555 | Born to Walk

Joshua and T. K. speak with Mark Sisson about the health benefits of walking, ultra-high-networth minimalism, the most minimalist exercises, and much more! Discussed in this episode: What does the fitness industry get wrong about exercise? (2:48) How does Mark rate these 12 fitness activities? (11:01) If you woke up tomorrow ultra-wealthy, in what ways would you still be a minimalist? (32:30) Right Here, Right Now: The How to Let Go Tour and Joshua's late brother's birthday. (48:24) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  This podcast has bad words.

• 0:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist Joshua Fields Millburn here, TK Coleman over there. Looking like his vagus nerve has been fully stimulated.

• 0:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He's sleeping better. Oh, man. We have a special guest here today. Today's guest is one of the founding fathers of the ancestral health movement, as well as the founder of the popular American food brand Primal Kitchen and the minimalist footwear company Paluva. Please welcome to the show, our new friend, Mark Sisson.

• 1:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's been a long time coming, Mark. I'm glad you're here today.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  No, I'm thrilled. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

• 1:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We always start with something to chew on here. So I've got something for us to think about for this episode. Enough doesn't get bigger when your bank account does. Enough doesn't get bigger when your bank account does. We'll certainly unpack that truth during today's episode. Mark, I wanted you here today for several reasons. First off, you are a ultra-high net worth individual who still lives mostly like a minimalist, and I find that to be so fascinating. We'll talk about that at the bottom of page one today. Also, since you're very fit and healthy, this guy's 73 years old, and he's so healthy.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Man, when I hugged him this morning, like, I felt more solid just from hugging him.

• 2:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Like via osmosis. I'm 3% fitter already. Yes. And so I want to get your perspective on minimalist exercise. We'll talk about that. Also, on pages two and three, I want to bring you into our world, talk a bit about minimalism and decluttering, answer some questions about minimalism as well. So as you probably know, this is a listener-driven show. Let's dive into our callers, 406-219-7839, if you'd like to call the show, or you can just go right to theminimalists.com/podcast and record a voice memo right there on our website. Shout out to our patrons. Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber so we can prioritize your message when you call in. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement free because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck.

• 2:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, they do. Our first question today is from Jim.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  Hey there. This is Jim calling from Cincinnati. I was just wondering if you have any tips on minimalist exercise. I'm looking for not the stereotypical go-to-the-gym, back-and-bys, chest-and-tries type of workout. I'm more looking for maybe any tips on different types of walking that I can do, or if there's any sort of barefoot walking that is better for my overall health. I'm just looking for something that is more holistic and can be done throughout the day, as opposed to just one point in the day. Thanks so much.

• 3:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Mark, we saved this one for you for obvious reasons here. You wrote a new book. It's called Born to Walk. I'll hold it up. We'll put a link to this in the show notes as well. I want to play a little game with you here in a moment about which exercises are minimalist, not minimalist, which ones are maybe a bit overrated. But first, it seems to me that Jim understands something about exercise that the fitness industry often gets wrong. Which is what exactly?

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Well, there's, let's unpack this. First of all, he recognizes that walking is a critical component of an exercise program. Should be for anyone. Walking is the quintessential human movement. Everyone should be walking. We are born to walk, hence the name of the book. Our physiology is designed to have us moving around a lot at a low level of activity all the time. A lot of our physiology, a lot of our biology depends on us moving. Our lymph system requires that we move to, you know, force the infiltrated blood and lymph through the system. The heart wants to be engaged in an activity that's slightly above rest most times. We're on two feet. We're bipedal. We'd fall over if we didn't

• 4:45Speaker 02

  move around a lot, right? If we had to stand still all day long, like, you know, cows in the field or whatever, or standing in one place for hours at a time. We can't do that. We're not designed to do that. So.

• 4:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And yet we do it every day in cubicles, offices, etc.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  It's ridiculous. So, so, point number one, we are born to walk. Jim recognizes this, and he's looking for tips on, you know, how to walk better. We can talk about this throughout the show. Certainly, walking barefoot is an ideal way to do that. Now, you know, here's an early plug for my shoe company, Paluva, but I designed a shoe that's designed to help you walk better as if you were barefoot, but navigating concrete and pavement and hardwood floors and glass and tile and all the other stuff that we have in our environment that we've created for ourselves. Because I think that every step, what we say in my company is every step is a rep. Every step you take is a rep toward a workout, if you

• 5:39Speaker 02

  do it right. Now, if you're in cushion-thick restrictive shoes, you're bypassing a lot of the potential benefits of this. So, yeah, walking as often as possible. Now, here's an interesting, like, you know, what's the minimalist concept of walking? It would be to walk whenever you can for as long as you can, as long as you feel like it. What does that look like? Well, if I do five, 10-minute walks a day, that's probably better than doing one 50-minute walk a day. So that's, that's a minimalist approach to small bites, small chunks throughout the day, active movement throughout the day. And, you know, visualize somebody who's got their checklist of all the things I'm going to do today, and

• 6:21Speaker 02

  one of them is I gotta get my walk in. So I've gotta, I gotta make the calls. I gotta journal. I gotta, you know, whatever I'm doing, sitting down, and then I'm gonna get up and walk for an hour, walk for 50 minutes, and then check that off, and then I'm done.

