Leveraging Mindfulness to Change Your Life

Jonathan Fields is a super popular guy. There is a good reason for that, which I'm going to get into in a minute. Before I do, I wanted to check in with you in a bit about what we do over here at the RRP. I have the feeling that Jonathan's appeal will attract some cool new people to the audience (welcome!), so I wanted to take a quick moment to recap the mission. Yes, I am a plant-based endurance athlete. And yes, I do have many plant-based enthusiasts on this show. But this is hardly a narrowly defined “fitness” or “vegan” themed podcast. It's far more about inspiration. I cast a very broad net. When thinking about guests, my litmus test is finding fascinating people and personalities that span a variety of disciplines. People who push boundaries. Live extraordinary lives. Think different. Blaze their own path. Question the status quo. And live large and on their own terms – in service not just to themselves, but in devotion to others, catalyzing life changing improvement in the quality of people's lives, and overall simply raising the bar on what is possible. I deliver these conversations with the sole intention of providing you with a stocked tool-box of education, information, motivation and inspiration to help you take the quality of your life to the next level. The goal? To assist in helping you unlock and unleash your best most authentic self. That's it. Pure and simple. Last week I published an article entitled, “Why You Should Stop Lifehacking and Invest in the Journey” (also up on Medium ). I wrote it because I have been thinking a lot lately about self-improvement. More specifically our shortcutting, lifehacking, biohacking obsessed culture. This meme-fueled drive to circumvent process and expedite results. In and of itself fine. I’m all about efficiencies. But there is something that really bothers me about this trend because on a certain some level it downgrades the inherent value of process. Disrespect for the journey. And the blood, sweat, tears and joy from simply showing up and suiting up for the full commitment. To me, the journey is everything. That is where the value lies. It’s a sentiment that was echoed in last weeks podcast episode with Casey Neistat – a guy who overcame tremendous obstacles with nothing but faith, will, belief and total commitment to process. And it's an ethos that really captures what today’s guest is all about. All in all, a guy who understands the long-term value of the journey over the temporary thrill of the #lifehack. Jonathan Fields. Dad. Husband, serial-entrepreneur, award-winning, bestselling author, speaker, A-list blogger, web-show host, and mindful innovation strategist who has been profiled in pretty much every prestigious publication there is, including the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, FastCompany, and Forbes. A guy I have been following with great enthusiasm to my tremendous benefit for years. On a personal level, Jonathan is guy I can deeply relate to – a guy (like me) who decided to leave the gilded protective hallways of the corporate law firm existence and risk everything in search of a life path of greater meaning for himself and others. Well Jonathan found it — in spades. His mission? To humanize and empower the process of creation. To help people and organizations conceive and build better, more conscious businesses, art, and lives in less time, with more joy and less effort. What gives Jonathan's particular brand of entrepreneurship such resonance with me personally is his inherent focus on process over results. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout. Welcome to episode 74 of the Rich Roll Podcast with Jonathan Fields.

• 1:23Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome to the podcast, or the RRP, as I like to call it. Each week, I bring to you the best, most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting minds in health, fitness, wellness, diet, nutrition, spirituality, creativity, entrepreneurship. And when thinking about my guests, my primary focus is on people and personalities who are pushing boundaries, people that are living extraordinary lives, people that are thinking different, blazing their own path, questioning authority, living large, people that are living on their own terms, in service not just to themselves, but really devoted to something greater than themselves, outside themselves, devoted to helping other people,

• 2:06Rich Roll?

  to inspiring people, and putting out a message on how to raise the bar on what is possible in your own life. And I deliver these conversations with the intention of providing you with a toolbox of information and motivation and inspiration to help you take your life to the next level. And the goal is pure and simple. It's just to help you discover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. That's it. That's the goal. And before we get into today's amazing guest, I wanted to talk about one little thing. It's not an ad, so please don't fast forward through this. No ads up front today, or maybe ever. I might be done with

• 2:49Rich Roll?

  that. Anyway, I want to thank everybody who took a moment to read a blog post article that I posted on my site the other day, and it was called, "Why You Should Stop Life Hacking and Invest in the Journey." And I have to say, wow, you know, that one really struck a chord. Within 24 hours of posting that piece, it became the most-read piece of writing I've ever published on my site. And, you know, thank you, you guys who took a moment to read it and for all the great comments. And if you haven't seen it yet, just go to my site, richroll.com, and you can, you can check it out and read it there on the blog. And I wrote it because I've been thinking a lot lately about self-improvement and how to be your best self. And after interviewing Casey Neistat the other week,

• 3:34Rich Roll?

  thanks, everybody who, who listened to that one. That was a great episode. People seemed to really enjoy it. There was a lot of discussion about the journey over the destination, about the hard work and the toil and the total commitment that goes into actualizing something that's important in your life. And Casey kind of ended the interview with a very astute, compelling statement. It was his guarantee for life success. And he basically said, "Here's my guarantee for success. Commit everything that you are, your entire being, to that one thing that you're passionate about. Commit everything, and one of two outcomes will occur. Either you will succeed, or you will die trying." And that in and

• 4:18Rich Roll?

  of itself is its own form of success. And I've been thinking a lot about that lately. And then I started thinking about kind of what's going on culturally right now. And this really kind of meme fueled movement that is oriented around hacking your life. This hack obsessed culture, biohacking, life hacking, fit hack, all this sort of thing. And that's really, you know, I mean, if you haven't, if you're not familiar with this term, you know, just Google any derivation of it and I think you'll be quite amazed at what comes up. There's like whole conferences oriented around this. And I think in and of itself, in isolation, this is a really good thing. I mean, the idea really is to, is to figure out and implement these time-saving tools.

• 5:03Rich Roll?

  There are ways for streamlining your life so that you can free up time. And I think the intention is that you then use that free time to devote yourself more fully to something that's important to you personally, or something that is more about building your legacy or living more passionately in your life. But I think somewhere along the line, we kind of lost the thread. And what's happened is that the hack has become the goal in and of itself, rather than the tool to something else. And that kind of really bothers me. And on some level, I suppose it bothers me because it seems to inherently devalue and downgrade the gratification that comes with just plain hard work and devotion

• 5:46Rich Roll?

  and dedication and commitment to a path. You know, it's very easy to hashtag hack, but it's not as sexy to just say it takes hard work. And to me, inherently, that's kind of the truth. You know, I'm all about suiting up and showing up for the long play, the hard fought path. And there's a lot of value in that. And I feel like this, this meme obsessed, hack obsessed culture sort of disrespects that on some level. You know, the destination, the goal, the result is nothing, but the journey is everything. And that's where the value lies. It's a sentiment, again, that was echoed in last week's episode with Casey, who is a guy who overcame tremendous obstacles with nothing but faith in.

• 6:32Rich Roll?

  Will and total commitment and belief in himself and this sort of inherent total devotion to process. And that's also the ethos that really captures what today's guest is all about. So Jonathan Fields. Jonathan's a guy who I've been following with great enthusiasm for a number of years right now. And in many ways, he's a guy I can really relate to. He's a guy who decided to leave the kind of gilded protective hallways of the corporate law firm life and really risked everything in search of a life path of greater personal meaning for himself and for other people as well. He's a guy who is on a, he's really on a mission to humanize and empower the process

• 7:17Rich Roll?

  of creation, to help individuals and organizations leverage disruption to conceive and build better solutions, better businesses, better art and lives with more joy and less effort. Like me, he's a dad, he's a husband, he's a serial entrepreneur, he's an award-winning author, he's a, he's an in-demand speaker and an A-list blogger. You should definitely go to his website, JonathanFields.com and read some of his writings. They always improve my day. And he's really a mindful innovator and a strategist. And mindfulness is really the touchdown, and that's what we're going to talk about today. And this is a guy who, he's all over the place. I mean, he's been profiled in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Entrepreneur, Forbes.

• 8:02Rich Roll?

  And it's because he has a message that is powerful and really, really resonates. His latest book is called Uncertainty: Turning Fear and Doubt Into Fuel for Brilliance. And it was one of the top personal development books of 2011. And his first book was called Career Renegade, it came out a number of years ago. And that book was really instrumental in empowering me to change my life when I was at a crossroads many years ago. It was one of the top 10 small business books and, you know, a bestseller and all that kind of stuff. And it's really kind of a primer for how you can transcend your circumstances.

• 8:42Rich Roll?

  And reframe the idea of what career is and kind of flip the notions of what a traditional career is and embrace the idea that there are new and better ways of doing things that might be more in alignment with who you are as a person. He also has a web series, a video web series called Good Life Project, and I absolutely love this program that he puts out. It's a series of very high-quality video interviews that are interview-style, kind of, you know, on the Charlie Rose tip, where he sits down with a wide array of really inspirational people and kind of taps their brain about what makes them work.

