‘Rocky’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

It ain’t about how hard you watch. It’s about how hard you rewatch and keep moving forward. The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan revisit the 1976 classic ‘Rocky’ starring Syllvester Stallone, Talia Shire, and Carl Weathers. Watch this episode on our Ringer Movies YouTube channel! Producer: Craig Horlbeck Video Producers: Jack Sanders, Chia Hao Tat, Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Bill Simmons?

  What's up, Rewatchables fans? As you know, we've done live shows in New York, in Philly, DC, in Chicago, LA many times. We've never done Boston. I've been saving it for the right moment. The right moment is here. It's gonna be Thursday, March 27th. It's gonna be the House of Blues, which is right by Fenway Park, and it's going to be the Dream Team. Me, Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy, and Ryan Rusillo. That's right, we're all coming back. We're not doing the town. We're not touching the town. That one episode lives on forever on YouTube, Spotify. We're not redoing it, but we'll probably do a Boston movie. All information will be on the Ringer dot com slash events very soon. Once again, the Rewatchables Live, Boston, Thursday, March 27th, House of Blues, Ringer dot com slash events.

• 0:51Bill Simmons?

  And we're gonna have a couple more things we're doing that weekend, too, so.

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• 1:55Bill Simmons?

  I'm very excited. We have not come to Boston yet, and we're gonna do it, right? Hope to see you there.

• 2:02Bill Simmons?

  The Rewatchables is brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where you're now available on video on Spotify. We have a YouTube channel as well that you can find on Ringer Movies. Van Lathan is here. You can find him on Higher Learning. You can find him on Midnight Boys. Beep beep.

• 2:18Chris Ryan?

  Pew pew. Come on, you know that.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  He's just fucking with me, man. He did this the last time, too. It's pew pew.

• 2:23Bill Simmons?

  Beep beep. Chris Ryan. What are you up to?

• 2:28Chris Ryan?

  He's like the Road Runner and the Coyote now?

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31Chris Ryan?

  I make the watch.

• 2:32Bill Simmons?

  Oh, great.

• 2:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33Bill Simmons?

  A lot of good TV lately.

• 2:34Chris Ryan?

  There's some great television on, yeah.

• 2:36Bill Simmons?

  That's great. Well, I'm Bill, and we're about to do Rocky, one of the most important movies of the last 50 years. Let's go.

• 2:41Speaker 04

  His name is Sylvester Stallone. He's the star of a new film called Rocky. He has been described as handsome, tough, talented, sexy, sensitive, dynamic, and brilliant. He's been compared to Brando, Newman, Pacino, and De Niro. He's been called a top contender for an Academy Award. Sylvester Stallone in Rocky, rated PG.

• 3:19Bill Simmons?

  All right, we'll start here. Rocky is now a prequel for Rocky III. Prove me wrong.

• 3:23Chris Ryan?

  No, you're right.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  That's so funny. I wrote, it's coming up in the category, like, prequel. I'm like, this movie is a prequel.

• 3:31Chris Ryan?

  It is the prequel.

• 3:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And it's one of the most important, I think, movies of the last 50 years. I'm gonna make a case, and it's prototype for sports movies, and yet now, all these years later, I'm like, oh, I like how they're setting this up for the pinball machine in Rocky III.

• 3:45Chris Ryan?

  I was trying to think of an example of what happens in Rocky I, and it's basically, imagine if Godfather was entirely about Kate and Michael not in New York City. Kate and Michael just hanging out, going on dates, going to the movies, you know, like, reading books to each other, checking out the Sunday Times.

• 4:01Bill Simmons?

  Going to a skating rink.

• 4:02Chris Ryan?

  And at the very end, like, Don Corleone dies, you know, and he's like, I have to take over the family. So it's like, it's crazy. Boxing does not happen till the last 13 minutes of this movie.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Shockingly absent from the film. The lore of the Rocky movies.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  After you watch all of them and then you come back to this one, what a quaint, emotionally devastating film.

• 4:25Bill Simmons?

  Mid seventies, character study.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Character study of a guy that's trying to like take this opportunity for the rest of his life, something that's super duper relatable.

• 4:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's funny because from a rewatchable standpoint, and this movie's in the running for probably most rewatched movies on cable and just diving in halfway through it, but you never watch the first half hour of it when it's just establishing over and over again what a loser he is.

• 4:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Bill Simmons?

  Usually not in the rewatch thing, you'll come in and be like, oh shit, he's taking the Apollo fight, I'm gonna start watching.

• 4:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:56Bill Simmons?

  And there's just some gut wrenching scenes in that first 30 minutes, which is why it ended up winning best picture and.

• 5:02Chris Ryan?

  But is that also why you've been a little bit reticent to do it?

• 5:05Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 5:05Chris Ryan?

  On the pod?

• 5:06Bill Simmons?

  I just wanted to do Rocky III first because I think it's one of the great movies of all time. This, when I say it's one of the most influential movies of the past 15 years, the case would be this. Created the sports movie prototype, like just period. Created the underdog, the modern version of that underdog, they, you know, there's millions of movies from 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s that did this, but this nailed it to the point that you would just compare, it could be sports, it could be non-sports, if there was like that kind of Rocky type of character, be like, oh, this is like Rocky. And then just the beats of like something leading to the big game, big event, whatever, which I guess you could say Longest Yard started it, but once Rocky did this.

• 5:49Chris Ryan?

  But I was wondering if this is the first time you remember seeing in a movie, sports narratives and storylines getting manipulated from behind the scenes in a kind of dark arts way to create a sensation, right? Because like all the stuff that Apollo and Jergens are doing where they're like, well, we gotta pick this guy.

• 6:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Chris Ryan?

  Because they'll believe in this guy and this is like how we're gonna do this and what I'm gonna do is knock him out here, you know, and it's like all the stuff that feels like. It's not the, the, uh, pure athleticism and the, the triumph of, of like the little guy over the big guy. It's like, actually like, there's all this other stuff happening in the grimy, seedy underbelly.

• 6:25Bill Simmons?

  So like, what else was doing that before this? Probably nobody?

• 6:29Chris Ryan?

  I can't remember. I can't, couldn't really think of an example of a sports movie that did that, where it's like, here's all this gross shit happening. I'm sure there's like 1930s and 40s boxing movies, where like a mafia guy is trying to get a boxer to take a dive or whatever. But Apollo is like manipulating the media in this.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Certainly. It, it's a movie that at its heart is about, uh, this guy's golden opportunity.

• 6:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  But then it also gets into why that's happening.

• 6:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Everybody wants to believe some, somewhere, somewhere, somewhere, someplace right now, that people are having a conversation about you that's gonna end in you doing this great, amazing thing. And then to watch that happen and then watch the guy that it's happening to, knowing that he did absolutely zero to like deserve it. It's all.

• 7:17Bill Simmons?

  Right. Turns down the fight when it's offered to him.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right. Immediately turns it down.

• 7:21Bill Simmons?

  Like, I don't deserve to be in the ring with that guy. He's that self-aware.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  But it's the thing that's going to save his life and propel him. Like legitimately, in the last scene of the movie, when Adrian is walking to the ring, like her hat falls off. Like her hat falls off, she looks back for the hat. That version of her is gone now.

• 7:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Like the mousy, like, I don't know that I'm beautiful. I'm trying to hide from the world version.

• 7:43Bill Simmons?

  And then Rocket, the Rocky III version's coming. She's looking great.

• 7:47Chris Ryan?

  She's gotta go into a coma first, but then, yeah.

• 7:48Bill Simmons?

  Rocky III Adrian is fantastic.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  So it's like, it, the movie just tells this unbelievable story that everybody wishes was, was their story.

• 7:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Guy, loser, got nothing going, gets his one chance, actually comes through, gets the girl, and then it's ripped off for the next 48, 49 years, which I think is unfairly held against this. The only other nitpick is just that there's, it's, there's some slow parts. I think this is one of the five movies I've seen the most. Just because it's been around for so long and uh.

• 8:19Chris Ryan?

  Was this like an early like watching it on cable over and over again or did you have it on tape? You didn't see this in the theater, right?

• 8:25Bill Simmons?

  No, oh, I did. I have a whole story.

• 8:27Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 8:27Bill Simmons?

  It's on Dedham, Massachusetts with my dad. 1976.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  This must have been big in Boston.

• 8:32Bill Simmons?

  There were not a lot of uh, non-whites in the theater. I'll just say that.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  You guys are, "Yeah, fuck it, yeah!"

• 8:38Bill Simmons?

  Get him!

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Get him! Get off our buses!

• 8:43Bill Simmons?

  Wasn't it diverse crowd in Dedham? But uh, but it, first of all, it was amazing. Like, I just never had been to a movie like that. Um, but leaving, my big memory was being confused whether he won the fight or not and asking my dad like, "But, but what was the scorecard?"

• 9:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, right.

• 9:02Bill Simmons?

  "But they said eight, seven Apollo, then they never said what the rest of the card was."

• 9:07Bill Simmons?

  And I was just so confused and then, you know, upon rewatches, you realize what happened, but.

• 9:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. See, I, I was very much more, I think I might have first seen Rocky IV in the theater.

• 9:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:19Chris Ryan?

  Went backwards. So Rocky I exists in this really weird.

• 9:23Bill Simmons?

  In the prequel world.

• 9:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, well, it just is like, when you watch it when you're younger, you're kinda like, "This sucks." You know, like, "This guy's a loser, everything's, does not paint like the most flattering portrait of Philadelphia." Uh, and you're just kinda like, "Oh, man, this is a real bummer. I much prefer two and three and, and four." But then as you get older, I think you see the artistry of it and you realize it's part of like, in context, it's essentially like Stallone making Mean Streets.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  It, if you first see Rocky III or IV, like I did as well, it's not even the same species of human.

• 9:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  That Rocky is. They have discovered the steroids by the time III and IV have come along. They don't even look the same. Rocky I is, those movies are action movies, essentially.

• 10:08Bill Simmons?

  Rocky III.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Rocky III, those like are big action movies. It's really all about the physicality of the film. Of course, there's the character stuff in there too.

• 10:16Bill Simmons?

  Crossed with like a music video where it just moves from big sequence to big sequence.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Right, like. This one, you gotta give yourself some space with it for a long time. I didn't enjoy it at all. I, the more I started to actually live life.

• 10:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  And understand and, and, and got the understanding that life is a lot more like Rocky I than it is like Rocky III. The movie just, it, it gained um a lot of, a lot of real estate with me.

• 10:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, it also feels very mid seventies as a movie. This ties into a lot of other great movies. I mean, this is such an unbelievable time for movies, that seventy four to seventy eight stretch. And uh, just the way they did it, I just think even five years later, the movie's different. Like, we're, we're only, they make this in seventy six, we're eight years away from Karate Kid, which is the next, the two point O version of this movie.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:06Bill Simmons?

  And that is a completely different movie in every respect. This is slow. It's really trying to build character. It's trying to have these little moments. It's a love story. It has some characters that are awful.

• 11:17Chris Ryan?

  When you talk about Karate Kid and you even talk about movies like um, I don't know, the John Hughes movies and even up to Top Gun. It's just a much different portrait of like American life because this is so urban. And then you see the movies sort of start to look towards the suburbs for, for storytelling because it's a lot safer and cleaner and prettier to do that. But this is so like, it looks like the depression, you know, like when you're.

• 11:41Bill Simmons?

  Takes you no world, which we love on the rewatchables.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Those movies have a lot of style to them too.

• 11:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  You know, you got, you know, Cruel Summer and all of that stuff. This film is just devastatingly emotional.

• 11:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  I, you like, it really makes you believe.

• 11:56Bill Simmons?

  How many times did you tear up?

• 11:57Speaker 02

  I tear, you know what's funny? Like, I really, I cried, uh, literally cried when Rock is yelling at the door. And Mick is walking away and he's talking about the fact that he's felt abandoned by him.

• 12:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  I'm right here.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  What am I, my friend? And then just the, I hate the character. I've always hated this character. This character is my number one op in film history. Paulie, my number one op in film history.

• 12:22Bill Simmons?

  We have a lot of Paulie stuff coming.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like, the Paulie stuff, Paulie is just a more desperate version of Rocky because he can't even box.

• 12:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  He's Rocky without the boxing. So like, he can't, so he has nothing to take him out of his situation, other than his proximity to this guy. That's pretty desperate.

• 12:40Bill Simmons?

  We have to go backwards to seventy six, because I, I just need to, because I'm old enough to remember this. I can't explain what a giant phenomenon this was. You know, like Jaws in seventy five, this in seventy six, Saturday Night Fever in seventy seven, Star Wars in seventy seven, where these movies would hit. And then there would be like seven, eight different outcomes from the movie hitting. And in this one, like the music, um, people started jogging. Like, for real.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:08Bill Simmons?

  I don't, and maybe they were jogging before this movie, but I never remember seeing anyone jog before this movie came out.

• 13:13Chris Ryan?

  Didn't you, you had a big Forrest Gump, like, reinvigorated jogging, but you think, you think Rocky started jogging?

• 13:18Bill Simmons?

  I feel like, people always claim Jim Fix, but I always feel like Rocky, the concept of just people training and being motivated to train. I remember, I'm not kidding, I was a little kid, being in the living room, because I was an only child, and I'd play the Rocky soundtrack, and I would just be in the main event, boxing Apollo, and just running around, like, you know, where you fake playing, you're like hitting yourself and doing, you're listening to the music.

• 13:42Bill Simmons?

  Like, this movie was-

• 13:43Speaker 02

  So you boxed Apollo, you were Rocky and Apollo?

• 13:45Bill Simmons?

  I was Rocky.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Oh, you were Rocky?

• 13:47Bill Simmons?

  I was Rocky.

• 13:47Chris Ryan?

  I was surprised that he was Rocky.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Which one of your friends?

• 13:51Chris Ryan?

  Which one of your non-white friends?

• 13:52Bill Simmons?

  I was by myself.

• 13:55Bill Simmons?

  But this is what you did with this movie.

• 13:56Chris Ryan?

  Apollo, come here, put your face over here.

• 13:59Bill Simmons?

  This is what you did, though. You jogged to this movie, you shadow boxed to it.

• 14:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:03Bill Simmons?

  And then the other piece of it was just alone, going from, I don't, never heard of this person before, to, this is, this person's now in my life. And then think about how he's been in our life. I mean, this is, I don't know how many rewatchables we've done with him at this point, but I don't know if there's been a bigger rags to riches actor story than this.

• 14:21Chris Ryan?

  It's also.

• 14:22Bill Simmons?

  It's Tarantino crossed with acting almost?

• 14:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but I was trying to think of also any, the people who have broken big and then stayed big with the story of making the movie mirrors the movie itself. You know, like his self-belief, his, I, I believe in like, I'm betting on myself on this one. And if it means I can't even make the movie at all, I'm not going to compromise. And to actually like catapult yourself into this kind of level of fame is astonishing.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, he had to, first of all, everyone had to deliver to such a ridiculous level. The script is perfect, even.

• 14:58Bill Simmons?

  It's really well-written and it's hilarious that Sly Stallone wrote it because we, you know, it's like.

• 15:03Chris Ryan?

  It's really cool reading William Goldman break it down. Yeah. And he talks a lot about like the locker scene and all the different things you learn about Rocky from just him hitting the locker to open it up.

• 15:14Bill Simmons?

  One of my favorite script, like just little touches is when they watch the interview on TV. And they're kind of making fun of him in the interview when he's, after he takes the fight. And he's like, yeah, it doesn't bother me. And then he walks away and Adrian's kind of watching him leave. He's like, you remember when I said this stuff didn't bother me?

• 15:32Speaker 02

  It did.

• 15:33Bill Simmons?

  It did. And then he just walks up and be like, oh, man, this fucking guy, can he buy, Rock, can he buy a break?

• 15:39Speaker 02

  You know.

• 15:39Bill Simmons?

  Can we just buy this guy a break?

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Kid, is there a time, this is gonna sound really whatever, but is there a time in a movie before this to where the old sports trope of watching the guy talk about, like Apollo's on TV?

• 15:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  And like Apollo's on TV and you're, the first time you see, like you see, you see them talking about it, you see them talking about the fight and you're watching them on TV. They do that in sports movies like all the time now.

• 16:09Bill Simmons?

  Now, this is a completely invented. This is why this is such an influential movie. We could talk.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  About a million different things.

• 16:16Bill Simmons?

  I mean, I'll say this, I think until Rod Tidwell, I think Apollo was the best kind of side sports movie character ever.

• 16:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:24Bill Simmons?

  Like if you actually watch all the Apollo scenes, careful in this movie, he's a fucking amazing character. He's like a businessman, the way he talks, he's charismatic, he's doing partly Ali, but he's also. I don't think Ali was like a businessman like this like he's he's a thinker like he's the one who figures out what to do in that fight and and I think you just get a complete feel for him you want to spend more time with him and I have him in the finals against Rod Tidwell.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  It's an interesting thing that he is the character that is in this movie utilizing race and capitalism.

• 17:01Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  All of that stuff against the everyman.

• 17:04Bill Simmons?

