The Rosenbergs | The Implosion | 3

As the FBI works to identify the spy Harry Gold met with in New Mexico, the net closes in on both the Greenglasses and the Rosenbergs. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lindsay Graham?

  Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. American Scandal uses dramatizations that are based on true events. Some elements, including dialogue, might be invented, but everything is based on historical research. It's May 24, 1950, in New York City. David Greenglass stands in the kitchen of his Lower East Side apartment. He has a newborn daughter in one arm and a bottle of baby formula in the other.

• 0:42Lindsay Graham?

  He sways gently from side to side as he feeds her. But David has more on his mind these days than just his family. A few months ago, British scientist Klaus Fuchs confessed to passing secrets to Soviet intelligence from inside Los Alamos, the same atomic weapons facility where David worked during the war. David never met Fuchs, but he's guilty of a similar crime. Back in 1944, David was recruited as a Soviet spy by his brother-in-law Julius Rosenberg. He then provided diagrams of the inner workings of the atomic bomb to a Soviet courier he knew only as Ben. David stopped spying for the Soviets years ago, and he'd like nothing more than to put it all behind him.

• 1:26Lindsay Graham?

  But his past seems to be catching up with him. Klaus Fuchs has already been found guilty of espionage, and Julius has warned David that the FBI may be closing in on them, too. So as David looks into his baby's eyes and ponders the future, he's startled by a knock on the door. David sets down the bottle and edges the door open with his daughter still in his hands. Julius Rosenberg stands outside, holding up the day's newspaper. Have you seen this? Ruth's taking a nap. Can we talk later? This can't wait. Before David can object, Julius steps inside. He closes the door quickly behind him and thrusts the newspaper at David.

• 2:08Lindsay Graham?

  Headline near the top of the front page reads, "Philadelphia Seized as Spy." Julius jabs a finger at the photograph underneath. You recognize him? David stops rocking the baby because he knows exactly who the pudgy-faced man in the photo is. That's Ben, the courier in Albuquerque. Yeah, his real name is Harry Gold. He met with Fuchs in New Mexico around the same time you were there. This says the feds know he was working with other people, too. David glances at the bedroom door, where his wife is sleeping. Uh, let's talk in the kitchen. David carries his daughter down the hall, reading the rest of the article as he goes. Julius trails after him. We have to leave as soon as possible.

• 2:50Lindsay Graham?

  I can get you and Ruth passports and whatever medical papers you need. The docks here will be watched, so we can't use those. But if we slip into Mexico first, we can take a boat to Europe from there. Julie, I, I can't cross the Atlantic with a newborn. Well, she'll be fine. New York is full of people who came over as babies. How soon are we talking? Within the next few weeks, for sure. But if it gets too hot before then, you and I may just have to go alone. Well, what about Ruth and Ethel and the kids? We'd have to leave them behind. Julius reaches into his pocket and pulls out a thick envelope. He places it on the kitchen table. There's a thousand dollars here from Moscow, and I'll bring you another four later. Five thousand dollars?

• 3:33Lindsay Graham?

  More than enough to start a new life. David reaches out a tentative hand and peels open the envelope. There's a thick wad of bills inside. That's twice my annual salary. You see, David? Our comrades will look after us. We just have to do one more thing for them. We have to make sure the FBI never gets their hands on us. David Greenglass can't imagine his wife Ruth ever agreeing to flee the country. It would mean never seeing their families again and raising their kids in a strange, foreign land. David would prefer to take his chances with the FBI, or if necessary, go into hiding somewhere on American soil. After all, there's a lot he could do with five thousand dollars. But David doesn't say any of that out loud.

• 4:18Lindsay Graham?

  He won't be able to keep the money if Julius knows what he's planning, so David keeps quiet. He takes the envelope of cash and lets Julius think he'll soon be packing his bags for Europe.

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• 6:24Lindsay Graham?

  From Audible Originals, I'm Lindsay Graham, and this is American Scandal. By 1950, Julius Rosenberg had been working for Soviet intelligence for eight years. But his greatest achievement as a spy remained the recruitment of his brother-in-law David Greenglass. During the war, David had worked on the Manhattan Project, and Julius had convinced him to provide the Soviets with detailed sketches of the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki.

• 7:09Lindsay Graham?

