The Power Broker Breakdown Wrap-Up

Join Roman and Elliott one last time as they reflect on their journey with you all through "The Power Broker," exploring their favorite moments and answering listener questions in this bonus episode.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Roman Mars?

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• 1:08Roman Mars?

  This is a special bonus episode of the 99% Invisible Breakdown of The Power Broker. I'm Roman Mars.

• 1:15Roman Mars?

  So a few weeks back, Elliot and I held our final Power Broker event. It was an AMA on our Discord server where we shared our final thoughts about the book and our thoughts about this whole experience. And we took questions from listeners. It was a ton of fun, but we know a lot of you couldn't make it. So as promised, here is a recording of the event.

• 1:36Roman Mars?

  One of the questions that we want to start with was just about like our impressions of the book. We've each read it three times. And so Elliot, now that you've read it three times, what is your favorite part of Power Broker?

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Now that I've read it three times and now that I'm back on my mic after telling a six-year-old, no, he cannot play Xbox right now, which is why my mic was turned off briefly. I think my favorite part, I don't know, like I love that Al Smith biography section so much.

• 2:03Roman Mars?

  Yeah.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Just going through his, his life. It's so, it's so exciting. It's a story that until I read The Power Broker, I was really truly unaware of, of like just what, what an amazing personality and amazing history that guy had. But reading it this third, this third time through, I feel like there were. Parts of it I was picking up on before that I hadn't before, and I think it's any time when Robert Caro's personal kind of like feelings and interests come through, not just the part where he's writing in italics, you know, "They could have done it better." You know, "This was the wrong choice." But instead, how clearly he feels an admiration for some of the characters in the book, and how clearly he does not feel admiration for some of the other people in the book. Like, I don't think I fully picked up on the dislike of John Lindsay.

• 2:49Roman Mars?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  It was very funny to me on the third time through. But what about you, Roman? Are there parts, after this multiple readings, what are your favorite parts now?

• 2:56Roman Mars?

  I think the end is more fun for me than previous. And I think mainly has to do with my state of mind when I was reading it, like-

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Because you're like, "I've read this book three times now, finally at the end."

• 3:08Roman Mars?

  No, actually, almost the opposite. Whereas, when I'd read it the first time, I was really like, ready for it to be over. Like, I just like making progress. And so, I didn't sort of really take a lot of pleasure in, you know, the different young reporters who were taking him on, the Lindsay part, you know, like, I was just looking for plot details of his fall, and not sort of relishing the details of it. And so, I think I've had more fun with that part in this read, and in our discussion. Like, I don't know if I've fully even put together all the details of the Rockefeller, you know, deal and stuff like that. Like, I just kind of read it too quickly. And so, that sort of phase of the fall, when

• 3:52Roman Mars?

  you can see that the end is almost coming, and you really, just from your sense of accomplishment, not because you're bored, but just, you just want to keep going, I think I breezed through them, through that part, and didn't have as much fun with it. But this time, that really stood out to me more.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  I probably had a similar reaction, but that was so mixed in with my melancholy about us getting towards the end of the book. It was mixed with this feeling of like, "Oh, I can't believe Rockefeller's almost accepted his resignation."

• 4:20Roman Mars?

  Yeah, I did feel, I had so much fun doing this in general, just like, working with you, Elliot, and Isabel, and everyone's reaction to the book, and really- Taking it on. It was just, it was so much fun. I, when we had our final production meeting today, I was like sad.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:37Roman Mars?

  You know, we should just like get together, like hang out. So, I mean, um, I mean, we have talked about doing, potential of doing other books and other projects. We haven't sort of solidified that stuff, but everyone is very, very busy with lots of other things. And so we want to be respectful of that and make sure that we're doing a good job and make sure that this is still fun. So, so we will see about that. Just to anticipate other questions coming up about that. Um, you know, another highlight of the series is, you know, we didn't know when we started that we were going to talk to Robert Caro or that he would, uh, want us to do this exactly.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  I thought he was gonna tell us no. I was really worried that we would have a Robert Moses relationship that he, I was worried it would be like his relationship with Moses. It was like, do not wish to be apart, do not authorize, don't do this. Like, I was worried that that would be the reaction. And it's been, I can't, it's hard to describe how gratifying it's been to been able to, to speak to him multiple times and to have him engage with us about our thoughts about this, you know, this book that he's been talking to people about for 50 years now. It was, um, you know, I've, I've talked about this before about when, when we did our live event with him, which was, which was an amazing dream come true. On the flight over to, to do it, I was writing scripts for this, for this puzzle comedy podcast that I do for a competing network that I won't bring it up here.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  But, uh, the, but I was like, I'm like, I can't believe I'm writing these like ridiculous dumb jokes. I'm gonna go talk to Robert Caro. What a, what a dream come true thing. What do you, but I know Roman, you, you found yourself really underwhelmed, why I'm, and you, and you found it a really bitter experience. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just facetious.

• 6:08Roman Mars?

  Very similarly, I was so delighted that he wanted to do it. And then when he was so thoughtful and like forthright and sort of like emotional about it, that was when I was like, oh my goodness, this is so lovely. You know, it just made me so, yeah, it just, it made me so happy. Um, and then the, you know, the, the fun part was, you know, talking to him and his recall about, um, you know, just like the breakdown of different votes on the Long Island, you know, you know, like committee.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  You're like, pardon me, it's been a long time. I don't quite remember. And then he'd know it.

• 6:47Roman Mars?

  Exactly. And so, um, yeah, it was really, really something.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  I was a little worried that he would be like, I've written other books. Like, am I talking about this again? And I think it was to see the That the pride he feels in it and also the trials he went through to that he and Aina both went through to write it, that they're still so alive in him, it was very moving to me and very special to see that like, oh, this book is still a living kind of like experience, you know.

• 7:15Roman Mars?

  That's right.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  It means so much to him as well. I feel like being a comic book and science fiction fan, I've had the experience of really investing a lot of myself into a work of art and then either meeting or reading or seeing an interview with the author and having them be like, yeah, I don't know, whatever, I toss that off, who cares? And being like, oh, it meant a lot to me. And so to see that this, this still means so much to Kara was, was really, really touched me, you know, it was very meaningful.

• 7:38Roman Mars?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. And we had a bunch of other guests on the show. And I was kind of amazed by that, like, how many people wanted to be involved, like, you know, very notable people, like AOC and Pete Buttigieg and stuff. Did you have a favorite moment from other guests?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  My, I mean, this is, this is self-serving. My favorite moment, I think, for all of them was when we had AOC on, I was so, I was just so impressed with the way she was thinking and articulating her thoughts through it. And I was like, mm, I'm gonna make her laugh at this interview. I'm gonna try, I'm gonna try. And I, and I told a joke about like, she was saying that like, all these people have come together to try to undo Robert Moses' work. And I was like, so in a way, he's a hero, and brought these people together. And that she laughed at that and that I didn't get a scowl from her. Like, I was very, I was very, that was my victory moment I'll take with me. But also talking to Mike Schur and having him and being like, I love this book. And then talking to someone who like, really loves it even or like thinks about it even more. And at a certain point in my head, I'm like, he should be, he should be doing this podcast.

