SC EP:1270 The Sasquatch/Human Hybrid

Tonight we will be speaking Norman Sollie. Norman is the author of Before Patty Volume I: Patrick-The Sasquatch/Human Hybrid & Our Genetic Inheritance. He shared with me a Sasquatch/Human Hybrid case he spent years investigating. He shared that he starting writing because of his own experiences. Here is the description: In 1891, a young woman was taken from a fishing camp in Eastern Washington by a Skanicum, as her people knew the Sasquatch. She eventually escaped from her ordeal, but she returned to her family with a terrible secret. Before Patty, Volume 1, is the story of the life of that woman, and of her hybrid son, Patrick, uncovered after months of research into more than 160 forgotten documents dating from as early as the 1890s and spanning 100 years. Tragic, startling, and surprising, this is the story of what many thought impossible, forever altering our idea of what it is to be human and leading us to consider that Sasquatch may be a fierce and free human tribe. This is also a story of the hardships Native Americans, First Nations, and Alaska Natives have endured since Europeans first landed on the shores, devastating hundreds of once thriving cultures. As Colville Indian Agent, George H. Newman, wrote in 1897, "I am astonished at the progress they have made, while at the same time I wonder how they have managed to live." Check out his book, Before Patty Volume I: Patrick-The Sasquatch/Human Hybrid https://beforepatty.com/books/before-patty-volume-i-patrick-the-sasquatchhuman-hybrid--our-genetic-inheritance-norman-anton-sollie/B0GX465Q8Y

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  It looked like somebody was bent over and had their head in the window of the deer blind and it either heard me or smelt me and he pulled his head out of the tent and stood straight up and that, that shocked me. They don't make people that, that big.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  The way it moved, almost as if it was gliding across the beach. I've never seen anything move like that in my life.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  They were screaming at each other in gibberish.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  It sounded like a language and they were chuntering away, back and forwards, back and forwards, back and forwards.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  I know what a bear looks like and there is no way on this planet that what I saw bears.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  911, what are you reporting?

• 1:16Speaker 03

  Jesus Christ, you better... Karen, see ya!

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Hello?

• 1:20Speaker 03

  Get somebody out here.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  What's going on now, sir?

• 1:23Speaker 03

  That son of a bitch is about six foot nine, I don't know.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Do you see him now, sir?

• 1:27Speaker 03

  Yes, I'm looking right at him. Uh-uh.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  Hi, this is Carol King from Music City and you're listening to my favorite podcast, Sasquatch Chronicles.

• 2:15Wes Germer?

  Welcome to the show, everyone. Thanks for being here tonight. We're going to be speaking with Norm Soley, and he wrote this book, Before Patty, Volume One, Patrick, the Sasquatch Human Hybrid, and Our Genetic Inheritance. If you go to beforepatty.com, you can actually get a copy of the book. The story goes back to the 1800s, and it has to do with a woman that was kidnapped and later birthed a child. I'll kind of let Norm go into it. If you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email. My email address

• 2:53Wes Germer?

  is [email protected]. And if you get a chance, check out sasquatchchronicles.com. You can become a member and get additional shows. And I'll see the members back on Wednesday for a live show. Look for it under the episode section on the website. But tonight, let's jump into it. I want to welcome Norm to the show. Norm, thanks for coming on.

• 3:23Speaker 05

  Well, thank you, Wes. I'm really excited to be here.

• 3:26Wes Germer?

  Yeah, I'm excited to have you on, Norm. And you know, as you and I were talking yesterday, I was really fascinated with this whole account. And I can't wait to actually read the book. But if you would, kind of give us a background on this Patrick, and tell us more about the book.

• 3:43Speaker 05

  All right. For me, the story starts where I found out about Patrick. And somewhat ironically, you were there. I don't know if that's come across, but I went to the 2019 International Bigfoot Conference in Kennewick, Washington. And you had a booth there. But one of the speakers, and I met you briefly, one of the speakers was Dr. Igor Berzov from Russia. He was putting the international into the International Bigfoot Conference. And he had a very interesting talk in which Russell acted as a, some sort of a translator is kind of amusing, really, because he was speaking in English. It's just hard to understand

• 4:28Speaker 05

  him. But he mentioned that he had a book. And I thought, well, cool, I got to check out this book. And when Igor finished his talk,

• 4:40Speaker 05

  They went immediately into a break and I made a beeline for Igor's table. I get to his table and there's six or eight people there already and I kind of slip in and I get up to the front and I pick up one of the books and it was, it was remarkable, just filled with illustrations, color, black and white. One column is in Russian, the next column on the same page is in English and seemed like a lot of it was Dr. Britsev's translation. It was a little bit rough, but I thought, cool. I want this book. So I asked the young man there, who I think was just one of the conference guys watching the table. I asked him how much for the book?

• 5:22Speaker 05

  And he looks a little worried and says, I don't even know. I was just watching the table. But just then Igor walks up and the young man says, this gentleman's thinking about buying the book and wants to know how much it is. And Igor says loud enough for everybody there to hear, three hundred dollar. And one woman says, oh, I can't pay that much for a book. And she just stomps off. And you can hear people are very dismayed. They don't like it. And Dr. Igor leans close to me and he says, too much for you, two hundred dollar. And I pulled out my wallet and I gave him two hundred in cash.

• 6:04Speaker 05

  It took me until 2022 to really start reading that book. In that book Igor had included a paper by Dr. Bayanov, also of the Russian Institute of, I think it's called the International Institute of Homeology. Uh, in that paper from 2005, Dr. Bayanov mentions a paper by Dr. Ed Fusch of the United States.