• 9:24Rich Roll?

  And he also puts that up on iTunes as an audio podcast, but I would urge you to check out the video. It's really cool. And I was lucky enough that he sat down with me. I got to be a guest on that show last year, and that was really super fun and cool. So Jonathan was kind enough to sit down with me when I was in New York a couple of weeks ago, and he's a guy who really understands the value of the journey over the life hack. And that's why I think it was important to post this interview this week, to kind of create a consistent thread with what I'm writing on my site and the kind of interviews that I'm offering you. So, anyway, without further ado, I'm really proud and excited to share this amazing conversation

• 10:07Rich Roll?

  with somebody who has been very personally inspiring to me with you today. So, without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, Jonathan Fields.

• 10:27Rich Roll?

  And I was trying to think of how to approach speaking to you and kind of thinking of what comes to mind when I think of who you are and what you do, and the kind of recurring theme, if I had to encapsulate it in one word, I think would be mindfulness. It seems to be the undercurrent of everything that you do and are about. Is that fair to say?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's actually, um, it's really fair to say. It hasn't always been that way, though. But yeah, it's become a huge focus of mine. It's funny, it's such a hot word now.

• 11:05Rich Roll?

  I know, it's very.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, the cover of every magazine. So it's, and it's become, you know, like, what exactly do you mean by that? Is it the practice? Is it just being that way? Is it, and, um, actually, for me, it is, it's a literally a formal sitting practice, but it's also just, it's, you know, what, it's the way you approach your interaction with the world from the moment you open your eyes and the moment you close your eyes at night.

• 11:27Rich Roll?

  And so what does that look like for you?

• 11:30Speaker 01

  I mean, for, for me, my sitting practice, I, every day for me starts, um, at, you know, about six forty. And I don't wake up with an alarm clock. My buyers, I'm wired to just, no matter where I am in the world, no matter how little sleep I've had, it's like, boom, I'm up.

• 11:46Rich Roll?

  Or your daughter is your alarm clock, I would imagine.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Well, for a while it was, but now she's at an age where it's like reversed now. You know, like twelve years old, so now I have to go and shake.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  But, uh, no, I just, I kind of wander into, I have a home office and, uh, you know, a little area where I sit and I meditate for twenty five minutes, just a very simple breath-oriented mindfulness practice. And, uh, and the dirty little secret behind that is that I had, you know, you know, I owned a large yoga studio in Manhattan for years and taught meditation and yoga and all this stuff, and I had so much trouble. Sitting, developing a sitting, but I always meditated through movement, um, which I think is a little bit similar to you. And, but I could never just sit and, um, I, I didn't really develop a sitting practice until about three, four years ago, um, in response to some health stuff that literally

• 12:39Speaker 01

  brought me to my knees, and this was the gateway out of it.

• 12:43Rich Roll?

  And so what has the experience been of actually really implementing that and focusing on that?

• 12:48Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, it's tremendous. But in, in ways, you know, it's weird. It's like, um,

• 12:57Speaker 01

  If you're in pain for a long period of time, you know, and the pain goes away, it's what's not there anymore that sometimes you don't really think about that, but that becomes the most transformative element of an experience. So, you know, it's the response that's not there anymore to stressors. Or it's not that it's not there, but it's that you process it so much differently. So, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a creative person. I'm constantly creating new stuff, which means that I have to spend, I live largely in Joseph Campbell's abyss. Yeah, because that's the place you have to go if you want to bring anything to life.

• 13:34Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  And you have to stay there long enough for that first wave of crap to pass, for the second wave of pretty good ideas, you know, to kind of like go. And then through sort of a bit of the struggle and the deeper uncertainty, until the really good stuff starts to drop and you can build around that. And that's really uncomfortable. And I've still done that my whole life, but there's been a lot of blood in the water along the way. And one of the most powerful things about the mindfulness practice for me has been that I get to go to that place and there's a greater sense of ease while I'm there. I still feel it, you know, it's still visceral for me.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  But I'm, there's just a much deeper sense of equanimity as I move through it.

• 14:22Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. I mean, it's particularly informative, inspiring for me because, as you mentioned, you know, sort of the active meditation or the moving meditation that I experience when I'm out on a trail run or riding my bike or what have you. I will, there is certainly a mindfulness to that and there is a meditative benefit to that. But I think that it's still not the same thing as that discipline of sitting first when you wake up in the morning. And that is something I'm very far from mastering and need more in my life. And I have fits and starts with it. And when I do it, my life is better. And I'm not reacting.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Isn't it so weird?

• 15:01Rich Roll?

  And then, why can't I continue to do this? Why? And it's not like, I mean, it's, it's, it takes much more effort to go on a long trail run than it does to just sit still. And yet, I resist.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Wait, but that's the mythology. It doesn't.

• 15:17Rich Roll?

  Well, it's the story that I tell myself.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Right. Because for you, the thing that comes easy is the physicality. You know, that's like, it's baked into your soul. From the time you were a kid, you were this elite endurance athlete. You know, and there were times in your life where we know that, you know, that kind of got blown up. But that's the, like, for you, that's the thing where, like, that's your anchor. That's where you touch stone. You know, so, and that's the thing where when you pick it up, you know, even when you're coming back from a dark part of your life, that's the stuff that comes back fairly quickly for you. And, and we expect, um, training our mind from zero to have that same pickup. You know, where you're returning to something that you've done for years and it's, it's like wired into you, even if you've been away from it for a long period of time.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Attention training for most people, which is fundamentally, like mindfulness is this interesting blend of training your attention and training your mind to drop attention simultaneously. So it's like, you know, just being a screen where the breeze blows through, where you feel the sensation, but you just let it blow through. You know, and we don't train that. Nobody ever trains that in, in.

• 16:23Rich Roll?

  What is to be gained from that, Jonathan?

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Only everything. Salvation, enlightenment.

• 16:31Rich Roll?

  Sensei.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  You know, and, but the funny thing is, we expect ourselves to go from zero to Zen master, you know, or at least to be able to be like, what do you mean? Like, I'm a grown up. I've accomplished everything in my life. You know, it takes work, but I can do it. There's nothing that hasn't really hit me back that hard. Are you telling me that I can't sit and focus my attention or just, you know, like, let things go for five minutes or 10 minutes? We, we set an expectation, you know, but if you go back to the very early stages of your physicality, you know, you didn't learn to walk from zero to walk in a day or two days or a month or three months or five months. You know, and essentially it's doing the same thing because it's like, you know,

• 17:15Speaker 01

  our attention is almost an infantile level and you might even argue that with the way that we're being trained through technology now, whatever attention that we were trained in to read as a kid.

• 17:25Rich Roll?

  It's progressively, you wrote it.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Right. You know, we're being trained in shorter and shorter windows of attention. So now to actually sit there and say, okay, I'm going to train that focus for a longer period of time, our starting point is really close to zero.

• 17:37Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. And also, I think we have this idea of perfection that we hold on to that is an impediment, you know, I can't meditate because I don't know how to do it, or the minute I start doing it, my mind wanders, so forget that, you know, whether it's the diet that you're trying to stick to, or the fitness program, or whatever it is, we don't give ourselves permission to fail and to embrace that aspect of growth.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  No, and which is actually one of the fundamental parts of mindfulness practice, is that you, in theory, fail thousands of times in a sitting practice.

• 18:11Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  You know, every time a thought comes in and you kind of latch on to it, and then you find yourself, you're like, oh, I'm thinking, all right, let me just come back. You know, so you could label that a failure, or you could just say, it's part of the process.

• 18:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  You know, but you've got to allow, and that's one of the other, the secondary benefits beyond sort of allowing you to move through uncertainty and scary places with more ease. As a creator, whether you're an artist or an entrepreneur, just anybody who has this Jones to build something from nothing, we get wrapped up in the stories in our heads, really like, I'm not worthy, it's not worthy, you know, and a lot of it is just, can I curse on this show?

• 18:53Rich Roll?

  Right, you could say whatever you want, yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  It's a podcast.

• 18:55Rich Roll?

  What's the podcast where that we can't curse, right?

• 18:58Speaker 01

  That's right. So a lot of it is total bullshit, right? And we know that, and deep down we know it, but we hang on to all these storylines that we tell us, you know, a lot of times out of fear, because when we hang on to those storylines, we don't have to take action, that makes us feel better being inactive. You know, so what the practice does is every time I sit and a thought comes into me, and I notice that thought, A, it trains me to notice when I have a particular thought or storyline. B, it trains me in the process of dropping it. So I'll literally say to myself, I'll label it thinking. And with the next exhale, I'll just let it go, come back to my breath. So now you take that skill that you practice thousands of times a year in your sitting practice, and it starts to become a more and more of like a skill that you can draw on every day.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  And then when you're in your endeavors, you know, whether you're preparing for a race or whether you're like writing a book or building a company or body of work. When those voices come into your mind saying, you suck, this body of work sucks, this thing that you're building sucks. You gain a much better ability to, A, recognize that's a storyline, it's not the truth. And then B, just label it and let it go.

