324: It's Only When a Man Supremely Gives, That He Supremely Finds. Bayonets! Pt.2

0:00:00 - Opening 0:00:36 - "Bayonets!", by Joshua Chamberlain Pt.2 2:30:43 - How to stay on THE PATH. 2:49:33 - Closing gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 324 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. Also joining us again tonight is Jason Gardner. Good evening Jason.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Good evening Echo, good evening Jaco.

• 0:12Jocko Willink?

  So we rolled in, we're talking about this book and a middle of a dissection of the life of Colonel Joshua Chamberlain, or General Joshua Chamberlain, the hero of Little Round Top, the 20th Maine, who did a bunch of other things in his life. And one of the parts of this book that Jason, we were talking about before we got started was this letter from Joshua Chamberlain to Governor Coburn.

• 0:44Jocko Willink?

  This is from Headquarters 20th Maine, Volunteers in the Field, July 21st, 1863. And here's what Joshua Chamberlain says, and this gives you such a keen insight into his leadership and leadership. Dear Governor, I embrace a rare opportunity, namely a day's halt within a few miles of our baggage, to write you in reference to the affairs of our regiment in which I am well aware you feel the deepest interest. In the first place, allow me to thank you for the honor you have done me in entrusting my care, in entrusting to my care this noble regiment.

• 1:26Jocko Willink?

  I trust I shall be always worthy of the confidence you have thus placed in me. I consider it an officer's first duty to look after the welfare of his men. To this, he is bound no less by the responsibility which the arbitrary nature of his power imposes than by the regard he should have to the interests of the service in which he is engaged.

• 1:56Jocko Willink?

  My experience in several trying campaigns has taught me that the way to ensure the efficiency of the Army is to keep the men in the best possible condition, physically and mentally.

• 2:14Jocko Willink?

  So, take care of your people and your people will take care of you. So we used to say that about our gear.

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  Take care of your gear and your gear will take care of you because you know you got your parachute. You want to take care of your parachute. You got your dive rig. You got your weapon. You want to take care of your weapon. It'll take care of you. Take care of your people and your people are going to take care of you.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Without the people, there is no mission.

• 2:34Jocko Willink?

  There is no mission. Yeah. The, uh, that balance which occasionally gets brought up, how do you balance? What's more important, the people or the mission? Oh, the people. The people. Without the people, there's no mission. And if you have one mission that you're gonna do, I guess you can put the, put the mission above the people, but you're not gonna be in that situation.

• 2:57Jocko Willink?

  You're not. So the people come first.

• 3:01Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, this is important. If there is alignment in what you're doing, what your mission is, should help the people. So when you're in combat and you're going out and you're taking the fight to the enemy, well, guess what? Now, the, now you can win the war. Now you can get the people home to their families. Now we can protect the world from fascism or from Nazism or from the Imperial Japanese Army or from communism. That's what these things are doing. So when you're out there a soldier, you're taking care of your people by helping to win the war. Those should be aligned. That's why you had disalignment or unalignment in Vietnam where people are saying, hey, wait a second. Vietnamese aren't doing anything to me. I don't care if this is communist or not. It doesn't affect me.

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  And so we're not aligned. It's a problem. Some people, the people that were saying, hey, we, we believe in the domino theory. We think it's all gonna fall down. We need to stop communism here. Those people were aligned and were proactively fighting the war. Some people weren't. Same thing in a company. If I am trying to build a factory so that I can take my people and put them in a better situation where they have better working conditions, it's gonna help them.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  If I'm trying to get my team to sell more widgets, well, Jason, how many widgets do you sell? Well, I only sold three. Well, hey, Jason, you need to sell more. Why? Well, because I want you to be able to save money for college, for your kids. Oh, okay, yeah. So the better you do, the better we do. The better we do, the better you do. Because by the way, when you sell more widgets, we, and Echo sells more widgets, now we can produce more widgets that lowers our cost to produce. Now we can lower our prices, so you can sell even more widgets, so we can, so. The mission and the men should be aligned. The mission and the people should be aligned. The goals should help. If what I'm doing is saying, hey, Jason, sell more widgets, and you say, why? And I say, because I want to line my pockets more.

• 4:58Jocko Willink?

  What, we're not aligned. We're not aligned. But if I'm saying, hey, sell more widgets, so we can lower the price point, so you can have more job security, so you can, you know, get a down payment for your house, all those things. We want things to be aligned. When they're not aligned, that's when we're going to have problems.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Taking care of your people is not letting them come in late and leave early. Or letting them fall short of the standards. And, and so that, that's really interesting. I like how Hotworth broke it out, and I think in the Laugh Chapters of Steel, my soldier's heart, where he's warning guys about being popular. And folks want to be popular, ah, yeah, I'll just let them smoke cigarettes, because they want to smoke cigarettes on watch, and then, they get killed. Being popular is not taking care of your people. And when you try to maintain a standard, you're making them better people by bringing them up to a standard.

• 5:49Jocko Willink?

  It helps them. It helps them stay alive. The, the contrary to that is, or the opposite dichotomy of that is, hey, I'm just going to impose my rules on these people. They're not going to know why. They're not going to know how it helps them. They're not going to know that smoking in a, in a watch position at night can get you killed by a sniper. So instead, you just mandate these rules, and if you, hey, I don't care if I'm popular or not. That's not a good attitude to have. If you're not, look, you shouldn't be doing things to be popular, but if people don't like you, that work for you, that's also a problem. That's also a problem. And if that, what I just said, makes you shudder a little bit and think,

• 6:33Jocko Willink?

  you know, I'm not sure if I'm on board with that, you need to check yourself. Quite frankly, you need to check yourself.

• 6:39Jocko Willink?

  I haven't worked for a leader that was a good leader where everyone said, yeah, I don't like that guy. They might say something like, hey, man, he can be a bit hard, but

• 6:52Jocko Willink?

  he makes sense, but he's doing it for the right reasons, but sometimes we're a little bit too slack. The, the, the leader that, hey, we all hate him, but we're going to do what he says, doesn't really exist, man.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  No, well, at least you're not going to do it to the best of your ability, right? When I think about all those leaders that I worked hard for because I was like, I worked hard for this leader because I was worried he was going to yell at me. He got this much effort out of me. The leader that I worked hardest for was the person that I was terrified of disappointing. Like Delta Charlie.

• 7:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  And Del- and why, why in the world was I terrified of disappointing Delta Charlie? And, and, and every other leader that I put in that category? It's because they treated me with respect. That's all you gotta do. So treat everybody with respect and then your life is going to be that much easier. Especially your subordinates because they're going to work hard for you because they'll be terrified of disappointing you.

• 7:50Jocko Willink?

  And then, okay, well, what if they're just going to take advantage of you? Guess what? There's going to be some people that are going to try, there's going to be, you got a team of 20 people. There's going to be two or three of them that are looking to cut corners, looking to slack off. That's true. It's true in a SEAL platoon, for crying out loud. In a SEAL platoon where they go through hell week and they go through pods and they're highly selecting all that stuff. Yeah, some of those people get to a platoon, they don't want to do shit.

• 8:14Jocko Willink?

  They want to freaking cut corners. They want to go home early. They don't care. That, that's what happens. You get those guys in a platoon and they're not going to, they might not commit hanging offenses. Right? They might not like skip work or, you know, leave their weapon unattended or something like that. Which, okay, that if they're that bad, you can get rid of them, but they know where the line is and they just, they just tiptoe on that line.

• 8:39Jocko Willink?

  And so there's people like that. There's people like that in every organization. And if you then treat everyone in your organization as if they're that person that's trying to get away with what they can. And that's how you treat everyone. You're not treating with respect. You're micromanaging them and it's going to come back and haunt you.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  What's, so here's an interesting thing. It's like sometimes, sometimes I'm weak and I'm that guy trying to leverage a friendship against the standard. And then, then when, when a leader is like, no, bro, you gotta do it this way. I don't lose respect for them. I'm like, check. I'm just being weak. I'll get after it.

• 9:21Jocko Willink?

  I want examples, bro. What's an example of that? Oh, that's a good one.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Shoot, any like, um,

• 9:32Speaker 01

  want to come in late.

• 9:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  You know, or like, uh, maybe, maybe on this dive, I should be the, the dive. And here, here's a secret for everybody. SEALs don't like diving.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  And so guys will try and wiggle out of it and find other things to do and stuff like that. And, and, uh, so I know at times that I've tried to wiggle out of a dive and then I'll get that leader that just, all I gotta do is raise their eyebrows. Maybe they say something like, bro.

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Really?

• 10:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  No, not really. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go build my rig.

• 10:05Jocko Willink?

  That's like that story I've told about Delta Charlie. So Delta Charlie is a guy I wrote about leadership strategy and tactics. He's a guy that I work for in my second platoon. You work for him at Trade at, just like everyone, just a universal respect, admiration and love for the guy. But we, we had done a hydrographic reconnaissance it on Red Beach, like with, for the Marines. And you know, it's all nighter. The freaking waves were huge. We got our asses kicked. It's freezing. We go back. We make the chart in the middle of the night, blah, blah, blah. And then the Marines landed, so we support their landing and they didn't like their landing. It didn't go the way they wanted it to. So Marines like, we're doing it again. So everyone went back to the ships and they're like, okay, well SEALs, you gotta do the hydro recon again.

• 10:43Jocko Willink?

  And we're all like, oh, whatever. I mean, okay. So we launched the boats and we're kind of in the wall, like we're, we have all the information. We've already done the charts. We've done the graphs. And someone, thank God it wasn't me, is like, hey, are we actually going to do this recon?

• 11:03Jocko Willink?

  And Delta Charlie's like, well, we don't have to. And then he says, but would that be the right thing to do? And I was like, oh, I'm like, I'm so glad I didn't say that because no one wanted to do it. It's freaking freezing, dude. It's freezing. It's going to be a four hour evolution kicking through the surf and like being that guy. And actually this wasn't me because I was a radioman. So I was in the boat with the GPS like marking our spots. So I wasn't the one that was going to suffer, but the number four man or five man that's getting pounded by four foot waves for an hour as we do a freaking perpendicular or no, parallel recon off the flutterboard line.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  I hate to admit it, but I've had to heard swimmer scouts in like three times before I actually rolled out of the boat. Cause I didn't want to because it was so cold. The swimmer scouts in, can we get a little closer? Can we get a little closer? Get in, okay.

• 11:55Jocko Willink?

  So that's why we take care of our people. That's what we're talking about with this incredible leader, Joshua Chamberlain.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  There's a bunch of examples too, where we'll hit up where he's just treating his guys with the utmost respect.

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and I mean, just look at the way on, on the last podcast, we talked about the way he treated mutineers. The way he treated prisoner mutineers with respect, listened to what they had to say, said, okay, I got your back. And as soon as he said he was going to take care of them, they took care of him. So take nothing else away, freaking take care of your people.

• 12:34Jocko Willink?

  Going back to the book here, this is, this is from a, where he starts talking about military operations on the white oak road. The operations of the fifth corps on the white oak road. And once again, this is after he's coming back from

• 12:47Jocko Willink?

  five months of recovery and bear and getting sent back from the line after he got shot hip to hip arteries blown apart.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Snuck away.

• 12:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And they get hospitalized, get sneaks away to get back to the front.

• 13:02Jocko Willink?

  Fifth Corps on the White Oak Road, 31st of March, 1865. Were more serious in purpose and action than has generally been understood. He says, and again, I'm trying not to try, I'm trying not to talk through the entire scheme of maneuver on these things. It's much easier to do that visually than through the audio format. But just to give you some general understanding of the scenario. Lee's army during the previous winter had become much weakened by lack of supplies, desertions, and general demoralization of the Confederate cause, and Grant was determined to take decisive measures to break the whole Confederate hold on Virginia.

• 13:47Jocko Willink?

  He planned a vigorous movement to cut Lee's communications and also those of Richmond, and at the same time to turn the right flank of Lee's entrenched line before Petersburg and break up his army. Again, the reason we're still talking about Petersburg, which we talked about on the last podcast, is because that's a nine months of entrenched warfare, of trench warfare. The scope of Grant's intentions may be understood from an extract from his orders to Sheridan. So now we're talking about General Grant on March 28th, 1865. He says, "The 5th Army Corps will move by Vaughan Road at 3 a.m. tomorrow morning. The 2nd moves at about 9 a.m.

• 14:30Jocko Willink?

  Move your cavalry at as early an hour as you can, and passing to or through Dinwiddie, reach the height and rear of the enemy as soon as you can. It is not the intention to attack the enemy in his entrenched position, but to force him out if possible. Should he come out and attack us, or get himself where he can be attacked, move in with your entire force in your own way. And with the full reliance that the army will engage or follow the enemy as circumstances will dictate." So, the reason I wanted to point out this order is because think about, this is really good decentralized command. Hey, do this in your own way. Figure it out. I don't care. And we'll back you up.

• 15:15Jocko Willink?

  Cover and move. I shall be with you on the field and will probably be able to communicate with you. That's, that's not a great comms plan. I'll probably be able to communicate with you. Guess what? Should I not do so, and you find that the enemy keeps within his main entrenched line, you may cut loose and push for the Danville Road. If you find it practicable, I would like you to cross the south side road between Petersburg and Burksville and destroy it to some extent. After having accomplished the destruction of the two railroads, which are now the only avenues of supply to Lee's army, you may return to this army or go into North Carolina and join General Sherman.

• 16:00Jocko Willink?

  So, very broad strategic guidance about what he wants done, plenty of decentralized command happening there.

• 16:09Jocko Willink?

  It's good stuff. In his personal letter to General Sherman of March 22nd, giving the details of his plans for Sheridan's movements, he adds, "I shall start out with no distinct view further than holding Lee's forces from following Sheridan." That's the only thing he's trying to do. Like, that's a great, this is when we talk about commander's intent. That's the commander's intent right there. "I got no distinct view other than holding Lee's forces from following Sheridan." That's what I'm gonna do. "But I shall be along myself and will take advantage of anything that turns up." These are flexible, good plans.

• 16:44Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit.

• 16:48Jocko Willink?

  "Our whole division had arrived at the chapel, the chapel house, when at about noon my command was ordered to retrace its steps by the vaughn to the Quaker Road and push up toward the salient of the enemy's works near Burgess Mill." Again, if you want to pull out a map, go pull out a map and you can see exactly what that means. All this stuff is so well documented. "Fording the run and forcing the position, we soon developed a strong line which had entrenched itself as an advance post to cover the important point at Burgess Mill."

• 17:24Jocko Willink?

  After stubborn fighting for over two hours involving a loss to us of 167 killed and wounded, including some of our most valued officers, I don't know why he doesn't, he doesn't describe that battle in much detail in this section, other than the destruction that was caused. Including some of our most valued officers and a much heavier loss to the enemy of whom more than 100 killed and 50 wounded with 160 prisoners taken by a sudden countercharge fell into our hands, we pushed the enemy quite back to the White Oak Road and into their entrenchments behind it.

• 18:04Jocko Willink?

  On the 13th, the 5th Corps relieved by the 2nd moved to the left along Boynton Road, advancing its left towards the right of the enemy's entrenchments on White Oak Road. Lee, also apprehensive for his right, sent McGowan's South Carolina Brigade and McRae's North Carolina of Hills Corps to strengthen Bushrod Johnson's division in the entrenchments there.

• 18:29Jocko Willink?

  So, again, trying to set this up a little bit for you.

• 18:34Jocko Willink?

  The precise details of these orders and movements were, of course, not known to General Grant. So, General Lee's got stuff going on, which, you know, you just heard me kind of lay out. Of course, General Grant doesn't know what's, what's happening. But enough had been developed on the Quaker Road to lead Grant to change materially his original purpose of making the destruction of the railroads the principal objective of Sheridan's movements. At the close of our fight there, Grant had dispatched Sheridan. Our line is now unbroken from Appomattox to Dinwiddie. I feel, I now feel like ending the matter if possible before going back. I do not want you therefore to cut loose and go after the enemy's roads at present.

• 19:18Jocko Willink?

  In the morning, push around the enemy if you can and get onto his right rear. The movements of the enemy, of the enemy's cavalry may, of course, modify your action. We will act together as one army here until it is seen what can be done with the enemy. So he's making some adjustments to what his original plan were, still giving some, you know, some statement that the enemy gets a vote and you can modify your, what you're doing, you can modify your actions, is actually what he says.

• 19:51Jocko Willink?