  Both men had justified their actions as sharing information that had wrongfully been kept from America's allies. But after World War II, relations between the United States and the Soviet Union had quickly soured. Amid a growing atmosphere of anti-communist paranoia in America, the FBI stepped up its efforts to find Soviet spies. Deciphered messages had already led the Bureau to scientist Klaus Fuchs and courier Harry Gold. Now investigators were wondering where the trail would take them next. This is episode three, "The Implosion." It's June 1, 1950, inside a courthouse in downtown Philadelphia.

• 7:51Lindsay Graham?

  Harry Gold and his lawyer are shown into a cool, dark, wood-paneled conference room. Waiting for them there are two FBI agents. Gold and his lawyer take their seats. By now, this is a familiar scene. Gold has been in custody for the past week, and he's already met with these agents several times. He's been advised that if he shares details of his work as a Soviet spy, he may get a lighter sentence. But it's a long process. Gold worked for Soviet intelligence for a decade, and there is a lot to discuss. At the top of the agenda today is a trip Gold made to New Mexico in June 1945. The agent asks Gold to start from the very beginning. Gold thinks for a moment.

• 8:33Lindsay Graham?

  He remembers that before that trip, he rendezvoused with his Soviet handler, a Russian who called himself John. He instructed Gold to meet with British physicist Klaus Fuchs at a railroad station in Santa Fe. But as Gold tells the agents this, he remembers something else about the conversation with John, something he had forgotten until now. It was not just Fuchs that Gold was instructed to meet. The FBI agents lean forward in their chairs because this is new. They abandon their original line of questioning and immediately ask about this second contact. Gold thinks. John told him to meet with Fuchs first, then take a bus an hour south to Albuquerque. Gold remembers grumbling at this request.

• 9:16Lindsay Graham?

  He didn't want to add more time to his trip, but he still agreed to do as he was asked. John then did something strange. He reached into his briefcase and pulled out a portion of a cardboard Jell-O box that had been cut in half in a zigzag pattern. He explained that this was a security measure. Gold's contact in Albuquerque would have the other half of the box. The FBI agents write down everything Gold says and pepper him with more questions. They want names, descriptions, addresses. Gold closes his eyes and tries to reimagine the scene in Albuquerque. He recalls that he actually met two people. They were a young married couple living in a small apartment. Before he met them, Gold had assumed that the husband would be a top scientist like

• 10:00Lindsay Graham?

  Fuchs, so he was surprised to find that he was just a regular enlisted man, someone who worked with his hands, an engineer, perhaps. The husband gave him a list of names and sketched out a component of the atomic bomb for him, and in return, Gold gave him $500. Gold tries to remember the couple's name. It's on the tip of his tongue, but for the life of him, he just can't place it. So the agents ask what he can recall about the apartment. Gold remembers it was about a half-mile walk from the Hilton he was staying at, and he crossed the train tracks on the way there. The street name escapes him, but it was on a quiet, tree-lined block. The building itself was an ugly, gray, two-story structure with pink windows. The couple lived on the top floor.

• 10:44Lindsay Graham?

  But that's all he can remember. So Gold opens his eyes. He assumes the agents will be disappointed he wasn't able to provide more details, but he's surprised to see the wide grins on their faces. Gold has given them everything they need. Based on his description of the apartment, FBI agents in Albuquerque are soon able to find the right building. The landlord tells them that in 1945, apartment four was occupied by Ruth Green Glass and her husband David, who was a soldier at Los Alamos. Agents then find the Green Glass's account at a local bank in Albuquerque. Records there show that Ruth deposited $400 just a day after Gold claimed he gave them 500 in cash. Since David Green Glass worked on the Manhattan Project,

• 11:28Lindsay Graham?

  the government already has plenty of information on him. They know his age, ethnicity, physical appearance. They have a long list of former employers and family members, and they have extensive records of where he traveled on leave and when. They cross-reference all of this with Harry Gold's evidence and intercepted Soviet cables. Taken together, the FBI determines that David is likely the American asset that Soviet intelligence code-named Kalibra. So on June 5, 1950, David Green Glass is put on round-the-clock surveillance. For the next 10 days, FBI agents trail him as he meets with friends and family. They watch as he picks up groceries from the store,

• 12:08Lindsay Graham?

  and they carefully note down how often he takes his wife Ruth to and from the doctor's office. She's being treated for burns suffered when her nightgown caught fire on her radiator in the Green Glass's apartment. And on June 13, her condition takes a turn for the worse, and she's admitted to the hospital. That leaves David alone to care for their newborn daughter and four-year-old son. By then, the FBI is convinced that David is guilty of spying, but less confident there's enough to make the charge stick in court. The evidence against him is still mostly circumstantial, so they continue to watch and wait. Then, on June 15, FBI agent Leo Frutkin and his partner are assigned to monitor David's movements.

