Ernst Roets: Attacks on Whites in South Africa, Attempts to Hide It, and Trump’s Plan to End It

South Africa is what happens when you take DEI seriously, which is why the western media pretend it’s not happening. Ernst Roets on what’s going on there right now. (00:00) South Africa Is Falling Apart (04:03) The True Story of Nelson Mandela (08:50) Perfect Example of the Failures of Communism (12:34) The Killing of Whites in South Africa (25:01) The West’s Role in the Destruction of South Africa (29:02) The Origins of the Afrikaner People (37:40) Europe’s Propaganda War and Concentration Camps Paid partnerships with: Heritage Foundation: https://Heritage.org/Tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:32Tucker Carlson?

  So I think for most Americans, news about South Africa ended in 1994. Both literally, we stopped getting a lot of news from the country, but also people's views about it stopped evolving then. That was the year that the apartheid ended, I guess officially. You had elections. Nelson Mandela is still a hero in the United States, often referred to by politicians. And it's only been, I think, in American media in the past couple of months that stories have come out of South Africa that a lot of Americans have read, that actually the country seems to be falling apart and that the government is kind of genocidally racist. Yeah.

• 1:17Tucker Carlson?

  And then President Trump in the past month has basically said the same thing. And it's shocking to a lot of people, I think, how bad it is and just how racist it is, far more than apartheid, everyone was.

• 1:51Tucker Carlson?

  And so I'm wondering, since you've just landed from South Africa, you live there, describe the state of the country right now, if you would.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, perhaps I can start with your reference about the 90s, because it's absolutely true. South Africa and America was very involved with the setting up of the political system that we have in South Africa during the 90s. And it was, of course, the End of history era, everyone is excited about the fall of the Berlin Wall and the whole world's going to be liberal and democratic, including African countries.

• 2:18Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  And Samuel Huntington actually cautioned against this in nineteen ninety six, saying, you know, when he wrote The Clash of Civilizations.

• 2:24Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  And he said, don't expect of African leaders and African liberation movements to suddenly become Western when you give them Western constitutions, because they are still African. So they will use, it's the democratic paradox, they will use democratic institutions to promote non-democratic ends. And that's what we see in in South Africa. We have a parliament, we have a very liberal constitution. But if you read the constitution and you compare that to reality in South Africa, it's two completely different worlds. The de facto and the de jure reality in South Africa is is irreconcilable. And so what has been happening in South Africa is firstly, there was this major excitement about the new South African else Mandela. The miracle story, you know, Oprah spoke about this and Charlize Theron, everyone.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  And and but the reality on ground level was in many ways the opposite. And I think a lot of.

• 3:14Tucker Carlson?

  From the beginning?

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Gradually. So so they started, for example, with these B E E, as they call it, it's black economic empowerment, which of course has nothing to do with economic empowerment. They started with that in nineteen ninety six. And so they actually said initially in the nineties that that's the ruling party's strategy, they still call it that, the national democratic revolution. Which is about using democracy to promote socialist ends. And so the revolution, they say, goes in two phases. The first phase is present yourself as being liberal and democratic and get support, especially international support and local. And then use multi-party democracy as a way of promoting the goals of taking the country down the road to socialism.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  And and so recently, they even went as far as publishing a document saying, we are now ready for the second phase of the revolution. We now have power, we have control of the state. We now need to use this to become much more aggressive in our socialist policies. And and we're seeing this in a plethora of new laws all of a sudden in South Africa. Uh, which I think I think it's gotten to the point where it's just not possible to maintain the view that people have had of South Africa for the last few decades. And look at what's currently happening in South Africa. It's two completely different worlds and and hopefully, or happily at least, a lot of people are starting to to wake up to this.

• 4:35Tucker Carlson?

  So you said Samuel Huntington wrote that in 1996, two years after the election.

• 4:43Tucker Carlson?

  I kind of thought that from day one, simply because I knew people there. And I was more familiar with the details of the Mandelas.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:55Tucker Carlson?

  So, but I think most Americans, I don't think, had any idea, like, what was Nelson Mandela on Robben Island for? What was he in prison for?

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Well, if

• 5:02Tucker Carlson?

  For being black, or was there another reason?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Well, literally, so I have, I have children and they are taught in schools and the government prescribes what children should learn in, in history. And so the, the official version is he went to prison because he was a good leader and the government didn't like that. I should say that he certainly was the best that the ANC has ever had to offer.

• 5:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  But the reason why he went to prison is because they, they started in Kwantwe Siswe, which was the military wing of the ANC, which became involved with military actions in South Africa with an attempt to overthrow the government. And they actually, and this is, this is, I'm quoting from the ANC's own policy documents that's on their own website. So they had this operation when they started, which was used in the Rivonia trial against Nelson Mandela. It was a strategy called Operation Maie Bouye. And the slogan of this operation was, shamelessly we shall attack the weak and shamelessly we shall flee from the strong. So those were the circumstances in the 1960s.

• 6:03Tucker Carlson?

  Pretty noble policy statement, there will attack the weak and flee from the strong.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's still on their website, you can find it there. So that was, it was an attempt at an armed uprising. Now, we can talk about everything that was wrong with the previous political system in, in South Africa, and there was a lot wrong, but, but it's simply not the case that he went to prison for being a good leader.

• 6:24Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I, I think that most people would acknowledge a distinction between military action, which is, you know, a A fight, a war, a battle between militaries and attacks on civilians, which is something we call terrorism.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yes, so in 1985, the ANC had a conference in Kabwe in Zambia, and they took a formal decision that in their so-called military operations, they would not differentiate between hard and soft targets. So it was officially a policy that says we can kill innocent people. And a lot of innocent people died in the political violence in the run-up to 1994. And 90% of the people who died were black South Africans.

• 7:07Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  It was.

• 7:08Tucker Carlson?

  But non-commandants, women, children.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, women and children.

• 7:11Tucker Carlson?

  Passersby, you know, people had nothing to do with anything.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, especially.

• 7:14Tucker Carlson?

  And so during that time that Mandela was in prison, I'm 55, so I remember this very, very well, his wife was effectively his spokesman, Winnie Mandela. And she was lionizing the United States. She was a hero. She was the mother of an emerging nation, you know, a woman of peace and decency, really a transcendent figure, a holy figure. And then it turned out that actually she was a murderer who had, you know, burned to death or supervised the murder of a bunch of different people. Tell us about that.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yes, so let me firstly say that I have a lot of respect for Nelson Mandela. I think in terms of his efforts and as I say, I think he's the best the ANC has ever had to offer. Winnie Mandela, his wife, not so much. So she famously, I mean, she's been involved with a lot of things, including what was called the Mandela Football Club.

• 8:04Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Which was a gang that was involved with violence and killings of innocent people. And she famously said at a political rally, with our necklaces and our matches, we will liberate this country.

• 8:16Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Which of course is a reference to the necklace murders, which was very popular in South Africa and still happens in South Africa. That's when you take a rubber tire, you fill it with petrol or gasoline, and you put it around someone's neck so that it's bound around their arms, and you set it on fire, and then you stone that person while he's burning to death. And that happened, there were, I think, five or 700 people were killed like that during political violence in South Africa. And she encouraged this. Initially, she denied it, and then it came out that it was recorded of her saying this. So yes, it's very bizarre that someone like Winnie Mandela is a hero today.

• 8:53Tucker Carlson?

  And was a hero then. And so that, to me, was a sign that these are, these are not liberators, that they're oppressors.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. And so, but no one in the West wanted to think that. It was like a really simple tale of white oppression of noble black people and by definition, the black, I mean, there were oppressed black people, of course. And there were noble black people, but the leadership always struck me as evil.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Yes. So there were some better and some worse people in the leadership. I think an important component here that is very well documented, it's not a secret, but a lot of people don't seem to want to know this or recognize this, is the very strong alliance that the ANC has always had and still has with the South African Communist Party and the extent to which they were supported, not just by the Soviet Union, also by the Vietnamese and by Mao Zedong as well, implementing what they call the People's War Strategy that they got from Mao Zedong. So yes, it was very much the ANC saw themselves as being the African or South African frontier of promoting a socialist or communist revolution.

• 10:01Tucker Carlson?

  Hmm. So how did it turn out?

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Well, you mean in terms of where we are today?

• 10:08Tucker Carlson?

  Let's, let's, just to follow different threads. So let's just start with, I don't know, technology and infrastructure. What did, in 1993, South Africa was famously the most prosperous society in Africa by far, right? Among the most prosperous in the world, correct? They had nuclear weapons in South Africa.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:28Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:31Tucker Carlson?

  What is it like now, 30 years later?

• 10:34Speaker 02

  Well, the reality is that, that virtually every sphere of society is collapsing, with the exception of taxation, of course, and tax collection. That's still very, very efficient. Maybe I can explain it this way. So- America has a somewhat skewed tax system with, if my information is correct, about eighty-five percent of tax, income tax in America is paid by about ten percent of the people.

• 11:01Tucker Carlson?

  I think that's correct.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  So, one in ten. In South Africa, eighty-five percent of income tax is paid by one in thirty people. So, it's a very small number of people, a very small portion of society that pays tax, that is heavily taxed. And then about almost half of the population in South Africa get money from the government in the form of social grants. If you add government employees, conservative estimates say that fifty percent of people in South Africa get money from the government. Some estimates say it's up to sixty percent of adults, voting age adults, get money from the government each year. So then, this money, of course, is then used,

• 11:42Speaker 02

  it's given out as social grants, but what's left is used to set up these programs that are actively discriminating against taxpayers. Like, I mean, there are so many examples. One of the most recent ones is this Blacks Only Fund that the government has set up, whereby they give money to black entrepreneurs exclusively. So, so this is happening. And then, on top of that, so after you spend your tax money to fund these government programs that are discriminating against you, you have to spend what is left to do the things that the government was supposed to be doing. So, the classical definition of a government is that it should protect life, liberty, and property. The classical liberal view, we're a bit Ciceronian, so we think a government has to do more than that. But, but if we use those three things, the government's not protecting our lives.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  There's about, if this interview that we're about to have is two hours, it'll, there will be about seven murders in South Africa in this time. Government does not protect liberty. It's actively targeting schools of minority communities, actively denying the identity and the rights of minority communities. And it's certainly not protecting property. It's actively involved with the program to empower the government to expropriate private property without compensation. So, so, and then we have to use the money that is left to pay for our own private security, to become involved with organizations, to fulfill the things that the government was supposed to be doing with the tax money that we paid in the first place.

• 13:06Tucker Carlson?

  One of the reasons that I find this story so fascinating is not simply because, you know, it's like the classical, you know, irony of history. This, you know, group comes in with one aim and then achieves exactly the opposite. We're gonna have a, you know, we're gonna end racism and then make racism much worse. But also because they have gone about it in a way that's almost like American. The same language, the same diversity is our strength, kind of sloganeering. And it's had the same result, which is to basically kill whites. And I, I mean, that's just true. And I, I wonder if you see that. It's almost like you imported our kind of intellectual class framework for this project.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  That's absolutely the case. So, so there's a theory, there was this video that just went viral on, on social media of this guy talking about how white people are subhuman and all of that. And they get, well, this is taught at universities in South Africa. There's a theory called a Zania critical theory. A Zania is a Pan African word for South Africa. And they actually get this from Americans like Robin DiAngelo, who's this Ibrahim X Kendi, Tana Yezidko, it's these people. They get it from them. And then they put an African flavor on it, which essentially boils down to a theory that justifies the targeting and extermination of the white minority. And, and so the theory, to summarize,

• 14:29Speaker 02

  goes more or less like this. There's an African term called Ubuntu, which means brotherliness or, or it's, it's about your internal humanity. It's a Zulu term. And the theory goes that white people are incapable of having Ubuntu. But Ubuntu is the essence of humanity. So if you don't have it, you're not truly human. So it boils down, the, the logical conclusion is that if you kill a white person, then you did not actually commit murder. So this is not widely believed in South Africa, but this is taught at universities by university professors. And it's certainly believed by radical elements.

• 15:06Tucker Carlson?

  It's a predicate for genocide. I mean, it's always the same in every, I mean, we're watching in parts of the world now, they're not fully human, right? So we can kill them. Because they're fully human, then it's a, it's a course of grave sin to kill them.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, well, we've always been saying that there's not a genocide in South Africa, looking at what happened in Rwanda and so forth. It's not the same thing. But it is very alarming to look at some of these claims that are being made and to compare that to what was made in Rwanda.

