435: Get Up and Aggressively Attack Until You Win. Lessons from A Marine Named Mitch.

Lessons from Mitchell Paige. Enlisted Marine involved in endless battles in the 1040s. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 435 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  The night we moved off the beach inland, somewhere around Henderson Field, we were to beef up the small perimeter which had been held by the other two regiments. Our friends at the beach told us to expect to see some activity after dark, as they had just told us about the way the enemy harassed them at night. Just as we were starting across an open clearing near Henderson Field, Washing Machine Charlie, the Japanese observation and spotter plane we had been told about, dropped his greenish-white, but very illuminating parachute flares right over us, lighting up the entire area like daylight.

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  Naturally, we hit the deck immediately and not a soul moved. A moment later, the booming from Sea Lark Channel came, the horrifying red-hot naval gunfire ripping up trees and causing the earth to move under you as each big round came crashing ashore.

• 1:13Jocko Willink?

  This was our baptism.

• 1:20Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is an excerpt from a book called "A Marine Named Mitch",

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  written by Mitchell Paige, who served as an enlisted Marine, was eventually commissioned. And he was born in Charlieroy, Pennsylvania, August 31, 1918. His parents were Serbian. They had immigrated to America from overseas, and he was the youngest of three, older sister, older brother.

• 1:58Jocko Willink?

  Spent his teenage years in the Great Depression. Doesn't talk about that too much in the book, gives some kind of basic background. But as he's growing up, he sees some, it's interesting, he sees some, some violence and whatnot. But it turns out that the military looks like a pretty good option. And we're going to get into it. Get into his life and you're going to hear some stories that you won't forget. Here we go. "One day after high school was over, I kissed my mother goodbye. My very close friend Johnny Holler was two years younger than I, wanted to go with me.

• 2:40Jocko Willink?

  Mother packed a bag of food for us and Johnny and I set out for Baltimore. We started walking and the next day we arrived in Baltimore after being given several rides by people on the road. The recruiters told me they could not accept me until the end of August because I was just seventeen and besides, I needed to put on more weight. So on that hot summer day in 1936, Johnny and I started back to Camden Hill. This was the greatest distance either of us had ever been from home. We walked many miles as we were embarrassed to put our hands, to put up our hands to flag a car or a truck. Once we came to a stream where we stopped for a rest. I washed out my socks and put them on a rock to dry, then I bathed myself. Johnny laughed at me when I told him

• 3:23Jocko Willink?

  you had to check your socks, shoes and feet if you're going to walk long distances. On my eighteenth birthday, I was back in Baltimore, alone this time. I passed the physical examination, but I had to eat about a dozen bananas and drink several glasses of water as I still wasn't quite heavy enough when the doctor started the examination. I had my left hand on a Bible and my right hand was raised facing the American flag. My spine tingled as I repeated the oath administered to me by the Marine Corps officer that day in the recruiting office in Baltimore. Quote, "I will uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies whomsoever, foreign or domestic." I was given a train ticket to Paris Island,

• 4:08Jocko Willink?

  South Carolina for my boot camp training. There were other new men on the train. Also, and we quickly got acquainted. We talked about our new adventure and all the fun we were going to have, but that all changed when we were met at the train station in a little town by some Marines known as drill instructors or DIs. I never realized anybody or anything could be so rough. Our drill instructors were truly tough men. I can recall Corporal Ambrose D. Webb. He would put his nose against a recruit's nose and say, "If you don't shape up, I'll kill you." And we all knew he meant it. One night about 0200,

• 4:50Jocko Willink?

  he made us get under our bunks, roll a heavy marching order, then carry them outside, put them on our backs, and then we had to double time into the swamps. He marched us right into Ribbon Creek while standing on the bank screaming, "Down, you dumb bast- drown, you dumb bastards, drown!" We had outstanding men and knew what march discipline meant by that time. The first man in the water marched straight through. The rest followed, and as a consequence, no one was hurt. We were dead tired when we finally got to bed in our barracks that morning, and revly sounded a very short time later.

• 5:29Jocko Willink?

  A very, a favorite practice of Corporal Webb's while we were at the rifle range was to march us out to a very sandy area where he ordered us to stand at attention for an hour at a time. By the way, that's the worst. When I had to go to, like, again, you're going through basic SEAL training. You, you know, you gotta like do pushups and burpee. Well, we didn't do burpees. They do them now. We did eight-count bodybuilders. Whatever. They're doing calisthenics. That's how you're getting crushed. When I went to officer candidate school, a lot of it was stand there at attention. Don't move. And I would much rather take the burpees than the eight-count bodybuilders or whatever.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  What is, what is the position of standing?

• 6:09Jocko Willink?

  Hands at your side.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Oh, at your side.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  Your feet are together. You're looking straight ahead. It's like that. Normal military position of attention.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  You can't like loosen up or nothing.

• 6:19Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Stay still.

• 6:20Jocko Willink?

  Stay still. It's not fun. Back to the book. With our shirt, with our arms and necks exposed since we could only wear an undershirt, the thousands of sand fleece were all over us in our nostrils, eyes, ears, and hair. Webb paced back and forth around us, pounding the palm of his hand with a stick, screaming, "If you move a muscle, I'll kill you."

• 6:42Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  And look, I'm obviously I'm not going to read the whole book. Fast forward a little bit. Uh, graduation from boot camp was the highlight in my life to that point. Hell yeah. Fast forward a little bit. When I enlisted, when I had enlisted in Baltimore, the commandant of the Marine Corps was Major General John H. Russell. On December 1st, 1936, when General Russell retired, Major General Thomas Holcomb became the 17th Commandant of the Marine Corps. As years went by, the old salts used to say, and how many commandants have you served under? It was wonderful to know that I was no longer a recruit. I was now out serving with other regulars from boy to man.

• 7:28Jocko Willink?

  So again, this is 1936. So, you know, this is the Great Depression is going on and there's no war going on. And he gets assigned to a ship. He gets assigned to the USS Wyoming in Norfolk, Virginia. And they set sail out to the Atlantic and he goes, you know, through San Juan, Puerto Rico and Guantanamo and through the Panama Canal out into the Pacific Ocean. Goes up the coast of Mexico, ends up in California.

• 7:59Jocko Willink?

  Going to the book here, pick it up. The next day, February 18th, 1937 was a cool, overcast day and we were off San Clemente Island, which is

• 8:10Jocko Willink?

  65 nautical miles off the coast of San Diego where you and I live. And it's also where SEALs get trained, not only in basic SEAL training, but also in some advanced training, you go out to San Clemente. So San Clemente Island has a special place. Of course. In our hearts. So here he is. Overcast day, we were off San Clemente Island when at 10:42, a powder charge of a five inch shell exploded in a breach which had not been properly closed. At that precise moment on gun number 13, starboard side, Marine Captain Edward J. Trumbull and five enlisted men were killed. 10 others were seriously injured and one died a few hours later.

• 8:54Jocko Willink?

  I helped a man to the sickbay whose arm had been blown off the shoulder. It was a horrible sight.

• 9:01Jocko Willink?

  That was the first of many terrible sights I would be experiencing in the next few years. So that's one thing they do at San Clemente Islands, you can, you can bomb it. So they do naval gunfire out there and that's what they were doing, I'm sure at that time. So then from there, he gets onto another ship, the USS Chumont, goes to Hawaii, goes to Guam.

• 9:25Jocko Willink?

  So he's on this USS Chumont, C-H-A-U-M-O-N-T, and he says this, "On the 19th, sorry, on the 19th of June, 1937, we steamed into Manila Bay, past Corregidor and into Manila Philippine Islands, some 1,500 miles from Guam. As the tug eased us into the dock, a loud cheer and laughter came from the greeters as the stern of the ship moved in closer. A marine private had lowered himself over the fantail of the ship and under the letters of the ship's name, he had painted the following, so you know, the name of the ship is the Chumont and that's written across the stern of the ship.

• 10:06Jocko Willink?

  And so this marine in the middle of the night had gone over the side and he had added letters underneath to make a sentence and the sentence that he wrote was, "Christ, help all us Marines on Navy transports."

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  And then he says this, "Only a troop passenger would understand his reasons for doing this." And I was a troop passenger on three Navy ships, two amphibious ships, one aircraft carrier. He says, and here's what he, here's what they were dealing with. "One canteen of fresh water a day to brush your teeth and wash your face, saltwater showers and sleeping quarters that were stacked so high, so deep and so close together, you never knew whose foot or hand would be in your face. Anyone with claustrophobia would never have survived. The chow lines were unbelievable. It was one continuous line that snaked all around the top side of the ship from about 0500 for breakfast."

• 11:01Jocko Willink?

  It's just, I was just laughing as I read this because that's exactly what it was like for me on a ship in the 90s.

• 11:11Jocko Willink?

  This was interesting. Fast forward a little bit. The total strength of the United States Marine Corps at that time was seventeen thousand. The total strength of the whole Marine Corps, seventeen thousand, which included all the officers and men stationed all over the world. Our pay then as a private was twenty one dollars a month. Twenty cents was deducted for the Navy each month for our hospitalization. So actually, I was receiving twenty dollars and eighty cents a month.

• 11:43Jocko Willink?

  So, little bit more.

• 11:49Jocko Willink?

  Our commanding officer was known as Miles R. Thatcher. He was better known to all enlisted men as Court Marshal Thatcher. It was said that Colonel Thatcher held the Marine Corps record for the greatest number of brig days awarded for accidental discharges and for failure to salute.

• 12:08Jocko Willink?

  And what's interesting about that is even though they had this super strict commander, they were still out just like

• 12:16Jocko Willink?

  being young Marines and getting after it. Pick up a little fast forward in the book. I can recall one big brawl in the Dreamland Cabaret, when about two hundred sailors, Marines and civilians turned on one another. While blowing my whistle and pulling sailors and Marines apart, I felt someone pummeling my back and the back of my head. I swung around and quickly, I could see a ballerina flopping to the floor as I had accidentally clobbered her with my elbow. I picked up her, I picked her up and deposited her behind the bar and told the bartender to put some ice on her head. I was glad that the night was over. I was worried about the ballerina, but she was all right the next day, nothing but a sore head. So these guys are just out brawling.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  He ends up going from Manila and heading for China on October twenty fifth, nineteen thirty eight. I went aboard ship in Manila and we sailed up to Hong Kong for a few days. And then to Shanghai. After we hit the Yangtze River, we then steamed along the muddy Wangpu River to Shanghai, which was about sixteen miles from the sea. We passed numerous Japanese warships and all looked as though they were itching for a scrap. That's nineteen thirty eight.

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  This was interesting, fast forward. One day I was browsing around in the Oriental Bookstore, which was located at 164 Victoria Road in Tianjin. I saw Lieutenant Chidster perusing a book. As I walked over to say hello to him, I noticed he was looking at a book entitled Opium. He asked me what I was reading, and I told him I just purchased a book about Genghis Khan. Previously, I had purchased a book about Marco Polo, the Venetian traveler. Lieutenant Chidster said he was reading all the books about dope he could lay his hands on. The next day, when I came off watch and walked into the guardhouse, the sergeant of the guard told me that Lieutenant Chidster wished to see me.

• 14:18Jocko Willink?

  When I went into the small officer of the day's room, Lieutenant was reading the book about opium. He told me to sit down, and then started to tell me why he was so interested in books about dope. He said, "Someday dope will be the ruination of the world. Dope will do the peoples, dope dope will do to the peoples of the world what bombs, bullets, and bayonets won't do. It will kill millions without wounds, cuts, dismemberment, mutilation, or bloodletting, but rather it will kill by destroying the mind."

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  He told me about the horrors and the tragedy he believed would beset the world, all mankind, through the use of narcotics. He told me how the Japanese had introduced their red pills into China. He said the Chinese had recently instituted a law that Chinese manufacturers of dope and the Chinese peddlers of dope would be shot.

• 15:15Jocko Willink?

  He gave me a real education on opium, heroin, and morphine.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  He moves again. I went to Chin Wang Tao on the coast where I went aboard the USS Henderson. Or more familiarly known as Hendy Maru, any sailor or marine who's ever traveled to or from the Far East in the 30s and 40s. So he's on another ship. Back across the Pacific, back to Honolulu, fast forward, San Francisco.

• 15:54Jocko Willink?

  Through, back through the Panama Canal, back to Brooklyn. Granted Navy, granted leave, goes home for the first time. Mother read several letters to me she had received from the old country. Where it was feared that Serbia, in Serbia, that they too would be in another war. Prince Paul of Yugoslavia was reported visiting with Hitler. And many of the high Yugoslav air force officers were mingling with German officials and military personnel. Mother said she was certain that the country was being sold out to the Germans. When my leave was over, I was ordered to Philadelphia Navy Yard for duty. So he shows up there. Been promoted to corporal, September 10th, 1940. And again, just trying to give you some sense of what's going on in his world as being a

• 16:39Jocko Willink?

  a peacetime Marine during the Great Depression.

• 16:45Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit more, Captain Mahoney called me into his office, handed me a sheet of papers. He reached out his hand and said, "Congratulations Sergeant, I've been promoted." My date of rank was May 14th, 1941.

• 16:59Jocko Willink?

  Goes over, he's now tracking, you know, they're all watching these world events. He sees the Yugoslav get bombed by Hitler. And now we kind of get into it. Sunday, December 7th, 1941. I was sitting in my tent in New River, North Carolina, when the news on the radio was interrupted with a special bulletin, the Japanese were bombing Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. The news went around camp in a flash, as it did around the country and the entire world that day in December. All men on liberty and those who's, those on leave were recalled immediately. There were very heavy casualties in Hawaii. We learned as everyone seemed to have his ears glued to all the radios in camp that day. In addition, we learned that the Japanese had also struck at

• 17:43Jocko Willink?

  all of our other bases in the Pacific and in the Orient. All sixteen officers and one hundred seventy-eight enlisted men at Tianjin and Peking were interned that day by the Japanese. A short time after that, the first announcement, Captain Mahoney and Sergeant Bill Agee, who had just returned from Charleston, South Carolina, came charging into the tent. The captain's first words were, "Well, this is it this time." And we all knew it was too.

