#1503 Eric Semler | Bitcoin Is Taking OVER Corporate America

Eric Semler is the Chairman of Semler Scientific, Founder of TCS Capital Management, and serves on the board of Fundstrat Global Advisors. This conversation was recorded at Bitcoin Investor Week in New York. In this conversation we talk about why Semler Scientific put bitcoin on the balance sheet, feedback from customers and shareholders, challenges, thinking through leverage percentage, potential market reaction if companies start to sell bitcoin, and more. =======================Reed Smith is a dynamic international law firm dedicated to helping clients move their businesses forward. With an inclusive culture and innovative mindset, Reed Smith delivers smarter, more creative legal services that drive better outcomes for their clients. Their deep industry knowledge, long-standing relationships and collaborative structure make them the go-to partner for complex disputes, transactions, and regulatory matters. Learn more at www.reedsmith.com=======================Bitwise is one of the largest and fastest-growing crypto asset managers. As of December 31, 2021, the company managed over $1.3 billion across an expanding suite of investment solutions, which include the world's largest crypto index fund and other innovative products spanning Bitcoin, Ethereum, DeFi, and crypto equities. Whether you’re an individual, advisor, or institution, Bitwise provides intelligent access to crypto with your unique circumstances in mind. Visit www.bitwiseinvestments.com to learn more. Certain of the Bitwise investment products may be subject to the extreme risks associated with investing in crypto assets. Visit www.bitwiseinvestments.com/disclosures/ to learn more.=======================BitcoinOS is bringing Bitcoin into a new era. For the first time, Bitcoiners can access real DeFi across the entire crypto ecosystem, powered by revolutionary zero-knowledge technology. No more trusting sketchy bridges or giving up security. BitcoinOS reunites all of crypto around the chain where it all began. Follow BitcoinOS on twitter @BTC_OS and Be early to Bitcoin again.=======================Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/=======================View 10k+ open startup jobs:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 0:54Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:24Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Again, that's @BTC underscore OS, and be early to Bitcoin again. Everyone now is waking up to this idea of putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet. Most of the companies, I think Simon said, hey, look, we had this company, went through this hard time during COVID, and so we had to figure something else out. I think that strategy and many others, they didn't have kind of a core business that was working and was exciting, and so it came out of a position of needing to do something different. You may be a little bit different, right? In terms of why you did this and how the business is set up. So tell us the story of similar, and then also, why did you put Bitcoin on the balance sheet, given the business that you have that's non-Bitcoin?

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say it was kind of the last thing we ever expected to do. We were a relatively small board. Our board owned over thirty percent of the stock, the shares. I had not been involved in the company for a long time. I was one of the initial investors in it. And it had been around for twenty years. Before I got involved, it was a public company for ten years. And I was kind of spending my time as, you know, I ran a hedge fund for almost twenty years and still doing that as a family office. So it was, it was something I got involved in because I had become more of an activist as an investor and I noticed that Semler Scientific was kind of faltering and needed

• 5:15Speaker 02

  help and needed more of a focus on maximizing shareholder value, which is something that I feel like I'm, I'm good at doing. So I made a, I made a pitch to the board to put me on the board and brought on another shareholder and eventually became chairman of the board, this is like two years ago. And when we first, when I first got there, the total focus was on doing acquisitions in medical, in the medical area. We're a medical device and software business. So we spent about a year just grinding through so many deals, private deals mostly, looking at companies that might be accretive, you know, for us to buy. And it was really a black box. There was just very little to do and we were spinning our wheels.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  And as this was happening, I followed Bitcoin closely. I've been an investor in it and was an investor in MicroStrategy and was listening, like Simon, just listening to Michael Saylor very closely. And when I heard him talk about these zombie companies, I kind of thought about, you know, God, is he talking to me? Like, it just resonated. It was so like, I felt like we were MicroStrategy, the way he described it in August of 2020. We were, half our market cap was in cash. And we were making money. We had about, we were making about twenty, twenty million dollars plus a year in our business and it was slowing.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Down a lot and and we were looking for a way to restart growth and I just I don't know. I guess it's like Simon, I just listened to too many of his podcasts and I went to our board and I said, you guys got to listen to this guy. I think he might have a solution for us. And I was shocked because none of them owned Bitcoin. They weren't following it that closely. But it I was they were able to kind of get it and saw the saw the kind of the value in value creation opportunity. So I I I didn't know Michael Saylor. And I tried to reach him through Tom Lee, who's a close friend of mine from Fundstrat. And I'm on the board of Fundstrat. So Tom put me in touch with Michael. Michael called me like instantly.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  He like it was like immediate. And at that point, there hadn't been any public companies other than MicroStrategy that were pursuing his strategy. And he explained it to me. It was incredibly generous and, you know, helpful. And we ended up being the second, you know, US public company to to to adopt a Bitcoin primary reserve strategy. Actually, very similar. It was almost coincidental with Metaplanet. We were kind of reached this conclusion totally separately around the same time.