  And you know, part of the reason I'm going through some of these commands because it's it's interesting to hear what these orders were like and how they came across and the importance of writing well and being able to write things in a simple, clear, concise manner that everybody understands. So important. It's also important to realize that no matter how clearly you think you articulate something, the chances of that person having it and understanding it in exactly the manner that you wish to convey it are not strong, which

• 20:31Jocko Willink?

  is again, another proactive reason to maintain flexibility in what you're telling people to do. And if you give them what the objective is, look, it's a lot, it's a lot easier for me to tell you, hey, Jason, we're trying to get to this hill over here. That's, it's pretty hard. I want you to seize this hilltop. It's hard for you to misinterpret what I say. Hey, go seize this hilltop. You need to go take that hilltop. Okay. Well, you know what you're doing. Now, if I start saying, hey, I want you to take that hilltop and I want you to maneuver in this direction. Plus, I want you to set this up over here. Now there's a bunch of things that can get misinterpreted.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, or we need to lay artillery fire down on this thing. Get me to a good spot to lay artillery fire and then I can choose the hilltop that makes the most sense for me.

• 21:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, simple, clear, concise. That concise piece is a real thing. When you start talking too much and trying to convey too much, and there's a balance, of course, you know, like, take the hill. That might not be enough. If I say, take the hill in order to provide artillery support to this spot, now you can make all kinds of things happen.

• 21:47Jocko Willink?

  Communication. Um, fast forward a little bit. My command was the extreme left of our lines. My own brigade along the difficult branch of gravel rerun facing toward Aries with the, and that's another, another leader out here, with Gregory's brigade, which had reported to me for this campaign, refused, which is a term that meant bent back at right angles so as to face westerly along a country road leading from Boyden to Clareborne Road. And this is where we can start to get into a little bit. It may seem strange that in such a state of things, Warren should have been made, should have made the suggestion for a movement to his front, but he was anxious, as were all his subordinates, to strike a

• 22:32Jocko Willink?

  blow in the line of our main business, which was to turn Lee's right and break up his army. Wet and worn and famished as we all were, we were alive to the thought that prompt, that promptness and vigor of action, what we like to call violence of action, would, at all events, determine the conditions and chances of the campaign. And if this movement did not involve the immediate turning of Lee's right in his entrenchments, it would secure the White Oak Road to the west of them, which Grant had assured Sheridan was of much importance and would enable us to hold Lee's right in check so that Sheridan

• 23:15Jocko Willink?

  could either advance on White Oak Road towards us and Burgess Mill, as Grant asked him to do, or make a dash on the south side railroad and cut their communications and turn their right by a wider sweep, as Grant had also suggested him do. Late in the afternoon, Warren received through General Webb, Chief of Staff, the following order. General Meade, General Meade directs that should you determine by your reconnaissance that you can gain possession of and hold White Oak Road, you are to do so, notwithstanding the order to suspend operations today.

• 23:53Jocko Willink?

  So he's getting told, okay, you go do a reconnaissance. This is what Warren's getting told. Go do a reconnaissance. If you think that through your reconnaissance, you can take White Oak Road and you can hold it, then do it unless we tell you not to do anything today. Okay. And so

• 24:15Speaker 01

  This just turns into the biggest. I had a hard time. Like he's trying to explain to us how much confusion was going on there.

• 24:22Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh my gosh.

• 24:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that's

• 24:25Speaker 01

  I'm trying to track the confusion and I'm getting confused.

• 24:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Like, I guess I didn't even need to say like, hey, this is going to be confusing and it's hard to track. Even if you go watch the video on YouTube with the animated pieces from 40,000 feet, showing you, I'm gonna watch that again. Wait, who is this over here? But so he gets told, hey, if you think you can take it, take it. And this is, this is what Chamberlain writes, "This gave a sudden turn to dreams. In that humiliation, fasting and prayer visions arose like prophecy of old. We felt the swing and sweep. We saw the enemy turn front and flank across the White Oak Road, Sheridan flashing on our wheeling flank, cutting communications, enfilading the Claiborne

• 25:12Jocko Willink?

  entrenchments, our second corps over the main works, followed up by our troops in the old line, seizing the supreme moment to smash in the Petersburg defenses, scatter and capture all that was left of Lee's army and sweep away every menace to the old flag between us and the James River. Mirage and glamour of boyish fancy, measuring things by its heart. Daydreams of men familiar with disaster, drenched in famished, but building as ever, castles of their souls above the level river of death."

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  What a way to say, "Hey, bro, don't get your hopes up too high." This is when your, what is it, your, your emotions outweigh your capability. What's that, that term? The capability. Don't let your enthusiasm outrun your capability. That's what he's talking about here. Hey, if we, if we go, man, we can take White Oak Road, we can freaking cut the lines. We're gonna do it all. We're gonna win it all. Daydreams of men familiar, this was scary. Men familiar with disaster. These are hardened combat veterans and they're drenched and famished.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  But they build castles of their souls above the level river of death. Such a good warning to us. Don't let your enthusiasm outweigh your capability. It was mingled with feelings of mortification, apprehension and desperation. That in the very ecstasy of these visions, word came to us of Sheridan's latest dispatch to Grant. The evening before, that Pickett's Division of Infantry was deployed along the White Oak Road. His right reaching to five forks and the whole Rebel cavalry was massing at that place.

• 27:10Jocko Willink?

  So Sheridan would be held in check by them instead of dashing up, as was his want, to give a cyclone edge to our wheeling flank. Grant's dispatch to Meade transmitting this was a dire disenchantment. The knell rang thus. From this dispatch, Warren will not have the cavalry support on his left flank that I expected. He must watch closely his left flank. So now we're getting told, we're all excited and now we're being told, "Oh, no, you're not gonna have any support." And this is, this is the ups and downs of war, right? The highs and lows of combat. It's a go. It's a not a go. It's a go. It's not a go.

• 27:59Jocko Willink?

  Although Grant had given outward that there should be no movement of troops that day, Lee seems not so to have. Lee seems not so to have resolved.

• 28:12Jocko Willink?

  So, the enemy gets a vote. Hey, we don't think there's gonna be any movement this day. Lee didn't agree with that. Lee didn't, Lee wasn't part of that plan.

• 28:21Jocko Willink?

  Driven to seize every advantage or desperate expedition, he ordered four brigades to move out from their entrenchments, get across the flank of the fifth corps and smash it in. We did not know this, but it was the very situation which Grant had made for the occasion for attacking ourselves. It was a strange coincidence, but it was to both parties a surprise. The enemy gets a vote. That's what's happening. This was the condition of things and of minds when the advance ordered for the White Oak Road was put into execution. Ares advanced soldier-like, as was his nature, resolute, firm-hearted, fearing nothing, in truth, not fearing quite enough.

• 29:08Jocko Willink?

  Although he believed his advance would bring on a battle, he moved without skirmishers, skirmishers, but in a wedge-like formation guarding both flanks. The enemy onset was swift and the encounter sudden, the blow fell without warning enveloping Ares' complete front. General Hunton says they were not expecting to strike our troops so soon and that the attack was not made by usual orders, but that on discovering our advance so close upon them, a gallant lieutenant in his brigade sprung forth in the front of his line, waving his sword with the shout, "Follow me, boys!"

• 29:48Jocko Willink?

  Whereupon all three brigades on their right dashed forward into the charge.

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  There's a little decentralized command.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Well, that's the reverse of what what happened on Little Round Top, right? They do a bayonet charge, they they destroy a numerically superior force because they took them by surprise. And here, the Confederates doing it to them. They're like, and actually, they're like, oh, well, they didn't do it by the normal, they got in that echelon. And so there's a little bit of complacency there, which will always get you.

• 30:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that'll always get you. Luckily, you got some young lieutenant that sees what's happening and says, you know what, I'm gonna make something happen. We're going on the counter. Follow me, boys. Winthrop was overwhelmed and his superior and his supporters demoralized. All he could hope for was to retire in order, meaning retreat. That's what he's hoping he'd be able to get out of there. This he exerted himself to effect. But this is not an easy thing to do when once the retreat is started before a spirited foe, superior numbers, or in the flush and rush of success. So.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  It's a Confederate guy that the decentralized command had just charged them, right?

• 31:07Jocko Willink?

  Uh, yes.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  And then that just broke them.

• 31:10Jocko Willink?

  The, the, and now you've got the Union saying, oh, we got to retreat. Like, we're screwed. Um, which is bad. And then he talks about, yeah, well, it's worse. And he said he's this, this Winthrop, all he can hope for is that they can get out of there, like, not losing control. And he says, he tries to make that happen. But it's not an easy thing when the retreat is started before a spirited foe, superior number. So there's more Confederates, they're fired up, they're flushed from having been like, they got momentum going on. And in vain, the gallant Dennison strove to stem the torrent. A disabling wound

• 31:55Jocko Willink?

  struck down his brave example. And the effect of this shows how much moral forces have to do in sustaining the physical. So you've got a gallant individual that's trying to get to stop people from just running away. Because if you just run away, you're going to take massive casualties. Look, if you retreat, you're going to take casualties. But to put it in very simple terms, if you don't cover and move as you retreat, you're going to get slaughtered. So you've got to say, okay, you know, platoon over here, you guys lay down fire. We'll go back 50 yards, then we'll lay down fire for you. You have to do that. If you just all get up and turn tail, you're just going to get shot in the back and you're going to get slaughtered.

• 32:36Jocko Willink?

  So he's, the leadership is trying to, trying to make that happen, trying to make it an orderly retreat. And this, this individual is stepping up, trying to like, okay, hey, platoon, hold. And all of a sudden he gets shot. And then he says that the, this effect shows the moral, how much more the moral forces have to do than sustaining the physical. So when that happens, it just falls apart. Brigade after brigade broke in that instant. Brigade after brigade broke. That strange impulse termed a panic took effect and the retreat became a rout.

• 33:20Jocko Willink?

  Aries, like a roaring lion, endeavors to check the disorder and make a stand on each favoring crest and wooded ravine, but in vain. His men stream past him. Oof. So he's, every time he gets a little terrain feature, Aries steps up and, hey, hold up. Hey, let's get some cover fire. They just run by him. They come back on Crawford's veteran division and burst through it in spite of all the indignant Kellogg can do involving this also in the demoralization. And the whole crowd comes back reckless of everything but to get behind the lines on Boynton Road,

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  plunging through the swampy run, breaking through Griffin's right where he and Barlet reformed behind the third brigade. So finally, they run back behind friendly lines. The enemy pursuing swarm down the bank opposite us and are met by sharp fire of musketry and artillery, which we had made ready on hearing the noise of the retreat. So, once the people that are retreating get behind friendly lines, Union lines, now the enemy's coming after them and they engage. We were expecting them to fall in force on our left and Gregory's front. When I was riding along that line anxious about this, when General Warren and General Griffin

• 34:43Jocko Willink?

  came down at full speed, both out of breath, breath, with their efforts to rally the panic-stricken men whose honor was their own and evidently under great stress of feeling. So now you got General Warren and General Griffin come down on their horses that are out of breath and, and they're trying to rally the guys, because it's their guys. He says, "Whose honor was their own." It's their guys that are retreating. Griffin breaks forth first and after his high-proof fashion, "General Chamberlain, the 5th Corps is eternally damned."

• 35:18Jocko Willink?

  "I essayed some pleasantries, not until you are in heaven."

• 35:24Jocko Willink?

  Griffin does not smile nor hear, but keeps right on. "I, I tell Warren, you will wipe out this disgrace, and that's what we're here for."

• 35:35Jocko Willink?

  "Hey, it's all on you, bro. It's all on you, Chamberlain. We're, we're, we're damned."

• 35:43Jocko Willink?

  Then Warren breaks out with stirring phrase, but uttered as if in delirium of fever, "General Chamberlain, will you save the honor of the 5th Corps? That's all there is about it." "That appeal demanded a chivalrous response. Honor is a mighty sentiment, and the 5th Corps was dear to me. But my answer was not up to keynote. I confess that. I was expecting every moment an attack on my left flank, now that the enemy had disclosed our situation and my little brigade had taken the brunt of things thus far, but the day before the last, winning a hard-fought field from which they had come off grievously thinned and torn and worn, and whence I had hardly but fought myself that day."

• 36:27Jocko Willink?

  Or sorry, but I had hardly brought myself away. So he barely made it off the last battlefield. And we already talked about his casualties. He didn't talk much about the previous battle, but they had already taken a couple hundred or almost a couple hundred casualties. And he barely made it off. I mentioned Bartlett, who had our largest and best brigade, which had been but little engaged. We have come to you. You know that, you know what that means.

• 36:54Jocko Willink?

  I'll try it, General. Only don't let anybody stop me except the enemy.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Right on.

• 37:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So they've been put in check a bunch of times. You know, hey, hold what you got. Not just in this battle, but there's some specific moments when that happens where they're getting held back, held back, held back. And he says, you know, I'll try, but don't let any, anybody stop me but the enemy. I had reason for that protest as things had been going on.

• 37:24Jocko Willink?

  They say back to him, I will have a bridge ready here in less than an hour. You can't get men through this swamp in any kind of order, says Warren. It may do to come back on, General. It will not stop. It will, it will not do to stop for that now. My men will go straight through. So they want to bring like one of those pontoon bridges down? Chamberlain, hey, in an hour we'll have you a pontoon bridge. Otherwise you're not going to be able to do it. That'll do to come back. We'll come back on that bridge when we're done.

• 37:53Jocko Willink?

  So at a word, the first battalion of the 198th Pennsylvania, Major Glenn commanding plunges into the muddy branch waist deep and more with cartridge boxes borne upon the bayonet sockets above the turbid waters. The second battalion keeping the banks beyond clear of the enemy by their well-directed fire. We got cover and move going on, by the way. Until the first has formed in the skirmish order and pressed up the bank, I followed with the rest of the brigade in the line of battle and Gregory's in column of regiments. The enemy fell back without much resistance until finding supports on broken, strong ground. They made stand after stand. Griffin followed with Bartlett's brigade in reserve.

• 38:36Jocko Willink?

  In due time, Ares troops got across and followed up on our left rear while Crawford was somewhere to our right and rear, but out of sight or reach after we had once cleared the bank of the stream.

• 38:51Jocko Willink?

  After sharp fighting here, we drove them across an extensive field to some works they seemed to have already prepared of the usual sort in field operations, logs and earth, from which they delivered a severe fire which caused the right of my line to waver, taking advantage of the slight shelter of a crest in the open field I was preparing for a final charge when I received an order to halt my command and defend my position as best I could. I did not like that much. It was a hard place to stay in. The officer who brought me the order had his horse shot under him as he delivered it. So here you are, you're ready to make a charge and all of a sudden they say, hey, hold what you got. And by the way, the person that's telling you to stay there just had his horse shot out from under him.

• 39:35Jocko Willink?

  I rode back to see what the order meant. I found General Griffin and General Warren in the edge of the woods overlooking the field and reported my plans. We had already more than recovered the ground taken and lost by the second and third divisions. The fifth Corps had been rapidly and completely vindicated. And the question was now of taking White Oak Road. So they've gotten back all the ground, the fifth Corps. Hey, we delivered. You wanted me to rectify the honor lost by the brigade, by the Corps, sorry? We did it.

• 40:08Jocko Willink?

  And he says, I proposed to Gregory, to put Gregory's brigade into those woods by battalion and echelon by the left, by which formation he could take in flank and reserve in succession, any attacks on my right. When Gregory should be well advanced, I would charge the works across the field with my own brigade. My plan being approved, I instructed Gregory to keep in the woods. So, it's another great example of pushback. They tell him, hold, he goes, wait a second. They're not seeing something that I'm seeing, goes back and talks to his leadership and says, I got a better idea. How about this? And they say, get some.

• 40:48Jocko Willink?

  And the moment he struck any opposition to open, oh, this is another part of the plan was at the moment, this was for Gregory, the moment he struck any opposition to open at once with full volleys and make all the demonstration he could, and I would seize that moment to make a dash at the works in my front.

• 41:06Jocko Willink?

  Had I known of the fact that General Lee himself was personally directing affairs in our front, I might not have been so rash or thought myself so cool. So he comes up with this plan and later he finds out those General Lee was going up against. Damn.

• 41:22Jocko Willink?

  And now it gets down to business. He says, "What we had to do could not be done by firing. This was foot and hand business. We went with a rush, not minding ranks or alignments, but with open front to lessen loss from long range rifles. Within effective range, about 300 yards, the sharp cutting fire made us reel and shiver. Now, quick or never, on and over, the impetuous 185th New York rolls over the enemy's right and seems to swallow it up. The 198th Pennsylvania, with its 14 companies, half veterans, half soldiers born

• 42:01Jocko Willink?

  so, swing in from their left, striking Huntington's Brigade in the front. And for a few minutes, there is a seething wave of counter currents, then rolling back, leaving a fringe of wrecks, and all is over. We pour over the works, on across the White Oak Road, swing to the right and drive the enemy into their entrenchments along the Claiborne Road, and then establish ourselves across the road facing northeast and take a breath."