• 20:07Rich Roll?

  Or, or just something as simple as having an interaction that is going left on you. And somebody says something, something to you that incites you. And instead of just impulsively reacting, being able to intuit what's happening, take a breath, pause, and then respond in a mindful way that might be more productive to whatever outcome it is that you're seeking.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I mean, much more deliberate in the way that you respond to the world around you, which is, it talk about, I mean, if you want an edge in business.

• 20:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Or in life.

• 20:38Rich Roll?

  In anything.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  If you, if you can train yourself to wait that extra heartbeat and actually say, okay, what's going, it's funny, I had, this was long before I was actually meditating in a very past life as a lawyer.

• 20:48Rich Roll?

  Uh, I know, we're gonna get into that.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Something we share in common. I was, um, I was working as a G man, I was at the SEC and I was in Chicago in a brutal winter taking depositions. And, um, and I found myself in a tiny cinder block room, um, deposing a witness. And witness's counsel was, say, somebody who's very famous. And I was green, you know, like I'm a year out of, out of law school and I'm going against this legend.

• 21:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  And, um, so I said, you know, like on the record, I start asking questions, 10 minutes in, he's like, what are you talking about? This is completely irrelevant, this doesn't matter. And my first reaction is freak out. You know, like I'm, I'm a newbie, I'm an idiot, I just totally screwed up and this guy is, you know, like a titan in the industry. And then I don't know why I did this, but. For a moment, I just kinda like my mind said, okay, hit pause, zoom the lens out. What's really happening here? Is he really angry? And what I realized in that heartbeat was that he was testing me. That's all that was going on. And this was a moment where I could either respond by freaking out or just cave to what he wanted.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Or I could say, okay, this is a test. How I handle this will determine how the entire rest of this day goes. So somehow I drew on the fortitude. I don't know where this came from. He basically like, you know, I represent the SEC. I determine what's relevant. If you've got a problem with that, here's the phone, let's call the judge. He sat down. Deposition continues.

• 22:27Rich Roll?

  Right, so now he knows. He threw that test at you. If you had caved or freaked out, then he's like, I got that guy.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's like the practice, the mindfulness practice allows you to tap into that so much more easily.

• 22:40Rich Roll?

  Right, and this was years before, you know, you've embarked on what you're doing now. And so that kernel was in there the whole time. That little seed just needed to be fertilized a little bit further to flower now. So to bring it back to Joseph Campbell and the power of story and the hero's journey. Let's take it back. So you're a young man with big dreams and go to law school and find yourself at, you know, basically a very powerful white shoe law firm practicing securities law. And the world is your oyster, yes. So what happens?

• 23:20Rich Roll?

  And what was it about that experience that made you sort of rethink how you were living your life? Or what was going on?

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Well, it was a pretty traumatic entrance into that experience, actually, that kicked things off. So like I said, I started out the SEC. And then when my tour was over, I went over to this place. And within the first few days, I was put on a deal. And the deal was, we had something like 18 days to do a public offering in a foreign country, which is what you do in these firms. That's why they get hired. So, you know, the whole team goes to work and we're barely, nobody's sleeping. And we're all working to file these documents. And three or four days before everything's due, I start to feel something in the middle of my body. It doesn't feel good. I just feel off. And I'm like, well, it's because I'm not sleeping. I'm like eating garbage. I'm just stressed

• 24:12Speaker 01

  out of my mind. Everybody's like that on the team. And it gets progressively worse. Every hour it gets worse and worse and worse. I'm having trouble standing. There's this deep stabbing pain in the center of my body. And finally, I'm doubled over. We're at the printers. It's back in the days of the printer, right?

• 24:28Rich Roll?

  Oh, right. I remember.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Line checking and all this stuff, all nighters and Chinese food and chocolate.

• 24:33Rich Roll?

  You're like, I went to law school for this.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 24:36Rich Roll?

  You're basically a really overpaid proofreader.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  That's incredible. So we hit the button on the deal. We meet our deadline and I'm doubled over and I take car service home. And it gets, literally it gets fuzzy after this. I pass out for a few hours. I wake up, I realize there's something really wrong.

• 24:55Rich Roll?

  Are you, were you married at this time?

• 24:57Speaker 01

  No, I'm dating my wife at the time, but I wasn't married. And actually, we were living together then, too. So, but my wife wasn't home. She was working full time. So I, I jump in the cab over to my, my doctor. He takes a look at me. He does a quick exam. He goes kind of white. And he's like, look, you were in for a physical a couple of months ago and you were cool. Now there's a large mass inside of you. And he's like, I don't know what it is. So he like grabs me by the hand, walks me down the hall to infectious disease guy. By the end of the day, I'm checked into the hospital and being prepped for surgery. And I had a huge abscess lodged, sort of like in the middle of my abdomen, like a pelvic abscess. And I had apparently perforated intestine from the outside in.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  And it was very likely that essentially I had nothing left in my immune system. I was just on empty and I had a small infection that just exploded and took over. So, you know, knock on wood, they wheel me into surgery, everything goes well. I go home, but that's a huge wake up call for me. You know, it's like when your career, when your body rejects your career, there's something going on.

• 26:03Rich Roll?

  Right. You are, you are literally a square peg trying to jam into a round hole.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Right. And, and had I had this, you know, crazy Jones to practice law or be a partner, I'd be like, all right, let me figure this out. Let me figure out like the humane way for me to actually continue on this path. I didn't have that. You know, I looked at the partners in the firm, and this was a noble firm, really smart people doing good work. I had no desire to be them. And so those, sort of like that awakening and this experience led me to really realize that. What am I working for? So I literally went back and I stayed at the firm for another, probably the better part of a year. But from that moment on, I pretty much knew I was on my way out and I was just figuring out my next steps.

• 26:45Rich Roll?

  And the the prospect of stepping out of, outside of that protective cocoon is terrifying, especially when you've spent so many years training to be that and you've created an identity around it and it's very secure and safe. It has the imprimatur of social approval upon it. You know, your parents and your extended family can share at the cocktail party what you do and it's all very good.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Nice Jewish boy from Long Island. This is my son, Lilian.

• 27:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. And, and the idea of stepping outside of that into a complete unknown is terrifying. And that, that gets into the subject of fear that I really want to explore with you because I think you have an amazing take on it.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was definitely, it was definitely terrifying. Although what's interesting for me when I really look back is that to me, practicing law was the aberration. Because I was a lifelong artist and entrepreneur before that. And, you know, I was a kid, I had my first business that I sold in college. You know, when I was in high school, I tried being a stock boy for a short period of time. It was a disaster and I just like had my own businesses. So, and I was an artist, you know, I was always, I was painting, selling art to make money in high school.

• 28:06Rich Roll?

  So why did you go to law school to begin with?

• 28:08Speaker 01

  It's a really good question. I racked my brain trying to figure this out. There is kind of like, there are a couple of funny experiences. So, almost at the last minute, there was, it was really close between physical therapy school and law school, because I'm also, I've always been fascinated with the way the body works. And And I just, I was, I was really trying to figure out what to do. And part of the decision was that because I was so involved in my own venture during college, I basically didn't ever go to class. And I didn't do that well in college. How I got into law school, I got into, I have no idea. And I was really curious what I was capable of on intellectual level.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  And I knew that law school, even if I didn't practice, would prepare me with a set of skills, at least I thought it would give me a way to think and a way to speak and a way to sort of like move in the business world.

• 29:01Rich Roll?

  Well, I think it does that.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  It does. Yeah, it totally does. In a way that where like, no matter what I did, it would be useful to me. And so I kind of went on a mission, like my goal was to do really well in school and knock on wood, I was fortunate I did.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  But it was, it was a big aberration for me. And, you know, I figured maybe I'll practice law and I did because I was like, oh, let me see what this is about. But it was never for me about like, I feel it in my bones, I want to be a lawyer. I'm called to do this. It's funny because I came out of, I had two grandparents that were noble lawyers. You know, both, both grandfathers were, you know, full, long careers. Yeah, you know, courtroom lawyers, trial lawyers.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  And I was just not wired for it, you know? And I, and I, and the, um, the, the, the business side of the practice also has, there's a huge amount of waste and a huge amount of posturing and a huge amount of argument that goes into the practice and that.

• 30:01Rich Roll?

  Well, it's not, it's not an industry that thrives on efficiency.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 30:06Rich Roll?