• 15:31Tucker Carlson?

  And well, every country and you know genocide broadly defined, an attempt to eliminate a group of people on the basis of their race or ethnicity.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we have these political parties chanting, I mean, you've seen this, you've reported on this chanting, kill the boer, kill the farmer to a stadium filled with people. And it's not just rhetoric. So they would say, no, it's just a metaphor, but it's preceded by a speech about how white people are criminals and should be treated like criminals, how everything they have is illegitimate and stolen, in which people are encouraged to go and invade their farms and so forth. And then they chant, kill the boer, kill the farmer, and they make these hand gestures. Of course, the boer is a reference to the Afrikaner people. But the reality is also that the farmers are being attacked and killed on their farms. So it's not just a metaphor. And our attempts at researching this has found that there's

• 16:20Speaker 02

  an increase in farm attacks, when obviously when the political climate becomes heated or warmer, and these type of statements are made in a way that's highly publicized, you do get an increase in farm attacks. And it's very brutal and very horrific farm attacks that we see.

• 16:36Tucker Carlson?

  So the farm attacks are attacks against white farmers, not against...

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Not exclusively white farmers, but it's attacks against farmers in South Africa, of which the majority is white.

• 16:45Tucker Carlson?

  Right, okay. So this has been going on a long time. I think it's been well documented. I believe you wrote a book about it, which has become very, sold a lot of copies on Amazon, I noticed.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:59Tucker Carlson?

  And so none of this is like a secret, and all of it's verifiable because, you know, dead people are pretty easy to track because they're dead.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have the names of the people who've been murdered.

• 17:08Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. But in the United States, the country that inspired the revolution that you're living through, our media have ignored that and then...

• 17:18Tucker Carlson?

  Gone beyond ignoring it to attack anyone who brings it up as a quote white supremacist.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, well, I can tell you so many stories about this.

• 17:27Tucker Carlson?

  Please do.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  For example, I was on your show a few years ago to talk about the farm murders. And the extent to which we were attacked by American media as a result of that. I had someone from CNN come see me in my office in Pretoria. And to interview me about farm attacks. And the entire interview was about you. So you would put things to me and say, did you know Tucker Carlson said the following? Do you agree with this statement? And did you know that Donald Trump said this? And are you comfortable with this? And so I paused him at one stage and I said, what are we doing? I thought we had to talk about farm murders and what's happening in South Africa. But the only, so the argument was that because Trump made that comment about farm murders in 2018. And it has to be a nonexisting issue because Trump is a liar and everything he says is false.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  And the same with you because you spoke about it. That means that the problem doesn't exist and we have to prove that it doesn't exist in order to get to you.

• 18:20Tucker Carlson?

  Well, not only doesn't it exist, you're not allowed to complain about it existing.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 18:26Tucker Carlson?

  Somehow, it's somehow a moral crime to notice and to not like it. When people are murdered for the color of their skin.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  It's bizarre, it's.

• 18:37Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's not bizarre, it's, it's a, they're telegraphing genocidal intent when they're telling you. No, you're not getting killed and yes, it's a good thing that you are.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Yes, and now you're not getting killed.

• 18:48Tucker Carlson?

  What are they saying?

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's no, you're not getting killed and if you are, you deserve it.

• 18:51Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Because of a variety of things, because the attackers are poor. Or because remember all the horrible things that white people have done in South Africa and outside of South Africa. So, so there's always a justification. And, and so another example, just in 2018, again, after you spoke about this and after Trump spoke about this. The president of South Africa, Cyril Ramaphosa, came to America. And he spoke at an event in in New York and he said there are no killings of farmers in South Africa and he just flat out denied the existence of the problem. And he said this on an international platform. He said, it's not happening. It's not true. And and the worst of it all was how the media knew this was wrong, especially mainstream media in South Africa. They knew that it's not true.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  And so they immediately rushed to his defense, writing articles like this is what he actually meant to say. And then they sort of justify what's happening. And so it's it's we really do sometimes feel that our biggest battle is not primarily against what the government is doing, but against how the media is reporting.

• 19:55Tucker Carlson?

  But just consider this. I mean, if, you know, if Tutsis and Kilgali in 1994 said, boy, I, you know, I, a lot of us seem to be getting hacked to death by machetes. And reporters or political figures said, shut up. You know, you're a Tutsi supremacist for saying so.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 20:15Tucker Carlson?

  I think we could fairly say the people shouting them down are pro genocide of Tutsis.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:21Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, what what's the other explanation? I don't really get it. I mean, what honestly, what's the other explanation?

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Well, the the explanation that is used in court cases. So by the way, the skill the Boer chant was found in court not to be hate speech, according to South African law.

• 20:35Tucker Carlson?

  It's not hate speech. Killing people is not hate speech.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, chanting about killing people.

• 20:38Tucker Carlson?

  You know why it's not hate speech? Because it's not speech they hate. That's why.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Well, maybe that's it.

• 20:43Tucker Carlson?

  They approve of.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  So the arguments that that is used or are used to defend this type of rhetoric would always be something like you need to see it in context, you need to remember the apartheid system, you need to remember what these people went through.

• 20:57Tucker Carlson?

  That they deserve to be killed. You need to remember that.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's well, so the argument is that they're actually commemorating the historic struggle. And that's why they are still chanting this.

• 21:06Tucker Carlson?

  I would disagree with you. I think what they're saying is the people getting murdered deserve to be murdered. So stop complaining about it.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, a few people are saying that out loud, but that that seems to be the same.

• 21:15Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, look, at some point, you know, I don't need you to explain your motive. If I have a clear glimpse of your actions, if I know what you're doing, I don't have to hear you explain why you're doing it. I already know because the motive is displayed in the action. Do you know what I mean?

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 21:32Tucker Carlson?

  So in other words, if I pulled out a gun and shoot you and somebody said, did you not like Ernst?

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:38Tucker Carlson?

  I can say whatever I want, but I just shot you. So I think it's kind of fair to infer that I didn't like you.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the motive is also explained in the words. So they're trying to defend the words. It's the famous story of Chamberlain and Churchill, you know, when Chamberlain came back from meeting Hitler and he said, no, well, I met him and, you know, I think we're going to find peace. And then Churchill said, no, well, I read what he said and I believed him.

• 22:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  And so you can just read what they're saying. If you read the policy documents of the ruling party, they say they want to convert South Africa into a communist society. They want to have a revolution in South Africa. And if you listen to the more radical parties to the left of them, they openly chant about killing white people. So they say these things out loud. It's, it's, and now they are obviously more to the fringe, you find the more extreme rhetoric in South Africa, but, but it's very alarming and how people just rush to their defense all the time.

• 22:31Tucker Carlson?

  Permanent Washington is terrified and distraught by the Trump revolution now in progress, and it is a revolution. And it's unfolding along very familiar lines. The White House is now giving voters what they actually want and what they've wanted for a long time. And that's the one thing that Permanent Washington doesn't want to give them.

• 22:50Tucker Carlson?

  They are working to stop it. Fortunately, our friends at Heritage, the Heritage Foundation in DC are fighting back. They've spent years thinking this through. How do you dismantle Permanent DC, the deep structures underneath everything? How do you train replacements for the bureaucrats getting canned? How do you enact policies that voters actually voted for? Well, now that Biden is gone, Heritage's vision is finally becoming reality and you can help push it forward by going to heritage.org/tucker and making a tax deductible donation. Your gift fuels their American Rescue Plan and helps stop Permanent Washington from crushing it, from strangling it in the cradle. Heritage has been doing this a long time. They've been successful and they're more aggressive now than ever. Their work is worth supporting. Go to heritage.org/tucker to make your gift today. We hope you will.

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• 25:05Tucker Carlson?

  So that's the part that bothers me. Like, I'm not surprised. I'll just, I'll just say it. I'm not surprised at all. I watched what happened in Rhodesia when it became Zimbabwe in 1980, and something identical happened. There was a lot of killing. And they drove it to the bottom rank of nations, the poorest country in the world. And following exactly the same script. I always thought that would happen in South Africa. I wanted to be wrong. Turns out it wasn't. What really bothers me is that the West has allowed this and cheered it on. Because I live in the West, I live in the United States, so like, I don't want to think that my leaders are for killing people on the basis of race, but watching how they've stood by and applauded, Barack Obama's applauded all this stuff.

• 25:50Tucker Carlson?

  It tells you everything about Barack Obama and other American leaders, doesn't it?

• 25:54Speaker 02

  Yes, and, and this brings us back to the 90s. So during the 90s, it was again after the Cold War and the world, and especially the West, was high on ideology and this idea that, you know, the world will become liberal and everyone's going to become like us and everyone in the world is just an American waiting to be liberated and, and we just need to go and liberate them from their own traditional beliefs and so forth. And so it, it really is the case that, that America and many Western countries played a very significant role in creating the South Africa that we have today.

• 26:23Tucker Carlson?

  I'm aware, I'm aware.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  And, and so it's, we, we don't want other people to fix our problems on our behalf. We want to solve our own problems, but you can certainly make the case that, that the West has a moral responsibility towards the people in South Africa.

• 26:36Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, the, the West forced through sanctions boycotts, the change of government that put the ANC in power. So absolutely, in the same way the West has armed Ukraines, they have an obligation to make sure, you know, to at least know what's happening and to be honest about it, not to hide their own, you know, responsibility for the crime.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and so there's this false dichotomy in South Africa or with regard to South Africa, that if you are against what's happening in South Africa now, that means you want the apartheid system. So you have a choice, and this one former judge recently said this, who's retired, he said that we have a choice in South Africa between a moral system that is dysfunctional, which is the current system, or an immoral system that is a functional one, which is the former system. And so the problem is if you criticize what's happening in South Africa now, you get accused of wanting to return to the apartheid system. But the truth is you can reject both. You can say, we don't want the apartheid system and we don't want what's happening in South Africa at the moment. We, we want to govern ourselves, we want freedom. But, but it seems that a lot-

• 27:40Speaker 02

  A lot of people are incapable of making that conclusion or or leaving any room for saying that both these systems are wrong and we need a better system, a system that is much more decentralized, a system in which the various nations who live in South Africa, because South Africa is very big, it's almost as big as Europe, the various nations living in South Africa should just govern themselves. And that's not what's happening in South Africa. And I think it's a worthy cause to pursue.

• 28:07Tucker Carlson?

  So can I, I think I'm hardly an expert on South Africa at all, but I am American. So if I can I just give my overview of what of the different groups in South Africa and you correct me, but just so people following on, because I think it matters for reasons I'll explain. So South Africa, there are basically two big white populations in South Africa historically. They're what we call the Boers, the Afrikaners, who are were religious, basically religious refugees, a mixture of Dutch and French Huguenots, Protestant Dutch, Protestant French, who moved to Southern Africa for reasons of religious liberty. Okay. And then you had the English, who I think were after the Boer War in power.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:50Tucker Carlson?

  Who mostly were there for economic reasons and had, in many cases, passports back to Great Britain. And then you had a couple of different African black groups, the largest of which I think to this day are the Zulus.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:07Tucker Carlson?

  Who, like the Afrikaners, the Boers, and the English, were not native to the area at all. They were newcomers who arrived, I think, just right before the Boers did.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, not long before.

• 29:19Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, this is all true?

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 29:22Tucker Carlson?

  And they, you know, as invading groups often usually do, kind of exterminated the native population who were the, what we would call the Bushmen or.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Koi and the San, as they are also called. Yes.

• 29:34Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so that's my like dumb foreigner overview. Is that roughly true?

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So so just, can I tell you a story from our history?

• 29:43Tucker Carlson?

  I hope you will.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Yes. It's, some people call it the origin story of the Afrikaner people. And it explains a lot about who we are today.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  So we were settled in the Cape, the proto-Africaners, who were still the Dutch, the French, and the Germans. We were then colonized the Cape in, I think, eighteen ten by the British. It was during the Napoleonic Wars.

• 30:02Tucker Carlson?

  When did the Africaners for the Boers first get there?

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Uh, sixteen fifty-two.

• 30:08Tucker Carlson?

  Sixteen fifty-two.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what's hundred and fifty years before the Declaration of Independence or something.

• 30:12Tucker Carlson?