• 42:34Jocko Willink?

  There's a footnote in here. General Huntington, since Senator from Virginia, said in his testimony before the Warren Court, speaking of this charge, the charge that he led, the charge that Chamberlain led, "I thought it was one of the most gallant things I had ever seen."

• 42:56Jocko Willink?

  Major Woodward in his history of the 198th Pennsylvania giving a graphic outline of the last dash closes with an incident I had not reported, recorded. Only for a moment, he says, did the sudden and terrible blast of death cause the right of the line to waver. On they dashed, every color flying, officers leading, right in and among the enemy, leaping the breastworks, a confused struggle of firing, cutting, thrusting, a tremendous surge of force, both moral and physical, on the enemy's breaking lines, and the works were carried. Private Augustus Zebra captured the flag of the 46th Virginia in mounting one of the

• 43:39Jocko Willink?

  parapets and handed it to General Chamberlain in the midst of the melee, who immediately gave it back to him, telling him to keep it and take the credit that belonged to him. Almost that entire regiment was captured at the same time. It was scarcely need be added that the man who captured that battle flag was sent with it in person to General Warren, and that he received a Medal of Honor from the government.

• 44:09Jocko Willink?

  So again, the representation of these flags is, it means-

• 44:13Speaker 01

  That and the fact that

• 44:18Speaker 01

  zebra cat, zebra, is that?

• 44:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, zebra, zebra, zebra. Augustus.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Augustus, Augustus Groot. Zebra captures the flag and then he's like, hey, man, you got it. You keep it. Nobody misses that. Nobody. They're like, oh, that's the guy that's, that's letting the team have the credit. And they're, that's the kind of leader that you're gonna die for, that you're gonna be afraid of disappointing because he's pushing it. And there's just example and after example of him doing that kind of thing.

• 44:52Jocko Willink?

  Yep, that's literally what you said. It's the, the, the, the flag, the symbol of the enemy is this thing, this flag. That's all the credit. That is the credit. And he, and the, the young soldier gives him the credit. And he says, no, you get the credit.

• 45:18Jocko Willink?

  In due time Gregory came out of the woods, his face beaming with satisfaction at the result to which his solid work so faithfully performed had been essential. By the way, this is just a giant cover move. Gregory's over in the wood line, laying down fire. As soon as they got to a point where they had good angle, they let loose the fire and that was Chamberlain's signal to go and they went.

• 45:40Jocko Willink?

  That's why there's no other tactic. That's it. "His brigade was placed in a line along the White Oak Road on our right and a picket thrown out close up to the enemy's works. This movement had taken three hours and was almost a continuous fight with several crescendo passages and a final cadence of wild chromatic sweeps settling in the steady keynote, thrilling with the chords of its unwritten overtones and undertones. It had cost us a hundred men, but this was all too great of men like these and for oblivion.

• 46:15Jocko Willink?

  It was to cost us something more, a sense of fruitlessness and thanklessness."

• 46:27Jocko Willink?

  Fast forwarding a little bit. "Grant had experienced a sudden change of mind, mind, a complete and decided one. His imperative order now received meant giving up entirely the position we had just been ordered to entrench across the hard-won White Oak Road."

• 46:49Speaker 01

  And that, I mean, after this, it just turns into a huge mess, which would take like three hours just to try and untangle.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  And I guess the biggest example of it is just really, really poor communication, information coming in at weird times.

• 47:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we'll jump into that. It's worth jumping in. That's one of the reasons I kind of felt like I had to sort of try and explain some of the maneuver, the scheme of maneuver.

• 47:19Jocko Willink?

  So that we could, when we get to the kind of breakdown of all these orders that were coming in, when they came in, it's, and this is another one of those orders, which is, hey, give up that, what you just fought for, that's the fruitfulness that he just talked about, here's why. And it goes, then it says, Warren, anxious to fulfill the spirit and object of the order, rather than render a mechanical obedience to the letter of it, sends his nearest division, under Ares, the strong, stern old soldier of the Mexican war, to start once, at once, for Sheridan. The mean, uh, sorry, this situation, this was the situation, when half past 10 in the evening came an order throwing everything into a complete muddle.

• 48:02Jocko Willink?

  It was from me to Warren, send Griffin promptly as ordered by the Boynton Plank Road, but move the balance of your command by the road Bartlett is on, and strike the enemy in the rear who is between him and Dinwiddie. So now you can see, now the orders are becoming very, very specific. Actually telling this person to go to this place and do this thing. Instead of letting the people on the ground, hey, my intent is to get to the rear of the enemy. If you said that to me, oh, cool, I got a group that's even closer, or a group that didn't take that many casualties, or a group where I got a super aggressive leader and he can make it happen. But you're, when you give these very specific micromanaging directions, you're going to impose things on that you might not have intended.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  It, you know, who's the person best to solve the problem? The guy back in the tent, or the person closest to the problem? And that, that's what you're empowering those folks to do, and you're like, hey, here's what we need to do, and then you figure out, because it's just, it's all these specific orders coming in, flipping guys around.

• 49:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and if you, and if you see something or know something from the tent, that the person in the front can't know or can't see, then it's your job to inform them of that, so that they can put that into the calculus of their decision-making process. Patton said the, I don't know the exact quote, but the leader on the front is always wrong. The leader in the front is always right. The leader in the front is always right. So you support that guy. Jason calls back and says, hey, I need air support. Cool. I'm getting your air support. You tell me you need another platoon support? Cool. We're sending another platoon. I'm not saying, well, why do you need that? If I, if you say, hey, I'm going to maneuver to the north instead of the south. Okay. Let me make sure you have the support you need. Not, well, I actually think it would be better to.

• 49:42Jocko Willink?

  Unless I see, hey, Jason, there's a massive enemy force coming in from the west. You need to see her clear there. Oh, thank you for telling me.

• 49:56Jocko Willink?

  Another, by this order, the corps was to be turned end for end and inside out. Poor Warren might be forgiven if at such an order, his head swam and his wits collapsed. He responds thus, and has been much blamed for it by those under his canvas then since. I issued my orders on General Webb's first dispatch to call back, which made the divisions retire in the order of Ares Crawford and Griffin, which was the order they could most rapidly move in. I cannot change them tonight without producing confusion that will render all my operations nougatory. I will now send General Ares to General Sheridan and take General Griffin and General Crawford to move against the enemy

• 50:38Jocko Willink?

  at this last dispatch to Rex. I should, I cannot accomplish the object of the orders I have received. He says, look dude, I've already got people in a certain order out here. If I start trying to rearrange them in the middle of the night, are you kidding me? No.

• 50:56Jocko Willink?

  But what inconceivable addition to the confusion came in the following dispatch from General Meade to Warren at one o'clock at night? Would not time be gained by sending troops by the Quaker Road? Again, this is my bad micromanagement happening.

• 51:13Jocko Willink?

  One of the very first academy briefs that I did on the academy was about, I called it the whip. And yeah, I talked about, we were on the ARGs, we're on a ship. And we're supposed to be doing some training mission. And we get told, hey, you're going to take your Zodiac boats and load them on a helicopter and, and go do this mission. Okay, cool. So what does that mean? It means about four or five hours of preparation Zodiacs. We got to get the the mo gas fuel to the right part of the ship. We got to get the

• 51:54Jocko Willink?

  the equipment prepped and loaded into the Zodiacs. Then we got to get the Zodiacs moved up to the helo deck. And then we, and we got to tie them all up with all that freaking 10,000 feet of half inch and one inch tube of your nylon, put the honeycomb cardboard into the bottom and pack the freaking engine into it. Like there's this massive amount of work. We're doing it.

• 52:19Jocko Willink?

  And then we get word, hey, actually you're not going by helo, you're going by rib boat, rigid home inflatable boat. Okay, so we start breaking all that stuff down. It takes us another five hours to break it down and get these Zodiacs ready to launch with the ribs. Just as we complete that task, what comes back? Actually, it looks like it's going to be helos. So this is some

• 52:42Speaker 01

  I've lived that same

• 52:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's a nightmare. And I call it the whip because it's a little tiny movement up at the top. It's just a little, oh, we're going to use helos. Okay, he literally changes one word in a brief, insert by helos, insert by rib. Changes one word in this little briefing, takes him four seconds. And it costs us five hours of work. And then very quickly changes it back to ribs, back to helos. And so as leaders, we have to understand the impact that the little movement you have from the top takes on the bottom.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Who, who, who corrected that?

• 53:14Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I think we like DLR'd on the like fourth change. Like, no, actually, I just,

• 53:21Jocko Willink?

  I think my platoon commander was like, hey, we, we don't have time. We can't actually do that. The only thing we can do is launch on whatever it was. I think at that point it was on ribs. We can't, we don't have time to get helos ready. What do you mean you don't have time? It takes five hours to rig four boats for freaking.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's interesting and that's

• 53:41Speaker 01

  one of those things where

• 53:43Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I just raised your, I just raised your blood pressure.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Because I've, I've lived that where they, like, somebody comes out of this air-conditioned space where they're doing it and they're like, I lived that in Guam. It's like, hey, we're gonna do a stacked duck.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  And we get all the way to where we get the jump master to come do a stacked duck is when we have, we're gonna jump two Zodiacs via parachute and, and the rest of us are gonna parachute and then it turns into the limp duck where now it's not gonna get parachuted in, but it's just gonna get pushed out the back of a helicopter. It's gotta get re-rigged completely. And everything changes and you're just getting flailed around. And, and that's when mistakes happen and that's when it's good that, that like, hopefully there's somebody in there in, in the decision-making process. It's like, hey, you're jerking everybody around right now. That's detached because the guys that are, that are making these calls, they don't realize it. They're just coming up with a bunch of good ideas.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  And they've forgotten what's happening at the end of the, that whip that they're waving around.

• 54:50Jocko Willink?

  Continues on here. Rapidly changing plans and movements in affecting the single purpose for battle

• 54:59Jocko Willink?

  for which battle is delivered are what a soldier must expect. The, and the ability to form them wisely and promptly illustrates and tests military capacity. But the condition in this case rendered the execution of these peculiarly perplexing. Orders had to pass through many hands. And in the difficulty of delivering owing to distance and the nature of the ground, the situation was called, which called for them had often entirely changed. Hence, some discretion as to the details in executing a definite purpose must be accorded to subordinate commanders. Decentralized command, thank you.

• 55:41Jocko Willink?

  The details in executing a definite purpose, the purpose needs to be definite. This is what we're doing. The details of execution, let the subordinate commanders do it.

• 55:53Jocko Willink?

  Look for a moment at the summary of the orders Warren received that evening, even after we had reached White Oak Road affecting his command in detail. One, to send a brigade to menace the enemy's rear before Sheridan. But he had already, but he had already of his own accord, set Bartlet's brigade of Griffin's division, the nearest troops by the nearest way. He already had that problem handled. Two, send this brigade by the Boynton Road instead of the Crump. This was a very different direction and a very different tactical effect, but impossible to recall Bartlet, Warren sent Pearson already on Boynton Road with a detachment of Bartlet's brigade. Three, send Griffin's division by Boynton Road to Sheridan

• 56:38Jocko Willink?

  and draw back the whole corps to that road. Griffin's division being widely and far scattered and impossible to be collected for hours, Warren sends Ares division nearest and most disengaged. Four, to send Ares and Crawford by the way of Bartlet had gone and insisting on Griffin's going by Boynton Road. This would cause Ares and Bartlet to exchange places, crossing each other in a long, difficult and needless march. Ares having gone according to Warren's orders, Griffin and Crawford were to go by Bartlet's way. But Griffin had sent for Bartlet to withdraw from his position and join the division ready to mass on Boynton Road.

• 57:21Jocko Willink?

  So this is just, you can see why this is just mayhem. It's total mayhem and it's mayhem from micromanagement is what it is. Mayhem from micromanagement. It is difficult to keep, keep a clear head in trying to see this into this muddle now. We can imagine the state of Warren's mind. But this was not all. Within the space of two hours, Warren received orders involving important movements for his entire corps in four different directions. These came in rapid succession and in the following order. One, to retrench where he was on the White Oak Road and be ready to fight in the morning. This was from Grant. To fall back with the whole corps from the White Oak Road to Boynton and send a division by this road to relieve Sheridan. This was also from Grant.

• 58:07Jocko Willink?

  Number three, Griffin to be pushed down Boynton Road, but the rest of the corps, Ares and Crawford, to go across the fields to the Crump Road, the way Bartlett had gone, and attack the enemy in the rear who's opposing Sheridan. This was from Meade. This required a movement in precisely the opposite direction from that indicated in the preceding order, which was now partly executed. Ares had already started. Number four, Meade's advice to send these troops back by Quaker Road 10 miles around and give up the rear attack. Number five, to these may be added the actual final movement, which was that Ares went

• 58:48Jocko Willink?

  down the Boynton Road and Griffin and Crawford went by Dirt Road across the country to Crump Road as indicated in Meade's previous orders. There's one more thing. General Grant thought it necessary in order to make sure that Sheridan would have complete and absolute command of his troops to send a special message asking Meade to make that distinct announcement to Sheridan. This is craziness.

• 59:15Jocko Willink?

  The orders which came to General Warren that night were, to an amazing degree, confused and conflicting. This is charging no blame on any particular person. We will call it, if you please, the fault of circumstances. But of course, the responsibility for the evil effects of such conditions must naturally, in military usage and ethics, rest upon the officer receiving them. And when he is not allowed to use his judgment as to the details of his own command, it makes it very hard for him sometimes. Indeed, it is not very pleasant to be a subordinate officer, especially if one is also at the same time a commanding officer.

• 1:00:03Jocko Willink?

  But in this case, I think the trouble was the result of other recognizable contributory circumstances, if I might not say causes. So he's got some other reasons why this stuff happened. This is just, it's just mayhem. And he's, he's in writing the most articulate and eloquent case for decentralized command and not micromanaging.

• 1:00:26Jocko Willink?

  Some of the reasons, he says, the awkwardness of having in the field so many superior rather than coordinate commanders.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 1:00:36Jocko Willink?

  It's a bunch of people, make bunch of chiefs, no Indians.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  And it's not really clear who's the main effort. And I think they shifted up at one point.

• 1:00:44Jocko Willink?

  And you called this a double objective. One point being Sheridan's independent operations to cut the enemy's communications, the other turning of Lee's right and breaking up his army by the infantry. Which one of those, this is prioritize and execute. Which one of these is more important? Which one do you want us to do? And by the way, you can't just say both, because both only works if the enemy doesn't get a vote, but the enemy's gonna get a vote. And so is weather, and so is your troops, and so is morale, and so is the supply chain. Like, all these things are gonna have an impact. So we gotta know what's the most important thing you want done.

• 1:01:18Jocko Willink?

  Number three, these supreme commanders being at such a distance from the field of operation on the 31st of March, that it was impossible to have a complete mutual understanding when orders were put into effect. You're not up there, and you're making calls from the rear with the gear.

• 1:01:35Jocko Willink?

  Number four, time lost and sequence confused by the difficulty of getting over the ground to carry orders or obey them, owing to the condition of the roads or lack of them, and the extreme darkness of the night. So, yeah, communication problems.

• 1:01:51Jocko Willink?

  He says, "At 3 o'clock, I had got my pickets, which were replaced by crawfords, and let my men rest as quietly as possible, knowing there would be heavy burdens laid on them in the morning." So all this freaking chaos is going on. And by the way, like, when that whip hits the freaking infantryman that's out with his single last shoes that are both made from left freaking foot, God, and he's lost four of his friends, and he hasn't eaten, and he's thirsty.

• 1:02:24Jocko Willink?

  After such a day and night as that of the 31st of March 1865, the morning of April 1st found the men of the 5th Corps strangely glad they were alive. They'd experienced a kaleidoscopic regeneration. They were ready for the next new turn. The test of ordinary probation had been passed. All the effects of humiliation, fasting, and prayer believed to sink the body and exalt the spirit had been fully wrought in them. At the weird midnight trumpet call, they rose from their fields as those whom death no longer had any power. Their pulling out for the march in the ghostly midst of dawn looked like a passage in the

• 1:03:09Jocko Willink?

  transmigration of souls, not sent back to work out the remnant of their sins as animals, but lifted to a third plane by that three days of the underworld. Eliminating sense incorporating the soul. There's a word I had to look up, transmigration. That's basically reincarnation. So they're getting reincarnated not as animals, but lifted to a third plane. There was an interesting note on here on the term infantry. Did you, the etymology of the word infantry?

