Alligator Attack - 2 Brothers 1 Gator

Wayne and Joel Petteway were out checking on crab pots in Jacksonville, Florida when an alligator took exception to him being in its waters. (10:06) - timestamp if you want to skip Jeff's story about getting catfished! Watch here: Alligator Attack - 2 Brothers 1 Gator ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social: Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Jeff Larson?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome to Tooth and Claw Podcast. We have our bear biologist and doesn't like dancing robots, but he likes dancing animals. Actually, no, you don't like dancing animals.

• 0:25Wes Larson?

  I don't really like dancing animals either. I do like dancing robots, Jeff. I just don't need to own one, but I do like them.

• 0:32Jeff Larson?

  I'm Wes's brother, Jeff Larson, and we got Mike Smith.

• 0:36Wes Larson?

  Hey.

• 0:37Jeff Larson?

  Looking dapper with his turtleneck.

• 0:39Wes Larson?

  Love it. Pretty much a brother.

• 0:40Jeff Larson?

  I don't mean that as a dig. I'm being genuine. I like turtlenecks. You look good.

• 0:44Wes Larson?

  Thank you. I feel good.

• 0:46Jeff Larson?

  I have a story I kind of wanted to lead with that. I mean, if it goes a little long, we could even just tell people skip ahead, but I don't think it'll go super long.

• 0:55Wes Larson?

  That's up to you.

• 0:55Jeff Larson?

  I had a listener catfish me on Instagram.

• 0:58Wes Larson?

  Okay. Whoa, let's hear about it.

• 1:01Jeff Larson?

  I saw this is just like sexy lady legs with the bubble, right? And they had like commented.

• 1:06Wes Larson?

  Like their avatar picture was that?

• 1:08Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. There's like no face. It's just a skirt with like legs.

• 1:12Wes Larson?

  That's all it takes. If you want to get Jeff's attention.

• 1:16Jeff Larson?

  I read all of our comments on Instagram and like I'd seen that bubble. And then that same day they commented on something they were in my DMs messaging me. I look at their profile and I see that it started in September, so it'd only been around for six months or something. And that's weird because like they did have a few cute pictures or whatever. So they're like asking me all these questions I was answering. And then I was like, so how come your Instagram's only like six months old? And they said, oh, I had a stalker who was a neighbor who like invited me to dinner and then like stalked me really hard. The police were involved. I had to start it all over because of that. And I was like, all right, sure, whatever. I wasn't very invested. So it's like, I'm not going to question that. They're sending me a few messages. It's very just light and whatever.

• 2:02Jeff Larson?

  And like, I'll respond to any listeners who DM me and ask me things. So then they like start showing me these cookies they made and they made these bear cookies that were really cool looking. And I was like, oh, you gotta send me cookies. And they're like, yeah, I'd love to. And then they asked for my number and my address and I gave it to them.

• 2:21Wes Larson?

  Oh, no.

• 2:23Jeff Larson?

  Man, they're just texting me so much. They send me this text of a beanie baby that's like Michigan State themed. Look at this beanie baby. I'm like, you know, I think I'm done talking to this person. So I just like didn't respond. A while later, they're like, do you want me to delete your number? And it's like, we didn't text very much. I was like, why would you delete my number? And then they're like, oh, I just don't want to be bothering you. And then I'm like, I don't know. And then they like, start telling me they're going through chemo. And I had a personal goal that some listeners had told me, all of us, but like, had told me that tooth and claws really helped them with like cancer treatments or sicknesses.

• 3:02Jeff Larson?

  I always respond and I'm very nice about it, but it was kind of like, you know, I could have done more and like checked in with those people and like tried a little harder to really help them through something hard. So I was like, maybe I should just support this person because it's obvious that they need some attention. So I started talking to him a bit again, but then I like send Mike a text. It's like, dude, this person asked me if they should delete my number. I'm regretting not saying yes so much.

• 3:29Jeff Larson?

  But then that night, I'm like trying, but not really responding that much. And that night on their Instagram story, I see the SpongeBob meme of going into 2025, expecting not to get my heart broken. Immediately gets heartbroken because guy won't text her back. I was like, whoa. That's insane. We're not even flirting or anything. So then, I don't know, it just seemed weird. But then the next day they start messaging me a bunch and I send them a screenshot of their story. I was like, was this about me? And they're like, yeah, it is. And I was like, yeah, that's a problem because I'm like, not going to be talking to you as much as I happen. And you're like, not liking how little I talk to you.

• 4:12Jeff Larson?

  And then they just go into this whole chemo thing. Oh, like I'll just delete you. They block me on Instagram, immediately unblock me so that I'm not following them anymore. But then keep just DMing me a ton. They started using stuff to try to get me to be like, oh, I'm sorry. It's my fault. I was like, listen, I think that you rightfully have a lot going on. You just need some support. Can you like, talk to friends and family? And they're like, no, they don't talk to me. If I die, no one will know. I'm just like, well, I talked to you like one day ago. I don't like, you're putting a lot on me here.

• 4:49Wes Larson?

  Oh, man.

• 4:50Jeff Larson?

  They bring up chemo. I'm like, that's so, I don't know, I can't imagine, but honestly, I can't be there for you the entire day. They say, well, you're ugly on the inside and out.

• 5:01Wes Larson?

  Whoa.

• 5:04Jeff Larson?

  And then they say bye to me so many times too. And I say, I wish you the best, goodbye. And then just so much more stuff. And it's just never going to end. So the next day they called me like ugly and whatever. And I said, I just am thinking, there's something weird about this. So I go on their Instagram and I look and none of their pictures, even like pictures of them just being a cute girl. None of them have any comments. So I say, okay, this can't be real. So then I put one of the pictures that they just texted me, which was weird, just to text me pictures of themselves. But I took a picture and I searched it on Google. Nothing came up. So then I paid $10 for this like face search website that I randomly found on Reddit.

• 5:50Jeff Larson?

  And I found the actual person. So then I DM'd the actual person. I was like, this person's been trying to catfish me with your pictures. They've had your account up for a few months. And the person was like, yeah, they also used it on Hinge around here in Michigan. And like, I don't know who it is. So I was like, well, actually I have their phone number. So maybe you should check your contacts. And I sent them the phone number. And they're like, oh, it's not in my contacts. And then I sent on Instagram, I sent the catfish. They sent me this huge rant after I had said goodbye again. They said, I'm never talking to you again. I'm like, okay, goodbye. That's probably a good idea.

• 6:32Wes Larson?

  Thank you.

• 6:33Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. And there's maybe the fifth time that they told me they're never talking to me again. And then the next day they're like, I just gotta say, I wasn't looking to you for support. I just wanted to open myself up as a friend. I can't believe you would reject that. They're like in nursing school. So I told them once, I had thought about nursing for a sec. They're like, you would have made a terrible nurse because nurses need to be compassionate and you're not compassionate. But I'm a great nurse and just this huge rant. So I replied with screenshots of the actual girl's photos that this fake girl had sent me. And I said, so who the are you actually?

• 7:10Jeff Larson?

  And then they deleted everything. Never talk to me again. And then right afterwards, the real girl messaged me again and said, oh, we looked up the phone number in the white pages. It's so and so.

• 7:22Wes Larson?

  Wow.

• 7:22Jeff Larson?

  The person, there's a high chance they're listening right now and are just finding out I know their name.

• 7:31Wes Larson?

  Well, the story could continue from there then.

• 7:33Jeff Larson?

  But yeah, they deleted the whole account and you know, I don't feel too embarrassed because I don't think I really got too deep into it. I think I was just kind of bored at the start. You know, I'll engage with people like especially you tell me you're going through chemo. Like, yeah, I'll talk to you.

• 7:48Wes Larson?

  Especially if you got sexy legs in your.

• 7:53Jeff Larson?

  I don't know. It's just, it's just kind of crazy. It was funny though, because like this person was giving me real anxiety. I was on like a walk and I was just like, I'm so anxious that this person's going to text me and like, I just don't want to respond. So then once I figured it out, I had like so much relief and just like feeling really good about myself.

• 8:13Wes Larson?

  I'm just, I'm just glad you're the one that got scammed for once and not me.

• 8:19Wes Larson?

  It's nice to have someone else in the scam.

• 8:21Jeff Larson?

  I don't feel scammed though.

• 8:22Wes Larson?

  You never do. You got scammed. They got your.

• 8:24Jeff Larson?

  I feel like I'm like one of those people who like get the scammers to give them money.

• 8:30Wes Larson?

  Sure. Yeah. I don't know. If you're walking around feeling super anxious about communicating with this person and you gave them your number and your address. Feels like you got a little scammed at least.

• 8:42Mike Smith?

  Emotionally scammed a little bit.

• 8:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 8:44Mike Smith?

  But that's like, well, I don't blame you. That could have happened.

• 8:47Wes Larson?

  I don't either. Yeah. I don't, I don't think it's anything to be embarrassed about. I'm just saying, feels good to not be the only scammy.

• 8:54Jeff Larson?

  The lesson I got out of it is like, if you bother me to a certain point by just demanding me text you all day, you're going to make me get to a breaking point. That's what I learned about myself. I don't like texting.

• 9:08Mike Smith?

  Yeah. You know what the weirdest part of the story was to me was when she showed you a beanie baby and that was the moment you decided you were done. I would, I would have guessed that that would have been the moment you bought in even more because you love.

• 9:22Wes Larson?

  I know. That was strange to me too.

• 9:24Jeff Larson?

  She also sent me a picture of like a rock that says Michigan State on it. And I was just like, I don't, I don't know. What to tell you. It's rock.

• 9:34Mike Smith?

  Well, there you go.

• 9:35Wes Larson?

  Ladies out there, learn your lessons. Don't send Jeff photos of rocks or beanie babies.

• 9:40Jeff Larson?

  Yes.

• 9:41Mike Smith?

  Animal attack of the day is catfish, apparently, where that's the, that's the big story of this episode.

• 9:47Wes Larson?

  Apparently, we're halfway through already.

• 9:49Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 9:49Wes Larson?

  Let's get into our actual story for the day, if you guys are ready. Jeff, I'm glad you didn't compromise yourself any further with this catfish and that you caught him. Good job catching that catfish.

• 10:00Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I feel good about it.

• 10:02Wes Larson?

  You should make a show about catching catfish.

• 10:04Jeff Larson?

  I know.

• 10:05Wes Larson?

  Call it catfish.

• 10:05Jeff Larson?

  I think that's a great idea.

• 10:06Wes Larson?

  Well, I hope you all brought your swamp accents today because we're, we're getting to head to the swamp. Yes, siree. So the source-

• 10:15Jeff Larson?

  What is a swamp hat?

• 10:16Wes Larson?

  No, accent. Your swamp accent.

• 10:18Jeff Larson?

  Did you say accent?

• 10:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah, accent.

• 10:20Jeff Larson?

  Hat?

• 10:21Wes Larson?

  No.

• 10:21Mike Smith?

  A hat wouldn't hurt, though.

• 10:22Wes Larson?

  Bring your swamp hats, too. Big ol' swamp hats. Anyway, today's source is mostly from the show I Was Prey, which could watch on Animal Planet, which is probably now Max. I don't know. I also read a number of news articles about this particular incident. It involves this, this man named Wayne Pettaway.

• 10:41Jeff Larson?

  Isn't Animal Planet just Earth, you know?

• 10:43Wes Larson?

  Yes.

• 10:44Jeff Larson?

  It's not a planet with more animals than Earth.

• 10:46Wes Larson?

  Not that we know of. There's probably one out there, though.

• 10:49Jeff Larson?

  So like Planet Earth and Animal Planet's pretty much the same title?

• 10:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah. You should let Zaslav, whatever the guy that owns Max, let him know that, that it's a dumb name. I don't know. He came up with Max instead of HBO, so I don't think he's great at naming things. Okay, so we're, we're talking about Wayne today.

• 11:08Jeff Larson?

  He watched the social network when the part where he's like, lose the, the on the Facebook.