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  We, fast forward, when we learned that we would be the first to be going overseas, I thought how nice it would be if we would only be able to continue to listen to what was my favorite radio program, as it was also for practically all the Marines in New River, North Carolina, so they found out that they're leaving. This was a little side note as well. Well, it's not a side note. In October nineteen forty-one, Chesty arrived in New River, North Carolina, and took over as the commanding officer of the First Battalion, Seventh Marines. Our, so you got Chesty Puller. Get to hear about him.

• 19:02Jocko Willink?

  Our battalion executive officer was Major Odell M. Connolly, an outstanding officer in every respect. We all had absolute confidence in Major Connolly, and I personally was very happy to have such capable leaders as he and Colonel Hanekin. On the fourth of April nineteen forty-two, I was promoted to platoon sergeant in the Marine Corps. My machine gun platoon went aboard the USS Fomahalt, which was a cargo ship. Also aboard was a naval construction unit of Seabees.

• 19:36Jocko Willink?

  At zero four hundred on the tenth of April nineteen forty-two, we sailed out of Norfolk

• 19:42Jocko Willink?

  and out into the Atlantic.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  What's a CB again?

• 19:46Jocko Willink?

  So, CBs, it stands for Construction Battalion. So, in the Navy, they have, they need to build things. And so they formed this group called the Construction Battalion. Their nickname is CBs, CB, and their, you know, their symbol is like a little B. But they're all, and they still exist to this day. And, and they're really, in a way, kind of, the, the, the group inside the Navy that is likely to spend time on the ground in combat because they build things in an extremist situation. So, in, for us in tasking a bruiser, I had CBs with me.

• 20:27Jocko Willink?

  And they, so their job in our camp at Camp Mark Lee in Ramadi. So, if we needed something to be built, they built it. So, if we needed a bunker built, or we needed, uh, tables built, or we needed a building built, they would build it. Like, they would build a building. You know what I mean? Now, it doesn't, it's not up to code or whatever.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 20:49Jocko Willink?

  I mean, it's structurally sound, you know, it's two by fours and there's no sheet rock. But it's got plywood on the inside. And, and then these guys, actually our CBs, would go out and just build out whatever we needed to. So, they, when we would set up in a combat outpost, if we needed a little extra, who knows, maybe a little planning space, they'd go out into town and go down there and build it.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:14Jocko Willink?

  They, when Stoner was over in Camp Corregidor, they were in this building called Full Metal Jacket. You seen them, booby full. So, this building was called Full Metal Jacket, it was all blown up. This is over at Camp Corregidor, the first, the five oh sixth. And these soldiers and Marines and SEALs are living in this building called Full Metal Jacket. And I remember, one of the first things, so when we got to Ramadi, pretty early, we went over, they needed help over in that district of Ramadi, eastern Ramadi.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Wait, who, uh, who needed help?

• 21:47Jocko Willink?

  Well, there was a lot of enemy activity.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Oh, right. So, everyone that was there.

• 21:51Jocko Willink?

  So, when we showed up, we, we killed some IED emplacers, like, almost out of the gate. And Colonel Gronski, who's been on the podcast. We were, I'm literally in the, the, in his tactical, so the Brigade Tactical Operations Center. We'd been there for a little while, but a very short period of time. And when we got there, Marines had just had a massive IED in this place called Firecracker. And four Marines got killed. It was terrible. And the Marines kind of liaised with us and said, hey, we've got this area where there's a lot of IED emplacements. Do you, can you help us? And we're like, sure. And so BTF Tony took some guys, they would have

• 22:35Jocko Willink?

  set up a sniper position and killed IED emplacers in that vicinity where they had just lost those Marines. And I was in talking to Colonel Gronski as these reports are coming in, hey, there's been multiple engagements of IED emplacers and, you know, Colonel Gronski's, are those your guys? Yeah, sir, those are my guys. And he said, we could use your guys out in Eastern Ramadi, in this place called the Malab District. So I said, Roger that. And so we put together a package of guys to go out to Eastern Ramadi. And at first we took a big group, like probably, we probably took

• 23:15Jocko Willink?

  20 guys for the first series of missions that we did out of there. But when we got there, we needed a place to stay. So where we stayed was this place called Full Metal Jackets. And at that time, it was dirt floors, just mosquitoes, just hotter than hell. It's just sucked. It was nasty. What, mosquitoes, like a sand fleas or something? And it had moon dust. You know what moon dust is?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:42Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you've been to a place that has real world, like real world moon dust?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  So this had moon dust everywhere in Camp Corregidor. And the moon dust was just all over the place.

• 23:55Jocko Willink?

  So this place really sucked to live. So we ended up conducting operations for a period of time out there. And that's actually when we had the blue on blue. So all that stuff, so we conducted a bunch of operations. We ended up having that blue on blue. Now we go back to, we take, I take all those guys and we go back to Western Ramadi. When we get back to Western Ramadi, which is, which was called Shark Base, which we changed the name to Camp Markley after Mark got killed. So now we're back there and we, you know, we debrief the, the blue on blue. We set up standard operating procedures, make sure it doesn't happen again, all that. Investigation gets complete. So now it's, we're back, we gotta get back in the field

• 24:39Jocko Willink?

  and go do our job. And now it was, okay, we need to send an element of guys back over to Corregidor. And this ended up being detachment Corregidor, DetCor. So DetCor, which Seth took six guys, seven guys, out to DetCor. And Mikey Montsor was one of them. JP Danelle was one of them. So those, that group of guys, I think all the other guys are still in. Some of them are out. But anyways, it was that group of guys. They go back out there. So now it's just them, but now they're gonna permanently live there and they're

• 25:18Jocko Willink?

  in this freaking barracks that is sucks. So we explained that to the Seabees. And this whole story that I just told you is my love story for the Seabees. Yeah, yeah, hell yeah. Because then the Seabees go back, go out there, they load up a truck and go out there with all kinds of plywood and air conditioning and rewire the thing and get it all set up. And, and everyone built in these big kind of empty rooms, everyone built their, built their own little bedrooms. So, so Mikey Montsor, his, I forget, like Mikey's mansion or something like that, had like red velvet hanging on. And everyone had these little, basically built these little.

• 25:59Jocko Willink?

  You know, built a nice, a lot more comfortable. They put flooring in because it was dirt.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:04Jocko Willink?

  So they put plywood down the, so the CBs did that. The CBs also, so one of the, the CB chief, great guy, and so we got mordred and the morder round hit by our tents. And, but luckily, thankfully, I don't know how, it didn't hurt anybody, but it blew up our, put holes into our big, we had a big water tank, you know, like a 10,000 gallon water tank, a big giant water tank. And so it put big holes in it, was ruined.

• 26:42Jocko Willink?

  And somehow my CB chief went out and found, somehow he went out and found another tank and brought it in the camp and got it all hooked up. And, you know, I was talking to him and I said, hey, man, I thank you. Like he got it up in a day or whatever, two days. And I just went, I was like, hey, and again, this is my like love story for the CBs. And so I said, hey, chief, I was like, hey, man, I really appreciate you getting that done. That, that way guys can fill up their canteens and, and he's like, hey, it's no problem. I'll do whatever I gotta do to take care of you guys. So you can go out there and kill these bad guys. He said, because I don't want no more boom boom in the camp.

• 27:27Jocko Willink?

  And I said, I hear you, man. I don't want any more boom boom in the camp either. We didn't like that boom boom in the camp.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:33Jocko Willink?

  And so, yes, so that's what CBs do. And their, their motto is we build, we fight.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:39Jocko Willink?

  And we certainly gave them the opportunity to build and fight. Ramadi, they did a great job.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  So legit freaking like the, even the, even kinda, and I'm kinda slowly, not slowly, but over time, painting this picture of like how it all works, you know? And it's like, these are massive, massive operations, obviously where like you have a whole, their whole job is just to go and just build shit.

• 27:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. And so this, and we had, whatever, we probably had 30 vehicles. So we probably had 10 Humvees, a big, two big six buys, little like SUVs. Those guys maintained all those vehicles.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:14Jocko Willink?

  So, and, and it's a big deal when you're maintaining a Humvee that guys are gonna be driving in, that their lives are dependent on, it's a big deal. You can't gun deck the, the freaking maintenance on it. So they're doing all that. We, I think we had. Seventeen diesel generators in there, big, not like a camping generator.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:31Jocko Willink?

  But, but you know, a generator that's the size of a small truck. You know what I mean? So we had like seventeen of those, all the air conditioning units. These guys just, they were working around the clock, they worked around the clock. I think we had six CBs.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 28:44Jocko Willink?

  And then their, their boss, their boss technically was this master chief. So when you're a master chief CB, you're kind of just, you, you, you're, you're, you got a lot of power.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:55Jocko Willink?

  You know, so if we needed something and my chief could go to that master, that master chief would just take care of us.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:02Jocko Willink?

  He was just a great guy. They were just great guys.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that seems like you'd be a, I mean, obviously there's a lot to it, but that seems like that'd be such a legit job. Where you could just, just, hey, let's just build that thing right there.

• 29:12Jocko Willink?

  And it's very cool. If anyone's listening to this and you're, let's say you're sixteen years old and you like carpentry or you like working on cars or you like heavy machinery. You, you can go in the army for sure and there's, you know, you can be an engineer, but the CBs is a definite option. And their job, your job will be like diesel mechanic or heavy equipment operator. So when you, if you want to get a skill, you can go in the CBs and you can get that. And it is, it's, I don't know what it's like now. It used to be a little bit hard to make rank because it was such a good, like you, you, you're even recognizing that it's a cool job.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:50Jocko Willink?

  And so since it's a cool job, guys stay in it. And since it stays and it gets kind of, the ranks get filled up. So sometimes it can be a little bit hard to make rank. But our CBs were great and the young enlisted guys like the E fours, E fives, those guys were working twenty-four hours a day. Like it would just never stop because we had so much work for them to do. So those are the CBs.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Construction.

• 30:14Jocko Willink?

  And there's another thing about the CBs that they have to kind of improvise, adapt and overcome.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:21Jocko Willink?

  So they're gonna, like, where do you get a ten thousand gallon water tank in Ramadi, Iraq in the summer of two thousand and six?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:29Jocko Willink?

  You know, like, how do you do that? You gotta figure out, you gotta wheel and deal, you gotta have relationships with people. You gotta be able to trade stuff.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:35Jocko Willink?

  You know, he probably, I don't know what he, he might, he might've given away a truck. I don't know. You know, he did something. He did something.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:43Jocko Willink?

  He did what he had to do.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:44Jocko Willink?

  He was also strong, bro.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:47Jocko Willink?

  His nickname was Biggie. And he would, he would, he would just rep, warm up rep three fifteen. Honest, honestly. Like I do one thirty-five in a warm up, he would be doing that with, with three fifteen.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Oh damn, was it huge?

• 31:04Jocko Willink?

  Huge. Huge like, and like.

• 31:08Jocko Willink?

  What's the, what's the style where they're not lean, but they're definitely not fat. They're just huge.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:14Jocko Willink?

  But he wasn't, he wasn't fat. He was just like a large human, almost. You know, maybe he's not quite the same species as we are, you know what I mean? Like he's that much different.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:27Jocko Willink?

  Where you're like, this is not, you should, it's not normal to bench three fifteen, just repping it out. By the way, this isn't. Either the food's not great, that, you know, you're not, you're on weird hours.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:38Jocko Willink?

  And he's just in there just jacking.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  That's how his body is.

• 31:40Jocko Willink?

  Just, just jacked. So, yeah. There's my CBs.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, they always seemed legit, like the idea of these guys, and there's a lot of guys like that. And there's actually TV shows like this too, with the guys with the cars, where like, hey, let's just put a roll cage on here or whatever. They'll just.

• 31:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Cause they just know everything about, they just know how, you know, that's their, their skill, you know? Where, yeah, just like you said, where it's like, hey, let's make a, let's make a tower right here. And we're like, wait, we don't have that much wood. All right, well, I'll go find some shit to build this actual legitimate tower.

• 32:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  You know? It's like, man, that's kind of impressive.

• 32:11Jocko Willink?

  And that's, that was, that was a cool thing. It's like, just having that skill set.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:17Jocko Willink?

  And me having access to it. Oh, we, for instance, oh, we want to put a observation tower here. Cool. Give me a few days.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:24Jocko Willink?

  I don't have any wood. I don't have any of this, but I'm going to get it.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:27Jocko Willink?

  And you're going to have your freaking tower, sir. Cool.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  That's legit.

• 32:31Jocko Willink?

  So, check out the CBs. Good.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  All day.

• 32:34Jocko Willink?

  Good thing, man. All right.

• 32:39Jocko Willink?

  So these guys are now setting sail out there across the Atlantic. On May eighth, nineteen forty-two, we arrived in, arrived in Pago Pago, Pago Pago.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Pago Pago.

• 32:48Jocko Willink?

  Pago Pago. Thank you. In American Samoa.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, it would be pronounced Pongo Pongo if I'm not mistaken, because you add the N sound and

• 32:57Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  The G.

• 32:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay, we'll check with Tulsi.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, check with Tulsi to confirm now.

• 33:01Jocko Willink?

  Dude, she tightened me up on that podcast. Remember that?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Tightened me up?

• 33:05Jocko Willink?

  She tightened me up.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:06Jocko Willink?

  I said Samoa, she's like Samoa.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  But remember, and I don't know if I said this online or offline, but sometimes you can be kind of seen as a poser. Cause that's like the authentic way to say it. So if you're Samoan, you're gonna say Samoan.

• 33:19Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  But then usually people just say Samoan, you know, you know how like, you know.

• 33:23Jocko Willink?

  How Lee didn't want to like start trying to, you know what I'm saying? I wasn't over there trying to.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  You want to stay in your lane on that?

• 33:31Jocko Willink?

  Stay in my lane.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  But you know, it's weird. It is funny though, that I think America might be the only one that does this, the only country that does this. Where if you say like a, a, a non-English word or whatever, and you say it with the accent, like people like look at you or whatever, like it's funny. You know what I'm saying?

