Mini Truck Boom, Kylie and Zuck vs Spiegel and RDJ, Europe Considers AC

(01:07) - TBPN at Cannes Lions Recap / Europe Considers AC (06:33) - The Current Creator Economy (19:56) - Kylie and Zuck vs Spiegel and RDJ (56:52) - Rockstar Energy CEO Selling Real Estate (01:01:28) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (01:21:16) - Softbank Pitch Deck (01:31:26) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (01:47:44) - Mini Truck Boom (01:57:48) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (02:02:48) - The WSJ Mansion Section (02:13:38) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions TBPN is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Public - https://public.com Cisco - https://www.cisco.com Console - https://www.console.com CrowdStrike - https://www.crowdstrike.com Figma - https://www.figma.com MongoDB - https://www.mongodb.com NYSE - https://www.nyse.com Railway - https://railway.com Shopify - https://www.shopify.com Codex - http://openAI.com/codex Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tbpn/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  You're watching TVP. Today's Friday, June 26, 2026. We are live from the TVP and Ultra, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. Let me tell you about ramp.com. Time is money. Save both. Easy to use corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. And now they got two CEOs. You want to partner with a company that just has one CEO? No way. Get out of here. You want to go with a company that has two. Kareem promoted. Very, very fun development in the ramp story.

• 0:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I was thinking about it. We've, we've obviously had like tons of conversations with the ramp team over the years and it's like actually always been 50 50 Kareem, Eric. And so very natural move for them.

• 0:44John Coogan?

  I mean, they've been working together for over a decade at this point across multiple companies and have always in both founders and both, you know, major shareholders.

• 0:52Jordi Hays?

  We're like following in our footsteps.

• 0:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. This is the TVP. In fact, we get to take credit for this.

• 0:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00John Coogan?

  Yeah. Congrats to Kareem on the promotion, the field promotion. It's very exciting and go check out ramp, of course. We're back.

• 1:08Jordi Hays?

  Equally important. We're back.

• 1:10John Coogan?

  France.

• 1:11Jordi Hays?

  We miss you guys. We miss you guys a lot.

• 1:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, it was rough.

• 1:14Jordi Hays?

  It's actually, it's genuinely, it's genuinely brutal.

• 1:17John Coogan?

  It's brutal.

• 1:18Jordi Hays?

  We feel deeply unwell by around 1pm if we haven't gone live, regardless of the time zone.

• 1:25John Coogan?

  Sweating and shaking is crazy.

• 1:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:27John Coogan?

  It is a full.

• 1:28Jordi Hays?

  I mean, the, yeah, and the withdrawals. I mean, maybe it would get better after a few weeks, but yeah, the symptoms are brutal.

• 1:35John Coogan?

  Anyway, it was a high stakes trip. Of course, Jordy has battled with French President Emmanuel Macron in the past. And then what appeared to be a direct shot at me, France recently banned nicotine pouches fully, very controversial.

• 1:52Jordi Hays?

  Pretty much all oral nicotine products banned.

• 1:55John Coogan?

  Yeah. So.

• 1:56Jordi Hays?

  As of April.

• 1:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57Jordi Hays?

  And so we went over there, we went over there to make. We went over there to make amends and right away it felt like, you know, they were sending messages. Yeah. Uh, straight from the top. Yep. Cause we land in Paris. Yep. And we have a connecting flight. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Uh, where, where the conference is and, uh, you know, we get in the airport, you know, we're, we're excited to be there. Yeah. Paris, right? Uh, the sun is shining. Small issue is it's roughly a hundred degrees inside the airport. Coincidence, interesting coincidence. Yeah. We're there. Right when we show up. Then it gets hot. Generational heat wave. Yeah. And, uh, Make some questions. Of course there's no air conditioning, right? It's, it's legitimately a hundred degrees.

• 2:41Jordi Hays?

  You look around, there's, everyone has their fans out. Yep. They're like sweating profusely, uh, really, really messy situation. Uh, go to a cafe, try to get an ice drink. They're out of ice. The whole airport doesn't have AC or ice in the whole airport. Yeah. And then we go to get on our flight and, uh, we sit down and, you know, we're waiting, we're waiting. Starting to feel like we're waiting a little bit too long to get off the ground. About 45 minutes in, uh, they come over the intercom and, uh, let us know that the air conditioning on the plane is broken and they're working on fixing it.

• 3:21Jordi Hays?

  30 minutes later, uh, they come over again and they say, uh, we've been unable to get the air conditioning working. We're not going to be able to take off. You have to deplane and, you know, we, we felt terrible for all the other passengers because clearly it was Macron just sabotaging our flight. Yeah. But for him to inconvenience, you know, hundreds of other people just. Shows you how important it is to him. Just to get at us. Yeah. It's just insane. To me that crossed the line. It's like, if it's, you know, clearly it's personal. Yep. But figure out a way to, you know, come at us. Be a little more targeted. Yeah, more targeted. Exactly. Why does there need to be so much collateral damage? Uh, and then of course on our next flight. Yep.

• 4:04Jordi Hays?

  Uh, we get to the, we get to the airport, plane's ready, pilot's ready. And, uh, you know, they tell us again, like, hey, we're, we're just figuring out some stuff. We're, we're going to take off as soon as we can. Uh, we're bored, we. Decide, hey, is any, anything, any like World Cup games on? We should turn, turn it on and see. So we're sitting there and we're like, whoa, France is actually playing in the World Cup right now. What, what are the chances? Uh, and so we keep kind of checking in with the pilot. He, and, and he's like, yeah, we need, we need a little bit more time. We're not really sure why. Uh, the plane's there, the pilot's there, they're ready to go. We're like, what's going on? A little bit later.

• 4:47John Coogan?

  Like we're ready to go.

• 4:47Jordi Hays?

  10 minutes before, you know, it's like 35 minutes into the game.

• 4:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:51Jordi Hays?

  They're like, hey, we just need a few more minutes. The fuel truck's going to be here soon. Thank you for your patience. This time, by this point, we've been waiting for like an hour and a half.

• 4:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:59Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, halftime starts 10 minutes later. There's fuel in the plane, we're ready to go. And we're just sitting there like.

• 5:08John Coogan?

  Coincidence.

• 5:08Jordi Hays?

  Coincidence? I think not. Um, anyways, little bit of a, little bit of a journey to get there, but, uh, we had a good week.

• 5:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, it was good. Adquick was there representing, saw some Adquick, uh, billboards and, uh, Mercedes with Adquick livery that looked pretty sick.

• 5:25Jordi Hays?

  That's right. Who else was there?

• 5:27John Coogan?

  Who?

• 5:28Jordi Hays?

  With one of the best out of home placements of the event, vibe.co.

• 5:33John Coogan?

  Co.

• 5:35Jordi Hays?

  Who announced a $1.4 billion acquisition.

• 5:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Jordi Hays?

  Uh, to Walmart.

• 5:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:40Jordi Hays?

  Uh, the first day, the first real day of the conference.

• 5:44John Coogan?

  It was really good.

• 5:45Jordi Hays?

  So congratulations to the vibe.co team, uh, pretty unbelievable. Uh, they, they, I wouldn't say they were under the radar because they were very loud with their advertising.

• 5:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:56Jordi Hays?

  Uh, but, uh, you know, not, you know, in, in a sea of just like AI exits.

• 6:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:03Jordi Hays?

  Like they stand out as like one of the most impressive, uh, runs of the last couple of years.

• 6:10John Coogan?

  And I saw some people digging into the, the Walmart strategy around vibe and they have a whole host of other platforms for their ad platform that, uh, seems to be coming together quite nicely.

• 6:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 6:20John Coogan?

  We should dig into it more and have the founder on to talk about the journey. Before we continue, let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it. Little history, Cannes Lions. It used to be mostly about creative advertisements, giving awards for creativity. Mostly in consumer. They didn't really have a B2B focus until maybe a decade ago. Now it's much more broad, much more corporate, as you saw, we mentioned, you know, ad, like digital ad platforms have presences there. It's much more performance oriented and there's a big focus on the creator economy. It really cuts across different media forms.

• 7:03John Coogan?

  You know, big networks and television will be there, The New York Times will be there, but then also small YouTubers, Instagram creators, a whole host of people will be sent there alongside some sort of brand on like a brand trip. Spotify threw a big concert on the beach, John Summit played because they have a large ads platform primarily. Like it makes sense that Spotify would have a music guest, but they're there specifically to promote their ads product. Yahoo had Tiesto play, again, basically to facilitate deals around their ads business. There are other activations from big tech companies and ad platforms. Athletes attend. Hollywood talent agencies host parties. It's not packed with A-list celebrities, but it feels like everyone has a following of some sort. And that was a big point of discussion.

• 7:48John Coogan?

  Like there was one level of conversation that was just like creators are the future, everyone's heard this pitch a million times. But the bigger discussion was something that Andrew Ross Sorkin from Squawk Box CNBC, Dealbook, mentioned, talking about the trade-offs between independence and consolidation. You've talked about this before, just the idea of a roll-up of independent substackers. Where is the right economy of scale in the creator economy? Maybe not everyone should be independent, maybe not everyone should be with a large organization. And this trade-off is sort of interesting to dig into as we see both creators go bigger and produce more expensive shows and then also the legacy media companies are getting better at social media-type content.

• 8:33John Coogan?

  So we can kind of dig into that. This Andrew's post was really widely discussed in creator circles, but we'll we'll read it here. I'm flying back from Cannes, something I've been thinking about. I was taken aback by how some of what I thought were most successful, the most successful influencers say that they need to spend so much money to keep up that they're not making the kind of headline popping numbers. We often read about and he asks for thoughts and a lot of people, High Yield Harry says, not surprising. You can't be at 80 to 90% EBITDA margins forever and expect to retain attention and scale. It's going to bring in more competition and that's a piece of what's happening.

• 9:15John Coogan?

  I think there's, I think there's a few things happening. One is the big transition from independent creators pivoting from making content to making shows. And you can look at Subway takes in this, in this way. The other show from is keep the meter running, much more high, much more produced, much more edited, much more costly to, to produce. And then also, but you're still faced with some of the awkwardness around how do you actually monetize that? There isn't a logical ad break, although I think there should be in a three minute Subway takes ad or video, a three minute episode. I think that it would be fine to have a five to 10 second mid roll in the middle of that. But that has not been done, like that floodgate hasn't opened yet.

• 10:00John Coogan?

  So most creators are doing, it's either a really polished, vertical video about their own content. And then they'll do a promoted post that's another 30 second, 60 second, multi-minute vertical video in their same style, but purely sponsored content. And a lot of those videos don't go as viral. And so you have this awkward trade off where the content that's great that people want can't be monetized. You have to do like one and one, it'd be a little bit tricky. Like part of the way our show works is that we're just talking about whatever. And then we'll tell you about Cisco, critical infrastructure for the AI era, unlock seamless, real time experiences, a new value with Cisco. It would be different if we had to do every other, every other episode is just purely about.

• 10:44John Coogan?

  And then we go back to about just the news and talking. And so that's that's something that's like starting to evolve. And those higher cost structures, I think that they still have more enduring.

• 10:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Forbes came out with their top creators list and.

• 11:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 11:00Jordi Hays?

  Earnings, Mr. Beast was at the top with 300 million. I would imagine.

• 11:05John Coogan?

  But that's revenue.

• 11:05Jordi Hays?

  That, yeah, like. Earnings is is not the right word here. It should just be gross revenue.

• 11:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:12Jordi Hays?

  I have no idea what what Jimmy's margins actually look like on that 300. But I'm it would appear he's spending like.

• 11:21John Coogan?

  He's obsessed with reinvesting for the future of growth.

• 11:24Jordi Hays?

  That's always been a part of.

• 11:24John Coogan?

  As opposed to Joe Rogan, who has these big deals and he seems completely content to be in a tiny set. And yeah, same same and not really trying to buy anything to accelerate growth.

• 11:37Jordi Hays?

  Dar Man.

• 11:39John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, he was there.

• 11:39Jordi Hays?

  Was number two at 65 in top line, Stephen Bartlett. At 52, Arkiplier, 38, Rettenlink, 37, Charlie D'Amelio, 18. Druski, 20, Ice Speed, 30. Very weird that that. Doesn't seem to be ordered by.

• 12:02John Coogan?

  Oh, really?

• 12:05John Coogan?

  Ordered loosely.

• 12:05Jordi Hays?

  But they're just, yeah, anyways.

• 12:07John Coogan?

  Yeah, Dar Man has production costs as well. He does these like short scripted stories. Mostly for he's huge on Facebook, but he's big on other platforms as well. And they have real costs because he has to go find a set, a location, real cameras, multi camera shoots, editing, and real actors. Of course, all of it is like low budget filmmaking, but there is cost to that. And it is, of course, increasing as the as the competitive, as the competition heats up.

• 12:34Jordi Hays?

  Trey says Rogan has a lot of peptide expenses.

• 12:37John Coogan?

  I don't think you can spend $100 million a year on peptides if that's what he's bringing in top line. Anyway. The zero marginal cost era of yapping into your iPhone, it seems ultra competitive now. It seems like it's increasingly rare to see that scale in 2026. People are still breaking through, but they're breaking through with new, more polished products that of course have higher costs. Simultaneously, traditional media companies are starting to dial in content strategies for traditionally creator-led platforms. I think the New York Times has done a fantastic job here. You have the Ezra Klein Show and Ross Douthat, who are sort of like the left and right perspectives. And their shows have become really successful on YouTube, a lot in due to the packaging.

• 13:21John Coogan?

  They understand how to get a good title and thumbnail together. The editing, the production values are really, really high quality. And so those podcasts do very well on YouTube in a way that other shows from legacy media companies, it's been hard for them to break through traditionally, but they certainly have, and it's interesting that it's recent. Another example is the PopCast, John Karamanica, who we hung out with and his co-host Joe. They have really taken that show and made it very internet native, to the point where they produce a ridiculously polished, vertical video for Instagram and social media every

• 14:03John Coogan?

  week to promote the song of the week, and it's in a different location. And of course, there's cost associated with that. But what's really interesting about it is that you can be, you know, a new, like a social media consumer who's blissfully unaware of the entire world that exists behind the NYT paywall, and you can still learn about it.

• 14:22Jordi Hays?

  Their strategy was interesting. So a lot of the, you know, big platforms, the Spotify's, the Snaps, the Metas, the Youtubes, they went, you know, they would build this, you know, basically mini festival on the beach where they'd take over an entire hotel. PopCast went a different route. They rebuilt an authentic dive bar just off of the strip, full of like actors and characters. There was a guy wearing a kilt. And so when you went, and when we went to have a meeting with them, it felt like we were in a French dive bar.

• 14:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, we were like, wow, this actually feels like we're getting a taste of like what the real con would be like.

• 14:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, real can.

• 14:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, it was cool.

• 15:00Jordi Hays?

  So I thought that was really cool.

• 15:01John Coogan?

  Yeah, very, very cool of them to do that.

• 15:04Jordi Hays?

  The other thing that was interesting. France appeared to put Brian Johnson on

• 15:12John Coogan?

  Wait, what happened?

• 15:13Jordi Hays?

  A pack of cigarettes. Pull up this image.

• 15:16John Coogan?

  That does look like Brian Johnson.

• 15:18Jordi Hays?

  Really out of pocket to take, to take an asset.

• 15:23John Coogan?

  It works pretty well, though. Don't die, don't smoke. You know, it's his, it's his message. I think he would approve this.

• 15:29Jordi Hays?

  But I saw, I saw this and I had to take a picture because I was like, is it actually uncanny? He has like a lot of pictures of himself.

• 15:37John Coogan?

  It does look like him.

• 15:38Jordi Hays?

  Down like that, eyes closed.

• 15:40John Coogan?

  Also, this looks like a man being put in a body bag, but at the same time, it looks like just a man who got a getting beautiful nights of sleep, getting tucked in after a nice couple of hot heaters. He ripped a couple darts, had a couple of ears, crushed a couple of cold ones. And now he's ready to get put to bed by someone.

• 15:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this is actually much more tame than some of the other.

• 16:00John Coogan?

  Some of them are gruesome, like so gruesome, showing like the x-rays of cancer patients and like black lungs and stuff. Like this is pretty mild. If you look like this guy after you're smoking a whole pack, like you're doing pretty well. I think it's fine. Anyway, the, the end state of, of this debate, it's, it's interesting. There's a little bit of grass is always greener on the other side going on. The, with independent creators thinking, ah, maybe it'd be better if I was with a larger organization. And then vice versa, with a lot of the folks inside big organizations saying, ah, if I left, I could probably make so much more money. I don't think it's a one size fits all approach here. I think it's more of a sorting process. Some creators will find elegant business models outside of large organizations.

• 16:42John Coogan?

  Like those 80 to 90% EBITDA margins still exist for certain categories, certain.

• 16:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, look at obsession, right? It's like a low margin, highly competitive, but it's hits driven. So you can have one breakout hit and, and you know,

• 16:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:58Jordi Hays?

  Have insane margins.

• 16:59John Coogan?

