S1E14 Game On

THE BLURB: With America - and the CIA - at war, everyone wants to fight, especially John. But, his skill sets aren't the required ones as the War On Terror begins. The CIA, it turns out, had an actual plan to deal with Osama bin Laden. After settling some old business back in Greece, John begins to work on the CTC's leadership, looking for a way to in to Afghanistan. And then one opens up... SHOW NOTES For more great podcasts like Dead Drop, please visit https://costardandtouchstone.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:29Speaker 03

  This podcast, it's a Coster and Touchstone production.

• 1:33John Kiriakou?

  A lot of people at the CIA have very elaborate cubicles. Very few people have private offices. There was this movement in the 80s and 90s to level the playing field and make these big, open bullpens where you can put hundreds of cubicles and everybody feels equal. Well, some had very elaborate cubicles and others, like me, just had sort of the bare necessities. I had my Arabic-English, English-Arabic dictionary. I had a clock, you know, when you needed a clock. Of course, even still today, you can't take a cellphone inside the CIA. It's a security violation. My first boss had a couple of interesting quotes hanging over his desk. They were mostly motivational quotes that really meant nothing to me. But I found a quote very early in my career,

• 2:18John Kiriakou?

  and I actually researched it to make sure that it wasn't apocryphal because it was so great, I wanted to be able to hang it up and cite it.

• 2:27John Kiriakou?

  It turned out to be a true quote, and it was by former Egyptian President Gamal Abdonasser. He said, “The thing about you Americans, you never make clear-cut stupid decisions. You only make complicated stupid decisions, which makes us wonder if there is something to them which we are missing.” And I found that quote to be the definition of American foreign policy. Our decisions are usually very complicated stupid decisions. And then we like to congratulate ourselves and tell ourselves that we’re all geniuses. And that’s just not the way it is. Hi, I’m John Kiriakou.

• 3:10John Kiriakou?

  Welcome to Dead Drop, What Makes a Spy Tick. This is another episode in our series, What Makes This Spy Tick? Before we get back to it, I want to thank you, as always, for listening. Thank you also for all your likes, ratings, reviews, and shares. We are genuinely delighted that more and more listeners like you are taking this storytelling journey with us. I really appreciate it. If you recall, our last episode ended with the men and women of the CIA’s counterterrorism center watching helplessly as some of the very terrorists we were trying to counter attacked America on TV. It was shocking on multiple levels and absurd on others.

• 3:52John Kiriakou?

  But America yet again was facing the dire consequence of earlier complicated stupid decisions that we had made. So was the CIA. To fully understand how the CIA responded to that day, how it responded to that day, you have to know what we already knew, how we knew it, and why knowing it didn’t help us, although it absolutely should have. As I said in an earlier episode, everyone in CTC that day was surprised by what was happening on TV. But we weren’t surprised by the terrorist act itself. Rather, we were surprised by its timing. One person who definitely wasn’t surprised, as he watched in horror, was Kofa Black. He was the director of CTC.

• 4:35John Kiriakou?

  I told a story about Kofa back in episode 13. I was training a group of Middle Eastern foreign intelligence officers when, to my great surprise, Kofa stopped by to ask these officers to help in tracking down a new but very real threat to America’s national security. That was a man named Osama bin Laden. Kofor got zero help from those officers that day. And now, on September 11th, his worst nightmare was coming true. As the CIA's Counterterrorism Center gasped en masse at the TV, a man behind me shouted, "Will someone please lead?" Slowly, all eyes went to Kofor. We needed a genius in that moment, and that's the man who stepped forward.

• 5:19John Kiriakou?

  Kofor was a longtime Africa specialist. He was a member of the senior intelligence service, highly regarded, widely respected. He had been the station chief in Khartoum, who was responsible for the capture of Carlos the Jackal. We've got a whole mini-episode planned to tell you the Carlos the Jackal story. Talk about a jaw-dropping story. I still just get chills when I think about it. The point, though, is Kofor Black was uniquely qualified to lead the CIA's counterterrorism response to the actions of a unique terrorist like Carlos the Jackal or Osama bin Laden. In December 1998, George Tenet, then the CIA's leader under President Bill Clinton,

• 6:03John Kiriakou?

  declared war on Osama bin Laden. Tenet tasked CTC with creating a new comprehensive plan of attack, which they did, and then previewed to senior CIA management at the end of July 1999. By mid-September, just a few months later, CIA management was briefing operational-level personnel at other agencies, not just the CIA, but NSA, the FBI, even the Pentagon, on this new plan, which, going right to it, they began calling "The Plan." So it is a stone-cold fact that the CIA literally had a plan to deal with Osama bin Laden. In that plan, the CIA would ring Afghanistan with secure covert bases, as many as we