  Wow.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Something like that. Yeah.

• 30:14Tucker Carlson?

  So a long time ago.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so my great-great-great-grandfather, Nicholas Roots, who was the first Roots who came to South Africa, came, uh, more or less the time when George Washington was a teenager. So he was eight years older than George Washington. So, so my family has been in Africa since, you could say, since George Washington, uh, since the time of George Washington.

• 30:37Tucker Carlson?

  Since before the United States was a country.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so the Cape was-

• 30:41Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have another passport?

• 30:42Speaker 02

  No. No, no. I don't, and I'm, I don't really want one.

• 30:46Tucker Carlson?

  Right. And do most Africaners have other passports?

• 30:49Speaker 02

  No, most don't. Yeah. But, but this goes to the story I want to tell you. So, so we were colonized by the British, and you can call them the proto-Africaners then said, you know, we don't want to be governed by anyone else. We want to govern ourselves. And so they opted to move into the interior of South Africa, which was called the Great Track. And they didn't know what they would expect. They said they reject slavery. They want to foster good relations with local tribes, which they did. There were many treaties signed and agreements and so forth.

• 31:19Tucker Carlson?

  And they did not hold slaves?

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Uh, there was slavery in the Cape Colony before that, but when the Great Track, that was around the time of the abolition of slavery, and they also rejected slavery.

• 31:29Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  They explicitly said so. Um, so they then went into the interior, and the leader of the Great Track was a guy called Pietratif.

• 31:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Who went to negotiate with the Zulu King, Dengon. And so he said, what can we do to buy land from you for our people to live? The agreement was they had to return cattle that was stolen by another tribe with a king called Sekonyela. So they went, they retrieved the cattle, they brought it to the Zulu King. The Zulu King Dengon, King Dengon, said to them that, uh, we have to celebrate. So leave your weapons outside the lager, come inside, and we'll have a celebration. During the celebration, at one stage, he chanted "Bulalani abatakati", which means "kill the wizards". So they took Retif and his commando, his group, to a nearby hill, and they slaughtered him. They slaughtered him last because they wanted him to see, they wanted to make sure that he sees his people and his son murdered.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  A few months later, before, so after that, they went on an extermination mission. They killed women and children in the lagers and so forth. A few months later-

• 32:32Tucker Carlson?

  A lager is a group of wagons pulled into a circle?

• 32:34Speaker 02

  Yes, correct, yes. And so, a few months later, his body was found with the treaty on which the Zulu king signed, giving them some land. So they then started a, initiated a punishment commando, a group of three to four hundred men, to counter-attack the Zulus, which eventually led to the Battle of Blood River, one of the most significant battles in our history, where they found themselves completely surrounded. They were about, let's say, four hundred-

• 33:04Tucker Carlson?

  Four hundred boars?

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Yes, surrounded by twelve thousand Zulus. And so they had this wagon, and my great-great-great-grandfather was in that lager, and he was the religious leader. His name is Sardul Salia. So Sardul Salia-

• 33:18Tucker Carlson?

  And what was their religion?

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Christian.

• 33:21Tucker Carlson?

  Dutch Reformed?

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Dutch Reformed, yes. So he said to them, "Listen, we need to make a vow to God", and so he wrote a vow, which they all made, and the vow said that, "We're standing here in front of the God in heaven and earth to make a vow to him that if he protects us in the battle that lies ahead, we will commemorate this day in the years to come as a day of thanksgiving and a Sabbath, and we will also tell our children this story, and we will build a church, and we will make sure that the honor of the victory goes to God and not to us." So they made this vow, and the battle took place, and the result was that not one of the Afrikaners were killed, three thousand Zulus died in that battle.

• 34:03Tucker Carlson?

  Not one was killed?

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. And and so the reason why I'm telling this story is not because not to point to the Zulu people. We have good relations with the Zulu and we've worked with them. This was, of course, the one major battle, but we've had good relations with them over the years. But it just it says something about firstly, why the Afrikaner people are so patriotic. It says something about why we are so attached to African soil and why why we are still religious. We're a very religious community. We have some problems in terms of belief and so forth. But broadly speaking, the Afrikaners are compared to Europe and to compared to some parts of America, still a very religious people. And it also says something about why we are so attached to the country and why we don't want to leave. We we want to stay there because our ancestors have been there for hundreds of years.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  And we fought and died for our our space there, and we've gotten used to it to to a certain extent.

• 34:54Tucker Carlson?

  What's the only country that you have, isn't it?

• 34:56Speaker 02

  Exactly. We we don't have any other country. We it's like we can't go to we can't go back to England. We're not Dutch anymore. Uh, we, you know, some we have, there's a slogan in South Africa that is go back to Holland. But I mean, I've been to Holland. I've been to Amsterdam. It's a beautiful city. But I don't feel like I'm like I'm at home when I go there. It's a beautiful foreign city that I'm attending. We became a people in Africa, which is why we are called the Afrikaners. We named ourselves after the continent. And our language Africans is named after the continent.

• 35:26Tucker Carlson?

  But you're being called invaders by people whose ancestors were also invaders.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, who came from the north of Africa, yes, from from where Cameroon is and so forth. Who came down firstly towards the east of Africa and then along the great lakes, eventually ending ending in South Africa. Yes.

• 35:43Tucker Carlson?

  Um, so I I think it's what you said is really important because I think from the American or the Western perspective, there's this idea that um, the Afrikaners, the Boers are worse. They're the worst whites there, worse than the English.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:59Tucker Carlson?

  The English, by the way, created the concentration camp during the Boer War.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 36:04Tucker Carlson?

  Winston Churchill was there. Uh, and um, kind of behaved pretty dishonorably, I would say, on many, many levels for hundreds of years in South Africa, but that's just my opinion.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 36:14Tucker Carlson?

  But that the Boers are somehow the worst and that they have no right to be there. And I think history suggests something different.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Well, absolutely. So on my mother's side, I descend from the British. My great grandfather fought in the First World War for, for the British. And so in many ways, culturally, we've become very close to the British because of the influence over the years. And I don't think there's friction today between the Afrikaners and, and the British, but it certainly is the case. I mean, the concentration camps were horrible. I, I recently read the Gulag Archipelago and Solzhenitsyn writes in there that the first concentration camps were invented by the Soviets, but that's actually wrong, that the first concentration camps that we know of, of at least this type of concentration camps were during the first, during the Anglo Boer War, where about 30,000 women and children died. But there was a lot of, the, the, the great thing about the Anglo Boer War was that it

• 37:07Speaker 02

  was in many ways a first for the world. It was, some people call it the first international propaganda war because it was in a time when newspapers became popular. So there was this propaganda war in Europe with regard to the Boers, uh, or the Boer War, with a lot of people saying the Boers are Boerish. That's where the word comes from. Evidently, if someone told me that's where the word Boerish comes from, it's, it's to be sort of, you know, very old style and, and, you know, not very sophisticated.

• 37:35Tucker Carlson?

  Rough, yeah.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, rough around the edges. And so there was a lot of propaganda, like the Boers being compared to, to wild hogs and, and things like that.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  But that's okay. The, the word Boer was actually used for a long time as an insult, almost like Jew, like calling someone a Jew. It's like, oh, you're a Boer, a typical Boer. But I mean, we're very proud of that word. It's, it's, it's something that we take pride in.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  It's in many ways, there's some debate about the difference between Boer and Afrikaner, but it's broadly speaking synonymous. But I mean, we're very proud of our history in South Africa and we've become a very sophisticated community with an immense treasure chest of literature, of poetry, of philosophy, all of it in our own language that we did over the last, especially the last hundred years, which of course is under threat now.

• 38:21Tucker Carlson?

  Your language not spoken by anyone else in the world?

• 38:23Speaker 02

  No, it's some, it descends from Dutch.

• 38:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  And so if you spend some time as an Afrikanse person with some Dutch friends, eventually you start to follow, but it's not Dutch anymore. There's been influences by other languages and so forth. So it's, there are people who speak it all over the world because, but that's only because people who have left from, so many people have left from South Africa. Some estimates say it's about a million people, white people who have left South Africa over the last few decades.

• 38:52Tucker Carlson?

  How many are left? How many whites overall in South Africa and how many of them are Afrikaans?

• 38:57Speaker 02

  So, so it's more or less about five million who are left. The Afrikaner community is about 2.7 million. Yeah, and the total population is about 60, just over 60 million.

• 39:08Tucker Carlson?

  And now it looks like you're, as you said, entering some kind of final stage where they'll be, I mean, they've been expelled from a bunch of different African countries, as you know.

• 39:20Tucker Carlson?

  But it sounds like the, the plan is to force them to leave or kill them, or what is the plan exactly?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  So, so Jan Smuts, the famous Boer general who worked with Churchill also famously said that South Africa is a country where the best never happens and the worst never happens. And so we sort of believe that and we hope that the worst outcome is, is an unrealistic outcome. We do know that the most important thing that we need to do now is to be very well organized in terms of our own communities, to be very well connected to each other. You know, there's this whole debate about the individual and the community and philosophy. And we've realized that if you're just an individual, you are completely helpless. If you, if you're not part of a community, if you don't have, if you, if you're not given meaning by the community of which you are a member, you, you just, you're completely helpless against this, the Leviathan, the state.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  So, so we need to be well organized, we need to be armed, we need to have well functioning communities who look after each other, look after the poor, do all the things that the government's supposed to be doing, but also look after our safety. So we drive patrols at night, we're involved with. Tens of thousands of volunteers involved with patrols, looking after our own safety and so forth. But but I think the bigger question here is the future of South Africa. And this is a controversial thing to say, but it's so obvious that it's not sustainable. It's it's not going to work and it's just getting worse. So the only possible solution is not simply to say we need a different party in power, because the underlying foundations

• 40:51Speaker 02

  is still is problematic. The only possible solution is to move toward a system with subsidiary authorities, which could imply something like a republic for the Afrikaner people. It could imply a kingdom for the Zulu people. It could imply different types of authority depending on the community. But South Africa is a country made up of a long list of minorities. Unless, if you look at it from a racial perspective, you can say there's a black minority, a black majority. But the black majority also consists of a variety, as you mentioned, a variety of nations and tribes and so forth.

• 41:23Tucker Carlson?

  And plus massive immigration into your country.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's that's a it's a very serious problem. Yeah, we virtually don't have borders in South Africa.

• 41:30Tucker Carlson?

  Right. And a problem, of course, for the country, but also a demographic fact that it's not as if there's this like monolithic black majority. There are all kinds of different components of the black majority, right?

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:42Tucker Carlson?

  Don't necessarily get along.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:44Tucker Carlson?

  But a lot of Zimbabweans murdered in South Africa.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, this xenophobic violence. Every now and then there's this upsurge in violence against foreigners. So they get accused. What typically happens is people come in from the north, the north of South Africa, like Malawi, Zimbabwe and so forth, Zambia and so forth. And then they work and they accept jobs for lower wages and and a lot of them work really hard.

• 42:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  So that leads to friction because there's very high unemployment in South Africa already. And so it leads to friction within among the local communities. And then every now and then we have this upsurge in. Very, very brutal xenophobic violence. And so, yes, the border is, it's virtually nonexistent, the border to the north of South Africa.

• 42:24Tucker Carlson?

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• 43:10Tucker Carlson?

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• 43:15Tucker Carlson?

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• 43:36Tucker Carlson?

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• 44:19Tucker Carlson?

  That's joyandblokes.com/tucker. Use the code TUCKER. 50% off labs, 20% off supplements. Joy and Blokes. Get your edge back. So what would it look like to have autonomous republics? And is that allowed under your ninety four constitution? I thought there was some provision for that.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Well, it's interesting that you know this, yes. So there's a section in the South African constitution, section two, three, five, that provides for self determination for communities. Now, there's some ambiguity in terms of how to interpret that section, but it is, there is some constitutional provision for that. And so during the nineties, the negotiations for a new South Africa, the more conservative groups who were white and black, who were arguing for self determination were made fun of by the ruling party at the time, the National Party and the ANC, of course, and also some Westerners. This is just backwards. This idea of governing yourself is somehow an old, ancient thing that we should move away from.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  And part of the problem, part of the reason why they were made fun of is the question is, how do you do that practically? And the only way to practically do that is to have areas where people live concentrated, where people form a de facto majority. And there are such areas, like, for example, when you talk about the Zulus and so forth, the Afrikaner people are pretty much dispersed, although there are some areas where we live more concentrated. But there's, for example, and there are some initiatives to get Afrikaners to move closer together. And I think, I think that's a solution that we need to really focus on, is getting the Afrikaners to move closer together.

