Are You a Wounded Healer or Empath? 10 Signs Your Childhood Pain Became Your Greatest Superpower

Are you the “fixer”? The old soul? The one everyone confides in? If you’ve always felt responsible for other people’s emotions… If chaos makes your nervous system light up… If you feel calmer giving care than receiving it… You might be a Wounded Healer. In this episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, Mayim & Jonathan break down the psychology, neuroscience, and archetype of the Wounded Healer — the empath, therapist, caregiver, parent, or high achiever who learned early in life that being needed was safer than being loved. We explore: - The myth of Chiron and the origin of the “wounded healer” - How childhood trauma, alcoholism, chronic illness, or emotional unpredictability shape hypervigilance - Neuroscience of empathy, mirror neurons, & nervous system entrainment - Why highly sensitive people (HSPs) & empaths often burn out - Hidden link between codependency & overgiving - Why you attract people who “need fixing” - How to set boundaries without losing your superpower - How you can learn to "care without carrying” Plus... Mayim and Jonathan take the 10-question Wounded Healer Quiz! This isn’t about shame. It’s about awareness. Your ability to read micro-signals, anticipate needs, and feel what others feel before they say it can be a profound gift. But if you don’t consciously harness it, it can lead to burnout, emotional exhaustion, and relationship imbalance. If you learned to be useful before you learned to be loved, this conversation is for you. You are allowed to help. You are allowed to heal. And you are also allowed to receive. Watch until the end for practical tools on regulating your nervous system, identifying unhealthy patterns, and transforming wounds into integrated strength. Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code MAYIM at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/mayim Slow the growth of greys and get 15% off by using code BREAKER at https://www. Arey.com Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code BREAK at https://www.mudwtr.com/BREAK #mudwtrpod Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mayim Bialik?

  Do you attract people who need fixing? Do you sense what people feel before they say anything? Do people confide in you without being invited? Oh my gosh, yes!

• 0:08Jonathan Cohen?

  How do we know if we are a wounded healer?

• 0:12Mayim Bialik?

  As a child, did you feel that you were older than your age?

• 0:16Jonathan Cohen?

  Were you also the black sheep?

• 0:18Mayim Bialik?

  We're talking about people who have a particular wound, who then also want to transform that into helping others.

• 0:25Jonathan Cohen?

  What if those wounds are the very thing we need to fulfill our life's purpose?

• 0:31Mayim Bialik?

  We're trying to encourage people to see wounds as possible openings. One's ability to help others often comes from places that you yourself were hurt. For those of you who may have learned that you were needed before you felt that you were loved, this is a call to action.

• 0:53Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Iain Bialik.

• 0:54Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:55Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to our Breakdown. Are you a person who is very helpful to other people? Are you a person who senses things that other people need, even before they know that they need them? Are you a person who's experienced a tremendously complicated and interesting journey on your way to helping others with their complicated, intense journeys? If so, you might be a wounded healer. Maybe you're a person who's always felt like you have strong intuitive ability, but you weren't sure where to channel it. You may have a superpower that has the ability to change not only your own nervous system, but that of those around you.

• 1:35Jonathan Cohen?

  This superpower can make you almost unbelievably good at your job, but there is a risk.

• 1:42Mayim Bialik?

  Energy drain, burnout, you may even have a significant life crash if you do not know how to harness the abilities that you may have been programmed to have. The term wounded healer actually comes from the myth of Chiron. That's C-H-I-R-O-N. He was a centaur who was the original wounded healer. So Chiron was referred to by Homer in the Iliad as the wisest and justest of all the centaurs, and he was known for his wisdom. However, he suffered a wound from which he couldn't heal, but he also couldn't die. And so he became this wise... Centaur, who himself could not heal.

• 2:26Mayim Bialik?

  So that is sort of the framing of the notion of a wounded healer.

• 2:30Jonathan Cohen?

  And the idea of wounded carries a certain connotation, right? Like, it can say, "Oh, I was wounded. I'm defective in some way. There's shame associated with it." But what if those wounds are the very thing we need to help us get to where we're going in life? To fulfill our life's purpose? You know, the term "you can only spot it if you've got it," which is a term you love, right? It's like, we have to go through some of these very difficult, challenging experiences in order to be able to show up in life and to be able to be effective.

• 3:06Mayim Bialik?

