20VC: From $57M in ARR to $297M in Just 12 Months; Why Speed of Execution is the Most Important Factor to Success, Hiring 2,000 People in 3 Years Remotely & Secondaries; Why, When and How Much To Take Out with Alex Bouaziz, Co-Founder & CEO @ Deel

Alex Bouaziz is the Co-Founder and CEO @ Deel, the all-in-one platform made to simplify all things HR, built for global teams near and far. In the last year alone, Alex has scaled Deel from $57M in ARR to $295M, EBITDA positive since Sept 2022, 85%+ gross margins, and over $5BN paid out to 250,000 people. Alex has raised over $679M with Deel, pricing the company at the last round at $12.1BN. Investors in the company include a16z, Spark Capital, Coatue, and many more. In Today's Episode with Alex Bouaziz We Discuss: 1.) From Student in London to Decacorn Founder: How Alex made his way into the world of startups and how he came up with the idea for Deel? Did Alex always know he would be successful when he was growing up? What does Alex know now that he wishes he had known when he was starting? 2.) The Importance of Execution: How important does Alex think speed of execution is for startups? What can startups do to deliberately increase their speed of execution? How does Alex think about the dilemma of losing quality with speed? What does Alex think you do need to go slow on to ensure it is perfect? How does Alex think about focus and prioritisation today with Deel? 3.) Scaling to $295M in ARR in 3 Years: When did Alex know he had true product-market fit with Deel? How did Alex use a 50-person Whatsapp group to both determine product market fit and to navigate product direction for the company? What was the key to Deel's blitz scaling strategy? What worked? What did not work? How did Alex hire 2,000 people in such a short space of time? What broke first in the organisation? How could they have prevented it? 4.) Secondaries, Angel Investing and Wealth Management: How much did Alex take out in secondaries in the last round of funding? How did Alex determine how much cash to allocate to angel investing? Why does Alex believe most founders make poor angel investments when they have cash? What have been Alex's biggest lessons from investing? How has it changed how he operates? Why should all founders be super transparent in investor updates?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I would hire someone that works really hard over someone that's really smart any day of the week. When you're building your career and when there's a lot of things to do, you should work freaking hard because nothing is going to be a handout.

• 0:10Harry Stebbings?

  This is 20 VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and what a company we feature today. Their growth over the last few years has been unparalleled. Check this out, from $57 million in ARR to $295 million in ARR in the last 12 months. EBITDA positive since September 2022, 85% plus gross margins, and over $5 billion paid out to over 250,000 people. I'm sure that's giving it away, but I'm thrilled to welcome a friend and phenomenal founder in the form of Alex Bouaziz, co-founder and CEO at Deal, the all-in-one platform made to simplify all things HR, built for global teams near and far. Alex has raised over $679 million with Deal, pricing the company at a last-round price of over $12 billion.

• 0:53Harry Stebbings?

  Investors in the company include Andreessen, SPAR, Co2, and many more. And the team effort on this schedule was fantastic. Ryan Hoover, Tarek Kalki, Yasmin at Spark, Anish at Andreessen, Dan Rose at Co2, Jeanetta La Familia, and many more. We really did our work on this one. I think there were 30 references for this episode in some form or another, so a huge thank you for that. But before we dive into the show today, the single most important element of any team is their ability to work together in the best and most efficient way. And Coda is the doc where teams can work on entire projects from start to finish with everything they need, all in one place. Think about the way your team works today. If all the work is spread across different documents, spreadsheets, and a stack of workflow tools like they are in all of my teams,

• 1:38Harry Stebbings?

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• 2:20Harry Stebbings?

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• 3:04Harry Stebbings?

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• 3:46Harry Stebbings?

  trusted by customer service teams at more than 25,000 global organizations, including Atlassian, Amazon, and Lyft Business. Check out this amazing offer. Eligible startups get advanced Intercom features at a 95% discount. So do not miss out. Head over to intercom.com/20vc to find out more.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 4:16Harry Stebbings?

  Alex, I am so excited to make this happen. I met you first like years ago when you were starting Deal. So first, thank you so much for joining me today, my friend.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to doing this with you for a while.

• 4:27Harry Stebbings?

  Oh, so have I. And what incredible numbers you posted the other day. I looked at them and I was like, holy shit. But I want to go back a little bit. So take me back, founding moment. When did you decide that Deal was what you wanted to spend the next 10, 15 years of your life on?

• 4:41Speaker 00

  The quick background on myself, and you should talk to her at some point, is we were both international people. I grew up in France, she grew up in China, moved to the US, and I lived in Israel and a few other places. We met back at MIT and we diverged. She went and built a company that eventually was acquired by iRobot and then Amazon. I went to start a PhD in the UK, actually. It was a great experience. You know, it wasn't really for me, so I started building companies. And throughout my whole career, I kind of had the luxury to meet amazing people from all over the world. And clearly saw that where you're from definitely impacts the type of opportunities you have. You created your own opportunities. But if you would have been in the Bay Area, it would have maybe been a little easier. So the idea of when we started our first companies, at first I couldn't afford engineers in Israel because they're so bloody expensive.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  So I had to find amazing people in locations where I could actually be able to pay the bills at the end of the month. And hired a few people in the Ukraine, in Serbia, in the UK. And actually, most of them are still at Deal today for the iterations of companies that we built together. But yeah, for me, it was always obvious. So the world is a very big place. It's all about working with the best people wherever they are, rather than being limited to a 20 miles radius. And that's really what Deal is all about, helping you go global.

• 5:44Harry Stebbings?

  I totally agree with you. I mentioned to you before the show, we have people in South Korea and Columbia who use Deal for 20 VC. I do want to ask you, when you think about navigating the idea maze and choosing what you want to work on. I remember speaking to Tarek Kalashi before the show about very early iterations, let's just say, of Deal's idea stage. He said, what advice would you give to founders on navigating the idea maze and choosing what idea to focus on?