  When you're billing by the hour.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Right. And, and there's this massive disincentive there, right? And like, you're never going to go out and say like, people are deliberately defrauding clients or anything like that. But you, you just, there's a culture that I think grew up over decades, you know, where there's just, and that changed profoundly in the last 10 years. It's not the same anymore. But, which I think it's a good thing, that that's changed. There's a lot more accountability and there's a lot more like, what are you actually doing? But, um, and, and I don't knock the profession at all. I mean, like I said, there, there are plenty of lawyers doing incredible work in the world and, and operating ethically and really rising to an incredible standard and serving. But what I found was that. There is, um, I wanted to create more directly.

• 30:49Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  I also saw my clients, I was a hedge fund lawyer, um, and a securities lawyer. So I, I represented the people who were out there raising other people's money and then doing big stuff.

• 30:58Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  And I increasingly wanted to be my client.

• 31:03Rich Roll?

  Right, I can understand that. Um, and yet, at the same time, despite having this sort of burgeoning awareness, it took a health crisis to really trigger you into actually doing something about that. I mean, if had that not happened, maybe you would have, I mean, you would have inevitably probably found your way out of it, but it might've taken a lot longer.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, either that, or maybe, you know, it's interesting. I, I sometimes, every once in a while, I'll go back and be like, if I had found, if I had found a mentor in that firm, or if I had gone into a different part of the firm that was maybe more, um, creative and constructive on some level, in a way that just resonated with the way that I like to create and construct, maybe I'd still be a lawyer. But, um, so much of the fundamental part is that you were, you're standing in the shoes of your client and, um, and arguing on their behalf. And I didn't want to be a proxy for someone else.

• 31:55Rich Roll?

  Right, your, your entire life is premised upon being a proxy.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I want to be the, the principal.

• 32:00Rich Roll?

  It's almost like a shadow artist capacity, in a Julia Cameron kind of way.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and some people love that and they're built for it. And, and you know, like, if that's you, rock on, um, it just wasn't me.

• 32:10Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 32:22Rich Roll?

  So you make the break, and the first step is, uh, is physical, physical trainer, right?

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, the first step is, um, six figures in Armani suits to 12 bucks an hour. Tights and running shoes. Yeah, well, actually, it was first, it was a little studio on the Upper East Side because I wanted to learn the business. So there was this one studio that charged an ungodly amount of money just to say you belonged.

• 32:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Our clients were celebrities and socialites and captains of industry. And but I wanted to learn, this was a model that I knew was working phenomenally well as a business. And I wanted to learn the industry from the bottom up. So I could have gone and found my, you know, a job as a manager somewhere. I want to know the the the social dynamic at the most basic level of service. So I can understand what's wrong with it and then figure out how to build it better.

• 33:11Rich Roll?

  So you're already thinking like an entrepreneur.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't not think like that.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  You know, I look around, it's so funny. People say to me, they're like, ah, you know, there's nothing I'm passionate about. There's no like, can't figure out what to do. And I'm just like, oh, man.

• 33:26Rich Roll?

  Open your eyes.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Right, you know, it's like if you literally just sit and observe, you know, there is so much possibility everywhere that you like, even the deepest of the doldrums, 2008, 2009, 2010. You know, there were millions of people in pain in this country, and I get that. But there were millions of other people salivating at the possibility that was being unlocked with that mess. I mean, there's no such thing as disruption without possibility. It doesn't exist. So if you find yourself in a state of disruption, your job becomes, how do I find the possibility? Because it is always there.

• 34:06Rich Roll?

  So from personal.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so so.

• 34:09Rich Roll?

  Yoga studio.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so so I I stayed there for about six months and then opened my own facility after that, which was the one out in New Jersey. And and we built that and grew pretty quickly. And and I had a partner in that. And then after about two and a half years, I was really yearning to be back in the city and and do something a little bit different. So I sold my interest in that company. And I was living in Hell's Kitchen, married, three month old baby. And just walked by a place where I just saw, I mean, this was like the second story. Hundred and fifteen year old building on Ninth Avenue in Hell's Kitchen. And and there was a picture window, like the whole front of the building was just glass. And I looked up, I'm like, oh, I wonder if that's as cool inside as it is outside.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  There's a different sign. So I, you know, I go upstairs, check it out and it's like a burned out crack den inside.

• 34:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  It's horrible, but you know, it's got good bones. So, um, so my wife comes, we take a look at it. I'm like, huh. And I had been exploring yoga as a business around then too, because, um, I'd sort of started to develop my own practice a bit. And, um, again, I saw this, I saw a gap. It's like some people, it's a movie, I see dead people. I see gaps. I see, I see needs that aren't filled everywhere I look. And what I saw was that people coming out of my background from that world, you know, 30, 40, 50 something year old unfit, sedentary, um, walking into a, one of the other studios that was around New York City

• 35:40Speaker 01

  back then, terrifying, terrifying. Most people feel that way in big box gyms too, but in a yoga studio, it's amped to another level because it's dark, there's weird music, there's incense, you're barefoot, you're unstretchy.

• 35:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's not, it's not accessible for the average dude especially.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:58Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 35:59Speaker 01

  It's way better now.

• 36:00Rich Roll?

  It's a little, yeah, it's different now, but like back.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  This is 2001.

• 36:03Rich Roll?

  Right, right. I mean, that's around the time when I started exploring it too.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:07Rich Roll?

  And I would go primarily initially because there were more beautiful women in a small square footed space than anywhere else. Yeah. And, uh, maybe, you know, a couple of gay guys and like maybe one other straight guy. And I was like, this is a good, you know, like I, I was able to overcome that barrier and do it. But, but I would notice like there's no guys here and I would feel so great. And I would tell my friends, but it's a leap, you know, for most people. So.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's intimidating. So, so, so the question in my head was, can I create a solution here that preserves all the power of the practice, but lowers barriers to participation?

• 36:44Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  So, um, in the beginning, we actually stripped a lot of the spirituality out of it. Um, and we stripped a lot of the. The sort of like the the setting type of thing. So we didn't burn incense. Why didn't I burn incense? Because I know that eighty percent of the women, the people back then at least, were female. And that women have a much higher likelihood of migraines and that a lot of women have scent triggered migraines. And so that there were a, you know, a segment of women who were avoiding yoga studios because of the incense. So I wanted this to be a haven. You know, we stripped out chanting in the beginning. Because a lot of people were terrified of that. They had no, it's like, what is this a cult?

• 37:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Of course, it is a cult. We know that now.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  So it was a very sanitized version in the beginning. We, it's what's funny is over time, we actually kind of reclaimed a lot of that. You know, as we moved our community back into it. But when we started out, it was very modern, kind of like, you know, like a Japanese, simple style place. But nicely designed and, and the day we opened, or the week we opened, there was a, there was an article about us. And the Village Joyce was back then was, you know, like the cool, hot newspaper in New York. And the headline on the article, I still remember this, was Yuppie Yoga Comes to New York. And I'm like, oh, man, yuppie yoga. That night, the door flies open and there's, you know, like a dozen women like, is this a yuppie yoga place?

• 38:12Speaker 01

  And I'm like, well, yes, yes, it is.

• 38:15Rich Roll?

  It's like that scene in Wolf of Wall Street when Jordan Belfort's so upset about the Forbes piece. And then about being sort of maligned. And then the next day, there's, everybody wants a job.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Right. And it's like, you know, it validated everything. We were busy really fast. And we, and which is interesting because the back, the backdrop here that I didn't share was that I signed the lease on a Florida building in Hell's Kitchen the day before nine eleven in New York City. And so the fact that I actually, we went through with this and actually opened, built it out and opened it, you know, like eight weeks later. It was touch and go from the beginning. And I was sitting there, I'm married, I own a home, I have a three month old baby. I signed, you know, like a floor lease, a six year lease for a Florida building in New York. And like the lower third of Manhattan is bombed out.

• 39:04Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  And I'm just sitting there saying, what the hell am I doing? Like, am I putting my family at risk? Like, how can I justify this? Everything is crashing and burning, business in New York City. Was a disaster.

• 39:17Rich Roll?

  And yet you could make the argument that a yoga studio is a safe haven for healing, that you know, people can go to and start to piece together how they feel about what's transpired.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's exactly what I came around to and and that became a huge driver. So initially, you know, I had planned on launching this thing like a gym and doing like a big altus and scrap all that stuff because the mood in New York was radically different. But we were we were actually located two avenue blocks away from the pier where a lot of the relief workers were being staged. So we just sent people down there saying, look, just come like, don't pay like, we're not looking, just come.

• 39:53Rich Roll?

  Right, it's free yoga.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, everyone was just wandering around the city, looking for a place to be and looking for some way to serve and looking for just something to do. So we just off, we opened up the doors and we said like, this is, this is just the right thing. This is what we need to do. This is how we need to serve now. And and people came, you know, and people responded and people came regularly and there was, you know, a lot of new friendships. There's a lot of crying. There's a lot of moving and breathing. But yeah, I realized really quickly that the city never needed this more than at that moment, which led to another interesting thing, which is the first time, which was a major story in the New York Times, the front cover of the jobs section in the New

• 40:39Speaker 01

  York Times, where the the story was about businesses that had inadvertently taken a bump because of nine eleven.

