Encore: Food: The Root Causes of Our Healthcare, Economic and Social Crises with Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

You’ve probably heard a lot about Robert F. Kennedy Jr., but beyond social media sound bites, do you really know where he stands on the issues shaping America’s health? Recorded last year when Kennedy was a presidential candidate, this episode of The Dr. Hyman Show provides a deep dive into his vision for improving the well-being of Americans. A vision Kennedy could put into action if confirmed as Secretary of Health and Human Services. Kennedy is the founder of the Waterkeeper Alliance, the world’s largest clean water advocacy group, and served as its longtime chairman and attorney. He also founded the Children’s Health Defense and led efforts to address chronic disease and toxic exposures. As a litigator, he was part of the team that successfully prosecuted Monsanto for glyphosate’s link to cancer. Tune in to explore Kennedy’s stance on tackling chronic disease, promoting regenerative farming, and improving the quality of the water we drink and the air we breathe. In this episode, we discuss (audio version / Apple Subscriber version): The state of health in America (5:41 / 4:01) One of the main reasons RFK Jr. decided to run for president (8:39 / 6:59) The beginning of the autism epidemic (12:38 / 10:58) Addressing harms caused by ultra-processed food (15:03 / 13:23) Eliminating corporate culture in government agencies (33:05 / 28:41) America’s disproportionate deaths from COVID-19 (42:10 / 37:46) How America’s health status is affecting our national security (44:34 / 40:10) Solving the mental health crisis (47:41 / 43:17) Food and drug TV marketing (56:14 / 51:49) RFK’s thinking about fitness for himself and America (1:03:39 / 59:14) View Show Notes From This Episode Get Free Weekly Health Tips from Dr. Hyman Sign Up for Dr. Hyman’s Weekly Longevity Journal This episode is brought to you by Big Bold Health, Paleovalley, Fatty15, AirDoctor, and Seed. Receive 30% off Big Bold Health's Himalayan Tartary Buckwheat sprouted powder. Head to BigBoldHealth. Com and use code DRMARK30 at checkout. Get nutrient-dense, whole foods. Head to Paleovalley.com/Hyman for 15% off your first purchase. Head to Fatty15.com/HYMAN and use code HYMAN for 15% off your 90-day subscription Starter Kit. Get cleaner air. Right now, you can get up to $300 off at AirDoctorPro.com/DRHYMAN. Seed is offering my community 25% off to try DS-01® for themselves. Visit Seed.com/Hyman and use code 25HYMAN for 25% off your first month of Seed's DS-01® Daily Synbiotic.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Coming up on this week's episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  We know it's not genes. Genes do not cause epidemics. It can provide a vulnerability, but you need an environmental toxin. Our kids didn't suddenly get lazy. You know, we are mass poisoning our children.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Welcome to The Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman, and this is a place for conversations that matter. Now, Americans are sicker than ever, and it's not only resulting in poor physical and mental health, it's impacting our economy, our environment, our children's future, and even our national security. So today, I'm talking about how we got here, and what's needed to turn things around with my friend, activist, and presidential candidate, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is an independent candidate for the President of the United States. He's the founder of the Waterkeeper Alliance, the world's largest clean water advocacy group, and served as its longtime chairman and attorney. He then went on to found the Children's Health Defense, where he served as chairman and chief litigation counsel in his campaign to address childhood, chronic disease, and toxic exposures. He

• 1:05Speaker 00

  was also on the team that prosecuted and won the case against Monsanto for glyphosate's role in causing cancer. As president, he promises to restore the middle class, to unwind the war machine, unravel corporate capture, end the chronic disease epidemic, which I care a lot about, secure the border, protect our wild places, improve the quality of the water we drink and the air we breathe, heal the divide, fix our public education system, take care of our veterans, support the trade, and make homes affordable again. He also promises to support regenerative farming and other key priorities. So I encourage you to learn more about him by visiting kennedy24.com. Now, while I'm not endorsing any particular candidate, I was interested to talk to Bobby because he's one of the only candidates I'm aware of who recognizes how making Americans

• 1:50Speaker 00

  healthier will fix so many of the issues we're facing today. Bobby shares from his perspective that we are mass poisoning our children, and why we need to get more information out to people about this. We discuss how corporate capture in the public and private sectors is keeping America sick, and Bobby talks about how we can begin to reduce healthcare costs and improve health outcomes. Across the country, we also identify why America experienced such a high death rate from COVID-19 and how ultra-processed food is not only making us sick physically, but it's also making us more anxious, more depressed, and more inflamed. We talk about why it is that we crave food that's so bad for us and how we can end our sugar addictions and move toward better health and more. Now, let's dive into my conversation with Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  Hey Bobby, it's great to see you again. How you doing?

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Hey Mark, where are you?

• 2:40Speaker 00

  I'm in La Paz in Bolivia, 13,000 feet. So hopefully I'm out of oxygen in my brain to do this conversation. We just came out of the Amazon and you know, I've been down in Chile with you.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  I think I talked to you about that before that I, because you and I visited Peru together. But I had lived my senior year in high school for half the year I'd lived in Elave, which is up in the Altiplano in Peru with an Indian tribe, the Aymaras. And it was 14,000 feet and it really does a lot of weird things to your, to your body and your everything.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  Well, hopefully I'm out of oxygen to have this conversation, but I wanted to talk about your position on health. You're one of the few candidates out there in the presidential race, probably the only one who's focused on improving the health of America by not just having access to healthcare, which we all have, but really addressing the causes of why our healthcare system is so screwed up, why America is so sick, why we're so overweight, and what we can do about it. So I'm excited to talk to you about a lot of this because you know, we've together done a lot of physical activity. We've rafted down rivers, we've hiked mountains, we've done a lot of fun stuff and we're always doing active things and fitness is a really key part of your life and, and your, your work. And it's actually how you maintain, I think, your, your energy on the campaign trail. So I want to sort of start by kind of laying out

• 4:03Speaker 00

  a little bit of the landscape of what we're facing and why we really need to kind of double down on our thinking about the health of America, which really affects our global standing in the world, our economic competitiveness, our productivity. And right now we're screwed.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  75% of Americans that were weighed 45% of kids. Go create a new data 93.2% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy, which means they have either high blood sugar, high cholesterol, high blood pressure or overweight or have had a heart attack or stroke. Six in 10 Americans have a chronic disease. A large part, this is due to the explosion of ultra-processed food over the last 20, 30 years. It drives poor metabolic health. It's also affecting our mental health crisis, increasing, you know, a lot of our, our depression, anxiety, polarization, violence, aggression, all because of the food we're eating. And the cost is staggering, you know, as president, you have to deal with our budget and, you know, $4.3 trillion are spent every year on healthcare, now $1 in five dollars in our economy. And it leads to also huge amounts of lost productivity with billions of dollars a year in lost productivity.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  And what's really frightening, Bobby, is our life expectancy is going down with the largest year-over-year drop in the last two years in our history, which is far below all other nations. And, and we're 60, more than 60 on the list of, of life expectancy in the world. And what's really also, as I began to look at this data, it was really interesting. We have a wealth gap in this country, right? A 39% increase since 1980, meaning the rich and the poor have about a 39% spread since 1980. But the death gap has increased 570% since 1980. And it's worse in the South, the Midwest, which are mostly red states because of increasing rates of diabetes and obesity. And our government policies don't address this, you know, in 2021, the GAO, the Government

• 5:49Speaker 00

  Accountability Report on Chronic Disease and Nutrition found over 200 policies, 21 agencies on nutrition, working mostly at cross purposes, making America sicker and increasing healthcare costs. Like on one hand, we say with the dietary guidelines, don't eat sugar, and reduce your intake of all that. And on the other hand, with our SNAP or food stamp program, 75% of the food is processed, ultra-processed food, 10% is soda, meaning $10 billion here in soda. So, you know, we're in this situation where, where even the FDA commissioner, Robert Kalip, has said, our life expectancy is going the wrong way. We're, we're the top health official in the country. We don't fix it too well. And I, and you, you also talked about this, and you were quoted in the He said, if we had regulatory agencies that were interested in actually looking at data,

• 6:35Speaker 00

  we would be trying to figure out why all cause mortality for Americans has increased. They're not COVID deaths. So we don't really have a healthcare system. We have a sick care system and those who profit most, big ag, big food, big pharma, they just perpetuate that system that benefits from chronic disease, which is horrible. So would you consider this a national emergency? And as president, how would you begin to really address this problem?