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Don't know it.

• 1:03:50Jocko Willink?

  Infant. Yep. The lamest etymology I'd ever heard. I was so bummed, I almost didn't want to talk about it on the podcast. But back in the day, the infantry were the people that weren't old enough or mature enough or of high status enough to, to fight on horses. And so they're infants. They're the, they're, they're the babies. I didn't want to say this. I can't, I can't not say it. I can't say it's not true. But that's where it comes from. Cause what does he say?

• 1:04:28Jocko Willink?

  Sheridan had also come to the opinion that infantry was a good thing to have around however by some queer break in the hierarchy of honor subordinated to the chevaliers the biped meaning the person to the quadriped meaning the horse and by some freak of etymology named infantry the speechless that's another thing like hey you don't need to say anything you're infantry the speechless whether because they couldn't talk or because they mustn't tell

• 1:04:55Jocko Willink?

  sorry infantry troopers of the world you have my utmost respect and I apologize for the etymology of your name it's horrible

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  I have no idea what to make of it

• 1:05:05Jocko Willink?

  we'll stick with grunts

• 1:05:09Jocko Willink?

  the troops what's that

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  one of press fields book on on Afghanistan the Afghanistan campaign that one of the infantry guy goes you know what we are we're mules mules that kill yeah all they do is walk and pack gear

• 1:05:24Jocko Willink?

  that's a good one

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  and then fight

• 1:05:27Jocko Willink?

  well the the uh the dedication um in about face to all the dough boys the ground pounders the grunts the American infantrymen there you go

• 1:05:41Jocko Willink?

  going back to the book the troops had enjoyed about four hours of this unwanted rest when the cavalry having completed its reconnaissance were ordered for it and by the way he talks about this there's a march that they take place that they have to freaking march their ass off to to keep up with the cavalry horses we were trying to follow closely were brought this is they're talking about the march we were trying to trying to follow closely were brought to frequent stand still this was vexatious another good word for you our men being hurried to their feet in heavy marching order carrying on their backs perhaps three days life for themselves and a pretty big heavy installment of death and for their antagonist and now compelled every few minutes to come to a

• 1:06:26Jocko Willink?

  huddled halt in the muddy road marking time and marking place and also with deep discontent in about two hours we get up to where Sheridan wants us I think it's crazy to to that he in this in this elevated book he still talks about the fact that it sucks when you're walking and you gotta stop and then you go and then you stop and then you go and you stop and just hurry up and

• 1:06:56Jocko Willink?

  He even has to mention that.

• 1:06:59Jocko Willink?

  That it's vexatious to have that happen.

• 1:07:04Jocko Willink?

  During this impatient waiting for the seemingly slow preparatory formation, our spiritual wheels were lubricated by the flow of discussion and explanation about the plan of attack. Sheridan took a saber, a scabbard, and described it graphically on the light earth. So this is the, this is the classic, hey, he pulls out his sword and draws in the dirt, what we're gonna do. The plan in general was for the cavalry to occupy the enemy's attention by a brisk demonstration along the right front of their works, while the fifth corps should fall upon their left and rear by a sort of surprise if possible, and scoop them out of their works along the White Oak Road and capture or disorganize them. Cover and move.

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  Go ahead.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  And we're back to where he was yesterday. Cause yesterday they were holding White Oak Road. And they got jacked around and drug around and walked all the way around and now they're right back to where they started.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  It's amazing that they just didn't just completely get pissed off and throw their rifles down.

• 1:08:10Jocko Willink?

  And there's all kinds of confusion. In fact, he says, ill at ease at such confusion of mind, I rode over to General Griffin, who with General Warren was close on my left at the early stage of this movement and asked for an explanation. Griffin answers quickly, we will not worry about ourselves and diagrams. We are to follow Crawford's circumstances will develop our duty. Okay.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that's more helpful than that diagram they're about to get, right?

• 1:08:39Jocko Willink?

  They're starting to move. He says, I halted my line and rode ahead through the woods to some high cleared ground, the southeastern corner of a large field known as Sidnor Field, along the opposite edge of which I could see strong skirmishing along Crawford's front. And turning southerly, looking across broken scrubby ground could see Ares troops engaged in a confused whirl of struggling groups with fitful firing.

• 1:09:05Jocko Willink?

  So he's maneuvered into a position where he can see what's happening. There was Ares fighting alone. And that was not in the program, meaning that wasn't part of the plan. There was Griffin down there. That was an order enough for me, and I took the responsibility of looking out for the left instead of the right, where my last orders committed me. I pulled my brigade out of the wood by the left flank, telling Gregory to follow and sending to Bartlett to let him know what I was doing. Pushed across a muddy stream and up through a ravine toward Ares. Halfway up, Griffin came to meet me. Never more welcome. He gave the look I wanted, and without coming near enough for words, waved me to follow

• 1:09:47Jocko Willink?

  up to the head of the ravine and to attack on my right. Along the bank where, hidden by brush and scrub, the enemy had a line perpendicular to their main, one on White Oak Road, and were commencing a slant fire in Ares' direction. Griffin rode past me toward Warren and Bartlett. So there's a bunch of things going on there. Number one, he'd been told to do one thing, but he looks at what's happening and decides I gotta do something else.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  And on top of that, then he actually tells other people, hey, I'm adjusting the plan here, so you know I'm doing this. I mean, that's what right looks like.

• 1:10:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what right looks like. And again, it's when you think about the details, he's writing this book. The detail that you just pointed out was important enough to him to put it in here to say, I let him know what I was doing. And you know, when we mentioned on the last podcast about Gettysburg and hey, this guy took initiative, it was good. This guy took initiative, it was bad. What's the difference? One of the, there's several differences. One of the differences, oh, I took initiative but didn't tell anyone? That's bad. Oh, I took initiative and tell people what I was getting to do, then that's good. That's one of the things that makes it good. So again, you've got to pay attention to what he's paying attention to.

• 1:11:05Jocko Willink?

  He's paying attention to all of us telling us leaders, hey, when you're going to change something, you need to let people know what you're doing. And then I just thought it's cool. You want to talk about relationships and sort of like the silent leader, just see the guy, look at him, I got you, the head nod. We're going.

• 1:11:28Jocko Willink?

  Ares fitful fire was approaching and I rode over towards it. Somewhere near the angle of the works I met Sheridan. He had probably seen me putting my men in and hence I escaped censure for appearing. Indeed, his criticism seemed to be that there was not more of me, rather than less. "Oh by God, that's what I want to see," was his greeting. "General officers at the front, where are your general officers?" I replied that I'd seen General Warren's flag in the big field north of us and that seeing Ares was in a tight place, I'd come to help him and by General Griffin's order. "Then," cried he with a vigor of utterance worthy of an army in Flanders, "you take command of all the infantry round here and break this dam."

• 1:12:12Jocko Willink?

  I didn't wait to hear any more. That made good grammar as it stood. I didn't stand for anything but spurred back to some scattered groups of men demoralized by being so far in the rear and not far enough to do them any good, yet too brave to go back. Captain Brenton of Griffin staff came along and I took him with me down among these men to get them up. I found one stalwart fellow on his hands and knees behind a stump, answering with whimsical grimaces to the bullets coming pretty thick and near. "Look here, my good fellow," I called down to him, "don't you know you'll be killed here in less than two minutes? That would be a shame, this is no place for you, go forward." "But what can I do?" he cried.

• 1:12:56Jocko Willink?

  "I can't stand up against this all alone." "No, that's just it," I replied. "We're forming here, I want for you to guide center, up and forward." Up and out he came like a hero. I formed those reserves on him as a guide and the whole queer line, two hundred of them, went in right up to the front and like the thick of it.

• 1:13:22Jocko Willink?

  My poor fellow only wanted a token of confidence and appreciation to get possession of himself. He was proud of what he did, and so was I for him. Freaking epic.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  I got goosebumps from that, man.

• 1:13:36Jocko Willink?

  You know, I, I tell that story when I was at Trade Ed and like the mountain situation's going on and the guys are getting all their ass kicked with paintball and everything and no one's making any decisions. And I walked over to this one badass E5 and I looked at him, I go, "Hey, bro." I go, "What do you think you should do right now?" He's like, "We ought to freaking storm that building over there and get some freaking, get some cover." And I go, "Why don't you make it happen?" And the look on his face, I wish I had a video. He looked, the look on his face was like, "Wait, why don't I make it happen? You mean I can make this happen?" He goes, "Hey, strong point, that building." Immediately everyone just did what he said. Freaking, I think he might've been a new guy. Might've been a one cruise wonder. I'll have to ask him, because I know exactly who it

• 1:14:19Jocko Willink?

  is, you know, awesome guy. But just that right there, I mean, now this is a combat situation. Dude, you just give that little bit of confidence. You take charge. This is taking ownership, right? When we talk about giving people ownership, you give them ownership. Hey, I'm gonna make you the center. People always ask us, "What do you do when people are not motivated?" Give them ownership. This is the example. Henceforth, this is the example of giving ownership.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  I despise running. Despise it. You're not gonna catch me running unless I'm running toward a chocolate cake or away from the police, right? But if you tell me to lead a run, I can run somehow. It's like somehow, it's like anyone who's leading a run when you're doing a conditioning run, you're like, "Man, they're really setting the space," because somehow you're buoyed up by all those people behind you.

• 1:15:10Jocko Willink?

  You own it. It's you.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:13Jocko Willink?

  General Gwynn was riding up and down their front in a demonstrative manner, but giving no sign of forward movement. I thought this strange for him and bad for all of us in the pinch things were at. And with the warrant Sheridan had given me, galloped down to him and asked him if he was acting under any particular orders from General Ares. "No, General," he replied with an air of relief. "I've lost Ares. I have no orders. I don't know what to do." "Then you come with me," I said. "I will take responsibility. You shall have all the credit." "Let me take your brigade for a moment."

• 1:15:57Jocko Willink?

  So that's two pages. You've got giving ownership and taking ownership in two pages, in two paragraphs, really. And by the way, I'll take responsibility. You'll have all the credit. This dude is like, "Deal. Deal and deal."

• 1:16:18Jocko Willink?

  Then Sheridan was by my side in a moment, very angry. "You are firing into my cavalry." Here we get blue on blue. "He exclaims, his face darkening with a checked expletive. "I was under a little pressure too, and put on a bold air. Then the cavalry have gotten into the rebels' place. One of us will have to get out of the way. What will you have us do, General?" "Don't you fire into my cavalry, I'll tell you," was the fierce rejoinder. So, we got this freaking mayhem going on.

• 1:16:56Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit more, they kind of sort that out. "I plunged into my business to make up for a minute's lost time. My men were still facing too much across Ares' front and getting into the range of his fire." We had got, we had got to change that and swing to the right, down the rear of the enemy's main works. It was a whirl. Every way was a front and every way was a flank. The fighting was hand to hand. I was trying to get the three angles of the triangle into something like two right angles and it swung my left well forward, opening quite a gap in that direction when a large body of the enemy came rushing in from that flank and rear. They were in line formation with arms at something like a ready, which looked like business.

• 1:17:42Jocko Willink?

  I thought it was our turn to be caught between two fires and that these men were likely to cut their way through us rushing into the ranks of my left battalion. I shouted the order, prepare a fire by the rear rank. My men faced about at once disregarding the enemy in the front. But at this juncture, our portness visitors threw down their muskets and with hands and faces cried out, we surrender. Running right up upon and almost over us. I was very glad of it, though more astonished for they outnumbered us largely.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  That's the kind of turn of events that you like.

• 1:18:24Jocko Willink?

  And it's, it's one of those things that reminds me that he could have surrendered right there. He could have surrendered. Hey, you know what? We're surrounded. Hey, everyone, drop your weapons. It's that, it's going that extra little moment, right? That extra, you know what happens in fighting, in boxing and MMA fighting? Where that extra, like, I'll go one more round. Who was it? Who was, uh, was that Ali Frazier? And Ali had returned to his corner saying, take off my, take off my gloves. Like, I'm done. And they, you know, they're basically, no, you're not done. He's like, no, I'm done.

• 1:19:09Jocko Willink?

  And they said, no, you're not done. So he's okay. And I think it was Frazier said he was done. Didn't answer the bell. So he won. But it was just that, he could have easily surrendered, but he didn't. Held on for a little bit longer.

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  Did Hickson do that too? Like that was kind of his, do you remember when, when he was young against Zulu?

• 1:19:30Jocko Willink?

  What happened?

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  Where he, he just felt like, no, I'm kind of done. And they were like, no, no, no.

• 1:19:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, that's right. Hickson for sure. He got to the, after the first round, they bring Hickson aside and they're like, hey, Hickson says, I'm done, man. I'm done. Like, I can't, this isn't gonna work. I'm done. I'm physically exhausted. And they say, no, you're not done yet, son.

• 1:19:57Jocko Willink?

  This battle continues. The hardest holdup was in front of my left center, the first battalion of the 198th Pennsylvania. I rode up to the gallant Glenn commanding it and said, Major Glenn, if you will break that line, you shall have a Colonel's commission. It was a hasty utterance and the promise unmilitary perhaps, but my every energy was focused on that moment's issue, nor did that earnest soldier need a personal inducement. He was already carrying out the general order to press the enemy before him with as much effect as we could reasonably expect. But it was deep in my mind how richly he already deserved this promotion and I was resolved that he should get it now.

• 1:20:39Jocko Willink?

  It was this thought and purpose which no doubt shaped my phrase and pardoned it. Glenn sprung among his men, calling out, "Boys, will you follow me?" Wheeled his horse and dashed forward without turning to see who followed, nor did he need. His words were a question, his act an order. Yeah. He doesn't say, doesn't give an order, he literally asks the question, "Will you follow me?" And then goes.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Leadership by example.

• 1:21:16Jocko Willink?

  And whatever kind of relationship and respect he had from his troops, that when they see him go, they go. His words were a question, his act an order. "On the brave fellows go with a cheer into the hurricane of fire. Their beautiful flag sways gracefully aloft with the spring of brave youth bearing it, lighting the battle smoke. Three times it goes down to earth, covered in darkening eddies, but rises ever again, passing from hand to hand of dauntless young heroes.

• 1:21:57Jocko Willink?

  Then, bullet-torn and blood-blazened, it hovers for a moment above the breastwork while the regiment goes over like a wave. This I saw from my position to the left, where I was pressing on the rest of my command. The sight wrought upon me that I snatched time to ride over and congratulate Glenn and his regiment."

• 1:22:23Jocko Willink?

  As I passed into a deeper shadow of the woods, I met two men bearing his body,

• 1:22:31Jocko Willink?

  the dripping blood marking their path.

• 1:22:35Jocko Willink?

  They stopped to tell me. I saw it all too well. He had snatched a battle flag from a broken regiment trying to rally on its colors when a brute bullet of the earth, once pronounced good, but since cursed for man-sin, struck him down to its level.

• 1:22:57Jocko Willink?

  I could not stop. I could stop but for a moment. For still on my front was rush and turmoil and tragedy. I could only bend down over him from the saddle and murmur unavailing words. "General, I have carried out your wishes." This was his only utterance.

• 1:23:20Jocko Willink?

  It was as if another bullet had cut through me. I fell almost across my saddle. "My wish! God in heaven, no more my wish than thine, that this fair body, still part of the unfallen good, should be smitten to the sod, that this spirit born of thine should be quenched by the accursed."

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  What dark misgivings searched me as I took the import of these words? What sharp sense of responsibility for those who have committed to them the issues of life and death? Why should I have not let this onset take its general course and mend their natural chances? Why choose him out for his death? And so take on myself the awful decision into what home irreparable loss and measur-lish desolation should cast their unlifted burden?

• 1:24:22Jocko Willink?

  The crowding fought choked utterance.

• 1:24:26Jocko Willink?

  I could only bend my face low to his and answer. Colonel.

• 1:24:35Jocko Willink?

  I will remember my promise. I will remember you.

• 1:24:43Jocko Willink?

  And pressed forward to my place where the crash and crush and agony of the struggle summoned me more to more of the same.

• 1:24:53Jocko Willink?

  War.

• 1:24:57Jocko Willink?

  Nothing but the final infinite good for man and God can accept and justify human work like that.

• 1:25:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's um.

• 1:25:32Jocko Willink?

  That massive burden that he feels just absolutely hitting him.

• 1:25:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, again, there's not much for me to say on that.

• 1:26:02Jocko Willink?

  And even with that, the battle's not over.

• 1:26:07Jocko Willink?