• 8:37Roman Mars?

  He was another person that had just like insane recall for a book that he did not write. He just, he just knew it from reading it. Yeah, I really, I really loved talking with him and his sort of, just his full embrace of the material is really great. I, you know, for these interviews.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  What other, what other highlights did you have? Yeah?

• 8:55Roman Mars?

  Well, for these interviews, I do a lot of reading on our guests, actually. So I usually read whatever book they've written or other things that they've done. And with AOC, I'd, I'd, you know, she has a kind of, there was a biography, like a sort of compilation biography written about her, of her early days and different stuff. And, and what I was, I had most fun with was like, Reading that early stuff and re reminded of how she was exacting change in the beginning and her talking about the real politic of being in the position that she's in today and relating that to the power broker was just like revel- I was like, this is a generational talent. I was just kind of amazed by her.

• 9:38Roman Mars?

  That was just an incredible moment to sort of have that juxtaposition of where she started and where she is. She was always talented and engaging, but just seeing that and realizing, oh, we're just the beginning of her and our lives, which is a very good thing, I think, for the world.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  I think it speaks volumes that you asked me and my thing that I was most memorable was something I said and your answer was something a guest was doing. I think that just speaks a lot about us, the work we do, how we see the world.

• 10:08Roman Mars?

  Yeah, yeah. And then, I don't know, it was just the range of it that I had so much fun. Like, a lot of people are chiming in that they loved us talking to Brennan Lee Mulligan, which was my kid's favorite guest by far, you know, like, and, you know, he was really fun. And Pete Buttigieg, I've admired him forever and he's so much fun, so much fun to listen to. You know, I really, I just, it was a great time, you know, like, it was, everyone sort of came to the challenge of it and had a good time. And, you know, by the time we were getting to the end with, like, Clara Jeffrey, I think we were having a real discussion about the idea of, you know, what journalism means in the moment. And, you know, she kind of asked us questions for the first time in that way and that was kind of fun. I don't know, it was just great.

• 10:51Roman Mars?

  And Conan and David Sims, I mean, I had, you know, Jamel was so fun. Like, it was like, we, especially the early guests, we had brought them on for the, for the breakdown portion and it was a really tall order for, like, Jamel and David Sims to do that.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  It's a lot of material to digest relatively quickly and to not be as in it as we were because we were dedicated to going through the book the whole time, but they were troopers. They pulled, I mean, it's great to have them, they pulled it off.

• 11:18Roman Mars?

  Totally.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Afterwards, I remember you were like, let's be a little easier on our guests. Let's not make them do all this reading.

• 11:23Roman Mars?

  Well, the first, because the first one was AOC was the first one we didn't do that with. And it was just because we didn't have three hours with her, you know? And then, and then after that happened, we were like, this is a lot easier for them. If they don't have to comment on every aspect of the book in this section. And I ran into David Sims in New York and he was like, okay, tell me the truth. Was it because I was so bad, you know? And I was like, absolutely not, David, you were great.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  That's a very David way to think about it.

• 11:50Roman Mars?

  We were just making it easier on the, on the other folks. He was really great. I really, I mean, if there was somebody who would have wanted to come on to do that, I think we might have liked to adjust it on the fly, but it just was, it was. And we ended up having sort of more of a thesis about them and their take on it versus them commenting on, you know, like nickel barons from the 1920s, you know?

• 12:13Roman Mars?

  Let's see.

• 12:16Roman Mars?

  I don't know. Any other thoughts before we get into some more questions from folks? We have.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Something, something I do want to say before, before we get into, to other people is that, I've said it before, I'll say it again, I'll probably say it again at the end. I can't say enough what a delight and an exciting thing it was for me, Roman, when you first asked me to be involved in this at all, you know? I had been a listener of 99% visible for many years by that point. And I'm, and now I'm, I'm done with it. I don't pretend. No, I said, I still listen to it regularly. And there are some times when an opportunity kind of opens up to do something that you had not really considered doing. But once the invitation is there, you realize, oh, this is the thing I want to do more than anything else I can imagine. And then the experience lives up to your hopes about it.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  And so, working with you on this, working with Isabel, with Kathy, and with, and being able to, to talk to people we talked to and really take this time to engage and, and think about and luxuriate in this book, it's a top 10 creative experience for me, maybe even top 5. But I've got a lot, lot of light left, so I want to, and then there's still, there's still a number of years left, so I want to leave some, some wiggle room for it in the rankings, you know?

• 13:30Roman Mars?

  That's fair. That's fair. I mean, likewise, I mean, I initially, I was talking to you about it because I have been a Flophouse listener for a long time. And the way, I knew that there was something in the way that you were summarizing these things, but it was entertaining to me, even though I rarely watch the Flophouse movies. So I was like, what is the secret to making this work? Because in my initial conception of the of the piece, I would do much more of the breaking down to a to a person new to the book. That was the first kind of, that's my first idea. And it wasn't that we both had, you know, kind of equal grounding in the book. And you'd said something so smart. You were like, if I have 18 bullet

• 14:13Roman Mars?

  points, then I've done enough summarizing, like enough adjusting to that I know I've thought about it enough to move through the move through the movie, in this case, move through the summary. And I, I love it when somebody can boil something down to a number that they've been doing. And like, it feels like, oh, I don't know, I know it when I feel it kind of thing. But I, but I love it when people go, no, 18, you know, like, so.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Twenty is 20 is too much. Although I feel like you gave your real bait and switch because I was, because then, then when I did these summaries, I was like, I'm gonna go long on these ones. And I did not do as good a job of boiling them down. But there's so much more to say about this than there is that I wanted to say about any movie we've ever watched Flophouse ever. So.

• 14:54Roman Mars?

  Totally. But then, when it shifted, and I thought, oh, no, but this just makes sense. Maybe this, this, I should reconceive this. I can't believe how well it turned out. And I also can't believe how I think it would have been bad, had it, had it worked out the other way. If it wasn't the two of us and you really breaking it down and us sort of working on it together. I'm just so grateful, like, that you said yes, and you had time to do it.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  I mean, that's a little bit like, you were like, do you want to eat nothing but fried chicken for the rest of your life? And then I say, yes. And you're like, I can't believe you did it.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  There's no way. How could I say no to it?

• 15:31Roman Mars?

  But anyway, it was, it was just, it's like so much fun. And then the other part of it that was fun was like the activation of the audience and, you know, like having people be excited about it and they just got, everyone sort of got it right away, like from the guests, Robert Caro, I don't know, just everyone sort of, you know, like when you're in a show, you know, I made 99% visible for close to 15 years and,

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're kind of a podcast newbie, but that's okay. Mop House is approaching its 18th anniversary, but you know, it's, the anniversary's racking up there, yeah, sir.