• 6:48John Kiriakou?

  could, and then run CIA operations from them. The plan's goal was simple: capture bin Laden and bring him back alive for legal prosecution. To that end, Kover wanted to create a dedicated Bin Laden unit within the agency. Part of the unit would include commandos, or power military-style teams made up of officers who could blend into the region's Muslim population. Back in Episode 1, I told you that spying is, above almost everything else, a people business. The more you understand people, on a personal level, the easier it is to recruit them to work on your behalf, to spy for you. Understanding other people often demands understanding their culture and their religious

• 7:29John Kiriakou?

  faith, the emotional, moral, philosophical glue that holds them all together. To devout Muslims, Saudi Arabia is more than just a country. It's where the Prophet Muhammad was born and where the Quran was revealed to him. And it's where Muhammad died. Two of Islam's holiest places, its holiest mosques are in Saudi Arabia, at Mecca and Medina. That holiness carries a lot of very real moral weight with devout Muslims like Osama Bin Laden. Bin Laden was quoted on many occasions as saying that America's presence in Saudi Arabia was an affront to both Saudi Arabia and to Islam itself. That is a real and important distinction.

• 8:14John Kiriakou?

  Bin Laden used to say that the United States was polluting the land of the two holy mosques. What that means is, the King of Saudi Arabia, his official title is "King and Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques," being Mecca and Medina. So, there's a religious component to the position of King of Saudi Arabia. And Bin Laden and Al Qaeda had been very successful in spreading these rumors all around Saudi Arabia, that female soldiers were driving, in contravention of Saudi law, that American soldiers were having sex in public. There were rumors that they were having sex in front of the Holy Kaba in Mecca, that

• 8:59John Kiriakou?

  they were eating pork and they were giving pork to Saudi children. It was nuts, and it was laughable if you're an American and you're reading it, but a lot of Saudis believed it, and it brought them over to the side of Al Qaeda. Kofir Black didn't just walk onto the job that morning of September 11th. He had been the head of the Counterterrorism Center for a little more than three years at that point. The plan was to locate Bin Laden, other leaders in Al Qaeda, fighters in Al Qaeda, training bases in Al Qaeda, safe houses, whether they were in Afghanistan or in Pakistan. And then the other side of it was to fight Al Qaeda wherever we happened to find them.

• 9:44John Kiriakou?

  If that meant forcing a plane to land and grabbing somebody off the plane, if that meant snatching somebody off the street in Milan, or Berlin, or Cairo, or wherever they happened to be, the CIA was prepared to do that, and that was thanks to Kofir Black. The plan, as I said, was to locate and capture Bin Laden, as well as any other part of Al Qaeda's leadership. We didn't just want to cut the head off the snake, we wanted to obliterate it as much as we could. We went after Al Qaeda both where they were, in Afghanistan, and wherever we could find them throughout the world. We went after their safe houses and tried to stop them from communicating with the outside world. Their outlet of choice, really, was Al Jazeera.

• 10:28John Kiriakou?

  Now, Al Jazeera wanted to be helpful to us, but they genuinely had no idea how Al Qaeda's audiotapes and videotapes made their way from Al Qaeda to Al Jazeera's headquarters in Doha. Ironically, just as the CIA's literal plan began moving forward, so did another plan. This one was being imagined, drawn up, and penciled out in Afghanistan. Between November and December of 1999, Mohammed Atta, Marwan Ashahi, Ziyad Zahra, and Nawaf al-Hazmi visited Afghanistan, where they were all selected for the airplanes operation.

• 11:08John Kiriakou?

  The CIA actually watched Al-Hazmi and his companion Khalid Al-Midhar attend an Al Qaeda conference in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia in January 2000. That was thanks to the Malaysian security unit. It would turn out that more decisions about the plane's operation were being made while we watched. Although we didn't know the details, we knew that something bad was afoot. The problem was what we did and didn't do with that information. Kofra would be criticized later in an internal CIA report about the CIA's performance prior to 9/11 for keeping the FBI in the dark deliberately. In particular, the agency never told the FBI that Al-Hazmi and Al-Midhar had been granted visas

• 11:53John Kiriakou?

  to enter America. Meanwhile, apprehension flooded the zone. At a July 10, 2001, meeting with National Security Advisor Condi Rice, among others, Rich B., CIA Director Tenet's assistant, so to speak, predicted not just a spectacular terrorist attack against US interests in the coming weeks or months, but multiple simultaneous attacks. Here's a little more irony. George Tenet said in his book that after the meeting, Rich B. and Kofra actually congratulated each other for finally getting the Bush administration to pay attention to this incredibly important matter. But did they? Were they? Still, Kofra pressed on.

