Viola Davis: What If We’re Enough?

Before Viola Davis (How to Get Away with Murder) became an EGOT-winning actor, she was an observer. Her work takes the human experience and transmutes it, offering a mirror and a window into ourselves. You can watch this conversation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuHydabht-w on YouTube. As we (gradually) move into 2026, we revisit our sit-down with Davis. We unpack her liberating projects in The Woman King https://www.amazon.com/Woman-King-Viola-Davis/dp/B0B8Q3DQPX (4:24) and G20 https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.ce18124f-5eb6-431a-b5d3-41ba43d8ce55?autoplay=0&ref_=atv_cf_strg_wb (4:50), the formative years she spent growing up in Rhode Island (13:52), and how she captured those familial memories in her 2022 memoir Finding Me (17:12). Then, we talk about Viola’s start as a performer (23:40), what she learned attending Juilliard (31:57), and the quagmire she faced as a Black actor emerging on Broadway and in Hollywood post-graduation (35:10). On the back-half, Davis reflects on a scene from August Wilson’s play Seven Guitars (37:50), her singular experience acting alongside Meryl Streep in Doubt https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.0aabfbe6-e2b7-8098-3c28-bfba82736fba?autoplay=0&ref_=atv_cf_strg_wb (47:25), and the ways her life transformed during Shonda Rhymes’ How to Get Away with Murder https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.a2b90a83-2901-66bb-ef3c-77d710dec77b?autoplay=0&ref_=atv_cf_strg_wb and Steve McQueen’s Widows https://www.amazon.com/Widows-Steve-McQueen/dp/B07KLCY319 (53:00). To close, Viola shares her views on legacy (1:01:05) and how she finds her way back home, each and every day (1:05:20). Thoughts or future guest ideas? Email us at [email protected]. Original air date: April 27, 2025 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:32Sam Fragoso?

  Today, actor and producer Viola Davis. She's one of only 21 with an EGOT, an Emmy for How to Get Away with Murder, a Grammy for her memoir Finding Me, an Oscar for her supporting Turn and Fences, and a Tony Award for her work in the same play written by August Wilson. But her earliest role, at least as she described it, was that of an observer. And as the first Black family to live in Central Falls, Rhode Island, Davis had a lot to observe: love, pain, poverty, abuse, addiction, joy. Like one of her many great future performances, her upbringing had many notes and shades, highs and lows.

• 1:16Sam Fragoso?

  It was not a simple story that could be reduced to cliches. Davis's work is equally hard to pin down. How does one articulate greatness, anyway? How do you explain what she does in films like Doubt, or Widows, or The Woman King? You can't, really, and so I won't begin to try here. Instead, what I can offer is this conversation that I had with her. It was probably my favorite episode of 2025, and yet, in re-listening to it this week, I had no idea how much I needed it in this moment. We talk about her formative years growing up in Rhode Island, what she learned attending Juilliard, and how writing her memoir, Finding Me,

• 2:00Sam Fragoso?

  helped her make sense of her past so that she could begin to imagine her future. And so I'm not one for resolutions, but I do hope this talk plays for you the way it played for me, which is kind of an invitation and maybe a reminder to be just a little bit kinder to yourself in the new year, which is something I'm very good at saying on this podcast to other people and not so good at following myself. And so I'm going to try to do that a little bit more this year. I hope you do, too. If you haven't listened to our holiday specials with Robbie Hoffman or Kate Winslet, they're both excellent and interesting for very, very different reasons.

• 2:43Sam Fragoso?

  And they're now available on YouTube if you like to watch us in conversation. As always, you can reach out to us at [email protected]. This is a good time of year to send in who you want to hear on the show in 2026. We, of course, have a whole bunch of people coming up that we're really excited about, but we also are looking for suggestions. So be sure to send those in to [email protected]. I hope you had a restful holiday break. It is raining here in Los Angeles. It feels like it's never going to stop raining, which may not be the worst thing. We could use the rain. Anyway, as we gradually, and I do mean gradually, move into 2026,

• 3:28Sam Fragoso?

  here is my very special conversation with the inimitable Viola Davis. Happy New Year.

• 3:52Sam Fragoso?

  Viola Davis.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:53Sam Fragoso?

  Thank you for being here.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you for having me.

• 3:56Sam Fragoso?

  We're in the Actors Equity Building.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. This is where I would come every year to do my taxes. But the reason why I came to the Actors Equity Building is they would do your taxes for free.

• 4:08Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, really?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. So I'd get here at 4 o'clock in the morning, sleep in front of that damn door, get my taxes done and mail it.

• 4:15Sam Fragoso?

  Now, you got your Actors Equity card after doing Joe Turner's Come and Gone, right?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  That's right. I became a professional actress.

• 4:23Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I think you were 23 at the time?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  23.

• 4:26Sam Fragoso?

  Okay. So the building has good, but mostly sleepy memories, is what I'm hearing. So let's try to create a better, more lasting memory today. Around your last big action hero film, The Woman King.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:42Sam Fragoso?

  You said the story, quote, "resuscitated you." "I'm dark-skinned. I have a deep voice. In my whole life, I've been told that I'm too strong, too masculine." We redefine what it means to be feminine in The Woman King, and it liberated me.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:59Sam Fragoso?

  Is it from that liberation that you felt, well, the only role to play after The Woman King is the President of the United States?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  It wasn't intentional. I think that people see your career so much as intentional. And what that would mean is that you have so much control over your work. And there are no words to describe the business of acting.

• 5:25Sam Fragoso?

  We're gonna need some words.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, 95% unemployment rate. 1% of actors make $50,000 a year or more. Usually, those are background actors. And only 0.04% of actors are famous. You don't get control over your material. Every once in a while, you have an actor out there, maybe the Leonardo DiCaprio's, you know, who could go out there and say, "I want to work with this director." But usually with the rest of us, it's you're on a wing and a prayer.

• 5:55Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  But the thing about this profession, because there's so much deprivation...

• 6:01Speaker 01

  You always wanna figure out what to do in order to work. So a lot of people copy everyone else's hairstyle. They copy everyone else's body. You know, all the women out there trying to lose weight. Maybe they get plastic surgery, who knows? But very few people sort of relish in exactly who they are.

• 6:23Sam Fragoso?

  And do you relish in that?

• 6:24Speaker 01

  I have to. I don't know how to be anyone else. And yes, was I liberated from everything that makes you or defines you as feminine? Yes, for the woman king. But I've been liberated by everything that defined me as being anything. I feel like I define me. Totally. I don't want any limits on me, my sexuality, my voice, what I can and can't do, at what age. I refuse to limit myself. I think that's where progressiveness comes in. That person who's willing to step out on faith and do what it is that they're called to do.