  Go forward a little bit, and we had now come to the edge of a wide field across the road and the works on the enemy's right known as the Gillum Field. Here I came to Sheridan and Griffin, my troops all up and well in hand. A sharp cavalry fight was going on in which some of Ares' men and my own had taken part.

• 1:26:27Jocko Willink?

  When our line was checked at the last angle, Griffin had ordered one of Crawford's colonels to advance. The Colonel, a brave, well-balanced man, replied that where soldiers as good as Griffin's men had failed, he did not feel warranted in going in without proper orders.

• 1:26:50Jocko Willink?

  "Very well, I order you in," says Griffin, without adding that he did it as commander of the Corps.

• 1:26:59Jocko Willink?

  So there's a Colonel sitting there, and there's this battle going on.

• 1:27:08Jocko Willink?

  And Griffin says, "Hey, you need to get in there." And the Colonel says, "Well, hey, I don't think I should go in there. If these guys can't get it done, I don't think I should go in there unless I'm under orders." And Griffin says, "Very well, then I order you in."

• 1:27:23Jocko Willink?

  So he gives a little pushback, "Hey, this doesn't seem like a great call," and then he gets told, "You're going in." The gallant Colonel bows. He is Richardson of the 7th Wisconsin. Grasps his regimental colors in his own hand, significant of the need of his resolution in face of it, and rides forward in advance of his men.

• 1:27:46Jocko Willink?

  "What can they do but follow such example?"

• 1:27:50Jocko Willink?

  General Warren, with intensity of feeling that is now desperation, snatches his Corps flag from the hands of its bearer and dashes up to Richardson's side.

• 1:28:03Jocko Willink?

  And so, the two leaders ride, the Corps commander and his last visible Colonel, colors aloft, reckless of the growing distance between them and their followers. Straight for the smoking line, straight for the flaming edge, not hesitating at the breastworks, over they go. One with swelling tumult of soul, where the passion of suffering craves outburst in action, the other with obedience and self-devotion, love-like, stronger than death.

• 1:28:37Jocko Willink?

  "Over the breastworks, down among the astonished foe, one of whom instinct overmastering admiration aims at the foremost a deadly blow, which the noble youth rushes forward to parry, and shielding with his own breast of his certain, of his uncaring commander, falls to earth, bathing his colors with his blood."

• 1:29:04Jocko Willink?

  Need more be told.

• 1:29:08Jocko Willink?

  Do men tarry at such a point? One crested wave sweeps on, another broken, rolls away. All is lost. And all is won.

• 1:29:21Jocko Willink?

  Slowly, Warren returns over the somber field.

• 1:29:35Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:29:37Jocko Willink?

  That's just an unbelievable scene. You know, it's just an unbelievable scene. If you tried to make that in a movie, it wouldn't seem realistic. That this guy Richardson gets told, hey, you need to charge. He says, I'm, don't think I should do that without proper orders. His boss says, these are your orders. Go. And as he takes off towards the melee. The overall leader.

• 1:30:06Jocko Willink?

  Without saying a word, just grabs his flag and joins him by his side.

• 1:30:13Jocko Willink?

  Once they get to the enemy lines, somebody takes aim at. At. Warren. And Richardson basically jumps in front of, he says blow. I don't know if it was a shot or if it was a sword or what it was, but I'm assuming he was shot. And Richardson takes the round.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  I'm, I mean, you, you, you consider like an enemy breastworks and they're coming over it in their horses. And then once they come over, they gotta be in and amongst them. So it could have been either.

• 1:30:42Jocko Willink?

  Could have been a sword, I guess.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  Bayonet.

• 1:30:46Jocko Willink?

  Bayonet. Yeah.

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:30:56Jocko Willink?

  And then this happens as it is forsaken, at its forsaken edge, a staff officer hands him, this is Warren. This is, so Warren walks back after this or rides back after this.

• 1:31:09Jocko Willink?

  And a staff officer hands him a crude field order. Partly by the lurid flashes of the last guns, partly by the light of the dying day. He reads, quote, "Major General Warren, commanding the 5th Army Corps is relieved from duty and will at once report for orders to Lieutenant General Grant, commanding armies of the United States,

• 1:31:33Jocko Willink?

  by command of Major General Sheridan," end quote.

• 1:31:39Jocko Willink?

  So he just got fired. With almost the agony of death upon his face, Warren approaches Sheridan and asks him if he cannot reconsider the order. "Reconsider? Hell, I don't reconsider my decisions. Obey the order."

• 1:31:57Jocko Willink?

  That was the last thunderbolt on Warren's heart.

• 1:32:01Jocko Willink?

  The battle has done its worst for him. The iron has entered his soul.

• 1:32:11Jocko Willink?

  So, all that kind of mayhem and disorganization and all those different orders and stuff,

• 1:32:20Jocko Willink?

  caused eventually him to get fired. And there's some details in the book about him moving too slow, him not being at the front.

• 1:32:33Jocko Willink?

  So, fast forward a little bit. Suddenly emerged from the shadows, "A compact form with vigorous stride unlike the measure and mood of ours and a voice that would itself have thrilled us had it not, had not the import of it thrilled us more." "Gentlemen," says Sheridan, "as we have started to our feet, I've come to see you. I may have spoken harshly to some of you today, but I would not have it hurt you.

• 1:33:03Jocko Willink?

  You know how it is. We had to carry this place and I was fretted all day till it was done. You must forgive me. I know it is hard for the men too, but we must push. There's more for us to do together. I appreciate and thank you all."

• 1:33:22Jocko Willink?

  And this is Phil Sheridan, a new view of him surely and amazingly, all the repressed feeling of our hearts sprung out toward him. We were ready to blame ourselves if we had been in any way the cause of his trouble. But we thought we had borne a better part than that. So this guy Sheridan, who's been barking orders and stuff all day, now rolls in after he fires Warren and says, hey, guys, look, I know I was hard today. But I'm sorry. I was wrong. You know, you must forgive me. He's asking for forgiveness. And I mean, it landed apparently really well, you know?

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  Because reading this, it's, it's really apparent that Chamberlain is sympathetic to Warren and ain't all that thrilled with Sheridan. And then, you know, you see his response there when Sheridan was smart.

• 1:34:24Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Takes ownership of the freaking situation.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Ownership of it and regaining some leadership capital because apologizing requires you to do huge checking your ego. And I can't think of a situation where you, anyone loses respect for you when you apologize.

• 1:34:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. This is a good case of that. Yeah, we just went through that whole thing with, with Joe Rogan and, you know, him apologizing and there was a bunch of people and I, I just basically tried to lend support to him and saying that, hey, let's, the guy's apologized. Forgiveness is a virtue that we should all try and go after and try and represent. And so when somebody makes a mistake, you know, that's what forgiveness is for. And a bunch of people, not a bunch of people, but some people were saying, you should never apologize. No, it's never, I hear that too with leaders. Leaders say, oh, it's weak to apologize. Man,

• 1:35:27Jocko Willink?

  if you mess something up, then apologize. And, and hey, in, in a minimum, if I say something to you that maybe, maybe I offended you, what, what did I want to offend you? And if I didn't, maybe if, maybe if it's a, you know, I say, well, geez, Jason, you know, you're, you and your stupid freaking blonde hair, right? You know, and all of a sudden I realized that, you know, you used to get picked on for that. And even though I meant it as a joke, but it offended you. Does that mean, well, hey, I didn't know, I didn't know that you used to get picked on because of that. I'm not apologizing. No, it's actually, hey, man, I'm sorry. The way I said it and the thing that I didn't know was going to offend you offended you and I'm sorry about that.

• 1:36:10Jocko Willink?

  Like, there's nothing wrong when you make a mistake of saying sorry. Nothing wrong.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  What I really appreciated about Rogan's apology is that he wasn't sidestepping any consequences.

• 1:36:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Well, you know, just because you say you're sorry, doesn't mean there are no consequences. Hey, it's all good. I apologize. No, but he, he took ownership of what happened. He wasn't trying to weasel out of any consequences. And I thought that it was a huge lesson on how, what the right thing to do is when something comes out and I, I actually gained quite a bit of respect. I had a fair amount of respect for Joe before that, but, but his apology was heartfelt and sincere and, and wasn't an attempt to avoid consequences. Which is awesome.

• 1:36:58Jocko Willink?

  And when you make a mistake as a leader, when you pick the wrong plan, when I say, hey, Jason, I want you to, you know, can you prep this freaking brief for me? And then it turns out we don't need to do the brief. And I'm like, hey, man, I know you worked for two weeks on that thing and we didn't even need to even do it. I'm sorry, man. As opposed to saying, well, you know, we could have used it or whatever, just making up the big cover up, the big lie, you know? And just like, hey, man, I'm so sorry. I know I wait, you wasted two weeks working on that, working on that brief and we ended up not using it. I should have done a better, I should have done more groundwork to make sure we were going to need it. And I'm sorry. Your respect for me doesn't go down, goes up, you know, it's like, I, I was wrong.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  And when I, when it was, when, as I'm reading this and I'm, and I, I'm like, oh God, here comes Sharon again. He's going to yell at him. And then I'm like, oh, look at him go. He's apologizing. And then he writes about like, hey, we were all, as soon as he did that, he completely flipped their feelings towards him.

• 1:38:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep. A new view of him surely and amazingly.

• 1:38:06Jocko Willink?

  If that's such a great case for taking ownership and apologizing when you screw something up.

• 1:38:15Jocko Willink?

  He's talking a little bit about, about.

• 1:38:19Jocko Willink?

  About the, the personalities and the attitudes and one thing he's talking about Sheridan. So this is sort of a detached moment. He says Sheridan does not entrench. He pushes on carrying his flank and rear with him rushing, flashing, smashing. He transfuses into his subordinates, the vitality and energy of his purpose transforms them into part of his own mind and will. He shows the power of a commander inspiring both confidence and fear.

• 1:38:49Jocko Willink?

  As a rule, our corps and army commanders were men of brains rather than magnetism. They relied on brains in others. Warren was one of these. He was well capable of organizing an entire plan of battle on a great field. He would have been an admirable chief of staff of the army. So again, this is the personality of Warren. Warren was like not a dynamic charismatic individual. He was good at planning.

• 1:39:18Jocko Willink?

  Their brains outweigh temperament. So when you're coming up with a plan, your brains are more important. He could see the whole comprehensively and adjust the parts to subordinate. But he had a certain order of temperament, which although it brought him distinction as a subordinate commander, seemed to work against him as a corps commander. Yeah, this is, man, you got it. You gotta, you gotta adjust. Look, well, we'll get into it. Well, we'll just do it now. You, you, look, if you are the,

• 1:39:53Jocko Willink?

  the second in command, if you're the chief operating option, you gotta make things happen. And you're the one that goes, hey, Jason, you need to get this shit done right now. And you're like, yeah, got it, boss. And then I elevate to being the CEO. I need to change my behavior and I need to be the, be the, the, the bigger personality, the, the more positive personality. That's what I need to do. The, the more charismatic, the more dynamic, I, I don't want to be the one in the weeds when I'm overall in charge.

• 1:40:27Jocko Willink?

  Now, if I have the personality where like, hey, I'm a great at coming up with the plans and this is the way we're gonna do this. That's cool, but when I promote above that and now I've got to show the vision, you gotta, you gotta adjust and you gotta grow and you gotta mature. And by the way, sometimes you go back down to that position because you could be leading a department where you gotta be kinda charismatic and and then you get promoted to COO. Now you gotta be like a little bit more of the planner and a little bit more mechanical. And then you get promoted to CEO and now you gotta be back to the dynamic individual again. So, so part of the reason I want to say that is because yes, you have a personality. We all have a personality.

• 1:41:09Jocko Willink?

  But

• 1:41:11Jocko Willink?

  you don't necessarily, you know, have to behave the same way in different, like I, when I was an assistant platoon commander. You know, I had to subdue some of my enthusiasm about things when I, I, I was more into the detailed planning. Hey, I got that paperwork. Let me run that. When I was a platoon commander, all of a sudden I, I stepped up into the more dynamic role, got out of the details.

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's what you're gonna have to do throughout your career. And you have to pay attention to what your personality sort of lends itself to. Um, there was guys that I worked for that were executive officers, the number two in command at a SEAL team. And they were great executive officers. As commanding officers, maybe not so great. There was people that were great commanding officers as executive officers, maybe not so great. They just have a personality. But at least you should, you should know where your parent personality is and then modulate your personality to the job that you're in.

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the only way you're gonna do that is to detach.

• 1:42:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  That's the only way, otherwise you're just swept away by your personality.

• 1:42:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  And I, I, so that, you know, in the Navy, every two years, you're promoting. And right about the time you figure out how to do that job, you get up to the next job, and then you're doing the next job like that last job for a little while, until you figure things out.

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  Hopefully, you figure it out. It didn't, it didn't just work out for Warren. There's, there's a whole bunch of circumstances where things didn't work out for Warren, and maybe in other circumstances, he would have been fine, but it didn't sound like he was the dynamic leader, and that's, that is a hard thing to do, because you're gonna start out doing what you know. And unless you're willing to take feedback, and so, you know, the 360 feedback is something that we started doing in, in the teams, and so you'd get feedback from your subordinates, and that's painful to hear. To look at that stuff sometimes, you're like, oh. But it's so liberating, because you're like, oh, okay. And you can tell when you read the feedback on who's kissing ass,

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  and who's just angry about everything, and they're just gonna be angry about it, and who's giving you honest feedback. It's like, oh, I gotta stop doing that, or adjust that, or I'm stepping on that guy's toes,

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  and pull it back.

• 1:43:41Jocko Willink?

  Still, still here, talking about Warren, he said it led him to go in personally with a single division or brigade, when a sharp fight came on, doing this when he, when having a larger command, one takes the risk of losing grasp of the whole. So he's going into that, like, hey, I'm used to doing this job down in the weeds. I'm gonna get down in the weeds. That was what he did, trying to change the front with Crawford's division under fire. It was a difficult thing. He put his personality into it, which is what you just said, Jason, just as Sheridan would do, and did in this very fight.

• 1:44:14Jocko Willink?

  There's a whole section that covers some of that criticism about Warren and his subordinates and Chamberlain goes on to say, "These accusations against the conduct of each of Warren's divisions, while susceptible of being magnified and manipulated so as to produce a certain forensic effect, are of no substantial weight." Even if true, in the sharpest sense, so even if Warren's subordinates were totally jacked up, look, he's saying, "Look, you can create, you can look in the back and say like, "Oh, these guys were bad, this guy did this wrong, this guy did that wrong," and you can produce a certain forensic effect.

• 1:44:56Jocko Willink?

  But even if that's true, in the sharpest sense, they would be overstrained and uncalled for considering how the battle ended and by whom it was mainly fought. In a military and highly proper sense, General Warren was responsible for the conduct of his corps and ultimately for that of each of his divisions. There you have it. You got people that work for you, you got departments under you, you got divisions underneath you, you got platoons or battalions or companies underneath you, you are responsible for what all those people do.

• 1:45:37Jocko Willink?

  There are two ways in which such control might be exercised, by prevention or by correction. So I'm either gonna say, "Jason, you know what, you're not doing this job well, you're not doing this job, you're fired." Or, "Hey Jason, you're not doing this job well, here's the corrections you need to make." That's what you do.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  Or, "Hey Jason, I know that you're gonna set everything on fire, don't set everything on fire."

• 1:45:59Jocko Willink?

  Which is correction, right? Which is prevent-

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  But preemptive, right?

• 1:46:02Jocko Willink?

  Yes, that's prevention. Prevention. "It was Crawford's duty to keep his vital connection with Ares and if in any way should be broken, to be on the alert to see an act. Warren should have hold him responsible for that. And if he knew he could not at the start rouse Crawford, whose peculiarities he knew to a vivid conception of the anatomy and physiology of the case, he should have had a staff officer charged with the duty of keeping Crawford closed on Ares while he himself at the point where he could keep in touch with his whole corps and hold Griffin under his hand at the ready." And trusted, reserved, prepared for the unexpected. So he's saying the same thing you and I just said, like if,

• 1:46:43Jocko Willink?

  if Echo is a little bit of a wild man and I'm not quite sure what he's gonna do, cool, I'd take Jason, my trusted guy and say, "Hey, man, go with Echo. Let me know what he's doing." He gets a little wild sometimes.

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  You and Dave call that preemptive ownership.

• 1:46:57Jocko Willink?

  Preemptive ownership.

• 1:47:02Jocko Willink?

  Good deal, Dave. There you go. Cover down.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  I gotta pick up the slack.

• 1:47:07Jocko Willink?