  I often wonder, you know, when you meet people who are therapists, I wonder what led them to that path. And in many cases, I think, "Oh, it's just like a magnanimous desire to like, learn a specific kind of thing and then share it with other people." But in many cases, it's people who have been on their own personal journey and have found that even the learning to become a therapist, the studying that they do and all the practicing, it actually gives them a window into their own life as well.

• 3:35Jonathan Cohen?

  How many people are out there studying psychology, trying to become a therapist so they can better understand themselves?

• 3:43Mayim Bialik?

  It reminds me of Laurie Gottlieb's book, "You Should Really Talk to Someone." And while she was, you know, kind of becoming a therapist, she learned more about herself, really, in the process than she had even anticipated.

• 3:55Jonathan Cohen?

  So how do we decide? How do we know if we are someone who would be considered a wounded healer? And what does it mean for you to know that information? How does it change your life? How does it change what you're motivated by? Sometimes, the desire to help other people may be an overcompensation.

• 4:16Mayim Bialik?

  Jung described this notion that one's ability to help others often comes from places that you yourself were hurt. Maybe you were overlooked, you were overwhelmed, left to figure things out on your own. And all of those places then become the jumping off point for you being able to help others.

• 4:37Jonathan Cohen?

  If someone is like, "Wait a second. How do I start to know if I am one of these people? Here are some characteristics that you may relate to."

• 4:47Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, as a child, did you feel that you were older than your age?

• 4:53Jonathan Cohen?

  You've often said you were a very old soul. People talk about that, being an old soul.

• 4:57Mayim Bialik?

  Let's just turn it into have you been referred to as an old soul? Were you the counselor, fixer, mediator in the family?

• 5:04Jonathan Cohen?

  I'll add one thing there. Were you also the black sheep sometimes?

• 5:08Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, interesting.

• 5:09Jonathan Cohen?

  The scapegoat of the family.

• 5:11Mayim Bialik?

  Did you feel responsible for other people's emotions? Were you hyper attuned to subtle emotional shifts in the room? Did you feel compelled to help or heal even at your own expense? Now, you might be looking at this list and saying, these could be also the things that happen if you grow up in alcoholism? If you grow up in a home where someone has a mental illness? If you grow up in a home even where someone has a chronic illness? And you become the person that's sort of doing all these things?

• 5:39Jonathan Cohen?

  You have to remove your needs because someone else in the house has a more urgent need.

• 5:46Mayim Bialik?

  Correct. So the idea wouldn't be that these are the things that make you wounded, but the idea would be that you may have a circumstance that created in you both a desire and early imprinting into not just how you do these things, but the impact that it has on other people. And this is the part where codependency enters the conversation. Did you feel that you had a power to heal other people? And that if you did not act, things wouldn't go well? The house couldn't run? They wouldn't get back together? Did it feel like you were given this power? That early training can often look like someone who, again,

• 6:30Mayim Bialik?

  has had this priming experience that later in life may really be a jumping off point for being a wonderful helper in ways that are appropriate and don't harm you.

• 6:40Jonathan Cohen?

  Similarly, you may be scanning.

• 6:44Jonathan Cohen?

  Waiting to see how the emotions in the room change, how someone may start to get angry or have an emotional reaction. And that scanning can also be both detrimental because it keeps you stuck, but also can be very helpful to attune you.

• 6:59Mayim Bialik?

  I was instantly thinking about, what about people who are on the spectrum? What about people who don't pick up emotional cues? What about people who are not necessarily in tune with how the room shifts?

• 7:10Jonathan Cohen?

  I would argue that what they lack in potential processing cognitively, what's going on, they may be very aware of and react to somatically.

• 7:21Mayim Bialik?

  Internally.

• 7:22Jonathan Cohen?

  One thing I wanted to also touch on, feeling older than your age as a child, or being told you have an old soul, is such a double edged sword. Right? Because it's an acknowledgement that you carry with you some kind of wisdom, experience.

• 7:39Mayim Bialik?

  It's code.

• 7:40Jonathan Cohen?

  That may translate beyond your years. For example, I always had older friends. I always thought my brother's friends should be mine. I connected with an older group of friends, especially after my brother's accident. I had a very hard time relating to kids my own age. And I would often find myself in a much older crowd. And you've described this, that can actually be, I don't want to say dangerous, but it can, it can be dangerous. It can be dangerous because it places you outside of the normal trajectory of what someone that age should be experiencing. And while you may have ways of connecting, you may be mature, you may have insight that other people don't have your age.