• 11:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah, he's like, that's what I need to do. Just get rid of HBO, this brand that people really love. So yeah, we're talking about a Wayne today, Wayne Pettaway. He grew up in Jacksonville, North Carolina. And like a lot of people, family was always really important to him. As a kid, his brother Joel was quite a bit bigger and older than him. But it didn't stop them from playing together. They spent a lot of time doing lots of different things together, fishing, crabbing, all sorts of things. And Joel was really into boxing, the older brother, and he would pay Wayne a dollar to spar with him. He would let Wayne be barefisted and he would use boxing gloves because he's like significantly older and bigger than Wayne at the time. And would just beat the shit out of Wayne.

• 12:00Mike Smith?

  One dollar. Wait, when did you say this was taking?

• 12:02Wes Larson?

  This is, I, I'm not sure exactly the year. I'd guess probably in like the sixties or seventies.

• 12:07Mike Smith?

  Okay, so dollars.

• 12:09Wes Larson?

  It's not bad.

• 12:10Mike Smith?

  Not bad. I would have done that.

• 12:11Wes Larson?

  Wayne, you know, Wayne still loves his brother. They got along really well. He did say, once he got in a really good right. And then his brother was like, okay, we're not boxing anymore. Anyway, after high school, he joined the Army National Guard, which he credits with making him a lot stronger, a lot tougher. He got married right after the National Guard. They had a son named Robert. Apparently, Robert was a little chunky baby because when he popped out, the doctor saw him and said, this here's a bubba. And they're like, no, his name's Robert. And he's like, no, this is bubba. That's what the doctor said. But they still named him Robert, which I think he's probably grateful for that.

• 12:48Jeff Larson?

  That is crazy.

• 12:49Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 12:49Jeff Larson?

  The doctor's just telling him, no, you, your name's wrong.

• 12:54Wes Larson?

  Sorry, all fat children are named bubba in this hospital. Wayne ended up getting divorced when Robert was still pretty young and says that the divorce completely shattered him, but he really wanted to be a good dad to his son. And on June 6th, 2001, Wayne had been taking care of Robert, who was still really young. They were staying at Wayne's mom's house when he got a call from his brother Joel. Joel told him that he was at Town Point, which is on New River. And it's a spot that the two grew up going to for fishing and crabbing. And to kind of explain this spot for you, imagine like a, you know, you know, in the South, when you get water that's clear, but also kind of brownish red because it has a lot of tannins in it. That's what this river looks like. It's really big and brown, but also clear water.

• 13:37Wes Larson?

  And has these really wide beaches that are surrounded by like cypress trees and swamp. Really pretty little place to hang out. Anyway, his brother's hanging out there. And he says, I got two crab pots in the water. You should come chill, come throw a frisbee with me and my wife. And Wayne's staying with his mom and his mom says, go have fun. I'll watch Robert. Robert's taking a nap, so he can leave for a few hours. So Wayne gets his stuff together and he heads towards Town Point. And to get there, once you get to the end. End of the pavement, you have to kind of walk through miles of bush to get to this spot. It's pretty isolated, but it's a spot that they both really love to hang out. Joel's wife Gloria is there. She'd set up a tent. And when Wayne got there, the two just kind of drink some beers.

• 14:22Wes Larson?

  They hang out, they're talking on the sandy beach. They haven't gotten in the water. They're just kind of chilling. And the time passes pretty quickly. You know, when you're having fun, time can fly.

• 14:32Jeff Larson?

  You know, that's the truth.

• 14:33Wes Larson?

  It is. Yeah. I, I should copyright that.

• 14:36Jeff Larson?

  That's crazy. Oh, man.

• 14:39Wes Larson?

  So the time passes and Wayne's thinking, I should probably go back. Surely Robert's waking up from his nap by now. I left him with our mom. It's probably time for me to get back home and spend some time with my son. And because he's got a shared custody thing, time with his son is really precious to him. So he really wants to get back. He tells Joel, hey, I need to go. But Joel says, wait, before you leave, I got these two crab pots out in the water. Let's go pull them and check them before you leave. And who can say no to that? You know, you guys can't say no to that. If you're crabbing, you can't turn down pulling a couple pots.

• 15:15Jeff Larson?

  No, you cannot.

• 15:15Wes Larson?

  That's like the sirens in the Odyssey, you know?

• 15:18Jeff Larson?

  The call.

• 15:19Wes Larson?

  If you got crab pots in the water, you're not going away from those. Wayne does, you know, like those sailors in the Odyssey did when they heard the siren song. He goes, he says, all right, I'll go. And he has a bad feeling and something's telling him not to go in the water. And he's pretty hesitant, but then the other thing that, that you just can't say no to happens. His brother calls him a pussy.

• 15:43Jeff Larson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:43Wes Larson?

  And if your brother calls you that, it's really hard to be like.

• 15:46Jeff Larson?

  Because he doesn't really want to go?

• 15:48Wes Larson?

  Yeah, he just kind of feels like he shouldn't go out in the water and he should go back home to his son.

• 15:53Jeff Larson?

  You can't overuse it though. Like maybe, maybe his brother like hardly ever calls him that.

• 15:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 15:58Jeff Larson?

  Cause if he calls him it for like not running the red light and stuff, it's like.

• 16:03Wes Larson?

  Then you're like, whatever. Yeah.

• 16:05Jeff Larson?

  If you like always, it works every single time. He's like, I'll run this red light.

• 16:10Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I love how your, your example of something very casual is something that is actually kind of extreme, just running a red light.

• 16:19Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 16:19Wes Larson?

  It's kind of a big deal.

• 16:20Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 16:21Jeff Larson?

  I was just saying, like, that's something he could call you a pussy for, you know? Like, as a joke, like, run that red light, you pussy.

• 16:28Wes Larson?

  Which, you know, we shouldn't be calling people that anyways. It's just kind of an offensive thing to call anyone. He, he gives into this peer pressure, and I think peer pressure from brothers is a really specific, very effective type of peer pressure. I think we've all probably done some things that we didn't want to do because our brothers peer pressured us into it. Is that correct?

• 16:48Mike Smith?

  Very.

• 16:49Jeff Larson?

  I can think of a few.

• 16:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah, me too. The water of the beach was about waist deep for a hundred meters out, kind of this sandbar almost, and the crab pots were about 50 meters out into that and then about 50 meters apart. And when these two were about halfway to the pots, they heard a big splash, but figured it might just be Gloria throwing something in the water to scare them, like throwing a log or something in the water. So they kept moving out. They got a few more meters out in the water when suddenly Gloria started screaming, alligator, alligator, alligator. If you've spent much time in the West, you know that every ski town has a brand that the locals are going to wear before the rest of the country catches on. In Jackson Hole, that brand is Steel.

• 17:32Wes Larson?

  Steel is designed and tested in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, right at the base of the Tetons by locals who ski, bike, climb, and fish there every day. I've spent a lot of time in Jackson Hole. I know that they deal with a lot of different weather there, a lot of different things. And so Steel really has to hold up in a ton of different environments. And they've been at it since 2011. 15 years in, it's the real gear that locals live in. It's made for the whole mountain day, beyond the summit, the first chair, the school run, dinner out, the dog walk when it's cold outside. It's just made for every moment of mountain life. And those are people that are living through Wyoming winters, so they really know warm. The hometown down jacket is 800 fill down, but it feels more like your favorite hoodie than it does a puffy.

• 18:16Wes Larson?

  And for me, I am really excited about the men's Furnos Maxx. Insulated jacket. I'm constantly looking for a jacket that just ticks all the boxes and this one really does. It's stretchy, it's breathable, it looks great, it keeps me super warm. It's just amazing. I just absolutely love this jacket. So ski season's almost here. Gear up now the way that the locals do. Go to stio.com/ tooth for 20% off your order. That's S T I O dot com slash tooth. stio.com/ tooth. stio, designed and tested in Jackson Hole.

• 18:53Wes Larson?

  So if your car breaks down, you're gonna take it to the mechanic to get it fixed. You know, it's something that you need, it's something that you use a lot, and it's not something that most people can fix by themselves. And really, if you're a man, you should probably think the same way about erectile dysfunction, or ED. You might be kind of hesitant to seek help, but it's something that you can get fixed. It's something that you use, hopefully, as often as you'd like to use. And

• 19:21Mike Smith?

  Often as your car.

• 19:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I don't know about that. But you can get access to personalized ED treatment without stepping outside your door with Hims. You don't need to really worry about this or make it a bigger deal than it needs to be.

• 19:36Mike Smith?

  I'm usually not gonna use it outside my door in the first place, so it's good to keep it within those walls.

• 19:41Wes Larson?

  I'm just saying, it's really easy with Hims to get access to really good quality medical advice and to get access to medication that can help you with ED. And I've used Hims for like hair care, and I really like the company. They make things really simple, and they're changing men's healthcare by providing you with access to affordable sexual health treatments from the comfort of your couch. They have an access to a range of doctor trusted ED treatments, like chewable hard mints.

• 20:13Wes Larson?

  Hard mints is an interesting term for that. Viagra, Cialis, and also just different generics for up to 95% cheaper discount on that medication. This process is 100% online, so there's no need for uncomfortable doctor visits. No insurance is needed, and one low price covers everything from treatments to ongoing care. And there are thousands and thousands of people that use this service, and they love it. So you guys can start your free online visit today at hims.com/tooth. That's H-I-M-S dot com slash tooth for your personalized ED treatment options. That's hims.com slash tooth.

• 20:56Wes Larson?

  The products mentioned are chewable compound products which are not approved or verified for safety or effectiveness by the FDA. Prescriptions require an online consultation with the healthcare provider who will determine if appropriate. Restrictions do apply. See website for details and important safety information. Subscription required. The price varies based on product and subscription plan.

• 21:19Wes Larson?

  We're going to talk a little bit about alligator biology. It's been a minute since we've done an episode completely devoted to them. Jeff, I think you did one last year about the guy who was collecting shark teeth and got attacked by an alligator.

• 21:31Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Wes Larson?

  But prior to that, I think our last main-

• 21:33Jeff Larson?

  Voodoo fossils on Instagram.

• 21:35Wes Larson?

  I think our last main before that was Tommy Woodward, which was one of our first episodes.

• 21:39Jeff Larson?

  I did one on that news story Mike brought up to the New Orleans-

• 21:45Wes Larson?

  That's right, the flood when it came swam into that guy's backyard. That's crazy. Was that a subscription episode? I think it was.

• 21:52Jeff Larson?

  It's all just getting blurred in there.

• 21:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Anyway, let's start with some basic facts. So alligators are crocodilians, which means they're in the same order as crocodiles, caiman, gareals, and tomastomas, or false gareals. So gareals, and I might be pronouncing that wrong, I'm sorry if I am. They're the crocodiles that have the really skinny snout that sticks way out with the big teeth that are perfect for catching fish. Critically endangered animals, but they are members of the same order.

• 22:20Jeff Larson?

  I guess I'll stop liking them.

• 22:21Wes Larson?

  They're two living species-

• 22:22Mike Smith?

  Save yourself the heartbreak.

• 22:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Mike Smith?

  When they inevitably die out.

• 22:26Wes Larson?

  Introduce people to new animals that are gonna die out the next year.

• 22:29Mike Smith?

  Sad.

• 22:30Jeff Larson?

  No.

• 22:30Wes Larson?

  There's two living species of alligator. There's the American alligator and the Chinese alligator. And the Chinese alligator likely split from the American alligator about thirty-three million years ago, made its way over the Bering Land Bridge and into China.

• 22:45Jeff Larson?

  What?

• 22:45Wes Larson?

  They're a much smaller alligator, and they are also critically endangered with only a few hundred left in the wild. But as much as we'd like to, we're not here to talk about the Chinese alligator. We're gonna talk about the American alligator.

• 22:58Jeff Larson?

  America.

• 22:59Wes Larson?

  America.

• 22:59Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Wes Larson?

  The bigger, more aggressive alligator, which, you know, adds up.

• 23:04Jeff Larson?

  America.

• 23:05Mike Smith?

  The alligator isn't on the Chinese Zodiac, is it? You would know, Jeff, you did an episode on that.

• 23:09Wes Larson?

  It's not.

• 23:10Mike Smith?

  You remember?