• 45:53Tucker Carlson?

  So they're clustered in Pretoria, was my understanding.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  The majority, yes. Pretoria and then the Western Cape and the south of the country. And then there's this Orania initiative in the northern Cape.

• 46:04Tucker Carlson?

  So tell us about that. What is Orania?

• 46:06Speaker 02

  So Orania is a cultural community. It's an Afrikaner cultural community. It's fairly small. It's about three thousand people, but it's growing rapidly. It's growing by about twelve to fifteen percent per year. And the idea is like, it's a culture, it's privately owned. It's a community where the Afrikaner culture can survive and flourish. And it has been growing at quite a pace, even though it's from a small base. But the idea is to say, this is an area. We are the majority and we make our own decisions. We make our own laws, we govern ourselves, we make our own decisions in terms of what happens with our tax money, what happens, you know, with our streets, what type of monuments we build.

• 46:44Tucker Carlson?

  Do you murder other people or oppress other people?

• 46:48Tucker Carlson?

  Then why, maybe you have an answer to this.

• 46:52Tucker Carlson?

  A neighborhood, a community of 3,000 people, which is tiny, even by South African standards, has received unrelenting negative media attention in the West. Why is that such a moral crime, such an outrage to have a community like that?

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's bizarre the extent to which Iran has been attacked, especially in the international media. So I spoke with a friend in Europe recently who said to me, "I've only read negative things about Iran, but that's why I like it, because I know who's writing it."

• 47:24Tucker Carlson?

  A lot of us have reached that conclusion.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  And so in South Africa, there are many traditional...

• 47:29Tucker Carlson?

  The lying is, just can I just pause and just say, the lying is unsustainable. When, you know, you open up the New York Times and it's a safe bet that whatever they're telling you is the opposite of the truth, then you've reached a point where it's like, why even have media coverage at that point? You know what I mean?

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. So in South Africa, there are many cultural communities, like Zulu communities, different. Let's say there are many black cultural communities, and when they are reported on by the media, they would say, "This Zulu cultural community so-and-so, or this Pauza cultural community is doing this." But when it's Iran, they say it's a whites-only enclave. That's the term they use, even though it's a cultural community. So black communities can have that.

• 48:07Tucker Carlson?

  But what is that? Why the hostility? And that's true globally, by the way. There's no, any white majority country, there are very few left. Very few left, but they're just suspect because they exist. What is that?

• 48:23Speaker 02

  I think it's underpinned by oikophobia, this idea of just hating your own people and wanting your own people to go down.

• 48:31Tucker Carlson?

  It is strange. I'm not mad at China for being 99% Chinese or whatever. I'm not mad at Burundi for being all black. It just doesn't never even enter my mind. What is that? Why is that? I mean, honestly, I guess now that we can ask questions like this.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:49Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have any idea?

• 48:51Speaker 02

  I honestly think it's underpinned by by an enormous sense of guilt within Western society or the Western world, not knowing how to make sense of the Second World War, and being influenced over decades and centuries by enlightened philosophy that talks about how you are the problem and how, you know, you should have a sense of guilt for who you are, and the idea that that community and identity is a bad thing. But it's not a bad thing if it's someone else.

• 49:22Tucker Carlson?

  Well, not only is it not a bad thing, it's it's required by law. Community and identity, I mean, those are like the buzzwords of the moment.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:30Tucker Carlson?

  But those are, I mean, basically, it's just like, everyone hates whites, including a lot of whites, and I just don't understand that. I'm, I am white, but I'm kind of agnostic on the question. I kind of like all people. I think they're all created by God, but but they're, we're required to pretend this isn't happening, but it is happening. Everybody hates the whites and wants them to die. Where does that come from?

• 49:52Speaker 02

  I think it's primarily a Western thing.

• 49:54Tucker Carlson?

  But what's the what's the root of it? I think it's the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:59Tucker Carlson?

  And by the way, if everyone wanted Malaysians to die or something, I would say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, whatever Malaysia has done through the years, like, you can't attack people on the basis of their Malaysian-ness. That's just wrong. I would say that, and I would mean it, too.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:14Tucker Carlson?

  But it's considered a crime to say that about whites? Like, where does that come from? I'm honestly baffled. Do you have any idea?

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Well, no, I can only speculate. I think some part of this Oikophobia, I honestly think Enlightenment philosophy has played a big role in this. I think the the influence of, you know, ideas about power structures and and, you know, all these stuff that's coming from America, it used to come from Europe.

• 50:38Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe, but the Chinese have an awful lot of power in Asia, and I never heard anybody say you should, like, You know, it's outrageous that, you know, China is 95% Han or something. It's not even a thing. It's something about what, well, as they say in our universities, whiteness.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:52Tucker Carlson?

  Is uniquely offensive.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:55Tucker Carlson?

  It's uniquely, and I don't think that's a product of enlightenment philosophy because, I mean, that was, this is a new thing. This is post-war. The Second World War did this in some way that I don't fully understand. I don't understand at all, actually.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  I, I think, so, so, um, Elizabeth McIntyre has a, has a, an explanation of how to make sense of what, how, how we, how we derailed in trying to make sense of the Second World War. I mean, obviously, you know, Hitler was evil and all of that. I mean, no one disagrees with that.

• 51:21Tucker Carlson?

  Obviously.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  But, so, so the wrong lesson from the Second World War is that nationalism is evil. Or a sense of pride in your identity is evil. And there are a lot of people who would really like us to believe this, that we need to abolish communal identities. Um, McIntyre's line.

• 51:37Tucker Carlson?

  Only when they're white.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yeah, of course.

• 51:40Tucker Carlson?

  It's actually, I don't think anyone thought the lesson of the war was that nationalism is evil, only that nationalism when whites do it.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, when whites do it, yeah. So McIntyre's line is that, that a, a sense of communal identity and pursuing what is good for your people is a good. And what went wrong with the Second World War was that Hitler was trying to pursue this good at the expense of all other goods. He was detaching this one thing from everything else. And in the, and you cannot do that without committing evil and inflicting evil. And, and so, uh, I, I think it's, it's a bizarre situation where we are in currently, but.

• 52:14Tucker Carlson?

  So I thought and think that the lesson of the Second World War was that targeting people for violence and discrimination, but especially violence on the basis of their immutable genetic characteristics was wrong. Like, that's what I was taught.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  It's inherently evil.

• 52:31Tucker Carlson?

  I believe that now, as much as I've ever believed it. And, but it's just crazy to see people say that on the one hand, and then. For a lot of people, a lot of our leaders, the lesson of the Second World War was, no, that's good.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:45Tucker Carlson?

  Actually, you need to target more people on the basis of their immutable ethnic characteristics, their whiteness.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 52:51Tucker Carlson?

  And kill them. That's the lesson? No, that's the opposite lesson.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:56Tucker Carlson?

  Right?

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. Well, also in South Africa, and this is part of the bizarre part of it, is the ruling party in South Africa, they would write in their own, in their own policy documents. They say, "Our ideology is a blend of race nationalism and socialism." That's literally what Nazi means. Now, I'm not saying they're Nazis, but in some sense, they're calling themselves Nazis. If they say, "We promote a combination of race nationalism and socialism."

• 53:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I don't think people can hear themselves. I mean, I think even this conversation will be like, "Oh, that's a Nazi conversation." It's like, no, no, no. We're arguing, or I'll speak for myself, I'm arguing against what I thought the core idea was, or the core bad idea in the Second World War, which is that you should attack people, hurt people because of how they were born.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Based on who they are.

• 53:44Tucker Carlson?

  Always been opposed to that. I will always be opposed to that. But now it's like complaining about it makes, I don't know, it's all so...

• 53:53Speaker 02

  You're not even allowed to say this, Ash.

• 53:54Tucker Carlson?

  It's also fake. It's also fake. Like, it's actually, this is all a cover for something much more sinister that is not really related to the Second World War. Like, I just don't think, because it doesn't make any sense. As an intellectual exercise, you just like immediately hit a brick wall.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 54:08Tucker Carlson?

  Like, what you're saying is nonsensical. Right?

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's difficult to make sense of it because it's completely irrational.

• 54:16Tucker Carlson?

  It's completely irrational. Therefore, I think it's a lie, because it doesn't even, like, you don't even, I don't have especially high IQ, and it's super obvious to me that it doesn't make any sense. So like, what, really? I guess there's no answer. I don't know the answer, but there's something very deep going on here where the leaders of every country in the world all of a sudden decide this one ethnic group needs to be killed. Like, what?

• 54:40Speaker 02

  I think one part of it is something that you've said before, which is affluence. The people, people in the Western world have become very affluent, and unfortunately, as a result of that, very self-centered. And in many ways, they've become disconnected from their communities, disconnected from, from their tradition and so forth.

• 54:57Tucker Carlson?

  There's no doubt about that. But I mean, I, you know, spent a lot of time in the, in the Gulf, in the Persian Gulf. The most affluent countries in the world per capita, I think, I mean, they are. And, you know, whatever you think of them, you don't see a lot of Arab leaders being like, we really were too Arab. That's the problem where I hate myself for my Arabness. Like, that doesn't even occur to them, to their great credit, by the way. I don't think self hatred is ever good. I don't think hating anybody in the base of race is ever good.

• 55:27Tucker Carlson?

  It's, it's only this one group.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:29Tucker Carlson?

  That does it.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  I'd like to believe, and I hope that I'm right, that it's, it's a minority within the Western world that really believes this stuff.

• 55:36Tucker Carlson?

  I think.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  But they have significant power and influence.

• 55:39Tucker Carlson?

  Boy, do they.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  They are the editors of newspapers, they are the prime ministers, they are professors at universities and so forth. And those are the people who's promoting this type of idea, when I think most hardworking, ordinary people don't fall for this.

• 55:52Tucker Carlson?

  Well, certainly most authentic Christians reject it out of hand immediately.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  It's essentially anti-Christian in many ways.

• 55:59Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it is the definition of anti-Christian, I, I think. I mean, that's my, look, what do I know? Don't take theology advice from me, but that's certainly my truest, deepest belief, that it's, this is immoral, you know, no matter who it's done to.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 56:13Tucker Carlson?

  So one, I should have said this at the outset, but one of the reasons there's been this real change in people's willingness in the West to talk about what's happening in South Africa in an honest way, not with the false pieties of Desmond Tutu was so great, whatever Desmond, you know, you think of Desmond Tutu, not much. But, um, but we were required to talk about South Africa in a very specific way and to repeat certain cliches at really at gunpoint.

• 56:40Tucker Carlson?

  And that's changed in the past couple of months, and it's really changed due to a South African emigre called Elon Musk. This is my perspective, you tell me yours, but he has made it possible through X, but also through statements he's made on X, to say the obvious, which is this is a crime against a beleaguered minority and that, you know, this is racism against human beings and it's wrong. Um. What? Do you feel that?

• 57:05Speaker 02

  Yes, so I don't know how much of what is in his biography by Isaacson is true, but it does seem from his biography that he's had some bad experiences growing up in South Africa, which is unfortunate. And we were, we're still not sure quite how attached he still is to South Africa as a country, but looking at his ex and his comments, it's very clear that he's interested. And the strange thing is, even though some people are very angry with him for speaking about South Africa, the only thing that he's really doing is he's picking up a mirror and he's saying, "Look at what's happening in South Africa." And he's just, he's retweeting videos from rallies in South Africa.

• 57:43Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  He's literally just saying to people, "Look at this stuff that's happening in South Africa."

• 57:48Tucker Carlson?

  No, what do you think of this? Are you okay with this?

• 57:50Speaker 02

  No, no, I think, well, a lot of people, I think, I can speak for a lot of people in saying that we're really, really grateful for what Elon Musk is doing to shed light on what is happening in South Africa.

• 58:00Tucker Carlson?

  It must be so weird to live in a country that has received so much attention from Western media, so much attention. I mean, there's no other country in Africa where your average American knows the name of three famous people. You know what I mean? There's not even close. Name three famous people from, you know, Congo. No, you know? But every American knows about Nelson Mandela, probably Woody Mandela, Desmond Tutu.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  Jan Smits was also very big, who became this Boer general who was an advisor to Churchill.