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is one of the reasons, the key reasons that I ran for president, Mark, to end this chronic disease epidemic and to restore Americans to good health. When my uncle was president, in 1960, he was, if you go back and look at his speeches and his thoughts back then, and he was extraordinarily distressed at that point that we were losing control to Europeans. And if he could look at Americans today, he would be in shock because we are so sick, as you say, the obesity during his, when he was in office, obesity was at 13%.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Today it's at 42%, 45% now. 75% of Americans are overweight. When he was in office, 6% of Americans had chronic disease. By 1986, 11.8%, so it had doubled between 1960 and 1986. It's 26 years. By 2006, it was at 54%. And we don't really know what the numbers are right now because of, I would say, purposeful data chaos that comes out of NIH that they will not give us

• 8:21Speaker 01

  straight ways of measuring baselines of understanding, you know, why healthcare, why, why, why public health is declining so precipitously in our country.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's clearly, these are epidemics, the epidemics, we're seeing epidemics of all these chronic diseases, not only obesity.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Neurological diseases, ADD, ADHD, speech delay, language delay, tics, Tourette's Syndrome, narcolepsy, ASD, autism, all of these diseases that you and I never heard of when we were kids.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  There was that one trouble came to class and now it's like half the class, right?

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, autism has gone in one in 10,000 in my generation. So seventy year old men, one in 10,000 have full blown autism. And by that, I mean, non-verbal, non-toilet train, stimming, toe walking, hand flapping. You don't see the people like that my age. But one in every third, according to CDC, one in out every 34 kids looks like that. What's happened? One in 22 boys. And then we have the autoimmune diseases. It suddenly blew up in the early 90s. Juvenile diabetes, which I never saw when I was a kid. Rheumatoid

• 9:45Speaker 01

  arthritis, all these exotic diseases like Crohn's disease, lupus. And then the allergic diseases that suddenly appeared at the same time in the mid 90s. Peanut allergies, food allergy. I had anaphylaxis, eczema. Whoever heard of eczema? Nobody. And now all these kids have it. They're all scratching. They all have the, you know, the rashes. And we have it. And then, you know, you got, they're all over, they're all medicated. They got, they're taking Adderall, they're taking antidepressants, they're taking Ritalin, they've got their albuterol inhalers in every classroom. They've got EpiPens in every classroom. And, you

• 10:28Speaker 01

  know, there's, there's a study that, that Congress asked EPA to do.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  And EPA is captured agency, but it's captured not by the pharmaceutical industry, and it's not really heavily captured by the agricultural industry because it doesn't really directly regulate those. It's captured by oil, and coal, and gas, and chemical. But Congress said to EPA, tell us what year the autism epidemic began. So EPA actually did a real study with real science, and the scientists came back and said 1989, that was the change year. So, you know, the challenge is, and if you look at all of these diseases,

• 11:16Speaker 01

  they follow kind of that same timeline. Well, so what happened in 1989? What happened in the early 90s? We know it's not genes. Genes do not cause epidemics. It can provide a vulnerability, but you need an environmental toxin. Our kids didn't suddenly get lazy. You know, we are mass poisoning our children. And so you have to figure out a toxin that was introduced and became ubiquitous in the 1989, the mid 90s, and that affects every

• 11:55Speaker 01

  demographic from Cubans and Cubist gang to Inuit in Alaska and Homer Alaska. And, you know, and there aren't that many candidates. One of them is high fructose corn syrup, clearly, all these processed foods that, you know, my generation began eating. I mean, we were eating, I was just Twinkies, by the way.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  I like Jose's cupcakes. I used to go to the corner store in Queens and get them.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  I wish I had a dollar for every one of those that I ate, before I met you, of course.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  I'd still eat them if I could.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Well, you're good. You listened to me, Bobby. You stopped drinking soda. You did a good job. You got fitter. Actually, since I met you 15 years ago, you actually are fitter and better shape than you were back then. It's impressive.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  I was drinking nine cokes a day. I actually, I have this app called days.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  I'll show you that.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  It says 3,000, 3,057 days. That's without a, without a coke, without any soda.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's amazing. That's about how long I've known you. A little bit more. It took me a while to get you convinced.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  That's almost 10 years and I was, I was drinking a lot of coke. I was drinking like eight or nine cokes a day.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. So you're right, Bobby. The ultra-processed food is a huge issue and it's exploded in the last decades. And it's really been one of those inciting factors that's driven our epidemic. And I think we're looking for a smoking gun.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  This is icy with no sugar in it.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Thanks, Bobby. But you know, we really have, you know, smoking is an easy, literally smoking gun. And it's linked to lung cancer. And so in food, it's been very difficult because it's like, what food? Should it be fat, sugar or salt? But I think that what we're coming to understand in science, there's a huge body of evidence now that supports this, is that ultra-processed food, which is really defined by this NOVA classification that degrades food on how processed it is. Like, you know, tomato can is processed, but it's minimally processed. Whereas, you know, a Twinkie is extremely processed and it's made up of deconstructed food ingredients that are originally food, but then they deconstructed it into molecular science projects and they reassemble them to look like something you could eat. But they're not really food by definition.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  And that, that has been driving the epidemic of obesity, diabetes, all these chronic illnesses that destroys our gut microbiome. It drives inflammation. It affects mental health. And it's linked to depression, suicide, violence. It's quite interesting. And, and it also has increased mortality. For every 10% of your diet that's ultra-processed food, your risk of death goes up by 14%. And 60 plus percent of our diet is adult and 67% of kids diets. And I think, I think, how would you think about addressing this as president? Because we are, in my view, we're seeing like a slow-moving tsunami. We're all getting our suntan on the beach. And this is coming at us so fast. And we're really now going to see in the next generation that there is consequences. Because our kids, like you mentioned, are all coming into adulthood sick and overweight and on lots of medications.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would, you know, my inclination is that is to to give people good information. And at the same time maximize freedom. So I wouldn't tell people what to eat and what not to eat, but what I would tell people is I would, I'm going to take the NIH and bring it back to its original mission. And let me, let me explain that. When I was a little kid, NIH was the gold standard scientific agency on earth, just like NASA was for space, you know, but I, and I, when I was a little boy, we only, we lived in McLean, which is only a few minutes from Bethesda, Maryland. And my mother had an assistant who worked

• 15:48Speaker 01

  for her, whose husband was a scientist at NIH. You know, I used to go down to NIH because I was fascinated by science. And I would go and look at the guinea pigs and the rats and the mice and all the things they were doing. And, you know, during that period, Mark, we had, there were a lot of new countries that were beginning. There were 122 new nations that began after World War II, and a lot of more African and colonial nations that got their sovereignty, they didn't have the money to have a real scientific agency. So a lot of them in their constitutions and their statutory framework would say,

• 16:27Speaker 01

  if FDA approves it, if NIH says it's true, then we will consider it true. So they didn't even have their agencies, but they relied on ours because everybody trusted American science. And then something happened to NIH and a whole bunch of, there was a lot of corporate capture, all these mechanisms of corporate capture. But most importantly, in 1980, the, the, the BIDOL Act was passed, and that act gave NIH and NIH individual scientists the rights to collect royalties on any drug that they worked on. So, for

