think, is like the Middle Eastern equivalent of Ricky Bobby's "If you're not first, you're last."

• 36:58Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. Being normal is the greatest shame there is. Sure, if that makes sense.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of pretty textbook-gifted kid, identity formation stuff happening here. And there's also some overlaps with Andrew Huberman and Dr. Oz in that they all had this sort of, uh, early athleticism and these signs of obsession with being physical and physical fitness. He reports that he was always pushing himself physically and was drawn to endurance sports that tested his limits. And this is a seed for things that come up later for him. Ironman races, swimming the Catalina Channel, the VO2 max focus he's big on. He was also a boxer, which is, you know, actually surprises, gonna surprise people, but it's one of my favorite things to watch in terms of sports is boxing. My dad was not only a doctor, but he was a boxer when he was younger. So, I kind of grew up watching it.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  And, and although the doctor in me does not love what boxing does to your brain, I do enjoy watching the boxing. And that is a dirty little secret that I've never shared on air before. So, there you go, a little behind-the-bastards exclusive there.

• 38:02Robert Evans?

  Who doesn't? I mean, especially just from a medical standpoint, I love watching CTE as it happens, you know?

• 38:09Speaker 02

  I mean, just in li, in real time, yeah. I mean, I will watch it and just be like, God, I don't feel good about this, but I'll watch it nonetheless.

• 38:16Robert Evans?

  I love it, I love it.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  Something that is not a very bastard-like trait about him is that he has been open about dealing with anxiety, perfectionism, and fear of failure, and even anger issues. It's usually in the context of how he overcame it, but that's just stuff we have to be talking about. We have to be talking about moral injury in doctors. We have to be talking about how doctors have psychological and psychiatric issues, just like anyone else, and how to get past that. So, kudos for him for discussing it. He's actually even talked on air about going to a recovery center in Kentucky called Bridge to Recovery, not for alcohol, but for what sounds like anger management. So, actually, I feel like if you focus all his work on just like that, how his background created issues for him and how to address that, I think he'd be a pretty cool dude.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  But, you know, regardless, it seems like he didn't get unconditional love growing up. And whether that left an emotional wound that shaped his relationships, or need for mastery, or later, why he felt prey to the gravitational pool of powerful people like Jeffrey Epstein, I think is something to discuss. And, and I'll be upfront, I am not a psychologist. I'm not a psychiatrist. I am a simple gastroenterologist, which is essentially an ass dentist. But I think it's important to touch on the psychological components of his drive. And actually, I think from listening to him talk, I think he would agree that that's an important thing to discuss as well in his credit.

• 39:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  In his book, he briefly mentions kind of obliquely experiencing trauma, but it doesn't really, he never really explains it. I didn't see what that meant, what he was referring to. Did he just mean the upbringing that we've already discussed? Or was there something else? I, I couldn't find that. But he does great. He gets into Stanford Medical School after completing a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering and Applied Mathematics at Queens University. Not the typical humanities, biologic science-leaning approach a lot of medical students do. Nothing wrong with that. I mean, I studied biology and music in college, and it was always cool to me when someone came from a different mindset, like engineering or some systems-minded thinker. I think there should absolutely be room for that.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  I think it's cool. He loves math. It actually makes me wonder if being a doctor didn't come with this sense of accomplishment or achievement that he could show his family. I wonder what he would have done. Probably could have been very useful to the world in that sense as well. And I'll say this, I know Stanford pretty well. I did rotations there, did research there as well. And they do great research. A lot of very important bench-to-bedside translational science happens there. And this is gonna be a hot take, and one that I will certainly regret. But since I do have some familiarity with what I speak, I will say this. It's not the best place to go for clinical training, if you really want to take care of patients.

• 41:12Robert Evans?

  Strong stance, anti-Stanford coming out here.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  I, I know, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna... Absolutely going to regret that and probably ask you to cut it. But no, you know what? We're going to do it. We're going, we're, we're going with it. The, the best rotations you get when you're there are when their students and their residents get to do time at the Santa Clara Valley Medical Center, which is this terrific county hospital that Stanford works with and that I spent most of my training in fantastic place. And, you know, I'll give an excuse. I mean, I, I don't need an excuse to give them a shout out, but I'll take any time I can. Santa Clara Valley Medical Center is rad.

