Edward VIII & Wallis Simpson: A Royal Scandal

In this episode, we explore the dramatic love story between King Edward VIII and the twice-divorced American socialite Wallis Simpson - a romance that shook the British monarchy to its core. Set against the backdrop of rising tensions in 1930s Europe, the scandal divided the government, the public and the royal family. And ultimately, Edward chose love over the crown. To hear all about this, we're joined by Kate Williams, a historian and broadcaster who specialises in Royal history. She unpacks how their romance spiralled into a constitutional crisis. Produced by Beth Donaldson and James Hickmann, and edited by Dougal Patmore. Dan Snow's History Hit is now available on YouTube! Check it out at: https://www.youtube.com/@DSHHPodcast Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. We'd love to hear your feedback - you can take part in our podcast survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on. You can also email the podcast directly at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Snow?

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• 0:32Speaker 01

  This is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The coolest flex at brunch these days is not the Bloody Mary with the bottomless gold flake caviar topping. It's not whipping out your wallet to pay. It's not having a wallet at all. Jack's been an Apple Card user since 2019. That's the same year he tossed his wallet in the trash. Because Apple Card holders earn 2% daily cash back on purchases made using Apple Pay. It's the only credit card designed for the iPhone. I tap to pay with Apple Card at the grocery store, at the gas station, at restaurants. And yes, I use it at my second home, the farmer's market. Jack tapping to pay with his Apple Card with Apple Pay is his favourite thing to do. And the pleasant vibration and chime sound means I just got 2% daily cash back on my latest purchase. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Apple Card, issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 1:26Dan Snow?

  No royal scandal has rocked Britain quite like this one. Well, unless you include Richard III possibly murdering his nephews, or, well, the time John starved his nephew to death, or that other time when Henry II's children all hooked up with the French king and tried to pose that, well, okay. No royal scandal in the modern era has rocked Britain quite like this one. Well, unless you don't particularly believe a Pizza Express in Woking as a valid alibi. But anyway, it's one of the greatest scandals in the history of the modern monarchy, okay? A member of the monarchy defies expectation and family, takes on social convention,

• 2:08Dan Snow?

  and marries a divorced American woman. The couple faced a brutal media storm. They're exiled from their family, they're chased out of their country, and they reinvent themselves with other media project to survive. I am, of course, talking about the marriage between Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson, the American socialite for whom he abdicated the British Crown in December 1936. He chose love over duty and caused not just a familial rift, but a constitutional crisis because he was head of the Church of England, which was against remarriage after divorce, and she had been divorced twice. His choice was unacceptable to the old fogies in the British government and many people within the British public. It was unprecedented.

• 2:53Dan Snow?

  The scandal reshaped the monarchy and made public the tensions between royal duty and personal desire, something that we still see today. So to explore this infamous episode in the monarchy's recent history, I'm joined by the wonderful Professor Kate Williams, who hosts the excellent Kings, Queens and Dastardly Things podcasts. This is Dan Snow's History at and the story of the scandal that rocked the royal family.

• 3:36Dan Snow?

  Kate Williams, great to have you on the podcast.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Good to see you, Dan.

• 3:39Dan Snow?

  Oh, it's good to see you. This is one of the great stories. Give us a sense of just how the Prince of Wales was a pretty cool character, wasn't he?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  The Prince of Wales was popular. He was loved. When he came to the throne, there was a lot of optimism about what a great king he might be. Of course, he'd had this investiture in 1911 as Prince of Wales to show off he was loyal to Wales and going to be a marvellous king, best king ever. Not quite that story.

• 4:05Dan Snow?

  No, no, it all goes wrong pretty quick. But he has movie star looks. His dad, George the Fifth, not the most charismatic guy in the world. So is there a sense he could be a king for this new age where kings were able to broadcast across the empire? There were film cameras, there was radio broadcast. He should have been the right man in the right place.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  He was the king for the modern age, just as you say. Seen as an early adopter of technology. George the Fifth was popular, but he was very much seen as a stolid old person who pretty much belonged in the Victorian era. But then we have this young, exciting, vibrant person who's going to lead the country into this exciting new technical age. We saw so many incredible inventions during the 1920s and 1930s. We see the growth of the aeroplane, we see medications developed, we see building technologies. All these new technologies, the car is becoming dominant. And Edward seems like just the king to lead Britain into future dominance.

• 5:00Dan Snow?

  So what's, okay then, what's the reality? Because as we know with royal families, there can be a little bit of a gap between what the public sees and what the reality is. Tell me about him growing up, family, brothers, dad and mum. What is his situation?

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Edward is born in 1894 and he's the eldest son of George and Mary. And of course, that means he's got his lineage right back to Queen Victoria. His grandfather is Edward the Seventh, his great grandmother is Queen Victoria.

• 5:28Dan Snow?