• 6:36Speaker 05

  And he talks about how Dr. Fusch had been doing some work in eastern Washington, your own state, and had to interview members of the Colville and Spokane tribes. And then he also mentioned that in that paper, there was a story of a hybrid Sasquatch human child born late, as it turns out, in the 1800s. And he, he kind of leaves off that section saying, I wish that somebody would put as much attention into this story as Dr. Berth said put into the Zana story. The supposedly Sasquatch type being that was captive in Russia

• 7:19Speaker 05

  at one point and bore some, some hybrid children herself, supposedly. So I, I thought, well, I gotta give a shot at finding this paper. That sounds pretty interesting. And it's online. It's, it's right there for any of us to find. Uh, it's, it's actually easily available. Uh, I think if any of the listeners Google Ed Fusch, F U S C H, F U S C H. I think it will pop up, um, add the word Colville in there, C O L V I L L E. It should pop right up.

• 8:03Speaker 05

  I read through this paper and I found the section that talks about Patrick, the Sasquatch human hybrid. And it had some facts in it. And I thought, well, that's interesting. There's some information to go on here. One could actually maybe track this down. I had a friend at that time, um, still have her, Heather Moser of Small Town Monsters. She's one of their producers. I knew she was into genealogy, so I just basically typed up all the facts and I tangled them in front of her and she took the bait. Uh, she immediately started researching and about 48 hours later, she got back to me saying or writing that she thinks that she found him.

• 8:50Speaker 05

  But that some things were a bit different, but that she had found enough overlap that she's pretty sure she found this Patrick. And by the way, I did not make up the name Patrick West. Patrick was the guy's name. And how perfect is that? Patrick was really his name. I do not reveal his last name in the book or in conversations, because I am dreading the possibility of my book causing living relatives to get harassed in any way. So I keep the last name secret, but I don't believe I was necessarily the first to track down

• 9:35Speaker 05

  this guy. The information's been out there for any of us to find. I think other people probably have. I just may be the first that has published this much about Patrick. So that's the story of how I found out about Patrick. What I got in the end were more than 160 historical documents. And these are things like a land patent signed by President Woodrow Wilson from, I think it was 22-ish. And I suspect that was actually signed by him, rather than being a robo-signature. I think it was really signed by him. I found

• 10:18Speaker 05

  two draft cards, World War I and World War II. This poor Patrick had to get involved with the draft for both of those. I found a delayed birth certificate. I found death certificate. I found newspaper articles. I found announcements of his, the birth of his children. I've tracked down eight children of Patrick. All but two of them died before Patrick died, but some of those children had children of their own. And some of those children went on to have children. I found so much evidence of Patrick in two years

• 11:00Speaker 05

  of research, that I am convinced about this story. I don't expect anybody to be convinced by my word, or even by the book. But it might give people something to think about. And the research I did is not beyond anybody. I just had a subscription to a genealogy service. That's all it took for me to find all these documents. It's, it's very easy to replicate. Towards the end of my research, I was running out of things I could find. And I really wanted a picture. But I, I gave kind of one last stab at it.

• 11:43Speaker 05

  And what I did was use Patrick's grandfather's name, which I think was actually an Indian name, but it was maybe transcribed funny. It only differs from Patrick's last name by one letter, but I hadn't been using it in my search. I did one last attempt with that slightly altered last name, and I got a picture, uh, which was quite the moment. And regrettably, it's a mugshot. It's a facial profile and it's a side profile. It's actually two pictures. And everybody, when they hear about that, you know, they get excited. I was excited.

• 12:27Speaker 05

  Um, they expect him to be very hairy and have some very obvious feature differences. But he looks odd, but he's not, he's not what I anyhow was thinking I would see in a hybrid. Uh, he's got a, a very sloping forehead. That's one of the odd things about it. He's also, doesn't seem to have a chin. The side profile is hard to see. It's, it's a poor reproduction, but the chin, in this case, that's technically what's called the mentum, which is a bony growth projection on the lower jaw, the front lower jar jaw.

• 13:12Speaker 05

  That's what's, what creates the chin as we think of it. Neanderthals even didn't have chins until the very end. And that might've actually been a sign of admixture with modern humans. But Neanderthals and presumably other, other hominins did not have chins. So it's funny that Patrick does not appear to have a chin himself. His ears, there's two really odd things about his ears. The tops of his ears are below the plane formed by our two irises. Uh, that horizontal plane, they're entirely below that plane. If you look in the mirror, you'll find that your ears extend beyond that plane.

• 13:55Speaker 05

  He has what are called low-set ears, which do happen in some genetic conditions. Uh, but Patrick lived a very long, full life. So I doubt if he had that type of genetic condition. His ears are also like his forehead. They're rotated back and, and down. Uh, they're also really oddly close to the corners of his mouth compared to a standard, modern human. So that's peculiar too. Another thing that shows in the pictures is he seems to have a very short neck. And that's called the compressed, compressed cervical vertebrae. It was typical of Neanderthals.

• 14:39Speaker 05

  And I'm not saying with his chin and compressed cervical vertebrae talk that he was, uh, that his father was a Neanderthal, but it's interesting. It's probable, I would think that other of the ancient hominins had that compressed cervical vertebrae too. I'm just pointing out things that are odd about Patrick. But he did have a normal hair growth pattern on his head. But you can also see in the side profile. His skull, although it isn't extending upwards, it's extending backwards more than is the norm. He's got actually kind of an overhang of his skull.

• 15:22Speaker 05

  Whereas for you and I, most likely, uh, if you look at that, that back profile of the skull, it pretty much goes straight down into the neck and the shoulders, but Patrick it doesn't, it creates a little overhang there. So that's also different. Um, that's, that's what I see when I look at Patrick's picture. He actually lived, uh, for an American Indian of that time. He had a pretty full life. He lived to the age of 70. But it was definitely a checkered life. He, um, he left. A lot of records that are rest, uh, records, which is sad. And some of his kids too, had those kind of records.