• 41:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah. If you get, go, go hurt yourself now and go there. You know what?

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Ideally, ideally.

• 41:50Robert Evans?

  Shoot an ale gun at your hand and head right over, you know?

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 41:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  No, great people, great doctors, really great, uh, mission there for, for the doctors there. So, uh, and I know people that went to Stanford around this time and it's clear that even then he was standing out. People knew he was going to be kind of something at an early age. He was athletic. He already had this shaved head look that we kind of see now. Um, what was that?

• 42:16Robert Evans?

  I, okay. Shaved head. Sure.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's some, there's some guys that lean into that early.

• 42:22Robert Evans?

  Easier.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  He's got the Mr. Clean.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  It's, and it looks, I mean, it looks good on him. Like I-

• 42:28Robert Evans?

  Good look for some people.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  He has the right head shape.

• 42:30Speaker 02

  It won't work for me. I will tell you that right now. It's, it's going to be bad news. I'm going to Turkey when things get real bad here. I am, I can't, um, it's not going to be good for me if I don't. I'm going to need to do something when I get bald because I, uh, my head's not this well shaped. This is, um, so he, he graduates, uh, and he matches at general surgery residency at Johns Hopkins. Uh, it sounds like he was going to go into a surgical oncology field after that. Um, but as we'll discuss, he didn't actually finish his surgical residency. A, a general surgery residency and stop me anytime if I'm going into the weeds here about this, but I think it's kind of, uh, important to note, they're usually about five years long. It can be longer based on if you do research and if

• 43:13Speaker 02

  you do a fellowship or extra training on top of that, like surgical oncology, it can be even longer. He did some time at the NIH as well, which, you know, Johns Hopkins was great for getting funded research, uh, at least then. I mean, who knows now with the country being the way it is, but it's still a very prestigious place, Johns Hopkins. Great place to go. In year five, what ostensibly could have been his last year, he quits residency. It's not clear if he was counting the extra year of surgical oncology and that, but he's towards the end of his training and he quits. Now, I think this is something to discuss. I, I have no evidence that he was forced out, but I do have to say it's always a little

• 43:55Speaker 02

  unusual for residency programs when someone leaves. In the rare cases I've seen it, there's usually a reason. There's usually someone's being forced to leave. I, in this case, I don't see that, but it is always something good to note. Um, even people who doubt whether or not they want to be practicing physicians and they hate residency still finish it to at least give them the option of being a doctor afterwards if they want. I actually loved residency, but I would never, ever do it again. It is by far the most challenging time of a young doctor's life, particularly in the beginning. I mean, you don't sleep. Him and I were both around the same time, him before me, but we both experienced what

• 44:39Speaker 02

  life was like before the 80 hour work restriction. There is a restriction now, so you don't work more than 80 hours and that was considered soft.

• 44:47Robert Evans?

  Nice mild 80 hours. Yeah.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  And we were, well, I was like the first class to really experience, um, how, to see how different that was. Um, so I was, I was a lucky one, but anyways, uh, so generally the last year of residency isn't, isn't necessarily easy, but it tends to be easier. You have more specialty rotations. You're usually not on call as much, but it is interesting because we've seen this now a couple of times in people that are related to the manosphere or related to the current administration. For example, Casey Means, I don't know if you're familiar with her. She was President Trump's, Donald Trump's earlier surgeon. Right.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  Sophie doesn't like her.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  We talked about this. Yeah.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Yes. Yes.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  She, she was like very like wellness guru-y type content and had very questionable opinions on scientifically proven things.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  You're exactly right. She's really a co-architect of that Maha messaging that, that was, that's pushed and still being pushed. And she dropped out of her OHSU head and neck surgery residency six months before completing her five-year program. Now, it, as opposed to with Peter, there are some different accounts. No one's ever, I haven't heard anything from anyone, even people who knew him, that there was a, a reason he left other than what he says. But with her, her account is, you know, basically she got sick of the stick care and et cetera, but her colleagues have a slightly different account of why she left. But I have no reason to doubt him, you know? To be honest, people should be able to quit,

• 46:25Speaker 02

  leave what's not right for them. Actually, more doctors probably should, should do it. I know too many doctors that are unhappy and stuck in that sunken cost fallacy where they feel like they can't quit or leave. You could actually even question why, you know, Abdul Said, uh, wouldn't, didn't even go to residency in the first place. I think in his case, it, it makes sense. He never bills himself as a clinical doctor. He doesn't seem to have any interest in providing direct patient care. He's more interested in the, the broader strokes of public health. Now, for, for Peter, when he was asked about why he left residency without finishing or becoming a board certified MD, he reports that he left on his own accord because he became disillusioned with the medical system, what

• 47:09Speaker 02

  he calls medicine 2.0, which the fact that he's already referring-

• 47:13Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 47:14Speaker 02

  You, you're getting a vibe.