• 17:10Speaker 01

  example, today, the Moderna vaccine was produced by NIH and it's made tens of billions of dollars. Well, half that money will go to NIH.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  And some of that money goes to scientists who work at NIH. There's six scientists who get to collect $150,000 a year forever.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Well, of course, if you have those kind of perverse economic incentives and conflicts of interest, it is going to subsume the regulatory function and, you know, beneath the kind of mercantile ambitions of those individuals who can make a lot of money. If you're paying for your boat, your alimony, and your house, and your children's education, a drug that you're supposed to be regulating, you may turn a blind eye to some of the problems with that drug, and you may do everything you can to get it through the regulatory process and get it mandated, and that's what's happened. But not only that, the entire function

• 18:07Speaker 01

  of NIH has changed so that, I think it was 2016 or 2017, when I actually did this calculation, there was 220 new drugs approved by FDA, and all of them had come from NIH. So NIH is now the biggest incubator of pharmaceutical products. Yeah. And what's happened is, you know, they're no longer doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is, as the question, why do we have an autism epidemic? Why do we have an obesity epidemic? It's pretty easy to figure out. Yeah. There's only a certain number of suspects. You know, you have processed foods, the

• 18:48Speaker 01

  PFOAs you have, you have neonicotoid pesticides, atrazine, glyphosate, cell phone radiation. There's a limited universe, and you can figure out pretty easily which ones are causing which effects, and it's probably cumulative, so they're all probably working on similar biological pathways and hurting our kids. You can figure out that, too. NIH does not do that science. In fact, if you try to do that science, let's say you're a university young associate professor at Stanford, and you say, hey, you know what, I have access to the vaccine, I have access

• 19:30Speaker 01

  to the California or the Florida health care records, so I can look at exposures that people made and then the subsequent medical claims, whether it's vaccines, or, you know, your food, you can look at all that. I'm going to study and find out, why do we have an autism epidemic? Why do we have an obesity epidemic? Yeah. If you try to do those studies... You could easily jeopardize your job and your future.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  We call the NIH the National Health, but it's not really. It's diseases and it's focused not on the root causes, which is really unfortunate.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go down to NIH during my first week in office. And I'm gonna assemble all the division chairs and the branch chairs. And I I'm gonna say to them, we're going to do something different. We have a NIH has a $42 billion annual budget. It distributes that money to 56,000 scientists, mainly at universities. To develop new drugs and to do, you know, studies. I'm gonna say, we are gonna make it our priority now. As fast as possible. To fund studies that are gonna tell us what's causing this epidemic. And then I'm gonna get those studies funded.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna get them underway, every way of looking at them. I'm also gonna call in all the scientific journals into the Justice Department. And I'm gonna say to them, you've been serving the interest, you've been lying to the public. You are representing yourself as a neutral. And reliable source of health information. And you have done tremendous damage. The public health because you're not, you are not that. You are publishing thing, you are publishing so fake science. That is designed to to promote the mercantile ambitions of the pharmaceutical industry.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And and of the and of the food industry, of the big agricultural interests, of the oil and gas and coal. And all these other big, powerful industries. And and and you're lying to the public and you've caused tremendous damage to public health. And I'm gonna hold you responsible. I'm gonna, I'm gonna litigate against you under the racketeering laws.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Under the general tort laws, I'm gonna find a way to sue you unless you come up with a plan right now to show how you're gonna start publishing real science and stop retracting the real science and publishing, you know, the fake pharmaceutical science by these phony industry mercenaries, scientists that we call biostatues. That's what they published in the New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, you know, Ebiopharma, all of these other publications, Elsevier, and I'm gonna straighten that out so that people can actually get real information.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  The other thing that that's gonna do, Mark, is it will give the attorneys a chance to litigate these issues in court because there's no good science on these issues. You can't sue a company for making your children fat, for poisoning them so that their microbiome doesn't work anymore. Once you create that science, once you have 15 or 20 studies that show that, then those kind of suits become possible, and that's how you really change policy, just like we did with the Monsanto case. Yeah, I agree. You know, we got a critical threshold of studies, and animal studies, observational

• 23:16Speaker 01

  studies, epidemiological studies, bench studies, that showed that glyphosate was causing non-Hodgkin's syndrome in Roundup. And before that, if you were a President of the United States and you tried to ban Roundup, you would go nowhere. It doesn't matter who you are. But if you have enough science to get past the Dalbert threshold, which is a threshold in federal courts where the judge has to make an independent judgment that there's sufficient science, critical mass of science, 15, 20, 25 studies out there that show the link between this exposure and this illness. Yeah.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  That's called Dalbert, and the judge is not allowed to send it to a jury until you have that package of science. And what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna provide enough science, sufficient science, on each one of these exposures and each one of these injuries. To show who's causing what and all of them responsible and quick.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  I think that's so important, Bobby, because, you know, this has been so neglected in the National Health Budget, there's really almost nothing for nutrition research, which is the biggest driver of so much of the things we're talking about, the chronic illness, the obesity, the diabetes, the mental health crisis. And yet, there are other issues you mentioned, environmental chemicals, various kinds of stresses and so forth that are there, things like glyphosate affecting our microbiome. But the ultra-processed food is something that we really haven't doubled down and studied, and it's driving all the other diseases. So at the NIH, they study cancer, and they give you $6 billion for that, or heart disease, or diabetes, but they're not studying the root causes. And I think in medicine, we're really so focused on the downstream things that we can treat with the medication rather

• 25:03Speaker 00

  than the upstream root causes. And it's going to require a fairly rigorous approach, looking at, one, the science, and, two, you know, why are we actually promoting policies even with the science that we have now, which shows the damage of ultra-processed food, where we're paying, I have a $100 billion a year SNAP bill, which is a food stamp, that most of that is for junk food and ultra-processed food, which we know is killing people, and 10% is soda, then we're paying for that on the back end with Medicaid and Medicare for all the chronic disease. You know, we're also seeing the challenges of the capture, not just the agencies like the FDA, and the USDA, and HHS, and EPA, and CDC, but also Congress. You know, I sat down with a congressman the other day, who I got excited about what

• 25:46Speaker 00

  I was talking about, I met with him about our Food Fix campaign to try to transform our food system and actually have reimbursement for nutrition, healthcare, and many other efforts. And he lost 25 pounds by following the suggestions I made, he cut down sugar. I said, why don't we do a sugar detox for Congress? He goes, well, I can't really do that, I'm on the candy caucus. I'm like, oh my God, you know, like, everybody is unwilling to actually step up and do the right thing because of this. And I wonder how we begin to address this corporate capture, because we have all the agencies not coordinated around food, we have all these things siloed, you know, it's affecting every area of our society, and we're dealing with all things separately, like we're With, you know, the issue of chronic disease and with medication or Zempic for obesity.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  We're dealing with the economic, you know, deficit, budget deficit and, and our, our national debt. By talking about how we cut tax, cut spending and increase taxes and all these things without talking about why we're having this, right? One to five dollars of our economy is from chronic disease, mostly preventable through lifestyle. We have to start with, with those root cause things and address this. So how would you think about, you know, dealing with this corporate capture process, which is affecting our, our health and our healthcare?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I, I think there's a number of ways to deal with it. One is what I said before is to make sure they're producing good science and then you have a market response. You know, you, once you get in good information to the public, you can have a market response to bad food, to bad, you know, to tell people, you're not helping it to tell mothers, you're not helping your mother, your children. Feed them Fruit Loops, you know, uh, no, you're not, it's not, it's, you are not doing what a parent ought to do. To give your kids a dies and, and sugar, you know, a mixture of dies and sugar with, and, and a high Fukucho's corns there.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right now I'm in South America, Bobby, and all the labels on the foods, they're all clear. Green is good for you, yellow caution, red, this is bad for you. And anybody can understand that even if you have no education with currently our FDA labeling is so confusing. You have to be a nutrition PhD to understand it and even then you can't really get it. So we have to change labeling, we have to change marketing, we have to change research infrastructure. We have to change how we're reimbursing healthcare services to incentivize doctors and, and healthcare providers to provide nutrition services and deal with the root causes. And right now we don't do that. You can get paid for doing a stint, but you can't pay for doing an intensive lifestyle care program like we do at Cleveland Clinic. Where we're reversing diabetes, reversing heart disease, reversing these chronic illnesses, using food as medicine.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  So it's, it seems to be one of the central things that we can do to radically shift our, our trajectory in America, which is, you know, like I said, we're I think 60th or worse in our life expectancy, despite spending twice as much as any other nation on healthcare.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  I mean, and then the other thing I'm going to do is just to change the corporate culture at these agencies and that is going to require a president who actually understands how the agencies work. I've litigated against almost all these agencies against NIH, CDC, FDA, EPA, FCC. I recently won a case against FCC in the Federal Court of Appeals. They're lying to the public about cellphone radiation. I'm involved in litigation right now involving DOT, Department of Transportation, because I'm representing a thousand families in East Palestine, Ohio, whose lives were abandoned by the Norfolk Southern. All of these problems,