• 12:51Lindsay Graham?

  They watch him leave the apartment around noon and travel to the hospital to visit his wife. After about an hour at her bedside, he then stops by Ruth's parents' house to pick up his two children before heading back to the apartment. It's nothing out of the ordinary. But when Frutkin reports in, he's given new orders. His superiors have decided it's time to put David under more pressure. So Frutkin and his partner grab their things and head up to the Green Glass's apartment. As they climb the stairs, Frutkin reminds his partner that David doesn't have to cooperate. They don't have a warrant, and if they want anything useful, they'll have to get him to invite them in.

• 13:31Lindsay Graham?

  They pause a moment in front of David Green Glass's door. All right, let me do the talking. Once we're in, just stay quiet and look around. Frutkin turns and knocks on the door. After a few moments, David Green Glass answers. Hello, can I help you? Frutkin and his colleague flash their badges.

• 13:49Speaker 04

  Mr. Green Glass, I'm FBI agent Leo Frutkin. Can we come in?

• 13:53Lindsay Graham?

  Uh, what's this about?

• 13:54Speaker 04

  We're investigating some uranium that went missing from Los Alamos after the war.

• 13:59Lindsay Graham?

  A flicker of relief crosses David's face. I spoke with one of your colleagues about that months ago. Uh, we've been asked to follow up. This is mostly routine. A few questions, a quick check of the apartment, and then we can eliminate you from the investigation permanently. Well, I just put my kids down for a nap. It won't take long, and we'll keep our voices down. David thinks for a moment, and then steps aside. All right, if it won't take long. Frutkin and his partner enter the apartment. There are piles of laundry and children's toys scattered over the floor. David starts picking things up. My wife's in the hospital. I'm sorry to hear that. If you consent to a quick search of the property, we can get right out of your way. We don't even have to look in your kids' room. Would that be okay?

• 14:44Lindsay Graham?

  Well, you're not gonna find anything, but... Fine, if this gets me off the list. Good, great. Frutkin reaches into his suit pocket and pulls out a consent form. This will allow the FBI to search the home and take anything relevant to the investigation. I just need your signature on this. David signs the paper on a nearby table. Frutkin takes it, folds it, and puts it in his jacket pocket, and then gets down to business. All right, my partner will look around the living room, and why don't you show me to the bedroom? Yeah, sure. It's just down here. The bedroom is small, with an armoire and dresser tucked in tight around the bed. Frutkin goes to the nightstand first. He immediately spots something interesting: an old registration card for the International Workers' Order.

• 15:28Lindsay Graham?

  Uh, this group has communist ties, you know that? We just signed up for the health insurance. You know how it is. We weren't going to meetings or anything. No, I don't remember seeing it on your file. Well, I left before I even joined the Army, so I didn't think to bring it up. Frutkin pockets the card, closes the nightstand drawer. As he looks around the room again, he sees a photo of David and Ruth on the dresser. Uh, this must be your wife? Yeah, that's me and Ruth during the war. When you were at Los Alamos? Yeah. Well, that's a good picture. That's when a realization hits Frutkin. This photo shows the Green Glasses around the time Harry Gold met them. If it could be shown to Gold, he could positively identify them. Frutkin picks up the photo. You have any others of you from back then? You know, I'm not sure I do.

• 16:13Lindsay Graham?

  They didn't exactly want us carrying cameras around the base, you know? Well, then, I'm afraid I'm gonna need to take this one. There's no photograph of you from those days in your file, and we need one. To help eliminate me from the investigation? Yeah, that's right. It's a nice photo of us. Well, we'll look after it, and you'll get it back, of course. I'll tell you what, I'll run it straight down to the car, make sure it doesn't get misplaced while we're looking around. How does that sound?

• 16:40Lindsay Graham?

  With a framed photograph in his pocket, Agent Frutkin heads down to the street below. But he doesn't leave the photo in his car. Instead, he hands it off to another agent with instructions to get the picture to Harry Gold in Philadelphia right away. Frutkin then heads back inside to continue the search. After a few hours in the apartment, Frutkin explains he has just a few more questions for David and suggests they all head down to the FBI office to finish up. David agrees, and after confirming his mother can look after the children, he hops in a car with Frutkin for the short ride across Lower Manhattan. David is taken to the 29th floor of the courthouse building and sat down with four FBI agents. It's an intimidating scene, but David still feels relatively calm.