• 47:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Okay. You're getting, you're getting a vibe already if, that it's being referred to-

• 47:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Excited for medicine two. Medicine one did too much like, you know, vaccines, stopping the spread of horrible plagues, making it so that you don't stub your toe and then die of an infection. I'm excited to see what medicine 2.0 brings us.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and it just really-

• 47:35Robert Evans?

  70-hour erections? The sky's the limit.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Well, he calls what we're experiencing now medicine 2.0. What he wants to offer you is medicine 3.0.

• 47:45Robert Evans?

  Was medicine 1.0 like arsenic?

• 47:47Speaker 02

  I'm guessing that's like-

• 47:48Robert Evans?

  And telling you to go to the sea when you're sick? Yeah.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  I, I don't know. Um, but he, he calls it medicine 2.0 and it really just strikes me as odd because it has this real sort of like Silicon Valley bro vibe to it just off the bat, you know, uh, doing that. And he explains that he did this because he had essentially a crisis of faith. Again, he's, he sells this frustration as the symptom, saying that it's built to react to disease instead of preventing it. And whenever I hear that, it has a real like, pick me energy. I'm, I'm a different kind of doctor, you know? I'm not like the other doctors. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a cool doctor.

• 48:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  That, that's, that's a bit of a red flag. Keep that in mind. Um, and when this topic comes up, he explains why he left by telling a story about his last year in residency when he was treating a patient in the ICU with an antibiotic called gentamicin. Now gentamicin is a type of antibiotic called an amino glycoside. This is going to be on the test and it's used for bad infections sometimes and it gives you really powerful activity against gram-negative bacteria. But here's the issue with it. There is a narrow therapeutic window that you kind of have to hit when you use it. The effective dose is actually pretty close to the toxic dose and-

• 49:08Robert Evans?

  Ah, okay. Yeah. Like I can see how that could be a problem.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  You can see why this is a problem and small, small errors can cause, uh, real harm, permanent harm to either your kidneys or giving you what's called ototoxicity. You can lose your hearing from it. Um, it's terrible. It's like, uh, it's a board's question when you're young and it's one thing you always keep in mind. You rarely see, eh? I don't think I've ever seen it, but there's systems in place to help prevent this from ever happening. It is something that has to be monitored carefully because if you give too much, you can cause permanent damage. But if you give too little, well, then you're not stopping this bacteria that may be trying actively to kill you. So it's, it is an interesting antibiotic in that sense and it's tightly controlled with weight-based dosing and checking kidney functions to make sure you're getting rid of it.

• 49:55Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  And checking peak and trough levels. So you check the blood when it's at its highest point. You check the blow, blood when it's at its lowest point. So you're getting a sense of where you need to give the dosing. It, it's not the kind of drug that a resident should be casually fucking around with. And there's-

• 50:13Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  There's generally protocols for its use and at least-

• 50:17Robert Evans?

  Really it's a measure twice, cut once kind of drug.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 50:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Measure twice or they die.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  And this is why pharmacists are so amazing because the pharmacists have, the amount of, you know, deaths pharmacists have, you know, prevented by double checking doctor's orders, mine included, um, you know, cannot be, uh, underplayed. It is, it is huge and there, that's why at most hospitals and Johns Hopkins, Johns, it's not, by the way, it's Johns Hopkins. It's not John. It's like Ruth, Ruth Chris's Steakhouse. It's a, I never understood that, but at Johns Hopkins, it's attending approved and pharmacy driven. It's like the pharmacists are really the ones that you, that rely on for these sorts of things. So-

• 51:03Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  While he's caring for this patient receiving the antibiotics, he starts considering there has to be a better way to optimize the timing of this drug. He wanted to disrupt the way it's delivered. He didn't say those words disrupt, I don't think, but that is how I feel. I feel like he said it in that Silicon Valley sense of the word to disrupt.