• 7:54Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think of putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet, most people will say, well, that's a good economic decision. But because you have an operating business that's profitable, that is separate from Bitcoin, a lot of Bitcoiners know about you now. And there's a lot of Bitcoiners that work in a lot of different businesses. Or they buy products, right? They buy medical products. They use medical software. Have you seen a lift in the operating business because of the notoriety of putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet?

• 8:18Speaker 02

  No, actually, it surprises me. We our customers are huge companies, huge that you've all heard of in this room. And it has not come up at all. And interestingly, we we had some shareholders kind of, you know, scratching their head a little bit when we announced the strategy. But the stock did so well that we really didn't get any negative feedback either, you know, from our from from customers or from shareholders. I would say that it's it's kind of been pretty siloed. And which I think is great in a way. I mean, it'd be great to get Lift from it. I mean, we're starting to think a lot about how the two concepts are intersect.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Like we, what we do, uh, we, we, we, we help people, uh, avoid getting very serious cardiovascular diseases, vascular diseases. In some way, we're providing, you know, medical freedom. And by owning Bitcoin, we're, you know, we, we're exercising financial freedom. So there's kind of this, um, cross, you know, crossover between the two that we ourselves as a company kind of, you know, view what we're doing. We're kind of, we were kind of, we kind of want to live by the slogan of medical and monetary freedom. Uh, maybe sounds a little bit, you know, a little bit out there, but I think in some ways it's kind of what we're doing. You know, we're, we're, we're kind of, we're promoting medical and monetary freedom.

• 9:41Anthony Pompliano?

  When you go and you take a look at how this has played out so far, again, you guys continue to acquire more and more Bitcoin as you're going. Um, what is the tools that you have figured out that are best for you guys? Each company is different, right? You guys had cash, you've got the profit, uh, profitability. Are you just selling equity? Are you using, uh, convertible notes? Like walk us through maybe that the, the, you know, how the sausage is made of getting the capital to buy the Bitcoin.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Definitely. You know, it's probably, I, just as a preface to that, I, I, I follow the stock market extremely closely. I have for, you know, 25 years and I, people are so cynical about what we're doing. What they, this idea of a Bitcoin treasury strategy right now, it's, and you can see it in the performance of the stocks. It, it, it doesn't make sense to a lot of traditional, uh, players in the market. And, and so, um, what it, what I'm, what, how we're thinking about it is, is kind of, we're, we're really differentiated. Microstrata is fantastic. Meta plan is fantastic. The rest of the companies that have adopted treasury strategies, I'm, I'm not sure. I don't know them well enough and they seem relatively small.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  And I'm not sure that they are, um, you know, fully on board. I don't, I, I just don't know enough. But from our standpoint, what we're trying to do is accumulate as much Bitcoin. As we can. We're the 10th largest corporate holder of Bitcoin now. We have, up until a few days ago, we had over 300 million of Bitcoin on our balance sheet and

• 11:10Anthony Pompliano?

  What happened?

