London TV Watching, 'The Day of the Jackal,' and 'Disclaimer'

Chris and Andy talk about some of the TV they've been consuming while in London, including Jamie Oliver's cooking show (1:00). Then they discuss the new 'Day of the Jackal' series, a remake of the 1973 film, and why it ends up just feeling like filler for Peacock (9:53). Finally, they talk about the most recent few episodes of 'Disclaimer' and why the show ultimately did not work, even though it has the star power of Alfonso Cuarón and Cate Blanchett behind it (33:11). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What's happening? It's Todd McShay and I'm back with a new home and a new show at The Ringer and Spotify. The McShay Show. It's a video and audio podcast coming to you year round with all my NFL draft information, big boards, mock drafts and player movement. Plus, I'll be chatting with some of my best friends in football, including some of your favorite football analysts. During the week, we'll have episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays that'll include discussions about my player rankings, who's rising, who's falling, and who your NFL team should be keeping an eye on. Plus, we'll be reacting each week to the college football playoff polls and giving you previews and picks for each Saturday slate. In addition, I'll have episodes on Saturday nights with my immediate reaction to the full

• 0:44Speaker 00

  day in college football every week. So if you love the college game, the NFL, the draft, or all of it like me, make sure to like, follow, subscribe, and get ready for The McShay Show on The Ringer, Spotify, and wherever you watch or listen to podcasts.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. You know what I love about football season? It's the football, but also the football watching food. And nothing hits like a Boar's Head sandwich when I'm watching a game. Really, any game day sandwich better with Boar's Head. Philly cheesesteak, layer up buttery slider rolls with Boar's Head London Broil Roast Beef, American White Cheese, and picante provolone. Delicious. Then add roasted onions, peppers, and Boar's Head pub-style horseradish sauce. I love horseradish. And you've got the ultimate game day cheesesteak. They've also got a whole lineup of premium meats, cheeses, hummus, and dips, condiments, and more to serve up on game day. Head to your local Boar's Head deli counter to shop now for game day sandwich inspiration and more. Visit boar'shead.com. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 2:22Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com and joining me in the studio back under the blanket of imperial rule.

• 2:34Andy Greenwald?

  It's very safe.

• 2:35Chris Ryan?

  Oh, it is Andy Greenwald. What's up, man?

• 2:37Andy Greenwald?

  Hey, so I feel like-

• 2:38Chris Ryan?

  We were recording this on Wednesday, by the way, the 6th.

• 2:41Andy Greenwald?

  Early Wednesday. Um, last week-

• 2:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44Andy Greenwald?

  When we were talking about how we would be seeing each other here in London.

• 2:48Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:49Andy Greenwald?

  I welcomed and invited speculation as to what you were doing. And I think it's time to confirm that you and I are special envoys here to apologize for the Revolutionary War.

• 3:00Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:01Andy Greenwald?

  And to just be like-

• 3:02Chris Ryan?

  Let us back-

• 3:03Andy Greenwald?

  Let us back in!

• 3:04Chris Ryan?

  Greenwald, it is great to see you. I wish it was under slightly more like lighter circumstances.

• 3:11Andy Greenwald?

  We did this podcast eight years ago.

• 3:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. Some people might want a distraction, so we are gonna talk a little bit about two shows. One, which is out, which is disclaimer. The penultimate episode aired last week, I believe.

• 3:24Andy Greenwald?

  I think the finale comes out Friday.

• 3:26Chris Ryan?

  The finale comes out on Friday. No spoilers for that. We haven't seen it. We're not gonna be talking about that. Just maybe just a little table set and expectations.

• 3:33Andy Greenwald?

  Oh!

• 3:34Chris Ryan?

  What we think Fonz is gonna do there.

• 3:35Andy Greenwald?

  Do you have an odds? Like, do you have the FanDuel odds?

• 3:38Chris Ryan?

  Uh, no. And then we're gonna talk a little bit about Day of the Jackal, because we're gonna take Monday's show off, Veterans Day. We're both gonna be traveling, so no show then. Just as far as admin goes, on Thursday the 14th, I believe it is, we'll have a show about Say Nothing featuring the Say Nothing author, Patrick Raddenkeef. That's an excellent show. I talked a little bit about that with Joe, just about our enthusiasm for it, but really looking forward to that. So, show today, show next Thursday, then back to regularly scheduled programming.

• 4:12Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe.

• 4:12Chris Ryan?

  I think.

• 4:13Andy Greenwald?

  I, you missed one thing from the rundown. I thought it would be time, eight years later, to just really revisit my claim that the Tribe Called Quest reunion album was the first great piece of Trump-era art.

• 4:24Chris Ryan?

  Did you do that?

• 4:25Andy Greenwald?

  I don't really wanna dig up 2016 podcasts, but I believe I was like, what's really compelling about, like, I did. I'm pretty sure I did.

• 4:33Chris Ryan?

  I actually have like no, uh- I I I've been up since three in the morning because I'm a little bit I'm obviously jet lagged, but I also looked at my phone at one point in the middle of the night. So it was tough. So I don't have any like wisdom and I also don't have any like, what does this mean for culture? Because like you said, we did that eight years ago. And also, more than half of the country voted for this guy. So

• 4:58Andy Greenwald?

  You get what you want.

• 4:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:59Andy Greenwald?

  I I genuinely feel, well, I feel two things. One, I was pretty

• 5:04Chris Ryan?

  You've always loved lioness.

• 5:06Andy Greenwald?

  Suddenly that show's worldview seems very compelling to me. Um, I was fairly glib about how it would go for me, uh, falling to sleep all cozy in an ignorant world, but then maybe peeking at my phone, based on my experience, uh, when the Philadelphia Eagles played the Green Bay Packers at the start of the season and how I, ooh, I peeked. And there was like 70 texts from you and Zach and like saw that they were like within a touchdown. And I was like, okay, seems exciting, but face mask back on, future style.

• 5:37Andy Greenwald?

  It's actually not a sleep mask. It's actually a scream mask.

• 5:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Andy Greenwald?

  It's the Fidelio mask, Remise Wide Shut. Everyone loves it.

• 5:44Chris Ryan?

  It just keeps getting, you just keep going deeper with it.

• 5:46Andy Greenwald?

  And, um, so I learned, uh, that was a mistake.

• 5:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:50Andy Greenwald?

  And the other thing that I really recommend everyone does, other than be close to the people near you that you love and take care of them, because that's all we can really do is quit Twitter.

• 5:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:00Andy Greenwald?

  I fucking did it today. It feels good.

• 6:01Chris Ryan?

  Did you like shut it down?

• 6:03Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, no, I still want my menschies.

• 6:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's right. You got notifications on, don't you? You've been doing this for as long as I've known you.

• 6:10Andy Greenwald?

  I deleted it from, look, look, look, look, look, I'm

• 6:12Chris Ryan?

  I don't need to see your phone. I believe you.

• 6:14Andy Greenwald?

  No, this is like, uh, you're my sponsor. It's not on my phone anymore.

• 6:17Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 6:18Andy Greenwald?

  That is TikTok there, though. I just added that. Seems like time to pivot.

• 6:22Chris Ryan?

  Seems good. Did you, since you've been over here, like, have you, uh, what have you been watching?

• 6:30Andy Greenwald?

  I I am

• 6:31Chris Ryan?

  I'm just, just, we're just spinning our wheels here a little bit, but I'm just curious.

• 6:34Andy Greenwald?

