The Man, the Myth, the Monstrous Legend... Retelling the Odyssey for a Modern Odyssey

IT'S FINALLY TIME! Liv talks about writing her Odyssey retelling, reads from it, and answers a listener question about translation and retelling. Pre-order Liv's Odyssey adaptation (!!!), The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook. Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Sources: The Odyssey, translations by Emily Wilson, Richard Lattimore, AT Murray, and Ian Johnston. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So, check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 0:43Speaker 01

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• 1:39Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby! And I, I am your host, Liv.

• 1:49Liv Albert?

  And I'm back with another, a fresh episode, a new episode.

• 1:54Liv Albert?

  A slightly non-traditional episode because it is heavily me formally, finally, completely announcing my new book, my odyssey. And I'm going to answer some of your questions, and we're generally just gonna have a great time. And then next week, I'm probably going to talk about all of Zeus's crimes all over again, because it's been a while. But also, generally, if you all have a really early episode of this podcast, or a story that you're like, I know Liv could go into way more detail now, feel free to let me know. Send it either via Q and A, or on Spotify in the comments, however you want it. And you can submit yourself to the next Q and A episode at the link in the episode's description. And I'm just, this is, I'm going to

• 2:39Liv Albert?

  keep this in. I currently have my Greek gremlin cat, Anchovy Jr., aka Gavros, climbing all over everything. And the decision is being made whether he is permitted to stay in here because, oh, well, I think that's it. If that sound picked up, now you heard Anchovy getting kicked out.

• 3:13Liv Albert?

  The man, the myth, the monstrous legend, retelling the Odyssey for a modern audience.

• 3:35Liv Albert?

  Well, nerds, I have been talking about this, obviously, for months and months. You have heard about the ways that I've had to step back from new episodes of the podcast because of this book, and so many other things. But it is finally at a point where you can all go look at it on the internet, at least, and soon you will be able to look at it in a physical form in your own hands. I have a physical form in my own hands. And it's beautiful. It's beautiful. I'm so excited. And I just want to talk a little bit about what I wanted to do with this retelling. I'm going to answer some questions that you all conveniently left me about translations and retellings, or rather, I'm

• 4:17Liv Albert?

  going to make it a question about translation and retelling, among other things. And I'm going to read a little snippet of the book, if I didn't already say that. My Odyssey, as I've all, as I've mentioned to you all so many times, it is written for children. The age groups are nine to 12. But honestly, I mean, other than the fact that it is like fully beautifully illustrated in a child friendly way, I think generally the story itself that I was able to tell is overall just a great retelling of the Odyssey for people who don't want to read the entire Odyssey. And that brings me straight to the thing I am most proud of when it comes to my version of the Odyssey that I have been

• 5:00Liv Albert?

  lucky enough to to write and have published. And that is that while it is child friendly and actually written for children, something I've never done before in my life, it is simultaneously written by someone who does not normally write for children, but who does talk about these things in detail and is, if I do say so myself, pretty good at distilling the information. And so what I've been able to do with the Odyssey is convey a pretty, pretty accurate beat by beat story of the Odyssey, just shortened and granted a little less gory. But simultaneously, while the book is less gory, because Homer

• 5:44Liv Albert?

  was actually really gory, there's a lot of imagery of arrows flying through necks and such. But except for those explicitly gory details, I have also not kept, or I have not taken out any of the violence. And that to me was one of the really important things. My Odyssey is for children, but it is explicitly still the Odyssey in the form that Homer, whoever they may have been, gave it to us. I do not change the narrative structure. I do not make it child friendly by erasing any of the horrors, or the crimes, or the general lying nature of Odysseus. And it also is not making Odysseus into an

• 6:30Liv Albert?

  Anti-hero. He's not a hero either, but he's not an anti-hero. Or rather, he is a hero, but I also get to explain to children what that meant back then, which is not that he was inherently a good person who was always doing benevolent, good-for-humanity things, but simply that he was the hero of this story. And I think that's what's so important about the Odyssey and what I really, really wanted to do in my version. Just tell the Odyssey as it is told by the ancient Greeks, as it is given to us by Homer. Because the thing that I have found with every children's addition or retelling or version that I've found is that the number one thing that authors

• 7:14Liv Albert?

  do when trying to make this palatable to children is make it a chronologically sound story, i.e. Odysseus leaves Troy and he visits the Cocones, then he sees the Lotus Eaters, and then the Cyclops, and blah, blah, blah, right? Goes through his entire journey. He reaches Ithaca. Boom, the end. That is how it's always told, as if it is a story that is told in chronological order. But what makes the Odyssey so interesting and what you all have heard just from the first three books of this modern translation that I've been able to read to you all in the retelling episodes recently, or the reading episodes recently, rather, is that