• 16:06Roman Mars?

  But it's rare that, you know, Time Magazine or something pulls you out after 15 years and says, you know what the best podcast of the year is? 99% Invisible is Power Broker. Like they don't-

• 16:16Speaker 01

  It's one we've gotten used to. Yeah.

• 16:17Roman Mars?

  Yeah, exactly. They never do that. But because I think the whole idea, you know, the execution and how it was produced and then, and then everyone's reaction to it, you know, knowing that this is a book that makes sense to go through like this.

• 16:33Roman Mars?

  I just, it just really captured people. Like it, it captured me as an idea. Like Chris Berube on our team was the first, the person who pitched it. And I was like, I'm media. I was like, yep, we gotta do that, you know? And then from there, it just like, I'm just so, so pleased with it. It, it turned out so well.

• 16:51Roman Mars?

  We've got to take a break. When we come back, we get to some listener questions.

• 17:00Roman Mars?

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• 19:54Roman Mars?

  Okay, so we have asked people on the Discord some questions. And so we're going to get through some of those, as many as we can, and then the remaining bit of the show. This first question is from Jimmy Mango, probably not his real name, but if it is...

• 20:13Speaker 01

  The Connecticut Mangos, yeah. Great name.

• 20:16Roman Mars?

  The question is, you've posed the question whether there are Robert Moseses, Robert Mozi, waiting for biographies to be written about them. And Carol argues that there might be, there are, but without the same wide-ranging, long-term impact. Have you looked into that at all and found other Moses-like figures? I guess I can answer this. Well, so the funny thing is, is like on the regular show, we get pitches from a lot of reporters. And there's been a flavor of them recently, which is, I want to tell you the story, I want to report the story of the Robert Moses of Toronto, or the Robert Moses of Detroit, or the Robert Moses of LA.

• 20:57Roman Mars?

  And they're all good pitches, I'm not disparaging them at all, but, but there's a, I think, if you know the history of a place, you will find in that place some kind of urban architecture villain that you can hang.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Somebody you can blame for that.

• 21:13Roman Mars?

  That's right. So we had so many of them, I think some of them, you know, will greenlight on their own, but we've actually been talking about, like, do we want to do like a, an urban villain, March Madness-style bracket for people, like, to feed into?

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:30Roman Mars?

  And so, and so, we're thinking about how to execute that and maybe tell littler stories about lots of different men who ruined cities and acted undemocratically and all sorts of other things. You know, I don't know if anyone's quite like Moses, I think that he's... Right. Robert Caro is right. But there are plenty of people who have done plenty of mischief in our cities and it would be, it would be fun to, to look at more of them for sure. So.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  I, I, I think you're right that none of them will, will be direct competitor with Moses, but I think that's partly the, the luck of, when people talk about Abraham Lincoln and they're like, well, of course he was a great president. He got to be president during the Civil War, as if that was like, it's easier to be great when there's a big problem. But I, I think that the fact that he was, that he had the lucky break of being a New York based builder, a New York based power broker. And so there's just a bigger scale to operate on than almost any other city in the country. But you have your, you have your farm league Mozzai all over the place, you know, in their regional power centers. I'm excited about this.

• 22:33Roman Mars?

  So this brings me to like, we're trying to fill this bracket and try to figure this out, how we're going to navigate this on the show. So if you have any, you know, nominations of your Robert Moses of Portland or whatever, we would be delighted to start to collect them and figure out how we're going to put this together into something. I'm not quite sure how to do it, but we'll figure out something.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  The Robert Moses of Portland is like, we have to tear down your house to put this bike lane through.

• 22:59Roman Mars?

  That's right.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Now I'm being terrible to Portland. Any other city is. I'm, I just, I just can't help but mystery them. It's terrible.

• 23:09Roman Mars?

  That is true. So next question from specific Andrew. Not living in NYC, I found myself frequently wondering as I read the book, how's that piece of infrastructure doing these days, especially whenever Caro mused about how permanent Moses shaping would be on the city? What are some of the Moses projects updates that you found notable, either that have stayed relatively unchanged since the power broker was written, or have been demolished, or maybe reworked into something more functional? Elliot, you, you have more familiarity?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  It's a good question. We talked a little bit about the, and I wish I had a more comprehensive answer. I've been away from New York for a number of years now as my primary residence. And the thing about New York is it's always changing fast. I think I mentioned the podcast, I remember the thing that I think it was Colson Whitehead once said, where he said, you're a New Yorker, the first time you can point to something and say, oh, I know it used to be there before this. Like, there used to be a shoe store, you know, but there are certain things that we mentioned on the podcast that like, Shea Stadium, which is a big part of putting there, not there anymore. The New York Coliseum, not there anymore. These things that, the 64 World's Fair site, which was somewhat built to be temporary anyway, but not all of it, that is in large part not there. And someone had sent, was it over Twitter? I can't remember.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Sent me a picture of these 64 World's Fair mosaics that are just destroyed from years of people walking on them, these ground level mosaics. And there are other aspects that he built, like the roads are always falling apart a little bit, like it's the nature of any infrastructure that's not maintained too properly. But there are certain parts of it where I think Carol's right, like the bridges he built, they're not going anywhere, you know? They'll have to be maintained, but no one is replacing those with other bridges. And certainly, the way that he literally reshaped the geographic shape of the city in terms of filling in space between islands and things like that, that's not going anywhere for thousands of years probably. And so there's, there are parts of infrastructure that are sort of that, that are still there.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  And even when they're degrading, they're so important to the infrastructure of the city that they will be maintained. But that's, but I think that's the nature of building stuff, is that like, when you build as much as Moses did, not all of it's gonna last. Not everything he built is gonna, is going to stay forever because New York is this constantly changing city. And it shows you what a massive scale he had to build on in order to make things that are not likely to go away. Because there's so many buildings that were built in New York where the person who put their all into it said, this is my monument. And then eventually it disappeared and it went away. It's such a, it's a constantly changing city. There's the old legend about City Hall, which is way downtown, that they like only put the marble facing on the downtown side because they're like, nobody's going uptown farther than City Hall.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  And now that thing is so far downtown that like, it's ridiculous, you know? Like literally, no one's gonna see this on the other side of the building. And so there's always gonna be stuff of his that is. Degrading, but again, is so necessary that it'll be maintained. But then a few things that'll disappear. And I wish I had a more, for the amount of time I talked, I wish I had a more substantive answer than that.

• 26:14Roman Mars?

  I mean, I mainly feel it in the things that he didn't do, or he did, or he neglected, which is like, you know, the legacy of the subway, which does a remarkable job of moving people around that probably could have been better had it had the same kind of, I don't champion in office for those, you know, 45 years. That's something I sort of feel as a legacy of his. The other part is like, I mean, his infrastructure, how is it doing these days? I mean, and the totality of his impact, you know, even from this congestion pricing thing, which this stop and start planned for a decade, you know, all that sort of stuff is really something that's, it's really, he built that too.