• 7:03Sam Fragoso?

  You said that in making this movie, that not every film I make has to win an Academy Award.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Oh, God, yes.

• 7:11Sam Fragoso?

  But are you sure the Academy should overlook the scene where you shoot someone in the foot,

• 7:18Sam Fragoso?

  punch him in the face, all while in a red dress?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Let me tell you something. I do need an award for that damn red dress. Listen, you know what?

• 7:29Sam Fragoso?

  That's the last joke question I'll ask you.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  No, you got, we gotta have some laughs. I mean, this has been, I mean, that's one of the reasons why I did the movie too. I want people to be able to get together with their families at home and watch the movie. In the same way they commit to Air Force One, Die Hard, Sigourney Weaver in Alien. I want them to commit to me. And I don't think that that is a bad thing. I don't think that, you know, every movie I make has to make a grand statement even. I think sometimes it needs to just be pure entertainment.

• 8:04Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I was thoroughly entertained. You made this film through your production company.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:10Sam Fragoso?

  And the mission statement of the company is to, quote, "Change the landscape. It's hard for people to see us beyond the narratives that are didactic. We're trying to change that." So tell me, how does G20 fit into that mission statement? What does change look like to you and your production company?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  First of all, because I'm the lead in a movie.

• 8:31Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  I'm 59 years old, and I play the President of the United States with my body, my skin tone, my face, and the people in the movie reflect the audience. I'm the center of the narrative. Then you have Ramon Rodriguez. You have Patricia Rigan, who is Mexican, Guadalajara, who's directing it. It reflects the audience. You know, so often, I don't think that we understand. It's like, I did a movie one time years ago, and my husband, we went to see it in the movie theater. He said, "You were the only black person in that town." Even when we looked in the background in the hardware store that you were at, there was no one, black, brown, or nothing.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  But a lot of times, movies do not reflect the world. And, you know, once I got to a certain level, then I needed to be the change that I wanted to see. You know, it's like that saying, you know, "Once you're free, it's your job to free others." And there is no closet in the studios filled with scripts for young African-American actresses, for older African-American actresses, for any actress of color. They're not there. And so if you don't create them, then what you have is maybe actresses who do one really great movie,

• 9:57Speaker 01

  and then they sit around for another year or two, until maybe they find something else. I don't think that people understand the deprivation there is in material. And it's the material that pops you.

• 10:11Sam Fragoso?

  So in this scene that people are about to hear, your character, President Sutton, is negotiating with a group of attackers attempting to destabilize the world economy and corner the market on cryptocurrency.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:26Sam Fragoso?

  Odd timing for us to play this scene. Your character speaks first.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Why would a mercenary take on the G20?

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Wait. You, you call me a mercenary. Lady, you fought a war over gasoline.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  I served my country just as I serve it now.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, blindly. You serve it blindly. You were used by them then, and they're using you now.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  So you feel used? That's why you terrorize a world and crash markets?

• 10:52Speaker 02

  We want to switch to crypto currency, so that...

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Oh, shit. This isn't about crypto. You want to crash currencies to get rich? This seems like something personal. What, what are you after?

• 11:04Speaker 02

  I'm after you.

• 11:06Sam Fragoso?

  Like we said, in D20, you play the president and you're the star of the film.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:10Sam Fragoso?

  Which means, like Harrison Ford.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:13Sam Fragoso?

  In Air Force One, you were number one on the call sheet.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:16Sam Fragoso?

  But before you went into the film, in the middle of the pandemic, as you began writing your memoir, you said in one interview, "I had to press a reset button in my life. I had a crisis of meaning in 2020." You get to number one, and that's your life. "Once I got there, it felt like somebody lied to me." What does a crisis of meaning look like for Viola Davis?

• 11:42Speaker 01

  A crisis of meaning for Viola Davis, I think, is probably what it looks like to everyone. When you set out on the path to become something. So you think, okay, I'm going to become a famous actress. So that's the goal, that's the vision, all right? And then you hit it. And then you realize that's just not it. There is a disillusionment that happens, there's an emptiness that happens. And to be perfectly honest, there's an isolation and a loneliness that happens.

• 12:15Sam Fragoso?

  And that happened to you.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Oh, totally. And it's, I have to tell you, it sort of hit after the help, but really, it really reared its ugly head during How to Get Away with Murder. Because here's the thing. Whatever goal you set in life is just the cosmic carrot to what life is supposed to be about. It's a quote that I've been using again and again during this whole publicity tour, which is, "Your purpose in life is not what you do. It's what happens to people when you do what you do."

• 12:47Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  And that's it.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  That's it. I mean, I always tell people even now, when you push your kid and you want your kid to be the top of the top and the best of the best, you have to know, invest some money in mental health treatment.

• 13:02Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Because they're gonna need it. Because what's gonna happen is when they are not that thing all the time, if they're not accomplishing something all the time, they're not gonna know how to sit with themselves. And it's who you are that's more important than what you do. That was my big.

• 13:23Sam Fragoso?

  There's a Stevie Wonder song.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 13:25Sam Fragoso?

  Where he sings, "Show me how to do like you."

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:28Sam Fragoso?

  Show me how to do it.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. I stole that from Alice Walker. She opens, she opens The Color Purple with that quote. And it took me the longest time to realize that. And I realized it was the whole relationship between Seeley and Suge Avery. Where Suge Avery taught Seeley how to love herself, basically. Taught her how to, you know, find home. And I think that's, it sounds kumbaya.

• 13:56Sam Fragoso?

  Listen, the show is called Talk Easy.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:00Sam Fragoso?

  Kumbaya is just part of the equation.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:03Sam Fragoso?

  So you do not need to apologize for kumbaya. But this book that you wrote, Finding Me, did feel like, does feel like, an invitation and a gift and an offering to discover and rediscover your younger self.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:19Sam Fragoso?

  And so I want to understand that young version of you a little bit. You were born in 1965.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:26Sam Fragoso?

  You're delivered by your grandmother in her home on the Singleton Plantation in St. Matthew, South Carolina.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:34Sam Fragoso?

  As the fifth of six children, most of your family then relocates to Central Falls, Rhode Island.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:41Sam Fragoso?

  A small mill town that was close to two racetracks that your father worked at.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 14:47Sam Fragoso?

  You were also the first African American family to live in that community. But come the age of five, you meet your older sister Diane for the first time.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 14:58Sam Fragoso?

  She was maybe nine years old, I think.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:00Sam Fragoso?