• 7:56Liv Albert?

  the, this story is not chronological, and that is actually an inherently important plot device. Odysseus tells us what happened after he left Troy. He tells us what happened over the last nine years of his life. And obviously, we're generally meant to believe him. The ancient Greeks generally believed him, but it is still an inextricable part of his story that not only is Odysseus telling a group of people what happened to him, rather than Homer telling us what happened to Odysseus, it is entirely a third-person narrative. Odysseus is telling this story, which means

• 8:38Liv Albert?

  we are inherently meant to question what Odysseus is saying, because not only is he telling this story to a group of people who he has already openly lied to about who he is, or rather withheld the truth, but he actually begins his entire story to the Phaeacians like this. And I'm going to read you Emily Wilson's translation first.

• 8:59Liv Albert?

  I am Odysseus, Laertes's son, known for my many clever tricks and lies.

• 9:07Liv Albert?

  And how interesting is it that he begins his epic story where he's about to talk about all of the monstrous evils that he encountered and all of the ways that his thousands of men or hundreds of men were killed and, oh, it was mostly not his fault at all. Let me begin this epic story of survival that makes me look like the hero of my own story. P.S. I'm Odysseus, famous for lying. I think that is so invaluable and also like just an inherently more interesting story to read and conceptualize even for children. And so that is, I mean, that is one of countless things that I was really proud to do. We don't cut out the violence. We don't cut

• 9:49Liv Albert?

  out the horror. We do make it palatable for children. But we, I, told The Odyssey as Homer told The Odyssey. And as far as I could tell from what I've found, I am one of the few people to have attempted that in children's literature. And I think that's so important. And I'm not trying to make myself seem like the first of anything. I just think it is so inherently important that if we are going to retell a story like The Odyssey, like Homer generally, if we are going to present those stories for children, why would we fundamentally change that story into something that it is not? I understand making things more appropriate for children, not introducing them to certain things at certain ages, all for it. But why

• 10:34Liv Albert?

  would we inherently change the narrative of this story?

• 10:39Liv Albert?

  It, it, it doesn't need to be chronologically sound because it wasn't, and that wasn't the point. So overall, the number one thing I wanted to do with this children's retelling is present The Odyssey to the children. The Odyssey in as pure a form as I could make it, as contextual, as honest, as detailed. There are countless places where I am presenting the readers with brand new information, with contextual details, even things as simple as Homeric turns of phrase. I felt so strongly and I'm so excited to have gotten those pieces into this book.

• 11:23Liv Albert?

  My Odyssey starts first with a letter to the reader, and I think that is the perfect way to introduce it to you all as well, because this is where I was able to, at least in a much shorter form than what I've done for you here, lay out exactly what I was trying to do with the Odyssey as I wanted to share it. This is a portion of that letter to the reader. "The Odyssey is messy and confusing, and that's exactly what makes it so exciting. Odysseus isn't the kind of hero we're used to. He's not out to sacrifice himself to save the world, his crew, or even his own family. The word 'hero' comes from ancient Greek,

• 12:05Liv Albert?

  but 3,000 years ago, heroism didn't mean always being a good person. A hero was famous for adventure, battles, and fighting monsters, usually with a god's help. Odysseus is fun and interesting because sometimes he does great things that today we would call heroic, and at other times, he does terrible, violent things. Odysseus also tells lies, a lot. In fact, he tells so many lies that he was famous throughout ancient Greece for being clever, creative, and the most talented liar of all time. This mix of good and bad, weird and wonderful, funny and sad, truth and lies, is what makes the Odyssey so brilliant. Homer doesn't tell you what to think about Odysseus.

• 12:47Liv Albert?

  He doesn't try to convince you that this is a really nice guy who had some bad luck and wants to get home to his family. Instead, Homer tells you all the things Odysseus actually did, as well as all the things he claims he did, and then lets you decide what you think of him. Usually, the adults who write kids' versions of the Odyssey try to make it easier to understand by changing the order of the story and by ignoring many of the bad things Odysseus does and the stories and lies he tells along the way. 'Not me. I'm not going to give you a sugar-coated version of Odysseus's exploits. I think you can handle the real story', just as Homer told it to the ancient Greeks around 3,000 years ago, except much, much shorter.

• 13:31Liv Albert?

  And now, just a little taste. Here are two selections that you can find available as the preview of the book, wherever books are sold, or at the link in the episode's description. And what I've selected from those previews are the two spreads that introduce Odysseus.

• 14:03Liv Albert?