• 26:59Roman Mars?

  Like the opposition that is built into that is Robert Moses's fault, basically.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Good point that the things, it's like, not just the things he built, but the environment that he left behind politically as well. And, you know, emotionally, the world that people grew up in, and now that's in New York, and that's the world that they assume, and they get mad at changes. And it's a multifaceted impact. And you could point to the fact that like, it takes forever to get from Queens over to the east side of the city and then over the west side. Like, that's on the subway. Like, that's, like, that's still a legacy of that the subway system didn't get built out the way that it probably should have, or maintained the way. And it's a legacy of choices. But then there's the ironic, ironically, I was thinking, the piece of it that he was so excited to do, which I think would actually would have been the first thing that would have been replaced, is that Midtown Expressway that would go through buildings.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Because he was so, he was so enamored of this idea. And I have to imagine that if, the moment he died, they would have been like, tear that down, can't have it, no thank you. This is not working. Every now and then a car just accidentally flies off of this expressway into Midtown. Like, we can't have this anymore.

• 28:06Roman Mars?

  I mean, someone has mentioned in the chat that he might be jealous of collecting the tolls on all that congestion pricing. If he could.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:13Roman Mars?

  If he could have collected whatever. I don't even know how many dollars it is. Many, many dollars.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Nine dollars. I wonder if he would have had this real battle of wills of like, I want the money, but I also want the cars to get in more easily. Ah, hmm. You know, because his tolls were relatively inexpensive, but it would have been hard. I think in the end the money would have went out, though.

• 28:31Roman Mars?

  Yeah, yeah. So from specific Andrew, he says, when I visited the power plant in Niagara, this is one of the things he built that remains. I said to my partner, I'm pretty sure that thing is named after Robert Moses, but the book hasn't gotten to it yet. But the book never did, which is an ongoing joke that we keep on making when it comes to this book. It's so funny how much more he actually did, which is hilarious.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  That there is a whole chapter about Shakespeare in the Park and the argument over that. And this enormous power dam that I have to imagine the environmental impact is probably huge. I have to imagine the impact on people's lives in terms of bringing electricity to people was probably huge. And Carol was like, no, no, was it in New York City? No, thanks. Not interested. Don't worry about it. Was it at least in the Long Island area? No. Okay, never mind. Forget it. It's such a, there are times, I love this book so much, and it's so full of things, and it's so big that you don't want more stuff stuffed into it. But there are times when it is like the once in a generation historical literature version of the New Yorker cover, where it's a New Yorker's view of the world, and the street you live on is huge, and a block away is a little bit smaller, and then somewhere

• 29:41Speaker 01

  in the distance is like the rest of the country. And then beyond that's the dot that says Asia, you know? And that's like, there's times when the book is a little bit like that.

• 29:48Roman Mars?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where everything, you know, like, north of the Bronx is like upstate New York, you know?

• 29:56Speaker 01

  It really, it would bother people. I'd be like, oh, that person lives upstate now. They're like, no, they live like in Westchester. That's not that far upstate. Well, yeah, it's north of the city, so.

• 30:07Roman Mars?

  This question is from Kiss GZ. I'm interested in how the changes Moses has brought about relate to the city's fiscal crisis in the mid 70s. In the book Fear City, this is not directly explained, but I suspect that the two stories are very much connected. President Ford and his circle was convinced that the city had brought its problems on itself through heedless, profligate spending, and I presume that spending was mostly Moses. Yet, interestingly, he is only mentioned twice in that book, once as the legendary planner, as if he had nothing to do with what happened in 1975. Do you have any thoughts on this, Elliot?

• 30:40Speaker 01

  I do indeed have thoughts on this, Roman. I mean, the main thing is that I think it's not quite fair, I think, to say New York is out of money because Robert Moses spent all the money, because so much of the money he was playing with didn't come straight from the city's coffers. You know, a lot of it was federal money, a lot of it was tribal money. But I think that he is related to it in that the real issue with the city in the 70s, much of it, was not just that it was out of money, but also that it did not have the infrastructure to care for the people who lived there and to provide the services they needed. And that is very much a Robert Moses legacy, that transit around the city was difficult, that public recreation for the lesser served portions of the city continued to be lesser served.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  That really poured into the social and cultural issues the city was dealing with, which are the things that led to so much of the, like, the middle class leaving the city and things like that, and brought us to the period in New York history, which I was born just too late to be a part of, but which I grew up hearing stories about so much, the kind of like 70s into the very early 80s New York, where it seems like you were either going to see the first show of the greatest bands that ever played, or you were getting mugged at knife point. And there was no, that was your day. There was the two things that you were doing and nothing else. You know, you spent your morning at the forefront of an artistic revolution, and then at night someone hit you in the back of the head and stole your rent money. Like, that was it. Like, that was New York.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Like, the New York my parents would tell me about, where they'd be like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, well, we couldn't walk by Port Authority because there was a guy who stood on the street corner and would just punch people in the stomach." And it's like, "Oh, this was like a, this was like a local fixture. This was not just a thing that happened one day." So, the city that he left behind is part of it, but I don't know if it's necessarily money-specific. You had a point that you made throughout the podcast, Roman, I think bears on here, about New York's relationship with money.

• 32:31Roman Mars?

  Well, the common theme every chapter is New York was broke, like constantly. So I like, I have a hard time believing that. I mean, he maybe made it more broke, but it was constantly broke, which is part of his power, was like, he was able to secure this money from, you know, a lot of it federal and outside sources and from, you know, from tolls and stuff like that and bonds and, you know, these perpetual, like forever existing public authorities. And so that can't be new. He, he just was, you know, it was a certain type of extractor of resources. And that's fine when you're in the good extracting stage where there's plenty.

• 33:14Roman Mars?

  But then you hit a wall and all of a sudden that extraction has its most, you know, like painful cost. And, and I think he was running out his string in the seventies, even if he was an immortal who could live forever and keep going. He, he, he just couldn't extract anymore.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  He had, he had squeezed the juice out of the city and was like, ah, but I still, I mean, the fact that his, it feels like his dreams went from the visionary dreams of a young man who's seen things on a scale no one else can see, to the visionary dreams of a kind of a tyrant who is, he realizes has the power to do things that he can't see, to the dreams of a madman who is like, ah, why does the city need people when it could have roads? And like, he had one solution for everything and it was roads. And he eventually went, it seems to have gone mad with it. And so I think you're right, by the seventies, he was less of a, he was still an entity to be feared, but not as much of a, the, the creator that he once was.

• 34:06Roman Mars?