• 29:25Speaker 01

  you know, and all of these agencies are coming from corporate capture. And I know how to unravel it. I know in many of the agencies who the individuals are. I can name them off the top of my head who are who are putting corporate capture on the steroids. I understand the perverse incentives that that also amplify corporate capture. Why does FDA get 50% of its budget

• 29:51Speaker 01

  from pharmaceutical companies? Why can NIH scientists get royalties on the products they're supposed to be regulating? Why does NIH get royalties on products it's supposed to be finding problems with?

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  You know, it's just a bribery. It's a it's an eternal loop of bribery, of corrupt bribery. Oh, I, you know, and I'm going to go to these agencies. I'm going to pick people instead of picking like, you know, Donald Trump promised that he would unravel the swamp, but then he appoints John Bolton to head NSA, who is, you know, who is the face of the military industrial complex.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  You appoint Scott Gottlieb, who's a part, a business partner of Pfizer to run FDA.

• 30:42Speaker 00

  And then he went back to work for Pfizer afterwards.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, FDA does an $88 billion under him for Pfizer and then he goes back to work for Pfizer again. So it's a Alex Azar is another lobbyist from the pharmaceutical industry who gets appointed to the head of NIH. And you look at all of the regulatory agencies, they were all being run by people who were within those industries. And I'm not going to do that. I'm going to bring people of integrity into government. And, you know, who will change the culture of those agencies and reward the branch and division chairs that actually are doing public health.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  And I'm going to get rid of, I'm going to change some of the policies about, about the remote that allows these, you know, that I think the last six FDA chiefs have gone to work for pharmaceutical companies within a year of leaving the FDA. I don't know.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be called the FDA Bobby, because it should be called the Federal Drug Administration, not the Food and Drug Administration, because 7% of the budget is on food, 93% is on pharma. And, you know, food safety is what they're looking at, which is whether you get salmonella or food poisoning. And that's about 2,400 people dying a year. We have more than that dying every day from eating our, what we call a standard American diet or sad diet, our ultra-processed diet. And they're not doing anything about that. The labeling is horrible, the regulation of chemicals and food, ultra-processed food is not there. We have the data and they're not acting on it. And it's for me as a doctor, seeing these people in my office, and I've been a doctor for over 30 years now. And in my own career, my own life, I've seen this explosion of these diseases that you mentioned at the onset of the podcast,

• 32:29Speaker 00

  from all the obesity and metabolic diseases to the environmentally related diseases, neurodegenerative diseases, neurodevelopmental diseases, autoimmune inflammatory diseases. These are things that didn't exist in their volume that we have now. And, and the FDA is really not. And our NIH is not addressing this and our healthcare system itself is incentivized to actually make more money doing more stuff rather than making people healthier. I mean, imagine if you had a car that you drove off a lot and you had to pay for the car and it didn't work after you drove it off the lot. That's essentially what we do with our current healthcare system. We don't pay for results and outcomes. We pay for doing more stuff, more surgeries, more medications, more doctor's visits, more hospitalizations, and that's got to change.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  And you know, another thing that we can do is, you know, and I'm saying this with a due concern for privacy or individual privacy, but you can de-personalize medical records and digitalize, a lot of them are digitalized anyway.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Once they're digitalized, you can do a medical informatic system that essentially is constantly doing epidemiological studies on every drug and comparing, you know, one diabetes drug outcome to another diabetes drug outcome and then saying, we're only going to pay for the one where, you know, we maximize the bang for buck. And none of that happens. There's none of those kind of, you know, everything, everybody is the mercy of the pharmaceutical reps, you know, the doctors are prescribing what they tell them to prescribe. And, you know, the public is at the mercy of an FDA that is owned, you know, the FDA

• 34:12Speaker 01

  is just a stock puppet and the industry is supposed to regulate. And, you know, all of this is easily changed. You know, I'm not saying it's, you know, I'm going to be able to accomplish it all on day one, but I'm going to accomplish it very quickly. And you know what I've said to people? If I haven't dramatically reduced.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  The occurrence of chronic disease in children. By my third year in office, that people shouldn't vote for me again. You know, I'm that confident that I'm going to be able to change this.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's true. It's not, it's not a lack of knowledge or knowing what to do. It's really a lack of the political will, a lack of the, the right incentives in business, a lack of awareness and education in the public. And we can do that. And we've done it before with smoking and other campaigns that have been effective in reducing that. And I think, you know, I don't know if it's going to require litigation against some of these corporations that are doing harmful things. I think no one intends to, but the downstream consequences, unintended consequences of this ultra-processed food explosion is, is something we can't ignore anymore. And I, I'm really proud of you, Bobby, for actually taking a stand on this because I've been very carefully listening to the political narrative for decades and I've never heard any presidential candidate actually talk about these issues.

• 35:33Speaker 00

  It's almost like, let's get some Medicaid for all, or let's, you know, restrict Medicaid, or let's, you know, limit this or limit that, not talking about the real root causes.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and you know, that, that debate between, you know, Medicaid for all, or, you know, whether there's a, um, public, private, you know, a, a, a public option, or a gradual integration, or, you know, whatever it is, Obamacare, it's all about moving deck chairs around in the Titanic. Because, you know, the thing that's driving costs, it's shifting costs from one person to another. Is it, you know, who's going to pay the cost? It's going to be the doctors who pay the cost, it's going to be the hospitals who pay the cost, it's going to be the HMOs, the pharmaceutical companies, the government, who's going to pay it? That's the only debate that's going on.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  And what we should be saying is, how do we reduce the cost so it's more in line with the healthier countries in the world? We pay 4.3 trillion dollars for healthcare. That is, that dwarfs what anybody else pays in the world per capita. We're paying two or three or four times what other, what European nations do, and we're getting worse outcomes. Where I think, I read one, you know, there's many ways of calculating where we are in the world. You say we're 60th in, in life expectancy. There's other indicia that you look at, um, child infant mortality, maternal mortality.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Cancer, esophageal disease, but by one of these, you know, reasonable metrics, we're 79th in the world in healthcare outcomes.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  In Mongolia, in Cuba, we're behind Costa Rica.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  And, you know, and we're supposed, when I was a kid, we had the best healthcare system in the world. People came all over the world to see American doctors, but more importantly, that level of healthcare was available to every, you know, class of Americans. Oh yeah, we have some good specialists here now, but the, the care that Americans get when they are sick, if they get any at all, is some of the worst in the world. And we have the highest chronic disease burden on earth.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Nobody has a chronic disease. And, you know, this is, um, the, the COVID epidemic was really a bellwether for us. It was an eye opener.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  We had 16% of the COVID deaths in this country. We only have 4.2% of the global population.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  So why did we have so many COVID deaths? Well, one was just terrible mismanagement of the, of the, you know, COVID epidemic, including denying people access to therapeutic drugs that were proven to work. But more importantly, um, we had the highest chronic disease burden. So CDC says that the average American who died from COVID had 3.8 chronic diseases.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Oh, and that, it was the chronic disease that was killing them. You know, COVID.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  Obesity, chronic disease.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Dangling the, on top of the cliff, and then COVID stuck, stepped on their fingernails and made them fall. But they were already hanging off the cliff and, you know, and, and that's what, you know, nobody is explaining that. Anthony Fauci, who was running the system for 50 years, ran it in the ground, was getting all these awards for managing COVID. He's never explained how, under his watch, allergic diseases, which he directly is in charge of, exploded from, from essentially zero to, you know, you know, a large percentage of the American population have them now.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  And, you know, I, as I said, we spent four, 4.3 trillion on, on healthcare in this country. When my uncle was president, 6% of Americans had chronic disease. Now, we don't know, but probably around 60%, which is a number you