• 8:24Jonathan Cohen?

  You don't have all the experiences.

• 8:26Mayim Bialik?

  I wonder if sometimes that is an indication that you have lived lives that have given you, I'm just gonna say it, a sense of wisdom? Some sort of historical knowledge? I mean, I've had like healers and stuff say like, you've lived many lives. And it, there seems to be something about certain personalities. And people always assume like, oh, were you an indigo child? I was like, no, I was a very obedient, not indigo child kind of kid. But I do wonder if there's something energetic that other people are picking up on.

• 9:01Jonathan Cohen?

  Would you like to know how many past lives you've lived?

• 9:04Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 9:06Jonathan Cohen?

  If you're just listening to the audio, you didn't see the eye roll that happened there.

• 9:09Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, how many past lives have I lived?

• 9:11Jonathan Cohen?

  Over a thousand.

• 9:13Mayim Bialik?

  Has everyone lived over a thousand?

• 9:14Jonathan Cohen?

  No, some people are brand new here.

• 9:18Mayim Bialik?

  How do you know that?

• 9:19Jonathan Cohen?

  How do you not know it?

• 9:20Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 9:24Mayim Bialik?

  We've talked about therapy, but there's also many other professions where this kind of wisdom and insight can be helpful. Caregiving, when we spoke with death doula Martha Jo Atkins, she described that for many, the caregiving process is one that heals not only the person you're giving attention to, but yourself as well. Nursing, teaching, obviously spiritual or energetic work, and even activism could be forms of let me fix something. I know what's broken because I feel it. Let me go out and fix it.

• 9:59Jonathan Cohen?

  Also, parenting has a similar quality to giving back the things that you didn't get, you know? One of the phrases I love most about parenting is you can't handle emotions in your child that you yourself can't handle.

• 10:12Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:12Jonathan Cohen?

  If you were told all the time, you should be seen, not heard, or you know, you know your place, or you know, you were expected to operate a certain way as a child, even when you want to change that and give your child something that you did not yourself get, it can bring up a lot of emotions for you.

• 10:28Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, this is, the reason I'm laughing as you're talking about this is maybe instead of saying I'm the parent of two children, I should say, I'm the wounded healer of two children.

• 10:38Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, I like that. Also, you are reparenting yourself through your children.

• 10:43Mayim Bialik?

  Absolutely. I, I, I work obviously with women in lactation scenarios where, where they are, you know, having newborns. And for the first time moms in particular that I speak to, there comes this moment of like, oh my gosh, I thought I could control everything. And you're experiencing the lack of control that, that, that we often experienced as children, when you see it in this helpless infant. And as adults, we want to say, I fixed it. I did it. I got it all together. But especially if you come from a complicated, you know, home or from complexity, that's all going to get kicked up when you are in a parenting situation, absolutely.

• 11:21Jonathan Cohen?

  Let's talk about why wounded healers happen. We, we spoke a little bit about.

• 11:27Jonathan Cohen?

  Some of the ways that someone can grow up and the scenarios, there are parallels here to highly sensitive people, to being an empath to other MB and JC episodes that we were exploring. But talk about how you grow up and what it creates.

• 11:45Mayim Bialik?

  We've touched already on some of the environments that can lead to wounds, let's say, or lead to not only a wound, but a wound with the belief that you can transform it, right? Because there's a lot of people who have wounds from childhood who don't become healers. And there's a lot of people who are healers who may not have wounds. But we're talking about this intersection between people who have a particular wound or need that wasn't met, who then also want to transform that into helping others. So a parent in distress, if you grew up in a home with a parent in distress, alcoholism, very common cause of this, a parent with mental illness, as we said, a chronic condition, if someone has something like multiple sclerosis,

• 12:30Mayim Bialik?

  if they have a cancer diagnosis that they're managing.

• 12:32Jonathan Cohen?

  If they have chronic pain.

• 12:33Mayim Bialik?

  Autoimmune conditions, these kinds of things. There's a constant need for someone to sort of fill that and it's often, it can be a child.

• 12:41Jonathan Cohen?

  Also, if there's a high level of financial distress.

• 12:45Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 12:46Jonathan Cohen?

  Because all of the things that you mentioned have one thing in common and it's a lack of emotional predictability. Talk to us about what that does and why we need that.

• 12:56Mayim Bialik?