• 16:06Speaker 05

  So he, um, he started out life very promising. He was known locally on the Caldwell Reservation where he spent the first half of his life. As an accomplished rancher and grain farmer, he had almost a hundred and four acres of land. He probably had horses, he probably had a few cows. He did very well up until a point, but then as in his late thirties, things started going south for him. And I think eventually he literally lost the farm. And he lost his wife essentially. I think they probably saw each other occasionally through the last couple of decades of his life.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  But she moved out to Seattle. He moved to various places in Washington State. Uh, that you can, I actually have a map in the book of places he lived in Washington State. On page three twenty-two. He ended up in a, uh, what's a tuberculosis sanitarium? Which doesn't mean he was insane. It was just a place that people with tuberculosis go for their recovery. He ended up there and that was just north of a hundred forty-fifth in Seattle. Technically outside of the Seattle city limits, but I believe it had a Seattle address. And even though he was there for tuberculosis, he died of, of heart disease.

• 17:35Speaker 05

  Um, in August of nineteen sixty-two, August fifth of nineteen sixty-two, which, um, this is one of the stranger coincidences in my life, but that was the day that I entered Seattle as an immigrant. Uh, the same day that I got into Seattle, he left Seattle. At least in the physical state. So that's, that's my short story of Patrick.

• 18:06Wes Germer?

  So you find this guy, what's kind of the backstory? How did he become a hybrid? What's the story with his mother?

• 18:13Speaker 05

  You know, the only, the most solid information we have on that, it's actually not the only, but the most solid information is what is in Ed Fusch's paper. And what that says and what I have attempt to portray in the book is that his mother, Madeline, otherwise Taisiat Kalakun, tribal identity unknown, but presumably one of the 12 tribes. She was newly married as well, the bride purchase, which means literally somebody paid some sort of money or goods to get her as a bride.

• 18:57Speaker 05

  At that time, I think some tribes had a population problem with illness, et cetera. So this is how she was newly married. She was described as tiny. She was at a fish camp on, if I'm pronouncing it correctly, the San Poil River on the reservation. They were out there harvesting seasonal fish stocks. It was actually kind of early, I suspect, for salmon, but there was trout, yields, sturgeon. There was a few different types of fish they would harvest all summer long. And there was an abduction. And the abduction was actually witnessed, according to what's in Ed's paper,

• 19:41Speaker 05

  which that comes from people who were either part of the family or close to the family. But the story's already, I think, 85 years old at that point. She was abducted, as the story went, even though somebody there had a rifle, he did not fire on the Sasquatch. As they say, "Scannicum", there was a firm belief that for every Sasquatch hurt, 12 human beings would be hurt in such a case that they were very vengeful. I don't know if that's true or not, but that, that was how the story came down. So she was carried off with witnesses seeing her being carried off. And after a time,

• 20:25Speaker 05

  Spent up in the mountains, she was actually digging, I think it was Indian potatoes for this male Sasquatch, and I'm guessing he was probably a young male who wasn't very good at the arts of romance and decided he would just steal a modern human woman. As the story went, he was sleeping in the bushes while she was digging up these potatoes for the, for winter storage, which is, you know, that's an interesting tidbit about Sasquatch right there. And she actually saw Indian men on horseback through the woods. And she took the opportunity. She dropped her stick and she ran.

• 21:08Speaker 05

  And as the story went, she jumped onto one of the horsebacks and they took off down to the temporary camp, they were part of the temporary camp, probably berry picking, I don't actually know. And when they got to that temporary camp, everybody was so alarmed that this woman had escaped because they figured that the abductor was going to be coming after her, that they immediately broke camp and headed for the valley bottom and town. And that's how she got away. At that point, it's a little bit of speculation on my part,

• 21:50Speaker 05

  but I believe she was pregnant, but maybe not even aware yet. I suspect she'd only been abducted for a couple of months. And this was in the course of one summer. I suspect, I don't actually know. But there's a lot of evidence that they tried to hide his date of birth. Patrick generally gave like seven different birth dates over the course of his life. And the one that sticks the most is just September of 1993, I think it is. No, I got that wrong, 92. I believe she was abducted in 1891.

• 22:32Speaker 05

  I believe he was actually born approximately in June of 1992.

• 22:38Wes Germer?

  You say 1992, do you mean 1892?

• 22:42Speaker 05

  I'm sorry. Yes, of 1892.

• 22:47Speaker 05

  But I think they said September to make it seem like he was born far enough after the abduction that he was actually the product of her husband. Pierre Paul, poor guy, who actually raised this child as his own.

• 23:07Speaker 05

  Which was pretty amazing. He he stuck around for Patrick longer than any other adult. He lived the longest.

• 23:15Wes Germer?

  Can I ask you, Norm, when you look at the case of Zana, and for people in the Bigfoot world, they probably already know what I'm talking about. If you don't know, Zana was captured in the 1860s, 1870s, that timeframe. In the disputed territory of the Caucasus in Russia. And she was found living in the forest. Witnesses describe her as tall, extremely strong. She had dark skin. And she was unable to speak Russian or really any language. In the area of Russia of the Caucasus. There's many eyewitnesses who've come across the Almesty, which is Russia's Bigfoot.

• 24:00Wes Germer?

  But when you look at Zana's case and you even look at her son. Which I'll give you. There's no picture of Zana, but there's pictures of her son. And he does have an odd appearance. He almost has like a Neanderthal head. His ears are odd, his nose is odd, his jaw is odd. Everything about his appearance is odd. I mean, I don't think women are like falling over themselves to ask this guy out. Have you seen the picture of her son?

• 24:32Speaker 05

  Actually, there's a picture of him and another of his siblings or half siblings in the book. And his name was Kiwit, the one you're talking about.

• 24:42Wes Germer?

  Yeah, so you know what I'm talking about, Norm. I mean, her son was big. He was a very, very large man. And when you read the story of Zana, it's almost tragic, the way they treated her. But you know, Zana turned out to be a human, a modern human from Africa. So when you look at the story of Patrick, what convinces you that he was a human hybrid?