  You mean like CNN International? Nope. I

• 6:39Andy Greenwald?

  I feel like I've already said this over the last few weeks, but Chris, I've really, really just been watching Detroiters.

• 6:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:45Andy Greenwald?

  And can we just do a postscript to our last conversation? When you seem bullish, more bullish than I was, on the existence of Netflix moments. Not bullish enough to update your app so you had it, but you were like, moments curious.

• 6:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I don't think, I still don't think Ted's put this on my.

• 7:00Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, see, now he's looking at his phone, by the way.

• 7:02Chris Ryan?

  Go ahead.

• 7:02Andy Greenwald?

  And so I, in order to celebrate this and to celebrate my just ardor for the 2018 Comedy Central comedy Detroiters.

• 7:12Chris Ryan?

  A Trump-era piece of culture.

• 7:14Andy Greenwald?

  Truly the greatest piece of art from that era, if I remember correctly. A hallmark of hashtag The Resistance. I momented something for you. Are we calling it that? I sent you a moment.

• 7:23Chris Ryan?

  I don't know, I don't know that they've come up with a snappy, like, you tweeted it.

• 7:27Andy Greenwald?

  No, I sent you a mo-.

• 7:28Chris Ryan?

  Grammed it.

• 7:29Andy Greenwald?

  A mo- me.

• 7:30Chris Ryan?

  A mo- me.

• 7:31Andy Greenwald?

  I sent you one when Ned the security guard is explaining how he's pitching a commercial for diapers, an account they don't have, and.

• 7:37Chris Ryan?

  I did watch it.

• 7:38Andy Greenwald?

  And Chris, you were very silent.

• 7:39Chris Ryan?

  I was, I'm frustrated.

• 7:41Andy Greenwald?

  Were you watching the news?

• 7:42Chris Ryan?

  No, I'm just really frustrated that I don't have this technology yet. I do think, though, that now that you're.

• 7:47Andy Greenwald?

  It's so simple to get.

• 7:48Chris Ryan?

  Just roll with this a little bit. We've gone from, you know, we used to do a big deal about the top 10 shows of the year. We still do that, but we're now focused on the episode of the year. That's like our big.

• 7:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, which is, which is, I think, a little bit more spirited debate this year for us than it was last year.

• 8:05Chris Ryan?

  I think it is. What if we got down to mo- me of the year?

• 8:07Andy Greenwald?

  Whoa.

• 8:08Chris Ryan?

  You know, just that one little moment.

• 8:10Andy Greenwald?

  On Netflix, on the Netflix network.

• 8:12Chris Ryan?

  Only Netflix shows. Um, yeah, man, it's a powerful application and it's a powerful piece of technology.

• 8:21Andy Greenwald?

  What did you, so I also think, to set the scene, like, I've been here for a couple of days and you just got in literally last night, so what was your cultural diet?

• 8:28Chris Ryan?

  On the flight over, if everybody's interested, I think some self-deprecation is in order here, right?

• 8:35Andy Greenwald?

  We're just here with our friends.

• 8:36Chris Ryan?

  I was getting real ready for my sleep on the, on the flight.

• 8:42Andy Greenwald?

  To get all snugged up?

• 8:43Chris Ryan?

  And threw on Maxine, the third in the Ty West's trilogy with Mia Goth. And there's a tremendous amount of sex and nudity in that film, so I turned that off after about 15 minutes because I didn't want to offend any.

• 8:54Andy Greenwald?

  Once you had mo- me'd all the sex?

• 8:58Andy Greenwald?

  It's actually just a 15 minute movie.

• 9:00Chris Ryan?

  Um, so then I put on Ghostbusters, which I enjoyed and then

• 9:04Andy Greenwald?

  The original, to be clear.

• 9:04Chris Ryan?

  Yes, the original. And then I watched, uh, uh, most of the second season of 30 Rock.

• 9:10Andy Greenwald?

  That's my new shit. Old shit.

• 9:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:13Andy Greenwald?

  Like that, as, as people know, I have been flying this route quite a bit recently. And I, not intentionally to stymie you, but I did think, I, you know, I think of you a lot. My best friend, but I did think of you when I just sort of defiantly read a book for, I'm not even doing this as a bit. I did not turn on the screen.

• 9:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Andy Greenwald?

  And then, you know, went to sleep and then woke up and I was like, just enough time to maybe do something for the podcast. Or just fucking watch the Apollo, Apollo episode of 30 Rock where Tracy goes to space, but not really. We used to do things in this country.

• 9:48Chris Ryan?

  Like watch stuff for this podcast.

• 9:49Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think one hallmark of the new post-snowflake era that we're entering into? Is that we could once again have sitcoms that end with Dean Winters, Jon Hamm and Jason Sudeikis pretending to be Jamaican nurses? Because didn't really, didn't really flag that back in oh six, oh seven, but seemed a little sus.

• 10:12Chris Ryan?

  I, I watched the, my, my highlight yesterday was watching the Night Court episode.

• 10:17Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I watched that. I watched that two trips ago.

• 10:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Where Tracy reunites the Night Court cast to make up for Kenneth's losing his paged blazer.

• 10:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. It's because they never got to have a finale.

• 10:28Chris Ryan?

  And the B plot is that Jennifer Aniston is in town.

• 10:32Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. And she's Liz's crazy man eating friend.

• 10:34Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And gets Jack in her clutches.

• 10:37Andy Greenwald?

  By the way, this is the soft launch of our new 30 Rock re-watch podcast. I feel like it would be very, very popular. Probably the most.

• 10:46Chris Ryan?

  Rock watch?

• 10:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. I think that would be good for us.

• 10:48Chris Ryan?

  And then every other episode, maybe we just talk about some of our favorite rock.

• 10:51Andy Greenwald?

  What if we called it The Rock and confused people, but also drew them in?

• 10:57Chris Ryan?

  Uh, do you want to talk about, what do you want to talk about first disclaimer? Or shall we tease out Day of the Jackal?

• 11:02Andy Greenwald?

  I want to talk about Day of the Jackal first, just because I'm more interested in your opinion on it.

• 11:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. So this is actually also just my bad. I thought that this show was coming out on the seventh.

• 11:10Andy Greenwald?

  Well, it is here in our new native homeland.

• 11:13Chris Ryan?

  But it's coming out on Peacock on the 14th. So we're not going to do any spoilers for Day of the Jackal beyond discussing its source material and discussing the essential premise of the show.

• 11:23Andy Greenwald?

  Look at, by the way, 30 Rock, teacup. Day of the Jackal. Is this a Peacock pod now?

• 11:28Chris Ryan?

  Isn't 30 Rock, is 30 Rock on Peacock?

• 11:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Chris Ryan?

  Oh, okay. It's on Netflix for it.

• 11:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 11:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:34Andy Greenwald?

  It's a podcock now. No?

• 11:37Chris Ryan?

  Okay, go ahead. So, Day of the Jackal.

• 11:38Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, no, you set this up, because you're, also, you drew this to my attention. I knew it existed, and I am familiar with the film and the sort of...

• 11:45Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 11:46Andy Greenwald?

  What this is, but I didn't realize that A, it was coming so quickly, and B, that you were a fan of the creator of this.

• 11:52Chris Ryan?

  So, beloved 1970s film directed by Fred Zinneman, I believe, you know, starring James Fox? Yeah, James Fox.

• 12:01Andy Greenwald?

  Edward Fox.

• 12:02Chris Ryan?

  Edward Fox.