• 6:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Well, no, you're not done. I mean, that's what we're talking about here are bite-sized movements, mini workouts, if you want to call them that. They don't take any extraordinary amount of energy, and yet the body expects you to do this. The body expects you to be moving at this low level, no cortisol produced, no stress hormones, no G-forces produced. You're not jumping up and down. You're not doing jumping jacks. You're not running. You're not sprinting, whatever. The walking becomes the baseline for everyone's fitness program. Now, if, so, what I said about, you know, five small 10-minute walks being arguably better than the one 50-minute walk, I'm not gonna, you know, negate the effects of a

• 7:16Speaker 02

  good 50-minute walk, because I do one every night. But the, but the concept is walk, walk, walk, walk, walk throughout the day, and then twice a week, go to the gym and lift weights. Not for, you know, back-and-bys and chest-and-tries or whatever. Twice a week, go to the gym, lift heavy, lift heavy things. That's, that's part of the concept of being human. It's what we call the minimum effective dose of exercise. So I've lived my life recently around trying to identify what's the least amount of something that I can do to get the most benefit. What's the minimum effective dose of how much food I eat, how much protein I take in, how much sleep I get? What's the minimum effective dose of exercise that

• 7:55Speaker 02

  I can engage in to optimize my health, optimize my energy, to optimize my longevity? So, back to Jim's question, which is how do I create a minimalist sort of routine? Walk a lot, that's your low-level activity. And a lot, by the way, is being written now about zone one. You know, we've been hearing about zone two training for the last five or 10 years, like zone two's where you ought to hang out. Zone one, which is below that, now we're realizing that some of the top athletes, top endurance athletes in the world, spend most of their training time in zone one, just doing the movement, just going through it, in long periods of time. So it's not like you can, you know, get the benefit from

• 8:36Speaker 02

  that 10 or 15 minutes once a day. But zone one training, so you establish an aerobic base. With that, you lift weights twice a week, and you sprint once a week. Wait, Mark, sprinting? What is, well, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to go to the track to sprint, like an Olympic sprinter, but do something that raises your heart rate, that gives you the opportunity to give a maximal output for 20 seconds or 30 seconds at a time. Rest two minutes. Do another 20 or 30 seconds, high output. Rest, and do that six to eight times. One workout, once a week. So now, again, putting it all together, lots of walking.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Walk whenever you can. Find time to walk. Hey, if you're, if you're in an office and you're taking calls, pace around the office. Walk down the hall. Take calls, you know, while you're, you can multitask doing this. So walk a lot, lift weights twice a week. And the twice a week, that, you can do it three, but any more than that, and it starts to lose its effectiveness. It becomes no longer the minimum effective dose. The benefits fall off. So, twice a week, if you do it hard enough, which isn't to say you're gonna, you know, strain a muscle or whatever, but if you do it hard enough, you shouldn't be able to do it again tomorrow or the next day. You should give your body a chance to recover and adapt to that work, so that when you, when you do go to the gym the next time, three

• 10:03Speaker 02

  days later, you're a little bit stronger. You're a little bit more energetic. You have a little bit more mitochondria to work on your behalf. Hence, the minimal effective dose of exercise would be lots of walking, lots of low-level activity, could be swimming, could be biking, but walking is just everyone can do it, everyone has access to it. Lift weights twice a week and sprint once a week, and you will get to 85 to 90% of your genetic potential doing that. Now, if you want to go, you know, race 5Ks or 10Ks, you're going to have to do a lot more work for incrementally smaller amounts of benefit. Does that make sense?

• 10:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It makes a lot of sense. And I'll say that I've been really enjoying the book, and there was something that shocked me about running. And I would say that you are anti-distance running, and I never really thought much about it. I just always assumed that running is, walking's good, therefore, running must be better. And so, I thought we'd play a little game called Rate These Minimalist Exercises. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best, I'd love for you to rate the following 12 activities, and why you think they get that score. Number one, distance running.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  It's a 2. It would be a 0 or a 1, but there are some people who benefit from distance running. So, when I wrote this book, and again, I have a background as an, I was an endurance athlete for most of my career, and I suffer a little bit as a result of it now. I overtrained, I damaged my heart from the hard work that I did. What you realize is that most people who run today are not genetically predisposed to being able to run long distances. We were born to walk. We were not born to run metronomically, 7, 8, 9-minute miles every day for 45 minutes or an hour and a half. We just, we're not designed to do that. It's too stressful on the body, it's too, the joints in particular.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  It typically raises cortisol, which is the stress hormone that has manifested itself in all sorts of other issues like immune suppression and things like that. People who engage in a running program to lose weight typically fail at that because running at too high a heart rate, which most people do, doesn't burn fat, it burns glycogen that's stored in your muscle. And when you get rid of the glycogen in your muscle, the brain goes, hey, wait, we gotta, we gotta eat more to replace the glycogen that we lost. So, people who, who are engaging in a running program specifically to lose weight, almost invariably fail, unless they're very, very aggressive about being, you know, a ketogenic

• 12:39Speaker 02

  diet, or, you know, struggling and suffering more than they have to, to get to that point. So, distance running, here's the thing, most people, the only people who should be running are, are people with skinny bodies, ectomorphs, long legs, large lung capacity, and high pain tolerance. And then, they should probably be racing. But everyone else should be walking, just like we talked about, walking, a little bit of sprinting, lifting weights, and, and 80% of your body composition happens as a result of your dietary choices, anyway.

• 13:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  So, you can, you can manipulate how your genes express themselves to burn fat rather than store fat, based on your food choices and the timing of your food, whether it's, you know, low carb, or keto, or intermittent fasting. There's a lot of different ways we can develop metabolic flexibility to be able to burn stored body fat, that don't require struggling and suffering and going overboard on, on creating stress hormones, and then being frustrated and depressed because all of that hard work didn't pay off.

