Zuck's AI Future, AI Hacks Gym, SpaceX Moons | Ryan Spoon, Nicolai Klemke, Adam Goldstein & Brian Yutko

(00:41) - Zuck's AI Future (25:50) - PE Boyfriends (33:42) - Chip Nerds Dominate Dating Scene (35:22) - AI Hacks Gym (41:29) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (44:46) - SpaceX Moons (52:00) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (01:02:25) - Ryan Spoon, president of Yahoo Media Group, discusses Yahoo’s strategy for growing its sports, finance, fantasy, and video businesses. He highlights new fantasy formats, emerging sports leagues, multiplatform talent, prediction-market partnerships, and the company’s focus on increasing audience engagement and consumption. (01:23:24) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (01:33:48) - Nicolai Klemke discusses founding Neural Frames, a profitable, bootstrapped Berlin startup that uses AI to create polished, character-consistent music videos. He explains the company’s rapid growth, opinionated user experience, and approach to combining leading video models with accessible editing tools. (01:47:04) - Adam Goldstein & Brian Yutko. Adam Goldstein, founder and CEO of electric aircraft company Archer, discusses its acquisition of three Boeing businesses and the resulting strategic partnership. He explains how the deal combines Archer’s commercialization focus with Boeing’s autonomous aviation technologies, accelerating advanced air mobility development ahead of Archer’s planned role at the 2028 Los Angeles Olympics. Brian Yutko is the Chief Technology Officer of Boeing, where he leads the company's technology strategy and the development of next-generation commercial aircraft. Previously the CEO of Wisk Aero, he has spent his career advancing autonomous flight, advanced air mobility, and aerospace innovation, with earlier leadership roles at Aurora Flight Sciences and Boeing's future aircraft programs. (01:54:47) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions TBPN is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Public - https://public.com Cisco - https://www.cisco.com Console - https://www.console.com CrowdStrike - https://www.crowdstrike.com Figma - https://www.figma.com MongoDB - https://www.mongodb.com NYSE - https://www.nyse.com Railway - https://railway.com Shopify - https://www.shopify.com Codex - http://openAI.com/codex Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tbpn/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  You're watching TVN. Today's Monday, August 10th, 2026. We're live from the TVN Ultra Dome. The Temple of Technology, the Fortress of Finance, the Capital of Capital. We got a packed studio today. We got a great show. Uh, big, big news. Mark Zuckerberg dropped a blog post. Also, I mean, the bigger news is that they open sourced, uh, already one model and they're planning to open source Muse Spark 1.2. That's big. Um, but, but the blog post lays out his AI vision and we should go through it first. I'm going to tell you about ramp.com. Time is money. Save both. Easy use corporate cards, bill pay, accounting and a whole lot more all in one place.

• 0:39John Coogan?

  So, um, Meta was sort of set up to be, and also ran in the AI race, like the Lama project stalled out. Jan LeCoon exited. Their biggest model, Behemoth, never shipped, which was ironic because in the Bible, Behemoth is this untamable land creature. And of course it was just, the model was too big to be tamed to be released. And it was like nominative determinism in action. Happens a lot in tech, unfortunately, but, um, they also turned over the entire team and Zuck said, I'm not quitting. I'm not out of the game. I'm staying.

• 1:14John Coogan?

  I'm all in. Yeah. And I'm raising debt, equity, doing all sorts of deals, uh, making things happen, making big offers to AI researchers, rebuilding the team, bringing in Alex Wang, Nat Friedman, Daniel Gross, a bunch of heavy hitters. And, uh, they already build massive data centers. Uh, they have a huge surface area to distribute AI, uh, consumer experiences. If they come up with new ones, they have, you know, billions of users that can, they can, you know, put some, you know, hey, try this thing. And maybe they'll get a bunch of users from it if it's good. Um, uh, and then semi, semi-analysis also just one month ago laid out like a much more detailed bull case for MSL in particular. It was interesting, uh, because I was always optimistic about, okay, they have a lot of data from Instagram. They have a lot of images.

• 1:59John Coogan?

  They'll do a great image model, like the image editing will be the best in class. Uh, they, they can finally like kill cap cut with their edits app, which is great. And when I think about you're taking an image, you're taking a video, you have a bunch of videos from a trip. You want to edit all that together for some Instagram story or Instagram reel. Uh, reels editing is its own skill, its own talent. It's not available to everyone. A lot of like family friends of mine will use Instagram and they'll just post a picture on stories. They're not doing edited cinematic reels, but with AI, you potentially get someone from, oh, you took a bunch of video. Some of it's horizontal, some of it's vertical, some of it's sort of crop rungs, some of it's colored.

• 2:37Jordi Hays?

  Turn that into some brain rot for you. You can just throw it right here in this trough.

• 2:42John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:45John Coogan?

  Adding those programmatically. Uh, no, you actually could, you actually could. Um, and so, and so I was optimistic about that. And then obviously we talked to Eric Sufer about, uh, just the gem model and how AI can immediately move the needle on ad monetization, targeting all of that. So there were lots of reasons to be optimistic. Semi-analysis laid out this more detailed bull case. And they said that there was this interesting detail that maybe was getting missed, which was that, uh, by, uh, recording the screens of every meta employee, which is very controversial and bold, but actually ripping that Band-Aid off and just saying, hey, we're, we're an AI training company now. And everyone's going to be recording their screens and their flows and all, how all their work gets done.

• 3:25John Coogan?

  They basically got like a frontier leading AI data labeling company for free. I mean, they took a, you know, PR hit for it, had to answer some questions, but in general, like the volume of tasks, the volume of quality data that's coming from that workforce now is on the order of a scale, Merckor, handshake, et cetera, surge. And so, uh, they just get that more or less for free. Obviously Meta's lawyers are great. Meta's research is great. Meta's finance team is great. So if you're, if you're getting all of that, it's equivalent to hiring a really talented person to do a training task.

• 4:03Jordi Hays?

  Yes, yes. And yes and no. I think, I think a lot of the data that, that the surges and Merckors are creating is much more specialized.

• 4:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:11Jordi Hays?

  And I think there's just a lot of noise coming out of that data. They also have like rolled some, or maybe most of the program back. I think there was so much pushback.

• 4:20John Coogan?

  You can pause it for 15 seconds, once a day. No, I think you can pause it for like half an hour, an hour. Uh, if you want to go get a nice scroll in at work. Uh, but I mean, that's on brand. If you're like, yeah, I was scrolling reels at work at Meta. Why not?

• 4:35Jordi Hays?

  Testing. I was hunting for bugs.

• 4:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:38Jordi Hays?

  Your honor.

• 4:39John Coogan?

  For sure. For sure. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I, I, I think there are some, there are some employees who are just fully excluded because they work on proprietary things. They don't want leaking into the training data whatsoever. Uh, there's a whole bunch of nuance there. There's these funny like leaked, uh, messages from Boz being like, if you're saving time with AI, don't take more vacation days, like go ask your parents.

• 4:59Jordi Hays?

  What was that line? Like, ask your parents if it's a good strategy every time you talk to your boss to ask for more time off?

• 5:05John Coogan?

  It's a, it's a good point.

• 5:06Jordi Hays?

  So it was a really good point.

• 5:07John Coogan?

  It's a really good point.

• 5:08Jordi Hays?

  Really good point, but the timing was funny because over the weekend, Zuck had, uh, UFC fighters in Tahoe. And they're just like on this like, you know, on water octagon.

• 5:17John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 5:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. You can tell there's like, you know, all, all of Zuck's like security boats around it. And they're just like fighting, like, you know, wrestling or whatever.

• 5:27John Coogan?

  Let's pull this up. Zuck busy fighting with Marab in Lake Tahoe while his execs tell employees not to take vacations, thanks to AI.

• 5:33Jordi Hays?

  I think I've seen enough after this. I think he's ready for the octagon.

• 5:37John Coogan?

  He's looking good. What are those leg braces that you got on?

• 5:41Jordi Hays?

  Those are for striking, like they're effectively gloves for your knees.

• 5:43John Coogan?

  Okay. Okay. So you don't get your shins bashed up or something?

• 5:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you don't.

• 5:47John Coogan?

  Okay. That's cool. Well, anyway, uh, so following up on the op ed that Mark Zuckerberg dropped in the, in the paywall of the Wall Street Journal section, which is a little bit ironic because he's saying it's for everyone. Uh, yeah, I will be abundant and free, except for this article. Well, now you can go read a more lengthy version of his thesis for free, uh, not paywalled on Meta's corporate blog effectively. Uh, you know, I don't even think you need to log into any Facebook property to get access to this, but, uh, it's a 6,500 word encyclical. The Wall Street Journal called it like it's a paper, uh, bull, uh, on the AI future. High level AI, it's for everyone. Turns out it's for everyone.

• 6:27Jordi Hays?

  Whoa.

• 6:28John Coogan?

  That's what he's saying, but it's good. It's an anti-permanent underclass message, um, which comes, which is good. It's just good from a comms perspective to lay out a more optimistic, uh, philosophy here. And it also seems to be borne out by the data in the short term. Uh, you're not seeing any like crazy displacements in the economy. And so, uh, this comes from like a place of strength that's like backed up. And it's also just a very optimistic, uh, correct version of the piece. He takes a shot at fear-based marketing, uh, early on in the piece. He says, still, it's surprising that the discourse from many developing AI is so filled with doom. I do not understand why anyone who believes that AI will eliminate most jobs and much of humanity's relevance would rush to build that future.

• 7:13John Coogan?

  The notion that AI is so dangerous that the only safe path is an extreme concentration of power inherent isn't, seems inherently problematic. Historically, hoping that an absolute power will benevolent, benevolently provide for humanity, if sufficiently enlightened, has not led us to safe or positive outcomes. What do you think?

• 7:37Jordi Hays?

  Do you want to read a little bit more before I?

• 7:39John Coogan?

  Well, uh, so I mean, my, my take on that was basically that, uh, so he's framing this as, uh, I don't understand why anyone who believes in AI would try and become like the emperor and the dictator of AI. And I, I understand it. Uh, you know, uh, it's funny that he's like sort of playing dumb here, uh, because, uh, extreme concentration of power is awesome. If you're the one that has the power, uh, like I don't see, you have to imagine that most dictators living in other countries aren't like, oh, I would kill just to be like a normal American citizen. No, it's like, yeah, it sucks for the citizenry.

• 8:13Jordi Hays?

  Also, this is coming from a guy who has, you know, is, is effectively a monopoly, more like a duopoly.

• 8:24Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, has enjoyed the benefits of, you know, extreme concentration of, of, um, at least users.

• 8:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:32Jordi Hays?

  And social media activity.

• 8:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Jordi Hays?

  I, I came away from this, um,

• 8:37John Coogan?

  First, first, there are, there are three very concrete proposals that I think are good, and then we can go into some on what's downstream of it. So he, there's some hand wavy parts about the future and how things will align in the future that are sort of just guesses about how the future will play out, in my opinion. But there's some really solid, concrete proposals in here that I thought were awesome. One, he calls out that in Richland Parish, Louisiana, where Meta is building a large data center, teachers received a $50,000 bonus this year because of the increased tax revenue from their investment there. The superintendent told Meta that teachers are now moving there from across the country, and he believes it will become one of the nation's best school districts.

• 9:20John Coogan?

  There's been a lot of skepticism about money actually flowing from AI companies to citizens because a lot of times money just goes into the government and then it gets like squirreled away into weird projects that different, you know, developers can like pull from and the money just sort of disappears. This feels like a pretty linear track from like data center built, dollars in citizens' pockets. That's very, very good. I like how that played out. He also said that Meta's data centers are designed to be among the most water efficient in the world. We are committing to being water positive, which is a frame, like a term that I hadn't heard before, but I think is a good one. So what that means is they will restore more water than they use in the watersheds that they operate. And the

• 10:04John Coogan?

  goal is by 2030 to be net water positive. And in areas with high water stress, the goal is to restore 2% of the water that they use. And so I think that's good. Obviously, there's been a lot of, you know, it's been a bit of a quagmire on the water issue because there was that calculation error that people got way wrong. They thought the data centers were using way more water than they were. And so a lot of tech people just sort of wrote it off as like, ah, I don't even need to address it because it's misinformation. But of course, it's a resource. It's important to address it appropriately. And I think this messaging does a good job of laying out like, okay, yes, like, it might not be that much of an issue, but if it's not that much of an issue, then you can deal with it pretty easily and we're going to deal with it. So here's our plan.

• 10:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 10:46John Coogan?

  On electricity, they were a little bit less, a little bit softer. The language is just, we help keep electricity prices low by building our own energy generating infrastructure wherever we invest. This ensures that not only are we consuming energy that could, we are not consuming energy that could have gone to the local communities, but in some cases, we even supply, we even supply a surplus of low cost energy back to the communities. We think this is an important investment principle for sustainability. The, in some cases, is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Ideally, you would wind up, I think a lot of people would want to see like, oh, yes, in every case, when you build a data center,

• 11:25John Coogan?

  you bring enough power that the price of energy does not increase in the local community. But good direction. He does call out nuclear energy in a really interesting way. He shares this stat. Countries like China are bringing online one gigawatt of nuclear capacity every other week, which is insane. And he says, so we'll need to accelerate building of both energy and data centers to remain competitive. I thought this was a good framing and good reminder of how slow we are because we bring on one gigawatt of nuclear energy like every couple decades and they're doing it like every two weeks. And so, good, good to see

• 12:06John Coogan?

  that. And then also Meta's been spending on nuclear power, making commitments. All of them are long dated. There's a lot of regulatory hurdles, but he is putting his money where his mouth is in that regard, which I thought was good. And then, of course, the news is also paired with some real action from Meta. They're opening the weights of MUSE Glimmer, a 30 billion parameter dense model that can run locally, along with a plan to release the weights to MUSE Spark 1.2, their latest foundation model. Makes sense from a business perspective, I think, to ramp adoption. There was a lot that was going on, like the Llama ecosystem, and you could imagine that you, you download the weights to MUSE Spark 1.2, fine tune it, you're pretty happy, you're like, ah, okay,

• 12:51John Coogan?

  yeah, let me get on the, on the, on the API plan as well. And also, it's, you can imagine that there's businesses that want to cut costs but don't want to use a foreign model. That definitely exists for a variety of reasons. So this is a good option there. And then it also just disentangles the geopolitical discussion from the safety discussion. So if you're talking to someone who has a strong opinion about open source one way or the other, you can, you can just divide the discussion into, okay, how do you feel about MUSE Spark 1.2? Is that too dangerous to release? Is this a safety issue? Because it shouldn't be a distillation issue and it shouldn't be a, like a geopolitical issue. So you can narrow it down just to, are you, are you okay with strong, powerful, you know,

• 13:35John Coogan?

  AI being in the hands of just random people?

• 13:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 13:38John Coogan?