  She should have bounced him a lap, she was still alive.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  She was, didn't die till 1901. So he would have met Queen Victoria and he would have known her as a small boy. So he really has all the royal blood, all the royal glamour. He's there to take the throne, he's Mr. Popular. They have quite a difficult childhood. I think George the Fifth and Queen Mary aren't the most, we might say, modern loving of parents. It's a very strict upbringing. They have some rather cruel nannies who. Pinch them to make them cry, which will annoy their parents. But actually, you know, when he becomes a young man, he really throws himself into the world of a prince. And as we've seen with so many princes before, the Prince of Wales, Edward the Seventh, as it was a glamorous man about town, and the sons of George the Third, they spent every

• 6:13Speaker 02

  little penny they could on being on fast carriages and women and diamonds. Edward comes into this role of Prince of Wales and he's seen as a real glamour boy. Now, but what he also wants, which is very significant, is he does want to go to war with the other young men. He really wants to fight with the other young men. And that's denied really, because he would be too much of a kidnap risk, too much of a security risk.

• 6:35Dan Snow?

  Yeah, so he wants to go to the trenches. His brother goes and fights the navy. His brother's at the Battle of Jutland, the future George the Sixth. So he, well, he feels a bit insecure about that. He's not allowed to go and get involved.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yes, he tours and sees the suffering firsthand, but he's not allowed to be part of it.

• 6:50Dan Snow?

  Okay, so he's not happy about that. And as Prince of Wales, is he doing those kind of photo calls? He's visiting the troops on the front line. What's his role through the twenties and thirties?

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Prince of Wales, his role is one of royal visits. And when he comes, he's so popular. And there is this thought, this thinking, that he sees more of the suffering of the working class. Because of course, we see post in 1926, the general strike, just before the birth of his niece, Elizabeth the Second, the general strike and the suffering of the working classes. The working classes who fought so hard in World War One, they're now saying, what do we get back? So it is generally thought that he is someone who hears the working man. He understands the working man. It's famously said that when he's touring and sees poverty, he says, something must be done. So there are great hopes that he's not just a modern, technical, advanced king.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  He's also a very intelligent king, very handsome, movie star looks, as you say, but also that he's the kind of king that's going to give something that helped the working classes and really pay them back for this huge sacrifice they made in World War One.

• 7:55Dan Snow?

  Is there something modern about the way that he, or his mum had been a European princess? You're coming off a period where monarchs are just, and heirs to the throne are expected to marry European royalty.

• 8:07Dan Snow?

  Is he expected to do that? What's going on with his love life? Is his dad trying to hook him up with some German princess?

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Edward really is quite a modern man, and I think the idea is he's going to be allowed to make his own choice. He's going to be allowed to make his own choice among the British aristocracy.

• 8:25Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Just as George VI does, the future George VI.

• 8:28Dan Snow?

  His little brother.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  When he marries Elizabeth I. So I think that's going to be the vision, that he's going to make this kind of alliance. Because post-World War I, the idea of making a German alliance.

• 8:38Dan Snow?

  That's true.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Is going to be.

• 8:39Dan Snow?

  Well, there aren't many royals left.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  There aren't many royals left. You can't have the Catholic ones.

• 8:43Dan Snow?

  Russians, the Austrians, they're all gone.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Most of the royals are dead.

• 8:46Dan Snow?

  You don't want the Portuguese.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  The other ones that are still there are seen as the enemies. So the idea that Queen Victoria had, that marrying all her children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren into the royal families of Europe was going to create lasting peace, had been shattered by World War I.

• 9:02Dan Snow?

  Quite the opposite.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  So the idea, yes, quite the opposite, quite the opposite, actually made it worse. So the Cousins' War. So really, what you see with Edward is that David, as the family called him, is that, you know, you can probably make your own choice, but the right type of young lady, and that would mean aristocratic, that would mean young, that would mean a virgin.

• 9:22Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  And that's not who he wants to date.

• 9:25Dan Snow?

  And so who does he want to date?

• 9:27Speaker 02

  He wants to date the older, married woman. And in that, he's taking after grandpa. Grandpa Edward VII, he liked a married woman. He liked a nice, older, married woman. Because you know what's really great about a married woman?

• 9:42Dan Snow?

  Well, I can't answer that question. You tell me.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  You can hide the pregnancy.

• 9:46Dan Snow?

  Okay, right.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  If she gets, if she gets pregnant, you can hide it. And you can pay off the gentleman, the husband, with various estates. And that's the marvelous answer. So. He likes a married lady, but increasingly, he doesn't necessarily choose the married ladies of the British aristocracy, whose husbands turned a blind eye when it was Edward the Seventh, including, of course, Mrs. Keppel's husband turned a blind eye. He likes the American lady. He likes these glamorous, fun, rich Americans who are, I would say, really almost flooding into London at this point in the late 1920s, early 1930s. They are coming into London. They've got money, they've got glamour, they've got all these wonderful innovations in America,

• 10:32Speaker 02

  and he is fascinated by them.

• 10:34Dan Snow?

  But they have a huge weakness for a prince.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  They have a weakness for a prince. And do you know what he, apparently, his chat-up line to Wallace Simpson is?

• 10:41Dan Snow?

  No, I don't.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  He says, "I hear you've got good central heating in America." And she says, this, I love this, she says, "Everyone asks me about central heating. I don't want to talk anymore about central heating. Find something better." That's how he sees Americans, you know, new-fangled inventions. And she is, there's no deference.