• 40:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  And we were featured in that story. So I was like, you know, goodness, badness, hey, mom, I'm in the New York Times. But I felt really weird about being in that story.

• 41:01Rich Roll?

  A lot of weird conflicting emotions.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Right. Because it's like, I don't want this sense of like, I'm predatory or I designed it this way. It's just, you know. So it was it was interesting. Thankfully, a year later, they did like a third page profile in the business section and kind of wiped that one clean.

• 41:17Rich Roll?

  But at the time, really, your your your vision was to kind of expand Sonic Yoga and be kind of a yoga, you know, sort of a yoga entrepreneur, like a YogaWorks model, right?

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:27Rich Roll?

  So where did that kind of, where did you start to change your mind about that direction?

• 41:32Speaker 01

  So we actually went through the entire franchise process. And I, you know, hired franchise lawyer, filed and which is incredibly complicated and expensive process, by the way.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  And the goal was to see if we could actually roll out the first like national kind of like very standardized yoga franchise. And we actually, we did two test franchises, kind of like friends and family to kind of see how it would work and also see how I felt about scaling this model in this way. And what I realized pretty quickly was that I didn't like doing it. It was, it's not the easiest model to scale. I mean, the only one who I know who's done it really, really, really effectively and really well is Core Power Yoga out of Colorado. And it's very, very systematic. I mean, everything is dialed in and systematized and on a very high level.

• 42:28Rich Roll?

  Right, just plug and play.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then there's Bikram, which is interesting.

• 42:33Rich Roll?

  That's a whole other sticky wicket.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Right. And then there are big beasts like Yoga Works, which, you know, and I knew those guys started two years after, or a year or two after us, actually. And their plan was very different. It was let's just, let's buy up a whole bunch of pre-existing studios and see if we can roll them up into a single brand. And they really struggled a lot in the beginning. It's only like, like a lot more recently that they've actually started to, at least from my knowledge, dial in the model better. It was sort of like the bigger box.

• 43:03Rich Roll?

  Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I only know, just, I mean, living in Los Angeles, they just suddenly, all the yoga studios were owned by Yoga Works, like almost overnight.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the original.

• 43:13Rich Roll?

  Standardized, right.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  But they, I mean, that was started by the two guys who started the Ask You search engine.

• 43:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  You know, and they went back and they got something like 10 million bucks in VC from the original guys who funded them with a quest to do that. But within, it was like a year or two, they were out.

• 43:31Rich Roll?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, because it is, for the amount of work in that space, you know, the multiples on a venture-backed business, it's brutally hard to actually recoup that or sell, you know, because if you're venture-backed, at some point, the assumption is you're exiting.

• 43:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  You know, and you're hopefully exiting at a very large multiple. Yoga business doesn't really work that way.

• 43:56Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So they got out soon. And so you're starting to have this realization. And I think like, you know, at the same time that I said, you know, you have this sort of intuitive mindfulness aspect to your nature, there's this natural born educator or teacher, or, you know, somebody who wants to extend the hand and help guide people, which I think is yoga is about, you know, at its core. And maybe that's what drew you to some aspect of being in that business. But the franchise, that aspect of the business is very divorced from that, right?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  It is. Yeah. So eventually, we, I ended up just folding that whole thing. I learned a lot of lessons. I lost a lot of money. People never talk about their failures. That was a big freaking failure. And but it was a failure in that it didn't work the way that I hoped it would work. But at the end, and I lost a chunk of money. And it took us a couple of years to build back up to where we were. But it was also tremendous growth experience for me. I mean, I learned about systemization and all these different things on a whole different, I learned about the franchise system. I learned, I did a deep analysis of who else was out there. And I learned, I knew this, but it smacked me back

• 45:10Speaker 01

  to the importance of focusing on your core business and not sacrificing that in the name of rapid growth or scaling. And that is one of the single biggest mistakes that I see entrepreneurs making across the board now.

• 45:22Rich Roll?

  Just leaping too soon, trying to expand too quickly.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, or trying to expand something that really shouldn't be expanded.

• 45:27Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. And so where does that leave you in terms of what you're going to be doing next?

• 45:31Speaker 01

  So, you know, from there, I came back to the core business and we kind of doubled down and we started to grow again and did really nicely. But my entrepreneurial ADD eventually takes me in different directions.

• 45:44Rich Roll?

  It creeps back up.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, we had, we started a media division that kept me interested for a while. We're putting out DVDs and stuff like that. And how that got started is a whole nother story. But

• 45:56Speaker 01

  I won't go there actually because we have limited time.

• 45:58Rich Roll?

  We'll go as long as you want.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Alright, quick funny story.

• 46:03Rich Roll?

  That's up to you.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  So, we weren't supposed to have a media division. I was looking to bring some, um, some attention to the business and I wanted national attention. So, um, I figured, well, what can I tie this to? Can I tie yoga to weight loss? Hmm. I looked around, there are a whole bunch of claims, but there was no research. So I approached the head of Adelphi University's Human Performance Lab. I said, hey, you want to run a study on how many calories, the metabolic cost of vinyasa yoga? Kind of laughed at me, is like, so I convinced him to do a pilot study just on me. So I go in there, they wire me up with, you know, like I've got a mask and bite plates and tubes coming out of me and they're measuring my breath every six seconds. You know this process? Well, um, but instead of on a treadmill, like I'm doing a yoga sequence with this. There are like guys on either side of me wrangling the tubes out of my way and like getting

• 46:49Speaker 01

  knocked over. And at the end of 15 minutes, like, you know, everyone's standing there saying, holy crap, this is yoga?

• 46:57Rich Roll?

  Oh wow, so that data is coming back in your favor.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're like, how quickly can we get this study together? So I brought, you know, so we got the whole thing together. I brought a whole bunch of people out to the university, ran them through the study and then we did full graded maximal exercise tests and lactic blood and stuff, everything. And then they presented at the ACSM annual meeting the following year. So legit study that showed how much. But as soon as they said yes, I reached out to the, um, fitness editors of the top fitness magazines who are all in New York and said, who wants an exclusive? So one said yes and she actually convinced me and the study lead to be in the study. She was the subject. So, um, the results come out great and, uh, I get a call from her like in the beginning of the summer and she's like, hey, listen, you know, we're going to run a little thing on, um, on this.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  It's too bad you guys, you know, you're a small local studio. We've got like five million readers. This was for Self Magazine. And, um, I was like, you know, funny you mentioned that. She's like, what? I said, well, you know, we got a video, um, and it's in post-production. She's like, what's it called? Vinyasa Heat Live. I said, well, how much? 1995, like where can you get it on our website? She's like, great, we'll put it in. So I hang up the phone and I look at like my, the studio manager, I'm like, we gotta make a video.

• 48:13Rich Roll?

  You just came up with that on the spot.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Totally, totally. It did not exist. But I'm like, I can't let this opportunity go.

• 48:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  How hard could it be to make a video, right? We'll figure it out.

• 48:23Rich Roll?

  This is your sales funnel.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. So, we're like just hustling and pulling together people and low and behold, like, you know, a pallet of videos drops in front of the studio in New York City in Hell's Kitchen like a week before the magazine hits.

• 48:36Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  We blow them out and like we just started, you know, and that starts our media division. We release a whole bunch of additional things.

• 48:44Rich Roll?

  So, yeah, so you're experiencing this, I mean, a new way of affecting people in a viral way through the video.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it lets us go beyond our immediate community. That said, and operating a lot in the online world these days too, I still have such a strong orientation towards face-to-face service. Because digital just doesn't get you there. It gets you there if you're stuck somewhere in the middle of the country or somewhere else in the world where you just can't get face-to-face, awesome, that's the next best thing, you know, let's go digital. But if you've got any way to access people face-to-face in a room, you know, look somebody in the eye, to breathe, hug, move, whatever it is, nothing that beats that. It's a lot of the reason why we do what we do with Good Life Project, we get to, I guess, at some point.

• 49:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we're gonna get to that.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Anyway, seven years into this journey at Sonic Yoga, I'm restless enough, I've started to really reconnect with the love of writing. And so my first book, so, and I want to really just take some time and start to focus on that and focus on the next adventure. So, so I sell the yoga center and move into the, sort of like the next big phase, which is writing in the online world.

• 49:57Rich Roll?

  And as a result of writing, writing this book, which was, it's called Turning Fear and Doubt into Fuel for Brilliance, right? That was, was that the first book?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  That's the second one.

• 50:05Rich Roll?