• 13:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Let's rate sprinting, 1 to 10.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  It's a 10. The, you know, the caveat, or the asterisk is, some people can't sprint because they're not, they're not, you know, the, the life that they've lived thus far has set them up for either being overweight, or having joint issues that prevent that. But, most people, and then, of course, if you haven't done anything to, to exercise at the highest level, if you haven't revved your heart up to near max, we have to work into that. But if you're fit enough to be able to go sprint, it's probably the single greatest, I mean, what I've said for 20 years is, nothing cuts you up like sprinting. In other words, nothing really has an effect on your dropping body fat as an exercise better than sprinting does.

• 14:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What about machine weights, going to the gym?

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Machine weights are fine for people who are, you know, don't have a trainer, don't have a coach, don't have somebody who is, you know, where they're not training for an Olympic lifting event or something like that. I mean, free weights would be better, so I, yeah, machine weights would be, machines weights are a 6 or a 7, sure.

• 14:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And free weights would be what?

• 14:57Speaker 02

  8 or 9, up to a 10, if you know what you're doing.

• 15:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Okay.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And what about walking? Is it a 10?

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Walking's a 10.

• 15:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What's the ideal number of steps?

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Well, great question. You know, this, this idea of 10,000 steps came about, historically, there was a Japanese company that made a pedometer, one of the first devices that measured your steps. And in order to sell the pedometer, and they had to give people a reason to use it, to accumulate a certain number on that, on that, it was one of the early devices that, that monitored, you know, activity. So, that's how the 10,000 steps kind of came into being. 10,000 steps is a lot of steps. I mean, it's, you know, if I do 10,000 steps, it's 5 miles for me in a day, and I'm, so, for somebody who is in an office situation and doesn't have access to, you know, a beautiful

• 15:47Speaker 02

  walking trail, or whatever, 4,000 steps could be a good starting point on a daily basis. You know, that's, that adds up to a fair amount of miles over the week. And, and again, it's, it's not about the calories burned, it's about the movement, it's about the motion, it's about putting your body through different ranges of motion and planes of, of activity. So, like, I'm not a fan of any of the wearable devices. Like, that's where I'm a real minimalist, I'm like...

• 16:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm gonna hide my Oura ring.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  No, no, no. No, no, I'm, I'm the anti-biohacker in that regard.

• 16:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love that.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  And I'm the anti-quantified self. Well, because what I teach, I want people to be intuitive about everything they do. I want them to be intuitive about their food choices, and when they eat, and am I really hungry? And if I'm, if I am really hungry, okay, what am I gonna eat? If I'm not hungry, why do I need to eat? What do I feel like when I get to the gym today? I don't, I didn't sleep that well last night, not because my Oura ring told me.

• 16:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  But because I just didn't wake up feeling great. I get to the gym, I do one or two sets, it's okay to stop working out and say, today's not my day. You know, I want people to be intuitive about, about their choices in a way that frees them to feel, to not feel guilty for having messed up somehow because some device had, had an output that said, you know, you're wearing your glucose monitor, you know, your CGM, and, you know, you had an extra helping of rice last night, and your blood sugar went to 160. Well, it came back down, and it's always gonna do that, and how are you gonna change your life from that, anyway? Don't agonize over that, don't fret about that, just be intuitive about all these things.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  My, you know, I think my, my role in life is to, has been to be an educator. I want, I want to teach people how the body works, and how it responds to certain inputs. I said years ago, you know, we are a genetic recipe that's been forged through millions of years of adversity, and here we are in this age of abundance, and everything around us is taken care of. So, we don't have to exercise, we don't have to eat right, we don't have, we have food around us all the time. So, we have to make these, these choices, and I want people to be able to make these choices from a, a point of view of knowing what happens in the body. So, my job has always been to discover these hidden genetic switches that we all have,

• 18:06Speaker 02

  every one of us, depending, regardless of our familial genetic history, these hidden genetic switches that we can choose to turn on or off based on our behavior, based on how much food we eat, or when we eat, or what kind of food we eat, based on how much sleep we get, or when we go to sleep, based on the movement patterns. Do we lift a lot of weights? Do we run a lot of miles? All these things, we have a real good sense, over the last two decades, of what happens at the level of gene expression when you change the inputs. And so, my, my job has just been to say, hey, here's some new, here's a new set of inputs, you know, let's go, if you wanna, if you wanna put that into your lifestyle, go for it, let's see what happens. You're an experimental one.

• 18:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Rank basketball for me, 1 to 10.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  I mean, basketball's an 8. It's, it's, I don't know, it might even be higher. Basketball combines, you know, mobility, agility, jumping, it's an aerobic sport, but it's an anaerobic sport, because you gotta get back on defense after you miss the shot.

• 19:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Unless you're James Harden.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, okay.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  And you gotta, you know, and then it's hand eye coordination, it's physics, you know, you know, how do you, how do these guys, how they're able to get an alley-oop to the exact right lob?

• 19:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Knowing the guy underneath is going to be there, all these things, you know, so it's a combination of, of so many different, it's like, it's like a decathlon of sorts of different, uh, uh, physical abilities.

• 19:32Speaker 04

  I suppose that would apply to like any sport that requires a broad range of motion, volleyball, um.

• 19:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Tennis. Pickleball. Well, soccer is a great example, but you know, my favorite sport is ultimate frisbee. So if you, have you ever played ultimate?