  Every Greek warrior who survived the Trojan War made it home across the wine-dark sea, all except for Odysseus, king of Ithaca. Nine years after the war ended, and almost twenty years after he had left to fight the war, Odysseus was still very far from home, stranded on the island of Ogaia. He was being held there by a goddess called Calypso, who wanted him to stay with her forever. She was ready to make Odysseus immortal, like her, but he didn't want immortality. All he longed for was to go home to his wife, Penelope, and their son, Telemachus, who was just a newborn baby all those years ago when Odysseus set sail for Troy.

• 14:47Liv Albert?

  From their palace high on Mount Olympus, the gods watched as Odysseus gazed sadly out to sea, thinking of home with tears in his eyes. Zeus's favorite daughter, Athena, was desperate to help Odysseus, but the other gods disagreed. They were much more concerned about King Agamemnon, the leader of the Greek armies, who had been murdered in his own home after he returned from Troy. "But father," Athena begged, "Agamemnon's killer has already been punished. My hero, Odysseus, is still alive. We must help him." "I haven't forgotten about Odysseus," Zeus told his daughter. But he knew his brother, Poseidon, the ruler of the seas, had not forgotten the king of Ithaca either.

• 15:30Liv Albert?

  The god of the sea absolutely hated Odysseus and wanted to harm him in any way he could. Yes, Odysseus has been away from home long enough, Zeus agreed. But bringing him home will not be easy. You are my wisest daughter. What do you suggest? Excitedly, Athena revealed her plan. "We have to hurry," she said. She too knew that Poseidon would do anything to stop Odysseus from getting home. "Please send Hermes, the messenger god, to tell Calypso she must let the king of Ithaca leave her island. I will go to Odysseus's son and set our plan in motion." Zeus agreed to his daughter's request. Hermes soared down toward Calypso's island while Athena set off for Ithaca.

• 16:14Liv Albert?

  Episode 5: Poseidon's Curse

• 16:19Liv Albert?

  Swooping out of the clouds, the god Hermes skimmed over the ocean waves like a seabird down to Calypso's beautiful island. He found the goddess in her cozy cave. "Hermes, old friend, what brings you to my home?" she asked, looking up from her weaving. "There's a warrior stranded here, a man whose shipmates all died on the journey home from Troy," said Hermes. "Zeus commands you to send him home. It's not his fate to die here." "I can't believe this," Calypso exclaimed. "Zeus almost killed Odysseus. I'm the one who saved him. He's been with me for seven years and now the king of the gods suddenly decides he has to leave?" Hermes shrugged. "They're Zeus's orders, not mine." Calypso rolled her eyes.

• 17:02Liv Albert?

  "Then there's no point in arguing," she said. "Odysseus can go." "Send him on his way now, so you don't anger Zeus," Hermes instructed, and with that, he disappeared. Calypso found Odysseus in his usual place, sitting by the sea with tears in his eyes. "You can stop crying, Odysseus," she said. "You're free to leave." "This is a trick, surely," said Odysseus doubtfully. "And even if that's not, do you want me to die at sea? How am I supposed to cross that vast ocean?" Calypso smiled. "I understand why you are suspicious, but I swear I'm not trying to hurt you. It won't be easy, but if you really want to go home so badly, I'll help however I can." Odysseus sighed.

• 17:46Liv Albert?

  "I do want to go home, more than anything." The next day, Calypso gave Odysseus an axe, so he could cut down trees to build a raft. Then she handed him a large piece of fabric. "Here, this is yours. I've been working on it for years," she said. "Thank you, Calypso," Odysseus said. "This will make a perfect sail for my raft." After four days, the raft was ready and Calypso gave him fresh clothes for the voyage. Waving sadly, the goddess watched as Odysseus sailed into the distance. But a few days after he set sail, Odysseus's little raft was spotted by Poseidon, fearsome god of the sea. "Is that who I think it is?" growled the god. "That cursed mortal won't get far, not if I can help it."

• 18:32Liv Albert?

  Years earlier, Odysseus had angered Poseidon, and the god had issued a curse, that Odysseus would never be allowed to reach home safely. With his trident in hand, the sea god stirred up the clouds above and the seas below. In seconds, the sky grew dark with storm clouds and the waves began to surge. A huge wave crashed over Odysseus and his raft. Then, a mighty gust of wind snapped the mast in half and threw Odysseus into the churning waters.

• 19:17Liv Albert?

  This episode is brought to you by Quince. You know the drill. Quince makes elevated, everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. I have been speaking into a microphone about Quince for a while now, and I have no complaints. I have a bunch of their stuff. I've got a couple cute sweaters that, I mean, it's nearing sweater season, so those will be back in the rotation anytime now. And I have this leather bag that I absolutely love. It's like this- Braided leather and I use it like basically every day because that's the thing.

• 19:59Liv Albert?