  When she enters the bathroom with you, how does that scene unfold as we sit here right now? How do you see it?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  You know what? How I see it now was that was the first seed of curiosity, which is a very, very powerful word to me. And the curiosity was at five years old, it was one of the few times we had hot water. So I was taking a bath and she, all I heard was a voice that said, I want to see my baby sister. I want to see my baby sister. And I got out of the bathtub. And she stared at me and she looked around the house, which was, we grew up extremely poor.

• 15:42Sam Fragoso?

  Uh huh.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  And she said the one phrase that opened my world, which is, what do you want to be, Viola? And I call that the call to adventure.

• 15:57Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  You know, I, I think that a lot of people feel like the call to adventure is I have this great opportunity for you to work, you know, somewhere and make a lot of money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the call to adventure for me was, what do I want to become? Who do I want to become? And is that exactly what the journey should be? I didn't know that. I mean, of course, I was five years old at the time, but I don't think that it matters how old you are. I think once the seed is planted, it's planted.

• 16:30Sam Fragoso?

  Why do you think she asked you that? How do you think she knew to plant the seed?

• 16:36Speaker 01

  They say that every hero and hero, but I, what I mean by hero

• 16:41Sam Fragoso?

  Joseph Campbell.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Joseph Campbell is anyone who wants to slay their demons in life.

• 16:45Sam Fragoso?

  Uh huh.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  That's anybody.

• 16:47Sam Fragoso?

  So that could be any of us.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Any of us. Because she didn't want to be poor.

• 16:52Sam Fragoso?

  She didn't want it.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  It's very simple. She grew up even at Singleton Plantation for many, many years and grew up in segregated schools where she was beaten.

• 17:02Sam Fragoso?

  Had no indoor bathroom.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  No indoor bathroom and saw a bathroom for the first time when she was, right before she came to live with us. And she couldn't believe it. Her jaw dropped because she saw the possibilities in life. And I mean, I think it would be a better question for her, but what she did was she passed the baton on to me unknowingly.

• 17:25Sam Fragoso?

  You've described your childhood at 128 Washington Street as full of rage and alcoholism.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:32Sam Fragoso?

  It was a war zone. If it was a war zone, who were the casualties?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  I was a casualty. My siblings were the casualty. My mom was a casualty. You know, my mom is now in advanced dementia. I absolutely, absolutely believe that the level of abuse that she endured caused that. So you do suffer trauma when you grow up in some level of poverty. And when you grow up with, you know, they say the first enemy of a child is an unhealed parent. And I had two unhealed parents. And certainly in every community, we have unhealed parents. But when it becomes the African American community,

• 18:18Speaker 01

  you have the one-two punch of family trauma and cultural trauma. A trauma of people that just don't see you. A world that just doesn't see you. And I think that was a double whammy for my dad, who raged out of control. And I'm just guessing at that because he was not curious. And so he raged.

• 18:43Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean, he wasn't curious?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  He wasn't curious enough to know what was behind that rage and to heal it, is what I'm saying. Is it's all we have is curiosity. All we have is curiosity to wake up every single day with, I don't know, you you walk into any situation and you you have anxiety to just say, what's that? Where's that coming from?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Or do you just live with it? Do you say that, you know what, I want to live a transcendent life? I don't want to roll into my grave being just a sort of mere, sort of the the crappy version of myself.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  That's what curiosity does. It keeps you growing, you know? And it doesn't mean that it's perfect growth. But it does mean that you're curious enough to know who you are.

• 19:38Sam Fragoso?

  Inside that home, I want to better understand how you coexisted and and made it through. And to do that, I thought you could read from page 70 of your book.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Oh, page 70? Okay.

• 19:54Sam Fragoso?

  I have it highlighted here.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness, what is page 70? But sometimes we would go to the bar and play darts and pool and be treated to Sprite and potato chips. These happy moments would soon be followed by trauma. The rage of my dad's alcoholic binges, violence, poverty, hunger, and isolation. In my child's mind, I was the problem. I would retreat to the bathroom, put something against the door so no one would come in, and I'd sit for an inordinate amount of time staring at my fingers and hands and try to erase everything in my mind. I wished I could elevate out of my body, leave it. One time when I was about nine years old, I succeeded.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  I left it, my body, that is, in a manner of speaking. I floated up to the ceiling, looking down at myself, observing my hair, my legs, and my face. Then I faced myself staring directly into me. Wow. I loved it. It was a magical, secret power, only I didn't see myself as magical or powerful. I just felt free. It was my way of disappearing. It was my high. I couldn't always control this out-of-body sense, but when I could, it was beyond fabulous. The power to leave my body, to be relieved of Viola for a while, was an ever-present image that followed me for decades.

• 21:26Sam Fragoso?

  Was that... How did you feel reading that?

• 21:34Speaker 01

  You know what? When I look back at Little Viola, Little Viola, I never felt safe. You know what? Even worse than that, I felt wrong.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  I felt like whoever was building me up there in the sky just did everything wrong.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Put me in the wrong family, put me in the wrong circumstances. Didn't make me pretty enough.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Made me too black. Every aspect of me was wrong. I didn't see any evidence in life of love.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  I couldn't articulate it at the time. I just sort of disappeared and numbed. Because that's what you do when you grow up in violence, too. You do everything you can to make yourself as small as possible. And then I was a bed wetter.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  And then adding the poverty with that, it just felt wrong.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  If I did have a call to adventure, it would be to find self-love. To find some, to find God who can put the deus ex machina, that's what they call it in Greek tragedy, the god from the machine that would pluck characters out of a play. And when they plucked them out of the play, it was a sign that they were dead. But I just wanted to be, I wanted God to appear to tell me that I was made with love.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Or some level of purpose. Because I didn't see any evidence of it, none.

• 23:38Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know if God appeared, but Cecily Tyson.

• 23:44Sam Fragoso?

  In the autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman, did appear and she did come down.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:52Sam Fragoso?

  And pluck you.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:54Sam Fragoso?

  1974, you and your family crowding around the TV.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:58Sam Fragoso?

  What happened?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  You know what? It's that emoji, that emoji. I'm using it more now, the emoji where the brain is being blown to bits. That's what it was. It was the emoji where it was a god moment. It was a sermon on the mount. It was the burning bush, as Elizabeth Gilbert would say. It's one of those moments where, you know, the wind stopped blowing because what I saw was magic. I saw excellence. And I saw it in the body of a woman who looked like me, who really looked like my mom, my mom, and very, very similar. And I saw evidence of what I wanted to become.

• 24:41Sam Fragoso?

  And that scene that you just read from in the bathroom, disassociating, elevating, some kind of magic trick in that, leaving your body, becoming somebody else. Do you think that paired with Miss Tyson's work were the early foundations for you as a young actor?