  Yeah. And then there's also just, there's certain formats and certain shows that will be sticky and then also not scale with cost. Whereas like the Mr. Beast model of doing ever bigger reality TV show style stunts. That probably does scale cost with views over time. But you know, if you're going to be doing criticism or gaming creation or streaming or something, there, there are certain things like Rogan. You tell him, hey, go spend extra 10 million like he doesn't really know what to do with it.

• 17:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's like, it's like how people imagine the SaaS business model, right? Like you can scale revenue without scaling like incremental costs, but it's actually true in the case of.

• 17:38John Coogan?

  And there are some companies in software that have done that. And then there's some where you're just like, wait, really? They're still driving up costs and it's because of their particular market. So I think it's more of this like sorting process. Some creators will find elegant business models outside of traditional organizations. Others will probably wind up leveraging the possibility of going independent into more meaningful contracts within traditional media organizations. I think that might be a trend. There might be some shift in the mindset of traditional media companies where they realize that someone that they were paying as a journalist or as a reporter is now proper talent and could take their audience with them. And so there is a contract renegotiation because they don't want to wind up in the position of like the Vox, BuzzFeed, Vice,

• 18:22John Coogan?

  where all the best talent left and took their audiences with them. And there's probably a meet in the middle where you're not paying them through the nose, but you're paying them more than what they were making just as someone who is like below the line, just like a content creator internally, once they actually break out. And so I think there'll be lots of mistakes along the way, no doubt. Some folks who should be independent will stay too long and vice versa. Some people who would be better suited for being inside a large organization, leveraging all of those capabilities, will be, will go independent and then regret it and maybe go back. But it's increasingly clear that a one size fits all approach, perhaps with a tagline like independent creators are the future.

• 19:05John Coogan?

  I don't think that fits quite, I don't think that quite fits anymore. To each their own. I think everyone sort of needs to find their own way and figure out what's right for them.

• 19:16Jordi Hays?

  David Senna is in the chat. Hello. Hello, Senna.

• 19:19John Coogan?

  Good to see you.

• 19:20Jordi Hays?

  We miss you.

• 19:20John Coogan?

  Founder's podcast and the David Senna Show. Go check it out. He's been on an absolute tear, a generational run. Let me tell you about public.com investing for those who take it seriously. They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries and more with great customer service. You can go on there and

• 19:37Jordi Hays?

  Someone else was saying, uh, doesn't seem like a coincidence that, uh, global markets were in freefall.

• 19:46John Coogan?

  While we were

• 19:46Jordi Hays?

  While we were gone.

• 19:47John Coogan?

  That makes sense. We weren't

• 19:48Jordi Hays?

  So hoping for a swift recovery.

• 19:51John Coogan?

  Yeah. Uh, you can make your own decision on whether or not you're buying the dip, but do it on public.com. Uh, smart glasses are inevitable, but what or who are they for? Says Christopher Mims in the Wall Street Journal. Uh, this is on the back of the new Meta glasses that launched. Chris, Christopher Mims says, "The deluge of smart glasses has begun." Has it? It feels like, I don't know if it's a deluge. It feels more like a, like a, just a trickle or like a steady stream. But maybe I've been following it too closely. I think that's all of my problems with analyzing this category and we'll get into that. Uh, all my criticisms are like very odd technical

• 20:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And it's, and it's, and it's, so Meta has been selling a lot of glasses. The products are, the products are

• 20:37John Coogan?

  Dozens, hundreds?

• 20:38Jordi Hays?

  No, they've been selling. I believe they've already, I believe they're already in the, in the millions of units of not, not, not the

• 20:45John Coogan?

  Hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue?

• 20:47Jordi Hays?

  I believe so. Uh, Ben?

• 20:50John Coogan?

  I think it's getting, I, I, I, I agree with you. I think it's getting material. I think it's getting material.

• 20:54Jordi Hays?

  What I was going to say is that it's for products that are functionally like a great pair of glasses with a camera attached.

• 21:01John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:01Jordi Hays?

  Right? These are not like, uh, I, I don't see a lot of people talking about like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm replacing AirPods entirely with these, even if, even if that is one

• 21:12John Coogan?

  Is that just because?

• 21:13Jordi Hays?

  And that is also with like having Being able to sell through a one of one ad unit on the greatest distribution platform in history.

• 21:23John Coogan?

  But they're going up against stiff competition. Like the Apple Vision Pro is so good that like, you know, it's like we are jobs finished. We have the Apple Vision Pro. Why?

• 21:32Jordi Hays?

  It was so, it was so funny. So I never tried the Apple Vision Pro until this trip. And I asked John, I was like, Hey, can I, can I take him for a spin? And you were like, Oh, it's like kind of a hassle to set up.

• 21:45John Coogan?

  It is.

• 21:45Jordi Hays?

  And

• 21:45John Coogan?

  You have to like put it in guest mode.

• 21:47Jordi Hays?

  John was like, No, I want Jordy to experience this.

• 21:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Jordi Hays?

  And so we go through this whole like hassle of setting it up and I'm like 20 seconds into the dinosaur demo and the flight attendant comes up and is like tapping me on the

• 22:01John Coogan?

  Yeah, like actually getting

• 22:03Jordi Hays?

  Taking me out of virtual reality. And I was like, the audacity.

• 22:06John Coogan?

  And I think the question was just like, are those cool? Or something? It wasn't, it wasn't like, sir, you need to put on your seatbelt or something. It was like.

• 22:14Jordi Hays?

  I was, I was fully immersed.

• 22:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Jordi Hays?

  And, and it, and it, and it completely ruined it for me.

• 22:19John Coogan?

  And what's funny is like the whole pitch for the Apple Vision Pro was like, you don't need to take it off to talk to somebody because it will show the eyes. And no, Tyler's on his way back.

• 22:28Jordi Hays?

  You guys went to France for raising.

• 22:30John Coogan?

  Raising canes. Yes. Raising can. Raising can is good.

• 22:35Jordi Hays?

  Yes. Tyler got left at CDG.

• 22:37John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 22:38Jordi Hays?

  Chiodity.

• 22:39John Coogan?

  But

• 22:40Jordi Hays?

  So I have the, I have the answer for the meta.

• 22:42John Coogan?

  We got T move. T move Tyler.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  I have the answer for the meta glasses.

• 22:50John Coogan?

  Okay. Yeah. How, how are we doing?

• 22:51Speaker 02

  So since 2025, there's been seven million plus sold across OP and Meta. $2 million was just the Ray-Bans.

• 22:59John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 22:59Jordi Hays?

  And Wait, 2 million units?

• 23:01Speaker 02

  2 million units.

• 23:02John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  And that's the estimated gross retail sales was 2.1 to 3 billion estimated.

• 23:06John Coogan?

  That's pretty good.

• 23:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, John, you, the way you were framing it, it was like, yeah, we've sold 7 million. And you're like, $7 million. And it's like, no, it's seven, 7 million. Like it's a lot of units. A lot of units.

• 23:18John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's getting there.

• 23:18Jordi Hays?

  Uh, and, and there's, there's some level, uh, if it wasn't Meta.

• 23:24John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 23:24Jordi Hays?

  We'd be like, wow, this company has like insane product market fit.

• 23:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:29Jordi Hays?

  Selling seven million units of a new

• 23:31John Coogan?

  Yeah, if it was Orang or Whoop or something like that, we'd be very impressed.

• 23:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 23:35John Coogan?

  I, I, I think you're 100% correct.

• 23:36Jordi Hays?

  And it, and it would be like, it could probably be like a standalone.

• 23:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:40Jordi Hays?

  Public company.

• 23:41John Coogan?

  But people would still be slamming it for it, for being like way worse than the Apple Vision Pro. In terms of watching, watching old films. I watched Master and Commander on it. It was great. It's a fantastic movie. Highly recommend. Godfather Part Two, also good. Dunkirk. I, I, I got some, I did some damage on the back hattulog. Uh, anyway, let's go back to Christopher Mims in the Wall Street Journal. He says, at the low end, there's a new line of Meta glasses which start at $299 and play well with vision benefit plans. Interesting. So you can buy them with insurance. Uh, for another $100, there's a pair aimed at fans of Kylie Jenner. We saw these in action and, uh, they looked great. They, they, I, I think reviews are very, very high quality.

• 24:23Jordi Hays?

  If, if I hadn't seen the launch, I wouldn't have noticed that they were Meta glasses at all.

• 24:29John Coogan?

  Yes, yes.

• 24:29Jordi Hays?

  I would have just assumed they were like.

• 24:31John Coogan?

  The, it has this jewel. You can see it. It's that small, uh, white like glint right there. And I was so confused by this, but this is purely a me problem because I assumed that that was a recording light. Because, or, or some sort of display, because if you look at the Meta Ray-Ban displays, you'll see that there's slight grooves in the glass for forming the beams to show you the display. And so I was like, oh, that's a, that's a smart feature. That is there for a functional reason, but it's in fact not. It's purely aesthetic and people who are in the market love this. Uh, I was confused by it, but I think I might be the only person that is confused by it.

• 25:12John Coogan?

  So I, I don't think it's a problem whatsoever. But there's no screen. There is a voice assistant. Um, alphabets, Google and Samsung have teamed up to release their own competing lines due this fall. Uh, from eyewear companies Gentle, Gentle Monster and Warby Parker. For those itching to upgrade, there are glasses with in-lens displays. They, they, they cost more. Meta's is, uh, $800 and specs from Snap is $2,200.

• 25:39John Coogan?

  They are so chunky, they look like something you might see in a Prada ad and never in real life. Silicon Valley has been trying to make smart glasses happen for more than a decade. Remember Google Glass, Facebook and Instagram parent Meta Platforms has captured more than 80% of this market. Not bad. But in 2025, that meant selling just 7 million pairs of glasses. By comparison, the world buys more than 100 million smartwatches a year and more than a billion

• 26:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, what does it say about like the broad investor views on smart glasses overall? If Meta has 80% of this like emerging category that's selling 7 million units and they get like basically zero credit for it?

• 26:19John Coogan?

  I don't know. I just think-

• 26:20Jordi Hays?

  I don't know anybody that's like excited about Meta's business.

• 26:24John Coogan?

  Well, it's not zero marginal cost. And I mean-

• 26:27Jordi Hays?

  I know, but if it has even a 10% chance of becoming like actually a dominant consumer computing platform-

• 26:35John Coogan?

  I don't think that's the case, though. Like, no one would say that the Apple Watch is a dominant computing platform. They would say like, it's a great accessories business for Apple and it's probably worth 50 billion or 100 billion dollars. And that's just not that material, one way or another, to a $2 trillion company or a company that hopes to be worth $2 trillion. And so I think that it can get there. When I see 7 million pairs of glasses compared to 100 million smartwatches, I feel like this is perfect trajectory. Like, this is great.

• 27:06Jordi Hays?

  Do you think that Meta ever makes a free pair of glasses that's ad-supported?

• 27:12John Coogan?

  I don't know. I think that an ads business would actually be much more attractive. When you say, oh, they're making a billion dollars in revenue, that's not 100% margin. I think about, well, what is Threads revenue going to be? And that's going to be much higher margin. Like Threads is probably more exciting to the core business and to the financial outcomes of-

• 27:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I just think, I think if you-

• 27:35John Coogan?

  I understand it's exciting. I like hardware. Like, it's cool. It's just like, it's hard to underwrite to like some, oh, it's moving the needle on cash flow. This is going to pay for another data center.

• 27:43Jordi Hays?

  I would expect to see, just like we saw the ad-supported Kindle, I think we'll see the ad-supported Meta Glasses.

• 27:49John Coogan?

  Are the ads on the inside for wear or on the outside for everyone interacting with it?

• 27:52Jordi Hays?

  For the user. So you're walking on a street- And you walk past a restaurant, it pops up like, you know, get a free matcha.

• 28:00John Coogan?

  I don't like that. I like the other way. I want to be wearing the glasses and I want it to be barking ads at everyone around me while noise cancelling those ads to me. So I don't get, I don't have to hear that.

• 28:10Jordi Hays?

  You become a loud billboard.

• 28:13John Coogan?

  Exactly. I pay for the no ads version, but you didn't pay and you're sitting next to me. So unless you pay, you.

• 28:20Jordi Hays?

  So you would dress up as like one of those guys.

• 28:22John Coogan?

  It's like a smart sign flipper.

• 28:23Jordi Hays?

  You dress up as a guy on the street and you're pretending to do like, what do you do for a living interviews? But then right when you get up, instead of saying, what do you do for a living? You just activate the ads and you just try to bark like four or five.

• 28:35John Coogan?

  What is your intelligent cloud provider? Is it Railway? Which one is it? Let me tell you about Railway. Railway is the all in one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agents to play web apps, servers, databases and more, while Railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring, security. That would be a great ad to bark out of your glasses on command. Anyway, so.

• 28:55John Coogan?

  Apple is reportedly hard at work on its own smart glasses, although it's unclear when they might arrive. German said 2028, 2029, like we're more than a full year away, which is remarkably slow, given that I feel like when Meta or when Apple enters this, they're going to do very well. I don't know. Maybe the Apple aesthetics won't work on in the glasses market, but I feel like they have the design lineage and capabilities.

• 29:23John Coogan?

  Like they make small, they make small devices, like the technology is going to be great and very integrated. And they just have to get the design right, but you can have multiple shots on goal with different styles and frames. So it doesn't seem like it will be hard for them to, you know, add that into your cart when you're getting a watch and an iPad and a phone, even though they might cost a lot. I don't know what the Apple.

• 29:44Jordi Hays?

  Let's get into the skepticism.

• 29:46John Coogan?

  Okay, since the start.

• 29:47Jordi Hays?

  Even hostility.

• 29:48John Coogan?

  The idea of a face worn computer has garnered skepticism, even hostility, which is understandable. When most of us are trying to reduce our time in front of screens, it seems absurd to mount them right in front of our eyeballs. And we should, and why should we be, why should we be okay with everyone we meet pointing internet connected cameras at us? It feels like an assault on what little privacy we have left. So why you carry a flashbang around? Uh, then there's the built in AI, artificial intelligence, let these glasses identify objects in our field of view. That is not a very compelling use case for me.

• 30:25Jordi Hays?

  Hot dog, not hot dog.

• 30:26John Coogan?

  It's just like, I'm looking at a building. What is this building? It's a building. What is this tree? What do you see? It's a tree. I don't know. Do you care if it's a ficus tree or not? It's pretty rare. South African meerkat? How often are you running into an unidentified meerkat? This is not that big of a problem. The bigger one is that you're just able to talk to an AI agent and have it look up things for you. Have it do whatever you want in, on your phone, in your world, on, in your agent. But it's very rare that you're seeing things in the real world. Oh my God, what can is this? What is this? I need to know. It's like, come on, I know what a diet coke is. And then

• 31:01Jordi Hays?

  Just say you're not five years old. Just say you're not five years old.

• 31:05John Coogan?

  But if I know what it is, then I, then I don't need the visual part. I can just say, hey, I, I want some extra information about diet coke. I'm about to drink one. Can you look up the latest aspartame studies?

• 31:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I do, I do use out like I, I, I, I learned about a kind of car from Renault called the Twizy.

• 31:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:23Jordi Hays?

  That is, uh, quite popular. And I did take a picture of

• 31:27John Coogan?

  Sure, sure. I have been doing that too.

• 31:29Jordi Hays?

  And ask chat, what is this? But it's very, it's something that, uh, pull up the Twizy.

• 31:36John Coogan?

  Also, I was playing

• 31:37Jordi Hays?

  This is like potentially the coolest vehicle on the road.

• 31:41John Coogan?

  Yeah. I was playing a video game and I took a photo of the screen when I had to upgrade my character in the role playing game. And I was like, how should I allocate my points?

• 31:51Jordi Hays?

  Look at this.

• 31:51John Coogan?

  It's pretty sweet.

• 31:52Jordi Hays?

  Imagine you and your best friends.

• 31:55John Coogan?

  It's a smart car too. It's not.

• 31:57Jordi Hays?

  Imagine you and your best friends have a fleet of these and you're just like, hey, let's go to the park.

• 32:02John Coogan?

  It's the French dream.

• 32:03Jordi Hays?

  Hey, let's, uh, let's go play some golf. And you pull up to the, you pull up to the golf course.

• 32:08John Coogan?

  And then one person

• 32:09Jordi Hays?

  And you don't even get out of your car. You just drive straight to the first hole.

• 32:12John Coogan?

  They should be able to have like a series of tow hitches where you can create a road train out of them. And then one person drives and the rest can shell. That would be very cool. Yeah, we saw some kids bombing around in some some crazy smart cars, having a great time.

• 32:26Jordi Hays?

  Gold Rock says, business idea, pay people to blast your ads on JBL speakers in crowded places. I think I think you you could there's you could potentially make a run at that before a regulation came came in.

• 32:40John Coogan?

  Shrek it up. Shrek that Twizy, please.

• 32:45John Coogan?

  Then, okay.

• 32:49John Coogan?

  But there's a growing unease with companies sticking generative AI features into any and all products. And having a little AI gin always whispering in our ears seems like a cautionary tale or a Twilight Zone episode. And yet there will be smart glasses and you and I might even choose to wear them. Their technological inevitability, a new consumer tech arms race. For the last and best real estate on our bodies, I envision that someday all glasses should could be smart glasses, said a man who should know. Zaid, who heads the division of Qualcomm, responsible for making the chips that go into the Meta. The Meta, Snap and Samsung smart glasses. Who are they for, though? The problem with most smart glasses is that it remains unclear what exactly they are for.