  This is, you know, one of the areas where in neuroscience, we have some information about sort of what's going on. And what happens when there's unpredictability is there's a state of hypervigilance that we respond with. So, you know, obviously the brain is a pattern recognizer and we love when there's, when there's some sense of predictability. And we know this from many animal studies in particular. When you introduce chaos, when you introduce unpredictability, many things will happen to compensate. So one is hypervigilance. One is also a blurring of safety boundaries.

• 13:37Mayim Bialik?

  Meaning anything sort of is okay if it tries to maintain or establish some form of control or a belief that you are in control. So what you have is you have this brain that's constantly scanning and more prone to being distracted and also more prone to finding places where you can fill that hole.

• 14:00Jonathan Cohen?

  What does

• 14:01Mayim Bialik?

  My MB Alex Breakdown is supported by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you reach for over and over again? That sweater that somehow works with everything? The jeans you know will always fit just right? The bag you carry everywhere? Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe and that's what Quince does so well. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, premium stretch denim. The designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted and made to be worn again and again. And as the weather gets colder, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch. I'm personally obsessed with Quince's 100% European linen wide leg pants.

• 14:45Mayim Bialik?

  I can wear them year round because I live in Southern California. They feel like PJs, but it looks like I put a ton of effort in whether I'm dressing for casual workdays, lazy weekends, or vacation vibes. I'm also obsessed with their sheets, so soft. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work with ethical factories and cut out the middle people, so you pay for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just apparel. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make, from hotel quality bedding to kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was My MB Alex Breakdown.

• 15:29Mayim Bialik?

  It's the best way to support our show.

• 15:31Jonathan Cohen?

  Does it mean to fill that hole?

• 15:33Mayim Bialik?

  One of the things that makes us feel better when there's unpredictability is finding places where we matter. And when I think of this in terms of relationships, right? Like, why would someone who's raised like this, let's say, pick someone who needs a lot of maintenance in a relationship, right? It's because it gives you a purpose, it gives you something to do, it gives you this false sense of like, "Oh, well, they're a mess, I'm gonna clean it up for them." You often hear this, I feel like Valerie's gonna nod her head, when you hear women who are with men who need a lot of upkeep. They need a lot of like, monitoring, and they like, need you, they're always like, "Do this for me, do that for me, I can't take care of this myself." And there's often a partner who wants to fill all those, like, "Oh, I'll do that, I'll

• 16:16Mayim Bialik?

  do that, I'll take care of this for him, I'll make his doctor's appointment, I'll encourage him to eat right, I'll do this." That kind of relationship, which we would define as one that has codependency, involves a lot of these components too, hypervigilance, always being available for that person. And this can happen, obviously, in any kind of relationship, not just man and woman.

• 16:35Jonathan Cohen?

  And what's important about these characteristics to recognize is that you can give, you can support, you can be an amazing partner, you can be amazing therapist or healer, a nurse, but if it's coming from a place of this open wound, you may be putting yourself at risk to overgive, to not have it feel reciprocal. The importance of knowing the wounds that we have are so that we can address and tend to them internally and ourselves, and then operate in the world as a more integrated person, right? Like, when we're operating from a place where we're trying to fix ourselves through external action, it can be a recipe for setting us up for failure.

• 17:20Mayim Bialik?

  We know that the amygdala, which is typically fear processing, but also is involved in any emotion that has kind of fear or threat component, we know that the amygdala can be overreactive in these kinds of situations. There's also some really interesting research about how the brains of people in codependent relationships will kind of entrain to seem more like the person that they are taking care of. You know, we have a mirror system in our Our brain that mirrors what other people are experiencing and doing. And the notion of a chemical basis for this kind of wound would be.

• 18:00Mayim Bialik?

  I am adapting my environment of my nervous system to feel more like yours. So I am more attuned to you. I know what your needs are and they almost feel like they're mine. Right? That would feel like a compulsive need and an obligation to be helpful in this situation.

• 18:20Jonathan Cohen?

  That is one of the most interesting explanations of a phenomenon that we have actually talked about before. The idea that I'm going to change my brain pattern so that my entire system is aware of your needs. It's like, on one hand, if I can do that in a way that has boundaries and responsibility. Imagine the superpower, right? I can track you. I'm able to anticipate you. I'm able to show up and probably you feel so seen by me.

• 18:51Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 18:52Jonathan Cohen?

  That you feel no one understands me.