• 19:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I know, but I have a good friend who, I have two really good friends who are so into it.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  No, it's called ultimate for a reason. It's incredible game and it's a game that, that I would have every, every kid from the age of six learn how to play because again, like basketball, it's got running and jumping and, and changing, uh, and teamwork, which is another aspect of, of some of these sports. You know, it's the soc, the sociology is also a, a important part of this, you know, it's the community. I mean, if you looked at a anti-aging strategy, like look at the blue zones, uh, community, uh, you know, having people that depend on you and you depend on, that's part of team sports as well. So that's why I would, I really would rank basketball way up there.

• 20:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I, I think a lot of these sports, tennis, pickleball, I mean, they're all similar.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If it is appealing to you, it seems to me that you would pick those because they're also easier to enjoy. I think the, the heart of Jim's question was kind of like, ah, I know I'm supposed to go to the gym every day and what we're telling, or you're telling Jim here is, yeah, you can go a couple of times a week, but also there, there are alternatives to that. What do you think about body weight exercise? Pushups, pull ups?

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so great, great segue into the rest of Jim's question, which is, um, yeah, I mean, I, when I travel, I bring a resistance band with me and I can do so much stuff with a resistance band in my hotel room.

• 21:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Um, and then combine that with pushups and, and air squats, uh, and planks and, you know, a number of other, uh, and then there's a whole new Tai Chi movement on, on the internet these days.

• 21:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  It's 50 plus year old guys who are just ripped, but they claim it's all from Tai Chi and it's all these slow movements. I, I call bullshit on that, but.

• 21:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Maybe it's part of their move.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I know some guys that do it, but.

• 21:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I also know some obese guys that do qigong and next to the ripped guy, so results may vary.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  But you know, again, qigong is, it's, it is not about the calories burned, it's about the movement, it's about the ranges and planes of motion. That's what the body wants. The body wants to be put through all, we have all these different gimbals and universal joints and things in our body and, and it wants to be put through these ranges of motion. And all you do is run, uh, train for 10Ks and marathons your whole life, you're pretty good at going ahead, going straight ahead, but you know, put a snowboard on you or ask, a tennis racket in your hand, you're screwed because you haven't done the work.

• 22:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I tried to, I'm sorry, go ahead.

• 22:06Speaker 04

  What about dancing?

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Dancing's great. Dancing's incredible. Yeah. I mean, uh, it's again, especially some of the new stuff I see in modern dance.

• 22:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  They're like Cirque du Soleil people. I mean, they're, they're incredible how they move and, and are able to, that's slow controlled movement, which takes a lot more effort than some dynamic explosive stuff sometimes.

• 22:28Speaker 04

  You think I'll be all right if I go to the track and while everybody's running, I can just be dancing and when they say, what are you doing? I'm like, it's not the calories, man, it's the movement.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. Just bring the big, big enough boombox and.

• 22:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's just TK, he'd be dancing.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. Like y'all, y'all running too fast anyway, so.

• 22:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's a metaphor for TK and the way he lives. He just sort of dances through life. He's enjoying it so much more than everyone else. They're, they're running to get to the finish line.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  But look, isn't that the ultimate goal?

• 22:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  To enjoy life.

• 23:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Amen.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  All the stuff that we do, all this, you know, metric, measuring and quantifying and, and judging and guilt, it's, it's all in contemplation of enjoying one's life. And so, you know, like I look at a guy like Brian Johnson, who God bless him, he's trying to figure out a way to live to 180, but he's giving up the present moment every single day to engage in his protocols so that he lives to 180. Talk about, you know, missing the forest for the trees.

• 23:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 23:32Speaker 04

  I want 200 boring years.

• 23:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  This is the same sort of heuristic of, I'm going to work really hard, 80 hours a week and eventually I'll retire when I hit 70 and then I'll finally be able to enjoy life.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  No, that's a hundred percent what happens to so many people. And, uh, you know, I've, I've throughout, throughout my, my life, I raised a family, I got married, had kids, raised a family, built businesses, but I was almost proud of the fact that I never worked an 80 hour week.

• 23:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  I just, I, I coached little league, um, I refed soccer, I went to every soccer practice, I went to every soccer game and I taught the kids how to boogie board, uh, in, at Zuma, uh, I taught, you know, how to snowboard. This was the stuff that, um, that's what life is about.

• 24:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  And so to, to bypass all that and say, one day when, uh, you know, when I have all the money I need to retire and do some cool stuff, and then it's like, it's all, it's all behind you.

• 24:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I've turned down several speaking gigs because my daughter plays flag football and, uh, she, she went to their equivalent of the Superbowl this past year and I, I don't think the kids even really cared that much about, there were a couple of kids that were super competitive, but most of them were moving and enjoying themselves and it allowed me to sort of just show up and be present and enjoy them as well because unlike you, I did spend a long time in my corporate days, working 70, 80 hours a week and I have a certain disdain for that now. It's like I let my whole life sort of pass me by, I was not present, I was overwhelmed, stressed, angry a lot of the time, I was obese, I weighed about 80 pounds more than I weigh now.

• 25:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it was just, uh, it was kind of a miserable life that looked successful, but the, it was just the trappings of success. Today I like to, I swim about three or four times a week. What are your thoughts if you were to rate swimming on a one to 10?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Great, swimming's great, swimming's a, a 10.

• 25:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's been perfect for movement for me and it's also, I, when I started doing it a couple of years ago, I noticed I had pain in certain areas like my TFL that just went away almost immediate, like within a few weeks, I was feeling appreciably better. It's like, oh, I'm not moving those muscles the way that I should be, or they're overcompensating because my glutes have been turned off for so long.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 25:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, so let's talk a bit about one more, since we have Savvy D here, he's a professional skater. Rate skating, one to 10?