  But you can definitely feel the, the city of the seventies, that the book Fear City and the question is, is evoking in the title, which is The Fall of New York, which you wouldn't write that as a subtitle today. And there's this, there's a certain, you can tell the moment it was written in, because there's a lot of Robert Kerr going, you know, like the way things are bad now, you know, which

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:27Roman Mars?

  really changed in these 50 years in interesting ways. You know, it didn't get all better, but it, it definitely changed. And so it's, it's interesting.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that the book is, I think, well, he's writing it, he's very much thinking of it as a work of reporting of the now and the things that led to the now. There's a criticism of the book that's come up on the 50th anniversary, which is like, it's not as accurate about New York's state as it once was. It's like, well, yeah, dude, I hope not. It's 50 years. Like, if the city can't rebound in a half a century, then nobody should live there. But he's very much writing it from the point of view of, this is the world that Moses made and we're living in it, and it stinks. As opposed to now, when it's so much more of that is in the rearview mirror, because we're all driving on expressways, because subway's not working right now.

• 35:09Roman Mars?

  This question is from Captain Ben. As someone who grew up in Cincinnati, every time I think of a massive highway that cuts through the center of downtown, I now think of Moses and his acolytes as they spread his gospel over the country. Has anyone found evidence or history on the direct impact Moses's infrastructure philosophy had on other US cities during the mid-century? Yeah, this is something we talked about with Robert Caro, and it's something that comes up a lot of like, how important is this Robert Moses, really? Because this was happening in a lot of places. And Robert Caro's response was that Moses taught people that you could destroy neighborhoods with little or no repercussions in a modern democracy. You could do that as an imperial power, you know?

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a telltale, yeah. There's a real question, I think, this is something that comes up a lot, and I was bringing up Abraham Lincoln. Something people talk about about Abraham Lincoln is like, how much was he guiding events? How much was he guided by events? And with Moses, it's kind of similar, that he is someone who was very much at the forefront of this switch to a road-based lifestyle, especially in cities. And he was someone who was working on, again, the biggest showpiece in America, New York City. But at the same time, he was like, in the mainstream. He was not pushing against the currents of the culture. This was something that everybody was interested. I mean, this is, he's working before the federal interstate highway system, but that feeling is in the air. And at the, like, the 39 World's Fair, there's the Futurama exhibit, which is kind of an exhibit of

• 36:38Speaker 01

  what life will be like in the future. And driving, commuting between work and home over highways with cars is a big part of that. I mean, it's a General Motors thing, which is why it was a big part of it. But the idea of living a highway-driving-based lifestyle, and is, and being able to get in and out of cities easily, is already in the In the zeitgeist, but he manages to like, capture that zeitgeist and work with it at a level that nobody else is. And a comparison that that came up when we were kind of discussing this earlier today, which I think is still relevant, is that there's a lot of musicians who are kind of doing the same kind of thing as Taylor Swift, but they're not doing it in the way that connects to people the same way. Nobody would say Taylor Swift is like

• 37:20Speaker 01

  a like a revolutionary artist who is changing the rules of the game. But she does what she's doing at this level that resonates and impacts clearly at a higher level for for people. And so in many ways, I think Robert Moses is similar. He's just that he's the Taylor Swift of mid-century highway building. You know, he's he is doing what everybody else is doing. But he's just doing it so much better, you know, he's doing it. He's doing it on a global scale.

• 37:43Roman Mars?

  All I see now in the chat is several people are typing.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're very, yeah, they're very, I'm not saying Taylor Swift is bad. Come this is a, oh, I should never said it. All right.

• 37:55Roman Mars?

  Oh, my goodness. Okay.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Look, we hear my kids are our fans of hers. We hear a lot of it at the house.

• 38:01Roman Mars?

  I love Taylor Swift. You're alone on this island.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  I didn't say she's bad. This is a compliment to Robert Moses.

• 38:08Roman Mars?

  I see, I see.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  The only thing I've seen like this is when we did a Flop House show once where we did the the movie Spice World and one of my co-hosts mentions that the Spice Girls were kind of an artificially brought together band and the audience booed him so hard.

• 38:24Roman Mars?

  I heard that episode. That's so good.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so funny.

• 38:31Roman Mars?

  Okay, so from JML18, how do you think we find the balance between Moses's build first, ask questions later style of infrastructure projects and what many see today as overregulation, which can stymie attempts to undertake majority infrastructure improvements in modern cities?

• 38:49Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I feel like I'm not, that's above my pay grade. Roman, you've been hosting an urban design and so forth podcast for a while. I think you could talk more about it.

• 39:00Roman Mars?

  Yeah, I mean, you hear this a lot that there should be a Robert Moses for X, or there would be good to have Robert Moses pointing in the direction that you want things to go. And I understand that. I do think that the nature of politics is this push and pull of regulation and deregulation. And see, I still kind of have a way of blaming Robert Moses for a lot of this, which is like, you know, he broke systems to make things dependent on him and his choices and roads and stuff. And so we had to fight back by, you know, creating things that were more fair and more democratic.

• 39:42Roman Mars?

  And so he's kind of at fault for both aspects, you know, for both building things with sort of undemocratically acquired power. And also, he's at fault for democratically acquired power for not being able to do things quickly because we were trying to stop future Robert Moses in a lot of these ways.

• 40:04Roman Mars?

  I get it that maybe it is too far and you just have to go to or listen in on a Berkeley City Council meeting of NIMBYs and go like, why can they stop things from happening that need to happen? And then you read a similar thing happening in The Power Broker and you wish that those voices had more power in that situation. So the hard part is, is like, there is the right balance to be made. It would all work better if more people focused and voted on local elections and paid attention to these things.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  If they were the people you agreed with, Roman. Boom, gotcha.

• 40:45Roman Mars?

  No, but I mean, I think both, like you just pay attention to it and try to make it responsive. But you do, you need to push and pull. Like, I think all good design comes from top-down planning and also a ground-up, little bit more informal process of the citizens, you know, making their neighborhood as good as they can. But we do get out of balance pretty, pretty quickly and easily, and that's a shame. But a lot of the time when I'm reading this book, I'm kind of grateful that Robert Moses Wasn't more evil, you know? Given all that stuff, what he could have done and that he was still pretty dedicated to parks and things like that was is kind of amazing.

• 41:28Roman Mars?

  You could totally imagine a worse person taking way more liberties and really truly destroying everything and and also like self enriching to an extent that was absolutely mind boggling, so.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  I think it's it's it's the only thing I have to say about is that it's so hard to find that balance, I think, because you can't tell the future. So you don't know the consequences of a thing until it's done, really. You can guess at them, you can estimate them, but it's so hard. And so it is easy for us to look back at the power broker and be like, this is a good thing, this is a bad thing, I wish he'd done this, I wish he I'm glad he did this, I wish he hadn't done this. But it's harder to know that when someone is bringing a new plan to you. I mean, sometimes it's very clear what things are not good and sometimes it seems really clear what things are good, but it's just hard. You never can know what a what the real impact of a thing is going to be until, you know, years after the fact. And we don't have time travel yet, but when we do, our decisions are going to be a lot easier to make.