• 33:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  But I think all other countries, they say it with the accent. Like they try to say it the proper way.

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  But we don't or we do?

• 33:53Speaker 01

  We don't.

• 33:54Jocko Willink?

  We just say Samoa.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Wait, what? Yeah, exactly right. Or like even like, you know, you, you order like, you go to a Mexican place, you say taco, right? Or burrito, right? But it should be burrito, really, right? But if, if Jaco's over here, hey, oh man, let me get a, a water and a burrito, like people would be like, Jaco, what the hell? You know, like they'd be like, kind of looking at you funny.

• 34:14Jocko Willink?

  So we, we don't do that.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  We don't do that.

• 34:17Jocko Willink?

  My kids took Spanish in high school.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:21Jocko Willink?

  And I think they didn't like to be do, you know, they didn't want to be the gringo that's, so they would speak like full Spanish, but full gringo.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 34:33Jocko Willink?

  That's pretty funny.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. Yeah.

• 34:35Jocko Willink?

  Cause they, cause you learn a lot of Spanish, you know, growing up in San Diego and now you're taking Spanish, one, two, three, four, five and six, because they start taking it in sixth grade. So you actually know a lot of Spanish, but not even attempting to pretend as if you're gonna say burrito, you know, they're not doing that. They're just like burrito. So I always got a kick out of that.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  It's the, well, my mom is from, uh, Canada, right? So, and so.

• 35:01Jocko Willink?

  Canada?

• 35:04Speaker 01

  But you know, there's French, they speak French in Canada, right? A lot of the time too. So when she would say the French words, she would say it with the French accent and for whatever reason, I would, I'd be like, but you don't have to try to impress me with your bilingual French words, you know, but, but after a while, I realized.

• 35:22Jocko Willink?

  Put your mom in check, bro.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  But after a while, I realized, wait a second, that's like my bias, I think, you know, because you know, when people like, it's almost like you can sense when people try to do that. It's almost like they're trying to impress you with their like, I'm so worldly, you know? That's what it feels like. I don't know. I'm not saying that's what happens.

• 35:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's some people that are probably straight up trying to be respectful to the native language, right?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. You'd, yeah, you'd think so. I'm, I'm sure there's a bunch of reasons.

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  And there's some people that would think it's disrespectful to try and use that accent when you're a Howley.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, like who you think you are, kind of a thing. Yeah. And then, but here's the reality of it. When you really kind of detach, you're like, bro, you better start using that accent because that's how you learn the language way better. Because you know how they say when you're a little kid, it's easy to learn languages way easier? Because you don't build like lingual like habits or whatever. So, but then after the age of like 18 or so, you, you can't get rid of the accent, apparently, you know? So it's like, bro, you better try harder. Otherwise, bro, you're not going to learn that language good, you know? So it's like a better thing to try to use the accent. Bro, why are we hated on that? I don't know. It's weird. I'm sure there's like this big web of reasons.

• 36:28Jocko Willink?

  I guess. Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna kind of stick to my Howley ways. My, my gringo ways. So here we go. Back to the book. On May 8th, 1942, we arrived in Pongo Pongo, American Samoa.

• 36:42Jocko Willink?

  There was very little news that we could get aboard the Foman Halt, which was their ship. However, I did learn at Pongo Pongo that Corregidor had surrendered on May 6th. And with that, approximately 17 officers and 1,474 enlisted men of the 4th Marines were captured.

• 37:03Jocko Willink?

  From Pongo Pongo, we sailed around the beautiful islands and on May 10th, we disembarked from the ship and went ashore in Higgins boats through beautiful harbor to the little town of Appia. So imagine this, you're, you know, you're, you're part of America, the, the badass, best fighting force in the world. You get on board your ship and when you get off your ship, people had surrendered in Corregidor. By the way, that's a place, what's, what's interesting about this is he knew those, he'd been to those places. Cause remember, he'd gone off throughout the Southeast Asia when he was in the Marines prior to the war kicking off. So he knows what that means. That's gotta be a little bit horrifying.

• 37:47Jocko Willink?

  Now they're there on Appia and he's got so many cool details. I mean, they're out there, this is sort of you get into the, they're out there living with the natives, hanging out with the natives there. Very cool stories that he talks about. And of course, on top of that, back to the book, each day we held machine gun drill and I would scout the area. All the men were so enthusiastic and everyone seemed to be learning the Samoan language. This was very relaxing time in our service and it was hard to believe that we were at war. Again, these are dudes like where's he, he's from freaking Pennsylvania and now he's in American Samoa or now he's in Appia and he's just beautiful.

• 38:26Jocko Willink?

  About the 15th of July, we received information that Admiral Gormley had directed that the 7th Marines be ready to embark on four days notice with 90 days supply and 10 units of fire per weapon. That particular message naturally created quite a bit of interest among the officers and the non-commissioned officers as to where we would be going. I was very disturbed that we were unable to get any worldwide news. I miss the news, news so much. As Simo Scott and several other members of my platoon were always after me to give me my, to give them my predictions of what was happening. And then going to this, but he's a very well-read guy. You can kind of use, you know, who's, he's in the bookstore. He talks a lot about history and he studies history and he goes to places, he's learning

• 39:10Jocko Willink?

  about their culture. He's a very interested guy. He's a very curious guy. And clearly you tell from the book that he's someone that everyone kind of respected his opinion. So as world events are happening, plus he's an older Marine, lived in Asia, he knows these things. You know, you know how much?

• 39:27Jocko Willink?

  When you've been to a place, your knowledge of that place is exponentially more than when you've heard about it.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:32Jocko Willink?

  So when someone says, oh, when you meet someone and, and they say, where do you live? And I say, San Diego, and they say, where in San Diego? I always say, have you been there?

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 39:43Jocko Willink?

  Cause if they haven't been to San Diego, it doesn't matter what I'm about to say.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:46Jocko Willink?

  You know, but if they've been to San Diego, you're like, oh, we can narrow it down and we get, but if they haven't been there, so here, this guy's been all over to all these different countries.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  And he's well read, so he's got knowledge, but there's no news coming in. Back to the book, my men were very ardent listeners and occasionally in training lectures, I would cite certain references and quotes. One of my favorites, for instance, I reminded them of what the old French general told his troops before they engaged the Germans in battle in World War One. Quote, "There is no studying on the battlefield. It is then simply a case of making use of what one knows and in order to make a little possible, one must know much." Trying to get these guys to study and be ready. "When discussing possible carelessness in combat, such as neglecting to move from cover

• 40:37Jocko Willink?

  to cover, or failing to keep down low, I reminded them of the great German soldier statement Bismarck, who once said, 'Some say they learn from experience, but I prefer to learn from the experience of others.'"

• 40:53Jocko Willink?

  Our marine amphibious warfare doctrine had proven itself over and over in previous wars and campaigns. So again, this guy's not a combat veteran at this point, but he is a senior guy and he's trying to get his, get his individuals trained up, trying to get them to move from cover to cover.

• 41:09Jocko Willink?

  God, I used to have that when I came back and I was running training and I'd see guys walking in our urban training, I'd see guys not standing by cover. I would feel sick. I'd feel sick.

• 41:24Jocko Willink?

  Guadalcanal, so now we're gonna get into it.

• 41:30Jocko Willink?

  We arrived in Esperito Santo, under escort, on September 12th. The next day Admiral Gormly ordered the 7th Marines to proceed to Guadalcanal. So at dawn on the 14th of September, we left Esperito Santo escorted by three cruisers, plus several destroyers and minesweepers. There appeared to be some disagreement between Rear Admiral Kelly Turner and Major General Alexander A. Vandergrift, the commanding general of the 1st Marine Division on Guadalcanal, as to where exactly we were to land. According to a Navy chief in the radio shack, Turner wanted us to land about 20 miles east of the perimeter, but General Vandergrift wanted us closer to the perimeter.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  In any event, the weather was quite heavy and at dawn, about 5:45, we went ashore. So it's, even these guys, like the troops, they hear about these little disagreements and the chief in the radio shack who's listening to them talk, he's spreading the gossip about what's happening. "Two of our destroyers were lobbing shells into nearby..." I'm fast forwarding. "Two of our shells were lobbing shells into the nearby jungles harassing the enemy while we were carrying the crates off the beach, so they went ashore. Up into cover under the trees, then suddenly we heard anti-aircraft firing all over the place. Someone yelled that enemy Japanese zeros were coming in to strafe us. I jumped behind some big crates.

• 42:58Jocko Willink?

  I was getting ready to move as a plane went zooming over us." It was one of our own, and it was a great misfortune that we had crippled one of our own aircraft. I'm sure that was an unusual incident with all the new people around. Nonetheless, I knew then why all our friends were constantly scanning the skies and why our ships wanted to pull out of the area as soon as possible. This was Guadalcanal, British Solomon Islands, America's first offensive since the day the Japanese launched their infamous attack on Pearl Harbor, December 7th, 1941, some nine months earlier.

• 43:39Jocko Willink?

  Now, I read about their baptism, right? A moment later, the booming from Sea Lark Channel came, the horrifying red-hot naval gunfire ripping up trees and causing the earth to move under you as each big round came crashing ashore. This was our baptism. As I lay there on the ground at Guadalcanal, I wondered how many of those ships pounding us at night I had seen previously in Shanghai and other ports in China. I wondered too, how much of that flying steel that came at us from hundreds of shiploads of scrap iron the Japanese hauled out of our country before the war? I also thought about all those steel mills back home in Pennsylvania

• 44:19Jocko Willink?

  that had produced practically all that scrap iron originally. Just as the first rays of dawn were creeping into the sky, I felt it was safe to sit up. As I looked around me to ascertain that weird noise and thud was, I saw it just a few inches from where my outstretched feet had been. A bluish-looking chunk of steel about 11 or 12 inches long and about four or five inches thick was lying on the ground. As I said to some of the men near me, "Hey, look at the gift Tojo just sent me." I reached over to pick it up and I quickly released it as if I was bleeding from the tips of all of my fingers. There wasn't a spot on that chunk of Japanese naval shell fragment

• 45:03Jocko Willink?

  that I could touch without snagging my skin on its razor-sharp surface. If it had dropped on any part of me, it would have undoubtedly severed the part completely from my body. It was a miracle that not a single man on my platoon was hurt during the bombardment of hundreds of 5-inch, 6-inch, and 8-inch shells crashing into the ground all around us. That's just... I told you about this before. When people think of shrapnel, they think of little tiny pieces of shrapnel. And when you have a small, if you have a little 60-millimeter mortar or a 40-millimeter grenade that gets shot out of a 203, like what you see in the movies,

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  you know, what's underneath their M16? They'll have a grenade launcher? That's a 40-millimeter grenade. The tiny little fragments from that. 60-millimeter tiny little fragments. You start getting into these 5-inch, 6-inch, 8-inch guns and we got hit with some 120-millimeter mortars. And the freaking... Jagged twelve inch long piece of metal that are a half an inch thick. They're heavy. They're heavy and just like he's describing, they're all just sharp. It's a it's way different than what you think.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:27Jocko Willink?

  And look, any frag can kill you, right? I mean, you get hit with a tiny piece of frag, but it goes into your aorta or cuts one of your veins and you bleed out. Sure, it can be bad or obviously hit you in the in the brain or hit you in the head. But man, you see those big giant piece of frag and I think

• 46:48Jocko Willink?

  Leif had one, Leif's guys had one that landed like next to them. I had one, the first, the first time I saw that, we got mortared. And it killed an army guy. And but I was behind a wall. And but it killed an army guy. Um, but we found frag and that was the first time that I I realized the complete horror of indirect fire and of what those artillery shells and mortar shells do and why they're so devastating.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, and I told you this before, where like shrapnel. When you think shrapnel, you're thinking, oh, you know, like maybe like an empty aluminum can, kind of comparatively speaking, like aluminum cans twisted and kind of ripped up and like kind of thrown at you really, really, really hard. And you're like, got some, you know, flak jacket on, you know, or something like this. You'd be like, okay, you'd be, you know, you might get scratched up for sure. But yeah, you know, I never did anyway, obviously, you know, but yeah, the the reality, especially when you said, um, yeah, sometimes they're like the size of a hammer or something. I'm like dang, and you get, and you consider how powerful those explosions are. It's like, bro, it's like someone literally shooting a hammer at you.

• 48:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's going wildly and it's super hot.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and hot.

• 48:08Jocko Willink?

  It's it's it's it's a nightmare. And you know, I've gotten mortared too with little mortars and they seem real. Real kind of. They sound kinda weak.

• 48:21Jocko Willink?

  Like you can tell, like I'm sixty, even an eighty millimeter mortar, eighty millimeter mortar is legit. Sixty millimeter mortars, it's like a cracking sound more, but a hundred and twenty millimeter mortar, when it hits, it's, it's a massive explosion. It's a shocking explosion, way more than a, than a sixty millimeter. Oh, I, I would have to remember what the explosive weight of the, but it's probably ten times bigger.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Oh damn.

• 48:48Jocko Willink?

  So, it rocks your world.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 48:52Jocko Willink?

  And just imagine these guys, like I'm sitting here talking about three hundred and twenty millimeter mortars hitting outside the wall. Imagine sitting there, no protection, no overhead cover,

• 49:07Jocko Willink?

  for hours, and they're shooting hundreds of these things at you.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:12Jocko Willink?

  That's what these guys are enduring. And by the way, they just showed up. The, the battle's just kicking off. Back to the book, for the next several days, it was foxhole digging and manning the line. Nearly every day, at least one Japanese sniper was shot out of a tree. They would tie themselves in a tree at night and try and pick off Marines during the day, which they did occasionally. Their camouflage was superb, as they were, they were extremely difficult to locate. The enemy planes overhead, were over, overhead almost daily, trying to knock out Henderson Field. At night, enemy warships would slip into Sea Lark Channel and try to do the same thing, and lob a few shells into the front lines for good measure. Each night, the other battle was the ever-present malaria-carrying mosquito.

• 49:54Jocko Willink?