• 58:31Tucker Carlson?

  And joined the English in the, I think in the First World War, like right, you know?

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Yes, First and Second World War.

• 58:37Tucker Carlson?

  Right, but the First World was, you know, not even 15 years after the Boer War. So that was a pretty remarkable decision that he made. I don't think most people are that in tune, but

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 58:47Tucker Carlson?

  they know the big outlines, but of what happened post 94, and they know all about apartheid and all that. But it must be so weird to be living in this country where all this stuff is happening and nobody is saying anything about it.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's crazy. It really is. And I have to say, the last few months has been quite a ride in terms of what we, you know, the executive order signed by President Trump and statements coming from the US.

• 59:15Tucker Carlson?

  Tell us about that executive order, if you don't mind.

• 59:17Speaker 02

  So the executive order is a very strong reprimanding of what the South African government is doing. It says that the South African government is, well, as Trump said, is treating certain sections of society very badly.

• 59:30Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, that's probably a call. That's the Trumpiest thing ever said.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  And the US will not stand for this. And so it boils down to sanctions in an important way, which is not, and one part of it says that they will grant refugee status to Afrikaners if they want to go to the US, which I don't think, in all fairness, we're really grateful for the public stance taken by the US. And in a certain sense, they haven't gone far enough, but in a certain sense, I don't think the granting of refugee status is much of a solution. Some people will take that up, but that's why I told you the story of the Battle of Blood River and the vow. We are culturally very, very attached to South Africa.

• 1:00:18Tucker Carlson?

  I think your family got to South Africa around the time my family got to the United States.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  Hundreds of years.

• 1:00:24Tucker Carlson?

  This is my country.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  I think I'm ninth generation.

• 1:00:27Tucker Carlson?

  I also have a mother of English descent, and I'm also, unlike you, I'm ashamed of it. Sorry, just kidding. Sort of, not really. But, but, you know, of course, I mean, it's your country. I mean, what, at that point, what, you know?

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  So I think, I think what a better response from the US could be is to take a firm stance against what is happening in terms of what the South African government is doing, but then to say, how can the US support minority groups in South Africa who are really working for some form of self-determination? I think America should recognize that it does have... Have part in the problem in terms of what happened historically.

• 1:01:08Tucker Carlson?

  Are you kidding? Yes, it does. Big time.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  Yes, and therefore it's reasonable and I think it's fair and I'm hesitant to say this because I'm not an American. But I think it's reasonable to say that America has some form of a moral responsibility. Not to fix South Africa, but at least to try to rework this mess that has been created because it was involved in creating this mess.

• 1:01:29Tucker Carlson?

  We've mobilized our State Department to defend, quote, "trans rights in the Donbass." Okay, we've waded into every sectarian conflict in this world for the past 80 years. Yeah, I think we can certainly say that a minority group targeted for genocide in a country we've been involved in really intimately for my entire life. That that group has a right not to be killed and to have some measure of self-determination. I think we can do that. That's not too big of a deal, right?

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the solution, I would say the most sustainable solution is to help such communities to govern themselves, to have self-determination. And it's not only, obviously it would be in our interest, but I think it's also in the interest of the West and of America.

• 1:02:09Tucker Carlson?

  Well, just on principle, like every other group in the world has the right to its own homeland except white people? Like, what?

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:15Tucker Carlson?

  Like, tell me, just explain to me how that makes sense. Either no group has the right, or every group has the right. It's really that simple. And if you want to say no group has the right, okay. You might even convince me. I don't know. I'm not a race guy, actually, by my temperament at all. I'd kind of like to ignore it. But as long as some groups have a right to self-determination, then every group has a right. It's that simple. And if there's a special carve-out where one group doesn't have a right, you have to explain to me why that group doesn't have that right.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:02:42Tucker Carlson?

  Is that fair?

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  No, it's absolutely fair. Well, I think South Africa is a...

• 1:02:46Tucker Carlson?

  What? I mean, what the hell is, why are we playing along with this nonsense?

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, this narrative has become this massive stream that is turned into rapids on a river. That just pulls everyone along and this narrative just says if you're white, then there's inherently something wrong with you.

• 1:03:02Tucker Carlson?

  It doesn't make any sense and it's leading toward a really bad conclusion, obviously, as it has for... Every other group targeted in this way has really suffered and there are a lot of them, okay? It's not, you know, there are a lot of them.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:03:17Tucker Carlson?

  And it never ends up well. And I just don't know why we're playing along where you're not even allowed to say, oh, you haven't been. I don't care anymore, obviously. But again, either every group has right to self-determination or no group does. You can't have this system where, you know, some groups do or all groups do but one. No, no, no, it's all or nothing on this.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I can guarantee.

• 1:03:40Tucker Carlson?

  Tell me how I'm wrong.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  No, well, I can guarantee you that that when I get back home, I'm going to be in a lot of trouble for this interview.

• 1:03:47Tucker Carlson?

  It's I don't know why, though. I mean, like, what's the what's the counter argument? I don't I don't really get it. Like, what is the counter argument? There's only one group on the entire face of the planet that doesn't have the right that every other group has? Like, tell me how.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  It's it's it's.

• 1:04:01Tucker Carlson?

  No, I mean, like, what's it? Maybe there's a good answer. I'm waiting for it.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  No, well, we don't know what the answer is.

• 1:04:06Tucker Carlson?

  So there is no answer. And so because there is no answer, the way that uniformity is maintained is just through threats, like, shut up. You're a bad person for saying that. You're a Nazi. It's like, no, no, I hate the Nazis. I'm gonna speak for myself. I hate the Nazis.

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:04:20Tucker Carlson?

  I hate the idea that people are attacked for something they can't control, like how they're born. Their genetics. I just don't believe in that. I never will. I'm a Christian. I don't believe in it. So you can call me whatever you want. I'm actually making the opposite case. And I haven't done anything to be ashamed of. And if defending the right of people not to be murdered because of how they were born is a crime, then I'll plead to it.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:04:42Tucker Carlson?

  But I actually think that the only thing that people currently in charge of most of the world, certainly of the West, are good at is seizing the moral high ground. And they don't deserve it. They haven't earned it. They're rotten. Their ideas are rotten. And they don't deserve to lecture the rest of us about our moral inferiority while they're endorsing the murder of people for how they were born. Sorry.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  It's a house of cards, yeah.

• 1:05:05Tucker Carlson?

  What is a house of cards? It's exactly right.

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's it's built and it's it's a very shining house of cards and it's very proud of its accomplishments, but it's not sustainable. So South Africa has been a victim of Western imperialism.

• 1:05:19Tucker Carlson?

  I'm aware.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  In many ways, ideologically currently, ideological imperialism, but also.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  But, and this is interesting, the ANC that's governing South Africa today was founded just after the unionization of South Africa in 1910. And they said that this, this was one of the major triggers that sparked us to start this movement. And the unionization was after the Boer War, before the Union. South Africa was a, a variety of different republics and colonies.

• 1:05:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Governing themselves. And unionization effectively meant that all of these different subsidiary authorities were combined into one big South Africa as we know it today. The borders of South Africa were actually drawn pretty much by the British in, in 1910. And the ANC were vehemently opposed.

• 1:06:03Tucker Carlson?

  They have a long history of border drawing, I notice.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  Yes. You see this when you have these completely straight borders. And you know, that's, that's artificial, but, um, and so the borders we have for South Africa today was a product of Western imperialism. And now those in power would love, very much like to maintain these borders because they have control. And, and so if we are truly anti-colonialism and anti-imperialist, we should, we should return to a position where people govern themselves. We should rethink the borders.

• 1:06:31Tucker Carlson?

  You'll never be allowed to do that. I mean, let's just cut right to the, the no BS part of this. That will not be allowed. It's never been allowed. You will need either to get to force, which I pray you don't, because I hate that. I hate killing. Or you will need the assistance of a powerful outside force that, that makes it happen. That's just a fact. Is that fair to say?

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I think it's fair to say. I mean.

• 1:06:56Tucker Carlson?

  Right. So anyone who says, I want to kill you, you know, kill the boar, you're subhuman. Those are not people who are going to say, yeah, yeah, go ahead and create your own independent state and not bother anybody because you're going to be way more successful and prosperous than they are. And they're going to hate you on the base of envy, of course. It's already happening.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  And we have to ask them nicely to make certain concessions.

• 1:07:18Tucker Carlson?

  Right. Now, I get it's not going to happen. So, so what is your plan?

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  Well, I think the the plan is to to firstly to be well organized communities uh in to have a very strong sense of community, a sense of pride in who we are, to remain Christian uh and have a strong faith, um strong family ties and so forth, that's where it starts. And then other than that, the second step, you might say, the plan is to to just create certain realities on ground level. So it's one thing to say, you know, we want more authority or more self determination, but you have to, in a sense, create that um so that what you have created can be recognized. Uh it's there's no point in saying, well, you guys can have your own place, but that place doesn't exist. So so I think I think what the Afrikaner people need to do is is in a large, to a large extent, build their

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  own self determination. And I think that that's what we intend to do, but it would help a lot if we can get recognition for this pursuit as a legitimate pursuit.

• 1:08:16Tucker Carlson?

  So you don't think, I I sort of just didn't ask you to pause, I should have. You you began this segment of the conversation by saying the current scheme, the current arrangement is not going to work.

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:08:28Tucker Carlson?

  Um, I think most people, certainly I as an outsider, instinctively kind of want it to work.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  Well, it's a good story. It sounds like a good story.

• 1:08:37Tucker Carlson?

  It's a good story. Yeah, it is. I mean, I'll I'll admit to being kind of a dopey liberal in some ways. I really prefer the idea of, you know, people living together in harmony. It's just I just feel that way. I can't help it. Maybe that's my enlightenment legacy or something. Um, I also think you should deal with reality, and I definitely don't think you should be allowed to kill people because of the way they look, period. So by the way, how did these people, why did they go on TV like they're on the right side? They're like endorsing genocide. Like, I don't underst- I don't understand how they've been allowed to get away with being on Winnie Mandela's side and feeling self righteous. I just don't get that. I think it's disgusting. Whatever I said that five times, I can't say it enough. But.

• 1:09:20Tucker Carlson?

  How do you know it won't work? Like ANC obviously is a criminal gang, totally incompetent. You don't have electricity a lot of the time. Like it's not working. They're just stealing everything. Got it. Stealing the copper out of the wires. But there's not another political coalition that could run it effectively?

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  No. So you mentioned electricity. In Johannesburg, the mayor just a few days ago announced that people should just wait seven days and then they will have water. So it's not just an electricity problem. There's a water problem as well.

• 1:09:48Tucker Carlson?

  Water problem. You're gonna have a food problem at some point.

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  Well, if the farmers are targeted, yes. So there are many reasons why it's not working and why it won't work. And well, everything you can think of points to that direction. One is just the data. As I said, like you can look at the levels of how crime is increasing, how unemployment is increasing, how government service delivery is increasingly failing. Everything, everything. I honestly, how health is deteriorating. Everything except tax collection. That's one aspect of it. Another aspect of it is just the extent to which people in South Africa are turning their back on politics. There's this political vacuum in South Africa and you can see it, for example, with the extent to which people have stopped voting, how voter turnout has dropped significantly

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  in elections. People just don't want interested. They vote reluctantly, those who do. So that's one aspect of it.

• 1:10:41Tucker Carlson?

  Interesting.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  Even so.

• 1:10:43Tucker Carlson?

  Why do you think that? Because they feel hopeless?

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  Because they feel the political establishment is completely disconnected. They don't, it doesn't resonate with them. They don't, people vote for parties even though they don't really like them, but they think this is of all the parties, I don't like any of them, but this one is the least bad, so I'll vote for that one. So there's a complete disconnect between the politicians or the political elite in South Africa, even the opposition parties and the people. And so there's this political vacuum that has developed and this vacuum is filled, as my friend Aaron Stansel in South Africa says, either by the good guys or the bad guys. It's filled by the bad guys in terms of organized crime. So we have these mafias and gangs coming to the fore with significant power and to such an extent that the government is afraid of them. Or it can be.

• 1:11:29Tucker Carlson?

  That is the story globally, isn't it?