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, what happened. This is, this is great though. I mean, I, for, for us, I hope. I know, I know it's painful in the short term, but this happened to us when we, um, first started. We, we, we shot our wad. We bought 60 million of Bitcoin, like out of the gate as soon as the SEC finally approved us and Bitcoin dropped 25% like instantly because of the Mount Gock announcement of the distribution, but we, you know, we had no idea it was coming and then boom. And so it really tested our conviction and thankfully our board, you know, who was new to this was all in and we just kept buying. So now we're at 300 million. We've done it kind of a third through ATMs, you know, selling our shares to buy Bitcoin.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  We've also done it through a convert. We did a hundred million dollar convert, which was really well received. And then we've done a hundred million almost in operating cash flow. So it's kind of a, a combination of those. And what we're really trying to be is a huge holder of Bitcoin over time, a huge corporate holder. And also we want to be kind of a great dual pronged story of, you know, a good medical story and a good Bitcoin accumulation story.

• 12:20Anthony Pompliano?

  What are the challenges with doing this? You know, everyone will say, hey, I put Bitcoin on my balance sheet. My stock price went up. I look like a genius. This is awesome. Everyone go do it. It doesn't come without obstacles, friction, challenges. What would you say are those things that you've discovered along the way?

• 12:37Speaker 02

  It was actually really hard to do at first. I mean, first of all, the SEC was a different SEC and they, they were just busting our balls. You know, it was tough. They were just coming back and forth questions and really delayed stuff for us. It was very frustrating. I think we're probably hopefully past that, you know, experience for new companies. And I think that, I think that there's a lot of accounting and legal stuff. It's a public company that you have to deal with. I'm happy to help anyone who wants that kind of help, but it's, it's, it's laborious and it takes a few months to kind of Get through all of that and it's costly and it's expensive. I think that, I think though that there is definitely a psychological barrier.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  You know, it's public companies, most boards aren't going to do this. I'm pretty cynical about larger companies doing this.

• 13:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 13:27Speaker 02

  I just think that it's, it's very tough for most of these larger companies. Their boards are older people who are looking to just maintain the status quo. They don't want to rock the boat. They don't have that much skin in the game. It's a huge risk from their standpoint. There's, you know, obviously with the volatility we've seen right now, they're less inclined to do so, I would think. And, and I think that you're gonna need, you're gonna need a real contrarian leader in one of these companies, especially a company that has like voting, where there's, you know, tight voting control. A company like Zoom Communications, I talked about recently in a tweet. Like Zoom's a $25 billion company.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  It has $8 billion of net cash. It's controlled by one guy, the founder. Their business is just flatlining. Their stock has been a horrible performer over several years. And they're not doing much about returning capital to shareholders. They really don't have a great growth future. They, they're a great example of a company that should do it. And they have a guy who's a technology savvy guy, is the founder of their business, who could make that decision almost single-handedly with his board. You need to find situations like that. And if Zoom Communications decided to go do this, it's huge. I mean, they could get, they could accumulate billions of dollars of Bitcoin pretty quickly.

• 14:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think that in those situations, even though they have all the construction, infrastructure and cash, all the things that you would need to execute this, they got a product that is working just well enough? Where it's kind of the classic like innovator's dilemma? If the product was worse, that would actually mean it'd be easier to do it. But because it's working, you kind of are like, ah, we should keep investing here?

• 15:10Speaker 02

  I think that's true. I think that, I think that's why it's gonna, that's probably another reason why these things just take time. But they're probably closer to it than others in, in the sense that. They can see the writing on the wall. They've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall to try to jumpstart growth. They've invested a lot of money that's kind of gotten no return. So, you know, maybe maybe it's too premature to talk about them that way, but it's absolutely right. You do need a business that is kind of clearly, you know, not, they've given up hope.