  Anyway.

• 13:39Jordi Hays?

  Anyways.

• 13:40John Coogan?

  First, before you react, let me tell you about Figma. Agents meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with Design System contacts.

• 13:47Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, I think, I think a lot of the stuff in here is like great and directionally correct.

• 13:54John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 13:55Jordi Hays?

  I think it was good that they tried to ground it in some concrete actions. He does come away as the, it seems like they've chosen to position him as the, the pick me AI lab leader, right? He's saying, if you're not familiar, pick me is an internet slang term for someone who tries too hard to get validation, attention, or approval. And that is certainly what he's doing. I think there's an incredible irony that like he, I think on Friday of last week, is having to go through this, like basically a billion dollar settlement for causing harm.

• 14:35John Coogan?

  True.

• 14:36Jordi Hays?

  At scale with all of their, all of their other products.

• 14:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Jordi Hays?

  And then ultimately, I still don't think that he has, or like MSL has any type of cohesive vision or strategy, right? They were doing open source.

• 14:54John Coogan?

  We were excited with the Manus thing. We were like, oh, this makes sense. There's like you deploy an agent within your Instagram account. There's a lot that you could do there, but that never really came.

• 15:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. You know, so, so they were doing open source, then they're getting cooked, and then they stop.

• 15:09John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 15:10Jordi Hays?

  And then now they're back.

• 15:11John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 15:12Jordi Hays?

  And the first thing they released was Meta Vibes, which is like, kind of what you would expect them to release, but obviously got a horrible reaction.

• 15:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:20Jordi Hays?

  Wasn't world positive at all. Wasn't personal superintelligence. It was slop intelligence.

• 15:25John Coogan?

  It's kind of fun. I like that it had music integrated. Like, I like that you could go and pick a real song from the library and then basically make a music video based on it.

• 15:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. But I just think like, like, very much, very much too soon, I think, for Mark to be like the good guy, like tech leader, where I just don't think he has like people's, like his brand got so much better over the last few years. When he was just doing the UFC thing.

• 15:52John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 15:53Jordi Hays?

  And wakeboarding and all that kind of stuff. But it's too early to be trying to parlay that into like, I can be trusted with.

• 16:00John Coogan?

  Do you think he needs to put points on the board? Or do you think he needs to move the needle before he can actually take a victory lap here?

• 16:07Jordi Hays?

  I think, I think, I think he's trying to move the needle. He needs to be more focused on getting some points on the board. Because open sourcing a model that isn't a frontier model is just like, okay, like, like, I don't, like, knowing how commercial this team is, I don't think they would open source or, or open, make the model open weights if they felt like there was going to be exceptional demand for it. And I think overall, like Mark standing up and saying like, hey, I want to be the leader of world positive AI probably hurts AI's public perception even more.

• 16:44John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 16:45Jordi Hays?

  And so.

• 16:46John Coogan?

  He's been called by Bernie Sanders now, right? He was included in that?

• 16:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. Which is ama, which is amazing for, for Meta, MSL.

• 16:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Jordi Hays?

  To be included in that group.

• 16:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:59Jordi Hays?

  Like, you would think that, like.

• 17:00John Coogan?

  It was DeepMind or Elon.

• 17:02Jordi Hays?

  Elon and DeepMind were not included.

• 17:04John Coogan?

  Wait, Elon wasn't.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  So that was just because there were the three cyber incidents.

• 17:07John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  And so, I mean, people have been, you know, alleging that maybe the Meta, you know, cyber incident was maybe, you know, somewhat, not as real as other ones.

• 17:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Be included, but.

• 17:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Anyway, so, so I don't come away with this, like, I think he has, he has no confidence from the market on the strategy. He still has not actually explained, I think in a compelling way, what their, what their product vision is. They're coming out with, with a coding harness. They're coming out with coding models. They're also doing open source.

• 17:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:44Jordi Hays?

  There's whispers of them, you know, getting into the, you know, becoming a NeoCloud. It's just like, I think as, I can, I can see why shareholders and employees just continue to be deeply frustrated.

• 17:57John Coogan?

  The coding harness thing would be, it feels like it would be much more believable from Microsoft. Like, we own GitHub. We were first in GitHub Copilot. Yeah, Nat Friedman's not here anymore, but we have a really strong relationship with OpenAI for the models and Azure in the enterprise. We are going to make a run at this seriously. And they have a better strategy. I, I like the strategy more, but, but, but it's, it's a really, really crazy pivot to go from social media to the enterprise.

• 18:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And ultimately, it's a lot of words from someone who I don't believe has any real vision or strategy. Like, at least when Dario comes out with an essay, this is someone who is undeniably a visionary, right?

• 18:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:39Jordi Hays?

  Has, has made a bunch of calls.

• 18:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:41Jordi Hays?

  Correctly. And so when he says something, they, I think it, I think it means some, but I think that, yeah, the product strategy so far just feels like throwing slop at a trough.

• 18:55John Coogan?

  Maybe.

• 18:56Jordi Hays?

  But defend it, John.

• 18:57John Coogan?

  Um.

• 18:58Jordi Hays?

  Steel man.

• 18:59John Coogan?

  What is the steel man? I mean, the steel man is the is, uh, it basically the steel man is like this could go the deep mind route where they get to, uh, they they get a little bit too, there's too much tension between the various corporate organizations. And the nightmare scenario would be like the reels team at Instagram saying like, we need the compute for reels and ad monetization and that putting tension with the researchers. So the researchers are saying, hey, that new data center looks amazing. We want to train some amazing model or we want to do some cheap inference. And the and the ad team and the reels team says, hey, we really got to keep the lights on over here.

• 19:43John Coogan?

  And so that tension just keeps butting heads against each other and they can't move as smoothly as some of the pure play labs.

• 19:53John Coogan?

  At the same time, there is, I like this Boz quote about like, you know, Boz recently told employees that any extra time freed up by AI should not be used for vacation. Instead, it could, it should go towards building cooler stuff at Meta. Like you have so many users, so much data, so many different product surface areas. It's clear that we're not at the end of history in terms of what you can do on your phone, what you can do in these apps. And there are really delightful experiences that we run into all the time. Like Suno is a really cool consumer product. We have the CEO of whatnot on like that's seeing a bunch of traction. There are, there are things that you should be able to build faster, leverage the current technology stack more efficiently.

• 20:38John Coogan?

  And then also like add AI features to actually bring those to consumers at scale. Like when they launched their AI image model, I was, I was like, why can't they just like, when you open Instagram, say, hey, we've pre-generated a Studio Ghibli version of your latest post or your or your Instagram profile? Do you want to share on your story? Like those little like product led growth hacks that would be compute intensive, you'd have to, you have to inference all of that.

• 21:07Jordi Hays?

  Got a lot of compute.

• 21:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, you got a lot of compute, but actually.

• 21:09Jordi Hays?

  At the time, at the time that there's whispers of selling compute, they're also buying ultra long-term contracts.

• 21:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So, so, you know, I, I think, uh,

• 21:24Jordi Hays?

  watching the, the, the social network was like formative on all of us. Zuck is, is a legend in his own way. But it's just like push, putting this out while it's coming out like less than two months ago that you're working on a gambling integration on Instagram. Like, please, it doesn't make, uh, there, there's no.

• 21:47John Coogan?

  Yeah, but you could say.

• 21:47Jordi Hays?

  There's no, there's no strategy. And then the other irony of this, the thing that stood out to me is he said, still, it is surprising that the discourse from many developing AI is so filled with doom. I do not understand why anyone who believes that AI will eliminate most of human, uh, most jobs and much of humanities relevant would rush to build that. The AI doom over the last two weeks has been around these loss of control incidents.

• 22:09John Coogan?

  Which are much more serious.

• 22:10Jordi Hays?

  Which are, which are serious.

• 22:12John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 22:12Jordi Hays?

  And, and real. And so to stand up there and be like, actually, guys, nothing to worry about.

• 22:18John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 22:18Jordi Hays?

  I got this. AI is awesome.

• 22:21John Coogan?

  Yeah. And also the.

• 22:23Jordi Hays?

  Don't worry about it.

• 22:24John Coogan?

  Like the.

• 22:25Jordi Hays?

  The birth rate might be collapsing and I might have something to do with it, but don't worry about it.

• 22:32John Coogan?

  I mean, there is, there is another side to it, to the, to like the, if you believe in doom, you shouldn't work in, in doom prevention is like, oh, you, you're, you're house burned down as a kid and now you're a firefighter. Isn't that ironic? It's like, no, like you're, you're actually working to prevent the bad thing that you were affected by or you're, we're worried about. Like if you're worried about wildfires, then you go and work on wildfire prevention. That's actually fine. That makes a lot of sense. That tracks logically. So it, it, it's, it's not that much of a red flag that someone would be like, I'm really worried about the way AI will go. So I need to work in that industry and build something that prevents the bad outcome from happening.

• 23:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 23:13John Coogan?

  It, it, like, like it or not, it's like, it, it is logically consistent, uh, even, even if sometimes it can be seen as like a path to regulatory capture sometimes or a path to, you know, like, like actually might wind up accidentally getting the negative outcome because people get too scared or something like that. Or it overvalues you. There's a million negative outcomes that can string from this, but.

• 23:35Jordi Hays?

  And yeah, part of this is like, we've, we've met Zach multiple times. We've had great conversations with him. I like him. I like Boz. I like Adam. I like a lot of people over at MSL.

• 23:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:48Jordi Hays?

  But this whole strategy continues to confuse. It's deeply unfocused. It's deeply memetic. And it doesn't seem like it's gonna get any better anytime soon.

• 24:03John Coogan?

  Hmm. Well, I mean, it'll all hinge on the next model and also, and also like, does the Neo Cloud strategy work? Because people were skeptical about Elon getting into AI. They're like, XAI, really? Like this deal so highly valued, the models aren't frontier. And now, you know, semi analysis last Friday put out this insane bull case where they're gonna make a trillion dollars in a couple of years. And I, I don't know, like, like, yeah, it's, it's a really, really bold claim to think that they will be able to scale that fast. But like on the current revenue base, it's working. Like they have customers that are happy and deploying.

• 24:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 24:40John Coogan?

  Models and, and when you're good at building data centers, that's a huge advantage. There's a lot of, there's a lot of companies that aren't, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of business to be done.

• 24:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, part of it is that I just don't, I don't know how much time, uh, I don't know how much time Meta actually has. Like they have a lot, all of their best talent is on these like, you know, multi hundred or billion dollar comp packages. And there's gonna, everyone in there is gonna have a number where if they truly care about AI, they probably will want to go to a company that has a more coherent strategy around AI and work with other talented people that aren't just there because they're getting these like nine figure or even bigger contracts. And so we're about a year into like the major talent raids, right?

• 25:22John Coogan?

  What happens if the top ups are 10 billion plus? So we want you for another two years.

• 25:28Jordi Hays?

  That's my concern. They might have to be. They might have to be.

• 25:30John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 25:31Jordi Hays?

  Because eventually those people are just gonna say like, look, I actually want to go back and work with my friends.

• 25:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, maybe.

• 25:36Jordi Hays?

  And anyways.

• 25:38John Coogan?

  Oh, well, let me tell you about Railway. Railway is the all in one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agents to deploy web apps, servers, databases and more while Railway automatically takes care, takes care of scaling, monitoring and security. The Wall Street Journal had a huge scoop, huge, huge piece. Andrew Zucker writes in the lifestyle section, this summer's hottest arm candy is a private equity boyfriend. Reese Witherspoon, Nicole Kidman and Olivia Rodrigo are all hanging out with finance guys. Jordy chimed in on this. It was remarkable. Every single person got Jordy's joke. I thought it was a little like inside baseball and you'd have to have more context to understand

• 26:21John Coogan?

  it, but it was like this rare weird scenario where everyone understood that you were joking and.

• 26:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I didn't get any pushback.

• 26:29John Coogan?

  There was no pushback.

• 26:30Jordi Hays?

  Called any names.

• 26:30John Coogan?

  It almost would have been better if there was pushback, but it was just uniform praise for your quote across everything. Now.

• 26:38Jordi Hays?

  A lot of people were saying brave.

• 26:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:40Jordi Hays?

  Finally, someone said it.

• 26:43Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So I don't know that there was a, um, it's like you take a lot of celebrities that are based in New York.

• 26:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Jordi Hays?

  At least a few of them are gonna end up dating some people in, in finance. So I don't know how much of a, of a, of a real trend this is, or if this is new or not, but it certainly got, uh, the people going. Should we start maybe with what Mr. Wonderful said?

• 27:10John Coogan?

  Oh yeah, what did he say?

• 27:12Jordi Hays?

  He said, if you live in a celebrity bubble, party after party with the same people, the same 25 people, life gets really boring.

• 27:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:20Jordi Hays?

  When you end up with a private equity guy, your life gets far more interesting.

• 27:24John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 27:25Jordi Hays?

  So he, I don't think was, uh, rage baiting.

• 27:28John Coogan?

  No.

• 27:28Jordi Hays?

  Uh, I think he, uh, so maybe that's how some people, uh, would have, would have taken my quote out of, out of context. And then what did I say?

• 27:40John Coogan?

  The piece centers around.

• 27:41Jordi Hays?

  I almost don't want to read that quote out loud, but you should, you should read, you should read my quote.

• 27:47John Coogan?

  Well, first, let me tell everyone about console. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. Your quote that burned up the internet was, whether they want to admit it or not, many women have always been attracted to bad boys and risk takers, said Jordy Hayes, co-host of the technology industry talk show, TVPN. I can't think of any archetype of man that fits that description more than today's, today than capital allocators that put it all on the line every day in the markets. And I like that your screenshot included the, the, uh, the scroll wheel showing that you're, you're hunting around for this.

• 28:31Jordi Hays?

  Uh, and then, so I posted this.

• 28:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:33Jordi Hays?

  And I said, I weighed in on one of the defining stories of our time. And so putting such a silly caption above a silly story and a silly quote, I just, I just assumed that it would, that it would be quite obvious that it was, that it was satire. But let's pull up, uh, let's pull up this, uh, four by, uh, two by two and we can, we can

• 28:58John Coogan?

  Walk people through it.

• 28:59Jordi Hays?

  Some of the different reactions. So, uh, one, top left, let's give it up for the elite quadrant. This is all of you. I mean, uh, zoom out, zoom out a little bit, a little bit more.

• 29:11John Coogan?

  People that understand.

• 29:11Jordi Hays?

  People that understand the joke. Zoom up, uh, or go, go up and people that love it. These, you guys are saying, we get it and we get you. And that made me feel really great. Now go down. This was also a, um, powerful part of the, of the people that were supporting it. Um, people that, uh, people that don't understand the joke.

• 29:35John Coogan?

  Well, there's some people that just think it's true.

• 29:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's some, and there was a lot, there was a shocking amount of people.