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm gonna, cause he's here, I gotta give it a 10. Uh, no, so, um, you know, skating, skateboarding, inline skating, I mean, there's a lot, lots of different skating, I think we're talking about skateboarding here, but, um, yeah, it's a, it's a great, uh, it's a great way to combine many different modalities and elements of fitness, whether it's endurance, um, you know, hanging in there and I know you guys, you know, you train four hours a day at the parks or break for pizza and a beer and then go back and do more.

• 26:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And some cigarettes.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  But you know, deep.

• 26:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's not Savvy, but that's his friend.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Deep squats, pistol squats, I mean, all the stuff that you guys do, you know, the ollies, the, you know, the olive jumps.

• 26:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, he's 25, but he's one of the fittest people I know. Mark is 73 and if you need any, here's, I'll put a picture of him up on the screen here, actually Tom Cat can. This is what's possible. It's, it's possible to still look like Savvy D when you're 73. Um, and that's, that's all the proof you need. You can look at any studies or whatever, but, but what I love about it is you, you live what you, what you talk about here.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it's understanding that something as simple as walking and some basic movements gets you 80 to 90% of the way there.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  I mean, that's the main thing. It's again, back to this minimum effective dose of whatever it takes to make me happy in my life, with the purpose being, I want to get on to being happy. So I was, you know, the analog of your corporate life was my life as an endurance athlete. I spent 20 years beating myself up alone on the roads, on the trails, on the bikes. Every once in a while I'd ride with somebody else or I'd run with somebody else, but as I look back on a, on an endurance career, all you're doing is managing discomfort. So the better you are, the more elite you are as a runner, the more you have to manage discomfort to train hard enough to be able to get into a race and then really hurt yourself and drag all of the competitors with you down into that pain cave, into that hole and hope you spit them out the back and you win the race.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  It's all about managing discomfort. There is no point in a marathon, after the gun goes off where you go, whoa, this is fun. This is amazing. No, if you're, if you're competitive, it's just, it's misery. Now, compare that with a basketball, NBA playoffs, or World Cup soccer, or MLB, those guys are having fun, they're joking, they love it, right? And even, even though they're busting their ass and they're really, you know, they're really deep in the game and, and it's stressful, they're still, there's the camaraderie, there's the, there's the beauty of a, of a completed pass or a, you know, an assist or a shot made, that doesn't compare, there's, it's just, it's such an amazing feeling for people

• 28:33Speaker 02

  who play team sports and who are, uh, doing that sort of thing versus, you know, kind of this life I had, which was beating myself up. So when I retired from competition, I said, I'm not going to do that again. So like I, I ran a hundred miles a week for seven years and, um, and before and after I ran less than that, but I still ran a lot. I had, I ran, I ran and I rode bikes and whatever. And I said to myself at one point, I said, if it's not fun, I'm not going to do it anymore. So I haven't run a mile in 35 years. I, I literally have not run a mile in 35 years. I haven't gotten a 10K race. Every once in a while I put on the shoes, I'm like, I read the results of an event where some 60 year old guy did a certain time, like I could, I can go back and train, I can do that.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  You know, I get like 200 yards down the road, I'm like, what am I thinking? This, this hurts too much, it's not worth it. Walk home and go, go to the gym and lift weights or something. So

• 29:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Enjoy it.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so what I do now is my, like my sports are ultimate frisbee. I paddle, I do a, I stand up paddle.

• 29:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Paddleboard or the sport?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Good, good points. Paddleboard, stand up paddle. And like I was out two days ago, I live in Miami and there's two 800 pound manatees right underneath my board. Like I thought it was, when I was gonna come up and, and tip me over. I'm out with dolphins. I'm, it's beautiful. I'm out in nature all the time. Sometimes I go out with friends. Sometimes I go out alone. So I do that once a week. And then, and then I have a fat tire bike, you know, you've seen those really fat tire, fat bikes. I got a sand crew and we go out on the sand and we ride on Saturdays. There are four or five of us that ride in the deep sand.

• 30:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's intense.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  It's intense, but we're talking and catching up on, you know, the wives and the girlfriends and all this stuff going on, business, whatever. So it's a, you know, it's, it's got a lot more camaraderie to it than just the sheer rote, you know, grinding it out.

• 30:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You've turned it into a, a team sport.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I think what, to sum it up for Jim is, is movement is a practice, not an appointment. And often we treat, I'm gonna be sedentary for 23.25 hours a day. And then for 45 minutes, I'm just gonna hit it really hard at the gym. And what I'm hearing from you is it's about moving throughout the day.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I mean, I, I think, you know, my, my co-author Brad Kearns and I have talked about, you know, mini workouts for years and years where you just take a break and do 20 pushups.

• 31:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  You know, for no reason at all. You won't, you won't break a sweat doing it. So just go back to what you're doing or do a bunch of air squats or again, walk around, take a phone call while you're walking around or, you know, if you, if you, if you get reception in the hallway, you know, up and down the stairs. It's, it's, there's so many opportunities to move and to make it part of a, what I would call productive leisure where you're multitasking, but you're getting some work done. You know, I, I do a walk every night, about 45 to 50 minutes outside my house. I look forward to it because the way I walk in this, in these particular shoes that I have, you feel the ground. So every, every footstep, it feels like foot candy. It feels amazing. And meanwhile, I'm usually taking,

• 31:41Speaker 02

  making calls on the, on that walk, just catching up with people. But, but getting back from that walk just makes me, even though it's been a long, maybe stressful day with work, I, I leave the house around 6:30, get back around 7:30. I just feel better. I feel like I've put a nice little gift for myself on the end of the day.