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely. But there was a lot of early foundations. Miss Tyson was one of them. My sister Diane was one of them. Mr. Yates, my drama teacher, was one of them. Mr. Aces, who was the head of the glee club, was one of them. My sister Dolores, the birth of my sister Danielle, who I loved more than anything, you know, on the planet. All of those were signs

• 25:30Speaker 01

  that carried me.

• 25:32Sam Fragoso?

  Carried you to Rhode Island College, having participated in the upward bound program in high school.

• 25:40Sam Fragoso?

  I heard you used to tell people, acting is not what I do, it's who I am.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I take that back.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  I take that back a little bit. It is what I do.

• 25:51Sam Fragoso?

  But at the time, it was true.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  At the time, it was true because it was healing.

• 25:56Sam Fragoso?

  And there's one performance that's not in your memoir.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 26:00Sam Fragoso?

  That I think really represents your commitment to becoming an actor. I don't know if you know what I'm gonna say.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I hope you're not gonna say something bad.

• 26:09Sam Fragoso?

  At some point during college, or maybe a little after college, you performed this one woman show as musician Etta Jones all across Rhode Island. You wore a blue dress, I don't know if it was as blue as that, in the performance. And you even did the show once at a basketball court, where one person was in the audience, people were playing basketball, and I think there was a dog.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yep. It jumped on me.

• 26:36Sam Fragoso?

  Tell me about this performance.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  It was horrible, first of all. It was not a good performance. But you know what? I say that with great pride. Cicoretta Jones, she's an opera singer out of Rhode Island. I think in the 19, turn of the 20th century, which I can't even sing. And I think I sang 14 songs in the performance.

• 26:58Sam Fragoso?

  I was told you were gonna sing a couple of them for us today.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  My God, no. But you know, you know what, though? Here's the thing. You really do learn through failure. You really do. Because I remember my sisters came to see it and they were like, that was awful. They said, did you even hear yourself? I mean, it was awful. And I remember I felt so bad. But here's the thing. I got up and I did it again. And it was still bad, but a little bit better. And then I did it again. And I did it again. And I think that by the time I got to the final performance, it was the final performance where it was just an audience of one. And it was greatly improved.

• 27:44Sam Fragoso?

  Was that at the basketball court?

• 27:46Speaker 01

  No, the basketball court was maybe four people.

• 27:49Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  The final performance was one person. And if you're willing to go through the pain and work with fear, I think there's some beautiful discoveries there. And the beautiful discovery I made is I had it in me.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  I had the tools to live better, to work myself through failure. It wasn't the performance that mattered. That's just a cosmic carrot. It's the journey in taking out everything that I had within me to keep going. And for me, that's proof positive

• 28:29Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  of God's love. I call it God's love for me because he gave me the courage to know that there was something even better, even within a performance that probably I wasn't even right for.

• 28:41Sam Fragoso?

  I love that story. And I don't know, it's not in the book, but I love that story because if you're going to do it, you're gonna do it anywhere, anytime, for anyone, at any place, at a basketball court, dog barking, people playing pickup in the background, even in a blue silk dress. You either do or don't.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  It's the doing it that's the beauty of it.

• 29:08Sam Fragoso?

  In many ways, it's the only thing that really matters.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 29:11Sam Fragoso?

  Do you show up?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Show up.

• 29:13Sam Fragoso?

  And so, speaking of which, why don't we take a break? And when we come back, we'll tell the story of the first time you showed up to audition for Juilliard. That'll be next with Viola Davis after the break.

• 29:45Sam Fragoso?

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• 30:30Sam Fragoso?

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• 31:02Sam Fragoso?

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• 31:45Sam Fragoso?

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• 32:30Sam Fragoso?

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• 32:55Sam Fragoso?

  You showed up to your audition at Juilliard and said, "I have 45 minutes for this audition."

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 33:02Sam Fragoso?

  Is that true?

• 33:03Speaker 01

  That is true.

• 33:04Sam Fragoso?

  And they said what?

• 33:06Speaker 01

  You audition a lot at Juilliard. At the time, it had a 3% acceptance rate. So the first room, I auditioned and I was so nervous at the time, but I said, "I only have 45 minutes. I have to get back to the theater in Providence. I have to get on the train. It's a four-hour trip." And so, they talked amongst themselves after seeing my audition. And then they stopped all the auditions that they had. There were like, it seemed like hundreds of kids there. And they took all their chairs. All of the teachers took all their chairs into the big, big, it was a rehearsal room. It's the biggest, I think, room 103. I remember the room, 103. They took all their chairs in there.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Because in, at Juilliard, you audition for a different set of teachers. Like, maybe five auditions. You're there all day, sometimes two or three days. So all of them took their chairs into one room to see me. And I knew I had gotten in. You know what I, what I miss about myself at that time? I'm just thinking about this. That I knew that I knew that I knew that I was good.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  I think that as you get, go along, the imposter syndrome can take over more. And that's because you're exposed to the world. And no one could tell you the sort of hyper biblical level of confidence you need when, when, when you're at that level of your profession. You know, you almost have to have an arrogant level of confidence, which I do not have. But at that point, I knew I was good. I knew I was gonna get in. I just did. And there's something about that that I miss. I could take a sliver of that now.

• 34:57Sam Fragoso?

  So you're saying, the performer that was in $50,000 of college debt?

• 35:06Sam Fragoso?

  Was more confident than EGOT winner Viola Davis.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah.

• 35:13Sam Fragoso?

  What the hell does that mean?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  When I say confident too, is you always want to be better. Okay, you do. I'm contradicting myself a little bit, what I'm about to say. I'm, I'm not mad at the imposter syndrome. I think it's underrated, actually. Okay. But at the time, I didn't even have imposter syndrome. I just knew that I knew that I knew that I was great. I did. Now that the world has gotten to me, it's like, oh, I could have been better. Oh, you know, this, oh, you know, yeah, I got the EGOT, but you know, I could have done this better. I could have done that better. Now Viola herself, which is different than Viola younger now.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  This is not the work. This is just me. Way more self-love. Those are two different things.

• 36:06Sam Fragoso?

  That's the trade-off.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:08Sam Fragoso?

  At Juilliard, what was the objective of their training? Were they shaping you into a good actress or a perfect white actress?

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Definitely a perfect white actress.

• 36:19Sam Fragoso?

  And what does that look like?

• 36:21Speaker 01

  What it looks like, it's technical training. In order to deal with the classics, in order to deal with the Strindbergs and the O'Neills and the Chekhovs and the Shakespeare. I totally understand that. To get your voice, everything. But what it denies is the human being behind all of that. I feel that as a black actress, I'm always being tasked to show that I have range by doing white work. So if I can master, I don't know, Blanche Dubois in Tennessee Williams, you know, Streetcar Named Desire.

• 36:59Sam Fragoso?