• 12:02Andy Greenwald?

  Father of?

• 12:03Chris Ryan?

  Edward Fox.

• 12:04Andy Greenwald?

  Father of Freddy, I believe.

• 12:05Chris Ryan?

  Freddy Fox, yeah. And is this granular, verite, procedural, international espionage, international thriller about an attempted assassination on Charles de Gaulle, and the hunt to find this assassin before he can possibly strike again.

• 12:23Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:23Chris Ryan?

  So...

• 12:24Andy Greenwald?

  It's a very good film.

• 12:25Chris Ryan?

  It's an astonishing film. It's also structurally really cool, because the first half of the movie is essentially, follows along right behind the assassin, as he kind of goes through his, building up his identities, laying all the foundations for what he's gonna eventually try to do down at the end of the film.

• 12:44Andy Greenwald?

  And like the methodology of it, and it's a process.

• 12:47Chris Ryan?

  It's a process movie.

• 12:48Andy Greenwald?

  Which, by the way, I think was even more striking and shocking and kind of avant-garde in 1973, five years off of the world being rocked by major assassinations.

• 12:57Chris Ryan?

  Sure. And then, so they, about midway through the film, the POV kind of switches to this Parisian detective, who is the most lauded kind of homicide cop in France. And he is brought on by the security services to hunt down the Jackal, this assassin. And so, he is given free rein over, you know, all of these resources, all of the men, all of the entire investigation. And it's essentially this two-hander, but also... Takes in the entirety of France, all of Paris, and it has all this great on-location cinema shooting and stuff like that. It's one of my, like, most-watched movies because it was my parents love it.

• 13:37Andy Greenwald?

  Really?

• 13:37Chris Ryan?

  Uh, it was remade, rather hysterically, with Bruce Willis,

• 13:41Andy Greenwald?

  I remember.

• 13:42Chris Ryan?

  Richard Gere and infamously Jack Black.

• 13:45Andy Greenwald?

  Is that true? I saw that movie, Jack Black.

• 13:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he's, he is the, uh, the gunsmith in the remake.

• 13:52Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 13:52Chris Ryan?

  And then, it comes to us now, as an international co-pro between Sky and I guess Universal or Sky and NBC Peacock, starring Eddie Redmayne, who is a multi-Oscar winner at this point, I believe?

• 14:06Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 14:07Chris Ryan?

  Multi-time?

• 14:08Andy Greenwald?

  Couldn't be him, just once.

• 14:09Chris Ryan?

  At least won an Oscar. I think he's been nominated multiple times. And is, you know, not my cup of tea generally, but is widely regarded as this incredibly, like, talented actor.

• 14:20Andy Greenwald?

  I find him so perplexing. I realize maybe I've never properly seen him in anything.

• 14:25Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:25Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I'll go on the record, didn't see the Fantastic Beasts films, just bringing that out there for no reason. And, um, his Academy Award is, like, where does Sean rank this in terms of, like, not fraudulent Oscars, but the, like?

• 14:41Chris Ryan?

  It's the Hawking movie, right?

• 14:42Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sorry, what now? Yes.

• 14:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Stephen Hawking movie.

• 14:45Andy Greenwald?

  The Theory of Everything. Okay, go on.

• 14:47Chris Ryan?

  Anyway, Eddie Redmayne plays the Jackal in this series, LaShawna Lynch, who you may remember from, uh, the most recent Bond film.

• 14:53Andy Greenwald?

  She took on the mantle of 007.

• 14:55Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 14:56Andy Greenwald?

  I remember from Captain Marvel, but I think you fell asleep.

• 14:58Chris Ryan?

  Plays an MI6 agent who is an expert in snipers and inserts herself into the investigation into finding the Jackal, much like the Frederick Forsyth novel and the film. It has huge scope. Every other scene is in a different European location, at least that's what the title sequence

• 15:17Andy Greenwald?

  I think they filmed the entire thing in Hungary, but yes.

• 15:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the title card says Cadiz Spain, and then it goes to, you know, like Sevilla. Like, so it's, it's world hopping, uh, it is taut, it has some really incredible action sequences. I feel like it's getting roasted critically, but I, uh, very much find it engaging. Let's, let's talk a little bit generally.

• 15:38Andy Greenwald?

  But this is your top boy guy, right?

• 15:39Chris Ryan?

  And this is Ronan Bennett. So Ronan Bennett, who is the creator and writer of Top Boy, also did this, and it still has one of the strangest credits coming of all time, which is Guy Ritchie's Ray Donovan spinoff, which is now no longer attached to the Doniverse, and is just a

• 15:58Andy Greenwald?

  Ray Doniverse?

• 15:59Chris Ryan?

  UK legal family drama, I think.

• 16:02Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that seems like a win. That seems less like a, that makes it less strange,

• 16:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:06Andy Greenwald?

  I think, as a credit.

• 16:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:08Andy Greenwald?

  Um, are we gonna go to Guy Ritchie's pub while we're here?

• 16:10Chris Ryan?

  Does he, uh, does he have one?

• 16:11Andy Greenwald?

  He does. I heard the, I've heard the food's pretty good.

• 16:13Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I bet. Yeah.

• 16:14Andy Greenwald?

  Right. Uh, sorry, I was gonna go on a tangent about

• 16:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, we don't have to, like, review this

• 16:18Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, no.

• 16:19Chris Ryan?

  because it's not coming out for a week, although the embargo is lifted, so we are free to do so. I was just curious because this is, you know, a, a story that I think can effectively could be told over this seven episodes, I believe it is. I think the first

• 16:34Andy Greenwald?

  It's ten.

• 16:34Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so the first five are going up at once, I believe.

• 16:37Andy Greenwald?

  And the first one is real long.

• 16:41Chris Ryan?

  It's like an hour.

• 16:41Andy Greenwald?

  It's, I, I am increasingly allergic to the full 57-minute television shows.

• 16:47Chris Ryan?

  What do you do when they're like an hour and two or an hour and three?

• 16:50Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I break out in hives. No, I'm, it's not like it gets better at that point.

• 16:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, okay.

• 16:54Andy Greenwald?

  No, I just feel like, okay, go, yes. So the five are going up?

• 16:58Chris Ryan?

  I believe they're putting up a, a, a batch at first, and then they are gonna do once a week after that or something like that.

• 17:06Andy Greenwald?

  I find this show interesting and perplexing in equal measure, because I think that everything you just said is everything that I like and is deeply compelling to me. And honestly, forget the episode length for a second. The bar for entry for me, if you say it's an international espionage or, or manhunt-type film, I will want, or, I'm sorry, series, I will wanna watch that.

• 17:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:30Andy Greenwald?

  That said, this does feel, I can't tell if it's just sort of, I was gonna say hamstrung by these choices, but that doesn't seem fair. There was a moment in this recent television, whatever you want to call it, expression of television where-

• 17:47Chris Ryan?

  This show, you mean?

• 17:47Andy Greenwald?

  No, I don't mean the show. I mean, it's like this post-prestige era-

• 17:50Chris Ryan?

  Oh, this era, yeah.

• 17:51Andy Greenwald?

  Where in service of bulking up streaming, their streaming services, companies were like, "Our number one priority is to find ways to monetize and redevelop things we already own."

• 18:01Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 18:02Andy Greenwald?

  So like, "Open the vaults and see what we got." And Universal had the rights to Day of the Jackal, and I don't know whether they brought it to Ronan Bennett or they were developing it multiple times, but basically, he came up with a show that is roughly analogous, right? It is about a very, very process-driven assassin and an international manhunt by someone who is passionate about the cause.

