Why No Is More Powerful Than Yes | Chris Voss

Chris Voss, former lead FBI international kidnapping negotiator and founder of The Black Swan Group, discusses tactics from his bestselling book Never Split the Difference, including the Black Swan Method, calibrated questions, and the accusations audit. Voss explains why yes is often a counterfeit signal in negotiation, why no unlocks real progress, and shares FBI hostage cases alongside everyday tactics for negotiating discounts, upgrades, and raises.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Lewis Howes?

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• 0:46Lewis Howes?

  Where do you think the confidence comes from in negotiation? How can we gain more confidence when we're mastering some of the strategies from your book and from your workshops and trainings that you guys do? How does someone develop that confidence?

• 0:59Chris Voss?

  I'll someone break that into two parts, the type of confidence and developing the confidence. Because there's a lot of empty, vacuous confidence out there. Like I am like

• 1:11Lewis Howes?

  False confidence.

• 1:11Chris Voss?

  The false confidence. And I, you know, this one guy, we talked to about a possible investment in a company. You know, I pointed out, you know, how I thought their numbers were flawed. And then the guy said, well, I'm confident I can make these numbers anyway. And I'm like, all right, so we're walking away from you right now. Because you just told me you have confidence in the things that I just pointed out to you that were flawed, instead of actually listening to what I said. Now, the confidence that you spoke about a moment ago, the way you lived it and what you said, it wasn't confidence, it was confidence in connecting. And that's the critical point.

• 1:48Lewis Howes?

  With people.

• 1:48Chris Voss?

  With people, connecting with somebody and the desire to connect with them, which is also the whole point of the negotiation. The black swan method is about succeeding with people, not at their, not at their expense. You know, getting better at negotiation, not necessarily at the expense of other people. In point of fact, making the other person's position better also.

• 2:11Lewis Howes?

  Not hurting them.

• 2:13Chris Voss?

  Not hurting.

• 2:14Lewis Howes?

  But them succeeding and you succeeding.

• 2:16Chris Voss?

  Right, because you want to repeat business.

• 2:18Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 2:18Chris Voss?

  And if you hurt them, they're not going to repeat.

• 2:20Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 2:20Chris Voss?

  So connecting with people, negotiating with people, that's your confidence is a desire for that and a genuine sincerity and enthusiasm for it.

• 2:30Lewis Howes?

  How does someone do that when they know what they want is not what the other person wants?

• 2:35Chris Voss?

  Well, and that's only if it's short term.

• 2:38Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 2:38Chris Voss?

  And then, then if it really gets at the risk of that, you make what you want the path to what they want. Like, you know, I love seeing the black swan method thrown, showing up in the real world. So of course, somebody sends me a clip from Shark Tank. And Kevin O'Leary got black swanned.

• 2:56Lewis Howes?

  Okay, tell me.

• 2:57Chris Voss?

  So one of our, one of our go to lines when somebody's giving you an unacceptable offer or something you can't deal with or something very difficult for you.

• 3:09Chris Voss?

  I used to say to, you know, to kidnappers, how are we supposed to pay you if we don't know the hostages alive? They want to get paid, I got to know the hostages alive. How are we supposed to pay you if we don't know you're going to let them go? They want to get paid, I want to get the hostage out. I'm making my goals their sequence. So how am I supposed to do that as some form of how? Is a great leveling the playing field question when someone's coming at you hard.

• 3:35Lewis Howes?

  So what happened with Kevin?

• 3:36Chris Voss?

  Kevin O'Leary did classic, all right, so this is my offer, take it or leave it, no discussion. Yes or no, you got to answer me right away. This is what I want, can't talk to anybody else. And the guy looks at him and says, how am I supposed to do that? And then he says, how am I supposed to agree to those terms and pay you back your money? Now, O'Leary, initially this started with O'Leary basically saying like, yes or no, or get out of my face.

• 4:04Lewis Howes?

  You got five seconds, make a decision, I'm out.

• 4:06Chris Voss?

  Or I'm out. Instead, they hit him with a couple of how questions and then there's a sequencing. O'Leary wants his money back. So how am I supposed to do that and protect your investment? And so suddenly now, all of a sudden, now he's not angry, but now he's not, he's back on his heels.

• 4:22Lewis Howes?

  He's trying to think.

• 4:23Chris Voss?

  He's thinking. And at that point in time, since they've created so much space in a negotiation, now Barbara Corcoran jumps in.

• 4:31Lewis Howes?

  Right, now there's some time.

• 4:32Chris Voss?

  That's some people.

• 4:34Lewis Howes?

  10 second window, there's a, yeah.

• 4:35Chris Voss?

  And a better deal is opening. And Kevin looks at her and says, hey, are you in, are you out? You know, I thought you were out. And, and so then, but now he's engaged in a full on negotiation, it's back and forth exchange. And these guys are still hitting him with, like, how are we supposed to protect your investment and give you those kinds of terms? And then finally, they, they get a great deal teased out that O'Leary is still not ready to jump on. And Barbara says, you know what, I'll take that deal. And she jumps in and she gets it.

• 5:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 5:03Chris Voss?

  So great negotiation is about succeeding with people and creating the opportunity for good things to happen. Because until they did that, Barbara Corcoran was out. But they created some space, they asked some legitimate questions. And suddenly Barbara says, there's a great deal in front of me, I'm going to jump back in.

• 5:21Lewis Howes?

  Right. What would you say is the most important word to use in any negotiation?

• 5:28Chris Voss?

  Well, um, not use, but come to grips with, no. The word no.

• 5:37Chris Voss?

  I know it's a great word to hear.

• 5:41Lewis Howes?

  If you're trying to make the negotiation?

• 5:43Chris Voss?

  When I'm trying to make the negotiation. Because empathy is about what it is for the other side, not what it is for you. It's not about you. So when you say no, you feel safe.

• 5:56Lewis Howes?

  I'm protecting myself, I'm guarding my

• 5:59Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 5:59Lewis Howes?

  deal or whatever the side of that I have, I'm, I'm not giving in to something I don't want.

• 6:04Chris Voss?

  Right. And as soon as you do that, you're more willing to explore options.

• 6:09Lewis Howes?

  Okay, no for this, but maybe what about this, this, or this?

• 6:12Chris Voss?

  Right, right. Or I may say, look, does this, does this look like a bad idea? And you might say, no, it doesn't look like a bad idea, but I need these things. Would you, having feel safe, well, now tell me honestly, because you don't feel obligated. If I'd have said, does this look like a good deal to you? You might say, yes, it looks like a good deal, but, the erasing word, I need these things. But you're afraid if you said, had said yes in the first place, you're now on the hook. So you're not going to be as honest with me about those things. So coming to grips with what yes and no really means is one of the major first turning points in anybody's negotiation journey as a great negotiator.

• 6:54Lewis Howes?

  Say that one more time?

• 6:56Chris Voss?

  Coming to grips with what yes and no really mean is the first major turning point in anybody's negotiation journey. Because you think yes is success and it's not. And you think no is failure and it's not.

• 7:14Lewis Howes?

  Why is yes not a success?

• 7:15Chris Voss?

  Yes, at best is aspiration only. You know, the phrase, hope is not a strategy. Yes, is hope alone. Hope is inadequate alone. And at best, it's an aspiration. Most commonly, it's counterfeit.

• 7:31Lewis Howes?

  It's fake.

• 7:32Chris Voss?

  It's a fake yes.

• 7:33Lewis Howes?

  So if someone says, hey, I want to do this deal with you. And you say, yeah, I'm open to that, or yeah, that works for me. You're saying it's not 100% until the deal terms are laid out over paper and people are going back and forth, or what do you mean?

• 7:47Chris Voss?

  Well, about 80% of the time, I want to know what your deal terms are so I can shop them.

• 7:54Chris Voss?

  And if I've said yes, you're going to lay those terms out to me. And now I'm free to shop them and start playing you off somebody else.

• 8:02Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 8:04Chris Voss?

  And that is such a problem in the business world, recognized. And a lot of salespeople are now taught to say, are we the vendor of choice? Well, you're, you're going for yes there. Now, if you're being played, nobody's ever, if they're playing you, they're not going to tell you the truth.

• 8:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, they say, yeah.

• 8:21Chris Voss?

  They're not going to say, well, thank God you asked, because as a matter of fact, you're not. We're just pumping you for information.

• 8:26Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:27Chris Voss?

  We want free consulting.

• 8:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:29Chris Voss?

  Like, nobody's ever going to say that. If they were already lying to you, they're going to lie to you about that question too. So this whole, the seduction of yes, because we love to hear it. Like, yes, the heavens part, the angels sing, the sun shines.

• 8:46Chris Voss?

  And that is such a seduction that people exploit us regularly by telling us yes.

• 8:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's interesting. So when you hear a no, or when someone hears a no, what is the first thing they should think in a negotiation?

• 9:00Chris Voss?

  Well, it depends upon how the no came up. Like, you know, and never split the difference, we point out, no could be not yet. Or no is no to these circumstances, which doesn't eliminate other circumstances.

• 9:18Chris Voss?

  Like, no could be, I need time to think. Like, no is almost never rejection. If, if it's come up unexpectedly, it's really, it's a signal that there's another path. Versus, ah, I got to quit and go home. No is failure, I'm horrified with no. And that ain't, that ain't the case. So we intentionally try to get it all the time. Like, if, getting someone to say no as a result of a calibrated question is so powerful.

• 9:52Lewis Howes?

  You intentionally try to get people to say no.

• 9:53Chris Voss?

  Intentionally try to get people to say no, that that may be the only thing that some people learn. Because I, I get emails on LinkedIn all the time, like, hey, I, I use the phrase, have you given up on this project? And I, my close rate is so exceeding everybody else that I, on my company, that I should come work for you and teach this. And my thought is like, I'm, I'm glad you're making a lot more money right now, but you're just scratching the surface. And you think, because you're comparing yourself to your peers who are in the middle of the bell curve, that if you just moved up the bell curve one notch, you now see all these people way behind you. You don't have any idea how much more upside you have.

• 10:37Lewis Howes?

  Right. Wow. What is the, when you hear a no, what do you think next in a, in a negotiation?

• 10:47Chris Voss?

  Well, I always hear those that I want to hear.

• 10:49Lewis Howes?

  You hear the, you set it up?

• 10:50Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 10:50Lewis Howes?

  So is it asking for something so extreme first?

• 10:54Chris Voss?

  Well, for example, um, there's a lot of stuff, let's say about the particular deal that I know you don't know.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 11:02Chris Voss?

  I mean, Ronald Reagan says, if you're explaining, you're losing. But I got to give you some information at some point in time, which evident is explanation. So I'll say something like, all right, here's what I think you're up against.

• 11:17Chris Voss?

  Here's what I think the challenges are that you face. Are you against me sharing some ideas with you?

• 11:23Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 11:24Chris Voss?

  Right. Now, I've just teed up, you've just, you've got no problem with that. Now, I can't, if I got fifteen things I gotta share with you, I probably only get away with three. Because it's, each one is a lot, is good information, you gotta absorb it, I gotta let you think about it. We gotta go in small doses. But I will always, we are CDA, call to action, call to next step. However, we close out, we always close out with a no. You know, me, the Black Swan team, everybody that we coach, always close out. Are you against doing this? Are you against me sharing some ideas? Does this look stupid to you? Is this a ridiculous idea? Like, you can turn any one of your yes questions into a no question, which is ten times more valuable.

• 12:08Lewis Howes?

  Really? Because I've heard in the past from people that says, you know, you wanna get people saying yes, yes, yes, leading into the close, to a sale, to whatever, right? It's like getting them saying yes.

• 12:21Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 12:21Lewis Howes?

  But I'm hearing you say, get them to say no.

• 12:24Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 12:25Lewis Howes?

  Why is no more powerful than yes?