  The Italian Stallion.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Right. It's almost it's it takes that and you know there's a specific.

• 17:11Bill Simmons?

  Cause he knows.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:12Bill Simmons?

  He knows what's gonna sell and it's like he's got to fight a white guy from Philly.

• 17:15Chris Ryan?

  It's a great juxtaposition too because the three or four of the main characters of this movie are like almost non-verbal they're like barely articulate.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:24Bill Simmons?

  That was bad. No, you're right. That was like a nice way to put it.

• 17:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, like I mean Adrian, Paulie and Rocky are kind of like either drunk shy to the point of petrification or like brain dead.

• 17:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 17:34Chris Ryan?

  And then.

• 17:35Bill Simmons?

  Adrian's basically Raymond Babbitt for the first 40 minutes of this movie.

• 17:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, until he pulls the glasses off.

• 17:40Bill Simmons?

  She's like playing with the Cincinnati Reds baseball cards.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  He'll he'll woken something in her.

• 17:45Chris Ryan?

  But then.

• 17:47Chris Ryan?

  But so you basically like when Apollo is narrating all this stuff of like I don't want Bob Justice or whoever the fuck he was gonna fight like that's the only thing that kind of keeps this movie going for a while because otherwise it's just people wandering around in the dark you know like it's.

• 18:01Bill Simmons?

  And the promoter is great too like he just every Jergens moment is great but that there's that scene when they're just beating the shit out of each other in the end and it just cuts to him and he's just sitting there with like his fucking cigar just like yeah. Box office.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  And then even when Apollo's going through and he clearly lost the fight you could watch the movie 15 times in a row and Apollo lost right but.

• 18:22Bill Simmons?

  He definitely lost the first two rounds.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 18:24Bill Simmons?

  I guess 14 might have been a 10-8.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  And it's like there's a statement that the movie is making about how cynical Apollo was about picking Rock.

• 18:34Chris Ryan?

  And how he doesn't train hard enough and everything.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 18:37Bill Simmons?

  That was one of the big scenes when the meat locker the meat whenever that scene when Duke's watching it it's like yo man.

• 18:44Chris Ryan?

  Hear them.

• 18:44Bill Simmons?

  This guy this guy means business and Apollo's like yeah yeah I mean business too and he's just like reading the Wall Street Journal.

• 18:52Bill Simmons?

  I love Apollo is so great.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  But that character in a in a way that's a revolutionary character.

• 18:58Bill Simmons?

  No question.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Particularly as a black man right there to to be the guy that he he's the one. That's talking specifically about America and the American dream.

• 19:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Everything that America.

• 19:10Chris Ryan?

  And he's like conducting a little bit of a symphony. He was like, well, the like it's Philly. They're gonna go for this Italian guy, Columbus, the bicentennial. Like he's orchestrating a story.

• 19:19Bill Simmons?

  Right. Six years after they wouldn't let Ali fight.

• 19:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:22Bill Simmons?

  And this is like clearly like it's an Ali based character. And the reason Stallone came up with the idea for the movie is he's watching Webner Ali in seventy five, which was the real life version of this. Webner ends up suing him and undisclosed settlement.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:35Bill Simmons?

  But that's part of the lore of the movie is Stallone watched that fight. Webner was like this, you know, there's been documentaries, movies about him, but he's banged up face. He's getting killed by Ali, but last fifteen rounds. Stallone so inspired pumps out the movie in three and a half days.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Can I ask a question about going back to what you guys were talking about? Would Good Will Hunting be in the same mode of a movie where the guys just went, fuck it, we're gonna make our own movie and explodes?

• 20:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the only difference though is those guys.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Around for a while.

• 20:04Bill Simmons?

  But those guys had been in movies. Affleck and Damon, like they hadn't had their A-list break, but they'd been in stuff. Like Affleck was in Chasing Amy the year before and Damon was in a bunch of stuff. I think he had gotten, he'd gotten the Rainmaker by then. He was in school ties.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  The Rainmaker hits almost.

• 20:18Bill Simmons?

  Stallone was in Paradise Alley. That was it.

• 20:20Chris Ryan?

  And I think also, I mean, I don't remember. I'd have to go back and look, but like, I don't know that Damon and Affleck would have said no if they were like, we're gonna make this script. But like these two giant movie stars are gonna be and you guys get paid for the script. Like I think they may have been like, hey, we're keeping it moving and we're, I, I don't know. It was like Stallone was basically like, I'm either writing it and starring in it or it's not getting me.

• 20:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, there was a piece that I didn't know about how he sold it to ABC with Henry Winkler. Cause they worked together and then ABC was basically like, we're changing everything. Thanks for the script. Here's some money. And he convinced Winkler to give it back to him.

• 20:55Chris Ryan?

  Well, no, and it crucially, it's like Winkler has to go back to ABC, ask for the script back. They're like, no, thanks.

• 21:01Bill Simmons?

  But he's the Fonz.

• 21:01Chris Ryan?

  He's like, I'm Fonzie. Like, so if you don't wanna fuck with Happy Days, you'll give it back or you sell it back to me at cost.

• 21:07Bill Simmons?

  And then it's this two year dance or one year dance, however long it was of people wanting to buy the script, but put a famous actor in there.

• 21:14Chris Ryan?

  Khan or whatever.

• 21:14Bill Simmons?

  I gotta say, it's an amazing, in the bet on your, if there was the bet on yourself book, Stallone betting on himself is a chapter.

• 21:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:21Bill Simmons?

  I'll take way less money. I have to star in it. I want to be the writer and star.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Is there a version of Stallone's career where he is primarily a writer? That he's more of a filmmaker actor? If he just.

• 21:34Bill Simmons?

  I think he's too charismatic.

• 21:36Chris Ryan?

  But he is, he has suggested, or like when he talks about it, like I think that he has suggested that that's like a career he would have happily had, you know, like that he really wanted to be a filmmaker and he thinks of himself as an artist more than like, you know, in some ways like Rocky is golden handcuffs, right? He's returned to this franchise over the decades so many times, but.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Rambo two, Rambo.

• 21:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but I wonder if he's like, I would have liked to have made more movies that are like on the waterfront or whatever, you know?

• 22:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, he definitely. Yeah, he didn't write First Blood. He, you know, Rocky, the moment this comes out, it's like, all right, let's make Rocky two. Come on, guys. What are we waiting for? And then that comes out and then he's trying, he, you know, he's in Nighthawks, he's in Victory. But then he has that second run with Rocky three and First Blood same year. And then that's it. He has one of the best, probably six year A-list movie star runs ever.

• 22:31Bill Simmons?

  All seemed inconceivable if you watch Rocky one. He's got to lose weight. He's got to look more leading man. It was tough to separate Rocky from Stallone. You know, like he's in Nighthawks, he grew a beard.

• 22:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:41Bill Simmons?

  And he's like, all right, I'm street cop Stallone, but is, and then he's in Victory, loses a ton of weight and he's the goalie. And it's like, all right, it's still Rocky. And it really took him until, I would say 82, 83 to be Stallone.

• 22:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And obviously he spends most of his career like in and out of that persona, really until Copland.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Another physical transformation there. Yeah.

• 23:04Bill Simmons?

  By the way, we've done, this is our 11th Stallone rewatchables. He's moved into the top five.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  What all have you guys done?

• 23:10Bill Simmons?

  He's tied. I mean, we've done a bunch of them.

• 23:13Chris Ryan?

  I thought you might crash into Hackman at the last second here.

• 23:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, I'm waiting for the results. Cruise 15, De Niro Pacino 13, Denzel and Stallone 11. That's our top five. Awesome.

• 23:27Chris Ryan?

  How many more Stallones are still sitting? Are you scouting? Are you at the combine looking at stolen?

• 23:32Bill Simmons?

  There's a couple of good ones left.

• 23:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:34Bill Simmons?

  We haven't done Lockup. We haven't done Daylight.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Lockup.

• 23:37Bill Simmons?

  You a Daylight fan?

• 23:38Speaker 02

  I like Daylight.

• 23:39Bill Simmons?

  Stallone has to say.

• 23:40Chris Ryan?

  You did Cliffhanger, right?

• 23:41Bill Simmons?

  We did Cliffhanger. I was ready to do it again, though.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  But see. The Stallone's, I mean.

• 23:46Bill Simmons?

  Rambo two we haven't done.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  So you're never gonna do Cobra, right?

• 23:49Bill Simmons?

  Murdock did Cobra already.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Did Cobra? Oh, fuck yeah. Love Cobra. Have you done Tango and Cash?

• 23:54Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Oh shit. Well, you you got Tango and Cash is one of my favorite movies.

• 23:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, we we can.

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• 24:58Bill Simmons?

  Retango?

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of my favorite movies.

• 25:01Bill Simmons?

  Let's uh, we'll take a break, come back a little more and talk about this movie. Just quickly on the ultimate sports movie recipe. Surprise out of nowhere star. Killer supporting parts. So we mentioned Apollo Creed, but you also have Mickey. You have Polly, the least likable character, probably the nineteen seventies, other than maybe Travis Pickle. And then uh, and then uh, Adrian. And then you have Gotso, the lone shark guy.

• 25:25Chris Ryan?

  My god.

• 25:26Bill Simmons?

  And you have Gotso's driver, Gotso's driver, the funniest character probably of the nineteen seventies. And then you have uh, Jergens.

• 25:34Chris Ryan?

  Yep.

• 25:34Bill Simmons?

  Mm hmm. And Duke, who's not named in Rocky one and eventually becomes Duke. Paula was like a son to me.

• 25:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Bill Simmons?

  I raised him. When he died. A part of me died too.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Duke has some all time heaters.

• 25:50Bill Simmons?

  Why wasn't Duke?

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Duke, Duke has some Duke.

• 25:53Bill Simmons?

  Duke's the best.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  This, this, the guys all wrong for us. Like Duke, like Duke has some.

• 25:57Bill Simmons?

  I don't like, I don't like southpaws.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Like Duke, Duke has some all. Heaters when you just let do cook.

• 26:04Bill Simmons?

  So we got the killer sporting parts with perfect underdog story. Great music, great all time sports movie music, multiple chill scenes. I always call them chill scenes when you're watching like the gonna fly now and he starts racing the boat. You're like, ah, and then the great ending. This is the recipe. This is the recipe that was then copied for 48 years.

• 26:26Chris Ryan?

  Where you were watching this, I, you're, I, I know you're kids, you maybe you just assume, but like,

• 26:33Chris Ryan?

  did you wa, were you watching this being like, and of, of course, like Rocky's got, got a win at the end, right? Like, oh, yeah, sports movie like idea of like,

• 26:40Bill Simmons?

  This was Bad News Bears too. Those were the two movies that year that flipped. Oh, you think they're gonna win at the end? Watch this and then they don't win.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Something else about the movie, it, to me, it establishes the sports movie to where a victory for our main character is this transformational victory for all of our supporting characters too. Like, everybody learns a lesson along with Rock like,

• 27:06Bill Simmons?

  Paulie got $3,000.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Paulie, like Rock pulls everybody, Mickey, everyone, like by the time you get to like Cinderella man, you realize that he's not just fighting for him, he's fighting for everybody, he's fighting for, like, everyone kind of gets pulled out of their thing by what this guy does.

• 27:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, some other stuff, other piece of this big picture, the, uh, we mentioned the still on breakout movie. Adrian is not a wet blanket in this movie.

• 27:36Bill Simmons?

  But we get to Rocky four and it's full bloom, like doesn't even go to Russia with him. I think for the most part, really great sports movie girlfriend in this one. Like, just additive, supportive, wants him to win, loves him so much, she can't go out there to watch the fight, doesn't want to see him get, but then can't resist, has to come out.

• 27:55Chris Ryan?

  A different time in the American economy when a woman could make a living working in an exotic fish store in South Philadelphia or in Kensington.

• 28:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, never more than one customer in there.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  How much we made today, Adrian?

• 28:07Chris Ryan?

  Six dollars.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  And they just getting fucked over?

• 28:11Chris Ryan?

  Six dollars, yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Well, that's okay.

• 28:13Bill Simmons?

  Did those caviar eggs sell yet?

• 28:14Speaker 02

  No.

• 28:15Chris Ryan?

  Providing a big service to the community.

• 28:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Gigantic.

• 28:17Bill Simmons?

  Right across the scummy gym in a porn theater. I don't know where everyone is today.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Adrian, um, you know, the guy singing doo-wop can use the toilet. So, you know, we play our part. All white doo-wop group.

• 28:31Chris Ryan?

  We're gonna get to it.

• 28:32Bill Simmons?

  Stallone's, Stallone's bro.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  All white doo-wop group, loved it.

• 28:37Bill Simmons?

  Um, your Mickey thoughts?

• 28:41Speaker 02

  So, you know, having been around the boxing gym a lot, everybody in there is essentially Mickey. Like, you, you, you know, they have their favorites, they, they, they do the whole, uh, you, you're not putting enough into your boxing career. When I was a kid, I didn't like Mickey. I thought that Mickey sucked. As I got older, something changed. I'll tell you what it is. When you get older, the first thing you lose patience for is people squandering their talent and their ability. That's the first thing that goes. I didn't know why people used to do that to me, like, when I was a kid. I'd be like, look how big Van is. And one of my uncles would be like, yeah, he ain't gonna do nothing with it.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  I'd be like, goddamn, I'm eating my cereal. What the fuck is wrong with you? But like, now, when I look at Mickey and I go, he was so disappointed in Rocky because he saw what Rocky could have been, and that's why he was treating him like shit. So that's a character that you kind of age with. Um, because at first, when I first saw the movie, I was like, whoa, I had seen the old one, Rocky loves Mickey so much. I was like, why? He's kind of an asshole for the first heart.

• 29:50Bill Simmons?

  Rock's coming into, he's coming into the gym smoking a lung dart. Hey, where's my locker? Hold on, dessert ashtray?

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Mick gives his locker away.

• 30:01Bill Simmons?

  To the dipper.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Continuously tells him how shitty he is and then becomes kind of grifter.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  When the hundred fifty thousand dollar deal comes by now.

• 30:11Bill Simmons?

  Such an important scene.

• 30:12Chris Ryan?

  It's an incredible scene. It's also like shows Mick in this like incredibly, I mean, maybe not self consciously vulnerable way where he's like, look at, look at the newspaper clipping of me. And you're just like, oh, this is a guy who has newspaper clippings about himself like stuffed into his pockets. Like he's, he's kind of pathetic in some ways. Yeah.

• 30:29Bill Simmons?

  I got hot, but I ain't got no locker, do I, Mick? Tough one.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Mick says it's like, I'm seventy five years old. Like it never happened for me. I just want to be around anyone who still has the chance that it could happen for them.

• 30:41Bill Simmons?

  So this movie won three Oscars, Best Picture, Director and Editing, ten nominations, first sports film ever to win Best Picture. This was kind of an amazing Oscars year.

• 30:53Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about it.

• 30:55Bill Simmons?

  It beats All the President's Men, Network, Taxi Driver, Bound for Glory.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Jesus Christ.

• 31:02Bill Simmons?

  John Avetson wins for Best Director. He beats Alan J. Kula for All the President's Men, Imar Bergman, Sidney Lumet for Network and whoever did Seven Beauties. And then, uh, Stallone loses to Peter Finch in Network. De Niro loses as Travis Bickle.

• 31:27Bill Simmons?

  And, uh, William Holden loses.

• 31:28Chris Ryan?

  I would make the argument that I, I think Holden's better in Network than Peter Finch, but aside from that, like.

• 31:33Bill Simmons?

  I, that's probably a De Niro year, if we're redoing that one. And then, Talia Shire not nominated. But we do have Burgess Meredith and Burt Young, both nominated, but Jason Robards wins for All the President's Men. All right, you're relitigating this. Who wins in seventy six?

• 31:49Chris Ryan?

  So for Best Picture, definitely, I think All the President's Men should have won Best Picture. Now, you can make the argument that Taxi Driver cinematically is more importantly, like in, in movie history, but I just think All the President's Men is a perfect Oscar Best Picture movie.

• 32:03Bill Simmons?

  I would go All the Pres- well, Network's really great, though.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, Network's really it.

• 32:06Bill Simmons?

  I would go All the President's Men for movie and I would go, uh, Scorsese for Best Director.

• 32:11Chris Ryan?

  But we're, the important part here is it's not Rocky.

• 32:14Bill Simmons?

  It's not Rocky, but I think that speaks to how unique the movie was. And part of what made people respond to it was they just never seen anything like this.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  The awards.

• 32:25Bill Simmons?

  And it really affected them.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  The Oscars fall for phenomena a lot. And if the movie was a phenomenon that you say it was, they get swept up in that. It's a very relatable.

• 32:32Bill Simmons?

  It's like Crash.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:33Bill Simmons?

  Um, Jesus. 1.1 million dollar budget made 225 million, spawned five sequels and three Creed movies. So eight sequels overall.

• 32:42Chris Ryan?

  I wonder how that money got chopped up.

• 32:46Bill Simmons?

  1.1 made 225, but it's gotta be so much more than 225 when you factor in the sequels. So I mean, this has to be a multi-billion dollar franchise, right? Like four, four billion, three billion dollars?