• 32:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. I've talked to you on one of those walks. So I know, know that it happens. I enjoy those same walks. In fact, I do want to talk to you a bit about barefoot shoes, minimalist footwear, somewhere on page three here. Jim, I want to send you a copy of Born to Walk. I mean, you're the perfect person to get a copy of this book. So we'll send you a copy of Born to Walk. Anyone else who wants to check it out, we'll put a link to it in the show notes as well. Before we get back to our callers, let's walk through the question of the week this week. Do a bit of a pivot here. And I've really been looking forward to talking about this. The question of the week this week is, if you woke up tomorrow ultra wealthy, in what ways would you still be a minimalist? Now I do want to hear from Mark, but let's check in with our Patreon community chat first. Joy said,

• 32:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  if I became rich overnight, I'd live near a national forest or park, more open space, gardens and community spaces. When stuff is easy to buy and money is endless, the need for those possessions disappears. Mark, you've accumulated considerable wealth later in life. Has having more money reinforced your minimalist tendencies or has it challenged them in some way?

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's a nuanced question. It certainly has caused me to rethink what, what wealth means and what opulence is and what maybe constitutes grotesque spending for no purpose other than you can. You know, one of the things I've always said, and I, when I had no money, which was for a long time, I mean, I was basically homeless when I met my wife. So, and then, and then I worked for a couple of years. And then when I started my company, I had, I left a job that paid enough to pay the bills and I, I started a company with no money in the bank, nothing saved. I had to borrow some money from my, my, my mother's

• 33:59Speaker 02

  husband to get the, the business started. So I, I know, and my kids watched me grow that from nothing to something substantial. But the, my point is, what's my life like today? I drink the same cup of coffee every morning. I do the same New York Times puzzles every morning. I, I do the same sort of workout in the same gym. I wear the same, literally the same shorts I've worn for 20 years and, and shirt. I, I derive the same amount of pleasure from a hike that I, I would get when I was in my twenties, that I do not,

• 34:39Speaker 02

  no, no more or less. I love my kids just as much as I did when I had no money. I, I enjoy food the same way as when I had no money. I don't, I don't aspire to have, you know, a gustatory overdose of, you know, food when I'm dining out. So, but the point is so much of my life has, none of the behaviors have changed really as a result of that. The only thing that changes is, you know, the square footage of the, of the place you live in or the means of transportation to get from point A to point B. But what the things that really make life valuable, they all stay the same. The things that make us

• 35:24Speaker 02

  enjoy the small moments. Like for me, I get a just, I get a kick out of going through all of my mental, my puzzles, which I spend about a half an hour on every morning before I start the day. I get the same hit that, that I've always gotten from completing this and going on to the next one. I get the same, you know, dopamine hit from a hard workout. I'm 73 years old now and I go, once in a while I go to, to the, to the field that I do, actual running sprints. And there are, there are days when the euphoria from that is just like, how come the rest of the world doesn't get a chance to experience what it's like to feel so powerful that you just at, at, at an advanced age were able to kick

• 36:06Speaker 02

  some ass outrunning 10 and 12 year old kids on a grassy field.

• 36:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  So, so much of, and this is my biggest fear about where we're headed in the next five or 10 years with AI and everything being done for us is we're gonna lose those small bits of humanity that make us feel, that make us actually viscerally feel and, and, and, and benefit from the small things that we do that have nothing to do with a wealth overlay.

• 36:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 04

  That's very interesting. First of all, you're telling me that when you go for a hike, there's no first class experience? You can pay extra money for, no, but the AI thing is very interesting because we essentially can now outsource labor that it would previously have required great wealth for. You would, you would need a considerable amount of resources to have another human being make a dedicated effort to check all your emails, reply to them, pay your bills. And we're moving very quickly to a lot of the sort of like mundane internship, secretarial administrative task being outsourcable.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, another thing that just arose for me was, you know, outsourcing your food shopping, you know, having Uber Eats or having, you know, one of the Amazon, I shop at Amazon. I go to Amazon, Amazon. I go to Whole Foods twice a week to shop for my food. And I like to, I like to pick the, you know, the fruit and I like to

• 37:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm the same.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  Feel the avocados. And I don't need to do that. I, I can afford to have people do that for me. But that's one of my favorite little things to do. You know, I used to work, I used to work on, back when I was a kid, we, we, we worked on our own cars. You know, you, you knew how to change a carburetor.

• 37:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I could change my own oil back in the nineties.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  Does that hurt when you guys say that? Back in the nineties, back when I was a kid? I felt the pain.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Back in the sixties, when I started driving.

• 38:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, the, the thing that I, I wrote down here is the richest person in the room isn't the one who can afford everything, but the one who needs nothing. I think about Diogenes when he's just sort of there eating lentils and Aristipas comes up one day and says, hey, you know, if you learned to be subservient to the king, you wouldn't need to subside on lentils. And Diogenes looks up at Aristipas and said, if you learn to live on lentils, you wouldn't have to be subservient to the king. And I think we're so subservient to the kings that if I got more wealth, I'd be even better lead, better subservient to the king. I'd be a better servant to the king as opposed

• 38:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to, well, hey, maybe I, what you did pick up there is a, is a type of freedom and I'm not against wealth at all. I am against overconsumption for any of us, but in poverty, we see a lot of overconsumption. I know, because I grew up really poor and I was obese as a kid. That, that has to do with overconsumption, overconsumption of the things that are actually unhealthy. Nori said, becoming suddenly wealthy would give me the freedom to let go of all the things I keep in hopes of, of selling them one day. Also knowing I could easily afford to replace these items as needed would help me let go of even more things. Becoming suddenly wealthy would eliminate the scarcity mindset that is an obstacle

• 39:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  for letting go. TK, what can you tell Nori to assure her that the freedom is already in her, not in her things? Also, isn't it possible for a rich person to cling to a scarcity mindset as well?