  They have really great basics, like they have really great things that you can wear with so many other things, just the options are endless. And as the weather gets colder, like all the sweaters in my closet, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch. And of course, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And if we haven't learned anything in the last 10 years, isn't it just getting rid of the middlemen, you know, making things more affordable?

• 20:44Liv Albert?

  So find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was me. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

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• 21:59Liv Albert?

  Okay, that's all I can read. I, so I also recently recorded the audiobook, which is going to be available too. I read it better there because I had a producer who could tell me when to redo things. I had so much fun recording it, honestly. I, I'm really proud of this book in a way that I have so much anxiety about my accomplishments and rarely feel proud about anything, but I am so proud of how I was able to tell The Odyssey. Just as Homer told it, but shorter, kid-friendly, beautifully illustrated. I'm really proud. It's fucking accurate. It is The Odyssey, okay?

• 22:40Liv Albert?

  This book is The Odyssey. There is, you know, the only plot point that I intentionally can recall having to cut, the only plot point, because otherwise I tried to jam in every single bit that Homer gave us. The only plot point I cut out is when there's a story within a story where somebody is telling the story of the time that Aphrodite and Ares got caught fucking by the sun. And that is a great story. It is a great story. But maybe not for kids when I only had 35,000 words to tell the entire Odyssey. Still, if that is the only thing I can think of having cut out, that is why I'm so proud. Because otherwise, this is The Odyssey, as Homer gave it, for children,

• 23:24Liv Albert?

  rather than a completely rewritten story about Odysseus that happens to feature some similar plot points. This is The Odyssey by Homer, retold by me. Anyway, I'm going to answer some of your questions as well to finish this off, but I, I'm really proud of this book and it's been, it's been in the works for so long. I mean, a year ago, well over a year ago now, actually, my editor, because I was, I was actually contracted to write a different book that was gonna be nice, but way less exciting. It's gonna be good, but it was way less exciting. And my editor, my publisher emailed me, I think it was like early January of last year and said, "What if you wrote The Odyssey?"

• 24:10Liv Albert?

  And I nearly lost my mind. I mean, that was arguably, inarguably, actually, the, the most exciting email I've gotten in a very, very long time, if not ever. And now it's real and it's, it's in my arms. I'm holding it right now and it's really beautiful. And this epic story that has always been my favorite, that I can safely say introduced me to Greek mythology broadly. You know, my, my first book is jokingly dedicated to Odysseus, my first love. And that feels really appropriate that this is, while it's not my first book, I'll be perfectly frank with you guys. This is the first book where I own the copyright.

• 24:52Liv Albert?

  This is the first book that is mine forever, rather than a thing I wrote for Simon and Schuster and which granted has gotten me a lot of places and has made a lot, a decent amount of money. I mean, for, for a book like that. But I don't own the copyright and I wrote what they wanted me to. And there's a lot of typos that they didn't fix. And you know, I love it, but am I the most proud of it? Not compared to this. And this one,

• 25:21Liv Albert?

  this one, I own the copyright. Okay, I'm gonna stop. I'm, I'm really excited and I did want to make this episode not entirely just me talking about my odyssey. But then I got going. So I'm gonna answer at least one question, just to finish things off because it relates to this. So they said, among other lovely things, and this was in reference to the Joshua Cannon episode conversation I released recently. They reference a translation that Josh mentioned and then said, anyway, he claims that there is the one translation that the, that's the most literal possible. Anything you might blame on the translator, you just can't because it's been translated word for word and it's like that in the original. But as a translation student, I know that doing so is as close to impossible as you

• 26:03Liv Albert?

  can get. I mean, the translator must have made some choices, the ever famous Hetera, Heterai, or is it companion or is it prostitute and so on? What is your take on this?

• 26:15Liv Albert?

  And Alex, I was so glad that you asked this and said other really nice things that I don't have time to read all aloud, but thank you. Because I think that this is a great opportunity to talk a little bit more about translation, but also what it means to do a retelling, like what I did, as compared to obviously something like a translation, which is a completely entirely different beast.

• 26:39Liv Albert?

  So if I'm not incorrect, the translation that Joshua Cannon was mentioning was the Latimer, I believe. The Latimer translation is one of the most commonly read. It is the translation I read in university. This was before Emily Wilson, so I don't know. I hope that her translation is regularly used in university classes now. I liked the Latimer, but I inherently love Emily Wilson's so much more. But the Latimer has always been that, and so that's why I think it's that it could be the Fagels, apologies if I'm getting it wrong. There is one that is generally accepted as the quote unquote "most literal" translation. But as you said, there is no such thing as a literal translation. And so I don't want to put words

• 27:24Liv Albert?