• 15:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's talk about leverage. You all, I think, are more than two times from a leverage equity kind of ratio than MicroStrategy. I think you guys are 22, 23%. I think they're closer like eight or nine. I don't know about MetaPlanet, but talk about how you think of that leverage percentage and is higher better, is lower better, and kind of what the pros and cons are.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's also a really important difference between us, MetaPlanet, and MicroStrategy. For better or worse, we are much more levered. And so when people want to talk about a premium, what should we trade at a premium? If you believe in the upside of Bitcoin, then yeah, we should. We should. We're a levered play on Bitcoin, you know, and MicroStrategy is levered, but not nearly, you know, not nearly the extent we are. And same with MetaPlanet, they have small amounts of leverage, but they don't, it's not long term. They're, they're not really a levered business. And so I think that that is another distinction. We're kind of this dual-pronged story of medical and Bitcoin. Plus, we are, I think, you know, a legitimately levered business on Bitcoin. It's, we have a

• 16:46Speaker 02

  hundred million dollar convert, which we treat as debt, and we have market cap in the 400 million dollar range.

• 16:53Anthony Pompliano?

  When I think of this whole, you know, kind of world, the biggest question that I get from people, what is your average cost of Bitcoin?

• 17:06Speaker 02

  It's in the 80s.

• 17:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so let's just say 85. For hypothetical situations, call it 85,000.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:12Anthony Pompliano?

  If... Bitcoin's price falls below that $85,000 mark. What happens and how do you think about what you need to do or not do? Once you get the Bitcoin price below kind of the average cost of a Bitcoin treasury company?

• 17:26Speaker 02

  We buy more. We just hopefully get aggressive and buy more. That's that's my hope. But in terms of our debt, our debt's, you know, five and a half years. It's due in five and a half years. There's no put that they can't be put back to us before that. So we have until like 2030 to pay off our debt. So it's not something I'm concerned about.

• 17:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, if you take that a step further, at lunch recently, somebody said, well, let's, you know, take it to the extreme. And they said, okay, your Bitcoin goes below that average, you know, price. Shareholders see that. And whether they're sophisticated or not, they say, ah, that looks bad. And they start to sell down your stock. If your stock market cap begins to collapse, now all of a sudden that leverage percentage goes up. Is there like a doomsday scenario? Or is there something where you said, hey, if I look at this, this is the thing that, you know, would be the the kind of biggest issue we could possibly face in a downside kind of crisis situation?

• 18:22Speaker 02

  No, zero. I think in some way, I mean, Saylor talks about permanent capital. We don't have permanent capital, but our debt is, you know, five and a half years out. We don't have any short term, any short term issues with our debt or interest. We have cover that through our operating cash and through cash on our balance sheet. So no, but it's interesting. I mean, I remember those days as an investor, you know, when my strategy faced these days. So, you know, I'm very aware of how investors think and, you know, what types of scenarios they could throw out there. But, you know, I being on the other side now, I really don't have any concerns. I don't mind it. You know, if I, I obviously want our stock to go up every day. But I am a long term holder.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  I've owned this, I've owned this shares in this company for 20 years. And so I hope to own them for a longer. And I don't have any, any real concerns about short term stuff like that. I think it's going to end up working out for us. We also own, you know, close to $300 million of Bitcoin. That's got to be worth something, right? So.

• 19:25Anthony Pompliano?

  When you see this playing out, is there a world where you are price sensitive to buying? So as Bitcoin is volatile, is that 109,000, it goes to 85, it's back to 90? Are you all sitting there and you've got a model and you're like, okay, we should wait a day? Or do you have a secret technical analyst sitting somewhere and you're like, ah, you know, it's going to drop 10%, let's wait?

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Or are you basically just saying, hey, every second we get our hands on cash, we're just buying and we're not sensitive whatsoever to that price?