• 6:06Speaker 00

  What I would say, and what we're really good at, I think, with true, is just trying things and doing it very fast. Like just executing on something, seeing if it works, and then being very realistic with ourself. It's not good enough, let's just not do it anymore. And actually, this is a trap that we almost fell in, right? Like when we were at YC, they have this thing where they do like group office hours and everybody presents like what they've been working on for the last two weeks. You're always enticed to say, oh, we grew X, or we did that, and we did that. And everybody around you is doing the same thing to throw off a little bit. And then you end up thinking, hey, I'm not doing too bad. But when you actually look at what you do, when you go from one user to two users, 100% growth, great, but nothing actually happened.

• 6:41Harry Stebbings?

  Man, I've had so many investor updates, which I literally, I was like, 200% growth. You're like, wow, we've made $12.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  It's very rewarding as an entrepreneur, but at the same time, you need to think about it. Like you said, right, you're going to be working on that for the next five to 10 years. Is this what one you want to work on, is it something you're truly passionate about? But more importantly, are you being true to yourself? Is this going to be really big? And if the answer is no, it's okay. Like, sometimes it feels everybody's looking at you, everybody checks everything you do, every launch you do. But most of the time, no one truly cares and they forget the next hour or the day after, right? So.

• 7:09Harry Stebbings?

  I said this to someone the other day, I said, yeah, you've got to remember, no one actually gives a shit about you. And it's not you, it's about you as well and me. Everyone's focused on their own lives.

• 7:18Speaker 00

  Bling, they care, but the guys on Proton or Twitter, they don't. Then you can relearn like 10 times, no one will ever notice.

• 7:25Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask, Alex, we chatted before the show, we've chatted many times before. You're 29, I'm 26. Obviously, Deal's a great success now and on the path to being an incredible company. Did you always feel, growing up, that you would be successful?

• 7:38Speaker 00

  I don't think I would have been able to define what success was when I was younger, but I knew that I wanted to build great products. I knew I wanted to build great things. I never really fitted the mold, whether it's like not making it through interviews or not really being excited to work at any large companies. I knew I wanted to build. I come from a family of entrepreneurs as well, so it runs in my blood a little bit. So definitely wanted to do bigger things.

• 7:58Harry Stebbings?

  Listen, you mentioned the speed of execution being so important there. I spoke to so many people before the show who mentioned that being your kind of defining superpower. How do you think about the importance of speed of execution for you and for startups today, Alex?

• 8:11Speaker 00

  I think speed of execution is what defines a company, right? And speed of growth is what makes startups. If you're not growing, you're dead, right? This is something we got very early on at the company, maybe even from Y C, where we just always looked at our week on week, month on month growth. And it had to be like really good. So speed of execution is the only way. And it's on everything, right? Like operations, customer support, customer success, product building. Like, we actually have a principle at Deal called Deal Speed, which a lot of people misunderstand for when they're looking at our principles like, oh, you want to go fast and really fast? No, it's about doing things really well, really fast. And I actually find that most of the successful people around me have that in their DNA, which is there's something you can do right now, just don't push it to tomorrow, act on it and move really fast. And that execution helps. Helps you through every lifetime of the company. Like when you're an early startup, that speed of execution enables you to understand,

• 8:56Speaker 00

  is this the right product? This is the right company really fast. When you're serving your customers, the speed of execution, the turnaround time, the care and empathy is what makes you have a happy customer that comes back and start expanding. This is really something that's very anchored in the deal DNA in us.

• 9:09Harry Stebbings?

  I've heard some founders talk about going slow to go fast. There are some things where you need to deliberately reduce the speed to ensure the highest quality. Is there anything that you think you should go slow on?

• 9:21Speaker 00

  It depends. When it comes to sales, I don't think you should ever reduce the speed. I think you should always triple down. So that's something that's to me very important. The hard part about deal is that when you're dealing with global compliance, and global compliance is really complicated. It's not just like setting up an ICU I and starting to like, and they will use to hire some people. It's understanding how do you onboard that person? How do you do it compliantly? How do you terminate them? How does overtime works in France, right? Like where I'm from, which is one of the most complicated country in the world. And when you do that, you got to do it very carefully. And that's why as we rolled out our products, as we rolled out our operational infrastructure, we always took the time to do it really well. And that's what gave us an edge. So that is slow to go fast. But at the same time, when you've got that figured out, you got to move really fast too.

• 9:59Harry Stebbings?

  In terms of bluntly focus, there are so many things that you can choose to focus and spend time on. How do you determine where to focus attention and what's a distraction?

• 10:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a broad question. But the way I like to think about it is if this is not catching my attention, like think about process that's broken, that's getting customer escalations or some part of the sales funnel or operations is not working. If it's not getting to me, it's most likely that the leadership in that department is doing really well. And they know that I'm here if they need anything. If things get to me, deal speed, we move really fast. We want to dive into it, dive into it really in the details. Even at that scale, I think I know most of the business operations really well. I'm able to dive into the details and say, we got a solution for that really fast. And I think that's really the key as you scale.

• 10:40Harry Stebbings?

  You said there about if it gets to you, then something has really gone wrong. There's a lot of trust that one places within team leaders and managers. Do you start from a position of full trust and it's yours to be lost? Or it's gained over time? You've got to prove it to me.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Fully distributed company, no choice. We have to start with full trust and it's here to be lost. We do have very tight KPIs and tight outputs and we measure people and we have Tendency to be really tough. We keep the best and the rest usually don't make it. But when you get that full trust and when you're able to execute, it's the best type of life. You can work from anywhere, you can do whatever you want and you're delivering something really great. So full trust, it's all yours to lose.