• 17:24Lindsay Graham?

  So far, the agents have been nothing but polite and friendly with him, and there's been no mention of espionage, the Soviets, or his communist past. And even if they do start asking tougher questions, David is confident he'll be able to get through them unscathed. He'll just play dumb and deny everything. At around 9:00 PM, another FBI agent arrives with dinner for David. He hasn't eaten since before noon, so he tears right into the pair of hamburgers from a deli around the corner. While he eats, Frutkin excuses himself to take a phone call. David is just biting into the second burger when Frutkin returns with a more serious look on his face. He asks if David has ever met a man named Harry Gold. David thinks through his response as he finishes chewing,

• 18:09Lindsay Graham?

  and confidently replies that he's read about Gold in the newspapers, but that's it. The report said Gold was from Philadelphia, so there was no reason they would ever have crossed paths. But then Frutkin leans over the table and lets David in on a secret. Earlier this afternoon, Frutkin handed off the photo of David and Ruth in New Mexico to another agent who drove it to Philadelphia. While David was eating, Frutkin got some news. The photo has been shown to Harry Gold, and he's identified David and Ruth as the couple he met with in Albuquerque in 1945. David suddenly feels sick and wishes he hadn't scarfed down those burgers. Quickly, he thinks through his options. He could claim that Gold is lying, or it's a case of mistaken identity.

• 18:53Lindsay Graham?

  It's certainly what Julius would tell him to do. But David is not the only one in danger now. His wife Ruth is implicated too. If she goes down with him, then their two children would be left parentless. David wants to stick with Julius, but his immediate family has to come first. So David confesses. He admits that he met with Gold in 1945 and says that he's willing to fully cooperate. But first, he wants to make one thing clear: his wife was just an innocent bystander. If he's going to answer any more of the agent's questions, he wants to make sure that Ruth will stay out of jail.

• 19:32Speaker 04

  On January 24, 2023, in Duxbury, Massachusetts, Patrick Clancy called 911. He had found his wife Lindsay badly injured and his three children dead and dying. What followed would become one of the most searing and complicated cases in recent memory, raising hard questions about motherhood, mental illness, and how far our justice system will go to understand what really happened. I'm Candace DeLong, host of the podcast Killer Psyche. In our latest episode, we take you inside the case of Lindsay Clancy, the postpartum psychosis defense, the courtroom battle, and the trial that just ended in a stunning mistrial.

• 20:16Speaker 04

  Follow Killer Psyche wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of Killer Psyche one week early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 20:33Speaker 05

  Inside a dive bar kitchen in upstate New York, the owner cracks open a box and discovers her chicken order missedelivered. All she has to work with are wings. So with a little culinary genius and a dash of luck, the Buffalo Wing is born. Well, so the story goes, that game day staple has humble origins, but its popularity gave rise to two empires: Buffalo Wild Wings and Wingstop. Hey, I'm David Brown, the host of the podcast Business Wars. Every season, we bring you the true stories behind the companies that shape our world: their rivalries, their reinventions, and their spectacular rises and falls. Buffalo Wild Wings built a sports bar empire. Wingstop went the opposite direction, focusing on getting wings out the door. For years, Buffalo Wild Wings was the undisputed king. But when Americans started ordering in instead of going out,

• 21:18Speaker 05

  Wingstop was ready to tear down its rival. Make sure to follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 21:43Lindsay Graham?

  David Greenglass's confession to the FBI takes hours. But David isn't entirely honest with the men interviewing him. He's promised his full cooperation, but he thinks he can outsmart investigators and protect his wife from prosecution. He's so confident in his abilities that he doesn't even request a lawyer. Under questioning, he tells the agents he didn't know he was working on the atomic bomb until late 1944, just eight months before he was dropped on Japan. In reality, he knew much sooner. David also says he can't remember how he came into possession of the torn Jell-O box used in his meeting with Harry Gold, and he claims that his wife was out of the room during that encounter. Both of those statements are also lies.

• 22:27Lindsay Graham?