• 32:58Chris Ryan?

  I wonder how they even quantify like the economic impact it had on Philadelphia. Like, you know what I mean? Like I, they don't have points on that, but like it's crazy how this is like a, in a lot of ways, a world changing movie.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, like video games, cartoons, it creates an American mythology. Like Rocky is not a movie character. He's like more akin to like, I don't know, Paul Bunyan.

• 33:21Chris Ryan?

  You refer to Rocky as like, oh, it's like a Rocky story. This guy's coming out of nowhere. I mean, it's, we still do it today.

• 33:27Bill Simmons?

  You could say Rocky, Jaws, Saturday Night Fever and The Godfathers just like created this new form of pop culture, at least a piece of it, right?

• 33:36Chris Ryan?

  But the crazy part about it is when you watch it, you would never think that. Like when you watch the first 45 minutes of Rocky, you're like, wow, I'm watching a really, really sad character set.

• 33:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this is like an indie movie.

• 33:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Um, Roger Ebert, our guy. Four stars last week for Crash.

• 33:57Bill Simmons?

  Four stars this week for Rocky. A description of it would sound like a cliche from beginning to end, but Rocky isn't about a story. It's about a hero and it's inhabited with supreme confidence by a star. His name is Sylvester Stallone. Just raves and raves and raves. Rod's love story. What's the exact perfect age to see this movie? What do you guys think?

• 34:16Chris Ryan?

  Thirteen.

• 34:17Bill Simmons?

  I had thirteen.

• 34:18Chris Ryan?

  Do you need to be in puberty and care about girls a little bit? Or they care about romantic relationships a little bit? Because otherwise, you're gonna be really bored for the first two turns of this.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  I said thirteen in nineteen ninety-three. But like now, at this particular time, and I think you'd have to be like twenty-six or twenty-seven.

• 34:37Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  But I think that the kids that watch this, that would watch the movie now, a lot of them, they're not gonna stick it out with Rocky through the early parts.

• 34:46Bill Simmons?

  I know, my kids didn't. My kids wanted to watch Rocky III and Rocky IV.

• 34:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 34:49Bill Simmons?

  This was too slow, first forty-five. Most rewatchable scene? I gotta give, I gotta start. I have a bunch, I have probably too many. But I love the beginning with the Spider Rico fight. Pre-credits. The headbutt gets me. I like the, uh, the smoke after the fight when Spider Rico is just lying in the, on the bed. You got lucky. And it goes right into, I like when they get paid. Spider gets seventy dollars and twenty cents. Rocky gets forty dollars and fifty-five cents.

• 35:18Chris Ryan?

  Taxes out on these guys.

• 35:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 35:19Chris Ryan?

  I can't sure that's going to the government.

• 35:22Bill Simmons?

  And then he walks out and we go in to take it back with our diverse doo-wop group.

• 35:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Bill Simmons?

  And then we're into the opening credits.

• 35:27Chris Ryan?

  Just to back up a second, uh, if you don't get the theme song and the title sequence and the fight in the beginning of this movie, I think a lot of people would be like, what the fuck am I watching?

• 35:39Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 35:39Chris Ryan?

  Because it gives you the sense, if you just start with this guy like wandering through the night, Philadelphia, smoky.

• 35:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Chris Ryan?

  Like, I, I think people would be like, yo, I thought this was a sports movie. You know, but this gives you, hey, just so you know, at some point, then, then, then.

• 35:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's coming.

• 35:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And this guy can fight.

• 35:58Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 35:58Chris Ryan?

  And so you stick around.

• 35:59Bill Simmons?

  Do you think you could take Spider Rico?

• 36:01Speaker 02

  No. Um, I don't know. I'm, I'm pretty good in the ring though, man.

• 36:04Bill Simmons?

  Couple rounds?

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Uh, maybe. I'll tell you one thing about that, that, that scene though. That is one of the worst in terms of like. Aesthetically boxing movie scenes ever and it's interesting.

• 36:16Bill Simmons?

  Cause of the boxing or because of like the.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  No, it just, there's this portrayal of the sport. When I say worse, I mean, the way.

• 36:22Bill Simmons?

  Unflattering.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Boxing, unflattering is what I meant to say. This portrayal of the sport that these guys are in there just killing themselves for nothing. It's completely dirty. It's corrupt. They, it's just the worst part.

• 36:34Bill Simmons?

  The fans are awful.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Fans are awful, the whole deal. And the first thing Rocky says is, when can I fight again?

• 36:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Like there's something that he's putting himself through and you go and the first thing you go is like, why? And that question is answered at the end of the movie. The end of the movie, the movie takes the entire movie to answer the question of why would someone put themselves through what, what Rocky's going through in the first scene? It's because you might, you could possibly make, everyone is chasing that, walking out there at the end. And so that kind of pays it off. But when you, when I watched that scene, it was like, it's fucking disgusting and terrible and exploitive and the whole.

• 37:14Bill Simmons?

  And I was thinking about how they, you know, in Creed, which very closely follows some of the structures of Rocky, like the first fight is in Tijuana and it's like, no Creed can fucking fight. Like Creed's knocking this dude out like, and it's not like, oh, like this, why is this guy fighting? You're like, you're watching me like, he can fight. Yeah, yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Remember that in Creed, he's, but he is the guy who's already knows that it's over. Yeah.

• 37:36Bill Simmons?

  I'm combining three small scenes together because they're all in a row. Apollo breaking out his bicentennial plan. Apollo, I like it. It's very American. No jergens. It's very smart. Right into Gotso's driver. Hey, Rock. I heard she's retarded. Take her to the zoo. I hear retards like the zoo. I'm sorry to say the R word. It's so, it's so, the driver is like the worst human being probably ever. And every time he pops up, I'm like, the driver.

• 38:07Chris Ryan?

  Seventy-five thing in this movie.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Rock, I like when Rock has had enough of it and he just goes after him.

• 38:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm right here.

• 38:18Bill Simmons?

  This guy just, why does he hate Rocky so much? What did Rocky do?

• 38:22Chris Ryan?

  Well, Rocky's not a very good collector. Rocky's letting a lot of guys off. Not breaking enough thumbs.

• 38:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, then we get right from there back to the office with Apollo going. This is what I'm looking for. The Italian Stallion. The soft paw. Like you mess around with soft paws. I like that whole section.

• 38:39Bill Simmons?

  Jergens making Rocky the offer.

• 38:41Chris Ryan?

  Great.

• 38:42Bill Simmons?

  Right into the press conference. I fight in clubs. I'm really a ham and egger. We stopped using the phrase ham and egger.

• 38:48Chris Ryan?

  Him asking the secretary for the business card back so that he can keep it as like a keepsake.

• 38:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's so many good subtle touches like that in this movie. You're right.

• 38:57Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, this guy, this guy thinks this is like the only proxy, like the closest he's ever going to get to success is being in this office. So he wants to keep everything he gets from it.

• 39:05Bill Simmons?

  He thinks he'll be a sparring partner.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  It's funny. This movie is the definition of a rewatchable because we know that we're looking at Rocky Balboa.

• 39:13Chris Ryan?

  I know.

• 39:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  But we, we, he doesn't know that he's Rocky Balboa, but we know.

• 39:19Chris Ryan?

  It's like a superhero movie.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, like we know that we're looking at Rocky Balboa. So the entire.

• 39:22Bill Simmons?

  We don't know he's gonna end the Cold War.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Right, the whole deal. He's gonna go on to become, he's already got like 21 losses, but he's gonna end up, he's gonna go on to become one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. The whole, now like we know we're looking at him.

• 39:35Bill Simmons?

  Rocky, do you believe America is the land of opportunity? I said this to CR in 2011.

• 39:40Chris Ryan?

  I did.

• 39:41Bill Simmons?

  I was trying to get him to come to Greenland. It's like, CR? Do you believe? I also love, I just want to say hi to my girlfriend, Yo Adrian. And then this is when the, you know, it said this stuff on TV didn't bother me none. It did. Mickey trying to convince Rocky to hire him, we mentioned.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 39:59Speaker 06

  I never had no management. It's a trouble. But now I got all this knowledge. I got it up here and I want to give it to you. I want to give you this knowledge. I want to take care of you. I want to make sure that all this shit that happened to me doesn't happen to you. You know what I mean? The fight's set. Listen to me. I want to be your manager. You follow that, do you?

• 40:20Chris Ryan?

  The monologue improvised?

• 40:22Bill Simmons?

  I love the door opening, opening and closing because he thinks Mickey left, but he didn't. Then he slams the door again, then he opens and he just starts screaming incoherently, which is some of my favorites alone.

• 40:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:33Bill Simmons?

  Ah, you talking about pride? What about my pride, Nick? What about my pride? And then I like the world wordless reconciliation.

• 40:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:42Bill Simmons?

  From far away, just some good filmmaking.

• 40:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Bill Simmons?

  Possible great shot Gordo. What'd you have for great shot Gordo?

• 40:47Chris Ryan?

  Oh, the running up there.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 40:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:52Chris Ryan?

  It's actually great shot Garrett, because he's the Steadicam inventor.

• 40:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 40:55Chris Ryan?

  He's there.

• 40:55Bill Simmons?

  Great shot Garrett.

• 40:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:57Bill Simmons?

  Rocky's TV interview in the meat freezer, which also gets the Big Kahuna Burger Award for best use of food and drink. Mate, you could even argue it might have to replace the Big Kahuna Burger.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  I'll be honest with you, there's another candidate, though.

• 41:10Bill Simmons?

  What do you got?

• 41:11Speaker 02

  The turkey.

• 41:12Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's a great one.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're right. The turkey. Turkey's a tough one.

• 41:17Bill Simmons?

  Because Paul keeps like the one gross. And then he's like touching people with it with the grease.

• 41:22Chris Ryan?

  Oh, my God.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  He's wielding the turkey leg as a scepter as he's throwing her Thanksgiving turkey. I don't know. What a bastard.

• 41:30Bill Simmons?

  And it's like the third worst thing he did in the movie. I like when they're when they're doing the TV interview and and they're about to film it and the guy's like, hey, the meat guy's sticking his head in. Doing that. Duke's watching. Yeah, I'm in business too.

• 41:43Chris Ryan?

  He hears him. He hears the punches, right?

• 41:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 41:46Chris Ryan?

  Because Duke's got his back to the TV and then he's like turns around slowly.

• 41:49Bill Simmons?

  What's going on here?

• 41:50Chris Ryan?

  He hears the punches.

• 41:51Bill Simmons?

  What do you think this would if they had social media in 1976? How many views is this getting?

• 41:56Chris Ryan?

  Him hitting the.

• 41:57Bill Simmons?

  Apollo's opponent punching meat in a meat locker. I feel like this is like 10 million. 10 million views, right?

• 42:02Speaker 02

  I tell you what, man.

• 42:03Bill Simmons?

  Charlamagne sending that to you.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:05Bill Simmons?

  Did you see this guy was fighting Apollo?

• 42:06Speaker 02

  I don't know, bro.

• 42:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  This dude is Apollo ready for this guy, bro?

• 42:09Chris Ryan?

  The aerials, like, I heard that wasn't real meat.

• 42:15Bill Simmons?

  All of a sudden, this goes into the gonna fly now training sequence, which I forgot. Like, we're like, oh, we're doing this.

• 42:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:22Bill Simmons?

  One-handed push-ups, races the huge boat, second chance at the stairs, which we set up earlier with that 5 a.m. brutal training session.

• 42:32Chris Ryan?

  With the eggs, yeah.

• 42:34Bill Simmons?

  Honestly, I think this is one of the best sports movie scenes of all time.

• 42:37Chris Ryan?

  Of course it is.

• 42:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. It has to be. If you're just arguing about them, this has to be one of the first ones.

• 42:41Chris Ryan?

  The great works.

• 42:42Bill Simmons?

  Unless you want to go Rocky II on me with all the kids.

• 42:44Chris Ryan?

  Seriously, like inside of that building, the art museum is some of the greatest works of art in like the history of the world. There's like medieval suits of armor. There's like tombs from Egypt. There's paintings from Impressionism.

• 42:58Bill Simmons?

  The dress could kill ladies glove.

• 42:59Chris Ryan?

  And it's just literally like every day there is a line of cars and vans waiting to take pictures with the Rocky statue there. It is still like this iconic thing.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  How important is this movie? This is gonna sound so stupid. The city has so much history. How important is this movie to the contemporary identity of Philadelphia?

• 43:17Chris Ryan?

  I think it was big during my childhood. It was huge during my childhood.

• 43:21Bill Simmons?

  Peak in the eighties.

• 43:22Chris Ryan?

  I don't see a lot of dudes being like, man, Rocky's really means a lot to me, but it's like, you have to remember Iverson's 25 years ago now. So it's like, this is a very long time ago.

• 43:34Bill Simmons?

  They got my trunks wrong. That scene when he goes into the spectrum.

• 43:37Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:39Bill Simmons?

  Doesn't matter, does it? I'm sure you're gonna give us a great show. And then he knows like, oh God, I'm gonna fucking get smoked. Goes back, talks to Adrian.

• 43:46Speaker 04

  Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed.

• 43:50Speaker 04

  And if I can go that distance.

• 43:53Speaker 04

  You see, and that bell rings and I'm still standing.

• 44:02Speaker 04

  I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  That I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood.

• 44:11Bill Simmons?

  I love all that stuff. It's like, you got me, Rock. You had me a half hour ago. I didn't need this speech. You got me. I'm splitting the fight up into three scenes. The entire fight entrance. Paulie got three grand. I got the robe. Shrewd. Uh, the Uncle Sam entrance from Apollo, which is great. The him talking shit to Sly.

• 44:30Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:31Bill Simmons?

  And Sly is like so stupid in the, in the pre-fight, but it's great. Was he talking to me? Yeah, he's talking to you. Uh, and then the Joe Frazier cameo is amazing.

• 44:41Chris Ryan?

  Awesome. You hear people chanting like Frazier in the background. Yeah.

• 44:45Bill Simmons?

  Took me a long time. And then I love the nicknames. The master disaster. Is that one of the best nicknames ever?

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Love it. King of Sting. All of that stuff.

• 44:55Bill Simmons?

  First two rounds of the fight. The first round knockdown is one of the most exciting sports movie moments ever.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 45:01Bill Simmons?

  I love the bar shot, the guys jumping around.

• 45:04Chris Ryan?

  In the first round, as they're like, sort of feeling each other out. It's never like, those are like, he's actually like, missing, like, they're not like, that's not bad stunt work.

• 45:12Bill Simmons?

  No, I think it's just slapping.

• 45:16Bill Simmons?

  Breaks his nose. Duke does though, he doesn't know it's a damn show. He thinks it's a damn fight. And then the end of round two is great.

• 45:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:23Bill Simmons?

  Cause it's like, oh, Rocky's not going away. Here we go. We do the montage. Fourteenth round. Next scene. I think this is my most rewatchable.

• 45:33Chris Ryan?

  This is because of Cut Me Mick?

• 45:35Bill Simmons?

  No, I love the down, down, stay down. And he's just like, and Adrian comes out. And then Apollo with the shoulder slump is my favorite.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:44Bill Simmons?

  Where he's just like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. This guy's got up again?

• 45:48Speaker 02

  You like that?

• 45:49Bill Simmons?

  And then he comes back with a.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  And this is just all body shots.

• 45:52Bill Simmons?

  But they repeat the same shot. It's two punches that they run twice.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Reminds me of the, the fight that was on last week where.

• 45:59Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Where Zhang just gets nuked out by body shots.

• 46:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  And you, and that's his thing. He's gonna go to the ribs, just like the slabs of meat.

• 46:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, cause don't they say Apollo's bleeding internally, basically?

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he just can't handle it.

• 46:13Bill Simmons?

  Mickey calls it. Mickey tells that guy, he goes to the body like nothing we've ever seen. Uh, Cut Me Mick is great too. And then the ending.

• 46:20Chris Ryan?

  Cut Me Mick is so gross.

• 46:21Bill Simmons?

  So gross.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Cut Me Mick is disgusting, y'all.

• 46:24Speaker 06

  I can't see nothing. Gotta open my eye. Cut me, Mick. I don't wanna do it. Come on, cut me. Cut me.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Cut me, cut me, Mick.

• 46:42Chris Ryan?

  I didn't even know that was a thing. It's so great that they bring the cut guy in at like the eighth inning.

• 46:46Bill Simmons?

  He's just got, hold on, I got my razor blade here. Let me, let me get that. And then, uh, the ending. It seems like he's gonna get him. And could be no rematch. Don't want one. Where's your hat? Still champion Apollo.

• 47:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Best sports movie ending ever. It's in the running.

• 47:05Chris Ryan?

  During the fight, especially on repeat viewing, I think you can tell that the stadium's empty when they're fighting or very empty.

• 47:12Bill Simmons?

  They weren't counting on Blu-ray in 2025.

• 47:15Chris Ryan?

  Some of the ADR, like sound effects stuff could have been better, but that bell, everybody rushing in.

• 47:21Bill Simmons?

  The music.