• 25:07Speaker 05

  Well, for one thing, going back to Zana, I don't think we've got the whole story there. I suspect Zana maybe herself was a hybrid. And when you do these DNA tests, as you know, in North America, they come back all the time as human. What I think's actually often going on is we're dealing with a very hybridized population. And of course, it's going to come back as human, because they do have human DNA. And I think Kiwit was maybe, if I take a shortcut,

• 25:48Speaker 05

  we could say he was maybe one quarter or something non-human. But he, as you pointed out, he has very, what they call robust features. He's got the very strong jaw. He's got the protruding brow. He's got high cheekbones. He's got a very sturdy structure on him that isn't unknown in modern humans, but it's not exactly common. So I don't think we've heard the last, and I've actually been in communication with Dr. Berthsev, and there was a paper that came out, and he was actually

• 26:28Speaker 05

  one of the authors of that paper, that actually talked about that human DNA. But he told me that they're working on a follow-up paper, and that it might have some more to say about the Zana bloodline. As far as Patrick, the reason I'm convinced is

• 26:47Speaker 05

  The reasons, he has very odd features. He's got a story, a family story that has persisted for eighty-five years. That matches up with what you can find in the records. He had a child that was still living when N. Fush was doing his work. And as it turned out, she was living only ten miles away from where Ed Fush lived. And I think he kept a promise to not blow her cover. But I can't imagine living ten miles away that he didn't talk to her. And he still published this paper.

• 27:30Speaker 05

  I think he got to talk to a quarter, we could call it a Sasquatch or Scannicum. So based on those things, I am pretty convinced.

• 27:44Wes Germer?

  Yeah, but going back to Zana for a moment. Uh, there was a DNA study done in twenty twenty-one. And they sequenced the genomes of Zana and her son, Kuwait. And what they found was Zana wasn't an unknown hominid or relic Neanderthal. Her genetic makeup was one hundred percent African origin. She was one hundred percent modern human of Sub-Saharan African descent. There was nothing hybrid about her. And when you read the story of Zana, while it's tragic, I, I almost wonder sometimes if it's over exaggerated

• 28:28Wes Germer?

  with her strength and how it took like five guys to hold her down and tie her up and on and on and on. I almost wonder if they told those stories because of what they did to this poor woman. It was better to explain it away as well, you know, she might've been a all mystique. She might've been, you know, some sort of animal that way we can treat her this way. And we don't seem like such monsters, even though they were. But they even used her son's DNA. And, and again, I'll give you, her son is odd looking. He's very odd looking. But there was nothing hybrid about Zana. She was a modern human. Have you read that DNA study?

• 29:11Speaker 05

  I have, and I bet I have it in my files right here, but I regret, I'm not certain if that was just mitochondrial DNA from the mother's side that they looked at, or if it was also the nuclear DNA. What I would say about Zana and about African populations in general, they already know there's what they call a ghost progenitor in modern African DNA. You know, like many of us, like myself, I suspect I have both Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in me right now. The African populations, they have something else that they have never

• 29:56Speaker 05

  found fossil evidence of with an ability to run that DNA, but they can tell there is a third something in Africans, and they call it the ghost progenitor. And I suspect that that ghost progenitor has left a mark in Africa, but also, I'm not sure it's extinct. We have sightings of funny things all over the world, and they have often very different characteristics. I suspect we're not dealing with just Sasquatch, but we may be dealing

• 30:37Speaker 05

  with a half dozen large species, a half dozen four-foot and under species. I think there's still a lot out there we haven't caught up to. I'm not an expert on Zana, but what I suspect is, is that she herself was the product of hybridizations. And that doesn't necessarily mean 50/50. Maybe she was a quarter something and three-quarter something else. But if we look at her descriptions, isn't she described as like six foot four? She has reddish brown hair all over her body?

• 31:15Speaker 05

  She could run as fast as a horse. She doesn't sound like, like maybe somebody who's mentally challenged. She sounds like she's different in a way that we can't really explain through just saying she's from Sub-Saharan Africa. I think a lot of her people probably were from Sub-Saharan Africa, but that area of the Caucasus, that has plenty of sightings and reports to this day. Some just fascinating information comes out of that area.

• 31:54Speaker 05

  But what it sounds like there is, it may not be Sasquatch, it may be more like remnant Neanderthals going on. I don't, there's just a lot. It's very hard to unpack all of this.

• 32:07Wes Germer?

  Yeah, it is. I think Zana, according to reports, she was 6'6". So she was a tall woman and there is reports of her covered in hair. For me, it's easier to believe that maybe she had hypertrichosis as opposed to her being some weird hybrid. You know, the, the running as fast as a horse, you know, the, the claims of, oh, she could run as fast as a horse. Yeah, that sounds like fish stories to me. You know, a fish story, the farther you get away from it, the bigger it becomes. And when I hear that, I think, going back to what I said earlier, I, I think it's tragic, the way she was treated.

• 32:49Wes Germer?

  I think she was human, but even if she was a hybrid, it makes me feel bad for the way that she was actually treated. And I know Igor kind of pushes the whole Zana hybrid thing. It's almost like he wants her to be a hybrid. But for me, I, I just don't see it. You know, I see more of a tragic case than something fascinating to, to read about. It's like saying Andre the Giant is an Nephilim. You know, he was 7'4". His hands are twice as big as mine. He could probably crush my skull back in his day. But that doesn't mean he's a Nephilim, just because he's a giant. There might be something

• 33:28Wes Germer?

  else going on there. Have you talked to the local tribes about Patrick? I mean, have you said, have you tried to communicate with them? A lot of times, Native Americans, they never write anything down. It's always passed down verbally. Have you spoken to them about Patrick to try and get more information?

• 33:48Speaker 05

  I did contact a couple people in tribal government. They didn't respond. I think this is a very sensitive issue. I also contacted the anthropology department at Washington State University with the suggestion that it is maybe something their students might want to look into. And they responded back, actually, which is a very rare thing for me. But they said, "Thank you, but no, we're convinced that tribal government would not allow any such investigation, that it would be considered insensitive to families there." And that also,

• 34:32Speaker 05

  they, they consider Scanacom kind of a sacred being, and that it wouldn't be appropriate to stir things up in that way. I do see, though, Wes, that on one day, I had three separate contacts to my academia.edu website from Nestle in Washington, which is where Patrick, I believe, spent most of his, his young life. So I can tell that they have looked into it. And I've been waiting for the injunction, frankly. Someday, I probably should go there. I would love to go there and actually just be on the ground and look

• 35:17Speaker 05

  into some things, some places there. Some of the other stories from the Colville are pretty interesting as well.