• 12:37John Kiriakou?

  One of the ways the CIA and CTC knew what we knew was from intel gathered by Predator reconnaissance drones. These flights were carried out jointly by the agency and the US Air Force. Kofra got the idea of arming these aircraft with missiles to target Bin Laden and other Al Qaeda leaders. On September 4, 2001, just a week before the attacks, Kofra urged George Tenet in advance of an appearance before Congress to promote the idea of arming these drones and then adding a new capability to attack with them. On September 4th, 2001, Tenet promoted this program to a long awaited Cabinet Level Principals Committee meeting, where he got the authorization to deploy the

• 13:22John Kiriakou?

  system with weapons-capable aircraft. A week later, far too soon for any such weapon system to be deployed, America was under attack. And, to make matters worse, there was a complete breakdown at the time in cooperation between the CIA and the FBI. That statement deserves a little bit of historical context as well. The CIA and the FBI historically have always hated each other. They hated each other since the CIA was created with the passage of the National Security Act of 1947, signed into law by President Harry Truman. Now, when the Act was being considered on Capitol Hill, it called for the creation of

• 14:05John Kiriakou?

  a central intelligence agency. We didn't have a central intelligence service in the United States. We had the FBI, and the FBI was led by J. Edgar Hoover, who was arguably the most powerful man in government next to the President himself. Hoover began lobbying on Capitol Hill, asking members of Congress, but particularly Republican members of Congress, to oppose passage of the National Security Act. President Truman got wind that he was doing this, and so he called Hoover into the White House and told him that the country really needed a central intelligence agency, but that the CIA would be a division of the FBI.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasiapro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure Sure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 15:25Speaker 02

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• 15:58John Kiriakou?

  And that lie was enough to get Hoover to back off. When the National Security Act was finally passed into law and the CIA was created, and it was not a part of the FBI, Hoover ordered that no FBI agent was permitted to cooperate with the CIA. That hatred and distrust carried on through the 9/11 attacks. Now, one of the reasons why 9/11 actually took place was because the CIA knew the identities of several of the hijackers. The CIA knew that those hijackers were in the United States. But the CIA believed that we could recruit some of them and double them back against Al Qaeda,

• 16:42John Kiriakou?

  and that we had enough time to disrupt whatever attack was coming. Well, on the FBI's side, the FBI knew the identities of the hijackers. The FBI knew that the hijackers meant to use planes as weapons, but didn't know that they were in the United States. The FBI wanted to take a shot at recruiting them if they were to come to the United States, but had no idea that they were already here because the information had been kept from them by the CIA. And so because of this bureaucratic pissing match, 3,000 Americans died on the same day. It was the greatest intelligence failure in American history.

• 17:27John Kiriakou?

  And I remember at the time saying to a colleague of mine, when he said it was the greatest intelligence failure, and I said, you know, I would go beyond that. This is an American failure. Sure, it's an intelligence failure, but it's also a law enforcement failure. The FBI should have told the CIA. It was a State Department failure because those guys all came here legally on visas. How in the world did that happen? And it was a failure at the local level. Who goes to flight schools, pays the money, and then tells the instructor, "We don't want to learn how to land. We just want to learn how to fly the plane." And that's not unusual enough to call the authorities.

• 18:09John Kiriakou?

  So this was a failure at every single level, and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for it. So there we were, at the CIA's counterterrorism center, helplessly watching terrorists that we had failed to stop. Finally, somebody behind me shouted, "Will somebody please lead?" That was like a slap in Kofir's face. It jarred him back to the present. And he said, "Right, you." And he points at somebody, "You, go to the director's office and tell him X. You, go to security and tell them Y. You, go to this other office and, you know..." And we just all stood there in silence.

• 18:53John Kiriakou?

  And then a third plane hits the Pentagon, and, you know, people start crying, and there was a CIA cop who came to the office, and he says, "Everybody evacuate, everybody out." Nobody budged. Kofir gets up on a chair, and again, there's just complete silence. And he says, "Ladies and gentlemen, today, we are at war. All of us are going to have to fight. Not all of us are going to make it home. If you want to leave right now, leave, and nobody will think lesser of you." One woman left. We never saw her again, but nobody else budged. And then the cop came back to the office, and he says, "If you don't evacuate, you will be placed under arrest."

• 19:38John Kiriakou?