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, uh, yeah, I think it is.

• 1:11:33Tucker Carlson?

  The drug cartels are one of the most powerful governments in the world, and they're not even a government.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  It's it's incredible. Yeah. So we have a construction mafia, for example. If you were, if you build a shopping center, the construction mafia turns up and they tell you you need to employ our people or else we're gonna sabotage your building and and stuff like that. And it's it's a regular thing.

• 1:11:50Tucker Carlson?

  And you can't fight them.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  No, you can't. You you can't fight them. Um, and but the vacuum can be filled by the good guys, and that's well organized communities who who take control of what is important to them. And so the future is very, and that's what analysts and scenario analysts and so forth have been saying, that the future is one of deterioration, where you will have communities who are who will be much worse off than they are today because of the bad guys filling the void, and you might have flourishing communities because of good guys filling the void. Um, and and so that's another reason, but I think the most important fundamental underlying reason why it's not sustainable is it's a political system

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  that is detached from the reality in South Africa. The reality is the distance from Cape Town, the south to the north of South Africa is the distance from Rome to London. So it's it's a big country, uh, number one, but it's not homogeneous by any means. It's very diverse.

• 1:12:46Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  Eleven official languages.

• 1:12:47Tucker Carlson?

  Right. It's not just, just to restate, it's not just black and white at all.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, it's certainly not. There's this Indian community, there's what we call colored community in South Africa, and there are various different tribes, you could say, or or cultural communities within, among black South Africans and among white South Africans. So it's very diverse, different languages, different cultures. There's a in and and now we have this political system that just says you have individual rights. And and in some ways, the constitution, oh, even though it was very much celebrated when it was adopted, it was called the best constitution in the world and the most liberal, most democratic and so forth. The constitution says.

• 1:13:24Tucker Carlson?

  Guarantees everything, but you get nothing.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. That's exactly. So we have what they call third generation rights, first, second, and third. It's a very vast network of rights that you have in theory. Um, and but but then the question is, so there's this idea that the highest authority is the constitution. But it's not possible for a written document to have the highest authority. The highest authority is with the person who gets to interpret it. So.

• 1:13:49Tucker Carlson?

  So boy, is that true. So then.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  So for example, section twenty five of the constitution in South Africa, which the government is trying to change. It's a private property rights clause. They want to change it. But currently it says the government can expropriate your property if it's in the public interest. Now, if you ask me as a Westerner, when is it in public interest to expropriate property? It would be something like they have to build a big highway or maybe there's a military emergency or something like that. If you ask one of, if you ask a judge who is founded in this ideology we've just spoken of, they would say it's in the public interest for white people not to own land. So, so it's, it's a question of interpretation. You can have a wonderful document, but it boils down to how do you interpret it? And so, and that's why I'm saying it's, it's not compatible with, with realities on ground level.

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  And, you know, we can, and there's, there've been many lawfare in South Africa, many, many, many. South Africa is a very good example of political court cases and we've won many and we've lost many. But it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a ship that is sinking.

• 1:14:49Tucker Carlson?

  That's the fact. Well, and it all seems fake. I mean, it seems like, and I, again, one of the reasons I'm so fascinated by your country is I think it's, it's on a trajectory that I recognize as an American. So you have these legacy institutions that sort of go through the Kabuki of dispensing justice, but it's not justice, actually. It's totally disconnected from justice. It doesn't mean anything.

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:15:10Tucker Carlson?

  And you, you have this constitution, which is beautiful, which is, you know, ignored. The only power resides in the people who interpret it, as you said.

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:20Tucker Carlson?

  And so then you reach kind of the endpoint or the most recent endpoint, which is the idea that whites can't own land. Can you explain this?

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Yes. So they have been trying to change the South African constitution, the property rights clause, to empower the government to expropriate private property without compensation. That's the buzzword.

• 1:15:36Tucker Carlson?

  Just, just steal the land.

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's, it's, they call it E W C. It's expropriation without compensation, but it's confiscation of property. That's what it is.

• 1:15:43Tucker Carlson?

  Well, how is expropriation without compensation different from stealing?

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  No, exactly. But.

• 1:15:48Tucker Carlson?

  It's just shoplifting. I mean, what?

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  It's, it's flabbergasting to see the extent to which, again, academics and analysts and journalists are rushing to the defense of the South African. African government.

• 1:15:59Tucker Carlson?

  In South Africa there?

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  Yes. So he he is one of the many bizarre things that they would say. They would say this is all a lie. You guys are lying. It's not expropriation without compensation. It's expropriation with compensation, but compensation can be nil. So it can be zero compensation.

• 1:16:15Tucker Carlson?

  So it's not happening, but it's a good thing that it is.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it. That's exactly it.

• 1:16:18Tucker Carlson?

  As always, right.

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  And and so the the president has just signed the expropriation bill in South Africa, which is now which they now all.

• 1:16:25Tucker Carlson?

  He signed it?

• 1:16:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so um and and and so there's still an attempt to change the constitution. And there's now a new bill in in um uh in process. It was just announced, I think, a week ago that they want to pass through parliament. That says that eighty percent of that's what it boils down to. That eighty percent of land or property in South Africa must be owned by black people. So because it says it must be racially representative. And so I I want to tell you a quick story about this because it sort of highlights the ideology. I I was at a land summit in South Africa. And a spokesperson for the Department of Land Reform spoke. And it was very clear from his speech that the problem is white people owning land. It was a racial thing. It was very clear.

• 1:17:07Speaker 02

  But it's it's it's colored with words like restitution and and correcting historic injustices and so forth. And so I asked him at this summit, I said, so give here's an example. And I I what would the government's position be on this? The example is a white guy owns a farm. The government takes it from him to correct historic injustices. And they give it to a black guy, and it's a black farmer. And maybe a year or two down the line, this black farmer decides he doesn't want to be a farmer anymore. He wants to sell his land. And the buyer is white. And now there's a white farmer again. What what's the government's position on this? And the spokesperson for the department says, in that case, the correction of the injustice has been reversed.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  It's completely bizarre.

• 1:17:54Tucker Carlson?

  What's interesting is we've seen this exact movie frame by frame, right next door in Zimbabwe, formerly Rhodesia, which was one of the most prosperous countries in Africa, one of the big tobacco producers in Africa.

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  It's very sad what happened to that country.

• 1:18:09Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's shocking, but it's again, it's, you know, like organized government sponsored racism doesn't work. And I don't care how often the New York Times defends it, it's always the same. And that is like right next door to you and you have a refugee crisis in your country because of it.

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  Well, our government, our ruling.

• 1:18:29Tucker Carlson?

  So what do they say to that?

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  No, they say that Robert Mugabe is a hero and that ZANU PF, the party, is a good party and it's a liberation force and we respect them.

• 1:18:39Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. So again, no one wants to use the term, but this is, this is genocide. I mean, that's what that is. It's like targeting a group of people for extinction, elimination on the basis of immutable characteristics. Like, I don't know what, is there another genocide, genocide definition? I'm not aware of.

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  Well, I think, I think you can say there are threats, threats of that happening. There's not a genocide happening in South Africa.

• 1:19:02Tucker Carlson?

  No, I'm not saying there is. I'm saying that's where it's going. Like, what's the other endpoint here?

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Well, yes.

• 1:19:08Tucker Carlson?

  You're not human, you can't own land, you should be killed. What am I missing?

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  And, yeah, if you own land by definition, that's illegitimate, regardless of whether you bought the land. It doesn't matter how you got the land.

• 1:19:18Tucker Carlson?

  Because of your race.

• 1:19:19Speaker 02

  Because of your race, yes.

• 1:19:20Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. If we can't say that's wrong, then, you know, anyone who can't say that's wrong, anyone who makes excuses for that is a dangerous person. I don't know what else to say. Put another group in there. I don't care what group it is.

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  So the ANC in South Africa wanted to, they have this process of name changes. And by the way, this targeting of statues came from South Africa. It's happening in America. It started in South Africa, you know, burning down statues and so forth. So, and they've had this long process of name changes. And, and one thing they wanted to, to change this street in which the US embassy is in South Africa to Fidel Castro Avenue. That's one story. The other one is they wanted to change one of the main streets in Pretoria to name it after Mao Zedong. And then some of the opposition parties said, are you crazy? Do you know what Mao Zedong did? And the response was, remember Mao was never convicted of any crime.

• 1:20:11Tucker Carlson?

  I say, it does seem not only like one of the worst governments in the world, but one of the dumbest also.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Well, I think there's some explanation as to why the South African government has gone so off the rails, and it's that they've gotten a free pass for decades.

• 1:20:30Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  Because of this narrative, they could do and say whatever they want, they got no criticism, or very little criticism, or very careful criticism. And that's why I think they've gone so ballistic after the recent comments by Trump and people like Elon Musk and so.

• 1:20:45Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, have they? I'm sorry, I don't follow it that closely. Have they, those comments were noticed in South Africa?

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, absolutely, yeah. It's the biggest story in South Africa at the moment.

• 1:20:53Tucker Carlson?

  Really? And what are they saying?

• 1:20:55Speaker 02

  Well, they're saying that we've, the organizations that I was involved with at the time have committed treason, that we've been charged for treason.

• 1:21:02Tucker Carlson?

  You've been charged with treason?

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:04Tucker Carlson?

  For what?

• 1:21:04Speaker 02

  For speaking, well, among others, for me speaking with you about what's happening.

• 1:21:09Tucker Carlson?

  That's treason?

• 1:21:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's bad mouthing your country. That's the argument.

• 1:21:13Tucker Carlson?

  Damn.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  So I don't know if it was this, one of the opposition parties who filed the charges.

• 1:21:18Tucker Carlson?

  I wanted to go to Cape Town for Christmas, just on vacation. I didn't have time in the end, but.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  You'll have to put on shades.

• 1:21:24Tucker Carlson?

  Probably shouldn't go, is that what you're saying?

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  No, no, you should come to South Africa. No, you should definitely come.

• 1:21:29Tucker Carlson?

  Funny.

• 1:21:30Speaker 02

  I don't know if there's gonna, much will come from the treason charges, but that's certainly.

• 1:21:34Tucker Carlson?

  But you've been charged with treason?

• 1:21:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, there were official complaints filed at the police, yes, yes.

• 1:21:40Tucker Carlson?

  What's the penalty for treason in South Africa?

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  It would be imprisonment. We don't have the death, we don't have the death penalty.

• 1:21:46Tucker Carlson?

  No, they just, it's neck or shoe. It's informal.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  Well, I'm honestly, seriously, I'm more concerned if the question's about safety, about mob justice in South Africa than the actual government coming after you.

• 1:22:00Tucker Carlson?

  Of course. So what does that look like?

• 1:22:05Speaker 02

  We, I think you reported on this in twenty, two thousand and twenty one, I think when there was this massive riots in South Africa, um, when they just

• 1:22:13Tucker Carlson?

  In Durban.

• 1:22:14Speaker 02

  In Durban, and then it

• 1:22:15Tucker Carlson?

  I remember that.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it sort of spilled out to Gauteng, to Johannesburg, to a lesser extent. Um, and it's just people, it's almost like, you know, smelling blood and becoming extremely violent and people join in by the thousands.

• 1:22:27Tucker Carlson?

  I've, I've seen that with my own eyes a couple of times.

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:31Tucker Carlson?

  It's really scary.

• 1:22:32Speaker 02

  So someone, a friend from Europe once asked me, are you not afraid that the government's gonna come to your house and take your stuff? And, and my honest answer is not that much. I'm more concerned about a mob showing up at my house.

• 1:22:44Tucker Carlson?

  So then what do you do?

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  Well, if, if you are alone, you can't do anything. Um, if you're a well-functioning, well-organized community, then the community, you can call people on the radio, you can, you can get the community to take a stance. Um, and I think, I think that's one of the

• 1:22:58Tucker Carlson?

  So you don't get lynched?

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:23:00Tucker Carlson?

  You got a lot of lynchings and so, I mean, that's, again, add it to the irony file. I mean, South Africa is like the world capital of lynching.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:23:08Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I noticed, yeah.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  It's, it's not so much white people who are targeted.

• 1:23:11Tucker Carlson?

  I'm aware, no, of blacks.

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that certainly, it has happened in the previous dispensation. It's still happening to an extent, not as much as in the past, but people don't know that it's still happening, um.