• 29:40John Coogan?

  Uh, this is.

• 29:41Jordi Hays?

  Can you guys just zoom fully out and, and.

• 29:43John Coogan?

  There you go.

• 29:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So there, there, this was people that love it and people that don't understand the joke. And I just want to say bless, bless their hearts. Uh, they don't get it, but they vibe with it. Uh, and then, and then we had some respectable haters, people that, that hated it. Um, but they, they, they get, they get the joke, but they just hate that they do. And then, and then there was the bottom, right? Um, which, uh, was, uh, was tearing it up in the replies, loud, wrong and very confident.

• 30:13John Coogan?

  That's great. Well, uh, well, we should.

• 30:16Jordi Hays?

  Good time. And I thought it was, it was a fun story.

• 30:18John Coogan?

  We should, we should take people through this article a little bit more because, uh, the piece centers on, uh, Oliver Harmon of Searchlight Capital, of course, everyone knows him. Uh, but he is apparently dating Reese Witherspoon. And so, uh, just to get everyone to, up to speed, Witherspoon, uh, is an Oscar winning American actress who became famous in the 1990s and 2000s, including films in, uh, like Election, Pleasantville, Legally Blonde, Walk the Line. Uh, so now you should be up to speed on her. Uh, Michael Reinstein, of course, of, uh, private equity from Regent, uh, is dating someone named Nicole Kidman, which, uh, our, our audience might not be familiar with. She's actually.

• 30:57Jordi Hays?

  Break it.

• 30:57John Coogan?

  An Australian born actress whose career stretches across prestige cinema, blockbuster films. Seems like she's been really successful. So good to see her profiled alongside Michael Reinstein of, uh, private equity from Regent.

• 31:10Jordi Hays?

  I think a lot of, a lot of the people that, that watched TVPN.

• 31:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Jordi Hays?

  Were reading that article to, to learn about.

• 31:16John Coogan?

  These celebrities. Yeah.

• 31:18Jordi Hays?

  Celebrities.

• 31:18John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's a fascinating world. That's, it's just tucked behind, you know, so much obscurity. You don't hear about them if you're in the finance world. And so, uh, good to see, uh, folks like that get, you know, some, some, some coverage and really educate the audience. Uh, no, it was a lot of fun. Over the weekend with the Wall Street Journal, people going back and forth. Uh, uh, Joe Weisenthal, Joe Weisenthal had the best, the best take that, uh, this is the classic, uh, cynical pattern. I think he said, I think he's meaning cyclical pattern. Back in the mid aughts, there was a raft of stories about celebrities dating real estate executives and shipping heirs like Stavros Niarkos and Paris Latzis.

• 32:01Jordi Hays?

  We gotta find what all these guys have in common, John. We gotta find what, what they have in common because they're working across so many different industries.

• 32:08John Coogan?

  They're booming.

• 32:09Jordi Hays?

  Right. But what is the common ground?

• 32:10John Coogan?

  The industry is booming.

• 32:12Jordi Hays?

  Could it be something to do with their fee streams?

• 32:16John Coogan?

  Well, yeah, well, you know, so someone had a much more nuanced take from this, which was that, uh, celebrities are becoming, uh, like multi-platform, multi-disciplinary. There actually are multiple income streams. And so this was not, I, I gave a quote too that they didn't use, but someone, someone chimed in and said like, yes, a lot of these people are, a lot of these celebrities are doing, um, much more complex deals, uh, starting brands, starting companies, building, holding companies. And so they actually wind up interacting with like the finance bros much more, much more often. And it's not so much like, oh, you got set up with someone with money. It's much more like, oh, you work on deals together and you talk about the same things because when you're a celebrity at a certain level,

• 33:00John Coogan?

  yeah, you're going on set and filming a movie for a couple of weeks.

• 33:03Jordi Hays?

  But you are also talking about your, all your, your catalog of IP, your royalty stream.

• 33:09John Coogan?

  No, you actually start thinking like a 3%.

• 33:11Jordi Hays?

  Royalties are often, yeah, they're often forever, right?

• 33:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:14Jordi Hays?

  Unlike, uh, unlike management fees with, at some point or another.

• 33:18John Coogan?

  Ooh.

• 33:19Jordi Hays?

  That, that, uh, revenue line comes to a close.

• 33:22John Coogan?

  Pulling the purse strings. Anyway, let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Uh, we have another story here that we should go through. South Korea's AI boom is reshaping the dating market as engineers from Samsung and SK Hynix become some of the country's most eligible bachelors. According to the Wall Street Journal, engineers at the two semiconductor companies are increasingly being viewed alongside doctors, lawyers and accountants as top marriage prospects. Samsung employees are expected to receive average bonuses of roughly $400,000 this year, while SK Hynix work, workers could average closer to $500,000. Chip engineers

• 34:04John Coogan?

  have historically ranked below more traditional high status professions in South Korea's highly competitive marriage market, but local matchmaking agencies now say that a gap has large, that that gap has largely disappeared, while the trend has become a recurring joke in Korean pop culture and dating shows. Interesting. Uh, the newfound status is creating some awkward side effects. Some engineers say they are reluctant.

• 34:28Jordi Hays?

  These poor guys.

• 34:28John Coogan?

  It's, it's rough. It's rough out there in Korea. Uh, some engineers say they are reluctant to reveal where they work on first dates because they worry potential partners may be more interested in their compensation than in them. Others have increasingly started dating fellow chip industry employees instead, meeting someone in the fab, a real meet cute. You, you're carrying a tray of wafers, bump into someone and it's love at first sight. You look up as, as your, as your, as your scattered HBM is being.

• 34:59Jordi Hays?

  It is very funny. They included, they just included a picture of, of a young woman here that says Kim Young Won, a photographer in Seoul, laments not having any contacts at chip makers.

• 35:09John Coogan?

  Wow. Really, really.

• 35:12Jordi Hays?

  Really framing her as part of the problem.

• 35:15John Coogan?

  Well, well, the photo credit is her. So she must've posted this on social media or something. And then the, uh, and then the, the journal got a hold of it. It's a fun one. Uh, anyway, the other, the other big story is that an AI assistant in Australia hacked a gym's booking system on its own after being given the simple task of reserving a class in what is believed to be the country's first known autonomous cyber attack by an AI agent.

• 35:42Jordi Hays?

  Naughty, naughty.

• 35:44John Coogan?

  Naughty, naughty indeed. Uh, funny. In college, I built a system that would register for classes automatically, but it was just a Python for loop that would just refresh the page when the classes would become available because they would go online at like 7:00 AM and I wanted to sleep in, just lazy bones mode. Um, and I think, I think there's a story about Mark Zuckerberg doing a similar thing, sort of like hacking this, the, the, the admission system or some sort of a class registration system. But now with AI agents, you can just have the AI agent do it yourself.

• 36:14Jordi Hays?

  Anyone can.

• 36:14John Coogan?

  Anyone can. It's been democratized. Everyone can sleep in. Uh, this is.

• 36:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. I think, I think Rune was saying like the, the tennis court booking software in SF is going to be the most like battle.

• 36:24John Coogan?

  It'll be like NSA. You won't be able to break into it. So earlier.

• 36:27Jordi Hays?

  SF tennis reservation system will become one of the most hardened softwares on the planet of earth.

• 36:32John Coogan?

  I believe it. I believe it. So earlier this year, Andrew Bird, who's the head of AI at Affinda, used an AI agent powered by Opus 4.6 to book a morning class at his gym. Instead of simply filling out the online form, the agent discovered a vulnerability in the gym's software that allowed it to reserve classes weeks or months earlier than customers were normally permitted. So you could go in and book your class for two months out, even though by default, the web interface would restrict you to just, hey, we only want you booking this week. Uh, the agent went further though, according to this post, after Andrew asked whether it was possible to move him higher on a waitlist. The AI discovered that the booking system did not properly verify who was allowed to cancel reservations.

• 37:16John Coogan?

  And so without being explicitly told to, it removed another person from the waitlist, moving Andrew from fourth to third place. Andrew immediately asked the AI to reverse the action, but the agent said it was unable to restore the other customer's reservation. Now there's some back and forth on this, uh, on how real this is because the, the actual post that went up is, has no longer live. I had to find it in the Wayback Machine, but it's been reported on, uh, by ABC News, I believe in, in, in, uh, in Australia, abc.net.au and.

• 37:52Jordi Hays?

  So you're saying it's a hundred percent factual if that's.

• 37:54John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's, it's quite, it's a question. Like you could also be doing a little bit of content marketing. It's an interesting story. You might've helped it a little bit. All these things are sort of gray areas, but, uh, it's certainly a glimpse into sort of like what is possible in the future, especially with these long tail, uh, SaaS platforms that probably don't even think that they need to be hardened because who on earth is going to deploy a, a country of geniuses in a data center to get a, to get a gym membership or, or gym reservation. But now, uh, everyone can. So it's happening. Um, and, uh, it, it's another, it's another data point. Um, Greg Brockman, uh, is, uh, announcing that he's

• 38:35John Coogan?

  releasing a new model at OpenAI, GPT 5.6 cyber and expanding Daybreak to help put frontier intelligence in defenders' hands. This is sort of the, the reaction to these types of long tail events. It should become easier for companies to spin up an agent to help them harden their systems, uh, especially if you're giving out, uh, tennis reservations in San Francisco, because those will be the hot ticket. Um, anyway.

• 39:00Jordi Hays?

  Tyler Cowen, uh, has a post this morning.

• 39:04John Coogan?

  Yeah. What'd he say?

• 39:04Jordi Hays?

  Just past midnight, says, I am seeing so many, uh, so much doom and at least severe worries due to the OpenAI hugging face incident and related stories, but virtually all of these I find under argued to say the least. So I have a simple request. If you are worried and wish to persuade the doubters, try the methods of science. He's science checking them. I would like to see the following. Your outline of how, say, two or three years from now, we might estimate the additional cybersecurity costs from all the AI break-ins. I'm convinced that the number is not zero, but give me your method, please. If it helps, here's an estimate of past cyber costs done by top economists. Your current financial, numerical estimate of what those costs might end up being, of course, to be tested against

• 39:46Jordi Hays?

  what actually happens over time. Obviously you can do this for a few regulatory safety scenarios. There's one simple way to prove yourself largely correct. Albeit with a lag. Three, a list of what stocks or other assets you have shorted now. This is, this is an important part. Obviously, if your answer to number two is sufficiently low, you could answer here zero, as I would, as, as I would do.

• 40:11John Coogan?

  Whoa.

• 40:11Jordi Hays?

  I expect costs, but not so high that we cannot muddle through and have expected positive stock returns. This would all help to make the discourse more scientific and less like an extended exercise in personal anxiety management. If it is all so important, surely this exercise is worth the effort.

• 40:29John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 40:30Jordi Hays?

  I, I like it. A lot of people have, um, yeah, we're in this funny moment right now where there's, there's people with no exposure to AI, long or short, that are very, very confident about certain positions, but won't actually take a position, right? And they have various reasons for that. Um, and then, and I, and I do think this would be, I do think this would be quite helpful. The thing with situational awareness that was so awesome is he just like called his shot and he invested against that extremely aggressively. And so I would like to see, I would like to see some of the, the AI bears do their own

• 41:10Jordi Hays?

  version of situation. If they're so smart, do their own version of situational awareness. Even if they're trying to like hyperstition a crash, right?

• 41:19John Coogan?

  I mean, Michael Burry was doing that for a while, for sure. Cassandra.

• 41:24Jordi Hays?

  Whatever.

• 41:25John Coogan?

  But I think maybe time did a little bit wrong. I'm not exactly sure what happened with the fund. Um, I saw a funny, I saw a funny post that was, uh, showing a screenshot of radiation pills being sold to true preppers. So in the

• 41:42Jordi Hays?

  I don't even think true preppers. These were, here, I have the post here.

• 41:46John Coogan?

  You have the post?

• 41:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, pull it up.

• 41:48John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 41:49Jordi Hays?

  I put it in there.

• 41:50John Coogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 41:51Jordi Hays?

  They're selling millennial branded emergency radiation exposure medication, pills you take when nuclear war starts to increase your odds of survival with buy now, pay later options.

• 42:00John Coogan?

  Yes, but economically, that's exactly what you want to do with a doomsday prepping product. You want as much debt as possible because you assume that the apocalypse is going to come. Clara's not going to come after you. Of course, you don't want to pay with cash upfront. You want to be a max debt. Like, this is actually extremely

• 42:20Jordi Hays?

  Highly leveraged preppers. There's gotta be a few.

• 42:23John Coogan?

  Yes, yes.

• 42:24Jordi Hays?

  There's gotta be a few.

• 42:25John Coogan?

  Yes, yes. You should have a ranch in Argentina on a 50-year mortgage right now. Like, that's, that's the correct way to, to financially ride out the apocalypse because the, the bank's not gonna come.

• 42:36Jordi Hays?

  But you want the mortgage from an American financial institution?

• 42:39John Coogan?

  From anybody. Anybody who's not going to be around to collect post-apocalypse. Like, this is extremely consistent, although it is ironic and funny and I, I understand the joke, but, uh, this is actually exactly what you want to be doing if you believe an apocalypse is imminent. You want to be max levered and, and, and max debt because no one's going to come back and collect it, right? So, funny. Uh, anyway, uh, yeah, a lot of people are pushing back on this post being like, well, I, my, my doom scenario is so extreme, I won't be around to collect the short position, so it's not worth doing. Uh, and that is

• 43:14Jordi Hays?

  Have a little faith in, in our financial system.

• 43:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, the asteroid comes and you're like, yes, my puts are paying out. Uh, no, I, I don't know. It's a reasonable, but like unless you're full, full doom, like, yeah, you should be able to express this as a bad

• 43:31Jordi Hays?

  Okay, quick pause.

• 43:32John Coogan?

  What's up?

• 43:33Jordi Hays?

  Because I, we, we need to, uh, say some kind words to Tyler.

• 43:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:38Jordi Hays?

  Last week.

• 43:39John Coogan?

  What happened?

• 43:40Jordi Hays?

  Earlier in the week.

• 43:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:42Jordi Hays?

  I made some snide comments about Tyler's software that we use to run the show.

• 43:45John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:46Jordi Hays?

  He logged in and shipped an entirely new app, a native app, and this is our first time using it on the show today. It is incredible.

• 43:54John Coogan?

  It's amazing. It's actually amazing.

• 43:56Jordi Hays?

  It's well thought through. It's very easy. It's very easy to use. This is my first time using it. I have no, no hiccups.

• 44:01John Coogan?

  It's really good.

• 44:02Jordi Hays?

  Um, so, so fingers crossed, but you cooked.

• 44:05John Coogan?

  You absolutely cooked. And, uh, tell us about the architecture. It's, uh, do you know what programming language was used?