• 12:27Chris Voss?

  I think that, that, that you're, what you're referring to is called the yes momentum. And I think that has been so overused. And not only overused, but it's also been, everybody's been, they've been flimflam, they've been bamboozled. You know, they've been conned by that two or three times. They're yes battered. And then your problem is...

• 12:49Lewis Howes?

  They feel like it's a trick or something, or some strategy.

• 12:52Chris Voss?

  You're not a trickster, but you're engaging in the same methodology that the trickster used.

• 12:58Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 12:59Chris Voss?

  You know, the African phrase, when you're bitten by a snake, you're afraid of ropes.

• 13:04Chris Voss?

  There are a lot of really legitimate people that are not trying to, to flimflam somebody, but the flimflam artists use that on them. You know, the, the timeshare industry has a, has a very bad reputation. And some of the timeshares are, are clearly very valuable, because I know people that have them and love them.

• 13:22Chris Voss?

  Simultaneously, there are a lot of people out there that are hustling, are conning people, and there's a whole industry of, that we've coached some of these people and getting people out of timeshares. Because they got them on the yes momentum. Now, they got a timeshare that's gonna bankrupt them.

• 13:38Chris Voss?

  And they don't remember exactly how that happened. But it was probably this yes momentum. So, they weren't conscious of it, but as soon as they hear it again, even from a close trusted friend, they got burned and, and they, they get an instinctively negative reaction to the yes momentum.

• 13:56Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So, what's the no, is it no momentum? What's the, what's, like, what is this process of getting the no?

• 14:04Chris Voss?

  Well, you, you know, you're getting a no and you're getting, you're getting the information. You know, no typically triggers, um, implementation, next steps.

• 14:14Lewis Howes?

  Got it. But a no is really a yes. It sounds like, would you be against me sharing some interesting ideas for you? No, I'm not against it.

• 14:22Chris Voss?

  Exactly.

• 14:23Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool. Here's the next step.

• 14:24Chris Voss?

  And, and probably if I'd have said, are you against me sharing some interesting ideas for you? Your more likely answer is, no, I'm not against it, but I only got fifteen minutes.

• 14:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:34Chris Voss?

  Awesome. If I stick to the fifteen minutes or less, I got your undivided attention. If I go over fifteen, you're gonna start to get anxious, because you're worried about your clock.

• 14:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:45Chris Voss?

  And, you know, that, that's a secondary thing, like, um, if we set up an appointment, is it a ridiculous idea for me to take up thirteen minutes of your time?

• 14:54Lewis Howes?

  Right, not, not ten, not five, but something in between.

• 14:57Chris Voss?

  Right. Now, I know I want nine minutes. I got it, I got it timed out. You know, I, I, I call this BDA lines. They're always showing up late.

• 15:08Chris Voss?

  They're not getting killed for that anymore. Are they more efficient? No, they just changed the time, they said they were gonna show up. You know, you, you, I'm sitting on a tarmac in LAX. Plane can't get, can't get to the gate. We're there twenty minutes early. The airline is, hey, we're here twenty minutes early, we promised an on-time arrival, we're here twenty minutes early. They won't let us get to the gate. And you're sitting there thinking like, this airport is so stupid. This plane is big, they saw it coming, they got radar, we're not surprised. Well, point of fact, the, the airport said, you guys showed, said you were showing up at three, we ain't opening up this gate till three. Now, you're sitting there on the airplane, you're not mad at the airline, you're mad at the airport. But in fact, the airline knew how long they were gonna be early.

• 15:51Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 15:52Chris Voss?

  But who gave you back time in your life? I call you on the phone, I say, Louis, I need, I need thirteen minutes. You give me fifteen, because you ain't got thirteen on your calendar. I get done at nine, and I'm like, okay, and, and you're sitting there like, holy cow. You, you just gave me back time in my day, everybody else is taking it away, now you love me. Next time I call, you're picking that phone right up.

• 16:18Lewis Howes?

  He's not gonna waste my time.

• 16:20Chris Voss?

  Exactly.

• 16:21Lewis Howes?

  So, I like these questions to, to get, would you be against me doing this? Would, are you, uh, what's another way you could say a no question?

• 16:30Chris Voss?

  It's usually like, is it a ridiculous idea, are you against? Our phone calls start with, is now a bad time to talk? Instead of, have you got a few minutes?

• 16:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:40Chris Voss?

  Because, you know, we're, people feel safe when they say no.

• 16:44Lewis Howes?

  They feel safe. Why is that?

• 16:47Chris Voss?

  Yeah, that's, you know, I get, I'm, probably because we get flimflammed over yes. And we've been flimflammed so many times that no gives an automatic feeling of protection. You know, and I, I talked about this, because I told you I wanna talk about how you interviewed some of your other interviews.

• 17:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:05Chris Voss?

  Andrew Huberman.

• 17:06Lewis Howes?

  Yes, he's great.

• 17:08Chris Voss?

  Like, I've become acquainted with Andrew, fascinating dude. Like, his first interview of him, I heard on With You. And I'm like, this is a great interview. I gotta listen to everything this guy says, fascinating. And so then I catch him on another podcast. And I'm, I'm falling asleep, I'm like, oh, Jesus. Andrew was awesome when he was on Louis, now, I can't, I, I, this is a cure for insomnia, what's going on? And I actually went back and I compared the interviewing styles.

• 17:40Lewis Howes?

  Really? Interesting.

• 17:43Chris Voss?

  And there's a very difficult skill in the Black Swan method also. And you were really good at, you were really good at several. But you paraphrase really well. And paraphrasing is, is, uh, sounds simple, dictionary definition. But it keeps the conversation going in more digestible bites. And I went back and I listened to your interview of Huberman several times before I realized, when you interviewed, you were genuinely connecting and interested in him, and you paraphrase frequently.

• 18:22Lewis Howes?

  Because it's very complex ideas, I'm like, okay, well, let me simplify this, so I can understand and other people can understand.

• 18:28Chris Voss?

  That's exactly right. And it also helps you stay focused. You're a much better listener if you're focused on doing that. Now, the other dude that's interviewing Andrew, he's trying to show Andrew how smart he is. So, is, you know, is, he, he wanted to use all the scientific vernacular, which Andrew likes to speak in very plain terms. And he wanted to show how smart he was. And then consequently, I think Andrew was having trouble keeping up with the questions, because they were so complicated. The interviewer was trying to show

• 19:01Lewis Howes?

  Show off.

• 19:02Chris Voss?

  Yeah. For the audience, I'm as smart as Andrew Huberman. You don't bother with that at all. And you, you were genuinely interested, and you're very conscious of your audience, so, well, your audience is sort of losing track and falling asleep, like, it's okay.

• 19:16Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. If I'm falling asleep, then I need to, you know, reset the interview, I need to paraphrase it, so I can stay focused and present too.

• 19:27Lewis Howes?

  Something I learned early on, thanks for the compliment, I appreciate it. And I think it, it stemmed from an insecurity and a lack of confidence early in my twenties, once I was kind of getting into the...

• 19:39Chris Voss?

  So, you're saying you, you're a flawed human being?

• 19:41Lewis Howes?

  Very flawed human being, yes. After I got done playing arena football and lost my identity, I was like, what am I gonna do with the rest of my life? Like, this was my whole goal, was play professional football. Now, I got injured, I can't play anymore, what do I do? Do I really have skills? Am I talented? Is anyone gonna hire me? I didn't know.

• 20:00Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 20:01Lewis Howes?

  And I started going to these networking events in Columbus, Ohio, to try to meet people, kind of these business networking events. And I, I remember I was like, wow, the, everyone's, you know, five, ten, twenty years older than me. They're all wearing suits, I, you know, I have one sport jacket and a t-shirt, right?

• 20:19Chris Voss?

  Everything about this environment is designed to make you feel inadequate.

• 20:22Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, everything. And, and I didn't have a job and all these different things. And I was like, okay, what value can I bring to this networking event? Right? I'm not as smart or talented or as successful as these professionals. And I remember being very intimidated, and I said, you know what, I'm just gonna go here and have fun and ask interesting questions and listen. And I'm not gonna try to act like...

• 20:42Chris Voss?

  Actually listen.

• 20:43Lewis Howes?

  I'm just gonna listen to whoever's in front of me, I'm not gonna look around and see who else is here, who's more powerful, who's more interesting, uh, who's coming in the door, I'm just gonna stare into someone's eyes, not in a creepy way, but I'm gonna connect.

• 20:55Chris Voss?

  Yeah, connect.

• 20:56Lewis Howes?

  And really ask interesting, genuine questions and shut my mouth. And I started doing this, this first night, and people, and I did it with like a, a joyful energy, right? Like a childlike curiosity, I was just like, really curious, I was like, wow. And I would, and I would do a follow-up question, tell me more about that, tell me more, that's interesting, how did this happen with this? And at the end of the night...

• 21:20Lewis Howes?

  People came up to me like, "You gotta meet Louis. He's such an interesting guy. He's so cool. He's so, he's so interesting." But they didn't know anything about me. I never shared anything about me. I was so curious about them. And I realized right then, I was like, "Oh, to be interesting, you have to be interested in other people."

• 21:36Chris Voss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:36Lewis Howes?

  And you can, you can build incredible relationships by showing how much you care, how interested you are in people, and make it about them as opposed to making it about you.

• 21:44Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 21:45Lewis Howes?

  And that was essentially what I started doing. I said, "Okay, I'm just gonna use this insecurity of not feeling like I'm smart enough. Lean into it. Use the things I am good at, which is curiosity, joy, and passionate, and playful, and you know, I'll joke with people. And just try to make people feel connected and feel like their story is really inspiring, which it is to me." And that is kind of what I did with the podcast. It's just like, "Okay, you're way smarter than me, right? You've got these skills, this experience that I don't have. Let me be fascinated." Now, I've interrupted you and I'm talking right now, but in general, it's like, "Well, tell me more. That's interesting." Well, how do I, how can I use this in my life, you know?

• 22:24Chris Voss?

  Yeah, and you threw out inadvertently like a couple of different like superpowers. Um, curiosity. Like, uh, you know, we got a block of instruction we teach called caviar. The scene caviar is curiosity. It's about getting yourself in the right headspace. And Nassim Nicholas Teller wrote a book, Anti-Fragile. He says curiosity is an anti-fragile characteristic. And curiosity is a highly positive frame of mind. Um, I cite this guy's TED Talk so many times. The Happiness Advantage, Shawn Acker.

• 22:55Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 22:56Chris Voss?

  He says you're 31% smarter and a positive frame of mind. Curiosity is highly positive. There's, everybody, all these different places talk about curiosity as an avenue to success for a variety of reasons. You pick up more, you're interested, you pay attention. The other person feels very connected with.

• 23:12Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 23:13Chris Voss?

  When you're genuinely curious. Playful. Another highly positive frame of mind. Kotler talks about flow. Steven Kotler. Says flow is highly positive, even playful. Pre-adolescents walk around essentially in borderline flow all the time. They're playful.

• 23:33Lewis Howes?

  Jumping around, trying, you know, climbing on people, you're just singing, dancing, you're just playing.

• 23:39Chris Voss?

  Yeah, yeah. And so you take that attitude into a business environment, and suddenly everybody else, everybody there is going like, "Hey, this kid over here with this old sport coat and his tennis shoes is the most interesting character here. Come over and meet this guy." Anybody could do that.

• 23:57Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 23:58Chris Voss?

  If they, uh, yeah, if they go like, "All right, so I'm an idiot, and I don't have any credentials, and I don't know anything, and I'm unemployable because I have no skills. Let me go out and see what happens." I mean, how are you gonna go down from there?

• 24:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you can't.

• 24:11Chris Voss?

  How are you gonna embarrass yourself? You're gonna be like, "All right, so I am a goofball. Let me go in here and I'll be a goofball. I'll be happy."