• 11:14Harry Stebbings?

  What happens when you have someone who's okay, they're good, but they're not amazing. But they're actually in a role where you need them and it's a pain in the ass to remove them. It's a pain in the ass to replace them. I'm literally using you as a big brother here. What do you do then where it's like they're good but not great?

• 11:29Speaker 00

  I think the one thing that would be the defining characteristic for me at that stage is how much do they care? And how hard do they work? I would hire someone that works really hard over someone that's really smart any day of the week. So if you work really hard and if you care, I'll be there to help you scale. I'll be there to help you grow and we'll have the infrastructure. And if you have that, I'll, you know, stay with us for the rest of time. If you are like this and you don't care and you don't work hard, then you probably will find a better place somewhere else.

• 11:55Harry Stebbings?

  When you decide to let someone go, it's a big decision, four big decisions. Do you have a framework for making them? When you think about deciding on a new product, a move the needle decision, how do you approach those big decisions?

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, when I want to let go someone first, I look at the country and understand how to do it right.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  But hiring takes so much time. You don't want to do this unless you really made a mistake. So you really want to be careful, but you got to be very decisive. If someone's not working out, it's in their best interest and it's in your best interest to probably part ways. So those are very clean decisions usually. And actually, the biggest mistakes I've made is not firing fast enough a couple of people that really, I was doing them a disfavor. Like they were not doing something that they really enjoyed or they were out of their depth and I didn't realize it enough. So it was mainly my fault. When it comes down to decisions, it's super cliche, but this idea of like strong opinions but weakly held. I think what we're really good at there is just logically think about what's happening in front of us and make a quick decision. And then if we're wrong, like one or two weeks in, quickly change it and iterate through it. That has to be the mindset. I don't think anything is set.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  I think usually as long as you've got a very strong focus on your customers, you understand what they want. You understand the need that you're doing here, you should be able to make the right decision as a founder.

• 13:04Harry Stebbings?

  You said about earlier, like the speed of growth. Alex, if there's one thing that I could be criticized for, it is slight momentum, hyper growth investing. My point is, speed of growth isn't actually everything, like a hundred percent. Compounding works well. It's not important to grow a hundred percent, but continuously and sustainably grow thirty percent.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, thirty percent is great. That's why we did a deal for the first two years of the business. We grew thirty percent month on month. So I'm all for that. Especially when you're building a business where we have lawyers, AHR, payroll managers in every country and there's operations and automations that needs to be built. If you grow too fast, you break the business. The customer experience gets hurt and it's pain from the fact that the operations are not able to scale that. So I think there's a very fine balance between growing and maintaining your operations and your scale and how you do that. Not to be misunderstood for it's okay not to grow. You always need to be growing. Funny enough, most of the numbers like forty to fifty seven, which is what we did in twenty twenty one, I think. Yeah. And then fifty seven to three hundred, two ninety five is what we did in twenty twenty two.

• 14:07Speaker 00

  That's actually where we budgeted even a little more at the beginning of the year. So that was calculated growth.

• 14:11Harry Stebbings?

  Fuck it now. Can't believe I met you at thirty K or more. You're twenty nine, mate. What have been your biggest lessons on hiring and talent acquisition and determining whether someone has that hunger? By me and you, it's obvious.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  I actually interviewed the first, I think, north of four hundred, five hundred first people at deal. Spent a lot of time on that until, actually funny was, I think it's a mistake. I should have kept picking that funnel. But until my team told me, you heard the bottleneck, you need to stop interviewing people. But I learned a lot through that. What it taught me is to genuinely, even if someone has the right CV, if in your conversation, you don't think you're the right DNA for the company, even if everybody tells you hire them, just don't. In your process, make sure that if you think the person is not great or is not the right fit, even if they do everything on paper, just don't hire them.

• 14:54Harry Stebbings?

  What's the right DNA? I always say to my mother, I go for walks with my mother, I talk about people and I say, he wasn't, or she wasn't a savage. I think this whole generation is like entitled.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Savage, I think is important for what it's.

• 15:06Harry Stebbings?

  You need to be a savage.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  I agree. I'm a hundred percent agree. Not in a bad way. It's just like you need to be in the stage of your life. Then this is what you want to be doing and this is what you want to be accomplishing. If not, you're just not gonna enjoy your ride, right? You're not gonna enjoy working with us because we are there. And if everybody's going at a thousand miles per hour and that's not the lifestyle you want, then you're just not gonna have fun. So being very honest with the expectations you have, why are people coming to deal and joining your company? And how life is gonna be? Again, I love what I do, right? So for me, this is the life I. Want, you gotta make sure this is the life you want. And if it's not, it's totally okay.

• 15:38Harry Stebbings?

  You've scaled so fast. When we look at now, over a thousand people in three years.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  Two thousand.

• 15:44Harry Stebbings?

  Oh, fuck. Anyway, when you meet somebody, I feel so insecure about my own life. Normally, I'm like.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Doing headcount is not what makes a company successful. It's not the opposite. It's just the complexity of what we do just.

• 15:55Harry Stebbings?

  But anyway, I spoke to Gokul before the show, one of your angels, and he said, ask him, just take me through the blitz scaling strategy. What was the key to such supercharged growth? Because Alex, like, just realistically, there are very few companies that can grow that quickly. What was the key?

• 16:09Speaker 00

  A few things. First, I think our product decisions were pretty on point. We started our product with helping companies hire contractors. We're the only one in the market. When we saw that there was an opportunity with helping people hire as employees, and we saw a couple of companies in the space, because we actually came in a little later on that. We executed really fast, right? Like product strategy from the early sales into the hiring and the opening entities. And the same thing happened with Global Payroll. We started seeing companies thinking about opening their own entity. We're like, all right, we gotta get on that front. And now that we have all this solution, again, doing a pre pivotal moment and saying, we're gonna be the full HR stack. So I think those product decisions to really grow with our customers and for them to see, wow, okay, Dill is growing with me, right? They're doing the right things and they're moving in the right direction. I can trust them.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  When we started Dill, the questions people were asking us is how do I know you're not gonna run with the salaries I'm paying out to my people? That's what we started with.