• 44:12Jordi Hays?

  Um, I, I think it's Swift, right? So it's, it's native Mac app.

• 44:16John Coogan?

  It's native Mac app. We've been using a Chrome extension, a browser plugin. Uh, it's been a little slow, a little clunky, but we got, it's not even an Electron app. So call John Gruber. We're getting a pat on the back for going native. Native. I got the DMG. I installed it myself. And, uh, actually Tyler was over my shoulder. He helped install it, but it is

• 44:38Jordi Hays?

  Tyler was burning the midnight oil. I think one of my comments just pushed him over the edge.

• 44:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:44Jordi Hays?

  And he locked in.

• 44:45John Coogan?

  Management by nagging.

• 44:46Jordi Hays?

  He restored his honor.

• 44:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:48Jordi Hays?

  Well done, Tyler. Um, SpaceX is up, uh, 13% uh, in the past five days, almost certainly in part due to semi-analysis. Major, major bullish updates.

• 45:04John Coogan?

  Crazy bull case.

• 45:05Jordi Hays?

  I, uh, yeah, not, uh, they've been contrarian lately, right?

• 45:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, totally.

• 45:12Jordi Hays?

  With Meta, now SpaceX.

• 45:14John Coogan?

  So the headline here, SpaceX turns a compute company into eight quarter, in eight quarters, uh, into a

• 45:21Jordi Hays?

  Turns into a compute company in eight quarters.

• 45:24John Coogan?

  AI compute goes from nothing to 77% of run rate revenue. And, uh, the, the illustrative 10 gigawatt path. I mean, he's really good at building data centers and, uh, they're, they're predicting that, uh, that lots, that Microsoft will be the largest off-taker. Uh, OpenAI, Anantrropic will wind up doing deals with them. Uh, 500 billion in ARR for SpaceX. And the number that was getting thrown around was a trillion, a trillion in ARR or something by 2030 something, uh, which is, uh, staggering, staggering. They're gonna have to rebrand it, rebrand it though. Land X. Cause they're not going to space with this. This is all built just on the ground. I'm, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure this

• 46:07John Coogan?

  is all pre-space data center. Space data center is like, is the act five or whatever, whatever act we're on. The act two. So land X or ground X, but, uh, either way, it's working and, uh, very, very exciting to see.

• 46:21Jordi Hays?

  Um, yeah, and Elon did say that, that, uh, their internal projections, which they're operating from, uh, get them to a trillion by 2030. He said, or we may be delusional.

• 46:31John Coogan?

  I love it.

• 46:33Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, and yeah, there, there's certainly a lot of reasons, uh, a lot of reasons to be bullish. There's certainly a lot of reasons to be skeptical, right? You had, um, you know, look at, look at the way that he talked about, uh, the Cybertruck. He said, you know, they were going to be selling hundreds of thousands of those units a year. Uh, they've been selling units. I actually ordered, I ordered one.

• 46:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's so crazy. They don't have a six-seater, seven-seater Cybertruck configuration. Like, it's just, I, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about like a family, you want one other kid to come with you. And it's like, okay, back in the, back in the extended wheelbase SUV or back in the minivan, like.

• 47:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. I was thinking about it. One of, one of Elon's advantages building data centers is that he seems to not care about, um, like getting canceled, right? So look at everything that's been happening in Memphis. Like, you cannot imagine Satya. You can't imagine Zuck going in there and, and building their Memphis projects the way that they have, right? It's been done.

• 47:34John Coogan?

  Very aggressively.

• 47:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, extremely aggressively. The local community is not happy. I'm sure they can figure out a way to work a lot of that out over time, but, uh, a lot of people just don't have the stomach to be effectively

• 47:50John Coogan?

  It's funny you're using the term stomach because, uh, the Wall Street Journal has an article here about Elon Musk's stomach. First, whether you're long SpaceX, short SpaceX, do it on public. Investing for those that take it seriously. They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries and more with great customer service. So, uh, SpaceX may be a rocket company, but nowadays it feels more like a roller coaster, says Tim Higgins in the Wall Street Journal. This past week alone, chief executive Elon Musk watched as its shares plummeted almost 14% in one day, which wasn't even the worst performance in SpaceX's short 10 years of publicly traded company. By Friday, the shared had, the shares had soared more than 20% from where they began the week. Put another way, that

• 48:33John Coogan?

  was a more than $300 billion market value swing. For most CEOs, that would be a vomit inducing ride for Musk. It's a nagging reminder that he's back in grind mode, having to deliver on all of his high-flying promises for SpaceX's performance. Yeah, I mean, he does have the stomach for it and, uh, it does give a good, uh, a good cover to the other hyperscalers. This was a lot of the NeoCloud thesis for a while was that, uh, some of the NeoClouds, like a lot of the hyperscalers had made really, really aggressive, uh, environmental pledges that they were tied into and locked into because ESG funds had invested. And if they

• 49:14John Coogan?

  go back on their ESG commitments, then, uh, then those ESG investors would have to divest and the stock price could fall. But You all of a sudden, like you had underwritten the whole ESG plan on the back of, "Well, we just do cloud storage for images and some ad recommendations. And yeah, we store people's docs in the cloud." Like, this is going to be easy. Throw some solar panels on the top, you know, build it. Okay, we'll build a custom chip for the YouTube encoding algorithm. Like, it's no big deal. It's not going to use that much energy. And then it's like, artificial intelligence uses like a million times more resources for everything. And so you have compute scaling, three X every year now. And as a result, the question is like,

• 49:57John Coogan?

  can the hyperscalers develop the new data centers internally? Or will they have to go to NeoClouds and the SpaceX NeoCloud sort of fits in there? Anyway, what were you thinking about?

• 50:07Jordi Hays?

  Here's the actual quote I was referencing earlier. Elon says, "No, I meant actual revenue in the year 2030 itself, not cumulative, which would be a higher number. Of course, it's always possible that we flounder along the way or are delusional, but those are our actual internal projections." Ben was bringing up some recent truth, you know, pre-launch, the Cybertruck had over 1 million reservations, demand off the charts. They were targeting a quarter million units a year, once ramped by 2025. And in 2024, they sold 39,000 units, not bad, but in 2025, they only sold 20,000.

• 50:47Jordi Hays?

  So cumulative is under 70,000. So the peak year was about 15% of the stated annual target. I'm trying to get these numbers up. I ordered a Cybertruck. I need the self-driving.

• 51:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, self-driving is really, really good.

• 51:02Jordi Hays?

  And I am getting more and more bullish on Tesla's car business. And last year, there were so many reasons to be bearish, but as we've like, I've just talked with enough people in automotive world now, and none of them think that good self-driving is coming to any of their cars for like a very, very long time.

• 51:23John Coogan?

  Almost all of them think it's coming this century, though.

• 51:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this century.

• 51:26John Coogan?

  This century.

• 51:27Jordi Hays?

  This century. And so I think there's a lot of reasons for what it's worth to be bullish on the car business in the near term.

• 51:34John Coogan?

  You just gotta do some more styles or something. The reduction in the portfolio is so rough. No convertible, no off-road vehicle, no SUV. Like, there's just so little that you like, you just get blocked into this like bland thing. But I don't know, I worked with the iPhone, so who knows? Who knows? Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it. Vogue World, we gotta talk about Vogue World.

• 52:04Jordi Hays?

  Here we go.

• 52:04John Coogan?

  Vogue World is taking place in San Francisco this year. Quote, "Vogue believes in celebrating cities, and San Francisco is a city like none other," says Anna Wintor. SF really is a city like none other. Emily Sundberg writes with 1234567 periods, which feels like a day.

• 52:26Jordi Hays?

  SF wasn't going to be back until Anna said it's back.

• 52:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:31Jordi Hays?

  And so this is a bold, bold statement.

• 52:33John Coogan?

  That's true.

• 52:34Jordi Hays?

  One of the most beautiful cities in the world. Grew up in the Bay Area, so it's kind of, maybe I'm a little bit biased.

• 52:43John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 52:43Jordi Hays?

  But it deserves, it deserves the Vogue treatment. For those not familiar, Vogue World will be this livestream event. It's very, you know, theatrical. There's going to be celebrations. And I'm excited to see some of our favorite entrepreneurs and investors put on their vests.

• 53:01John Coogan?

  The Patagonia vests and walk in the runway in those?

• 53:04Jordi Hays?

  Maybe that, or ditch the quiet luxury and go for some loud opulence.

• 53:10John Coogan?

  Ooh, I like that. Yeah. I mean, Jensen's got the leather jacket. He's looking good.

• 53:14Jordi Hays?

  I could see Jensen getting chromed up for this.

• 53:18John Coogan?

  Yeah, maybe, maybe. What brand does he wear again?

• 53:22Jordi Hays?

  Tom Ford.

• 53:23John Coogan?

  Tom Ford jackets. Yeah, those are nice. Those are nice. Yeah.

• 53:26Jordi Hays?

  But this will be fun. We'll be there.

• 53:28John Coogan?

  I wonder who.

• 53:29Jordi Hays?

  And yeah, I'm excited to cover it.

• 53:32John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's gonna be great.

• 53:33Jordi Hays?

  Hopefully, it's not the last.

• 53:38Jordi Hays?

  And it's like, we can never do this again.

• 53:41John Coogan?

  No, no.

• 53:41Jordi Hays?

  The city has no aura.

• 53:44John Coogan?

  The beauty of San Francisco, it really does have such a diverse community of, you know, you have the Burning Man crowd, the VC crowd, the startup founders, like, there's all these different worlds. There's the

• 53:55Jordi Hays?

  Product managers.

• 53:58John Coogan?

  The product managers, the product engineers, the quality assurance engineers, the quality assurance testers, the reinforcement learning engineering environment.

• 54:05Jordi Hays?

  They have Instagram.

• 54:06John Coogan?

  Pre-training and post-training. These are the wild communities. You want to hear from them both. They have unique styles, for sure. You can clock some.

• 54:14Jordi Hays?

  No, but part of the actual, like, tech has an insane amount of influence on fashion, right? Like, when you look at Instagram's impact on the world broadly, the whole world's starting to look the same in many ways because of Instagram.

• 54:27John Coogan?

  That's very interesting.

• 54:28Jordi Hays?

  Styles globally are starting to look more and more similar because Instagram connects everyone all the time. So a tastemaker around the world, somewhere else in the world, might be influencing your style, even though you'll never in your life cross paths with them.

• 54:45John Coogan?

  Interesting. Yeah. Well, there's a little bit more news from the situational awareness story. First, David Sacks on the All In Podcast had a good take here. A lot of people were saying like, Leopold was using 4X leverage. That was the number that was getting thrown around. And when I heard that, I thought it was, he buys Micron and he buys, he buys $40 billion of Micron with $10 billion of cash and $30 billion of debt. And so he's 4X levered on that long semiconductor memory bet. It seems like it's a little bit more of 2X levered long, 2X levered short.

• 55:25John Coogan?

  So you're a long-short hedge fund, but both the long positions and the short positions are directionally the same trade because you're levered long Micron and you're levered short Adobe. And so if the trade weakens, you get hurt in both directions. So it's the same effect, but I think it was just an interesting little piece of nuance.

• 55:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, very interesting. And yeah, just turn the risk up a lot. The crazy thing is like, if you look at what the actual, what the AI companies, the labs are doing, the Neo Labs, pretty much every AI company is still using a lot of legacy software.

• 56:03John Coogan?

  For sure.

• 56:03Jordi Hays?

  If you just talk to these teams, part of it's like, yeah, we could replace this thing, this product, but it's not a good use of engineering resources. The bet against SaaS is that one day it will be so easy that it is a good use of engineering resources because, you know, you can create it quickly and it maybe can self-maintain, but.

• 56:24John Coogan?

  And a lot of these are just like ensemble products. Like, so we're having the founder and CEO of Neural Frames on. It's an AI video generation platform. If you watched our Most Feared Lawyer music video for John Quinn, I generated the video using C-Dance, but through Neural Frames as like the harness. But even after generating it in Neural Frames, which has its own editor that's web-based that they were clearly able to vibe code very quickly, it works really well. I still wound up installing Premiere Pro for the last step of melding a couple different renders together, getting it all sequenced out, doing the final touches. And so there's a lot of these situations where

• 57:05John Coogan?

  you might have an agent that's doing a lot of interesting things, and then, yeah, you actually want the endpoint to be Salesforce or you want it to be Adobe. And so you're still in that legacy platform, which, you know, you're like, ah, it's costing me 20 bucks a month, but whatever. Yeah, this one. So there were two different video styles that you can do. One, that's him just not lip syncing and just visual reference and just an illustration of the story. There's another version that you can have it render where the character sings along to the lyrics. Now, it's pretty sloppy and it doesn't get it right all the time. Sometimes it nails it.

• 57:46John Coogan?

  So I only wanted to use the generated video where the lip sync was pretty good. And so for those, I dialed it in and I edited those on top. So this, this clip turned out pretty well. And the next one turned out pretty well, but there were lots of the lip sync videos.

• 58:04Jordi Hays?

  Pretty well is sort of underselling it.

• 58:07John Coogan?

  I mean, it's still sloppy. Like, it's all sloppy. But there were plenty of others that were like wildly wrong, like the wrong person singing or just like didn't match up at all. And so I wanted to cut those out, use a little bit, blend it all together. And ultimately, I landed in Adobe Premiere again, you know, even though they have their own editor. And so it was, it was an interesting detail. The other piece of the situational awareness story, do you want to move on or go back?

• 58:33Jordi Hays?

  Go for it. I have one more post before our first guest.

• 58:35John Coogan?

  Okay, great. So the other story is from Kate Clark, who is over at the Wall Street Journal now, following the money. And Kate Clark reported on a scoop. She says, "Situational Awareness made a big bet this week on Source Foundry, a startup aiming to reinvent the way chips are manufactured." Sequoia is an earlier investor. They bet $400 on a stealth chip startup after the crash. And so this is, I believe, an ASML competitor. And Situational Awareness now has invested $500 million in total. They have a bunch of Stanford researchers on the team. People are generally very bullish on this company. It seems like a great bet. But, but there was this question of like, what is the sequence?

• 59:16John Coogan?

  Because this is very much framed as like a, whoa, okay, Situational Awareness is back. They, you know, they sold their public book to Citadel and they're already writing new checks. But there is a question about the sequence of events here. In my experience, Closing a $400 million round, I've never done a round of that size, but even like a $20 million round might take a few months. Like you have a handshake deal, you sign a term sheet, you do some due diligence, even if you're moving really, really fast, that's usually something that

• 59:45Jordi Hays?

  You think it takes Leopold a month to make a $400 million?

• 59:48John Coogan?