• 24:18Lewis Howes?

  And, and figure a way to bring a value in your unique way. I'm curious, what is the most frequent question word that you use? Who, what, when, where, why?

• 24:28Chris Voss?

  Ah, all right. All right, so we only use questions to create, calibrate thinking in the other person's brain. To start with. Like, I'm not gonna ask you a question and get information. I'm gonna ask you a question to put a thought in your head. For example, when I'm working on a free upgrade to a suite in a hotel, which I work on every time, I don't get every time.

• 24:57Lewis Howes?

  What's your success rate? What's your success rate?

• 25:00Chris Voss?

  Success rate is probably in excess of 90%.

• 25:03Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 25:04Chris Voss?

  Which is also gonna be, it's gonna be impacted by inventory.

• 25:09Lewis Howes?

  Right. If there's no inventory, and there's really no inventory, it's...

• 25:12Chris Voss?

  They can't give you a suite they don't have.

• 25:14Lewis Howes?

  But maybe they can give you something else.

• 25:16Chris Voss?

  Or, you know, they're gonna look at their inventory. The first thing, do they have any suites? The second, how many nights in a row do I want a suite? Like, if I'm rolling in there, and I'm almost always late because I'm traveling.

• 25:27Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 25:28Chris Voss?

  If they only got one suite, I'm staying one night, and it's after 6:00. They could give me that one suite. They can use up their inventory because I'm out in the morning. And at 6:00 at night, they're, they're willing to gamble that nobody's coming in and taking it. If I'm there for three nights, I'm not getting that suite. If that's the only one they have, because they gotta leave it open. So, but, I gotta ask in a way that doesn't limit me to the suite.

• 25:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:57Chris Voss?

  Because I want them, I want them to feel good about the interaction, so throw other stuff on the table. Like, I'm in a, I'm in a hotel in, uh, in Dallas, probably about a year ago. I didn't think about it until I walked in the door. Um, parking lot's full of Range Rovers. I walk inside, there are no shortage of women that are dressed to the nines. Almost all of them are company. But I mean, dressed to impress. I get up to the counter, and I do the suite thing, and the guy's like, "Yeah, we got a wedding party here." Range Rovers, expensive. Expensive outfits. Are they out of sweets? More than likely.

• 26:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:42Chris Voss?

  So, I do the pitch. He's like, "Man, you know, we got a wedding party here. They're taking all the sweets." So I ask him the one with the question. "Is it a ridiculous idea for you to make it up to me at the bar?" Now, think about the absurdity of that question.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:55Chris Voss?

  Like, I'm asking, I'm asking for something for free that I never should have had in the first place, and if you don't give it to me, now you gotta make it up to me?

• 27:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. That's good. I like that.

• 27:06Chris Voss?

  That's hysterical.

• 27:07Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 27:07Chris Voss?

  And so, a guy goes, "Oh, as a matter of fact..." And he comes around the counter, and he gives me like five, six free drink tickets at the bar. And I'm like, you know, I gotta leave myself in a position to get other stuff.

• 27:18Lewis Howes?

  What's the go-to approach for anyone trying to get an upgrade?

• 27:22Chris Voss?

  Well, so first of all...

• 27:23Lewis Howes?

  For a car upgrade, uh, hotel upgrade?

• 27:26Chris Voss?

  You gotta understand, since it's not about you, how do they see it? And so, and then, like, it's an emotional journey. And the, and the journey is how it ends, not how it begins. You know, the last impression is the last impression. I gotta take them to this great place. It's gonna be three steps.

• 27:43Lewis Howes?

  Give it to me.

• 27:45Chris Voss?

  Now, in a, in a, in a hotel, I'm gonna be like, "Look, man, I'm getting ready to ruin your whole day."

• 27:52Lewis Howes?

  That's the first thing you say?

• 27:53Chris Voss?

  Well, you, you gotta give them your ID.

• 27:55Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right. Credit card, ID?

• 27:58Chris Voss?

  They gotta find your reservation.

• 27:59Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:00Chris Voss?

  Because they're gonna be distracted. They're gonna be multitasked.

• 28:02Lewis Howes?

  So they say, "Hey, you checking in? Yeah, I'm checking in."

• 28:04Chris Voss?

  They find a reservation. If you, if you got a points number, you give them the points number. You gotta wait for the moment, and you go like, "I'm getting ready to ruin your day." Now, and you gotta stop, and you gotta wait till they tell you to go on. Now, from a hotel, from the hotel's perspective, like, they have seen every horrible thing you could imagine.

• 28:23Lewis Howes?

  Oh, sure.

• 28:24Chris Voss?

  You know, do you have a goat in your bag? And you wanna do a satanic ritual sacrifice in a room?

• 28:30Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:30Chris Voss?

  Which we are never gonna be able to get that out of the walls.

• 28:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 28:32Chris Voss?

  Like, they, they've seen every horrible thing.

• 28:35Lewis Howes?

  Crazy parties, you know, animal feces, whatever it is, yeah, everything.

• 28:39Chris Voss?

  So when you say that, they immediately go to all this horrible stuff. Now, because you're gonna, you're gonna take, you're gonna take them to a better place.

• 28:46Lewis Howes?

  So you say first, "Are you ready for me to..."

• 28:48Chris Voss?

  "I'm, I'm getting ready to ruin your day."

• 28:50Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 28:51Chris Voss?

  And you let that sink in. And, and then they go, and then, so now you gotta, you start bringing them out of it. How are you gonna say, how are you gonna seem to them if you're somebody who's asking for stuff for free? You're cheap.

• 29:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 29:06Chris Voss?

  You're another cheap, entitled, self-centered traveler who's demanding. And so I'm like, "I'm sure." Again, it's not, it's not a denial. It's an admission. A prediction. "I'm sure I'm gonna seem like another self-centered, unappreciative, demanding traveler who thinks the sun rises and sets on him. Who wants something for nothing." Now, you no longer have a goat in your suitcase. No, ritual sacrifice is not involved. You want something for free.

• 29:46Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 29:47Chris Voss?

  They immediately start to feel better and relieved.

• 29:50Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 29:51Chris Voss?

  Now, you, because you asked me about questions. So now we get to the question to create a state of mind. The last obstacle is gonna be how much trouble they're gonna get into. If they give me a free suite upgrade. Now, they, there's a colleague standing there. The, I've done this while the boss was standing there. I've done this literally while the manager was standing next to listen to this whole thing. They may need to go find a manager. So, how much trouble am I gonna get you in? If I ask for a free upgrade to a suite? Because the last thing that's gonna go through their mind, that they have to reconcile before they make the move, is whether or not they're gonna get in any trouble.

• 30:36Chris Voss?

  I lay this out in one hotel in New York. And as a woman's standing next, because you're almost always gonna get it in front of somebody. This works in front of other employees, it works in front of customers. You don't gotta be in a vacuum. And the boss jumps in and says, "Because you asked nicely, let me see what I could do." She starts checking the inventory. "I wanna be there for four nights." And she says, "Look, if you can guarantee me that when you check out on Friday, you're out of here before 10:00 in the morning, I got an upgrade for you, but I got, I got late checkout problems on Friday morning. You cannot have a late checkout."

• 31:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 31:15Chris Voss?

  And I'm like, "You got it. I mean, I'll, I'll come down in my pajamas if I gotta get out of there."

• 31:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Okay, so the three steps is, "I'm getting ready to ruin your day." Some type of approach of...

• 31:30Chris Voss?

  Because what are you getting ready to do? You're getting ready to give them something negative.

• 31:33Lewis Howes?

  Yes. And the second one is acknowledging that you're coming across as another greedy, demanding customer that expects the world to open up for them and have something for free. And then, the third one is, tell me the third step again?

• 31:47Chris Voss?

  The hard question, "How much trouble am I gonna get you in? If I ask you a free upgrade to a suite?" Now, and this, like, this emotional journey, and really, the point is always leaving people better than you found them. And you know, they've been through a lot, like they wanna help you. If they would love to help you.

• 32:13Chris Voss?

  The first thing is, do you appreciate what it is for them? Like this, this poor schmuck behind the counter. Getting yelled at by everybody.

• 32:21Lewis Howes?

  Everyone.

• 32:22Chris Voss?

  You know, and, and, and everybody's going for a free upgrade. And you know, I had a friend of mine who had this really entertaining one, but the success rate was really low. You know, he's telling me, he says, you mean to tell me if the President of the United States wasn't coming in here tonight, you wouldn't have a suite? And the clerk says, of course we would. So, well, President ain't coming, give it to me.

• 32:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:42Chris Voss?

  That's really entertaining. But it left the guy resentful. Like, like one hotel I'm in, where I get the upgrade for several nights. An hour after I check into the room, my plans changed dramatically. I gotta check out the following morning. I'm not staying two nights. Now, by and large, they are completely entitled, based on the terms of the contract, to charge me for the second night.

• 33:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:09Chris Voss?

  You know, I've agreed to that.

• 33:12Chris Voss?

  I go down the next morning, and I said, look, I am so sorry. This is my problem. This is not your problem. Cause it was my problem. And if I asked to check out without getting charged, their first reaction is like, look dude, that's your problem. Bad planning on your part is not constituted an emergency for me.

• 33:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we're a business, we got stuff to do too.

• 33:35Chris Voss?

  You screwed up, why should we pay? So that's what they're gonna think. So they're gonna think it's my problem. So I've left them with a really positive residue from the day before, cause they felt great about helping me out. And I said, look, I'm sorry, it's my problem. And you know, what, what, what is it? What is it? What is it? I go, my plans have changed. I gotta check out, I gotta, I gotta go home. And they're like, oh, no worries, no worries, we'll get you out of here. What can we do? I mean, leaving, cause you, even after the deal, you always need some sort of collaboration from, from somebody. You're gonna need something. It doesn't matter what it is. And even if you don't need something, you want them to feel like they helped you, they felt good about helping you.

• 34:15Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:16Chris Voss?

  You know, the hotel staff, they realize that you could give them a great social media review as a result. Which is gonna be really good for their business. They don't wanna get clobbered over the head. They don't want, well, I'm an influencer, and if you give me a free upgrade, I will broadcast it to all of my 75 followers on Instagram. That this is a great hotel. Like, everybody thinks they're an influencer.

• 34:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:41Chris Voss?

  Well, they want that, they just don't wanna get clubbed with it. So if they liked helping you, just because something about the interaction, instead of making them feel uneasy. And it feel like they collaborated with another human being that saw their challenges. Then all that other stuff that you wanna use as primaries, now great fringe benefits, social media, commentary. I'm gonna put a video on my Instagram about how cool the room is, or how great the view is. Or, I'm in downtown Detroit, and how revitalized downtown Detroit is. And this phenomenal hotel suite that I'm in, that I'm like, I'll, I'll move in here, this is so nice. You know, so I'll put that out there.

• 35:24Chris Voss?

  But I, you know, I don't wanna, I don't want them to, I don't wanna use it against them, I don't wanna leverage it against them. I want it, I want them to feel like, I did it because I wanted to, and because it was mutual game.

• 35:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What would you say then are the, the three biggest mistakes you see a lot of people doing in negotiations?

• 35:40Chris Voss?

  Trying to, uh, club somebody with their leverage.

• 35:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Chris Voss?

  Explaining, you know, I gotta go first, you know, I gotta, I gotta set an anchor out. You know, this, anchoring on price or terms is just such, such a bad idea, and so many people love to do it.

• 35:59Lewis Howes?

  Can you give an example what that means?

• 36:02Chris Voss?