• 11:01Dan Snow?

  Yeah, they answer back.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  None of this deference. She's, "I expect you to entertain me." So he gets very fond of all these American ladies. And he has a mistress, well, he's got a few mistresses, so various married, older, intelligent hostesses, the great hostesses, that's who he likes.

• 11:17Dan Snow?

  I've just realised that I've bought into the British propaganda about him, that he was a complete ne'er-do-well. But actually, that shows enormous taste. Rather than like chasing these teenage aristocratic English girls around, he likes sassy, intelligent, opinionated, older American women.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  That's what he likes. That's what he likes. Yeah, absolutely.

• 11:35Dan Snow?

  So I think that shows.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  He makes, what do you call a cougar prey? A cougar, I don't know, and they're not very much older. They're not very much older, but in the perceptions of the time, when a girl has to be so young and very much younger, it is pretty revolutionary.

• 11:47Dan Snow?

  Right, okay. So, and he likes emancipators as it were, women that can answer back, have intellectual discussion, talk about technology, yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  And also, I think the benefit to him of married ladies is not just that you can have sex with them and hide the pregnancy, but also that he can have various ones going at the same time. So he's usually got quite a circle of ladies. I guess we call it a throuple or, in the modern languages.

• 12:09Dan Snow?

  So he's more modern than I ever knew.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  You know, a collection of American ladies. Now, We might say that he's not spending an awful lot of time preparing for the throne. And his father, George, and his mother, Mary, who are obsessively moral, they're devoted to each other. They never had any other thoughts of anyone but each other. They find it totally baffling, the behaviour of the Prince of Wales. And it's kept out of the newspapers because it's not really appropriate. This isn't what the Prince of Wales is supposed to be doing.

• 12:35Dan Snow?

  Well, you say that, but every single descendant of George the first wasn't, well, nearly all of them were, complete wrongs.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Complete wrongs.

• 12:42Dan Snow?

  When it came to their romantic lives, I think you thought it wasn't appropriate. You should have read a family history.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Read a family history.

• 12:46Dan Snow?

  Oof. Okay, anyways, we've got Prince Edward, whose real name was David.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  They family called him David. It was his middle name.

• 12:52Dan Snow?

  It was his middle name.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  It was his middle name.

• 12:53Dan Snow?

  Always complicated.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Because you obviously have five names and then, well, your five or six names, and then the last name is your real name.

• 12:58Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  So it was like me being called Catherine and then six other names and then saying, well, actually, my name is the sixth name. And that's what I'm using, Leif, or whatever it might be.

• 13:06Dan Snow?

  So we got Prince Edward, also known as David. He meets Wallis Simpson. You've already teed it up with that terrible chat up line. Where and when do they meet?

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Well, he meets Wallis in 1931. And she's born in 1896. She grows up in Baltimore, Bessie Wallace Warfield. Her father dies and her mother is a bit dependent on relations. Then her mother remarries. There's a wealthy stepfather. She goes to a good school. And Wallis marries, aged 20, Wyn Spencer, a naval aviator. Now, he seems great on paper, but it's not a good marriage. He drinks, he's abusive. So she does divorce him in 1927, which is very radical. She divorces him in 1927. And there were some talks of various affairs. She goes to China and has a period of living in China. And then she meets Ernest Simpson, an Anglo-American shipping executive, who's a very different man to her first husband.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  He's kind, he's very thoughtful, and they marry. He divorces his wife, they marry, and they're in London. And they are making their way in high society, getting in huge amounts of debt as they do. But, you know, you can find this sometimes, can't you? And I've certainly had friends who've gone to live in other countries who've found this, that you can live in other countries and the hierarchies and the networks that are so important in your home country are overturned. And perhaps you can Head faster up the social scale if you're an expat that you wouldn't be allowed to do in the United States because you're not part of the right social grouping. In London, you can be free. So they are having these gigantic parties. They have a huge flat in Mayfair and she really gets very friendly with the in crowd around the Prince of Wales.

• 14:41Dan Snow?

  There's sort of propaganda around her that she was almost a sex worker whilst in China. Is there any, she just sounds to me like she's a normal person going through life but has had these two relationships.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Recent scholarship has actually gone into Wallace in China and said, no, there isn't any idea. All these rumours, weren't there, that she'd been a sex worker there and she'd learnt techniques there.

• 15:00Dan Snow?

  These mysterious techniques of the east.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  So it's all very oriental, isn't it? She learnt these sex techniques and that's what Edward was so gripped by. And when we see a similar, similar conversation about Amberlyn, don't we? They say about Amberlyn that she learnt techniques at the French court, including perhaps all sex, and that that was what tempted Henry VIII, which there's no evidence for it. But she was in China, but certainly she's much more international.

• 15:21Dan Snow?