• 47:22Chris Ryan?

  Shot of everybody rushing in the music, him just being like, you automatically kind of intuitively know it doesn't matter if he's won or not. It's because he's stuck through the whole fight. He did win.

• 47:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he earned the champ's respect.

• 47:35Chris Ryan?

  It's just like, holy shit, man.

• 47:37Bill Simmons?

  Paulie finally does something nice. He lets the rope open for Adrian.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  He doesn't get.

• 47:42Bill Simmons?

  And throws a turkey at her.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  What he wants, but he leaves the fight with so much more than what he came into the fight with. That even looking at him as battered and bruised as he is.

• 47:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  You're like, it was worth it.

• 47:57Bill Simmons?

  What's your most rewatchable scenes here? Gonna fly now?

• 48:00Chris Ryan?

  I think I, I'd probably go with the, the training. Yeah. The, the finally getting up the art museum steps to go to fly now.

• 48:06Bill Simmons?

  I love the 14th round.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  I think it's, I think it's the training, but I do want to just give some love to Rocky and Adrian's first date.

• 48:12Bill Simmons?

  At the ice skating rink.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  The ice skating rink where he's, he just, he just demonstrates so many things. Number one, like the script really is perfect. Because Rocky's talent is determination.

• 48:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  His, that's what, that's what his talent is. His talent is determination. And throughout the whole movie, you just see a determined guy. He's gonna get her on the ice rink. He's gonna tell her the stupid southpaw story. And you can just see them kind of closing in on each other to the whole time to where, you know, he kind of accosts her in his apartment later on.

• 48:43Bill Simmons?

  She's telling him about fish food.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:44Chris Ryan?

  I love the fact that the guy keeps yelling eight minutes.

• 48:47Bill Simmons?

  Oh, seven minutes.

• 48:49Chris Ryan?

  But it's like, it gives their date urgency. Like if you can't close here, you know?

• 48:53Bill Simmons?

  Hey, this episode of the rewatchables is presented by State Farm. There's a lot to say when buying a new home or car, but only one thing to say when you need help to protect them. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. What's the most 1976 thing about this movie?

• 49:12Chris Ryan?

  I think white doo-wop.

• 49:14Bill Simmons?

  That's up there.

• 49:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  I get it.

• 49:16Chris Ryan?

  Maybe not nineteen seventy, I mean, I don't, did we still have such, such voices back then? I don't know.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Like doo-wop.

• 49:22Bill Simmons?

  Way doo-wop. Well, Color Me Bad was like really the last moment.

• 49:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but like.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  They were, some of them were black.

• 49:28Bill Simmons?

  Some of them, I know, but they had a couple of white guys.

• 49:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Do you remember, do you, have you ever seen a group of men singing in harmony on a street corner? In real life?

• 49:35Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 49:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's what I had most nineteen seventy six thing. Good natured winos and doo-wop singers versus just fentanyl addicts, which we would have now.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 49:45Bill Simmons?

  Now we have people with no pants on, just wandering in a circle.

• 49:48Chris Ryan?

  Carry a tune, you know?

• 49:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  If they could just sing a little bit, we could.

• 49:54Chris Ryan?

  Fucking guy, bro.

• 49:57Bill Simmons?

  Take it back.

• 50:01Chris Ryan?

  Bill falling up with a fur coat, be like, let me hear a tune, fellas. All right, and then throws him a quarter.

• 50:11Bill Simmons?

  It wasn't a Sarah though.

• 50:14Bill Simmons?

  Drunk street characters were always like these benevolent movie characters. Like he picks up that one guy and brings him in the bar and she's like, let me put you over on the seat.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:22Bill Simmons?

  Have, have a drink with Eddie.

• 50:25Bill Simmons?

  Those days are gone.

• 50:25Chris Ryan?

  A lot of the stuff that we lionize on this podcast, smoky dive bars, nineteen seventy streets and stuff. This is the real shit in this movie.

• 50:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:35Chris Ryan?

  And it kind of makes me second guess whether I would love to be in a smoke filled bar, the Lucky Seven Tavern, with overhead lighting and three absolutely like guys dying of kidney failure, like.

• 50:48Bill Simmons?

  Right. And Paulie has said that the mayor is broken.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Right, right. Thanksgiving, Christmas, just the shittiest life. You know how many times in this movie, somebody accuses somebody else of stinking? It just stinks.

• 51:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  It stinks in here.

• 51:00Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  My house stinks. All this desperation.

• 51:04Bill Simmons?

  What's age the best? See, I mentioned the Steadicam.

• 51:07Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:08Bill Simmons?

  This is the third movie ever they used a Steadicam, but the most famous one. And, uh.

• 51:14Bill Simmons?

  Steadicam, I would say is, it's not an MVP of the movie, but it's, it's

• 51:17Chris Ryan?

  Garrett Brown, inventor of the Steadicam, and he basically was like trying to get people interested in the technology and, and Rocky winds up becoming more or less the guinea pig for, for the technology that changes cinema.

• 51:30Bill Simmons?

  Apparently the run up the stairs was his idea because to show them how the Steadicam worked, he did a test run with his wife to show him what it would look, show them what it would look like. And that led to how they did it. Apparently, they offered him either money or points in the movie and he took the money and has some regrets.

• 51:49Chris Ryan?

  Poor guy, gotta bet on yourself.

• 51:51Bill Simmons?

  It's a tough, that was not a good, that's not gonna be in the bet on yourself book.

• 51:54Chris Ryan?

  Garrett Brown.

• 51:55Bill Simmons?

  What's aged the best? The music and the soundtrack, it's still going. You hear that? I mean, how many years have they been playing that in sporting events?

• 52:04Chris Ryan?

  Start of every fourth quarter in America, it feels like.

• 52:07Bill Simmons?

  I have a bunch. What do you have? Anything good?

• 52:09Chris Ryan?

  The actual turtles.

• 52:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 52:11Chris Ryan?

  Still alive as of 2021, which is the last, yeah, last reference I could find of them, but still unkept them.

• 52:16Bill Simmons?

  Oh, wow.

• 52:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  It's amazing.

• 52:18Bill Simmons?

  I'd say with turtles, they don't die. If you get a pet turtle, that's not like, ah, 10 years from now.

• 52:23Chris Ryan?

  Turtles do smell too, I gotta say.

• 52:25Bill Simmons?

  Turtles are an L.

• 52:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  You don't like them?

• 52:27Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  I used to like them when I was back in Louisiana. I see turtles everywhere.

• 52:30Chris Ryan?

  Did you have them in the house, though?

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Probably not.

• 52:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Agnostic on turtles now. Know what's aged the best? Uh, well, first of all, this, I, I personally think that just overall, the sports movie obviously has aged the best, but I think that this, it's because of Rocky.

• 52:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  I think it, without the success and the, you know, cultural penetration of this movie, I think the sports movie period is just like much, much different. Like this is a

• 52:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I wonder if somebody would have figured it out.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  They probably would have.

• 53:01Bill Simmons?

  But we don't know.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  Right. They, I'm sure they would have, right? It's just such an important piece of our culture. But man, does this movie just completely, it's like the Marlon Brando of sports movies. It changes the archetype, period.

• 53:14Chris Ryan?

  You know what I was thinking about the other day is, how come in sports media, we're pretty obsessed with the great teams, the dynasties, the burgeoning dynasties, the Chiefs, the Pats, the like, we're always talking about the Lakers in the NBA or whatever. But in movies, we're never interested in the great teams. We're interested in the underdog teams or the underdog player. Like, nobody wants to watch-

• 53:35Bill Simmons?

  True greatness isn't interesting?

• 53:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you wouldn't watch Moneyball about Brian Cashman. You know, you'd wanna watch Moneyball about a guy trying to put together a team with less money than Brian Cashman. Like, we don't ever make movies that are about like, ah, this is the story of the three Pete.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  I have a thought.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  It's probably because when we're watching those dynasties, it's aspirational. And when we're watching the movies, it's inspirational. We're definitely more Rocky than we are the Yankees. Everybody in this movie feels like they're Rocky. If you watch this movie and you felt like Apollo Creed, then you on some different shit, right? So, we're Rocky probably-

• 54:13Bill Simmons?

  That's why we have sports documentaries.

• 54:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:16Chris Ryan?

  But you know what I mean, though? It's kinda interesting-

• 54:18Speaker 02

  I get it, yeah, for sure.

• 54:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's interesting, because the, the, one of the best sports books ever was The Game by Ken Dryden. Which was about like, the Montreal Canadiens at the tail end of their dynasty, trying to hold it together. It's fascinating. It's basically what The Last Dance is about, too. It's like, can we, can we stay together one last time? So, we've seen it work in documentaries and books, but I've never seen it in a movie.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  But to his point, though, and I've always wondered this, not only do we not get into the underdogs in real life, but we hate them. Like, we, if we are relentlessly critical-

• 54:54Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, like when a-

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Bad teams-

• 54:56Chris Ryan?

  If a random wild card baseball team wins, it's kinda like, this is annoying.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, we don't, we-

• 55:01Chris Ryan?

  It negates the regular season-

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Kinda don't like them, like-

• 55:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  You know, a team's bad, it's like, oh, they suck, I hate them, they're disgusting and all of that. I'm like, look, they're just not having a good season, you know, so it's just different.

• 55:13Bill Simmons?

  We're hypocrites. More what saves the best.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Race and boxing?

• 55:20Bill Simmons?

  I didn't know when this was gonna come up.

• 55:22Chris Ryan?

  You want me to take this one?

• 55:24Speaker 02

  It's the same space. Boxing is legitimately the only place where it's still completely acceptable to be totally tribal.

• 55:33Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  I mean, some people would say that there are other places where it happens, but in boxing, you go to a place like it, it, it, the black guy versus Mexican guy, all the brothers rooting for the black guy, all my Latino brothers and sisters rooting for the Mexican guy.

• 55:49Bill Simmons?

  The English guys fighting all the English people.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  It's just totally, it's just, it's totally okay. It's totally okay. Why are you beating down?

• 55:56Bill Simmons?

  I'm not beating down. No, like, this is just a weird era for sports movies, because it's the, it's the 1.0 era, but most of them are like, you know, it's like Hoosiers, it's Rocky, it's a lot of, our weight here are trying to beat whoever the black guy was in front of them, or the black team.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:13Bill Simmons?

  And then it eventually shifts. But I, you know, I just think that in this case, it's clearly an Ali thing, and it feels like less of a black white thing. But after the fact, it feels black white. I really think this is an Ali thing.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  It definitely is.

• 56:29Bill Simmons?

  Stallone is like, what if I fought Ali? And that's the premise of the movie.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Oh no, Stallone doesn't. I don't think Stallone, I don't think the movie is conceived from the lens of race almost at all.

• 56:37Bill Simmons?

  But I think the perception after the fact was that it was. This is why it became so popular. This is why they had to have a sequel so he would win.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  Well, I think.

• 56:46Bill Simmons?

  I'm not saying it's right. I think that was a narrative.

• 56:47Speaker 02

  There was no way to read it other than that at that time. But then if you kind of realize how obsessive Sylvester Stallone is about boxing, like legitimately, Roy Jones Jr. was supposed to be in Rocky Balboa. He went out and laid an egg in a ring. Stallone removed him from the movie and put Antonio Tarver in the movie.

• 57:07Bill Simmons?

  He was really good.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  Right. And so, like, when you, obviously the movie has racial undertones. overtones the entire thing but all of the race in the film comes from the black heavyweight champion

• 57:21Bill Simmons?

  yeah

• 57:21Speaker 02

  like he is the one and maybe that's intentionally

• 57:23Chris Ryan?

  it's also explicitly discussed how manipulating people's racial biases will lead to a bigger payday lead to a bigger audience right like

• 57:32Speaker 02

  yeah

• 57:33Chris Ryan?

  let's get this guy because of this city because of this time and like here's the story we're gonna tell about him

• 57:38Bill Simmons?

  I think this movie is clean on the race front from Stallone's hands Rocky three becomes a different story

• 57:44Speaker 02

  I mean yeah you know Stallone might not be that clean the movie itself is but but also like even small things like Rocky's locker gets given to

• 57:55Bill Simmons?

  Dipper

• 57:55Chris Ryan?

  Dipper

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Dipper younger

• 57:57Bill Simmons?

  Yo Rock I dig your locker

• 57:59Chris Ryan?

  I did your locker You put me on Skid Row yeah

• 58:01Bill Simmons?

  is that the most boxing gym moment ever the guy taunting Rock from the ring that he digs his locker just out of nowhere

• 58:08Speaker 02

  yeah

• 58:09Bill Simmons?

  it's a pretty good one

• 58:10Speaker 02

  it is a pretty good one

• 58:11Chris Ryan?

  do you ever have moments in the gym where everybody stops training at once because something has happened in the gym

• 58:15Speaker 02

  yeah

• 58:16Chris Ryan?

  that cause like when Mick and Rock are yelling at each other and everybody just stops

• 58:19Speaker 02

  well when you're in the gym with that much testosterone that normally happens because two people have taken something that happened inside of the ring

• 58:26Bill Simmons?

  yeah

• 58:27Speaker 02

  like outside of the ring

• 58:28Bill Simmons?

  right

• 58:28Speaker 02

  you know what I mean and so like because the boxing gym is a pretty chill place it's like very chill but once again the tribalism still exists in there I have said stuff in the boxing gym that I wouldn't say anywhere else like Phil goes wow I remember one time Phil go I walk in the gym Phil goes hey man got somebody for you to work with and I go I'm not sparring anymore Mexicans

• 58:49Speaker 02

  I just I just remember and I said and just like and everybody's laughing I'm like I'm in here for you know fitness I'm not trying to fight somebody that's fighting for the honor of their family so you know

• 59:05Chris Ryan?

  let me finish

• 59:09Chris Ryan?

  Phil's making a playlist of his favorite doo-wops.

• 59:13Bill Simmons?

  Look at that outline.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  Very determined fighters, is all I'm saying.

• 59:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was like that, that card we were watching the other day. When, uh, who was the guy, Sergio Moro?

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:24Bill Simmons?

  He's, he's from Ghana, those guys are warriors.

• 59:28Bill Simmons?

  We were texting about it.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  We're talking about it, see? But it's boxing, so it's okay.

• 59:33Bill Simmons?

  Every time he said it, there was just dead silence from his partners. And then he would just double back on it. This is what I was telling you about Ghana.

• 59:42Bill Simmons?

  More would say it's the best. The 5am, this is the first day I'm gonna start my training.

• 59:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 59:47Bill Simmons?

  And it just being the most miserable thing ever, I think is perfect in this. It's like, I'm gonna start, here's my alarm, I'm gonna have some eggs, do a little run, maybe run the steps. And it's just like, by the end of it, you're holding your side.

• 1:00:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:01Bill Simmons?

  You're coughing up five cigarettes. And it's just super depressing. I loved how they did it and then brought it back. I think it's really smart. Can we talk about Angry Mickey? Who has quotes like, "Yeah, I said that before, you dumb dago."

• 1:00:18Bill Simmons?

  Then he goes, "Yeah, I know, woman weakin' legs."

• 1:00:20Chris Ryan?

  Guys from Ghana, warriors.

• 1:00:25Bill Simmons?

  Rock's like, "I know, woman weakin' legs." And he goes, "Well, let her train ya."

• 1:00:32Bill Simmons?

  "You're gonna eat lightning and you're gonna crap thunder." I love his, like, just Burgess. So I knew Burgess Meredith as the Penguin in the Batman series, because I used to love that series.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Same thing, yeah, me too.

• 1:00:43Bill Simmons?

  Once upon a time, Van.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  See, yeah, you used to be one of those.

• 1:00:45Bill Simmons?

  I love the Batman series. And Burgess Meredith, and then we're like, the Penguin's gonna be mixed trainer?

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:00:50Bill Simmons?

  Anyway.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Twilight Zone.

• 1:00:52Chris Ryan?

  Oh, he's the one with the glasses?

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:55Bill Simmons?

  More would say it's the best. The Meat Freezer is just an amazing, whoever thought of that, give them a gold star. 1970's Philly is fun.

• 1:01:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, you could get into some trouble out there. It seemed really, it's, it's, it's, it's like, it's like when Philly was really in a lot of like, economic despair, so.

• 1:01:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, I don't think New York and Boston were doing any better.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  It's pretty fucked up everywhere.

• 1:01:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think, I think that 70's were rough.

• 1:01:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. So it's mostly Kensington, kinda like Port Richmond shot, shot there, yeah.

• 1:01:23Bill Simmons?

  You put my stuff on Skid Row? It's like that little, they call, when you lose your locker, you go to Skid Row in the boxing gym at the Tuscan.

• 1:01:33Bill Simmons?

  Buckus, Stallone's real dog that Stallone sold for $50 because he was so broke when he was writing this movie. He sold him real life, then got it back after he sold the script.

• 1:01:44Chris Ryan?

  That's nice.

• 1:01:44Bill Simmons?

  And then brings Buckus in there.

• 1:01:46Chris Ryan?

  He gets a lot of breaks here Stallone, getting his script back, getting his dog back.