• 18:55Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 18:55Jonathan Cohen?

  Except for this person at a level that is so deep.

• 18:57Mayim Bialik?

  So because this conversation though, is not about codependency. Cause you could see how that could obviously get really complicated in a relationship. Let's talk about what it means if your caregiver has these superpowers. Let's talk about what it means if your therapist has these superpowers. Let's talk about what it means if people in professional, you know, positions are, I don't know. Really, really sensitive to reading micro signals that you're giving. So if you're telling your story to a therapist, to a counselor, to a social worker. And they are picking up on things, they may be able to help you in ways that you don't even know that you need to be helped. What if they are feeling into something that you're not yet aware of? In a relationship, you'd say, don't tell me how to feel.

• 19:41Mayim Bialik?

  But if it's a therapist, you're having someone who says, is it possible that? And they're opening something up to you that you may not have access to. Why? Because we're in denial. We want to protect this. We want to stay the way we are because it's comfortable. That would be a really, really incredible superpower to have in a therapist. Who is a wounded healer? Also, what if your therapist or healer or caregiver had strong intuitive abilities? That would be exactly the kind of thing that we would want. Not that they would tell you what they think is going on before you can confirm it, but the notion that they may have an intuition, "Ooh, something's not right." I can't tell you how many times I've said things to my therapist where I was like,

• 20:24Mayim Bialik?

  "I realized this," and she was like, "Mm-hmm, been waiting for you to get there." And they also can't force you to get there, but they at least have a framework that they're then protecting you in for when you have the revelations that they possibly already intuited.

• 20:37Jonathan Cohen?

  If you are a wounded healer, you need to know more about it, because if you are automatically intuiting and you are using these abilities without a conscious, um, understanding of them, you may be pushing people beyond what they realize because you think it's obvious.

• 20:57Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I mean, nobody wants to go to the friend who's like, "I know everything about what's going on and you don't..." If you've ever tried to convince someone to leave a relationship they should leave, they're not gonna leave until they're ready. And then you just become the friend who's like, "Well, I don't wanna talk about it anymore, cuz I know how this is gonna go down." Not that I have any experience with this. Is it time for a quiz?

• 21:15Jonathan Cohen?

  One of the favorite things to do to really understand, if you meet some of the criteria for the things that we talk about in these solo episodes, this feels like really a quiz moment, so take out your pens.

• 21:27Mayim Bialik?

  Take out your pens.

• 21:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Take out your paper.

• 21:29Mayim Bialik?

  We have a 10-point quiz. And the quiz is, could you possibly be a wounded healer? 10 questions. This is yes or no. Were you the emotional support system in your family? I was? Oh, sorry, I don't need to answer out loud. Okay. No, you were not the emotional support system in your family.

• 21:48Jonathan Cohen?

  I was not, although...

• 21:50Mayim Bialik?

  You were the cause for people needing emotional support.

• 21:53Jonathan Cohen?

  I was not, that was my brother, but I was the comedic relief which could sort of be its own thing, so I'll take a half a point for that one.

• 22:02Mayim Bialik?

  Do you sense what people feel before they say anything?

• 22:04Jonathan Cohen?

  I already knew you were gonna say that.

• 22:07Mayim Bialik?

  Do people confide in you without being invited? Oh my gosh, yes! Sorry. Do you feel guilty when you can't help someone? Ooh. Did you grow up feeling responsible for someone's well-being? I was responsible for someone's well-being. Does chaos, conflict, or unpredictability activate your body? So what this question is asking is, if you go somewhere and you're like, at like, a huge, like, loud train station and everything's going a million ways, do you feel out of sorts? Do you feel like, oh, I can't really, like, I used to describe this when, when my younger son was little. If there was too much visual stimulation, his legs stopped working. He would, like, we went to Disneyland, he would just stop. So, does too much, basically, information on the outside cause you to feel agitated, out of sorts, or like, something's not right?

• 22:50Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm gonna take that one step further and say, if you're in an environment, it could not be at a train station, it could be like, in a work environment, and there's a lot of uncertainty.

• 22:59Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 23:00Jonathan Cohen?

  How do you respond? Do you need a high level of predictability in social dynamics in order to feel safe?

• 23:06Mayim Bialik?