• 16:55Harry Stebbings?

  And how did you gain that trust with them? Because he was just a young startup, like you didn't have brown.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  I think it's something you win over time, right? Discussions, your face, marketing, raising funds helps. I think if you look at our numbers, we've always been pretty transparent as a company. We talk about where we are. We talk about, of course, it's easier when you're growing than when you're not to talk about this. But there is like intent into sharing what we do, sharing how we wanna help, sharing how we wanna democratize like global hiring, remote work. So that people feel comfortable saying, hey, I can trust that company. They're really growing.

• 17:22Harry Stebbings?

  Tell me, I heard about this go to market hack of having 50 customers on WhatsApp. What was that?

• 17:28Speaker 00

  I love having customers on WhatsApp. This is a product report into me and it's probably the place where I spend the most time. Again, Dill is four years old, relatively young company. When you wanna decide where you're going next, it's better to hear it first from your customers. And what better way to chat with them directly on WhatsApp, right? And I make great friends that whatever we're. When we're thinking of something, I can just hit them up and say, what do you think of that? And nothing can beat that.

• 17:50Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask, how do you know what advice to take and what customer suggestions to take versus what not to? I have some people that are like, I want to hear more of the story of the guest. And then I have others who are like, fuck the intro, I just want to get to the strategy. And it's very subjective. So how do you know what to ingest and take in versus what to reject?

• 18:08Speaker 00

  I think it's a different type of feedback. If you're looking at feedback that's like, hey, your product is shit in here, right? This is something that's very direct. You listen, you execute no matter what we tell you. When you're looking for where should I go next, what are the type of things I should go? I usually look for more validation. I have an hypothesis and I'm trying to understand out of the hundred people I'm going to talk to, how many people are going to take me there versus not. But the feedback I think really matters on generally for me at this stage, it's less about the product. It's more about where should we go next.

• 18:35Harry Stebbings?

  Matt, how much of your vision is predefined, like in your head, internal versus is customer led?

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Vision, I would say, most of it is predefined. Product iterations, product directions, and then nitty gritty on how to make it great. This is what customers are helping us figure out, as well as sequencing of what do we come out with first. The cool thing about HR is a lot of things are very adjacent to it. It's like, we could probably sell any product to a certain amount of our user base, but understanding what is the right thing to focus on and when, that's much more customer led.

• 19:07Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah, we're going to talk about kind of market landscape and competition. Should be interesting. But 2,000 people in those four year journey. The other question that I had is, what breaks first? When you think about scaling so fast, what are the first things to break?

• 19:20Speaker 00

  At what point everything breaks? I mean, what broke first? I used to do support, 2021, and there was a time where there was too many customers. I couldn't do it anymore. I needed to hire someone and I had not planned fast enough to hire there. I struggled for, me and Shu were doing support every day till like very late on different time zone to make sure that we get that. And that was misplanning. Again, there's lots of things that break when it comes to sales. Invest in sales ops much earlier. We're paying the price of having a, now it's much, much better. But at the time, we paid the price of having not a perfect sales force that was easy to use. There's tons of stuff that break. It's just a matter of focus.

• 19:50Harry Stebbings?

  Talk to me, why invest in sales ops much earlier and what was the lessons there?

• 19:55Speaker 00

  Got to form a product market fit, revenue operations, sales operations is what's truly going to enable you to scale. Cause your reps are more efficient, your close rate is better, you have a better understanding of what's going on. Your SDRs are much more efficient, your customer success are much more efficient. And if you want to scale as fast as we do, it's all about optimizing so that they can do their job and empowering them to do that. And if you look at today, I think we have easily more than 200, 300 plus reps, right? In the sales organization, like optimizing for them and making their life better is such a great investment for us. And as you grow, when it's your first time building a company at this scale, you don't have as much insights. And thank God we brought some really great people to help us there.

• 20:29Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask, what have been the biggest lessons that you've learned in running a team of this scale remotely? That's what's insane.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  I think we might be like one of the biggest, if not the biggest private company that's fully distributed, by the way. I mean, there's tons, right? You ask it at the beginning about trust, I think this is the most important. I think remote works for us because my framework is I trust you. Let's execute together and let's make sure you're the right person and that really works. And I don't think it will work any other way. I don't think if you don't have that mindset, you'll be able to really build a distributed company at scale.

• 20:56Harry Stebbings?

  Do you give people the room to set their own goals or do you micromanage?

• 20:59Speaker 00

  At the very beginning, depending on the size of the company, I think you shape leaders and they shape you as well. Into building a relationship where like they're able to run on their own. So I think it's a mix of both. When you're onboarding someone, it's important to be there for them, specifically on the remote base. As you grow and as you hire very strong people, I think you tend to be a little less micromanaging. Now, being in the details is very important. First, you don't need to be in the details and annoy the people you work with. You can just understand the details and then say something when you have something to say and not just say it all the time. And that usually helps.

• 21:27Harry Stebbings?

  Final one on team and people. You said to me before that Silicon Valley won't be the epicenter of tech for much longer. There's this like revolt on Twitter where like everyone's coming back saying, ah, it's back with AI. Why won't Silicon Valley be the epicenter, my friend?