• 18:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:26Andy Greenwald?

  But there are all these little things that just, I kind of, I kind of bumped on in it. And it, part of it just feels like, when you have a show that has, it opens real strong, has a great set piece, and it has a great Radiohead needle drop. And then the rest of the needle drops feel like someone was like browsing a SkyMall catalog-

• 18:47Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 18:47Andy Greenwald?

  And to make it feel a certain way. And then LaShawna Lynch, you know, first of all, passionate about snipers. That's just her passion. And if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life.

• 18:57Chris Ryan?

  It's funny, there's one, this isn't really giving anything away, but there's one point where her character is like, "Snipers are my patch."

• 19:04Andy Greenwald?

  That's like the first thing she says!

• 19:05Chris Ryan?

  And it's like, she's real territorial about it, and it's, I get it. You know what I mean? Like, I like to think that, you know, "The Sixers are my patch."

• 19:13Andy Greenwald?

  Like, you know, like- No, no, no, you have other patches. Like, if there's an SAS Rogue Squadron or like, World War II-adjacent thing-

• 19:20Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 19:20Andy Greenwald?

  Like, the CR signal goes up. Yeah, it's just like, the kind of like, to get to the show that you want to make, there are just these kind of like, I guess, necessary bumps, like her being, you know, establishing her character by being like, you know, taking apart a gun and being like, "This is a fine weapon, but they're not as smart as I am." And then she like talks herself into a meeting that seems to be being held at the highest possible security clearance. And then her boss explains her presence to her, to his boss by writing on a piece of paper, "Mad about guns," or something?

• 19:51Chris Ryan?

  She's mad for it.

• 19:52Andy Greenwald?

  She's mad for it, and then she has a family thing. I don't know, I found it, I found it sort of in- It was like colliding with itself.

• 20:00Chris Ryan?

  Here's what it's taking. I think that it actually is almost a detriment to experienced day of the jackal in any of its forms before you watch this show because while there are some

• 20:13Chris Ryan?

  sort of gestures towards the original. I think that it's largely like its own thing and it's doing at least a really like a basically like a yeoman's job of making television.

• 20:27Andy Greenwald?

  Because it is.

• 20:28Chris Ryan?

  One thing I will say is that nowhere to be found in the first film and really I think in the book, but I can't quite remember.

• 20:35Andy Greenwald?

  The Frederick Forsyth book, I believe.

• 20:36Chris Ryan?

  Is a ton of family time for.

• 20:40Andy Greenwald?

  Not a lot of downtime.

• 20:41Chris Ryan?

  For either the hunter or the hunted.

• 20:42Andy Greenwald?

  You're articulating what I wanted to say better, so please continue.

• 20:45Chris Ryan?

  And so while I appreciate the fact that we're getting a snapshot of of LaShawna Lynch's character's home life and Eddie Redmayne's character's home life.

• 20:53Andy Greenwald?

  Can you be mad about snipers and also parent your tween age daughter? Sometimes you can't have it all, ladies.

• 20:59Chris Ryan?

  And so I think it's like a little bit of a like you you want to make TV, but then TV takes away from the central tension of like the story. But that might just be because like I've I've got so much experience with the original. I thought there was something. I thought there was something redeeming about this. I don't know why I'm being rosy about it. I think like also.

• 21:18Andy Greenwald?

  I like the first 20 minutes a lot more than the last 37 of the pilot.

• 21:22Chris Ryan?

  Now that you're counting.

• 21:23Andy Greenwald?

  Now that I was counting every second, but go on.

• 21:26Chris Ryan?

  And did you watch just the premiere, right?

• 21:28Andy Greenwald?

  I did.

• 21:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, okay. Now, don't worry, like there's not better Radiohead songs than the second one.

• 21:34Andy Greenwald?

  It's a great one that they use.

• 21:35Chris Ryan?

  Did you? When you see this, do you see? Do you see this grand kind of like this is kind of where we've arrived after this post prestige moment where it's like international co-production, Oscar winning actor.

• 21:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, who is quite compelling, like he has to be very focused and.

• 21:53Chris Ryan?

  Master of disguise.

• 21:54Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, incredible, especially with eyes like that, hard to cover up. I. I actually think, I know it was sort of a throwaway comment, but the comment about the Ray Donoverse, I think is relevant here because it does feel burdened by the tangential connection to a beloved franchise that honestly doesn't have that much juice at the moment. You know what I mean? Like, there's, I don't think there was a lot of clamoring for the Jackalverse outside of the NBC Universal Shineheart board meetings.

• 22:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Andy Greenwald?

  So if you were pitching this and delivering this to me as a LaShawna Lynch, Eddie Redmayne, like, the headline is, like, "Look at these great actors we got," and, "Look at these settings," and it's a pretty compelling espionage, cat and mouse, crime thriller.

• 22:41Chris Ryan?

  Pan-European chase movie show?

• 22:43Andy Greenwald?

  Weirdly, just speaking about it that way, I think I'm a little bit more interested. And it does feel like we are coming out of an era where the cart was before the horse. I mean, do you think there was a Rosemary's Baby prequel series that was on Paramount, like, last month with Julia Garner, who's an actor?

• 23:01Chris Ryan?

  It was just a movie.

• 23:02Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know, I think it was, wasn't it a series?

• 23:04Chris Ryan?

  No, it was Apartment 7A, it was like a movie, yeah.

• 23:06Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, but it's still the same, I think my point, I think my point still kind of remains, which is just like, Julia Garner is an actor who's deserving of our attention if she's in something new on a streaming service.

• 23:17Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 23:18Andy Greenwald?

  And if it's a scary movie, Chris, you love scary movies, but I, I feel like this maybe is like a, in the same way that the stars we look at at night, that light doesn't know what happened last night in America. That sweet, beautiful, baby, million-year-old starlight. These shows are kind of a projection of a different time that I think broadly didn't work.

• 23:39Chris Ryan?

  No, because when that light started coming towards Earth, it was like, ah, when we get there, George Washington will be president, you know? It's like.

• 23:46Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think the light saw the Nate Bargatze sketches at least? At least had, had a little bit of a chuckle?

• 23:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:53Andy Greenwald?

  No, but, but do you know what I mean? Like, I, I realize what I'm saying is kind of basic and also... If there, if we have, if we still have a lot of listeners in the executive C suite class, I think probably some of them would say, we agree with you off the record, but we can't get, we can't motivate projects or get them moving unless, still, inexplicably, unless there is still something else attached to it. I think fundamentally, the other thing is, I wonder if you think this, for those of us who do care, or have any relationship, and yours is deeper than mine, with the original material, there are certain things that I want from that. So my expectations are raised. And I, other than the very, again, methodical way that Eddie Redmayne's character does his dirty work, I'm not really seeing it yet.

• 24:37Andy Greenwald?

  Because I think that what was so cool about the movie, and what TV generally doesn't do, because as you said, it's kind of anti-TV.

• 24:43Chris Ryan?

  You mean the Bruce Willis search of your movie?

• 24:45Andy Greenwald?

  That's, that did what I wanted.

• 24:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. But, but, but I mean, like, what TV does is it gives you home life. It gives you the spouse. That's what TV does. You fill in the margins. That's, that's not my Jackal. My Jackal is Jackal Black. That's a full name, by the way.

• 25:00Chris Ryan?