• 1:23:23Tucker Carlson?

  To people accused of crimes and

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's partly due to the fact that the police is absent.

• 1:23:27Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:23:27Speaker 02

  So especially in townships, someone is a rapist and the police doesn't show up, doesn't do anything, and then the local community just deals with him. Um, that type of thing happens in

• 1:23:38Tucker Carlson?

  In a very brutal way.

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Yeah, it does happen in a brutal way.

• 1:23:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, um, yeah, I, I've noticed, like, pretty shocking, like, almost like I wouldn't wanna describe it.

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mentioned the necklace murders before, so we, we have that, and it's the same with the xenophobic violence, it's It's very unfortunate. And if we had a well functioning police service, maybe that would have helped, but we don't. So in South Africa, we can check the numbers. I'm pretty sure the private security sphere in South Africa is almost as big as private security in America, but America is much larger. Private security in South Africa is more than double the police and the army combined. If you add the police and the army up together and you multiply it by two, private security is the amount of private security officers in South Africa or security guards is

• 1:24:28Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have the right of self-defense, the right to defend yourself and your family?

• 1:24:33Speaker 02

  We do have the right to self-defense. We can own firearms, although it's not as easy as in America.

• 1:24:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:24:37Speaker 02

  But you can, you can do that. You can get arms, especially through a private security company. You can, there's some room to make sure that you can protect yourself.

• 1:24:46Tucker Carlson?

  And does it work?

• 1:24:47Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. In terms of the farm murders, we've seen that statistically, that, that in communities where areas or communities where people are well organized, where they have radios, where they drive patrols, where they are trained, there's a decrease in farm murders. You can clearly see that. Actually, in the last few years, the farm murder numbers have come down a bit. And it's not because, because the, the incitement has gotten better. It's not because the police is more efficient. It's because local communities have become much more involved with their own safety. And so that's certainly one of the most important building blocks of this.

• 1:25:24Tucker Carlson?

  So what, now that the president, I'm using air quotes to get around president, I mean, the whole system is fake, obviously. It doesn't affect justice. It doesn't improve the lives of its citizens. It's a no sense illegitimate government. And by the way, it's not the only illegitimate government in the world. But, um, but anyway, what happens when they try, the government tries to put this law into effect, to try and act on it? You know, the government shows up at your house, you can't, you know, you've lived in the same plot for a hundred years. You can't have it because you're white, we're taking it. Like, what happened? Do people comply?

• 1:25:59Speaker 02

  No, no, people won't comply. No, we, I mean, that's partly why I told this story at the beginning is the Afrikaner people and the farmers are very stubborn. This, in Afrikaans, we say hardkopje, hard-headed. So this idea-

• 1:26:12Tucker Carlson?

  Well, farmers, you have to be stubborn to be a farmer in the first place.

• 1:26:15Speaker 02

  Yes, and especially a farmer in South Africa.

• 1:26:17Tucker Carlson?

  Why aren't you in private equity? I mean, it's easier.

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. So it's, it's, it's a common trope among farmers to say that I would rather die on my farm than to hand it over to the government. And, and so I think if they really try to act on it, which they haven't tried, there are, there are land invasions in South Africa, but it's not so much the government, it's mobs and gangs and so forth invading people's land. But if they really try to act on these attempts at expropriation, there's going to be a massive backlash. And that's, there's no doubt. So what they would say is, this is actually what the government says, that, that we need to do what happened in Zimbabwe, but without violence. But that, that's how they would argue it.

• 1:26:58Tucker Carlson?

  They actually say we need to do what happened in Zimbabwe?

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this time without violence.

• 1:27:02Tucker Carlson?

  That's one of the worst crimes of my lifetime.

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, they, they say it publicly. Yeah, you can find it online. And, and so the, the argument is, but, but we are, we're going to do it a bit better, we're going to do it without violence. But what that means is, we're going to do what happened in Zimbabwe and you are not going to resist. That's what it means. But obviously, people will resist when they try to do that. There's, there's no doubt about it. But I do think the government is very incompetent. You know, they have these very radical ideas. I, I don't know if they have the competency, competency to actually go through with these ideas.

• 1:27:33Tucker Carlson?

  That's the upside. I lived in Washington DC almost my whole life. And that was absolutely true there. You know, the government make all these, local government make all these threatening noises, do this, do that, do the other thing. It's against the law to do this, whatever. And you just kind of, people just ignored it. And-

• 1:27:48Speaker 02

  So there are, there are some business organizations in South Africa who now use the term- Maximum appropriate non-compliance. That's what they encourage private companies to do. So it's a form of civil disobedience. It's with all these B E E, that's these black empowerment laws.

• 1:28:04Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:28:04Speaker 02

  Just say, we're just not going to comply.

• 1:28:06Tucker Carlson?

  I know someone who had a thriving business he built himself in South Africa. And the government showed up and said, you're handing half your business to your new partner, who didn't do anything, who just show up and collect the money. And it's just they stole half his business. Because it's all theft. I mean, it doesn't, I noticed that like black South Africans haven't gotten richer in the last thirty years.

• 1:28:23Speaker 02

  No, no, no. And the government owns the land, most of the land that they expropriate. They don't give it to people. It goes to the government.

• 1:28:29Tucker Carlson?

  So what if you were to say, like, how about no? Like, you have no legitimacy. And you haven't been here any longer than I've been here. And you have, I mean, and I have guns too, so like, I'm not participating. How's that?

• 1:28:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, civil disobedience can be a wonderful thing. And we've had some examples of successful civil disobedience campaigns in South Africa, where the government had these, they call it the etal system. It's like a big tax system on the highways that just, it's an electronic tax toll system that, but people just buy the thousands, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands just refuse to comply, to get the tags and so forth. And eventually they had to stop it because even though it was law, people just didn't do it. And the same with COVID. COVID was a good example. The law, we've had a bizarre COVID. I mean, everyone has had a bizarre COVID. So we had these strange laws, like you can't buy flip flops during COVID.

• 1:29:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, those are deadly.

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And you cannot buy shorts, all the, and stuff, you cannot buy cooked chicken. We had these really, really bizarre COVID laws. It's a crime to buy cooked chicken or to sell cooked chicken during COVID. And, and so people just, people just said, well, we don't care. We're just gonna do what we want. And, and so there was a massive civil disobedience phenomenon in South Africa during the COVID lockdown. And so I think people have learned, and the government couldn't do anything about it. I think people have learned that, and that, that you can actually do a lot if you just don't comply with these completely ridiculous irrational laws.

• 1:29:59Tucker Carlson?

  That sounds, I mean, I'm, don't limit in South Africa, but again, I have lived in Washington DC. So that sounds totally right to me. Um, I wonder though about what you said as when we first started talking about this, about the the mob justice.

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:30:13Tucker Carlson?

  That does sound scary to me.

• 1:30:15Speaker 02

  I think that's that's a bigger threat.

• 1:30:17Tucker Carlson?

  What do you do about that?

• 1:30:19Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:30:20Tucker Carlson?

  How do you live in a country where, you know, like your neighbors could rise up against you?

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so so so we've had some examples of this. It started with the Rhodes Must Fall movement. It was a.

• 1:30:32Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, the Rhodes, Cecil Rhodes.

• 1:30:33Speaker 02

  Cecil John Rhodes, yeah. So this one guy defecated on Cecil John Rhodes statue at, was it UCT? What university was it in in in Cape Town? And then they started this movement.

• 1:30:44Tucker Carlson?

  He defecated on it?

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:46Tucker Carlson?

  That's attractive. Well, that that's kind of, that's kind of like the level, actually, that you're dealing with, yeah.

• 1:30:52Speaker 02

  And so they started.

• 1:30:53Tucker Carlson?

  Just shit on it.

• 1:30:54Speaker 02

  They started this movement of tearing down statues, which eventually boiled over to America, and that's how it got to America. It started in in and it boiled out over to Europe and so forth. But it started with that, this targeting of statues. I think it was 2012 or something. It was maybe before that even. And it became a mob. And and they they they wore T-shirts with slogans like Kill the Whites, like on the T-shirt. And and it became very violent and very overtly racist. And it was students running around just, you know, setting things on fire, burning down buildings and and stuff like that. So that that is a real threat. And then later, we had the Fees Must Fall movement, that was university students demanding that education must be free.

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  And you shouldn't pay to go to university. And it was the same thing. And now we've had these, more recently, we've had political parties sort of taken up that thing, the Skew the Boa and so forth. And so I honestly think in South Africa, the threat of mob violence is is a bigger threat than the government.

• 1:31:55Tucker Carlson?

  Of course it is. Um, of course it is. And, you know, that's where you get killed, the situations like that, I think. So what do you, I mean, you have to be pretty well organized, pretty well armed.

• 1:32:08Speaker 02

  Well, the thing is, there's no silver bullet. There's no one thing that we can do to make sure that we're equipped to withstand that. But if there is a silver bullet, it would be, or the closest to it, it would be what I mentioned earlier is well organized communities, communities that have a sense of community, that that recognize that you have a sense of responsibility, not just towards yourself and your own family, but towards your community, and that you have some form of a communal identity that is under threat, that is being targeted, and you have to protect yourself. You have to fulfill a bunch of functions that the government is not fulfilling, even though you're paying them to do it, they're not doing it. So you have to look after your own safety. You need to have a gun. You need to have a bulletproof vest. You need to have, or if you

• 1:32:53Speaker 02

  don't, then at least a significant amount of people in your, in your community must, especially those who are more interested in this type of thing. You need to be well organized. You need to be prepared if something bad happens in your community, if the mob comes, if they set the shopping mall on fire, or if they come for people's houses, that in a very short timeframe, you can get a whole bunch of people mobilized to protect their community. And with these riots in 2021, that was a good case study because some communities were completely unprepared, and they were virtually destroyed. And some communities were very well prepared. And when the mobs arrived, there was a bunch of people with guns waiting for them.

• 1:33:31Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I saw a video of the South Asian communities in Durban, the big South Asian, big Indian community there. And I don't know if this is represented, but the videos I saw, man, they were not putting up with it at all.

• 1:33:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were very well armed. Yes. Yeah.

• 1:33:47Tucker Carlson?

  It's like some heroic Indians out there.

• 1:33:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was one, I think, some guy with something that looked like a minigun on the back of a pickup truck.

• 1:33:55Speaker 02

  I don't know where they got that, but

• 1:33:56Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know.

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  But that's, that's an example. There was another example.

• 1:33:59Tucker Carlson?

  You know, these videos are all out of context. I'm not

• 1:34:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know that happens.

• 1:34:02Tucker Carlson?

  During this, but I just, they

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:34:04Tucker Carlson?

  You've got some brave Indians.

• 1:34:05Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, we do. We have some brave Indians. We do. But, and, and there were, there were other examples. One was a, the mob was approaching a town and the people were waiting for them on a bridge. And then they got there, they just couldn't enter because the people had just cordoned off their own town, their own village or, or community and they weren't able to enter. So we've had some case studies of this. It's, South Africa is a fascinating case study for a lot of things.

• 1:34:29Tucker Carlson?

  It certainly is. It certainly is. Can I just ask like a dumb question, a childish question? Why, if I'm the governor of South Africa, it's like, why are you going after productive people for one thing? The most productive, um, and that would include the Indians, the Afrikaans. By the way, some of the black African immigrants, Zimbabweans, like, these are like, are some of the most productive people. Why not just live in harmony, actually? So wouldn't it be better for everybody?

• 1:35:01Speaker 02

  Of course, of course it would be better. I, I, I think it's because they have, when they took power in 1994, they explicitly said, "We are not a political party. We are not a government in terms of what people think a government should be. We are a liberation movement, committed to the promotion of socialism and committed to the promotion of black nationalism." And, and that's, that's their ideology.

• 1:35:22Tucker Carlson?

  They said that in 94.

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, they even said that before 94. They published it.

• 1:35:26Tucker Carlson?

  So it's just, I know I'm going back to the same themes. I'm getting older, sorry. But like, no, but, I mean, I actually did know that because as I said, I've always been interested and I knew people there. But nobody in the American press mentioned that, not one person.

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's a well-known book that was an international bestseller, My Traitor's Heart by a guy called Rian Malan. It's sort of his autobiography.

• 1:35:50Tucker Carlson?

  I've read it.