• 51:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  He's a disruptor. Um, so he stays up, he stays up late while he's on call. He presumably studies up on the drug's half-life and other factors and he creates an Excel spreadsheet that would change the timing to more accurately predict when the drug would hit trough levels and that's the best time to give it.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  It's not entirely clear to me if this was a problem that was in need of solving. I mean, the current method may not be that efficient. There's a lot of moving parts to it. It's hard to know. Whenever he brings this up on podcast, it's usually with like some, you know, dude, bro, who doesn't like have follow up medical questions for him, but.

• 52:03Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  So it's hard, it's hard to know. I mean, I would actually, if I had a chance to talk to him, that's actually probably the first thing we'd start with is talking about the story. And he's, he apparently ran it by an infectious disease fellow and they recommended against doing it, but he does it anyways, right? He enacts this new dosing protocol without his attending's approval or without any communication with the pharmacy. And when he tells his attending this the next morning, when everyone's like doing rounding and they're all standing around, you stand around a group. Do you guys know what rounding is? You know what attending is? Do I have to, stop me if I'm like using medical.

• 52:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah, like doing your rounds, you mean?

• 52:42Speaker 02

  Like, that's, that's right.

• 52:44Robert Evans?

  Like in house with the, yes, Scrubs actually shows that a lot more. Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  Good house.

• 52:49Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  But for, for the audience, if you haven't seen House, you haven't seen Grey's Anatomy, it's when a bunch of doctors discuss a case and go around and discuss all the cases they're assigned to.

• 53:01Robert Evans?

  You lead the doctors who are like doing their residency around and a more experienced doctor is like talking them through as they look at different patients and stuff to learn. Yeah.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. Every time though, just to be clear, listener, Robert knows what he's doing. Every time he says, yeah, it's like house, he knows that a little part of my soul dies and that's why he does it.

• 53:23Robert Evans?

  No, I mean, my last experience, my, my last direct experience with rounds was when my dad was dying. His oncologist took like a bunch of students around and they were doing like their rounds. And I overheard them talking about my dad's case where he was just like, yeah, this one really like, you know, it was a very surprising case. We didn't expect it to go. Like it was, it was not a great thing to hear after his, you know, uh, cause it didn't like, the case did not proceed the way he had expected. It was not like expected to be a very serious situation. He wound up dying. So I got to overhear him like talking to students about that. But yeah, I know what rounds are.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, it is a, it's never fun to be the interesting case or the family.

• 54:05Robert Evans?

  You really don't want to be interesting. No.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. God, now I feel like an asshole for making fun of you.

• 54:11Robert Evans?

  I didn't blame him. Like he's an oncologist, right? Yeah. That's the job.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  Okay. So he enacts this, this new dosing protocol and he's telling the team about it. And the attending is the, the head of the team, the person that's out of training. They kind of run the team. They're at the top of the ladder. They spend the least time there, you know, the interns, residents, they're the ones that are there all the time. And the attendant kind of comes in for a period of time, but not as long. And he thinks he's going to get lauded for, for being a very special boy here. Instead, he gets chewed out. His attending considers it a serious breach of safety and hierarchy. And I have to tell you, um, it, it, things I think have overall gotten better, but there are few things worse than having the attending totally dress you down in the rounds

• 55:01Speaker 02

  around other people. And in some places, particularly I think Johns Hopkins, that's the kind of place where that sort of thing's going to happen. Less so here on the West Coast where we are. People tend to be like more chill, but man, there are attendings with like that, I need to get a little kick out of seeing their intern, their medical student, their resident cry. Like it is, it is terrible. So I actually, even though I agree with the attending, I do feel, I do feel for him in this case. I don't know what happened to the patient. There's no, there's never any discussion of that. If it hurt the patient or if it didn't, I'm assuming it didn't. I'm hoping, but I don't know.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  I assume the attending was worried that changing the testing and dosing could have either invalidated the levels or caused the next level to be uninterpretable, or maybe even wind up delaying the patient's care even more. So I'm not sure why the attending was so mad. I never found anything from their perspective, but at the end of the day, it's their, it's totally their responsibility. It comes down to them. So if anything happens to that patient, I, I can understand why they'd be so pissed.