  in Josh's mouth, but I know that he knows the languages well enough that I'm gathering what he kind of meant was on a broader sense, the most literal, like the most literal it can be when you take into account everything that you have just said, which is that, yeah, nothing can be an actual literal translation. And I'm so glad you used the example of Hetera, because that is the best example of translational choices, but also about just how words mean many things. I mean, I think English is a great example. We don't tend to think about it this way, because English is, you know, in the case of, I think, most of us, certainly not all, our first language. And so we don't think of the ways that translation fits in

• 28:08Liv Albert?

  with with something like English. But I think of English and the ways that we have, we have words that are spelled exactly the same, pronounced exactly the same, but mean different things. Or we have words that are spelled the same, pronounced differently, and mean different things. Read, read, and read. Three different words, two of them look like they are spelled exactly the same, but have different pronunciations and different tenses based on that pronunciation. That's crazy. So those are always going to be questions that a translator has to answer. Those are always going to be selections that a translator has to make, because Greek is the same. There are

• 28:48Liv Albert?

  Words that are similar enough, but you have to be able to tell from the context clues, which word is actually meant. Or in the case of hetera, a word can have very different meanings, right? Hetera, for all of you, I, I, you've probably heard me dwell on it before, but hetera is a word that means, ultimately objectively means companion in a literal sense, but tends to be translated differently based on the context. Because hetera sometimes meant companion, like sex worker companion,

• 29:29Liv Albert?

  like escort type companion, not always sex, very much a paid though companion, but still a companion, right? So sometimes hetera is, sometimes a hetera, heterai, plural, is a sex worker because they are paid. Or sometimes they are just a companion. Heteros is of course the masculine version of hetera. And heteros means companion in the same way that hetera means companion, but doesn't usually, surprise, surprise, include the connotation of sex work. I actually don't know if we, like what we have in the record of, of male sex workers or whether they would be called heteros or something else. But we also, I should clarify too, hetera, heterai are a specific type of sex worker,

• 30:14Liv Albert?

  a bit of like a higher end, like I said, a little bit more like a, an escort, a companion. Literally you're paying for the companionship more specifically than the sex generally. And I say that because there is a work, a, a name for a, um, a sex worker in the more prostitute kind of word in that, you know, they are typically selling their body for somebody else. It's less, you know, in empowering situation, a, a more traditional unfortunate situation of a, of a sex worker, or not necessarily unfortunate, but just a different situation for a sex worker or literally called pornai.

• 30:55Liv Albert?

  So you have the like lower tier, pornai, porno, pornos, uh, and the higher tier, which is hetera, heteros. And so, but heteros is the word that is used to describe, say, patrickus when it comes to Achilles. But it's also the word to describe, I would imagine, I haven't pulled up the Greek to confirm, but it's also a word that I know is regularly translated to comrade, as in like a comrade in arms, somebody who is a friend, a companion, but in that more specific, um, you know, context of say, at war, these men in battle are also often heteroi, the masculine version.

• 31:38Liv Albert?

  They are companions, comrades, all of these things. And so, yes, a translator will always have to make those choices. I think when it comes to this literal translation is what we're talking about is that there are fewer. I think it's more of like, because ancient Greek, um, the, the ancient Greek language, the, um, like sentence structure is nothing like English could ever imagine being. Like it's just a completely different format of sentence structure of, of word order, all of these things. The first word in the Odyssey is man.

• 32:18Liv Albert?

  So just as a interesting example of how this kind of functions, um, I'm going to just read out to you the first handful of words in the Odyssey so that you can understand what I mean about this word order and how it just functionally is not like English and therefore, yeah, I'm going to read that. Um, excuses to anyone who, who knows ancient Greek. I have never formally learned. Um, so a lot of this is just things I've picked up. I could be wrong about little things, but for the rest of you, you're going to understand the purpose from what I can explain. It's well enough. So the first words of the Odyssey in ancient Greek,

• 33:01Liv Albert?

  because I just feel like you'll want to hear that and I want to do it is, andra moy enep musa politropon jos malapola. Okay. Man, the first word is man, andra. Andra moy enep. If I'm not wrong, that means man sing to me of. But then it says muse, musa, because that is actually who is being asked. So it's more like man or man of him sing muse. Polytropon, polytropon is, uh, is many devices, many turns, many ways.

• 33:42Liv Albert?

  So it goes man of sing to me muse, many ways. Who had bad things. Hos malapola is literally like many bad. No, something like that, honestly. Like, and so you can kind of get this idea, like the order of the words, like the, the first lines in this.

• 34:07Liv Albert?