• 39:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, the latter is definitely true. There's nothing about fear that has a monopoly on the poor. Many wealthy people will tell you that, hey, I can't buy my way out of anxiety, it seems. There are so many complex factors and it's sort of like Macbeth, right? I get the crown, but now my focus shifts to holding on to the crown, not losing the crown. You know, I've actually coached people who know what it's like to grow up really poor. They work hard to get wealth and they feel like they have to hang on to things they don't need because it's almost a loyalty to the version of themselves that couldn't afford that and that feels bound to it. So that's definitely a thing. But since I'm not wealthy, I'll let the wealthy man talk more about that part of things.

• 40:30Speaker 04

  But as far as Nori goes, you know, one of the values of thinking about hypothetical questions is that they can put us in touch with what we really want in a way that feels safe. Because if I just ask you directly, you know, what do you want the most? You're kind of blocked by things like, well, it's not possible, I'm not fair, it's not fair to ask for. But if you say, well, if you live on Mars, you know, or whatever it may be, then it allows you to open up and say, well, this would be my ideal. And then, once you identify that, you might be able to find ways to sort of retain or live out the spirit of the ideal without necessarily having the conditions defined in the hypothetical. And so, when we look at something like this case here, okay, what would wealth free you to do? It would free me to let go of some of these things that I don't want without feeling like

• 41:14Speaker 04

  I gotta hold on to them because of the capacity to make money. Well, all right, well, there's some other ways to think about what has you wealthier. One of those things is putting yourself in an energetic place or state that allows you to be more creative. Sometimes it's more economically profitable to do the thing that makes you less money because it puts you in an energetic state where you're able to think more clearly, you're able to build relationships, and you're able to tap into your creativity in a way that over the long run will make you wealthier. And so, if you've got a bunch of clutter in your home and it's bogging you down, making you complain all the time about the people on Facebook Marketplace, asking you goofy questions, making you upset that people are standing you up, it might be worth putting

• 41:58Speaker 04

  some boundaries on that and saying, how might it be economically profitable for me to let this go in exchange for getting the kind of energy that will allow me to be able to do things that would be more profitable than what I get from those possessions? Does that make sense? Do you agree with that?

• 42:13Speaker 02

  No, totally. I think there's a mindset, first of all, depending on your background, and I grew up in a small fishing village in Maine, you know, as the saying goes, we were poor and we didn't know it.

• 42:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Same.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, you know, I have a real puritan work ethic and one that wants to hold on to stuff that has a real appreciation for the value of money.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  And I was telling Joshua earlier on a phone call, one of my new metrics is in considering a purchase or when I'm going through my closet and looking to declutter, for instance, something happened to my daughter a year and a half ago, her house burned in the Palisades here. She lost everything in it. Like, she literally had to go to Target the next day and buy toothpaste and underwear and the whole thing. She lost, she got her passport and her kids and that was it. And so, it changed her perspective on things a lot and it changed mine. And as I go through my closet, I'm like, okay, if I lost this in a fire, would I buy it again? And it becomes really easy to get rid of stuff that way, you know, just to, what's

• 43:22Speaker 02

  really essential here in keeping stuff that I otherwise would have held on to because I might wear it one day or I might, you know, have use for it one day. But it goes back to the, in the 60s and 70s, every household had that one kitchen drawer that had everything in it from used batteries to, you know, knives and to bolts and screws that didn't match.

• 43:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Tape.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  All that stuff. And you didn't want to throw it away because you might, you might need it one day, you know?

• 43:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And now, we have whole houses full of those same sort of just in case, or storage lockers on the edge of town.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  Oh, jeez.

• 44:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it's possible that more money can buy you more freedom and you've exhibited that, but it can also buy you the things that sort of require your attention, the things that take away from your freedom, strip you of your freedoms by acquiring the wrong things. Let's do one more here from Wendy. Wendy said, if I woke up wealthy tomorrow, I wouldn't go overboard on new furniture or decor, no knickknacks for me, she says, and I'd still buy practical cars. Well, Wendy, you're speaking my language. If I became a billionaire tomorrow, I think I'd still drive my 12-year-old Toyota 4Runner and I wouldn't buy a single new knickknack.

• 44:37Speaker 04

  Man, that's good for you guys. That's good for you guys. I love that about y'all.

• 44:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What kind of knickknacks are you buying?

• 44:44Speaker 02

  What kind of car are you buying?

• 44:46Speaker 04

  Oh, man, you know, well, when I was a kid, I had this red Ford Mustang convertible, you know, the little cars? And I was sold on that, like, before I knew it was expensive, I was sold on it. So whenever I see it, I can smell a Mustang. Whenever one is around, my spidey senses tingle, I'm like, there it is. So that's my car, man, Ford Mustang convertible.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  64 and a half?

• 45:08Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 45:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, that brings me up my pithy answer here. My minimal maxim is the ability to have more doesn't create the need for more. I think, because I grew up with that same scarcity mindset and I understood that we don't have enough money right now. I think the reason we're so unhappy growing up is because we didn't have enough money. And so, I got more money, I thought now I needed more stuff and I did. We lived below the poverty line for a long time. And, but then, when I got to enough, but then I started making more money, I was spending toward the next paycheck and it was still about more and more and more.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  One more zero.