• 56:11Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  Now that response pisses off Atiya, who feels his brilliance is being stifled. And he feels that this is an example of medicine punishing out of the box thinkers. But before I tell you more about what happens next, I want to tell you, uh, that coming up soon, you're going to hear some, uh, in the box thinkers.

• 56:37Robert Evans?

  That's right. That's right.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 56:39Robert Evans?

  The box of money that you need to give to them.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Or I was thinking Blue Apron, if they're still sponsors, if not.

• 56:45Robert Evans?

  Blue Apron does send boxes. I think they may have gone out of business because of all of the, all of the deaths, but I'm not sure. Uh, you know, no, no, we don't joke about the island anymore. We just joke about the deaths.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Ah, that's funnier anyways. Yeah. All right. Well, let's, uh, just, just take a little break. I'm taking over the podcast now, folks. I'm calling the ad breaks. We'll be right back.

• 57:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 57:09Speaker 04

  Cash flow crunch. OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 57:40Speaker 05

  I'm Melissa Jelton, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

• 57:52Speaker 03

  She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety.

• 57:58Speaker 05

  Stories of survival.

• 58:00Speaker 06

  The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck because by all rights, I should be dead.

• 58:07Speaker 05

  Cases that everyone else called closed.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  They can't convict her, right? Like she has so much evidence.

• 58:13Speaker 05

  These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that.

• 58:24Speaker 03

  And we were babies. She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it and he got a year.

• 58:32Speaker 06

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 58:38Speaker 05

  Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 58:45Speaker 04

  You broke me. You do not deserve happiness.

• 58:48Speaker 05

  I'm Andrea Gunning. On this season of Betrayal, we meet Carl Bryant. Carl thought he was living a normal, drama-free life until the messages started.

• 58:59Speaker 04

  You will have hell to pay.

• 59:01Speaker 05

  For nine months, someone infiltrated every aspect of Carl's life, threatening to ruin him.

• 59:09Speaker 04

  Cyber stalking, swatting, extortion, impersonation.

• 59:14Speaker 05

  And then the text threats escalated.

• 59:17Speaker 04

  Someone's not going to make it out of this alive.

• 59:21Speaker 04

  Yes, department!

• 59:22Speaker 05

  It's playing out in real life, not just on the phone. Every piece of evidence pointed to one man, but every piece of evidence was a lie. He was not going to stop unless we stopped him.

• 59:37Speaker 05

  Listen to Betrayal, season six, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Daryl Bell. And I'm Kadim Harison. And together, we're the voices behind the newest podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network, A Different Worldview with Daryl and Kadim. Each Thursday, we're rewatching an episode of the show that changed our lives and so many others, A Different World. We're sharing never before heard stories from behind the scenes and sitting down with other stars from the show to hear their unique perspectives. We're also discussing the arts world and pop culture headlines with plenty of laughs along the way. We did a movie called School Days and me being.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  You got, you get the first shot. And I took the trained actor. Yeah. And you being the dude that said, hey, Spike on the street. You saw him and they're coming out of the bathroom or something and said, hey, Spike. Coming out of the bathroom. I might've made that up. So don't miss the start of something great. Listen to A Different Worldview with Darryl and Kadim every Thursday from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. They share the same name, the same home, the same DNA, the same blood. But behind closed doors, blood isn't always thicker than water and family loyalty can turn deadly.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  From shocking betrayals to carefully planned murders, the Black Effect's new original podcast series, Bloodline Crimes, hosted by me, Morgan Wood, explores the darkest and bizarre cases where family became the most dangerous threat of all. Because sometimes the person you should fear most is not a stranger, but rather someone sitting at the dinner table with you. Real cases, real families, real killers. This is Bloodline Crimes. Listen to the Black Effect's Bloodline Crimes every Thursday, starting October 8th, from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:01:51Robert Evans?

  And we're back. Kaba, you really should explore at some point accidentally creating a conspiracy theory about a company that people really do believe. And then you have to backtrack it because you didn't realize that it was going to actually be taken seriously. It's always a good time.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  That is, um, is that, is that real? That that happened? People actually believe your very clear, obvious jokes?

• 1:02:12Robert Evans?

  For sure, for sure. That's why we stopped making the Blue Acre jokes. Yeah. People was like, is there really an island? Yeah. More than one person took it seriously.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  I, I will say this, after my first or second appearance on this podcast many years ago, um, you, you did do an ad break and you bleeped out the name of the, the, the company. And I got a number of messages from people begging for me to tell them who it was.