  Worldly.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  She's worldly than any woman he's ever met before. He meets her in 1931. He makes that terrible question about central heating. And of course, that's a shock to a royal because royals expect the most boring question or terrible joke to be met with hysterical laughter. Oh, you're so funny, sir. Oh, how interesting. How prescient. And Wallace says, oh, not the central heating again. Now, she has a friend, Thelma Furness, who is the established partner, I don't really like the word mistress, established partner, she's married, of course, and they all are, established partner along with Frieda Dudley Ward of the Prince. And Thelma, in 1934, has to go back to America to look at some of her investments for three months. And she knows that our prince, our Edward, has an attention span

• 16:05Speaker 02

  of a flea and he needs entertainment. And she doesn't want any other girls coming in and seizing him. So she thinks, who shall I give him as a babysitter? She thought, oh, I know. I'll give him my most plain, my most boring, my most ill dressed and actually impoverished friend, Wallace. I'll give him Wallace to look after him because she's so plain and boring, he won't like her.

• 16:28Dan Snow?

  Wow.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Whoops.

• 16:30Dan Snow?

  So she wasn't super glamorous, conventionally?

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Not as glamorous as the other women around her, not as glamorous, not as well dressed, not as well connected, not as rich and not seen as witty, even though she was actually very witty. I think, I think actually she was these things, but everyone rather looked down a bit upon her because she hadn't got such a particularly glamorous marriage. So Thelma says, Wallace, look after David while I'm away. I'm back in three months. She gets back, three months, whoops. They apparently go for a lunch and Wallace does something to Edward's food, cuts it up all, and that's really the signal to Thelma that she's out. And also, she also finds that she doesn't have a direct line

• 17:14Speaker 02

  to his telephone anymore. She is ghosted and Wallace sees off Thelma. Thelma is out. And she also sees off the other lady, Frida Dudley Ward. She is out. Wallace sees them both off very fast. David is infatuated with her almost immediately.

• 17:29Dan Snow?

  Really? We could say they fell in love.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  It can't just be jokes about central heating. It must be something more. I think that's why it's often credited with the idea that she must have these secretive, amazing sexual techniques. But simply, I think he was fascinated by her. She was very irreverent to him. She refused to bow to him. She refused to defer to him. She was often actually really satirising and sometimes taking the mickie out of him. And that often got more than taking the mickie, actually sort of, you know, picking on him. And I think he found that very refreshing.

• 18:00Dan Snow?

  I bet he did. Did she want to become queen?

• 18:04Speaker 02

  This is the million dollar question. Does Wallace want to be queen? Or really was she tempted into this relationship? And you can't really say no to the prince. Was she in this relationship and it was a tiger that she was riding that was more out of control than she ever could have imagined? Because, you know, he's got form. This is not a man a lady dates thinking he's going to be a long term guy. You think, oh.

• 18:25Dan Snow?

  He's not reliable.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  You know, he's not reliable. Maybe I'll stay with him for six months, get a few nice jewels, a couple of hats, and he'll move on to another younger model. Anne Seber's very good book, That Woman, about Wallace. You know, this is what she's researched and looks into this and said, you know. It's very much the case that I think Wallace thinks, well, I'm pushing forty, you know, I'm not young anymore and I'm not beautiful and glamorous. So he's just going to have fun with me for a while. And this man with an attention span of a flea is going to find a younger model. So she'll stay in it for a while because they get entree in high society. Ernest Simpson is really quite pleased about this. Entree in high society.

• 18:58Dan Snow?

  Oh, he's happy that his wife.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Yes, he doesn't really mind at this point. Presence, he showers jewels on her. So at this point, it seems win-win. And very much Wallace, I think, doesn't realise how much he just becomes fascinated by her.

• 19:13Dan Snow?

  So they meet in nineteen thirty, they meet in thirty one.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Thirty five, thirty four. So they meet in thirty one. In nineteen thirty four, Thelma Furness makes a fatal error.

• 19:20Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  So never ask your friend to babysit your lover.

• 19:24Dan Snow?

  Your lover.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  I don't know what we're supposed, what we do really. I guess we, what do we do? Lock them up in a cage or something and say they, yes, but never ask your best friend.

• 19:30Dan Snow?

  Yeah, well, just tell them to, just tell them to top themselves up and watch Netflix till you get back.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 19:37Dan Snow?

  This is Dan Snow's History here. More after this.

• 19:47Dan Snow?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. I never thought about the history of coffee. You make it, you drink it, nothing more to it. Then I've had a TikTok video about how people in the seventeen hundreds would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it. I love that sort of discovery. A detail, but suddenly you're imagining how people lived and drank and socialised. Now I wonder what all baffle historians about us. Mugs. It's a ceramic vessel, but crucially, it has a handle. Well, that's the joy of TikTok, folks. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 20:28Dan Snow?

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• 21:12Dan Snow?

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• 21:41Speaker 01

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• 22:30Speaker 03

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• 23:09Dan Snow?

  Okay, so the timing's interesting. I see. So 1934, they get together. So they're still in that bloom, that sort of infatuation of early love, when his father dies.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  You are so right. So 1934, they get together. She thinks it's never going to last. She goes on a holiday with him to 1935. And by this point, Ernest is having enough. I mean, it's one thing going to parties with him, but going on holiday, the prince and his wife going on holiday. Ernest does not like that. And then everything is turned upside down. It is January 1936. George V dies, as we know, dispatched rather quickly by his doctor with a

• 23:41Dan Snow?