  And now we get to Appomattox, Appomattox, fast forward a little bit. I'm about to speak of what came under my observation in the action at Appomattox, Appomattox courthouse and the circumstances attending the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia, April 9th, 1865. So now they're 20, 25 miles or so from Five Forks, the battle that they were just in. This is a week later, eight days later, something like that.

• 1:47:37Jocko Willink?

  They had to march that, that time. He says, "The 5th Corps had a very hard march that day, made more so in the afternoon and night by the lumbering obstructions of the rear of Ord's tired column. By courtesy given the road before us, the incessant check-freading our men almost a mutiny. We had been rushed all day to keep up with the cavalry, but this constant checking was worse. We did not know that Grant had set orders to the 5th Corps to march all night without halting, but it was not necessary for us to know it. After 29 miles of this kind of marching, at the blackest hour of night, human nature had called a halt.

• 1:48:16Jocko Willink?

  Dropping by the roadside, left and right, wet or dry, down went men as in a swoon. Officers slid out of the saddle, loosened the girth, slipped an arm through the loop of a bridal rain and sunk to sleep. Horses stood with drooping heads just above their masters' faces, all dreaming, one knows not of what, of past or coming, possible or faded."

• 1:48:42Jocko Willink?

  Scarcely as the first broken dream begun when a cavalry man comes splashing down the road and vigorously dismounts pulling from his jacket a crumpled note.

• 1:48:53Jocko Willink?

  The sentinel standing watch by his commander worn in body but alert in every sense touches your shoulder orders sir I think you rise on your elbow strike a match and with smarting streaming eyes read the brief thrilling note from Sheridan like this as I remember quote I have cut across the enemy at Appomattox Appomattox station and captured three of his trains if you can possibly push your infantry up here tonight we will have great results in the morning end quote ah no more sleep the startling bugle notes the ring out to the march word is sent for the men to take a bite of such as they had for food the promised

• 1:49:38Jocko Willink?

  rations would not be up till noon and by that time we should be where they don't even know they are there men shivering to their senses as if written out of risen out of the earth but something in them not of it now sounds the forward for the last time in our long drawn strife and they move these men sleepless supperless breakfastless sore footed stiff jointed sense benumbed but with flushed faces pressing for the front

• 1:50:13Jocko Willink?

  some hard men freaking hard

• 1:50:20Jocko Willink?

  uh they march

• 1:50:23Jocko Willink?

  eventually they arrive on station I ride straight to Sheridan a dark smile and impetuous gesture are my only orders forward into double lines of battle past Sheridan his guns as cavalry and on for the quivering crest for a moment it is a glorious sight every arm of the service in full play cavalry artillery infantry then a sudden shift shifting scene as the cavalry disengaged by successive squadrons rally under their bugle calls with beautiful precision and promptitude and sweep like a storm cloud beyond our right to close in on the enemy's left and complete the fateful envelopment

• 1:51:05Jocko Willink?

  We take up battle. Gregory follows in on my left. It is a formidable wit front we make. The scene darkens. In a few minutes, the tide is turned. The incoming wave is at high flood. The barrier recedes. In truth, the stone wall men hardly show their well-proved metal. They seem astonished to see before them familiar flags of their old antagonists, not having thought it possible that we could match our cavalry and march around and across their pressing columns. And I don't think I did a good job of laying out the way that went, but these soldiers had marched to keep up with the cavalry and had gotten there in 29 miles in a very short period of time.

• 1:51:50Jocko Willink?

  Their last hope is gone to break through our cavalry before our infantry can get up. Neither to Danville nor to Lynchburg can they cut their way. And close upon their rear, five miles away, are pressing the second and sixth corps of the Army of the Potomac. It is the end. They are now giving way, but keep up good front by force of old habit.

• 1:52:14Jocko Willink?

  Halfway up the slope, they make a stand with what perhaps they think a good omen behind a stone wall. I try a little artillery on them, which directs their thoughts towards the crest behind them and stiffens my lines for a rush. Anxious for that crust myself, crest myself. But now comes up Ord with a positive order. Don't expose your lines on that crest. The enemy have massed their guns to hat to give it a raking fire the moment you set foot there.

• 1:52:45Jocko Willink?

  I thought I saw a qualifying look as he turned away, but left alone, youth struggled with prudence. My troops were in a bad position down here. I did not like to be the duh, the underdog. It was much better to be on top and at least know what was there beyond. So I thought of Grant and his permission to quote, "push things" when we got them going, and of Sheridan and his last words as he rode away with his cavalry, smiting his hands together, quote, "Now smash them. I tell you, smash them," end quote.

• 1:53:20Jocko Willink?

  So we took this for orders. And on the crest we stood. One booming cannon shot past close along our front. And in the next moment, all was still. So he gets told, don't go up to that crest. But he's in a bad situation anyways. And he thinks, hey, I'm, this isn't good. What are some other orders I've received recently? Well, I've also got told to push things. I've also got told to smash them. So I'm going to take some initiative here and we're going. We're going to get to that crest. And when he gets up there, turns out there's just one cannon shot. We had done it. Had exposed ourselves to the view of the enemy.

• 1:54:04Jocko Willink?

  But it was an exposure that worked two ways. For there burst upon our vision, a mighty scene. Fit cadence, the story of tumultuous years. Encompassed by the cordon of steel that crowned the heights about the courthouse. On the slopes of the valley formed by the sources of the Appomattox. Lay the remnants of that far famed army. Counterpart and companion of our own in momentous history. The army of Northern Virginia. Lee's army. And so now he's standing up in this position, looking down. And can see the entire scene from his elevated position. And including the Appomattox. Appomattox, sorry.

• 1:54:49Jocko Willink?

  Around, and here's what he describes. Around its edges, now trodden to mire. Swarms an indescribable crowd. Worn out soldiers struggling to the front. Demoralized citizen and denizen. White, black and all shades between. Following Lee's army or flying before these suddenly confronted terrible Yankees. Pictured to them as demon shape and bent. Animals too, of all forms and grades. Vehicles of every description and nondescription. Public and domestic, four wheeled or two or one. Heading and moving in every direction. A swarming mass of chaotic confusion.

• 1:55:32Jocko Willink?

  So with a fervor of devout joy, as when perhaps the old crusaders first caught sight of the holy city of their quest, with an uproaring of heart that was half pagan, half prayer, we dash forward to the consummation. A solitary field piece in the edge of town gives an angry but expiring defiance. We press down the little slope, through a little swamp, over a bright swift stream. Our advance is already in the town, only the narrow street between the opposing lines, and hardly that. There is wild work, that looks frightening, but not much killing, nor even hurting. The disheartened enemy, take it easy.

• 1:56:17Jocko Willink?

  Our men take them easier. It is a wild, mild fusing, earnest, but not deadly earnest. A young orderly of mine, unable to contain himself, begs permission to go forward, and dashes in, sword flourishing, as if he was a terrible fellow. His demonstrations seemingly more amusing than resisted, for he soon comes back, hugging four sabers to his breast, speechless at his achievement. New guy going in. So, you can see the Confederate army is kind of falling apart, and these guys are charging

• 1:57:00Jocko Willink?

  in, expecting a fight, and there's just not that much of a fight. And then this. Suddenly rose to our sight another form, close in our own front, a soldierly young figure, handsomely dressed and mounted, a Confederate staff officer undoubtedly, to whom some of my advance line seemed to be pointing, my position.

• 1:57:26Jocko Willink?

  Now I see the white flag earnestly borne, and its possible purport sweeps before my inner vision like a wraith of morning mist.

• 1:57:37Jocko Willink?

  He comes steadily on, the mysterious form in gray, my mood so whimsical sensitive that I could even smile at the material of the flag, wondering where in either army was found a towel, and one so white. But it bore a mighty message, that simple emblem of homely service wafted hitherward above the dark and crimsoned streams that never can wash themselves away.

• 1:58:06Jocko Willink?

  The messenger draws near, dismounts with graceful salutation, and hardly suppressed emotion delivers his message. "Sir, I am from General Gordon. General Lee desires a cessation of hostilities until he can hear from General Grant as to the proposal of surrender."

• 1:58:27Jocko Willink?

  What word is this? So long, so dearly fought for, so feverishly dreamed, but never, but ever snatched away, held hidden and aloof, now smiting the senses with dizzy flash. Surrender? We had no rumor of this from the long messages that had been passing between Grant and Lee for now these two days between, behind us. Surrender? It takes a moment to gather one's speech. "Sir," I answer, "that matter exceeds my authority. I will send to my superior. General Lee is right. He can do no more."

• 1:59:06Jocko Willink?

  All this with a forced calmness covering a tumult of heart and brain.

• 1:59:14Jocko Willink?

  I bid him wait awhile, and the message goes up to my corps commander, General Griffin, leaving me amazed at the boding change.

• 1:59:26Jocko Willink?

  Even here, he's trying to remain calm, like purposely forced calmness.

• 1:59:33Jocko Willink?

  "Now from the right come foaming up in cavalry fashion, two forms I had watched from away beyond. A white flag again held strong aloft, making straight for the little group beneath our battle flag, high-born also the red Maltese cross on a white field that had thrilled hearts long ago. I see now that is one of our cavalry staff in the lead. Indeed, I recognize him, Colonel Whittaker of Custer's staff, and hardly keeping pace with him, a Confederate staff officer. Without dismounting, without salutation, the cavalryman shouts, 'This is unconditional surrender, this is the end.' Then he hastily introduces his companion and adds,

• 2:00:18Jocko Willink?

  "I am just from Gordon and Longstreet. Gordon says, 'For God's sake, stop this infantry, or hell will be to pay. I'll go to Sheridan.'"

• 2:00:30Jocko Willink?

  He adds and dashes away with a white flag, leaving Longstreet's aide with me.

• 2:00:37Jocko Willink?

  The captains cry, "Halt, the rebels want to surrender! The more men want to be there and see it, still to the front where the real fun is."

• 2:00:47Jocko Willink?

  And the forward takes an upward turn, "For when we do succeed in stopping their advance, we cannot keep their arms and legs from flying. To the top of fences and haystacks and chimneys they clamber, to toss their old caps higher in the air, and leave the earth as far below as they can. Dear old General Gregory gallops up to inquire the meaning of this strange departure from accustomed discipline. 'Only that Lee wants time to surrender,' I answer. Glory to God, roars the grave and brave old general. 'Your legs have done it, my men,' he shouts." Galloping up, cap in hand, generously forgiving our disobedience of orders and rash exposure on the dubious crest. True enough, their legs had done it, had matched the cavalry,

• 2:01:32Jocko Willink?

  as Grant admitted, had cut around Lee's best doings, and commanded the grand halt. But other things had done it. The blood was still fresh upon the Quaker Road, the White Oak Ridge, Five Forks, Farmville, High Bridge, and Sailor's Creek. And we take somewhat gravely this compliment of our new commander of the Army of the James. At last, after pardoning something to the spirit of liberty, we get things quiet along the lines. One o'clock comes. No answer from Lee. Nothing for us but to shake hands and take arms to

• 2:02:15Jocko Willink?

  resume hostilities. As I turned to go, General Griffin said to me in a low voice, "Prepare to make or receive an attack in ten minutes." It was a sudden change in tone of our relations, and brought a queer sensation. Where my troops had halted, the opposing lines were in close proximity. The men stacked arms, the men had stacked arms and were resting in place. It did not seem like war we were going to recommence, but willful murder. But the order was only to prepare, and that we did. Our troops were in good position. My advance line across the road, and we stood fast intensely waiting. I had mounted and sat, looking at the scene before me, thinking of all that was impending

• 2:03:00Jocko Willink?

  and depending, when I felt it coming upon. A strange sense of some presence, invisible but powerful, like those unearthly visitants told of an ancient story charged with supernatural message. Disquieted, I turned about, and there behind me, riding in between my two lines, appeared a commanding form, superbly mounted, richly accoutred of imposing, bearing, noble countenance, with expression of deep sadness overmastered by deeper strength. It is no other than Robert E. Lee. And seen by me for the first time within my own lines, I

• 2:03:43Jocko Willink?

  sat immovable with a certain awe and admiration. He was coming with a single staff officer.

• 2:03:52Jocko Willink?

  For the great appointed meeting, which was to determine momentous issues.

• 2:04:00Jocko Willink?

  Not long after, by another in leading road appeared another form, plain, unassuming, simple, and familiar to our eyes, but to the thought, as much inspiring as Lee, in his splendor and his sadness, it is Grant. He too comes with a single aide, a staff officer of Sheridan's. Slouched hat without cord, common soldier blouse, unbuttoned, on which, however, the four stars, high boots, mud splash to the top, trousers tucked inside, no sword but the sword hand deep in the pocket, sitting his saddle with the ease of a born master, taking no notice of anything at all, all his faculties gathered into intense thought

• 2:04:43Jocko Willink?

  and mighty calm, he seemed greater than I had ever seen him, a look of another world about him. No wonder I forgot altogether to salute him, anything like that would have been too little.

• 2:05:10Jocko Willink?

  Staff officers are flying, crying, Lee surrenders. Ah, there was some kind of strength left among those worn and famished men belting the hills around the springs of Appomattox, who rent the air with shouting and uproar as if the earth and sea had joined the song. Our men did what they thought their share, and then went to sleep, as they had need to do. But in the opposite camp, they acted as if they got a hold of something too good to keep, and gave it to the stars.

• 2:05:43Jocko Willink?

  Besides, they had supper that night, which was something of a novelty. For we had divided rations with our old antagonists. Now, they were by our side as suffering brothers. So they're, they're, well, in truth, Longstreet had come over to our camp that evening with an unwanted moisture on his martial cheek and compressed words on his lips. "Gentlemen, I must speak plainly. We are starving over there. For God's sake, can you send us something?" We were men, and we acted like men, knowing we should suffer it for ourselves.

• 2:06:22Jocko Willink?

  We were too short rationed also, and had been for days, but must be for days to come.

• 2:06:33Jocko Willink?

  We sent over to that starving camp, share and share alike, for all there with ourselves.

• 2:06:42Jocko Willink?

  Again, that's like amazing to, the sort of mutual respect almost instantly to try and help out these, your enemy.

• 2:06:52Speaker 01

  How about Longstreet's coming over by, he's not sending a staff officer or anybody else, he's going

• 2:06:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:59Speaker 01

  to say, "Hey, bring my guys some food."

• 2:07:03Jocko Willink?

  So there's some forgiveness.

• 2:07:07Jocko Willink?

  This was also interesting. "Late that night, I was summoned to headquarters, where General Griffin informed me that I was to command the parade on the occasion of the formal surrender of the arms and colors of Lee's army.

• 2:07:20Jocko Willink?

  He said the Confederates had begged hard to be allowed to stack their arms on the ground where they were, and let us go pick them up after they had gone."

• 2:07:31Jocko Willink?

  So that was their plan. The Confederates said, "Hey, let us just leave our weapons and we're gonna bail." But Grant did not think this quite respectful enough to anybody, including the United States of America. And while he would have all private property respected and would permit officers to retain their sidearms, he insisted that surrender, that the surrendering army as such, should march out in due order and lay down all tokens of Confederate authority and organized hostility to the United States in an immediate presence of some representative portion of the Union Army. Griffin added in a significant tone that Grant wished the ceremony to be as simple as possible, and that nothing should be done to humiliate the manhood of the Southern soldiers.

• 2:08:19Jocko Willink?

  So there's like a little balance there. Like, hey, we'll share some food with you, but you gotta come and, you gotta come and surrender proper.

• 2:08:32Jocko Willink?

  It was now the morning of the 12th of April.

• 2:08:36Jocko Willink?

  I had been ordered to have my lines formed for the ceremony at sunrise. It was a chill gray morning depressing to the senses. We formed along the principal street. We were the remnants also. Massachusetts, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New York. Veterans and replaced veterans. Cut to pieces, cut down, consolidated, divisions into brigades, regiments into one, gathered by state origin, back to their place of birth. This little line.

• 2:09:11Jocko Willink?

  Quint- quintessence of metacycosis of Porter's old corps of Gaines, Mill, of Maverick Hill. Men of near bloodborne, made nearer by bloodshed.

• 2:09:26Jocko Willink?

  Those facing us, now thank God, the same.

• 2:09:35Jocko Willink?