  But David is mostly truthful about one thing: how the scheme began. David explains that his brother-in-law Julius Rosenberg first approached his wife Ruth in New York, and she then pitched the idea to David on a trip to New Mexico. Then, when the interview finally wraps after 1:00 a.m., David is placed under arrest and given one phone call. He dials a male relative and asks him to tell Ruth he's in custody but not to worry. Then David spends the night on a cot in the FBI office. Around 8:00 a.m. the following morning, Julius Rosenberg is at home in Knickerbocker Village when two FBI agents come knocking. At this point Julius is unaware of David's arrest, but he's not surprised to see the agents. He suspected this day would come eventually.

• 23:11Lindsay Graham?

  So he remains calm and agrees to accompany the men to an FBI office to answer their questions. And there, as Julius takes a seat, the FBI agents reveal that they've talked with his former employer, the Army Signal Corps. They've learned about the investigation into Julius and his wife Ethel over their suspected ties to communism. Julius confidently brushes off the issue, saying it was all just a big misunderstanding. He explains that he did previously belong to a communist-affiliated labor union, but that was a decade ago. Julius then looks the agents in the eye and swears that he and his wife are not communists and never have been. Julius hopes that will satisfy the men, but they remain stone-faced.

• 23:53Lindsay Graham?

  The agents then ask if he ever talked to his brother-in-law David Greenglass about atomic weapons during the war. Julius lies and says he barely saw David back then. He has only the vaguest idea that they were working on something secret in New Mexico. He insists he only learned about the nuclear program after the first bomb was dropped, just like everyone else. But from there, the agents' questions only get more pointed. They ask if Julius ever approached Ruth Greenglass about recruiting David as a spy, or if he arranged for a courier to meet with the Greenglasses in New Mexico. Julius tries to remain calm, but inside, he's fuming. The only way the FBI could know all of this is if David told them, and just days ago,

• 24:36Lindsay Graham?

  David promised he would play dumb and admit to nothing. Julius won't give in easily, though. Instead, he takes the rage he's feeling toward David and uses it to fuel a passionate defense. He unequivocally denies any involvement with espionage, and then he loudly demands that David be brought into the room to make his accusations to Julius's face. The agents explain that that's not gonna happen. Instead, they ask if they have permission to search the Rosenbergs' apartment. After all, if Julius is as innocent as he says he is, they'll find nothing incriminating. Julius denies the request, and then he refuses to answer any more questions until he can talk to a lawyer. The agents allow Julius to use the phone in the room.

• 25:19Lindsay Graham?

  The lawyer's first question to Julius is whether he's under arrest, and Julius turns to the FBI men. They say he's not, so the lawyer tells Julius not to answer any more of their questions and to leave the office immediately. Minutes later, Julius is on his way home. But while Julius Rosenberg is free to go, David Greenglass remains in custody. The same day Julius is interviewed by the FBI, David is arraigned, with bail set at $100,000. Afterward, he's moved to a nearby detention facility, where he finally meets with a lawyer for the very first time. In speaking with him, David boasts about the game he's played with the FBI. He thinks he's been smart, but the lawyer chastises him.

• 26:01Lindsay Graham?

  He and Ruth are in a lot more trouble than David seems to realize. A few days later, David's family meets with the attorney John Rogge to discuss the situation. Ruth has now been released from the hospital and is well enough to attend this meeting, along with half a dozen members of the Greenglasses' extended family. Rogge's first question to them is whether they'll be able to post David's bail or pay his legal fees. Certainly, none of them have enough to put up the enormous bail. But Ruth's brother-in-law Louis Abel does offer to pay the lawyers. What Abel doesn't reveal is the source of the money. Just before David was arrested, he gave Abel $4,000 to hide away. This was the money Julius had passed on from the Soviets to fund David's escape.

• 26:45Lindsay Graham?

  So although no one in the room knows it, the Greenglasses' defense will essentially be funded by the Soviet Intelligence Service. With that matter settled, Rogge moves on to the wider legal strategy. He suggests that David and Ruth's best chance is cooperating fully, with no more games and no more deception. If that means throwing Julius to the wolves, then so be it. It's an agonizing conversation for the Greenglasses. Many of them know Julius well. He's a member of their family through marriage, after all. But eventually Ruth and the rest of them come to a consensus. If they have to pick between saving David or protecting Julius, then the choice is clear. So after the meeting wraps, Rogge reaches out to prosecutors and tells them that David

• 27:28Lindsay Graham?