  Right. Uh, okay, so that was question six. Does chaos, conflict, or unpredictability activate your body? Do you attract people who need fixing? Like, as a rule? If you don't need fixing, we shouldn't be friends. That's how I decide. Do you feel calmer when caretaking than when receiving care? Ooh, great question. So, do you, I would also interpret this, do you find it hard to receive care, or love, or presence, or kindness, but you feel okay when giving it to someone else? That's a great question. Um, does someone else's pain feel like your personal responsibility? I just thought that's the way we're programmed. Does, oh, you're hurting? We're all hurting. That's what it feels like.

• 23:51Mayim Bialik?

  Do you choose careers or relationships where you're needed? If you scored between one and four yeses, you are sensitive. Congratulations. But not necessarily a wounded healer. If you scored between five and seven yeses, you've got the pattern.

• 24:08Mayim Bialik?

  It's hovering and between eight and 10, that's right, you and me, we are the classic wounded healer archetype.

• 24:17Jonathan Cohen?

  I got a six, but.

• 24:18Mayim Bialik?

  I'm sorry, what?

• 24:20Jonathan Cohen?

  Here's why I got a six. There are many of these things that I, if you had asked me years ago, I would have said yes, and now I'll say no.

• 24:30Mayim Bialik?

  You're just a regular healer, not the wounded kind?

• 24:32Jonathan Cohen?

  So the one that says, does chaos, conflict and unpredictability activate your body? I would have said yes previously, but now I.

• 24:40Mayim Bialik?

  Who you are.

• 24:41Jonathan Cohen?

  I like a little chaos.

• 24:42Mayim Bialik?

  No. Okay.

• 24:45Jonathan Cohen?

  You don't think so?

• 24:47Mayim Bialik?

  I don't, I think, yeah, you do like chaos. You're very comfortable with it. But I also know that if we go somewhere where you like, don't feel good energy from people, places or things, your body gets activated.

• 24:59Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, I don't like going to Disneyland. I'll just be honest.

• 25:02Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, I think that that would be a chaotic. That would be a chaotic situation. You don't love conflicts.

• 25:09Jonathan Cohen?

  No, I don't like.

• 25:10Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, okay. So I think it activates your body. I'm just saying.

• 25:12Jonathan Cohen?

  So I did have a yes to that. Um, do you attract people who need fixing? That's why we're here.

• 25:21Jonathan Cohen?

  Do you feel calmer when caretaking? Yes, because most people don't.

• 25:24Mayim Bialik?

  You're not.

• 25:25Jonathan Cohen?

  Properly.

• 25:26Mayim Bialik?

  You don't really care take.

• 25:28Jonathan Cohen?

  That's not true.

• 25:32Mayim Bialik?

  You like being taken care of.

• 25:34Jonathan Cohen?

  No, because most people do it wrong.

• 25:38Mayim Bialik?

  I think we're in a different quiz right now. This is the, are you impossible?

• 25:45Jonathan Cohen?

  Do you feel someone else's pain like your personal responsibility? I would have said yes previously.

• 25:52Mayim Bialik?

  I agree.

• 25:52Jonathan Cohen?

  And that is something that I've actively seen.

• 25:55Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 25:55Jonathan Cohen?

  Begun to work on and recognize when it happens, I pull back, I push their energy away. I'd be like, you can exist without it impacting, like, that's a whole process.

• 26:05Mayim Bialik?

  Let's revisit what this quiz is. Do you have the components of a wounded healer? If at any point you have felt that other people's pain interferes with yours, that's an indication to me that you have healer qualities that probably come from that kind of place. So the question is not so much can you manage it? Everyone thinks you're great at managing it. The fact that you're able to perceive other people's needs as feeling like, ooh, is this something that's mine? That indicates, I think that would be a yes.

• 26:37Jonathan Cohen?

  In fact, yes, and I had to, I did that so much that I had to figure out and focus on a practice to help me understand what was mine and what was other people's. And if you're someone who has that experience, message me on Substack. We're going to do a whole live about how to create an energy bubble around yourself to push people's energy out. More and more on the podcast, we've talked about the physics of the fact that we are energy beings. We have energy, we transmit energy, we have energy around us, right? And if we are not actively building a space for ourselves, we can get overtaken.

• 27:17Jonathan Cohen?

  It can be as simple as I'm really, really aware that someone is in need of some kind. And those people who are exceptionally empathic may have a wounded healer component to them. They may feel that person's need on a physical level.

• 27:33Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 27:34Jonathan Cohen?