  Our earnest eyes can scan the busy groups on the opposite slopes, breaking camp for the last time, taking down the little shelter tents and folding them carefully as precious things, then slowly forming ranks as for unwelcome duty. And now they move, the dusky swarms forge forward into gray columns of march, on they come with the old swinging root step and swaying battle flags. Instructions had been given, and when the head of each division column comes opposite our camp, our bugle sounds the signal, and instantly our whole line, from right to left,

• 2:10:16Jocko Willink?

  regiment by regiment in succession, gives the soldiers salutation, from the order arms to the old carry, the marching salute. Gordon, at the head of the column, riding with heavy spirit and downcast face, catches the sound of shifting arms, looks up and taking the meaning, wheels superbly, making himself and his horse one uplifted figure, with the profound salutation as he drops the point of his sword to the boot toe, then facing to his own command, gives word for successive brigades to pass us with the same position of manual. Honor, answering for honor.

• 2:10:55Jocko Willink?

  Our part, on our part, not a sound of trumpet, nor roll of drum, not a cheer, nor word of whisper, of vain gloring, nor motion of a man standing again at the order, but an awed stillness, rather, and breath-holding, as if it were the passing of the dead. They fix bayonets, stack arms, then hesitantly remove cartridge boxes and lay them down. Lastly, reluctantly, with agony of expression, they tenderly fold their flags, battle-worn

• 2:11:37Jocko Willink?

  and torn, blood-stained, heart-holding colors, and lay them down, some frenziedly rushing from the ranks, kneeling over them, clinging to them, pressing them to their lips with burning tears. And only the flag of the Union greets the sky.

• 2:11:59Jocko Willink?

  What visions thronged as we looked into each other's eyes. Here passed the men of Antietam, the Bloody Lane, the sunken road, the cornfield, the Burnside Bridge, the men whom Stonewall Jackson on the second night at Fredericksburg begged Lee to let him take and crush the two corps of the Army of the Potomac, huddled in the streets in the darkness and confusion. The men who swept the 11th Corps at Chancellorsville, who left 6,000 of their companions around the bases of Culp's and Cemetery Hills at Gettysburg. These survivors of the terrible wilderness, the Bloody Angle at Spotsylvania, the slaughter pen of Cold Harbor, the whirlpool of Bethesda Church. Here comes Cobb's Georgia Legion,

• 2:12:42Jocko Willink?

  which held the stone wall on Mary's Heights at Fredericksburg, clothes before which we piled our dead for breastwork, so that the living might stay alive. Here too come Gordon's Georgians and Hoax North Carolinians, who stood before the terrific mine explosion at Petersburg and advancing retook the smoking crater and the dismal heaps of dead, ours more than theirs, huddled in the ghastly chasm. Here are the men of McGowan's hunting in scales, who broke the 5th Corps lines on the White Oak Road and were so desperately driven back on that forlorn night of March the 31st by thrice-decimated brigade.

• 2:13:26Jocko Willink?

  Now comes Anderson's 4th Corps, only Bushrod Johnson's division left. And this the remnant of those we fought so fiercely on Quaker Road two weeks ago, with Wise's Legion, too fierce for its own good.

• 2:13:45Jocko Willink?

  Here passes the proud remnant of Ransoms North Carolinians, who were swept through Five Forks 10 days ago, and all the little that was left of this division in the sharp passages at Sailor's Creek five days thereafter.

• 2:14:04Jocko Willink?

  Now makes its last front, A.P. Hill's old corps. Heth now at the lead since Hill had gone too far forward, ever to return. The men who poured destruction into our division at Shepherdstown forward, Antietam in 62, when Hill reported the Potomac, the Potomac running blue with our bodies. The men who opened the desperate first days' fight at Gettysburg, where,

• 2:14:30Jocko Willink?

  withstanding them so stubbornly, our Robinson's Brigade lost 1,185 men, and the Iron Brigade alone, 1,153. These men of Heth's division here, too, losing 2,850 men. Companions of these now looking into our faces so differently.

• 2:14:51Jocko Willink?

  Now, the sad, great pageant, Longstreet and his men. What shall we give them for greeting that has not already been spoken in volleys of thunder, and written in lines of fire all over the banks of Virginia?

• 2:15:06Jocko Willink?

  Shall we go back to Gaines Mill or Malvern Hill? Or to Antietam, of Maryland? Or Gettysburg of Pennsylvania? Deepest graven of all, for here is what remains of Kershaw's division. Which left forty percent of its men at Antietam, and at Gettysburg with Barksdale and Semes Brigade tore through the Peach Orchard, rolling up our, rolling up the right of our gallant 3rd Corps, sweeping over the proud batteries of Massachusetts, Bigelow, and Phillips. Where, under the smoke, we saw earth brown and blue, with prostrated bodies of men and horses, and the tongues of overturned cannon, pointing grim and stark in the air.

• 2:15:53Jocko Willink?

  Then in the wilderness, and at Spotsylvania, Kershaw again, in deeds of awful glory, and thereafter, for all their losses, holding their name and fame, until fate met them at Sailor's Creek, where all but these, with Kershaw himself, and Ull, Yule, and so many more, gave up their arms and hopes, all in deed, but manhood's honor.

• 2:16:23Jocko Willink?

  With what strange emotion I looked into these faces before, which in the mad assault river,

• 2:16:30Jocko Willink?

  on Reeves Salient, June 18th, 64, I was left for dead under their eyes.

• 2:16:37Jocko Willink?

  It is by miracles we have lived to see this day, any of us standing here.

• 2:16:45Jocko Willink?

  Now comes the sinewy remnant of fierce Hood's division, which at Gettysburg we saw pouring through the devil's den and plum run gorge, turning again by the left our stubborn third corps, then swarming up the rocky bastions of Round Top to be met there by equal valor, which changed Lee's whole plan of battle and perhaps the story of Gettysburg.

• 2:17:09Jocko Willink?

  Ah, is this Pickett's division? This little group, left of those who on the lurid last day of Gettysburg, breasted level crossfire and thunderbolts of storm to be strewn back drifting wrecks, where after that awful futile pitiful charge, we buried them in graves of furlong wide with names unknown.

• 2:17:40Jocko Willink?

  Men again in the terrible cyclone sweep over the breastworks at Five Forks, met now so thin, so pale, purged of the mortal, as if knowing pain or joy no more.

• 2:17:54Jocko Willink?

  How could we help falling on our knees, all of us together, and praying God to pity and forgive us all?

• 2:18:20Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:18:26Jocko Willink?

  You know, I don't know if you can capture the emotions that these guys must have felt on both sides at this juncture, but that must be a pretty close proximity to at least the best you could do to capture those emotions.

• 2:18:44Jocko Willink?

  And there's another, the book goes on.

• 2:18:49Jocko Willink?

  And there's a powerful section where he, because that section there, you know, he kind of calls out name by name of the various units. And there's a section where there's a parade for the Army of the Potomac. And it's incredible, incredibly powerful as well. And he goes by unit by unit.

• 2:19:12Jocko Willink?

  There's one point where he brings up the fact that while Warren was, Warren, there was basically a trial. Because Warren said, hey, I shouldn't have been fired. He wanted to kind of redeem himself. And there's, he brings up a point where someone was asking, one of the, one of the cross-examining lawyers asked Warren, hey, when you were in this battle, where, where were your regulars? And Warren looks at him with a bold and quivering lip and says, buried, sir, at Gettysburg.

• 2:19:45Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, that's, it's, it's hard to do this book justice without just reading the entire thing. And there's just stories upon stories in, in this book. And

• 2:20:03Jocko Willink?

  lessons, so many lessons that we, we barely touched into. Like I said before, if you get a chance to go to Gettysburg, go there. Go there. We go there. If you want to come there with us, go check that out, but.

• 2:20:20Jocko Willink?

  There's one more section that I wanted to cover in the book.

• 2:20:27Jocko Willink?

  Joshua Chamberlain is...

• 2:20:31Jocko Willink?

  He's with some of his surviving troops in Maine. And there'd been some kind of scrambling of the organization, the 20th May to become combined with the 16th and the 2nd. And the war's finished. And I tried to figure out how long after the war this was. I couldn't quite identify when exactly this was, but they're at a banquet and Chamberlain... You know, this whole, both these podcasts, we were talking about the flags and the meaning of these colors, right? What they meant, what they represented. And during the defense of Little Round Top, at some point, they had lost their colors.

• 2:21:12Jocko Willink?

  At some point, you know, during this freaking mayhem, they lost their colors and

• 2:21:20Jocko Willink?

  it, you know, this is a symbolic event. Like I said, like Hugh was saying, it's a tactical event. There's actually a tactical reason for those colors, but it's also symbolic as well.

• 2:21:33Jocko Willink?

  And at some point, these... During the Battle of Gettysburg, and I'm not exactly sure when it was, I don't even know if it was during Round Top, that defense, but at some point, the soldiers from Maine, the colors were lost for a little while. And Chamberlain wants to address that directly to the surviving troops in this, in this speech. And I just want to read one section of it.

• 2:22:01Jocko Willink?

  He says, "Your colors," it was said, "were lost."

• 2:22:08Jocko Willink?

  "That word came to me when, on the morning of the 2nd, I reached the crest far to the rear of that where you had stood. And I felt the shock, but not of shame. For I knew something terrible must have befallen, and that there could have been no dishonor where you were." But when I came to know the truth of it all, I saw that instead of your colors being lost, they were eternally saved. Not laid down, but lifted up. Not captured, nor surrendered, but translated, the shadow lost in substance, the flag.

• 2:22:51Jocko Willink?

  It is the symbol of the country's honor, power, law, and life. It is the ensign of loyalty, the bond of brotherhood for those who stand under it, a token and an inspiration.

• 2:23:06Jocko Willink?

  Hence, it is held sacred by the soldier, as in great moments, it is also by the citizen.

• 2:23:15Jocko Willink?

  All which that flag symbolized, you had illustrated and impersonated, had absorbed into your thoughts and hearts.

• 2:23:26Jocko Willink?

  If I should not rather say, itself had absorbed your thoughts and hearts, your service and suffering into its own deeper meaning and dearer honor.

• 2:23:40Jocko Willink?

  Now, it had done all a symbol could do. You had stood for it all.

• 2:23:49Jocko Willink?

  Now the supreme moment had come. Nothing could be averted, nothing could be resisted, nothing could be escaped. That was an awful moment, passing that of death, it seems to me.

• 2:24:02Jocko Willink?

  Then, a new soul is born. No thought of yielding up the token of the country's honor enters the heart of any one of you, though it has fulfilled its ends, though you are to go to prison and death. Your Colonel, calm and dauntless, Commander Still, bids you break the staff that have borne it aloft and tear that symbol, single as your souls into many pieces as you had bosoms, and shelter them with your lives, lest that flag be touched by hostile hand or triumphed over living man.

• 2:24:44Jocko Willink?

  Lost?

• 2:24:47Jocko Willink?

  There is a way of losing that is finding.

• 2:24:52Jocko Willink?

  When soul overmasters sense, when the noble and divine self overcomes the lower self, when duty and honor and love immortal things bid the mortal perish.

• 2:25:09Jocko Willink?

  It is only when a man supremely gives

• 2:25:14Jocko Willink?

  that he supremely finds.

• 2:25:18Jocko Willink?

  That was your sacrifice. That is your reward.

• 2:25:40Speaker 01

  When we talked about the surrender, it was him describing it and you know, later parts of the books, you find out that that salute that they gave to the Confederates, they weren't ordered to do that. He just straight up did that out of chivalry. And then as the Confederates are coming past and they think that the, you know, they're like, ah, man, you know, their heads are down and they see that, you know, they think the Union Armory is making fun of them or laughing at them or scoffing at them.

• 2:26:14Speaker 01

  And they receive that salute.

• 2:26:17Speaker 01

  And they give the salute back. It's just incredible, incredible description.

• 2:26:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's um.

• 2:26:35Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what else I can do. Um, do the, do the audiobook, I think at some point. I just freaking sit here and read this whole thing.

• 2:26:42Speaker 01

  In your best main accent.

• 2:26:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, my best main accent. I'll also work. I apologize that sometimes I pronounce words wrong. Um, and I'm sorry.

• 2:26:52Jocko Willink?

  I'm just kind of reading it and I don't feel like doing nine takes to say words that I can't say very well. So I apologize about that, that I don't do that justice. But so many lessons in this book, just about how to be a good human being. And I, I, I still, I know we just did two podcasts on them, on it, but it's, there's so much in there. This guy is such an incredible example, the way he lived, the things he did, his attitude. And really, you know,

• 2:27:24Jocko Willink?

  some, some people talk about the divisiveness, you know, in America right now. And you know, you hear people say, oh, it's never been this bad before. Well, you know what? It has, it's been freaking infinitely worse, infinitely worse.

• 2:27:40Jocko Willink?

  And the fact that you could go through a divisiveness so incredibly,

• 2:27:49Jocko Willink?

  incredibly violent. I mean, this is our war where we just, just, it was a slaughter. Think about that last podcast, the things that, the descriptions he's giving on those battlefields. But if we as a nation can go through that,

• 2:28:06Jocko Willink?

  that, that insane violence. And at the end of that, at the end of that, at the end of killing each other,

• 2:28:18Jocko Willink?

  wholesale slaughtering each other, at the end of that,

• 2:28:23Jocko Willink?

  the very men that, that fought each other, that killed each other, those very men can stand and salute each other.

• 2:28:36Jocko Willink?

  And respect each other. And decide that we should stay a union.

• 2:28:46Jocko Willink?

  If we as a country can get through that, then I only can hope that we can move past some of the bickering that we have today.

• 2:29:03Jocko Willink?

  And hold up this flag.

• 2:29:08Jocko Willink?

  And unify all of us together. To continue to provide a place in the world.

• 2:29:18Jocko Willink?

  With freedom.

• 2:29:22Jocko Willink?

  For all.

• 2:29:32Jocko Willink?

  So, thanks for listening.

• 2:29:36Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for your support in what we're doing. Like I said, if you want to come out, you want to hang out with myself and Jason and the rest of the Echelon Front team. You want to walk these battlefields.

• 2:29:51Jocko Willink?

  You want to feel some freaking emotions, you want to have a spiritual experience. Come and check out these events that we do. We got in May, the 11th and 12th, then May, the 13th and 14th at Gettysburg. And then we're going also to Little Big Horn in August 16th, 17th, and then another session 18th and 19th.

• 2:30:14Jocko Willink?

  Come and check it out. If you can't go with us, read these books. Think about what these people went through. Think about what they overcame. It's, um.

• 2:30:25Jocko Willink?

  It's history and we should never forget, we should never forget this, this history that we have in this country. And.

• 2:30:33Jocko Willink?

  What we've been through. We've been through a ton.

• 2:30:38Jocko Willink?

  We can't forget that. Should keep us together.

• 2:30:44Jocko Willink?

  What else, Echo Charles?

• 2:30:47Jocko Willink?

  We need to de- this is the old school decompression scenario?

• 2:30:53Speaker 02

  Actually, the small thing I thought, it's not, not quite as serious. But I will say this, so, you know, it's, what is it about?

• 2:31:01Speaker 02

  When you have like enemies, right? Or even people who just don't like each other, any form of like enemy. And then they go through like all this like ups and downs and they fight each other or in.

• 2:31:12Speaker 01

  And then at the end, like they become friends or whatever, maybe they reconcile and they become friends. What, what is it about that that makes everyone feel so good afterwards?

• 2:31:21Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I would say part of it is the shared struggle, right? Like you've been through some shit, I've been through some shit. Okay, like there's a shared struggle, even if we're not opposing it. I mean, you think of a football game, you play a good game against someone and it's a scrap. And you're throwing down, it's muddy and it's close, like you, when you say good game to that person, you mean it, right? You mean it. So I think that shared struggle and then, you know, like part of it has got to be like, thank God, this is over. You know, I got that feeling from the southern soldiers that they were like, thank God, this is over. Like I'm done.

• 2:31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, and there's an opportunity for redemption. Right? When, when you're fighting someone and they're your enemy and then at the end of it, we're like, hey, we're not enemies anymore.

• 2:32:10Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:32:12Speaker 01

  There's a redemption, there's an end to it, because if we keep holding that animosity, it never ends.

• 2:32:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:19Speaker 01

  And there's no, there's no healing, there's nothing else like that. And so like, you know, you didn't cover it, but like.

• 2:32:26Speaker 01

  There's, what you did where they're sharing their meals, but they were, they were trading stuff for like. There was like an intermingling there for a couple of hours where they were trading souvenirs with one another. And that's incredible when you're talking about men that, and a couple of hours before that. Had walked all freaking night and part of the day to kill one another and now they're just like, oh, we're done.

• 2:32:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And by the way, they just killed each other a week before that and a month before that and six months before that. You know, this is just a bloody, bloody, awful, awful war.

• 2:33:00Speaker 01

  It's so, it's like the Christmas story in World War One.

• 2:33:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:04Speaker 01

  It's an indicator that we're not. Bad.