• 35:24Wes Germer?

  Yeah, I can understand the Native Americans' response to that, especially trying to protect living family members. And I hope people go out and get the book Before Patty, Volume One, Patrick, the Sasquatch Human Hybrid and Our Genetic Inheritance. If you go to beforepatty.com, you can get a copy of it. And I can't wait to read my copy of it. What made you write this book, Norm? Was it just kind of the story of Patrick? Or did you have your own experiences that got you interested in especially writing something like this?

• 36:06Speaker 05

  Well, for one, it's just an amazing story. Patrick's life was just filled with drama. It would make a great mini series, I think. So just, just his life, even not even looking at what he might have been, was amazing. But yeah, yes, yes, I've, I've had experiences and one sighting. I've had things related to Sasquatch going on in my life since the mid 70s, I think. I've had sighting, some tracks, scat, vocals, stick structures. I love looking into stick structures.

• 36:46Speaker 05

  I've written two papers now on Sasquatch that can be found at my academia.edu site.

• 36:54Wes Germer?

  I'd be interested in reading those papers, Norm. What was the site?

• 36:59Speaker 05

  Academia.edu/NormanSoli. S is in Sam, O L L I E. And that should take you right to it. And there, there's two papers. They're really academic papers that can be downloaded. And there's also a presentation on stick structures that I found in the Colorado Rockies.

• 37:27Wes Germer?

  Tell me about your sighting. Where were you at? What were you doing and what happened?

• 37:34Speaker 05

  So, there was a period where I just threw up my arms and said, "This Sasquatch stuff is is just nuts." I read about somebody finding footprints under their bedroom window in Bellevue, Washington. And I thought, "This is just crazy." And I really thought, "I can't... An elusive mountain ape is not going to be looking in people's bedroom windows." And I just kind of dropped it for a long time. And Sasquatch was not in my head at all when in... I think it was 2008, I went to a spiritual retreat not too far from Chicago, Illinois. It was in Illinois. It was just outside of Woodstock, Illinois, where the exterior scenes

• 38:16Speaker 05

  of Groundhog's Day with Bill Murray were filmed. So it was about two miles from there where Bill Murray had filmed that movie. It was a 40-acre grounds. It was an old Catholic retreat center.

• 38:29Speaker 05

  And this was composed of mainly lectures, followed by breaks, and then more lectures. In the breaks, I'm kind of an outdoor guy, and I'd been sitting around. I would head for the woods, not thinking about Sasquatch at all. But one thing I had noticed on one of my times walking around is there was a funny trail that came onto the lawns around a corner. It wasn't wasn't visible from the buildings. And I thought, "Well, that's odd. Why are people walking over here and in enough numbers to make this a very well-defined trail?" This trail was like 3-4 feet wide. It was

• 39:09Speaker 05

  it was quite the trail, and it's what I now call a big-boy trail. It didn't go under low branches. It had a lot of headroom on this trail, as opposed to grizzly trails up here where, when you realize you're on a grizzly trail, you get worried because it's going under low branches. So, I take this trail. I make a beeline for it. I'd already planned to explore this trail, and I got out of the lecture hall pretty fast. And I'm making this long, winding arc to my left through what are dense deciduous trees. It was summer, it was daylight, but there's a really thick canopy. They were

• 39:49Speaker 05

  very old trees. So it's kind of gloomy under all these trees, but it's pretty open. It's, it's um, it's good line of sight. So I come around, I go up for a slight incline, and I'm coming back around towards where the main trail is, and I can hear some of the other attendees are walking. They're not in view yet, but I can hear conversations and people coming along, and I know they're going to be coming soon. But one thing, I do notice one figure, and this is only about five foot, six inches tall. It's maybe 150 feet away from me. It's down a little bit below me. It's very close to the main trail.

• 40:33Speaker 05

  It's not close enough to pick out facial features, but to me, it just looks like a regular old person, except it's uniformly black. There's no change in coloration, like the cuffs of the sleeves, where the shirt meets the pants, etc. It's uniformly black, and it's fuzzy around the edges. Now, I'm in my spiritual retreat mode. I'm not really taking this in because I'm too busy being holy or something. I'm kind of in my head, but I'm aware of this figure, and it's just slowly starting to work into my head that,

• 41:11Speaker 05

  wait, this isn't quite right. And I become aware that this figure is spying on the approaching people, which is odd, and that starts to get my attention. Its head is swiveling back and forth as it seems to be looking around tree trunks or whatever's in the way. And it's high stepping over branches and brush and going down on its toes. It's um,

• 41:39Speaker 05

  It's really, it's definitely spying on the approaching people. And I'm just now starting to think, wait a second, what's going on here? And from my point of view, it seems to pass behind like a two foot in diameter trunk of one of these big old maples, oaks, I don't know what they were really. Um, beech is probably another possibility birch. It, from my point of view, it seems to pass behind that trunk. And I'm waiting for it to come out from behind the trunk, but it never does. That's just it. And I, at that point, I'm finally really taking this figure seriously when I can't see it anymore.

• 42:20Speaker 05

  And I stop and I wait for it to come out and it never comes out. It's just gone. And I literally, Wes, I, I thought I was seeing maybe some sort of spiritual apparition, apparition, excuse me. And maybe I was, but it never came out. I thought maybe it was the guru spying on us and some sort of weird out of body shape. And it took years until I heard on some podcast, it might've been Sasquatch Chronicles about somebody spotting a Sasquatch even closer to downtown Chicago than I was.

• 43:00Speaker 05

  And then I thought, oh, I'm supposed to be into this subject.

• 43:08Speaker 05

  I, I didn't even recognize it when it happened.

• 43:14Wes Germer?