  Like if I, if I know I wanna pay a hundred dollars, and I'm saying, look, the best I could do is like 25. So you know, and you know, you go to the side on the open market, I wanna pay a hundred, and I want you to work me up there. The real problem with extreme anchoring from the beginning, I think all season negotiators have learned, it drives deals from the table. Like, I don't wanna miss out a deal, because my extreme anchor on the price or the terms at the beginning was so extreme. That you're like, I can never come close to this. When we should've made the deal. We should, we should've figured out a way to work it out. Price doesn't break deals, doesn't make deals, it breaks them.

• 36:45Chris Voss?

  You don't make a great deal based on price. You can break a deal.

• 36:49Lewis Howes?

  If you're trying to undercut extremes.

• 36:51Chris Voss?

  Somebody's gonna get mad, they're gonna walk away. You're gonna, you're gonna get a, you know, heck with you, I don't, you know, you insult me with that offer? And they just don't realize how many deals they drive away from the table.

• 37:03Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. If someone wants to get a better price on something, so that was, I think that, first off, before I ask that question, that was the second, I think, mistake. Was there another big mistake people make in negotiations? The price, extreme price anchoring, using too much leverage to try to club someone? Was there another big one?

• 37:19Chris Voss?

  What a lot of people do, that's actually taught out there a lot, um, which is really bad, is continue to ask for stuff after you made a deal. Like ask for free stuff.

• 37:29Lewis Howes?

  That's the worst, right? We made a good deal, here's a win-win, and now you're asking more and more. It's gonna make, leave a sour taste in someone's mouth.

• 37:37Chris Voss?

  Every time. And that's taught out there regularly.

• 37:41Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 37:42Chris Voss?

  It was, you know, there was a negotiation guru from the eighties, and I can't remember what he called it, but he gave the example. You go out and you get a custom-made suit.

• 37:52Chris Voss?

  And you've made the deal for the suit, and one of the guys measuring you. You say, so how many free ties do I get with that? And he said, that's a great way to get free things, free little things, after they made the deal.

• 38:06Lewis Howes?

  Throw in a pocket square, throw in a couple ties, throw on a couple legs.

• 38:09Chris Voss?

  Whatever, whatever it is, you know, what, and what that does is make the person you did it to hate you. Which, they're gonna resent it, and if they have the opportunity to fail to comply with any term, they will do that. Now unfortunately, that's taught really extensively, and it's done in business all the time. People call it scope creep, feature creep.

• 38:32Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 38:32Chris Voss?

  Like it drives every single business person crazy, cause they don't know how to deal with it. Now, the black swan method, you know, you might say, if you were good at how questions, you might say. How can I give you free ties and continue to wanna do business with you?

• 38:55Chris Voss?

  You know, how can I be a great tailor for you if you ask me for free stuff and it cuts my margin?

• 39:00Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:01Chris Voss?

  You know, make their pro, what they ask for the obstacle to what they want. Either what you want is a path, or if what they want is bad, it's the obstacle. You know, how, how can I serve the needs of your family, if you're cutting into my profit margins?

• 39:20Chris Voss?

  You know, there's, there's gotta be a way to wake somebody up to it, cause a lot of people have been taught that, they don't know any better. Like if I'd have stuck to that training that I learned from this guy back in the 1980s. I'd have thought it was okay, cause I'm getting free ties all over the place.

• 39:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:33Chris Voss?

  Like a lot of people, um, if they, if they don't know any better, how do you wake them up? So that if they only knew, they'd change. Now, there's some people that are doing it on purpose. If you do something like that to me, cause you didn't know any better, let me see if I can wake you up. If I can wake you up, awesome, we got a great long-term relationship. If I can't wake you up, I now know.

• 40:00Chris Voss?

  And I'm probably like, okay, cool, this is the last deal I make with this guy.

• 40:03Lewis Howes?

  One and done, yeah.

• 40:04Chris Voss?

  This is a one and done, I'm out. But I need to know, if, if you just did it by accident. I got a job negotiation, recently brought somebody onto my company.

• 40:15Chris Voss?

  Thought we had the deal settled.

• 40:17Lewis Howes?

  And a new employee.

• 40:18Chris Voss?

  New employee.

• 40:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:19Chris Voss?

  Cause, uh, employment contracts, like any other. And this person brings up a bunch of other stuff after we've laid out the terms, we've written the offer letter, we sent the offer letter. Offer letter doesn't get signed. Silence. Not a good sign. My director of operations, who knows no oriented questions, she's this person an email, have you given up on signing the offer letter? Immediately comes back with a bunch of, you know, not ridiculous, uh, benefits.

• 40:59Lewis Howes?

  More asks.

• 41:00Chris Voss?

  More asks, which are not on a plate, some of them are like, wow, that was interesting, I never thought of that one. Nah, we can't do that, not in a million years. This is stuff I aspire to.

• 41:11Lewis Howes?

  But not you now.

• 41:12Chris Voss?

  We can't do it now, but no, this is, I like this one, it's just not in the package now. But my director of operations is like, I never had somebody come back. And I'm like, okay. So first I gotta do is I gotta find out, did this person just not know any better? So I engaged in the conversation, and I said, alright, so however this goes, I want you to understand two things. First of all, I'm glad it came up now, as opposed to six months from now.

• 41:38Chris Voss?

  But secondly, this is a bad habit to bring stuff up after the deal has been cut. So I'm guessing you just didn't know any better and you were uncomfortable bringing it up.

• 41:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 41:50Chris Voss?

  But if you come on board first, you got to understand, we don't do this to people. And you got to learn, we work all the little stuff out before we think we have an agreement instead of going for little stuff after the agreement.

• 42:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 42:04Chris Voss?

  And this person was like, hey, you know, I didn't know. And my intention is to help build the company and I appreciate you let me know. And I understand where you're coming from.

• 42:15Lewis Howes?

  They were genuine about it.

• 42:16Chris Voss?

  They were very genuine. I needed to know that.

• 42:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:18Chris Voss?

  Like was, is, was she, was this person advised to do this?

• 42:22Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:23Chris Voss?

  Did they do it by accident? Or did they do that because this is going to be the predictor of future behavior?

• 42:29Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:30Chris Voss?

  Which now we have a real problem.

• 42:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 42:32Chris Voss?

  Because if this is a habit that you're born with, you are not going to last and you can't represent me.

• 42:38Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 42:39Chris Voss?

  Cause the people that work on my team are also my ambassadors.

• 42:42Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:43Chris Voss?

  I gotta find out what's going on it is. And I go back and we talk it through and we settle everything out. And I got a list of things to aspire to for employee benefits. Because these are great things.

• 42:57Lewis Howes?

  Sure. So to finish that up, one of the worst things you can do is ask for more and more and more and more things after the negotiation has been agreed on.

• 43:07Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 43:08Lewis Howes?

  Do that before the final agreement is what I'm hearing you say.

• 43:11Chris Voss?

  Yep.

• 43:11Lewis Howes?

  Yes. If someone's looking to buy.

• 43:13Chris Voss?

  Nice paraphrase by the way.

• 43:15Lewis Howes?

  You want to make sure I capture that. If someone is looking to buy, wanting to buy something, acquire something, whether they're buying a business, a car, a house, um, some potential expensive item, a jewelry, something of, of more value than a thousand dollars. And they, they might be able to negotiate a lower price. You mentioned the extreme price anchoring, how that is a mistake, right? There's a house for a million dollars. I'll give you 200 grand for it, right?

• 43:47Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 43:47Lewis Howes?

  That's, that's, but you want to get a better deal.

• 43:49Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 43:50Lewis Howes?

  Maybe it's a Rolex, maybe it's a car, maybe it's a house, maybe you want to acquire a business, whatever it is. Something of higher value, a ring, an engagement ring, you're going to marry someone.

• 43:59Chris Voss?

  Right, right, right. Let them make their profit off somebody else.

• 44:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What should be the lower percentage on a, a higher item of value? How, what should the initial offer be? You want to get a better deal. So you don't want to pay a million dollars for a home, but you really want the home. You don't want to pay 3,000 for the diamond ring, the engagement ring, but you really want that ring.

• 44:23Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 44:24Lewis Howes?

  How low of a percentage should you go to anchor? In order for you to feel like, oh, I got a great deal and I got the thing I wanted. And they didn't get screwed over. You know what I mean?

• 44:37Chris Voss?

  Well, depending upon the context, I mean, like 30, 30% is a good rule of thumb.

• 44:41Lewis Howes?

  To start out.

• 44:42Chris Voss?

  Well, for, for a target, like if you, if you, and, and very, very context driven.

• 44:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 44:47Chris Voss?

  Like, for example, I'm in Macy's one time and um, figuring out this jacket. Girl I'm with really likes it. She searches this thing extensively. She finds like a thread out of place.

• 44:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 44:59Chris Voss?

  And she goes like, watch me get 10% off on this jacket. And I'm like.

• 45:04Lewis Howes?

  Thread out of place.

• 45:07Chris Voss?

  I can get 30% by being nice.

• 45:09Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 45:10Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 45:12Lewis Howes?

  Tell me more.

• 45:13Chris Voss?

  Well, I, like in, in every transaction, you know, I look at it as an, there's an aggravation tax. Now, the person that you're dealing with is already built in the aggravation tax because of all the aggravating people that have come through the door ahead of them. So there's an aggravation penalty, there's an annoyance tax, there's an aggravation tax that's already there on a price. Now, if you're not aggravating, you don't need to pay the aggravation tax.

• 45:38Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 45:38Chris Voss?

  Let somebody else pay that aggravation tax.

• 45:41Lewis Howes?

  And you benefit from them actually paying that, that tax.

• 45:44Chris Voss?

  Yeah, let's, let's somebody else pay it. If I'm not aggravating, why should I pay the aggravating tax? So, you know, this young lady, she'd gotten 10% off on a regular basis. I will be demanding, 10, 10% is the annoyance tax, when there's another 20% to be gained.

• 46:03Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, interesting.

• 46:04Chris Voss?

  Like you don't, so many people don't realize how much money they're leaving on the table.

• 46:09Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 46:10Chris Voss?

  Like massive amounts of money. On, on any given, the difference between 10% off and 30% off.

• 46:17Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:18Chris Voss?

  Like they got a way to give you a better deal.

• 46:22Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:22Chris Voss?

  If they feel like it.

• 46:25Lewis Howes?

  So how do you get them to feel like it?

• 46:26Chris Voss?

  Well, so, yeah, great. There you go. Exactly. Again, the approach, very similar to the hotel thing. You know, there's, there's, there's a strategy where we sort of bundle the skills in a black swan method. We call it the accusations audit.

• 46:39Lewis Howes?

  The accusations audit.

• 46:41Chris Voss?

  Accusations audit. Let me do an audit of all the names you would call me. If I'm going to do this.

• 46:52Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh. You say this?

• 46:54Chris Voss?

  You say it to yourself.

• 46:55Lewis Howes?

  Okay, not to the.

• 46:56Chris Voss?

  Cause I need to come up with a list.

• 46:57Lewis Howes?

  Ah.

• 46:58Chris Voss?

  So again, it's like, look, you get annoying people coming through here all day long, every day, want something for nothing. I'm going to look like just like another one of these annoying jerks. It's really demanding and rub you the wrong way. And don't appreciate how hard it is for you to work in this jewelry store, this car dealership, this wherever you are. You are knocking yourself out, a tough sales job.

• 47:21Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:22Chris Voss?

  You're trying to feed your family and people are coming here trying to take food out of your mouth. Cause how do they see it?

• 47:27Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:28Chris Voss?

  You know, it's not about you. And it's not about, it's really not sympathy. You know, the difference between sympathy and empathy. You know, I feel your pain.

• 47:37Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 47:37Chris Voss?

  Like I've been there too. You know, like I'm a regular guy like you.

• 47:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:41Chris Voss?

  Like, don't give me that regular guy stuff. So, but you, you look at people like me, who want something for nothing, who come walking in all the time. You know, you look at us as, as wanting discounts and you know, and you're trying to feed your family. Now suddenly this person is like, oh, wow.