• 2:33:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  It's, it's one of those things where these, these, these, you know, great things happens and it indicates that we're just, we're, we're not. Like sure, we're flawed as human beings, but we're not flawed beyond redemption.

• 2:33:20Jocko Willink?

  And I think the, the, the thing that I get out of like the, the Christmas truce and this ceremony here at the end is, is just that. Not that, not even, I don't, I, I don't know if we're not bad or not. I definitely indicates that we're not, right? It indicates, but also it indicates to me that. We all have way more in common than we have not in common. And like, when you get to the point, at the end of the day, Jason Gardner has to eat, has to shit, has to make money, has to feed his family, has to. Help out with, you know, what you're doing in the world and I'm over here, I have to eat, I have to shit, I have to take care of my family.

• 2:34:05Jocko Willink?

  And I want my kids to have a good life and you want your kids to have a good life and I, I don't want, you know, I, I want to have some kind of stability in my life and you want to have some kind of stability in your life. And so we. We, we have so much in common and we let things that are sort of oftentimes, if you put them in a bigger picture, totally irrelevant. I mean, that's what was shocking about the Brits and the Germans having freak play up playing soccer is. Like, those guys didn't give a shit what was going on with some freaking king somewhere.

• 2:34:42Jocko Willink?

  They didn't care. They're like, what? I, I, why do I care about this land over here in France? I live in Germany, bro. You live in England. Like, I don't care. The French people lived here, let them live here. What are we doing?

• 2:34:58Jocko Willink?

  So we get wrapped around some dumb shit.

• 2:35:02Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, in this case, it's, it's definitely a, a very distinct reason for fighting. And the union had to go through this turmoil to rid itself of slavery. Had to go through it. There was no other way. It wasn't gonna, it wasn't gonna go easy. You had to do this kind of massive war to get, to get through that. Um, but we did.

• 2:35:34Jocko Willink?

  And now we can go get stuff from originusa.com. You're supposed to come in and like help, bro. You're supposed to say some shit like that to like make me cough out over here.

• 2:35:44Speaker 02

  That was a rough, rough transition. But I, but I think it is like, it's like, um, like after you fight for so long, it's almost like you lose, you almost forget, kind of like these min, like minimal things that, or evidently minimal things that you're quote unquote, fighting for and you start remembering all the commonality stuff and then you start to get kind of exhausted in a way where you're like, just like I said, like, what are we doing? Like you kind of forget what you're fighting for. You're just so habitually caught up in the fight. And then finally, when you, it's almost like you kind of snapped in and be like, wait a second. Like we're fighting over something super small, but meanwhile, we have all these commonalities that are so big. And then it's like a fight, it's like a relief, you know?

• 2:36:26Speaker 02

  And I think even when you engage in a battle, what do you call it? When two other people battle and you're just witnessing it and you see a battle and you're taking this guy's side, then you're taking this guy's side or whatever, and then they finally make up, you kind of feel good too, for some reason. Like, you ever seen like a rivalry end between some people? It like feels kind of good.

• 2:36:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, sometimes I've gotten asked a couple of times like, do I, would I want to go back to Iraq? And like, and I'm not there yet at all. I'm not like, hey, you're gonna go check it out. Check the battlefield in Ramadi. Look at, go look at Baghdad. Like I'm not there. I'm not, I don't have any desire to do that. I don't know if I'll get there.

• 2:37:03Speaker 01

  Ramadi's just like rubble anyway.

• 2:37:06Jocko Willink?

  They're not rebuilding it at all?

• 2:37:07Speaker 01

  I don't know, but I think when liberating it from ISIS didn't go well.

• 2:37:12Jocko Willink?

  I saw those videos. It was freaking rubble.

• 2:37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:17Jocko Willink?

  House by house like, oh, there might be bad guys in there. Nuke it.

• 2:37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I, I don't know. When you had Holly Mackey on and she talked about Afghanistan falling and then, um, you know, the story about the two, the Taliban guys who slept outside of her hotel room because they were, they wanted to protect her. So even.

• 2:37:45Speaker 01

  They're our enemy and, and, and, and you can see your enemies acting with, with honor. And I think that was definitely honorable because I didn't think that was going to work out that well for her. When I heard that story, I'm like, how did you even make it back?

• 2:37:56Jocko Willink?

  I know. I was like, when she was over there, I was like, hmm, it might be a good time to leave, might be good. You're not going to be able to leave now, you know? Yeah. Oh my, you should probably leave, you should probably leave. Oh, you're not going to be able to get out of there. And she got out of there. Boy, she's a brave woman.

• 2:38:10Jocko Willink?

  I, I asked her, like, do you think you maybe you're a little naive? She's like, yeah, maybe. You know, I wouldn't be rolling around in there. Maybe I'm too paranoid. Maybe I'm too risk averse.

• 2:38:22Speaker 01

  Wait, you just see one too many videos?

• 2:38:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:25Speaker 01

  Somebody in an orange jumpsuit, somewhere they weren't supposed to be. And you're just like, uh.

• 2:38:31Jocko Willink?

  God. Um, all right. What else, Echo?

• 2:38:34Speaker 02

  Speaking of videos. Origin USA. They've got some cool videos on their YouTube channel. If you're interested, you can see how all the American made stuff is made, including Jocko Fuel, by the way.

• 2:38:47Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And guess what? We, uh, at Origin Maine have unified the North and the South. We have, uh, we have factories up in Maine. We have factories in North Carolina. We're all on the same team, the American team. The healing is continues. The healing continues. Uh, I haven't been down to the North Carolina factory. I'm looking forward to getting down there and meeting everyone. I got, I got some roots in North Carolina. And, you know, I obviously have the root, the New England roots. New Englanda.

• 2:39:19Speaker 02

  Who's your roots at?

• 2:39:19Jocko Willink?

  Just on the, uh, on my mom's side.

• 2:39:22Speaker 01

  I was born there.

• 2:39:23Speaker 02

  I've got some roots in South Carolina.

• 2:39:25Jocko Willink?

  You do?

• 2:39:26Speaker 02

  My dad's side.

• 2:39:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:27Speaker 01

  Beautiful state.

• 2:39:28Speaker 02

  True story.

• 2:39:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You, you're, you're a straight up, uh, uh, descendant of slaves, correct? From South Carolina?

• 2:39:36Speaker 02

  South Carolina, yeah.

• 2:39:38Jocko Willink?

  That, uh, at the end of the Civil War, about 10% of the Union Army was.

• 2:39:48Jocko Willink?

  Former slaves that had escaped to the north and if you think about that number, 10% of the Union Army, that means basically every able-bodied former slave man, straight up just went and fought. Freaking legit. That's freaking legit.

• 2:40:10Speaker 02

  But yeah, speaking of legit, look, okay, we'll talk about some energy drinks legitimate, not illegitimate. Cause that's a stigma that energy drinks you have. We don't have that anymore. Choco, go. Healthy energy drink. Jason, you know about this. I heard you last time. You hear me? Um, uh, also a lot of other good supplements. Uh, again, American made stuff.

• 2:40:30Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:40:31Speaker 02

  Good supplements. Go to chocofuel.com. Got some taste good protein. Got some, uh, joint health stuff.

• 2:40:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I'm, and you kind of need a bulk right now, to be honest.

• 2:40:41Jocko Willink?

  Do you get, do you get taught, do you get, I don't know what the word is. Cause last time we talked about jujitsu, post jujitsu fatigue sets in, right? Hour and a half after jujitsu tired. You leave jujitsu wired, kind of like amped, hyped. By the time you get home, if you get home and then you eat, you're, you're going into some serious like sleep mode. Same thing with the podcast. Like I get done with the podcast, I'm super freaking hyped for like an hour and a half.

• 2:41:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:41:08Jocko Willink?

  Maybe two hours and then all this, no, it's not an hour, it's not two hours. I got like an hour and a half of energy. I'll usually try and go home and start prepping my next podcast because I know I have energy that I need to do something with. But then it's mentally taxing to think and read and react and you're so like deep into it. And you're getting emotional. I'm freaking getting emotional reading a freaking book today, right? Like, that's all happening. What does that mean? Is, if I'm getting emotional, reading a book, is that taking the same emotional toll or having the same emotional impact as it is if I,

• 2:41:47Jocko Willink?

  watch a movie? Is it the same as if it, if I have like something happen in my life? What's the difference?

• 2:41:54Speaker 02

  Probably the movie is probably similar, not in life, because life kind of like the emotional part of life, kind of continues, right? Cause your life is actually, the movie ends and you're like, cool story. Book, I mean, even though this one's true, it's like, okay, that story is kind of done.

• 2:42:08Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, but like.

• 2:42:10Speaker 01

  There's an emotion of pride that I feel when I hear these stories that again, when I, when I see my kid like doing something or someone that I'm, I'm proud for them. It's kind of, it's almost the same experience, but it is a shorter burn for sure.

• 2:42:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, this, it's like, this is always gonna be the case. This happened, no matter what happens from now, you know, kind of thing. But when you read the book, it kind of calls your attention to it, you know, and that's what's gonna evoke these emotions. Same thing with a movie.

• 2:42:37Jocko Willink?

  But when I read this book or books like this, I'm having the emotions that I'm feeling are probably one third the emotion from the book and two third emotion of my own memories.

• 2:42:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's how movies are too, right?

• 2:42:53Jocko Willink?

  Like, like I get, like I think about these situations that unfolded and I'm thinking about situations that unfolded for me, obviously not to the degree of, but you know, like you can't help thinking about that stuff. And so even though it it, it, it, it comes quick and then you can close the book and it's over, but you still were in there.

• 2:43:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:17Jocko Willink?

  So I'll be freaking sleep like a baby tonight.

• 2:43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. After your milkshake.

• 2:43:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. After half the time. That's what I was saying. Cause the milkshake also just stimulates like a form of

• 2:43:30Jocko Willink?

  yeah, pleasure centers and of, of, of, of safety and of right comfort. Yeah. You know, you have a milk and you're kind of like, bro, it's all good, you know? The world's good. It kind of, kind of takes you to a psychological area where things are good. Like there's no, you're not storming up a blood soaked hill and drinking a milk. Those are the opposite ends of the spectrum. So I'll go have a milk as like a way to wind down a little bit. Enter the zone, the milk zone. So there you go. Check it out. jogofuel.com, originusa.com, Jocko's store. We sell shirts at Jocko's store.

• 2:44:12Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:44:12Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 2:44:13Speaker 01

  Shirts, hats, these merch, if you will. Discipline equals freedom. It's got some new stuff on there.

• 2:44:19Jocko Willink?

  What's up with the Grays Against the Machine shirt that you're wearing? Is it like a group? Is it just a thing?

• 2:44:24Speaker 01

  No, man, it's a, it's a, it's a, uh, a buddy of mine that's into regenerative ag.

• 2:44:29Jocko Willink?

  Well, sweet.

• 2:44:30Speaker 01

  Had the shirt made up.

• 2:44:31Jocko Willink?

  Grays Against the Machine. What if people want to order one? What's the guy?

• 2:44:35Speaker 01

  I don't even know if they make them anymore.

• 2:44:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just got it.

• 2:44:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I will figure, I'll figure that out and post something in the notes.

• 2:44:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we can throw them out if we want to make them, if he wants to make them or whatever.

• 2:44:48Jocko Willink?

  Uh, subscribe to the podcast, jockounderground.com. Once again, I don't know what's getting, I don't know who's getting shut down for what. I don't know what, there's some crazy stuff going on in Canada right now. People are getting shut down. They're getting their finances halted. That's what's happening right now. This isn't like me talking about some dystopian future where things have gone awry. It's like what's happening in Canada.

• 2:45:12Speaker 01

  They're doing that without court order and all that other scary stuff.

• 2:45:16Jocko Willink?

  So that's kind of crazy.

• 2:45:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:45:19Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what's gonna happen here, but if it happens, we're gonna be on the underground. If you want to help us out there, uh, jockounderground.com, go subscribe. It costs eight dollars and eighteen cents a month. If you can't afford that, we're not casting you out of the zone of freedom. You just have to email assistance at jockounderground.com. YouTube channel, check that out.

• 2:45:42Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 2:45:43Jocko Willink?

  Psychological warfare, flip side canvas, Dakota Meyer. Uh, making cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books about leadership. You can also get bayonet forward. If you want to get these books, you can go to jockopodcast.com and go to books on the podcast.

• 2:45:58Speaker 01

  Books from episodes, yeah.

• 2:46:00Jocko Willink?

  And they're all there. They're kind of a list in order of the books I recommend you read. Now, would all things being if I was to restack that book, that, that thing, would they be adjusted a little bit? There'd be some adjustments. This book would be further up there. I was never a huge Civil War guy until probably like five years ago. I don't know. It seemed like it was too far ago, whatever. No, like, don't get me wrong. It's not like I wasn't interested in the Civil War at all, but I wasn't go, I didn't start going deep. Not like, you know, for me, it was always kind of number one NOM, closest memory. Number two, World War II. Number three, Korea, because we didn't hear as much about that as we needed

• 2:46:45Jocko Willink?

  to. So, Civil War. There's been people asking me about the Civil. I've got a stack of books, stack of books, ready for the podcast that I, this is the one we're starting with, I guess.

• 2:47:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So you can get all that stuff at jocko podcast.com. We have a leadership consultancy. If you want to check that out, we talk about leadership, not just in war. In fact, very little in war. Now it's about business. So, go to echelonfront.com for that. We have an online trading academy. Go to extremeownership.com. If you have a question about any of this and you want to ask Jason Gardner, or you want to ask me, or you want to ask Leif, or any of us, JP Denell, you want to ask him something, go to extremeownership.com and you can go on to one of our Zoom sessions, you can just ask away. You can ask 19 questions if you want to.

• 2:47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then there's a bunch of other people who are in the game and on the path.

• 2:47:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:42Speaker 01

  And you can hear the questions they're asking, because they probably have the same, and they do, they have the same problems you do.

• 2:47:47Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep.

• 2:47:48Speaker 01

  It's fantastic.

• 2:47:49Jocko Willink?

  So, that's extremeownership.com. And then we have some charities, AmericasMightyWarriors.org, doing great stuff by Mama Lee, Mark Lee's mom, and then also Heroes and Horses.com. Check that one out. Both of these organizations looking to help out people who have served. And if you want to hear more from us, we're on social media.

• 2:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Which means in order to enter that, you gotta go, you gotta go play Russian roulette with the algorithm.

• 2:48:19Speaker 02

  More like dodgeball, to be honest.

• 2:48:21Jocko Willink?

  You know, you can, you know, you can have some fun with it for sure. But yeah, you get the, if that thing gets ahead of you, you get caught up in a spiral. They're not letting that happen in China, by the way, because their kids aren't allowed to be on after such and such a time. And the things that they're allowed to look at are controlled by the state. Now, I don't support controlling things by the state, certainly. But if you don't pay attention, you can waste forty-five minutes on social media.

• 2:48:52Speaker 02

  Forty-five minutes.

• 2:48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you wind up, you're like, hey, what is my thumb doing? Why did it just go right there, hit Instagram? And now I'm sweeping past, I'm like, oh, stop it.

• 2:49:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the algorithms got you.

• 2:49:06Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:49:07Jocko Willink?

  Echo's trying to defend the algorithm last time.

• 2:49:09Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 2:49:10Jocko Willink?

  The algorithm is like fire, right?

• 2:49:12Speaker 02

  It's like fire.

• 2:49:13Jocko Willink?

  It's okay, you can use it if you use it in a controlled way, but it can really easy catch, catch hold of your whole household. Everything's burning, everything's on fire.

• 2:49:20Speaker 02

  Very dis-

• 2:49:20Jocko Willink?

  So be careful. Jason, on Instagram, he's at Jason dot N, Jot dot Gardner. And on Twitter, he's Jason N Gardner. And on the Twitter, on the Gram, and on the Facebook.

• 2:49:39Jocko Willink?

  Echo's at Echo Charles. I am at Jocko Willink. And of course, thanks to all the military personnel out there for holding us safe here in the world. Holding up the flag and doing your best to represent the ideals so everyone can see.

• 2:50:02Jocko Willink?

  We appreciate that. And of course, here at home, thanks to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all the first responders, thank you for what you do here at home to keep us safe.

• 2:50:19Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, remember that there is a way of losing that is finding.

• 2:50:30Jocko Willink?

  And as Joshua Chamberlain said, "It is only when a man supremely gives

• 2:50:39Jocko Willink?

  that he supremely finds."

• 2:50:44Jocko Willink?

  So go out there and give.

• 2:50:48Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Jason and Echo and Jaco. Out.