• 23:10Wes Larson?

  It's not, but they actually think that the inspiration for like the Chinese dragon may have come from the Chinese alligator.

• 23:20Mike Smith?

  Oh, interesting.

• 23:21Wes Larson?

  So in a way, it could be kind of represented on the Zodiac.

• 23:24Jeff Larson?

  I don't know, Wes, I don't see too many alligators breathing fire.

• 23:27Wes Larson?

  No, I don't think that was the inspiration, more just like the teeth and yeah.

• 23:33Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 23:34Mike Smith?

  Don't see a lot of alligators hoarding gold.

• 23:36Jeff Larson?

  They do have teeth.

• 23:38Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 23:39Wes Larson?

  All right, so like a lot of the animals we've talked about, especially ones that live in water, there are some unverified claims of absolutely massive alligators, much longer than fifteen feet. And there are enough of these claims that there is a study titled A Critical Analysis for Historical Size Record for the American alligator. So pretty much these authors were looking at some of these crazy claims of just alligators that were much bigger than any that we have on record. And specifically, they're looking at one from the late eighteen hundreds that said a twenty-seven-foot, seven-hundred-and-eighty-three-pound alligator had been caught in Louisiana.

• 24:16Jeff Larson?

  That's.

• 24:16Wes Larson?

  So those two, those two numbers don't match up very well, is the thing. A twenty-seven-foot, seven-hundred-and-eighty-three-pound alligator, seven-hundred-and-eighty-three pounds isn't that big for an alligator. Twenty-seven feet is huge, so this would be the skinniest alligator ever. It'd be like. A snake.

• 24:34Jeff Larson?

  It'd be like Wimby.

• 24:35Wes Larson?

  Who's Wimby?

• 24:36Mike Smith?

  Wemby Yama, Wemby Yama?

• 24:38Jeff Larson?

  NBA main prospect in San Antonio, but he's like super tall and skinny.

• 24:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it'd be like him. Anyway, they kind of put together this model that shows how weight should increase as size increases. And they showed that it's impossible that a twenty seven foot alligator would weigh that much. So they kind of made this claim seem like it was BS. And as far as the record goes, the biggest one ever that was caught on record, I think was about fifteen feet long and weighed a bit over a thousand pounds. So really, they don't get to these huge lengths that you sometimes hear reported in the news. And averages from.

• 25:17Jeff Larson?

  Two cars back to back.

• 25:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah, fifteen feet. Is that right? How long's a car? A car is a bit longer than that.

• 25:23Mike Smith?

  A bit longer.

• 25:24Jeff Larson?

  Car and a quarter back to back.

• 25:26Wes Larson?

  A car and a quarter?

• 25:27Jeff Larson?

  One car and then a quarter of a car, yeah. Or like two Fiat's maybe?

• 25:32Wes Larson?

  I feel like fifteen feet was a really good bus reference and you just skipped cars for some reason, but sure.

• 25:40Mike Smith?

  Small bus.

• 25:41Wes Larson?

  Okay, so averages for mature males is more in the eight to ten foot range, weights of like two hundred to three hundred pounds. And averages on females tend to be more like six to eight feet long and about a hundred to two hundred pounds. But they can get much bigger and much heavier than that. And it's hard to get a good average because they are so widespread. And they get a lot bigger or smaller depending on the area they live in and the habitat they live in. And overall, body size for them tends to get smaller as you move further north in their habitat. So we're gonna play a quick game.

• 26:11Jeff Larson?

  Kind of same with Americans.

• 26:13Wes Larson?

  As you move north?

• 26:14Jeff Larson?

  If you go south, they get big.

• 26:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's kind of true. The obesity stats do bear that out. There's a scientific principle too, and I forget what it's called. In mammals, as you move further north and south, they tend to get more compact, but also heavier. I don't know if that really applies to reptiles or not. Okay, so we're gonna play a quick game. Each of you are gonna name a state where alligators can currently be found. And you'll get a point for naming a correct state. You'll also get a bonus point if you name the state that's still on the board that has the highest population of alligators. Whoever has the most points at the end of this will get a $20 mystery gift that I'm gonna send to your house.

• 26:57Jeff Larson?

  How many states are there, do you wanna say?

• 26:59Wes Larson?

  Yes, there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 states. And if you miss it, like if you get the state wrong, it's gonna go to the other person. Okay?

• 27:11Jeff Larson?

  Got it.

• 27:11Wes Larson?

  Sure. Uh, let's see randomly, I'm gonna pick who's going first. Mike. Whoa. So you're trying to guess the state that has them and the state that has the most.

• 27:23Mike Smith?

  I'm gonna go with Florida is my first over number one overall pick.

• 27:27Wes Larson?

  You got one point, you did not get the state that has the most.

• 27:30Jeff Larson?

  No, dang it. I'll go with Louisiana.

• 27:33Wes Larson?

  Correct.

• 27:33Mike Smith?

  No.

• 27:34Wes Larson?

  Two points for Jeff.

• 27:34Mike Smith?

  That's what I was.

• 27:36Wes Larson?

  Whatever, I don't even care.

• 27:37Mike Smith?

  You can, so Louisiana and Florida have both been named.

• 27:39Jeff Larson?

  That would have been my first overall pick, by the way, too. Just cuz I felt like he's trying to trick us with Florida.

• 27:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah, no, I'm having fun though, still, this is great. Florida is number two for population, just so you know, it's off the board.

• 27:53Mike Smith?

  I think I remember you even have told us that before. I'm a real goofball here.

• 27:58Wes Larson?

  I'm still having fun though.

• 27:59Mike Smith?

  We did something similar.

• 28:00Wes Larson?

  Just having game time with my friends.

• 28:03Mike Smith?

  Okay, you're up. Uh, I'll go with South Carolina.

• 28:07Wes Larson?

  Correct, it is a state, it is not the state that has the next most highest population.

• 28:12Mike Smith?

  Forgot that that was still a thing.

• 28:14Jeff Larson?

  I think we're just naming states now, right?

• 28:16Wes Larson?

  We're not, we're not. Okay. We're still trying to get the highest population that's still on the board.

• 28:21Jeff Larson?

  I'll go with Georgia.

• 28:22Wes Larson?

  Correct, you have a state, it's not the highest that's on the board, the next highest is still on the board.

• 28:28Mike Smith?

  Uh, Texas?

• 28:29Wes Larson?

  Correct. So now it is four to three.

• 28:33Jeff Larson?

  Who's winning?

• 28:34Wes Larson?

  Well, Mike is winning, but he did go first.

• 28:36Mike Smith?

  Yeah, right.

• 28:37Jeff Larson?

  Okay. Texas.

• 28:38Wes Larson?

  So just so you know, it goes Louisiana, Florida, Texas, Georgia, those have all been named. Oh, and then the next one has also been named too, South Carolina is the next state that has the most. So Jeff, can you guess what's next that has the most?

• 28:52Jeff Larson?

  Gimme Bama.

• 28:54Wes Larson?

  Alabama, correct.

• 28:55Mike Smith?

  Alabama.

• 28:56Wes Larson?

  So that's two points. You got five. Mike, you still have four. The next four states are still on the board as far as the population size.

• 29:05Mike Smith?

  Mississippi?

• 29:07Wes Larson?

  Correct. You have six points. Jeff, you have five points. Can you say the next one?

• 29:14Jeff Larson?

  I want to go with Arkansas.

• 29:16Wes Larson?

  Got it.

• 29:16Mike Smith?

  Oh, wow.

• 29:17Wes Larson?

  Seven points. Mike?

• 29:19Mike Smith?

  North Carolina?

• 29:20Wes Larson?

  Good job. Eight points. Jeff, to win it all?

• 29:24Mike Smith?

  Uh-oh.

• 29:25Wes Larson?

  Last state.

• 29:25Jeff Larson?

  Oh, man, I almost need a map.

• 29:30Jeff Larson?

  What, what else, what else down in there?

• 29:34Wes Larson?

  You've named all the states in the deep south already.

• 29:37Jeff Larson?

  Unlike all the ones where they have ocean.

• 29:39Wes Larson?

  Mm-hmm. Well, in the deep south, yes. Ocean and alligators aren't really connected, so.

• 29:47Jeff Larson?

  So alligators in Virginia?

• 29:50Wes Larson?

  There used to be, but there aren't anymore. Every one small one wanders in, but that's not the last state. Mike?

• 29:56Mike Smith?

  Uh, Tennessee?

• 29:58Wes Larson?

  No.

• 29:59Jeff Larson?

  Missouri.

• 30:00Mike Smith?

  What is it?

• 30:01Wes Larson?

  No. Just keep naming states. Whoever gets it's gonna win.

• 30:04Jeff Larson?

  Mississippi?

• 30:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 30:05Mike Smith?

  Kentucky?

• 30:05Wes Larson?

  We already said Mississippi. Nope, not Kentucky.

• 30:08Mike Smith?

  Oklahoma?

• 30:09Wes Larson?

  There it is.

• 30:09Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 30:11Wes Larson?

  Mike, you won. Yep, alright. So the states are Louisiana with the most, then Florida, Texas, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Oklahoma with about a hundred alligators.

• 30:24Mike Smith?

  Wow.

• 30:25Wes Larson?

  So those are the states where they can be found. They do occasionally wander into other states like Virginia and Tennessee, but those are the ones with existing populations. They make some pretty cool noises. Uh, there's some of the more vocal reptiles, and they make a number of different vocalizations throughout their lives. When they're newborn, they make a really unique noise that kind of sounds like a chirp or a weird laser gun.

• 30:47Mike Smith?

  Laser gun.

• 30:48Wes Larson?

  Which I'm gonna play for both of you right now.

• 30:50Jeff Larson?

  Wait, do it yourself first.

• 30:52Wes Larson?

  Pew, pew, pew, pew.

• 31:01Wes Larson?

  So that is the sound of baby alligators.

• 31:03Jeff Larson?

  It sounds like throwing a rock on ice.

• 31:05Wes Larson?

  On ice, it really does.

• 31:07Mike Smith?

  Or at one of those water towers. Have you ever done that? You probably shouldn't do that. That's what it sounds like.

• 31:12Jeff Larson?

  I mean, it'd be a good idea if there's a fire, just.

• 31:15Mike Smith?

  Break the water tower.

• 31:18Wes Larson?

  Okay. They make that noise to tell their mom to dig them out of the nest. That's when they first make it. And then they continue it in their early life as a way to communicate with their mother and as a distress call. One of the other more interesting noises that adult alligators make is what's called a bellow. Bellowing is more common, or at least more noticeable in males. Both sexes actually can do it. And they bellow in order to communicate, to attract mates, and to kind of assert their dominance over other alligators. And when male alligators bellow, they raise their head and their tail out of the water, they force air into their lungs. And when they expel that air, it makes a really low frequency roaring sound. And that constitutes a bellow.

• 32:19Wes Larson?

  They also make this sub audible vibration through an infrasonic signal.

• 32:23Jeff Larson?

  Big opera singers, they like kind of got screwed over a bit, I feel like.

• 32:30Wes Larson?

  Why?

• 32:30Jeff Larson?

  Like a big old hefty opera singer, because like, they can bellow, they're like, pretty big. Any other animal, that'd be like their number one mating partner. I'm sure they still get girls, but I'm just saying. Who wouldn't? John Krasinski, just one sexiest man in the world. I don't think he could bellow nearly as good as those guys.

• 32:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah, you're probably right. Bellowing isn't like a sign of fitness in humans, but in alligators it is.

• 32:59Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Wes Larson?

  So if there's any big opera singers out there, big fat opera singers that need someone to talk to, Jeff understands.

• 33:07Jeff Larson?

  I sympathize.

• 33:08Mike Smith?

  Just hit them up in the DMs with an avatar of sexy. Like, serious, he'll respond to you immediately.

• 33:15Wes Larson?

  So males also make a sub audible vibration through an infrasonic signal that causes the water to vibrate and dance above their back. And a somewhat recent study showed that the resonance frequency of an alligator's bellow is a near perfect indicator of their overall size. So the hypothesis behind this study is that through bellowing, alligators can pretty much say, hey, I'm this big. So you should mate with me, or you should stay away from me. You know, it's kind of just a way for them to tell other alligators how big they are by their bellow.