• 48:00Lewis Howes?

  They get it.

• 48:00Chris Voss?

  This is not the other annoying jerk that came in here. Now, now they're starting to open up. And then, you know, you talked before about being playful. Being playful about this can be a really big deal.

• 48:11Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now let's get back to the conversation. I, I've gotten so many things for free for being playful or upgrades or discounts just by, let me just say a friendly joke or just something funny.

• 48:47Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 48:47Lewis Howes?

  You know, let me just be goofy and dance in front of them and be like, what is this guy doing, you know?

• 48:51Chris Voss?

  Yeah. You've just got, you don't got to pay the aggravation tax.

• 48:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:56Chris Voss?

  And then plus, see Sean says you're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. Not only have you put the person in a better mood, you now got them thinking about options.

• 49:06Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 49:07Chris Voss?

  What can they do? What, you know, how can they help you? What can they get away with? How can they shortcut the TSA line? How can they, um, what's the code for the employee discount? Like I, you know, in this, the same place where I'm, where I'm trying to get this 30% or so off. And I'm joking around with this guy.

• 49:24Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 49:25Chris Voss?

  You know, and, and one of the things, get them to see as a human being, I'm like, well, I'm Chris. Is there a Chris discount? What kind of Chris discount is it? And they laugh at that. And so, and I'm still not getting enough of a discount and finally I go like, look. Give me the employee discount.

• 49:41Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 49:41Chris Voss?

  And I've been joking around and I smile when I say this. This guy goes like, if I give you the employee discount, I gotta pay for this thing myself. And I go, I'll pay it back. And I'm laughing and he laughs. And so he looks at the machine and I says, wait, right here. And he walks around and I see him and I walks up to a person and I proceed to be the manager. And he's whispering in the manager's ear and I see this manager standing there going like, no, no.

• 50:04Lewis Howes?

  No, really?

• 50:06Chris Voss?

  No. And he comes walking back and another employee intercepts him, whispers in his ear. And I see his eyes light up and he walks over and he plugs in a discount for me and we get the 30% off.

• 50:18Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 50:18Chris Voss?

  But I was joking with him. I was showing I knew what it looked like from his perspective. I'm getting myself out of this aggravation tax thing.

• 50:28Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:29Chris Voss?

  You know, let somebody else pay the demanding, aggressive, annoying.

• 50:37Chris Voss?

  Tax.

• 50:38Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:39Chris Voss?

  You go in there and you brighten somebody else's day up.

• 50:45Chris Voss?

  You leave the world a better place. You get some practice in.

• 50:49Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:50Chris Voss?

  Cause you want that confidence for the big negotiation.

• 50:53Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 50:54Chris Voss?

  And all these things work for you and you are, you end up feeling better about the day yourself.

• 50:59Lewis Howes?

  Yes, you had a fun interaction. And you got a discount.

• 51:02Chris Voss?

  Exactly.

• 51:02Lewis Howes?

  Do you practice every day? Any, on any trends, I mean, any financial transaction, are you practicing? Even if it's a cup of coffee, if it's a, the gas station, if it's a hotel, it's a plane. Any, are you always practicing?

• 51:15Chris Voss?

  It's a perishable skill. And me and everybody on my team, if we let ourselves get out of practice, we get rusty.

• 51:22Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 51:23Chris Voss?

  I'm really used to my no oriented questions. That's pretty much all I ask.

• 51:27Lewis Howes?

  What questions?

• 51:28Chris Voss?

  Uh, no oriented, where I'm trying to get you to say no.

• 51:31Lewis Howes?

  That's what you're doing.

• 51:32Chris Voss?

  Ridiculous idea.

• 51:33Lewis Howes?

  You're pricing that constantly.

• 51:34Chris Voss?

  I keep that, I keep that teed up constantly.

• 51:36Lewis Howes?

  Is it a ridiculous idea is kind of your go to?

• 51:38Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 51:39Lewis Howes?

  Is it a ridiculous idea for me to get a, the employee discount today?

• 51:42Chris Voss?

  Yeah. And so depending upon my daily interactions, I get so caught up in my world, then I don't get my practice in.

• 51:51Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 51:52Chris Voss?

  And so, like when we started traveling and right after the pandemic, I'm getting ready to go into a hotel. I haven't done a hotel upgrade in a while. And I almost talked myself out of it.

• 52:03Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 52:04Chris Voss?

  I am, I'm, oh, this, you know, a, a, a, me deal is kicking in. It's not gonna work.

• 52:09Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna embarrass myself.

• 52:10Chris Voss?

  I'm tired. I can, I can see this guy turning me down. I mean, I literally stand outside the hotel and I go, all right, all right, you can do this, you can do this. Come on, you can do it, you can do it. I, I gotta sack myself up because I'm out of practice.

• 52:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, but you're the guy.

• 52:26Chris Voss?

  That's right. Everybody, it's perishable.

• 52:28Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 52:29Chris Voss?

  For everybody. It ain't, it is not riding a bike.

• 52:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 52:33Chris Voss?

  And then you also gotta be willing, like, if it works nine times out of 10, sometimes you don't get anything.

• 52:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 52:39Chris Voss?

  Uh, hotel was in recently, you know, my read of the guy is you run across deceptive people that are not there to help you, that are not gonna give you anything. And through the course of the interaction, I get several very strong reads that this person was that minority that we're all afraid of is the majority. They're minority and they're there.

• 53:06Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:07Chris Voss?

  And so that interaction was, all right, so my read is this, this, and this. Now I'm smarter. I see this guy coming farther away. Like Conor McGregor, you know, I win or I learn.

• 53:19Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 53:20Chris Voss?

  You know, you win or you learn.

• 53:21Lewis Howes?

  Now, I'm curious, when you go into a store, a hotel, a, you know, airport, is it, and there's multiple options of people to talk to, who you would buy from or get upgraded from. You know, there's two people at the counter, there's three people at the store. Are you assessing first who I should approach based on body language, based on if they smile, if they're, you know, in a more positive state? Or is it depending on male, female? Is it, are you, do you have a success rate based on, is it just more an intuitive feeling that who you walk up to?

• 53:55Chris Voss?

  I, you know, I hadn't thought about that before. What I'm really more worried about is what kind of vibe I'm putting off. Like I, I don't have a lot of control over who I'm gonna get.

• 54:06Chris Voss?

  In point of fact, they're reading me before I start reading them. Cause you know, they got, they got a revolving door, they're picking up this energy. I think there's actual energy there. It's one of the things I bounced off of Andrew Huberman. You know, is the, is the energy actually there?

• 54:23Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 54:24Chris Voss?

  And he's like, the data doesn't support it. I suspect it's possible.

• 54:29Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 54:29Chris Voss?

  And he's a very data driven guy.

• 54:31Lewis Howes?

  Very.

• 54:31Chris Voss?

  He's solid, solid.

• 54:32Lewis Howes?

  Science.

• 54:33Chris Voss?

  Solid science, peer reviewed journals.

• 54:35Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 54:36Chris Voss?

  He's like, the data ain't there yet, but I think it exists. That's Chris Voss saying it, not Andrew Huberman. Andrew didn't say that. He didn't say, I think it exists. Chris Voss says, I think it exists. These people behind the counter, they're picking up on my vibe. So what I gotta do, instead of sitting there like, I want this guy, I want this guy, I want this guy. I might be putting off a bad vibe. I need to put off a relaxed vibe.

• 55:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, just go walk it right out.

• 55:02Chris Voss?

  I'm not in any hurry. Like I'm, I'm cool. If I'm looking at them, I gotta make sure I'm looking at them and my inner voice is saying like, take your time. I know you guys are busy.

• 55:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 55:13Chris Voss?

  I can't look at them like, do your job. I'm standing here, I'm a customer, you should be waiting. They're gonna pick up on that if that's my inner voice.

• 55:18Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:19Chris Voss?

  So I gotta get my inner voice in a place where I'm giving off a positive vibe.

• 55:24Lewis Howes?

  Relaxed, positive.

• 55:26Chris Voss?

  And then, then I'm gonna roll up and I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do a read on the person in a moment.

• 55:31Chris Voss?

  You know, if they look like they're having a bad day, I'm gonna say, tough day. Um, I'm, I'm hitting the reads on the TSA people all the time.

• 55:39Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 55:41Chris Voss?

  For practice. I do, I do a misread on a TSA guy. Don't remember what airport I was in. I ended up in an unexpected negotiation on the phone 15 minutes later. Because of the misread, I looked at this TSA guy and he just looked kind of blank. And I said, tough day? And he kind of went, hmm. And then I went, just another day, right? He goes, yeah, yeah, just another day. But that little read is like stretching before going in the game.

• 56:11Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:12Chris Voss?

  And the conversation I had 15 minutes later, which caught me off guard, because I did the read earlier, was a really successful conversation.

• 56:24Lewis Howes?

  What was that conversation?

• 56:25Chris Voss?

  I needed a favor from somebody. And I did, I said, am I offending you if I ask you for this favor? Cause I needed him to go out of my way for me.

• 56:34Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 56:35Chris Voss?

  And I did the no oriented question and I did sort of, you know, what am I gonna do if I ask him? I offend him? I'm doing an emotional read. I throw the two of them together on the spur of the moment, which is really kind of where you wanna get.

• 56:46Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 56:47Chris Voss?

  You know, you, you play the same notes over and over and over, and suddenly you combine them in the moment.

• 56:53Lewis Howes?

  That's pretty cool.

• 56:53Chris Voss?

  And that's why I work on my no oriented questions all the time and I'll do a random cold read, the TSA guy. My favorite one, I, I, I, I'm always got a bottle of water in my bag. I forget, I forget to pour out the water. TSA New Jersey, I got a New Jersey TSA guy.

• 57:10Lewis Howes?

  They don't put up with nothing.

• 57:11Chris Voss?

  Is it, exactly. So they get the water and they're, they're taking my bag off to the side. Now they could almost walk me back out to the curb because the line is so long, they're through security. And the guy's got the bag and I realized, I don't wanna spend another 20 minutes in line, so I go, bless me Father, for I have sinned.

• 57:34Chris Voss?

  And he walks, he looks at me, he walks, he looks at me and he goes, how long since your last confession, my son?

• 57:40Lewis Howes?

  Funny.

• 57:40Chris Voss?

  Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, you know, an hour ago. I'm screwing up all the time.

• 57:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:45Chris Voss?

  And, and he, he, uh, he took the water, we poured it out. He's not supposed to pour it out. He poured it out for me. He turned around and walked me back, cut me in line in front of everybody else. Put me right back in the thing. It's just, yeah, I'm taking care of this guy. It's okay. And they put me through.

• 57:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow. That's great. That's amazing. Someone taught me this like 12 years ago. Um, and he said, use this, say, what are the chances that you can do this? What are the chances you can get me an upgrade? What are the chances you'd be able to do this?

• 58:17Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 58:18Lewis Howes?

  After you've created the rapport and the connection and all those things, what's the chance? And that has worked really well for me. And I'm wondering, why do you think using that has also worked?

• 58:30Chris Voss?

  Okay, so I'm, and I'm glad you brought that up because you asked me about questions before.

• 58:34Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:35Chris Voss?

  If you're gonna ask a question, they should only start with either the words how or what.

• 58:39Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 58:41Chris Voss?

  Because they feel very deferential to the other side. People love to be asked what somebody should do or how somebody should do something. It's extremely appealing to the other side. There's great power in deference.

• 58:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 58:59Chris Voss?

  It feels deferential.

• 59:02Chris Voss?

  So it's a lot more impactful than just saying, it's an open ended question. The who, what, when, where, why, and how should really just be narrowed down to what and how.

• 59:14Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 59:15Chris Voss?

  Now, how is primarily, but not exclusively.

• 59:23Chris Voss?