• 39:40Speaker 00

  It is 6 out of 6 and 10 or more, and 40% have more than one. It's a problem.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  And, but even larger percentage are healthcare. I think it's 93% of Medicare costs are chronic disease and, and something like 85% of Medicaid.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  If we can get rid of chronic disease, we can solve our healthcare crisis in this country, which is also the economic crisis. But the biggest, the second biggest cost to America is the military, which if you include national security and veterans benefits, 1.3 trillion a year. Well, this is 4.3 trillion. So it's, you know, basically, you know, more than three times what the military costs. It's by far the biggest cost we have. We want to reduce the budget deficit. We got to start with, but even more important, if we, you know, it's highly likely, and in, you know, the next 20 years, we're going to face some

• 40:43Speaker 01

  catastrophic crisis in our country. It could be an economic meltdown. It could be a war. It could be, you know, environmental injuries, catastrophes, whatever. We're America. We can weather any kind of storm. We have our, you know, what our entrepreneurial impulses, we have the greatest natural resources in the world. We'll figure out a way around it, you know, what, what Franklin Roosevelt called America's industrial genius. But as long as you're healthy, we can figure it out. But if you got a chronic disease, or if you're caring for a child with full-blown autism.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  That reduces your productivity to probably 10 or 20% of what it would normally be. And you will not have, you will be soul crushed and destroyed. The key is, you know, the most important key more than our economy or anything else is to get Americans healthy again so that we can be resilient and that we can cope with these kind of crises.

• 41:52Speaker 00

  I think you're right, Bobby. I think you hit the nail on the head. You know, in COVID, you mentioned COVID. 63% according to a tough study of deaths and hospitalization from COVID could have been prevented by better diet. Because diet was driving these chronic diseases. And I think until we really grip, take a grip of that fact, that food and our food system is driving so many of the things that are wrong with our society, we're not going to be able to get out of this mess. We're going to be just sort of putting like, you know, putting, you know, a thumb in different holes in the boat while the boat is sinking or rearranging the dexters, the Titanic, you know, for example, for every dollar we spend on food, according to the Rockefeller Foundation study, there's $3 in collateral damage to increasing chronic disease burden,

• 42:31Speaker 00

  to the impact on social environments, to the effect on environment, biodiversity, our depleted water resources, our soil depletion, the climate change, all these downstream effects because of how we grow food, how we process food, how we market food, distribute it, eat food. All those things are things that are not being dealt with as a problem. They're just sort of dealing with all the things downstream like we're doing in medicine. You deal with diabetes or heart disease or autoimmune disease with medication instead of dealing with the root causes. So I'm really so excited to hear you talk about this because I think the only way for America to succeed going forward is that, is that we don't become burdened from this chronic disease epidemic

• 43:12Speaker 00

  that will affect every aspect of our ability to function in the world, our productivity. I mean, just, just when you think about the mental health crisis, I don't want to talk about this for a minute because I think it's very connected. And I think that most people don't understand why we're seeing such increasing rates of depression, anxiety, suicide. When I was seeing increased polarization, divisiveness in society, and dug into this research quite a lot, I wrote a book about this 50 years ago called The Ultra Mind Solution, which is how our bodies affects our mind and our brains functioning. And when we are inflamed, literally, and our brains are inflamed, it leads to all these things that we've been talking about, anything from autism to ADD, to anxiety, depression, and even things like Alzheimer's. So the brain's inflammation is what's driving so many of these brain disorders.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  And the productivity of people who have depression is the biggest cost. It was a macroeconomic analysis that was done that showed over the next 35 years, the direct and indirect costs of our healthcare crisis are going to cost $95 trillion. And the bulk of that wasn't people with diabetes or obesity, actually. It was the mental health crisis. It was depression, which resulted in the indirect costs of lost productivity, which was trillions of dollars a year. So I'd love to talk about this mental health crisis. I sent you a sort of a literature review that I did of how our food is affecting our brains. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on how we begin to sort of deal with this. It's not just, obviously, food, but it's also increasing isolation, loneliness, the endless

• 44:40Speaker 00

  amount of bad news we're seeing, and other stresses. So how do you begin to think about tackling this mental health crisis?

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, and I've also read a lot of science on the link between the microbiome and mood and brain, mental health and mental illness. And it's absolutely, one of the things that I'm doing is, one of my Peace Corps initiatives is going to be to launch a series of wellness centers in communities all over this country, particularly in rural communities. Today, rural communities, the biggest industry is often prisons. And prisons is when we get the kids when they're too late. Prisons, suicide, et cetera.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  So that's when it's too late. What I'm going to do is launch

• 45:35Speaker 01

  These, uh, these essentially wellness farms, although I'm doing them in the cities as well. I just toured one the other day in Utah that is just fantastic and so inspiring. But they're modeled on a, uh, a program that I saw in Italy that I visited many times called, uh, San Padre Nanos. And San Padre Nanos is a farm, 500 acres.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  It has vineyards, it has a winery where the people who, anybody can go there. If you're addicted to drugs, um, and, and, or alcohol and you can go there. You just have to make a five-year commitment and you go there for free. And you learn a trade. So in five years, it sounds like a long time, but we send our kids to college for four years. And, you know, this is better than college for a lot of kids. They, there's no screens there. Oh, there's no cell phones. There's no computers. You need, it's like old school. You need to start talking to other people and there's not a big medical infrastructure, psychiatrist and everything.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  It's really, you get reparented by your peers, you know, there's, there's codes of conduct. And, um, and they grow organic food. They very, very good food. They grow their own. You learn to people, some groups will learn to farm. There's a dog kennel where people learn to train animals and care for them. There is a factory for furniture where people learn that trade. There's an apparel factory. There's a wallpaper, hand painted wallpaper factory. And these are old artisans who teach people under kind of the mid medieval feudal apprentice system, where you apprentice under somebody who's an accomplished artist.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  They make, uh, they make purses, uh, for De La Valley, for Prada, for Gucci. They make some of the best wines in Europe. They make, uh, their bakery makes some of the finest breads in Tuscany.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Are famous there and it's and it's all free and you know, we need to be doing things. You go there, you live in nature and you get reparented. I was talking the other day to this Olympic skier or snowboarder, gold medal, three-time Olympian, gold medalist, Harbright. And we both came from big families. And we were talking about the fact that when, when, you know, if we were left inside with my brothers and sisters, it was like a Donnybrook, there'd be fistfights and you know, we had real fistfights when we were kids. When, you know, my family As soon as they set us outside, we'd all be best friends again.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  And you know, there's something about nature that does that, that gets you centered and it gets you, you know, it gets you back in connection with larger concepts with, you know, your spirituality.

• 48:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  And, um, and something peaceful and we need, and you know, that's what I hope to do with these arms, put people in nature, give them something, you, you get esteem, self-esteem by doing esteemable things. But, but just as importantly to have them raise their own food, organic food and, and then, and you know, Christopher Oliver Anthony, who, you know, did that, that famous song about Richmond from Richmond, is partnering with me on this.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we're, I'm very, very excited about it because we need to start healing this country in so many ways, not only the political divisions. Our children are in crisis. We lost 110,000 kids last year to drug overdoses.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  That's twice that we lost in the, in the 20 year Vietnam War. So, you know, there's a war now on our children and we need to, you know, we made a big investment in these kids. We need to get them back. And, and my program is designed to, you know, to install it. Instead of making foreign wars, we're going to, um, we're going to bring the kids home. You know, I'm for freedom, Mark, so I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna lift the, um, the federal regulations against, uh, sales of marijuana. The states are doing it all anyway. The federal government ought to be able to tax it.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  And I'm going to use the taxes from the, that, you know, from sales of marijuana, which is, you know, a, a drug,

• 50:25Speaker 01

  um, to, uh, to fund a program to actually heal kids from drug addiction, from alcoholism, from the, from suicide, mental illness. And, and eating good food is a critical part of that. And getting people in the habit of eating good food. And I love what you're seeing now in Bolivia where you're seeing those, you know, that the color coded.