  Or that's the second one? What was the first one?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  The first one was Career Renegade.

• 50:07Rich Roll?

  Career Renegade, okay. And that's really kind of your story of accessing this more authentic version of yourself and breaking out of this system.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and building a career around something that's more meaningful.

• 50:19Rich Roll?

  And as a result of that, you learn all this stuff about the publishing world, right?

• 50:22Speaker 01

  A ton of stuff.

• 50:23Rich Roll?

  And how this works.

• 50:25Rich Roll?

  Some of, some of these things I've learned as a result. Um, and then you write the second book and so you're, you're picking up all of these experiences. And along the way, I think you're really tapping into this, um, idea of being of service. You know, I think it's sort of, that goes hand in hand with the mindfulness with you. It's like, how can I be of service? And everything is about, you know, here's a need that people have and here's how I can serve that. Right?

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's funny, the original name for my blog before I just, you know, decided to do it with any other name was, was Awake at the Wheel.

• 51:00Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  And, um, I think a common thread with almost everything that I do is that I like to create opportunities for people to wake up. And that probably includes me too. You know, I'm, I'm, I don't hold myself out as a guru or sage or anything like that. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm along the path with everybody else, stumbling and fumbling and sometimes doing better, sometimes not. But, um, I was a DJ in college and I got my first taste of the ability to take 500 people on a dance floor in a club for five hours and bring them on a transcendent journey. Where they, they enter in state A and they leave in state B.

• 51:40Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  And that has never left me. It's what I did in a yoga class. I mean, when I taught yoga, my goal was somebody comes in, in state A, I have 90 minutes to deliver them into state B and allow them to leave in a different place. You know, so how can I create opportunities for people to do that in the short term? How can I create them on a sustained basis? And how can I, I create opportunities for people to be able to do that for themselves and not have to rely on me or anyone else?

• 52:07Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  To bring that into their lives every single day. So the mindfulness plays into that because it's like, the more mindful you are of what's going on in your world, the more dialed into sort of like the reality of, um, of possibility you are.

• 52:21Rich Roll?

  Hmm. And so where does the, where does the teachings start to creep in? Like where does this sort of advocacy, whether it's through your website, your blog posts, your books, like where does that start to creep in as being kind of a mission for you?

• 52:36Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess you could probably say it actually really started to creep in, um, in the yoga world. You know, when we started the studio, there were two of us. I wasn't really supposed to be a teacher. I had no business being a teacher. So, but there were two of us. And we got busy fast.

• 52:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  So, all of a sudden.

• 52:53Rich Roll?

  Do it all, clean the bathroom and.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Everything. I literally, you know, I had a lot of fitness world experience and I had been teaching the fitness world. So I kind of, but, but, um, so I literally went to, um, I went to Amazon and I, and I bought the top 10 selling yoga, uh, videos and memorized all the routines.

• 53:10Rich Roll?

  Is that what you, that was your own self-styled teacher training?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  So, so for the first six months until I actually like went and got trained and like really, you know, I was doing one day on Baron Bakti, one day on Rodney, one day on this and like rotating and people were like.

• 53:22Rich Roll?

  All the Gaiam videos.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Wow, like you're really good. Like the way you sequence is just, and I'm like.

• 53:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Why, thank you.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  But yeah, you know, I, there's something about being in a room of people and, um, to me, figuring out stuff that's hard to figure out is really cool, but probably turning around and if I can in some way, share that with other people and, and serve as some sort of partial unlock key for them. I think that's more fun for me.

• 53:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I would say you're, you're a student of the problem and a student of the solution. And then you have this aptitude for translating that into tools that people can use.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Man, I would probably agree with that.

• 54:05Rich Roll?

  Is that agreeable?

• 54:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 54:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  I'm down with that.

• 54:08Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. So, so let's get into Good Life Project.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:13Rich Roll?

  I love Good Life Project. You've done such an amazing, uh, job with it, um, and for, you know, people that are listening, uh, you should definitely check it out. I mean, how many episodes do you have now?

• 54:25Speaker 01

  I think we're around, uh, it's hard for me to keep track actually, because we film about three or four months ahead. So I know what we have in the can versus public. Um, I think public, we're about, uh, closing in on two years of episodes. So we're probably like seventies, seventy something.

• 54:41Rich Roll?

  Seventy something, right.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Five, six seasons now.

• 54:44Rich Roll?

  They're all videos and with a very high production quality. And now you've, more recently, you've been putting up, up on iTunes just in the audio format, right? So you can, you can find it as a podcast, but I'd strongly urge everybody to watch the video versions of that, just to see the interaction and. They're really wonderful and what I love is the kind of wide variety of guests. You know, people coming in with all different kinds of experiences that, you know, seemingly are unrelated and yet there's a common through line. And if you could sort of articulate what that through line is, I mean, how would you describe that?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really funny you ask because it's something I've been trying to really think about. Like, what is this? And like, very recently, we just aired, um, we just aired a, uh, this montage, like a mashup video that somebody, actually a viewer, made for me as a gift. He went through, he went through like the first year of episodes and pulled out everybody's answer to a particular question and edited into this really beautiful four-minute thing. And, um, and when he presented that to me, I was, I was kind of floored because I, I sat there and for the first time, I was like, holy crap, this is, this is real. You know, this is like turning into a body of work. And I never really looked at it like big, sort of like bigger picture like that.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  And, um, and I start to really kind of say like, well, what is this? What am I actually doing here? And I think there are two things going on. One is, there's a really strong focus on telling the stories of ordinary people doing extraordinary things, hero's journey, like the ordinary person's hero's journey. And that's one of the reasons why I don't just select one type of person from one industry. You know, I want to show local moms, I want to show artists and illustrators and captains of industry and athletes and, um, because there's a commonality in, in the stories of, um, ordinary people struggling with very real demons and then finding a way through.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Um, and that's really, really, really powerful, which leads to the second realization of what this show actually is. And it's, um, it's becoming a body of evidence. You know, so you have so many people that walk through life saying, well, you know, I can't do that. You know, and because nobody around, maybe, and maybe they surround themselves with a whole bunch of people just like them, where everyone's kind of like trapped themselves in a box that very often they've built, or their families have built and they've never decided to build their own, or their friends, whatever it may be, or their local society. And their life is defined by, I can't. And they never cast those assumptions. So part of what I'm realizing

• 57:23Speaker 01

  is this thing that we're building is, it's a body of evidence where we have enough of a cross-section of people in this growing, like, library of humanity, where anybody can show up now and probably find five variations of themselves with similar or harder struggles. And these people have figured out how to do really extraordinary things with their lives. And it makes it increasingly difficult for then you to go back and say, I can't.

• 57:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that story starts to erode. And I think that, excuse me, I have a frog in my throat, that there is nothing more powerful than the average person sharing openly and authentically and allowing themselves to be vulnerable. The inherent power of that to communicate to another person and transform their lives is, it's inestimable. You know, you cannot put a quantum value on that. And it's different from saying, do these five things. Here's your list, you know, of this. It's just, share from the heart, you know, tell us what happened. Where did you go wrong? What did you do right? And, and that's, I

• 58:34Rich Roll?

  think, what's really resonating with people. And I think it begs a bigger question of media in general, and what we've kind of grown accustomed to as a society of the soundbite and the sort of unreliable news story and this TMZ culture and this deep yearning and desire that's almost primal, in a Joseph Campbell kind of way, for that real human story, that connection.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people have, have walked away from the possibility of, of being the hero in their own lives, or in the lives of other people. Yeah, and hero, we don't, like, we're not talking about superhero thing. We're talking about ordinary person leaning into that thing that calls them deeply but scares them most. And, and, you know, like Joseph Campbell said, you know, like,

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, wherever your abyss is, there lies your treasure. And we walk away from that because we're terrified. We don't have the tools to handle it, but also we just don't believe that the possibility really exists on the other side. You know, and, and so we surround ourselves with people who believe that too, because it makes us feel comfortable about not acting.

• 59:50Rich Roll?

  Right, and you create affirmament around that story.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, and it's ordinary people, like you said, it's, that's the stuff that matters most, you know, we have some higher profile people, but, you know, I wanna, I wanna tell relatable stories.

• 1:00:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, on my podcast, I mean, the, the most popular episodes have been the ones that nobody's heard of. It's just a guy who, you know, sort of decided to course correct in a certain way, and that, I think that strikes an emotional chord with people that, that allows them to tap in and relate and find strength in that. But, you know, behind all of this, when we're talking about the power of story, for better or worse, the way that we can create affirmament around our lives using a story that doesn't necessarily serve us, we're in this fascinating time where we've never had more access to amazing information, you know, the, the Good Life Project is two keystrokes away from everybody at any given moment, and they can tap into that.

• 1:00:49Rich Roll?