  is willing to cooperate if they show leniency to him and Ruth. Two weeks later, on July 6th, David is indicted by a federal grand jury for passing atomic secrets to Harry Gold in New Mexico. Although Ruth has been implicated, prosecutors don't seek an indictment against her. Their strategy is to go easy on Ruth so they can maintain a positive relationship with both her and David. The Greenglasses keep their side of the bargain, too. They speak voluntarily with prosecutors and provide more details about their meeting with Harry Gold and Julius's involvement in arranging it. As for them, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg remain free for now. But they don't know what the Greenglasses are up to, and they're increasingly nervous

• 28:11Lindsay Graham?

  about what the couple may be telling authorities. So the Rosenbergs decide to reach out to Ruth directly. Since the two women have always been close, it's agreed it should be Ethel who pays Ruth a visit. On one early afternoon in mid-July, Ethel arrives at the Greenglasses' apartment unannounced. She has a freshly-made apple pie and a toy truck for the Greenglasses' four-year-old son. But when Ruth answers the door, Ethel can sense her coldness immediately. She forces a bright smile, hands over her gifts, and then suggests they take a walk around the block.

• 28:47Lindsay Graham?

  We haven't really talked since you got out of the hospital. How are you? You look well. I'm doing a little better, physically at least. Well, I hope Stevie likes his new truck. My boys, they're obsessed with anything that has wheels, you know? Ruth doesn't reply, so gently Ethel tries again. I know your son must be going through a lot. He thinks David is out of town on a work trip. Well, I won't say anything, of course. David ends up in prison, though. I'll have to tell him the truth. Julius has just been beside himself. He keeps saying, "I should've come sooner." To check on me? Or to find out what David told the FBI? Well, that's not why I came. No? Then why are you here, Ethel? A man passes them on the sidewalk, carrying a folded newspaper beneath his arm. Ethel smiles blandly.

• 29:32Lindsay Graham?

  Once he's out of earshot, she finally drops her pretense. You know Julius has already been picked up. But he didn't say anything. And our lawyer says that if all four of us just refuse to answer questions, then the government won't have much of a case against anyone, including David. It'll be Harry Gold's word against ours. Gold identified David and me from a photograph, and they found the money he gave us in a bank account. They're not gonna let David go. I'm not saying he walks free. Maybe there's a sentence, a few years. But if he talks... A few years? Is that all? Stevie is four. He asks where his father is every morning. The baby won't even know him. Well, please, don't think I don't care about David. I'm just trying to stop him from making a big mistake.

• 30:15Lindsay Graham?

  You're just here to save Julius, and this whole nightmare is his fault. Don't say that. It's true, though. Ruth, you know I love David. He's my little brother. But Julius didn't force him to do anything, or you for that matter. Ruth's face flushes with cold fury. She looks along the street, and they're nearly back at the Greenglasses' building. I need to get Stevie's dinner ready. Ethel grabs her arm. Can you please just tell David what I said? Ruth shakes her off. Thank you for the pie. Julius and I haven't told him anything. His best chance is to do the same.

• 30:52Lindsay Graham?

  As Ethel Rosenberg watches Ruth Greenglass walk away, she knows her mission today has failed. Still, David's testimony is all that really matters, and until he takes the stand in court, Ethel will hold out hope that her brother will come to his senses, and maybe then they can avoid a civil war between the two families, a war that could destroy them all.

• 31:17Lindsay Graham?

  On January 1st, 1892, a young Irish immigrant named Annie Moore became the first person processed at the new immigration station on Ellis Island. For the millions who followed her, this small island in New York Harbor would become the place where their American dream would either begin or end. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of the podcast American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series, we trace the history of Ellis Island. For more than three decades, it served as the gateway through which millions of hopeful immigrants entered the United States. But as the nation struggled to decide who belonged, some would find the gate shut to them. Follow American History Tellers wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:01Lindsay Graham?

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American History Tellers early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 32:10Speaker 06

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered, like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back

• 32:55Speaker 06

  to haunt us. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 33:22Lindsay Graham?