  Which I'd love to see, by the way.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  I would love to see it too. I did it in class once. I listened and, listen, I could do the best I can with Tennessee Williams, but he writes for fragile white women. Beautiful work, but it's, it's not me. Or do a fabulous job playing, I don't know, Hermione in Winter's Tale in Shakespeare. But we don't put those same parameters on white actors. You know, you can have a white actress who's 54, 55 years old, which is a great age to play mama in Raising the Son.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Is she gonna be able to pull off Mama in Raising the Sun? Is she gonna be able to pull off Beneath Her? Is she gonna be able to pull off Molly in Joe Turner's Come and Gone? When Molly says, "I ain't going south." And make me believe it. They don't have to do that. So for those four years at Juilliard, all the white actor has to do is play all white characters. That's not me. Me, I'm tasked to only do the classics. And no black writer is included in those classics. And then, once I leave Juilliard, guess what? Most of what I will be asked to do are black characters, which people will not feel that I am black enough.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  So then, I'm caught in a quagmire, this sort of in-between place of sort of not understanding how to use myself as the canvas. Juilliard was an out-of-body experience because, once again, I did not think that I could use me. Me needed to be left at the front door, even though me was what got me in there.

• 38:44Sam Fragoso?

  You is what also delivered you to the work of August Wilson.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:50Sam Fragoso?

  When you leave college, speaking of a playwright that's not often taught

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:55Sam Fragoso?

  in school.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:57Sam Fragoso?

  People know you from Fences, Ma Rainey, King Henry II.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:03Sam Fragoso?

  But your first Tony nomination came from your turn in Seven Guitars.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:09Sam Fragoso?

  Um, in the mid 90s, I think it was.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:13Sam Fragoso?

  But on the subject of whiteness, was there a Q and A you had after one performance where there was a certain response from someone that that made you? That opened your eyes to to the conditions in which you were working.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Yes, it was in San Francisco at ACT.

• 39:31Sam Fragoso?

  You mean liberal San Francisco?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  You know, sometimes the liberal or, you know, conservative is just a mask for something else. But it was after a performance and one of the audience members raised their hand and said, why should we care about Floyd Schoolboy Barton? Which is the main subject, the character in Seven Guitars, who's a blues singer who's just come out of jail. He comes out of jail, he makes a hit, he has a hit record and he's about to be famous. And he gets killed. It's a tragedy. And in the end, this audience member said, I didn't feel anything. Why should we care about him? Was he famous? It's not like he's B.B. King.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  You know, so why should we care about him?

• 40:19Sam Fragoso?

  He's not in the history books.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  He's not in the history books. And for me, that's something deeper. It's a huge problem I have with narratives.

• 40:28Sam Fragoso?

  What is it?

• 40:29Speaker 01

  I think that people have a hard time sitting with a black character for two hours. Whether it's in a movie or whether it's in a play. I think they're okay with it if it's an allegory. If we're not really representing a human being. Okay, if we're representing an idea, maybe they will, maybe they'll carry it, okay? Because then they can look at it academically.

• 40:53Sam Fragoso?

  They can attach it to a politic or something like that.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Maybe they could do it if it's not deep. If it's maybe a comedy.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  But to have someone sit with you, like you would in All My Sons, Death of a Salesman. You know, there is a sort of bordering for our worth in narratives. That if I've made it into a history book, then I can know as maybe someone white, I'll know that you're worthy of my time in the theater. Me being worthy of anyone's time in the theater is me breathing.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Toni Morrison coined the phrase, "The white gaze." And the reason why she coined it is because she said every time she put pen to paper, she had an imaginary white character on her shoulder that kept saying, "Write for me. Make me understand it. I don't understand it. Make me understand it." And so she felt that every time she read any work, even if it were The Invisible Man or Frederick Douglass's autobiography, she said the reason why she knew it wasn't written for her is because they were explaining things that you wouldn't have to explain to her. Okay? She even felt that Frederick Douglass was holding something back. When she got her first review for Shula in New York Times, a glowing review.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  But the one aspect of the review that really threw her was the writer said she could be brilliant if she only had white characters in it. I want to be seen as human. As human, as fragile, as messy, as much of a paradox as any character in Tennessee Williams or Anton Chekhov or Eugene O'Neill. I want you to sit with me. Even if I have five minutes of a silent moment because of what is happening in my life. As Arthur Miller said in View from the Bridge about Eddie, he's like, "He may be a despicable character,

• 43:03Speaker 01

  but something is happening to him and attention needs to be made. Attention needs to be made with us on many things beyond my blackness."

• 43:16Sam Fragoso?

  Your artistry in that play, Seven Guitars, I never got to see it.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Were you young?

• 43:24Sam Fragoso?

  I think I was three or four at the time.

• 43:31Sam Fragoso?

  Parents could have taken me, maybe.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 43:34Sam Fragoso?

  I want to hold like how you saw your purpose and your artistry in that moment. Working long, long hours in these theater productions that were paying you. Okay, but you know, can't buy a home. And to do that, I want to set up a scene in the play, which is set in a Pittsburgh tenement in 1948. Where you play Vera, the sometimes girlfriend to the 1940s blues musician Floyd. Who's trying in this scene to desperately get Vera back.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:06Sam Fragoso?

  In the production, you played Vera. And I think it was Keith David.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Keith David, yeah.

• 44:12Sam Fragoso?

  Who played Floyd. But I'd like to swap for today and see if we can read this scene together.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 44:20Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, here we go.

• 44:24Sam Fragoso?

  Doing a scene opposite of you as someone who's not an actor is horrifying.

• 44:35Sam Fragoso?

  Thankfully, this is mostly you talking in this scene.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm playing Floyd's.

• 44:39Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, ready?

• 44:42Sam Fragoso?

  I want to say yeah, but what am I saying yeah to? Another heartache, another time for you to walk out the door with another woman?

• 44:49Speaker 01

  You was there too, Vera. You had a hand in whatever it was. Maybe all the times we don't know the effect of what we do, but we cause what happens to us. Sometimes even in little ways we can't see. I went up to Chicago with Pearl Brown because she was willing to believe that I could take her someplace she wanted to go. That I could give her things that she wanted to have. She told me by that it was possible.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Even sometimes when you question yourself. When you wonder, can you really make the music work for you? Can you find a way to get it out into the world? So it can burst in the air and have it mean something to somebody? She didn't know if I could do that, if I could have a hit record. But she was willing to believe it. Maybe it was selfish of her, maybe she believed for all the wrong reasons, but that gave me a chance to try. So yeah, I took it. It wasn't easy, I was scared, but when them red lights came on in that recording studio. It was like a bell ringing in the boxing match and I did it. I reached down inside me and I pulled out whatever was there. I did like my mama told me, I did my best.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  And I figured nobody could fault me for that. Then when they didn't release the record, Pearl Brown left. She thought she had believed wrong. I don't fault her for that. But I never lost a belief in myself. Then when they released the record, I realized I didn't have nothing but a hit record. I come back to you figuring you couldn't say no to a man who had got a hit record, but you did. And that made me see that you wanted more than Pearl Brown.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  I'm here saying I can give it to you.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Try me one more time. And I'll never jump back on you in life.