• 50:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Uh, that, you know, the color coded food labels so people know I'm eating green, I'm reading, eating red.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Eating blue. And to give people of all classes, of all languages, a comprehensible way of saying, I'm gonna only feed my kid the good foods. I'm not gonna feed him bad foods.

• 51:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Well, instead of it uses the economy to incentivize, incentivize companies to make

• 51:17Speaker 01

  uh, food that actually makes you healthier because there's gonna, there'll be a, you know, we're not gonna regulate it. They don't need more regulations in this country, but we're going to inform the public. And then we're gonna use, I'm gonna use the bully pulpit of the presidency. The moral suasion of that to tell people, if you know, you're a mom, your duty to your kid is to feed them good food. Don't feed them the yellow foods. Don't feed them the, don't feed them the red foods.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. What do you think, Bobby, about the, the, the marketing of, of junk food and stuff on TV and also pharma? Those are the biggest advertisers on pharma. And I think we're in New Zealand, are the only ones to allow pharmaceutical advertising. I think which is driving so much of the, our health curations and also food advertising.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  I, I'm going to end pharmaceutical advertising on TV. With the food advertising, you know, what I'd like to do, but this will take legislation.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Warnings, like they do at the end of drug gas, right? This could kill you.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  You eat the Fruit Loops and you know, you're, uh, and you're, you're not, you're, you're, you're poisoning your child. So, you know, um, yeah, warnings. People should have informed choice and they don't have a choice. They have propaganda and that's, it's a, it essentially is a lie.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  It is, and I also think that, you know, that's important. People understand that, that so much of behavior is driven through marketing and advertising, whether it's, uh, on TV or online and it's, it's much more sophisticated, much more targeted now. And, and kids are predominantly targeted. I think there were over five billion embedded ads in games on Facebook for kids that were actually promoting junk food and processed food. Today, our kids' schools are the biggest fast food system in the country. If you combine McDonald's, Starbucks and Subway, we, our food system, schools provides more junk food than all those combined. And, uh, and it's really, again, driving so much of our mental health crisis. You know, we didn't see this when we were kids, Bobby.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  I didn't see kids with depression, anxiety and, uh, the massive ADD and trouble with school. And in, in, in the, in the school lunches have really have shifted into be basically outlets for fast food companies. How, how would you begin to think about that? Cause I think that's contributing both to the poor health as well as the, as the, uh, the mental health crisis we're seeing.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  I mean, that's actually something that the Department of Education has an $80 billion budget.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  And that's one of the things that it ought to be doing is to make sure that school lunches are healthy and that the food that we're giving to kids is directly related to their behavior, to their moods, to their performance in school. And, you know, to be able to tell people that you're much more likely to have kids who are in a learning atmosphere if they're not pumping up on sugar between and, you know, and all of these other poisons between classes that are that are making them behaviorally, you know, that are ruining their moods, their behavior and their learning capacity.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, there's Bobby, there was a school in Washington I heard about that was really interesting. It was a charter school started by a very wealthy guy. And it was really for kids who were underserved, who came from poor socioeconomic environments, who were often going to be more likely to end up in jail than go to college. And what they did with these kids was they not only just had a great academic curriculum, but they fed them three meals a day. The kids ate three meals of whole healthy food a day. And these kids did so well, they were going to Harvard, Yale, Ivy League colleges, they were succeeding. And then all the parents of the, you know, wealthier neighborhoods wanted to send their kids to school because they were all having such high, high performance standards on testing. And I think, you know, in terms of research, we should be doing that research on, on what happens when you take, you know, school and this one school

• 55:09Speaker 00

  gets this typical standard school lunches, which is fully junk food and sugar versus a whole foods lunch and breakfast and dinner for kids and seeing what the different academic performances is, behavioral issues are, aggression is in schools, where what their, what their other, other issues are on ADD and allergies and autoimmunity, all these things we're seeing, it would be such a simple thing to do, but we've never done it. We've never asked those questions. So I get very excited when I think about you starting to do these things with NIH, you know, in the NIH budget and their whole, you know, hundred plus page budget, food was only mentioned once, and that was in the context of the Food and Drug Administration, which is just makes me kind of crazy because it's the biggest thing that actually we can do to make a difference in our country's health.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that idea. I love, you know, the idea of being able to, I mean, to me, Mark, as you know, kids are the biggest, you know, kids ought to be the focus of everything in this country. We shouldn't be, you know, talking so much about going to war in Ukraine. It's $113 billion we're spending and.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  We've already committed to the Ukraine war and where, you know, President Biden wants to bring that up to 200 billion. Entire budget for EPA is 12 billion. Entire budget for the CDC is 12 billion. But we're spending, imagine if we had that money instead of spending it on weapons and wars and, you know, making war in another country. What if we brought it home and made a war on bad health? Oh, made that the target and made our children healthy again. How much better off America would really be if we were giving kids three meals a day at school.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  They were good food and that, you know, we had, we had good education. We have, you know, let's put them, apply the market to our education policies as well and make, you know, and, and allow charter schools like that. That are, if, if parents want to send their kids to another school, they ought to have a right to a better school.

• 57:18Speaker 00

  There are places where like they're, they're connecting the schools with farms and local rural communities that are growing, grow healthy food. And it's actually activating rural communities which are on the decline. They're, they're struggling, their, their farmers are going out of business to becoming bankrupt, there's suicides. So creating an agricultural system that's designed to actually produce better food will also help, you know, create all this downstream benefit of improvements in our, our children's health and our health and better quality food and also restore rural communities economically and socially and also have downstream consequences for the environment, which you've been working on your whole life, like better soil and less use of water and less use of chemicals and, and, and better effects on, on helping carbon capture with the soil, all from actually doing the right thing.

• 58:02Speaker 00

  Right now, we're doing all the wrong things and creating all these downstream consequences. And that can be flipped on its head and we can actually, I think even, you know, activate people to be engaged in farming, like, you know, Roosevelt did with the New Deal. He had the Conservation Corps and all these people who are underemployed or, or, or unemployed and activated them to actually be part of the community. I think Ron Finley did this in LA with food, with the Food Force, where he got more people who are homeless or, or just got out of prison or were prostitutes and started bringing them in and teaching how to garden farm in South Central LA. And then, and they're actually creating amazing amounts of food for their community and doing a lot of things that could be done and actually activating our, our society to be more engaged and connected to each other.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Oh, I agree with that. You know, we're, we're, I'm going to enlarge AmeriCorps to do exactly that, to give kids another option. And, you know, to go work on farms and grow organic food, and care for the elderly, and to, you know, get outside and do environmental repair. And all of the things that, you know, actually make people happy.

• 59:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's so great, Bobby. So as far as, you know, you've been sort of on the campaign trail, you've been talking about these issues. You, you also are a symbol of health, you know. I, I, when I met you, you were reactive. It was like you were in your early 50s. Now you're about to be 70. And you're always active, but your diet was a bit worse. We need to fix that up. But now, now you're out there, you know, pounding the pavement. You've got tons of energy. We're seeing all these Instagram, you know, videos of you doing, you know, 24 pull-ups, all these push-ups, and incredible bench presses and leg presses. You know, how do you, how do you think about fitness in America? And how do you, how do you, you know, do it for yourself so that you stay committed and engaged? And how's it impacted you?