  Despite Ethel Rosenberg's pleas, David and Ruth Green Glass continue to cooperate with prosecutors. On July 17th, 1950, both provide written statements identifying Julius Rosenberg as the originator of the atomic espionage scheme and laying out precisely how he recruited them. Ruth also names Ethel as a co-conspirator. David does not. Betraying Julius is one thing, but David cannot bring himself to accuse his own sister. Once the couple's written statements are submitted, things move quickly. Julius is arrested at the Rosenbergs' home and charged with conspiracy to commit espionage. He's taken away to a detention center in Manhattan. Julius is facing decades in prison, and the FBI hopes that this prospect will convince

• 34:07Lindsay Graham?

  him to talk, but Julius stays true to his word and refuses to cooperate. The FBI are left frustrated. The Bureau's long-serving director, J. Edgar Hoover, has made rooting out communists a priority. He's been personally monitoring the espionage cases against Harry Gold, David Green Glass, and Julius Rosenberg, and he wants concrete results. So soon after Julius's arrest, he summons Assistant Director Alan Belmont to his office in the Justice Department to strategize on their approach. Hoover prowls the office back and forth, thinking aloud. Now, the question is Julius Rosenberg. Is he merely Green Glass's contact, or is he running something larger? Larger, I'd say.

• 34:51Lindsay Graham?

  Since Green Glass's arrest in June, half dozen suspected communists have left New York. Morton Sabel was one of them. Belmont glances down at the case files spread out across the gleaming table in front of him. He fishes out a surveillance photograph and passes it to Hoover. Hoover squints at the blurry picture showing a broad-faced young man with dark hair and glasses. This is Sabel? Yeah, engineer. Worked in the defense industry. Rosenberg's old college friend. Men like him are running. It suggests to me that Rosenberg sits closer to the center than Green Glass ever did. And we get Rosenberg to talk. That may be difficult. He already knows the charge and the potential penalty, but that hasn't moved him. Rosenberg wasn't doing it just for the money. Well, don't tell me he's a damn idealist.

• 35:34Lindsay Graham?

  It seems he's a true believer in Soviet Marxism. He's not going to fold like Green Glass did. Well, communist or not, every man has a point at which they'll cry uncle. We just need the right lever. Rosenberg has children, doesn't he? Two boys. The older one is seven. The youngest just turned three. And the wife? What do we have on her? Ethel? Uh, very little, I'm afraid. Green Glass says his sister wasn't involved, and she's only mentioned in passing in the Soviet cables we've deciphered. All we really have is a statement from Ruth Green Glass. She says that Ethel was present when Julius recruited her husband, but that's not enough for a conviction. It may be enough for an arrest, though, and we can take it from there. Now, the prosecutors might say we're reaching. Uh, I'll speak with the Attorney General.

• 36:17Lindsay Graham?

  Once the wife is under indictment, Rosenberg will realize he has more to lose than just his own liberty. Mark my words, he'll come to his senses. For the next three weeks, prosecutors build their case against Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. They call David and Ruth Green Glass to testify under oath before a grand jury. Ruth, again, insists that both the Rosenbergs were involved in the recruitment and planning of the Los Alamos espionage scheme, but David continues to protect his sister, claiming he never once talked to Ethel about spying. Then, on two occasions in early August 1950, Ethel herself is called to testify before the grand jury. In both sessions, she invokes the Fifth Amendment to avoid incriminating herself.

• 37:01Lindsay Graham?

  But after her second appearance on August 11th, she's arrested on the courthouse steps and charged with conspiracy to commit espionage. J. Edgar Hoover has gotten his wish, and now he has the leverage against Julius he was hoping for. Ethel Rosenberg is locked up in a women's detention center with her bail set at $100,000. Her mother and siblings visit her, begging her to cooperate with the investigation for the sake of her two young sons. But although she misses her children desperately and often cries herself to sleep in her cell, Ethel doesn't crack. Just like Julius, she refuses to talk. She will not betray her husband or her comrades. But even without the Rosenbergs' cooperation, the FBI is soon able to track down another

• 37:45Lindsay Graham?

  member of the spy ring. Julius's college friend Morton Sabel is apprehended in Mexico and brought back to New York to face charges alongside the Rosenbergs. Eventually, the trial of all three alleged spies is scheduled to begin in March 1951. In the months that follow, prosecutors continue prodding the Green Glasses for anything they can use against the Rosenbergs. David has little more to tell them. Ruth claims she received a coded letter from Ethel with instructions to meet a courier in New Mexico, but when investigators look through the trove of letters taken from the Green Glasses' home, they don't find it. By late February 1951, the trial is just days away, and the case against Ethel is still thin.

• 38:27Lindsay Graham?

  Prosecutors have failed to leverage her against Julius, and now they face another risk that Ethel could be acquitted entirely. The government has poured enormous time and resources into building this case, and with the impending trial already a public sensation, Ethel walking free would be a humiliating embarrassment for the authorities. Desperate for something, anything they can use against Ethel, prosecutors go back to Ruth Green Glass one last time. They have her walk through the whole story from beginning to end, and finally, they get something new. For the first time, Ruth provides an additional detail about a meeting at the Rosenbergs' home in 1945. Ruth explains that when David handed over his notes on the design of the atomic bomb, his handwriting was found to be almost illegible.