• 21:40Speaker 00

  I think Silicon Valley is a mindset. It's very strong people there all over the world, right? I think I'm a pretty strong embodiment of values that Silicon Valley has. I think you have as well and you're in the UK and I'm in Paris right now. So saying that one location is the center of everything here is with the state of the internet today and accessibility and investors being willing to invest, you know, we raised most of our rounds actually without even meeting most of our investors. So that shows. That the valley has expanded into the world and I lived in San Francisco for a bit, right? I understand the mindset of you're in a room, there's a lot of smart people, there's nothing to do at nights. Everybody's working all the time. I get that. That's a great way to build great companies.

• 22:16Harry Stebbings?

  I totally agree with you. They also go to bed and have dinner so freaking early. It's incredible.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  I'm from Paris and Tel Aviv, right? You start going out at nine thirty, ten.

• 22:24Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah, no one was also in the office until ten AM in Paris. It's bizarre. I want to move away from team though, more to the space itself, because the space in plantly is hotting up. And I spoke to one of your investors who said it's not a winner take all market and you vehemently disagreed with them apparently.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  I knew they.

• 22:40Harry Stebbings?

  It's not a winner take all market, Alex. Why am I wrong?

• 22:43Speaker 00

  Because we're gonna make sure it's not.

• 22:44Harry Stebbings?

  Is there a reason though, why? Is there a structural reason why it's not?

• 22:48Speaker 00

  I think there can be a lot of great companies in this space. I think like every space, there is one clear winner that's going to come out of this and that's going to be significantly larger than others. Will you have a couple of ten billion plus dollar companies built there? Sure. I think there's a trillion dollar company that can be built, a generational company that can be built and there's only going to be one of those.

• 23:04Harry Stebbings?

  That's super nicely, man. You just said like a couple of ten billion dollar companies. There's not many ten billion dollar companies in the non twenty twenty one inflated quantitative easy environment. Like Twilio is a six billion dollar company. You sure there's gonna be a couple of secondary companies that are worth ten billion?

• 23:19Speaker 00

  I think HR is such a complex, HR payroll is such a complex infrastructure that is always specific needs into specific markets and companies that can be built. And every single company needs a product that's tailored for them or verticalized for something they need as well. Maybe you don't go to ten, five billion plus dollar companies, sure. And they don't need to be blitzscaling. They don't need to get to billion they are in three years. Those are companies that can be built over the next fifteen, twenty years and get to that revenue because they've built an amazing product in that timeframe. That's what I mean.

• 23:45Harry Stebbings?

  You mentioned that verticalization. Do you think SaaS is bundling rather than going to vertical point solutions? And how do you think about that?

• 23:52Speaker 00

  I love this conversation because I think one of the beauty of dealing the way we've built it is the ability of bundling and unbundling the both together. If you go into your traditional solution, you come in and they'll try to feed you everything and they try to sell you everything, specifically in HR. You gotta be on your R H R S to be able to buy the other products and that's how it works. When you look at deal, you can come and this is how we've been able to go to enterprise as well. You come and you can hire one person in South Korea. In Japan in a couple of minutes, if you're Nike or if you're Subway, like some of our customers, you don't need to buy the full A star solution. We plug and play with your SAP or your workday. We are also then able to introduce you to the different products that we have. And you start having that suite of product that you're buying over time and getting into the account slowly and surely, ensuring them we're the right people to partner with. And that idea of being able to bundle everything if they want to,

• 24:35Speaker 00

  but also being able to unbundle and do things we're very specialized in at the same time. I find that super interesting.

• 24:40Harry Stebbings?

  Listen, I had Parker Conad on the show and he mentioned that, but also how bluntly when you own the stack and own multiple different products, all catered to by the same service provider, what an enhanced product you can build because of the data that you have across the product suite. How do you think about the increased product you can offer? Because you have multiple different points into the company.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, I think this is good insight. I do think that there's some products that are much more complex to build than others, where you need to spend a lot of time on building a lot of products that are six or seven out of 10 is a good Microsoft like play. I think some of them needs to be nine and 10. And to some extent is doing part of that where we want to be able to consolidate all of this and enable our customers to really grow. Would I want to take on a Brexit ramp? Probably not today. I think you really need to put the right care in order to build the right product there, rather than build a product in a couple of weeks and pushing out to market.

• 25:31Harry Stebbings?

  Would you want to take on Brexit ramp in five years' time?

• 25:34Speaker 00

  I'd love to partner with them. Those are two, two very close companies. I love them. Probably not in that space.

• 25:39Harry Stebbings?

  You're such a good politician. There's a politician's tactic called the pivot, which is when someone says something and they make a nice little pivot to the side.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  UK carrying their animals, their savages, I want them on my side. My job is to help hundreds of thousands of people get to work for the best companies and make sure that they do it compliant in every single one of those countries. That's not something you launch in a couple of weeks. That's something that's taken us years to get to because of how complex it is. And it's super important that we get that right. And when you're dealing with labor laws that are changing every week, with taxes that are changing every week, you have startups or Pento that are like literally building a Pem Augusto in one country, because that's how hard it is. Doing things right in this space is super important. So we want to be really focused on doing that. And then adding the things that we find are a little easier to build, like the software, HR stack, adding people and all this.

• 26:25Harry Stebbings?

  Is not an easy place for compliance. A lot of Americans like, ah, Europe, yeah, Europe.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  I am.

• 26:31Harry Stebbings?

  Is it like a, yeah, we can take Europe or is Europe actually as difficult and challenging as one would expect Europe to be?

• 26:38Speaker 00

  The last three months, and I can't wait for companies in this space that are coming smiling, thinking, oh, it's such a high ACV, we're gonna have fun. In the last three months, thousands of people got laid off. Most companies, apart from the one that are really in this space that know how it works, have no idea how to fire someone in the Netherlands on behalf of your customers. The rules to do that, it's crazy. And again, the easy part of any, or at least one of those products, people love to say, oh, that's an amazing product. The mode is not that strong. Sure, it's easy to spin up an entity and then get people employed on it and charge for that. But what happens when you go into Germany or France, where you need specific licenses to do that? What happens when you start needing to do mass termination, when in some countries you cannot terminate more than X people at one time? Those are the things that are truly hard, that a lot of people in the US think, oh, this is gonna be easy because it works like in my country, but that's not it.