• 42:23Roman Mars?

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• 45:15Roman Mars?

  Jane asks, "A mock-up of Lincoln Center is that the opening shot of the 2021 remake of West Side Story, looking up the original 1961 film, I learned that the locations used were actual slum clearance sites from Moses' projects. Is there any other media that since reading The Power Broker has you shouting, 'Robert Moses' at shaking your fist at the screen?"

• 45:35Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I feel like I now look at the shot in The Producers where Gene Wilder and Zero Mostell are standing at the fountain in Lincoln Center and the fountain goes off when he goes, "I want everything I've ever seen in the movies." Like, and they decide they are gonna steal money from all these old ladies to fund this bad play. Like, now I think of that more as a Robert Moses moment, you know? But I have to admit, when I watch movies set in New York, I spend so much time trying to identify places I've been in person, that I don't always have the historical view of things. Instead, I'm like, "I know that street corner." There's a very bad, low-budget movie from years ago called Robot in the Family that was shot almost entirely in one stretch of street of Broadway between like 14th Street and 12th Street, where it's just a bunch of antique stores. And I was like, at the time, and I was like, I used to walk that

• 46:18Speaker 01

  street multiple times a day when I was a college student and watch it. Now I love this movie, even though it's terrible, because it brings me back to those days, you know? But what about you? Is there anything, as someone who didn't live in New York, and so don't have that personal bias blinding you, are there things that you've seen since then where you're like, "That's a Robert Moses thing"?

• 46:34Roman Mars?

  Um, well, one of my favorite movies is the Bill Murray movie Quick Change, where he robs a bank, dresses as a clown, and is trying to get out of the city. And it's all very confusing about how you get to the BQE, and how you do this, and how you do that. And I never knew until this reread that the villain of that movie is actually Robert Moses. That's the reason why they can't make it out of the city. And it makes me appreciate that movie even more. But that's one I can think of. Anytime I see a kind of, especially those movies from, you know, like, I love those movies from the 70s, and I just feel like that's the city he

• 47:18Roman Mars?

  created. And it's sort of, I definitely feel them when I watch, like, Taken One, Two, Three, and stuff like that.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Oh, the greatest movie of all time, Taken One, Two, Three. I was gonna make a mean joke about you, where I'm like, "Well, I know Roman as someone who's not from New York. When you're watching movies set in New York, you're mostly going, 'Gosh, look at how big those buildings are."

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Look at them big buildings. Yeah. Wait, there's a little bit of talk in the chat about the Taken Pal 123. I will say for anyone who wants a taste of that 70s New York, if you haven't seen the original Taken Pal 123, it's such a concentrated, like, straight shot of adrenaline of being in New York in 1974. I really love it so much. It's such a window for me into that time. Anyway, so I recommend it.

• 47:59Roman Mars?

  Oh, it's so, it's so, so good. I rewatched it again while we were doing this project and it's, it just totally stands up. It also makes you realize how much the subway has actually changed. You know, just like the amount of graffiti, the amount of like, stuff that was happening, just like the, the subways, you know, definitely have, you know, horrible attacks happen still, not to minimize them, but they, but they've, it's not just in stasis and just gotten worse and worse and worse. They've actually like, improved the subways and their function quite a bit.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  I remember watch, when I was a kid, we used to watch Coming to America a lot. And there's a scene where they get on subway car and it's, outside of it's covered in graffiti. And I remember so well the moment that I saw that movie when, like, I'd seen it many times. I've been to New York many times and seeing it and being like, oh, well, they're not dirty like that anymore. Like, I remember when they were, but suddenly it was like, oh yeah, the last time I was on the subway, it was much cleaner. This movie is not up to date and Coming to America is not up to date, you know, ripped from the headlines anymore. You know, the city is always changing. As we've said, it's not the same city that it was 50 years ago. And that's mostly a good thing and in some ways, not a good thing, but, but everything's always changing.

• 49:05Roman Mars?

  Related to movies, Ken Stigner on the chat is asking, I'm curious about your thoughts on Ed Norton's Motherless Brooklyn, which RM is depicted as Moses Randolph in the book. Did you see Motherless Brooklyn?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Yes, I did. I was so, it's such a curious movie to me because I'm a huge fan of the original author of the, the original book, Jonathan Leatham. And that book is very much not about Robert Moses and is also not a period story. It's set in the 1990s when it was written. And Motherless Brooklyn went through a long development process to become a movie. And it feels very clear that at some point Ed Norton read The Power Broker and was like, that's what the movie needs to be about. And so, he's trying his best, and I think it's a not entirely successful movie, but I think it is a very good movie. He's trying his best to make- For New York, what Chinatown is to Los Angeles. It's kind of like secret history of why the city is the way it is and how it's built on the work of a sinister force, you know? And it's a really well-made movie.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  It doesn't quite do everything it needs to do, but I'm curious what you think about it because I do think it is a good movie.

• 50:05Roman Mars?

  Well, I just remember showing up to it and I read Jonathan Leatham's book and really loved it. And then you go to see Motherless Brooklyn and the first scene is the first scene from The Power Broker and you're like, what is going on? Like, it's like almost exactly the same.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  You wind up to the theater lobby and you're like, someone switched the titles on the movies. This is not the one I thought I was seeing.

• 50:23Roman Mars?

  And so I did not expect it at all. It was very strange to me. I didn't know, like, copyright-wise, it's like, I guess it's a thing that happened in history, but it was like so, it was just weird. It was like an adaptation of a scene from The Power Broker. And so I also just, it was kind of a delight to see it on screen, especially as a surprise. We, you know, we had talked to Ed Norton's people about getting him on the show because I know he really, really cares about this stuff. And obviously like, he kind of wedged it into this other movie for, for no like apparent reason.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  It's not like you read that book and you're like, you know what? There's an opportunity here to do a period piece about Robert Moses. Like, it really does feel like he smuggled one book into another. He literally took Motherless Brooklyn's dust jacket and put it over The Power Broker cover and then brought that into class, you know?

• 51:11Roman Mars?

  But like, but I thought it was fun and, you know, I think Ed Norton is really great. I mean, I don't know, I saw the Bob Dylan movie recently and he's so good as Pete Seeger. Like, it's really something. Like, he's usually so nervy and he has so much energy and sort of ferocity in him. And he plays this like, like this, the peaceful calm of Pete Seeger in this way I've never seen his like, his whole face is relaxed and his voice is relaxed and stuff. And it's like, I just, I admire him greatly. So I would have loved to talk to him about it. I just, I just remember being just kind of gobsmacked. Just like, I was like, whoa, this is weird. But yeah, I was just kind of delighted by it and I think it's a good little window into it. And if it brings you to The Power Broker, then that's great, you know?

• 51:55Speaker 01

  I mean, if it brings you to Paracord, that's wonderful. If it brings you to Jonathan Leatham works, you know?