• 45:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes. That's what will make me happy.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  That's all I need is one more zero.

• 45:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's right. How about you listeners? If you woke up tomorrow ultra wealthy, in what way would you still be a minimalist? Let us know your thoughts in the comment. All right, you got my maxim TK. By the way, you can find this episode's maxims in the show notes, all seven of them, over at theminimalists.com/podcast. You can find Mark's book there as well. You can also find every minimal maxim ever, over a thousand of them at this point, at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox every Monday for free if you sign up for the simple newsletter at theminimalists.com. It is free, we'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we'll start your week off with a dose of simplicity. All right, give me something pithy TK.

• 46:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If you woke up tomorrow ultra wealthy, in what ways would you still be a minimalist?

• 46:37Speaker 04

  All right, my something pithy is wealth is having fewer distractions, not more possessions. I think the power of money is that it removes or alleviates irritants. Money is so good for that. And I think many of the things that we rely on material possessions to compensate for, it's about escaping the irritants. So, one way I experienced this is when my wife and I moved from LA to Charleston, South Carolina, with no change in income, we immediately became rich, right? Because everywhere you go, there's parking, you can, you know, get a lot of space, you know? And so, we lived in a place that was just really nice and we were paying like one-third of what we paid for living in LA. And whenever we traveled, the hardest part about traveling was having to stay in a hotel

• 47:21Speaker 04

  that just couldn't compare with where we lived. We never experienced that when we lived in LA. The best part about traveling was being able to stay someplace nice, right? And so, a big part of why we want more, I mean, Seth Godin says, instead of working so hard to plan your next vacation, try creating a life that you don't feel the need to escape from. So much of what we're reaching for on the shelf, so much of what we're dreaming for when we imagine having a million dollars, it's really an escape from the irritants that nag our lives. And I think we don't need as much when we get to a point where we say, you know, I'm not so frustrated with what I'm coming home to. I'm not so frustrated. I don't drive my car in fear that it's going to stop on me.

• 48:01Speaker 04

  I'm not able to, I don't have to tell my family and friends, I can't talk to you because I'm working all the time, or I can't meet you for coffee because I'm ashamed that I won't even be able to buy a cup. So many things we don't do because of those irritants that money could alleviate.

• 48:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, spot on. We've got so much more to talk about. It's almost the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers, but first, real quick for our right here, right now segment, let's talk about two things going on in the life of the minimalist. First off, the How to Let Go Tour starts this weekend in Seattle and Vancouver, then New York City next month. There's still a few tickets left. Reserve your seat at theminimalists.com and hit me up on IG if you have any local coffee recommendations or really good seafood in any of those cities. Love to see you there during the How to Let Go Tour. Theminimalists.com to grab your tickets. Also, today, the day we're recording this, is my brother Jerome's 46th birthday. My brother passed earlier this year, really unexpectedly, just didn't wake up one day.

• 49:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it was super unexpected. He has a wife and three kids, his oldest daughter is college age, but he has a one-year-old son and an eight-year-old daughter. His daughter, Elizabeth, just started third grade just last week and his son is getting ready to turn two not too long and his daughter is about to graduate from nursing school. And just one day, he didn't wake up at age 45, is a year older than me. And it just turned our whole world upside down, obviously the kids especially. And so, I just wanted to recognize that today was his birthday. Just last week, I got a picture, we got the headstone for his plot and it somehow made it more real.

• 49:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There was this, like, oh, wow, I'm still letting go of this four months later. It grounded it in a way and I saw, it was really simple, just a black headstone, had his name on it, date of the year of birth, year of death, and there's a little dash between, there's a whole life in that dash. And he was just an amazing man and I wanted to thank everyone who helped contribute. We set up a GoFundMe for him earlier this year for his family, really, to help his whole family out during these, they're just navigating some pretty trying times right now. So, if you want to contribute to that, to celebrate his birthday, you can, just head on over to theminimalists.com/jerome.

• 50:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I wrote an essay about his passing and who he was as a human and longtime listeners have known a lot about Jerome, I've talked to him a lot, about him a lot while he was still alive over the years. And just thank you to everyone who contributed to that GoFundMe. I think we're 68% of our way toward our goal there. So, shout out to everyone who has contributed. Thank you so much. Lots more coming up on page two and page three, but first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 50:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that is the first 33% of episode 555. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two-hour maximal episode with Mark Sisson, which includes answers to a bunch more questions like, "What's the first thing TK and Mark would buy if they won the lottery today?" Also, "What do you wish you would have known about minimalism at age 20?" And we'll review a few couples who are having some tense standoffs over their household clutter. That's a pretty funny one. Plus, a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes on Apple, Spotify, or your

• 51:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to our very first episode. Big thanks to Mark Sisson for joining us today. You can check out his minimalist barefoot shoe company. We did a deep dive into this during the Added Value segment. I would just say this, spoiler alert, I was pleasantly surprised. I was ready to not enjoy these at all.

• 52:01Speaker 04

  Ready to not enjoy?

• 52:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  They're my favorite, my new favorite walking shoe now, but I don't have any affiliation with them. I have no promo code to give you, no affiliate link. I just really, really enjoy these shoes. We talk about that on Page 3. Also, his book, Born to Walk, you can check that out. We'll put links to paluva.com and the Born to Walk book in the show notes. You can also follow Mark on Instagram. Find that link in the show notes as well. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, special guest Beulah is on the couch today as well, and Stabby D is on the board, and the rest of our team. I'm Joshua Fields Milburn.

• 52:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If you leave here today with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.