• 27:22Harry Stebbings?

  I think the reason why I've been actually quite successful as an interviewer is I ask stupid questions that probably everyone else thinks. In a world where everyone else is getting laid off, literally every day there's new layoffs, how does deal grow? Your business is predicated on hiring. How do you grow if everyone's getting laid off?

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's a matter of two different things. One, consolidation of tools is super important. And having one solution that helps you grow into different workforce mode, whether it's contractors, where we help you do that compliantly, open your own entity so that you settle the cost and having everything in one platform, that's super appealing for our customers. Second is, and I'm getting calls by some of the biggest HROs, CROs and CPUs of the market. People understand that paying 500K and burning tens of millions of dollars per month is not as sustainable anymore. And it's not growth at all costs now. It's about profitability. And a great way to achieve that, because the market hasn't come down in some of the key markets, is to hire internationally. So building a strategy that helps you navigate the different employment mode, navigate the different countries to get the best talents.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  I believe it's going to be one of the big playoffs 2023. I'm super biased, but I believe that it's gonna be one of them.

• 28:24Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think that cost focus will drive a bundling? And what I mean by that is traditionally in bundling, you obviously have better economics. You get the whole suite for 49.99 versus point solutions, which are kind of 19.99. And then you end up paying a hundred dollars. And they might be nine out of 10 products and these are seven out of 10 products. But do you think that actually that cost for efficiency on savings will drive bundling?

• 28:45Speaker 00

  100% because the HR leader is not going to have as much decision power here and the CFO is going to, right? So 100%. So if you combine the idea of bundling, the hard things like global payroll, EOR, contractors compliantly, immigration services, all of the things we do into one product. Let's say if tomorrow were to release a performance management tool, it's maybe not going to be the best in the market straight away. Hopefully over time it will be, but right? If we're going to be happy to have a five or six out of 10, even not even seven, five or six out of 10, because it's going to cost and bundle everything.

• 29:13Harry Stebbings?

  You've recently made some acquisitions, speaking of like product expansions. Talk to me about how you think about making acquisitions because I'm just intrigued. Why do you acquire versus build internally? What's that decision making?

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, a few things. One, it's amazing to other grand entrepreneurs that are very passionate about what they're solving and telling them, hey, first, here's 15,000 customers from all different segments that we can sell into your product and help us get better. Second, usually what the companies require are doing is very hard, right? So we acquired, for example, LegalPad that did US immigration. They actually did my own O1 visa. That's very specialized, it's very hard to do. And taking this immigration product now to 26 different countries, like we can help you hire someone on their visa and get them the visa in 26 different countries. This is really hard. That expertise is super valuable for us. Or if you look at PayGroup, which was like a bit of a crazy acquisition because they were a public company in Australia, they do payroll in all the way back themselves. Good luck running payroll in China in the Japan yourself.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  This is where we went from, hey, we're working with local people that help us run payroll on our own entities to deploying our global payroll product and saying, bringing everything in-house. And those guys are freaking amazing at it and we're here for it.

• 30:17Harry Stebbings?

  They gave you a visa? No, I'm joking.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  No visa, not only visa.

• 30:23Harry Stebbings?

  Not just a visa, you're a special person. Tell me, that's really hard though. Like you acquire, you know, this Aussie company that's public and then you just integrate them and steal. How did you do the integration? And Alex, how did you know what to do?

• 30:35Speaker 00

  It's hard. We don't know how to do it as well as we want to. Luckily for us, my CFO, who actually is also my father, that makes it quite interesting, dynamic wise. His first company who we took public. As a CEO, did about fifty plus M and As to grow. So they didn't grow as much organically. They were a service business, so they did a lot of M and As. So that's actually something he's really good at. So that makes the cost of acquiring a lot cheaper most of the time and the negotiation a lot easier. And then when it comes to the people side, there's still a lot of work to do, but we're getting better.

• 31:01Harry Stebbings?

  Alex, tell me, your father, I didn't know that actually. What's the secret to making that work? How do you make it work with your dad?

• 31:07Speaker 00

  We're very tight as a family. The way I was raised, we're very close. And I think we have very different skill sets. I'm much more aggressive, make decisions a lot faster and much more product and maybe a bit more Americanized in many ways where I understand the value a bit more because I studied in the US, where he's much more traditional French CEO of a public company. One of the reasons we are a bit now since September, which was one of the big announcements we had, is that in January, he looked at the market and he said, uh, hiring freeze everyone. You got to work on your workbooks and what you're doing. And I want us to be a bit depositive by the end of the year. And we're like, okay.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  And it ended up being one of the best decisions of the company. So I think we have a very different skill set, but at the same time, very complimentary. And I think there's a lot of mutual respects where he understands also here to make my mistakes. His favorite thing is like, you'll see in three months, I was right or in six months, I was right. And he's right most of the time, to be honest. He's a very special person. Obviously, he's very strong and I'm learning a lot from him. And at the end of the day, I think the trifecta of like finance people and Shuo, who's managing most of the sales, is really working well together into building the all today.

• 32:05Harry Stebbings?

  I want to touch on you and then a quick fire. You took secondaries out, my man. But it's always shrouded in secrecy, which I think is what drives so much of the cynicism towards them. I think if there's like transparency, how much did you take out?

• 32:16Speaker 00

  On my side, around ten, mainly to buy like an apartment and a few different things I wanted to do, like buying some presents for my father and my parents. But the cool part is that when we did that, Shuo and I, we actually allowed all our early employees to do it as well if they wanted to.