• 51:58Roman Mars?

  Yeah.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  If you go from that to reading Fortress of Solitude, you know, then that's fantastic.

• 52:02Roman Mars?

  Also a really fantastic book, which brings me to kind of the final question that people have been asking us is from Ben G. I feel immensely grateful for this project to bring The Power Broker into my life, but what now? What are some of your favorite books?

• 52:18Roman Mars?

  I have lots of them.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Name two, give us some, give us some.

• 52:23Roman Mars?

  I guess my favorite, I'm trying to, I have a hard time like note, they really are depend on my mood. But like my favorite other big, long book that I think is worth reading probably multiple times is Lonesome Dove. I think it's just fun to read. I think it's really, really enjoyable. The LBJ books are rip roaring good. Like, you know, I highly recommend just like going straight through and keep and read them. And I honestly think I don't, I know it's like, I don't know if it's sacrilege on this final episode, but I think the LBJ books are collectively.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Don't say it, Roman, don't say it. No, but they were saying, you've made the point to me, Roman, which I think is true that he is, he is even more in control of his abilities because of the practice he had at the power broker. But those are great books. It's very intimidating because they're huge, but they're so readable. Those Lenny Johnson.

• 53:11Roman Mars?

  They're, they're super readable. There are a lot of the stuff that I think like there's some confusion that we talked through of the timeline jumping that happens to make the power broker work, which he just seems to have smoothed out a way to do that. A little less jarring sometimes in the, in the LBJ books where you always kind of know where you are. He, he has more of a window into LBJ's thoughts. And it becomes a very emotional, very weird, like you spend a long time inside of LBJ's head, which does not feel fun. Exactly. Because he's so anxious and needy and greedy.

• 53:53Roman Mars?

  And we never asked this, we never got to the point, but I, but I kind of, I was kind of want to ask Robert Caro what it felt like to be inside of LBJ's head, because it doesn't seem like a fun place to spend a lot of time. So anyway, the LBJ books are great. If you like other New York books, I think Paul Oster is like one of the great chroniclers of Brooklyn. I think he's really, really fantastic. Other historians, Barbara Tuckman was my first sort of like love of a history writer. I think The Proud Tower is exceptional. I think Joe Lepore's, it's almost the opposite, Joe Lepore's These Truths is a real like survey of American history. And is super fun, really, really fun. My other favorite sort of like journalism book is Ted Conover's New Jack,

• 54:38Roman Mars?

  where he, he goes undercover as a corrections officer. That, that one's phenomenal.

• 54:47Roman Mars?

  What about you?

• 54:48Speaker 01

  Uh, I should have put more time into answer into thinking about this because we because I it's a question that is a good question to ask. The nonfiction book that I think I probably have read the most times is The Journalist and the Murderer, which I love. I mean, it helps that it's a very short book, but I love that book. And it made me think so differently about the power difference between people interviewing other people, but also just how people interact with each other and what the actions of someone who instinctively starts to want the approval of another person, how it changes them, you know, and how it changes the way they act. I love that book so much.

• 55:21Roman Mars?

  That's a weird book. That is weird book.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  It's the whole story of it is very is very strange. Yeah.

• 55:27Roman Mars?

  Yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  But the fact that it's a book about another book about a true crime case and the author becomes part of the dynamic of these people, you know?

• 55:36Roman Mars?

  It is so weird. Like, I just read it recently for the first for the first time. And I was just like, this is freaky. Like, this is a real like, it's just sort of like new journalism, you know, hitting at this moment. Like, it just feels like the apex of like, I'm the person in the story affecting the story, feeding back to the story. The subject is talking to me about their disappointment in me, you know, like all sorts of stuff. Like, it's really twisty and strange.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  It's the exact, almost the exact opposite of The Power Broker where Robert Carr was like, it was said to the author that da, da, da, like, he refused to even name himself. And Jen, I was like, when I was talking to this guy, but when it comes to, I read a lot of fiction and I mean, my my favorite books of all time are like, I love The Man Who Was Thursday by T.K. Chesterton. I love Alice in Wonderland. And probably the book above all books for me is still maybe The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams, which is, I just am, I'm now reading those aloud to my older son after rereading them all last year. I turned 42 last year. And so I was like, for my 42nd year, I gotta read The Hitchhiker's Guide again. It's the 42 books.

• 56:37Roman Mars?

  That's right.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  And that's a book that I find, it's a short book that I genuinely laugh out loud at, but I find so much meaning in it. There's so much in it that I find very rich and meaningful to me, and that is, has helped me through times that I need, need help to get through. And so those are the ones that kind of come to the top of my mind, but I should have thought of more nonfiction books. I mean, favorite nonfiction book, other than that, Charles Rivers, Power Broker all the time, all the way, just PB, Power Broker.

• 57:01Roman Mars?

  Yeah. I mean, it's still my favorite too. I just noticed his developing craft as he gets through the other books is, and each of them is quite a bit different. What, you know, the, the first book kind of feels most like The Power Broker, a lot of, you know, deep dive and, and history to explain things. The second book is like basically a thriller about like him stealing his first congressional election. And that's sort of like putting out the pasture of Koch Stevenson. And then the, the master of the senate is this like, is basically like a large book wrapped around a 350 page history of the, you know, the entire senate body history. And it's just like, it's just amazing. Like they're, they're really,

• 57:42Roman Mars?

  really amazing. I think another, if you want to, short histories, I think it's sort of an undersung history author I like is Paul Collins. He wrote a book called Benvard's Folly, which I've always just kind of loved. And I just like his storytelling style. There's so many good books. I'm, I, you know, anyway.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  If you want to, if you want to read a book that is a different take on urban municipal infrastructure and its failings, then I think I would kind of recommend the first four volumes of Katsuhiko Atomo's manga Akira, which is ostensibly about psychic children and biker gangs, but it, but under the surface, and also his, his horror story, Domo, they are both about massive infrastructure failures for ordinary urban dwellers in, in Tokyo. Domo is about this huge housing complex that has a, again, has an old man who's a kind of psychic murderer. And Akira again, is about psychic children and, and bike gangs. But so much of it is about people getting, rebelling or being crushed by systems, urban

• 58:46Speaker 01

  infrastructure systems, and what happens when those systems are either not functioning right, or when they fail outright, like when a psychic child unleashes a wave of TK force, which, which levels the city. But if you, to look at those from a, from a municipal infrastructure point of view, I think there's a lot to be found in there. And also just like, it's just top notch action, you know, top notch comics action.

• 59:07Roman Mars?

  To be sure.

• 59:09Roman Mars?

  So we have one little bonus question that Isabelle has put in the chat from Schultz, saying, I know a few people who heard about this whole thing recently and are planning to read along with the podcast this year. How does the prospect of the breakdown living beyond 2024 make you feel? Makes me feel great. I don't know.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Why would it be? Why would it be bad? I don't have to know.