  Then too, at night, every tree seemed to take the shape of an enemy soldier, and the men were quick to challenge. The password was always a word with L's, like Honolulu, which was difficult for the enemy to pronounce distinctly. Even with that, it was dangerous to move around at night. One night, one of my gun crew got up quietly and went back,

• 50:18Jocko Willink?

  went to the back of the line to relieve himself. And as he returned, another man quickly turned around and at point-blank range, fired in the dark, killing the Marine instantly, his best buddy.

• 50:32Jocko Willink?

  He went into shock and had to be taken into the battalion sick bay. I knew there would be an investigation as soon as the report reached headquarters. I was afraid that unfortunate incident might disturb the emotions of the men, thereby jeopardizing our effectiveness as fighters. However, they all accepted it as a twist of fate.

• 50:59Jocko Willink?

  That

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  this is what happens. Guys get freaking scared. They get jumpy. You know, you're talking about every tree turns into an enemy soldier. I've told you about this in Ramadi. Humvees shooting at other Humvees. Think of how crazy that is. The Humvee has the most distinct

• 51:24Jocko Willink?

  vehicle profile of any vehicle. And there would be times where Humvees would shoot at other Humvees because they were just freaking scared and see movement. It's like, oh, and take a couple of seconds and what are you supposed to do?

• 51:42Jocko Willink?

  How, what are you supposed to do now? I see I'm getting shot at by a Humvee. I know. Wait, wait a second. Is that an enemy? Did an enemy get a hold of our Humvee? I don't think so, but they're shooting at us. They're keeping. You see what I'm saying? It's a freaking nightmare.

• 51:56Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. We had air raids practically every day during the rest of the month. Each night, the Japanese observation plane Washing Machine Charlie was overhead buzzing around the perimeter and dropping flares periodically. On the 27th of September, we counted 53 enemy aircraft in the sky over us. The next day, we counted 28 bombers in formation. These raids continued for the rest of the month and for the better part of October. On the 7th of October, instead of a move along the perimeter, we were moving west out toward the Man, the Madanikow River.

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  My machine gun, so now they're on move. My machine gun platoon was assigned the mission of setting up on high commanding ground to lend overhead fire across the Manakow River.

• 52:52Jocko Willink?

  On the 12th of October, again, I'm fast forward. Get this book. Get, just get this book. I haven't said that yet. Get this book. A Marine name match. First person account. On the 12th of October, we were also making our way back to the perimeter. During the movement, we had an air raid which held us up for some time. I was proud of my men. They may have been young in age, but they were all loyal fighting men. I knew I had the best platoon in the Corps. When the situation was critical and our nerves were pretty well taxed, someone would always come up with something to ease the tension. Such as, wonder what all the monkeys in the trees do during a naval bombardment?

• 53:33Jocko Willink?

  Because we're still having a good time.

• 53:36Jocko Willink?

  Get that gallows humor.

• 53:41Jocko Willink?

  We were getting some news from the airstrips and all of it was very disheartening. There were a lot of casualties and our precious fighters and bombers were strewn all over the fields. Later that day, we learned that actually 49 of our planes had been destroyed on the ground.

• 53:56Jocko Willink?

  This was the biggest loss we had suffered since the campaign started on the 7th of August. The Japanese were determined to knock us out as quickly as they could. It was really disheartening the next day as Japanese ships brought their transports into the channel in bright daylight and calmly unloaded their troops and supplies.

• 54:17Jocko Willink?

  What a freaking nightmare. More bad news arrived. Word had been received that Vice Admiral Gormly, commander of the South Pacific area, had proclaimed that due to the extensive damage suffered on our airstrips and the fact that our ships could not come in with additional men and supplies, that the 1st Marine Division would have to fight it out alone as there was no other way.

• 54:42Jocko Willink?

  Like how much ammo do you have? You know what I mean? How much ammo do you have? How much water do you have? Okay, we got some rivers. Okay. How much food do you have? What about overhead protection? What about when the Japanese is coming there? So imagine what a freaking nightmare this is when the word that you get is that your entire support structure is leaving.

• 55:08Jocko Willink?

  Malaria, by the way, malaria was starting to hit my men as it was practically everyone on Guadalcanal. But there was some encouraging and welcoming news that came along the lines. Admiral Gormly had been relieved. The aggressive Vice Admiral William F. Bull Halsey had taken his place. A cheer went up along the lines when it was reported that Halsey's message was, "By God, if the Marines can stay, the Navy will stay." That was enough to lift the spirits of our fighting men. That's what I'm talking about. A coward, by the way, a coward that's gonna just abandon the troops and a man

• 55:52Jocko Willink?

  that steps up and says, "Okay, we're staying. If we're gonna leave the Marines there, we're gonna stay and support them."

• 56:02Jocko Willink?

  During one attack while lying flat in the jungle floor supinely and we were having heavy air attacks that one of my men, William B. Faust, would sit alongside me as the bombs were released by the enemy Japanese bombers flying overhead. I ordered Faust to get in his foxhole during the raids, but he always refused as he wanted to stick by me, as he would tell me. He would sit alongside me and pray for us. This one particular time, I heard a string of bombs coming down. And as my head was flat to the ground, I could feel that with each burst, we were right in the drop pattern. As the explosions came closer, one bomb dropped just to our right

• 56:48Jocko Willink?

  and the next one I was sure would be a direct hit on Faust and me.

• 56:54Jocko Willink?

  He continued his praying out loud. And the next bomb dropped into a soggy part of the jungle a few yards away from us, throwing mud all over us, making a huge crater in the ground.

• 57:09Jocko Willink?

  I told Faust that I attributed our being alive to his fervent prayers. And then joined, and then he joined me in reciting my favorite Psalm, the 121st.

• 57:26Jocko Willink?

  To achieve a level of experience of getting bombed, to where you're making these calculations of, oh, yep, we're in the bomb pattern. Oh, there's one that's, you know, 80 yards that way. Oh, the next one was 60 yards that way. The next one's gonna be, you know it. It's, it's crazy to think that these guys had that much experience of getting bombed.

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  That he's knowing where the next one's gonna land.

• 58:01Jocko Willink?

  Very lucky too that it's hit in mud. Had some guys in Ramadi get ambushed in the middle of a field. Now, only one of the group, like one squad, or actually one element, one fire team was out in the middle because they had to cross this big open area. Left the other element back in the dike to freaking cover for them in case something happened. And sure enough, something happened. But the mortars that they got hit with, they basically all went into the mud and detonated. So it doesn't put out a big, it doesn't put out a frag pattern. You lay down and it's like boom, it's happening six inches down in the mud. So everyone was okay. That's, reminds me of this right here.

• 58:46Jocko Willink?

  On the afternoon of October 24th, a large body of Japanese troops were observed making their way east towards our perimeter. Third Battalion had gone into position several days earlier. It was in, it was in that position that our battalion had been given orders to fill in and tie in with the left flank of Third Battalion. Colonel Haneken had given each of the company commanders their final orders. And we were to stop the enemy at all costs to prevent him from taking our precious airfields, without which there would be little hope for all Americans on Guadalcanal.

• 59:22Jocko Willink?

  Stop the enemy at all costs.

• 59:27Jocko Willink?

  And when you, when you can, when you understand that tactical picture of, oh, wait a second. If they take us off this flank, they're gonna run through us. And they're gonna have the airfield, everyone here is gonna die.

• 59:45Jocko Willink?

  Our job as a heavy machine gun platoon would be to find the best terrain for a final protective line with interlocking bands of grazing fire.

• 1:00:01Jocko Willink?

  We came up to our new position in darkness, the evening of October 24th, going slowly and carefully along the winding trail, carrying all of our heavy water cooled machine guns, ammunition and personal weapons and packs while stumbling on tangled roots. The footing underneath was difficult in the boggy turf, under the umbrella of tall rain forests, lush tropical trees that incessantly drip rain. The ridge on top was kunai grass, but hard as cement underneath. Nobody had the strength left enough to dig himself a foxhole. Before we were able to set up our guns, the drizzle turned into a heavy downpour.

• 1:00:40Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward, I told my men to drop their loads while I made a survey of our new position. I was crossing my fingers, hoping that I didn't wander into an ambush or set off a booby trap. I dropped my gear with the first squad and started out with only my pistol in my hand. I crawled along the ground, groping my way forward by hand. When I reached out and felt the ridge dropping away on all sides, I returned to my men and said we would set up along that knoll. We immediately set up the guns and after the 30 caliber water cooled guns had been in place in their designated positions, I arranged a security watch for the night. We crawled around on that wet ground and I distributed a meager ration of Spam by scooping the meat out of the can with my fingers and dropping each man's portion into his outstretched wet hand.

• 1:01:30Jocko Willink?

  In that black, fast forward, in that black cave of night, the only reality was the rain drenching us and knowledge that somewhere in the jungles around us, other men were waiting to kill us.

• 1:01:44Jocko Willink?

  I felt a very deep sense of responsibility for my men and officers.

• 1:01:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That there's a picture of that a Combrack cameraman took of guys in tasking a Bruiser and they're going down the street. You can see they're in, they're in a staggered file. So there's guys on one side of the street, guys on the other side of the street. And being out there, you're watching that and you're, you're literally waiting for the gunfire to start. It's the

• 1:02:26Jocko Willink?

  this idea of waiting, that there's someone waiting. And when you're in a city, imagine how many places can you get shot? It's the same as a jungle. Like when you're in a jungle, where can you get shot at from?

• 1:02:38Jocko Willink?

  You can get shot at from so many different directions. A jungle is actually a little bit more compressed, right? You can't get, you're not going to get shot. You can't be seen that far away. The SEALs in Vietnam, they'd get, they'd get enemy contacts would be like 20 feet away. And then when they'd move 20 yards, they couldn't see the enemy anymore. They wouldn't even get shot anymore. In some cases, you're in the city, like you could get shot from a window that's 10 yards away. Or a doorway that's 600 yards away. And everything in between those two is a legitimate threat.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's great because you, you pointed that out a while ago where you were like, hey, you know, I work downtown, right? Sitting at the front door outside. And it's like, think of all, every single, single doorway or window that you can see. Every single one that you can see.

• 1:03:28Jocko Willink?

  They can see you.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Don't care if it's 100 meters away. Don't care if it's like 10 meters. Like every single one, that's a potential spot for like an enemy person.

• 1:03:36Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Crazy, man.

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  And Where was I talking about this the other day? The, the timing, you know, there was a, a captain from the army from the first of five oh six. And great guy, so focused, so professional. He had, he would, he would video, he had like a camera set up in his Humvee and it was just a video of the street and he would just watch the video. So he would get to know like where the trash was, where the doorway was, what looked out of place. But the first time I went with him into the city. He's like, oh, we're going to get contacted in 30 minutes. Start your stopwatch. And I was like, okay, cool, you know? And sure enough, 27 minutes in.

• 1:04:22Jocko Willink?

  And it's on. So you know, you're going to get contacted. You know it.

• 1:04:30Jocko Willink?

  Stoners element over in Craigador got contact, got contacted by the enemy. 24 straight missions in a row.

• 1:04:41Jocko Willink?

  24 straight missions in a row.

• 1:04:45Jocko Willink?

  You know, I talked to guys from Vietnam, they'd gotten, again, this was some of the guys in Vietnam, some of the SEALs in Vietnam. They'd be like, yeah, we got in six contacts on all of deployment. Look, some guys were more than that, but some of them were like, that was, that's legit. And here's Stoners, JP's crew out there, freaking 24 straight missions, getting enemy contact. So that feeling that these guys had of like, oh, they're out there waiting to kill us. I would absolutely have that feeling in the streets. I'd absolutely have that feeling.

• 1:05:19Jocko Willink?

  Especially watching my guys. For some reason, I never really felt like much like I would get wounded or killed. And this is, you go back to Dean Ladd. Dean Ladd, who Marine going into Tarawa and he was on the podcast. And unfortunately he passed away, God bless him. But we were talking to him and I'm reading from his book about he's getting ready to go into Tarawa. And I said, you know, were you, were you nervous? Were you scared of getting dying? And he's, oh no, that was going to happen to the other guy. I thought to myself, man, that is such a good young man feeling that I absolutely had. But the feeling, the sickness that you get is watching, you see your guys and you don't want your guys to get hurt. I don't want your guys to get shot. So you're watching the 400

• 1:06:06Jocko Willink?

  Fifty thousand threats that are ahead of you as the platoon's walking down the street?

• 1:06:15Jocko Willink?

  And that's what he's feeling. I felt a very deep sense of responsibility for my men and my officers. As I lay there thinking about them, it was so dark that nothing existed save what could be heard or felt. The predominant emotion was probably loneliness and overwhelming sense of isolation, even though, though I knew I had the best officers and men in the world here with me. I thought about some of the lessons from Sergeant Nagy and Corporal Webb had taught me in boot camp. I thought of all my confrontations in with the Japanese in the Philippines and in China. As much as I dreaded killing, respected the enemy in uniform on the battlefield, as I knew I would be doing the job he was assigned to do, and that was to seek out and destroy his enemy.

• 1:06:55Jocko Willink?

  I knew that what we would be facing at any moment was a case of kill or be killed.

• 1:07:02Jocko Willink?

  At about zero two hundred, fast forward, at about zero two hundred, I was startled into a charged wakefulness by what were unmistakably low mumbling sounds. I woke up PFC Schmitty Smith, and together we strained our ears. A few minutes later, we heard the same sounds again. I was certain I heard a few Japanese words. I knew that exposing our position by opening fire would not be wise, but then neither would be sitting back and letting the Japanese infiltrate the perimeter. They might at any moment, at that moment, already be preparing to charge our lines. I was so relieved that my men were not trigger happy, as was a common thing with so many men. Japanese could be seen everywhere at night. Every limb in a tree took the form of an enemy sniper.

• 1:07:46Jocko Willink?