• 1:01:49Bill Simmons?

  Give him Buckus the Brandy Booth Award, best performance by a pet. Multiple great scenes by Buckus. Woods age the best, the Rocky marathons that eventually get on TV once we got to three or four. And they would just run them all in a row. Although I never understood why they would run off Rocky one, start Rocky two at the end of Rocky one again. Just, you know what I mean?

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  Do a commercial.

• 1:02:11Bill Simmons?

  Go right into the start of Rocky two. It's like.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  They do it with the Godfather. They'll just.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  Right. They'll blow it up.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:21Bill Simmons?

  Uh, another Woods age the best, any scenario where a boxer, UFC fighter, tennis player, or golfer is an out of nowhere story and you just think of Rocky immediately?

• 1:02:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Bill Simmons?

  Right? Especially like with the combat sports, you think of that. Um, last thing, Talia Shire as Adrian, three best picture movies in five years. Godfather one, Godfather two, and Rocky.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Bill Simmons?

  What a run.

• 1:02:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Bill Simmons?

  It's like a fucking Scottie Pippen kind of nineties Bulls run by her.

• 1:02:49Chris Ryan?

  She's great in this.

• 1:02:50Bill Simmons?

  She's really good in this.

• 1:02:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:51Bill Simmons?

  I wanna like nitpick it, but I can't. I think she's good. And it's different than Connie Corleone. It's like she's a different character, right?

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  Connie probably has, well, I mean, fuck you. Fuck you. Come on. I kill you. You kill her like your father. What an intense scene. Come on.

• 1:03:10Chris Ryan?

  I was watching Godfather the other day, the amount of times somebody's like, you think I'm gonna make my godson of an orphan?

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  And they just kill. Like they just a straight lie. Like a whole family of liars.

• 1:03:22Bill Simmons?

  I like at the end when she's under Godfather one, when she's mad at Michael.

• 1:03:26Speaker 02

  Spitting on him.

• 1:03:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Bill Simmons?

  She's like, I know you did him. And then Michael's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Carlos in Vegas. He didn't call.

• 1:03:33Chris Ryan?

  What's going on?

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  You can ask me about my business this one time. Did you do it? No.

• 1:03:37Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:03:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Door closed right on her.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:41Bill Simmons?

  The only other Woods age the best I had, other than Gazza's driver and the Steadicam, was uh. Caso's driver is just a comedic genius. Every, he's just on the screen and you're like, oh my God, this guy. Uh, John Avetson, the director, said the original ending, Apollo was carried out by the crowd and so was Rocky and he pulled Adrian up on the, on his shoulders and they had the happiest night of their life and that was gonna be on and they couldn't pull it off. So then they did this second ending when he walks down the aisle and sees Adrian, cause he lost and they hold hands and they walk into the back and it didn't work. And they decided to reshoot it with the Bill Conery music and came up with the third version of the ending and Avetson says that that saved

• 1:04:25Bill Simmons?

  the movie. Yeah. Like the movie, the ending would have sucked. It would have been a downer.

• 1:04:29Chris Ryan?

  It's so cool that you don't really leave the ring. Yeah. Like, I don't think we wanted to see like. Really good reshoot.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  She legitimately comes into his world. Yeah. By the way, about her performance, I think she actually grounds the movie with her performance.

• 1:04:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, she's good.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  I think at the beginning of the movie, she's kind of the only person, cause even, I mean, Rock is a dude, but he's very over the top, kind of as well, you know, it's like, but I think she, like her subtlety and vulnerability kind of.

• 1:04:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. She's like, and she's also the person who's just like, look around me, like this sucks so much. I have to make myself small so that this doesn't.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:03Chris Ryan?

  Kill, kill me. Like, you know, she's just like, I don't want to like see it. I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to like talk about it.

• 1:05:08Bill Simmons?

  One of my hot takes about this movie is I don't think Polly was a very good brother. It was one of my takeaways. Yeah. I don't know if you guys noticed that. Some of the stuff he did.

• 1:05:18Chris Ryan?

  We're gonna talk about it.

• 1:05:18Bill Simmons?

  Wasn't it? It's coming. Yeah. Great Check Order Award. We said the 5 a.m. training ending, the first time with the wide shot of Philly.

• 1:05:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:27Bill Simmons?

  Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness Award, Best Needle Drop. Could you change this to Gunna Fly Now?

• 1:05:31Chris Ryan?

  I was, I had Reflections, uh, which is the one that samples Cool and the Gang, which was later used by Fresh Prince in summer times. It's just like.

• 1:05:41Bill Simmons?

  I like that too.

• 1:05:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  There's a, there's a, uh.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  There's a record that plays at the end of the movie that was sampled by somebody else in a very popular song that I loved in the 90s.

• 1:05:53Chris Ryan?

  What song?

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  Song's called Victory.

• 1:05:57Chris Ryan?

  By Notorious B.I.G.

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  At the be- at the beginning, somebody raps on the song. Um, but yeah.

• 1:06:04Chris Ryan?

  What, what?

• 1:06:05Bill Simmons?

  Somebody who might be in a lot of trouble these days?

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  When I hear the beginning of it, I just think immediately of that record. And I, and I, and I, and I started doing it almost reflectively. I'm like, yo, the sun don't shines forever. But as long as it's, and then I was like, oh, wow.

• 1:06:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:06:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:06:23Chris Ryan?

  It's tough.

• 1:06:24Bill Simmons?

  The Chess Rockwell and Brock Landers Award for best character name.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  Easy.

• 1:06:27Chris Ryan?

  Rocky and Apollo.

• 1:06:29Bill Simmons?

  It's gotta be Apollo Creed.

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  Apollo Creed is the single best fictional name. It's up there with, it's literally to me, up there with Darth Vader.

• 1:06:38Chris Ryan?

  It's also cool because he talks about names throughout the movie.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:06:41Chris Ryan?

  He's like, oh, no, that's.

• 1:06:42Bill Simmons?

  I gotta say, don't sleep on Spider Rico.

• 1:06:46Bill Simmons?

  I really didn't enjoy him as well. All right, Van, you're up with the flex category. Did you have a flex category you picked?

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, the, the Polly Award for asshole of the film.

• 1:06:57Bill Simmons?

  Goes to Polly?

• 1:06:58Speaker 02

  Goes to Polly.

• 1:06:59Bill Simmons?

  Stu, does this need to be a new award?

• 1:07:00Chris Ryan?

  This is also the weak link of the movie.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, all the whole nine.

• 1:07:03Bill Simmons?

  I, yeah, I had him coming up. I had him coming up in What's A Stage The Worst?

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  There are very few characters that are pure asshole, just all asshole, and it gets worse. Because we now know that at the end, after Rocky gets his fucking face beat in for 15 years building a fortune, what is the reason that Rocky loses all of his money?

• 1:07:26Bill Simmons?

  Rocky V never happened.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  I don't care. He, he loses all of his money and has to open up a small Italian restaurant.

• 1:07:32Chris Ryan?

  Polly.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  Because Polly gives power of attorney to some crazy person, and then Rocky gets all of his money taken.

• 1:07:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  Polly's terrible. He is.

• 1:07:40Bill Simmons?

  I thought he had some decent moments in Rocky IV, just not to defend Polly, but, you know, it's just him and Duke and Russia. There's no other trainers.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  A robot that was like.

• 1:07:48Bill Simmons?

  No, just there was a couple. Rocky IV is probably the best version of Polly.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Polly in this movie.

• 1:07:53Bill Simmons?

  Rocky One Polly is one of the worst human beings in a movie.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  He's, he's a pimp. He literally pimps his sister out.

• 1:07:58Chris Ryan?

  He says, uh, I go out and get your meat every morning. You forgot that, then even give you my sister too. You're such a loser. I didn't get married because of you. You can't live by yourself. I put you two together and you don't forget it. You owe me. Rocky should have punched this guy to death.

• 1:08:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:18Chris Ryan?

  Rocky should have at least thrown him out the fucking window, but should have hit him. And you know what would have happened? Nothing. Now, a single person in that neighborhood would have been like, not Polly.

• 1:08:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:27Chris Ryan?

  It would have just been like, it was, he had it coming.

• 1:08:29Bill Simmons?

  He said, you're busted to his sister.

• 1:08:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Bill Simmons?

  That's like the worst thing you could possibly say to your sister.

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  I mean, Rocky is kind of complicit because Polly makes her go out with him. Polly comes in, he throws, he sacrifices Thanksgiving turkey. That's an all time asshole move. She goes, she, she, I mean, she goes, it's Thanksgiving. I can't go on a date because I'm making the turkey.

• 1:08:52Chris Ryan?

  And it's like a really normal response. It's not like she's like, I have social anxiety. I can't go on a date. She's like, I've been making your fucking dinner all day.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Thanksgiving turkey. This dude takes the turkey, throws it out the window and then eats a piece of it. So he gets some turkey for himself and she's gotta go out with Rock on Thanksgiving.

• 1:09:07Chris Ryan?

  She's gotta go to the stink house after the ice rink with no Thanksgiving dinner.

• 1:09:12Bill Simmons?

  He's an abomination. It's, and it's really jumps out every time you watch it. Cause in like the seventies, it's like, ah, Polly, that irascible. You know, deep down, it's like, there's nothing to like about it.

• 1:09:23Chris Ryan?

  Living in between Rocky and Polly while those two assholes are like yelling out the window. Oh, Polly, I got your sister.

• 1:09:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Chris Ryan?

  My sister's a pig. It's just like, I, I would just be like, come on, guys.

• 1:09:34Bill Simmons?

  Polly Panino. Yeah, we need a Polly Panino. Why is this character so awful? Category, something like that.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  What's, what's with you?

• 1:09:42Bill Simmons?

  I had the, for the butcher's girlfriend award for weak link of the film, either Polly or the, just the Rocky Adrian courting scenes are so slow now in 2025. They're just.

• 1:09:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:52Bill Simmons?

  It's 25 minutes of content that now you're probably doing nine.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Bill Simmons?

  I like the skating rink. I know you like the skating rink. At the same time, if there's a transcript of it, it would be the worst transcript ever.

• 1:10:03Chris Ryan?

  The skating rink is it could have just ended with a kiss at the skating rink and that would be the end of the first date. And instead he's like, let's go back to my house.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  And I was like, you want to come in? That's the plan. He gets the skating rink, then he has to convince her to come inside. Then he has to convince her to stay inside.

• 1:10:16Bill Simmons?

  He's gotta do the, the T-shirt.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  Then he's gotta do the whole, it's like, all right, we get, we get it.

• 1:10:22Chris Ryan?

  And then he starts denying his bodily fluids. That's the tough part, you know? Gets her hooked on it and he's just like, no.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  Cause at the end, she becomes like a little, little mix.

• 1:10:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  She's ready. She, she jumps on it.

• 1:10:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, she's discovered parts of herself.

• 1:10:37Chris Ryan?

  She's like, do you want me to rub you down?

• 1:10:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Bill Simmons?

  She's become a sexual human being.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:10:43Bill Simmons?

  My flex choice, the Steven Seagal hard to kill award for did this movie need a better intimacy coordinator?

• 1:10:54Bill Simmons?

  He kind of malls her a little bit in the first kiss.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  There's no kind of.

• 1:10:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm just, I'm trying to be kind of Rocky. It's a little bit of a mauling.

• 1:11:00Chris Ryan?

  He also, I mean, she doesn't have a lot of options in that scene. Like he's kind of like.

• 1:11:04Bill Simmons?

  Especially she has nowhere to go.

• 1:11:05Chris Ryan?

  I got my phone digging out.

• 1:11:07Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:11:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. She's like, can I use the phone? He's like, oh.

• 1:11:09Bill Simmons?

  It's, it's a little uncomfortable.

• 1:11:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. He subtly asked for consent. So I'm going to kiss you now. But at that point, she was in a spot and I don't feel like she felt like she could do anything else.

• 1:11:19Bill Simmons?

  I also just, another one I would add is the Sean Penn award for excellence in smoking. I thought Stallone smoking was excellent.

• 1:11:25Chris Ryan?

  But we need to maybe add another cigarette award here, which is the Sylvester Stallone award for smoking so much in a movie that you quit smoking.

• 1:11:33Bill Simmons?

  In real life?

• 1:11:33Chris Ryan?

  In real life, he quit after Rocky because he was like, it was too gross. I'd smoked so much on Rocky. I had to, I had to quit.

• 1:11:39Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting. Didn't know that. That wasn't in my research, CR.

• 1:11:42Chris Ryan?

  Stallone is for quitters. Yeah.

• 1:11:44Bill Simmons?

  Wow. Woods age the worst. Everything about Polly. Chuck Webner.

• 1:11:50Chris Ryan?

  Your body's gonna dry up.

• 1:11:54Bill Simmons?

  What mean thing didn't Polly say to her sister?

• 1:11:56Chris Ryan?

  No one says, Paul, you piece of shit, shut up.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:12:00Speaker 02

  Nobody, he, he.

• 1:12:02Bill Simmons?

  Nobody punches him at a bar or anything?

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  He disses the way she looks. He disses her age. He disses everything.

• 1:12:08Chris Ryan?

  I thought about quitting drinking last night, watching Polly. I was like, this is not.

• 1:12:13Bill Simmons?

  Chuck Webner, that whole story is the worst.

• 1:12:18Bill Simmons?

  You mentioned the fight crowd scene, CR. This is the biggest, kind of nitpick all these years later, where I just wish somebody had done a George Lucas and just paid the 50 grand to CGI some fans all over the place.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  Something I feel like for the re. And stuff.

• 1:12:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just if you're gonna be like, hey, we got Rocky on Blu-ray, just spend the 50K.

• 1:12:35Chris Ryan?

  Maybe James Cameron could stop making Avatar movies and instead single-handedly populate the spectrum.

• 1:12:40Bill Simmons?

  We want to be the sports movie consultants. Like, James Cameron should be like, let me just help out a couple of these classics. I'll just put some fans in.

• 1:12:47Chris Ryan?

  Fincher is like moving curtains in Panic Room. Like, we can get Fincher on the crowd here.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  You guys want James Cameron to fix Rocky? He invented a submarine and went to the deepest part of the ocean.

• 1:12:56Bill Simmons?

  Right. Can't he add some fans?

• 1:12:58Speaker 02

  Right, that's what, that's what he's.

• 1:13:01Bill Simmons?

  And then Garrett Brown, the Steadicam guy, not taking points in the picture is age worse. What else do you have, anything?

• 1:13:07Chris Ryan?

  I think Rocky's advice to that 12-year-old girl, you use bad words and maybe you end up becoming a whore.

• 1:13:16Chris Ryan?

  Marie the little whore who hung out at the atomic hoagie shop.

• 1:13:19Bill Simmons?

  It is a leap.

• 1:13:22Bill Simmons?

  You hang out with those guys, use a couple of bad words.

• 1:13:24Chris Ryan?

  I always want to have a kid to say that. You're just feeling, oh, you use bad words.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  You're an imbecile whore.

• 1:13:29Chris Ryan?

  Become a little whore.

• 1:13:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then the weird part about, this is another what's age the worst, is watching that girl in this movie. She then becomes the Rocky Balboa love interest. Remember? The girl he starts dating, and yeah, that's the girl he starts dating in Rocky Balboa.

• 1:13:46Chris Ryan?

  Are you serious?

• 1:13:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. That's like how they reconnect.

• 1:13:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I don't think I've seen Rocky Balboa or I can't remember it.

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  Wait, wait, wait. Rocky Balboa was the one.

• 1:13:56Bill Simmons?

  That's the one with Antonio Tarver.

• 1:13:57Speaker 02

  With Antonio Tarver.

• 1:13:58Bill Simmons?

  It's not a very good movie.

• 1:13:59Chris Ryan?

  And Adrian's dead by this point?

• 1:14:00Bill Simmons?

  Adrian's dead, and he starts hanging out with grown-up Marie.

• 1:14:03Chris Ryan?

  Marie the little whore from the atomic hoagie shop.

• 1:14:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Yes. Take it back. Do, do, do, do. Um, any other what's age the worst?

• 1:14:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, just, just Paulie as the brother.

• 1:14:13Speaker 02

  You just blew my fucking mind with that. Um, oh, white doo-wop groups. Yeah, it was a tough one.

• 1:14:20Bill Simmons?

  Ruffalo Hannah Rubinek Partridge over acting award. It's good acting, but it's got a good Adrian freaking out on Paulie.

• 1:14:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Uh, you're.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  I cook for you!

• 1:14:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:31Bill Simmons?

  Just like she goes, she goes up a level.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  So that's the thing with her, is she is a fantastic actress, obviously, but when she turns it up to that point, like, when she turns it up in the Carlo scene. The Bafugio. Bafugio you.

• 1:14:47Chris Ryan?

  Oh, she gonna say a little whore!

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  In two.

• 1:14:50Chris Ryan?

  Marie the little whore at the atomic hoagie shop!

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  And two, she's a different character. So like, it's like, pretty solid the whole way through. She never has to like, turn it up. But when she turns it up, sometimes it gets away from her.

• 1:15:02Bill Simmons?