• 33:30John Coogan?

  Steve Jobs once said that design is as much about what something does as how it looks. It isn't hard to imagine that, were he still alive today, his critique of most of the smart glasses on the market would be scathing. Take the Snap specs. They are a triumph of engineering, squeezing a fighter pilot's helmets. Fighter pilot helmets worth of optics and computing into frames that while not exactly svelte. Or at least at least don't require a chin strap. But for what purpose? Snap chief executive Evan Spiegel said they could be used for live translation. Turn by turn directions, working on the go.

• 34:11Jordi Hays?

  Has anyone made the has anyone made the motorcycle helmet computer?

• 34:16John Coogan?

  I think they do have fairly advanced helmets these days.

• 34:22Jordi Hays?

  I want, I want a personal computer that's shaped as a motorcycle helmet that I can just wear around.

• 34:28John Coogan?

  That would be cool. It'd be like more cyberpunk.

• 34:30Jordi Hays?

  Palmer was teasing a very thin, small pair.

• 34:33John Coogan?

  Of like aviators, right?

• 34:35Jordi Hays?

  Of smart-ish looking glasses.

• 34:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, it looked like they had bolted on to just traditional aviators, which were really cool. Uh, the catch, you have to be seen in public wearing these to get the most out of it. Your friends and colleagues would need them too, and that's assuming the software running on these lightweight computers can live up to the promise. I was thinking about like, yeah, like, should, should you, should you start with glasses that are woefully underpowered on the battery side? Like if you, if you launch a pair of smart glasses and they're 30 minute battery or something like very limited, but they're really light. And so people actually try them and then like, is it better for everyone to complain about how heavy they are? Or how, how, how light they are, but the battery keeps running out?

• 35:22John Coogan?

  Because at least that's a, that's a signal that people are using it to the fullest, if they complain. Like if, if the VR headset's light and people are, oh, it runs out of battery. I gotta plug it in all the time. It's like, okay, well, at least you got to that far. At least you enjoyed it fully. And then you, uh, and then you needed, you know, like working on that extension feels like an easier path.

• 35:43Jordi Hays?

  Senra dropping, uh, nuclear.

• 35:46John Coogan?

  Design is how it works. Steve Jobs. There you go.

• 35:49Jordi Hays?

  Um, yeah, I, yeah, I continue to believe that the biggest market for smart glasses will continue to be, uh, people that need, uh, corrective eyewear, right? Over a billion people, uh, in that market. And if you have to use glasses all day long, you may as well add some smart features. It's a tougher sell for, you know, people that aren't already dependent on glasses.

• 36:16John Coogan?

  Yeah. I do think that they, I mean, in addition to the traction on the sales figures, which are impressive, I'm starting to see more content that's created organically by Meta Glasses creators.

• 36:31Jordi Hays?

  But you know what those people are doing?

• 36:32John Coogan?

  What?

• 36:33Jordi Hays?

  In large part.

• 36:34John Coogan?

  Faking?

• 36:34Jordi Hays?

  They are jailbreaking the glasses to not show that they're recording.

• 36:38John Coogan?

  Whoa, I didn't know that.

• 36:39Jordi Hays?

  Because so, so many of those videos.

• 36:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:41Jordi Hays?

  If somebody just walked up with a camera in your face, they wouldn't get the same reaction. They'd be like, stop filming me.

• 36:47John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:47Jordi Hays?

  But instead they have like a pretty organic.

• 36:49John Coogan?

  So they turn off the light.

• 36:51Jordi Hays?

  They turn off the light. It's very easy to like basically black it out.

• 36:54John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 36:55Jordi Hays?

  Cover it up. I think people have jailbroken them.

• 36:57John Coogan?

  Probably just put like nail polish over it.

• 36:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but there's, there's like actual jailbreaks so that you can basically disable the light.

• 37:03John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 37:03Jordi Hays?

  And so a lot of those videos are just like people, recording people without their permission or understanding.

• 37:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Jordi Hays?

  And then just posting, posting these like.

• 37:14John Coogan?

  Violation of a social contract, but.

• 37:16Jordi Hays?

  Uh, yeah, yeah, no, no, not even just a little bit, like a complete and total violation and.

• 37:24John Coogan?

  Yeah, but just don't go out in public if you don't want to go. Just never go outside. Just never touch grass. Yeah, I don't know. Uh, well, Meta is working on a bunch of other stuff. They're working on artificial intelligence. You may have heard first before we dig into this, let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Um, Zever says they seem to be pretty focused on coding right now. I'm pretty sure this is the largest coding trade, training data generation effort in the world. They have the compute. Thirty to fifty percent of engineers and core teams have been forcibly, forcefully reassigned to data labeling, uh, in the ADO org, agent data optimization.

• 38:08John Coogan?

  Powell McCormick convened the soiree which capped a packed day of meetings across Wall Street to deliver a message Meta's radical plan to become a leader in AI will require vast amounts of capital and her door was open to discuss innovative financing financing structures and partnerships. They might wind up raising billions more to fund the build out of MSL and Meta's AI efforts. One engineer told this reporter that the whole situation feels like the movie The Hunger Games when tributes are randomly selected and then removed from their environment to something completely different. Except at Meta, many more folks are being affected with between three to five from a 10 person team going from building products used by hundreds of millions to giving human feedback

• 38:53John Coogan?

  on AI generated GitHub repos over and over. So a wider impact than in The Hunger Games with less drastic consequences. Yeah, still air conditioned with free snacks, which they are improving apparently. I don't know, it seems like-

• 39:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so what do you, what, so, so, Doc is, we're gonna have Meta code.

• 39:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, it seems like they're trying to have a model that they would sell it on the API or something.

• 39:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and it's just, it's-

• 39:25John Coogan?

  It's, I don't know. It's an entirely new motion. They have done this before, though. They, at one point, they were trying to compete with Google Workspace and have like a Slack competitor effectively, like you could run your company on Facebook Spaces and Facebook Messenger. And I don't think that ever really took off. So it is a new go to market motion, but it is simpler because you don't have to rip everything out. You just port over to this particular endpoint and-

• 39:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's so, it's so interesting. It's so interesting because I, I would have expected, I was expecting Meta to spend enough money to get the Meta AI, you know, chat, GPT Gemini Claude competitor-

• 40:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:08Jordi Hays?

  -to the top of the charts and keep it there.

• 40:10John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:10Jordi Hays?

  Because I expected Zach to think like, hey, if I get people asking questions all day long, I can just target them much better on all my other-

• 40:17John Coogan?

  Oh, you mean the App Store charts, not-

• 40:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so I expected them to go super hard on consumer.

• 40:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:21Jordi Hays?

  They don't have background in enterprise. They bought Manus, but even Manus was like, sort of unclear what they were gonna do over time. Maybe they would integrate it into Ads Manager. But I expected them to just say like, Zach say like, hey, I'm gonna spend a lot of money- And I have billions of users already. I'm gonna do whatever it takes to get a consumer chat app to the top of the charts, keep it there, and over time, just focus on this one thing.

• 40:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:49Jordi Hays?

  And the Meta AI app sitting at seventeen in the App Store right now, you know, not, not, not nothing, but I don't, like, the market is not, is clearly not like, is clearly not sending signals like, hey, we're really excited for you guys to like pivot into enterprise and like,

• 41:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:10Jordi Hays?

  spend hundreds of billions of dollars competing against

• 41:12John Coogan?

  Google.

• 41:13Jordi Hays?

  AWS, Microsoft, Google, OpenAI, Anthropic.

• 41:17John Coogan?

  SpaceX.

• 41:18Jordi Hays?

  You know, all the Chinese labs, SpaceX, like,

• 41:20John Coogan?

  It's a lot.

• 41:21Jordi Hays?

  No, like, this would be an absolutely incredible come-from-behind story.

• 41:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Jordi Hays?

  It would be one for the, for the history books if they can do it.

• 41:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:33Jordi Hays?

  But I think it's reasonable that the market is saying like, no, they're not pricing it in.

• 41:38John Coogan?

  Yeah, certainly. Well, there's other news. Zuckerberg directed Meta to build a prediction markets app, which is a

• 41:46Jordi Hays?

  Mike Isaac with an incredible scoop.

• 41:50John Coogan?

  Wild shift. The experimental app internally called Arena would be independent of Facebook and Instagram. It could compete for attention with Polymarket and Kalshi, the biggest prediction market, says Mike Isaac.

• 42:03Jordi Hays?

  Mike says importantly, the app is currently experimental and will not include using real money.

• 42:08John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 42:09Jordi Hays?

  Though insiders have not fully ruled out a future in which that could happen.

• 42:15John Coogan?

  Do they have a

• 42:15Jordi Hays?

  Fascinating, fascinating, fascinating move. I think, I think sentiment is at near rock bottom.

• 42:24John Coogan?

  Yeah. Walter just had that expose on Polymarket's advertising, and so like the vibes are getting like more

• 42:31Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, so, so sentiment on Poli, on, on prediction markets is like, I don't know if it's at an all time low. I think users actually like generally like

• 42:42John Coogan?

  It's way lower when it was like, oh, we're gonna find out who the next president is. And now it's like, it's a gambling thing for sports. And it's like, the vibe has very much shifted.

• 42:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and I think, I think, yeah, I mean, a lot of people have had like, have benefited from using prediction markets as a data source.

• 42:58John Coogan?

  A lot of people have benefited from sports betting. There's a story about a guy who won $6 million on DraftKings and built a mansion with a bowling alley in it. I'm not kidding. This guy's just like a great poker player. And he's won a $1 million, he's won, he's won over a million dollars in fantasy sports. The Millionaire Maker Fantasy Sports Tournament. He's won it multiple times. He's won it like seven times.

• 43:21Jordi Hays?

  So, so what I was saying is like, prediction markets are, you know, revenues exploding. I think that's a sign that users like the product. I appreciate them as a data source. I always have. But, but sentiment around them broadly is just like bad. And then sentiment around Meta is at almost an all time low, at least in the capital markets, from their employee base, right? Like, people are, you know, very, very unhappy. And so maybe Zuck is just saying like, F it, like, can't get, can't get any, can't, I don't think it can get any worse.

• 44:03John Coogan?

  What's the, okay, here's a steel man on Arena, the prediction markets app from Meta. If it doesn't use real money, there's way less risk of, like, yes, I saw this.

• 44:17Jordi Hays?

  BLT lock issue?

• 44:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, instead of skill issue, it is a lock issue.

• 44:21Jordi Hays?

  I've never heard someone say lock issue. That's so good.

• 44:25John Coogan?

  Anyway, I know, I knew you were gonna look at that. Very funny. Anyway, the Arena bull case. The Arena bull case is if it doesn't use money, you don't run into any of the, any of the controversy around like, oh, someone's gonna spend their last dollar, they're gonna get addicted to this, all this.

• 44:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I totally believe that they'll never turn on the real dollar.

• 44:45John Coogan?

  But you can still, they, so, the steel man is that they have not, they've gamified everything in the Instagram and Facebook orbit, and they actually haven't added pay to play mechanics, really. Like it is all like aura farming. You're farming for like fake currencies, likes, followers, reposts and tags and story views. And there's all these different dopamine hits that you get, which of course there's this discussion around addiction and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's not actually money. And so you could imagine if they can make arena and getting points in the arena as rewarding as getting a thousand likes on an Instagram post or a thousand views on a story post.

• 45:30Jordi Hays?

  People love the status of like making accurate.

• 45:33John Coogan?

  A good call. Yeah, exactly. And so if all of that is integrated and you can go to someone's account, you can see, oh, well, they got this many views. They have this many followers. They they're followed by all these cool people and they also have run it up huge on arena. This is like a high signal account and maybe I should follow it. So I don't know. It could be something that.

• 45:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think I think part of it, I think part of it is like social media is as being is starting to be viewed as something that is as bad as gambling for society, potentially worse, right? Potentially worse than gambling.

• 46:07John Coogan?

  Maybe.

• 46:07Jordi Hays?

  And so part of it's just like, F it. I think users will like this. They'll use it. And and you can imagine like making Instagram already one of the most addictive apps ever created and just adding casino functionality to it.

• 46:24John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 46:25Jordi Hays?

  So you're gambling with your friends. I I I'm not, you know, I think it's this move is like laughable, right?

• 46:33John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 46:33Jordi Hays?

  In many ways, just because it's it's just given the amount of fire that social media is already under. Like, you know, this court case, right? The addiction court cases and that. Now it's like, okay, well, like, we're sorry, you know, we're sorry that like you think our app is like addictive, like, you know, we're going to work this out in the courts. But while we do that, like, we're going to introduce gambling. It's like, it is it is just like a very funny move. And I'm sure they just wish, I'm sure they wanted to like, keep it, you know, under wraps and it's probably an experiment still.

• 47:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:10Jordi Hays?

  But but but, you know, not not a not a move that's like very defensible, right?

• 47:16John Coogan?

  Unless unless they stick with the no money thing. I I'm actually, I'm thinking that that if there's no money involved whatsoever forever, I don't know that I have a problem with it.

• 47:29Jordi Hays?

  It's it's potentially if people get so addicted to the status game of making good predictions that they just stop doing real gambling.

• 47:39John Coogan?

  That could be good. That could be good for society. Wow. I hadn't thought about that.

• 47:43Jordi Hays?

  They're like, I don't care about making real money.

• 47:45John Coogan?

  Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah.

• 47:47Jordi Hays?

  I'm just trying to farm.

• 47:48John Coogan?

  I'm just thinking that like, yes, the the fake currencies, virtual currencies, dopamine hits, like prestiging on Call of Duty is the same XP in Call of Duty. Like, yes, you can get too addicted to it and you can just spend all night playing Call of Duty to try and prestige or level up or whatever. You can be hunting for a platinum trophy on some super hard PlayStation game all night and like, that can be bad. But it's just a way different thing in terms of like, what a crap, what hitting rock bottom looks like when you're not involving real money. Like, you could hit rock bottom being like, wow, I was scrolling Instagram reels four hours a day and or I was playing Call of Duty all night, couldn't was sleepy at work the next day. Like, it can be bad, not good, but it's nowhere near as big as like, I lost my college

• 48:33John Coogan?

  kid, my college fund for my kid. I gambled it away, right? If there's no money, it's just a different conversation. I think you do need to put it in a different bucket.

• 48:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the other thing is, uh, Kalshi, it was reported as doing like over $2 billion of of annualized revenue. Uh, they're growing very quickly. I expect them to be well beyond that. Like, if Zuck came in and he got 100% of the the sort of like online

• 49:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:02Jordi Hays?

  gaming market, it could like maybe move the needle a little bit on, uh, but but but, you know, this isn't like a winner take all market, right? A lot of people like even all the apps are available. They still use their like, you know, some some friend that has a sports book or whatever. So it doesn't really feel like a move that you make when you're you're spending hundreds of billions of dollars on AI. Like, you're betting the company on AI. This seems like it, like, I'm starting to maybe see that, uh, even though Zuck is very good at monetizing applications, that it might just be for the pure love of the game.

• 49:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, Rob Flaherty summed up the pushback. I'm at the child brain poisoning company. I'm at the gambling company. I'm at the combination child brain poisoning and gambling company. A good reference to Pizza Hut and Taco Bell, a famous one. But feedback to the Kylie Jenner Meta glasses has been way, way better. Wow, Silicon Valley finally figured out who controls consumer spending. This is not finally. Meta's been partnering with great celebrities for a really long time. This does not come as a shock to me, but it is the right person to.

• 50:14Jordi Hays?

  And it's so, it's so, uh, it's fascinating because we were trying to estimate like how much Meta spent on this like partnership campaign.

• 50:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Jordi Hays?

  Uh, I had, I was putting it at like somewhere around like 50. I have no information on it.

• 50:30John Coogan?

  Million?

• 50:30Jordi Hays?

  Like 50 million. Yeah, yeah. How much does it cost to get the top influencer?

• 50:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:35Jordi Hays?

  In the entire world to do a campaign like this?

• 50:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:38Jordi Hays?

  And launch a product with you?

• 50:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:40Jordi Hays?

  You know, maybe something like $50 million. Then Alex Heath, Heathenator?

• 50:46John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 50:46Jordi Hays?

  Who we were with this week.

• 50:47John Coogan?

  Scoop athlete.

• 50:47Jordi Hays?

  Scoop athlete.

• 50:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:49Jordi Hays?

  Comes out and scoops that Snap is working on a deal with Robert Downey Jr. To spend $100 million.

• 50:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:57Jordi Hays?

  Uh, potentially for a partnership there, which is, uh, deeply confusing.

• 51:03John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 51:04Jordi Hays?

  Um, uh, for like, you know, a lot of reasons, like the, the, the Kylie Meta.

• 51:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:10Jordi Hays?

  Campaign makes a lot of sense. Kylie is like one of the, like probably the or one of the top, uh, influence influencers on, on Instagram.

• 51:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:19Jordi Hays?

  Right? So it's a deep existing partnership.

• 51:22John Coogan?