  Do you get what I'm saying? I do. I feel like we're in a wonky spot. I, you know, I was-

• 25:06Andy Greenwald?

  Fucking amen, brother.

• 25:07Chris Ryan?

  Looking at my top 10 list, which is seven, you betches.

• 25:15Andy Greenwald?

  Seven locks.

• 25:16Chris Ryan?

  And then, like, are we, are we in a little bit of a three-body problem? Like, like, or what are we talking about here? Like, what was a cool failure? What was something that I, I came to love despite myself? Like, I thought in the first half of this year, I was like, what an embarrassment of riches. We are well and truly back.

• 25:36Andy Greenwald?

  Truly, though, the first four months of the year were outrageous.

• 25:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:40Andy Greenwald?

  And I don't know why, 12 years deep into doing this podcast, we are still surprised by the fact that there is no rhyme or reason to how and when things get dropped on television anymore.

• 25:49Chris Ryan?

  Well, now we're not, for sure.

• 25:50Andy Greenwald?

  Especially now. But I, I think-

• 25:52Chris Ryan?

  I mean, Squid Game's gonna come out.

• 25:54Andy Greenwald?

  We didn't even talk about that.

• 25:56Chris Ryan?

  Christmas? Well, the, the second season of Squid Game's coming out at the end of the year. The Fincher thing, I still don't know how to make heads or tails.

• 26:02Andy Greenwald?

  I don't really understand that.

• 26:03Chris Ryan?

  He was going, he, they, they had been talking to him, Fincher's under an overhaul with Netflix. And I think they had been talking to him about doing a film version of Squid Game America. Like, so he would do a feature take.

• 26:19Chris Ryan?

  Maybe the original version, like just essentially doing the squid game beats again, but with David Fincher.

• 26:24Andy Greenwald?

  Or his previous film, The Game, but with squids.

• 26:27Chris Ryan?

  And now he is doing, uh, yeah.

• 26:30Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 26:30Chris Ryan?

  I know.

• 26:30Andy Greenwald?

  That was a courtesy laugh, but I'll take that.

• 26:33Chris Ryan?

  And now he is doing it as a series, apparently. And I don't know if he is directing the entire thing of, apparently the first thing he is doing for Netflix is a western that he really wants to do about an old man. So, uh, that's great.

• 26:46Andy Greenwald?

  Two tickets sold in this room.

• 26:48Chris Ryan?

  Definitely change some texts with Sean, be like, who will play the old man? Uh.

• 26:52Andy Greenwald?

  By the way, speaking of Fincher, did you feel like Day of the Jackal and Peacock was a little bit lessened because of Fincher's movie Hitman? The Hit, no, not the Hitman. That was The Killer. Sorry. Hitman was the.

• 27:03Chris Ryan?

  Did you see The Killer?

• 27:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, in theater, even though it was free on Netflix. And you should have seen me try to capture a mummy. In Glendale. Is it the Lemley Glendale?

• 27:13Chris Ryan?

  It's like the things that you do in the movie theater are now encouraged at home.

• 27:16Andy Greenwald?

  I was like, that, wait, did he just take the eggs out of the Mc, Egg McMuffin? Mummy, mummy, mummy. Everyone got so mad at me. So then I came running out of the theater and I called you and I explained it to you. The analog mummy.

• 27:30Chris Ryan?

  I want to like every now and every movie, I want to stand up at the end of Conclave and go, that's a mummy.

• 27:37Andy Greenwald?

  Boy, RD voice. I love it. Um, do you think Fincher's psyched about mommies?

• 27:43Chris Ryan?

  I don't think he cares.

• 27:44Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think he cares. I was about to, I was gonna go down like a road of like, well, and pure cinema would demand that the experience, he doesn't care.

• 27:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Anyway, I mean, Squid Game's coming out at the end of the year. White Lotus will be back in the beginning of next year at some point. Um, Severance obviously coming back in the beginning of next year, but a little bit of like a Twilight right now. Twilight of the TV season.

• 28:08Andy Greenwald?

  Is that the only thing you feel that's in Twilight? It's the only lengthening shadows you're feeling nipping at our heels?

• 28:13Chris Ryan?

  I was, you know, I've been enjoying Abbott. I'm trying to think of the other stuff that I've been watching and you're, and you're often transatlantic dalliances. Um, I finished Teacup.

• 28:23Andy Greenwald?

  Hey, how do you feel about that?

• 28:25Chris Ryan?

  I thought that it was. Actually, like a little bit melancholy because I enjoyed it. Uh, it's clearly setting up a second season that I don't know it will get.

• 28:36Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 28:36Chris Ryan?

  And it's the kind of storytelling that I think is like, probably like, generally like the, the like, dead average thing that I want from TV if I'm just like, I just wanna watch the show.

• 28:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I enjoyed it. I'm gonna finish it.

• 28:48Chris Ryan?

  And it sucks that like, nobody knows which way is up enough to know like, hey, we're gonna give this thing like, 18 episodes to tell its story and, you know, hopefully there'll be enough uptake, but we think, as a piece of content, this makes sense for us.

• 29:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 29:02Chris Ryan?

  It's just like, you know, it's just, I, I just wonder if that's gonna be one of these like, forgotten pieces of zeros and ones on a server somewhere. It's like, oh yeah, Teacup Season 1 and it didn't really get to finish its story.

• 29:12Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, oh, that's a little bit of intel. Didn't realize that.

• 29:15Chris Ryan?

  Well, I don't know. I mean, it hasn't been announced. Usually like towards the end of these things.

• 29:19Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, but I thought it was a finite cup. I didn't know there's a crack in the china that lingers at the end of the finale. Can I tell you the, before we get into disclaimer, I did, I legitimately wanted to tell you about a show I watched here before you arrived. Because one, you know, I'm, I'm trying to come up with, I'm here a lot.

• 29:32Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:33Andy Greenwald?

  Great town. One fun thing about it is the sun doesn't come out anymore, ever. I, I didn't wanna like lead with that when I was, I was texting you over the weekend.

• 29:41Chris Ryan?

  Uh-huh.

• 29:41Andy Greenwald?

  But I was FaceTiming with my daughters and they were like, it looked like 1950's Technicolor. And I, I was so.

• 29:48Chris Ryan?

  I can't, I can't do this with you because it's like, when you're in LA, you're like, do you understand the sense of vitality on the streets in London right now? And then when you're here, you're like, LA is a Technicolor.

• 29:58Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't say it was good.

• 29:59Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 30:00Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm, America? No, good. I'm just saying, it's pretty wild that there's no sun anymore for like five months. And now I understand why pints are that size. I just, I'm, it's all coming together.

• 30:10Chris Ryan?

  Do you think they're, they're larger than a pint?

• 30:12Andy Greenwald?

  Well, no, they're like real imperial, like, American pints are not pints.

• 30:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:16Andy Greenwald?

  Sorry, America. Another thing you fucked up. Just hard truths on the Watch Podcast. No, I, I, I'm trying to make like some, you know, like get, get a little bit homier, like come up with some habits and patterns and traditions. And one thing I like to do on Monday evenings is I like to watch whatever cooking show Jamie Oliver is doing.

• 30:36Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:36Andy Greenwald?

  Cause he's so good at television and.

• 30:40Chris Ryan?

  Have you seen his country house where he cooks outside?

• 30:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 30:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but it's getting chillier out. So now he's inside. Also stunning.

• 30:47Chris Ryan?

  What a beta.

• 30:48Andy Greenwald?