  Kunai grass took the shape of enemy moving towards you. Marines fired thousands of rounds at shadows. My men were truly hardened professional fighting Marines. I trusted my men and I knew they trusted me as we had worked together for nearly two years as a team. I resolved this matter when I quickly decided to get this over with right now. I still wasn't entirely sure if I was doing the right thing. I pulled the pin from a hand grenade and pitched it over the slope where... We had heard the noise. As soon as my men heard that click, they too followed suit with a cascade of grenades. There were a number of muffled explosions. There were also screams of pain. Bob Smithy and I were pulling pins and letting and quickly letting them over

• 1:08:28Jocko Willink?

  the side, just like the old baseball days. Then silence descended on the knoll and the jungle, and that was the end of it. So, what's interesting about grenades is you, especially at night, you don't know where they came from. So you don't have to give away your position. You can just toss grenades. Just huck a grenade out there.

• 1:08:52Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward. Throughout the daylight hours of October 25th, we tended to our weapons. We waited for some with some apprehend apprehension for night to fall. All that day, the Imperial Japanese Navy sent warships down to shell our installations. There were also numerous dogfights over all over the skies between zeros and our marine grum and wild cats. Let's go. Dave Burke.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Reports at Colonel Hanekins command post indicated a strong Japanese force had engaged the first battalion, 7th Marine, some 2,000 yards south of Henderson Field the night before. That apparently was the main thrust of the Japanese assault mounted by General Masao Maruyama's 2nd Sendai Division, minus the shattered 4th Regiment, a total of perhaps 16,000 men.

• 1:09:43Jocko Willink?

  The division's motto, and he's talking about, so he's talking about this Japanese division. The division's motto was, quote, "Remember that death is lighter than a feather, but that duty is heavier than a mountain."

• 1:09:58Jocko Willink?

  For the Sendai Division, feathers flew in great numbers. The mountain proved too heavy.

• 1:10:06Jocko Willink?

  They were pulled off. They were held off by a determined battalion of Marines under Chesty Puller, with the help of an Army battalion under Lieutenant Colonel Robert Hall.

• 1:10:18Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward while Major Connolly and I had been walking around our front and I casually remarked that I questioned the reason for our present position. He pointed down through the jungles and slopes and said, "Really Mitch? There's hardly anything between here and a straight shot right into Henderson Field. As a matter of fact, even Chesty and the Army wouldn't be aware of it as they are south of the airport." I then realized the real significance of the piece of real estate that we now commanded. I had the greatest respect and admiration for both Colonel Hanekin and Major Connolly as both were my idea of a real Marine officer. Tall, athletic, powerful, lean, tough Marines.

• 1:10:58Jocko Willink?

  I would have gone anywhere with either one as I knew they were leaders and fighters.

• 1:11:11Jocko Willink?

  When darkness fell on October 25th, I knew the Japanese were definitely coming and I knew my orders were that we had to defend our ridge at any cost.

• 1:11:24Jocko Willink?

  I talked with each man, instructing him that we would have 100% watch tonight and to withhold their machine gun fire until they actually saw enemy in front of them.

• 1:11:39Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward and here we go.

• 1:11:43Jocko Willink?

  The bushes rustled and the maddening voices continued their soft mutterings, but still nothing could be seen. Then I dimly sensed a dark figure lurking near Gaston's position. I grabbed a grenade, pulled the pin and held down the lever, ready to throw it. Around me, I could hear the others also pulling pins as we did the night before. We heard the ration cans rattle. They'd set a little indicator, a little early warning system of ration cans on strings.

• 1:12:15Jocko Willink?

  We heard the ration cans rattle and then somebody let out a shriek and instantaneously the battle erupted. Grenades were exploding all over the ridge nose. Japanese rifles and machine guns fired blindly into the night. And the first wave of enemy troops swarmed into our position from the jungle, flanking Gaston's gun. Stansberry was pulling the pins out of his grenades with his teeth and lobbing them down into the slope of the jungle.

• 1:12:45Jocko Willink?

  Lippert was skying them overhead like a baseball pitcher. The tension burst like a balloon and many men found themselves cursing, growling, screaming like banshees. The Japanese were yelling "Banzai!", "Blood for the Emperor!". Stansberry, in spontaneous tribute to President Roosevelt's wife, shouted back "Blood for Eleanor!". The battleground was lit by flashes of machine gun fire, pierced by the arching red patterns of tracer bullets, shaken by the blast of shells laid down no more than thirty yards in front of the ridge by Captain Louis Didda's sixty millimeter mortars. It was a confusing maelstrom, with dark shapes crawling across the ground or swirling in clump knots,

• 1:13:31Jocko Willink?

  struggling men falling on each other with bayonet swords and other violent oaths. After the first volley of American grenades exploded, the wave of Japanese crowding onto the knoll thickened. PFC Charles H. Locke was killed from a burst of enemy machine gun fire.

• 1:13:51Jocko Willink?

  I screamed "Fire machine guns, fire!". And with that, the machine guns opened up, and with them all the rifles and Tommy guns. In the flickering light, I saw a fierce struggle taking place for the number two gun. Several Japanese soldiers were racing towards Lippert, who was kneeling, apparently already hit. I managed to shoot two of them, while the third lowered his bayonet and lunged. Lippert was the smallest man in the platoon, weighing barely a hundred and twenty-five pounds. The Japanese soldier ran him through, the force of the thrust lifting him high in the air. I took careful aim and shot Lippert's killer. Gaston was flat on his back, scrambling away from a Japanese officer

• 1:14:36Jocko Willink?

  who was hacking at him with a two-handed samurai sword and grunting with exertion. Gaston tried desperately to block the samurai sword with a Springfield he had picked up off the ground, apparently Lippert's. One of his legs was badly cut from the blows. The rifle soon splintered. The Japanese officer raised his sword for the killing thrust, and Gaston, with maniac strength, snaked his good leg up and caught the man under the chin with his boondocker, a violent blow that broke the Japanese neck. The attackers ran past Gaston's gun and spread out concentrating their fire on the left flank gun manned by Corporal John Grant, PFC Sam H. Scott, and Willis A. Hinson.

• 1:15:18Jocko Willink?

  Within minutes Scott was killed and Hinson was wounded in the head. Then Joseph A. Palowski was killed. Stansberry, who had been near me, was hit in the shoulder. But the last time I saw him, he was still fighting with his Tommy gun, ferociously shouting, "Charge, charge, blood for Eleanor." Corporal Petty John on the right cried out in anguish. "My gun's jammed, I was too busy to answer his call for help." At the center, we were beating back the seemingly endless wall of Japanese coming up the gentle slope at the front of the position. There were at that point approximately seventy-five enemy soldiers crashing through the platoon, most of them on the left flank, but the main force of the attack had already begun to

• 1:16:03Jocko Willink?

  ebb. The ridge was crowded with fighting men, it seemed. Somehow, I vividly recall putting up my left hand just as the enemy soldier lunged at me with a fixed bayonet. He must have been off balance as the point of the bayonet hit between my little finger and ring finger enough to let me parry it off. And as he went by me, he dropped dead on the ground. The enemy started to melt back down the slope, and almost before they were out of sight, Navy corpsmen began snaking forward to treat the wounded. At Petty John's gun, James "Nobby" McNabb and Michael F. Pat Swanick were badly wounded and had to be moved off the line. Stansberry was still around and didn't want to leave.

• 1:16:48Jocko Willink?

  I crawled over to Petty John's gun. "What's wrong with it?" Petty John said a ruptured cartridge which refused to budge. I said, "Move over," and fumbled with stiff fingers, broke off a nail completely, but somehow pried the slug out with a combination tool, which I felt in the spare parts kit under the tripod. I also changed the belt fed, the belt feed, Paul, which had been damaged in the rough slamming trying to get the round out. Petty John and Faust covered me. Though the first assault had flopped, a number of enemy soldiers had shinied to the top of a tall hardwood trees growing up from the jungle between the platoon and Fox Company's position. From this vantage point, they could direct a punishing plunging fire down in two

• 1:17:31Jocko Willink?

  directions. The men in foxholes along the crest were especially vulnerable. Bob G. John Jock and John W. Price were wounded and helped the back of the line by corpsmen.

• 1:17:45Jocko Willink?

  I was getting ready to feed a new belt of ammunition into Petty John's gun. My left hand felt very slippery, so I rubbed it in the dirt under the tripod of the gun. Then, as I reached up to hold the belt again, I felt a sharp vibration and jab of hot pain in my hand. I fell back momentarily and flapped my arm and stared angrily at the gun, which might have been wrecked by a burst of fire from a Japanese Nambo light machine gun. Almost immediately, a second assault wave came washing over our positions. This attack was more successful than the first. Oliver Hinkley and William R. Dudley were wounded. Hinson, over on the left gun, already wounded, continued to fire until all his supporting

• 1:18:29Jocko Willink?

  rifles were silenced. He then withdrew down around the hill in the rear of George Company, putting the gun out of action before he left as I instructed. The section had been hit hard with mortars and grenades, causing severe shock to all the men, one of them being August P. Marquez. All the men on the spur had been literally blasted off, including Lieutenant Phillips, Bill Payne, and John Grant. In the Fox Company area back toward my left rear, I saw Fox Company men pulling out and disappearing over the crest. I picked up a Springfield and fired a shot at them, yelling for them to hold the line.

• 1:19:13Jocko Willink?

  The Japanese swarmed up that 70-foot cliff in great numbers, armed with three heavy and six light machine guns, a number of Tommy guns, and several knee mortars. I thought, dear God, Major Connolly and his small command post are just over that crest. But here was the only grazing fire I had with my machine gun. So I quickly found Gaston's gun and swung it around towards our own lines, as there was nothing between my gun and the crest but the enemy Japanese soldiers. I fired a full belt of ammunition into the backs of those crouching enemy, praying that they could not get over the crest to the command post.

• 1:19:57Jocko Willink?

  I learned later from Captain Farrell, who's with Colonel Hannigan's command post, that the word was that the enemy had one of Page's fast-firing machine guns, and the rounds were ricocheting over the line into Major Connolly's position. He had also heard reports that all my men had been killed, and in some, and in fact, some had been, some had seen me sprawled out dead on the ground before they left the ridge. I learned later, too, that this information had gotten back to Division Command Post. By 0500, the enemy was all over the spur, and it appeared they were going to roll up the entire battalion front.

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  A second prong of the attack aimed at our front had not fared as well. But my platoon was being decimated. A hail of shrapnel killed Daniel R. Cashman. Stansberry had been pulled back over the hill after being hit again. So, just to kind of break that down a little bit. He's in a forward position, and back over a little crest, over a little ridge line, is the command post. And so the Japanese actually pushed through, and they're heading towards the command post. And so he turns his gun around and has to shoot back towards the command post to kill

• 1:21:21Jocko Willink?

  those Japanese, and there's ricochets going into the command post. The command post, he finds out later, thought that his gun had been captured by the Japanese.

• 1:21:32Jocko Willink?

  This is, I, we, we would do jungle training, especially in the, and so in the nineties, I did jungle training. And this is pre nods, pre night vision. And, but you know what it's like when you're in the dark and all of a sudden there's a flash of light and you lose all your night vision? That's what this is. This is just a scene of total confusion. So now there's enough light, when there's this much fire going on, sometimes you can kind of see a little bit more what's happening. And I think that's the mode that, well, that's definitely the mode that they're getting into where it's almost like there's a strobe light going, but a, you know, a strobe light is a consistent timing. This would be like a random strobe light, but very close together. Cause even the muzzle flash gives, there's a flash of light with each one of those. So you're going to be able to see something.

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  Even when it's 10 feet away, it's going to light up your area. But the confusion and chaos in this situation is, it's, it's going to be total mayhem.

• 1:22:28Jocko Willink?

  I continued to trigger bursts until the barrel began to steam. In front of me was a large pile of dead bodies. I ran around the ridge from gun to gun, trying to keep them firing, but at each emplacement, I found only dead bodies. I knew I must be all alone. As I ran back and forth, I bumped into enemy soldiers who were seemingly dashing about aimlessly in the dark. Apparently they weren't aware, they weren't yet aware that they had almost completely, they had almost complete possession of the knoll. As I scampered around the knoll, I fired someone's Springfield that I happened to pick up. Then somehow I stumbled over into the right flank of George Company. There I found a couple of men I knew named Kelly and Topman.

• 1:23:14Jocko Willink?

  They had a water cooled machine gun. I told them I needed their gun. At the same time, I grabbed it and they took off with me. I said, follow me and ordered several riflemen to fix bayonets and to form a skirmish line back across the ridge. I told the rifleman not to be afraid to use the bayonet. We still had the 1905 16 inch bayonets with the front end sharpened throughout its length and the back edge of five inches from the point.

• 1:23:47Jocko Willink?

  It was by then, not quite as dark as it has been. Soon dawn would break. I knew that once the Japanese realized how much progress they had made, still a third wave of attackers would come up the slope to solidify their hold on the knoll. On the way back, I noticed a movement of Japanese on the ridge just above Major Connolly's position, and which I had raked with grazing fire earlier. I fired Kelly's and Topman's full belt of 250 rounds into that area, and once again the rounds were ricocheting over Connolly's head. But he had no way of knowing that I was doing the firing. He could only surmise that the enemy was now using our machine guns. As we advanced back across the ridge, some of the Japanese began falling back. Several with them however began crawling awkwardly across the knoll

• 1:24:31Jocko Willink?

  with their rifles cradled in their arms. And then I saw with horror that they were headed toward one of my guns, which was now out in the open and unmanned. Galvanized by that threat, I ran for the gun. From the gully area, several Japanese guns spotted me and swiveled to rake me with fire. The snipers in the trees also tried to bring me down, and grenades and mortars burst all around me as I ran to that gun. One of the crawling enemy soldiers saw me coming and he jumped up to race me to the prize. I got there first and jumped into the hole behind the gun. The enemy soldier less than 25 yards away, dropped to the ground and started to open up on me.

• 1:25:16Jocko Willink?