  At the same time, if there was ever, if there was ever a wedding to Marshall $400 million in one deal and sign and wire in two days, it would have been his wedding, but it's entirely possible that this happened earlier and is just coming out now. So still, still not a lot of, like since Leopold shared that one letter with LPs, there's still a lot of uncertainty about where the overall fund is going, what the strategy is, will they be in public companies? Will they be using leverage at all? A whole bunch of questions around rebuilding. And I'm sure that there's a lot of LPs that got in late, don't have that anthropic stake, don't have as much of the private book, might be sitting down, not up 80%, but actually down

• 1:00:31John Coogan?

  on their investment, down 80%, down 90%.

• 1:00:35Jordi Hays?

  Bringing leverage to privates, right? The way Mas is one of the few, the brave that indulges in leverage in the private market.

• 1:00:44John Coogan?

  You think that's what his message was? I'm not going to use leverage in public markets anymore. And they're like, wow, that's so brave. You really learned your lesson. I'm going to use leverage in private markets. And you're like, no.

• 1:00:55Jordi Hays?

  I mean, less volatility.

• 1:00:56John Coogan?

  Less volatility. But still, I mean, you can effectively have a bank run if you have redemption rules, because as a hedge fund, typically you can get your money back a lot faster than a private VC firm. So I don't know.

• 1:01:07Jordi Hays?

  Well, you're the boss. I'm just the guy who's right. Now, Paul Graham, apparently is 14 year old, iconic quote, "You're the boss. I'm just the guy who's right."

• 1:01:19John Coogan?

  That's a great quote.

• 1:01:20Jordi Hays?

  That's a great line.

• 1:01:21John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:01:22Jordi Hays?

  I think the team, full permission to try to deliver this line, John or I.

• 1:01:29John Coogan?

  You gotta deliver with authority, with some gusto, for sure. Also, fun, fun post here. Tim Urban from Wait But Why was on The Apprentice? How did we not know this until just now? I love this picture so much. Tim Urban's looking great there in the suit. I gotta go back and watch this entire season, figure out what happened to Tim Urban on of Wait But Why. You've seen his viral charts, his graphics, his mafia appearance. He was in the Founder's Fund Mafia episode. Lots of fun with Tim Urban, but funny to see him, you know, spotted there in, what, mid 2000s television? I don't know. Did you ever watch The Apprentice?

• 1:02:11Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 1:02:12John Coogan?

  I don't think I ever watched.

• 1:02:13Jordi Hays?

  Was it worth watching?

• 1:02:14John Coogan?

  No, but you should watch the movie, The Apprentice.

• 1:02:15Jordi Hays?

  I have seen that.

• 1:02:16John Coogan?

  That's a fantastic.

• 1:02:17Jordi Hays?

  You told me to watch that.

• 1:02:18John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's a great movie. Great movie. And I think that that just about does the job. Anyway, we have our first guest, Ryan Spoon from Yahoo here with us live in the TVP in Ultra Dome. Get this button ready. Yahoo! We can't remember. Yahoo! You want to open this, Jordy?

• 1:02:37Speaker 03

  In honor of.

• 1:02:38John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on down. How you doing?

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  This is awesome.

• 1:02:42John Coogan?

  Thank you.

• 1:02:43Speaker 03

  And super appreciative to be here.

• 1:02:45John Coogan?

  Please introduce yourself for everyone.

• 1:02:47Speaker 03

  Ryan Spoon. I'm president of Yahoo Media Group, which includes Yahoo Finance, Yahoo Sports, and some of our video efforts.

• 1:02:57John Coogan?

  How do you wind up in this role?

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  I have spent a lot. It's a good, the yodel, the yodel.

• 1:03:06John Coogan?

  The yodel.

• 1:03:07Speaker 03

  And so this is.

• 1:03:08John Coogan?

  They never die.

• 1:03:09Speaker 03

  And so this is, we'll talk about sports, and today's obviously an important day for fantasy, but this is our Yahoo Sports, Yahoo Fantasy.

• 1:03:16John Coogan?

  Whoa, there we go. That's great.

• 1:03:18Speaker 03

  So this was started by the gentleman who founded StockX, has a company called Ghost Right. We made these for our talent and our, yeah. And there's 100 of those in the world. You are now one of those.

• 1:03:32Jordi Hays?

  So I mean, I love it. Does Yahoo have a long history of like deal toy type objects between the button and now this? Or is this?

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  They are related but unrelated. The, we, we try to create a bunch of things for different parts of the community. In fantasy, we have 10 million plus people who play fantasy. We have a bunch of subscribers. And so we've created a bunch of merch, chach, to send to those fans. And then we got, you know, we do 60 hours of live shows a week at this point, just sports. And we want.

• 1:04:07Jordi Hays?

  Crazy.

• 1:04:08Speaker 03

  We don't have this, but we want the backgrounds and so forth.

• 1:04:12John Coogan?

  Yeah. How cyclical is the business around sports? I mean, you mentioned like it's a big day. Break down what's happening now, the big moments on the calendar.

• 1:04:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. Football is king.

• 1:04:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Speaker 03

  And we have a heritage around fantasy in particular. And obviously fantasy is biggest around football. So there is cyclicality there. But sports is now almost 365 days. On the, obviously you had the World Cup in July, you had the Knicks and the Spurs in June, but starting September, and we're 30 days out now of NFL kickoff. Fantasy for us is really, really critical. Those users are using the app five out of seven days a week, almost two hours a week. And there's something.

• 1:05:06Jordi Hays?

  I bet the winners are using it quite a bit more. I don't know what they're doing, taking a couple of days off a week.

• 1:05:12Speaker 03

  We give them lots of research, lots of videos to consume, draft guides. But at this point now, there's sports to consume hours a day, every day. And it really is 365 days a year.

• 1:05:26John Coogan?

  What do you, what do fantasy sports users want on the product side, on the features side? Because obviously there's a way that you, you know, stuff AI in every single piece of the UI, it can get a little bit over the top. At the same time, people can go to any AI app of their choosing and sort of ask the same questions. And they get that for free. It's less work for you guys, but there's probably some pull there on, or some tension there for you?

• 1:05:54Speaker 03

  It's really an interesting question, because you could make it so that you press one button.

• 1:06:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01Speaker 03

  And that's not very fun.

• 1:06:02John Coogan?

  No. Yeah. It's like chess.com. If it's like, I get to play a stockfish, like, okay.

• 1:06:06Speaker 03

  And the beauty of fantasy is you have 12 friends, or whatever your number is, and you're chatting, and you're going back and forth.

• 1:06:13John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:06:14Speaker 03

  And that, there's a rhythm to it. This is the great part about fantasy in particular is I can tell you what users do Monday, Tuesday. It's different Wednesday, it's different Thursday. And so we want the toolset to be easy. We want it to make you feel smart or smarter.

• 1:06:32John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  But at the end of the day, we want you to be in control.

• 1:06:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  The other part, our big learning has been, let's just create different formats, create different ways to play.

• 1:06:43John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:44Speaker 03

  So last year, we introduced something called Death Leagues with Liquid Death. It was a lot of fun. It's a very different way to play. Your goal.

• 1:06:51Jordi Hays?

  What it sounds like?

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  Somewhat. Your goal is to not get last every week.

• 1:06:58John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:59Speaker 03

  If you get last, you're kicked out.

• 1:07:00John Coogan?

  Eliminated fully.

• 1:07:01Speaker 03

  Eliminated. And all those players go back to the.

• 1:07:04John Coogan?

  That might be actually better, because a lot of times someone comes in last two times, and then they're not even updating their roster, and then everyone's sort of picking over it, right?

• 1:07:10Speaker 03

  And the strategy is, when that person is kicked out, their players go to the waivers.

• 1:07:15John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:07:16Speaker 03

  So how do you use your budget? How do you figure out?

• 1:07:18John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  Two weeks ago, we announced college football fantasy.

• 1:07:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Speaker 03

  And that is.

• 1:07:25John Coogan?

  That hasn't existed? That feels like.

• 1:07:28Speaker 03

  And it's awesome.

• 1:07:29John Coogan?

  Or is that, is that on the back of NIL stuff? Or was this just like a technical?

• 1:07:32Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Why, why so?

• 1:07:34Speaker 03

  I think there's a bunch of things all happening at the same time. First of all, college has never been bigger.

• 1:07:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:39Speaker 03

  The conferences are realigned and now quite large.

• 1:07:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  And so we created a game that has the power for conferences and Notre Dame.

• 1:07:50John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:07:51Speaker 03

  And we created a couple of different formats for it. So there is also a team offensive flex. So if you are a big UT fan, you can draft Arch Manning and Texas.

• 1:08:04John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  But there are some twists that we need to, because it is different than NFL.

• 1:08:08John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 1:08:09Speaker 03

  It's been really, really fun so far.

• 1:08:11John Coogan?

  What is the, the, the structure of the revenue base for Yahoo Fantasy?

• 1:08:19Speaker 03

  Similar to Yahoo Sports, which is, we are consumption and ad based, predominantly.

• 1:08:26John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:08:27Speaker 03

  But there are subscription products. And I would say this is true of how we treat Yahoo Finance.

• 1:08:31John Coogan?

  And then there's paid partnerships, like the Liquid Death thing.

• 1:08:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that's sponsorship.

• 1:08:34Speaker 03

  We have lots of sponsorship.

• 1:08:36John Coogan?

  That's sponsorship.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  And so you, and you'll see that, same way you do a great job with Reeds and integration and onset. We do that across all of our shows, all of our apps.

• 1:08:45John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  But then there are premium subscriptions. We have a Yahoo Fantasy Plus product, which has different data, different insights and features for fantasy. We do the same on finance as well.

• 1:08:56John Coogan?

  What is the shape of, if everyone in a fantasy league is putting 100 bucks in, the winner takes it all, is there a way that Yahoo facilitates that, takes a cut? Or is all of this off book because of the way that's regulated?

• 1:09:09Speaker 03

  All the above.

• 1:09:12John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:13Speaker 03

  We have public leagues.

• 1:09:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:15Speaker 03

  We have private leagues, which are 12 friends or whatnot. Based on your states, we have the ability to play paid leagues.

• 1:09:20John Coogan?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:09:21Speaker 03

  And that's a lot of fun. Those are very engaged leagues, very active.

• 1:09:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:27Speaker 03

  And then we do have the way to kind of manage your league.

• 1:09:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Speaker 03

  What we don't do is, we stick to fantasy.

• 1:09:33John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:09:34Speaker 03

  So we're not in the sports gaming, sports gambling.

• 1:09:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, that makes sense. Have you thought about setting up regional SAT testing facilities for fantasy football punishments? So if I lose, I can go to a Yahoo branded SAT testing facility, and I can send Tyler over there to take the SAT. No, that's my favorite.

• 1:09:54Speaker 03

  The, the crew in the front was telling me some of the highs of their wins, and then also some of the punishments. And the SAT sounds positive in comparison.

• 1:10:03John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. It's like a family friendly one.

• 1:10:06Jordi Hays?

  How do you think about new sports leagues? We've had people on the show, our friend, our friend Alexis is like a big investor in like, in an all women's track running league. We had the.

• 1:10:21John Coogan?

  Did he like slam ball? Or was he just talking about slam ball being cool?

• 1:10:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But then, you know, we had the, I think, one of the founders of the Enhanced Games.

• 1:10:33John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:34Jordi Hays?

  We covered that. But what's your outlook? Like, at what point does something become, do you care about emerging?

• 1:10:39John Coogan?

  We do.

• 1:10:40Jordi Hays?

  Sports and leagues?

• 1:10:41John Coogan?

  We do.

• 1:10:43Speaker 03

  Look, it's great to be the NFL, to be NBA, MLB.

• 1:10:51Speaker 03

  But you exemplify this as well as anyone, which is you find your audience.

• 1:10:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Speaker 03

  And you grow.

• 1:10:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 03

  And there's never been a better time to be able to do that, both for the rights holder, the league, and also the athletes. There's some really fascinating stuff. Alexis is involved in a lot of it. There's also TGL, that indoor golf league.

• 1:11:11John Coogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  It's awesome.

• 1:11:12John Coogan?

  Huh.

• 1:11:13Speaker 03

  Shaun White has a snowboard.

• 1:11:16Jordi Hays?

  Slam ball was Gary Vee, by the way.

• 1:11:17John Coogan?

  Oh, that's right. Okay. Got it.

• 1:11:19Speaker 03

  Gary's also in pickleball.

• 1:11:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, pickleball.

• 1:11:22Speaker 03

  There's a lot of emerging sport.

• 1:11:25John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Speaker 03

  And part of the reason is the athletes have huge audiences and followings, no different than you have your own audiences and following. And then you're able to construct and to go live. And we, in many cases, there's a, the indoor football league had its semifinals last night. It's not the NFL, but they broadcast on Yahoo. And there's 5 million people who've watched that season on Yahoo. So there's tons of examples of people starting up new, new product, if you will.

• 1:11:56Jordi Hays?

  How do you, you're doing 60 hours a week of live content.

• 1:12:00Speaker 03

  And sports.

• 1:12:01Jordi Hays?

  Mogging us.

• 1:12:02Speaker 03

  Forty, 50 in finance.

• 1:12:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Absolutely mogging us. We're only, we're barely putting up 15. But how do you?

• 1:12:10Speaker 03

  A lot more than two people doing it.

• 1:12:12John Coogan?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:12:13Jordi Hays?

  How do you, how do you identify talent? How confident are you when you're looking at signing or helping create a show? How confident, like how refined is your kind of forecasting ability to understand if somebody's going to be, be great?

• 1:12:31Speaker 03

  I would love to say it's super refined. The, look, the way, the way we've done everything is, and I say it's the same North Star just said differently for sports and finance, which is our aim is to deliver smart content, make you a smarter fan, make you a smarter investor. Starts with that. We know what our priorities are. We have to be great in fantasy.

• 1:12:59Speaker 03

  And hands down, we have the best fantasy roster. And then sport by sport, or category by category, whether it's crypto, or it's mag set, we need voices tied to those.

• 1:13:09John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:13:11Speaker 03

  In general, we are looking for people who are multi-platform. So we want, you know, just like you, some days I listen on pods, some days I listen on video.

• 1:13:23John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:13:24Speaker 03

  It's a skill set to be able to do both of those well as the talent side.

• 1:13:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  That's important. A lot of our folks are also writers, and they also have followings on social.

• 1:13:32John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:13:33Speaker 03

  Most importantly, and I, and I, again, think you guys are excellent, you just have to have fun.

• 1:13:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Speaker 03

  And you can see it when you hear Kevin O'Connor.

• 1:13:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:42Speaker 03

  On NBA, you can see it, Brian Saucy on finance, they just are happy.

• 1:13:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Speaker 03

  And they enjoy their job, and they're smiling.

• 1:13:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:50Speaker 03

  And that is, you can learn, you can't learn that. You either have that energy or you don't.

• 1:13:55John Coogan?