  How do you recognize that? Take it away from your physical level and push it so that it's further away from you. It's not that you're changing that person, meaning that you can't stop them being in need, but you can change how you experience it.

• 27:50Mayim Bialik?

  It's the difference between feeling sad and feeling someone else's sad.

• 27:54Jonathan Cohen?

  You may feel someone else in need and you may have an ache in your heart. And that may be a signal to you, right? That's a powerful skill set is to echo and mirror in your own body. Because it's, it's communication. You're getting a high level of intuitive or even I would say a version of psychic communication. However, if it's not in balance and you're not aware of how to interact with it, it can overtake what you are actually experiencing. So by removing it and learning how to... Acknowledge it and move it out, you can regain what your experience of your physical body is.

• 28:32Mayim Bialik?

  I take issue with the word psychic, but that's for another time.

• 28:35Jonathan Cohen?

  That's for another time.

• 28:36Mayim Bialik?

  Let's talk about some of the pitfalls of being a wounded healer. And these are different than the pitfalls of being a person who has wounds, right? Because we're talking about a very specific kind of like subset here.

• 28:49Jonathan Cohen?

  When you're in a healing profession, these get amplified.

• 28:53Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 28:54Jonathan Cohen?

  So you're putting yourself in an environment where the wound can be activated and then lead you to a place where you could be injured or have more damage done to you.

• 29:04Mayim Bialik?

  When we spoke to Elizabeth Krone, who was struck by lightning and came back from a near-death experience with uncanny abilities to see into different realms of time. She described this when she started seeing clients, because someone was like, if you can see everything, like do readings. And she said she felt a tremendous burden. She felt an emotional burden of carrying all of this kind of information. So that's one of the things. It is a cause for burnout for many people. If you are in a healing or caregiving profession, you can burn out. Your system is holding so much. In addition, the notion of, in one's personal life in particular,

• 29:49Mayim Bialik?

  attracting people who need rescuing, this is a really hard one. I always wonder, what are therapists like when they go home? You know, how do you not psychoanalyze everyone that you interact with? How do you be a person who's dating if you're a therapist and you have intuitive abilities? Like, how do you make those distinctions? And it can blur the line. And in many cases, I do know people who are therapists, but kind of in their off time, they also do a lot of caregiving, because you do, you have wisdom, you have this to give. And there's a need for really strong boundaries there so that you don't burn out or overgive.

• 30:25Jonathan Cohen?

  Another way of explaining that would be, how do you ensure that the people in your life are giving you the same support that you are giving to others when you're used to being in the support environment? Especially if you're trained to see those patterns deeply.

• 30:40Mayim Bialik?

  And also, can you just turn that off?

• 30:41Jonathan Cohen?

  How do you make sure you're not just collecting people who you would otherwise be seeing in therapy as your friends?

• 30:48Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, that's hard, especially in LA.

• 30:50Jonathan Cohen?

  No, but I think the more we're aware of that, especially the more we're aware of is someone draining us? Do I feel really empty after interacting with this person? Or is there a high degree of like, oh, I feel like I have to get back to them versus they're going to understand me? There's not the same level of miscommunication that I'm going to have to make sure is interpreted correctly. When you're being met at a level where there's spaciousness, reciprocity, that will be much more empowering and energetically uplifting.

• 31:21Mayim Bialik?

  I want to touch on also, again, some of these superpowers and how it can be a real strength to be a person who both has experienced some wounds and who then has the capacity to transform that into healing others and seeing things in others that they may not see. So we already talked a little bit about, you know, the ability to manage the acknowledgement of microsignals, to be able to have intuitive ability, pattern recognition. You know, people who are wounded healers are often deeply empathetic and spiritually open in many cases. You know, a lot of people who have experienced challenges do set themselves up for,

• 32:05Mayim Bialik?

  or the universe sets themselves up for, extrasensory abilities or extrasensitivity, these kind of other, you know, psi phenomenon more abilities that Jonathan's talking about. There's an ability to, at a very high level, be able to feel into what people need and be able to provide it in a way that people who may not have experienced those wounds simply can't provide.

• 32:28Jonathan Cohen?

  If you've never experienced someone who has these capabilities, or if you may be doing them automatically and not realizing just how impactful they can be on someone's life. You know, I've run four companies. The largest team we had was 100 people. But most of the teams averaged between 15 and 20 people. And the amount of miscommunication that happens even amongst awesome, talented people, just to clarify what the goal is, is so much. And it actually can derail and add sand in the wheels. And that is true with all of life. Like, when you know exactly what I'm trying to say, that doesn't take away my responsibility to communicate.