  To map implementation. How am I supposed to do that? Is actually. How am I supposed to implement that? You know, how do we get this done? It's implementation, what primarily, but not exclusively, to uncover obstacles? What stands in the way? What are the chances? So when you put it like that, you got a what question? It feels deferential. It's open ended. It triggers deep thinking. Danny Kahneman talks about deep, slow thinking. Your demeanor is very genuine and curious and connective.

• 1:00:07Chris Voss?

  You want to talk with people. And then what are the chances? Triggers people to immediately begin to assess where the obstacles in the environment are. And they're really gonna probably, if you look back at all your answers, because what are the chances? Most of the time, if I were to technically answer that question, the answer would be 50%, 75%. In point of fact, people probably say like, well, here's what we got to overcome. Here's what we gotta do. Here's what that would look like. They would be answering you in regards to the things to be overcome in order to make it happen.

• 1:00:48Lewis Howes?

  And then you can negotiate more and.

• 1:00:50Chris Voss?

  And then they would think about chances or how hard each of those obstacles would be to overcome. So those are the things I love about that question.

• 1:00:57Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting. When you were practicing, again, you're practicing all the time. I feel like this is something I've been doing as just a game in my life, just like a fun challenge. Can I get this from this person? Can I do this? Can I get an upgrade? It's just like a fun thing that I've been doing for a while. But when I started reading your book and having you on, I was like, okay, I need to do this even more. The question I'm curious about is with every interaction, is there always something we can get? Even if they say no? Like, for example, if they say, no, we can't upgrade you. I try to say, well, can I have a free mint? And if they say, oh, we don't have any mints. Then I say, can I get a fist bump? You know, can I get a smile? I'm always trying to like get a something, even if it's a little something.

• 1:01:42Lewis Howes?

  What's your thoughts on that? Like even if they say, even if they say no to everything that you want, but can you smile for me? Can you give me a bottle of water? Can you give me something, you know?

• 1:01:50Chris Voss?

  Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. There's energy, there's measurable energy. So it's always, if you're a complete mercenary, it's to your advantage to be increasing your positive karma.

• 1:02:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:03Chris Voss?

  It's gonna constantly increase your chances of success.

• 1:02:06Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:07Chris Voss?

  And the more karma you leave around you, you know, whether it's real or whether, you know, who knows what it is? But you're gonna, you're going to increase your chances of success.

• 1:02:17Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:02:18Chris Voss?

  And so, or, you know, you increase the chance of success to the guy behind you. And the guy behind you ends up sitting next to you on a plane. Or, you know, whoever's in line alongside you as you're increasing that karma is probably there because, yeah, if you're on the airplane, they're gonna be on a plane next to you. It might be the dude next to you. You know, there might be the guy who either rubs the flight attendants the wrong way, or he makes you feel good. And consequently, when she walks up to you, she has a different, I mean, there's, you know, the sort of the domino effect. The domino effect's always there. So I love that. I love that approach. And then in point of fact, you're doing it in a positive fashion,

• 1:03:03Chris Voss?

  which keeps you smart. So you're probably more prepared for your next interaction.

• 1:03:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:03:11Chris Voss?

  And there's nothing that fuels our momentum like success.

• 1:03:15Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:03:16Chris Voss?

  So if all you got as dude was a fist bump.

• 1:03:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:03:19Chris Voss?

  You're walking forward with a success.

• 1:03:20Lewis Howes?

  Something, yeah. It's something, okay. Good to know. Can you share your, for you, your greatest negotiation? Both when you were working FBI? It could be not in a hostage situation, but just the greatest negotiation you had during your time there? And also your greatest negotiation in life outside of that? This could be something small. This could have been for like the biggest deal ever. This could have been an intimate relationship. This could have been buying a car. This could be, you know, rescuing a hostage. I'm curious if you can give one example, personal life and professional life?

• 1:04:01Chris Voss?

  Wow. Yeah, I mean, there was, there was some different victories in hostage negotiation. After a really bad debacle, second case I worked in the Philippines, second major case, the Burnham-Sberl case. Two to three hostages died in friendly fire at the end. That whole case, 13 months from beginning to end, a lot of people died. It was a train wreck. It was, it was ugly from start to finish. An American citizen was executed early on. I mean, everything about that was ugly, everything. And we had, somebody got proof of life in the middle of that case. And I don't know who it was or how they got it. And we find out one of our hostages on the phone. Hostage is only ever on the phone for proof of life,

• 1:04:46Chris Voss?

  and he ain't on the phone with us. And we're thinking like, who the heck is out there? Is that a competing bidder for the hostages? Like, it was insane. So struggled that for a long time. Finally got the revelation of how it's done, which is, in my view, somebody on the other side and another player asked a how question. So that was when we first got onto how questions. Drug dealer in Pittsburgh.

• 1:05:14Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:05:14Chris Voss?

  Drug dealer on drug dealer kidnapping. They, drug dealer goes to the FBI? Because who do you go to when somebody in Port D. get kidnapped? The FBI, no matter who you are, even if you're a drug dealer. His girlfriend gets grabbed by another drug dealer. Hostage negotiator's riding around with this guy. On his own, he says to the other bad guy, hey, dog, it's my favorite phrase of all time. Hey, dog, how do I know she's alive? How question? Everything changes in that moment. Who really had the upper hand shifted? From the guy with the quote leverage, who had the hostage? Total shift in upper hand when he asked that how question. So I'm like, this is it, this is it, this is it. We gotta change.

• 1:05:57Lewis Howes?

  Start doing how questions.

• 1:05:58Chris Voss?

  We gotta do how questions.

• 1:05:59Lewis Howes?

  But what if someone, the, the person who has the hostage is like, well, you have to trust me or this person's gonna die. You know, you just have to believe, you know?

• 1:06:10Chris Voss?

  That's a possibility.

• 1:06:11Lewis Howes?

  Right. And then what would the follow up how question be? If someone's being unreasonable and not giving you a little bit?

• 1:06:20Chris Voss?

  How are we supposed to pay if we don't know they're alive?

• 1:06:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:06:23Chris Voss?

  You know, we got, we got, we got a couple lined up for the bad scenario. Now, there's a possibility that they may still go because that's the way it is.

• 1:06:36Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:06:37Chris Voss?

  But you gotta go that path to find out.

• 1:06:39Lewis Howes?

  First.

• 1:06:39Chris Voss?

  You can't be afraid of going that path. So we decided to do the how questions. And we do a shift. We got another kidnapping in Ecuador. It's a guy named Pepe. Who I'm still friends with.

• 1:06:55Lewis Howes?

  The kidnapper?

• 1:06:56Chris Voss?

  The hostage.

• 1:06:57Lewis Howes?

  Oh, I was like, I got you. I was like, the kidnapper?

• 1:07:00Chris Voss?

  I got some bizarre friends. I got, I got former prison gang members that are friends.

• 1:07:04Lewis Howes?

  I'm sure you do, yeah.

• 1:07:05Chris Voss?

  But none of them were hostage takers.

• 1:07:07Lewis Howes?

  Okay, yeah. So this was the hostage?

• 1:07:09Chris Voss?

  Hostage, Pepe, still a friend, he and his family. So we asked a how question. Now, the, it's in Ecuador, in the gala, which is the local police in Ecuador. They're like, we don't do it like that down here. We ask a different proof of life question. Pepe's wife afterwards says she knew there was tension between the FBI and the gala. And she knew it was there. But she appreciated the professionalism that nobody would argue in front of her. Well, they were arguing about this change I wanted them to make. So we're doing, we're doing a how question. And halfway through this thing, they start referring to Pepe as Don Pepe. And we were like, what? Don, that's a sign of respect. What?

• 1:07:53Chris Voss?

  And God's name is going on on the other side of the table. And about 28 days in, Don Pepe makes good his escape.

• 1:08:02Lewis Howes?

  He escapes.

• 1:08:03Chris Voss?

  Goes out, 2:00 in the morning, driving, rainstorm, middle of the jungle, goes out a window. He's a jungle guy. He was a jungle guide ahead of time. At 28 days, he'd been there, he figured out where the nearest town was, how to get there. He knew if he goes out in the rain, all he needs is a 20 minute head start, they're not gonna be able to track him. He's gonna be able to get to town, he's gonna be able to get out of there.

• 1:08:23Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:08:24Chris Voss?

  28 days in, I get a call from the same negotiator that had called me a year earlier and said, I got bad news. Martin Burnham is dead. This same guy happens to be in Ecuador on my behalf. And he says, hey, Pepe's out. He escaped. He hasn't got out of guerrilla territory yet. He's on a bus. We're going to meet him.

• 1:08:46Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:08:47Chris Voss?

  And so, I'm, this is all this how thing. So we never got proof of life. I can't wait to interview Pepe. He's actually a New York State resident. He's an American citizen, dual national. I'm sent down with him in upstate New York. And I'm like, hey, you know.

• 1:09:07Chris Voss?

  We never, we never, we never got proof of life. We're asking this how question and he said, you know, it was crazy. The whole time they talked about taking me to town to put me on the phone. And, and they kept talking with me about that. And that was one of the major factors that he went from being a commodity, a piece of property that they were housing in a house waiting to be sold. To this forced interaction on the other side of the table. Where they had to talk to him regularly.

• 1:09:41Lewis Howes?

  Kind of build a relationship with them.

• 1:09:43Chris Voss?

  And he happened to be very good at relationship building.

• 1:09:46Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:09:46Chris Voss?

  So we triggered the interaction. And then he capitalized on it with his natural gut instincts.

• 1:09:53Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:09:54Chris Voss?

  Creating the opportunity, they, they relaxed his security so much. Cause they got to know him as a person. They were less worried about him running away. They got very relaxed around him. They, they gave him the run of the camp. He sees the opportunity, 2:00 AM rainstorm, he's gone.

• 1:10:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:10:10Chris Voss?

  And that, to me, that was like, great negotiation gives the opportunity for good things to happen.

• 1:10:16Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:17Chris Voss?

  And you don't get so focused on your outcome that you wouldn't take something better.

• 1:10:20Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:21Chris Voss?

  And just, just engage in a process. And let great things happen.

• 1:10:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:10:27Chris Voss?

  And he escaped and that was not part of the game plan. And I realized if we've got a great process, if good things are gonna happen, you gotta let them happen.

• 1:10:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes, that's powerful. And what about personal, personal life outside of the FBI? Best, most memorable negotiation, again, it could be some big deal or something that was small, but really meaningful to you.

• 1:10:52Chris Voss?

  Wow. Director of Operations, Black Swan Group. Chelsea loves working with us. And we initially brought her in as one of the, um, uh, you know, the virtual assistants.

• 1:11:07Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:11:08Chris Voss?

  You know, not an employee. And you get a virtual assistant, cause if they don't work out, you don't gotta fire them. You say, hey, this person wasn't the right fit. We learned about fit. Chelsea's phenomenal. And just loves working with us. And the, the, the most satisfying one was when we hired her. The, the virtual company, um, wanted to continue with us as a customer. And we were good customer.

• 1:11:38Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:39Chris Voss?

  And so they let, you know, the deal that you sign in advance is if you hire an assistant, you gotta pay them a penalty.

• 1:11:45Lewis Howes?

  You gotta pay them like 30 or 50% of that year's salary or whatever you got.

• 1:11:48Chris Voss?

  Right, like they waived that. We brought Chelsea on, we got, we got a waiver because we continue to do business with them. And we're a good customer and we're not demanding jerks. No aggravation tax.

• 1:11:58Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:59Chris Voss?

  But we took one of their top people. So that negotiation went well. And when we brought Chelsea on board, we gave her a substantial raise. And she, she almost broke down in tears.

• 1:12:10Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:12:10Chris Voss?

  That was cool.

• 1:12:11Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:12:12Chris Voss?

  And she's, to this day, like I joke around that she's, like I'm a toddler and she's, she's a minor, she keeps tracking me.