  Oh, yes, that's another story.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Small combination of cocaine and morphine is bunged in. So he dies much faster. And they get the news in the morning papers, not the infredig evening papers. And George dies and Edward is devastated. And it's fascinating because George dies, the king dies. And the minute he dies, Queen Mary, she turns and she kisses her son's hand. He is now the king. She defers to him. And Edward, he's heartbroken, the new Edward VIII. He's heartbroken. He weeps over his father, even though his father hadn't been very happy about the whole Wallace business. He'd heard about it. He told him to stop. He'd forbidden Wallace ever to come to the palace. He'd been furious when she had been in the palace and he was very angry about it.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  But now Edward is heartbroken. He plans his father's funeral. He really is playing the role of the best king in history. And of course, Wallace is married. So he's going to have to find some more suitable young lady. Perhaps Elizabeth Bowsley, who's got spare little friends that he might throw over to him. So Wallace is married. Everyone says, well, we know that the king has this friendship with Wallace. Everyone knows, the royal household know, the politician knows, the royal family know. Everyone knows that the king is obsessed with Wallace, but they think that now he's the king, she's just going to melt away.

• 24:56Dan Snow?

  It is an astonishing decision by him to try and make it official.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  And what pushes him into it is Wallace's divorce. Now Wallace feels rather bad for poor old Ernest Simpson, poor old cuckold. And so you know what she does? She asks her old school friend Mary Kirk to look after him. And what happens? He falls in love with Mary.

• 25:18Dan Snow?

  Wow, a lot of looking after.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Yes, I know, you know, extensive nineteen thirties babysitting. Yeah, so never, as we say, if your husband or spouse or your lover or your wife is going away, you tell her to stay in bed and get takeaway. Mary and Ernest fall in love and Ernest decides he's had enough of his wife with the king. And he says, we've got to get divorced. He actually goes to Edward and he says, surely you'll never marry Wallace. And Edward says, oh, I will, I will marry her. And that gentleman's agreement between two men, when Ernest realises that if he divorces Wallace, she's not going to be out on her ear as a woman abandoned by society. He agrees to the divorce. So they get divorced in October. As we know, what happens in the nineteen thirties divorce, it has to be adultery.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  And Ernest agrees to have that whole setup in which you are discovered in a hotel room. And that means it's adultery. So this is what they all have in the nineteen thirties. If you want to get divorced, you have to go to a seaside resort and get discovered in a hotel room. And that's what happens to Ernest.

• 26:16Dan Snow?

  And then the judge will say, fine.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  The judge says, fine. So the divorce, the decree nici comes in October nineteen thirty six. And now the king can marry Wallace and the government begin to panic. They think, he's going to marry her. What are we going to do? Baldwin, who's the prime minister, who was hoping for a nice quiet.

• 26:33Dan Snow?

  He's just a gentle old conservative.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  A gentle old, you know, trot into the sunset. Oh, he's thinking, no, no, not on my watch. And then the government have to deal with this. And the government, Baldwin says to him, you can't do this. And his private secretary says to him, you cannot do this. The government will resign. And you'd think Edward might say, oh, I don't want the government resigning. That will look bad. He says, no, I want to marry Wallace. I really want to marry her. I'm determined to marry her. And so we have a gigantic constitutional crisis on their hands that he wants to marry her. And the problem is, is that he is head of the Church of England and she has two husbands still living. Perhaps if they'd been dead, it might have been a different matter, but she is twice divorced. She cannot marry a divorcee and therefore.

• 27:19Dan Snow?

  And is the fact that she's an American an issue or?

• 27:21Speaker 02

  It is an issue because there is anti-Americanism coming at this point. So she's not popular. She's an American. People think she's too old. There are all kinds of reasons why she's disliked. But the actual constitutional crisis is that she has been twice divorced. Had she not been divorced, it would have been a very different matter.

• 27:37Dan Snow?

  Isn't that interesting? So it's the fact that she's twice divorced. That's against Church of England doctrine.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Yes, you can't marry a divorcee in the Church of England. Divorces were not welcome at court and they weren't welcome at all in society. And therefore Wallace had been very radical in what she'd done. But this is absolutely impossible. He's told you can't marry her and he won't listen.

• 27:56Dan Snow?

  So this is almost on a scale a generation or two ago of a monarch saying that they were gay.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Yes, this is a huge moment. And you see things moving very far. So the divorce of Wallace and Ernest comes in October and everyone knows, the press know. They've seen them on holiday together. The European press has talked about the King's friendship, but not the British press. And they've kept it out of the stories. And in fact, the private secretary says, oh, the press has been silent. And I think that's two reasons. Number one, there's been pressure on them to keep silent. But also, I think, I wonder whether it's been shooting the messenger, whether they think that if they print this big story that the King is dating a divorced woman, that the papers will be in loads of trouble. That this continued silence can't be relied on. So the government are arguing, Edward's saying, no, he's saying, absolutely, I won't.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  And then there's actually a sermon, a bishop gives a sermon, saying that he hopes Edward will be a better king. He'll work harder. Now, I think that poor bishop doesn't know anything. He's just talking about work. But this is really seen by the press as, here we go, it's been talked about. And in it goes into the press and therefore Baldwin has to do something about it. And

• 29:10Dan Snow?