  This is the translation, um, by A T Murray that I'm looking at just because it's the lobe and it has the Greek with it. So of it go and ramoy and the pay musa, polytropon hos malapola. That's the first line in Greek. Then the first line in English that they put it as tell me muse of the man of many devices driven far astray. Blah, blah, blah. So we have to change the order of everything because you can't just start with man. Because the man is the subject of the sentence, not is he? Yes, I'm really bad. The object of the sentence. I'm really bad with actual grammatical stuff. In any case, it, it is not about the man. It is about the muse singing of the man. So you can't just start it with the order, like it doesn't make any sense. I'm going to stop because it's, it's rambly, but it, it gets this clear idea.

• 34:52Liv Albert?

  Okay. So you always have to make choices. And so that's what I think generally is the intention behind how it was phrased with the Latimer. Because the Latimer is accepted as literal, but in the way of not, um, because the other thing that translators have to do with Greek is like Greek can say in 10 words, what English would say in 30. And so that also is part of it is phrasing things, you know, closer to the grammatical structure of the Greek. So I realize I could just pick up the Latimer and also read you all what that, what that means. Um, so the first line of Latimer's is tell me muse of the man of many ways, who was driven far journeys after he had sacked Troy's sacred citadel.

• 35:37Liv Albert?

  So you can see how the sentence structure is a little bit clunky in English, right? Tell me muse of the man of many ways who was driven far journeys after he had sacked Troy's sacred citadel. It's not how we would form a sentence in English. It makes the point, it is, you know, it is conveying Homer's words. It's understandable in English, but it's not necessarily how we would naturally phrase a sentence in English. And so that's generally what the literal translation is meant. And it's things that it's taking less poetic license, using, I think, similar like number of words, very just more strict to the words, still choices obviously being made.

• 36:22Liv Albert?

  I mean, even in the ways of politropos. Politropos is not a word that exists in English. I've talked about it lots, so I won't go into it. But, you know, Emily Wilson translates it as complicated. I love that because I think complicated actually conveys what Odysseus is. Dudes, angry, fragile dudes tend to think that complicated means that you're insulting Odysseus. And I think that says a little bit more about them than it does us. Cause hey, guys, guys, being complicated is good. It's good. No one wants a simple, simple man. And I don't even love Odysseus as a human, but, and so, you know, there are always going to be choices that are made.

• 37:00Liv Albert?

  But there is, there are ways to have a translation be generally more literal than another. And I think that is the intention in the Latimer. And I think it leads directly into this, this question of retelling, right? Because retelling is its own entirely different beast. In my case, I read, you know, I read Emily Wilson's Odyssey at least two or three times prior and during the writing of the book. But I also, at every point where I was making decisions about how I was going to phrase my Odyssey, I was also looking to other translations, be it the Latimer or often the Lobes online.

• 37:47Liv Albert?

  The Perseus Project online, if you're ever curious about clicking around Ancient Greek, the Perseus Project is a great way. That's what I've learned a handful of things just by like, being a nerd. Um, and so I would go through and make all these decisions because I also didn't want to only go with Emily Wilson's translation, right? I was heavily using hers because it's my preference to read, but what I wanted to do was tell Homer's Odyssey. And so anytime that something might have stood out to me, or a detail, a phrasing that that stood out as like, hmm, I wonder, you know, what kind of choices are being made here? I was going to the Greek

• 38:28Liv Albert?

  and digging through and figuring out how I wanted to tell the story. Okay, here's my silliest, best example of this. I'm gonna peek behind the curtains and tell you all how I wrote the final scene, um, where spoilers, not actually, if you all don't know the Odyssey, then you need to be listening to more episodes of my show. Um, the final scene when Odysseus like reveals himself, right? And he's like, you know, he was in his old man disguise, and then suddenly he's young and spry, and he's naked, and he jumps on a table, and he's like, hello, I'm here. That's not what he says, but I'm getting to what he says, and that's the point of this story.

• 39:09Liv Albert?

  This is how Emily Wilson translates this big reveal. Um, Odysseus ripped off his rags, now naked. He leapt upon the threshold with his bow and quiver full of arrows, which he tipped out in a rush before his feet and spoke, "Playtime is over. I will shoot again towards another mark. No man has hit." Playtime is over is the key that I wanted you all to hear here. So Emily Wilson translates Odysseus' first line after the big reveal. He's just killed a suitor, a young, audacious and shitty dude by shooting him straight through the neck. He's just done that.

• 39:47Liv Albert?