  How are you thinking about shared distribution infrastructure? Like, we've done a lot to clip the show and repurpose it for LinkedIn and Instagram. And when you have a lot of content, it can sometimes be overwhelming to have duplication across all your hosts and all your different shows. But it might be better if one of those, one of those talented hosts is sharing clips on their own personal Instagram, for example. But then where's the value accrue to Yahoo or not? And so there's this like tension there, but I'm wondering how you've, how you've sorted through that over the time.

• 1:14:29Speaker 03

  So I don't think that's a tension.

• 1:14:31John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:14:31Speaker 03

  I think it's a reality.

• 1:14:32John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:32Speaker 03

  And you got to accept it.

• 1:14:33John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:14:35Speaker 03

  And I spent a lot of years at ESPN. I spent almost eight years at ESPN.

• 1:14:39John Coogan?

  I'm sure you saw it with like Twitter, like, and ESPN at that time, where it was like, oh, wow, like this person's getting really big just for taking a picture, sending out 140 characters.

• 1:14:48Speaker 03

  So we have a gentleman named Ariel Hawani.

• 1:14:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Speaker 03

  And if you know MMA or UFC, he is the voice.

• 1:14:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:55Speaker 03

  And he's awesome. He's, he's got, he's got a beautiful studio.

• 1:14:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we looked at his studio, I was studying his studio setup early on because he does a lot of remote guests.

• 1:15:06John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:15:06Jordi Hays?

  And it's, he has an interesting setup to make it feel like it is a conversation, but also the viewer can.

• 1:15:12Speaker 03

  And it's similar in the sense that he does with his crew, they do a period every, they go live three hours every day. Sounds familiar.

• 1:15:20John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:15:21Speaker 03

  They have a period. Tiring.

• 1:15:24John Coogan?

  But it works.

• 1:15:24Speaker 03

  It works. And then they have a lot of guests, and a lot of those guests come on video, a lot of those guests are live in person. For his audience, for him and, and for his team and his brand to do the, the sharing on social is more impactful. We obviously still amplify it, and Yahoo will do it, and we have our, but that's a good thing.

• 1:15:46John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:47Speaker 03

  Same as Brian Saucy, super active on LinkedIn. That's a good thing.

• 1:15:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:52Speaker 03

  Better than, and he can say things and relate to his audience in a way that is more impactful doing that than it would be from a brand.

• 1:16:01John Coogan?

  What's been, how have you processed the prediction market boom? Huge demand from sports fans broadly, even just when I'm watching the World Cup, I want to, even though I'm not a better eye or traitor.

• 1:16:14Jordi Hays?

  Predictor.

• 1:16:15John Coogan?

  Predictor. I like to just have a clear number.

• 1:16:19Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:16:20John Coogan?

  Like, oh, okay, 20% chance that America wins this, or whatever. It's an easy way to understand a line and, and what experts are thinking. At the same time, complicated from a regulatory perspective. How have you experienced the boom? How have you decided to integrate or not?

• 1:16:38Speaker 03

  So you raised two very important, but I think separated points. The first, and I've, I said this before the space kind of opened up on the sports betting side.

• 1:16:51Speaker 03

  Whether you bet or predict or not, I think it's actually really important to the storytelling.

• 1:16:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:58Speaker 03

  For the reason you just outlined.

• 1:17:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Speaker 03

  It's a very easy way to digest what is likely to happen.

• 1:17:05John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:17:06Speaker 03

  If you can actually then overlay the live odds or predictions on top of a game or an event, and start to understand things very interestingly. The same way you can take a stock price and say, oh, there's earnings.

• 1:17:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:18Speaker 03

  There's news.

• 1:17:18John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:17:19Speaker 03

  So I, I think it's actually really important that we do it and we do it right, and safely, from a storytelling perspective. On the, our role there is a little different. Obviously, we do the storytelling.

• 1:17:35Speaker 03

  We're not going to process or be actively the platform. But we have a very big audience, 100 million plus users in, in sports, 100 million plus people.

• 1:17:47Speaker 03

  100 million plus in finance.

• 1:17:51Speaker 03

  Our job is to work with those platforms.

• 1:17:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Speaker 03

  And so we've worked with Polymarket.

• 1:17:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:56Speaker 03

  Kalshi, we talked about Ariel Hawani and Uncrowned, Kalshi provides all the, they vertically have that. You see odds from other platforms. We think that's really important, but we're going to do that in an integration in a partnership and a sponsorship way.

• 1:18:12John Coogan?

  What's driving top of funnel? I mean, 100 million is a ton. There's a lot of people. I imagine you want to grow. What's the plan?

• 1:18:19Speaker 03

  We do want to grow.

• 1:18:21John Coogan?

  Getting to 500 million?

• 1:18:25Speaker 03

  500's a lot.

• 1:18:26John Coogan?

  What's the plan to get to 5 billion?

• 1:18:29Jordi Hays?

  More sports, more, more sports fans.

• 1:18:34Speaker 03

  Was like, was like, we need to put internet in Africa if we're going to get.

• 1:18:38Jordi Hays?

  No, and, and, no, an example, like, like, you're, you're somewhat the best marketing for Yahoo is, is probably like the league's doing well, there being like riveting storylines. And it is, it has been interesting.

• 1:18:53Jordi Hays?

  The UFC has had a couple of big moments this year, but the league has like, from my point of view, and again, I'm, I'm a casual, but from my point of view, the league has somewhat strugger, struggled to cultivate American superstars or, or, or Western superstars, which is where a lot of the, the, you know, which is important for the league overall. And so, yeah, it's this interesting dynamic where like, how much, you can only do so much without these big moments happening. You have to be ready for those big moments.

• 1:19:29Speaker 03

  And it's, it's interesting, the, we want to drive fandom.

• 1:19:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:36Speaker 03

  And we don't play in the live rights, you know, we're not licensing, that's a very different game. We play a different game than ESPN. But all of us benefit from fandom generally growing. And so while the UFC bout will not occur on Yahoo, the pre-game, the post-game, we want to be the game around the game, the discussion around and drive the fandom. I'll give you a, a slight pivot on the how do we grow.

• 1:20:05John Coogan?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:20:06Speaker 03

  And yes, we do want to grow, and yes, we are growing.

• 1:20:08John Coogan?

  Of course.

• 1:20:10Speaker 03

  I actually spend more time thinking about usage.

• 1:20:13John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:20:14Speaker 03

  And one of the takeaways from being at a TV world was.

• 1:20:21Speaker 03

  Priority number one is grow minutes, which is a very kind of TV term, but we look at overall consumption in minutes. And there's two ways to grow that. Get new people coming in and get them to do more things. And that's why things like fantasy are so important is we introduce college football. It's been very good so far. A third of those users have never played on Yahoo. A third of the people who play death leagues have never played on Yahoo. New formats adding top of the funnel, but we know that when those users come, they're habitually there. I don't know how you go from 100 to 500, but I do have a sense of how you go from get you to spend 10 minutes today to get you to spend 12.

• 1:21:00John Coogan?

  Fantasy movie league. That's what you gotta do. I played this unironically. It was not on Yahoo. It was on some random website. You have a, you have eight screens. You get to pick, okay, I want the Odyssey. That's really expensive.

• 1:21:12Speaker 03

  A box office.

• 1:21:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, your box office. You create a theoretical box office. Then when the numbers come in, you see who ranks. I got all my friends playing for like one season, but the season doesn't really end because there's always movies.

• 1:21:24Speaker 03

  It's yearly.

• 1:21:25John Coogan?

  But people have a lot of fun with that. The niche.

• 1:21:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I always, I always wish there was.

• 1:21:29John Coogan?

  Fantasy is so fun.

• 1:21:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I wish there was fantasy private markets.

• 1:21:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:33Jordi Hays?

  But, but one of the challenges, I think one of the challenges is like attention spans. Like there's companies right now that I just know are like obvious shorts. And I would love to express that.

• 1:21:43John Coogan?

  They're gonna hang out at their current valuation for a decade, like realistically.

• 1:21:47Jordi Hays?

  Hang out for, it'll be, it's like, like this, and then just bam. But yeah, I don't even want to do it publicly, but just with like, you know, just for fun with like a group chat.

• 1:21:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:59Jordi Hays?

  It sounds incredible, but I just don't think the, I don't know if the attention spans are there because sometimes a company like is actively failing, but will take a long time.

• 1:22:08John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:22:12Speaker 03

  I don't know how to answer that part, but, but connected to the, one of the, how do you get more time? You have to satisfy different ways of play, which could be what we just talked about, but also I want something to play today.

• 1:22:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:26Speaker 03

  Versus a season.

• 1:22:27John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:22:27Speaker 03

  Versus perpetuity of the box office. But we have different formats for different things. So we had a World Cup game with Fox.

• 1:22:37John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:22:38Speaker 03

  Obviously the broadcast. We have daily games, which we've done for WNBA, we've done for F1. And that's a way to watch a game, make some, make some predictions. And then you can play within a week, but really it's consumed in a single day. And then you have the whole NFL season or MLB season is a commitment.

• 1:22:58John Coogan?

  And there's enough overlap there that true sports fans have something. For sure. For sure. Well, thank you so much for coming on.

• 1:23:04Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 1:23:05Jordi Hays?

  Thank you for the gift.

• 1:23:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:06Jordi Hays?

  Stunning. We need to make some of those ourselves.

• 1:23:09John Coogan?

  Great to see you.

• 1:23:10Jordi Hays?

  Good luck. Good luck with.

• 1:23:14John Coogan?

  And let me tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents, whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows. Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish. Jordy.

• 1:23:27Jordi Hays?

  Matt Levine has a new post. He says, whether they want to admit it or not, many women have always been attracted to bad boys and risk takers. I can't think of any archetype that fits that description more today. That newsletters that put it all on the line every day.

• 1:23:43John Coogan?

  Newsletter writers that put it all on the line every day. I love that your quote has already become a copy pasta. That's a true.

• 1:23:50Jordi Hays?

  It's so good. That's a badge of, that's a badge of honor.

• 1:23:53John Coogan?

  True virality. Wow. Tell me about the 118 Wally power designed by Lazarini Pickering Architecti in 2003.

• 1:24:04Jordi Hays?

  So, yeah, incredible.

• 1:24:06John Coogan?

  Calling it the most beautiful yacht ever.

• 1:24:08Jordi Hays?

  I'm so happy that Luso, this account, shared this. I saw this. I thought it maybe was a render at first. It just looks too good to be true. And the craziest thing to me is this, I, I'm kind of gonna go out on a limb and say that like the Cybertruck maybe was inspired by this. Like it looks, if you just put them up side by side, it looks very, very, very similar. 118 feet long.

• 1:24:36John Coogan?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:24:38Jordi Hays?

  And it is, it is quick.

• 1:24:40John Coogan?

  Michael Bay used it in a movie, I believe, The Island. If you scroll down in the comments, there's, there's some shots from the movie where they're illustrating, there's a whole city inside. Very cool shot. Crazy.

• 1:24:54Jordi Hays?

  But yeah, looking at these pictures, I want to get on it.

• 1:24:58John Coogan?

  Right now.

• 1:24:59Jordi Hays?

  With my friends and family and just head out.

• 1:25:02John Coogan?

  The cyber yacht. Yeah. Yeah. The inspo, potentially the stealth icon. 115 billion dollars.

• 1:25:09Jordi Hays?

  Joe Weisenthal, famous vibe coder, has hit the timeline, dropping Lan- Lange?

• 1:25:15John Coogan?

  Langa.

• 1:25:16Jordi Hays?

  Langa.

• 1:25:16John Coogan?

  No, I don't know.

• 1:25:17Jordi Hays?

  Play chess against a computer of any rating and talk with a tutor while doing so. The guy's shipping. He's shipped more. He's shipped more than honestly, a lot of actual engineers in the last year.

• 1:25:31John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:25:31Jordi Hays?

  A lot of people say they're gonna ship a game and then, you know, they, they show a cool demo and then they, they, they go dark, never to be heard from again.

• 1:25:41John Coogan?

  This seems like a great way to learn chess. I've been, I've been playing a lot of chess. It's a lot of fun. So you can set your elo. I like it. Fun, fun that he's shipping. He says, this is still very much a work in progress since obviously to me yet that LLMs can actually evaluate positions and articulate both strategies and tactics, but we'll keep fiddling with it. It was interesting that, yeah, he, he actually remarks that like, it like the, the fundamental AI models might be the, the, like the thing holding this product back. But yeah, pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. Good, good, good project. I had something else about chess, but I forgot.

• 1:26:22Jordi Hays?

  Anyway. More, more ads hit the subway. We should pull this up.

• 1:26:25John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:26:27Jordi Hays?

  And see some of the, let's get a little review going of some of the tech ads.

• 1:26:34John Coogan?

  Oh yeah. My feedback for Joe is that the design needs to be more responsive. I'm opening it up on like half a window. So ideally, hardcoded objective C. That's where the bar is. Ideally, you vertically integrate all the way into hardware and I want a, a physical version of this product.

• 1:26:53Jordi Hays?

  Yep. All right. Pull up this video.

• 1:26:56John Coogan?

  What video? The video of, oh yeah, more fake tech ads. We love these guys.

• 1:27:02Jordi Hays?

  Underwear. Underwear that think.

• 1:27:05John Coogan?

  Underwear that think?

• 1:27:07Jordi Hays?

  Grieving. Trade on it with Wake Market.

• 1:27:11John Coogan?

  Really dark. That sounds unfortunately real. What's this one?

• 1:27:17Jordi Hays?

  Froggle is now Brian. Cloud-based safety just got personal.

• 1:27:21John Coogan?

  I, I, has anyone actually done?

• 1:27:23Jordi Hays?

  Hire everyone on earth without doing anything. Meat gravy HR.

• 1:27:28John Coogan?

  That's the best.

• 1:27:29Jordi Hays?

  Grandfather, the first wearable AI grandfather.

• 1:27:32John Coogan?

  Direct shot of friend. That's just friend. Idea? Lightbulb? Dashboard. That is the perfect.

• 1:27:42Jordi Hays?

  You have an idea, we turn it into a womby.

• 1:27:44John Coogan?

  A womble.

• 1:27:46Jordi Hays?

  Payroll. Now in pill form.

• 1:27:49John Coogan?

  Payroll in pill form. That sounds, that sounds really delightful.

• 1:27:52Jordi Hays?

  From two to five and just three. Dennis.

• 1:27:56John Coogan?

  I mean, that's correct, I guess.

• 1:27:58Jordi Hays?

  Still merging manually. Merge Michael.

• 1:28:03John Coogan?

  What's his last one?

• 1:28:04Jordi Hays?

  Your calendar is married to your email. Your email didn't want to get married. Your emails, your email's father gave your calendar's father five goats. One of the goats cannot produce.

• 1:28:20John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:28:23Jordi Hays?