  Suddenly the people are made aware.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Everyone knows about it.

• 29:13Dan Snow?

  Wow.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  So Baldwin has to do something about it. And Churchill, as we can imagine, Winston Churchill is putting his awe in, he's getting his nose in, he doesn't like Baldwin, he's trying to bring him down, and he sees an opportunity here. And he's very fond of Edward the Eighth. And he says, let's come up with a solution. Come up the solution is that Edward will marry Wallace, but it'll be a morganatic marriage. So that's a marriage by which she's a wife, but not a queen. She's not going to be queen consort, she's just going to be a morganatic marriage.

• 29:39Dan Snow?

  It's a bit like Franz Ferdinand.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  This is the plan, yes. Yes, this is the plan. It's happened a lot in Europe. So the idea is that this is what's going to happen. After the Statute of Westminster in 1931, he's got to go to the Dominions. He says, okay, I'll go and see what the Dominions think, because they're the empire, but they're running the show. And unfortunately, the Dominions all say no. South Africa, Australia, they say no, no, no, no, no morganatic marriage. New Zealand says, oh, maybe. And Ireland says, we don't want to possibly be the empire anyway. So essentially, it's a no. And what can then Baldwin do? And he says, we're going to resign. And actually, he speaks to his liberal and Labour counterparts and says, if I resign, would you not form a government? They say, no, we don't want to form a government. We agree, this is all terrible. But whatever they try, Edward will not be shifted. He doesn't want a morganatic marriage. He says

• 30:24Speaker 02

  he wants her to be Empress of India and the whole bag of tricks. I mean, that's right, that the empire is a bag of tricks. And so he's determined to abdicate. And she begs him not to. Wallace says, please don't. She's fled to France when the news broke. She's been, please don't, please don't, because she knows she'll be so attacked. And maybe she never really loved him that much. She just thought it was an affair that would last. She's not obsessed with him. And perhaps that's why he's so obsessed with her, because she was always a bit at one reserve.

• 30:53Dan Snow?

  You hear stories about Romanoffs weeping when they realise their next in line to the throne. Do you think there's a part of him that did not want to be king emperor? Do you think part of him thought, A, I'm in love with this woman, B, actually, this is my way out?

• 31:03Speaker 02

  I think that's a really good point. I think he did see it as his way out. He was vitally stuck on marrying Wallace. And she begged him not to. And she tried to give him up. And he wouldn't have any of it. She's actually, by this point, writing to Ernest Simpson, saying she's still very fond of him. She still loves him, even though he's married to her school friend by now, swings and roundabouts. And Edward, he has this vision. Of what, if he abdicates, then he can push away with all this boring ribbon cutting and all the boring jobs of being king. He can marry Wallace and he can be that glamorous Prince of Wales again. So he has his vision of what he will be abdicating. And essentially, you're right. I think he just thinks, I don't want to do this job. I'm young and fun and

• 31:46Speaker 02

  glamorous. I don't want to be like my boring old father and do this job for the rest of my life, ribbon cutting and shaking hands with the Prime Minister. I want to do something fun. And Wallace is a way out.

• 31:56Dan Snow?

  Right. And so he extraordinarily abdicates the throne. His little brother takes over, who he thinks is a bit more boring and likely to want to cut ribbons and do all that kind of thing. What does he do next? Does he get to live that life that he'd so hoped for?

• 32:11Speaker 02

  No, he does not. He is not going to be allowed to stay in the country. The King, George VI, and Queen Mary are allied on that. He's not going to be allowed to stay in the country. He has to go.

• 32:21Dan Snow?

  Does that come as a shock to him?

• 32:22Speaker 02

  It does come as a shock to him.

• 32:23Dan Snow?

  Does he go, hang on, my little brother's treating me, what's going on?

• 32:25Speaker 02

  He, he thought his little brother was very under his thumb. Everyone always underestimated George VI. He thought he was a very lacking in intelligence young man and he could just tell him what to do. And therefore, it's a big shock to him when he is told out. And the government agree. The government want him out as well. He goes to Austria and there he spends the whole time, Andrew Lowney wrote about this very well in his very good book Traitor Queen, and he said, spends the whole time on the phone saying, how much money can I have? I want money. Give me more money. And he's basically sort of blackmailing the royal family. He also ran off with bits and pieces of jewellery when he left. He ran off with the Prince of Wales coronet. So he runs off with the Prince of Wales, his crown that he was crowned within 1911. He runs off with that. So when Prince Charles gets invested

• 33:10Speaker 02

  as Prince of Wales in 1969 in Carnarvon Castle, they haven't got a crown. They have to make a makeshift one and put ping pong balls, put gold on top because they haven't got one, because Edward ran off with it, so they don't want to ask it back. So he's in Austria. He can't be with Wallace. She's in France. Her divorce is not fully through yet. So he's in Austria complaining, ringing up, saying, I want more money. And then finally, her divorce goes through in May 1937 and they marry in France. On June the third.