• 33:50Jeff Larson?

  It's like when I bragged about benching 200 pounds, like that's how big I am.

• 33:54Wes Larson?

  Sure. Yeah, that's how much you can bench. Yeah. They're incredibly opportunistic predators. They eat a wide variety of food, including fish, mammals, birds, reptiles, crustaceans, invertebrates, and even fruit. There's a study that shows they help propagate certain fruit trees by eating fruit.

• 34:12Mike Smith?

  I like that. I always like that when they're part of the environment like the animals you wouldn't expect.

• 34:17Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, like when meat eaters eat fruit, I always kind of liked it.

• 34:21Wes Larson?

  They're actually ecosystem engineers, too. They create little pools that bring in a lot of water. And they are really important animals for where they're found.

• 34:30Mike Smith?

  Maybe Jordan Peterson should incorporate some fruit into that. I heard he is on the carnivore diet where he literally only eats meat. I'm just gonna say eat an apple every once in a while, Jordan. But what do I know?

• 34:42Wes Larson?

  When you see, not to attack any specific diet or anything, but when you see those influencers that are really into like the carnivore diets, or like the Liver King and all those people, they look like there's just something simmering in them, like that they're about to like explode.

• 35:00Jeff Larson?

  They always look like very red.

• 35:02Mike Smith?

  Red and glistening. Exactly. It's like you can see the cholesterol dripping off of them.

• 35:07Wes Larson?

  One other thing about alligators, they have the high, one of the highest bite forces in the animal kingdom, which means they can bite through hard substances like turtle shell or mammal bone. But they kind of have a kryptonite.

• 35:19Jeff Larson?

  Dude, what are turtle shells even good for? All these animals just biting through.

• 35:24Mike Smith?

  It's true. Good for breakdancing.

• 35:26Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they are good for breakdancing.

• 35:30Wes Larson?

  But that that hard bite force comes with kind of a kryptonite. Do you guys know what it is? They've got those really good muscles for closing their mouth.

• 35:39Jeff Larson?

  It's hard to open them, right?

• 35:41Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they got really weak.

• 35:42Jeff Larson?

  But does that really get them in trouble with anything but humans?

• 35:45Wes Larson?

  Not really. No. And that's probably why they evolved that way.

• 35:49Jeff Larson?

  We kind of are able to like, be like, look at this huge alligator and I can just pinch its mouth close.

• 35:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Their teeth are designed for gripping rather than chewing or tearing. So they'll often either swallow their prey whole or they'll stash larger prey, allowing it time to kind of rot and soften. And then they'll tear off smaller pieces that they can swallow whole. Attacks on humans are really rare, especially considering that we have somewhere around five million alligators in the South. And most attacks are a result of people either harassing or feeding alligators. Unprovoked attacks do happen sometimes and they generally happen when someone is swimming. And the alligator approaches that person with its head above the water. And there's a reason for that. And I think it's really interesting. If an alligator's head is above the water, its eyes are completely above the water.

• 36:40Wes Larson?

  So they're not seeing anything below the water. And if you're swimming and say you have just your head above the water or your shoulders above the water, you don't look that big to an alligator. You look like something that it can probably pretty easily attack and subdue because it's not seeing the majority of your body. So often when they do attack people in the water, the thought is that it's kind of mistaken identity. Where they think they're they're biting something that they can easily handle and they they realize afterwards that they can't. But often then they're like already engaged and kind of in that predator mode.

• 37:16Jeff Larson?

  That's like pretty much exactly how it happened to William when he was collecting the teeth.

• 37:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 37:23Mike Smith?

  Weird Al would be safe if he were swimming around? It always seems like he has just a huge head to me when I see pictures of him. The bigger the head, the better. That's all I'm saying.

• 37:32Wes Larson?

  That's true. Fluff your hair out, you know?

• 37:35Mike Smith?

  Bigger brain, probably.

• 37:36Wes Larson?

  You should be cautious about swimming in freshwater where alligators live because you can trigger that kind of predatory response.

• 37:43Mike Smith?

  Donovan Mitchell, Jeff, he'd be safe.

• 37:46Jeff Larson?

  His head is normal.

• 37:46Wes Larson?

  I got a big head for my body especially.

• 37:49Mike Smith?

  Wes, your head is huge. It's crazy, actually.

• 37:53Wes Larson?

  All right. So attacks on humans. I could find data on 41 fatalities from alligators since 1957. During that timeframe, there were also a few hundred injuries. Each source I found was reporting different numbers. So I do think there was somewhere between 300 and 400 injuries since 1957 to the present. It's important to note that a lot of those injuries are from alligators that had been fed or provoked. So while they do attack and kill the occasional person, it's nowhere near the number that crocodiles do.

• 38:25Mike Smith?

  I remember when I was little and things have probably changed, maybe, I don't know. I don't want to say for sure. But when I was little, we were living in Georgia and my dad heard about this good spot to see alligators up in South Carolina. So we just drove up there and it was a totally unregulated thing. There was like a hole in a fence that people could just like sneak down a little slope to. And people were just like throwing stuff into the water, like children, unsupervised. It was really, really crazy to see.

• 38:54Jeff Larson?

  And there's alligators in there?

• 38:55Mike Smith?

  Yeah, there's tons of alligators. Just they knew that was the spot to get.

• 38:59Wes Larson?

  Children into the water, though. Children were throwing things into the water.

• 39:02Mike Smith?

  I didn't see any children being thrown, but you have to imagine accidentally every once in a while.

• 39:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I mean, this isn't a hard animal to see. If you want to see alligators in the wild, just go to the Everglades and you will see alligators in the wild. I can almost 100% guarantee it. There's a couple of places you can stop where you will see them.

• 39:23Jeff Larson?

  What are the cases they wouldn't see them, you think?

• 39:26Wes Larson?

  If you just drove the main road and never stopped at like any water sources, then yeah, you might not see them. But if you-

• 39:32Jeff Larson?

  If you're blind.

• 39:33Mike Smith?

  If you're hard of seeing.

• 39:34Wes Larson?

  But if you do the tiniest bit of, yeah, of research, you can find places where you have almost a guaranteed chance of seeing alligators.

• 39:43Jeff Larson?

  Maybe if you're like a baby, you wouldn't really see them.

• 39:46Wes Larson?

  Or you might not just register. You might see it. Who's that?

• 39:50Mike Smith?

  Harbaugh?

• 39:51Jeff Larson?

  The Chargers coach who said he remembers like the day he was born and driving home from the hospital.

• 39:57Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah, he would remember it. He'd see the alligator and he'd know what it is. Yeah. All right. So Wayne and Joel, his brother, are waist deep in the water.

• 40:04Mike Smith?

  He'd probably remember the doctor trying to name him something else that his parents didn't want.

• 40:10Wes Larson?

  John, that's not a John. That's a bubba. That's a bubba.

• 40:14Jeff Larson?

  That's a bubba.

• 40:15Mike Smith?

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• 41:00Mike Smith?

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• 41:36Jeff Larson?

  Tooth and Claw is brought to you by Element. Element helps anyone stay hydrated without sugar or other dodgy ingredients found in popular electrolyte and sports drinks. We all love Element. Wes, I don't know how he keeps up with how much Element we have, but he does. He's down in those things.

• 41:55Wes Larson?

  I've had to order it.

• 41:56Jeff Larson?

  It really is just your body telling you like, hey, I like this, you know? Keep at it, buddy.

• 42:01Wes Larson?

  And my taste buds, my taste buds tell me they like it too.

• 42:04Jeff Larson?

  Right.

• 42:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah. That's what he's saying.

• 42:06Jeff Larson?

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• 42:21Wes Larson?

  Can't trust the government. Never.

• 42:23Jeff Larson?

  Especially like those health pyramids are just out the window for me.

• 42:29Wes Larson?

  We're not supposed to eat like 50 servings of grains every day.

• 42:33Jeff Larson?

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• 43:14Jeff Larson?

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• 43:41Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's great when you get a gift from someone that you're allowed to return if you don't really want it or like it. I love when brands do that.

• 43:52Wes Larson?

  Wayne and his brother Joel are waist deep in the water. They're about 30 meters from shore and Joel's wife Gloria is screaming that she sees an alligator in the water. Wayne looks around and at first he doesn't see anything, but then he sees a large 10 and a half foot reptile speeding toward him in the water. And it was moving so fast he could see it leaving a wake behind it. He started running through the waist deep water, trying to get to shore. But that's really slow going. If you've ever tried to run through waist deep water, it's not very fast.

• 44:22Jeff Larson?

  Well, especially I feel like those type of waterways get a lot of mud on the bottom.

• 44:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah. It's not like he's running over rocks. He's trudging through mud. And he sees that the alligator is quickly closing in on them. He looks at his brother, one of the people he loves most in the world. And he makes the decision that he would rather the alligator come after him than after his brother. So he starts splashing aggressively in the water, trying to draw the alligator toward him. It works. The alligator starts coming toward him, but then as it goes towards Wayne, Joel starts doing the same thing. He starts splashing and the alligator turns back toward him again.

• 45:04Mike Smith?

  Oh, they're making it dizzy.

• 45:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah, both brothers don't want the alligator to get their brother. And they're taking turns splashing and drawing the alligator back and forth. And this actually kinda seems to be working, like it's kinda confusing the alligator. They're about 10 meters from shore and suddenly the alligator kind of realizes what's going on. And it focuses in on Wayne and it lunges forward toward the water.

• 45:29Speaker 03

  The alligator lunged. It was out to get me.

• 45:37Wes Larson?

  Wayne puts his arm out to try and push off the alligator, but it turns, opens his mouth. And Wayne suddenly sees in slow motion, as he describes it, these jaws full of teeth clamping down on his arm. And he remembers in detail the feeling of these teeth puncturing through his flesh on his arm. And the sensation of his arm bones crunching and snapping under the pressure of the jaws.

• 46:01Jeff Larson?

  Geez, stiff arm's a good move, too. That's too bad that the alligator had its mouth open.

• 46:10Wes Larson?

  It was hissing as it bit into his arm. And then he, over the hiss, heard a loud snap as his arm completely broke. And he saw the water turn red around the head of the alligator as his blood started gushing out. With his time in the National Guard and countless hours out in the outdoors. He'd always felt really strong and capable and thought that he could kind of take on anything. But he remembers feeling completely helpless and out of control with his arm in this alligator's mouth. And that feeling intensified when this alligator started rolling. So you guys remember what a death roll is, right?

• 46:44Mike Smith?

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:45Wes Larson?

  So do you remember kind of the purposes of a death roll for an alligator?

• 46:49Jeff Larson?

  I know that they're like trying to drown a person and also, like you said, they don't really chew. They need to swallow things so that that's how they rip off chunks of what they're eating.

• 47:02Wes Larson?

  Right. So my thought, and again, I'm not an alligator expert or biologist, but I do know a fair amount about them. I've I've trapped them in the wild. I've called, I mean, I've tagged them. I've done a few things with alligators. My thought is that this alligator was probably realizing that this was like a bigger prey item than it had thought. And it's now just trying to rip his arm off because that is like enough for it to kind of leave with and be happy with, you know? So I do think at this point, it's just trying to separate his arm from his body.

• 47:33Mike Smith?

  That is an interesting thought because you did, you brought up the fact that they see us as a lot smaller than we really are. And then it's probably a big surprise to them when we're just a massive thing. And all of a sudden they're contending with something that's pretty equally sized to them. So I'm sure they're afraid too.

• 47:51Jeff Larson?

  It seems to the, that wasn't like its intention until the person stuck his arm out as it was like lunging, you know?

• 47:59Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I, and we'll talk about this a little later. I kind of think that this might have been a defensive kind of territorial attack to start, but then once it had his arm in his mouth, it was like, okay, you know, I'm gonna try and rip this off.

• 48:13Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Wes Larson?