  Your email's father gave your calendar's father five goats. One of the goats cannot produce milk. We have your back.

• 1:28:32John Coogan?

  Just the most abstract metaphor possible. I love it. Very, very well done.

• 1:28:37Jordi Hays?

  I'm sold.

• 1:28:38John Coogan?

  Okay. What else is going on the timeline? The Atelier Misor folks are building Prometheus, 50 feet tall, holding the torch of the west in Starbase, Texas. I, everyone accused these guys of being AI, but it feels like they're actually out there building stuff. They just went to Starbase and these, they're just building a monument. People have been, you know, demanding monuments in the timeline for a long time. 29,000 likes on this. And yet it feels like maybe like a stated preference, revealed preference thing, where people say they want a big statue, but no one actually wants to go and buy the big statue. I don't know. It, it, we'll, we'll see how this is, how this is received. Certainly cool that

• 1:29:23John Coogan?

  they're doing all this metalwork. I think it's, I think it's fun to watch. I wonder if they turn this into a real business. You think people will buy this? You think there's a startup here? You think they can stack this?

• 1:29:32Jordi Hays?

  There's no way they're doing this for free for Elon. You don't like.

• 1:29:36John Coogan?

  Wouldn't be the first time someone put six figures on the line for Elon, you know? People have done crazier builds.

• 1:29:43Jordi Hays?

  Possible this is like some type of Trojan horse and they're putting.

• 1:29:50John Coogan?

  You think so?

• 1:29:51Jordi Hays?

  They're putting some of Elon's enemies inside.

• 1:29:52John Coogan?

  Potentially a blue origin engineer with a little spy glass looking out, understanding the way starship is built. Never seen this before, a fifth century Byzantine gambling machine. Inform anyone familiar?

• 1:30:07Jordi Hays?

  Someone in the team chat just said Ty Morse is inside.

• 1:30:10John Coogan?

  Ty Morse is inside.

• 1:30:12Jordi Hays?

  Ty Morse is inside Prometheus, Starbase.

• 1:30:17John Coogan?

  That could be really good. He deserves it. Give him the, give him the interview.

• 1:30:21Jordi Hays?

  Give him the interview.

• 1:30:22John Coogan?

  He worked so hard for that.

• 1:30:24Jordi Hays?

  He went into debt for that interview.

• 1:30:26John Coogan?

  I like this.

• 1:30:27Jordi Hays?

  He bet it all.

• 1:30:28John Coogan?

  Okay, watch this video of this guy who restored a fire department call box. I didn't even know what these were for. I've seen these in New York. I just thought that they were, I don't know, like, like just some sort of monument.

• 1:30:42Jordi Hays?

  So there's a cannon, there's a cannon side and then string runs like underground?

• 1:30:45John Coogan?

  Basically, I think it was that, but this gentleman, this Instagram or YouTube creator, went and painted one, I think without the city's permission, which is sort of cool and against, maybe against the rules, I don't know. I would hope that this is well received and no one, it doesn't face any pushback. Because the end result is remarkable. And it looks really great. Look at this detailed painting of the FDNY logo, pulls it off, look at how fresh that thing looks. From that to beautiful and.

• 1:31:19Jordi Hays?

  Can we get a health check on it after?

• 1:31:22John Coogan?

  It's already been written. Yeah, we gotta send someone out and see the progress. But this is, this is something that I think should be the example that Trey Stevens gives for civil service. Like if your, if your son was drafted by the government to go do a year and they were working on projects like this, just beautification of the city, I'd be like, yeah, that's fine. I feel like anyone could figure out how to do that. Not that it's not incredible artisanship, but like, I do think that you give any enterprising young person, a couple cans of paint, couple, couple tutorials, they could go around and clean up things like that. And I think that'd be a very, very valuable use of, of individuals' time. I don't know. What do you think, Jordy? Are you against it?

• 1:32:07John Coogan?

  Are you pro?

• 1:32:08Jordi Hays?

  I'm, I'm pro. I think it sounds, I think it sounds like a great idea.

• 1:32:10John Coogan?

  You want your call boxes to be, to be all scuffed up? Or you want them to be fresh, freshly?

• 1:32:15Jordi Hays?

  Fresh, please.

• 1:32:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, it might get scuffed up again. Send somebody else out. Do it weekly if you have to.

• 1:32:20Jordi Hays?

  That's right.

• 1:32:21John Coogan?

  I love it.

• 1:32:22Jordi Hays?

  That's right. Someone posted.

• 1:32:24John Coogan?

  What happened?

• 1:32:25Jordi Hays?

  We ought to romanticize SF more if we ever want this city to be actually cool. There's two beautiful images of people walking around, smiling.

• 1:32:33John Coogan?

  Nice motion blur.

• 1:32:34Jordi Hays?

  Someone comments, is this AI generated? And the original poster just says, yep.

• 1:32:39John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:32:40Jordi Hays?

  Two on the nose.

• 1:32:43John Coogan?

  Poetry.

• 1:32:44Jordi Hays?

  Two on the nose. But Anna Wintour is changing this.

• 1:32:47John Coogan?

  That's true. Yeah.

• 1:32:49Jordi Hays?

  Bring Vogue World.

• 1:32:50John Coogan?

  Vogue World will actually look like that or even more, more striking. Let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI, their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. And we need to play our intro video, The Most Feared Lawyer, the video that I produced in Neural Frames, because we have a founder and CEO from Neural Frames. I've been really enjoying this product and I wanted to show you a little bit of what we built with this and then we can bring in the founder and talk about the actual product. There we go. This, so the song is from Suno and then I took the song, put it in Neural Frames and it generated all of this for me, was able to edit it together.

• 1:33:47John Coogan?

  So fun. Let's bring him in. We have Nikolai from Neural Frames, the founder and CEO. Let's switch over.

• 1:33:54Speaker 04

  What's going on?

• 1:33:55John Coogan?

  How you doing? Welcome to the show.

• 1:33:57Speaker 04

  Hi, guys.

• 1:33:58John Coogan?

  Great to meet you.

• 1:33:59Speaker 04

  Great to meet you. Very exciting to be here.

• 1:34:01John Coogan?

  Thanks so much for hopping on. Introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about the company, how long you've been building, the size of the team, where you're based.

• 1:34:08Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, and a little bit more backstory. I think the first, your first attempts at making music videos, I think you were doing manually.

• 1:34:15John Coogan?

  Um, maybe, yeah.

• 1:34:17Jordi Hays?

  But then, but then at some point it switched over and you were just flipping them over to me like every 20 minutes. And I'm like, how is, how is, how is John doing this?

• 1:34:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:27Jordi Hays?

  Now we know he's using your product.

• 1:34:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:29Speaker 04

  Now we know, now we know. John, first of all, props for the music video. Amazing what you got off of the platform and the lawyer.

• 1:34:35John Coogan?

  Real, real, real career ahead of me as music, AI music video director.

• 1:34:40Speaker 04

  I think so. I think so.

• 1:34:42John Coogan?

  Well, no, I mean, we can go into this about like, like it's not, it's not a broadly like amazing video. It's only funny in this context of like, there's like 50 people that think that's funny that understand Quinn Emanuel, but you would never be able to underwrite making a full music video for a random corporate lawyer. But you can now, and I think that's what's actually interesting about this product and AI video generally. But, but give us the history of the company.

• 1:35:08Speaker 04

  Sure. So, yeah, I'm Nico, founder and CEO of Neural Frames. This started three and a half years ago, first as a kind of indie hacking solo entrepreneur project. I just kind of played around with, stay with the fusion. So I'm a long time history as a musician, as a passionate hobby musician, I repirced in physics and then I kind of wanted to build something myself in the real world and not only in physics labs, basically. Was looking for a startup to build and in the end of 2022, played around with AI animation based on state with the fusion. I would first just kind of come up. And I deeply fell in love with creating this animation, that was always so much fun. I had a model fine tuned on myself and then I, you know, there was an image to image to

• 1:35:53Speaker 04

  image loop and I could just see the animations with my own words. And that was so much fun. I loved it. I thought like, I cannot be the only one who enjoys this. And I didn't really have a clear use case in mind, let's say, but just hack together a prototype, launched in January 2023, it kind of went viral on hacker news and ratted and then just grew from there. Fast forward to today, we are platform focused on music videos. We are a team of 12 people at the moment in Berlin. Yeah, we're bootstrapped still, we are profitable. I don't know if you hit the gong for.

• 1:36:25Jordi Hays?

  Oh, we definitely, we definitely hit the gong for profitability. Those are. Those are our favorite gongs to hit.

• 1:36:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's the best.

• 1:36:35Speaker 04

  This is my, my live stream coming to John. Thank you very much. I mean, we're doing 5 million and your run rate, we grew six X on here and so we are very excited for us to come.

• 1:36:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, with 10 people, I'm sure it's going very well. Uh, yeah, so I mean.

• 1:36:49Speaker 05

  Came in the castle, in the castle.

• 1:36:51John Coogan?

  So, yes, I mean, so, so many questions. First, I'm interested in the positioning of the product because I found Neural Frames by actually going to ChatGPT and saying like, I have a Suno song, I want to make an AI music video and I want to do not a lot of work. Like what do you recommend? Recommended Neural Frames and then I went there. And I'm interested in, in, in how, how opinionated you think you need to be in the product? How narrow you want to stay focused? Because Mid Journey is a great example of a company where it feels like it has David Hole's fingerprints on every image that's generated. And that could be a criticism because it's not this broad platform that's AGI doing

• 1:37:33John Coogan?

  everything, but there's an immense amount of value in having an opinionated product at this moment in time. And I'm wondering, do you think you'll stay there or do you want to broaden out or, or do you want to go more opinionated?

• 1:37:44Speaker 04

  Great. That's a very interesting question. I mean, so we are very focused on the music video use case, which is already kind of a niche by itself, right? We are very deliberate there because we are bootstrapped, so there's no purpose in competing with like generic, a general purpose AI video companies out there, right? Within the AI music video realm, it is definitely our ambition that you should be able to create kind of anything. But of course we have kind of our harness, I think you called it harness before, and this is also how we called internally, we kind of bid our harness so that people get kind of high quality, at least like the highest possible quality with, with the lowest amount of clicks out there.

• 1:38:29Speaker 04

  Stay kind of trying to follow what they, what they type in.

• 1:38:32John Coogan?

  You could actually use the service for non-music videos. I, I found a very weird story in my hometown of like a fraud case that, there was only like one article about this, this particular case in like the LA Times, but I was able to take that into ChatGPT, turn it into a deep research report, turn that into a script for a Netflix style true crime documentary, then take that into Suno, make voiceover, and then I took that into Neural Frames and it basically made like a AI generated six-minute Netflix documentary. Neural Frames originally, initially got a little confused because it was like expecting

• 1:39:15John Coogan?

  beats, I think, and like it was having trouble cutting it up, but it wound up working just like once I refreshed. And so there, there's a world where this like vertical short form storytelling could get there, but it does feel like there's still a really, like the, the magic is definitely in, if you're not going for the funny shock value of like the content, like, oh, it's really polished about something that does not deserve a music video, the, the quality bar is a lot higher. And so I'm interested in how you're assessing progress across the various video models. I did try C dance 2.5. It's good. I don't know if it was my prompt, but it was still very clockable as AI imagery.

• 1:39:58John Coogan?

  And so I'm wondering about how you're thinking about the, the progress in AI video models, the cost and what you're seeing across the landscape.

• 1:40:09Speaker 04

  So I mean, first of all, one year ago, we were, I think, to the best of my knowledge, the first music video tool out there that had character consistency, right? Just to tell you where we're coming from. So like, one year ago, it was impossible to have character consistency, basically. Then we added three character consistency, and now, I mean, the lawyer was, with all the criticism that you had, was pretty consistent person, and we're actually very proud of like, the character consistency. You can even upload yourself and create.

• 1:40:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, and it's easy. You just take a couple screenshots, upload it, and create the character, and then you just tag it, and it's very, very simple to actually like, create a consistent character.

• 1:40:48Speaker 04

  Of course, like, if you imagine, I mean, AI video models create usually five, 10-second clips, right? Now, C- Dance 2.5 can even go up to 30 seconds, but that's very new. And our kind of challenge is, the main challenge of music video generation, okay, you have a three, four, five, six-minute song, and we need to create all the images and videos that kind of match the beat, match the mood of the song, right? Match the character, tell a story. And so it's actually surprising that AI video models themselves are important. We can do cool stuff with good new models, but it is surprisingly, I would say, not the most important aspect of this whole thing. The whole harness and image generation is at least equally as important.

• 1:41:33Speaker 04

  And of course, we're continuously working on that and making, I think, also very good progress. I think this video that you showed would have looked very different three years, three months ago already.

• 1:41:42John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. How do you think about the trade-off between like, UI and sort of really surfacing the feature versus baking everything down into a text box? Because there's a world where I could have just gone and said, "Make a music video about John Quinn, Quinn Emanuel." I did have a few steps where I went to Suno, generated the music, gave that to you guys, and then uploaded the photos, and you could sort of do all of that in one huge box and huge prompt, but obviously, you get higher quality as you layer in more user interaction, and you're just surfacing more of those. Like, I didn't know the character consistency was an option until there was like, a little

• 1:42:26John Coogan?

  button there, and I was like, "Oh, what's that?", and then I see, and then I go down that flow. If it's just a blank box, it's harder to do the user education.

• 1:42:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is a very interesting question, and one that we are debating at least every few days here in the team. This is also changing a lot. I still think there is a lot of value in opinionated UX somehow to guide the user along certain steps, right? And also to allow great editing in the end, yeah? So we, I mean, our power users, they spend a lot of time on the platform refining each scene, right? We have a timeline, where you can drag things around, you can change the characters, you can change the outfit and stuff like that. I just personally feel in a chat-based product, that would be a bit more difficult to do. But let's see, I mean, we might experiment with that in the future.

• 1:43:14John Coogan?

  Okay, give me a lightning round of the video models. I want your review slash like, explanation of what they're good at or what they're not. Let's start with C- Dance 2.5, it's now on Neural Frames. What is it good at? Is it too expensive? How should I think about that model?

• 1:43:31Speaker 04

  It's an amazing model. It's probably the best model that exists at the moment and can create up to 30-second cohesive clips, and it has like, a multi-shot feature, so it doesn't create one long 30-second clip, but multiple shots at the same time, which Neural Frames kind of does for all models already, but in C- Dance it's kind of integrated. You can also upload lots of references, so lots of objects can reappear across scenes, all of this is very new. In theory, there's also audio input in this model, which sometimes works better than, and sometimes doesn't.

• 1:44:04John Coogan?

  What about Klink?