• 1:02:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  And, and I was like, no, I signed an NDA. I can't, uh, say that.

• 1:02:47Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  But, uh, yeah, I guess I'm not surprised that people took it seriously. But speaking of taking things seriously, uh, last we left off, Peter Attia felt his brilliance was being stifled and he took that seriously and he was very upset. I listened to a couple of podcast interviews he did about this. And this is something he said, "It struck me as anti-intellectual. Maybe my model wasn't perfect. We'll never know. But the fact that nobody even cared to see if there was a better way to do this drove me batshit crazy." Now, here's the thing. Let me say something here. Let me say something here. Let's take a little quick aside here. I, I think this is very emblematic of my broader thoughts on Peter Attia.

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  Maybe he had a good idea and we should always be trying to push science forward and deliver things better, deliver better care. But you know, when he says, "We'll never know because nobody cared to see if there's a better way to do it." There is a better way to do it. You can make a study out of it. Why not do that? He's right. We'll never know if it works because he didn't study it. He had the idea and he didn't study it. This could have very easily been done at a place like Johns Hopkins. And you could do this and prove that it works. If it's not unethical, an IRB will review it as such and you can prove it.

• 1:04:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  I, I just want to add that I'm really, I'm really enjoying the way that you pronounce Johns Hopkins every time.

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  Johns Hopkins. I really have to really stress the plurality of Johns. There's more than one John involved in the Hopkins of this situation. And it, I don't understand it.

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  So this was, this will probably bum out the doctors on my little group chat. You know, my little doctor group chat that I run some of the stuff by. But as I'm researching this guy for this episode, and I use the term research lightly, I, I actually, there's a lot of things I like about him. If he was more inherently a physician and less a businessy sort of like accountant, engineer guy, I think he could have been a great doctor. And like Peter.

• 1:05:02Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Pete, I don't know if you're listening.

• 1:05:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  My Middle Eastern brother. I don't think it's too late for you to have an amazing redemption arc. I think it's still possible, but this, that mentality has to change. I mean, B, just a doctor. Do the doctor thing, says the medical podcaster.

• 1:05:25Robert Evans?

  Says the doctor. Yeah. I mean, it like, yeah. You don't have to, yeah. You, you don't have to make bedfellows with the worst people in the world

• 1:05:35Robert Evans?

  to do medicine.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  We'll get, we'll get to that in the next episode. So basically what he was doing here is an unauthorized experiment. And I know this.

• 1:05:42Robert Evans?

  Sure.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  Sounds like a sort of small potatoes issue to a lot of the Behind the Bastards listeners. It, it's not mass murder. And again, he's not as bad as RFK Jr., who I really, really, really don't like. You probably know that. I don't enjoy him very much. Um, I don't like the man.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  But this laissez faire approach to medicine and science is just not how science works. Science is supposed to be a little boring.

• 1:06:07Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Honestly, 10 years ago, I probably wouldn't be bothered by this at all. But what has happened over that time is that a lot of the little stuff in medicine that we just let slide has added up and it's led us to where we are now in this country. 20 years ago, if I heard about Gwyneth Paltrow putting a jade egg, you know, up her hoo-ha, or somebody using essential oils to cure their diabetes. It's the medical term. We would, we would laugh and move on. That'd be it. But all these things add up over time. The more nonsense we let go by without saying anything because it's easier to ignore it, the more coffee enemas we let slide now because we don't want to have to explain

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  to you that you don't need to detox outside of your liver and kidneys and that it's bad for you. The, the, the more of this we let go, the easier it is to eventually have confusion around important public healthcare issues like vaccines, for example. It creates this murkiness around science where people can be like, yeah, there's lots of different ways to interpret science, like it's religion. And like you should, that's not how, that's not how science works.

• 1:07:21Robert Evans?

  You're reading tea leaves as opposed to just trying to figure out like what works and doesn't empirically.

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause now we have like this thing where people are like, hey, you have your interpretation of science. I have mine. And, and sure, to some degree that is true. People can have different interpretations of the study, but, um, there are basic tenants of science that need to be met before you can do that. Anyways, uh, in listening to Attia talk about this particular experience in his podcast, sometimes he acknowledges, yeah, it was kind of a bit reckless what I did. In his book, he kind of comes across as much more like contrite. And he, he seems to understand that maybe he was just trying to prove himself. But I actually feel like in the more truthful moments, when he's talking about this on

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  like the Manosphere podcast, he interprets this as less of being a misguided intern to be more of a misunderstood iconoclast.