  Right. Anyway. Wayne felt himself get lifted off his feet. He was violently rolled through the water. And then suddenly the alligator stopped and simply held him underwater. And he looked up through the water, through his own blood. And he could see the trees on the shore of the river, and he could even see the faint shapes of his brother Joel and his wife Gloria running around trying to figure out how to help him. He tried his best to hold his breath, but it was really hard and that makes a lot of sense to me. It's hard to hold your breath anyway. And if you're being held under the water by an alligator, that's gotta be insanely.

• 48:48Jeff Larson?

  That like just made you do like a whole flip in the air.

• 48:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I always think about that when the, when we have these stories of people that have to hold their breath. Like, yeah, if you are really focusing and whatnot, you can probably hold your breath for a couple of minutes. But when someone pushes your head underwater. You feel like you need air immediately, you know, it's this primal need for air.

• 49:11Jeff Larson?

  Go run like a hundred yard sprint and then try to hold your breath.

• 49:14Wes Larson?

  Then try to hold your breath. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it is a lot trickier than than just holding your breath. But he realized he might die if he didn't fight back. So he starts punching the alligator, but he said it felt like hitting a tank. And his hand is just bouncing off of these osteoderms on the alligator's back.

• 49:31Mike Smith?

  He was a Navy SEAL, right?

• 49:33Wes Larson?

  Yeah, no, he wasn't.

• 49:34Mike Smith?

  You would know it's like punching a tank.

• 49:36Wes Larson?

  Army National Guard. That's, that's right. Army don't punch tanks, Navy SEALs do. If you remember though, alligators have osteoderms, which are essentially like bony plates right under their skin. They have this built in armor. And when I've caught them, they really do feel so much harder than you ever would imagine.

• 49:56Jeff Larson?

  You gotta go for gut punches.

• 49:58Wes Larson?

  On their back. Yeah. For what punches?

• 50:00Jeff Larson?

  Gut punches.

• 50:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah, and even their like ventral scales are really tough too. They're just, they're really well built animal. They're hard to hurt.

• 50:08Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 50:10Wes Larson?

  But in the response to this struggle, the alligator pushes Wayne a little deeper in the water and actually holds him down against the river bottom. And Wayne looks out into the water and he gets a good look at his mangled left arm. And he remembers being able to see tendons, bone, and strips of flesh just kind of floating and splayed out in the water. And he realized his arm is so ripped up that he could hardly believe it was his own arm.

• 50:35Jeff Larson?

  Wait, how did he get out of the water?

• 50:37Wes Larson?

  He's not. He's underwater looking at his arm.

• 50:39Jeff Larson?

  Oh, I see.

• 50:40Wes Larson?

  In the water. Yeah. And then the alligator starts rolling again. The pain starts setting in and Wayne feels his strength leaving. And he starts realizing that this is how he's going to die. And when he's about to let go, the face of his son starts flashing through his head. And he knows that if he dies.

• 50:58Mike Smith?

  Bubba.

• 50:59Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Little Bubba Robert, his son would grow up without a dad. So the alligator is carrying Wayne further out in the river and he starts choking on the water. But in that moment, when things were looking as bad as they possibly could be, he suddenly feels an overwhelming sense of peace and he swears that he hears a voice telling him to stay completely still. So he does it. He goes completely still and the alligator, maybe thinking that it had finally killed its prey, brought Wayne up to the surface where he took a huge rasping breath.

• 51:31Mike Smith?

  Wow.

• 51:32Wes Larson?

  The alligator then starts pushing Wayne toward the shore and Wayne knew a bit about alligators and he thought maybe the alligator thought he was dead and was searching for a log or somewhere to stash and cache his body. So it was probably looking for a place to cache him and Wayne realized that. And as he was heading toward the shore with the alligator, he turned his head again toward his arm, which was still in its mouth and he saw that it was now so shredded that not much was keeping his forearm attached to the rest of his arm and that he might actually lose it to the alligator.

• 52:05Jeff Larson?

  He's gonna go 127 hours on it?

• 52:08Wes Larson?

  Yeah, just pulls out his pocket knife and cuts it off.

• 52:11Mike Smith?

  Drinks his own pee.

• 52:12Jeff Larson?

  Or just use the alligator cut off the arm.

• 52:15Wes Larson?

  He didn't do that. Wayne really didn't want to lose his left arm.

• 52:18Mike Smith?

  Drink the alligator's pee, maybe.

• 52:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah, he wouldn't. I don't think he would have the problem with water.

• 52:25Mike Smith?

  Hmm, that's good.

• 52:27Wes Larson?

  He, he tries to pull his left arm out of the alligator's mouth with his right arm and in a flash, the alligator changes its grip, open and closes its mouth down now on his right arm and forearm as well. And he hears the bones snapping in that arm as well.

• 52:43Jeff Larson?

  Both arms are in its mouth?

• 52:44Wes Larson?

  Both arms. He has two broken arms now and they're both in the alligator's mouth.

• 52:48Jeff Larson?

  Oh no.

• 52:49Wes Larson?

  And he's realizing that any minute this gator might start rolling again and it could try and drown him again. So he's bracing himself for the worst when suddenly he feels Joel's arms wrap around him and his brother's trying to pull him out of the water and away from the alligator.

• 53:05Mike Smith?

  Wow. That's like the ultimate Chinese finger trap. You know, those little things where you're like, both your fingers get stuck?

• 53:12Wes Larson?

  And you gotta push them together.

• 53:13Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Jeff gave those to our little, our nephew and nieces and they sure had a time with them. They just shredded them. It's rhythm.

• 53:23Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Jeff Larson?

  Ben's fingers were stuck and he just couldn't get him out and he was like getting mad at me for giving it to him.

• 53:31Wes Larson?

  Well, and Ellie just tore it apart immediately. And she's like, I figured it out.

• 53:34Mike Smith?

  Ellie's smart.

• 53:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Anyway, so Joel is inadvertently, he started this game of tug of war over Wayne with this alligator. And he's pulling on Wayne, he's punching the alligator. It's really not having much effect, but he is able to gain some ground and pull Wayne and the alligator in closer to shore where Gloria was waiting. And guess what Gloria had? That's right. She had a big old stick. Ready to hit this alligator with the stick.

• 54:03Mike Smith?

  The old Teddy Roosevelt.

• 54:04Wes Larson?

  Yep. She started clubbing the alligator with the stick and then pushed one end of the stick into its eye and just shoved down with all of her force.

• 54:14Jeff Larson?

  Oh, nice.

• 54:15Wes Larson?

  And that, yeah, that was finally enough to get this gator to release its grip. And Wayne and Joel didn't waste any time scrambling away from the alligator and up on shore. Joel had a second to catch his breath and then he looked over at his brother Wayne's arm and lost his breath again. On his left arm, both of the bones were clearly visible, sticking out of his forearm, his radius and his ulna. They're broken in several places and they were just sticking out of this ragged flesh and tendons. And then his right forearm was also torn open and at least one bone was broken and visible there as well. It kind of looked like he'd put both of his forearms into an industrial meat grinder.

• 54:55Jeff Larson?

  Ugh.

• 54:56Wes Larson?

  They were seven and a half miles from the nearest main road and Wayne was thinking he might still bleed out. And Joel agreed with him. It was kind of funny because he said, like, I was thinking I was gonna die and Joel was telling me I was gonna die.

• 55:11Wes Larson?

  I feel like usually the person helping is like, it's gonna be okay. Don't worry. And it sounds like Joel was like, oh, you're gonna die.

• 55:17Jeff Larson?

  That's like good reverse psychology for someone dying though. Cause I do feel like when you're like, don't worry, you're gonna make it. The person's kind of like, I don't think I'm gonna make it. But if you're like, you're about to die, the person might be like, F you dude.

• 55:33Wes Larson?

  No, I'm not. Especially with your brother. You're like, no, you, what? Shut up dude. You don't know.

• 55:38Jeff Larson?

  That's smart.

• 55:39Wes Larson?

  It is. Speaking of smart, they knew they were gonna need a tourniquet and they looked around for a good thing that could serve as a tourniquet. And Gloria took off her bikini top and they used it as a tourniquet to stop the bleeding. Wow. So maybe this was just the most elaborate plan ever for Wayne to finally see his sister-in-law topless. Who knows? I did actually, I do know that's not what it was. Definitely not. Who knows?

• 56:07Jeff Larson?

  Crazy joke.

• 56:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 56:10Jeff Larson?

  But I liked it.

• 56:12Wes Larson?

  And remember, the tourniquet, tight it, keep it tight and don't loosen it at all. Just don't loosen it for any reason.

• 56:18Jeff Larson?

  Bra probably is a pretty good thing to make a tourniquet out of.

• 56:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it was kind of elastic-y, so it worked really well.

• 56:26Jeff Larson?

  What's that movement called? Free the?

• 56:28Wes Larson?

  The nipple?

• 56:28Jeff Larson?

  Free the nipple or something?

• 56:30Wes Larson?

  I don't know. They had some coolers with beers, so they had a lot of ice and they packed his arm in ice. Joel reached for his cellphone. This is 2001, so not too many people have cellphones, but Joel did have one. He reached for it and realized it had been in his pocket during this entire water rescue. So both brothers-

• 56:49Jeff Larson?

  Nokia might be alright.

• 56:50Wes Larson?

  Both brothers were sure it wasn't gonna work, but he managed to get a single call in to 911. And then the phone died. Yeah, it died after that and wouldn't work again.

• 56:59Jeff Larson?

  Oh wow.

• 57:00Wes Larson?

  But he did get one call out.

• 57:01Jeff Larson?

  That's so lucky.

• 57:02Wes Larson?

  The ambulance they got ahold of was gonna take a long time to get to them. They knew that after talking to 911. But there had been some Marines training in the area and they had actually heard the emergency distress call over the scanner. So not the call to 911, but I think the resulting calls of them trying to contact paramedics and stuff. The Marines had picked up that chatter and they went to where Wayne had been attacked. They showed up, they helped stabilize him, and then they helped him get him to the nearest pavement where a Marine ambulance showed up and drove him to the nearest hospital.

• 57:37Jeff Larson?

  Oh wow.

• 57:38Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 57:39Jeff Larson?

  That'd be crazy if you're, if you're them, like you're just waiting for the ambulance and then a bunch of Marines pop out of the trees.

• 57:46Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 57:49Mike Smith?

  Those Marines wouldn't have a problem punching a tank, I bet.

• 57:52Wes Larson?

  No, they could have. Yeah, they would just punch that alligator into oblivion.

• 57:58Wes Larson?

  Anyway, the doctors and nurses said his arms were way worse than anything they had ever seen. They were almost certain that they were going to have to amputate his left arm. Wayne ended up staying in the hospital for 17 days and during that recovery, he had over a dozen surgeries. But doctors were able to save his arms and they did a skin graft to try and make it look a little bit better. From his leg, they took some skin, but he actually says the skin graft was maybe the most painful thing he experienced.

• 58:25Mike Smith?

  Oh, weird.

• 58:26Wes Larson?

  I do have, I have a photo of it. It's pretty gnarly. Mike, are you prepared to see it?

• 58:31Jeff Larson?

  Those always look so bad when it like first happens, but then I think it ends up looking okay. But at the start, it's like that, that doesn't work. What are we doing?

• 58:41Wes Larson?

  People got mad at me once for making Mike see Timothy Treadwell's photos.

• 58:46Mike Smith?

  I didn't want to see it, dude.

• 58:48Wes Larson?

  Are you, are you prepared to see?

• 58:50Mike Smith?

  I consent.

• 58:51Wes Larson?

  Skin graft. Okay, you consent to see it. Thank you. All right. So you can see. They took like, it's like a.

• 58:58Jeff Larson?

  Like a lawnmower patch.

• 59:00Wes Larson?

  Inch and a half wide and probably nine inch patch of skin just from the top of his leg. And in this photo, it just looks like it's like red and raw and they attach that to his arm.

• 59:11Jeff Larson?

  Bandaged.

• 59:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 59:12Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 59:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah. It's pretty gnarly. Yeah. His arm too, just to describe it, it's like his wrist and his elbow look normal size, but then the middle is just missing a good deal of the mass. And to this day, that's what his arm looks like. It kind of just looks like an hourglass.

• 59:29Jeff Larson?