  What made you think what you saw was a Sasquatch?

• 43:18Speaker 05

  Well, one thing was the fuzziness. I think that fuzziness, now that I think about it, wasn't like some sort of spiritual halo thing. I think it was probably hair. It was fuzzy because it was fuzzy. That really stuck with me, that it was not a distinct outline. It was a fuzzy outline. I also, on those same grounds, one day I decided to explore a low swampy area with brush and trees. But it was swampy with reeds and stuff here and there. And I got partway into it, and I can still remember this. I just felt like, no, I really shouldn't be in here.

• 43:59Speaker 05

  And even though I'd gone in there with the intention to explore, I turned around and left, which at the time too, I didn't recognize as anything odd. Um, I also, when I was younger, I did some pointed research in the Washington State Cascades, where I was deliberately looking for Sasquatch. I would have been in my very early twenties then. I went up along Highway 2. Uh, you've done, I believe, programs on sightings around the index area. I was very close to index. I literally, I kind of mapped out. I don't claim to be a map dowsers, but I looked at topo maps and I thought, well, if I was Sasquatch, an elusive mountain ape,

• 44:44Speaker 05

  I would be up at this large, high mountain lake that has no trails going into it. And I went up there and, keep in mind, I am looking for Sasquatch. This is what I'm trying to do. But I'm looking for an elusive mountain ape. Uh, I had to go, I had to bushwhack for like the last two miles. I picked a spur ridge. Spur ridges tend to not have as many fallen trees across the ridge itself, because they tend to fall to either side. Um, I'd been fighting, uh, hemlock and cedar and Douglas fir, trunks climbing over and around them, so it had been slow going. But I hit the spur ridge, and that went pretty well.

• 45:26Speaker 05

  I go up to this lake, and it's beautiful. I have fishing gear with me. I want to fish. And I'm thinking, this is a lake, nobody gets to fish. Although I did find an old fire ring up there, so I realized, people do get in there now and then. I pitched my tent and by this point, it's like dinnertime. I make some food and it's starting to cloud up and getting a little drizzly. So I decided to just go into my tent for the night. And I do. And I'm pretty good at sleeping in tents out in the woods, but I woke up in the middle of the night to a trailing kind of high pitched howling noise.

• 46:06Speaker 05

  Um, not like coyote. I hear coyote plenty. Could be a few things, but it went on long enough that I was able to wake up and think, what is that noise? But it's pitch dark and raining like mad outside. So I'm not going to go out. I sleep in till morning, sun's coming up, the clouds are parting. I open up my tent and there's a large track impression right in front of my tent in the mud. And that just struck me as weird because I couldn't remember there being a lot of mud when I went into the tent. And I didn't remember stepping in a bunch of mud, but you know, it was really wet, gloppy mud. I couldn't

• 46:49Speaker 05

  really make out any details at all. Um, it was big, but you know, not enormous. And I frankly, now I'd be all about it, but I didn't, I didn't do much in the way of measuring. I didn't take any pictures, but I probably did have some sort of camera with me. And then the typical thing happens. I start feeling like I need to leave. And I'm in no way conscious about that feeling in me. I don't think, well, this is odd. I'm up here to look for Sasquatch. Why do I feel I need to leave right now? But I not, it wasn't like terror, but I just had this time to go, time to go, time to go. And I

• 47:33Speaker 05

  pack up and I head out and instead of taking the nice spur ridge route, which was great, I just head straight down the mountainside. So I'm dealing with all the fallen timber, et cetera. And I'm moving fast. I'm feeling a sense of urgency. I'm not running, but I'm going faster than I should be. I actually twist my knee and old knee injury, I aggravated. I stop and I put on an ace bandage and I'm, you know, I'm still dealing with the elusive mountain ape theory here. And this, this, how I react to this reminds me of the, the woman that you had tell you

• 48:16Speaker 05

  that there can't be Sasquatch living in her woods because of the black people that are already living in there. I hear, as I have been hearing some on the hike down, I, I hear branches cracking and breaking, not loud, not obnoxious, but I can hear them up slope behind me. And I think to myself, boy, the deer and elk around here sure are clumsy, which is really ridiculous. Even if you panic a deer into making a lot of noise, it's going to be in front of you or off to the side. They're not behind you. Uh, I get finally down to the bottom of that drainage. I step out into the bright sunshine

• 48:58Speaker 05

  and that urgency, it's like flipping a switch. It was just gone. I felt great out there, out from under the trees, but I stuck in the creek. I literally walked in the creek down until I hit the trail that I come in on. But at that point, everything was great. No worries.

• 49:18Wes Germer?

  Have you ever heard any strange vocalizations when you've been out there in the woods that you couldn't quite place?

• 49:25Speaker 05

  I've heard a few things. Um, I've heard before, like even here in Alaska, and I, I do have some, I think, activity around me here. I'm in rural Alaska in the interior. Uh, here I've heard really long drown out. Once again, that was, it was kind of like a wailing sound. And I wasn't even convinced it wasn't like big truck tires on the highway that was like three miles away doing some weird bouncing. But I've also from up close, way out in the bush, and actually coincidentally, not very far from where McCandless from Into

• 50:06Speaker 05

  the Wild died, only about five miles upstream from there. I heard from what seemed to be only like a hundred twenty-five feet away, a hundred feet away, like a nervous, I don't know, wailing, um, sighing sound. Um, and it was kind of high pitched.

• 50:28Speaker 05

  And I had just stepped out of a cabin to relieve myself. Uh, this is definitely out in the bush. We had, uh, we actually fat tired in there. Fat tire bike. But I stepped out of the cabin to relieve myself and like some, some of these things go, there's often like an impression that comes with it. And the, the impression I had even then was I had surprised a female with a kid or kids and she was just anxious that I had come out of the cabin and she was so

• 51:07Speaker 05

  close by and she was making the sound to try to alert maybe males in the area. Um, so that, that was the vocal I had. Uh, another one I've encountered was not too long ago and strangely this was in Western Massachusetts, but a very rural area. Uh, and this was, uh, this was really a head scratcher. I was with, uh, the owner of the farm I was working on. He had about 300 acres in woods, surrounded by woods and woods and more woods. And up the hill from us, we could hear an off trail dirt bike

• 51:51Speaker 05

  up in the woods above us. And there were old roads crisscross in this hillside. So we thought, hey, has a biker gotten in up there somehow? And he's, is he biking around? And it was very specific. We could tell where the sound was coming from. And me and this other man, we headed uphill to try to find this dirt biker.