• 59:47Speaker 01

  I mean, I have a couple of thoughts on that. I think people need to do what makes them happy. But we all need to stay in good shape. And that's important for not just ourselves, our individual lives, our satisfaction, our relationships with our family. But it's also important for our country to reduce the healthcare costs and to make sure that we're there, that we're, you know, in good shape to serve the public and to serve our community. Oh, it's, it's kind of a, a social obligation to try to keep yourself in shape. But whether you do that, like I do, I do hike it. I hike every day because I want to be

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  outside. And that gets me centered. Then I spend a half an hour in the gym every day. And that, you know, for me, works. But for other people, it may be yoga, it may be swimming, it may be running, whatever it is. But you have to be disciplined about it. And that, you know, discipline is important. It's how we're not here to be, be building a big pile for ourselves. Whoever dies with the most stuff wins. We're here to build something that's much more enduring than wealth, and that's character. And the way that we build character is by making commitments and then keeping them.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  And, you know, so for me, you know, I don't like going to the gym. I don't enjoy it. You know, I don't, it's not something that I look forward to, but I do it every day, whether I want to or not, because I made a commitment to myself and I'm just gonna keep that commitment. I, I, for me, it works to go to limit it to thirty, thirty-five minutes. Because I, I can never make the excuse. If I had, if I had to go for a full hour a day, there's times where I could say, I just can't do that. You can always find thirty minutes, you know, to do something. So I, I try to, I keep it short deliberately. I, I go in, I work really hard

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  for thirty minutes and then I get out. And I, I've been able to do that now for, said, two weeks, I'll be seventy years old. So I've been able to do it for most of my adult life. I, you know, I've, I've done something like that. And, but I think, you know, for me, look, I, I have seven kids. I just came back from ten days of skiing with them. And I'm able to generally keep up with them. And they're all very, very good skiers. I'm gonna go-

• 1:02:18Speaker 00

  Very good. Yeah, I've been skiing with you guys.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  I'm doing a political trip this week to Hawaii, and I'm gonna be, my son Finn is gonna come with me and we're gonna surf together. No, I can do that. I can go hiking every day. I can do, you know, I can play volleyball with them. I can, some of my kids like to play tennis and I, I can do that. I can stay on a tennis court with them. And I can be active and keep up with them. And I can go camping and, you know. And so I, I want that in my life. I don't want me, I don't want to be sitting on a couch for the rest of my life, you know, with a remote control in my hand, fighting with my family about what to watch. You know, because I want to watch the history show and the nature show

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  and they want to watch something else. And it's not a good thing for me to be sitting there. And, uh, so, but being outside is-

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  And being active, you know, for me, it just makes me happy and I, you know, I want to be where I want to watch my kids grow up. And that means.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  And also it's great for helping you with obesity and mental health too, right? So it's, it really has so many benefits personally and for your health and, and for your fitness.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  And I'll tell you what, Mark. I don't like eating healthy food. I'm gonna tell you. And I've, I've eaten your food, your great cook, but you need.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  If you don't have a live in cook, it's a lot of this stuff. I don't know what it is. I was thinking this before when I was talking to you.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Why does this stuff that, that tastes the best? Why does it, why is it so bad? Why are Twinkies so bad for you? Why did? How did evolution equip us to crave Twinkies and McDonald's french fries and, and Big Macs? Um, when they're so bad for you. It's, I guess.

• 1:04:15Speaker 00

  I can tell you why. I can tell you why. The, the, the food industry is designing foods to be addictive. They, they talk about the mouth feel and the bliss point of food and they know actually have, they've tested this, listening to functional MRI. So they know how to activate your dopamine centers, just like heroin or cocaine or, or nicotine or alcohol. And, and they actually now by strict criteria, according to a, a recent study, 14% of adults and 12% of kids meet the strict criteria for food addiction. And, and leading to all the same symptoms if you had like food, uh, alcohol addiction. Uh, and then alcohol addiction is about 14%. So it's a big issue. And, and we're designed evolution from an evolutionary point of view to find and eat as much sweet or sugar things as we can, because it makes us store fat and gain weight for the winter.

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  Uh, and animals do that. Bears do that. You know, I went to Adam and the Island in Alaska. And at the beginning of the season, the bears are all eating salmon, protein and fat, and they're not gaining that much weight. And then at the end of the season, they're eating berries and they gain 500 pounds. They become diabetic and hypertensive, but then they sleep it off. We just keep eating all winter long, you know? And I think our bodies and brains are designed to actually, uh, crave those things which are going to make us gain weight, which is a good thing if there was a time of scarcity and starvation, which is most of how we evolved. But now we have an overabundance of food. We have an overabundance of ultra-processed food. And in one study, I know, I don't know if you know about this study from the NIH, they gave people ultra-processed foods, say eat as much you want. And they gave people whole foods, say eat as much you want. Same people, they did a crossover trial. But when they had the ultra-processed food, they ate 500 calories more a day because

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  the body doesn't register as being satisfied eating that food. Like, no one's gonna eat a bag of arcatos, but anybody can eat a bag of chips or a bag of Oreo cookies, right? Because of the way it affects the brain. So I think, I think this is part of the issue is we have to start to recognize the science behind why these foods are so addictive, why we crave them so much, and to actually start to regulate these things so that we actually educate people about this process, about what's going on with their brains, and why they can't keep their bodies healthy, and why they're in this vicious spiral. And the Ozempic craze this year is driving me crazy because it's like, well, if we just, you know, give everybody Ozempic who's overweight in this country, and obese, I mean obese, it's gonna cost, you know, almost half of our entire healthcare budget, right? If we give everybody who's overweight, it's gonna be far more than the 4.3 trillion dollars

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  that we spend now. So we have to think about how do we, how do we change this? And I love your, your talking about this, Bobby, because unless we take this as a national emergency, in my view, unless we take this head-on, we're really gonna be unable to, to have a successful future as America. Everything else we want to do, our success as a country economically, our success as a, as a country to develop science and, and intellectual endeavors and to make progress, is all gonna be hampered if our, our bodies and brains are deteriorating because of what we're eating and, and the lack of, of our overall well-being and health.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I talked to you about that one time, because I was talking about the, you know, I could, I could take a mason jar, gallon mason jar full of honey, and I could eat it, and then I could do that every day for the rest of my life. And I said, why does my, why do I, you know, why did evolution hardwire me to want endless amounts of honey if it's not good for you? And you said, well, in the wild, when we evolved, it was really only available on these rare occasions when we stumbled on a beehive, you know, and brained the bees. There was a huge cost to getting the honey, because you had to get

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  stung 500 times. Now, and, but, we did it because, you know, it tastes good, it's worth it. And it's usually they have that big hive at the end of the, you know, they in the autumn. That's when they're maxed out on honey production. And that's when he want to start storing fat for the weekend for the for the winter. So that craving was actually served the biological for the winter.

• 1:08:11Speaker 00

  It's a good thing, yeah.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a good thing, but if if honey is available every single day of your life, it's not going to be good for you. And the same with sugar, the fruits only were, you know, bloomed. The only access to sugar was, you know, fruit, the fruit only bloomed, you know, at the end of the summer when you were storing weight again, and you couldn't get it all year. So it's okay to crave it all the time because you couldn't get it. But now that it's available all the time, it's.

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  It is a problem. I just came back from Africa, Bobby, I visited the Haza tribe, the hunter-gatherers, and 20% of their diet is actually honey. Uh, but they're thin and they're fit, they don't have diabetes. Why? Because they're eating 150 grams of fiber a day from all the tubers and the roots and all the wild plants they're eating. We in America eat about eight grams of fiber per day per person, which is nothing. And that fiber is so important for our microbiome. It's so important for reducing absorption of sugar. And and so you can actually eat more sugar carbohydrates if you have a very high fiber diet. It acts like a sponge. And that's part of the problem with ultra-processed food is no fiber in there. There's very few nutrients. It's mostly, I don't even know what you what you want to call it. I call Frankenfoods. Uh, they they they actually are depleted, they're depleted in truth.