  All right. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award. Did you have one, CR?

• 1:15:08Chris Ryan?

  Uh, by far, the most interesting non-big-three character in this movie, not Rocky, Adrian, or Apollo, is by far, Gattuso. And I don't know how much of a, whether it makes it a better or worse sports movie, but it's a much more interesting movie if Gattuso tries to like, assert his control over Rocky.

• 1:15:26Bill Simmons?

  Tried to get him to fix the fight?

• 1:15:28Chris Ryan?

  And I just think Joe Spinell is awesome in this, obviously also in The Godfather.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:33Chris Ryan?

  And, or Godfather 2. And, uh, it would just be so cool if he was like, everybody's putting money on you going down the third.

• 1:15:41Speaker 02

  He gives him the 500 bucks and you think he wants something.

• 1:15:44Chris Ryan?

  That's where you think he's starting to like, maybe try to get in on him a little bit. And I was like, this would have been so cool. If we had two more Gattuso scenes and two less Paulie scenes.

• 1:15:53Bill Simmons?

  Well, what's interesting about this, the great takes here, the original script, which was much darker, it had Rocky throwing the fight.

• 1:16:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:02Bill Simmons?

  And Mickey was a racist. Those are the two things that they softened.

• 1:16:05Chris Ryan?

  In this movie, he's just racist against Italians.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:16:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:12Chris Ryan?

  He's just irascible. Uh, do you have a hottest take then?

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  I do not.

• 1:16:17Bill Simmons?

  I have one.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  Actually, I, I, the, I mean, the, I've already done this hottest take. I mean, this is the beginning of the greatest love story of our time.

• 1:16:29Bill Simmons?

  Which was?

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  Rocky and Apollo.

• 1:16:31Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, you did that.

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, Rocky, Rocky goes on to.

• 1:16:34Bill Simmons?

  You almost caused a riot in Philadelphia. I have, I'm going old school with a super hot hot take. Cause I feel like we've gotten, we have rational hot takes now. I'm going.

• 1:16:46Chris Ryan?

  We got away from our principles.

• 1:16:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. If this movie didn't exist, Philadelphia would basically be Delaware with more attitude, a nicer art museum, and a couple pro sports.

• 1:16:58Chris Ryan?

  That's fucked up though.

• 1:16:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:00Chris Ryan?

  First of all, Delaware is a state.

• 1:17:01Bill Simmons?

  Hot take.

• 1:17:01Chris Ryan?

  Delaware is an entire state.

• 1:17:03Bill Simmons?

  You mean, that's fine. They're probably about the same size.

• 1:17:06Chris Ryan?

  No, that's not true.

• 1:17:09Chris Ryan?

  But you think that if Rocky didn't exist?

• 1:17:12Bill Simmons?

  I think Rocky really made Philadelphia. That's my hot take.

• 1:17:16Chris Ryan?

  Well, what made Boston?

• 1:17:17Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. When we fucking knocked out the British and created America.

• 1:17:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, fucking racist.

• 1:17:29Bill Simmons?

  Nah, it was it was an attempt to do hottest take, but it is funny how much this movie means to Philadelphia.

• 1:17:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:35Bill Simmons?

  That it be almost became like another sports team.

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  Well, Philadelphia has actual real legendary.

• 1:17:41Chris Ryan?

  1980, they win the fucking NBA championship.

• 1:17:43Bill Simmons?

  I get it.

• 1:17:43Chris Ryan?

  It's not like we were like in the desert.

• 1:17:45Bill Simmons?

  You had the Flyers titles in the in the seventies. I get it.

• 1:17:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like Philly is.

• 1:17:50Bill Simmons?

  But you're just kind of between Washington and New York.

• 1:17:52Chris Ryan?

  The World Series in the eighty three.

• 1:17:55Speaker 02

  Like legitimate boxing legends, like no bullshit, like fucking real.

• 1:17:59Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  The biggest boxing icon. From Philly.

• 1:18:03Chris Ryan?

  Look at Jim from the fucking town over there. It'd be Baltimore if it wasn't for this.

• 1:18:08Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying to bring the hottest take back to where it used to be.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  I'm into it. Yeah.

• 1:18:11Bill Simmons?

  Casting what ifs. You United Artists wanted a well established star.

• 1:18:17Bill Simmons?

  Redford, who I think gets just mentioned for every movie ever. Ryan O'Neal and Burt Reynolds actually makes sense and James Caan makes sense. Like if I'm thinking about Hollywood back then.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Ryan O'Neal is way too good looking.

• 1:18:29Chris Ryan?

  Too waspy.

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, like.

• 1:18:31Bill Simmons?

  I'm just saying, I'm not saying. I'm not saying makes sense in the movie. I'm saying makes sense. I could see the studios being like, here's the list of actors we want in this Rocky movie.

• 1:18:41Chris Ryan?

  I so I was gonna save this for recasting couch. You could even call this a lukewarm take. What is this movie if it's James Caan as Rocky and Harvey Keitel as Paulie?

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:18:52Chris Ryan?

  Or a John Cazale as Paulie? Like if you have.

• 1:18:55Bill Simmons?

  I think James Caan is too much baggage at this point to be Rocky.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  What you mean?

• 1:18:59Bill Simmons?

  Cause we know him from Godfather and a bunch of big movies. I think Rocky being an unknown really helps.

• 1:19:06Speaker 02

  I think.

• 1:19:07Bill Simmons?

  I think it worked out great. Like Burt Reynolds, same thing. He's been in too many things.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, those guys are just too movie starish.

• 1:19:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Bill Simmons?

  I needed somebody that you're almost rooting for him in real life, too, as is in the movie. This was interesting. Ken Norton was targeted for Apollo Creed, pulled out. And they gave it to Carl Weathers. Stallone wanted Harvey Keitel as Paulie. Probably a better movie. Carrie Snodgrass, I don't even know who that is, was chosen to play Adrian and they had a money dispute and they auditioned a bunch of people, including Susan Sarandon and Cher. And Sarandon, they really liked, but they thought she was just too pretty to be Adrian.

• 1:19:43Chris Ryan?

  Oh, Carrie Snodgrass was in Bill Ryder. I remember.

• 1:19:48Bill Simmons?

  This is my favorite, though. They wanted Lee Strasberg for Mickey and he wanted too much money.

• 1:19:53Chris Ryan?

  Is this before two? Godfather two?

• 1:19:56Bill Simmons?

  Right after.

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  Oh, so yeah, because he didn't even want to, he wasn't even trying to act in movies, right?

• 1:20:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. No one knows who gave the order. When I heard it, I wasn't angry.

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  Wasn't angry?

• 1:20:07Bill Simmons?

  I said, this is the business. We've chosen.

• 1:20:10Chris Ryan?

  There's not even a statue of the man.

• 1:20:12Bill Simmons?

  The.

• 1:20:13Chris Ryan?

  Was street named after him.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  The Rosado brothers.

• 1:20:18Bill Simmons?

  And then, uh, yeah, that's.

• 1:20:20Chris Ryan?

  Is in the room.

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:20:22Chris Ryan?

  I know Avapada.

• 1:20:26Bill Simmons?

  I think I know the answer to this, but we're going to do the category anyway, just because it's Van Seer, the Van Lathan of Woodford. Did this movie need more black people?

• 1:20:32Speaker 02

  Zero.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

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• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:21:02Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Wow. Best that guy's coming up. I think we have to take one more break. Best that guy word, Joe Spinell does, I think he's not eligible.

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  Oh, for real?

• 1:21:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's Joe Spinell.

• 1:21:14Chris Ryan?

  I think it's Thayer David.

• 1:21:15Bill Simmons?

  He's a graduated that guy.

• 1:21:16Chris Ryan?

  I think it's Thayer David.

• 1:21:16Bill Simmons?

  Thayer David is, is Jergens, the manager or the promoter.

• 1:21:20Chris Ryan?

  He's in a bunch of cool stuff.

• 1:21:21Bill Simmons?

  I didn't know what his name was.

• 1:21:23Speaker 02

  As soon as I saw Joe Spinell, I was like, he's clearly the one, but I guess, okay.

• 1:21:27Bill Simmons?

  No, he's Joe Spinell. Stan Shaw was another one, but I think he's Stan Shaw, who played Dipper.

• 1:21:34Bill Simmons?

  And then Frank Stallone is Frank Stallone.

• 1:21:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the doo-wop guy. Now, do you think Frank was like, me and my boys have a doo-wop group and we'd love to get just 10 seconds.

• 1:21:43Bill Simmons?

  I think Sly's like, can we get Frank in the movie? See if we can get him like 20 bucks.

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Bill Simmons?

  Dion Waiters is a hop in category. We got Marie the Teenage Delinquent. Tony Burton as Duke.

• 1:21:57Bill Simmons?

  Joe Spinello as Gazza. Stu Nighan and Bill Baldwin, but my pick is Buddy the Driver.

• 1:22:03Chris Ryan?

  You think Burgess is in too much of it?

• 1:22:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's in too much. He's like the number three star in the movie. I think it's Gazza's driver.

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's, he.

• 1:22:11Bill Simmons?

  Hey, Rock, did you get the number of the license plate that hit your face?

• 1:22:14Speaker 02

  He's the definition of the award.

• 1:22:16Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 1:22:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:22:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:18Bill Simmons?

  By the way, we, me and my dad used the license plate joke over and over again. That was like, that's 20, 20 years got out of that one. Recasting Couch, I'm not touching it. You want to touch it?

• 1:22:28Chris Ryan?

  No, I was just saying, like, I think that there is a different version of Polly that's like a little bit more.

• 1:22:34Bill Simmons?

  Likeable?

• 1:22:35Chris Ryan?

  Palatable. Yeah. And that, that, Jockeys Almay felt, feel like he's played the failed brother a few too many times.

• 1:22:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:43Chris Ryan?

  But.

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  He's got a shit ton of charisma. Yeah, he would have definitely been like a more likeable version.

• 1:22:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, like what if he was like a skinny, kind of like, nobody ever paid attention to him guy? Not like a raging alcoholic who tried to put logos on the back of people's robes.

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  That's smart.

• 1:22:57Bill Simmons?

  Half-Assed Internet Research, we, we did some of these already. I like that Duke didn't have a name in the movie.

• 1:23:03Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:04Bill Simmons?

  They didn't name him until Rocky II. The first two Steadicam films were Bound for Glory and Marathon Man, so it was all around the same time. They shot the ice skating date that way because they couldn't afford extras.

• 1:23:18Bill Simmons?

  Burgess had a fake cauliflower ear and a tube stuck up his nostril to make his nose look fucked up. And then, uh, Bert Young did some weird stuff to get in a character, like he covered himself with vermouth on his neck. He wore too many clothes, so he was hot. He wanted to be like uncomfortable and angry during the filming.

• 1:23:36Chris Ryan?

  He takes a slug of whatever he's drinking in the meat locker once. And like his lower lip is all wet.

• 1:23:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Chris Ryan?

  And he's like, ah.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  This is like a disgusting role. Beef character.

• 1:23:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:49Bill Simmons?

  When they did the climactic fight, they didn't choreograph it and then realized they had to and had to basically stop and go back.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  Oh, so they just went in there all vibes?

• 1:23:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they were like, oh, you do this and I'll do this. And then they're like, wait, this is a disaster.

• 1:24:02Chris Ryan?

  Weathers off of like a sparring session anyway. So I think they were probably like, we can just fight.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Something else you like still actually cares a lot about boxing and obviously everyone knows that, but as the movies get on, you can see that. He gets, he becomes like a much more athletic, much better boxer.

• 1:24:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think that there's, you could make the argument that one of the things that's aged the worst is like they leave this conception of Rocky. In this movie and then he gets, I think even more, he gets smarter and more physically talented as he gets older, which.

• 1:24:32Speaker 02

  He's already thirty now.

• 1:24:33Chris Ryan?

  The case for the boxers. Yeah.

• 1:24:36Bill Simmons?

  This was a really good one. The poster, when he goes in and sees the posters like those on my trunks. That was an actual mistake they made and they felt like they had to address it. So they added that scene. So that they would be covered for people to be like, why are the posters like this?

• 1:24:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, script. It's just like him being in the spectrum before the fight is one of my favorite little moments of the movie where he's just like, shit, this is too big for me.

• 1:24:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then the spectrum doesn't become the spectrum for most of the fight because they, there was some sort of union issue in Philly. Imagine that. You think, you think you're better than me, uh, union moment. And they had to film a lot of it in LA.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  It, it feel, if.

• 1:25:12Bill Simmons?

  It doesn't look like the spectrum because you feel it in Rocky two, you're like, oh, this is the spectrum.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  Now.

• 1:25:17Chris Ryan?

  Spectrum is a cool, cool place.

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  Is it because?

• 1:25:20Bill Simmons?

  Even I like the spectrum.

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  Because of the Rocky movies that I have such a seven, not seventies, I wasn't around, but. An eighties and early life connection to the spectrum when I didn't care about Philly.

• 1:25:31Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I think probably also.

• 1:25:32Bill Simmons?

  Zinkoff and Dr. J.

• 1:25:33Chris Ryan?

  And it was Barkley. Yeah.

• 1:25:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:34Bill Simmons?

  Julius Irving.

• 1:25:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. It had a great logo.

• 1:25:39Bill Simmons?

  Cool.

• 1:25:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:40Bill Simmons?

  I also like with the Spectrum and I don't know, cause it was a hockey basketball arena.

• 1:25:44Chris Ryan?

  Don't try to crawl back into Philly's favor.

• 1:25:45Bill Simmons?

  Listen, I'm loyal to the hottest take. We're supposed to throw hot takes around. There was something about the Spectrum, the layout of it, where the fans seemed a little closer.

• 1:25:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the lighting was good and the fan, it just felt like you were very like on top of.

• 1:25:59Bill Simmons?

  They were the first, I felt like seventies arena to move people closer. Cause if you look at some of the stuff, like I noticed this when we were doing the Celtics doc, some of the, even the early seventies, the courtside seats, they're like 30 feet off the court.

• 1:26:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:12Bill Simmons?

  And then the Spectrum was like, let's put everybody close.

• 1:26:14Chris Ryan?

  Kentucky Duke highlights from the Leitner shot game, like people are like so close. Like they're so up on, on the game.

• 1:26:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's cool. Uh, last thing, gonna fly now. How high do you think it got on the billboard hot 100 list?

• 1:26:27Chris Ryan?

  I'm gonna go top 10.

• 1:26:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, seven.

• 1:26:29Bill Simmons?

  How about one?

• 1:26:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:30Bill Simmons?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:26:31Chris Ryan?

  I was gonna say, I don't know if you're gonna do my flex category, but it was gonna be.

• 1:26:35Bill Simmons?

  Yours is coming.

• 1:26:35Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:26:36Bill Simmons?

  Isn't it coming? I think I deleted it.

• 1:26:39Chris Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:26:40Bill Simmons?

  No, do it now.

• 1:26:42Chris Ryan?

  Okay. My okay motherfucker moment when the movie, wait, let me redo that. My okay motherfucker moment when the movie jumps up a notch is when gonna fly now drops like 90 minutes in. Cause you're really like, all right, man, this is kind of sleepy boxing movie, man. What are we gonna, and then it's like, you just, it really, it gets the adrenaline going.

• 1:27:04Bill Simmons?

  He's racing the boat and Sierra's like, you know who they're looking at? They're looking at us.

• 1:27:09Chris Ryan?

  LAPD.

• 1:27:13Bill Simmons?

  Apex Mountain, Stallone. I think we've litigated this 10 other times. I think his apex mountain was that Rocky III Rambo.

• 1:27:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:23Bill Simmons?

  82.

• 1:27:24Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:25Chris Ryan?

  Is this apex mountain for a woman taking her glasses off and getting that much hotter?

• 1:27:30Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:27:31Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:27:34Bill Simmons?

  Ben's going through all his porn searches now.

• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  Oh no, it's easy. I can go one time Lisa. Anyway, um, but wow, is it? It would have to be.

• 1:27:44Chris Ryan?

  I'm trying to think of like.

• 1:27:45Bill Simmons?

  It's a big step up.

• 1:27:46Chris Ryan?

  Other.

• 1:27:46Bill Simmons?

  Also, the glasses are really ugly.

• 1:27:48Speaker 02

  There's like, she's all that and there's a little, but, but, but this one is, would have to be bigger than those, but there's, there's another one.

• 1:27:54Chris Ryan?

  It's not like, I don't actually, when she takes her glasses off, I'm not like, whoa, Adrian's hot, but I'm just, it is a classic kind of like, she takes them off and it's like now all of a sudden.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  What a good question. I'm trying to think, there's one that I'm missing and people are gonna, it's one I'm missing where the guy takes it off and then this woman screams, but I can't remember that. This is probably the most famous though. Probably starts the whole deal.

• 1:28:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, so the glasses are so ugly.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:28:19Bill Simmons?

  They're like out of like nineteen twenty-five.

• 1:28:21Chris Ryan?

  Pharmacy glasses or whatever.

• 1:28:22Bill Simmons?

  Talia Shire. I'm gonna say yes for her too.