• 32:28Harry Stebbings?

  Got you. How did you decide that was the right amount? And how much early employees took secondaries?

• 32:34Speaker 00

  The right amount for us, the place I wanted to buy cost X, and then I had a couple of other things I wanted to get done. So it was one, something we felt comfortable with. And second, getting to the amount that the guys that did the run wanted to get to. So it's both of those things at the same time. I mean, if he's there, they want a certain amount of ownership or put a certain amount of money. And when you're at this stage, that definitely is a part of that. How many people did secondaries on their? Employee side, I can think of fifteen, but again, it was ten percent of what they had earned. We didn't want them to be checked out, but it was definitely even some of them more than me. I think they were very happy and they were able to do a lot of great things. And they're still key leaders of the company that are executing and got dealt to where it is today.

• 33:10Harry Stebbings?

  Mate, if you have a savage and you give them ten million, they'll be even more of a savage.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  That's exactly what happened, right? Some of the people that took money off the table, they were able to buy the things that they needed to have a really good life. And now they're like, I'm good, let's freaking go. And actually, one of the things, most of the smart investors I worked with that work with founders. And frankly, it was not exactly my case. I wasn't as much in need as maybe some other founders. But I think smart investors understand, I don't want the guys that are running the company to be worrying about. I think it's important because when you have so many things to worry about, worrying about that as well is not useful when you can, you know, set a bit of your shares to someone that's interested in it and like take and have a peace of mind on that front.

• 33:44Harry Stebbings?

  When it comes to secondaries, how do you think about advice for founders?

• 33:47Speaker 00

  Taking secondary, I like the series A, I don't think it's super smart. Taking it a bit later, it kind of, I think makes a bit more sense. We had taken a little bit at our series B and then a little bit more at our series D. I felt like this was the right amount and the way we did it was very systematic where we work on a little bit of secondary there. And then on the second one would be a refresh in the next round for our shares as we go. That's how we think about it. So I think the right amount is what makes you comfortable, depending on your situation. I don't have a family, I just wanted to be able to have a nice place I can live in and then put some money on the side so that I can diversify. And that has worked out really well. I don't know if taking a lot of secondary is super smart, but I think in my case, I think it's going to be worth a lot more.

• 34:24Harry Stebbings?

  So you angel invest with the proceeds, how did you decide how much to put aside? Did you decide, I'm going to put a million aside for angel investing?

• 34:31Speaker 00

  I think most founders that take a little bit of secondary is the first few months are very dumb with their angel investing. And they just invested everything that they see because their friends send it to them. And I think this is the case, like amongst most of my friends that did a bit of secondary, so like I'm not the only one.

• 34:44Harry Stebbings?

  But you do this.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  I, I, thankfully, I actually started investing very early on for fund before, so I have a bit of experience. And I definitely invested in some companies because it was my friend running it and maybe it wasn't the smartest decision. But now I don't really have time to manage it anymore, so I rarely do angel investing in the last few months.

• 35:00Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask, what've been your biggest lessons from doing that investing, both for the fund and angel investing? How's it? Impacted how you run deals.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  I think we actually do send really great investor updates and I think a lot of founders send very shitty investor updates. That's something that I've realised where I think I can tell whether a company is going to be successful by the investor updates I'm getting very early on. It's a strong statement, but I really think it.

• 35:19Harry Stebbings?

  What makes you think it's going to work early? Is it data clarity? Is it like the tone? Is it the?

• 35:25Speaker 00

  The middle. I'm happy you're doing this, but I want you to tell me how I can help you. How is the company really progressing? At the same time, you have people that send you very shitty updates where you're like, there's no data and you can't actually even help from the data you're getting. I think there needs to be a middle ground.

• 35:37Harry Stebbings?

  So a lot of founders are worried. I think it was Ryan Hoof that said this to me because he's another of your investors. He was like, ask him about data transparency because a lot of founders worry that, oh, I shared too much data and all these investors are going to forward it and share it. What do you advise founders on data transparency in your investor update?

• 35:52Speaker 00

  Everything you send is forwarded and read by all your competitors. And that's number one. Number two, even my vortex somehow ended up into competitors' hands. What's important is like, you can be secret on a couple of product launches and a couple of your metrics, like whatever you feel is important. But at the end of the day, it's the same way that you launch. No one actually care. You're a one million dollar company. There's another company that's had five million AR. If you think like sending your investor update of what you achieved last month is going to be what's going to change the game between the two of you, then you're probably wrong. So giving the right data is super important. Don't go and share all of the data that you think are critical for your business, but share the things that are actually going to be helpful. It makes people excited about you. If you were fundraising like two, three months ahead, show that you're growing, show that you have things that are happening. If you need help with specific things or if you're very proud of something, people are proud that they've invested with you and they're invested in you.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  So share the right data and help them help you.

• 36:40Harry Stebbings?

  How often do you send updates? How often do you want to see them from founders in the early days? One, and then two, if things aren't going well, how honest are you?

• 36:48Speaker 00

  I send investor updates every month until September of this year. I realised most people weren't helping anymore, so they, so I just stopped sending them and I'm just sending quarterly now, which is just, it's less about help. Because when I need something, I usually go and ask it to the person directly. It's more about making sure that they have an idea of what's going on with the company and they don't forget us because they have so much things on their mind that it's totally something that I would understand. I think early on you need to send monthly updates. And I would be transparent. But smart in the way I write it, transparent in the way that things are not going well, say it, say what you need, but do not try to have your investors come, is that right? Because what you're going to get out of them is they won't care anymore, which is exactly the opposite of what you want. You have to be thoughtful, right?