  I turned the gun on the enemy and immediately realized it was not loaded. I quickly scooped up a partial loaded belt lying on the ground, and with fumbling fingers started to load it. Suddenly, a very strange feeling came over me. I tried to desperately reach forward to pull the bolt handle back to load the gun, but I felt as though it was in a vice. Even so, I was completely relaxed and felt as though I was sitting peacefully in a park. I could feel a warm sensation between my chin and Adam's apple. Then all of a sudden, I fell forward over the gun, loaded the gun, and swung it up at the enemy gunner. The precise moment he had fired his full 30-round magazine at me and stopped firing.

• 1:26:03Jocko Willink?

  For days later, I thought about that mystery, and somehow knew that the man above also knew what had happened.

• 1:26:13Jocko Willink?

  I found three more belts of ammunition and quickly fired them into the trees and all along the ridge. I sprayed the terrain with remaining rounds, clearing everything in sight. All the Japanese fire in the area was being aimed at me apparently, and this was the only automatic weapon firing from a forward position. The barrage concentrated on the ridge nose made me feel as if the whole Japanese army was firing at me.

• 1:26:37Jocko Willink?

  I was getting some help from our mortars, controlled by battalion, with the George Company commander, Captain L. W. Martin, observing. These rounds laid on the spur and prevented the enemy to move up, which would have probably enveloped me from the rear. Other than this, I was still alone, as my George Company friends were still behind me some distance. In addition to being in this position, I had an immediate need of more ammunition, and I couldn't see any more lying around, anywhere.

• 1:27:09Jocko Willink?

  Just at that time, aid came that made me glow with pride. Three of my men, from my platoon, voluntarily crossed the field of fire to resupply me.

• 1:27:22Jocko Willink?

  The first one came up, and just as he reached me, he fell with a bullet in the stomach. Another one rushed in then, and was hit in the groin just as he reached me too. He fell against me, knocking me away from the gun. Seconds later, Bob John Jock, who had also been wounded earlier, came from somewhere with more ammunition. Just as he jumped down beside me to help load the gun, I saw a piece of flesh fly off his neck. He'd been hit by an enemy bullet. I told him to get back while I sprayed the area. He refused to leave. I said, "Get the hell back, John Jock," and he said again, "No, I'm staying with you." I hated to do it, but I punched him on the chin hard enough to bowl him over, and convinced

• 1:28:06Jocko Willink?

  him, finally, that I wanted my order obeyed. He somehow made his way back, as I was afraid he would bleed to death.

• 1:28:16Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, Major Connolly at the forward command post was rounding up a ragtag force with which to retake the Fox Company spur. They were bandsmen, serving as stretcher bearers, wiremen, runners, cooks, and even mess boys, who had brought some hot food up to the front lines during the night and stayed just in case. Those men, numbering no more than 24, mounted a counterattack up over the crest that I fired some 500 rounds at. That I had fired some 500 rounds at. They found the Japanese machine guns and several of Fox Company's weapons, including three light machine guns, all in good working order. That counterattack, that counterattack found 98 dead on the spur by actual count.

• 1:29:02Jocko Willink?

  That was about 5:30 or so, dawn was already breaking. I was able to observe the progress of that charge from my position as I directly, as I was directly out to their front. I also watched quite a few enemy soldiers scrambling back into the jungle, but I couldn't fire in that direction. As I watched that beautiful charge, it gave me inspiration to get up and yell to my George Company fighters with their fixed bayonets to stand by to charge.

• 1:29:30Jocko Willink?

  I yelled out in Japanese to stand up.

• 1:29:36Jocko Willink?

  Tate, Tate.

• 1:29:39Jocko Willink?

  Hurry. Esoge, esoge, or isoga, esoga. Immediately, a large group of Japanese soldiers, about 30 in all, popped up into view. So he yells out in Japanese, "Hey, stand up, hurry."

• 1:29:55Jocko Willink?

  Immediately, a large group of Japanese soldiers, about 30 in all, popped up into view. One of them looked quizzically at me through field glasses. I triggered a long burst and they just peeled off like grass under a mowing machine.

• 1:30:07Jocko Willink?

  At that point, I turned around to tell my friends I was going to charge over that knoll. And I said, "I want every one of you to be right behind me," and they were.

• 1:30:17Jocko Willink?

  I threw the two remaining belts of ammunition that my men had brought me over my shoulder, unclamped the heavy machine gun from the tripod, and cradled it in my arms.

• 1:30:30Jocko Willink?

  I really didn't notice the weight, which was a total of about eighty pounds, and was no more aware that the water jacket of my gun was red hot. I fed one of the belts into the gun and started forward, down the slope, scrambling to keep my foot, spraying a raking fire all about me.

• 1:30:50Jocko Willink?

  There were still a number of live enemy soldiers on the hillside in the tall grass, pressed against the slope. I must have taken them by surprise as the gun cut them all down. One of them noticed, one of them I noticed, was a field grade officer, who had just expended the rounds in his revolver and was reaching for his two-handed sword. He was no more than four or five feet from me when I ran into him head-on.

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  The skirmishers, the skirmishers followed me over the rim of the knoll, and they too were all fired up and were giving the rebel yell, shrieking and catcalling like little boys imitating Marines, sounding like there, there were a thousand rather than a mere handful. They followed me all the way across the draw with fixed bayonets to the end of the jungle, where long hours before the Japanese attacks had started.

• 1:31:45Jocko Willink?

  There, we found nothing left to shoot at.

• 1:31:50Jocko Willink?

  The battle was over.

• 1:31:53Jocko Willink?

  The jungle was once again so still, that if it wasn't for the evidence of dead bodies, the agony and torment of the previous hours, the bursting terror of the artillery and mortar rounds, and the many thousands of rounds of ammunition fired,

• 1:32:08Jocko Willink?

  it might only have been a bad dream of awful death.

• 1:32:17Jocko Willink?

  There were hundreds of enemy dead in the grass, on the ridge, in the draw, and in the edge of the jungle. We dragged as many as we could into the jungle out of the sun. We buried many and even blasted some of the ridge over them to prevent the smell that only a dead body can expel in the heat.

• 1:32:41Jocko Willink?

  The next day, I'm fast forwarding. The next day, Chesty Puller came up to see me.

• 1:32:52Jocko Willink?

  He sat down beside me after we shook hands and he told me about the big attack they had down at the airport on the night of the 24th. He also told me that he had just seen Colonel Hannekin at the division command post before he came to visit with me.

• 1:33:10Jocko Willink?

  He told me that he read a report that Colonel Hannekin was preparing recommending me for a medal.

• 1:33:17Jocko Willink?

  He said when he returned to the command post, he was also going to prepare a report for one of his sergeants recommending him for a medal.

• 1:33:26Jocko Willink?

  Chesty went on to tell me that this sergeant was also a machine gunner and that our actions were similar.

• 1:33:35Jocko Willink?

  I said, "Wonderful. Is this sergeant someone I may know?" He said, "I don't know, but his name is Basilone." I said, "Johnny Basilone?" And he said, "Yes."

• 1:33:51Jocko Willink?

  I had made platoon sergeant just before we left the States and I told Chesty that I had recently seen Johnny. And we were moving positions and I had asked him when he expected to make platoon sergeant. And he said soon he had hoped. I told Chesty that I hoped this would help Johnny get promoted to platoon sergeant. I had met Johnny originally back in New River, North Carolina, just after he had joined the 1st Battalion 7th Marines. He told me he was better known as Manila John. And then I said, "He must have been in the Philippines." And we had a lot to talk about as I told him I had been stationed there for some time. Johnny had been in the Army and I was stationed in Manila, thus the name Manila John.

• 1:34:38Jocko Willink?

  We had a friendly greeting.

• 1:34:41Jocko Willink?

  When I would call him Doggy Manila John and he would jokingly call me Kavit Mitch.

• 1:34:49Jocko Willink?

  Chesty was admired by all enlisted men and while we were sitting there on the ground, Price, who'd been shot through the face, though not very seriously, was very anxious to meet him. Price had bled so profusely, it was difficult to determine how serious his wound had been when he was hit.

• 1:35:07Jocko Willink?

  And in the event, he was patched up now and was most anxious to say hello to that great jungle fighter, Chesty Puller.

• 1:35:18Jocko Willink?

  Chesty shook hands with him and offered him some pipe tobacco, the only thing he had at the time. Naturally, a kind gesture and Price had refused because he didn't have a pipe. However, he had never forgotten that visit with Chesty. The veteran of Nicaragua and other jungle battles. Two years later, PFC John W. Price was killed in action.

• 1:35:53Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward here. Cause that's the thing, it's not over.

• 1:35:58Jocko Willink?

  Like you get through all that and, and by the way, like what part of that do you actually live through? Almost none, almost nothing that happened do you get to live through?

• 1:36:12Jocko Willink?

  But guess what? Doesn't matter. Fight's still on.

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, now that the enemy's back had been broken, at least temporarily, General Vandergriff believed it would be opportune time to continue the attack.

• 1:36:25Jocko Willink?

  So instead of going west, we would leave the Lunga River area to which we had just returned from our battle ridge to a new front. Everyone said, oh boy, here we go again. You go through all that, get back into perimeter, fast forward to pass, but they're out on that ridge line. They, they win that, that fight. Great cost, massive casualties.

• 1:36:47Jocko Willink?

  And then they pull back into perimeter. Now they get back in perimeter like, oh yeah, you're moving west, you're moving out. And everyone said, oh boy, here we go again. The next morning, we started out on a forced march across the rivers and along trails near the beach. Fox Company, the rifle company I was attached to, was giving the extreme right flank, the furthest away from the perimeter. My platoon was a bunch of patched up Marines with some replacements.

• 1:37:14Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. I left the extreme right flank open so that a particular gun could fire into the jungle behind it, up the beach or out to sea. I got behind the next gun and placed a bayonet in the sand against the water jacket at the point where it could fire up the beach, just clearing left shoulder of the gunner of the first gun. I did the same thing with each of the other guns, so that in fact, we would be in echelon with each gun being able to fire just to the left of the gun in front of it. Everybody knew the plan and the limitations of traverse for the gun. This is just interlocking fields of fire.

• 1:37:46Jocko Willink?

  We knew the enemy had moved east about a half mile from us, and in all probability, some might just wander down the beach. As we had suspected, suspected, just after daybreak, we spotted some enemy troops moving out to the water's edge. It appeared that they were going to hike down the beach towards us in formation. We could hardly believe it, because this was truly a machine gunner's dream. Perfect grazing fire at troops in formation.

• 1:38:12Jocko Willink?

  As we were crouched there in anxiety, waiting for a large unit to start down the beach right into our guns, as surely they were preparing to do, as evidenced by their movements, a single crack of Springfield rifle went off some distance down the beach behind us. The round went up the beach, over our heads. Some knucklehead riflemen just couldn't wait.

• 1:38:34Jocko Willink?

  As the enemy started to scatter, all my machine guns opened up and not a single enemy soldier made it back to the jungle.

• 1:38:46Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit, the attack continued across the Metapona River, and we were gradually bottling up the enemy. Chesty had been hit that day with a grenade that landed near him, causing multiple fragmentation wounds in his legs, but he did not leave the lines until the next day. By dusk of the 8th, we had the enemy between us, and it was only a matter of cleaning them up. As we closed the knot tighter, some of the enemy escaped through a gap in the army line, but the rest were cleaned out. On the 9th and 10th, the final push was made, and the area was secured for all intents and purposes as the enemy had either been killed and those who managed to escape would find it difficult in the days to come

• 1:39:29Jocko Willink?

  as we were definitely on the offensive. On the 11th, we started back toward the perimeter. Our casualties during the period since we watched the enemy land on the 1st was 21 killed and 61 wounded. We had taken considerable enemy supplies, mostly rice and ammunition. That night was a nightmare. As the Japanese fleet came in and blasted the airports and all the ridges around it, including Edson's Ridge where we were dug in. In my opinion, the most frightening thing in combat is to be on the receiving end of naval gunfire. Artillery is the same when massed.

• 1:40:12Jocko Willink?

  Every time one of those naval shells came crashing into the island, trees were uprooted and the earth shook like an earthquake. This was particularly evident on Edson's Ridge, which was in line for anything that was fired over Henderson Field. Henderson Field. Our positions felt like we were on Jell-O as the ground literally rolled with each crashing shell. Twice that night, Sergeant Bill Payne and I were completely lifted out of our holes and flopped on the ground. It was just like being lifted into some dirt by a bulldozer blade. A very eerie feeling indeed.

• 1:40:56Jocko Willink?

  We continued to move periodically from one position to another. This is fast forward. More and more army troops were arriving to take our positions in the lines. The patrols were penetrating deeper, seeking out the enemy. It was getting a little quieter around the perimeter as the days went by. However, enemy ships continued to sneak in at night and lob a few shells at Henderson Field and our lines. We still had air attacks, but our valiant Cactus Air Force was shooting the enemy planes out of the skies with great numbers. We had Grumman Wildcats, the Dauntless Dive Bombers, the Avenger Torpedo Bombers, and the Air Cobras at Henderson Field. Cactus was Guadalcanal's code name. The real heroes of all the gravel crunchers, the infantrymen,

• 1:41:39Jocko Willink?

  and the cannon cockers, the artillerymen and the mortar men, were those fabulous Marine Corps pilots like Lieutenant Colonel Howard W. Bauer, Major Marion Carl, Captain Joe Foss, Major Bob Gayler, and Major John L. Smith.

• 1:41:59Jocko Willink?

  We would stand on the ground and cheer them,

• 1:42:03Jocko Willink?

  cheer them on, as they shot the cream of the crop of the Japanese fighter and bomber pilots out of the skies over Guadalcanal each day. At times, we had seen Marion, or Joe, or John dive into a pack of enemy planes. In almost every instance, they were outnumbered by fifteen to ten to fifteen to one. Yet they could be seen buzzing around like bumblebees, looping and diving and pressing the attack to keep the enemy fighters from hitting us on the ground. We had seen Carl Foss, Gayler, and Smith get shot down and have to bail out of their burning planes as we watched the air battles. Bauer was shot down over the water and was never recovered.

• 1:42:44Jocko Willink?

  Bauer, Gayler, Foss, and Smith were all awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, and Carl was awarded the Navy Cross. Joe Foss became America's Ace of Aces after he shot down his 26th enemy plane, beating Captain Eddie Rickenbacker's 1918 record of 25 enemy planes shot down.