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  I have yes for her for sure.

• 1:28:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and she got a couple of projects out of this, but none of them made it.

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  Interesting career.

• 1:28:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:33Speaker 02

  Like all big, doesn't have much of a presence other than, but like every single movie she's in is like, kind of like a hitter.

• 1:28:41Bill Simmons?

  I want to take care of you now, Michael.

• 1:28:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:43Chris Ryan?

  Jason Schwartzman tells this really funny story about like for most of the beginning of his life, people calling his mom Adrian and.

• 1:28:50Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I forgot. That's his mom.

• 1:28:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and like he's just like, why are they calling you Adrian? And she would just be like, yeah, they're confused. They don't understand. And then like he starts to realize like, a hundred people can't be wrong when they're like, hey, Adrian.

• 1:29:02Bill Simmons?

  Yo, yo Adrian.

• 1:29:06Bill Simmons?

  Apex mountain for shy girlfriends, CR?

• 1:29:10Chris Ryan?

  It might be.

• 1:29:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think it is.

• 1:29:12Chris Ryan?

  I was also gonna ask, is this apex mountain for withholding sex while training and or competing in sports? Is it this or Bull Durham?

• 1:29:18Bill Simmons?

  Hmm, Bull Durham. Cause I think he's still having sex.

• 1:29:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Bill Simmons?

  Cause you know what?

• 1:29:23Chris Ryan?

  Well, you think Rock is still having sex?

• 1:29:25Bill Simmons?

  I think he woke up a beast with Adrian. I think there was a lot of time thinking in the fish store. Yeah, Ben knows.

• 1:29:33Speaker 02

  I'm being for real. Like, look.

• 1:29:34Bill Simmons?

  I think there was a, there's a before after.

• 1:29:37Speaker 02

  One time and she's doing the little, she's pecking at him. He can't do it.

• 1:29:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, cause he's like, I, you know, I'm trying to save all my juices, you know?

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  Women weaken, women weaken the legs though is a. Classic, classic line.

• 1:29:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Speaker 02

  Classic.

• 1:29:52Bill Simmons?

  Well, what's the phenomenon behind that? Cause you, you have more testosterone if you haven't shot a load in a while? Is that what we're supposed to think?

• 1:29:59Chris Ryan?

  I don't think sports science was really.

• 1:30:01Bill Simmons?

  Did they ever cover this with John Brankis?

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  Dog, I swear.

• 1:30:04Chris Ryan?

  Maybe they should, should they try this with Embiid? Just like, no, not November, see if your knee swelling goes down.

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  HBO Boxing.

• 1:30:14Speaker 04

  Who is now out for the season, by the way.

• 1:30:16Chris Ryan?

  Lock off.

• 1:30:17Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:30:19Bill Simmons?

  Breaking news on a Friday.

• 1:30:22Chris Ryan?

  I'm sorry, Joe, I was just kidding.

• 1:30:24Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:30:24Chris Ryan?

  Oh, God.

• 1:30:25Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna say, maybe they try that with Anthony Edwards.

• 1:30:31Speaker 02

  Zion.

• 1:30:33Bill Simmons?

  John Avildtson, even though he won the Oscar for this? You can make a case it's Karate Kid.

• 1:30:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:40Bill Simmons?

  Cause then he's got Rocky and Karate Kid. Karate Kid definitely made more.

• 1:30:45Chris Ryan?

  Avildson, you think, what ever happened with, so did Avildson fall out with Stallone? How come he couldn't, they wouldn't?

• 1:30:50Bill Simmons?

  I don't think he was a giant boxing fan. Well, Stallone wanted to direct the second one himself. He wanted to do the written and directed by Sylvester Stallone move. Philadelphia Apex Mountain CR? I'll let you decide.

• 1:31:01Chris Ryan?

  Um. You know, I think the founding of our nation, probably 1776 is a pretty big one.

• 1:31:08Bill Simmons?

  You're solid.

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  For some.

• 1:31:10Chris Ryan?

  And then.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  Not everybody was in.

• 1:31:11Bill Simmons?

  The 83 Sixers title?

• 1:31:13Chris Ryan?

  Beating the Pats in 18s.

• 1:31:17Chris Ryan?

  This is up there, though.

• 1:31:18Bill Simmons?

  Ending, ending the Mahomes dynasty?

• 1:31:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think that this, if you were carving a Mount Rushmore of Philadelphia, they, they put Rocky with his hands in the air on it.

• 1:31:27Speaker 02

  One of the most notable images of Philadelphia.

• 1:31:31Bill Simmons?

  Burt Young.

• 1:31:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. What did Burt Young ever?

• 1:31:35Bill Simmons?

  It's probably Rocky III when, when this character becomes more tolerable, at least somewhat. Best Burt Young, though, is, uh, is Back to School by The Dangerfield.

• 1:31:44Speaker 02

  Ah, yeah, where he plays the driver slash muscle.

• 1:31:46Bill Simmons?

  Amazing, amazing performance.

• 1:31:48Chris Ryan?

  We haven't done Back to School, right?

• 1:31:49Bill Simmons?

  No, it's on the list. Spider Rico. Definitely. Ice skating dates? Was there a better ice skating date?

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  There is an ice skating. Happy Gilmore. That's amazing.

• 1:31:58Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's a good one. You're right.

• 1:32:01Chris Ryan?

  Cutting edge is that the figure skating.

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  Toe pick.

• 1:32:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:06Bill Simmons?

  Rocky movies? No.

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  Boxing movies?

• 1:32:11Bill Simmons?

  Boxing movies was the last one I had.

• 1:32:14Chris Ryan?

  So give me, how are you defining this? Cause a couple of years later, Raging Bull comes out. Like, you know, I think.

• 1:32:21Bill Simmons?

  Maybe it's rewatchable boxing movies.

• 1:32:23Chris Ryan?

  Fine. I think aesthetically, I think I, I think Raging Bull is a better film.

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  Raging Bull is better than this movie, but this movie is like much more, I think culturally significant than Raging Bull.

• 1:32:34Bill Simmons?

  If you're going to a desert island, do you take Raging Bull or Rocky?

• 1:32:36Speaker 02

  You take.

• 1:32:36Chris Ryan?

  And I see, I would take Raging Bull.

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:32:38Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:32:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Raging Bull is a lot more interesting to watch than Rocky is.

• 1:32:42Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  It's a, it. Raging Bull is so funny to me, man. It's just, it's a hilarious movie. It's a, it's like, it's, it's just, why'd you fuck, why'd you fuck him?

• 1:32:56Speaker 02

  Why'd you do, she just said she didn't do it. Why are you asking her why? She just said she didn't do it.

• 1:33:01Chris Ryan?

  I know. I always, Raging Bull follows a little bit of Rocky. I mean, you get Pesci kind of playing the bird young, Moriarty's the Adrian, you know?

• 1:33:08Bill Simmons?

  Cruz or Hanks?

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  Cruz. I went with Cruz.

• 1:33:11Bill Simmons?

  I think it's Cruz.

• 1:33:13Chris Ryan?

  I guess it's Cruz.

• 1:33:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I can't buy Hanks as a heavyweight boxing challenger.

• 1:33:17Chris Ryan?

  You can buy Tom Cruise as a heavyweight boxing challenger?

• 1:33:20Bill Simmons?

  Cause I think he would do like six months of prep for it. He would get, he would, he would gain all the weight and then would lose the weight during the five weeks of filming.

• 1:33:28Chris Ryan?

  I actually, I am gonna say Hanks, but you guys obviously win this democracy.

• 1:33:32Bill Simmons?

  Cruz?

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  I go with Cruz.

• 1:33:33Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Scorsese or Spielberg?

• 1:33:35Chris Ryan?

  Is this the perfect movie if they co-direct it?

• 1:33:40Chris Ryan?

  The inspirational side of Spielberg, the gritty side of Scorsese?

• 1:33:45Speaker 02

  Spill, like Scorsese handles the, all the rocky, Paulie type of, but then the bigger step back.

• 1:33:54Chris Ryan?

  Can you imagine if Spielberg got his hands on like the last fight and like?

• 1:33:58Bill Simmons?

  I think, I think it's Scorsese.

• 1:34:01Speaker 02

  I mean, I have Scorsese, but a co-director situation.

• 1:34:04Chris Ryan?

  He directs Raging Bull a few years later. I mean, the opera entrance into the ring is.

• 1:34:10Bill Simmons?

  This is becoming one of my favorite categories. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

• 1:34:15Chris Ryan?

  Paulie?

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  Paulie. I got Paulie.

• 1:34:17Chris Ryan?

  Or Gattuso's driver?

• 1:34:18Bill Simmons?

  How about Jergens?

• 1:34:19Speaker 02

  Jergens, maybe?

• 1:34:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:34:22Bill Simmons?

  Gattuso's driver? Hey, Rock.

• 1:34:24Chris Ryan?

  Hey, Rock! Take her to the zoo!

• 1:34:30Bill Simmons?

  Picking nets. So Rocky just waltzes into the spectrum one day before the fight to look around? To let him in?

• 1:34:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:39Speaker 02

  He's on the fight. He's on the fight card.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm Rocky Balboa. I'm fighting here tomorrow.

• 1:34:43Bill Simmons?

  Goes all the way down to the spectrum for no, just to go look at the things hanging down? It's a little weird.

• 1:34:49Speaker 02

  No, it's not weird at all. You could go, you could go in there and fuck around with the ring to make sure that the ring is.

• 1:34:54Bill Simmons?

  Nobody's in there. They're not, nobody's setting up anything. It's just completely empty.

• 1:34:57Chris Ryan?

  It's, you know, it's like, yeah.

• 1:35:00Bill Simmons?

  Um, this is my biggest one. Five weeks, plenty of time to prepare to fight the heavyweight champion of the world. I don't feel like 40 guys are turning that fight down. They make it seem like, whoa, not enough time. Nobody's gonna take it. It's like.

• 1:35:11Speaker 02

  Oh, I got the feeling.

• 1:35:12Bill Simmons?

  So many people are taking that.

• 1:35:14Chris Ryan?

  But Apollo picks Rocky for the specific story, right?

• 1:35:17Bill Simmons?

  But he does, he does that only because everybody keeps turning the fight down.

• 1:35:20Chris Ryan?

  Oh, okay. I, I. Oh, he's like, oh, he's in England. It's like, he can get back from England.

• 1:35:24Bill Simmons?

  I just watched McCully take a fight in 10 hours.

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  And that, they actually say that in the movie. They go, this guy that goes, oh, he moved to California, gained 50 pounds. So what? Bring him on and make the fight. I actually got the feeling that no one actually wanted to fight Creed.

• 1:35:37Bill Simmons?

  Possibly.

• 1:35:37Speaker 02

  But, but five weeks is more than enough.

• 1:35:40Bill Simmons?

  For 150 grand in 1976?

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  Andrew Ruiz Jr. took the fight on basically that much.

• 1:35:45Bill Simmons?

  I just think in real boxing, people take it.

• 1:35:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:48Bill Simmons?

  The string trick of putting string around your ankles, keep your balance, that seems like bullshit.

• 1:35:53Chris Ryan?

  Is that Mick's primary contribution aside from the cut man? Like, what is, what else does Mick teach him?

• 1:36:00Speaker 02

  This is something that I thought.

• 1:36:01Chris Ryan?

  He gives him a string around his feet.

• 1:36:04Bill Simmons?

  I, I'm willing to have the convo.

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  Apollo is a much better trainer than Mickey is.

• 1:36:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:10Speaker 02

  Apollo is way better. Apollo actually transforms Rocky. He changes Rocky. He, Apollo is a much better trainer than Mickey is.

• 1:36:22Bill Simmons?

  Woman, we can legs. We learned that. Go to the body. You need better balance.

• 1:36:28Chris Ryan?

  That's three things.

• 1:36:29Bill Simmons?

  Stop smoking.

• 1:36:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:36:32Bill Simmons?

  Rocks in a much better spot five weeks later than he was.

• 1:36:34Chris Ryan?

  I got a guy who's gonna open up your eyeball in the.

• 1:36:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, got a great cut guy with a razor blade.

• 1:36:42Bill Simmons?

  Any other nitpicks for you guys?

• 1:36:44Chris Ryan?

  There's that scene where Van talked about being quite moved by Rocky, you know, doing the where were you 10 years ago scene with Mick? And the blocking of that scene is kind of weird, but it's like, you know, the doors are closing and opening and mixed all the way down that hallway. And then almost outside and he still is hearing this speech that Rocky is giving for the most part at like regular speaking voice. I can't hear my wife in the other room if the water is on. So there's no fucking way that Mick can hear this monologue.

• 1:37:11Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:37:11Chris Ryan?

  Halfway down the stairs. Yeah. Yeah. He's been punched in the head 7,000 times in his life.

• 1:37:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:16Chris Ryan?

  There's no way. You're like, what?

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  My nitpick is somebody would have gotten to Adrian before this. There's just no way.

• 1:37:25Chris Ryan?

  Oh.

• 1:37:26Speaker 02

  In the neighborhood, someone would have gotten to her before.

• 1:37:29Bill Simmons?

  Fish store customer?

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  Fish store customer.

• 1:37:31Bill Simmons?

  Coming in, coming in to buy some piranha?

• 1:37:33Speaker 02

  Somebody coming in here to buy the dog or something like that. Somebody would have gotten to her before this.

• 1:37:37Bill Simmons?

  There's a question. So there Rocky and Paul are best friends and Rocky's like 29, 30?

• 1:37:42Speaker 02

  30, yeah.

• 1:37:44Bill Simmons?

  The first time it occurred to him to make a run at the fish store girl?

• 1:37:47Chris Ryan?

  Well, I think in the movie, it seems like he's been going in a lot and making his like, I make a joke in the morning and a joke in the afternoon. Right?

• 1:37:54Bill Simmons?

  And unfortunately she can't communicate.

• 1:37:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, until she takes her glasses off and she's just like, let's smash.

• 1:38:04Bill Simmons?

  I mean.

• 1:38:05Speaker 02

  She gets it.

• 1:38:06Bill Simmons?

  She really enjoyed it.

• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  She changes. She starts dressing different. The dick starts making her dress different. She starts, I'm telling you, she totally changes her style.

• 1:38:16Chris Ryan?

  Money that he hasn't made yet.

• 1:38:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:38:17Chris Ryan?

  She's like, I got a red coat. You better get that ring.

• 1:38:20Bill Simmons?

  That would have been a better, hottest take for me. Here's why virginity is overrated.

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:38:29Bill Simmons?

  Sequel, prequel, Prestige TV, All Black, Castor, Untouchable, uh, they've done

• 1:38:34Speaker 02

  They did them all.

• 1:38:34Bill Simmons?

  Pretty much all of those versions.

• 1:38:36Chris Ryan?

  They haven't done a TV adaptation of this universe yet.

• 1:38:38Speaker 02

  Oh, you know what? They were going to, right? Wasn't there a television show of some sort coming with the Creed, in the Creed universe? No, am I making this up?

• 1:38:47Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean, I think, cause this was bought by Amazon in the MGM purchase.

• 1:38:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:53Chris Ryan?

  And I think that they were going to do like the usual make it a universe kind of thing.

• 1:38:58Bill Simmons?

  Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Barney Cousins, Tony Romo, Harley Mays, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Long Legs, Wilford Brimley in The Firm? And I want to kind of add Gotso's driver to this going forward.

• 1:39:16Bill Simmons?

  Take her to the zoo.

• 1:39:17Chris Ryan?

  The movie is better with Gotso's driver. I was gonna say, uh, oh Mike, CEO just have to take Adrienne to the zoo? She likes the ice rink too!

• 1:39:32Bill Simmons?

  I miss Collinsworth.

• 1:39:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:33Bill Simmons?

  Didn't like too much for him.

• 1:39:36Bill Simmons?

  Tony Romo. She's gotta hop in her step, Jim.

• 1:39:40Bill Simmons?

  She loves having sex, Jim. She's a different lady. She's talking now.

• 1:39:44Chris Ryan?

  This is the lady who loves exotic fish and sex with Rocky Balboa, Jim?

• 1:39:47Bill Simmons?

  It's a sexual awakening, Jim.

• 1:39:52Chris Ryan?

  It's making her feel things she's never felt before, Jim.

• 1:39:57Bill Simmons?

  Just would ask her, who gets it?

• 1:40:00Chris Ryan?

  I got Stallone for screenplay.

• 1:40:03Bill Simmons?

  Okay. I think that's fair.

• 1:40:06Chris Ryan?

  And this year, you know?

• 1:40:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Probably an answerable questions. Do women weaken legs, Van? Did we get a decision?

• 1:40:13Speaker 02

  I was about to say HBO did a whole thing. It was called Sex and the Sweet Science.

• 1:40:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:18Speaker 02

  Where they did like HBO Boxing did it back in the day. It might have been Showtime Boxing.

• 1:40:21Bill Simmons?

  Was this like set in Vegas in The Bunny Ranch or whatever that show was? Did they merge the two shows?

• 1:40:26Speaker 02

  Right now. That was, it was called Cat House. Um, but they, they, they, they talked about it and they got science guys together and there's no scientific proof to it. Women do not, in fact, weaken legs.