• 1:08:18Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. He uses the story to justify leaving surgery and setting him up as this maverick thinker, ready to tell you the one trick your doctors don't want you to know. And there's a, a telling quote that I heard him, uh, talk about in an interview about why he really left.

• 1:08:38Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  He didn't feel residency was a meritocracy. So on an interview with a guy named Jaco, are you familiar with Jaco?

• 1:08:47Robert Evans?

  Oh, Jaco Willak. Yes, yes. The former SEAL team guy who was, uh, the officer in charge of, uh, the American Sniper's Unit. We talked about them in our SEAL episodes because their unit killed a lot of civilians. Or was alleged by another Navy SEAL of having killed a lot of civilians.

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  That checks out. That checks out. I have to tell you, in preparation with this episode, I exposed myself to some real Manosphere stuff.

• 1:09:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  And that, that felt real Manosphere up in there. Um, yes, I felt like discipline, self-improvement type stuff. Yeah. So, so he's having this discussion with Jaco. And in regards to residency, he said, quote, "We all get paid the same. We all take the same number of years to get through." First of all, I, if I said that exact quote, I would mean it in the 100% different way he does. But he said, okay, we all get paid the same. We all take the same number of years to get through. It seems crazy to me like there's no other system where that would be the case. Like, I couldn't think of another system where they just had this complete, total lack of meritocracy. And I'm like, bro, what are you talking about?

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  That is the point of residency. We all have to do the work. You all have to do it. We're all in the shit together.

• 1:10:01Robert Evans?

  That's the whole thing, right? Is that like, everybody has this same basic, kind of like, not the same, but like, yeah, you, there's a standardized procedure for getting prepared to go be an independent doctor, right?

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  That's, and that's why, like, even if you're on a flight and there's nobody around to help you, if there's a psychiatrist there, you're still better off with the psychiatrist helping you through an emergency than somebody who has no experience. Because they've been through a lot of this shit. You get a lot of training during this time. And, and it's not about the prestige or the paycheck. That can come later. And, and I'm trying to think of analogy here. It's a bit hard to do, but it'd be like, say, somebody, uh, somebody shows up to bootcamp and they're already able to do like 50 pull-ups. And they're expecting because of that, they can like skip rifle training.

• 1:10:52Robert Evans?

  Right, right. The pull-ups will be enough, yeah.

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, because they're ahead of the curve. It's like, great, congratulations on the pull-up, but you still don't know how to be like a marine, dude.

• 1:11:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  Being smart and hardworking doesn't mean you know how to practice medicine.

• 1:11:06Robert Evans?

  No, no. Being able to answer all of the questions on a test doesn't mean that you know how to practice medicine, because there's like a lot more. It's just like, you could have someone who knows intellectually and can explain how to deal with like a gunshot wound, or like a fucking horrible broken leg with the bones protruding from the skin. But then if they actually sit down in front of a person, they have like a panic attack because they can't handle blood. That person may have all of the knowledge, but they still can't be a doctor, because you can't be scared of blood and be a doctor.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  That's, it's exactly, it's exactly right. It takes actually, I think, years of being an actual attending to get past, to where, to get to where you need to be. And, you know, even after years, I think you still should have some imposter syndrome. Like, I don't think the imposter syndrome should go away anytime soon. I, I think like, I think that's, that's just a, uh, something that we always need to be humble about. But something, I mean, speaking of humble, there is a little bit of a prestige of a sort. If you really wanted to, if you're really good, you do get asked to be a chief resident, like I was. That is a little bit of prestige.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Stop, you were chief resident?

• 1:12:17Robert Evans?

  Humble brag, humble brag.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  I was chief resident, that is correct. So.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Oh my God, honey, I did not know you were that good.

• 1:12:25Robert Evans?

  Didn't realize we had a chief resident on the pod.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, if I'm being honest, they're just like, they're like, hey, we need some schmuck to stick around one year and not take a paying job and just do some teaching. So it's, you know, they were much smarter people.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  And you were like, I volunteer as tribute.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. They, they, they had a sucker in me. I was a.