  And then he reveals himself and she's got him saying playtime is over. And I was like, well, I'm obsessed with this, but obviously this is a choice, a very specific choice that Wilson has made. So what is my choice going to be? And, and now instead here's a little taste of the Latimer. And again, you're gonna get an unintentional in this point. I just wanted to say the playtime is over line. Um, but you're gonna get a sense of what it means that Latimer is more literal. Okay. So Emily Wilson goes, playtime is over. I'm home. I'm going to kill you all. Whatever he said, right? Whereas Latimer says, I'm gonna read the whole beginning because it's, it's honestly, it's really dweeby. Now resourceful Odysseus stripped his rags from him and sprang up atop the great threshold,

• 40:28Liv Albert?

  holding his bow and the quiver filled with arrows and scattered out the swift shafts before him on the ground next to his feet and spoke his words to the suitors. Here is a task that has been achieved without any deception. Like, okay, okay. Those were words, Latimer? They were words, you know? Was it as fun as Odysseus jumping on a table stripping naked and saying playtime is over? No. So that, that is what I mean by literal translation. That is what Josh Cannon meant by literal translation. You can get the sense, right? He's getting, Latimer has gone with like, the level of, of depth that the Greek did, but the Greek also, you know, is working with different things that,

• 41:09Liv Albert?

  that their audience is more used to, whereas we don't necessarily need all of those details, you know, before something so, so dramatic, right? It's a little bit taking it away. The sentence structure is awkward. There's so many added details, so many commas of these additional bits and pieces, you know, and whereas somebody like Wilson made a choice to slim it down. Wilson was also working in the, she was working with, um, not the original, um, rhyming structure because it doesn't really function in English. Um, but instead with iambic pentameter, I believe, which is a Shakespearean, um, poetic structure.

• 41:49Liv Albert?

  Because it does work with English. And so she was working within those structures too, to get the same sense that you would in Greek, but the same, you know, thematic, the same poetic structure that you would get in Greek, when translated more literally like the Latimer, you don't get the, the actual, the poetic impact. You don't get the beats, you don't get, because as you might have heard when I was reading the Greek, which I'm terrible at, and yet still, you can get the sense of how the poetic beats typically happen in the ancient Greek.

• 42:23Liv Albert?

  Right? Andromaein epimus apolithropon hos malapola. I'm terrible at it. Those are not the inflections that you're meant to have, but you can still hear how there would be, like, that is the poetic structure. It's beats, it's like very, they're, the way they speak is very specific. This, this whole little bit is a little bit unnecessary because next week, um, next Friday, not this Friday, I have an episode coming with, um, wait, no, maybe it's in a couple of weeks. Either way, it's a certain, certain somebody who translated a certain Odyssey.

• 42:55Liv Albert?

  You know, you know, anyway, that's coming up soon. It was really cool. I got to pick some brains. Anyway, so that will be more detailed about somebody who actually knows how to talk about this stuff, but you can still get this sense, right, of how, there are so many different versions. I realize I was talking about retellings. I'm getting back into it. I apologize for the ADHD. Here we are. Whereas you get this A.T. Murray translation where I was reading the Greek from who says, that Odysseus says, here now is the end of this clear contest, and now another mark. And he goes on. Or the Johnston, who has Odysseus saying, this contest to determine who is best is over, but there's another target. And he goes on, right?

• 43:37Liv Albert?

  Emily Wilson's playtime is over, is a choice, but it's a choice that I personally was like, well, this is delightfully fun. And, you know, how can I have similar fun with this big reveal? I think that, obviously, whatever, what Homer was trying to convey was this big, enormous reveal that this old man that the suitors have just been, you know, beating up, basically. Basically is actually Odysseus. You want that heavy impact of of a line. And so while playtime is over, little silly is utterly delightful. And I wanted to have just as much fun with with my line. And so what I have Odysseus saying in my retelling, not a translation, so I get to make all the choices that I want.

• 44:23Liv Albert?

  It's payback time. Because choices can be made. And while translation is meant to convey the work that is being translated, it is also meant to convey the intention. And when a work is like Homeric, it, you know, is 27 plus 100, 2700 plus years old. There are choices that any translator should and does make in order to make their version, not just, you know, a, an accurate conveyance of what the original Homeric text was trying to do,

• 45:05Liv Albert?

  but also something that is enjoyable to the modern English reader. So translators are always making those choices. Retellers like myself, always making even bigger choices, because when it comes to retelling their, you know, I, I made it my personal goal to have my retelling be as true to Homer's Odyssey as physically possible. But that is not something that is inherent to retellings. Retellings, as they function are, they are reception of the ancient world, right? You, they are meant to be re-imaginings, a complete re, re, I'm just gonna say reimagining it, a complete reimagining of of what the epic was in order to make it,

• 45:49Liv Albert?

  you know, work for the, the modern author's purposes. Now, in my case, again, my entire purpose was to just be like, this is what Homer gave you, but in a really fun and, you know, comprehensible way. But that's not always the goal. And, and so that's where you get into retelling as well. So. There are just, there are so many ways to interact with the ancient world to make it fresh and new and beautiful for new readers, young readers, people who are just newly learning this, this stuff. You want it, I mean readable for people who don't have English as their first