  And yet, we've never been more kind of, in a, in a more fear-based culture in terms of mainstream media and the messaging that we're just inundated with throughout the day. It's like, fear, fear, fear, be very afraid, here's what's happening around the world, you know, lock yourself in your house and, you know, you're gonna lose all your money, or whatever it is, the implicit sort of, whether it's through Madison Avenue or, or elsewhere, or the people that you surround yourself with, it's very easy to become entrapped.

• 1:01:30Rich Roll?

  I think that you have some really great wisdom to impart when it comes to how we approach fear, or rethinking how we imagine fear and the role that that plays in our life.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like a couple of parts to it. You know, one is, is the fear legit or not? Or are you reacting to a circumstance that's real or not? And can you change that circumstance? And even if you could change it, should you? You know, we tend to, we recoil, we have a physical response to stimuli in our environment that would create fear. You know, so we react to it. So the fear is not the actual circumstance, it's our response to it. You know, and it's conditioned, it's not a voluntary response. We don't be like, oh, I choose fear.

• 1:02:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  It's like, I'm like, oh, I choose fear.

• 1:02:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's the lizard brain.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Right. You know, it's literally, it's wired into us at this point. You know, the problem being that a lot of the, a lot of that wiring was, was, has been passed down through generations, generations, generations, and was originally wired in response to real threats to life and limb. You know, but that same exact response now tends to pop up in response to all sorts of things, all day long, in a fairly safe world, that just challenge us to step out of that very narrowly defined box that we call comfort. You know, so as soon as we take a step out and we don't know how something's going to end, we have a fear response, and that's wired into us. And there's some interesting data, I mean, there's fMRI studies that show that when you make a decision that moves you closer

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  to a place of the unknown, uncertainty, the amygdala in the brain lights up and causes this fight or flight response, courses, you know, like signals and chemicals through us and make us feel physically uneasy. We don't want to feel that way. So we do what we need to do to not feel that way anymore. And that's generally one of two things. We either race so fast through something to just get it done with, that we ignore incredible opportunities along the way, or we backpedal. We become paralyzed, or we just completely back out of something until we don't feel that anymore. What we do when we do that is we shut down the possibility in our lives, rather than saying, okay, here's a circumstance.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  What does this actually mean to me? You know, like, is there a possibility if I move through this on the other side that would move me from point A to point B where point B is profoundly better?

• 1:03:59Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  You know, more connected to people, more connected to service, more connected to nature, to world, to source, whatever it may be for you. You know, and because if, if, if you can answer, yes, there's a possibility of that, if I stay in this place, then the question becomes, how do I quit myself to be here long enough to see if I can make that happen?

• 1:04:20Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  And we don't do that. You know, nobody trains that skill.

• 1:04:24Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  We just assume that you either have it, you know, like the great entrepreneurs, the great business builders, the great artists, you know, people just assume that you're wired somehow in a way that allows you to be in that place.

• 1:04:35Rich Roll?

  Right, well, they have the gene, you know, they have the thing, right.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  And to a certain extent, some people may have that, but most of the greatest creators of our times don't. You know, there are all sorts of things that they build into their lives that allow them to be in that place with enough baseline equanimity to be okay. They may not be, and you're like, la di da, everything's roses, but enough to, to be okay in that place and to process, to turn, you could turn, turning fear into fuel, you know, rather than into paralysis or destruction.

• 1:05:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not the removal of fear, it's your response to the fear. It's whether that's going to create a paralysis or whether you, you're going to have the wherewithal to walk through it nonetheless.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:17Rich Roll?

  Without knowing the result. And I think that, um, yeah, when you see people doing that, we make this assumption that they're not afraid. Maybe they're afraid, they're just doing it anyway. They're giving themselves permission to fail.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:28Rich Roll?

  They're not allowing that to be a barrier to action. And I think one thing that helps me is to, it goes back to story and the stories that we tell ourselves. We tell ourselves, this is really scary, and if I go through this, all these bad things might happen, right? But to also, on the flip side of that, look at the things that we think are secure in our life. Oh, this job is secure, or my marriage is secure, or all these sorts of things. And to realize those things are as impermanent as anything else. And that, that, that story about security revolving around that is just as illusory as the story you're telling yourself about the fear. And if, you know, something like nine 11 can put that into perspective, or, you know, sometimes it takes a jarring event for that. But to be able to walk through your day and realize. It's all a story.

• 1:06:14Rich Roll?

  It's all, it only has the power that you allow it to have.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, and that is a huge realization. You know, people ask the what if I fail question nonstop and that allows them the luxury of not doing anything, of not taking action. Because if you keep telling that story, then you get to rationalize inaction. You know, but what if you ask two more questions? You know, what if I do nothing? And if you're in like a sideways slide and you extend that out five, 10, 15 years, the what if I do nothing scenario realistically painted is almost always the most horrifying possible outcome. Right? But people don't ask that. You know, it's like, what if I'm putting on two pounds a year? What if I'm getting less and less healthy? What if I'm getting more estranged from my kids? What if I, I'm less, you know, like less and less connected to the work that I'm doing in the world now?

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  And what if I extend that five years and 10 years? And there is no neutral. There's no sideways. You're only going up or down. There's no sideways in life. You know, so like, and if you don't apply energy to go up, you're going down. You know, so what if you take that and it just gets worse and worse and worse 10, 15 years later? You know, everything's gonna suck. That's a horrible scenario if you're at a point where things aren't going well and you don't do anything to change your trajectory. You know, and then you've got to ask.

• 1:07:28Rich Roll?

  But it's the devil you know.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:30Rich Roll?

  And that's what keeps people stuck.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  Exactly. And the other thing is that they don't put equal emphasis on a third question, which is what if I succeed?

• 1:07:37Rich Roll?

  That's the one that gets me. That's the one I'm, I think if I'm honest, that's the one that scares me the most.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Scares a lot of people.

• 1:07:45Rich Roll?

  And I think it doesn't get enough discussion.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  No, I totally agree. And I, I'm, there's, I think about that on a regular basis because I have this dual, I have like a split personality where I want to do really deeply meaningful work and be hyper-present in the lives of my wife and daughter. At the same time, I want to do something big. That changes a lot of lives, you know? And.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  So one of my big questions is, you know, so the question becomes, how will, can I succeed on that level without it blowing up the things that I claim to hold dear in my life right now? And so I'm asking the question, what if I succeed on a positive way? You're like, what will this potentially add to my life or to other people's lives? But also, I'm also looking at that scenario and saying, can I actually build something on that scale and keep what I say I hold dear? And it's an important question to ask. And, and, but a lot of times, people create doom and gloom scenarios around that too, that shut them down. Like, you know, most people associate the doom and gloom scenario with the what if I fail? But there are other people that go to the other extreme also and say, if I succeed, you know, all the comfort that I love and all this, it's going to go away.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  And people will hate me and attack me because I'm so popular now and I'm so successful. These things may all be true, you know, but you have to frame it in the bigger context of, well, okay, the same way when you ask the what if I fail question, you paint that scenario and then you say, how will I recover? You ask the what if I succeed question? And then if there are negatives, potential negatives attached to that, well, then how will I work to resolve those? You know, and that's like, you gotta go deeper into all of those questions.

• 1:09:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And I think in terms of going deeper, all of these, this entire decision tree about whether you're going to walk through fear and whether you're going to be a career renegade or all of these things, really have to begin and end with that inside inquiry, you know, because you have to be in a place spiritually, mentally, emotionally, where you can trust your instincts to be guiding you in a proper, healthy direction for yourself. And if you're not, then, then you very well may be spending a lot of energy doing the wrong thing for yourself. So it goes back to mindfulness. It goes back to developing a practice of getting to know who you are

• 1:10:12Rich Roll?

  and, and asking those hard questions and spending the time. You cannot shortcut that aspect of the journey, I don't think. Because if you do, it's all gonna, it all could potentially be a fool's errand, right?

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, no doubt. I mean, self-knowledge is one of the, it's funny, you know, like in this world, you use the phrase personal development or self-help and people like, ah, shenanigans, you know, that's people trying to take my money and sell me books and courses. And for some, they're probably right. But the but the concept of self-knowledge, no matter how you get there, the fundamental concept of, do I know myself? You know, that's an inquiry that very few people in Western society explore, but a lot of people in Eastern society explore. And the thing is, how can you align your actions with your essence if you have no idea what your essence is?

• 1:11:05Rich Roll?

  And I think most people don't.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:11:08Rich Roll?

  You know, and so for somebody who's listening out there, who maybe maybe there's somebody listening who's in that place. I mean, what what are some initial things that somebody could do to begin that process, to create some inertia and energy around that?