• 33:13Jonathan Cohen?

  But sometimes people are like, "Oh, I have kind of an idea." And when someone meets you at a place where they just get you, the person's nervous system feels more relaxed because you're not on edge of being misinterpreted. When a friend, just like you express something, and they can say back to you, "You know, I hear that. And also, I hear that maybe there's this other thing happening for you." Not to take away your agency, but to flesh out all the unsaid things that are communicated all the time. We feel so much more connected to people. And we can then even feel more connected to ourselves because instead of trying to get the sand out of the gears of connection,

• 33:55Jonathan Cohen?

  you're actually felt seeing your heart opens, you're relaxed, and you're like, "Well, what else might there be to talk about?" And you've experienced this. You and I have even practiced saying, you know, holding off any type of misunderstanding and saying, "What else?"

• 34:09Mayim Bialik?

  In any environment where you are experiencing the possibility of connection, meaning being able to connect, being able to help, whether it's in a professional capacity or even in a personal capacity, we're trying to encourage people to see wounds as possible openings and places where they have the ability and the power to create these kinds of connections that really can diffuse a situation, give people a sense of belonging, and help things move smoothly. So it's not just in that interpersonal realm. It also echoes out into these larger situations.

• 34:45Jonathan Cohen?

  When we are witnessed, you know, it's the slit experiment. From a spiritual standpoint, if you extrapolate that, when someone is witnessing us... We do change.

• 34:56Mayim Bialik?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:57Jonathan Cohen?

  You know, when we're operating by ourselves, we can love being by ourselves, but when someone sees us at that level, I do think it has a mode of healing, which is why so many people who have this ability move into these professions.

• 35:09Mayim Bialik?

  Absolutely, and that is, again, kind of the superpower that we're trying to reframe this as. Also, we've talked in many other episodes about, if you are someone who is wounded and feel like you want to be a healer, there are definitely things you want to look into. You want to be able to regulate your own nervous system. You want to be able to not feel disrupted or disturbed by interacting with other people, and that's something that people learn, especially when they're new to healing. Maintaining healthy emotional boundaries is incredibly important, especially in your personal relationships, so that you feel clear when you are interacting with others. And it's also important to learn to receive support

• 35:54Mayim Bialik?

  and not just be the giver of information, healing, and help, but also to learn to balance those needs so that you also can complete the healing that you need.

• 36:06Jonathan Cohen?

  Because a lot of people will attract takers or attract people who need that saving, and it can feel good at first to play that role because you're applying all the skills and abilities that you naturally have. But you have to be careful. Is it ultimately draining you? Are you being matched with someone who is going to be uplifting, be energetically supportive?

• 36:29Mayim Bialik?

  For those of you out there who may have learned that you were needed before you felt that you were loved, this is a call to action for you to remember that just because you are useful to others, just because you are helpful to others, it doesn't mean that there's not still things in you that need tending to.

• 36:47Jonathan Cohen?

  We're giving a bit of an overview here in this episode. Identifying when boundaries are not working is an intellectual and a physiological process. You know, monitoring your physiological cues, what your body is telling you, trying to pick up on signals that feel like they're pulling you astray and maybe draining you. You said if you felt useful before you felt loved.

• 37:15Jonathan Cohen?

  That's just, I just felt that when you said it. I think a lot of people can relate. And the rewrite is, my worth isn't measured in my usefulness. I can help without being absorbed.

• 37:29Jonathan Cohen?

  I can care without carrying.

• 37:35Jonathan Cohen?

  Right? And if we start to use those reframes, how does that feel in our body?

• 37:39Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 37:39Jonathan Cohen?

  We are deserving of love, even if we are not being helpful.

• 37:43Mayim Bialik?

  We're very curious for the wounded healers out there, what your experience has been with your journey. Were there moments when it was hard and didn't seem like it was possible? And what was that breakthrough like when you realized you could manage it all, including your own needs?

• 38:00Jonathan Cohen?

  If there are any other of the exercises that we talked about, or ways to identify and work with setting boundaries, or clearing your space, or knowing when you're getting pulled in, let us know. Find us on Substack and we'll do a deep dive on Substack.

• 38:16Mayim Bialik?

  And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.