  Like a Frankenstein arm, kinda.

• 59:31Wes Larson?

  Pretty rough, but he is really happy not to have lost his arm, obviously. He does credit Joel and Gloria was saving his life. He also thinks learning how to take a punch and like be tough as a kid helped him be tough enough to survive this attack. And Joel actually broke his thumb hitting the alligator. His brother, when he was punching it, trying to get it to release, he did break his thumb.

• 59:53Mike Smith?

  How long did he stay in the hospital?

• 59:55Wes Larson?

  I don't know. Do you think he just kept saying like, well, Wayne, it wasn't just you.

• 59:59Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 59:59Wes Larson?

  I also did break my thumb. And you embarrassed my wife.

• 1:00:06Wes Larson?

  Wayne wasn't strong enough to hold his son right after the surgeries. And he let that really motivate him to go really hard on his physical therapy. Because he really wanted to be able to hold and pick up his son again. And two broken arms and plus all this like skin grafting and stuff. That's rough. That'd be really hard to recover from.

• 1:00:25Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I like how big a part his newborn son played in this story. Just his face appearing in his brain when he was under the water. This is really cool. I like that.

• 1:00:35Wes Larson?

  Wayne's, he's a really good guy. I really, as you're watching his interview, as I was watching his interview, I could just feel some people, you just get that sense of like kindness emanating from them. And I could feel that with him. You can tell he's like a good person. He really cared about being a good dad. And he actually, the alligator was killed and the beach was close to swimming. But he did say that he didn't blame this alligator at all. They think it might have been a female alligator defending a nest. And Wayne just kind of said, you know, they're animals like they do what comes naturally to them. And I was in its habitat. So I did really like Wayne.

• 1:01:12Jeff Larson?

  Did they even catching crabs?

• 1:01:14Wes Larson?

  I don't know if they caught any crabs. Yeah, it's a good question.

• 1:01:17Speaker 03

  It's kind of like life. We choose what waters we go in. I won't choose to go at town point no more. I choose to go to the pool. They hate no alligators in the pool.

• 1:01:30Wes Larson?

  All right, guys. Well, before we go on to our categories, let's talk about our ouchies. What do you guys think?

• 1:01:36Mike Smith?

  Yeah, we probably should.

• 1:01:38Jeff Larson?

  Should we do like a refresher that I feel like I always need to say this just because I give numbers that people are like, that's insane. But this is just based off of like the worst animal attacks ever. So all, every number is like pretty bad.

• 1:01:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah, for me, like for me, a 10 is someone, the standard is Cynthia Dussel Bacon, who got both her arms chewed off by a black bear. He had to deal with a lifetime of trauma after that. So.

• 1:02:06Mike Smith?

  Hours and hours of suffering through an attack and then everything that comes with that afterward.

• 1:02:11Jeff Larson?

  You know, I think I'm going to give this one a nine.

• 1:02:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's a pretty good one.

• 1:02:16Jeff Larson?

  I think like for someone to like live after an animal attack, he's got a lot of damage to have to deal with the rest of his life from this one.

• 1:02:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I'm gonna go with an eight, I think. No, I don't know, nine sounds maybe right. Eight and a half, do we do half points?

• 1:02:34Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:34Wes Larson?

  I don't know if there's any rules.

• 1:02:35Jeff Larson?

  Mine was an eight when it just had the one arm, but then once it got both arms.

• 1:02:41Mike Smith?

  You know what, Mike, the thing that pushes it up to a nine for me maybe is the picture of his leg. That looked just so bad. Just a strip of his leg.

• 1:02:50Wes Larson?

  The doctors are just like, you know what, let's fuck up his leg.

• 1:02:53Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:54Jeff Larson?

  The doctor's like, here, bite this stick. We're gonna take some skin off your leg. Like, it just feels like he wasn't on pain meds, so you didn't have bandages.

• 1:03:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it was a little rough. I'm gonna go eight. I think it was really bad. And I think the trauma of it all, being held underwater by an alligator, having both arms broken. But for me, for me, a nine is like someone that can't walk away from their attack.

• 1:03:20Mike Smith?

  Yeah, maybe you're right.

• 1:03:21Wes Larson?

  A 10 is like either someone that's just horrifically mauled or killed. So this is an eight for me. But yeah.

• 1:03:28Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I'll go with eight too.

• 1:03:29Wes Larson?

  You got me.

• 1:03:30Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:31Wes Larson?

  You got me, Wes.

• 1:03:32Jeff Larson?

  To me, the survivors are worse than people who die for like how much it hurt.

• 1:03:38Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it depends on how, how long it takes for them to die and stuff, but I agree. I think the mental trauma should be put into that, too. So I'm in a five star hotel right now in Thailand. I'm sitting on the bed. It's a great bed. It's amazing. I'm still dreaming of my bed back home. And that's because it's a Brooklyn Bedding bed. I have the Sedona Elite from Brooklyn Bedding. I absolutely love it. Every night I look forward to just climbing into bed and going to sleep because it's such a good mattress. And that's because Brooklyn Bedding has been assembling top tier mattresses for over 30 years in their Arizona factory. There's no middlemen, there's no gimmicks, just top tier quality, honest pricing, and real American craftsmanship for a better night's sleep.

• 1:04:20Wes Larson?

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• 1:05:05Wes Larson?

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• 1:05:16Mike Smith?

  So 2024, we did a lot of international traveling, right, guys? We did. And you know, I struggle pretty badly, especially on the return trip with jet lag. I'm kind of going through it right now inexplicably. It's been a while since my last flight.

• 1:05:29Jeff Larson?

  It's insane that you just gave yourself jet lag for no reason recently.

• 1:05:34Mike Smith?

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• 1:06:04Jeff Larson?

  I like the brownie batter one.

• 1:06:06Mike Smith?

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• 1:06:48Mike Smith?

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• 1:06:56Wes Larson?

  All right, uh, let's move on to our categories. So the first one I asked you guys is a favorite brother rescue scene from media, from movies or TV, a favorite scene where brothers are rescuing each other.

• 1:07:10Mike Smith?

  I'm gonna go with It's a Wonderful Life. The opening scene where George Bailey jumps in the frozen pond to save his brother.

• 1:07:18Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:18Mike Smith?

  Just the start of a beautiful brother ship, if that's a word. Uh, that's the new Mario and Luigi game. Brothership? That's not a word.

• 1:07:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I don't think so. Brotherhood?

• 1:07:29Mike Smith?

  Brotherhood, I guess, yeah, probably. Um, but I also, I can't not shout out when Pollux jumps in on the fight in the prison in Face Off to help Castor. He gets involved. I always really like that part.

• 1:07:42Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's a good one.

• 1:07:43Mike Smith?

  I kind of forget because he's always treated as the kid brother who can't do anything for himself. He even gets his, his shoes tied for him by Castor. So when it, when he jumps in that fight, I'm always like, yeah. Pollux can do it. He can fight for himself too.

• 1:07:57Jeff Larson?

  I love when he ties his shoes, but he could like make a nuke.

• 1:08:00Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 1:08:01Wes Larson?

  I love when two brothers are evil too. Like they're both just like, yeah, we're both gonna be crazy criminals.

• 1:08:07Mike Smith?

  Terrible criminals.

• 1:08:08Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:08Jeff Larson?

  That one doesn't count though, because it wasn't actually Castor.

• 1:08:12Mike Smith?

  That's true.

• 1:08:12Jeff Larson?

  It's a switch faces.

• 1:08:16Mike Smith?

  Jeff, what's your answer?

• 1:08:18Jeff Larson?

  I had, uh, Scar and Mufasa, if you watch it in reverse. Then Scar is just saving Mufasa.

• 1:08:25Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 1:08:27Jeff Larson?

  Uh, but also I had from Friday Night Lights, the TV show when the Riggins brothers, they have like their auto shop.

• 1:08:36Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:36Jeff Larson?

  And then the older brother is, people are stealing cars and he's breaking them down for parts.

• 1:08:43Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Jeff Larson?

  And then the cops come and he, yeah, chop shop. And he's, and Tim Riggins, he doesn't know, he's just have, he's like happy for the first time ever. But then the cops come and he's like, you know what, brother? You're about to have your son. I'll go to jail for you. And his brother's like, I love you, man. I love you so much. God damn, Texas forever.

• 1:09:06Wes Larson?

  Uh, I'm gonna pick Legends of the Fall. Just rewatched it. One of my favorite directors, Ed Zwick.

• 1:09:13Jeff Larson?

  And they don't really save the brother.

• 1:09:15Wes Larson?

  No, but they're, he tries. And there's a rescue scene where little Samuel is caught in the barbed wire and the Germans really slowly are setting up their machine gun to mow him down. And Brad Pitt sees it, charges out, jumps the barrier, shoots the Germans dead. But they still manage to shoot Samuel first. But then he gets to his brother as he's dying and gets to say goodbye. And otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to say goodbye. So at least he gets to do that. Um, and then yeah, gets revenge, scalps them all.

• 1:09:46Jeff Larson?

  Of our family, I'm the youngest and Wes is the middle. So he would be Brad Pitt and I would be the one dying in the barbed wire.

• 1:09:55Wes Larson?

  And Tristan's also obsessed with, with grizzly bears, you know? So, there you go. But Samuel was everyone's favorite. And you're everyone's favorite, Jeff. So it all adds up. All right. Next category. Favorite thing to do with your brothers.

• 1:10:10Jeff Larson?

  Samuel wasn't even his girlfriend's favorite.

• 1:10:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah, but she was. But she, she didn't realize it yet. She just got seduced.

• 1:10:18Jeff Larson?

  She had that little scene with Tristan before you had died.

• 1:10:21Wes Larson?

  He seduced her though. He's a bad brother. Yeah.

• 1:10:26Jeff Larson?

  What was the question?

• 1:10:27Wes Larson?

  Favorite thing to do with your brothers. We all got brothers. Me and Jeff only have brothers. Mike.

• 1:10:32Jeff Larson?

  Me and Wes will have the same answer.

• 1:10:34Wes Larson?

  Uh, yeah, I do think we will. But you can say it. Say it.

• 1:10:37Jeff Larson?

  Uh, fly fishing.

• 1:10:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it is my favorite thing.

• 1:10:41Jeff Larson?

  I think it's like where we're all the most equals too. We all are like pretty decent at dry fly fishing, especially like,

• 1:10:49Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:50Jeff Larson?

  we have favorite spots. All of us kind of have our own unique styles, but we're all like pretty capable of catching some fish. And it's just nice. Being in the Montana wilderness, three brothers catching some fish.

• 1:11:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I think you're a little bit better than me, but I do think we're all pretty close.

• 1:11:09Jeff Larson?

  I don't see it.

• 1:11:09Mike Smith?

  You're like a pro. People hire you to go do it with them.

• 1:11:13Jeff Larson?

  I guided, but it was like a very different type of fly fishing, like dry fly fishing. I wouldn't say I'm any better than Wes.

• 1:11:21Wes Larson?

  Hmm. Mike, what's your answer?

• 1:11:22Mike Smith?

  I'm gonna go, so I'm actually gonna split it up because me and my two brothers each have our own like things that we do with each other. So my brother Nate and I, we, most recently, we've been doing some Muay Thai, um, working out in a gym. And that's been really, really fun, super, super hard. But we also just love going out, especially for sushi, just finding a place to go out and eat some lunch together. And then my brother Garrett, the oldest brother, we started a, a new annual tradition of watching all the Matrix movies together. Cause we're the only two people in the world that like the sequels as much as each other. So that's been a really fun thing to connect over.

• 1:11:59Mike Smith?

  And we like, as we're doing it, we'll talk about the philosophy and we'll do a bunch of like pre-gaming and watch some, just a bunch of like YouTube videos, exploring the deeper themes that are incorporated into the story and stuff. It's just really fun. It's been a really great exercise.

• 1:12:15Wes Larson?

  Are you about to do that? And that's why you're wearing a black turtleneck?

• 1:12:18Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I do kinda look like I'm ready to go thief a diamond or something.

• 1:12:24Wes Larson?