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, I think one of the initial things is actually some form of meditation practice or mindfulness practice, because a big part of it is just if you still the waters enough, a lot of big stuff just bubbles through it. And you all of a sudden start to just become aware. But also really starting to ask yourself, what matters to me? You're like really asking yourself, who matters to me? What matters to me? Who do I want to serve in this world and how? And big question is for me, a big sort of inquiry for me these days has become the question, what lights me up? You know, and I'm constantly thinking about that. What is it, you know?

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  And when I get a visceral hit, you know, when I get an intuitive hit that says, yeah, like you're responding to something, like what is it about it? And is it just that activity? Or can I kind of identify what are the qualities of what's going on here? Because if I can identify those underlying qualities, then I can transpose them into all sorts of different situations. And I can get that same hit in 50, 100 different things. I'm not locked into this one thing. And that's where a lot of my work has been.

• 1:12:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, interesting. I mean, I feel like you almost, for me, I have to get, I have to protect that child inside of me. I have to get into a childlike state because it was it was before all of, you know, it was before this social construct was imposed upon me, you know, where you you have that joy and that that sort of unedited kind of sense of yourself that over time gets eroded or repressed just by nature of growing up. And I have to tap back into that in order to access that part of me, you know, that I forgot or that. Has gone by the wayside.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Cause I think we know a lot of this when we're like, you know,

• 1:13:11Rich Roll?

  That's the thing. Right. Exactly.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  We walk away from it.

• 1:13:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And so one of the questions I always ask people is, well, what did you like to do when you were a little kid? What, what did you naturally gravitate towards that maybe somebody at some point said enough of that? Right?

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, no doubt.

• 1:13:25Rich Roll?

  And how can we find more of that for you now?

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and then you could take it a level deeper and say, what was it about it? That lit you up? You know, but we, we don't go there. And I think part of it also has to do with the fact that society generally defines success as money, um, power and stuff. You know, rather than connection and vitality.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  You know, vision and, and, and contribution. Those are the things that matter.

• 1:13:55Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I know that those are the things that give my life meaning and happiness and fulfillment, not in like happiness in a greeting card kind of way, but a sense of purpose and direction and groundedness. So.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, me too.

• 1:14:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm not entirely there yet. Like I said in the beginning.

• 1:14:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please believe me.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Process.

• 1:14:18Rich Roll?

  I'm not standing on any pedestal here with any of this.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  On any given day, you'll find me somewhere in that spectrum.

• 1:14:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, it's a, it's a journey and the journey is in many ways I, I go, I have to go three steps backward and one step forward and that's my typical experience and the work is in to give yourself permission to do that and to keep yourself in the game.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:43Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  No, absolutely. Like we were saying before we went on, like, think long game.

• 1:14:48Rich Roll?

  Long game. Right. So what is your long game?

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  Be happy. To, to do meaningful work, to, um, spend as much time as possible.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Doing things that light me up with people I can't get enough of.

• 1:15:07Rich Roll?

  I think you're already doing that.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Large chunks of the time, I know. But like I said, it's still a work in progress.

• 1:15:14Rich Roll?

  Right, we all are. Well, I think that's a good place to end it.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:15:19Rich Roll?

  Thanks so much for doing that.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

• 1:15:22Rich Roll?

  So if people want to connect with Jonathan, the best way to do that is your website's JonathanFields.com. They can go to GoodLifeProject.com. You're on Twitter at JonathanFields.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Yep, pretty much just my name everywhere.

• 1:15:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, anywhere.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Those are fine.

• 1:15:38Rich Roll?

  Just Google him, people. You'll find him. It's impossible not to. And I urge all you guys to check him out. He's been a great source of knowledge and inspiration in my life and in my wife's life. She says to say hello.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 1:15:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, she's been getting a lot out of the program, Revolution U. So, thank you for that. And thanks for your time, man.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

• 1:16:02Rich Roll?

  Peace. Blance.

• 1:16:10Rich Roll?

  All right, everybody. That's our show. I hope you enjoyed it. I don't know about you, but to me, there's something about that guy, something about Jonathan that just makes you want to sit down and hang out with him and just listen to what he has to say. And it's so cool for me that the podcast opens up the door so that I get to sit down with some of these incredible people that have been so helpful and instrumental to me in my own path and my own journey and then share them with you. So before we close it out, a quick announcement. On a future episode, I'm going to give away five personally signed, inscribed paperbacks of Finding Ultra, my book, Finding Ultra.

• 1:16:52Rich Roll?

  How do you get one? How can you win this personally signed book? It's simple. All you have to do is send me a question that you would like answered on the podcast. I get a lot of emails. I do my best to try to keep up with them, but there's just too many. I just can't. So what I wanted to do is have you guys send me questions via the website email only. Don't do it on Facebook or Twitter, so that I can keep track of everything. And I'm going to pick five questions from those submitted. And I'm going to read them and answer them in a future podcast episode. And the ones that I read and pick will win a copy of the book, signed book by me, personally inscribed, however you want it. Okay, so check that out.

• 1:17:38Rich Roll?

  That episode will probably not be for a couple of weeks, so I'll have some time to kind of collect and collate and go through all of the inquiries and figure out what would be best and appropriate for the show. So you can do that. A couple appearances coming up for me if you want to come and see me speak. April 1st, I'm going to be at Colorado College in Colorado Springs. There's no website up for that right now. That's TBD, but if you're in that area, mark April 1st and you can come out and see me. It's open to the public. April 30th, I'm going to be in Burlington, Ontario, speaking at the Burlington Performing Arts Centre. That's April 30th. I'll put a link on richroll.com on the page for this episode with more information if

• 1:18:22Rich Roll?

  you're in that area and want to check that out. May 2nd, the Holistic Health Diary Retreat in London, Ontario. We're going to be in the Toronto area for like a week, so this is what we're doing. That's going to be Julie and I. It's going to be a half-day event, all sorts of awesome stuff going on. And again, there's a link to more information about that on my site. And then May 4th, I'm going to be speaking in Toronto. I'm not sure of the details of that yet, other than I do know that it's going to be open to the public. And as soon as there's like a splash page up or a webpage up with more information, I will put that up on the site and I'll tweet it and share it on Facebook and stuff. So that's it. Want to support the show? Tell a friend, man. That's it. We love all the response that we're getting.

• 1:19:07Rich Roll?

  And if you've been enjoying it, that's all we ask, just tell somebody else. But if you want to go the extra mile, the best way to do that is to use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com. It's right there on the homepage and on basically every podcast page, right on the right-hand margin. Click that, go to Amazon and pick up whatever it was that you were originally going to pick up, anyway. And they do not tack one cent extra onto your purchase price. It will cost you exactly the same and it'll take you about two seconds longer. But Amazon kicks us some loose change out of their massive gigantic bank account and that helps keep the lights on here. It helps me pay Tyler, my son, who is my podcast producer. So again, you're supporting youth

• 1:19:51Rich Roll?

  and entrepreneurship by supporting the show by using the Amazon banner ad. And thank you, everybody who's been doing that. If you want to even step it up beyond that, you can donate to the show one-time weekly subscriptions or monthly subscriptions in any dollar amount that you want. So, thank you, everybody who's doing that. If you want to learn more about getting plant-based, check out our Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. It's on MindBodyGreen.com. You can find it right there on the homepage. Three and a half hours of streaming video, online community, downloadable tools, recipes, shopping list, all kinds of great stuff there. And we're really proud of that. And people seem to be really enjoying it. So, you can check that out, whether you're a long-time plant-based person, or somebody who's just plant-curious and trying to figure out how you're gonna sort of embark on this new journey

• 1:20:35Rich Roll?

  and do it in a sustainable way. That's where I would send you. And a lot of the questions that I get asked online are answered in that program. So, you can check that out. Also, you can go to RichRoll.com for all your Plant Power Revolution provisions. We got awesome t-shirts up there. We got a couple nutritional supplement products. And we're gonna be building out our garment line. And we're going to be offering some new products, some new nutritional supplement products and some garments. We're working on a cycling kit. We got all kinds of good stuff in the pipeline. But for now, we got a couple cool t-shirts up there and some other good stuff. So, check that out. And as always, you can like me on Facebook. I'm on Twitter at @RichRoll. I'm on Instagram, which I love, at @RichRoll.

• 1:21:20Rich Roll?

  YouTube, RichRoll66. And again, just tell a friend. That's it. All right. So, that's it. I'm gonna be on a boat next week. I'm speaking on the Holistic Holiday. What is it? The Vegan Cruise, the Holistic Holiday at sea. So, I'm gonna be sailing around the Caribbean. Hopefully, there's Wi-Fi.

• 1:21:39Rich Roll?

  So I can stay connected with all of you guys. But have a great week, everybody, and I'll be back back next week with another awesome guest for you. So I'm out of here. Thanks, you guys. Peace. Thanks.

• 1:22:09Rich Roll?

  You.