  You don't know that this couldn't be, this isn't deep. It could be a super deep integration. We could be looking at like Iron Man four, Snap Spectacles. And the whole movie could revolve around.

• 51:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 51:32John Coogan?

  Iron Man taking off the suit and only using the Snap Spectacles to stop Thanos for the fifth time in a row.

• 51:39Jordi Hays?

  And, and I just don't believe that as cool as Robert Downey Jr. Is. I don't believe that, uh, that.

• 51:48Jordi Hays?

  That people are going to spend $2,195 on these specs because he is in a brand campaign with them.

• 51:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:56Jordi Hays?

  Whereas I do feel like Kylie could potentially drive well more than 50 million of sales.

• 52:01John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 52:01Jordi Hays?

  Of her.

• 52:02John Coogan?

  No, 100%. Kylie informs purchases at a very different rate. Like, I'm a fan of Robert Downey Jr. I like his movies, but it's very hard for me to close the loop from like, okay, he looked good and was in this suit. And so I should go buy that suit. It's just such a.

• 52:18Jordi Hays?

  And the other, the other thing is like, the Meta glasses are a content creation product.

• 52:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:24Jordi Hays?

  That's, that's their primary function.

• 52:26John Coogan?

  And she's a content creator.

• 52:27Jordi Hays?

  Kylie is number one content creator.

• 52:28John Coogan?

  Yeah, but you're, you're completely discounting the possibility that Avengers 12 could be filmed entirely on the Snap Spectacles. What do you think about that?

• 52:38John Coogan?

  It's possible. If it is, it's, it could be worth it. But yes, it's hard to underwrite at $100 million. That's a lot of money for, it's not a lot of money for Meta at 1.5 trillion in market cap. It is a lot of money. 1.4. It is a lot of money for Snap.

• 52:54Jordi Hays?

  Last week's number.

• 52:55John Coogan?

  An $8 billion company.

• 52:57Jordi Hays?

  Last week's price is not today's price. Seven snack, uh, snack, Snap.

• 53:02John Coogan?

  7.2. Not bad. It's only off 5% in the last five days off of this Snap news. It's down 25% over the last month, though.

• 53:13John Coogan?

  It's had a rough go, but I don't know. I like, I like that the product shipped. I like that there's, there's experimentation and competition in, uh, in the wearables market. And I do think that like Christopher Remins is correct that like, there is an inflection point here that, uh, wearables are this new battleground that a lot of companies are, are facing. And there's a lot of opportunity with how slow Apple is moving in the category. You can go and potentially win like, uh, I mean, just, just watching your reaction to, um, to this, uh, the Meta glasses launches, it doesn't seem like you're in the category of this is going to get steamrolled by Apple immediately as soon as they launch it.

• 53:56John Coogan?

  You're like, they might come in and compete, but they are ceding so much territory that that eighty percent maybe goes to fifty percent if Apple really succeeds, but it's not going to be a flip overnight because there's so much brand value, so much style, so many partnerships to the silhouettes of the frame.

• 54:15Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 54:15John Coogan?

  And and so many learnings on the actually like what what people are using these for.

• 54:19Jordi Hays?

  So Snap sitting at seven point one eight billion market cap with a projecting twenty twenty six revenue of six point seven six billion.

• 54:29John Coogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:30Jordi Hays?

  So anyways.

• 54:34John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents, whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows. Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish.

• 54:47Jordi Hays?

  New family of models.

• 54:49John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:49Jordi Hays?

  Uh, previewing today, GPT five point six soul.

• 54:53John Coogan?

  Soul.

• 54:53Jordi Hays?

  Next generation model.

• 54:55John Coogan?

  Named after soul, bro. That's crazy.

• 54:57Jordi Hays?

  I don't know about that one. Um, anyways.

• 55:02John Coogan?

  Do you think that was a hundred million dollar brand deal? It's like Robert Downey Jr. No, it's named after the celestial bodies, soul.

• 55:11Jordi Hays?

  Terra and Luna.

• 55:13John Coogan?

  Cool.

• 55:14Jordi Hays?

  Um, and putting up.

• 55:16John Coogan?

  And do they go in size? Like, because I would assume soul is the biggest, then Terra is the medium, and then Luna's the smallest in terms of the model size.

• 55:26Jordi Hays?

  Uh, let me pull. Let me pull it up.

• 55:30John Coogan?

  It's going to take a second for people to learn the new, uh, the new language there. I I have enjoyed the, uh, the dropdown in the chat GPT app is just like, just like, how much reasoning do you want? Instant, medium, high, extra high, or pro? And I don't really think of them as separate models now, and I've been a fan of that, like, just use the right tool for the job behind the scenes. Um, anyway. We can dig into that.

• 55:55Jordi Hays?

  And of course, by US government directive, access is limited to only 20 preapproved companies.

• 56:03John Coogan?

  20, that's so small.

• 56:05Jordi Hays?

  Which is brutal because our very own Dan Shipper will not be able to do a vibe check on it, at least.

• 56:11John Coogan?

  He's got to get access soon. But a lot of this comes on the back of the distill gate that's happening. Anthropic says Alibaba has distilled Claude many, many times. And I saw a chart of the amount of tokens that are getting resold off the back of that API. And it is staggering. It's a true, somebody was like, they professionalized fraud, which seems accurate. And so having really tight control, it makes sense in the distilling world. It's still very unfortunate.

• 56:41Jordi Hays?

  To go back to your other question, so Sol is the frontier model. Terra is a balanced model for efficient, everyday work. And then Luna is a fast and affordable model for high volume work.

• 56:53John Coogan?

  Okay, cool.

• 56:54Jordi Hays?

  You had it right.

• 56:55John Coogan?

  Well, Rockstar Energy Drink founder, Russ Savage, what a name.

• 57:00Jordi Hays?

  What a name.

• 57:00John Coogan?

  He put five homes on the market for a combined total of just shy of $300 million in hopes of attracting newly rich buyers right after the SpaceX IPO. He says, people got liquidity and you are my excellent liquidity.

• 57:18John Coogan?

  You are my excellent liquidity, buy my incredible properties. So Rockstar Energy Drink founder, creator and real estate investor is putting five homes he owns in Los Angeles, Aspen, Park City on the market for a combined total of $297 million. He's betting that a wave of newly rich buyers will be looking for luxury homes. We're entering a new stratosphere of top end wealth where there's no limit, said Savage, who's been buying, renovating and selling homes across the country for a decade. Where are they going to buy properties? They're going to want a ski house and they're going to want a house in the sun. Savage is asking 85 million for a seven bedroom home on Aspen's Red Mountain in Los Angeles. He's listing two estates, one for 85 million, another for 34 million. Park City, he's listing properties for 55 million and 30

• 58:03John Coogan?

  Eight million, where is he gonna live? Some he's listed before, but others he's putting on the market for the first time since buying them. Paul Benson, one of Savage's listing agents, is already seeing the impact of these anticipated IPOs across the markets he works in, which includes San Francisco and Seattle. People employed by SpaceX or OpenAI or Anthropic are being approached by banks and funds with upfront investment cash, aiming to lock in early connections with these soon to be ultra wealthy clients. Because newer construction luxury homes have already been selling well, this will put further strain on supply, and I believe it will drive up prices, he says. Savage is also betting on the economy, believing it will be strengthened by peace deals.

• 58:43John Coogan?

  He's long America, falling interest rates, and a stock market that continues to hit record highs. Savage, 56, sold his beverage brand to PepsiCo for around 4.7 billion in 2020 and lives in Florida. He started investing in high end real estate after he founded Rockstar Energy in 2001. He said, buying luxury homes, redoing them and living in them until he decides to move somewhere else. He was formerly, he was formerly named Russ Weiner, but took the name Savage in honor of his father, political commentator, Michael Savage?

• 59:21Jordi Hays?

  Wait, what do you mean took the name?

• 59:23John Coogan?

  Wait.

• 59:23Jordi Hays?

  In honor of his father?

• 59:26John Coogan?

  Michael Savage, Michael Allen Weiner, born 1942, is known by his professional name, Michael Savage. He's an American author, political commentator, and activist, former radio host. He's best known as the host of the Savage Nation, a nationally syndicated talk show that aired on the talk radio network across the United States until 2021, was the second most listened to radio talk show in the country with an audience of over 20 million listeners. Wow, he's, he's sold books.

• 59:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Dr. Michael Savage has a PhD in nutrition science.

• 1:00:01John Coogan?

  He's conservative. He has two children. He's still alive and his son is Russell Golden Cloud Weiner, who now goes by Russ Savage. That is crazy. What an insane. So his name now is Russ Golden Cloud Savage. He really created a golden cloud with his company. He started Rockstar in 2001. What is this?

• 1:00:28Jordi Hays?

  Golden Packaging.

• 1:00:29John Coogan?

  Rockstar Energy Drinks. Yeah, it was golden. It was golden, or it is. He's also the founder and CEO of his own company. He was, oh, he just barely snuck in the Forbes list of 500 richest Americans. He's number 494 with an estimated net worth of $3.4 billion. In 2025, his estimated worth, net worth is $5 billion. He's done fantastically. This is very interesting. He bought the West Hollywood home of basketball player Carlos Boozer for $10 million. Listed another home. He lives in Delray Beach. Fascinating. Well, good luck to him. Hopefully, if you have some SpaceX liquidity, you can go pick one of these up. They all look fantastic and he's certainly done a great job.

• 1:01:12Jordi Hays?

  Let's work on getting Russ on the show. I would say Nick.

• 1:01:16John Coogan?

  He's an absolute savage.

• 1:01:16Jordi Hays?

  I would say Nick, work on it, but somebody is not in the Ultra Dome today.

• 1:01:22John Coogan?

  If you, if you're trying to build luxury properties, you got to know that there's going to be a small group of hungry savages. I'm going after you. Cursers, $60 billion SpaceX deal. It prices off of the seven-day weighted average of the SpaceX closing price before close. The lower the SpaceX stock, the more SpaceX for cursor holders. The deal was announced with SpaceX at $211 per share. Now it's at $155, but very stable today at $152.

• 1:01:57John Coogan?

  Cursor holders are rooting for the stock to keep falling until close somewhat. I can't imagine that they're rooting for it to go down all that much, but that is an interesting dynamic that's playing out. Also SpaceX is eyeing a bond sale for the history books and the Financial Times doesn't like it. Allianz, the insurer, they're sounding the alarm. SpaceX's green light for $25 billion bond sale is a clear sign of bubble territory. I mean, at the same time, they got, what, $80 billion in cash on the balance sheet at this point. Seems like a reasonable debt to equity ratio, but let's hear the bear take from Allianz.

• 1:02:41John Coogan?

  SpaceX's decision to launch a $25 billion bond sale shortly after raising $86 billion in a record-breaking IPO is a clear sign that the markets are entering bubble territory. Uh oh. The investment chief at insurance group Allianz has warned, "Big investors have grown increasingly nervous the company's rushing to raise money in a flurry of big equity and bond deals seizing on record-high stock prices and credit spreads, close to the tightest in decades, could signal a top in frothy markets. SpaceX raising debt so soon after a blockbuster equity issuance was a good example of markets shifting from healthy boom, a stretched boom, into bubble territory," said the chief investment officer at Allianz, which manages $800 billion of assets.

• 1:03:21Jordi Hays?

  Elon is hoovering up

• 1:03:25John Coogan?

  He really is.

• 1:03:26Jordi Hays?

  cash. Someone else was saying, "How is X money paying a 6% yield?" You know, people have learned to ask, "Where's the yield coming from?" But of course, X.com, the space company,

• 1:03:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Jordi Hays?

  whatever cash that they have deposited in X money,

• 1:03:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Jordi Hays?

  I'm sure they're able to use that to

• 1:03:47John Coogan?

  Build data centers.

• 1:03:48Jordi Hays?

  build infrastructure.

• 1:03:49John Coogan?

  Yeah. No, no, I mean, that that is the thesis there. And I I'd be very interested. They they said it's up to ten million dollars is insured, six percent yield that's higher than Cash App and many of the other.

• 1:04:04Jordi Hays?

  Wait, you're you confirm that up to ten million dollars?

• 1:04:07John Coogan?

  This was in the this was in the tweet announcing it. I don't know exactly what level of insurance.

• 1:04:11Jordi Hays?

  So they actually are are this is not just like.

• 1:04:14John Coogan?

  They said insured. I didn't see FDIC insured.

• 1:04:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but but but that that signals that they're not viewing this as like, oh, this is just like a perk to get consumers.

• 1:04:25John Coogan?

  Yeah, oh, put in a thousand bucks. It's like, no, like, random investors can be like, wait, I'm earning four percent in my bond account with my bank. I should move this over to X money and just get the six percent. There's a lot of yield hunters and credit card points maxers who just are always hunting for, oh, this this account gives me a good rate of return. And, you know, where is the yield coming from? It's a different equation when you have a hundred billion dollars on the balance sheet. Seems like you can make all the discussions over bubble territory or overvalued, but at the same time, like, you're at the top of the cap table of a really well capitalized company. And so you're probably going to get that that yield. At the same time,

• 1:05:05John Coogan?

  SpaceX is going to potentially raise billions of dollars through this if for for every hundred people that put in ten million dollars and clip that six percent coupon, they get a billion dollars. So could you imagine a thousand people signing up for that, putting ten million in, getting six percent? And then that's a ten billion dollar incremental raise for SpaceX. That seems pretty doable. That doesn't seem like crazy math to me. It's a very different go direct strategy. We've seen other hyperscalers issue corporate debt at those rates, below those rates, around those rates. So it doesn't seem crazy. It's just interesting that it's going through this direct channel for the first time as opposed to the more traditional Wall Street path. But

• 1:05:50John Coogan?

  the Wall Street path, they're complaining. So go direct, I guess. That's the strategy. Anyway.

• 1:05:55Jordi Hays?

  Minute Moolah says, are we done talking about AI restrictions? I feel that's I feel like that's low key a big deal.

• 1:06:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, we have some we have some pieces in here about it. We'll we'll go through this. First, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI, their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches.

• 1:06:13John Coogan?

  There's more data center backlash, data centers, how do they work? Theo Von says, "Nobody wants a data center, dude." And the people that want them to me, they seem kind of evil. Nobody wants this. One of these companies is going to own all this information. He had some very funny takes about-

• 1:06:27Jordi Hays?

  He said emotional credit score.

• 1:06:29John Coogan?

  Emotional credit score would be weird. Yes, the data center issue needs to be messaged much more clearly and-

• 1:06:37Jordi Hays?

  And I think-

• 1:06:38John Coogan?

  There's such a wide gap between the water and the power-

• 1:06:40Jordi Hays?

  I'm assuming he starts this way, but then he says, "I'm going to be switching to distributing my podcasts on CD."

• 1:06:47John Coogan?

  That's such a bad counter take, because truly, like, the data centers that are required to power the YouTube and podcast stream, it's like, so, so small compared to what AI is doing in terms of data center construction and the power requirements and the build-out requirements. I mean, like, you fire off one AI agent and you're using, like, it's equivalent to YouTube for, like, 10 years, probably. But yes, you know, the internet powers lots of things, but people have to understand the benefits and the value of these things unless, otherwise, they're just like, "Why? Why don't we just use the data centers we have? Why do we need new ones?" And then they also need to be constructed

• 1:07:29John Coogan?

  in remote locations, away from housing, quietly, with clean energy, with, you know, not with the closed-loop water system. Like, there's a bunch of boxes that, if you check them, people will be okay with it. But it's certainly slow to actually build up the narrative. Amir over at The Information has a little bit of a narrative violation. AI data centers apparently are godsend for some communities and produce a lot of jobs. Union leaders are saying they're great. For instance, three large Wisconsin data center campuses, Microsoft, Meta, and Oracle are building, they're supporting almost 10,000 jobs during the building phase, which began in 2020 and lasted through 2028, according to Mandala Partners. When they

• 1:08:12John Coogan?

  are fully operational, the facilities will support 6,000 permanent jobs. Nearly a third will be in-house, highly skilled roles, including 770 technicians managing- Critical mechanical and electrical systems and 700 data center technicians. The rest are in the supplier network that provides these facilities. And meanwhile, in West Memphis, Mayor Marco McLendon recently told me it was, quote, "A stagnant city before Google broke ground last year on a data center just outside its boundaries." The company's investments are now making it easier to recruit other businesses in the city. And also figuring out the correct tax strategy for the data centers seems to be the next sort of domino to fall. Because Virginia has benefited a lot from the data center build out from AWS.

• 1:08:58John Coogan?

  And I believe property taxes are like unnaturally low for Virginian residences. Because the government balanced budget, the government budget is balanced towards getting revenue from from the data center build out. That's happened in Virginia. And so they haven't been so such a big deal. Anyway, we should move on to other stuff in AI bans, what's going on. There's a Wall Street Journal article we can read through here. OpenAI limits access to new models citing government security concerns. Company says White House review of AI releases shouldn't become long term default. Ban on Mythos model remains.

• 1:09:40John Coogan?