• 1:40:40Bill Simmons?

  What were the odds on FanDuel heading into this fight?

• 1:40:44Chris Ryan?

  No, man.

• 1:40:45Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it would go higher than minus 2,000, but I think Creed is minus 2,000.

• 1:40:50Speaker 02

  So what were the Tyson Buster Douglas odds? Is this like 40 to 1?

• 1:40:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was like 30 to 1. That was the last time they were that high. So maybe 30 to 1 here. The over/under for rounds? I think it's 2 and 1/2.

• 1:41:02Speaker 02

  2 and 1/2, yeah, for sure.

• 1:41:04Bill Simmons?

  And people are banging the under.

• 1:41:05Chris Ryan?

  Now, what happens? This is where Goto gets involved.

• 1:41:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:08Chris Ryan?

  This is where Goto's gonna be like, "Look, you got there, you can acquit yourself decently, the last 2 rounds and you gotta go down."

• 1:41:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:14Speaker 02

  What happens to the live odds? Once Apollo goes down in the first round?

• 1:41:18Bill Simmons?

  I think after the second round, it's just hard. It's like Apollo's now like minus 400.

• 1:41:23Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:41:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's like a lot of Rocky money. Um, what piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie?

• 1:41:30Chris Ryan?

  I gotta tell you, not a lot. There's not a lot of showering going on in this movie. So I don't really know what I would walk away with. I guess...

• 1:41:37Bill Simmons?

  The gloves would be cool from the fight.

• 1:41:39Speaker 02

  The gloves, yeah. Or Rocky's gloves, his little...

• 1:41:42Bill Simmons?

  Oh, his little training gloves?

• 1:41:43Chris Ryan?

  The one where he's fucking bleeding all over them from punching the knee?

• 1:41:46Bill Simmons?

  I really like the Italian Stallion gray sweatshirt he wears for 3 months straight, but I can't imagine. It smells awesome.

• 1:41:52Chris Ryan?

  You have to fucking fumigate it, yeah.

• 1:41:54Bill Simmons?

  I was looking at some of the Mickey, like the training camp, like, pullovers they have and stuff like that. But, yeah.

• 1:42:02Chris Ryan?

  I think some of the posters outside of the gym would be cool.

• 1:42:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's a poster in Jergens's office that I really liked.

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  Maybe the photo of Mickey when he was a younger fighter. That's all messed up. That's pretty cool.

• 1:42:13Chris Ryan?

  It would be cool if you started having, like, every day me and Sean and Mal and Van had to put our shit in lockers and then every once in a while we'd come in.

• 1:42:20Bill Simmons?

  It's on Skid Row.

• 1:42:21Chris Ryan?

  Put our shit on Skid Row.

• 1:42:23Bill Simmons?

  Like last week's podcast.

• 1:42:28Bill Simmons?

  Adrian's Joy of Sex book? Maybe that could be it.

• 1:42:31Speaker 02

  Adrian's Kama Sutra?

• 1:42:32Bill Simmons?

  She's like, "Chapter 5."

• 1:42:34Chris Ryan?

  Adrian's like, "How about some tantric?"

• 1:42:36Speaker 02

  Adrian, weaken the legs.

• 1:42:38Bill Simmons?

  Rock live this way.

• 1:42:48Bill Simmons?

  The Coach Fittstock Award for Best Life Lesson. Don't let anyone tell you you're a bum.

• 1:42:52Chris Ryan?

  Be a thinker, not a stinker.

• 1:42:54Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:42:55Speaker 02

  Mine was you'd be happier if you were just dumber. Rock is a dumb, happy character.

• 1:43:01Chris Ryan?

  Have you given up calling Ryan? Is it very bad?

• 1:43:05Bill Simmons?

  We went 0 for 5. It's like, it's just, he doesn't answer. He's a, lets it ring and then calls back 10 minutes later guy.

• 1:43:11Speaker 02

  It's fucking.

• 1:43:14Bill Simmons?

  He's a, he's a full-time screener, even with people he knows.

• 1:43:16Speaker 02

  It's unbelievable.

• 1:43:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  Like, you call Resillo and he.

• 1:43:20Chris Ryan?

  We could give him a heads up. We could text him and be like, hey, in about an hour, I'm gonna call.

• 1:43:23Bill Simmons?

  That wasn't the idea.

• 1:43:24Speaker 02

  And he'll, it's always like, he's always.

• 1:43:26Chris Ryan?

  I would like to know what he thinks of this, though.

• 1:43:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:30Bill Simmons?

  Best double feature choice. Would you go Rocky 2 or something else?

• 1:43:34Chris Ryan?

  I'd go Raging Bull.

• 1:43:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:43:37Speaker 02

  I went Saturday Night Fever.

• 1:43:39Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I like it.

• 1:43:39Speaker 02

  This, this movie made me wanna watch Saturday Night Fever for some reason.

• 1:43:45Chris Ryan?

  What about you?

• 1:43:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, what's yours?

• 1:43:46Bill Simmons?

  Rocky 2.

• 1:43:47Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:43:47Bill Simmons?

  I think you have to go right from here into the second one. And then just make sure you skip over about 40 minutes when he drinks those in a coma. So does the audience. When we do Rocky 2 rewatchables, it's gonna be about 50 minutes.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  It's my least favorite one.

• 1:44:01Bill Simmons?

  But the last 25 minutes are great.

• 1:44:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:03Chris Ryan?

  When do you stop counting Rocky movies? Four?

• 1:44:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know what? I like Rocky 5.

• 1:44:09Bill Simmons?

  Siobhan likes 5.

• 1:44:11Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Rocky 5 is the one with Tommy Morrison?

• 1:44:14Speaker 02

  Tommy Morrison. I like Rocky 5.

• 1:44:16Chris Ryan?

  It was 5 and then Balboa?

• 1:44:18Bill Simmons?

  I despise 5, but I will admit that the last like 30 minutes of 5 is pretty good.

• 1:44:23Chris Ryan?

  I gotta go see Rocky Balboa to see if Marie's in this fucking thing.

• 1:44:26Bill Simmons?

  That's the whole, it's a huge part of the movie.

• 1:44:28Speaker 02

  I've seen the movie before. I must have, I, I don't think that I connected that this, that was the character from the first movie.

• 1:44:34Bill Simmons?

  So who won the movie? Obviously, Si's alone. Here's my question. Have we ever had somebody win a movie harder than this? I feel like this might be the number one who won the movie ever.

• 1:44:45Chris Ryan?

  That's

• 1:44:46Bill Simmons?

  We would've said Tarantino, but I, but Stallone, like, as a writer and a star, and then

• 1:44:51Chris Ryan?

  Nah, you're probably right.

• 1:44:52Bill Simmons?

  It has to be Stallone, right?

• 1:44:53Speaker 02

  You're probably right.

• 1:44:54Chris Ryan?

  In fact, I can't, I would say, oh, we could rename it The Stallone Who Won the Movie Award, but like, no one's ever really done this.

• 1:45:00Bill Simmons?

  We've only seen, at least since I started following movies, which is right around when this movie came out, there's only been a couple of rags to riches stories like this with stars.

• 1:45:08Chris Ryan?

  There's also not that even many times where like, people have successfully like, I'm, I mean, like, Star is Born, like, where people are like, I'm directing this shit, or I'm writing it, and I'm starring in it, and like, I'm gonna learn to do something, like, sing or box.

• 1:45:21Speaker 02

  That's the problem, they're not gonna let you do this very often.

• 1:45:24Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:45:24Speaker 02

  You're gonna have to have such a serendipitous set of circumstances for them to let you write it, star in it, when you're not bankable

• 1:45:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:32Speaker 02

  at all.

• 1:45:33Bill Simmons?

  Tarantino is one, but he, he had True Romance before, so he at least had a foot in the door.

• 1:45:38Chris Ryan?

  Chaz Palminteri kinda did it.

• 1:45:39Speaker 02

  Tarantino was one for what? You're talking about for Pope?

• 1:45:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, for Pope.

• 1:45:42Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, he had Reservoir Dogs, too.

• 1:45:43Bill Simmons?

  That's what I mean.

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he had Lawrence with him and all of that.

• 1:45:47Bill Simmons?

  He, he had a foot in the door. Julia Roberts is another one, but she had Steel Magnolias, and she was in Meet the Pizza. She was around, and I knew who it was. This was just for somebody to come out of nowhere and immediately become an A-plus list star?

• 1:46:01Speaker 02

  I'm really racking, uh, I'm, I'm trying to think. I can't, I, I legitimately can't.

• 1:46:06Bill Simmons?

  You go Pacino in The Godfather, maybe, but he'd even done Panic in the

• 1:46:08Chris Ryan?

  No, but this is like, Pacino was already in Panic in the Park and stuff, like, he was a big deal.

• 1:46:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I can't, certainly not in the last thirty years.

• 1:46:16Chris Ryan?

  It's nowhere near the accomplishment. And even he, I was gonna say Orson Welles, doing like Citizen Kane, but he's, he was already considered a boy genius, like, coming out of like, radio plays, and like, his theater company, like, he'd already done, uh, War of the Worlds on radio.

• 1:46:31Bill Simmons?

  Did you say Charles Holmes on Midnight Boys?

• 1:46:34Speaker 02

  That's a big one. Hey, man, respect. Respect the pew pew.

• 1:46:38Chris Ryan?

  It's pew pew.

• 1:46:39Speaker 02

  We gonna start fucking over your shit, watch.

• 1:46:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:41Speaker 02

  Like, like, when, like, we, we start fucking over your shit, that's when you're gonna take it seriously.

• 1:46:45Bill Simmons?

  Where did the pew pew come from?

• 1:46:46Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:46:47Chris Ryan?

  Laser guns.

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  I was like, yeah, we're the mid, cause we're the Midnight Boys, we're like, gunslingers. We're instant reaction, so we just shoot from the hip, pew pew.

• 1:46:56Bill Simmons?

  Maybe we'll do beep beep for us, here.

• 1:46:57Chris Ryan?

  Okay, for the rewatchables?

• 1:46:58Speaker 02

  Rewatch was bad.

• 1:46:59Bill Simmons?

  Can we see our beep beep?

• 1:47:05Bill Simmons?

  Alright, that's it. So now we've done three Rockies.

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:09Bill Simmons?

  The only one, and we've done Creed. So we've actually, I guess, done four Rockies.

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  Creed, three, four, and one.

• 1:47:15Bill Simmons?

  Cause people always ask why we didn't do Rocky yet, even though we'd done three and four. And I actually think that we handled it perfectly. Three, four, one is the prequel. And kinda end with two, which is the least rewatchable of the four.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  Did you see Creed three?

• 1:47:30Bill Simmons?

  I did.

• 1:47:30Speaker 02

  Thoughts?

• 1:47:32Bill Simmons?

  I thought Majors was really good.

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  He's really good in everything.

• 1:47:35Bill Simmons?

  He was really good. And I, I think I liked it more than I liked Creed two.

• 1:47:41Speaker 02

  I can't even remember Creed two. Creed two was with the Russian. Yeah, I don't even remember.

• 1:47:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's longer than Kid, right?

• 1:47:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:50Bill Simmons?

  You know, I think it's time for the franchise. Now that we're at 50 years.

• 1:47:53Chris Ryan?

  Well, we need, if you want to do something with-

• 1:47:56Bill Simmons?

  CR, you're not, cause you're not 50.

• 1:47:58Chris Ryan?

  Nope.

• 1:47:59Bill Simmons?

  So this franchise is older than you are.

• 1:48:01Chris Ryan?

  Two, two years before I was born.

• 1:48:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:03Chris Ryan?

  But, or they shot it two years before I was born. I was gonna say that what they need to do is get back to what makes this story so meaningful is that it's a guy out of nowhere. And you can't do that if it's like, it's a Paul Creed's son.

• 1:48:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:14Bill Simmons?

  I mean, there is a move left. That, the, the Shields movie, which I really liked. But there's a female Rocky angle that they could do. If they wanted to flip it.

• 1:48:27Bill Simmons?

  Basically do all the same stuff and have it be, and have Paulie be the sister and but yeah, but nobody wants that. Like just come up with your own movie.

• 1:48:36Speaker 02

  We're probably too cynical for Rocky now. We've seen, we, we want to me, like, looking at it like this, you're just gonna ask so many questions. Like, why didn't he fight amateurs? Like, what, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like a guy with 21 losses.

• 1:48:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:51Speaker 02

  Becoming like, it's just-

• 1:48:52Chris Ryan?

  Could you do a Rocky that was basically UFC? I guess that's Warrior.

• 1:48:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, but even with Creed-

• 1:48:57Bill Simmons?

  I mean, you could. UFC's sitting there. And it's weird, there just hasn't been enough UFC movie content at a high level. Warrior is by far the best one. But, yeah, I guess you could do Rocky UFC. But-

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, I guess you could like, I don't know if the UFC.

• 1:49:13Bill Simmons?

  Or you make this more of an erotic thriller with Adrian's, it's filtered on Adrian's awakening.

• 1:49:18Speaker 02

  That's the movie.

• 1:49:18Bill Simmons?

  That's it.

• 1:49:19Chris Ryan?

  Is that what you would call it?

• 1:49:20Speaker 02

  Adrian's Awakening.

• 1:49:21Bill Simmons?

  It's Awakening. A new way to look at the Rocky series.

• 1:49:24Speaker 02

  I got it. A different movie where, what's the mafia guy named Gatto?

• 1:49:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:29Speaker 02

  Where he actually hires Adrian.

• 1:49:32Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  To weaken Rocky's legs.

• 1:49:34Bill Simmons?

  Oh, so that it.

• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  So, so, so, like, they're trying to have, or maybe not him, maybe Apollo hires Adrian. Her awakening is because Rocky needs his legs weakened in the movie. That's the second one.

• 1:49:46Bill Simmons?

  There's a brief twinkle in her eye when Clubber Lang is calling her out in Rocky III.

• 1:49:50Speaker 02

  Oh, she liked it.

• 1:49:51Bill Simmons?

  You could see for one second, she's like, oh.

• 1:49:54Speaker 02

  She's like, maybe I'm a dark shark.

• 1:49:55Bill Simmons?

  Clubber.

• 1:49:56Speaker 02

  She's like, she, she, she's like, she, like, she laughs.

• 1:50:01Bill Simmons?

  Clubber noticed that.

• 1:50:02Chris Ryan?

  I thought it was one guy saying, do what?

• 1:50:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I've been waiting for Clubber to look my way.

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, she liked it.

• 1:50:08Bill Simmons?

  Rocky, so your rankings are still three, four, one, two? Or three, one, four, two?

• 1:50:14Chris Ryan?

  Three, one.

• 1:50:15Bill Simmons?

  Three, one, four, two for you?

• 1:50:16Chris Ryan?

  Three, one. Four, two.

• 1:50:20Bill Simmons?

  What do you have, Van?

• 1:50:22Speaker 02

  I go three. Four. One. Five, two.

• 1:50:29Bill Simmons?

  Five over two?

• 1:50:30Chris Ryan?

  You hate two that much.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  I don't like two. I don't like two. Two is my least, two is my least watched Rocky movie.

• 1:50:37Bill Simmons?

  But it's a really fun coming in thirty minutes.

• 1:50:40Chris Ryan?

  We gotta rush in and do this. Like, we gotta make it. This movie starts the second the first one ends.

• 1:50:44Speaker 02

  To me, it's the least. Original of the Rocky movies. Even five is original because Rocky is now falling off of his perch.

• 1:50:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:52Speaker 02

  Four is original Cold War stuff. Three is the Rocky, the leap of the Rocky franchise. Two is like a continuation of one, and one is just superior.

• 1:51:02Bill Simmons?

  I saw Rocky II in the theater with my best friend. Crowd standing.

• 1:51:06Chris Ryan?

  Non-whites?

• 1:51:07Bill Simmons?

  Fight scene.

• 1:51:08Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:51:08Bill Simmons?

  Like, that's the only time I've ever seen the movie theater.

• 1:51:10Chris Ryan?

  Some non-whites.

• 1:51:11Bill Simmons?

  People going fucking crazy.

• 1:51:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:13Bill Simmons?

  Like, it was like they were at like a fucking Patriots game. It was nuts.

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  In Boston, they probably run out and harass some kids.

• 1:51:20Bill Simmons?

  Jesus, come on.

• 1:51:21Speaker 02

  They probably, they probably run, "Ay, salty motherfucker! We show you Mulian, salty."

• 1:51:28Bill Simmons?

  I knew I shouldn't have brought up that story. Well, we won't invite you on the Rocky two pod.

• 1:51:32Chris Ryan?

  Shout out to Deadham.

• 1:51:33Bill Simmons?

  But when we do Adrian's Awakening, you're there.

• 1:51:35Speaker 02

  I'm there, of course.

• 1:51:36Bill Simmons?

  Fancy our great Steve. Thanks to Jack Sanders as well. Shout out to Craig Horlbeck, who wasn't there this time around for us, but we got the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. So you can check us out there. See you next week.

• 1:51:56Speaker 02

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