• 1:12:47Robert Evans?

  I've always thought of you as the Jennifer Lawrence of medicine, yeah.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  That's always been what I've called myself, Kabe from the block.

• 1:12:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:12:54Speaker 02

  So anyways, after this.

• 1:12:56Robert Evans?

  I think of a different Jennifer, but okay.

• 1:12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know, I didn't catch a reference, but I just wanted to.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Jennifer Lawrence, as in Katniss Everdeen, I explained the whole thing, you know?

• 1:13:05Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes, yes, that's all good, that's all good.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I didn't understand the Jennifer Lopez of it at all, but I thought it was, uh, still good. So he makes this decision, he's gonna leave residency. And after a chance encounter with a radiologist who worked previously at a consultant firm named McKinsey and Company in Palo Alto, that name might be familiar to some of you, he leaves medical training to try his hand at consulting. And I think I'll probably pick up there for the second part and the conclusion of this episode, this topic, I guess, when we get into some more of the real bastardy parts of, of this. But let's maybe end there for now, does that sound like a good plan? It's your podcast, I don't wanna, I don't wanna be running your podcast, you tell me what you wanna do.

• 1:13:51Robert Evans?

  I appreciate it. Thank you for, for, again, doing the episodes this week. That's gonna be part one. We'll be back on Thursday for part two. Until then, Kabe, do you wanna tell the, uh, the people where they can find former chief resident, Dr. Cavahoda?

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  That is how I think I should be referred to at all times. Okay, so, thank you again very much for letting me come on and, and do this. It's, it's fun, it's a lot of this conversation, I think, is, is really important. I'm really glad that we get to have it. There's a lot that's gonna go into this conversation, particularly in the second part, that says a lot about our state of medicine, where we're heading, why I find it troubling. And, uh, I appreciate you guys having me, so thank you so much. Okay, so some of your listeners may already know that they can find me on my podcast, The House of Pod. It's a relatively fun, informal look at medicine and science, and we take a look at wellness and health grifters and talk about RFK Jr., all the terrible things he's doing to usher

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  in this golden, uh, age of diarrhea that we are in. And you can find that anywhere you, you look for podcasts. And, uh, both of these fine people I'm talking to today have been on that podcast in the past, so you'll hear people you, you'll know and love. But starting later this month, uh, there's also something very exciting for me that I'm very excited about and I wanna tell you all about. It is my new podcast about Persian history. It's gonna be a fun look at Persian contributions to the world of art, medicine, science, philosophy, taking a look at a lot of things that we've sort of been either written out of, or at least minimized in, in terms of telling the history of it. It's gonna be with my co-host, my friend, Shahin Dvari.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  If you guys watched Survivor Season 48, he was on that. I'm really enjoying preparing this and, uh, recording these episodes. I think it's gonna be a ton of fun for you all as well, even if you're not Persian. It's just, if you like anything about history and fun storytelling, we're gonna be doing that. It is called Persian of Interest, so keep your eye out for that, please.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 1:15:53Robert Evans?

  Awesome.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you, I felt pretty proud about that one.

• 1:15:56Robert Evans?

  Check it out, everybody. Check out Persian of Interest and check out part two of this on Thursday. Bye, everybody.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Bye.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind Me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards. We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking.

• 1:16:41Speaker 05

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal. I'm Melissa Jelton, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge.

• 1:17:27Speaker 06

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 1:17:32Speaker 05

  And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.

• 1:17:52Speaker 07

  If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body, but soon they'll find it. He acted friendly, he talked friendly, he sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and they said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent, backhanded her, pow!

• 1:18:18Speaker 07

  Listen to The Devil's Quarry, Season Two, in the Bone Valley feed, on the iHeart

• 1:18:23Speaker 06

  Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:18:33Speaker 06

  Malcolm Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get The American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks.

• 1:19:07Speaker 05

  In 1986, a man named Scott Macklem was killed in broad daylight. Police quickly found their suspect, prosecutors convicted him, but now, almost 40 years later, I'm re-examining this case. I really didn't believe any of it was real, and I was like, well, they're, they're gonna figure out this is not me, they're, they're gonna do their police job. Has the wrong man been in prison this whole time? Listen to Examine: The Backfire Effect on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:19:45Speaker 05

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.