  OpenAI said it's limiting access to its newest artificial intelligence models after discussions with the Trump administration. But warned that the recent trend of the White House restricting industry activity on national security grounds on a case by case basis shouldn't become the norm. The maker of ChatGPT, yeah, I saw a lot of like safety people being like, this is the worst of both worlds. It's not some sort of like broad reaching apply, you know, just like the rule exists and then everyone can easily comply. It's like the highest touch government intervention and it makes the government have much more power over AI, which is something the safety folks, I think, at least the ones that I saw talking about this, were not a fan of.

• 1:10:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's also just like, you know, there's the new, it's GLM 5.2.

• 1:10:25John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:10:25Jordi Hays?

  That that people are loving.

• 1:10:26John Coogan?

  Someone was talking about how they didn't love it in the chat. I don't know what the reviews are. We'll have to talk.

• 1:10:30Jordi Hays?

  I don't know. In general, there's been a lot of excitement. A lot of people saying like, hey, I could use this as a daily driver.

• 1:10:35John Coogan?

  And all the lab leaders have said, open source is like six months behind. And so now we're like approaching six months past like the last jump in paradigm. And like massive cyber capabilities. So those cyber capabilities are coming to fruition in the open source world. The, there's an interesting dynamic between the risk of like bio stuff and cyber stuff. So if you have a model that can hack a system, it can usually patch that system for that hack in far less than six months. Like probably in like an hour. It can, it can see, oh, there's a, there's a, there's a exploit here. And we shipped the code, merged it in, and now that exploit is closed.

• 1:11:18John Coogan?

  And so the gap between like finding, like you create the hack machine 9000. You can hack everything, but instead you use it for legal reasons, for economic reasons to patch all the systems. That's great. The, the problem that I'm worried about now is if there is a, if there is a world where building the, the counter, building the counter, like the good version of something, takes longer than six months. So the example I'll give is, is in bio. So let's say that you have a next generation model. It's really good at finding viruses that if created would wipe out a ton of people.

• 1:11:59John Coogan?

  It's also really good at, at building early warning detection systems. And, you know, counteractive, like take this pill and you'll no longer, you know, be susceptible to that deadly virus that is now possible. That's fine. As long as you continue to roll out the bio security initiatives first, you should be good. Because by the time the open source hacker, nefarious actor, state actors get access to the, the bioweapon 9000, you've already patched your society so that you have bio risk, security, early detection, all the different medicines that you need to fight back.

• 1:12:37John Coogan?

  But if manufacturing all of that and actually deploying the bio security, the bio risk, the, the, the, like the good version takes a year.

• 1:12:48John Coogan?

  But the frontier is only six months behind. You could wind up in a situation where manufacturing the virus is much shorter than manufacturing the antivirus. Now, I don't know exactly how all of that works, if that's real, what the level of risk is there, but that's that's maybe a unique problem, especially if it's a situation where you need to make a lot of the antivirus, and you only need to make like a small amount of the virus. And so, I don't know. I think

• 1:13:17Jordi Hays?

  Well, and is that is that not exactly how?

• 1:13:20John Coogan?

  It's possible. I don't know. We'll see. We'll need to talk to more people that understand biosecurity risk and and see where this goes. It's also just harder to like to create bioweapons. It's less like like you can, you know, with a with an advance with a sufficiently advanced model, you can you can hack into a, you know, corporate database from your laptop. You do need a something like a bio lab, which is not nearly as distributed as laptops, which everyone has. So

• 1:13:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but but it feels like every six months, they discover like some like unauthorized bio lab somewhere in the US.

• 1:13:57John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:13:58Jordi Hays?

  That, you know, has a bunch of existing viruses. So very concerning.

• 1:14:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, very risky. Well, let's go back to the OpenAI news. OpenAI followed a similar process with versions of GPT 5.5, like cyber, which demonstrated an ability to discover vulnerabilities in software that could be used in cyber attacks. The similar capabilities of Anthropic's Mythos models prompted the White House to increase its oversight of the industry and overhaul its light touch approach to AI. There was, of course, that news that the NSA commented that Mythos was able to hack into a bunch of their systems. That was during a red teaming exercise. Like,

• 1:14:36John Coogan?

  like, so they had a red team deliberately try to hack the systems, probably from within the network to some degree. Still scary, but not some unintended behavior, which I think is good news. The unprecedented intervention led Anthropic to halt all access to comply with a new rule. Anthropic had previously worked with the administration on a limited rollout of an earlier version of Mythos. And OpenAI said it hoped to make 5.6 generally available in the coming weeks and that the government's current approval process represents a transition period while President Trump's recent executive order on model oversight is implemented. Quote, "We don't believe this kind of government access process should become the long-term default. It keeps the best tools from users, developers, enterprises, cyber defenders, and global

• 1:15:21John Coogan?

  partners who need them," the company said in a blog post. "We are taking the short-term step because we believe it is the strongest path to broader availability." The latest anthropic models have been shut down for two weeks. There was some move in prediction markets, which controversial but very useful sometimes. It seems like Fable might be coming back. The market's like jumping all over the place. So someone seemingly knows something, but it does seem like all of these delays are being worked through actively, especially as the open source frontier advances. It feels less and less reasonable to keep closed source models locked away.

• 1:16:00Jordi Hays?

  Well, why is the open source model frontier advancing? Is because the models are widely available.

• 1:16:06John Coogan?

  Well, is that what's going on?

• 1:16:09Jordi Hays?

  Distillation. Like Minute in the chat says, "I think we're headed toward a future where frontier models will just be completely cut off from everyone else, national security asset treatment, no distillation from anyone allowed." Like, if you make these models available, like clearly, if you make the models available through everyday consumer subscriptions, there will be groups that will create networks of, you know, thousands of accounts and distill the models. And then you're giving away this like advanced capability. Now, whether or not that causes like, you know, these sort of like doomsday scenarios, you know, not entirely clear, but it's clear that.

• 1:16:54Jordi Hays?

  The open source, you know, frontier will just, you know, continue to lag the the closed source frontier until the distillation problem is solved.

• 1:17:05John Coogan?

  Yeah, I was listening to Ian Bremmer on the Foreign Policy Podcast. He just wrote a piece about

• 1:17:12Jordi Hays?

  Breminator?

• 1:17:13John Coogan?

  The Breminator. We gotta have him on. He's fantastic. But he was pointing out a problem with the the sort of like individually targeted regulation of AI like like Besant brought all the bankers together because America is very strong in the banking sector to address AI, but that doesn't include infrastructure because our our global infrastructure is not particularly like we don't have the largest infrastructure companies in the world.

• 1:17:45Jordi Hays?

  Do you think

• 1:17:45John Coogan?

  And so we're very like piecemeal on this.

• 1:17:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, do you think

• 1:17:47John Coogan?

  And he says that like it's he's calling for much more integration between what's happening at commerce and what's happening in the finance world and then also what's happening in in all sorts of

• 1:17:55Jordi Hays?

  You think Meta's stock would pop if Zuck could go get a preliminary ban?

• 1:17:59John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:00Jordi Hays?

  On some of their new models?

• 1:18:02John Coogan?

  The ore farm of the ban, it does seem to be working. It's too powerful. You gotta ban the next next version of Diet Coke.

• 1:18:10Jordi Hays?

  Says, I love these boys only episodes. Classic TBPN. So do we.

• 1:18:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Jordi Hays?

  So do we. We might. We might need to run a no no interview week.

• 1:18:21John Coogan?

  That'd be good.

• 1:18:23Jordi Hays?

  An interview cleanse.

• 1:18:24John Coogan?

  Yeah, we could do that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know where it goes. It's tough because, yeah, like some of that, some of those problems that you identified about the advancing open source frontier mass distillation, that doesn't seem like you can there's a regulatory solution for it that maintains open access. Like, that's the trick. Is it like?

• 1:18:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's a scenario where it's, there's only, you know, you have to be only the largest, most trustworthy companies in the world. And that feels like a really dark.

• 1:18:57John Coogan?

  You know, who did, you know, who did actually push back in an interesting way was Bill Gurley? And he, I mean, he was taking aggressive shots, but one, one take he had that was somewhat resonant with me was he said, you know, if these models are so smart, can't they detect distillation attacks? And so there, there is a world where the, the closed source frontier advances to a point where you can mitigate distillation attacks much more effectively and be, instead of a whitelist, you have a ban list. And so you're banning organizations that are trying to distill, but the models are still pretty much widely available. You're still playing whack a mole constantly, but you have AGI in your, doing the whack a mole.

• 1:19:42John Coogan?

  And so you have, you know, the, the best possible model going around and understanding, wait, that's a weird behavior. Why is that person asking for that, for those tokens over and over and over again? Let's ban them. And maybe the bans are happening all the time on an individual basis and the ban list is huge, but the allow list is generally available. And so most companies and individuals can just sign up. That would be an interesting outcome.

• 1:20:06Jordi Hays?

  Well, I think we should switch gears and go through the new SoftBank.

• 1:20:12John Coogan?

  Yes, a lot of people have been talking about this for a long time. Masa kind of tied it up in a bow for everyone. Where do we get started with Masayoshi Son from SoftBank? He, he says that the true source of value is the golden egg factory inside.

• 1:20:33Jordi Hays?

  Let's pull up the deck though, and just go right from the beginning. We'll go through the whole thing.

• 1:20:37John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:20:37Jordi Hays?

  Let's get it up on the big board.

• 1:20:39John Coogan?

  Group dot SoftBank dot, group dot SoftBank? They have a TLD? What? That's a cool TLD. They just own dot SoftBank?

• 1:20:51John Coogan?

  Can you just go to www dot SoftBank?

• 1:20:55Jordi Hays?

  We are getting it up on the big board.

• 1:20:57John Coogan?

  There. ASI, artificial super intelligence, JPY one quadrillion. What is SBG? South Bank Group. Fifty year life plan. Twenties, get acknowledged.

• 1:21:10Jordi Hays?

  You gotta, you gotta, you gotta wait.

• 1:21:12John Coogan?

  The team's pulling it up.

• 1:21:12Jordi Hays?

  You gotta wait for.

• 1:21:14John Coogan?

  They're working on it. They're working on it. They'll get there.

• 1:21:19John Coogan?

  Oh, we updated his fifty year life plan.

• 1:21:21Jordi Hays?

  Here we go.

• 1:21:22John Coogan?

  Pull it up. Yeah, this is good.

• 1:21:23Jordi Hays?

  Done, done.

• 1:21:24John Coogan?

  Next slide. Next slide.

• 1:21:26Jordi Hays?

  All right, so Ben, if you could read through this while we get set up.

• 1:21:31John Coogan?

  No, don't. Go to the next one. ASI, artificial super intelligence is happening, baby. You got, you got the.

• 1:21:39Jordi Hays?

  And I don't, so, so notably, I think that this looks like, this doesn't necessarily look like it was generated. I think this, I think this is a vintage.

• 1:21:49John Coogan?

  Vintage.

• 1:21:50Jordi Hays?

  This is a vintage asset.

• 1:21:51John Coogan?

  This is shutter stock, right?

• 1:21:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this is shutter stock. I think he's trying to say like, hey, the image models are good, but they're not image super intelligence.

• 1:21:59John Coogan?

  Also, that's like five thousand neurons. Like that would do absolutely nothing. That's like worse than like a fly brain, if you actually count the connections. Anyway.

• 1:22:07Jordi Hays?

  Some people have said that I have five thousand.

• 1:22:10John Coogan?

  JPY one quadrillion. What's the plan to get to one quad? One trillion is out. We're going to quads. That's the next slide. Anybody? There we go. Keep going.

• 1:22:21Jordi Hays?

  Keep going.

• 1:22:22John Coogan?

  What is SBG? Keep going. I want to see the fifty year life plan.

• 1:22:25Jordi Hays?

  What is?

• 1:22:25John Coogan?

  Get acknowledged. Finance war chest. Forties, take on a challenge.

• 1:22:32Jordi Hays?

  What is, what is the Wikipedia version? Where it's like rise to power?

• 1:22:36John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:22:37Jordi Hays?

  And like, you know, like.

• 1:22:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:39Jordi Hays?

  Controversy.

• 1:22:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:40Jordi Hays?

  Downfall. Expansion of power. Anyways, okay, so thirty, he's getting his finance war chest.

• 1:22:46John Coogan?

  It's early life, rise to power.

• 1:22:48Jordi Hays?

  He didn't even decide to take.

• 1:22:49John Coogan?

  Expansion of power, regime, coup, trial and execution.

• 1:22:53Jordi Hays?

  So note, notice here, he didn't even take on a challenge until his forties.

• 1:22:58John Coogan?

  Wow. It's never too late. But he did finance a war chest during his thirties, so.

• 1:23:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, but that wasn't a challenge for him.

• 1:23:05John Coogan?

  I like that sixties, hand over business.

• 1:23:08Jordi Hays?

  Fifties, just fully complete the business.

• 1:23:10John Coogan?

  Complete. Job's finished.

• 1:23:11Jordi Hays?

  Complete. The job was finished. Okay, but he hands it over.

• 1:23:15John Coogan?

  Hands it over to the next generation, but then go to the next slide. Plot twist.

• 1:23:19Jordi Hays?

  Sixty.

• 1:23:21John Coogan?

  It's the sixty year life plan. He's not handing it over to the next generation. He is continuing at the reins. Next slide. He wants to realize ASI.

• 1:23:32Jordi Hays?

  He's like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not done yet.

• 1:23:35John Coogan?

  The real challenge begins.

• 1:23:37Jordi Hays?

  ASI platform provider, the real challenge begins.

• 1:23:40John Coogan?

  Again, not AI generated. This is shutter stock. He knows it. He goes into PowerPoint manually, picks an image.

• 1:23:49Jordi Hays?

  He's trying to send a signal to the OpenAI team that, that there's still room for improvement.

• 1:23:54John Coogan?

  Constrain on humanities, evolution, intelligence and execution, healthcare, education, research, caregiving, cybersecurity, all good markets that make sense. What's the next thirty year vision? Bring the brain computer to life.

• 1:24:07Jordi Hays?

  This is from June twenty fifth, twenty ten.

• 1:24:10John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:24:11Jordi Hays?

  So.

• 1:24:12John Coogan?

  Coexistence with intelligence.

• 1:24:14Jordi Hays?

  Sixteen years ago.

• 1:24:15John Coogan?

  Yeah, he's getting there. ASI brain computer, physical ASI intelligent robots. He basically nailed it. We got the brain computer. AI that answers, AI is ax.

• 1:24:26Jordi Hays?

  Workflow automation.

• 1:24:27John Coogan?

  This is way more.

• 1:24:29Jordi Hays?

  I'm starting to kind of feel like some of this is AI generated. So you can kind of see him getting a little bit more AGI pilled as the deck goes on.

• 1:24:37John Coogan?

  But he does need, uh, he does need a huge amount of credit for, for calling the shot on ASI like a decade before AI twenty twenty seven. Everyone's like, oh, they nailed it. The, you, uh, there's going to be government conflict in mid twenty twenty six. That was like a twelve month prediction. This guy was calling a decade.

• 1:24:53Jordi Hays?

  You kind of hyperstitioned it.

• 1:24:54John Coogan?

  He did, potentially.

• 1:24:55Jordi Hays?

  That's the manifestation.

• 1:24:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:57Jordi Hays?

  You were saying this is manifestation for the bay.

• 1:25:00John Coogan?

  Humans will not be replaced. They will evolve through ASI. Okay. Physical AI, robots for high risk work, rescue from disasters, solve labor shortages. They have the AI model, OpenAI, have that semiconductor arm.

• 1:25:17John Coogan?

  AI infrastructure and robot, just robot is the next one. New intelligence. We need to skip to the golden goose. That's the highlight of the slide. Oh, so they're doing 10 gigawatt Ohio project, five gigawatts in France, robot. Yes, keep going, a little bit more, a little bit more, and then wait here. Keep going, one more, one more. This one. Oh, the, the text actually looks pretty good on this, on this screen. On my screen, it's really hard to read. But this is hilarious, just the level of like, like highlight, control you underscore that. It's like, in terms of like, design, like, and, and putting the white text over the white robot. Very edgy design consideration.

• 1:26:01Jordi Hays?

  No, he, he, you know, the, the slides are funny because it's such a big company. And they seem like relatively unsophisticated, but they work. They communicate ideas.

• 1:26:16John Coogan?

  They do.

• 1:26:16Jordi Hays?

  In a simple way.

• 1:26:17John Coogan?

  Okay, let's keep going. I want to get to the golden goose. Oh yeah, here we go. Okay. So he's planning for a quadrillion of value or something like that. Okay.

• 1:26:29Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so yeah, 16 years ago.

• 1:26:32John Coogan?

  Equity of value of holdings.

• 1:26:34Jordi Hays?

  Five trillion.

• 1:26:37John Coogan?

  The golden goose, five golden eggs. This is such a great, the net debt shareholder value is three eggs. It's such a good metaphor. Goose was not valued. See, this is something that people have been saying. People have been saying, this has been like a VC talking point on the podcast circuit for a long time. It's nice to see Maso like, put it out there, but like, Anons have been tweeting this for a long.

• 1:27:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, well, and a lot of VCs realize that the goose was not valued either.

• 1:27:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:07Jordi Hays?

  And so they, they started raising, you know, taking, selling secondary.

• 1:27:10John Coogan?