• 1:35:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. And, and so there's one section in that book, I know Rian, I know the author, he's a great guy. But in the book, he writes about

• 1:35:58Tucker Carlson?

  He's in English. I don't know if he wrote it in Afrikaans originally, but it's a beautifully written book.

• 1:36:02Speaker 02

  It's, it's very well-written.

• 1:36:03Tucker Carlson?

  He's a very nice writer.

• 1:36:04Speaker 02

  He writes as well.

• 1:36:05Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, he does?

• 1:36:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so there's one part in the book where he talks about picking up the New York Times. And I'm sort of saying this from memory from reading the book. But broadly speaking, what he says is he picks up the New York Times in, I don't know, nineteen ninety two or something in, in New York or wherever. And there's two stories next on the same page. The one is about um, the ANC and Nelson Mandela coming to save South Africa. And then the other story is a somewhat smaller story about a guy being necklaced in a local community, a guy being viciously attacked and killed. And so he writes in that book that what, what concerned him was that the New York Times was not able to connect these two stories to each other.

• 1:36:47Speaker 02

  They didn't recognize that it's part of the same story. It's, it's presented as two completely different.

• 1:36:52Tucker Carlson?

  I think they knew exactly. I think it was very obvious. So I was twenty five in nineteen ninety four. And it was very obvious to me. And I, you know, I don't think I have any special powers of insight. I think you would have to be uh, lying to yourself or lying to your audience not to acknowledge it. And by the way, it's nineteen ninety four. That's less than twenty years after the Cameroon took power in Nampen in Cambodia.

• 1:37:16Speaker 02

  That was while the Rwandan genocide was happening.

• 1:37:19Tucker Carlson?

  It was the same year as the Rwanda. It was later that year.

• 1:37:21Speaker 02

  It was the same month even. The, the, the, the election at least.

• 1:37:25Tucker Carlson?

  Was in July?

• 1:37:27Speaker 02

  Uh, April, May, May.

• 1:37:29Tucker Carlson?

  May, okay, right, right.

• 1:37:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:31Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I, I remember them both very well and I knew people in both places at the time. But I remember thinking, you know, obviously what happened in Kigali is way worse in Rwanda is way worse than anything that's happened in, in South Africa, thank God. But I, bottom line, when bad people with bad motives stated publicly, take power, it's not good. So like, I don't know, that's not hard.

• 1:37:53Speaker 02

  Well, there's a story from Rwanda, and one that I keep mentioning in, in the same, the same time. Uh, I think Linda Melvyn wrote a book called Conspiracy to Murder, which is about, I think she lived in Rwanda and she's a journalist and she wrote about the, what happened. And she writes about a Meeting, it must have been a party in Washington between American diplomats and government officials from Rwanda in the run up, I think, to the genocide. And, and it was just a big celebration and everyone was happy because Rwanda was in the process of becoming a democracy. And then afterwards, someone asked one of the Americans, but did you not know what was happening in Rwanda, that they were on the verge of committing genocide?

• 1:38:36Speaker 02

  And he said, the, the American diplomat said, yes, we knew, but we were so excited about democracy.

• 1:38:42Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:38:43Speaker 02

  And Rwanda becoming a democracy, we didn't want to spoil the mood by confronting them.

• 1:38:47Tucker Carlson?

  That, that sounds like an American diplomat.

• 1:38:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:49Tucker Carlson?

  Wow, that's.

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  So, so that's very, very alarming, this idea of being so excited about a potential idea, uh, that you are not willing to confront realities, uh, that, that's happening or that could potentially unfold.

• 1:39:02Tucker Carlson?

  Or being unwilling to clearly define your terms, like what is democracy actually?

• 1:39:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that's, I think that's an underlying.

• 1:39:10Tucker Carlson?

  It's an underlying problem.

• 1:39:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:12Tucker Carlson?

  Right. It's, and it's a problem that's only surfaced in this country in the last couple of years.

• 1:39:15Speaker 02

  Can I give you an example of that from the South African perspective? So I mentioned the name changes, it's a big thing in South Africa.

• 1:39:21Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sure that'll fix your problems. Will that bring the electricity and water back?

• 1:39:24Speaker 02

  No, obviously. So there's a town called Amanzam Tote, which is on the, the, the east coast of South Africa. The main street was named King's Way, they changed it to Andrew Zandu Street. Now Andrew Zandu is really only known for one thing, he was a member of the ANC Youth League and I believe it was 1985, he planted a bomb in a shopping center and he killed, I think, five people and injured forty, all of the people who were killed were women and children. Um, that's the only thing he did and he was a member of the ANC Youth League. The ANC regards that event as a, something that they claim as, as a, an act of heroism. So they named the main street after him. And so there are people in that town who drive to work in a street named after the

• 1:40:08Speaker 02

  person who killed their children. And now they would say that they need to do these name changes to make sure that they get rid of offensive names. Offensive names are Afrikaans names, names linked to South Africa's past. And so I was at, again, a summit where this was discussed, and I mentioned this. I said, so you say that in Pretoria, Church Street is an offensive name and has to be changed. In Ammanzam Tote, you change King's Way to Andrew Zandu. And I tell this story. And I said, so who decides if it's offensive or not? And the guy said, oh, well, that's easy. The majority decides. And so, but it's not even the majority. It's just the government. The government decides because they believe they are the

• 1:40:49Speaker 02

  majority. So we have these extremely offensive things happening under the banner of

• 1:40:54Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they're murderous. I mean, again, I just, yeah, I think it's, the picture is really, really clear. You know, it's, it couldn't be clearer.

• 1:41:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:41:06Tucker Carlson?

  How do you, you're staying?

• 1:41:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah, we'll stay.

• 1:41:10Tucker Carlson?

  You guys must love your country.

• 1:41:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, we really do. I mean, in South Africa, everyone who's been to South Africa would say it's an incredibly beautiful country, and it truly is. And it's a country that unfortunately has suffered so much under this current government, and has suffered so much in the past. One of our Afrikaans philosophers, a man named N. Pierre van Vacllo, wrote, I think in the 1930s or something, that you love a people not so much for their accomplishments as for the hardships that they've had to endure.

• 1:41:40Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 1:41:41Speaker 02

  And, and I think that's true for South Africa. South Africa has endured many hardships. And also for our people, the Afrikaner people, as with many other peoples all over the world, have endured many hardships. And it's through these hardships and remaining, maintaining our sense of identity that we really love our history and our tradition and our culture.

• 1:41:59Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you came in the first place because you were an oppressed minority, correct?

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:42:03Tucker Carlson?

  I know the French did.

• 1:42:04Speaker 02

  Yes, the French Uyghurs, yes. Yes. It was the fleeing the religious wars in Europe.

• 1:42:08Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, they were getting killed.

• 1:42:09Speaker 02

  Yes, in Bignam. Yeah, yeah. That's how, that's, that's part of our origin story, how we

• 1:42:15Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's also factually true.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:17Tucker Carlson?

  It's part of history. I mean, it's not a myth, it's real.

• 1:42:19Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, absolutely.

• 1:42:20Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. So, um, do you think, I don't know what the resolution will be, and I'm certainly rooting for all South Africans of every color, but, um, fervently, but

• 1:42:33Tucker Carlson?

  I gotta think that being able to say certain obvious truths out loud helps.

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:39Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think?

• 1:42:41Speaker 02

  It, well, the problem is if you do that, you really, you get bashed quite aggressively.

• 1:42:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, but like compared to what?

• 1:42:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, no.

• 1:42:49Tucker Carlson?

  They just said, well, taking your land because your skin color.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  Well, the alternative is worse. It's just living the lie. It's, it's, it's much worse than getting bashed for, for telling the truth. Can I, can I tell you a quick story or a quick reference about courage?

• 1:43:02Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:43:03Speaker 02

  So it's somewhat philosophical, but I'll, I'll make it practical. So Odysseus is on his way back from the Trojan War. And, and he has all these hardships and he's trying to get home. And he gets told that the only way for him to get home is to, to face Scylla and Corypheus. Scylla is this six-headed sea monster and Corypheus is a monstrous whirlpool that swallows ships whole. And the only way for him to get home is he has to navigate through these two monsters, which he eventually does. He decides it's better for him to move, to sail his ship closer to Scylla, the mon, the sea monster than the whirlpool. And a whole lot of his people die, but he reaches his destination. And so Aristotle writes about this in, in the Nicomachean Ethics.

• 1:43:48Speaker 02

  And he talks, when he talks about the golden mean, and he says, any virtue is about finding the balance between having excess of it and having a deficiency of it. And, and so this goes to courage and courage is a good example. If you have excess courage, you become reckless.

• 1:44:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  And if you have a deficiency, then you're a coward. And so the, the, the point of having courage is finding the balance between cowardice and recklessness. And what's great about the story of Odysseus is Odysseus discovers that he cannot simply go exactly in the middle between the two. He has to be closer to the one threat than to the other, because if he goes too close to the whirlpool, his whole ship gets swallowed up. And so the point here, and Aristotle says this as well, it's not to find the exact middle point. It's to find the appropriate balance between the two extremes. And so the one extreme is recklessness and the other extreme is, is cowardice. And, and I honestly think in the situation we are in.

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  It's better to err on the side of being too bold than to err on the side of having not enough courage, or trying to find some form of solution through appeasement. And so we make mistakes in the process and you know, sometimes you say something wrong or you do something wrong. But, but I'm very much convinced that if we, if, if we, if we're on this course and we try to pursue what we are trying to pursue, rather err on the side of having too much boldness and too much courage and facing the consequences, than having to face the consequences of having a lack of, of courage.

• 1:45:15Tucker Carlson?

  I love that. I gotta say, in a lifetime of travel, the two, if I could just generalize, the two most impressive groups I meet everywhere, my whole life, around the world, both groups living in exile in large numbers are the South Africans and the Lebanese.

• 1:45:32Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 1:45:33Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, yes. I've never met one of either group I didn't like and didn't admire. I don't think I've met one in either group. And the thing that they have in common is they live in beautiful, volatile countries that they really love, but they're very hard to live in.

• 1:45:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:45:45Tucker Carlson?

  And so they're, they're caught between that tension, you know, cowardice and recklessness, and they're making that calculation every single day. And they're, they're living so thoughtfully and so purposefully and in such a, I don't know, just a admirable, noble way. I just noticed that.

• 1:46:01Speaker 02

  Oh, I, I appreciate the, the comment.

• 1:46:04Tucker Carlson?

  It was just an observation, but I've thought about it many times. Last question, what, um, where can people who have made it this far into the interview and are, and are interested in what's happening in your country and happening to, to your group? How can they follow it? How can they be helpful? How can they learn more and be supportive?

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  Well, I think there are many ways. The one way is just to follow what's happening in South Africa and speak about it.

• 1:46:32Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:46:33Speaker 02

  Because we've had this incredible barrage of, of communications coming, just telling us again how wrong we are, you know? This narrative is this zeitgeist in a certain sense. It's, it's really like a monster that you have to fight this, you know, that you're not allowed to say, speak certain truths, even though the truths are self-evident. So I think one thing is if people just can help spread the message, help take some interest in South Africa, because what's happening in South Africa is also of interest to the rest of the world.

• 1:46:59Tucker Carlson?

  I think it is.

• 1:46:59Speaker 02

  In many ways, South Africa is the future of the Western world.

• 1:47:02Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  Um, in terms of the problem and the solution, I, I think. So, so that's one. And then the other is there really are some institutions in South Africa. Who are really focused on on building community based solutions. And I think if people can can identify these institutions and and support these institutions, it it really would help. And I think in terms of the US government, if the US government is is willing to do something, as it seems that they are, I think the most important thing that they could do is a combination of pressuring the South African government from away from these destructive policies, but also supporting communities, local communities or minority communities or nations, you should say, who are committed to finding some form of self determination.

• 1:47:46Tucker Carlson?

  Amen. Well, Godspeed. I hope to see you again. I hope you you'll come back.

• 1:47:51Speaker 02

  I'll thank you. I hope so, too. And then I have to thank you for not just for this interview, but also for the the focus you've been putting on South Africa in the past. It was really.

• 1:47:59Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's just so it's just so interesting and it reveals so much about us. I'm American and it reveals a lot about our leadership class and I'm and I think it's important to say it.

• 1:48:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:07Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 1:48:07Speaker 02

  Well, thank you very much.

• 1:48:13Tucker Carlson?

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