• 59:28Roman Mars?

  I mean, I like that it's there as a resource. I mean, I feel like if you had to read this for school and wanted some companionship for it, like, I feel like it really could be this nice supplement that goes along with it. And it does have the imprintor of Robert Caro, who has heard many of them, I think, at least he claims to have. And he thinks that our analysis is pretty good. Like, he's never like bickered too much with it, except for the one time that Elliot said, I think this is really funny. And he goes, that's not funny at all. It's really serious.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  I think it's powerful. Yeah, I was like, oh, yeah, that was trouble for me. But yeah, I think it's, I love the idea that this, that this hopefully as a series will not disappear or evaporate, that people like people have it in the future. And I, I always thought as a writer that my, my legacy would be in television or in books. And I'm coming more and more into around the idea that I think my creative legacy, if I have one, is probably going to be in podcasting. And the idea that when the 100th anniversary of the Power Broker comes along, in theory, someone could still pick up this, this podcast and listen to it along while reading it. That's very, very special to me. If we can, the metaphor in my head has always been that we are like remoras, the fish that stick their heads to sharks and ride on the shark and eat what falls out of the shark's mouths.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  If we can stick like remoras on a, on the power broker and be a, be in kind of unofficial, semi, semi authorized, and you know, a compliment to it, then that's, that's wonderful, you know?

• 1:00:55Roman Mars?

  Yeah, I totally agree. And at some point, I think we're, they exist in the feed there for 99% of visible, so we can monetize them and, and put ads on them. I do think at some point, we will break them out on their own so that they can be sort of like found more easily and not to wade through as many 99% visible episodes to find them. And I do think that, that kids 10 years from now will find the show and hopefully find it, you know, like, put it on their, and teachers will put it on their curriculums. And that'd be awesome. I would, I would love that. I'm still delighted when. I have six children under my care and they sometimes tell me when they get assigned a 99% visible episode and I'm always really delighted when I, when I hear about that. And so, so I would love to hear.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  That's it. Nobody assigns Flop House episodes. And they're just not, nobody, nobody has yet done any, any, you know, Troll 2 studies where they need it, where they need to hear our take on it, you know?

• 1:01:51Roman Mars?

  Well, that's their loss. There should be plenty of Troll 2 studies.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, people specializing in Nickless Cage, what's the word? When it's a temporary thing, Miss Alany. No, that's not what I'm looking for. Never mind. I couldn't think of the word. I'm thinking of.

• 1:02:04Roman Mars?

  So thanks, everyone, for joining us. It's been a real delight. We'll still be on the Discord. Like, if you want to ask questions about the Power Broker, we'll still figure out maybe how we're gonna work together and do a similar project in the future. So we'll let you know when that happens. But in general, just catch up on the show on in the feed. We'll listen again, tell friends about it. That would be really, really fantastic. And be sure to check out the rest of 99PIs episodes because we talk about this stuff a lot that are, that will interest you. So I hope that you also listen to the original recipe 99PIs because they mean a lot to me and a lot of really, really smart people outside of myself put those together. And also, you should listen to the Flop House.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, why not? If you want the opposite of the podcast, which is, and I don't mean, by the opposite, I don't mean me not talking very much, which is, you're not gonna get that. You're just gonna get me talking too much. But the Flop House podcast, the, I've been referring to it as America's first bad movie podcast, probably, because I'm not sure, but we're, we're one of the first and we're still going strong. I realized last night, as I was going to sleep late from my work, that in a couple of years, we'll be have been doing it for 20 years, which is crazy. We just plan to keep doing it as long as we can. If you check out the Flop House podcast, please do. I realize I have another podcast I can mention on the Smartless Network, which is called Clueless, which is just a, it's like a 10 to 12 minute puzzle podcast where I ask the questions and Sean Hayes answers the questions.

• 1:03:32Roman Mars?

  It's really good. I like it a lot.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's a fun one to do. We're recording more tomorrow. Uh, which means I have to write some more. Uh, and I currently have a series coming out from DC Comics. It's the Harley Quinn book. That's right. Harley Quinn, America's favorite kind of anarchic lady clown. I'm writing her book for, I guess, the foreseeable future. And I've managed to make this, the first kind of 12 issues that I'm working on of it, mostly about gentrification and like her trying to, her trying to stop a developer from changing the last, from getting rid of the last block of her old neighborhood that reminds her of her own neighborhood. So her old neighborhood, I'm like, I'm like, oh, I managed to get a little bit of like kind of power broker adjacent into the Harley Quinn comic book. I'm very excited about this.

• 1:04:15Roman Mars?

  You should lift a whole scene from the power broker, put it in the middle of it.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  I should just start putting, I should just start putting like the words from Marrow's in the mouth of the villain character. So that's on comic book store shelves once a month is Harley Quinn.

• 1:04:30Roman Mars?

  Awesome. Well, thank you again, everyone for being part of this project with us and thank you Elliot so much. It's just been just such a fun year. I've loved working with you. I've been an admirer of your work for a very long time. We've been friends that didn't really hang out very much for a very long time.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  We talked a lot about making plans to hang out and it never kind of, never kind of came together.

• 1:04:50Roman Mars?

  And so I'm so glad that we had this opportunity to get together at least once a month to talk about something we both really care about. So, um, so thank you, everybody, and thanks for listening. It's been really a blast.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:05:04Roman Mars?

  This bonus episode of the 99% Invisible Breakdown of the Power Broker was produced by Isabel Angel, edited by Committee, music by Swan Real, mixed by Martine Gonzalez. Make sure you get your Power Broker Breakdown merch. There's the Robert Moses Band T-shirt with all the dates of the episodes and chapters on the back. So you never forget how much you read in 2024. We've got a great sturdy tote bag that you can carry any of the books that we recommended today. At the time of this recording, the Power Broker Challenge coins are in stock. We also got some great merch that's just branded to 99% Invisible. It's all really good stuff. It's all at 99pi.org/store.

• 1:05:42Roman Mars?

  99% Invisible's executive producer is Kathy Too. Our senior editor is Delaney Hall. Kurt Kohlstedt is the digital director. The rest of the team includes Chris Berube, Jason DeLeon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Jacob Medina Gleason, Christopher Johnson, Vivian Le, Kelly Prime, Joe Rosenberg, and me, Roman Mars. The 99% Invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence. The art for this series was created by Aaron Nester. We are part of the SiriusXM Podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora Building in beautiful Uptown Oakland, California. You can find me on the show on Blue Sky and on our Discord server. We have a link to that, as well as every past episode of 99PI. And please, download many, many episodes of 99PI.

• 1:06:25Roman Mars?

  Please, it would mean a lot. You can find them at 99pi.org.

• 1:06:44Speaker 03

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So, when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's Syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness,

• 1:07:28Speaker 03

  pain, or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NUR-TAC or visit Nurtac.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 1:07:43Speaker 04

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