• 33:36Dan Snow?

  I think that's quick work.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  It's quick work. He marries her super quickly and now he's a newlywed. And now he's out on his ear. What is he going to do? He wants to be Prince of Wales and he's out on his ear. But of course, there's a regime in Europe who really want to see him and see that use could be made of him. And that's the Nazis.

• 33:58Dan Snow?

  This is Dan Snow's History. There's more on this topic coming up.

• 34:09Speaker 01

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• 34:52Speaker 01

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• 34:58Speaker 05

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• 35:37Dan Snow?

  This has been written about ever since it happened. What is your judgment? What do you think? Do you think that actually he was seen by Adolf Hitler as quite a useful figure, like a puppet, like the Jacobites? You know, if we invade Britain or if we come to deal with them, we stick our man back on the throne. And do you think he was willing, a participant in that sort of however loose conspiracy it was?

• 35:56Speaker 02

  So this is the question about Edward. Does he know what Hitler's plans are for him? Hitler's plans are when he invades, he'll put Edward on the throne, he'll be a puppet king. Does he know that? And does he support Hitler in that? And there are so many different questions about this. But I think it's very clear that certainly in the 1930s, in 1937, October 1937, when he and Wallace go to Germany and they meet Goebbels and they meet Göring and then he meets up with Hitler, has a private meeting with Hitler, that he loves the accolades. He loves what he gets in Germany. They treat him like a king. They treat Wallace like a queen. And that is very important to him. And that's what he wants. He wants her. She can't be HRH. She hasn't been allowed to have that. She's treated as a queen, as HRH. It's all marvelous.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  And so he has this private meeting with Hitler. And we don't know what's said there. We don't know what they discuss. But there's a photo opportunity. They go all around Nazi Germany. And of course, by this point, Jews have been excluded from professions. There are restrictions. The idea of the antisemitism, it's become a policy. You know it's happening. And then only going to be a year later when there's Kristallnacht and all the Jewish businesses are vandalized. So it is there. Everyone knows about it. And yet on he carries on. Now Edward himself says later, he says, "I was taken in by Hitler. He took me in because I believed he was the only ballast against communism." That's what he says. But certainly, he loves the accolade that Hitler gives him. And when the Nazis invade France, Edward and Wallace flee.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  They head down first to Spain, then they head to Portugal. And this is the question. Is he involved? Is he giving information to German spies? They stay with a banker who actually is a German asset. And is he passing on information? And there are these many files that are found in 1945, in which there's all about Hitler's plans and the Germans' plans, in which, you know, it suggests that maybe he could encourage... Britain to a peace and the idea of doing this would be mass bombing of Britain and then they'll come to a peace with Germany. How much the Duke knew about it or not. Andrew Lowney says he does. Many other biographers say he doesn't really know about it. It's a question I think we'll never know. But it's interesting, isn't it, Anne? Because this is a different story, but Anthony Blunt, who's later unmasked as the spy, who gave

• 38:08Speaker 02

  away so many secrets in World War Two, he goes over on a secret mission after World War Two for the royal family, accompanied by the royal librarian, to get documents. And they say they're all about Princess Vicky, Victoria's daughter. I mean, I don't know why they would be her letters. And a few crowns. But I think what he's really going to try and find are those files about the Duke of Windsor. That's what he's really supposed to be looking for. And obviously, many of them he doesn't find. And they are found and exposed and found by American officers.

• 38:36Dan Snow?

  So the Brits send a special expedition to the ruins of Berlin to comb through them and try and find these files?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  And then, yes, what they want.

• 38:42Dan Snow?

  Because they want to protect their reputation of Queen Victoria's oldest daughter.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right. Princess, come on. Yes, Princess Vicky and Victoria might have said a few.

• 38:51Dan Snow?

  Kaiser Wilhelm's mum.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, they might have said something. So their extensive correspondent, that's what this secret mission is for. They want to go to all these castles and get hold of them before the Americans do. They also bring back a few bits and pieces of treasure, I think that they want to make sure that aren't taken. But that's what I think they're really looking for, is Duke of Windsor letters. Because is he actually giving information to the Nazis?

• 39:14Dan Snow?

  There's lots of stories around about Wallace, some of them very malicious. Do you think she was a Nazi sympathizer? Do you think she was, in fact, people say she was romantically engaged with senior Nazis?

• 39:22Speaker 02

  That is the question that most kind of condemns her reputation. Was she involved with Nazis? Was she part of the Nazi groupings? And there was talk that she was a lover, a ribbon drop, and he sent her flowers. Now.

• 39:36Dan Snow?

  Hitler's Foreign Minister.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Hitler's Foreign Minister. And so that she was a Nazi spy as well. Now, was this the truth? Now, Anne Seber, she really argues it is not the truth. There's no evidence for this whatsoever. There's really no evidence for this, as there are many rumours about her. But certainly, there is absolutely no doubt that when she and Edward went to Nazi Germany, they appreciated the welcome they got. And if they went back when there had been even more severe and horrific restrictions on Jews, would they have been condemnatory? I think we could possibly say that they would not.

• 40:08Dan Snow?