• 39:12Lindsay Graham?

  So Ethel typed the notes up before Julius handed them to the Soviets. If proven in court, this seemingly minor act could change everything. It would constitute a tangible action in which Ethel helped the Soviets steal nuclear secrets. So prosecutors quickly schedule an interview with David Green Glass, hoping he will corroborate his wife's story. So on February 26th, 1951, David takes a seat in a small interrogation room inside a Manhattan courthouse. Seated across from him is Assistant U.S. Attorney James Kielheimer. Over the past months, David has met with prosecutors and the FBI countless times and testified before a grand jury.

• 39:53Lindsay Graham?

  So now, with just a week before the Rosenbergs' trial, he wonders what else they could possibly have to ask him. But David quickly realizes it must be something important. Kielheimer begins by reminding David that his wife is still free at home with their kids, and her remaining free depends on the Green Glasses' full cooperation. David responds with a nod, assuring the prosecutor that he's acutely aware of the situation. Then Kielheimer explains that he recently spoke with Ruth again, and she shared something interesting. Kielheimer summarizes Ruth's story about Ethel typing up David's notes while at the Rosenbergs' apartment in 1945. The prosecutor asks if David remembers seeing the same thing.

• 40:36Lindsay Graham?

  David sits back in his chair as he tries to recall the events of the day. It's certainly possible that someone tidied up his notes. His handwriting is pretty bad. In fact, it's been a regular complaint of his wife since they were first married. But he just can't picture Ethel typing those notes. In fact, as he considers it more, he thinks it was probably Ruth herself who sat at the typewriter that night. But David keeps these thoughts to himself. He knows it's not what Kielheimer wants to hear. But David now faces an impossible dilemma. He's being forced to choose between the two women he loves most. He can either tell the truth, which would mean disappointing the government and leaving his wife open to prosecution, or he can lie and help convict his beloved big sister.

• 41:21Lindsay Graham?

  David can feel the anxiety build throughout his body. He tries to remain calm. In the end, it comes down to a cruel but simple decision about which woman is more important to him. And while, of course, he loves his sister Ethel, Ruth is his wife. Ruth is the one at home with his kids right now. Ruth is the one he must save. So David Green Glass leans forward and tells James Kielheimer what the prosecutor has been waiting for. Yes, he does remember seeing Ethel type those notes, just like his wife said. For the first time in the eight months he's been in detention, David has directly implicated his sister. He's not proud of that fact, but it's something he thinks he can live with. He's only given the prosecution a minor detail after all.

• 42:06Lindsay Graham?

  They probably have lots of other evidence against Ethel by now. David can't possibly imagine that this one little thing will put his sister's life in jeopardy.

• 42:19Lindsay Graham?

  From Audible Originals and Airship, this is episode three of The Rosenberg for American Scandal. In our next episode, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg stand trial for espionage, and the government debates whether they should receive the ultimate punishment. American Scandal is only possible because of listeners like you, so thank you. And don't miss an episode. Be sure to follow American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. And Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, my live show, the history tours I'm arranging, and all sorts of other things, go to historyishuman.com.

• 43:04Lindsay Graham?

  That's historyishuman.com. If you'd like to learn more about The Rosenbergs, we recommend the books The Brother: The Untold Story of the Rosenberg Case by Sam Roberts, and The Rosenberg File by Ronald Radosch and Joyce Milton. This episode contains reenactments and dramatized details. And while in most cases we can't know exactly what was said, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsay Graham, for Airship. This episode is written and researched by Corey Metcalf, senior producer Andy Beckerman, managing producer Emily Burke, fact checking by Alyssa Jung Perry, audio editing by Mohamed Shazib, music by Throm, sound design by Gabriel

• 43:48Lindsay Graham?

  Ghul. Executive producer for Airship is William Simpson. Executive producer for Audible is Jenny Lauer Beckman. Head of creative development at Audible, Kate Navin. Head of Audible Originals North America, Marshall Louis. Chief content officer, Rachel Giatza. Copyright 2026 by Audible Originals LLC. Sound recording copyright 2026 by Audible Originals LLC.

• 44:17Speaker 07

  You stepped out for your morning jog. Except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you.