• 1:43:12Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit.

• 1:43:17Jocko Willink?

  Things are starting to mellow out a little here. Each day we cleaned our machine guns, had gun drill, and helped Lieutenant Tom Myers get snapped in with us. We went on short patrols around the perimeter. Obviously, the rainy season had set in, and it was raining nearly every day as Christmas had come and gone. And we were now standing by to leave the island too.

• 1:43:38Jocko Willink?

  The first Marines had left shortly after the 5th had departed.

• 1:43:44Jocko Willink?

  On the 5th of January, 1943, our 7th Marines went aboard the USS Rachel Jackson, and the 2nd Battalion was on its way to Melbourne, Australia, where the rest of the division was located.

• 1:44:09Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 1:44:13Jocko Willink?

  That's...

• 1:44:15Jocko Willink?

  You might think that that's kind of the end of the book, and it's what I'm gonna read right now, but... You know, this guy's been through hell, obviously. All of this guy's been through hell, and so... It must be over, but it's not over.

• 1:44:30Jocko Willink?

  He... Mitchell Paige ends up getting commissioned. He ends up being awarded the Medal of Honor. So it's him and Bazey. Him and John Basilone. Machine gunners.

• 1:44:44Jocko Willink?

  So he ends up being awarded the Medal of Honor while he's in Australia. And... Ends up... Being in Australia, training his Marines. Getting them ready, getting them prepared.

• 1:44:57Jocko Willink?

  And eventually, the 1st Marine Division... He was with them when they joined the 6th Army for the attack on Cape Gloucester, where he saw more combat.

• 1:45:11Jocko Willink?

  And then finally, in July of nineteen forty-four, and he, there's so many good details in the book. There's details about Gloucester, just get the book.

• 1:45:21Jocko Willink?

  But he also, I, there's like, he's got a malaria, just, you ever known anyone that got malaria?

• 1:45:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:29Jocko Willink?

  It's terrible. But like, did you watch them get it?

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:45:32Jocko Willink?

  So they just had it?

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he told me, told us about it.

• 1:45:35Jocko Willink?

  It's horrible. One of my buddies got it. He got it in Africa, we were in Africa. I felt bad too, because he was trying to do the right thing. And he was taking his malaria pills all the time and he, when we got to Africa, there was, uh, we were on a ship. And they offered a trip to go climb Mount Kilimanjaro. And that was like the mature, smart thing to do, right? The other alternative was to go to,

• 1:46:08Jocko Willink?

  I believe it was called the White Sands Hotel.

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, the club.

• 1:46:12Jocko Willink?

  No, it was a whole, it was a whole resort town.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:15Jocko Willink?

  We were in Kenya. Yeah, we were in Kenya. This is in the nineties, right? So we're in Kenya and we end up, you know, I'm like, oh yeah, no, we're gonna go party at the White Sands Hotel. So he, so by the way, so we go out partying, I, you know, we're drinking and partying. I remember waking up like passed out, I was outside. Mosquitoes are just feasting on me.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  That's when you know.

• 1:46:40Jocko Willink?

  I'm by a swamp, bro, I'm by like a, you know, the White Sands Hotel had like, uh, you know, there's white sands, obviously a nice, beautiful beach and, and these are really nice hotels. And the, it had like little water features.

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:57Jocko Willink?

  But they were kind of more like swamp features. I, I wake up, I'm by one of those things, just no shirt, pair of shorts, flip flops and just mosquitoes feasting on me.

• 1:47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:09Jocko Willink?

  By the way, I hadn't taken any malaria pills in five days or whatever, right? Meanwhile, my buddy took all his malaria pills, goes and does the right thing, you know, does something a mature human would do, not an idiot. We come back to the ship. He gets malaria and he was down hard. Yeah. How long does it take malaria to pass or like how long do you have it? I don't remember. Well, the thing is it apparently it stays with you. It's kind of like a Lyme disease like that kind of thing where it stays with you. Oh, that's good. And it makes it easier for you to get heat casualties and stuff like that, but.

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, and this guy was like one of my best friends actually. So how was I felt really bad. Uh, so. So Mitchell Paige, he had malaria. He's fighting it. Uh, and by the way, you know, when my buddy got malaria, we're on the ship. So he got, you know, went into sick bay and he's getting water and he's in an air conditioned space and. Dude, this, these guys have malaria in the middle of the freaking jungle while people are trying to kill them. So there's that whole thing in there. But eventually, like I said, he is sent back to America when he spends a little bit of time. Serving out in the Marine Corps, then he gets moved into inactive reserve. Then the Korean War comes up.

• 1:48:26Jocko Willink?

  He gets recalled. So now he's back on active duty, but what he did during the Korean War, we spent his time training the officers and enlisted guys and. Ended up writing, he retired from the Marine Corps in 1959, wrote this book in 1975. Or that would, that's when it was published. He had a G I Joe action figure.

• 1:48:48Jocko Willink?

  Which was him carrying that 30 caliber water cold machine gun, which like he says is 80 pounds. So you know, you see an M 60, you see Rambo's M 60. Hell yeah. Like 25 pounds or something like that. Maybe I think the modern ones were like 17. So the one he had the one with the long, but it's probably 25 pounds. But a big water cooled crew served machine gun. This thing is huge. 80 pounds. Same thing that Baz used. But they, that's what the G I Joe doll has. Yeah, it's legit. Yeah. Mitch Page. It's not a doll to that. And it comes with, um, uh, sorry, action figure comes with a little miniature Medal of Honor. Oh dang, okay. So he did that and, um, died in his home.

• 1:49:31Jocko Willink?

  November 15th, 2003 is buried in Riverside National Cemetery in Riverside, California.

• 1:49:40Jocko Willink?

  And just another to me.

• 1:49:44Jocko Willink?

  Example. Of what we. As human beings can be capable of.

• 1:49:52Jocko Willink?

  Right? What we can be capable of possibly.

• 1:49:59Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 1:50:02Jocko Willink?

  Importantly, the sacrifices that were made. Just Guadalcanal alone.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  Just Guadalcanal alone, 29 ships lost.

• 1:50:14Jocko Willink?

  Including two carriers. Six heavy cruisers, two light cruisers, 17 destroyers.

• 1:50:22Jocko Willink?

  7100 killed, 7700 wounded.

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  That's one battle, by the way. This is an extreme battle.

• 1:50:33Jocko Willink?

  But. These are heroes.

• 1:50:39Jocko Willink?

  Mitchell Paige.

• 1:50:42Jocko Willink?

  These troops go out there, sacrifice for each other. And sacrifice for us.

• 1:50:52Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 1:50:55Jocko Willink?

  We need to make sure that we live our lives. In a way that honors these heroes. The ones that made it home.

• 1:51:04Jocko Willink?

  Like Mitchell Paige.

• 1:51:08Jocko Willink?

  And of course, the ones that didn't.

• 1:51:20Jocko Willink?

  So. There we go, Echo Charles. Fantastic book. Get the book.

• 1:51:29Jocko Willink?

  More just. Marine Corps.

• 1:51:33Jocko Willink?

  Marine Corps history.

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 1:51:35Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Again, a lot of these, a lot of these, yet another time where, you know, I watch a lot of movies. You know that. And you know, you see a movie character who does all this. So it's not realistic. You know, like, but hey, we enjoy the show, you know, we're gonna keep it moving and yeah, the show ends. It's all good, but this is like, this is an actual character in real life, doing real stuff. And a lot of times kind of more crazy than most of the movies I'm even thinking of right now.

• 1:52:00Jocko Willink?

  This would seem definitely far fetched.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:03Jocko Willink?

  If you watch this in a movie, if you watch him like racing a Japanese soldier.

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:08Jocko Willink?

  To his gun that's abandoned to get that thing. While there's mortars, grenades and machine gun and sniper fire trying to take him out. Like, what does that scene look like in a movie? You go, come on.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, fun, fun, fun. Love it. But yeah, that's not, that's not.

• 1:52:26Jocko Willink?

  You're not feeling like this is, you know, we're hyped for it. It's an action movie or whatever.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  All day. Yeah.

• 1:52:31Jocko Willink?

  But you don't think it's realistic.

• 1:52:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:35Jocko Willink?

  Here you go.

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  It's realistic.

• 1:52:36Jocko Willink?

  Mitchell Paige said what?

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  Yo, he sure did.

• 1:52:42Jocko Willink?

  So, Semper Fi out there, Devil Dogs.

• 1:52:46Jocko Willink?

  Hey, let's do our best. Let's live our lives right. Let's be better people. You know, you once informed us.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:52:57Jocko Willink?

  That one of the best things we can do to be better people is to get after it.

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  Get after it.

• 1:53:03Jocko Willink?

  Physically.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Physically, yes, exercise. And I've narrowed it down even more, by the way, recently into resistance training.

• 1:53:12Jocko Willink?

  What about the cardio training?

• 1:53:13Speaker 01

  Cardio, we love, we love metcons, we love cardio, we love the whole deal, you know? But if you wanna, I'll put it this way, and I'm saying this kind of currently, this is how I'm currently feeling. If you're gonna prioritize, I say resistance training, priority. I say all of it, just like you with the martial arts.

• 1:53:29Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  Bro, do everything you can.

• 1:53:32Jocko Willink?

  Yep. What's interesting is a lot of people that we know are advocating the same thing. Everybody from Gabriel, Dr. Gabriel Lyon, right? Andrew Huberman.

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:53:44Jocko Willink?

  Peter Attia. They're all talking about lifting. Look, they don't call lifting. What do they call it?

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  Resistance.

• 1:53:50Jocko Willink?

  Right, right, right. What do we call it?

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  A lift.

• 1:53:52Jocko Willink?

  All day, all day. And just the importance of muscle mass.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:58Jocko Willink?

  Being strong, which is weird because you remember the old days? People would talk about, look, if you wanted to, if you were pure longevity, it would be like, do as little as possible, be as small as possible, be as kind of have at least, don't eat a lot.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Stay out of the sun.

• 1:54:14Jocko Willink?

  Stay out of the sun. Like there was all these things that you could do for longevity. And it certainly seems like the tide is shifting and maybe it's, maybe it's not just what, uh, what Peter Tia calls not just long, not just length, but health span, right? Not just lifespan, but health span. Like I want to be healthy.

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:33Jocko Willink?

  So in order to do that, guess what we're doing? Are we doing resistance training? We are, but we call it lifting.

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  Lifting. Oh yeah, we're lifting. It's true. Bro, whatever. I used to make jokes all the time.

• 1:54:43Jocko Willink?

  Do you lift, bro?

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. I used to tell you, actually I didn't, it wasn't a joke. I was serious, but it sounded like a joke because of how kind of ridiculous it sounds. But when I get reminded about, hey, I'm so glad that I like lift weights is like, one of the main ones is like, you know, you know, the water coolers, you know, those big jugs, the five gallon, you gotta change out the water cooler. Every time I change one of those out, you gotta lift it in this awkward way or whatever. And I'm like, I'm, this could be really hard for a lot of people.

• 1:55:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I bet it is.

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  But it's not that hard for me because I lift. See what I'm saying?

• 1:55:13Jocko Willink?

  Cause you do resistance training?

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  Hell yeah, resistance training all day. What I'm saying is look, that's one of the many, I would say millions, millions of scenarios where being trained in resistance training and other stuff is gonna, is gonna yield the benefits. See what I'm saying? But to me it goes for, and that's not to mention the psychological, emotional, hormonal, cellular benefits you're gonna get from it as well. Okay, keep going to whole thing. Not gonna. You get it.

• 1:55:41Jocko Willink?

  Discipline.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  Discipline all day. Here's, here's the thing too. And I think a lot of people were into lifting, feel the same way, like lifting weights. I never really felt that it took that much discipline, only because you know, okay.

• 1:55:55Jocko Willink?

  Cause you like it.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  Yes. And here's what it is. This is, and especially as a, as a male, I guess I can only speak for male because I'm not a female. But when I first got into like lifting weights, it was like pushups first and then lifting weights. And you know how like it gives you like this pump, right? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:10Jocko Willink?

  We are from that.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  So when you're a kid, you think that's your muscles actually growing from the lifting.

• 1:56:16Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  And I'm like, bro, this is freaking awesome.

• 1:56:18Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna be Arnold in freaking three weeks.

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  Tomorrow. Exactly. Right. So like it hooks you like that and it hooks you. Then you realize, wait a second, this is just like a temporary thing, but yeah, I could just keep this thing going.

• 1:56:29Jocko Willink?

  Can you remember that? You know, when you start lifting, when someone starts lifting and they get stronger like fast. Do you actually remember that happening to you?

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, I do. It's called newbie gains.

• 1:56:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, newbie gains. I didn't know he had a name for it.

• 1:56:45Speaker 01

  There is a name for it called newbie gains. And the, and yeah, it was, but I started like lifting on an actual like lifting program. Not the kind of like, oh, there's a dumbbell. Let's do some curls. Like actual program was with my family friend, my friend Eric Masters, who became a pilot, by the way. Air Force all day.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  With his dad and he was a football coach and he was a sports coach. And it was like, yeah, we were like, what 15, 15 years old, you know?

• 1:57:13Jocko Willink?

  Testosterone.

• 1:57:14Speaker 01

  Ready to roll.

• 1:57:15Jocko Willink?

  In the game.

• 1:57:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And I, and I had been doing pushups for a few years secretly in the bathroom with no one looking.

• 1:57:21Jocko Willink?

  Did you, could you tell that you were more jacked than your brother?

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  I wasn't more jacked. Oh, yeah, yeah. My chest was more developed. Yes.

• 1:57:26Jocko Willink?

  That's the only exercise you were doing in secret?

• 1:57:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, some calf raises.

• 1:57:34Jocko Willink?

  JP's into the calf raises. You know that, right?

• 1:57:37Speaker 01

  Oh, for real?

• 1:57:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. JP, you gotta watch out, dude. He'll be, he'll be on those calf raises.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Well, freaking, that makes sense. You ever seen his freaking legs? They're huge.