• 1:44:05Speaker 04

  It is also probably the most expensive model that exists, and cost is definitely a huge issue. I mean, video models are quite costly, right? And Klink is amazing as well. Klink 3 is a great all-rounder, kind of, also, it's not the cheapest, but significantly cheaper than C- Dance 2 and C- Dance 2.5, yeah.

• 1:44:27John Coogan?

  What's going on with the Vio family of models from Google, Gemini? Very impressive at various moments, but I haven't seen them really be harnessed in the same way as C- Dance recently.

• 1:44:39Speaker 04

  I think the latest releases of Google were Nano Banana Lite, which is a very good lightweight image model, actually, which is also very useful for several steps in our workflow. Not the highest quality ever, but kind of affordable and very fast. And then they also released Gemini Omni Flash, I think it's called. It's a video model that allows also editing. It's also very good, but in our experiments, doesn't quite reach the quality of C- Dance 2.

• 1:45:09Jordi Hays?

  Have a lot of marketers discovered Neural Frames? Can I imagine people just saying like, "Yeah, well, they made it for music videos, but, you know, if you want to make a Facebook ad, you know, and you have, you want..."

• 1:45:21John Coogan?

  I think that Facebook ads should be music videos, more likely to stop scrolling.

• 1:45:25Speaker 04

  We had a cosmetic brand using Neural Frames, they kind of created an AI influencer that then created songs with one of the AI music tools, and then music videos with Suno also, with Neural Frames. We're also seeing musicians themselves running ads on Instagram or Facebook that then link to their Spotify playlist. So that's also an interesting use case, I think, yeah.

• 1:45:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's fun. Well, thank you so much for coming on.

• 1:45:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, very cool.

• 1:45:57John Coogan?

  You have anything else?

• 1:45:58Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 1:45:59John Coogan?

  Have a great day.

• 1:46:00Jordi Hays?

  Thank you for providing so much entertainment.

• 1:46:02John Coogan?

  We're having a good time with that.

• 1:46:04Jordi Hays?

  Definitely, definitely tens of thousands of dollars worth of entertainment. I don't know how much you're charging us, but it's been amazing.

• 1:46:12John Coogan?

  It's not cheap, but it's very affordable for what you get. Like, you know, these things are still...

• 1:46:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, belly laughs aren't free.

• 1:46:19John Coogan?

  Priceless.

• 1:46:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's no such thing as a free belly laugh.

• 1:46:22John Coogan?

  That's true, that's true, that's true.

• 1:46:23Jordi Hays?

  Great to meet you. Thanks for coming.

• 1:46:25John Coogan?

  Yeah, and congratulations on the progress.

• 1:46:26Speaker 04

  Thank you so much.

• 1:46:27John Coogan?

  Keep it up, and come back on the show when there's more news.

• 1:46:30Speaker 04

  Big fan of you guys. Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:46:32John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon.

• 1:46:33Jordi Hays?

  You're the man, dude.

• 1:46:34John Coogan?

  Have a good one. Let me tell you about Cisco. Critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real-time experiences and new value with Cisco. Up next, we have two...

• 1:46:42Jordi Hays?

  I'm surprised that Mikey hasn't come in with the maxed-out offer yet.

• 1:46:47John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. The other side of that is that it's going to be a very competitive market, and there's a lot of different tools and wrappers, but I just think like, if you create an opinionated product, it's really delightfully used, has good NPS, you can carve out a fantastic business, as they have. Anyway, our next guests are Adam Goldstein and Brian Utco from Archer and Boeing. We're very excited to talk to them about this partnership. Welcome to the show, and welcome back.

• 1:47:15Speaker 06

  What's up, guys?

• 1:47:16John Coogan?

  How are you doing? Good to see you again.

• 1:47:18Speaker 06

  Good to be here.

• 1:47:19John Coogan?

  Can you kick us off with some introductions and then set up the partnership for us?

• 1:47:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, sure. I'm Adam Goldstein, founder and CEO at Archer.

• 1:47:27Speaker 05

  I'm Brian Utco. I lead product development for Boeing.

• 1:47:29John Coogan?

  Amazing. And what are you working on together?

• 1:47:31Speaker 06

  So today, we announced a pretty big strategic transaction, where Archer will be acquiring three businesses from Boeing. Wisk, which is their advanced air mobility platform, In Situ, which is their ISR drone platform, and SkyGrid, which is their air traffic control product.

• 1:47:47John Coogan?

  Wow. How long have you guys been working together, talking about potentially doing some sort of deal? What's the story behind this story?

• 1:47:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, so Brian and I have known each other for, you know, for several years. Brian's actually, he comes from the startup world too.

• 1:48:03John Coogan?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:48:04Speaker 06

  And so I'll let you give him, you know, he'll give his story there, but, you know, Boeing has always viewed us as this, you know, this big company that we all know that has amazing products we fly on every day, but they do a lot of really cool, innovative stuff too, and Brian's the guy that leads a lot of that projects.

• 1:48:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, thanks, Adam. Yeah, we got pretty, we got pretty involved chatting a couple of years back when, you know, we were developing some autonomous electric aircraft. Adam and his team were developing some piloted electric aircraft. There's some natural kind of, you know, complementarity between those things, and, you know, it's been a couple of year collaboration, frankly, you know, going back to probably early '22 or so.

• 1:48:42John Coogan?

  And what does this mean for Archer? Should I think about this as pulling forward an R&D roadmap, developing a stronger customer base, jumping forward on revenue or profit? How are you thinking about integrating these new products and companies?

• 1:48:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, in the world of EBITTs, it's a pretty small universe, right? And so there hasn't been a scenario here where two companies have come together like this, so this is kind of like, shaking it up in our industry. But if there ever were two companies to come together, it's the perfect match. We were actually both building aircraft that had similar architectures. So we both had 12 sets of engines, and six propellers that will tilt, and six propellers that are stationary, so a similar type of architecture. But Archer took this pathway where we were all about commercialization, and Boeing took this pathway where they were advancing all the new technologies like autonomy. So bringing them together really allows us to supercharge the path to market, but also some of the advanced capabilities.

• 1:49:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:40Jordi Hays?

  What can you share about what the relationship will look like on a go-forward basis? It feels like you guys are getting on together, so this is, unless this is goodbye, I imagine you're going to be doing a lot more work together.

• 1:49:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, so the deal is actually an all-stock transaction, so it makes us partners now. And so Boeing locked up the stock, there's some incentives for us to collaborate together, and they're really this kind of mutually aligned roadmap that we're working on. And so we're both trying to go build the future of aviation, and it just aligns us to be able to do it together, and we do it now as partners.

• 1:50:12Speaker 05

  I think it's a really great example of kind of a large institutional company being really creative in deal space, you know, in advanced technology, because, you know, frankly, you know, we see an opportunity here where we can take some of the pioneering capabilities that we developed for autonomous aviation, we can add them to what Adam and his team have built, and really kind of supercharge some of what can be built in the advanced mobility market. And then at the same time, through our relationship, we can build, we can bring some of those advanced capabilities back to our core products as we go off and start trying to win the future on that kind of next wave of commercial aviation.

• 1:50:49John Coogan?

  What can you tell us about Archer's overall surface area or theory around partnerships? I've been seeing a bunch of these, obviously, the Andorol one happened recently. Is, how do you think about the overall structure of partnerships right now? Like, what makes for a great deal?

• 1:51:07Speaker 06

  Well, aviation is actually very collaborative, and so even on the defense base, most of the primes will end up working with each other on different projects.

• 1:51:14John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:51:14Speaker 06

  And so a lot of it is just working together to advance these really complex products that ultimately are better for the country if we can do it, because they are really country-level initiatives. This is the first new product category in the U.S. in almost 60 years. So it's a big deal that this is happening, and the U.S. wants to lead that. So I think it's common that a lot of these companies will work together in this industry. One of the unique elements to this one, too, was the company in Situ, where in Situ is a revenue-producing company, a cash flow and company. So in the startup land of aviation, you generally don't see early revenue that comes to these companies. So the joke is like the Silicon Valley show, it's like, revenue? It's like, are you sure? Are you sure you want that revenue? It's kind of like this, this funny, like, you know, period

• 1:51:59Speaker 06

  of time where it's actually a way for us to get products to market, test out the new capabilities on these smaller drones, generate cash flow to help extend the runway, and really allow us to keep building ultimately to the big commercial markets where we want to get to.

• 1:52:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:13Jordi Hays?

  You're wearing a L.A. Olympics jacket, it looks like. It's a little far away, but what should people, I've been starting to see Olympics signage going up around L.A., getting excited. What should people expect from Archer around the Olympics?

• 1:52:31Speaker 06

  So Archer was selected as the exclusive air taxi provider for the L.A. 28 Games. That was a huge deal for us. It's really a chance for the world to see these products on the big stage, and that's what it was all about. And so it also served as a timeline, like a, an unslippable date for the company, the regulators, the ecosystem, the infrastructure partners to all work towards getting these products to markets. It's important for the administration to see America leading in aviation, so we're really trying to help create those forcing functions to do that. So the goal is to be flying at the Games, lots of aircraft flying around, people see this new technology, but really you can think about it as an industry promotion to help show it's safe, it's new technology, and good consumer experience.

• 1:53:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm super excited for it. It's going to be an incredible moment. How do you think about reaching the sort of like iPhone moment, ChatGPT moment, Waymo moment of, of, of this product specifically, this market? Because there's these, some of these technologies, they work for, they're in the lab for a decade, two decades, and then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, if you go to San Francisco, you see Waymo's on the road, and you know that self-driving is a real thing, it's here. How are you, how do you think that moment will happen for you?

• 1:53:50Speaker 06

  So we've been working on this, this project together, for the, as an industry, called the EIPP or EBITL Integration Pilot Program, and that came from an executive order from President Trump last year. That will allow us, as an industry, to start flying in these big cities, and that will take place, it's really already started, and it's really kind of ramping the back half of this year. So Archer's been doing that, Wisk has been doing that, and the goal is to really take those aircraft, to show them to people, so they can see them, they can get comfortable around them, but ultimately, so the regulators can get comfortable around them, that these are safe, and it's not just an Archer thing or a Wisk thing, but it's an industry thing, that all of a sudden, we can expand the amount that are out there, and they can be ultimately become a part of our everyday life.

• 1:54:31John Coogan?

  Amazing. I can't wait for it. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Congratulations on the deal.

• 1:54:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, good to see you, Adam, and great to me, Brian. Congrats on the transaction.

• 1:54:40John Coogan?

  Have a great rest of your day. We'll talk to you soon.

• 1:54:42Speaker 06

  Thanks, guys.

• 1:54:42John Coogan?

  Goodbye. Let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds, online, in-store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents. We got a fun fact here. One horsepower is 746 watts. A B200 under sustained load hits 800 watts with a theoretical max of 1,000 watts. A GPU is almost exactly a modern-day workhorse. We're bringing horses to the data center. It's the future.

• 1:55:17Jordi Hays?

  Love it.

• 1:55:17John Coogan?

  Anything else you want to talk about? The yen intervention, the yen is extending its decline, erasing half of intervention gains. Book your trip to Japan now, the yen is weak. The best time to go to Japan is maybe now. Who knows?

• 1:55:31Jordi Hays?

  Last thing, there was some news, maybe it was Friday or Saturday, that they may be, SpaceX may be abandoning the Cursor brand.

• 1:55:41John Coogan?

  Ryan, that's right.

• 1:55:42Jordi Hays?

  And just focusing on Grok. And, yeah, as someone in the peanut gallery, that, that seems insane.

• 1:55:49John Coogan?

  Well, they're going to have different products. There's like Grok for consumer, there's Grok Work, which they'll call Gork, and I think Gork could really see a lot of adoption, the better, and the enterprise. Wouldn't you want to use Gork? I love Gork. Gork, Grok Work, you just call it Gork, is great. That's a brand I can get by.

• 1:56:07Jordi Hays?

  To me, Cursor is just an amazing brand.

• 1:56:09John Coogan?

  It's love, even as a startup, and people idolize the founders. It's such an interesting story. Michael Truul, like, goaded young kid, like, builds this amazing product, completely dominates in this category, going up against Anthropic and OpenAI, gets the deal, like, there's just so much lore there that's so positive. People love the product. Yeah. No, no, I agree with the peanut gallery. It is a little bit of a, an odd left turn, but Grocking is maybe the bigger picture, right?

• 1:56:38Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:38John Coogan?

  Because Grocking means to really understand, the Cursor might go away nowadays, you know, you're just typing or talking, you might not even use a cursor. I don't know. I still like it as a brand, like Cursor, the name is just a great name.

• 1:56:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:52John Coogan?

  But we'll see. I mean, the early, a year ago, like, the, there was some crazy reporting that showed that I think Grok was banned in more enterprises than it was used in, something like that. The numbers were not good, because there was a lot of fear around, was it going to say something inappropriate? Was it going to go off the rails? There were misalignment?

• 1:57:12Jordi Hays?

  I don't think they've solved that, just judging by, by some of the viral posts that Grok has made.

• 1:57:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, there might be like a different, different fork versus...

• 1:57:21Jordi Hays?

  Ryan says it worked for Twitter. I would, I would, I would still push back. I've tried to be respectful to the, to the company and say, and say the word X, but Twitter, to me, again, iconic.

• 1:57:34John Coogan?

  I think that's, I think that eventually will be, you know, like an unk tell a little bit, like, you'll be revealing how old you are when you're on Twitter.

• 1:57:43Jordi Hays?

  I am.

• 1:57:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's true. But with, with Cursor and Grok, like, they're the same age, and so it's not like people, if they, if they sunset the Cursor brand, and everyone goes Grok or Gork or whatever they want to call it, everyone, it won't be the same thing where it's like, oh, I can't stop calling it Cursor, because it's like, oh, well, you only used that for two years. Whereas with Twitter, it's like, for 20 years, people were saying Twitter, and then all of a sudden, it went away.

• 1:58:12Jordi Hays?

  Equus in the X chat says, guys, what's your view on the glow up of gentle giant or intuitive iguana?

• 1:58:19John Coogan?

  What is that?

• 1:58:20Jordi Hays?

  That is, Gary Vee had a very viral video over the weekend.

• 1:58:23John Coogan?

  What happened?

• 1:58:25Jordi Hays?

  Talking about, talking about his NFT project.

• 1:58:27John Coogan?

  Oh, people are still on the NFT projects. He's, he's keeping it alive, isn't he? He's still in the game?

• 1:58:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:33John Coogan?

  That is wild. NFT just gives me like, whoa, wow, I was in the trenches or something, you know? I wasn't personally, but I remember that time as like, those are some pretty crazy times.

• 1:58:46Jordi Hays?

  Crazy times. Well, folks, we hope you have some crazy good times this afternoon.

• 1:58:52John Coogan?

  Thanks for tuning in. Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Sign up for our newsletter at tbn.com. We'll see you back here at 11 a.m. Pacific tomorrow. Goodbye.