• 1:12:22Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:12:22Chris Voss?

  And if I'm not where I'm supposed to be, you know, I'm getting a buzzing on my phone.

• 1:12:26Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 1:12:27Chris Voss?

  Her husband plays a banjo, so her ringtone is a banjo.

• 1:12:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's great. In a world that has now shifted to, what seems like might be a for a while, half virtual, half in person. This kind of flexible style of communication. What have you noticed over the last couple of years about the challenges of virtual negotiations versus in-person negotiations?

• 1:12:54Chris Voss?

  See, that's another reason why I think this energy thing that you feel is real. Because, you know, people get on Zoom and they go like, ah, you know, I gotta see him. I gotta see him. I gotta be in person. Like you got almost all the same data visually that you had before.

• 1:13:06Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:13:07Chris Voss?

  Like if you and I are meeting in person and we're at a table, I don't see you from the waist down.

• 1:13:11Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:13:11Chris Voss?

  If we're on Zoom, I don't see you from the waist down. The amount of visual data is all there. And everybody feels more uncomfortable on Zoom.

• 1:13:22Lewis Howes?

  And more, more uncomfortable? Uncomfortable.

• 1:13:24Chris Voss?

  Everybody complains about the comfort feeling on Zoom. And they attribute it to the visual data and the visual data hasn't changed. And it's my belief that there is a feel, there's an actual feel that we get from people when we're in the room. And I, I think it's one more indicator of why, you know, this, uh, whether you call them, uh, you know, auras or, you know, the energy that you exude is an actual thing. And we just don't have the ability to measure it yet.

• 1:13:56Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:13:56Chris Voss?

  I mean, like if we were all deaf, sound would seem mystical, right?

• 1:13:59Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:14:00Chris Voss?

  So I think, I think that's what we've learned.

• 1:14:03Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:14:04Chris Voss?

  In terms of human communication. And then I think the, the hybrid model is actually better for everybody.

• 1:14:09Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:14:10Chris Voss?

  I think it's created a better work environment. I think we, we have learned that we can be more effective at home. And we need to get out of our houses.

• 1:14:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:14:20Chris Voss?

  And we need to be in person.

• 1:14:21Lewis Howes?

  And you both.

• 1:14:22Chris Voss?

  Yeah, and so how do we blend the two? So that not only you're happier and more productive. And you're happier because you're more productive.

• 1:14:33Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:14:34Chris Voss?

  And then, and then you find the right job. And your employer's happier with you. Because you're doing a better job and you're happier.

• 1:14:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:41Chris Voss?

  So I, I think, uh, energy is real. In-person energy is real. I love the evolution of how we're creating a better work environment. I don't think you have to have an office. But I think we need to be in person frequently, just to feel, there's something about matching of the energies that makes us all better.

• 1:14:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, that's cool. Have you ever gone up against, not like gone up against, but worked with another master negotiator?

• 1:15:10Chris Voss?

  Everybody on my team.

• 1:15:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I mean, but maybe a complete stranger that you're like, oh, this person, oh, they know what they're doing. Like they're, they're another level of, they're using your strategies or they have their own that are really effective. And is it harder to negotiate with someone who is actually really powerful communicator, confident, using great negotiation strategies, not manipulative? Or is it easier? Because you kind of both speak the same language.

• 1:15:39Chris Voss?

  It's, uh, well, it, it really depends upon whether or not they're trying to be collaborative.

• 1:15:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:44Chris Voss?

  And so it's easier. A, a Black Swan trained negotiator is trying to be collaborative. That's a great negotiation. I mean, and, and we're, we're engaged in it all the time.

• 1:15:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:15:56Chris Voss?

  Like our, our clients, we're making them better negotiators. Like we're always trying to scare out a better deal. We're always trying to figure out what's better for them, what's better for us.

• 1:16:06Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:16:08Chris Voss?

  Um, and so welcome it. It's really what the other person's trying to do. And there, we've run across some old style people. You know, you're here in Los Angeles. Entertainment industry is famous for being purely exploitive.

• 1:16:24Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:16:25Chris Voss?

  So you could have a great resume in the entertainment industry. And be a really offensive human being. Now because of your resume, your employer might think I'm a high and a great person.

• 1:16:35Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:35Chris Voss?

  When in fact, you're running around offending people regularly.

• 1:16:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:16:39Chris Voss?

  And, and had a negotiation like this. Where it started going off the rails early. And I looked this person up and they had an extensive entertainment industry background. And I thought, all right, here's a problem.

• 1:16:53Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:16:54Chris Voss?

  Their resume looks great.

• 1:16:56Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:56Chris Voss?

  But it's from an industry where if you cannot get every, get all the chips, then you don't want to do that deal.

• 1:17:06Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:08Chris Voss?

  And, and then I, which I also think the top level of the entertainment industry, you know, these guys and gals get together at a social function. And they say, look, stop messing around. What do you need? How do we make this deal so we're both better?

• 1:17:23Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:17:23Chris Voss?

  But they're very quiet about that.

• 1:17:25Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:17:26Chris Voss?

  Cause they don't want to be seen as pushovers.

• 1:17:27Lewis Howes?

  Right, because it takes a month or two to negotiate, then they're back doing like, what do we need to do? Let's figure this out.

• 1:17:33Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Chris Voss?

  Yeah, so we, you know, we see, when I see those types adopting our skills, if somebody's using Black Swan against me.

• 1:17:44Chris Voss?

  But I'll figure that out really fast.

• 1:17:46Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:17:48Chris Voss?

  And, um, no, it's not a sin to not get the deal. It's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal.

• 1:17:54Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, because you're wasting time.

• 1:17:55Chris Voss?

  You're wasting time. It's also a sin to take a long time to get a bad deal.

• 1:17:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:00Chris Voss?

  So if I know the deal is going to be a bad deal, then we quit and we move on.

• 1:18:05Lewis Howes?

  What do you do when something you feel like is dragging off? You're going back and forth, back and forth. And it's been weeks, a month.

• 1:18:11Chris Voss?

  We don't go back and forth.

• 1:18:12Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:18:13Chris Voss?

  No. Look, there's a good reason it's going back and forth. We're going to figure that out and we're going to make a decision. We're going to move on.

• 1:18:21Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:22Chris Voss?

  And we started, you know, our, our internal terminology, which I borrowed from a guy, Joe Polish, Gene Shriver. He calls them halves and elves. Easy, lucrative and fun. Hard, annoying, lame and frustrating. What some people would call a peter, pain in the neck.

• 1:18:38Chris Voss?

  Peter does not obviously finish with an N.

• 1:18:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:42Chris Voss?

  But everybody's got their term for that person. So I, I tell my team, who negotiates on my behalf all the time. Look, let's walk away from the half sooner rather than later. Let's develop a profile of what a half says.

• 1:18:57Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:57Chris Voss?

  So we figure them out earlier. Now, in the meantime, let's pull our own data. How long does it take to make a deal with a good customer? How long does it take to make a deal with an annoying customer? And we found out two things. Number one, it can take five times as long to make the deal with an annoying customer.

• 1:19:18Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:19:19Chris Voss?

  So now we're working at 20% of our pay.

• 1:19:22Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:22Chris Voss?

  We just took an 80% pay cut.

• 1:19:24Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:19:25Chris Voss?

  And the annoying customers are not repeats.

• 1:19:30Lewis Howes?

  Right. They're takers.

• 1:19:32Chris Voss?

  Yeah. And if, if they're annoying for us, we're probably annoying for them.

• 1:19:37Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:37Chris Voss?

  So here's the, here's the proposition. Do you want repeat customers that pay you full value? Or do you want one offs that want an 80% discount? And you're never going to see them again.

• 1:19:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:19:51Chris Voss?

  So as soon as you drop the one offs, then the repeaters accelerate.

• 1:19:57Chris Voss?

  And how do you put yourself in a, in a position where your business accelerates?

• 1:20:01Lewis Howes?

  Right. You let go of those types of people.

• 1:20:03Chris Voss?

  So it's like a little friction.

• 1:20:04Lewis Howes?

  It's learning the profile and learning to understand what are the cues.

• 1:20:07Chris Voss?

  Yep.

• 1:20:08Lewis Howes?

  Of those types of individuals.

• 1:20:10Chris Voss?

  Yeah. We did the same thing in hostage negotiation.

• 1:20:13Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:20:13Chris Voss?

  They realized that there were some bad guys that were not going to come out. Suicide by cop.

• 1:20:20Chris Voss?

  And once we recognized suicide by cop, which is, you know, the harsh nature of the reality is if a guy went there to die and he has hostages, what we had to accept was that he's going to kill hostages until we kill him.

• 1:20:34Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:34Chris Voss?

  And it was always a him.

• 1:20:36Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:20:37Chris Voss?

  And so then if this is going to be the case, are there telltale signs at the beginning? And my old boss, Gary Nester, came up with a block of instruction called high risk indicators. What are the indicators of high risk? What are you going to see in the first hour? And so I went back to my team and I, well, we're going to do high risk indicators for bad customers.

• 1:21:01Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, that's good.

• 1:21:02Chris Voss?

  What are they going to say in the first hour?

• 1:21:04Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:21:05Chris Voss?

  And then let's, and then let's, before we know for sure, let's make a list of the things that they say that we suspect. And then let's just track how long it took to make the deal. And whether or not they made another deal. And you will be shocked. It doesn't matter who you are.

• 1:21:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:21:25Chris Voss?

  The behavior is going to be repeated in your world over and over and over.

• 1:21:30Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:31Chris Voss?

  And you are going to be able to spot them in the first 20 minutes.

• 1:21:35Lewis Howes?

  If I look back at all the relationships, intimate relationships that didn't work, I could go back and spot the first, you know, interaction, the second one and, and realize, well, that was all because of me. I didn't spot it correctly. And I kept repeating the wrong relationships, so.

• 1:21:54Lewis Howes?

  But that's good. It's having those indicators, tracking it and, and then adjusting moving forward when you have a new potential customer, potential girlfriend, whatever it might be. Having that indicator.

• 1:22:05Chris Voss?

  I'll give you one of the big ones in business of somebody who's going to be a problem.

• 1:22:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:22:10Chris Voss?

  I've got a great opportunity for you.

• 1:22:14Lewis Howes?

  That's a bad indicator.

• 1:22:15Chris Voss?

  It's a bad indicator.

• 1:22:16Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:17Chris Voss?

  And what that means is this is a great opportunity for me if you do all the work.

• 1:22:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:25Chris Voss?

  A lot of people are seduced by the enormity of the opportunity.

• 1:22:31Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:32Chris Voss?

  Like, there's a lot of money there. I got a bunch of billionaires in a room. This is a great opportunity for you. No, it's not.

• 1:22:39Lewis Howes?

  No, you're doing all the work, yeah.

• 1:22:42Chris Voss?

  You want to put me in front of those billionaires because they're going to make you look good. And so then my question will be back to you like, all right, so how's this play down in the past?

• 1:22:54Chris Voss?

  Who that looks like me, did you put in this position? And how did it work out for them?

• 1:23:01Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:23:03Chris Voss?

  Because now that's implementation.

• 1:23:06Chris Voss?

  Like, all right, so you got me worried by offering me this great opportunity. I suspect it means if I do all the work, something will come of this.

• 1:23:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:18Chris Voss?

  So maybe what's that work look like?

• 1:23:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:23:24Chris Voss?

  Have you done this in the past?

• 1:23:25Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:26Chris Voss?

  How did it work out?

• 1:23:27Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:23:27Chris Voss?

  I'm asking how questions.

• 1:23:29Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:30Chris Voss?

  Because I'm suspicious, but I got to worry about how's this going to go.

• 1:23:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:34Chris Voss?

  So that, that's been a real consistent thing across the board.

• 1:23:38Lewis Howes?

  It's a big indicator. Yeah. It's powerful stuff, Chris.