  And Kofir said, "Everybody just go, save yourselves, go." And on the way out, I remember hearing... Some guy say, "We should probably assume that that fourth plane is headed here." And you know, it had never even occurred to me. I mean, it could have been a bunch of targets. It could have been the White House. It turned out that the actual fourth target was the Capitol building. But it could just as easily have been CIA headquarters. It took me two hours to get out of my parking space. If you can imagine such a thing. I only lived about seven miles from CIA headquarters. Just straight shot down the George Washington Parkway. It took me two hours to get out of my parking space.

• 20:20John Kiriakou?

  It took me another hour or so to get about to the halfway point. And then finally, I just abandoned my car. I just pulled over onto the grassy median, locked it, and just started walking. When I got to the foot of the Teddy Roosevelt Bridge, which is where I would make a right turn to go to my apartment, I saw the Deputy National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice's deputy, with no shoes. And that image has been burned into my brain all these years. Like, we were so panicked. We were so ill-prepared that the Deputy National Security Advisor, the guy who is supposed to be at the White House protecting me and you and everybody else, ran away without his shoes.

• 21:05John Kiriakou?

  My girlfriend, who later became my second wife, she had been on the sixth floor of CIA headquarters. I called her just as I was leaving and I said, "We're evacuating." She said, "We're evacuating too. I'll meet you at your place." She finally made it to my place. We went to the roof of the building and we watched the Pentagon burn for an hour or so. I said, "We should try to donate blood or something." We left the building and found a blood mobile not far from my apartment. But the line was so long that one of the Red Cross volunteers told us, "It'll be 24 hours before we could even get to you."

• 21:40Speaker 00

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• 22:14Speaker 05

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• 22:32John Kiriakou?

  So I said to her, we got to go back to headquarters. This is ridiculous. We're not doing anybody any good hiding, hiding from Al Qaeda. So I walked the three and a half miles back to my car. I got in and drove over the median. I went back to CIA headquarters and I didn't leave for the next four days. Anytime I felt like I needed an hour of sleep, I would just ball up my jacket and sleep under the desk. But we were all working quite literally 24 hours a day. And the funny thing is, when we evacuated on the 11th, the company that ran the cafeteria, which happened to be the Marriott, they put a chain in a padlock on the cafeteria doors. You can't order pizzas from Domino's down the street forever.

• 23:16John Kiriakou?

  So we managed to gin up a bolt cutter. We cut the padlock off the door. I was one of a half a dozen or so guys who went in there and fired up the grills. We cooked literally everything that the Marriott had. We ended up having to write them a check for $15,000 for all the food that we took. But as we would cook it, we would just lay it out on folding tables in the hallway outside the counter terrorism center. And people could just graze all day and all night, sleep an hour, get back to work. I didn't leave for the next four days. I went up to the, a guy. Who was the Deputy Director of Operations for the Counterterrorism Center. And I really liked him. He and I just sort of hit it off when I first arrived. We just enjoyed each other's company.

• 23:59John Kiriakou?

  So I knew that he would make five minutes for me where everybody else was too busy. So I went into his office and I said, what can I do to be helpful? I'll do anything, literally anything. Tell me what I can do to be helpful. He said, honestly, what everybody's doing right now is name traces. Well, name traces are like the lowest level work that anybody could do at the CIA. A trained monkey could type a name into into the computer and then just cut and paste whatever happens to come back. So I kept checking in with him each day, saying, you know, tell me what to do, tell me what to do, tell me what to do. He reminded me that a psychologist with whom I once did an operation had paid me this incredible compliment.

• 24:40John Kiriakou?

  She said, you know, John Kiriakou will come up with 30 different ideas for an operation. 26 of them are nuts, but four of them are going to be really good. And he said, give me some of those four. Come up with something great that we can implement. And so I sat down at my desk and I I started thinking about it. And one thing that Kofa had said subsequent to the attacks was that our budget is unlimited, our manpower is unlimited, and we are going to go after every terrorist group in the world that means us harm. Well, I was an expert on 17 November and there was something that I really, really wanted to do. So I went up to Kofa. I approached him in the hall and I said, Kofa, I have an idea for an operation that I want to pass by you.

• 25:26John Kiriakou?

  He put both of his hands up and he said, whatever it is, just do it. I have so much money, I can't possibly spend it all. So I went back to the office and I said, Kofa approved the operation. My boss said, seriously? I said, seriously. I just ran into him in the hallway and he said, just do it. And he said, OK, safe travels. And so I I flew out to Europe. I was gone for a couple of weeks. I scared the shit out of a very old communist. I'll say that, but he was no longer associated in any. Away with 17 November and I flew back. I ended up finding the husband of the woman that we believed was the lookout in the Dick Welch assassination. I found him in the United States.