• 46:42Sam Fragoso?

  I got to thinking and I went down to the Greyhound bus station too. Here.

• 46:50Sam Fragoso?

  See that? See, what does that say? It says one way, Chicago to Pittsburgh. It's good for one year from date to purchase. I'm gonna put that in my shoe. When we get to Chicago, I'm gonna walk around on it. I hope I never have to use it.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Well, that's all right. I forgot all about that scene.

• 47:11Sam Fragoso?

  I can tell one person has won a Tony Award.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 47:15Sam Fragoso?

  In this conversation. Did the music begin to work for you? Did it burst into the air, into the world? When you got the role in Doubt?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Oh, most definitely.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  That's when it burst in the air.

• 47:34Sam Fragoso?

  Cause I love that description of art. I love.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  I love that line. I try to use it all the time and I always misquote it.

• 47:42Sam Fragoso?

  You can take that with you today.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Cause that's what you want with your art. You want it to mean something to someone, you know? Arthur Miller says it. I write so people can feel less alone.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that there's probably a lot of young actors coming up now who just want the awards and they want the money. But really, a true artist wants it to sort of burst in the air. And they want it to sort of shift people. Shift how you think about yourself and the world. I mean, that's the goal. It's a lofty goal, but it's a goal nevertheless.

• 48:22Sam Fragoso?

  You wrote a hundred-page biography for that character in Doubt. A character that appears in the movie for less than ten minutes.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:31Sam Fragoso?

  Tell me how you go about unpacking a character like that. How you go about unpacking any character from that period onward.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  I will say that one of the things that I always do is, first of all, they say in acting, you have to be an observer and a thief. The observing part comes from life and the thief probably comes from looking at other actors' work. But the observing, I always have to think of something in my life that I can compare it to.

• 49:01Sam Fragoso?

  And so what did you think of?

• 49:03Speaker 01

  I was lost because I didn't understand the woman who would allow her son to stay with a man that could possibly be molesting him. And just say, at least, at least he's mentoring him. When his father, all the father does is beat him. I just didn't understand that. I felt it was too stark, too allegorical. I didn't get it. What happens for me is, when I get a character, the reason why I write is the more I write, I think I can unlock something. What's their favorite color? What's their first memory? Now, if it's written within an inch of its life, a lot of times, it's already in there. I only had eight minutes, I had to make up something.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  And then I ask people questions, of course, because what I need to find out is what is the driving need in their life? What do they live for? Do they want to be loved? Do they want to have control? And I remember an acting teacher of mine, because I kept trying to figure her out. And one of the things she said is, Viola, maybe she leaves her son in that situation. Here's the big aha moment, because she has no choice.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  What are you telling me?

• 50:28Speaker 04

  I'm talking about the boy's nature now.

• 50:32Speaker 04

  Not anything he's done.

• 50:36Speaker 04

  You can't hold a child responsible for what God gave him to be.

• 50:43Speaker 03

  I'm only interested in actions, Mrs. Miller.

• 50:46Speaker 04

  But then there's the boy's nature.

• 50:48Speaker 03

  Leave that out of it.

• 50:49Speaker 04

  Forget it then.

• 50:52Speaker 04

  You're enforcing people to say things.

• 50:59Speaker 04

  My boy came to your school because they were going to kill him in a public school.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  His father don't like him. You come to your school, kids don't like them.

• 51:13Speaker 04

  One man is good to him, this priest.

• 51:17Speaker 04

  Then does a man have his reasons? Yes.

• 51:21Speaker 04

  Everybody does. You have your reasons, but...

• 51:25Speaker 04

  Do I ask the man why he's good to my son?

• 51:30Speaker 04

  No.

• 51:35Speaker 04

  I don't care why.

• 51:40Speaker 04

  My son

• 51:43Speaker 04

  needs some man to care about him and to see him through the way he wants to go.

• 51:50Speaker 04

  And thank God this educated man with some kindness in him wants to do just that.

• 51:55Speaker 03

  This will not do.

• 51:56Speaker 04

  It's just till June.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  I'll throw your son out of this school.

• 52:00Speaker 04

  Why would you do that if it didn't start with him?

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Because I will stop this.

• 52:05Speaker 04

  You'd hurt my son to get your way.

• 52:06Speaker 03

  It won't end with your son.

• 52:08Speaker 04

  Throw the priest out then.

• 52:09Speaker 03

  I am trying to do just that.

• 52:12Speaker 04

  Then what do you want from me?

• 52:16Sam Fragoso?

  Meryl Streep, your co-star. So the director made you go back and reshoot that scene the next day again and again and again and again. And I wondered, did that repetition? How did you use that? How did you continue doing that scene over and over? Because just doing it once seems like it would take a whole lifetime to produce that kind of work.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Well, that's my theater training. I've done plays for over a year, again and again and again. I've done four-hour plays. I've done one-woman shows. I have over a 40-year career. So he could have done it 50 times and I would have been able to do it over and over again.

• 52:59Sam Fragoso?

  And you were unflappable in that.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  I was pretty unflappable. You know what? I'm an actor who stays in my lane.

• 53:07Sam Fragoso?

  What does that mean?

• 53:08Speaker 01

  I'm not trying to be like anyone else. I wasn't trying to be like Adrian Lennox, who, you know, who-

• 53:16Sam Fragoso?

  Auditioned for the part.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  She auditioned for the part and she originated the part. Fantastic actor. Great. I'm not trying to be like anyone else. I'm just trying to do what I do. And it did not throw me. And I didn't have enough experience in my life up until that time to have the sort of wisdom for it to throw me. I just thought that this is just what people do when they do a scene with Meryl Streep.

• 53:47Sam Fragoso?