• 46:29Liv Albert?

  language, who are still learning English even, or you know, there are just so many things that go into this, this world, be it translation, or retelling, or you know, everything in between, obviously very different things. I'm not trying to suggest that I'm anywhere near a translator. My god, translators are unbelievably skilled. Um, but it's just so interesting to look at how all of these things kind of come together to, to form modern understandings of the ancient world for everyone. Um, and I'll, I'll leave it there because like I said, I might've recorded a certain conversation with a certain somebody whose name I have said a handful of times this

• 47:10Liv Albert?

  episode. It's been a big month. Um, so that is coming soon. And if you can believe it, uh, she has a lot more to say about translational choices and, and everything that goes into it. Um, so stay tuned for that. And in the meantime, do you have more questions? Obviously I only answered one. I had planned to do more, but then I just kept talking. So I would love to do another full converse or full Q and A episode. If any of you have questions about the Odyssey, or literally anything about the ancient world, you know how much I love to ramble and how many new ideas and things that always brings along. So please feel free to submit another question. Um, mythsbaby.com/ questions. You can find the link in the episode's description. We also are

• 47:54Liv Albert?

  doing voice notes. So the next one, when I do a full Q and A episode, we're going to do some voice notes and however many questions I get. Um, so submit that however, but most importantly, Do you want to preorder my book? Because you can. I wrote the, I wrote, I wrote a retelling of the Odyssey and it's really beautiful and it's really accurate and it's really true to Homer and it's really real. And I'm really excited and I got to teach children a little bit about the Bronze Age and the complexities of Greek myth and the oral tradition. And honestly, this, this book means a lot to me. And also, um, you know, took a lot out of me because the world is horrifying and I'm pretty sure I'm heckin autistic and trying to figure the fuck that out.

• 48:33Liv Albert?

  In any case, preorder my book, um, because your favorite rambling mythology gal, um, is, is really excited. Um, my Odyssey, The Odyssey of Modern Retelling by Liv Albert, ah, ah, is available for preorder wherever you get your books. Uh, it is beautifully illustrated by Hassem Asif and he did amazing work. This piece is great. I'm so excited. Uh, I, I'm so excited. Find it wherever you get your books or there's a link in the episode's description. Um, I, I, I got to write the Odyssey and it's going to come out in June and it's going to be so beautiful.

• 49:13Liv Albert?

  And is it, is it going to be the most, um, accurate and, uh, accurately colorful, um, adaptation of the Odyssey this year? Maybe, maybe. It's certainly more accurate and colorful than the trailers I've seen.

• 49:34Liv Albert?

  Find, find Liv Albert's Odyssey. Jesus Christ, that's so weird to say. Find my Odyssey wherever you get your books. Um, and for those who don't know, preorders mean the whole world. For every preorder, every book that is preordered before the on sale date, uh, which for me is June 9th, every book that is ordered before June 9th will count towards the first week's sales, will count towards the first day's sales. Preorders are the thing that gets you on lists. Um, preorders are the thing that gets you honestly, everything. So, um, if you are able and you want to pre, preorder my Odyssey, it is for kids, but

• 50:15Liv Albert?

  also anyone who listens to me is going to love it because it is also just like a, a beautiful retelling of the Odyssey that's digestible and pretty and accurate and contextualized and delightful.

• 50:29Liv Albert?

  Let's Talk Old Myths, Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pankowicz is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer and new co-host sometimes of the show. Tell us how much you love that, because we both love it. Select music by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, which we have new shows coming out soon. So much is happening all at this one little bit of time, but more on that soon. Just, we're having, we're having a time over here. The world's on fire. I am thinking about the people of Iran and I, I want you all to get freedom and I, I, it, no, no country's freedom should be at the cost of their people

• 51:14Liv Albert?

  and no one country should get to be the arbiter of, of another country. There should not be a world police. Nobody elected the Americans as a world police. And also they're lying liars who lie about why they go to wars. So I'm thinking of the people of Iran and everywhere in West Asia. Maybe next week I'll tell you all the details of why the term Middle East is a colonizing term meant to destabilize and separate West Asia from the rest of Asia and turn it into a different world that we can bomb to shit and steal their

• 51:55Liv Albert?

  oil. So, um, anyway, thank you all so much for listening. Um, there's little bits of light and I'm, I don't want to make it about me, except I guess it is about me. The Odyssey, my Odyssey is, is my little burst of light in this otherwise painful world. And spoilers, my Odyssey also gives credit to all of those people in West Asia who came up with most of this shit before the Greeks did. So, so the kids will learn that too. Fucking pumped.

• 52:35Liv Albert?

  Woman with ADHD tries to announce pre-orders for her new book and just ends up rambling for an hour. I am Liv and I love this shit.

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