  Uh, you know, I, I agree with Jeff, like fly fishing is my number one. I really like just playing card games with my brothers too. Like we really like that as a family, but when both Jeff and Cyrus are there, it's just really funny and fun. And I just feel like I can do it for hours without getting tired of it. Just, just because it's fun to kind of make fun of each other in a, in a lighthearted way like that. So I really, that's really fun for me.

• 1:12:48Jeff Larson?

  It's fun wrestling too. It's just kinda like a big hugging match.

• 1:12:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's how we hug.

• 1:12:55Wes Larson?

  All right. I wanted to do, what would Mike and Jeff do? So let's say your brother is out there in the water, getting tacked by a gator. You really wanna pull your crab pots, but you haven't been able to pull them yet. What are you doing?

• 1:13:09Jeff Larson?

  I have something that I think might actually not be completely stupid this time.

• 1:13:14Wes Larson?

  All right, all right.

• 1:13:16Jeff Larson?

  I feel like alligators, especially once they get like pretty big, really have two weaknesses. Their eyeballs. And also one that you brought up Wes, that they can't really open their mouth very well if you're holding their mouth. So I was thinking like where he stuck his arm out to try to like stiff arm the alligator. It made it like pretty easy. It seems like for the alligator to just bite his arm.

• 1:13:41Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:41Jeff Larson?

  And like as a moment of panic, you don't know what to do. But I think I have seen videos where people can like pull their arm out before the alligator actually bites it. So if you time it just right, you could pull your arm back and then close its mouth and just hold its mouth closed.

• 1:13:59Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I think if you were really, really good with alligators, you could do that. They are incredibly fast at how quickly they can turn and clamp their mouth down. So I would never say that should be your strategy. But you should try to make sure it never opens its mouth to begin with. But if, if, yeah, if you can get its mouth closed. I don't know by not being in the water with it. I'll get into that. But Mike, why don't you do your, what would Mike and Jeff do?

• 1:14:26Mike Smith?

  I was thinking maybe there was a moment where I know this came up. I don't know exactly how, but the alligator thought he might have been dead, but he wasn't really quite yet. So I would just pretend to be dead immediately after five seconds, just go completely limp. And then maybe it'll loosen its jaws a little bit and I could do what Jeff's thinking. Pull the arm out real quick and hug the jaws closed.

• 1:14:49Wes Larson?

  That's not a terrible answer either. So really, I mean, this is one of those animals where the main things you should do. Come before you actually get in the inner, the interaction with the animal. So really, if you're swimming in fresh water in places where alligators live, you really have to be super careful. You have to pay attention. You want to scan to make sure there are any alligators in the area. But really avoiding swimming in, in really alligator dense places is the key. You just shouldn't swim in habitat for alligators because the splashing can draw them in. And there's a decent chance, like if you're swimming in fresh water in Florida or Louisiana, there's a decent chance there's alligators around. So avoiding it in the first place is the main thing. Uh, don't ever feed them, don't ever harass them.

• 1:15:34Wes Larson?

  And then if you do find yourself in the water face to face with an alligator. And say it does bite on to you, you can go limp and try and roll with it. You can do a few things to try and discourage it. But at that point, you're just hoping that it does release its grip enough for you to get away. And there's a good chance it won't. So you need to just try and avoid it in the first place is the main thing. You can't go for the eyes.

• 1:16:00Jeff Larson?

  Like where they were just trying to go in a little bit to get some crab traps?

• 1:16:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:04Jeff Larson?

  What if they had like a big 10 foot pole?

• 1:16:08Wes Larson?

  That would honestly probably really help just to push it away with the pole or whatever.

• 1:16:12Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Wes Larson?

  Just like with sharks, like something in between you and it can really help. So yeah, that's another great thing to add to that. You know what might be a good solution is for maybe like a government funded program where they just dump a bunch of Tik Tok clocks into the water. So you can hear them when they're coming at you. Just yeah, exactly.

• 1:16:31Jeff Larson?

  They eat the clock.

• 1:16:32Wes Larson?

  Feed every alligator a clock. Exactly.

• 1:16:34Jeff Larson?

  What if you wear like a suit of armor?

• 1:16:37Wes Larson?

  That would, that would probably help too, unless it crunched that armor down around you.

• 1:16:41Jeff Larson?

  Teeth would just shatter when it breaks.

• 1:16:42Wes Larson?

  Be hard to swim in that, but it would be. I want to have my friend, Chris, his at is Gator Boys Chris, but he has millions of followers. He works with alligators every day. He runs a rescue in Florida where he has some alligators. He knows more about alligators than probably anyone I've ever met. And I'd love to have him on to talk a little bit more about safety. But Jeff, to your point, sometimes when he's working with multiple alligators, he'll have a stick that he kind of uses to direct them away from him. And it works really well. So a stick is a good idea. All right. This is a new category I saw in our new categories folder. The good roommate scale. So on a scale of one to 10, how good of a roommate this animal be?

• 1:17:28Jeff Larson?

  The animal?

• 1:17:29Wes Larson?

  I think mostly pretty great. I'm going to go pretty high. I'm going to say nine because it's mostly just going to like sit there just silently, completely silent. And that's what I'm looking for most in a roommate. For reptiles, they are the most vocal reptiles, but you, they do mostly, it's going to be pretty silent. Hmm. I'll bump it down to an eight then. Yeah, I'm with you. I think an eight, because you could just set up one room in your apartment with a ultra violent light and like, some water and that alligator is never gonna leave that room ever again.

• 1:18:02Jeff Larson?

  Right.

• 1:18:02Wes Larson?

  And.

• 1:18:03Jeff Larson?

  I think it would eat a lot of your food when you're not around.

• 1:18:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it probably would eat your food, especially if you have like chicken and stuff. That's true. I'm still giving it an eight for an animal.

• 1:18:14Jeff Larson?

  Like your whole pizza before you've got a pizza, like you're waiting for it to cool down and it just eats it all in one bite.

• 1:18:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah, right. I think a 10 would be like a jumping spider or something. So an alligator is definitely not as good as that, but.

• 1:18:29Jeff Larson?

  All right.

• 1:18:29Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Jeff Larson?

  Chimpanzee would be a 10 for me?

• 1:18:34Wes Larson?

  Oh, man. That's like a 1 for me. Yeah, that's as low as we can go. The alligator would be nice too, because they like they attack very few people a year. I wouldn't be too worried about that. I'm more worried about a human, to be honest. A human roommate? I think they're more likely to attack me.

• 1:18:54Jeff Larson?

  Ask you questions and stuff.

• 1:18:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Uh, oh, you eating some macaroni for lunch?

• 1:18:59Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:00Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:00Jeff Larson?

  What kind of shake do you have?

• 1:19:01Wes Larson?

  Super, super interesting line of conversation. Thanks for asking.

• 1:19:06Jeff Larson?

  And then you'd go on to talk about shake flavors the next five minutes?

• 1:19:11Wes Larson?

  Oh, man. You got me. You got me. You set me off. Jeff, what's your number for an alligator as a roommate? One to 10?

• 1:19:19Jeff Larson?

  I'm gonna go seven. I think he's gonna eat all my food. I think he'll never be dressed.

• 1:19:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:24Jeff Larson?

  Always be naked.

• 1:19:26Wes Larson?

  Is that a positive or a negative?

• 1:19:27Jeff Larson?

  That's 100% why Jeff wants a chimpanzee as a 10, because you can just put it in different clothes. You could dress an alligator. Gorilla might be better than chimpanzee.

• 1:19:37Wes Larson?

  Alligators are all in on that free the nipple movement. I've never seen him wear any kind of covering.

• 1:19:43Jeff Larson?

  I hate a roommate where it's like I ask him something and they don't talk back at all, you know?

• 1:19:49Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. So before we get into listener questions, I'm just gonna say, we had a question once for our Mount Rushmore of American animals. Like if we could put four animals on Mount Rushmore to represent America, what would it be? And I think I said American alligator and, and you guys didn't. And I just want to argue that I think this is my probably number one animal that I would say is like an American animal.

• 1:20:16Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:16Wes Larson?

  Because they are only found in the US. There's like a tiny, tiny, tiny little portion of Mexico that butts up against Texas where they're found. But this is really only an animal that's found in the United States. And they're found in a good chunk of it. They're a conservation success story. This is like probably my number one American animal, if I had to.

• 1:20:38Jeff Larson?

  This is just a funny way to give a top four. We're not gonna like

• 1:20:41Wes Larson?

  Right.

• 1:20:41Jeff Larson?

  steal the Native American mountain. We'll put it on

• 1:20:44Wes Larson?

  No.

• 1:20:44Jeff Larson?

  someplace no one cares about.

• 1:20:46Wes Larson?

  Yeah, Mount Rushmore is like a hypothetical.

• 1:20:49Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, right. I think, yeah, American alligator is hard to leave off.

• 1:20:54Wes Larson?

  I think it has to be on there.

• 1:20:55Jeff Larson?

  Sure.

• 1:20:56Wes Larson?

  I just wanted to argue that really quick.

• 1:20:57Jeff Larson?

  I'm all for it. What were your four?

• 1:20:59Wes Larson?

  Uh, I can't remember, but I think I would do American black bear, American alligator, bison and bald eagle would probably be my four.

• 1:21:07Jeff Larson?

  Are elk pretty American?

• 1:21:09Wes Larson?

  No, no, they're not. They're in Mexico, they're in Canada. I think they, there's like red deer in Europe that are very elk like.

• 1:21:17Mike Smith?

  What president would it be? Like what position would it be on Mount Rushmore? Would it be like the George or would it be the alligator?

• 1:21:23Wes Larson?

  Abe.

• 1:21:24Mike Smith?

  It's, it's George Washington for me. It's like, like the

• 1:21:27Wes Larson?

  It's my number one pick overall. Yeah. A couple of listener questions.

• 1:21:31Jeff Larson?

  Be cool to like redo Mount Rushmore with four animals.

• 1:21:35Wes Larson?

  It would be.

• 1:21:36Jeff Larson?

  I would visit.

• 1:21:37Wes Larson?

  All right. This one's from Cade. Cade says, "You are Noah and the people building your ark forgot about some animals and don't build it big enough. What animal are you leaving off?"

• 1:21:48Jeff Larson?

  Like sharks?

• 1:21:50Wes Larson?

  Sharks are gonna be fine. You don't have to put sharks on your ark.

• 1:21:56Wes Larson?

  I think land animals is what we're talking. That's a good answer, though. Yeah, you could leave off crocodiles and alligators. They'll probably be fine.

• 1:22:04Jeff Larson?

  He's saying just like, what animals we have now, would you be okay with not having?

• 1:22:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah, what are you picking to not be on your arc exactly?

• 1:22:13Jeff Larson?

  Cause I don't think you can really do bugs and stuff. That's cheating.

• 1:22:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I'd probably, honestly, I'd probably pick one of the wild buffalo or cow species. Cause I just, they're so close to like our cows already that they just don't really do much for me. Is that probably what I'd pick?

• 1:22:29Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:22:30Wes Larson?

  Not bison. I really like bison, but maybe like water buffalo.

• 1:22:33Jeff Larson?

  Oh, man. Garrison for my trips can be so mad.

• 1:22:37Wes Larson?

  He's gonna be so pissed at me. I'm gonna go. The big five, and now I'm kicking them off the planet.

• 1:22:43Mike Smith?

  Sure. I'm gonna pick an animal that doesn't seem very motivated to live in the first place. So maybe like a panda. Like if you're not gonna, you know.

• 1:22:51Wes Larson?

  Yeah, if you're gonna eat something that doesn't give you any nutritional value.

• 1:22:55Mike Smith?

  Yeah. But I love pandas, but come on.

• 1:22:59Jeff Larson?

  I get it, but it hurts.

• 1:23:01Mike Smith?

  Sorry, China.

• 1:23:02Jeff Larson?

  I'm having a really hard time. I mean, there's only eight types of bears. I feel like that's crazy to take out a bear.

• 1:23:11Jeff Larson?

  What's an animal that has like a ton of different species?

• 1:23:14Mike Smith?

  Snake.

• 1:23:14Jeff Larson?

  You know what? I'm gonna take a rhino out. What's the rhino that's almost extinct?