  It goes incredibly well. You receive an Oscar nomination. In the aftermath, you talked earlier about getting to a place where you had that crisis of faith a little bit. And I'm curious, in How to Get Away with Murder and in Widows, you said both Shonda Rhymes and Steve McQueen saw something in me that other filmmakers did not. What did they see in Explorer that the industry seemed to be ignoring?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  They saw me as a woman. Usually I'm just seen as mama, you know, with no sexuality, with no mess.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, they saw me as a woman. And they saw me as a complicated woman. I think notoriously, women who look like me are seen limited like that. And we always have to bear the weight and the responsibility of it. Like, why don't you lose some weight? Why don't you make your voice higher? Why don't you do something different with your hair? As if your worth and your personage should be bordered.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Our job as artists is to show you a human being. Human beings are vast. It's only in movie and TV land where the guy who gets the girl, the girl always has to look cute. The first scene, if the guy is cute, the woman has got to be cute. If there is a great best friend, then she's usually overweight. She's really, really funny. And my thing, that's not my world. I don't understand that world. The world is way more vast than that. And it's our job to be the conduit, to bring the audience that truth. And I think that's what Shonda rhymes and that's what, um, and Pete Nowak,

• 55:39Speaker 01

  who is a showrunner, was the showrunner of How to Get Away with Murder, and Steve McQueen saw in me.

• 55:45Sam Fragoso?

  What did it feel like to be seen?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Feels free, man.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  You know, when other people see you, then it forces you to see yourself. You know, after a while, when a culture defines you,

• 56:03Speaker 01

  your family defines you, you become trapped in definition and labels. Somewhere in there is you. You know you're in there somewhere, but you don't even know who you are anymore. You sort of filter it into a profession in order to get the job. And then all of who you are gets sort of left in a room somewhere. Because you feel like it has to look a certain way. No, it doesn't. Sanford Meisner says the most important question an actor can ask is why. I'm gonna redefine that question.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  I think the most important question anyone can ask is why. And then when you get to the end of why, the most really powerful question you can ask is why not? Why can't I be the way I am now? Why can't I have muscular arms? Why can't I have a deep voice? Why can't I be a love interest? Why do I have to be thirty-five?

• 57:11Sam Fragoso?

  Why can't you be that confident performer that you were at Juilliard?

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Well, the world hadn't gotten to me yet.

• 57:21Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, so now it's gotten to you.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, the world has gotten to me.

• 57:24Sam Fragoso?

  Is this what it looks like to be got to?

• 57:26Speaker 01

  Yes, this is what it looks like to be got to.

• 57:28Sam Fragoso?

  I tell you, it looks pretty damn good.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  But thank you very much. But what I needed to do is press the pause button and work on the other part of me. You know, the thing about it is I

• 57:42Speaker 01

  I remember every time I would do a really great performance, I would feel so jazzed and so happy. And then go home. And Violet didn't feel like anything if she wasn't working. If she wasn't on stage doing a monologue that made everybody cry and stand up and throw flowers, then she was worthless. And as soon as I stepped off the stage, it was like unplugging a phone and the phone losing its charge. The rest of my life looked like a wasteland.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  And I've realized once again is the reason why I wanted to be a great actress is because I just wanted to be somebody.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  But that ain't it.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  It's just not it.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  You know, Joseph Campbell talks about slaying dragons and going out there and with mentors and allies. And then you finally get to that inmost cave where you come face to face, not with God, but with yourself. And what I realize is I was always worthy.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  I didn't have to do anything for that. And then it makes you look at your work totally different. It's not the power chord anymore.

• 59:06Sam Fragoso?

  So what is?

• 59:08Speaker 01

  I'm the power chord.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  I am. Every single day when I wake up and put my feet on the floor, my job is to not betray myself. Acting is just one aspect of who I am. And every single time I betray myself, that's it. It's like I've unplugged myself once again. It's what gives my life meaning, which by the way, what gives my life meaning is my story, completely embracing it.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  You know, I'm worthy. Who knew?

• 59:44Speaker 01

  I didn't think that I, I, my big thing is, okay, the bedwetter Viola, who would chuck a finger all the time and call people cocksucker, motherfucker at six years old. It was the hardest sentence to write in the book, by the way. No one wanted me to open the book with cocksucker, motherfucker, were my favorite words when I was growing up. But I wanted to capture little Viola. Little Viola was fantastic.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  She did not betray herself ever. She was extremely inappropriate. She was extremely rough around the edges. She smelled.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  She was unruly.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  She had three pink slips and four white slips, disciplinary action and, you know, and every single day was in detention.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  But she was Viola. She was alive. And every single time I feel like I have to go back to heal her, she's sitting on some bench somewhere, imaginary bench, saying, "You don't have to heal me. I'm perfectly fine. I'm waiting for you to heal yourself so we can just sit and just squeal about this friggin' life that we both created." Because I'm the one who got thrust out into the world and let other people get at me.

• 1:01:08Sam Fragoso?

  Your husband said, "Viola is never far away from that little girl she talks about. She's never forgot her."

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Sam Fragoso?

  You think he's right?

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  You know what? When I think about her, it's the only thing that really makes me enjoy my life.

• 1:01:27Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean?

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Because it gives me perspective. I talk about my therapist, you know, when I said, "I gotta, you know, it's my job to heal this little girl because she was really traumatized because of the violence in the house." He was like, "Why? I thought she was pretty brave."

• 1:01:43Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  She, she, she got it done. It's a 55, it was 55, 55-year-old Viola that needs help. I was like, "Excuse me. I'm evolved." He was like, "Let her squeal."

• 1:01:56Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm. I only have two questions left for us because then we gotta go.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:02:00Sam Fragoso?

  But speaking of perspective, um, in 2008, around Doubt, when most people were introduced to you and your artistry, you were 43 years old then. And you did this interview on NPR where they asked you about recognition. Does it mean anything now that you've received the Oscar nomination? And I just want to listen to what you said back then. This is you back in 2008.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  I don't care what they say. The bottom line is they want to do something that moves people, that affects them in some way. Or else, what you do is kind of meaningless. So when you get all the buzz and the reaction, you know it's hitting someone.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  The part that means nothing is the part that hasn't translated into anything tangible. Buzz doesn't pay the mortgage. Buzz doesn't... You know, buzz is buzz. And it's also what you don't really do the project for. And I always kind of feel, you know, it's just me. It's, once again, they're going to find me out. They're building me up just to knock me down. You know, that's the part that doesn't mean anything. Because you know what? At the end of the day, you got to keep working. I am a theater-trained actress. I'm not a fluke. I'm not a body. I'm not a face. I'm an actor. I want to be able to do what Helen Mirren,

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Meryl Streep, all of them are doing. That is my dream.

• 1:03:35Sam Fragoso?

  Seventeen years later, as you turn 60 this year.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's getting deep.

• 1:03:41Sam Fragoso?

  You say, "I'm not a fluke. I'm not a body. I'm not a face. I'm an actor."

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:52Sam Fragoso?

  To say that after all that you had been through, to get to that performance in Doubt, to stand on that and to know then, I guess now that you have lived up to everything that you said you wanted to do there, what is the dream for you?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Two things. I'm always trying to find home.