• 1:57:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:43Speaker 01

  So that makes sense to me completely. And freaking calf raises. Hell, yeah, all day. Well, now I understand like it does, that part doesn't matter as much as like ankle mobility and stuff. Like, so you know, I do kettlebells and stuff and what I did, and it's more than just calf raises. It's like you gotta stretch them and then you do that. I do that every once a week or something like that. Probably it helps.

• 1:58:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. I came home from deployment and I roll, so you know, JP, this is when I was on deployment with JP. And I think I'm probably 10 years older than JP. Something like that. And then his dad is 10 years older than me. And you roll with JP before, right?

• 1:58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, plenty of times.

• 1:58:21Jocko Willink?

  You know JP's strong.

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:58:23Jocko Willink?

  Right? Real strong. I rolled with his dad and his dad like doesn't really didn't really know jujitsu, but he knew some, you know, kind of. But as soon as I like tied up with him, I was like, oh, this is, this is like, you could see where JP and JP was JP was, he didn't have his. Quite frankly, JP didn't have his full man strength yet. He was 21 or something, you know, he was strong, but he's way stronger now. But his dad, I was like, oh, I could see where JP was gonna go. Yeah, strength wise, just by rolling with his dad.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you felt the DNA.

• 1:58:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the DNA, the fast twitch DNA, like JP sprinting.

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:00Jocko Willink?

  JP sprinting back in the day, he just had fast, fast, like holding his mark 46 machine gun to sprinting.

• 1:59:10Jocko Willink?

  Fast twitch and his dad, his dad just same thing, just pure fast twitch and his dad, you know, work in construction. He's just a strong dude, but you can, you can sense those genes. So my question is, you're doing pushups.

• 1:59:24Jocko Willink?

  And calf raises.

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:59:26Jocko Willink?

  Where your calves and your chest was bigger than Jay Charles.

• 1:59:29Speaker 01

  I don't know if my calves were or not. I don't know how effective the calf raise scenario was, but. Yeah, chest was more, more developed. And then when we started lifting, I could bench more like a big eight for sure. Actually, let's, let's face it, I always could.

• 1:59:43Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's because you were sneaking to those pushups.

• 1:59:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, you gotta get the foundation.

• 1:59:47Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys share a room?

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:48Jocko Willink?

  So you had to sneak him in the bathroom?

• 1:59:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:50Jocko Willink?

  You were literally sneaking them so he didn't know that you were getting stronger.

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there's more to it because he, we would tease each other too. It's like, ooh, trying to get all buff, you know? So there was like this, I don't know. It was like, almost like a, for lack of a better term, like embarrassing to be like working out. Until that's what the football team was doing. That's what the team was doing, you know, that's what we're all doing. But like on our own, it was, we weren't mature enough, I guess, to, to start just self-developing, you know?

• 2:00:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So you start now officially lifting. And you, you get to watch kind of the, the situation go down.

• 2:00:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Like you get to watch the newbie gains.

• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. You get strong because a lot of it, it has to do with, well, obviously adapting because that's what muscle and strength and stuff is. There's that big part of it because your body's like ready, it's ready to take some action, do some stuff, you know, taking nutrients, your young, all that stuff. And then so the adaption happens like way quicker. It doesn't get used to it overall. All right. So that's, that's the, in a nutshell. Um, but then on top of it too, you have balance as well. So like holding weights up. You ever seen someone who's never lifted weights before, especially with like dumbbells or something? It's like, oh, they're all over the place.

• 2:00:53Jocko Willink?

  Or do ring dips, ring dips with, on rings instead of on a dip bar?

• 2:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:58Jocko Willink?

  They're all, sometimes people, sometimes someone that could do 25 dips, which is, which is a good amount of dips on a dip bar.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:08Jocko Willink?

  They can do like five and they're all.

• 2:01:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's a big part of the newbie gains is the balance is being developed. And once you got your balance down, you're, then your strength can, can start kicking in, even just from the baseline, you know? So even that seems like you're getting way stronger, but more than actual muscle, like contractile strength or whatever it's balance. So anyway, that's all, these are all contributing factors to the newbie gains.

• 2:01:33Jocko Willink?

  So we're lifting.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  We're lifting big time. Newbie gains or regular gains or whatever.

• 2:01:39Jocko Willink?

  What you gotta, the, the other end of the spectrum of newbie gains is plateau. Plateau slash decay.

• 2:01:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Cause let's say you're not real excited anymore because you're not getting newbie gains. So you're like, well, kind of want, want, don't want to do this anymore. Then you get loss.

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:56Jocko Willink?

  I don't know who is, I don't know what loss it is, but you get a loss. You're like, oh, wow, I'm weak.

• 2:02:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:02:02Jocko Willink?

  Don't let that happen. That's what you gotta watch out for.

• 2:02:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:04Jocko Willink?

  At the Arnold's and I was interviewing Arnold and I asked him about plateaus.

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:13Jocko Willink?

  And he was like, well, we'd shock our system. Remember that?

• 2:02:15Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 2:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever read a book called Way of the Warrior Kid?

• 2:02:19Speaker 01

  I have.

• 2:02:19Jocko Willink?

  And in that book. Young Mark, he's trying to do more pull-ups and he plateaus at like seven. And he can't eat seven, seven, seven, he's there. And finally, what we know what Uncle Jake makes him do? Yeah, you're gonna do a hundred pull-ups today. I don't care how long it takes. It just like shocks the system.

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:40Jocko Willink?

  Next time he rolls out, does nine.

• 2:02:43Jocko Willink?

  So you wanna get through those plateaus, man? Throw a little shock into this. How about the muscle confusion?

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what that is.

• 2:02:50Jocko Willink?

  No, but are you down with the muscle confusion?

• 2:02:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. Um, no, I mean, not, there's such, uh, I think sometimes, and obviously there's a lot to this, but sometimes people will take it kind of too far. So they're doing something different every week or something like that, which, you know, that's the thing. Like you can do that for, you know, but it's not necessarily if that's the only issue that you're trying to address. Yeah, you can do, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, depends on who you are and how long you've been training, but you can do it like four weeks, same stuff. Eight weeks, same thing, and then change up the exercise. And a lot of times you don't have to change up the exercise. Change up the weight, the reps, the rest in between, the volume, like there's little, just little things you can change that your body's like, whoa, okay. And then, you know, and actually I've found a lot of the times, a lot of times you just implement some good rest in there and then just one small change.

• 2:03:37Speaker 01

  It's like your body can adapt to it because it's kind of close enough to your normal thing that your body's like, oh, this isn't like some foreign thing that we've got to spend a lot of resources and time to adapt to. So it can adapt and adapts pretty quick, you know? You get that little jump. That's what I found.

• 2:03:51Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Now, we need to lift. I'm gonna recommend you also do something that gets your metabolic system moving, right? Some type of metcon, some sprints, some kettlebell swings, some burpees. That's what we're doing. Jiu-Jitsu, yep, all day. That's what we're doing. You're gonna need fuel as well. I, I, I recommend you try and use some clean fuel. I recommend you try and use some Jaco fuel. Go to Jacofuel.com, go to Jacofuel.com. You guys know what we're making. We're making energy drinks. We're making protein. We got hydrate, we got greens. We got the joint supplement, joint warfare, super krill. Time war, by the way, take time war. Take, take these things. Take them.

• 2:04:38Jocko Willink?

  You'll be very happy that you did and your taste buds will be happy that you did.

• 2:04:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:04:43Jocko Willink?

  They'll be very happy.

• 2:04:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:45Jocko Willink?

  So that's what we're doing. Go to Jaco Fuel.com, go to Wawa and get Molk. Molk is in Wawa. Go to Vitamin Shoppe, you can get all of it. GNC, Military Commissaries, Afees, Hannaford Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakeford, ShopRite, HEB, Meyer, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields. I guess they're putting Lifetime Fitness in Brooklyn, I heard.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Oh, right on.

• 2:05:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Brooklyn, New York.

• 2:05:10Speaker 01

  That's where my dad's from, by the way.

• 2:05:11Jocko Willink?

  There we go. Maybe he'll go check it out. Leave the island for a little bit. Go back home.

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  No, no, he's staying on. Clap.

• 2:05:18Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna have Molk in there. Shields. And look, you've got a gym, you go to a gym, you go to a gym. Maybe it's a jiu-jitsu gym, maybe it's a powerlifting gym, maybe it's a CrossFit gym. If they're not selling Jaco Fuel, you want them to, tell them to email [email protected]. Get on the clean fuel, the good stuff, the tasty stuff. That's what we're doing. Check it out. Also, OriginUSA.com. Check that out for your hunting gear, for your jeans, your jiu-jitsu gear, your rash guards, t-shirts, training gear, just everything that you need. 100% American made. Keep, keep the economy strong. Bring the manufacturing back to America.

• 2:06:02Jocko Willink?

  By the way, yeah, we won the wars. We won World War II.

• 2:06:08Jocko Willink?

  By the fighting men that were out there getting after it. But guess who else? All the people back here in America, manufacturing all this stuff. Rosie the Riveter back here.

• 2:06:20Jocko Willink?

  So let's make that happen. OriginUSA.com. Check that out.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  It's true. Also Jaco's store called Jaco Store. On this path, sometimes we want to represent, see what I'm saying? Whether it be a shirt, a hat, a hoodie, something like this. Go to JacoStore.com, that's where you can get it. Discipline equals freedom. Good. We all seen the video. We all seen the video. But yeah, good. Some other stuff on there. Also with, on JacoStore.com, there's a thing called the Shirt Locker. Subscription scenario. New design every month. People seem to like that one.

• 2:06:51Jocko Willink?

  If you see something, and you like something.

• 2:06:53Speaker 01

  It's called the Shirt Locker. The, okay. Actually, I'm not gonna tell you the next design. You're gonna have to wait and see. But yeah, it's all on JacoStore.com. If you like something, get something.

• 2:07:04Jocko Willink?

  You need steak.

• 2:07:07Jocko Willink?

  Once you're lifting, working out, doing jiu-jitsu, you're gonna need to fuel the system also with some steak. Go to primalbeef.com, go to coloradocraftbeef.com, the best steak you can get, tasty, perfect, awesome companies, awesome people, primalbeef.com, out there in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, and Colorado craft beef, obviously, Colorado. So check those out, get yourself some. Subscribe to the podcast, check out jockounderground.com, check out our YouTube channel, check out Psychological Warfare, check out Flipside Canvas, Dakota Meyer hanging

• 2:07:45Jocko Willink?

  stuff on your wall to keep you in the game. Also, books, clearly, get this book, A Marine Named Mitch.

• 2:07:55Jocko Willink?

  Also, I've written a bunch of books. You can check those out if you want. Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual, Expanded Edition, it's out. You know, I've also written a bunch of kids' books. Some people are like, "You've written kids' books?" Right? Yes, I have. I think I've written six of them. Yeah, I think I've written six of them. Way the Warrior Kids Series, Mikey and the Dragons, About Face by Hackworth, Extreme Ownership, Dichotomy, you guys know the deal. Check those out. Also, Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com. We got an event coming up in Nashville. I think it's sold out. But we also have the muster coming up in Dallas, October 16th through the 18th. We have

• 2:08:40Jocko Willink?

  FTX, we have Battlefield, we have the council, next council is June 26th to 29th. It registered now. Women's Assembly, run by Jamie, our chief operating officer, September 11th through the 13th in San Antonio, Texas. We also have an online training platform to learn about leadership,

• 2:08:58Jocko Willink?

  to learn about life and leadership. Go to extremeownership.com, check that out. Also, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. If you want to donate, or if you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Help Mama Lee, help our people.

• 2:09:26Jocko Willink?

  Also heroes and horses.org. Micah Fink up in Montana and Jimmy May has got an organization beyond the brotherhood.org. Check them all out. And if you want to connect with us, I'm at chaco.com. I'm also on social media, antisocial media because you sit there and you start looking at that thing and you going through it and getting mad at people and sending tweets,

• 2:09:49Jocko Willink?

  commenting, looking at someone wondering why they got that cool house and you don't. They got a G-Wagon. Where's mine? Don't, don't, don't fall into that trap.

• 2:10:01Jocko Willink?

  If you want to go on there, hang out, you want to go in there, be positive, cool. Don't let it suck you in. Don't let that algorithm get hold of your brain. It's designed to do that. It's designed to do that. They're making money off of your brain, making money off of your eyeballs. Don't let them.

• 2:10:21Jocko Willink?

  Be careful. We're on there. But we're not on there freaking all the time. We're not trying to drag you into it. At Jocko Willink, at Echo Charles, just watch out for the algorithm.

• 2:10:30Jocko Willink?

  Of course, thanks to all the military personnel out there in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines,

• 2:10:38Jocko Willink?

  out there on the front lines around the world, working together, as you saw in this book, support from the, there wasn't an Air Force at the time, but support from Marine Corps pilots overhead, Navy pilots overhead, Army and Marine Corps working together on the ground, Navy giving support. Appreciate all of you. Thank you for fighting for our way of life. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for being on the front lines here at home and keeping us safe.

• 2:11:17Jocko Willink?

  And I want to close by reading a part of Mitch Page's Medal of Honor citation.

• 2:11:26Jocko Willink?

  Quote, "Alone against the deadly hail of Japanese shells, he manned his gun and when it was destroyed, took over another, moving from gun to gun, never ceasing his withering fire against the advancing hordes until reinforcements finally arrived. Then, forming a new line, he dauntlessly and aggressively led a bayonet charge, driving the enemy back and preventing a breakthrough in our lines." End quote.

• 2:12:07Jocko Willink?

  That's bravery.

• 2:12:10Jocko Willink?

  That's courage. That is how victory is achieved.

• 2:12:16Jocko Willink?

  And you know, we all have our own battles.

• 2:12:20Jocko Willink?

  We're all fighting. Well, just keep that in mind. Get up, move, never cease, aggressively attack until you win.

• 2:12:35Jocko Willink?

  And that's all I've got for tonight. Until next time, Zeko and Jaco, out.