• 1:09:25Speaker 00

  And most Americans are nutritionally deficient in omega threes and folate and zinc and magnesium and vitamin D and things that we should be getting from our food, but we don't. And so all this creates this dysregulated eating and dysregulated brain chemistry and dysregulated mood. And and it's really not that hard to fix. I've seen it over and over in my clinic, at Cleveland Clinic, in my own practice. I've seen it with so many people, my patients, and it doesn't take that long, you know. And I think people can do a reset and see their bodies change very quickly. Um, and I think, um, you know, we should call on America to do a a sugar reset or a 10-day diet reset to actually get people to try it and see what it feels like to just shift their body into a. Metabolic and brain chemistry state that isn't hooked into the system.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  You know, I just came back from, you know, 10 days in the Amazon with no phone, no computer, no technology, and no wifi, no cellphone, the EMAPs anywhere. And I slept so much better and I wasn't, my brain wasn't always like looking at my phone and in this state that it often is. And I think those kinds of things really are fixable if we take, take a stand. And I think, you know, I'm wondering, you know, what else you think for America we could do to make, make ourselves healthier?

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  I love that. I love what you're saying about the 10 day sugar detox. And, you know, I'm going to challenge Americans to do that. I, you know, that, that sounds like such a good idea. My, my uncle, when he was president, he, he came across a letter from the, a series of correspondence between the, the commandant of the, of the Marine Corps and, and Franklin Roosevelt, in which Franklin, or Teddy Roosevelt, this like 1903, and Teddy Roosevelt was saying, what, what is the, you know, what is the basic physical requirements for a Marine?

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  And the commander of the Marine Corps said they have to be able to walk 50 miles a single day. And I think it was with a 30 pound pack or 40 pound pack.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  And so my uncle then said, sent that correspondence to the current commander of the Marine Corps. And he said, can Marines today do that, physical accomplishment? And the Marines didn't have that kind of structure anymore. And my uncle then challenged the country to do a 50 mile walk. And he came to this cabinet meeting and he said, in my, the cabinet, he said, at least one of you guys has to do the 50 mile walk. And it was clearly intended for my father, who is, you know, the youngest.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  My father ended up doing it. It was really hard. I ended up doing it when I got out of college. I walked from Boston to Cape Cod.

• 1:12:03Speaker 00

  Amazing.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  It took me 17 and a half hours and I was really, I was shocked. I'm tired. I'm almost crying at the end of that. But I remember I was at David when my father came in, you know, from his 50 mile walk. He was, he walked on the CNO canal tow path.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  Where the mules used to go to, you know, tow the barges from Washington DC to Camp David. And when he came in, he had blisters on his feet and he was, he was the most tired I've ever seen him.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  And I remember my mother massaging his feet and, um, but you know, I like that kind of challenge. My uncle also did the, you know, the presidential council on physical fitness. And we had high school and grade school, we would get prizes for, uh, for doing a certain amount of pull ups, certain, I won the president's prize on physical fitness when I was in, you know, fourth, fifth grade. No, maybe it was, uh, fifth, fifth and sixth grade.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  And, uh, and you know, it was a challenge and he, and he, he focused on that and got Americans to focus on it. And he believed that America had, you know, we were the home of the free, the land of the brave. We were, we were supposed to be the toughest people on earth, you know, we were American wilderness had made us beef jerky tough. And now we were all getting soft and he was really, really distressed at that, that, you know, this softness that was coming out of America. And if he looked at what we look like today, um, you know, it would be a catastrophe. He would, he'd just been, he'd considered a natural catastrophe.

• 1:13:55Speaker 00

  You know, Bobby, you're right about this. And I think you, you're talking about the Marines and their fitness level. I, I'm not sure where this, but there's a, there's a group of over 700 retired admirals and generals are talking about our problem of mission readiness. And the fact that 70% of military recruits get rejected because they're overweight or unfit to fight. And then when we had school lunches started, it was because during war two, so many kids were malnourished and they couldn't join the army or the Navy or the military. And so we started school lunches and now those same school lunches are actually making the kids so unhealthy that, that they can't actually get in the military, even if they wanted to. And I don't know if you know this, but we saw 72% more evacuations from Iraq and Afghanistan.

• 1:14:35Speaker 00

  Because of obesity related injuries and problems than from in military than from more injuries. That's just staggering to me. And that was from this report from the retired admirals and generals. So I think, you know, we want to reduce our military. Obviously, we want to end forever wars. We want to not be constantly building up the military industrial complex. But just that fact alone of what we're doing to our kids is staggering. And I think that this physical fitness, health, nutritional fitness is so important. And it's got to be, it's got to be something that is a central part of our strategy as a nation looking forward to actually do whatever else you want to do. Like, we can't be a successful nation if we're all going downhill, you know?

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I'm gonna get the country back in shape again. I'm gonna, yeah.

• 1:15:22Speaker 00

  I'm gonna do fitness challenge and a diet challenge, a sugar challenge. I like that.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll do it. We'll do a diet challenge, you know, all of these toxic exposures that are destroying the health of our kids. I'm gonna do everything I can to eliminate them and I'm gonna do it. I might not be able to get every single one of them, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna start down that path and I'm gonna eliminate a lot of them. We're gonna have a healthier population very soon after I take the Oval Office.

• 1:15:53Speaker 00

  That's great. I mean, I know we talked about this, but I'm gonna put a link in the show notes to how people can get a chance to take a hike with you and I up in the hills of Los Angeles near our house, which was so fun. And we do that a lot when I come to LA. So I think we're gonna try to get people involved and connected and understand why it's important to support these kinds of ideas in the political discourse that we're not seeing anywhere else. So Bobby, thanks for your dedication to making America healthy, for making America really an incredible nation again, and stop this slide into what feels like our decline of the American dream. So thank you for just being so dedicated. And I encourage everybody to check out Bobby's website,

• 1:16:34Speaker 00

  kennedy24.com, see his campaign platforms. It's not just health, it's many, many other things. And, you know, don't listen to what you hear in the news. Do your own homework. Listen to what he says, read what he's talking about. And I think very few people out there are willing to take on what he's taking on in terms of the thinking that needs to be done to change our government in a way that actually brings us forward to a healthier and happier future. So any last thoughts or words, Bobby?

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  But thank you very much, Mark, and thanks for being a champion.

• 1:17:08Speaker 00

  Well, I wish I could be your birthday in a couple of weeks. I'm going to be in trekking in Patagonia near where we were rafting.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  I wish I was trekking with you in Patagonia.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, time more fun than a big birthday party inside, right? And and definitely we'll we'll keep people up to date. We might have you back on the podcast and talk about things as we go forward. But it's been great having you and thanks for keeping up the the the work you're doing to educate America about what we need you to go forward to be a healthier, happier nation.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  Thank you very much, Mark. Thanks for everything you do to educate the public and to get us healthier.

• 1:17:47Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Thanks for listening today. If you love this podcast, please share it with your friends and family. Leave a comment on your own best practices on how you upgrade your health and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark Hyman. And we'll see you next time on The Doctor's Pharmacy.

• 1:18:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

  This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center, my work at Cleveland Clinic and Function Health, where I'm the Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests' opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only. It's not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for helping your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner now. If you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, you can visit ifm.org and search their Find a Practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who is trained, who's a licensed healthcare practitioner, and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health.

• 1:18:48Dr. Mark Hyman?

  When it comes to supplements, you only want the best for your body, the kind with the highest quality, cleanest, and most potent ingredients you can get. That's exactly what you'll find at my supplement store, where I've hand-selected each and every product to meet the most rigorous standards for safety, purity, and effectiveness. These are the only supplements I recommend to my patients, and they're also what I use myself. Whether you want to optimize longevity or reduce your disease risk, or you're looking to improve your sleep, blood sugar, metabolism, gut health, you name it, drhyman.com has the world's best selection of top-quality, premium supplements, all backed by science and expertly vetted by me, Dr. Mark Hyman. So check out drhyman.com, because when it comes to your health, nothing less than the very best will do. That's drhyman.com, D R H Y M A N dot com.