• 1:04:14Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  And I tell my daughter all the time. I give her that quote, you know, how silly of me that I did not know that I was the love of my life. I'm beginning to understand that. So that, number one. Number two... It's my job in life because we will be no more. It's coming and we don't know when it's coming. It's some deep shit out there. But here's the thing. I see life as a relay race. Where you see a relay race and you see all the great runners. Each one that runs their leg of the race is a great runner in and of themselves.

• 1:04:54Sam Fragoso?

  So you're passing the baton.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  I'm passing the baton, man, to the next great runner. I need to leave something in people. I do. And you have that dash of time to be able to do it, to be able to make that change. And I think that that, pretty much, the twofold of loving oneself and leaving something behind, I think that's what makes a life.

• 1:05:21Sam Fragoso?

  Anne Lamont writes, "You can either leave something for people or you can leave something in people."

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  And when you leave something in them, it burns like an ember. It does. It's, it's, it burns forever. You have a lot of people, like Anton Chekhov said, who are living lives in quiet desperation. And all of us can be healers if we choose, whatever we choose, we choose as an elixir to heal. You could be fabulous at what you're doing. You can even make a lot of money doing it. But ultimately, if the goal is not for it to burst into the air and have it mean something to someone, then you're not doing anything.

• 1:06:07Sam Fragoso?

  Your elixir, since time immemorial, was observation, has been observation. And my last question for us. Can you tell me about, as an observer and thief and actor, that woman on the corner, standing in the freezing cold weather that you saw as a child?

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  I think the one reason why I became an actor is because I see her.

• 1:06:34Sam Fragoso?

  And who is she?

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Oh, she's everything.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  She's a little girl who played with Barbie dolls, who wanted to be somebody. She's probably someone who had a really deep laugh. She's someone who probably fell in love with everything in her being and maybe got her heart broken. She's someone who's worthy of love, belonging. I see her. And I think that's why I became an artist is because I see her.

• 1:07:08Sam Fragoso?

  When you saw her, where was she at?

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  She's so many people.

• 1:07:12Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Growing up in Central Falls, on Dexter Street, on Broad Street. You know, with the cigarette and the bad skin.

• 1:07:20Sam Fragoso?

  The bloodshot eyes.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  The bloodshot eyes.

• 1:07:22Sam Fragoso?

  The dirty sneakers.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Dirty sneakers.

• 1:07:24Sam Fragoso?

  The corduroy coats.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Corduroy coat, you know, that with the faux fur in the inside and the jeans that don't fit. I think that by the time she makes it to the screen, she's been so filtered down into a version, um, acceptable version of herself. And I think that when you water her down into an acceptable version of herself, you're telling her that you don't love her.

• 1:07:46Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  You're telling her that you're not meeting her where she is. I meet people where they are. If a role calls for me, take my wig off or to have no makeup or to have snot coming out of my nose because that's who the person is, then I am honoring their truth. It's that that's reconciling little Viola. Little Viola who went to school, whose teacher said, "You gotta go home because you smell so bad." You know? I didn't feel worthy because I felt like I had to filter myself down. I had to go through a machine of worthiness. And worthiness is nothing to be bartered with. It's as is.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  You are worthy as is. Right now, as my daughter said, when she saw this homeless man in Chicago, it was the last day of Widows. She was six years old and we were in the car getting ready to go back to the trailer. It was over. And she said, "Oh, look at that homeless man. Look at Mama. He's dirty and he probably smells bad. Oh, my God." And then there was a big pause. And she said, "But he's my brother."

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  God says he's my brother. And I think that's the most beautiful, transcendent part of being an actor, is that when you meet people where they are and you channel them where they are, they become your brother. We're wired for connection. And sometimes, for me, that's where I got it from, in my art. And it's been my honor to do that. And sometimes, even if I fail, at least that was the objective.

• 1:09:43Sam Fragoso?

  To see the invisible?

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:46Sam Fragoso?

  To recreate them and make them visible to all of us?

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:09:50Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I hope you haven't been watered down or filtered in this conversation.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  No, it's been fantastic. Hope none of it gets me in trouble. But you know what? Here's the thing, you know, it's like John Lewis says, maybe I'll get into some good trouble.

• 1:10:05Sam Fragoso?

  I wish that for us both.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:08Sam Fragoso?

  And speaking of the work, how it lives in me, and I know so many people listening. Thank you. Thank you.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Thank you. I appreciate that.

• 1:10:22Sam Fragoso?

  Viola Davis. Appreciate you coming in.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you for having me.

• 1:10:47Sam Fragoso?

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  the two women into a blood-soaked world of desire, fear, and delirium. It's a world-expanding, genre-bending movie from one of the most distinctive filmmakers working today. Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma is now streaming exclusively on MUBI. You can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com/talkeasy. That's MUBI, M-U-B-I dot com slash talk easy for a whole month of great cinema for free.

• 1:12:06Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode with Viola Davis, be sure to share the program on social media. Tag us at Talk Easy Pod. I want to give a special thanks this week to Krista Dallas and the teams at Wolf Casteller PR. I also want to thank Amazon, Coleman Domingo, Tara Duncan, and our guest, Viola Davis. To learn more about her and her work, including her excellent memoir, Finding Me, visit TalkEasyPod.com. For more episodes, I'd recommend Kate Winslet, Joaquin Phoenix, and Tom Hanks. You can find those on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. You can also watch the

• 1:12:47Sam Fragoso?

  video version of this episode exclusively on YouTube. If you want to follow us on Twitter, Instagram, or TikTok, we're at Talk Easy Pod. If you want to purchase one of our mugs, they come in cream or navy, visit TalkEasyPod.com/shop. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janix Bravo. Today's talk was edited by Lindsay Ellis, Matt Sasaki, Adam Jamal, and Ariel Gardner. It was mixed by Andrew Vastola. It was taped on PodStream in New York City. Our music, as always, comes from Dylan Peck. Illustrations from Chris Shannoy. Photographs today are by Jenna Jones. Additional research from Pierce

• 1:13:28Sam Fragoso?

  Harvey. This episode was made in partnership with Lemonada Media and Higher Ground. And I'm Sam Fragasso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next Sunday with actor Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 1:13:41Sam Fragoso?

  Until then, stay safe and so long.

• 1:14:11Speaker 05

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• 1:15:31Speaker 06

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long-haul truck together.

• 1:15:39Speaker 03

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 1:15:43Speaker 06

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 1:15:45Speaker 03

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 1:15:48Speaker 06

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 1:15:52Speaker 03

  As I said.

• 1:15:54Speaker 06

  Find out what it's like to be a long-haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast, What It's Like to Be.