  Well, what we can say about that is that they were not alone in the British elite.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  No.

• 40:12Dan Snow?

  Widesways, the British Conservative elite in particular, were quite, you know.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  And that footage came out a couple of years ago, didn't it, of even before Edward abdicated, there he is doing a Nazi salute and encouraging the Queen Mother and the princesses to do as well. Of course, you know, Elizabeth and Margaret were children, they didn't understand. But there he is already seeing Nazism as, as he later said, he thought it was some kind of liberation from Communism, this total disaster. So I think Wallace probably wasn't a Nazi spy or a Nazi agent, but if the Nazis had invaded, I really can't see her and Edward saying absolutely not to be put on the throne.

• 40:50Dan Snow?

  So after going to Spain and Portugal, he was then sent by the British, very deliberately, to the Bahamas.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  That's it. They can't cope with all the chaos he's causing. Off he goes to the Bahamas.

• 40:59Dan Snow?

  To be governor of the Bahamas.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Complaining all the way. They complain, he said, it's too hot and the government say, I'm sorry, people are being bombed, people are suffering, you can stop complaining about being in the Bahamas and it being too hot. Now, Wallace actually does do war work with the Red Cross and she does actually do work for infant mortality, but she does use racial slurs in her letters. I mean, I'm sure he does as well. So literally, they are in Bahamas, playing the life of the wealthy elite, and all the government wants is them to be out of the way. And they are sitting there complaining about their suffering during World War Two, when the whole world is on fire.

• 41:36Dan Snow?

  What happens after the war? Does this energy, this difficult energy with the Royal Family continue after 1945?

• 41:40Speaker 02

  After the war, they go back to France and they live in exile in France. And there is no connection with the Royal Family. When Elizabeth II comes to the throne, she is crowned in 1953, and Edward is not invited to the coronation. He's not invited and he sits and watches it in Paris with a hostess. She gives him a special gold chair to sit and watch the coronation on TV. Because that's the only gold chair he's ever going to get. So he has no relationship with the royal family whatsoever. But in 1965, he comes over for an eye operation in London, and then he does meet the Queen, he does meet Elizabeth II, and they do invite him to a family occasion. So we do see a sort of thawing of relations between Edward and the royal

• 42:25Speaker 02

  family. But that is after the king's death and the Queen Mother, when she sees Wallace again at this occasion, because the Queen Mother and Wallace were at daggers drawn. They hated each other. And Wallace apparently called the Queen Mother Cookie because she said that she was always lucky to eat lots of food. So they hate each other. So that was not a good friendship. But I think Elizabeth II tries to create a relationship. And then not long after, in 1972, the Duke dies, and then the Prince of Wales coronet comes back to the crown jewels.

• 42:55Dan Snow?

  And Wallace Simpson, usefully for the British firm, the monarchy, does not have any children.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  You're exactly right. She does not have any children.

• 43:02Dan Snow?

  So there's no pretenders.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Well, that would be the constitutional question. If they had a child, that child would always be there, popping up, popping up, and could be a possible pretender.

• 43:13Dan Snow?

  A king over the water.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Even though he abdicates, his son would still be theoretically superior to Elizabeth II.

• 43:20Dan Snow?

  Look at James VII and II.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  It's very true.

• 43:22Dan Snow?

  He abdicated.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  He abdicated. And then you're exactly right. And then it still has the royal lineage. And it's so interesting, isn't it? Because you know what we're saying? That does he see Wallace as a way out of being into a king? Does he think about that? He's thinking, she's probably not going to have a child. There was some talk that an early procedure rendered her infertile. You know, we don't know the truth of that or not. But certainly, she didn't have a child with either of her husbands. And she was, by the time that she was with Edward, she was well unto the way of 40, which was seen as too old for having children. So maybe that was something else that was appealing, that she wasn't going to have the heir, so he could completely abdicate himself from royal life.

• 44:02Dan Snow?

  This used to be the greatest royal scandal of recent history. And now it's been superseded by another one. But that's another for a different podcast, that different later historians can look at that one. Kate Williams, thank you very much for coming on the show.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 44:16Dan Snow?

  Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Dan Snow's History Hit. You know, you could have watched this episode and others on YouTube. That's right. You can peek behind the curtain of how we record this podcast on our YouTube channel. Very exciting new development here. Just click the link in the show notes and head over to subscribe. New YouTube releases every Friday, friends. Don't miss out.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  This is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The coolest flex at brunch these days is not the Bloody Mary with the bottomless gold flake caviar topping. It's not whipping out your wallet to pay. It's not having a wallet at all. Jack's been an Apple Card user since 2019. That's the same year he tossed his wallet in the trash. Because Apple Card holders earn 2% daily cash back on purchases made using Apple Pay. It's the only credit card designed for the iPhone. I tap to pay with Apple Card at the grocery store, at the gas station, at restaurants. And yes, I use it at my second home, the farmer's market. Jack tapping to pay with his Apple Card with Apple Pay is his favorite thing to do. And the pleasant vibration and chime sound? Means I just got 2% daily cash back on my latest purchase. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval.

• 45:29Speaker 01

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• 45:37Dan Snow?

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