  Incredible. Did you see his dog is just sitting there?

• 30:52Chris Ryan?

  Outside? Cause he's like, he's keeping it real?

• 30:54Andy Greenwald?

  No, my dog's like, enough. I'm an indoor dog.

• 30:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:57Andy Greenwald?

  And everything, no matter what he makes is just bang easy, bang on easy. Just a couple of flecked forks worth of whatever. It all looks great. Love that show.

• 31:06Chris Ryan?

  Did you do that this Monday? Did you watch a little Jamie?

• 31:07Andy Greenwald?

  I did, but this is the story I'm telling you. So before I tuned into Jamie, I tuned in a little early and I had like BBC four or whatever on. And there is a show here that is now filming its sixth season and it's called Canal Boat Diaries. Okay. And it is a show about a man.

• 31:23Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:24Andy Greenwald?

  Who has opted out of the nine to five life. And in fact, what we recognize as life and is piloting, puttering around the very narrow canals of rural England in a canal boat called, I believe the Dirty Lass.

• 31:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:43Andy Greenwald?

  And that's the show, guys. That is in its, going to its sixth season. I watched an episode and he was like, oh, well, I'm going to have to traverse this lock to get to the other side of the canal. And then there's like a guy that looks like Hodor just standing there. And it's just like, Alex doesn't get paid to do this. He just enjoys operating the lock. And he's like, how long have you been doing this? And he's just like, about 15 years, I'd say. And then the boat keeps going.

• 32:07Chris Ryan?

  Is it a docu-series?

• 32:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it's not, it's not scripted.

• 32:10Chris Ryan?

  When you were like, this voice starts talking, I was like, are we in disclaimer territory where there's like a off-screen third person, but internal dialogue?

• 32:18Andy Greenwald?

  Or Jamie Oliver's dog is narrating it like Son of Sam. Um, and then he's just like, I don't have any food in the larder. I'll just make some soda bread. And then he makes bread in his oven on his boat. And then he puts butter on it. And he's like, that's all I need to eat. And then at the end of the episode, it wasn't even a cliffhanger. He parked his fucking tiny boat and he walked into town. He's like, about 20 minutes into town. Noted. Next time I'm in Cheshire. And he just walks back with a six pack of Heineken and he's like

• 32:48Chris Ryan?

  What time is this on on Monday? Is this like?

• 32:50Andy Greenwald?

  7pm.

• 32:50Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 32:51Andy Greenwald?

  But here's my favorite part. I know I'm painting you a picture, but I also understand that if you're listening, you're like, it probably makes more sense when I see the beautiful English countryside. And it does. But when I Googled Canal Boat Diaries, I was pleased to see that he has a companion podcast.

• 33:08Chris Ryan?

  Does he really?

• 33:09Andy Greenwald?

  Where he also talks about-

• 33:10Chris Ryan?

  Is it him and Hodor?

• 33:11Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's just him being like, "Today on the boat, we went and wandered. You can't turn the boat."

• 33:17Chris Ryan?

  How long are his episodes, you think?

• 33:19Andy Greenwald?

  57 minutes.

• 33:22Chris Ryan?

  How long are the episodes of the TV show?

• 33:24Andy Greenwald?

  I think it was an hour, maybe it's a half hour. Look, it was gentle and it was beautiful and I liked it. But I swear to God that there are aspects of being here that I think that I'm hallucinating. So it's very crucial to me that you're here too.

• 33:38Chris Ryan?

  Canal Boat Diaries does justice to Fred Zinnaman's original Canal Boat Diaries from the early 70s.

• 33:43Andy Greenwald?

  Day of the Canal Boat? It is process oriented. He was like, "What should I do today?" I'm like, "You literally have two choices. You can go forward in your canal boat, or you can talk about how it's time to paint the canal boat." Every time he stops the boat, the camera lovingly lingers on him pushing in the little switch and turning it. So we're like, "Oh, thank God, the engine's off."

• 34:08Chris Ryan?

  Oh, he has an engine. He's not pulling it.

• 34:10Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, no, no.

• 34:10Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 34:11Andy Greenwald?

  What is this, in Venice? No.

• 34:14Chris Ryan?

  Speaking of Venice-

• 34:15Andy Greenwald?

  Have you ever been on a English canal boat?

• 34:17Chris Ryan?

  Uh, my cousin lived on one briefly.

• 34:20Andy Greenwald?

  But he wasn't puttering around, I bet.

• 34:21Chris Ryan?

  She was just, she was just hanging out.

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• 36:41Speaker 01

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• 36:50Chris Ryan?

  Speaking of Venice.

• 36:51Andy Greenwald?

  I can't believe you're cutting me off, but yes, I approve.

• 36:53Chris Ryan?

  We can do this all day if we want. Actually, we can't. We have to get out of here eventually. But I can't tell if we've, seriously, it feels like we've been podcasting for two hours or 12 seconds. I can't remember, but I do want to talk a little bit about disclaimer, which is

• 37:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I'm ready.

• 37:08Chris Ryan?

  truly one of the strangest experiments I've ever seen a multinational corporation undertake.

• 37:13Andy Greenwald?

  Absolutely.

• 37:13Chris Ryan?

  Which is underwriting Alfonso Cuarón's, uh, I would, I mean, like, honestly, it's not self-indulgent. It's not like a flight of artistic fancy. If there was more crazy filmmaking going on, if there was more, like, through the looking glass moments, I would be like, oh, yeah, for sure, man.

• 37:33Andy Greenwald?

  Let him, let Alfonso cook.

• 37:34Chris Ryan?

  Yes. That's not what this is. I, you haven't talked about it in a couple of weeks. I know you kind of did a little bit of a drive-by on it, maybe one episode or two episodes ago.

• 37:43Andy Greenwald?

  We stopped at for four and now we're at six.

• 37:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, because we promised we were gonna wait till the finale to kind of weigh in.

• 37:47Andy Greenwald?

  But then events took over and here we are, getting pulled back in. Let's start exactly where you started, which is, it cannot be overstated how fucking strange this is, because this is basically like an, like an airport potboiler that he is just deciding to just A-list the shit out of and just spewing cinema everywhere. Just splatter Jackson Pollock painting cinema.

• 38:12Chris Ryan?

  But do you think it's spewing cinema?

• 38:14Andy Greenwald?

  No, just the way it looks and how heavy everything is and the voiceover and how serious he's taking something that is, at its best, wrote melodrama? I'm kind of stunned by it. It is, it is genuinely stunning in the sense that, yes, it is very hard to get anything made. And, you know, the internet is full of like, loving peons to like, all the projects that have died with great people attached to them. And like, you know, that fell apart over the last minute of our financing, things that you think would have been instant green lights. So this got made, which is great for, for him, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he has spent the six years since Roma being like, I must make this potboiler.

• 38:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:57Andy Greenwald?

  I must tell the story of a sexy documentarian and her cuck husband.

• 39:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 39:03Andy Greenwald?

  Like, that is the number one thing I want to do with my time on this verdant earth.

• 39:08Chris Ryan?

  And are we doing spoilers for the second to last episode?

• 39:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 39:10Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 39:11Andy Greenwald?

  So I, I'm going to try to be gentle about that. But I have to say, before we even get into like the aesthetics of the show, or the value judgment, or the criticism of it, I don't know if I've ever seen anything on this scale that is, I was gonna say this much sizzle and no steak, but there's barely any sizzle. Like, I don't understand from an emotional, psychological perspective on the character side, or an artistic cinematic perspective on the artisan side, what the fuss is. Like, I guess we're gonna find out more in the finale, Catherine's true culpability, or whatever. But otherwise, like, a very, very strange old man stalking someone with a novel that everyone reads?