• 52:19Speaker 05

  And we get to those old roads and not only are there no tracks in the moist ground, there are just no dirt bike tracks around. It would have taken very easily. But there's so many trees fallen over. We can't imagine how a dirt biker could be in there to start with. They'd only be able to go like 50 or 100 feet and then they'd be dealing with a big trunk pinning them in. But, but that wasn't it. Speaking of vocals, the man I was with said, wait a minute, do you hear those voices? And I could not hear a thing. But he said, I can hear a conversation. And at that point, he started getting an

• 53:02Speaker 05

  easy, even though we're up there specifically looking for the dirt biker. And we headed out. The last vocal was in Denali National Park. I used to work in Denali. And one day, I'm a hiker. I love to hike. I decided I was going to climb a mountain near this remote work camp that I lived at. That's actually 50 miles into Denali National Park. And this was a long hike. It took me to get to this mountain. It took me to what's called ape, not ape draw, excuse me, bear draw. And as opposed to the wide glacial

• 53:46Speaker 05

  valley I had been walking on, bear draw is a V-shaped valley. And it's very nerve wracking. It wouldn't be as nerve wracking if you didn't have to go and call it bear draw. But when you're going up it, you can't help but think, if a bear is coming down this narrow V-shaped valley, you're going to run into the bear. So it's nerve wracking. I also had a mission. A, another park service employee, employee, excuse me, had asked me to check out. This old cabin site in the woods before you really enter the V-shaped valley. It was when things were still a little bit level on the one side of the creek, but heavily treed with white spruce trees.

• 54:31Speaker 05

  So I leave the creek to go try to look for this cabin. And I don't find the cabin, but what I found is another big boy trail. But it's paralleling the creek. It's about 100 feet into the woods, maybe 150 feet. When I turn around, I see, oh, you can really see anybody or any animals going up and down the creek from there, but you're completely hidden in the foliage here in the dark woods. So there's this trail and it's strange because it's big, it's well trodden. I can't see tracks in it because it's like, um, it's, it's forest floor debris. But I can tell it's churned up.

• 55:13Speaker 05

  It's a big boy trail. It's not going under branches. It's going around branches. I'm thinking to myself, why are hikers coming in here and hiking it? It just seemed like there'd be no reason for them to be in there. And I followed it for a ways and it just petered out uphill. It didn't go anywhere and I did find one tree break. And at that point I am wondering about Sasquatch. There's a tree break. It's a willow. It's been broken. It's, it's kind of shredded at the break. But I also knew that there'd been a heavy snow that had since melted. And I just had to chalk it up to the snow. But I did find there was a rotten stump.

• 55:57Speaker 05

  It had been actually maybe a 10 foot tall rotten trumpet. It had been just completely torn apart, but bear once again, it is bear draw after all. I go on, I climb my mountain, I come back down, I go through the V draw. I'm not running into any bears. I am just starting to get out into where the creek bed is widening. It's nice, sunny. I'm starting to feel like, hey, I'm going to cheat death one more time. I know I'm only about half a mile from the main river bar, which is very wide. Which, by the way, I had passed a small upside down tree in that wide river bar to get to this place,

• 56:38Speaker 05

  but I chalked it up to hikers goofing around. It was only like a three inch diameter tree trunk with root balls sticking up out of the the gravel of the river bar, but I figured, now I gotta figure it's humans. So I'm into this nice, bright sunny spot. I'm breathing easy and I hear one syllable and it goes like this. "Oi." And I stop and I'm thinking, can a grizzly make a sound like that? And I don't even know, maybe it can. I can tell where it's coming from. It's coming through the woods, not so far away, but I could hear it over the, I could hear it over the creek, so it must have been pretty loud.

• 57:21Speaker 05

  I tell myself, you know, you're this like Sasquatch adjacent guy. You should probably go in there and check it out.

• 57:30Speaker 05

  I, I could not make myself do that. I decided it'd be much better to just head on out to that very wide river bar and ignore that sound. But a couple of years later, Wes, I'm listening to an M.K. Davis recording. It's called Shed Sounds. And what it is, it's a CCTV recording that picked up strange things on audio, but never saw anything on the video. But he had had funny things happening on this property, not M.K. Davis, but the person he got it from. And I believe this was in the eastern U.S.

• 58:11Speaker 05

  And what this, this soundtrack purports to be is something rummaging around in what apparently isn't just a shed. It's, it's more like a shop. And it seems to be rummaging around in the tools and the work projects, et cetera. And it's like talking to itself and it starts seemingly practically, practicing English. It's, it's the weirdest thing. I don't know if you've heard it, but it's practicing English. And I think it's about three minutes and 40 seconds in or so, it starts going, "Hi, hi." And the last attempt, it goes, "Oi."

• 58:58Speaker 05

  The same sound I heard up in Alaska. And that was a funny moment when I heard that sound.

• 59:06Wes Germer?

  Yeah, I have heard that before. It is a weird recording. For the audience, this is what Norm is referring to.

• 59:15Speaker 06

  (sniffing)

• 59:46Speaker 06

  Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay. Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay. What, what?

• 59:55Speaker 06

  (groaning)

• 59:59Speaker 06

  Ay, ay. Ah. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. (groaning)

• 1:00:17Speaker 06

  Where can you go? Where can you go?

• 1:00:27Speaker 06

  (groaning) Hi. Hi.

• 1:00:39Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 1:00:44Speaker 06

  (screaming)

• 1:01:13Wes Germer?