  It was a lot of LP debt, a lot of decks were saying goose was not valued.

• 1:27:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so now LPs are saying, hey, I'll buy some of the management company.

• 1:27:17John Coogan?

  It was kind of like a meme in Silicon Valley. People would just say, oh.

• 1:27:19Jordi Hays?

  Goose was not valued.

• 1:27:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, we're, we're so early, goose was not valued.

• 1:27:24Jordi Hays?

  Or, yeah, you know, you'd have an exit in your portfolio. And people were like, how was it? You'd be like, it was good, but goose was not valued.

• 1:27:32John Coogan?

  Goose was not valued. Goose do not lay eggs. Eggs do not lay eggs. That's the next slide. Eggs do not lay eggs. It was the goose that created the value.

• 1:27:45Jordi Hays?

  Which is

• 1:27:47Jordi Hays?

  which is hard to deny.

• 1:27:50John Coogan?

  Do we have a clock on the board?

• 1:27:52Jordi Hays?

  No, we gotta get a, we gotta get a goose. We gotta, we gotta other.

• 1:27:57John Coogan?

  Brutal.

• 1:27:57Jordi Hays?

  We got the rest of the farm, but we gotta get goose just up there.

• 1:28:00John Coogan?

  Shareholder value. Fifteen acts in sixteen years, twenty-five acts in sixteen years. They're at seventy-four trillion. What matters is not the eggs. It is the goose itself.

• 1:28:12Jordi Hays?

  The power to keep laying eggs.

• 1:28:14John Coogan?

  To keep laying eggs. The eggs. Over the next sixteen years, he's going to one quad.

• 1:28:20Jordi Hays?

  I actually, what I actually want to get this like, like as a print.

• 1:28:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:26Jordi Hays?

  To put up, maybe not in my home, but maybe in the garage.

• 1:28:29John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:28:30Jordi Hays?

  Because like the statement, what matters is not the eggs. It is the goose itself. The power to keep laying eggs. Like if you're going, you're waking up in the morning, you go to get in your car and you just see that as a reminder that like, it's not about like, like the value is in yourself, right? The power to keep laying eggs, right?

• 1:28:48John Coogan?

  Sort of like Dave Goddard's Jocka willing.

• 1:28:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, having that goose mentality to start the day.

• 1:28:54John Coogan?

  Goose maxing.

• 1:28:54Jordi Hays?

  Priceless.

• 1:28:55John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:28:56Jordi Hays?

  Priceless.

• 1:28:56John Coogan?

  The true, the true source of value.

• 1:28:59Jordi Hays?

  I love, I love sprinkling in just like the goose and egg slides with like nav slides, like projections, like it's very.

• 1:29:07John Coogan?

  Keep going. One more. There we go. This is beautiful.

• 1:29:10Jordi Hays?

  The golden egg factory inside the goose.

• 1:29:13John Coogan?

  What, what happened here is the.

• 1:29:16Jordi Hays?

  The true source of value, the golden egg factory inside the goose. So the golden egg factory.

• 1:29:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:23Jordi Hays?

  Of course it's inside the goose. The goose is what lays the eggs. It's an internal mechanism.

• 1:29:27John Coogan?

  It's also not a biological process. It's an industrial process.

• 1:29:31Jordi Hays?

  Here, it really is like, yeah, it's an internal mechanism.

• 1:29:34John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:29:34Jordi Hays?

  In the goose.

• 1:29:35John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:29:35Jordi Hays?

  And you have this sort of like automated.

• 1:29:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:38Jordi Hays?

  Bearer belt producing these ASI eggs.

• 1:29:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43John Coogan?

  ASI are the eggs. It's interesting.

• 1:29:46Jordi Hays?

  Let's go to the next one because I think it kind of clarifies how to understand the market capitalization of SoftBank Group. You know, you need to, he's feeling like, okay, like you're just valuing me for my eggs.

• 1:29:58John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:29:59Jordi Hays?

  I want you to value me based on my egg value.

• 1:30:01John Coogan?

  And my goose value.

• 1:30:03Jordi Hays?

  My goose value. That's the path to the quadrillion.

• 1:30:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:07Jordi Hays?

  Right?

• 1:30:08John Coogan?

  This is something they, they don't teach you this at Harvard Business School. Realizing AI, this is his plan. And it is an optimistic message. Happiness for everyone through ASI. It is funny. I mean, a lot gets lost in translation. He has a very funny aesthetic. But, you know, I don't know. I agree with a lot of this. Like, the models are good. Stuff is valuable. I don't know. It's, it's, it's very funny to see one of these, some of these slides, but it's a good time. SoftBank Group always delivers. Always delivers. It's funny. You have to imagine that there's like someone over there who's been like, maybe we should like punch up the design aesthetics and just like, no, we got a good thing going. I mean,

• 1:30:52John Coogan?

  maybe it's like the Warren Buffett version of like the Berkshire Hathaway website never needs a, never needs a rebrand, doesn't need to go with the linear aesthetic at any point in time. Anyway, if you're making a deck and you're taking a different path, you probably want to open up Figma. Agents, meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context. Masa, if you're listening, jump on Figma for the next one. We'd love to see it.

• 1:31:18Jordi Hays?

  And not even because we want you to change the aesthetics of your decks or the style or the way ideas are communicated, but purely because it'll make it faster and more efficient for your team.

• 1:31:27John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:31:28Jordi Hays?

  And you'll be able to collaborate more efficiently.

• 1:31:30John Coogan?

  Yes. Anyway, there's.

• 1:31:32Jordi Hays?

  Speaking of decks.

• 1:31:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Jordi Hays?

  Character AI deck from 2021. It's been floating around.

• 1:31:37John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:31:39Jordi Hays?

  Uh, which I guess came out in a lawsuit.

• 1:31:43John Coogan?

  Yeah, I wonder why, but this was from 2021, December 8th, a lifetime ago in artificial intelligence, just five years. It's crazy. Two-year run acquisition by Google, two years there. Now Gnome is over at OpenAI. Uh, about Gnome, and this is another good deck. Like, are you seeing this? This has the same, it has the same, it has similar level of aesthetics in the sense that it's like, like, very simple in its design.

• 1:32:10Jordi Hays?

  No, the lesson, the lesson in here, and, and, uh, I, I've always said when working on decks, like, if the deck is not compelling when it's black and white, and there's not even any visuals inside, the, the final product, even if designed, you know, beautifully, will not be compelling, right? So like, the, the actual content, the words are what matter most. And, uh, and here you have Gnome being.

• 1:32:36John Coogan?

  Says he's always into AI. Early days of Google, he created the spell checker, Did You Mean? First targeting system for AdSense, a topic clustering model, and then other large-scale ML systems. Gnome and LLMs. In 2016, he predicted that large neural language models are the future. Wow. Goaded. Goal: Invent critical innovations and make them available to the world. Guts of the transformer architecture, distributed computing strategy, high-performance sparsity, optimization, fast decoding, long sequences. He also says the goose was not valued. That's interesting. I guess he's, he said that earlier. He was talking about in, in, in 2016, the lack of goose value.

• 1:33:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, he said what matters is not the eggs. It is, what matters is not the models. It's the, the, it's the goose itself. True value is the power to keep making models. And, uh,

• 1:33:28John Coogan?

  But, uh, it's so funny. I, I think this is a dig at OpenAI, but it's also a testament to his, his contributions. GPT-3, according to several OpenAI employees, OpenAI was directionless, attended Gnome's talk in 2018, took notes and implemented. This became GPT-3, continued to monitor and implement many of Gnome's papers. Uh, and he also referenced

• 1:33:48Jordi Hays?

  So funny.

• 1:33:49John Coogan?

  Kevin Lacker says GPT three can't quite pass a coding phone screen, but it's getting closer in 2021. GitHub Copilot based on GPT three about Daniel. He talks about other products and it's just a fun read to see. You know, starting a company, want to capitalize on future innovations, left Google a month ago. Lots more inbound interest from top people, lots of interest from angels and VCs, taking first seed note. Yeah. Vision capabilities. His use cases are interesting, too. Says version zero, million use cases, fun and interesting conversations, companionship, recommendations, foreign language practice, practice, social situations, assistive writing. The whole idea with character AI was that you'd be able to pick an individual person to talk to.

• 1:34:33John Coogan?

  I remember I demoed it and I was like, I want to talk to Joseph Stalin and try and convince him that capitalism is the best system or something. I wanted to like, I wanted to like have a debate with.

• 1:34:44Jordi Hays?

  Weren't you successful?

• 1:34:45John Coogan?

  No, it was, it was, it was very funny because the, the base model was so RL'd against like communism and, and like all the famine and Russian like, you know, expansionism that had happened in World War Two, that it, it like was sort of, I was very quickly able to convince Stalin that he was bad.

• 1:35:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I know. You were successful.

• 1:35:05John Coogan?

  Yeah, I was basically successful.

• 1:35:07Jordi Hays?

  Take full credit.

• 1:35:08John Coogan?

  And I was like, that doesn't feel like actually what it would be like. Yes.

• 1:35:12Jordi Hays?

  And you came out on top.

• 1:35:13John Coogan?

  Yes, but it was, it was an unsatisfactory experience because it felt like I was talking to an American sort of LARPing as Stalin instead of like the real Stalin. But it was interesting. Talks about life coaching, customer support, personal assistance, home automation, all things that are coming to real life, either through base models or application layer products on top. The mode is just quality, quality, quality, the best research engineers, the most intelligent products, the highest usage and large compute cloud. He says it costs $1 million to train GPT three. Smarter model is more expensive.

• 1:35:49John Coogan?

  Company plan, buy some GPUs, evaluating buy versus cloud, train a GPT-3 sized model in three weeks, total spend 20 million to 30 million in the first year. Anyway, lots of fun there. Where else should we go? There's other, there's other OpenAI news. I mean, the, the chip jalapeno launched, designed with Broadcom. Jalapeno is purpose-built for LLM workloads powering ChatGPT Codex API, future agentic products. Very exciting.

• 1:36:17Jordi Hays?

  Crazy, crazy, crazy timeline here.

• 1:36:21John Coogan?

  What?

• 1:36:21Jordi Hays?

  Uh, just how quickly they were able.

• 1:36:23John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. A lot of people are saying like, this is the first chip designed with AI agents in the loop. So you can write the instruction set much quicker, sort of unclear exactly.

• 1:36:33Jordi Hays?

  You gotta give a lot of credit to the humans on both sides.

• 1:36:35John Coogan?

  But it is just cool because for a long time it was like, oh, it'll take five years to launch a chip. And now companies are clearly doing it faster. And so the, the, the go-to-market cycle is tightening for a variety of reasons. Also, apparently OpenAI made deals to purchase 40% of the global raw undiced DRAM wafer output until 2029. Millions of raw DRAM wafers that cannot be used until they're processed. Paul Buchheit says, smart move, going deeper and deeper into the supply chain. Always, always interesting moves from the deals guy at the top.

• 1:37:08Jordi Hays?

  Um, speaking of timelines.

• 1:37:11John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:37:11Jordi Hays?

  Uh, people are comparing GTA 6 with the Burj Khalifa. Burj Khalifa was built for one and a half billion dollars and took six years.

• 1:37:21John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:37:22Jordi Hays?

  Apparently GTA 6 is $2 billion and it's taking 12 years.

• 1:37:26John Coogan?

  I'm talking about.

• 1:37:28Jordi Hays?

  But at the same time, people really have said like, it is the Burj Khalifa video game.

• 1:37:33John Coogan?

  It's got two Burj Khalifas.

• 1:37:34Jordi Hays?

  Um, I, um.

• 1:37:39Jordi Hays?

  We are are gonna have a very special episode on launch day. So I'm looking forward to that.

• 1:37:48John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about console. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets.

• 1:37:58John Coogan?

  What about this LED lamp?

• 1:38:00Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so Philips introduced Skylight, a ceiling mounted LED panel that makes windowless rooms feel like they have a sky facing window. It uses Signify's Nature Connect tech to create the depth, brightness and color shifts of natural daylight. Philips also follows the sun throughout the day, moving from cool warmer light to warmer evening tones. So yeah, do you think they can like basically understand your location and where you are and your orientation with the sun to actually actually make, you know, actually like track like where would the sunlight exactly be? Yeah, so this got so much hate because the the obvious solution,

• 1:38:44Jordi Hays?

  if you don't have sunlight is to go get some, walk outside, touch grass.

• 1:38:49John Coogan?

  Or just carry a flashlight around.

• 1:38:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. Carry a flashlight around and just point it at your face is one.

• 1:38:56John Coogan?

  No, if you're in a dark room and you want to see something over there, point the flashlight at it. It's easy.

• 1:39:02Jordi Hays?

  But I have my first apartment when I moved after college was a very, at a very funny room. It, the only window in the room opened up to a public courtyard in the apartment building, which made it just completely not a viable window at all. Like, why do you want it? It felt like actually being in a fish tank. It was terrible. Probably would have like enjoyed having one of these. We also are in a bit of a windowless room here ourselves. So I saw this and I was like, whoa, we should get a bunch of these. And so, yeah, I was, I was seeing all the, all the hate for this and like sort of getting it. But I think even,

• 1:39:46Jordi Hays?

  even throughout my life, I've just realized that like. Humans are like advanced cats. We sort of just migrate to where there's like the feet, you know, some amount of light.

• 1:39:55John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:39:56Jordi Hays?

  I think the question is, if you're in a, if you're in a, in a building that has these, does it actually make, like, does it act like, does it trick your animal brain into feeling like, yes, I'm in a sunlit room, I'm getting the benefits of sunlight? Or will people still like, you know, try to congregate around the areas with natural light?

• 1:40:15John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, it seems like a, like a, like an upgrade, even if it's not a hundred percent of the way there. It's maybe eighty percent of the way there and it feels good.

• 1:40:25John Coogan?

  I don't know. How much are these? Do we know yet? I'm very interested to see how much they, uh, how much they charge for this. There's some, there's some cool stuff here.

• 1:40:35John Coogan?

  Let's see what people are saying. I'm prepared to buy twenty of these. I've been looking for something like this since I moved into a cellar.

• 1:40:43Jordi Hays?

  He's obviously joking.

• 1:40:44John Coogan?

  I know, it's amazing.

• 1:40:45Jordi Hays?

  Five hundred and eighty USD.

• 1:40:48John Coogan?

  From Wayform.

• 1:40:49Jordi Hays?

  Just under six hundred dollars.

• 1:40:51John Coogan?

  Six hundred bucks? Yeah, I think, I don't know. I, I think that there's a very simple swap out of those can lights, those can LED, you know, the can LEDs? That go into like ceilings? Normally it's like pretty standard in a modern house. You go and you click a button on the wall and there's just like a bunch of can LEDs. And the alternative to that was like those fluorescent tubes that you see in like old office buildings that was like really bad.

• 1:41:21John Coogan?

  But I, I could imagine just having these even in rooms with, with, uh, you know, windows. It's probably just a nicer light source than a can light or a fluorescent panel. But probably not a full substitute from a nice window with a view that's actually reality.

• 1:41:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:40John Coogan?

  Um, but why not, uh, put these all over the place if they look good and they're, they're effective? I, I bet you, you must be able to use them as like normal lights at night too, right? Or is it just for taking a somewhat dark space during the day and brightening it up?

• 1:41:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you can use them to trick yourself into thinking it's daytime.

• 1:42:01John Coogan?

  Turn it into like a casino.

• 1:42:02Jordi Hays?

  Even when you're in a forty eight hour video game bender.

• 1:42:04John Coogan?

  Yeah, if you want to make your, if you want to make your house more like a Las Vegas casino, where you can't tell what time it is, suck a little bit of the oxygen out, they should make an add on for that, reduce the oxygen level and then keep the lights, you know, there's that one in Paris, or not in Paris, it's called Paris, I think, in Las Vegas, and it has this weird like blue sky that they never turn the lights off in, so when you walk through the casino, you're just like, oh, it feels like 2pm, and so you never leave, never leave.

• 1:42:36Jordi Hays?

  Bernie Sanders is taking shots.

• 1:42:40John Coogan?

  Tim Cook, so Apple raised prices on basically everything, they held back on a few, few devices, but Bernie Sanders is mad about it, he says corporate greed is Tim Cook, the billionaire CEO of Apple, not anymore, he's on the way out, soon to be ex-CEO of Apple, claiming that hiking prices on Apple products by over $200 is unavoidable after it made 112 billion in profit last year and spent 310 billion on stock buybacks.

• 1:43:09Jordi Hays?

  Hey, Gabe says this product is banned from the UltraDome, can't be giving the boys a sense of time, so that longer.

• 1:43:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, the price hikes aren't unavoidable, they're unacceptable, and so apparently Apple spent nine, 90 billion on stock buybacks in fiscal 2025, but he's like correct, I, I think Apple's reduced, I think Apple has returned a trillion dollars to shareholders, so my number would actually be north of 310 billion, but we live in a competitive market and this is an opportunity for other companies, because if Apple's raising prices, that's a better value prop for a Chromebook or someone else who figures out how to optimize memory and not have a price hike, or.

• 1:43:55Jordi Hays?

  I just think like, saying that like corporate greed is Tim Cook, when the guy's barely clipping 35 a year after taxes.