• 39:56Andy Greenwald?

  About a beach accident?

• 40:00Andy Greenwald?

  Let's just move on, right? Can we turn the page? Nope, can't say that anymore. But, do you know what I mean?

• 40:07Chris Ryan?

  Uh, yeah, I do.

• 40:08Andy Greenwald?

  It's real weird. It's real weird, and it's not real weird in the like, Academy Award-winning director wants to try his hand at a genre pick. That's not the vibes here, you know what I mean? Like, you can do better than I can, because you are actually on the Big Picture Podcast. But I feel like we do have good examples of great filmmakers being like, you know what, I'm just gonna make a horror movie. Or I'm gonna do a, like, you said about Fincher, he wants to make a Western, because he loves movies, and that's something that he can scratch a particular itch.

• 40:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think that Corone is somebody who, for, at least in terms of gravity, it was about the, almost not the fixed angle, but the sense of like, your closeness to the Sandra Bullock character. There was a degree to which I thought that was like, a technical achievement that far outweighed its like, sort of storytelling verve. It was essentially like, she's lost at sea, can she get home? She does, you know?

• 41:00Andy Greenwald?

  But, but there were other ways in, including, how many actors can hold our attention for that much time and have us on their side? And it's like, I understand.

• 41:08Chris Ryan?

  And maybe, that is, maybe, if you look back over his career, is a history of him betting on something, and nine times out of 10, that bet comes through.

• 41:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 41:18Chris Ryan?

  And this is the time that that bet didn't come through. And maybe the bet was, Cate Blanchett can... You would follow her as her life falls apart and still be curious to see like what the last bit of the story would be and even if you're like, why am I watching this woman get torn to pieces? Perhaps she deserves it like, you know, I don't really actually know what this show is trying to quote unquote say, which is like, fine if the just straight story is interesting or or kind of engaging on a certain level. We're really hatin' today.

• 41:51Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't want to do that either. I was kind of actually hoping, that's why I was really wanted to just drill down on why we like watching 30 Rock, because I didn't want to come in with the vibes that we are carrying and dislike two things.

• 42:02Chris Ryan?

  I like, but I like Daredevil, so that's, that's.

• 42:05Andy Greenwald?

  So now I dislike you and these two things. Great. No, I, I, I find disclaimer, I, I agree, I find it fascinating, but um, I find it so deeply unpleasant and so deeply curious and that it, that it exists at all, like, I don't think Cate Blanchett is particularly good in this, but I also, what would good mean? Playing a part who is just put upon and suffering and annoyed and everyone's turning on her because they, first of all, nobody reads books. I, I would like to live in the Quarren universe where books can really move mountains.

• 42:42Chris Ryan?

  Self-published thriller.

• 42:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 42:44Chris Ryan?

  That was just like on a website, has taken over the London bookselling world.

• 42:49Andy Greenwald?

  But it's not just that. An old man's like, I've brought you six copies of this book and everyone's like, sick. I've got a whole night free to just, no, that's what I do on airplanes apparently, but I'm not saying everyone else needs to.

• 42:59Chris Ryan?

  Well, if you were like, this book has a lot, sounds a lot like my life, you'd probably crush that in one night, though.

• 43:05Andy Greenwald?

  You think?

• 43:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, if I was like a perfect stranger and it was about like you.

• 43:10Andy Greenwald?

  About us meeting at Borders in Rosemont.

• 43:12Chris Ryan?

  And then the terrible crime you committed against me.

• 43:18Chris Ryan?

  And that this entire 25 year relationship is exactly, actually my revenge plot against you?

• 43:24Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that's how we'd settle it?

• 43:26Chris Ryan?

  Through a novel?

• 43:27Andy Greenwald?

  Through an epistolary novel, some shit. Oh, it'd be so great. It, it, it is just so odd because none of the pieces of the show are talking to each other in the sense that, first of all, it's just inert, scene after scene with voiceover explaining what's in the scene.

• 43:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but that's the thing is like, I think that that

• 43:48Andy Greenwald?

  Bummer.

• 43:49Chris Ryan?

  That really is the thing that, that finally broke me was I was just like, I just can't, there actually isn't enough going on on screen. And this isn't like Goodfellas where it's like, there's like a ironic counter voice to some of the violence or something like that. It's just, this is just like rambling.

• 44:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Chris Ryan?

  And I, I don't know what the, the sort of like intended, like reaction the audience is supposed to have from the amount of like floating, strange narration that's happening here, but it's not, it's probably not.

• 44:20Andy Greenwald?

  And like Kevin Kline's like super mannered performance as someone who's just like a psychopath.

• 44:28Chris Ryan?

  But that, I mean, I understand that part is that like you're, you're supposed to confront your own biases and your own preconceived notions.

• 44:36Andy Greenwald?

  And that my favorite fictional president, Dave, is now wearing a cardigan and walking around with a syringe full of household cleaning agents to murder a boy? In hospital?

• 44:47Andy Greenwald?

  Like, I, I, I, I guess the other thing about it that is just fundamentally like, look, this, this was given no notes. You know what I mean? Like it's just, that's clear. And for as much as I'm like, something like Day of the Jackal has too many notes of like, let's establish LaShawna Lynch's bona fides as a sniper lover. You know what I mean? Like with these two pithy scenes.

• 45:07Chris Ryan?

  You know, you have to hate something and love something at the same time to have, have it be your patch.

• 45:12Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, well, get ready for the next four years. Anyway, the, uh,

• 45:19Andy Greenwald?

  the fact that like, there is no life within the show in the sense that like even her Catherine's son, Cody Smith McPhee, who I, I liked, I have liked as an actor. Nicholas. He's just like sour, mean to everyone, also secretly a heroin addict. And then. Is about to be murdered in hospital? It's like, what do we, what do we do? Okay, here's really my take. Ready? I think it's time for me to finally be real on the microphone. After all these years.

• 45:47Chris Ryan?

  You don't actually like television?

• 45:49Andy Greenwald?

  No, I was being polite for political reasons. But now.

• 45:52Chris Ryan?

  Ever since 30 Rock went off the air.

• 45:54Andy Greenwald?

  Ever since 30 Rock went off the air and ever since I looked at my phone at 5 a.m. this morning, I got, I got zero Fs left to give.

• 45:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:59Andy Greenwald?

  And, uh, the thing you were saying, it's funny that you actually said this because this is actually where I was going, about how LaShawna Lynch on the Peacock show, that's not premiering until next week, Day of the Jackal, feels about snipers is how I feel about this show, which is to say.

• 46:14Chris Ryan?

  Disclaimer.

• 46:15Andy Greenwald?

  Disclaimer.

• 46:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:16Andy Greenwald?

  Unequivocally, I hate it. But I mean that with intention.

• 46:22Andy Greenwald?

  Hating something.

• 46:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Andy Greenwald?

  That is a passionate response. So there is an argument to be made that that alone proves that it's interesting or doing something.

• 46:30Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 46:30Andy Greenwald?

  Particular.

• 46:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:31Andy Greenwald?

  Because Day of the Jackal, I, I, I didn't.

• 46:33Chris Ryan?

  It's gonna be amazing if in 18 months, there's some kind of disclaimer, like reclamation project.