• 1:23:41Chris Voss?

  Listen, I got a great opportunity for you. You know, and if you would just go to Dubai and move your whole operation to Dubai.

• 1:23:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:48Chris Voss?

  And set up there, like, I think Dubai is a great opportunity.

• 1:23:52Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:53Chris Voss?

  And you're going to be sitting there like, are you kidding me?

• 1:23:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Chris Voss?

  Do you have any idea the time zone?

• 1:23:59Lewis Howes?

  I know.

• 1:23:59Chris Voss?

  And how many people I have?

• 1:24:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:02Chris Voss?

  But I, I actually, when we were talking earlier, I asked you about setting up shop in other countries.

• 1:24:07Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:08Chris Voss?

  And your immediate reaction was how hard that was going to be.

• 1:24:12Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:24:13Chris Voss?

  Because in throwing it out there, I want to get a feel for, is this a layup for you? Is this a slam dunk?

• 1:24:22Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:23Chris Voss?

  Am I, do I think it's a slam dunk? And you think it's a three point shot?

• 1:24:27Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:24:27Chris Voss?

  Or it's a half court shot?

• 1:24:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:30Chris Voss?

  Now I'm teasing this out. Like I, there are things like that that could be good opportunities for some people. But is your team set up and ready to move for it?

• 1:24:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:24:39Chris Voss?

  That's really where that, all that comes in. So if somebody has a great opportunity, I got to know what the journey looks like. My team is set up or it's not.

• 1:24:49Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:24:50Chris Voss?

  But I can't jump at that opportunity. And there are a number of places out there that are glittering jewels in the distance.

• 1:24:55Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:56Chris Voss?

  Like Dubai, which I'm thinking seriously about setting up shop there.

• 1:25:01Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:25:02Chris Voss?

  But it doesn't work for everybody.

• 1:25:04Lewis Howes?

  Right. Right.

• 1:25:05Chris Voss?

  So I got, I, some, somebody saying to me Dubai is an opportunity, that ain't good enough.

• 1:25:10Lewis Howes?

  Right. I've been there twice. It's, it's actually pretty fascinating what they've built. I mean, it's pretty impressive. But again, you're on the other side of the world, you know? And if you do a lot of business in the U.S. and it's just a different, you got to see if that, that could be a bigger benefit over there.

• 1:25:25Chris Voss?

  What's the journey to the opportunity?

• 1:25:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:28Chris Voss?

  And what are the obstacles in route?

• 1:25:29Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 1:25:30Chris Voss?

  And very few people think about that because a great idea looks like a great opportunity and they don't have an appreciation for the landscape on the way.

• 1:25:38Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm. Chris, you're the master, master negotiator. Uh, I want people to follow you. I want them to get your book. I want them to check you out. BlackSwanLTD.com/newsletter, is that right?

• 1:25:52Chris Voss?

  Uh, slash the dash edge. The newsletter is the edge.

• 1:25:57Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 1:25:57Chris Voss?

  But the website, the website is a goldmine.

• 1:25:59Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:26:00Chris Voss?

  There's a lot of free stuff.

• 1:26:02Lewis Howes?

  So much good stuff there.

• 1:26:03Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:03Lewis Howes?

  I mean, they got to get your book. You know, if you're watching this or listening, you got to get your book. That's step one. Go through that.

• 1:26:08Chris Voss?

  Never split the difference.

• 1:26:09Lewis Howes?

  It's incredible. So I don't know, how many copies have you sold now? You've sold so many, do you know?

• 1:26:13Chris Voss?

  Worldwide, we're over 3 million.

• 1:26:15Lewis Howes?

  3 million? It's incredible, man.

• 1:26:18Chris Voss?

  That's the other good thing about it. This works in every country.

• 1:26:20Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:26:21Chris Voss?

  Like I'm, I'm in Dubai. Young female, Asian female walks up to me. I, I don't know until I assess. She tells me she's Chinese. She says, I, I negotiate with your book all the time.

• 1:26:34Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:26:34Chris Voss?

  I go, let me get this straight. You're in China, right? She's like, yeah, I'm Chinese. Like, okay, so you're using Never Split the Difference to negotiate with Chinese people in China? And she's like, yeah, just, just want to make sure.

• 1:26:50Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. Yeah. 3 million copies. So if you guys don't have the book yet, get the book. BlackSwanLTD.com. So many good resources, articles, all this different stuff you got on there. I love all your stuff there.

• 1:27:02Chris Voss?

  Thanks.

• 1:27:03Lewis Howes?

  Um, we've got a couple of previous interviews with you. We'll make sure to link those up. But I think this was a good refresher and some more stories you shared here, which was really cool. Always a pleasure having you on. I've got a question for you. How else can we be of support and service to you today?

• 1:27:20Lewis Howes?

  Besides people getting the newsletter, getting the book, following you on social media?

• 1:27:23Chris Voss?

  You know, what, what we're trying to do, and you and I talked about this a little bit before, so I'll mention it again. We're trying to slowly back into the space of improving police community, minority community relations. And so neither side realizes how traumatized their counterparts are.

• 1:27:39Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:27:42Chris Voss?

  So, um, the cops, most, many street cops are suffering from traumatic stress.

• 1:27:49Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:27:51Chris Voss?

  The communities that they're serving are suffering from worse traumatic stress.

• 1:27:57Chris Voss?

  So it's not surprising that there's problems.

• 1:28:03Chris Voss?

  So what we're trying to do is gently, quietly, figure out ways to increase understanding with the other side. So if you're law enforcement, spend some time in a community while you're not on the job.

• 1:28:22Chris Voss?

  If you're...

• 1:28:26Chris Voss?

  In a community that needs cops, but is not getting along with them, whatever you could do to give a cop a break, to take it a little bit easier on them, to not honk at them when they're blocking traffic, to realize, you know, they're not intentionally trying to screw up my day. We're just gently trying to get into the space, ever so gently, because these are two communities that need each other.

• 1:28:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. How are you guys doing that? Or how come people support that?

• 1:28:59Chris Voss?

  One of our trainers, Troy Smith, he's got an organization called Walk a Mile in My Shoes. And he's developing relationships between the police in disadvantaged communities, which is really euphemism for black. By and large, the communities that struggle the most on a regular basis, for whatever reasons, there's no shortage of blame across the board. Nobody is any, no group is more, is without sin.

• 1:29:31Chris Voss?

  And but but what Troy's doing with Walk a Mile in My Shoes is making a difference.

• 1:29:35Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. Okay. Where can they check that out or learn more?

• 1:29:40Lewis Howes?

  They Google Walk a Mile in My Shoes, they'll probably find it or?

• 1:29:42Chris Voss?

  Yeah, yeah. He should, I think they've got it set up on on his website. But or or email us.

• 1:29:50Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:29:51Chris Voss?

  Email [email protected]. Say you want to be supportive of Walk a Mile in My Shoes.

• 1:29:56Lewis Howes?

  Nice.

• 1:29:57Chris Voss?

  And we'll turn you on to them.

• 1:29:58Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool. I want to acknowledge you, Chris, for your constant, you constantly showing up and giving people tools, strategies, resources to become better communicators, to become better negotiators in ethical win-win situations, not manipulative situations, for giving people strategies to have a more enriched life.

• 1:30:20Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:21Lewis Howes?

  And it's really cool that you continue to show up this way. So appreciate you for for all that you're doing and the consistent effort you add to the world. I've asked you this question before, but I'll see if it's different. Three truths question. So it's imagine it's your last day on earth and you've accomplished everything you want, but for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you. So no one has access to your books, so your messages or this interview, it's gone. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world. And this is all we would have of your wisdom, your life experience that you would share behind. What would be those three truths for you?

• 1:30:56Chris Voss?

  You know, before you disagree with anybody, see if you can lay out what their position is.

• 1:31:03Chris Voss?

  How they see it. You're free to disagree all you want. But you got to lay out, before I disagree, as there's, I can tell this is how you feel about this. And lay it out in a way that they would say, that's right. And you can disagree all you want.

• 1:31:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:18Chris Voss?

  Like, if people would just do that, the amount of stress and anxiety in the world would decrease.

• 1:31:23Lewis Howes?

  Because they would feel seen and heard and understood.

• 1:31:25Chris Voss?

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:31:27Lewis Howes?

  Okay. That's one. That's one.

• 1:31:29Chris Voss?

  And how many more do I got to do?

• 1:31:30Lewis Howes?

  Two more.

• 1:31:33Chris Voss?

  Don't quit. Because your competition's going to.

• 1:31:38Chris Voss?

  You know, the McDonald's movie, The Founder. You know, depending upon how you, how, what you thought of that movie, Michael Keaton in that role. You know, early on, he's listening to a motivational speaker, you know, persistence, persistence, persistence. And then after he's a business success, he's giving the same speech. Like, and it's a cliche, you know, to be persistent. But the reality is your competition's going to quit. Like, like, the Black Swan team, we're not going to quit.

• 1:32:13Chris Voss?

  And we're not in a hurry.

• 1:32:16Chris Voss?

  But by and large,

• 1:32:19Chris Voss?

  all of our competition in our space is slowly falling by the wayside because they're going to quit. They're going to stop learning. They're going to lay back on their laurels. And that's just not our competition. Like, your competition's gonna quit. So all you got to do, Molly Bloom says you never lose. If you don't quit, you can't lose. Your competition's gonna quit if you just don't give up.

• 1:32:48Lewis Howes?

  Keep showing up.

• 1:32:48Chris Voss?

  All you got to do, you know, there is no finish line. Looking at all the different ways that you hear from other directions. Like, there's no finish line. Like, when am I going to be done?

• 1:32:59Chris Voss?

  Your competition's going to quit. So if you don't quit, you're going to ask outlast the people that you're competing against. And then finally, just learn, just learn slowly. There's a phrase out there, you know, the only sustainable competitive advantage is to learn faster than your competition. Don't pressure yourself to learn fast. Because if you don't quit and you just learn slowly,

• 1:33:25Chris Voss?

  then that's, those two things are going to, are going to build. But if you pressure yourself to learn fast, like, you have a bad day.

• 1:33:33Chris Voss?

  Somebody takes you out and you have a great night out. Like, you know, I'm old enough these days. Like, I can drink as much as I used to, but it takes me two days to get over it instead of a half a day.

• 1:33:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:43Chris Voss?

  But if I, if I got heavy pressure on myself to learn a lot every day and I lose a day, now I'm kicking myself because I feel like I lost a lot. But if I only want to learn a little bit each day and I got a day where I'm in the tank and I didn't do any good and I didn't get out of bed or I didn't eat right. Like, I haven't lost a lot. I can recover from a lost day very easily if I don't pressure myself for each day to be big. So just, just learn just a little bit each day and don't quit. And you're, you're going to be, you're going to, you're going to get to meet interesting, cool people like Lewis Howes.

• 1:34:18Lewis Howes?

  There you go. There you go. I love it.

• 1:34:21Lewis Howes?

  Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:34:24Chris Voss?

  For a man to be a gentleman.

• 1:34:27Chris Voss?

  And I realize that, you know, some people want to say these are chauvinistic terms. Equivalent term for a woman would be the lady. But somebody close to me once pointed out the highest compliment you could ever pay a man is refer to him as a gentleman. You know, so integrity, polite, hardworking, look out for other people.

• 1:34:47Chris Voss?

  You know, do this, you know, I stand when a woman walks in a room. I pull out a chair. My girlfriend cannot get into a vehicle that I don't open a door for. You know, that to me, to be a gentleman is to be a success. And there's an equivalent term, whatever that term might be, regardless of your gender or your gender orientation, whatever it is to be a good human being and whatever that label is that doesn't restrict you, but you know, calls you to be your highest self.

• 1:35:15Lewis Howes?

  Chris, appreciate it, man. Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

• 1:35:58Lewis Howes?

  And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.