  It's an odd recording. What do you think Sasquatch is, Norm?

• 1:01:19Speaker 05

  Oh, man. That damn question you ask. You know, half of the book is me trying to answer that question. Um, the easy answer is to say that Sasquatch is really the total of your shows, Wes. You've talked before about how you really should make a database out of the information coming out of your shows. I think that database would say what Sasquatch is. But when you ask that question, you're probably asking, "Explain how Sasquatch could be here. Why do we have this thing called Sasquatch?"

• 1:02:00Speaker 05

  It's not too hard to describe its physical structure, what it eats, its behavior, its habits, etc. But to explain how it's in our midst, that's tough, and I've spent so much time on that question. Book number two in my Before Patty series, I'm going to make a good faith effort to come up with an evolutionarily plausible explanation for Sasquatch and the rest of what is being described around the world. I'm going to give it my best shot. I'm going to give it that best shot, and I think I can do it. I think I can do it in a way

• 1:02:44Speaker 05

  that maybe somebody with a scientific bent or somebody thinking it's all physical can accept. I'm going to try, but when I get done, I don't think I'm going to believe it myself because there's the weird stuff, and some of the weird stuff, frankly, happens to me.

• 1:03:09Speaker 05

  So when any of us try to explain what Sasquatch is, in the end, we're bumping up against the weird stuff.

• 1:03:18Speaker 05

  I honestly believe that it can hybridize with modern humans. Based upon that, in the last paper I wrote, it's at academia.edu backslash Norman Sully, I talk about that scenario. I think what we have going on is what I call punctuated hybridizations. I think there are a bunch of things that all should be classified as human, including, for instance, the Minnesota ice map. I think they can be categorized as human, but they stay apart long enough that they

• 1:03:59Speaker 05

  start looking different, they develop specific area tendencies, you know, black ones here, chimp-faced ones there, etc. But every few hundred years, they meet up and they do what human species do, they interbreed. And we're close enough that we're all human, but we're far enough apart that we often scare the hell out of each other. Now, having said that, you know, I am flat out saying, I think they're human. Not modern human, but I think they're human. I think they should be put in the same genus as us.

• 1:04:41Speaker 05

  I think they should be treated as an uncontacted tribe that prefers not to be contacted. And you've run into those, I know, you had a horrible experience. My experiences have all been, they range from humorous to maybe stern at the worst.

• 1:05:01Speaker 05

  I think that's what we're dealing with, but there is the weird stuff. But at the same time, I think the weird stuff happens, has happened, and will happen to some humans as well. Some of the weird stuff that is reported through Sasquatch is reported in humans. There's entire mystery schools that talk about these things and try to develop them in their members.

• 1:05:31Speaker 05

  So, Book Three, in my ongoing attempt to say what Sasquatch is, I'll try to deal with the weird stuff. In the end, I won't be able to do it justice, but I'm gonna try.

• 1:05:42Wes Germer?

  Well, I can't wait to check out your next book and I hope people go and read this one before Patty volume one Patrick, the Sasquatch, human hybrid and our genetic inheritance. And you can go to beforepatty.com to get a copy and I have my copy and I'm definitely going to read it. Last question I want to ask you, Norm, when you bought that book from my Igor Bursoff, Dr. Bursoff, why was it $200? I mean, that must have been one hell of a book.

• 1:06:14Speaker 05

  Well, keep in mind, he probably doesn't know the exchange rates. He was already in his late seventies. I think he had literally schlepped boxes of this book from Moscow to Kennewick, Washington. And it is an amazing book. I mean, it has things in here you don't hear about in North America. It's over 400 pages long. It's got hundreds of illustrations. It's got tree breaks. It's got hand drawn pictures of Sasquatch like creatures. It's got Dr. Meldrum is in it. Your mentor, Dr. Bindernagel is in it. It's, it's, um, how

• 1:06:57Speaker 05

  many of these books are in North America? I personally think it's a collector's item. I've got his, he signed the book for me. I'm, I'm very happy that I bought it.

• 1:07:08Wes Germer?

  Yeah, I hear you. I'm just breaking balls, man. But I appreciate coming on, Norm. It's a fascinating account. Like I said, I can't wait to check out the book. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on.

• 1:07:21Speaker 05

  Well, Wes, I really appreciate being on. I started listening to you in 2012 until I started writing this book. I don't know if I ever missed an episode. I'm a paying member, well worth it. It's, it's quite a kick to be on this show and your, your Sasquatch Chronicles actually has a lot to do with this book. It's quoted in the book. The final chapter, I tell about the SpongeBob SquarePants incident, which I think is something every researcher needs to deal with. So I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

• 1:08:00Wes Germer?

  Thanks again, Norm. And that's it for tonight, everyone. Remember, if you've had an encounter, shoot me an email. My email address is [email protected]. And if you get a chance, check out sasquatchchronicles.com. You can become a member and get additional shows. I'll see the members back on Wednesday for the live show. Should be about four o'clock Pacific Standard Time. Until next time, everyone.

• 1:09:17Speaker 07

  Mindlessly drinking, not tasting, just thinking about limitless infinite life. She is my thunder. No wonder I'll go under. The intoxicating danger I lie. Save me from myself. Let me drown in my bad day. Let me float away. Save me from myself. Let me drown in my bad day.

• 1:10:04Speaker 07

  Beauty is a ballet, let me sail away.

• 1:10:16Speaker 07

  Beauty is a ballet, let me sail away. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:52Speaker 07

  Darkness approaching, deep water keeps flowing. It inhales me in a stormy tide. And it's emotion, a doggone devotion. And a pip for me, bring the shore to life. Save me from myself, let me drown in my ballet. Let me float away.

• 1:11:27Speaker 07

  Save me from myself, let me drown in my ballet.

• 1:11:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:39Speaker 07

  Beauty is a ballet, let me sail away.

• 1:11:51Speaker 07

  Beauty is a ballet, let me sail away.

• 1:11:59Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:49Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:13:58Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Speaker 07

  Woo!