• 37:28Speaker 00

  And don't overshare, but share the things that you truly are worried about and you feel they're going to be able to help. Sharing something that's sad just for the sake of it is not useful.

• 37:36Harry Stebbings?

  Final one then, quick fire. Who's the single most helpful investor you've had?

• 37:40Speaker 00

  Luckily enough, for example, Andreessen has a big enough position that I get to talk to Ben every month. I actually have a call with him right after you, I think. So he's super helpful in terms of the big decisions we're making. Maybe you haven't heard of him, but there's a guy called Anthony from a fund called Green Bay Ventures.

• 37:52Harry Stebbings?

  Anthony Schiller, yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Love Anthony. He's the only person I actually trust. I can commiserate with something I actually know is wrong, so that's super helpful. So Anthony's a beast. I'm very lucky because he's very picky in terms of where he invests because he deeply commits to the company. And I think he's become, a lot of my investors are great, but they're busy and he's really become a friend. And yeah, that's something, he's a very important person for us.

• 38:12Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, we're going to do a quick fire round, my friend. I'm going to say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Sure, I'm scared of what my brain's going to come out with, but sure.

• 38:21Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, so what life balance do we live in an entitled generation?

• 38:25Speaker 00

  A hundred percent entitled.

• 38:26Harry Stebbings?

  Why?

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Because there's an age for everything and it's fine if you value work-life balance. That's something important for you, that's great. When you're building your career and when there's a lot of things to do, you should work freaking hard because nothing is going to be a handout.

• 38:38Harry Stebbings?

  What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

• 38:40Speaker 00

  Work-life balance. I think there's a stage in your life where it's important for you to take a step back and decide where you put your time and being able to prioritize some of the things that are important. Not saying I got to that stage, but I think there's a few things that I realized on that front where I needed to put a bit more thought into a bit more prioritization here and there.

• 38:55Harry Stebbings?

  What's the most painful lesson that you've been through, but you're also pleased to have been through because of the lessons?

• 39:00Speaker 00

  We almost had very early on a showstopper on one of our key products. One of the person I hired, I knew was the wrong hire. I let them continue for a couple of months too long and I should have been a bit stronger and cut them. They had everything on paper, big resume, big company, is supposed to be really good. So I was like, give them two, three months to figure it out. The speed at which we were evolving at and we were iterating and big wool that was coming to us if we weren't going to cut that person, it was a near miss for us, for sure.

• 39:25Harry Stebbings?

  Boards really aren't value.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Depends on the stage of the company, depends how well the company is doing. If the company is doing really well, the board is here to be supportive and help you get the bigger customers and maybe help you see what you don't see. But at the same time, if you're moving really fast, it's hard for people to just have a strong opinion on the company that they sit once a quarter. If you're not doing as well, I think this is where your board has the most value because assuming they have your best interests at heart, which is not always the case. Thankfully, it is at Dill. I think they're able to navigate you and Ben said a couple of times. I don't think a company can be successful without their founders. So helping founders for that is super important.

• 39:58Harry Stebbings?

  What would you most like to change about the world of venture?

• 40:00Speaker 00

  I still think people have a bit of that mindset of Silicon Valley companies are the best in the world and they are the only one that can be successful. I think it changed a little bit during COVID and I think hopefully we're the living proof of that being changed. But I still think there's a couple of funds, they're not taking the risk approach of funding people. They're really hungry from places where they could really build meaningful businesses. I hope that changes.

• 40:19Harry Stebbings?

  Penultimate one, when you look at your existing angel portfolio, if you could put all of your money into one, which would you put it in?

• 40:24Speaker 00

  At what stage? At the current valuation or the last valuation?

• 40:28Harry Stebbings?

  At the current valuation.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  I still think Kalshi and Tarek, I still think he's got something amazing and he's got a one in a lifetime company. But he still has to execute a lot before he gets there. I think maybe ideally at the valuation from before. Or ClickHouse, I don't know if you've heard of them, I did the valuation from before as well. But ClickHouse led by Aaron Katz, he's a savage in every way. He's really good. You should probably talk to him. I think they can build an iconic company that can properly compete with the US.

• 40:56Harry Stebbings?

  I love that. I added that. The final one, my friend. Now it's five years for you. Fuck, it's 2028. Where are you then? Where's Dill then? Are we public? Are we not public? What do you think?

• 41:05Speaker 00

  It's hard to tell and I think going public is just a milestone in the journey, right? So like, here's your politician answer.

• 41:10Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah, I was about to say.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  We'll see where we go on that front. I think right now, unless Microsoft or SAP, more Microsoft decides they want to get into HR. I don't see anyone being able to bring us in. We're very excited to build Dill into helping hundreds of millions of people. And that's not the political answer. That's actually where we want to get to. And I think we have a very unique opportunity of breaking down a bit of those borders where I think a lot of people won't have to completely change their life for jobs anymore. They'll be able to work for the best companies regardless of where they were from. That's something I'm super excited about.

• 41:39Harry Stebbings?

  Alex, I've absolutely loved this, man. You are such a star. Thank you so much and you've been brilliant on the show.

• 41:44Speaker 00

  Thank you so much. I really appreciate it and chat next year at some point.

• 41:50Harry Stebbings?

  What a guest, what a show. I want to say huge thank you to Alex for being so open there. If you'd like to see more from us, of course you can on YouTube by searching for 20VC or heading over to 20vc.com. But before we leave you today, the single most important element of any team is their ability to work together in the best and most efficient way. Coda is the dock where teams can work on entire projects from start to finish with everything they need, all in one place. Think about the way your team works today. If all the work is spread across different documents, spreadsheets, and a stack of workflow tools like they are in all of my teams, it's tougher to focus on getting things done, let alone getting them done together. And that's why I realised that I had to have Coda and why you need Coda. Coda is the dock that brings it all together. By putting data in one centralised

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