• 1:44:04John Coogan?

  It's true.

• 1:44:05Jordi Hays?

  Is rude and unnecessary.

• 1:44:07John Coogan?

  Yeah, but the reason is of course.

• 1:44:09Jordi Hays?

  Like, I didn't see Bernie. Marching on Cupertino when Tim was, you know, on his run, generational run, being dramatically underpaid relative many of the other CEOs. So I just think, I just think crazy, crazy person to put in your crosshairs.

• 1:44:28John Coogan?

  Joe Weisenthal summed it up well. He says, "Micron market cap is up $150 billion today. Apple's market cap is down $210 billion. Almost a perfect, perfect value reallocation hinging on memory. Memory is expensive and so everyone is rotating over to, to Micron." From Apple, here are the actual facts from the Germinator. Apple raises Mac, iPad home prices to counter memory shortage. The Apple TV got hit hard. It went from like $130 to $200 or $250. So it saw the highest percentage price increase, which is odd because I didn't

• 1:45:12John Coogan?

  think that the Apple TV was particularly a memory-intensive product, but it's certainly not Apple's core. So maybe they offset a little bit of the pain there. The company is increasing prices of the MacBook Neo, which is the new laptop that was the cheapest MacBook ever made, $500 with the educational discount. The MacBook Pro is going up in price, MacBook Air, iPad Air, iPad Pro. Starting price of the MacBook Neo is rising to $700 from $600, while the MacBook Air is increasing to $1,300 from $1,100. So a $200 price increase for the MacBook Air. The entry-level 14-inch MacBook Pro is moving to $2,000 from $1,700,

• 1:45:55John Coogan?

  while the 11-inch iPad Pro is increasing to $1,200 from $1,000. iPad Air, a mid-tier tablet, now priced at $750, up from $600. The price hikes are global. And congratulations to...

• 1:46:11John Coogan?

  No, Ben Thompson lost his bet to John Gruber. Gruber won. They had a bet over whether or not Apple would raise prices due to all of the, all of the memory price spikes.

• 1:46:23Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the CEO of Micron was sort of like hinting at some, some basically negotiations that had happened years ago. Apple is very aggressive in their supplier negotiations. And he was basically insinuating that it was like Apple's like very sort of aggressive negotiating that made it impossible for Micron to be reinvesting in increasing production. I think this was like in like 2021.

• 1:46:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:54Jordi Hays?

  So anyways, complicated.

• 1:46:57John Coogan?

  Interesting. Well, gamers are already mad at AI about driving up the price of GPUs and memory. And now you will have the Apple fanboys potentially upset as well. So, I don't know, Bernie, why not, you know, some subsidies? Subsidize Apple. Keep those prices down. No.

• 1:47:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:18John Coogan?

  The answer is obviously to build more, build more capacity, build more memory, bring the price down, let the market clear as quickly as possible. Micron, of course, is a trillion dollar company headquartered in Boise, Idaho. Very cool.

• 1:47:32Jordi Hays?

  We got to talk about small trucks.

• 1:47:36John Coogan?

  Small trucks?

• 1:47:36Jordi Hays?

  It's time to talk about small trucks.

• 1:47:38John Coogan?

  Okay. First, let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that lets you grow with your business and lets you sell in seconds, online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents. Trucks.

• 1:47:51Jordi Hays?

  Trucks. Before we talk about the slate truck.

• 1:47:54John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:47:54Jordi Hays?

  We got to talk about Rio Industries.

• 1:47:57John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 1:47:58Jordi Hays?

  Started in 19, this is the, the week of, this is maybe the year of the small truck.

• 1:48:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:04Jordi Hays?

  Rio Industries started in 1905, reborn in 2026. They are undercutting the slate.

• 1:48:12Jordi Hays?

  They're starting at $21,500 for a four cylinder gas engine. They heard you, John. John has been, this whole week, John's been thinking, man, that slate truck is awesome, but what if it had a gas engine? They're coming out, it's a four cylinder, four cylinder gas engine, manual and automatic transition, body on frame, four-wheel drive, 600-mile tank.

• 1:48:42John Coogan?

  They have their head to head with the slate truck.

• 1:48:45Jordi Hays?

  Texas built.

• 1:48:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:47Jordi Hays?

  Texas built, so it's the Texas, the Texan response to the slate truck. Not a lot of other information, but.

• 1:48:55John Coogan?

  Scroll down on the website, you can see that there's a how it stacks up, the Rio runabout versus the Ford Maverick versus the slate truck, they claim to be cheaper, more proven with their gas engine.

• 1:49:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so haters.

• 1:49:08John Coogan?

  600 miles on a tank.

• 1:49:09Jordi Hays?

  Haters and critics of the small truck boom are pointing to the.

• 1:49:14John Coogan?

  Are you trying to get Brandon's attention?

• 1:49:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Brandon is not in the room anymore, I guess.

• 1:49:19John Coogan?

  Oh, he had to run, he's scared.

• 1:49:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, he's scared to have this conversation on air.

• 1:49:25Jordi Hays?

  But, yeah, the haters and critics of the small truck boom are saying the Ford Maverick XL already exists, has a lot of the bells and whistles.

• 1:49:38John Coogan?

  What is the Ford, is the Ford Maverick XL a four-door? Yeah, right.

• 1:49:42Jordi Hays?

  Must be.

• 1:49:43John Coogan?

  I think the Ford Maverick in general is a four-door, right? Because every two-door truck has failed. There are no successful two-door trucks. Two doors is something people think they want, they look at it, they say, oh, that's so compact, that's so easy, and then they realize that they will want to easily put their family in the back without sliding the seats forward, and so the demand just never shows up and everything winds up being four doors, and that's why you get these weird things.

• 1:50:11Jordi Hays?

  I think, I think.

• 1:50:13John Coogan?

  So small.

• 1:50:14Jordi Hays?

  You can't really say there's never been, they've all failed, because like.

• 1:50:18John Coogan?

  Name one.

• 1:50:18Jordi Hays?

  The Ford Ranger was produced for many, many. Many years, it's a two-door truck. Uh, my grandpa.

• 1:50:24John Coogan?

  Not around anymore.

• 1:50:25Jordi Hays?

  My grandpa, well, it's around.

• 1:50:27John Coogan?

  As a four-door.

• 1:50:28Jordi Hays?

  No, it's around.

• 1:50:29John Coogan?

  As a two-door?

• 1:50:29Jordi Hays?

  My dad still owns my grandpa's old truck.

• 1:50:32John Coogan?

  No, I mean.

• 1:50:32Jordi Hays?

  It still runs perfectly.

• 1:50:33John Coogan?

  I mean, are they still selling them?

• 1:50:35Jordi Hays?

  They produced the first gen Ranger from nineteen eighty-three to nineteen ninety-two.

• 1:50:38John Coogan?

  A successful vehicle like the E-Class Mercedes is still on sale. Like, what, fifty years later, right? The BMW five series is still on sale. Like, certain cars, they go through iterations, they have facelifts and new designs, but they stay around.

• 1:50:53Jordi Hays?

  I'm seeing hundreds. I'm seeing hundreds of, of two-door.

• 1:50:57John Coogan?

  You're looking at used cars, that doesn't count. I'm talking about a company that's been in the market and decided, yes, it makes sense to keep this in the model lineup for the next revision, instead of going only four doors. And so that is the problem that a lot of these cars will see. There's a lot of demand, a lot of stated preference, but the revealed preference is always for the four-door. Uh, the four, four-door configuration, at least in America. Uh, I do think that there might be something interesting with shortening the nose. It's a very odd aesthetic decision, but if you actually want a small truck with four doors and a full-size bed and you're going electric, you could, in theory, remove the front engine, the front trunk, and push the cab much further forward. It would look a lot more like a bus.

• 1:51:42John Coogan?

  People would probably not like the aesthetics, but in terms of functionality, you kind of get everything you want there because the front area of a Rivian truck is kind of doing nothing. Like, it's a nice extra storage space and they put a bunch of equipment there, but that equipment can be distributed throughout the rest of the vehicle. But, uh, I don't know. Uh, so it's, it would, it would be a big uphill battle to make that look cool because it would look like a Volkswagen ID. Buzz.

• 1:52:06Jordi Hays?

  So, so the bare case for the Slate is twofold. Maverick XL already exists.

• 1:52:12John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:52:13Jordi Hays?

  Uh, and it's twenty-seven grand. Uh, they, the Slate is sort of bundling in, I think, some of the taxes and like fees.

• 1:52:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:20Jordi Hays?

  Uh, into their price, so it's not an entirely fair comparison.

• 1:52:25Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, but they're doing a lot of stuff really well. I think the, the way that they take basically one SKU.

• 1:52:32John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:52:32Jordi Hays?

  And make it so customizable that it can feel like an SUV. It can feel like a Jeep. It can feel, uh, you know, it can feel like a, a basic truck. I, uh...

• 1:52:46Jordi Hays?

  All I can say in terms of like how successful this will be is like, I think I'll get one just because it seems like a fun car to drive around on the weekend. And, and there's just like a bunch of fun.

• 1:53:00John Coogan?

  Are you gonna go track only?

• 1:53:02Jordi Hays?

  I wish, I wish they had a track only.

• 1:53:04John Coogan?

  Just an extra 400,000 dollars.

• 1:53:07Jordi Hays?

  And yeah, so, so who knows how.

• 1:53:09John Coogan?

  Start with a 25K base and then add a $400,000 track only package.

• 1:53:14Jordi Hays?

  Who knows, who knows how this will go, but I think that, that the like infinite customization so that people can make it feel fun.

• 1:53:21John Coogan?

  And he's a very cool company. It's very cool.

• 1:53:23Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, make it feel like really like their own.

• 1:53:25John Coogan?

  And the wraps are like a thousand bucks or something like, like they, they, they will be like sort of nickel and diming you, but it's truly just a nickel and just a dime to add a different feature. And so you can probably go crazy in the configurator and wind up with a whole bunch of add-ons. But the fact that you can pick exactly what you want, much, much more fun buying experience. You can create something really interesting. You can also add on incrementally. I believe you can buy the truck and then upgrade to the SUV seating arrangement later. And you don't necessarily need to do that on day one. So you can sort of walk, crawl, run. What is the range on this truck?

• 1:54:02Jordi Hays?

  200 ish?

• 1:54:04John Coogan?

  Wow. Brandon Gurrell in shambles. He was spreading fake news.

• 1:54:08Jordi Hays?

  Brandon came in this morning.

• 1:54:09John Coogan?

  It was 45 miles of range. And I was like, it can't possibly be 45 miles.

• 1:54:13Jordi Hays?

  He said it's only 200 if you're pushing it for after 90 miles.

• 1:54:17John Coogan?

  No, he said 90 and I said, no, it's at 200. I don't know if it was ever 90. But 200 is plenty for a daily commute in a normal city. Also just for going around quick errands. It's not going to cost you anything. You're going to charge it. Seems fine. I don't think that demand for the 300 plus range, a lot of people who are in that category, this won't be their only vehicle. They'll have a gas engine that basically has unlimited range, right?

• 1:54:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:45John Coogan?

  But this can be.

• 1:54:45Jordi Hays?

  And you're, I mean, you're basically going to hold off on any real judgment until we get, uh, get its time on the green hell.

• 1:54:52John Coogan?

  Yes, that's very key.

• 1:54:54Jordi Hays?

  We'll see there. My only thing with the slate is like, uh, I actually think the, the, the actual customization software on the website is like very janky. And I find it very hard to, to seamlessly actually design different styles.

• 1:55:08John Coogan?

  Interesting. Four, four days.

• 1:55:10Jordi Hays?

  So it feels like they did like the hard. They're what?

• 1:55:13John Coogan?

  Ford is doing a $30,000 electric pickup truck next year. It'll have four doors, probably longer range, faster charging, and it'll definitely have more like power windows default, speakers standard, like a bunch of just the basics that they that you get from like the Ford platform. So there's a question about that. The hybrid Maverick also starts at 30K. So interesting challenge. I think it's cool. I think the best thing about it is that it's just a fresh design. It looks very cool. I think it's a unique choice and people can have a lot of fun with it and and just sort of like experiment with a new thing. But it does seem like a brutally, brutally competitive space.

• 1:55:55John Coogan?

  And and it's a it's a little bit, I don't know. There's something about this where when I see a new Chinese EV, I see them breaking constraints in like crazy, crazy ways where you're getting like supercar performance for $50,000 or some ultra luxury, like it looks like a Rolls Royce Cullinan, but it's 70K. And there's some real crazy innovations going on inside. This is a different sort of simple, much more simpler utilitarian take. I think it looks cool, though, and I like that there's so much optionality there. It feels like an interesting, interesting play. I really hope it's successful.

• 1:56:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I'm interested. Right now I can see it as kind of like a leisure, like weekender car, at least in my own life. I'm interested if they can crack the like first car market, right? They are competing with the Tesla Model 3, which is like, you know, 12-ish K over what the slate is set to start at. Tesla Model 3, you're getting, you know, self-driving, more range, arguably more function for a lot of people's like daily use. A lot of people, you know, like the idea of having a truck, but only use the truck bed, you know, twice a year, something like that. So like you said, competitive, but I'm excited for it.

• 1:57:22John Coogan?

  Going to Micro Center now feels like going to a jewelry store, says, says Take Kim, because everything's so expensive. Wow, $4,000 for a cutting-edge GeForce Gaming Graphics Card. That is a lot of money. It used to be over, like, going up in $600, $800 for a graphics card was like, ooh, you're paying big money. Now it's real big money.

• 1:57:45Jordi Hays?

  I thought it was funny that the AC in Europe debate really kicked off right when we landed, we were experiencing it. And right as we landed, we were, we were asking, like, talking with chat, like, okay, so like, is it, is it, like, why isn't it, why isn't it more popular at this point? And there were not a lot of great, uh, great reasons. I was thinking, huge opportunity to start the air conditioning company of Europe.

• 1:58:15John Coogan?

  That'd be good.

• 1:58:16Jordi Hays?

  Uh, I'm normally against that naming structure, but, uh, I kinda like it here.

• 1:58:22John Coogan?

  You're gonna have to lobby Macron or something, because isn't there a law that says you can't air condition a building to less than like 79 degrees?

• 1:58:29Jordi Hays?

  I think that's like a government building.

• 1:58:31John Coogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:58:32Jordi Hays?

  Public spaces. So if you're in a government, imagine, imagine, imagine you're at your office job, you know, working on like the, you know, uh, blocking AI in Europe, and you're just sitting there at, at your computer and it's 79 degrees.

• 1:58:48John Coogan?

  Is there no environmentally friendly refrigerant out there? Because you have to imagine that you could have cheap solar panels powering AC in a building and have a pretty good business, sort of like SolarCity for AC or something all across France. It's just odd that the market hasn't like solved that in some way, since I would imagine the demand would be very high. But, I don't know, maybe if you just grow up without AC, you never demand, you never long for it. Who knows? Anyway, uh, Lee Kwan Yu, air conditioning was the most important invention for us, perhaps one of the signal inventions of history. It changed the nature of civilization by making development possible in the tropics. Without air conditioning, you can only work in the

• 1:59:31John Coogan?

  cool early morning hours or at dusk. The first thing I did upon becoming prime minister was to install air conditioners in buildings where civil service worked. This was key to public efficiency. People start to struggle indoors once indoor temperatures exceed seventy three degrees. Yeah, seventy two is perfect. Sleep efficiency goes down, sleep duration goes down, work productivity goes down, school learning goes down. Wow. Uh, really, really crazy. Patrick Collison is, is, um, is, uh, chiming in. Also, Patrick Collison funded a cure for the flu. This is going to be as big as the cancer thing.

• 2:00:08Jordi Hays?

  The tech industry really needs to do this right now.

• 2:00:10John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. Need a win that is like broadly understood.

• 2:00:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think it's Stripe, OpenAI, Anthropic, and some others.

• 2:00:18John Coogan?

  OpenAI, Anthropic, Stripe, and Bill Gates are putting five hundred million dollars into funding a new organization called Intercept. Intercept's goal is to prevent the common cold and the flu and eventually eliminate all respiratory viruses completely. Incredibly cool project, incredibly, uh, yeah, just like an incredibly cool, uh, like tangible thing. I saw a stat that I saw this chart of how many, it was like, what percentage of weeks are parents sick with something viral generally as a function of how many kids they have? And it's like a fast takeoff curve. So it's like one kid and you're sick, like twenty five percent of the year, you have like some virus in your system, a cold,

• 2:01:00John Coogan?

  the flu, something. And then as you get to like two, three, four kids, it ramps to like fifty percent of the year, you are sick. And, uh, and people will feel that if they're like, yes, I'm getting less sick. It's working.

• 2:01:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, when, when, uh, the podcasts, you know, optimizers that, uh, struggle to have, you know, two drinks and continue podcasting, like they are so woefully unprepared for having children. Fortunately, most podcasters, uh, you know, don't have.

• 2:01:32Jordi Hays?

  They don't tend to go down that path of having families.

• 2:01:39Jordi Hays?

  But.

• 2:01:42John Coogan?

  It's a monastic.

• 2:01:43Jordi Hays?