• 46:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 46:41Chris Ryan?

  Of like, actually, Khoron.

• 46:42Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sure there will be.

• 46:43Chris Ryan?

  Was trying to tell us about like the man in the mirror, you know?

• 46:45Andy Greenwald?

  Had I not bravely quit Twitter two hours ago, I'm sure I could find someone saying that now.

• 46:50Chris Ryan?

  So that you can still see people talking about you.

• 46:53Andy Greenwald?

  Didn't keep it on my phone, brother. Um, no, I mean, like, I don't think it's doing, I, I don't know. I'm not sure if I feel this way or not, but today I do. It's like, I don't know if you're doing a great artist or, and a great technician like Khoron, a service by letting him do this. Or you're doing Cate Blanchett a service by like letting her.

• 47:14Chris Ryan?

  This should be your new role in Hollywood, Dr. No.

• 47:17Andy Greenwald?

  Fuck it.

• 47:17Chris Ryan?

  And it's like, you have a blank check from the Bezos Sarandos fund to make anything, but your, your role is to be like, nah, man, we're not gonna do that.

• 47:27Andy Greenwald?

  Every company would pay someone to have, to be that guy. They're all doing it anyway. Like, it's actually hard.

• 47:32Chris Ryan?

  But they're not saying no, they say yes to the wrong things, right?

• 47:35Andy Greenwald?

  They say yes to the wrong things.

• 47:36Chris Ryan?

  Uh.

• 47:36Andy Greenwald?

  Do you, do you feel any kind of way about the show other than perplexed? Like, I, I, I think it is worth noting, like, I did get, I was impassioned by these last two episodes.

• 47:45Chris Ryan?

  You kept watching it. I was like, I gave you a couple of get at it.

• 47:48Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that's because I couldn't get Jackal screeners until yesterday. Let's be honest.

• 47:51Chris Ryan?

  It's not coming out until next week. I, I do not feel as passionately angry about it as you do, but I do not enjoy watching it. It is, it is like, I think I almost would rather watch boring television than TV like this.

• 48:05Andy Greenwald?

  So. Not to try to put my arms around the whole thing, but I do think that sometimes we talk our way into...

• 48:13Chris Ryan?

  If you could put your arms around this entire podcast, it's gonna be one of your greatest, thank you, greatest moments.

• 48:18Andy Greenwald?

  It's like, we squeeze things a little bit. I just feel like maybe we could dig in with some more clarity here because what I basically just said was disclaimer, for all the other reasons that I dislike it, primarily, there is no life in its art, to quote one of my favorite songs from Sunday in the Park with George by the great Stephen Sondheim.

• 48:39Andy Greenwald?

  I'm just letting it go, buddy. Get ready. But also, I was just dinging Day of the Jackal for too much, too much life, being like, I don't actually need to go home with MI5 sniper expert, and I don't necessarily need to feel how she is overburdened by having to parent and try to work another Northern Irish arms dealer connection. Do you know what I mean? So what actually are we arguing here? Just to get a better balance, or is there some, is there some connective tissue to this argument that isn't contradictory?

• 49:10Chris Ryan?

  I think that there probably was a time within the last seven or eight years where we felt probably like, not every show was for us. Maybe not every show was great, obviously, but that even the shows that didn't work were like watchable.

• 49:29Chris Ryan?

  You know what I mean? And that we have lost some tools of watchability. Now, that might have something to do with the amount of stuff that's on, the amount of stress that people who are making it are under to hit certain goals, to tell certain stories, to tell them in a certain kind of way, to shoot them under duress, whatever, make them for international audiences, however that they have to do it at each different streamer. But I think that there is definitely seems to be an erosion in, like, can you just tell like a cool 49-minute Episode of this story and like even if I'm not super into, you know, like I'm not into like the Americans or whatever, like I recognize it's really good.

• 50:11Andy Greenwald?

  It's just not for you.

• 50:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, exactly. And it's like, I think that this is happening in films too, especially the blockbuster ones.

• 50:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 50:17Chris Ryan?

  Where you're just like, what the fuck is happening, man?

• 50:19Andy Greenwald?

  Well, it it is a lack of agreed upon shape because again,

• 50:24Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:25Andy Greenwald?

  We're always trying to make, maybe, maybe this is overly labored, but Day of the Jackal worked brilliantly as a movie and now they're trying to turn it into a TV show. So what do you keep? What do you change? How do you strike that balance?

• 50:34Chris Ryan?

  But this isn't Twister. Like, no one cares if these guys want to do different things with Day of the Jackal. I think it's cool that they updated it.

• 50:40Andy Greenwald?

  I agree with that, but I also think that there is a push-pull and a balance that is hard to get right. Like even, even in subsequent decisions or ancillary decisions that I was only joking about when I mentioned, like 10 hours of the show, maybe it earns them, you know, maybe it is worth it. Uh, maybe that that's how much story they had, but also maybe not. I, we don't know. Uh, because it's not coming out for American audiences, maybe ever. Uh, no, next week. But similarly, Disclaimer is a filmmaker being like, I will require seven hours for this story, but I will shoot it like a film and whatever, you know, and so it doesn't feel right. The flip side of that was I was doing a little dabbling in the broadcast waters and was watching some CBS procedurals because I was kind of interested.

• 51:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:24Andy Greenwald?

  In Madlock and Elsbeth. And I was like, well, people really like these. And I, you know, this was during my outreach project to the rest of America that ended, um, this morning.

• 51:33Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 51:33Andy Greenwald?

  But, uh, but those, I was like, yeah, okay, I, someone is still, there is someone who is still J.K. Simmons in Whiplash, who is saying like, okay, this is exactly the rhythm of what this entertainment should be.

• 51:47Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 51:47Andy Greenwald?

  And that is very, very comforting, but I'm too far gone, man. Like I was watching it and I was chafing against that time signature.

• 51:54Chris Ryan?

  Well, that's maybe you're, you're like, I'm not, I'm not chocolate, but I'm not vanilla. You know, like I can't, I can't take Carone, having some dude read at me for 61 minutes. But I also don't like Elsbeth and.

• 52:07Andy Greenwald?

  So where, what's the role for me in this new?

• 52:10Chris Ryan?

  30 Rock reruns.

• 52:12Andy Greenwald?

  30 Rock reruns.

• 52:12Chris Ryan?

  And mommies. Uh, all right, let's, let's wrap it up.

• 52:15Andy Greenwald?

  What a great momie this was for us.

• 52:17Chris Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 52:18Andy Greenwald?

  You don't feel?

• 52:19Chris Ryan?

  I, well, this is the first one of our pods since you've been working overseas, where I've been the jet lagged one.

• 52:25Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, oh, is that what it is?

• 52:27Chris Ryan?

  So I definitely feel a little bit of a, like a...

• 52:30Andy Greenwald?

  I think you're doing great, but you've looked at me a few times like I'm absolutely...

• 52:33Chris Ryan?

  No, I'm looking at you because I'm like, man, I really can't believe I thought Jackal was coming out tomorrow.

• 52:39Andy Greenwald?

  You're still...

• 52:39Chris Ryan?

  Just regret.

• 52:40Andy Greenwald?

  I think you're doing great.

• 52:41Chris Ryan?

  All right. Thanks for joining us. Thanks to Kaya for producing us. Thanks to Bex for, for setting up our studio here in London and, um, hope everybody is doing okay.

• 52:50Andy Greenwald?

  We love you guys.

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