• 19:52Speaker 02

  I think, I think we're kidding ourselves if we're not sensitive to that. I mean, I think a lot of people say, no, you can buy it at any price. I don't, I don't necessarily agree with that. I think that it's great at any price, but I'm not going to necessarily buy it at any price. So I would be, I would try to be a little more crafty about it than that. I wish we had been more craftier, but you can't always control that. You know, when you, when, unfortunately, when we've had cash available, Bitcoin has kind of near its peaks, you know, it's, it just, it's the way it's worked so far. But I think you have to decide, you know, am I going to buy it over a day, two days, a week, three weeks, a month? You know, there is definitely pressure from the Bitcoin community to, you know, go out there and buy it all at once.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  And, you know, that's, I, I respect that, but I also think you need to be reasonable and you need to be methodical. And so I would say that you just got to use common sense, you know? And, and if you, if you do, if, if our board or whoever's doing this feels like there's something to be worried about and we should wait a little longer, then we should wait.

• 20:57Anthony Pompliano?

  What happens if you sell Bitcoin, Meta Planet sells Bitcoin, or Strategy sells Bitcoin? I think a big part of why people are interested in this is they're basically like, these are, you know, diamond hand companies, they're only buying Bitcoin. It's like they have no sell button.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:13Anthony Pompliano?

  But for some reason, either you change your mind, you have to sell, you know, something, whatever the thing could be. But these companies sell even one Bitcoin.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:23Anthony Pompliano?

  It kind of violates the whole narrative of long only, never sell. What do you think the market kind of reaction to that would be?

• 21:29Speaker 02

  I think they'd puke. Yeah, I think the market would puke. I would puke.

• 21:34Anthony Pompliano?

  No one said Eric's not honest.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  So, no, absolutely. I don't, I think no one has that expectation that we're going to sell any Bitcoin. I think they expect us to buy more Bitcoin. I think that for us, the reason we wouldn't sell it, truthfully, is that we think Bitcoin is worth at least the price, the value of gold. I mean, it's pretty simple, right? Like, if you think that Bitcoin is worth probably more than gold because it's digital and other factors, then it should, then it's got 10 times or more upside now, right? So like, why would you, why would you sell it? It's got so much upside and you don't have to sell it. Why wouldn't you just buy more? And so that's, that's how I think about it. It's very simple. And

• 22:17Speaker 02

  I think that that is such a powerful concept. It's so simple, but that's what gets a lot of CEOs potentially interested because they always say, I can't value it, it has no cash flow. But there's a really good, there's a really good valuation disparity that you can take advantage of. And I think that's why it's such a great investment. So people say, oh, they're just copying MicroStrategy, or they're, they're playing a financial game or whatever. It's bullshit. I just believe in the value of Bitcoin. I want to own a lot of it because I think there's tremendous upside in it. And if they're not going to give us a premium for that, I don't care. I'm going to make a lot of money owning Bitcoin. So I just love the valuation story, and I love the fact that it's becoming more institutionalized.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  And so that's, that's kind of where I stand on it.

• 23:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk a little bit operationally, very quickly. How many people are working on the Bitcoin strategy versus the rest of the company? And, you know, is it like, hey, we need three people and that's it? And we can do this forever at any, you know, amount? Or is there like, hey, for every billion dollars, we think we need another person on payroll? Or how do you think about, you know, kind of operational support?

• 23:22Speaker 02

  That's a good question. We don't have that many people working on it. You know, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty easy to do with just a few people. We're lucky. We have a great CFO. She, Renee Cormier, has just been amazing, and she's very sophisticated and is good at modeling. And we definitely have models, we can go back earlier, but we do have kind of a model of where we want to, of ratios of how we think about buying Bitcoin. Relative to where our stock's trading. So she manages that for us. And we do a lot of math and a lot of modeling around it. But we don't, we don't need a lot of people. I'm interested though, like as it becomes, as I don't know where Bitcoin's going from a, you know, a financing standpoint, as we maybe we get into preferreds and we get into other,

• 24:05Speaker 02

  you know, areas of capital raising, it may require, you know, more people. We may need, we don't have a PR firm, we don't have a marketing machine or anything, you know, we're not, we haven't had to really do that for our medical business. Maybe at some point it requires that, but I, right now, we don't have any plans to expand.

• 24:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Ladies and gentlemen, Eric Semler.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Thank you.