  But if they did. We could potentially see the strategic podcast reserve decline meaningfully just because, you know, if you're sick half of the year. I remember for some reason it was like, it felt the worst when we first started the show and between us, we had, I guess we had five kids at the time.

• 2:02:06John Coogan?

  Blow my nose. Ah, true. And then, okay, back to the.

• 2:02:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So with five kids, it's like, okay, one of the kids is always sick perpetually. And then that means one of us is either like sick or starting to get sick. And then I just be, we'd be looking across the table at each other being like, I've got maybe 36 hours until I'm feeling the exact same thing.

• 2:02:26John Coogan?

  Here's a hack from Tyler. He says he has three kids, just sauna every day, 24 minutes at 205 degrees. That's some serious sauna. Our sauna does not go that high right now. And I don't know if I'm putting in 25 minutes.

• 2:02:41Jordi Hays?

  I haven't hacked my sauna to be able to go that high.

• 2:02:46John Coogan?

  Yeah, you gotta overflock it.

• 2:02:47Jordi Hays?

  You, you do.

• 2:02:49John Coogan?

  Something. I don't know. Anyway. I bet this James Bond inspired spec mansion has a sauna in it. It's listing for $85 million, spanning roughly 23,000 feet. Villa Skyfall features a glass walled auto gallery, a wellness center and a Himalayan salt room, 95 foot long pool. Give me your review. Is this loud opulence? Is this you? Would you ever live here? Would you raise a family here? Or is it too over the top? It does look like Minecraft a little bit. Real estate developer Aldo Stark is so much of a James Bond fanatic that 007 influences everything from the way he dresses to the cars he drives. I don't think there's a week in my life I don't play a James Bond movie. Real cinephile. I like that.

• 2:03:32Jordi Hays?

  There we go.

• 2:03:33John Coogan?

  So it was fitting that Stark's latest spec project in Delray Beach was inspired by Skyfall. Both the 2012 movie and the fictional spy character's childhood home in Scotland. I seem to remember in Skyfall, the home in Scotland is not like this at all. It's a, isn't it abandoned? It's like really dark. It's like a cottage, right? Okay, I don't get that at all. Anyway.

• 2:03:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, amazing, amazing option for a supervillain that wants to move to Florida.

• 2:04:01John Coogan?

  It does feel like a supervillain. Pull up an image of the, yeah, any of this feels very, uh, very supervillain.

• 2:04:07Jordi Hays?

  If you were running like a gambling, like children's mind poisoning company, this could be.

• 2:04:14John Coogan?

  The walls and the ceilings are covered with wood, backlit onyx and rare stone or glass. The house also has a salon inspired by Parisian Cartier boutique. And a glass walled auto gallery and a rainforest inspired wellness center. The wellness center sounds cool. But it's a lot, it's got a lot going, a lot of reflections. It feels very bright. I feel like I'd need like sunglasses in here. Outside, there's a 95 foot long pool, waterfalls, fire features, plus putting green, pickleball, soccer field, cabanas and botanical gardens. There's something to see everywhere. It's quite a sensory overload. He says this. I like it. Okay, I agree with him. At least he's calling. He's playing. He's not trying to, he's not trying to lie to everyone. Uh, design homes. He runs it with his wife, bought a 2.5 acre.

• 2:04:55Jordi Hays?

  This might be the kind of space that is, uh, actually nice, nicer to be in. Like it, it will feel better in person than in the pictures. Like sometimes it's inverted where the pictures look amazing and then you show, cause they've like, you know, the lighting is like perfect, but, uh, with these, with these images, it just feels like, it feels like an LVMH, like.

• 2:05:18John Coogan?

  Yeah, it feels like this is a house if you're like throwing parties professionally, your entire world organizes around like these large dinner parties and celebrations and you have the New Year's Eve party.

• 2:05:31Jordi Hays?

  I do love this, I do love this, uh, this, this sunken, uh, conversation.

• 2:05:35John Coogan?

  There's a lot of.

• 2:05:36Jordi Hays?

  Fireplace.

• 2:05:37John Coogan?

  That's cool. If you scroll down to the front, uh, this looks particularly Minecraft-y with this, uh, waterfall coming out here. Yeah, look at that photo, Jordy. That is Minecraft central.

• 2:05:49Jordi Hays?

  There we go.

• 2:05:50John Coogan?

  Doesn't that look like?

• 2:05:51Jordi Hays?

  Honestly, I would just, I would, it needs like, it needs way more, uh, like a much bigger waterfall.

• 2:05:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:58Jordi Hays?

  Like I wanna, I wanna see the equivalent of like 20 fire hoses, just like shooting water out.

• 2:06:06John Coogan?

  Wait, huge news.

• 2:06:09John Coogan?

  Apple Vision Pro and Smart Glasses chief is leaving for OpenAI's hardware division.

• 2:06:14Jordi Hays?

  This is literally.

• 2:06:17John Coogan?

  This is my Christmas. This is amazing.

• 2:06:20Jordi Hays?

  I, this is honestly.

• 2:06:22John Coogan?

  Chopped. I'm like, no.

• 2:06:23Jordi Hays?

  I never really felt.

• 2:06:24John Coogan?

  Developers ever. I love it.

• 2:06:26Jordi Hays?

  I've never really felt like we were in a simulation until now.

• 2:06:28John Coogan?

  Vision, uh, autism, uh, Autism Capital say Vision Bros. right now. We can't keep getting away with this. It's so good. Uh, that is very exciting. Scoop from Mark Gurman. What a lo- what a lovely scoop. Uh, anyway.

• 2:06:40Jordi Hays?

  This is literally Christmas for John.

• 2:06:42John Coogan?

  Christmas for John. Uh, Malibu mansion seen in the OC and Austin Powers asks $90 million. It's on the cliff. Uh, you gotta tell me, this is in Point Doom, nine bedrooms, 20 vehicle garage and 176 feet of bluff frontage. So, explain to me the, the bluff dynamic because this feels like not, you're not just gonna walk out on the beach. So, how do you actually go enjoy the ocean other than just looking at it?

• 2:07:08Jordi Hays?

  Uh, there, like, very, very, very close to this is a path that just takes you down to the beach.

• 2:07:14John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:07:14Jordi Hays?

  Uh, all I will say about this property is every time I'm surfing.

• 2:07:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:19Jordi Hays?

  Below this, I look up and think, damn, that house is not, not long for this world. Uh, because it's really like, you can just see that like.

• 2:07:29John Coogan?

  Oh, you think it's gonna fall off the cliff or something?

• 2:07:31Jordi Hays?

  Not really. I mean, clearly there's plenty of backyard.

• 2:07:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:34Jordi Hays?

  And it, but, but, but, uh.

• 2:07:36John Coogan?

  Erosion does seem.

• 2:07:37Jordi Hays?

  The erosion is.

• 2:07:38John Coogan?

  Over.

• 2:07:39Jordi Hays?

  Is. Yeah, it's more so that you're gonna just have to like, probably change the backyard, but then uh, once somebody starts changing it, then like Coastal would get involved and they would probably make you change it pretty drastically.

• 2:07:52John Coogan?

  But every day you wake up and you're like, I'm denying, I'm defying mother nature. I'm challenging God. And that is empowering in a certain way.

• 2:08:00Jordi Hays?

  For some people.

• 2:08:01John Coogan?

  Yeah, you wake up thinking like, I am Icarus and I will be flying close to the sun today. And that's gotta be inspiring. That's a certain vibe. You wake up in the James Bond house. You think you're James Bond. You wake up in this house and you think, I'm tempting fate. And that's inspiring.

• 2:08:17Jordi Hays?

  You saw the 85-year-old man was arrested after allegedly street racing at over 100 miles per hour in a sports car while smoking a cigarette. Cigarette.

• 2:08:28Jordi Hays?

  When confronted, he reportedly told police he was just having, having a little ride in my favorite car.

• 2:08:34John Coogan?

  Okay. What's the charge, officer? Having a little ride in my favorite car? That's very good.

• 2:08:43Jordi Hays?

  Oh, man, I hope this story is, uh, true. Seems a little too good to be true.

• 2:08:48John Coogan?

  After winning millions on DraftKings, we mentioned it earlier, he built a mansion with a bowling alley. Texas home of Michael Cohen, who won the Millionaire Maker Fantasy Sports Tournament multiple times, has hidden rooms in a creepy library, according to him.

• 2:09:01Jordi Hays?

  What makes a library creepy?

• 2:09:03John Coogan?

  Let's find out. The first time Michael Cohen won $1 million on sports betting site DraftKings in 2015. He's the meme. He's like, you know, 99% of sports bettors quit right before they hit a big. He's the one who dug until he hit the divots. Skill issue. Tell, send this to Sagar and Jetty, it's not all bad.

• 2:09:21Jordi Hays?

  Luck issue.

• 2:09:22John Coogan?

  Luck issue, that's true. He hired, okay, so he wins a million dollars in 2015. He's having a wedding. He wants some musical talent. Who does he hire to come play his wedding, Jordy? Lil Flip. Rapper Lil Flip, never heard of him?

• 2:09:38Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 2:09:39John Coogan?

  Big in, uh, big in the Texas scene, I believe. And then he wins another million dollars in 2017, two years later, he buys a Tesla Model S. That's a pretty, like, reasonable thing, if you win a million bucks, buying a Model S feels like sort of responsible. I don't know, doesn't seem crazy. But then, third win in 2019, stock trader bought 14 acres on a private street in the suburbs of Houston and built a 14,700 square foot home. What are you laughing?

• 2:10:04Jordi Hays?

  Techno chief says, send this to Sagar.

• 2:10:09John Coogan?

  Inspiring, inspiring. Sagar, I don't know.

• 2:10:12Jordi Hays?

  Sagar is gonna pretend that this never got public. He's gonna pretend this, this is not a real story.

• 2:10:17John Coogan?

  Inspiring story of gambling gone right. The, it's kind of a go big or go home kind of attitude, said Michael, 43. Let's, let's flip to M8 and keep reading this. There's some, there's some funny quips in here. He says...

• 2:10:34John Coogan?

  He says, uh, he has won one million dollars or more in two subsequent DraftKings contests. He just keeps winning. It's crazy. Uh, if you are going to have your own street, you might as well have a big ass theater and you might as well have a bowling alley. This is his quote to the journal.

• 2:10:50Jordi Hays?

  Is this, is this some like sneaky content marketing from DraftKings? Like do they have, do they have this guy? Do they have this guy? Do they have this guy win like two of these contests that are, you know, what, what are the odds of winning? Like two of these random little contests and then going on this crazy press tour?

• 2:11:07John Coogan?

  He won in 2015, 2017, 2019, 2022 and 2024. He's estimated he's won over six million on DraftKings over the years. His approach to sports betting is analytical, not emotional. You know?

• 2:11:19Jordi Hays?

  I, I think we actually should send this to Sager and he should do an investigative deep dive. Because it seems like a little too heartwarming to be gambling that long and just winning on seemingly like random, like sweepstakes style things. Like it's not like he's, like if he was playing games of skill, they, he, they would have banned him.

• 2:11:41John Coogan?

  It is a game of skill. It's, uh, it's, wait, no, it's fantasy sports. That's luck, right? Or is that skill?

• 2:11:47Jordi Hays?

  Is that skill? Hey?

• 2:11:48John Coogan?

  Is it regulated as a skill game? I think it is. I think fantasy sports is regulated as skill. It's not pure luck.

• 2:11:53Jordi Hays?

  Do you think that, that, uh, that he's so good? But he loves attention and so DraftKings is like, keep letting him win so that he goes on this press tour. Heartwarming story, local man.

• 2:12:07John Coogan?

  Potentially.

• 2:12:08Jordi Hays?

  Achieves financial freedom through, uh, fantasy sports.

• 2:12:11John Coogan?

  Off the kitchen and living room is an entertainment wing, which their designer dubbed the Dave and Buster's Wing. It has a massive kitchen, a theater with a room for a hundred and eighty inch projector screen and a two lane bowling alley. There's a room with outlets for arcade or vending machines. The house has an elevator shaft. Should someone want to add one? Interesting. You put in the shaft before you put in the elevator. Why not just do the elevator? Apparently, home elevators are incredibly dangerous. It's a huge source of, uh, of, of, uh, risk to your health. Be careful.

• 2:12:43Jordi Hays?

  Not for this guy. He does not have luck issues.

• 2:12:46John Coogan?

  He has, he has good luck, I guess. Uh, I'll just sometimes make a joke and then somehow it becomes reality. In the Dave and Buster's wing, there's a bar with a pass-through window that opens to the outdoor pool area. If you're gonna have a party, you're gonna have a party, right? He said, "Might as well do it right." The house has several hidden rooms, including a safe room, and, uh, in the dining room, a hidden door and hallway lead to a room Cohen calls a creepy library. "There's actually nothing creepy about it," said the listing agent. The listing agent's like, "Hey, can you cool it with the weird lingo?" Uh, "He has a very expensive treehouse. You could be drinking cognac out of Waterford Crystal, smoking cigars on a Chesterfield couch." Uh, anyway, I don't know. Uh, he said, "Whoever

• 2:13:30John Coogan?

  buys the property will be someone local, potentially an athlete or celebrity. If someone wanted an even larger home, they could easily add another 3,000 square."

• 2:13:37Jordi Hays?

  Is he selling the home to put it all on black?

• 2:13:41John Coogan?

  Maybe, maybe.

• 2:13:42Jordi Hays?

  Um, Mr. Beast is hiring a senior ML AI engineer in San Francisco. Peter Wildford says, "I locked 100 AI researchers in a data center until they solved alignment." Absolute banger.

• 2:13:59John Coogan?

  That'd be a good.

• 2:14:00Jordi Hays?

  That'd be a, that would potentially be his biggest video.

• 2:14:02John Coogan?

  People talk about the need for new media and tech. That's, uh, maybe that's the final boss when Mr. Beast gets into it. Uh, what else is going on?

• 2:14:09Jordi Hays?

  Less, uh, a much more sad story, Om Malick.

• 2:14:15John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, a leak from GigaOm. This was, uh, like, right around TechCrunch, The Verge. When I got to Silicon Valley, GigaOm was like a source of incredible takes and analysis around, uh, around technology and startups, uh, beloved in the venture community, and he passed away very sadly.

• 2:14:31Jordi Hays?

  Hodinkee, uh, wrote, "In loving memory of Om Malick, friend, writer, venture capitalist, and ever the believer," uh, Benjamin Clymer, uh,

• 2:14:42John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:14:42Jordi Hays?

  wrote, wrote a really nice

• 2:14:44John Coogan?

  That's cool.

• 2:14:45Jordi Hays?

  piece. I never had the pleasure of meeting Om, but, uh, he clearly, uh, touched a lot of lives.

• 2:14:53John Coogan?

  Okay. Let's move over to Figma news. They're hosting Config 2026. We couldn't be there because we were traveling, but there's this crazy launch, Figma Motion Design. It took this individual four and a half seconds to make this. And really, really cool for, if you've done motion design, you know how long it takes to hang out in After Effects. Even just having a starting point, something to tweak, something to build off of. Who knows if you're going to be able to completely one-shot it, or you want to do more and inject your own taste to stand out.

• 2:15:32John Coogan?

  But I thought this was a very, very cool launch and something I would love to put to work in adding overlays to our YouTube Shorts. Something like that could be very, very cool. There's been a few of these products that are very, very interesting.

• 2:15:45Jordi Hays?

  Let's pull up this video of Elon telling Lex about being the world's first trillionaire.

• 2:15:53John Coogan?

  I know what you're going to post, and this is so silly. This is the impression. This is the impression.

• 2:16:00Jordi Hays?

  Tyler's not in the studio today, so the app is falling apart and won't load.

• 2:16:07John Coogan?

  Ridiculous.

• 2:16:08Jordi Hays?

  Should we skip it?

• 2:16:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, we can skip it. We can move on to this watch. It's about that time, says Cheepy13. This watch would, don't you think this watch would actually be cool if it just told the hour hand and the glass and the tab moved around in a circle? Like, that would be possible, right?

• 2:16:28Jordi Hays?

  Anything's possible, John.

• 2:16:30John Coogan?

  I think that's cool. And then at noon, it's beer o'clock and you can pop it open.

• 2:16:34Jordi Hays?

  I was just thinking it was like, it was only good to make the sound once. You just kept it on.

• 2:16:41John Coogan?

  Oh, just chimes.

• 2:16:42Jordi Hays?

  In case you needed to, any sort of strategic moment. But I think this is a good place to end the show.

• 2:16:48John Coogan?

  Yeah, that sounds good.

• 2:16:49Jordi Hays?

  It has been an honor and a privilege.

• 2:16:54John Coogan?

  It's been great.

• 2:16:55Jordi Hays?

  And I can't wait for Monday. Five shows, at least more? Four.

• 2:17:02John Coogan?

  We have a day off tomorrow or next week?

• 2:17:03Jordi Hays?

  Oh, 4th of July, maybe?

• 2:17:06John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. 4th of July. We'll be off Friday.

• 2:17:10John Coogan?

  Well, we have a light show on Thursday, so we'll be hanging out. Anyway, leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, sign up for newsletter at tbpn.com, and we will see you on Monday. Have a wonderful weekend. Goodbye. We love you.