• 26:11John Kiriakou?

  I flew out to Los Angeles, California and cold pitched the guy. He actually ended up being very helpful and gave us information that we otherwise never knew and probably would never have collected. But it didn't help us crack the 17 November case. None of this was aimed at Al Qaeda. This was old business and when it came to Al Qaeda, that was not my area of expertise. The operation was very simply to kill as many of them as we could. And that wasn't my thing. I also decided that I would try to offer up a bit of expertise that was not readily available in the counterterrorism center. And that was, that was my expertise, not just in the Middle East, but in analysis of the Middle East.

• 26:54John Kiriakou?

  I suggested a propaganda program to counter Al Qaeda. We have to focus also on hearts and minds. What we need is an Imam in the Middle East, preferably somebody from Al Azhar University in Cairo, which is the oldest university in the world. That's where all of the greatest thinkers of Islam have studied. We need a Sheikh of Al Azhar to come out and issue a fatwa permitting a war against Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. And they were like, shit, we never even thought of that. They engaged with the Egyptians, a fatwa was issued in support of the United States. I was kind of proud of that. But I had ants in my pants to get involved on the ground.

• 27:38John Kiriakou?

  In the meantime, they're sending more and more people around me, but all people who had military experience. I was very, very well aware that there was an enormous operation taking place in Afghanistan and being planned right there in the same room where I was working and that I was not privy to its details. This is the thing about the CIA, a lot is compartmentalized. If you don't have a need to know, then you don't know. And if you don't have a need to know, you know well enough to not ask. More and more of my colleagues are disappearing by the day. Like, oh, what happened to Jim? Uh, Jim went TDY, Temporary Duty. And you know not to ask where. I really wanted to know what everybody was doing because I wanted to be a part of it.

• 28:23John Kiriakou?

  I took 9/11 as seriously as anybody did in America. I lost friends, I lost colleagues that day. And then when Kofir stood on that chair that morning of 9/11 and said, “Today, we are at war. We’re all going to have to fight and not all of us are coming home.” I knew that I had to do my part and it was like they wouldn’t let me do my part. So I tried to make myself as useful as I could, either at headquarters or in Europe or in the Middle East, until it came my time. I knew that eventually they would need to get to me and that’s what happened. I only learned of my opportunity because I forced it.

• 29:04John Kiriakou?

  The deputy director of the Counterterrorism Center was one of my first bosses. He had risen through the ranks on the analytics side. I went into his office and I said, “So help me God, if you don’t send me to Afghanistan right now, I am walking straight to Exxon with my Arabic and I am not looking back.” And he said, “Will you take it easy?” I said, “I’m tired of this, man. I’m tired of being overlooked. I want to fight. I want to make a contribution.” I said, “I have Arabic. Almost nobody in this office has Arabic. You’ve gotta send me.” He said, “All right, all right. You want to go to Pakistan?” I said, “Yes, when?” He said, “Tomorrow.” I said, “Yes, what do you want me to do there?” He said, “I want you to be chief of counterterrorism operations.” And I said, “Done.”

• 29:49John Kiriakou?

  And I walked out and I picked up my secure line. I called my girlfriend, who was several floors above, and I said, “I gotta go to Pakistan tomorrow.” And she said, “Okay, for how long?” I said, “I don’t know, six months, nine months, 12 months?” And she said, “Okay, I’ll meet you at your place and I’ll help you pack.”

• 30:08John Kiriakou?

  In the next episode of Dead Drop, “What Makes This Spy Tick,” I’ll take you to Pakistan, where we go hunting for Al Qaeda. After setting up shop in Islamabad, I finally got my own office, teeny tiny as it was. We’ll start by kicking down some doors, taking out a terrorist safe house or two and the terrorists inside them. We’ll interrogate a few prisoners. I’ll play the good cop if you don’t mind and we’ll cap it all off by finding ourselves quite suddenly on the trail of Al Qaeda’s number three. At least we thought so. A man with the nom de guerre, Abu Zubedah.

• 30:43John Kiriakou?

  Game on becomes the hunt is on. If you enjoy this podcast, please check out my other podcasts and YouTube shows. There's D-Program, Monday through Friday mornings at nine o'clock Eastern on both Rumble and YouTube, and Deep Focus on YouTube. We drop those about twice a week. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, I'm John Kiriakou. Dead Drop is written by John Kiriakou and Alan Katz. Costart and Touchstone Productions produces the podcast, and John Kiriakou, Alan Katz, and Nick Mechanic are its executive producers.

• 31:28Speaker 03

  This podcast, it's a Costart and Touchstone production.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.