• 1:23:19Wes Larson?

  Like a Javan right, or I mean, uh, is it Javan right?

• 1:23:22Jeff Larson?

  No, I like the Asian rhinos. I think I'll just take a white rhino out. Black rhinos and white rhinos are close enough to me that I only need one of them.

• 1:23:32Mike Smith?

  Okay. Oh, man. They're so cool, but I get it. I respect your decision.

• 1:23:37Wes Larson?

  These are hard decisions.

• 1:23:38Jeff Larson?

  Like I feel like rhinos, I just need one type of rhino, you know?

• 1:23:42Mike Smith?

  The obvious choice for me is horse, but I think they're, they've proven themselves to be useful enough that it'd be pretty different world we're living in today without them. Pandas.

• 1:23:52Wes Larson?

  That's true.

• 1:23:52Mike Smith?

  They, dude, come on. It's like a lack of gratitude, how little they wanna propagate their own species.

• 1:23:59Jeff Larson?

  You had the chance to take out horses and you chose pandas. That's insane.

• 1:24:04Mike Smith?

  Yeah, there's like three pandas and they're like, no, I think I won't have sex today. It's like, oh, really? The one like the one primal fundamental driving force behind all living species. You're just not gonna do it.

• 1:24:17Jeff Larson?

  Dude, that's just like you hating yourself. You don't have sex. You just like sit there all day and eat plants.

• 1:24:25Mike Smith?

  Are you like, like you're referring specifically to me?

• 1:24:28Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:30Mike Smith?

  You're pretty off base on a few of those things. But I kinda see where you're coming from.

• 1:24:36Wes Larson?

  Okay, uh, this one's from Trey, T R E S. They say, in my opinion, black bear is a bad name because most, I agree with you on this. Because most black bears are brown and it can be confusing. I would disagree with that. Most of them are still black, but a lot of them can be brown. If you could pick another name for them, and we're talking American black bear here. Which would each of you pick? I was thinking honey bear.

• 1:25:02Wes Larson?

  It's a great, yeah, I would actually pick honey bear for like a sun bear or a sloth bear. Cause they actually a lot, eat a lot of honey.

• 1:25:09Mike Smith?

  It's kind of.

• 1:25:09Wes Larson?

  I would rename honey bear.

• 1:25:10Jeff Larson?

  We kinda need to like rename every type of bear except for like a polar bear.

• 1:25:16Wes Larson?

  I think I would name.

• 1:25:18Jeff Larson?

  Like bears got bad names.

• 1:25:20Wes Larson?

  Yeah, panda's got a good name.

• 1:25:22Jeff Larson?

  I don't like the giant.

• 1:25:23Wes Larson?

  I like spectacle or Andean bear too.

• 1:25:25Jeff Larson?

  I don't like that pandas are giant pandas. I think it should just be panda bear.

• 1:25:30Wes Larson?

  I would name black bears, forest bears.

• 1:25:33Mike Smith?

  Oh, that's what I was gonna pick. Dang it.

• 1:25:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:36Mike Smith?

  I wasn't clever enough to think of anything else.

• 1:25:38Wes Larson?

  Well, that's all right. We can both pick forest bears.

• 1:25:40Mike Smith?

  Yeah, they like berries, berry bear. That'd be kinda fun.

• 1:25:44Wes Larson?

  Berry bear, that'd be, it's hard to say, but it is fun.

• 1:25:46Jeff Larson?

  I'm gonna say tree bears.

• 1:25:48Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:25:50Jeff Larson?

  What about brown bears?

• 1:25:51Wes Larson?

  What would I name them?

• 1:25:53Jeff Larson?

  They're a bad name too, right?

• 1:25:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I kinda like brown bear, actually.

• 1:25:57Jeff Larson?

  Really?

• 1:25:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I think it's a good name for them.

• 1:26:01Jeff Larson?

  I guess just grizzlies.

• 1:26:02Mike Smith?

  That's what I would.

• 1:26:03Jeff Larson?

  I think it'd be better.

• 1:26:03Mike Smith?

  Yeah, you could just name them all grizzly.

• 1:26:05Wes Larson?

  Okay, this one is from Jordan. Jordan says, when we were in Lamar Valley in Yellowstone, we were watching a pack of wolves traveling through, and there was a grizzly walking alongside of them. We watched them disappear into the trees. The bears went with them, too. They all seem to be okay with each other. Is this normal? This isn't normal, but it's not by any means like unprecedented.

• 1:26:28Jeff Larson?

  It didn't blow your brains out.

• 1:26:30Wes Larson?

  No, it does happen occasionally. It's often like a subadult bear that realizes wolves kill a lot of animals. And if it simply follows a wolf pack, it will eat really well. And they often like the wolves will kill something. The bear will go in, push them off the kill, eat its fill, and then the wolves come in and eat afterward. So it's got to be pretty annoying for the wolves. But this does happen, like every few years, there's video from Yellowstone, especially where you see a bear that's just following a wolf pack. And the wolves just kind of tolerate the bear and the bear tolerates the wolves.

• 1:27:05Jeff Larson?

  Bad roommate.

• 1:27:06Mike Smith?

  I would go bad.

• 1:27:07Wes Larson?

  And it is always grizzly bears. Black bears don't do this, but grizzly bears will do it.

• 1:27:12Jeff Larson?

  Dude, alligators as a roommate, just hiding their food stash in your room, it gets so smelly.

• 1:27:18Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it would get pretty nasty. I did have an alligator roommate for a while, though, I guess, and I liked him. All right, uh, let's do one more from Patreon. This one's from Matt. Matt says, in Dungeons and Dragons, a brown bear has a challenge rating of one. That means a group of level one adventurers should be a match for one brown bear. Could the three of you with chainmail and swords take on a brown bear in a cage match?

• 1:27:44Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I think we could.

• 1:27:46Wes Larson?

  With chainmail and swords? I don't.

• 1:27:49Jeff Larson?

  I don't think I'm gonna use the chainmail.

• 1:27:51Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:51Jeff Larson?

  I would.

• 1:27:53Wes Larson?

  Interesting. I'd want the chainmail for sure.

• 1:27:55Jeff Larson?

  You said they can break a bowling ball with their teeth?

• 1:27:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I'm not gonna be happy with it, but it's better than nothing.

• 1:28:01Jeff Larson?

  But like, you wouldn't be able to really move. I feel like I'll have a chance to stab it if I don't have chainmail.

• 1:28:08Wes Larson?

  Listen, chainmail, chainmail's not that heavy, though.

• 1:28:11Jeff Larson?

  It's pretty heavy.

• 1:28:12Mike Smith?

  If Aragorn's gonna wear it, then I'm gonna wear it. That's, that's how I think about chainmail.

• 1:28:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I don't know. I've never fought in chainmail before. I would want it. If, if you're about to put me in a cage with a grizzly bear, and you say, hey, you can either have chainmail or not have chainmail, I would say, yeah, give me the chainmail.

• 1:28:28Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:29Wes Larson?

  But I think the bear's winning against the three of us.

• 1:28:31Jeff Larson?

  I do that move where like I drop my sword, fighting it, you know? And then it knocks me over and it's about to kill me and then I turn around with my sword and it runs into it.

• 1:28:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah, go behind you.

• 1:28:44Mike Smith?

  Oh, that's a good move. Yeah. Do we have a helmet? Because I'd put it on the ground and then the bear would kick it and break its toe, probably. Like in that one movie.

• 1:28:55Jeff Larson?

  It wasn't even acting. It, that was like, it's real expression.

• 1:28:59Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:01Wes Larson?

  A quick conservation corner. This is an animal that in the 50s, we thought there was probably only about 100,000 of them left, which really isn't that many for a reptile. So they were actually on their, on the way to extinction. And that was from a lot of different things, from pollution, like DDT, uh, from overhunting, from habitat loss. And they were one of the first species added to the endangered species list. They received a lot of protections. Before that, Florida outlawed hunting and they really rebounded quickly. This is an animal that reproduces pretty quickly. Um, they can have a lot of hatchlings and they, they rebounded and in just like,

• 1:29:40Wes Larson?

  I think it was 20 years after the Endangered Species Act, they were removed. Now in a lot of these states, they can be legally harvested. And like we mentioned, there's about 5 million of them now in the US. So they're, they're doing really well. And they are a really important conservation success story. It shows that when we do focus on these kind of issues, we can bring an animal back from the brink of extinction, which I think is wonderful. And it's neat to have those animals.

• 1:30:05Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 1:30:07Mike Smith?

  It's great to know.

• 1:30:07Wes Larson?

  Quick claw rating. I'm gonna give them. Nine claws. This is a nine claw animal for me. I love alligators. Get excited every time I see one.

• 1:30:16Jeff Larson?

  You like salt, saltwater crocodiles the most at crocodilian though, right?

• 1:30:21Wes Larson?

  I don't know. I, I have a hard time deciding that. It's probably between alligators and caiman though. Like a yakare caiman, but I think alligators are my, they're, they might be my favorite. Cause I've, I've worked with them quite a bit. I had a pet alligator for a bit, which I regret now, but at the time I didn't think was wrong. Uh, yeah, I don't know. I really like alligators.

• 1:30:43Jeff Larson?

  Well, I mean, Utah's a good spot to have a pet alligator.

• 1:30:46Wes Larson?

  It's not. Nope. You shouldn't have pet alligators. I was a dumb kid.

• 1:30:50Jeff Larson?

  I think I gotta give them an eight just because I do really love them, but I think I just like other crocodilians more. I like saltwater crocs more. I probably like caiman more if you were gonna kill me to make me decide.

• 1:31:02Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I won't do that.

• 1:31:04Jeff Larson?

  So alligators are probably around like my third or fourth favorite crocodilian.

• 1:31:09Wes Larson?

  I'd wait till after you decided to kill you, but yeah, yeah. I'm gonna give them a 10. This is a rare 10 animal, 10, 10 claw animal for me.

• 1:31:17Jeff Larson?

  From Mike, yeah.

• 1:31:18Wes Larson?

  I just think they made such, I'm, I imprinted or they imprinted on me, one or the other when I was little. I just think they're the coolest, some of the coolest looking, sexiest looking animals. They're just so sleek and dangerous, but also kinda just vibing. They're a really cool combination of like a lot of different things I like in an animal. And I, I just think they're one of the coolest out there. I'm glad we have them.

• 1:31:43Jeff Larson?

  Amazing.

• 1:31:44Wes Larson?

  Me too. All right. Well, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening.

• 1:31:49Jeff Larson?

  I wanted to, real quick to plug our Patreon.

• 1:31:53Wes Larson?

  That's what I was about to do. You do it instead.

• 1:31:55Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I, I, I'll do it. How about that? Watch this.

• 1:32:00Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I'll have both of you do it and then compare.

• 1:32:03Jeff Larson?

  No, but I just did an episode that I liked a lot. Did you guys like it?

• 1:32:06Wes Larson?

  Amazing. It was great.

• 1:32:08Jeff Larson?

  It was about these two different men who like get bit by black mambas, inland taipans, some of cobras, some of the most venomous snakes, but they've envenomated themselves.

• 1:32:19Jeff Larson?

  Throughout their life, so they can take bites from these snakes. And it's really fascinating. And also, I think I'll share just like a thread on Patreon about my whole cat fishing incident. If people want to see like some of the messages and ask more questions, because I know I went long, but like I made that story as short as I could.

• 1:32:41Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I will say like, we've been talking amongst the three of us a lot, just about how to make our Patreon and our subscription channels as good as possible, because that really is one of our main priorities, is taking care of our subscribers. So while we're always going to continue to have free episodes, we really have a lot of fun with our subscription episodes. I think they're really fun and we, I don't know, our Patreon community, they're the ones we can interact with the most. It's just been really fun to get to know people on there, so. Yeah, all right.

• 1:33:15Jeff Larson?

  Okay. All right, thanks Wes. Good episode.

• 1:33:17Wes Larson?

  Thanks, guys.

• 1:33:18Jeff Larson?

  Love you, everyone.

• 1:33:19Wes Larson?

  Love you.

• 1:33:20Jeff Larson?

  See ya.